Volume 4 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 4th. Session VERBATIM REPORT MONDAY, APRIL 14, 1975 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE M. JAMES RUSSELL Number 31

April 14, l<l75 The House met at 11:00 A.M. Mr. Sneaker in the Chair. Tape 1362 (Morning) Pk - 1 ~._ SPEAKER: (STAGG): Gentlemen before commencing today's proceedings it gives me great pleasure to welcome to the galleries nine students from Grade! and XI who attend Mountain Field Central High School in Forteau, Labrador accompanied by their Principal, Mr. Xelvin Small. I trust that vour visit here wtll be interesting and informative and educational. And on behalf of all honourable members I welcome you here. STATEMENTS BY MINISTER MR. __ S~ (STAGG) : The Hon. the Premier . HON. F. D. MOORES (PREMIER): Hr.

Speaker, last week before p;oing to Ottawa I had been asked a question. I said we would report back. On coming back to the House I know the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs answered questions on Friday regarding that particular trip. But I thought this morning I should review for the benefit of the House a few of the things that did happen in Ottawa and try and clear the record as far as the government's position is concerned. First of all there were three items on the agenda - or two items rather - on the agenda at the First Ministers' Conference.

As people know they were oil and gas prices and the state of the economy. As far as Newfoundland and Labrador is concerned, there are three real headings that came out of the Conference, one being oil and gas prices, one being the state of the economy and the position on restraints taken by Mr. Turner, and also the potential for hydro develop~ent in Eastern Canada.

Regarding the first of those items, the oil and gas prices, I m.~ght say at the outset that there was no deal with Alberta as we suggested in ThE:_D_aily News of this morning, but rather this is a position that we have taken for sometime as have other governments. Now, Mr. Speaker, there are benefits to keepinr, the prices of oil and gas down. I do not think anyone denies that. But I would also say at this time that even if we wanted to in Newfoundland we could not with the federal government position and the position of the producing provinces. 4038

Anril 11!, 1975 Tape 1362 (Morning) PK - 2 I think the other thing that should be looked at is that if oil and gas prices are kept do•-m it is in fact just for very short term relief, the benefit of doing that would be accrued. And I mean verv short term, Mr. Speaker.

It does not deal with the situation that they were kept down, because it would be not only unfair to producing provinces - and some people could say~why should we not be unfair to Saskatchewan and Alberta - but I wonder how we would feel in Newfoundland tf, for instance, we could sell our fish to the U.S. at whatever say ) 0. 6r P pound but we were told no, this year you are going to sell half of it to Nova Scotia for $0.30 a pound. I do not think that,or any other resource we have would really be - that would be the fair wav nor the realistic way to do it. ~N HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. ilR.

MOORES: It creates an artificial protection situation, Mr. Speaker. The ~emher for Bell Island says,where did I learn my economics1 Obviously the same place as the federal government and indeed other Canadian provinces. Rut the fact is, S1r, that keeping the price of oil and gas down would create an artificial protection situation. And if the price of oil and gas remained low the demands would become excessive in Canada, and the more expensive alternative sources of energy would have to be found.

Now the fact is, Sir, that oil and gas reserves in Canada, I think, is eight years and these have to be conserved as quickly as possible and as much as possible. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. MOORES: The fact is, Sir, that the - no the taxpayers of Canada. The Opposition have always lived in a dream world, Sir, AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. MOORES: They always went for a short term convenient situation even at what was in fact a terrible cost for the future of this Province in the long term. And if anyone 4039

April 14, 1975. Tape 1363 RH - l wants to deny that, they can look at ERCO and the Upper Churchill Falls and all those other places where the giveaways happened on just short term viewpoints.

There were eight governments in Canada agreed with this position and the three who did not were British Columbia,whose main complaint was the multinational oil companies versus provincial ownership rather than the price; Ontario, which has a unique situation, being the most, certainly, industrialized Province in Canada where they are suffering greatly right now from recession as well as inflation, probably more than any other Province and are very worried, particularly about their economic future in the short term until the present recessionary trends turn the corner, if and when they do.

Nova Scotia took the same position because they are solely dependent on oil, Mr. Speaker, for their creation of electricity. They have no hydro power. They have no nuclear power. They are totally dependent on oil. The great Liberal Governments of Quebec, the Federal Government and P.E.I. took the same stand as Newfoundland. Prince Edward Islan<l even did the same thing. Mr. Speaker, the reason why the prices have to go up - MR. NEARY: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER (Stagg): Order, please! Order, please!

While a minister is making a statement, it is completely uncalled for and it is unpar­ liamentary for any member to be interjecting remarks of this type. It then brings the element of dehatP -fnt-r, a statement and I ask the honourable Member for Bell Island to refrain from these unsolicited comments. PREHIER MOORES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The fact is why do the prices of oil and gas have to go up? The fact is, Sir, that Canada is presently self-sufficient in oil. Things will not carry on that way much longer if exploration an<l badly needed e.~ploration in Canada is not encouraged.

This will not happen if prices are almost double everywhere else in the world. What would happen is we would become in Canada totally dependent on the Mid East as other countries are, 4040

April 14, 1975. Tape 1363 RH - 2 and with the traumatic effects that that has in other parts of the world. This exploration is not just for Saskachewan and Alberta bttt also includes areas like the offshore here in Newfoundland and Labrador.

We have stated in Ottawa and on any other occasion that any increase should not be severe on low income groups and to qualify that, Sir, in the statement I read in Ottawa, I would like to quote from it, "While we strongly believe in the above principles, we recognize that this long run objective cannot be attained immediately without various severe economic and social dislocation. We are particularly concerned about the effects which major price changes would have on an economy already experiencing high unemployment and rampant inflation.

We are also aware of the serious strain which rising energy prices place on the lower income groups in our society. Therefore, while we recognize the need for an upward adjustment in petroleum prices so that the oil producing provinces can begin to receive a more realistic return on their nonrenewable resources, it is vital that the effect of this increase not be passed on in full measure to low income groups. This can only be accomplished hy the Federal Government through the wise use of its monetary and fiscal powers.

We are advocating there- fore that the oil producing Provinces gradually increase the price of their resources to those obtaining internationally and that at the same time a national programme be instituted aimed at lessening the adverse effect on the economy particularly in the have-not parts of Canada." MR. NEARY: Inaudible. PREMIER 1OORES: The fact is, Mr. Speaker, - the Member for Bell Island does not pay any attention to the Chair, but be that as it may, Sir. But when the oil and gas is found off Labrador it will be definition be expensive to produce.

We will need a maximum return if it is to be brought into production because it is not going to be cheap oil and gas to produce, Mr. Speaker. It is critically important to the 404.1

April 14, 1975. Tape 1363 Rll - 3 future of Newfoundland that it be brought into production when it is found in coDD11ercial quantities. The other thing, Sir, is that this does not apply to the petroleum and oil resource. It would also possibly in the future not apply to other natural resources in the Province.

That is , for instance, where - where would that lead Newfoundland, for instance, if Alberta was asked to, or Saskatchewan, asked to sell their resources at half price, where would that ' leave a resource rich Province like Newfoundland, say, with hydro, which is an energy product the same as oil and gas, where when we develop the hydro potential of this Province, we want a fair market value and no more giveaways. The fact is that the same thing could be easily argued the other way. Mr.

MacDonaid ,on television last night iilustrated ve·ry well the need for monies for e:,cploration and also the monies from the taxes on oil and gas are presently being used for such things as the trans­ mission line from the Lower Churchill. 404 2

Tape 1364 (morning) TR-1 These are very important to this Province. No one likes to see increases 1n prices, Sir, but in the case of oil and gas we are presently paying ha]f what the rest of the world is paying. Now, all in all no one wants increases. Rut, I suppose there is no other area in the economy of Canada where nne has to be institutecl over a period of time, not rapidly, more so than oil and pas. Jn the lonp; term of the future of our country and our Province, it is even though not desirable, something that I am afraid will have to he done.

Sir, regarding the hydro discussions in Ottawa, we went into the second day's meeting a wee bit frustrated, if I might say so, on the husi ness of oil and gas being the only subject under discussion when energv really was the matter that we should have been discussing 1·,ecause it is energy of all forms really we are talking about. Now, at that time we said that there is between some 6,000 to 10,000 mep;awatts in Labrador and from 20,000 to 25,000 megawatts in Quebec still undeveloped even after flai e James, that big development in Quebec and after the development of the r.hurchil] River.

The fact is that if you take that energy equivalent in megawatts, hydro megPwatts and convert it into equivalent in b.arre ls of oil per year it works out to 500 million barrels of oil per year. The fact is that we converted tt to that sort of figure so that they c-oul d obviously 1 is ten to what was being said because when you are talking oi.l and gas terminology, everybody seems to Usten more attentively in most of the rest of Canada. The fact is that 500 million barrels of oil per year is what we have in Quebec and ourselves in hydro potential.

This in effect is seventy per cent of Canada's total petroleum consumption today. We presently consume some 700 million barrels of oil per year fn Canada, of an unrenewable resource. The Province has apreed that a study should he done for all potential sites to find out each site's potential and the approximate cost of development at the time that we could bring it on stream,and hopefully as quickly as poss1ble. Now, this study should be done totally differently from the Lower r.hurchill Piver Development. We plan to co-operate imd work .inintly with QuebPc who we have had discussions with and who have been 4043

April 14, 1975 Tape 1364 (morning) rn-2 very co-operative 1if I may say, Mr. Speaker, in this regard regardin g the sites themselves. As the two producing Provinces, we will, top,ether with the federal government do an analysis on all the hydro sites we have in both Provinces. We will also work with the other Eastern Provinces regarding a distribution system for the supply of hydro at the earliest~which all of them so badly require. That includes Ontario and Quebec and the three Maritime Provinces as well as ourselves.

It was suggested at the conference that possibly for such a scheme the federal government would pay the transmission cost for the regional grid, if you like, and the site development would be the responsibility of the producing province and the customers eventually. Recause, I think it is fair to say, Sir, that when we talk about customers, Newfoundland obviously would have recall on whatever power it required.

When we talk about a further 6,000 to 10,000 megawatts in Labrador plus the 1,400 at the Lo~er Churchill plus the 5,000 at the Upper Churchill it wjll be a great many years in the future before we could possibl y use even a large percentage of that power. I think our present rate on the Island is something like 850 megawatts in total. We plan to go ahead, Sir, with the overall development

schedule to maximize the hydro resource potential as quickly as it is feasible. We would like to think that preliminary studies would start this year and no way would they conflict with the development of the Lower Churchill. In other words, Sir, get an information bank of all the rivers we have on the Island and in Labrador, ;is well as Quebec doing their's,so that as far the energy future is concerned in this Province we would have the information at hand, and together with the other governments be able to develop them as rapidly as possible.

In presenting this position at the conference, Sir, we had the support of all the provinces that spoke after us, particularly Ontario, Alberta, Quebec, Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island. Mr. MacDonald was also strong in his support of the principle and as far as the federal government was concerned, it was prepared to grant money in support of same. Equally, Sir, the last subject that came up at that conference was the matter of restraints. That, Sir, could apply, I suppose to the 4044

April 14, 1975 Tape 13~4 (morning) was the matter of restraints. That, Sir, could apply, I suppose, to the cnnference but particularly to the Member for Bell Island. IB-3 But, the fact is, Sir, that Canada so far in the international community has been pretty lucky as far as inflation and recession is concerned. 4045

April 14, l'J75 Tape 1365 (Horning) PK -- 1 The fact is, Sir, that I suppose we have heen lucky more by luck than good management. And something has to be done in Canada, that t-!as put across very forcefully by Mr. Turner. We admire Mr. Turner's objectives and we will co-operate in every way to helo him obtain thf'm. But for the Opnosition or anyone else, Sir, to think that the people of Newfoundland or the peonle of Canada are facing an easy year would be absolutelv wrong.

And not to face the realities of the present international situation regardinp.: recession and :1.nflation ~,ould be not iust wrong hut very, very dangerous. I would sugp;est, Sir, to the Opposition or to anyone else that responsibility is the key word when we are talking about the seriousness of restraints. Mr. Turner will he makinp; his position public,I would assume,on the latter part of May when he gives his new budget.

But until such time, Sir, as that can be analyzed and properly looked at I think it would be terribly wronp, to try to make cheap pol:1.tical points at the exnense of the economy of Canada, the Canadian people and the -people of Ne,,,foundland. &~ HON. MEMBER: Hear: Hear! HR. SPEAKER (STAGG): The Hon. Leader of the Opposition. H0M. E. H. ROBERTS: (LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION): Thank you, Mr. Speal<er. It is most unfortunate, Sir, that the Premier chooseR to hide behind the rules of the House in making a debating statement when I am not allowed to dehate it in reply. AN )!ON. ME'.-IRF:R:.

Inaudible. ~- ROBERTS: I cannot debate it in reply and so I shall not 1 but let it be noted that the Premier does not have the courage to bring the matter before the House for dehate, Now, Sir, his statement,which he said would clarify the Province's position, if anything, has made it worse. Tl,ere is only one issue which should he looked at by the Government of this Province when they go to Ottapa or anywhere else to speak for the people of this Province and that is this, what is best for the people of Newfoundland, w"hat will best serve their interests.

The fact remains that despite all of the words used by the Premier and all the figures he threw ahout and all the talk he used, Sir, the nosition taken by the Government of thjs Province in Ottawa last wee!-: was the wronri position for the peonle of thi.s Province. 4046 _ ..

Anril 114, 1975 Tape 1365 (Morning) PK - 2 AN HON. HF.HBER: Hear! Hear! MR. ROBERTS: In an age of increasing costs there is no way in which the Government of this Province should be supporting or doing anything but oonosing a proposal to increase the price of oil. If the Premier wishes to talk about realities tnen I say to him, Sir, that is tbe realitv in the minds of our people today. There are used in Newfoundland, I am told,about 500 million of gallons of oil and oil products a year. A i;tix cent a gallon increase will cost the people of this Province $30 million.

A ten cent a gallon increase would cost the people of this Province $50 million. And if we take roughly, that is roughly $100 per person in Newfoundland. We do not need that extra cost, Sir. The peonle of Newfoundland are now faced with the rising cost of living. They are now trying to cope with the situation caused by the fact that in three years in office the do-nothing Tory Government have yet to create any jobs - HR. SPEAKER (STAGG): Order, please! The Leader of the Opposition's general comments are on the borderline between debate and comment, if there is such a borderline.

But his last comments are completely out of order, are provocative and I will ask him to refrain from using similar remarks. Thank you,Your Honour. And I shall, of course, try to do so. But as I have said it is not Your Honour's doing but it is a weakness in the procedure of the House that the Premier can be as provocative as he wants and that the Opposition are not allowed to reply. Sir, the Premier misrepresented the positions of several other provinces. He did not deal with the points that had been raised, substantive points of criticism against this Province's position.

He talked of low income groups and made some platitudes about it, but put forward no proposals as to how it should be cushioned, the effect of a price increase. He talked ahout the fact that increasing costs somehow will reduce consumption. And I would ask the Premier or anybody else,how a person ~,ho heats his home by oil is going to be able to reduce consumption. Our people now, Sir, are consuming the least they can. There is nobody 4047

April 14, 1'175 Tape 1365 (Morning) PK-3 voluntarily in Newfoundland using more oil than he has to to keep his house fit to live in, not the way costs are. 4048

April 14, 1975 Tape No. 1366 NM - 1 What then are we going to do? Are we going to reduce the heat in our homes even further? Sir, it is a foolish position and it is an evil position and it is a fraudulent position because it is one that does not serve the people of Newfoundland. MR. SPEAKER (STAGG): Order, please! Order, please! I think the honourable Leader of the Opposition has indeed begun to debate this matter and some of his remarks are, if not unparliamentary, they are very close to it. They probably are unparliamentary, however I am not prepared to rule on them at this time.

I believe that the short period of time devoted to this comment has expired. MR. ROBERTS: Has Your Honour ruled I cannot go on? MR. SPEAKER (STAGG)t You may go on for a short period of time. MR. ROBERTS: I thank Your Honour. MR. SPEAKER (STAGG): You cannot have a full scale debate. MR. ROBERTS: Well I ·realize that Your Honour and I very much regret it indeed. It is pointless to go on in the face of this but let me just conclude by saying simply a question to the Premier, is the Premier prepared to allow debate this day on this issue in this House? We have not been allowed to debate it.

The Premier obviously feels confident in his position, will he put it to the test this day in this House? We stand ready to debate it now. MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, the estimates of Mines and Energy will be coming before this House this week and I would suggest that that is the correct place to debate it. PETITIONS: MR. SPEAKER (STAGG): The honourable the Mini~ter of Forestry and Agriculture. HON. H. COLLINS, MINISTER OF FORESTRY AND AGRICULTURE: Mr. Speaker, I have a petition which I have received from approximately 170 residents of the Town of Gander who are occupying C.M.H.C., D,O.T. owned housing units.

The houses are owned by C.M.H.C., were buil~ by C.M.H.C. about fifteen, sixteen years ago, were turned over to the Ministrv of Transport who rented the houses to their employees. A number of years ago some of the units were sold. However, 4049

April 14, 1975 Tape No. 1366 NM - 2 there were approximately 170 left to be rented to various tenants and during the past month or six weeks the federal agency, C.M.H.C. 7 have decided again to sell the remainder of the houses. I understand that the federal agency again have an appraisal done of the various properties and the prices which they have, the price tags which they have put on those houses ranges from $24,800 to $34,000, dependent upon the size of the unit involved. The tenants who occupy those houses would very much like to buy them. They find that in a great many cases they cannot afford to buy them.

On the other hand maybe the greatest objection they have is the fact that after paying rent to C.M.H.C., to D.O.T. really and back to C.M.H.C., after paying those rents for a period of fifteen or sixteen years, those people feel that they should be given some recognition in terms of building up an equity in the unit and this is a very valid argument in my opinion, and a very valid argument in the opinions of all of the tenants of the housing units. The prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker, is rather long. I will mention some of the more important issues which they raise.

Those people say we consider the prices much too high for the following reasons: these houses are all approximately twenty years old. Now when they say twenty years old, they know more about it than I do but I thought they would have been about seventeen or eighteen, but they say twenty. They say that they are insulated to a standard that satisfied the price of energy in that era. They now need to be re-insulated to Fatisfy a standard in accordance with today's energy crisis. Number two, the furnaces in a lot of these homes will have to be replaced in the near future.

Number three,the hot water and oil tanks are reaching a critical age level and might have to be replaced shortly. Bathrooms fixtures and faucets in many cases are due for replacement. A lot of the homes are showing the scars of large families and little maintenance in the last few years, because proper maintenance procedures were not followed apparently by the landlord. Mildew farms on the walls of many homes. A lot of basements have cracks that have only been temporarily repaired and need extensive work done on them. 4050

April 14, 1975 Tape 1367 (morning) IB-1 The windows will have to be replaced in nearly all of the units for comfort and satisfaction over the years with the varied elements that one encounters in this Province. Extensive work is required on the landscaping of the majority of the homes. The inner design of these homes is not built to accommodate today's type of kitchen or bedroom furniture. Hence a major expense is necessary if one is to desi!!:'l the houses to accommodate a moderate size family. is well below today's standards.

The wiring in the houses We have been told that these houses are now a burden as far as CMHC is concerned due to maintenance costs. How do they expect us to maintain them and pay a mortgage as well? Then in parenthesis here they say that a spokesman for CMHC in a news release last winter on the local hroadcast station said they were beginning to be a liability and needed extensive repairs. In Gander we have a sizeable

section of retired people on fixed income in these units. How can they possible buy one of them on a salary of $3,000 or $4,000 a year? We believe that some local politicians - I am not sure what they mean here - we believe that some local politicians have a vested interest in the price of these houses for purely personal reasons. I do not know what they are saying, what they mean hy that. But, I have heard that there have been some allegations that somebody might have thought that the prices would have to be kept up to keep the property tax rates up, and that is not true, of course.

We feel the prices of these houses were deliberately assessed high to protect the local market. The truth of the matter is that all people in these houses are only looking for homes at a fair rate - MR. SPEAKER (STAGG): Order, please! Some of the matters in this Fetition that the honourable member is presenting would appear to violate

section 90 of the Stan, 1ing Orders, that it should not contain impertinent or improper matter. Some of the allegations as read out by the honourable member appear to the Chair to be rather serious ones. I suggest that the honourable member might peruse the petition fnr matters that are of provocative nature. MR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, what I have been trying to do is to tell this 4051

April 14, 1Q75 Tape 1367 (mornjng) I!l-2 House exactly what the tenants of those houses have heen telling me to tell to the House. They say that the ma.ior:lty of the houses do not have any din:lng rooms. In 1967 - this is interesting, Mr. Speaker - in 1967 the same houses were offered hy CMHC for $11,noo and they question now why the increase to $34 ,nnn in view of the fact that CMHC is a federal agency set up to provide housing to middle income and low income groups and not be :Involved in terms of the profit mot:lve. At any rate, Mr.

Speaker, what ve are saying here is that the tenants :1.n those houses in Gander feel that they are being r:lrped off 1 if you want to,in terms of r.MHC charging what is about lSn rer cent more than the houses cost in years gone by. Of course, when we think about that we also have to consider the depreciation in terms of some of the items which I mentioned earlier where the houses have not been properly maintained. Mr.

Speaker, I would ask that the petition be tabled and since it is a federal matter, J suppose, we can refer it to my colleague, the Min:lster of Municipal Affairs who I am sure w:111 take it upon himself to have it referred to the appropriate federal authority. MR. SPEAKER (STAGG): The Member for Bonavista North. MP. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I rise on this side of the House on behalf of my colleagues in support of the petition presented by the "emher for Gander on behalf of some 170 people who are residents of Gander. Mr.

Speaker, I am quite sure this honourable House is aware that these homes were ),uilt between sixteen and twenty years ago, and the construction of these homes at that time would certainly not meet w:I th the criteria of the construction trade today. Many of these homes, if they are the homes that I think they are, like the ones up on Bowes Street and the area, they are very small homes w:I th a story and a half, Prssibly some of the ones on Edinburgh are up for sale also. Mr.

Speaker, if one considers the rent that was paid in these homes over a period of between sixteen and twenty years, one will find that these homes have been paid for already at least twice by the present occupants, or :If not the present occupants, the previous occupants. 405i

/\pri l 11, 1 q7,; Tape 1367-(morning) IB-3 So, we on this side of the House fail to see why such a large amount is heing asked for these homes at the present time. We believe that the amounts should be substantially reduced. These homes are small homes. They are on very small lots, sixty by 100, the most of them are. I know that. for a fact because I am willing to bet that J s~t up an instrument on possibly every corner of these lots myself. So, Mr.

Speaker, we on this side of the House support the prayer of this petition and we trust that - I suppose it should go to the Minister of Tntergovernmental Affairs so that he would present it to the federal government and strongly urge that these prices would be substantially re;luced. NOTICES OF MOTION: 405

April 14, 1975 Tape 1368 (Morning) PK - 1 MR. EARLE: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill "An Act To Remove The Legal Restrictions On The Assignment By Her Majesty Of Certain Rights To The Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro-Electric Corporation." MR. SPEAKER (STAGG): Are there any other notices of motion? ANSWERS TO 'QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS IlEEN GIVEN MR. SPEAKER (STAGG): The Hon. Minister of Manpower and Industrial rrelations. HON. E. MAYNARD (MINISTER OF MANPOlffiR · AND INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS): Mr.

Speaker, I have the answer to one question,No. 34 on the Order Paper of Anril 1, 1975 asked by the Hon. Member for Bell Island. The question was: What is the number of industrial accidents re,-,orted that have occurred since March 31, 1974 as of the current date? The answer is that there were 14,572 industrial accidents reported to the Workmen's Compensation Board for the period the 31st. of Narch 1974 to April 1, 1975. AN HON. ME11BER: Inaudible. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER (STAGG): The Hon. Member for Bell Island. !·IR. S. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the information that the Hon. the Premier gave the House this morning about the government's position at the recent Energy Conference, would the Premier care to tell the House if the adjustment in this year's equalization payments to Newfoundland as a result of the tax on Western oil, if that adjustment, the increase will be passed on to the consumers in Newfoundland as was originally intended by the Government of Canada? MR. MOORES: Mr.

Speaker,when we see what the equalization payment is we will certainly pass on the full benefits of any equalization payment we get to the people of this Province. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Will it be used to subsidize the price of heating fuel and gasoline? Or will it be passed on indirectly in some other way? MR. MOORES: It will be used in such a manner to give the most benefit to the people of the Province, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (STAGG): The Hember for Bell Island. 4054

April 14, 1975 Tape 1368 (Morning) PK - 2 MR. NF.ARY: Mr. Speaker, evasive and general. Would the Premier -- ~ ---- care to tell the House if Eastern Provincial Airways approached his government as well as the Government of Nova Scotia with a proposal to consolidate their operation on the Mainland and build a hanger in llalifax? And if so, why did the Provincial Government not take the same initiative as the Government of Nova Scotia in this matter? lffi.. ~lOORES: Mr.

Speaker, we were approached by Eastern Provincial Airways to assist them in approaching the federal government and others reP,ardinr, the establishment of a major overhaul facility in Gander. Certainly we did all in our power and are doing to try and encourage that aoproach. We were not approached, Sir, as far as the personnel located in noncton and Halifax of E.P.A. were concerned and where they were locating then. MR. ROBERTS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Did the Premier say that the government were not approached at all with respect to this decision by E.P.A. to - no, I will put it as a question because the Premier, I think, used some words very loos:ely, and I want to give him the opportunity to state specifically what the position was. Perhaps he could tell us whether there were any approaches made from E.P.A. with respect to their decision to build at Halifax a large training centre and a base for their flight personnel? MR. MOORES: I would not say we were approached, Mr. Speaker.

I suppose one could say we were advised that this was being done for the simple reason that the staff of E.P.A. in Montreal and l"l.oncton,and in Gander to a lesser degree~being at both ends of the system , they felt that the majoritv of their personnel should be at Halifax. We were advised of that. But also I would like to reiterate the emphasis being placed on Gander ,,as certainly no job reduction.

As a matter of fact 1:,,ith the repair facility that we are talking about for Gander and the service facility we are talking about for the aircraft,it seemed to me to make inimitable sense that this sort of development for Gander was what was requi reel it is what Gander does wel 1. And E. P .

A) s internal decisions as to ,Jlierr. thev place their personnel,unfortunately if they are out of thiis Province we cannot say that we want the people from New Brunswick to come to Newfoundland, I wish we could. The fact is that they told us 4055

Anri.l 14 , l ~75 Tape 1368 (Momin,!) }'I{ - 3 that thl:!Y were domg this. We ·said, we ldsh the;y were hl;\re. They said it was iJll!'Oss!ble to bring them here. But in the meantillle the Gander devel01llllent as a service ai-ea, for t.P.Ji. was going to be expanded. !!!•, ROBmt!§: Mr. Speaker, a further supi,lement:ary. And I thank the Premier. Could he tell us please what efforts the government made to persuade E.P .A. to base these flight i,ersonnel at Gander? 4056

April 14, 1975 MR. MOORES: Tape No. 1369 NM -1 Other than through - we asked them to locate in Newfoundland Mr. Speaker, in the form of a request,and _this request was turned down,if you like, on the basis of explaining why they had to be located in Halifax and also I might say, the demand for having the repair facilities in Moncton and Montreal was equally,I underetand, turned down in other Provinces because of the desire to have it at Gander. MR. ROHER'IS: Mr.

Speaker, a further supplementary; is it fair to say then that the Premier and the government accepted E.P.A.'s reasons for moving this from Moncton and other places, Montreal,and into Halifax? MR. MOORES: We accepted their reasons as to why they did not move them to Newfoundland. It is not our business, Mr. Speaker, for a private company to tell them where or where not to move. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary; would the Premier tell the House if there was any correspondence back and forth between E.P.A. and the government on this matter and if so, is the Premier prepared to table the correspondence in the House? MR. MOORES: I will check and find out, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have another question for the honourable the Premier. Would the honourable the Premier care to tell the House if the government is accepting applications for the position of Ombudsman? MR. MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, as was announced in the Throne Speech I guess it was, we will be bringing in legielation and the name of the Ombudsman during this session. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker; would the Premier care to indicate whether the Ombudsman will be a former Member of Parliament from Newfoundland, a P.C. Member of Parliament? MR. MOORES: At the appropriate time the gentleman I s name will be announced, Mr. Speaker. The Member from Bell Island need not apply if that is what he is interested in, Sir. 4057

April 14, 1975 Tape No. 1369 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: Mr, Speaker, I have another very delicate question for the honourable the Premier. In view of the fact that advertisements in the newspapers are being interpreted as meaning that Come-By-Chance is now almost on the brink of going ahead, all the obstacles have been removed, would the Premier care to tell the House if this is so and when construction on expansion of the oil refinery will actually get underway7 MR. MOORES: I was not aware of the advertisements, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Well then a supplementary, Sir.

Would the honourable the Premier care to tell the House if the difficulties have been removed and that the expansion to the Come-By-Chance Oil Refinery will be going ahead, when it will start, when actual construction will get underway and when men will be hired on the site? Would the honourable Premier care to tell the House? MR. SPEAKER: The Minister of Industrial Development. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, it has been indicated by me and by others in this House on several occasions recently that the difficulties have not been overcome, The Shaheen people are still negotiating in Ottawa.

The export permit situation, the long term contract situation is, to the best of my knowledge, as it was during the past several months. They have not resolved that difficulty. E.C.G.D. will not advance the financing until this difficulty is removed. We hope that it will be done shortly. We are not in a position to say when because we do not have control the National Energy Board, nor over the Federal Department of Mines and Energy. MR. ROBERTS: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker, to the minister.

Is he telling the House, Sir, that the only barrier standing between Newfoundland and this expansion of the refinery is the National Energy Board and the Department of Energy, Mines and Resources in Ottawa , that if they would agree to whatever it is they are being asked to agree to, things would go ahead? MR. DOODY: To the best of my knowledge that is so, Sir. I cannot say if it is the only reason, if it is the only obstacle.

It is certainly the major obstacle and tt is the one that we are acquainted with and the one that we are familiar with and the one that we have been working on, if there are other obstacles they have not been made known to us up to now. 4058

April 14, 1975, Tape 1370, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: The honourahle the Member for Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Fisheries. I understand that the herring seiners are creating some problems in Bay D'Espoir, problems for the inshore fishermen,and I believe the minister has had some representation from people at Hermitage concerning this matter. I wonder of the minister would give his department's view of the problem and if there ia some wav to resolve it? !:!_0~._J. C.CROSBIE (Min~ster of Fisheries): Mr.

Speaker, I have not vet received any message from Hermitage although it may be at the Department of Fisheries. I do know from other sources that - I know what thev are objecting about - I believe the herring seiners are now taking herring just outside the ice in the Bay D'Espoir area, and that they are taking quite a hit of herring. That is a matter, of course, that is within the jurisdiction of the federal government as to ~~hat area you can take herring by seines or not take herring by seines. The honourable ~entleman should get in touch with the regional director here also.

But I have not yet heard from them but when I do I shall see what information I can get and I will also have the regional director contact him. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. I have been in touch with the regional director this morning and I am aware of where the jurisdiction lies here. I wonder,though,would the minister indicate what his department's position would be on a proposal to seek a restriction on the Bay D'Espoir area, such as the restriction which now exists in Fortune Bay in terms of the herring seiner . MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, we would have to know exactly what the proposal is and then decide whether or not we agreed with it. I mean, there is a delicate balance to be kept here between the rights of inshore fishermen who fish for herring and those of inshore fishermen who fish on herring seiners. They both have to he ahle to catch fish and it is not an easy matter to decide. One 4059

April 14, 1975, Tape 1370, Page 2 -- apb would need the wisdom of Damocles to - so I would need to see a concrete proposal. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. CROSBIE: Damocles is the one who had the sword, yes. Anyway, you would need a lot of wisdom. Our position has been that the herring stocks in the various bays have to be protected for inshore fishermen, and all the herring not just taken by herring seiners. On the other hand there has to be a decent balance between the two so I would have to see exactly what was being proposed. MR. SIMMONS: Thank you, to the minister.

A question for the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. I heard second-hand this morning a radio report in connection with the Mccallum water situation and I was rather disturbed by the report. Now the minister may have been quoted incorrectly but my question is; has the government or has his department given up on efforts to assist the people of Mccallum in their efforts to get a water supply? HON.A.B.PECKFORD (Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing): No. Mr. Speaker, we have not given up on our efforts in getting a water supply for any community in the Province.

However, the situation in McCallWII is one of the more difficult ones to deal with, to grapple with as is the case with Francois as well, next door to McCallum. ~- NEAR.!_: ___ Rose Blanche. MR. P!_CKFORD: Rose - do you want to go on? Dover and Embree, Main Brook, Conche, Bell Island itself. One could spend all day at that. But anyway, Mr. Speaker, we have not given up on our efforts. What I was trying to paint was a realistic picture of the problems in McCalltD11 in finding a decent water supply.

We are still trying to grapple with it and some of my engineers have been working on it for quite some time to see what can be worked out at a reasonable cost. If you heard the news release this morning, we seem to, perhaps, have some answers for Francois, but we are still working 4060 '

April 14, 1975, Tape 1370, Page 3 -- apb on Mccallum, So it is one down and one to v.o. MR. SIMMONS: - - - ·--- A supplementary for the minister. Is he in a position to say now whether the idea of furt~er drilling has been scratched as a reasonable proposal for McCallum? MR. PECKFORD: I do not know if the idea of drilling has been scrapped.

I think it is a matter of being able to get the right kind of equipment that can travel over difficult typography and apparently that kind of equipment is not easily accessible right here in the Province, But if there is some kind of unit that some contractor has that can be more easily mobile so that we can get into the area, we can nat onlv do places like Mccallum but other places where we are having difficulty in obtaining water, That is the problem of the technology of the thing as it relates to well drilling rigs right now. ~~.§..I~ONS: A further supplementary for the minister.

First I refer him to Waltsons Drilling from which I got a letter this morning on the subject of deep well drilling. A supplementary, he made reference, the minsiter did, to the matter of Francois, Can I assume from his press statement that he has or that his department has made a decision to make available the additional money that is going to be required to facilitate the completion of the Francois water supply this year?

Water system, I ought to say, MR._Pg..!S.FQ.RD: Number one, if the honourable Member for Hermitage has any references for well drilling firms in North America who can assist this government in providing water for the various communities in the Province, I suggest that he inunediately get in touch with the Water Services Division and pass along those gems of wisdom. Number two, on Francois, the department is concocting or preparing a proposal to present to the Water Connnittee of Francois, We will present that to them and wait for their answer to our proposal. 4061

April 14, 1975, Tape 1371, Page 1 -- apb ~~ SPEAKER: The honourable the Member for Labrador North. MR. WOODWARD: ----- - Mr. Speaker, thank you. I have a question for the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. In light of the news this morning, it appears that the strike at Wabush will drag on for a considerable amount of time. I am wondering if he can tell the House if his department is taking any action and is there any end in sight as to when the strike will end? If he would care to comment on the fact that the skilled trades are paid far less in that

section of the Province than they are in the Island

section of the Province today and it is difficult to attract the skilled people to the Labrador sector. RON. ~YNARD (Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations): Mr. Speaker, to answer the last part of the question first, it would be highly inappropriate for me to comment on the waP,es being paid in the Labrador West area for any se~nt of the work force while negotiations are still ongoing between the company and the union, and I have no intention of making a comment on it. Neither should anyone else, I do not think, as that is certainly an internal matter.

As far as the length of the strike is concerned, I am not aware of how long it is going to go on. We have been in contact with both parties. As a matter of fact, last night I talked to officials of both the company and the union. There is no intention at this time of our department getting involved if involved means imposing or trying to impose any settlement on it. Our conciliation officer has been available to the parties since some time in the first of January. He is still available to assist the parties in any way possible if and when they request his services.

That will continue to be the situation for the time being. MR. WOODWARD: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Tourism. I wonder if the minister can tell the House if his department has any plans in conjunction with the federal government 4062

.. Tape 1371 (morning) to develop a national rark in Labrador? IIClN. T. V. llICKEY ("INISTEP OF TOURISM) : thl'lt questioii uncler advisement. Mr. Speaker, I have to take ~ni. SPEAKER ( ~TAGG).: The Membf'r for Labrador South . 'ffi. MARTIN: I have a question, Mr. Speaker, for the honourable the ~fin ister of Mines and Energy. I wonder if his department has any plans to hold meetings on the Southern Coast of Labrador, that is in the Straits nf Bel le Isle

section similar to those which he held in Northern Labrador in order to brief the people there on what they can expect from construction on the tunnel and hydro line. HON. 1. BARRY (\f!NISTER OF "!INES AND ENERGY) : Mr. Speaker, we attempt to go to the areas were we could foresee some immediate developments taking rlace based on the fact that this is the area where the companies are now working, where gas discoveries have been made, say from Cartwright North. Our understancling is that Eastcan itself will be moving further North again this ~ummer rather than South.

It wHl be going to the Northern part of its acreage for this Summer's drilling. B.P. on the other hand is movi.ng further North on its East Coast Newfoundland, South Coast Labrador acreage. So, it should be coming closer to Southern Labrador. Again, B.P. will be operating from either Botwood or a new hase at Cartwright. We do not see any immediate developments taking place to affect the Southern communities along the Coast of Labrador.

But, of course, time permitting and resources, personnel and so on permitting, we w:111 he happy ta go to the communities in the Southern part of Labrador and arrange similar meetings there. We will be happy to get the honourable member's comments as to the most effective way of doing this. MR. MARTIN: I feel I should clarify that, Mr. Spe.aker. The question concerned the construction which is about to get under way on the tunnel and the hydro line. The people in the local area are concerned that their local economies are going to be affected to the same degree as those in the Northern communities.

They were in fact planning on asking the minister to go up there and hold similar meetings. I am wondering if anything has transpired in that respect. 4063

April 14, 1975 Tape 1372 (Morning) "PK·· 1 HON. MEMBERS: Inaudihle. ~- BARRY: I thought similar to the ones that we had recently given on the Coast of Labrador with respect to oil and gas. I thoup;ht that was your reference. Yes, Mr. Speaker, I think that this is a very worthwhile suggest. It is one that we had intended to comply with. Tnitially we believe it is necessary to hold certain meetinp,s in the Goose Bay--Happy Valley area. Conceivably there should be meetings as well on both sides of the Straits.

And this is something I will pass on specifically to the Newfoundland Hydro people and get their sugr,estions as to how we can most effectively meet the needs of the people on the Straits area for information on this project. AN HON. MEMBER; l3oth sides. MR. BARRY: Both sides. MR. SPEAKER (STAGG): The Member for Fogo. CAPT. E. HINSOP..: Mr. Speaker, I want to direct a question to the Hon. Hinister of Fisheries. Jlut I would ask Your Honour if he would bear with me for a few minutes I want to give a little

preamble, a little background so that the minister will be familiar with the problem involved. Last week several longliners of Change Islands blasted their longliners out of the ice. ConseQuently one of the lonrliner operators damar,ed his prop or propellar.

On arriving at Twillingate he tried to get the longliner lifted out at the marine service there, and he was told that how he was refused to get permission to do this until he had the cash to pay for the job or lifting out the boat. 1Jould the mini.ster confirm that that is a regulation pertaining to those service stations that in order to p,et the services availahle that a man should have the monev ready to put on the barrel head so as to speak? "1R. CROSBIE: I cannot confirm it, Mr. Speaker.

It is the first I heard of it, you know, If the honourahle gentleman wants to give me the name of the man in Question I will have it all loof:ed into. There is a charge for having your boat taken out and a storage charge while it is stored. But whether you have to have the cash on the harrel head before or what the rules are. AN HON. 1-lm-IBER: Inaudible. 406~

Apri1 14, 1975 Tape 1372 (Morning) PK - 2 l'l'R, CROSRJE: When we err, Mr. Speaker, we always err on the side of generosity and magnanimity. And if that did not happen in this case there mav he some reason. If the honourable gentleman will r,ive me that man's name I will have it checked into, and in addition, I will find out what the general rule is. 1'-IR. SPF,AKF.R (STAGG): ~IR. H. W. C. GILLE'IT: The Member for Twillingate. Mr.

Speaker, I am wondering if the - a question for the Minister of Fisheries - I am wondering if the Minister of Fisheries inadvertently mentioned the fact ·that there was a storage charge. There is a storage charge. But that is not in effect yet, is it7 AN HON. MEMBER : No. AN HON • ffil'IDER : MR. GILJ,F.TT: AN ) ION. MEMBER: MR. GILLETT: MR • NF.A 11.Y : ."ffi. CROSBIE: Inaudible. Pardon? Inaudible. Tell us what is going on down in your department,boy. Inaudible. Mr.

Speaker, you know, with respect t:o Durrell, I think, it was or Twillingate where hoats were taken up on the marine service centre hefore any charges were set or told what the charges would be specinl arrangements were made for that. There will be a charge for storing a boat and hauling a boat up and so on when these get in to full ooerations. Special arrangements were made at Durrell, I think it was, because the neople involved all had their boats hauled up there before charges were instituted. So that is'what he is referring to. There has heen no change in that, you know. ~m . GILLETT : Mr.

Speaker, this was the Durrell ·service eentre that the honourahle Memher for Fogo was talkin g about. J.fR. CROSEIE: - - ------ l'm . GILLETT: !IR. CROSBIE: CAT.T. 1HNSOR: They charged him for hanlin g the hoat up. Oh, yes. But not for storage. Right. Mr. Sneaker, may I direct another question to the honourable minister. Would he undertake - because this time of the year, of course, the fishermen are very anxious to get their longliners out esoeciallv if they have trouhle in •order to get out sealing - would the mi nister undertake to make sure that these fishermen can get their 4065

April 14, 1975 Tape 1372 (Morninp,) PK - 3 boats out and to make some tentative arrangement for oayment after? MR. CROSBIE: An arrangement for what? CAPT. WIN!'OR: For repairs which might have· to be made. AN HON .• MEMBER: Give him a. bit of credit. MR. NEARY: Give him a bit of credit, yes. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I do not know what the honourable gentleman is asking. 'Is the honourable gentleman wanting _me to go around blasting the longliners out of the ice all over the Island? I mean,what is your questjon? AN HON. MEMBF.R: Inaudible. CAPT. WJNSOR: Mr.

Soeaker, I do not think that the honourable minister is listening attentively. I am sure he is not. AN JIQN. MEMBER: Inaudible. CAPT. WINSOR-: Those fishermen who come in with damage, as .a matter of. fact, there are three or four on the Northeast Coast O'Yer the weekend which had damage in going through the ice. Now when they arrive at Durrell or wherever that marine centre is they do not have 4066

AprH 14, l'l75 Tape 1373 (morning) IB-1 the ready cash in your pocket, some arrangement. What I am asking the min1ster is would he make some arrangements in order that fishermen would not be delayed, take his boat out of the water, get it repaired and get hack to whatever type of fishing he is engaged in. MR. ROllERTS: Or else he will never make the money to pay for it. MJl. CROS!llf:: Mr. Speaker, there is no need for any special arrangements to be ma<'fe. Obviously that would be done in any event. You know, the honourahle gentleman - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. 'MR. CROSJ\IE: charged.

Everybody who gets their boat hauled up is going to be _AN HONOUJIABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER (STAGG): Order, please! MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I resent this attack upon my generosity. I have had no complaints from anyone in this connection. The honourable gentleman has a complaint. I say, give me his name and I will have the whole situation checked out and then I will report on all the facts to the House. You know, that is all. ORDERS OF THE DAY: Ml1. ROBERTS: Mr. ~peaker, under the provisions of Standing Order

(23) Task leave to move the adjournment of the House - we do not seem to have a - 1f the clerk would be good enough - to discuss a definite matter of urgent puhlic importance, na'mely, the failure of the government of this Province to support the efforts be1ng made by other ProvinceR to prevent an increase in the price of fuel and oil products to the consumers Jn those prov1nces, which failure by the government will result in the people of Newfoundland and Labrador paying suhstantially higher prices for gasoline and for heating oil in the very near future, which failure is a direct result of the government's refusal to stand up for the true interests of Newfoundland and of Canada as a whole.

As Your Honour has doubtless realized, Your Honour being as quick as Your J1onour is, this is exactly the same motion that I have attempted to, or that I have asked leave to move twice in the last week. I feel 4067

~- April 14, 1975 Tape 1373 (morning) rn-2 the matter is serious and urgent. It should be debated. I asked earlier today whether it would be debated, and I was told, well, the Energy Department Estimates will come up at some point this week. Sir, this matter should be debated now. The Premier has committed this Province to a position which many people feel is wrong. He has done it without any debate. I ask now if the motion could he accepted so that we could debate the matter and get the sense of the Rouse on it, get the feeling of the House.

It is still not too late for the government to come to their senses, Sir. MR. CROSJIIE: I know it is hardly necessary to address you on this. The question is whether this is a matter of urgency and such utmost importance that it must he debated now. I point out first, rir. Speaker, that the conference involved teminated last week, that there is to he nc change in the prices of oil or gas in Canada for at least another two monthsJuntil the end of June. That hardly indicates any urgency.

I point out to Your Honour that the estimates of the Department of ~ines and Energy are to come before the House this week when the matter can be discussed in detail and will. We will be proud to discuss it and explain it to honourable gentlemen opposite so that they will stop this silly _ harassment.

Therefore, under all the rules t.hat appertain tci a debate of this nature,plus the fact that 1 t has heen moved twice before, last week when the conference was on and is now being moved with the conference having terminated without any change :In oil and gas prices, I would ask Your Honour to find that it is not suitable to be debated at this time. MR. SPEAKER (STAGG): Order, please! Well, there have been two previous rulings, at least two previous rulings on this matter. I find that the circumstances have not substantially changed.

Although the. matter is one of greet importance to everyone, it is not a matter which demands innnediate debate and consequently is not one of these matters for which the ordinary order of husiness would be suspended. On motion the the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply. Mr. Speaker left the Chair. 4068

April 14, 1975. Tape 1374 RH - 1 MR. CHAIRMA."l: Page sixteen of the estimates. Head 11 Legislative MR. ROBERTS: It is sort of a changing of the guard. May I go aQead, Your Honour. The Head has been called. MR. CHAIRMAN (Dunphy): The honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is traditionally the Head which goes through at five minutes to eleven on a Friday evening and I guess ten minutes after twelve on a Monday morning is a modern equivalent of it. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Yes.

For the benefit of the honourable the Member for Green Bay, this is the Head out of which our own salaries are paid and it is usually done in the dark of night for a good reason. I only have one question really on the salaries end of it, Sir, because there are no changes proposed in members salaries, nor should there be in my view at this time. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Well, my bank manager would not be very keen on that. If the honourable gentleman wants to take a cut, I would be the first to encourage him, but my bank manager has strong views on that sort of thing.

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CHAIRMAN (Dunphy): Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: Well, that may have, that - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: A number of honourable gentlemen would debate that. Nr. Chairman, the question I have applies throughout really. This amount of $204,100 is a very substantial increase from last year. It is thirty-one - the reason for the increase, as far as I can see, is and this appears throughout the estimates, so probably the Premier or the Minister of Fisheries or the Minister of Finance or whoever is to speak on these estimates could explain to us on what basis 4069

April 14, 1975. Tape 1374 Rll - 2 are the amounts calculated which are shown as new positions, reclassi­ fications and salary adjustments. Now, these are obviously legitimate items and they are obviously items which canno~ be ascertained defini­ tively in advance, particularly the salary adJustments because, of course, they are a matter for negotiations and it should be noted, I think, for the purpose of all concerned that these are not the sAlary adjustments that will affect M.H.A.s. Our allowances as M.H.A.s are paid out of 201-02 under the heading, or 201-02-01.

That little item of three quarters of a million dollars there, that is where our money comes from as M.H.A.s. I am concerned, Sir, with the general practice throughout the estimates. Large items are put in and they may they may or may not be justificable, but I wonder if some spokesman for the ministry, and I would assume the Minister of Finance, if he is allowed to, give his opinion on this matter and could tell us just what is the basis on that on which that $31,000, in this case $31,100 is computed. Is it a percentage? If so, what is the percentage and on what basis is it taken? MR.

DOODY: Are you talking about - MR. NEARY: Will the real Minister of Finance please stand up? MR. DOODY: No 0 I was outside and I heard salaries mentioned and I darted back in again. I am sorry. Treasury Board - MR. ROBERTS: The junior Member from Harbour Main holds other offices temporarily.

My question~and perhaps it should have been addressed to him in his capacity as Chairman of the Treasury Board - It is hard to know, Sir, who is who over there most of the time - There is an item shown here, $31,100, under the heading, New Positions, Reclassifications and Salary Adjustments, and, of course, that comes throughout the estimates. There is not a salary Head in the estimates, I am sure, that does not have a similar item in it. That amount is approximately twenty per cent of the total expenditure last year.

The total expenditure last year was $165,000 and that amount is eighteen or twenty per cent of that. 40·10

April 14, 1975. Tape 1374 RH - 3 What I want to know, Mr. Chairman, is on what basis are these amounts calculated? How much, you know, what part of it is for reclassificatidns and I was not aware there were any reclassification exercises underway? Perhaps the minister could tell us about that. What new positions are contemplated? What proportion is for that and what proportion is for salary adjustments? Let it not be said, Mr. Chairman, that this somehow affects the government's overall position in negotiations.

The government's position in negotiations is well known at least to the negotiating parties and there is no reason why the Rouse cannot have some indication of what sort of blank check the government are asking for because throughout the estimates, 1 have not totalled them all, but there is an amount of about $50 million under these various little headings of new positions, reclassifications and salary adjust­ ments and the votes out of which hospital wotkers are paid and teachers are paid. I wonder if the minister could give us a little infonnation on that please? I cannot give you 4071

April 14, 1975 Tape 1375 Imorning) IB-1 very much informa t:l.on, Mr. Chairman, hecause obviously we wt 11 not know how much will be required for increases for the various sectc>rs nf tile publ:!c service until after the contracts are sii(ned. We do have, as the Leader of the Opposition suggested, a vote in there, an amount nf money in there which hopefully will cover the major amount involved. llut, as he has indicated himself on several occasions, these are indeed estimates.

We would hope that we are estimating well, hut certainly we have nc> real knowledge of what the finnl fee w:! 11 be until the various negotiations are concluded. The amounts of the hreakdown between the new posj ti ons and new classifications and increases in salari.es, it is not my privilege to divulge at the present time. Certainly the information is within the confines of Treasury Board now. These people are discussing it over the bargaining table w:!.th the various public service un:! nns and organizations. There is a reclassification assessment going on across the table.

There are some sectors of the public service who are most unhappy with the present GS ratings, scale and steps and so on. A lot of work has been done on that during the past year hy the people in Treasury Board. It has been discussed with the representatives of the unions and so on. So, until such time as the position is clarified by the people negotiating T really cannot say anything other than the fact that we estimate that we have enough money in there to cover the situations that arP described. If we do not, then I am afraid we will have to looi· at it again later on.

But that is all the information we can give at the present time, !-fr. r.hairman. MF. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, T cannot make the minister say what he does not want to say. If he :Is going to evade the :Issue, then all T can say is that he is evading and avc>iding the issue and w:lthout reason. Rut, I wonder then if he could come hack to another poi.n t. On what basis are these amounts estimated? Does the secretary of the Treasury Board or some official down the re pull them out of the air? You know, on what hasis? Do we look at a Oui.1a lloard? You know, there must he 4072

Apr:! 1 14 , Jq 75 Tape 1375 (morning) IB-2 ,1 hasis. I wonder if the minister could 1.ndicate on what basis it is hecause tte matter if of importance, M'r. Chairman. We are being asked as a Committee, as a House, to approve expend1tures. That is a very f1ne th1ng tn be asked to do. It is also very necessary. As part of that process, we, as a House,or as a Committee in this case 1have. a right to know what the money is going for. Throughout the estimates, Your Honour, there are large amounts of money.

They total, I am told - now, I have not run them up myself, but I have had somebody do it - that total approximately $50 million which is about twenty per cent of the current Salary Bill taking it at $250 million. That is about an extra $50 million being laid out for these items, these so called reclassifications, new positions, and salary adjustments. Nov, I 11m not asking the m1nister to give away his negotiating strategy w1th the NAPE and the CUPE and the other groups with whom the Treasury Board 11re nego _tiating. That is fair enough.

But, can he tell us on what basis these amounts are put in • What I am trying to get at is trying to figure out - there is nothing devious or secret about it - trying to figure out just what standards the government have taken in working out the budget. In other words, how much leeway have they built into it. This government, Sir, have a nasty habit of asking for hlank checks. They are now asking for a blank check of about $50 million. The hland statement that they are negotiating is not quite enough,at least to satisfy me.

So, I wonder if the minister could tell us on what basis he and his staff have arrived at these figures. MR. DOODY: ~ir, the staff in Treasury Board did not use a Quija Board, nor to the best of my knowledge they have n~t used that system since the honourahle leader and his group departed from the scene. I can assure him that there will be a far more scientific system than that used during the current year and the years to come. I can only tell the honourable member what T have told him before.

We did not know how much money was going to be nrcPssary for the various items that we mentioned here, 1 nc-.reased and salary adjustments, extra positions, reclassification and so on, for the simple reason that the negotiations are not even s t a rted. He have not received submissions from the various unions and assoclations involved. It would have been impossible to come up 4073

ApriJ. 14, 1975· Tape 1375 (morn1ng) with the correct figure until such time as the negotiat i ons are finished. ~e dfn ta~ e what we felt was a reasonable es timate ann it is just an estill'.a te. We may he our some money one way or the other. When the final figures are known, certafo)y this honourah l e llnu!<e will he told about it , hut I certainly cannot tell you something th At I d.o not know. Nobody knows because the hill is not in yet . T no not mean the bili. I mean invoice, the aw~unt that has to he pai d, is not known at the present rime. So, unfortunately I cannot tell you what I do not know.

I am sure that the public service unions do not know. That is all we can say , Sir . 4074 rn-3

Anri l 14 , 1975 Tape 1376 (. Morning) PK - 1 Mr. Chairman, I am not asking the minister to tell us if he does not know. Not even the minister with his marvelous facilitv for garbling things could come to grips with that one. But let me a~ain ask him a question which, you know, I am not saying he does know. I ~~ill accept it if he tells us he does not know~ although he ought to know and he should know, and I believe until he says the contrarv, he does know. It is quite simply this- · on what basis are these amounts calculated? He can make his little smart cracks about ouija boards. AN HON . "r.Mllr.R: MR.

RORF.RTS: - - Inaudible. No, I asked if that was the basis? And I was assured lt was not•, and then the minister obviously reacting on a Monday morning as1<ing - vou know, what I want to know is what basis are they calculated? Because if he gives us no basis then a ouija is at least as rational as any other assumption. Now I do not think it is a ouija board. The mjnister mav have some other weird calculations in l!lind but I do not think he uses the ouija board system. All I ask is on what basis are these amounts calculated? Why is it $31,100 and not $131 or $13? There otviously is a basis. I know not what it is.

The minister may not know what it is. AN 110N • ME !BER : ,,m_. ROllFRTS: Inaudible. I susnect he does. If he is as well informed as people 1 particularly those who do not know 1im, give him credit for - AN HON. 'ffiMJlF.R : Inaudible. ~n>. ROBERTS: No, T do not know the minister, and that is a matter for which both he and I, I would hope are grateful. And I can assure him t hat J. am. llut he must know the basis. Can he just tell us what the !,asds is? AN HON. KEl-fBER: It is a legal thing. ''IR. DOODY: Mr. r.hairman, we go through the exercise again.

The knowledg eab le peopl e , the professional staff in Treasury Board looked at whnt they thou11:ht might be requested of government by the various unions involved, th ev looked at the negotiations that were on-going in other parts of th~ Western World, they looked at the cost of living, the y 4075

April 14, 1975 Tape 1376 (Morning) PK - 2 looked at the Province's capacity to pay, and then they came up TJith a reasonable estimate, Now as I said from the beginning on this, it 1s only an estimate. Uhat the figure is, they do not know. F.ven the best professional advice does not know. We have dispensed ,,Tith the ouija board but the crystal hall or the prescience or ominpotence or nothing else knows.

Because the deal, the arrangements, and nep;otiations, the contracts have not been signeo,and indeed, Sir, in many cases the negotiating rackages are not in from some of the unions, or some of the sectors of the public service. vfltat our people have felt as a reasonable amount of money to ask the House for, to talk to these people with,is included in these estimates. That is all TJe can do, Sir, make an estimate, make a guess.

We hope we are right, if not we will have to talk to the House again,If we are rip;ht I am certainly sure we will receive no great y congratulations for it, hut if we are ~rrong I am certainly sure the House will J-,e most sympathetic. MR. NEARY: Are you going to bring in a mini budget? MR. DOODY: No, if I can avoid it, Sir. I hate bringing in budgets. MR. CHAIRYAN (DUNPHY): Shall 201-01 - MR. MURPHY: Mr. Chairman, if I may? We are discussing now,as I see it, Sir, this House of Assembly. What makes it tick? The sessional pay and so on and so forth. MR. ROBERTS: No, we are discussinft the salaries of the staff.

MR. MURPHY: The salaries of the staff and under 201 sessional. And I will treat it here,if I may,this actual House of Assembly here and those who are connected with it. MR. ROBERTS: MR. MURPHY: Why do you not do it under the proper heading? Which one is that? HR . ROBERTS: Well,we are on the salaries of the stenographers (inaudible) and down below we come to 201-02-01 which is our vote. You know, our own vote. MR. MURPHY: Well,okay.It does not matter if you want to wait seven seconds, MR. ROBERTS: Inaudible. MR. MURPHY: if you want to he technical . AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. 4076

Anril 14 , 1975 Tape 1376 (Morning) PK - 3 MR. MURPHY: Ye s . MR. CllAI RNAN (DUNPHY) : Shall 201 - 01 carry? 0n motion 201-01 carried. MR. ROBER.TS: Mr. Chairman, I have one other question, Sir, On 202-01, there is an amount of $16,000 in there for extra assistance. Now I was wondering what extra assistance we have in mind? That is an amount equivalent to about one-seventh, it is a fifteen per cent amount in for extra assistance. What precisely do we have in mind for extra assistance? Have we spent anything out of that head this year for that purpose?

You know, the salaries of all the staff are there, the Editor of Debates anrl the Libarian and the secretaries and the clerk typists and all that sort of thing. They are all there. Then there is an amount for overtime that is fair enough. Then $16,000 for extra assistance. What do we have in mind there? Either the President of the Treasury Board or the Finance Minister possibly could tell us. MR. OOODY: I do not know. I will have to get the information for you. I quite hone11tlv do not know. I can check it for you and find out. ''IR.

ROBERTS: ---- - -- -·-- Well I would appreciate it, Then maybe we could let 201-~l stand until the minister - we can go on , The gentleman for St. John's r.entre wants to say a word or two. >ffi.. DOOD'{: 'IR . ~OBER.TS : Inaudible. All right. We will go on and listen to the gentleman for St. John's Centre whatever he has to say, but let us let 01 stand and go on to 02, Sir? AN HON . MEMBER: HR. ROBERTS : IIR.. CHAIRMAN: !'P , R.ORERTS : Inaudible. That is in order, if it is acceptable? Shall 02-01 carry? the honourahle Member for St. John's Centre. }IR.. C!JAIRHAN (DUNPHY): The honourable Member for St.

John's Centre. HR.. MURPHY: Mr. Chairman, at this time I would like to say a few words on the House of Assembl y a s such. And perhaps, it has always heen understood, Sir, that this is the place where the elected members come tor.ether, where we frame laws, where we do actually the business of the country,of the Province. 4077

April 14, 1975, Tape 1377, Page 1 -- apb These past couple of years, Sir, I have been somewhat amazed, puzzled as to what has happened to this House of Assembly. When I read the resignation of the honourable the Member for Labrador South, when I hear him make his statements about his being in this House and in two years or two and a-half years he has gone in debt, I think, $35,000 - it has been an economic disaster for him - he states, Sir, that this House of Assembly is the rich man's game and he mentions that if there are clowns here, the people are responsible for sending the clowns here.

I read, and I have not a copy of it here, only on Friday or Saturday Mr. Collins' write-up about this House of Assembly. I am speaking now as a member of this House as I think it pertains to every other member of this House of Assembly and what his feelings are. When I read the same thing, Sir, an editorial on "1ornin~ the conduct of the Leader of the Opposition with reference to challenging speakers, and I think it has been the only case as far as I know, in - I do not know about North America - but in Canada ,where a Leader of the Opposition had to be removed from the House.

There have been cases, Sir, of people being thrown out of the House, if you like. Fair enough: It has happened in our dav, But I am just wondering now, with all of us here - the old saying again; wherefore and wither tending - is this just going to be some kind of an amphitheater where we come to try to destrov each other? We read all over the place, Sir, that it is not a fit place to bring children. The conduct of members! you listen to the different open lines and everything else and hear the impression people have on this House of Assembly.

There is one question I would like to ask someone if they would answer me and that is on the vote to the Opposition office, Sir. How much is it? How much do they get? How much assistance is there? I ask that for a special reason, Sir. Because when I happened to be Leader of the Opposition, I inherited it from the Honourable the Minister of Education, there was a $10,000 grant to the Opposition office for three people. 4078

April 14, 1975, Tape 1377, Page 2 -- apb Morning We had to research nineteen departments, that was six each. and we got $10,000 to do it, pay a secretary - MR._ CHAIRMA."! _(Dunphv); Order, olease! If the honourable gentleman would oermit for one moment. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) - .. - -- -- MR. MURPHY: - I am dealing with the Rouse of Assembly. I find what the honourable member has to say certainly is in order but it is becoming increasingly difficult to hear what is going on in the House because of chatter that is taking place behind me, behind the Chair.

I would ask honourable gentlemen, whoever it is, to take their business elsewhere so that I can follow the b_usiness of the House. MR. MURPHY: - ---- Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am trying to, Sir, if I can, talk about matters that happen or are supposed to happen within these four walls and this ceiling here. I have asked a question as far as the Ooposition are concerned; just what monies are made available to them to carry on their newspaper clipping and this sort of thing and to compare it to what happened, Sir. They have nine members over there as far as I can understand.

They only have to research two departments each because we have a great nineteen departments, I think. Three of four years ago when another party was in nower and another narty was in Opposition, I happened to be one of three in that office, Sir. The vote was $10,000 out of which we had to pay a secretary, a researcher. I collected unemployment insurance, I did collect income tax and so on. As a matter of fact, it was $10,000 to administer that - that special office which is a department of this honourable House.

I am wondering when I hear reports of $40,000 or $50,000 or whatever it might be, anrl I think it is ahsolutelv too much for the job that is being done by this Opposition, Sir, and I may make a move to reduce that before I finish my few words. But I am basically concerned, / n,, 7 n '""J" ... • .: -::,

April 14, 1975. Tape 1378 RH - 1 Sir, with the image - I am absolutely serious, never more serious in my life. Never was money so absolutely wasted, peoples' money on such a contemptible attitude that members have taken in this House and that is why I am trying to say, Sir, that this honourable House in the past two, three years, the reputation of this House, Sir, has come to such a stage that we are just a laughingstock of the people of this Provi nce. Now, people can say,what the heck am I talking about.

I am talking about somet hing, Sir, that concerns everyone of us here and with me being in this honourable House, Sir, since 1962 with some others here,and look back on attitudes and conduct that is happening in this House, the great areas of what I might call is permissiveness, Sir, that has been given to the Opposition in the past three years since we have come in, Sir, your question period, your so on and so forth and the absolute abuse, Sir, of these privileges, the absolute abuse, Sir, has brought this House down to a level, Sir, where I dare say people would not come here if it was the last place in the world to come to sit in the galleries.

I say that quite frankly. I think now, Sir, we have talked about select committees on this and select committees on that, it is time for us to set up some kind of a committee, Sir, to look at this honourable House. I could quote from editorials or anything else what has happened. The Leader of the Opposition objects to us . He calls the Speaker prejudiced, so on and so forth. Tre whole side over there gets up and walks out with him. Say no, the heck with the Speaker, let us throw him out. We have done away with authority.

We have done away with everything else and still we have another member up there talking about vandalism and disregard for the law and disregard for this, that and the other thing. I think, Sir, and I say it quite frankly, that it starts right here in this honourable House. If we cannot give the example, Sir, if we cannot give it, what do we expect other people to do? So, Mr. Chairman, on this - MR. NEARY: Did you put him up to this, Frank? MR. MURPHY: No one put me up to this. No one put me up to this, brother . As I said to Joseph R. Smallwood at one time - 40c30

April 14, 1975 . Tape 1378 RH - 2 AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. :MR. CHAIRMAN (Dunphy): Order, please! HR. MURPHY: You can own a lot, but what I have,my own mind belongs to myself and no one can buy that. I have not been bought yet. I have not been bought yet, have not been bought yet .

But when I listen to some people, Sir, some people who have been here a few years and come in here and perhaps they feel they have a license, hut when I hear of someone else who has been here a year or so and take over , take ove.r with insinuations and everything else in this House, Sir, I am just wondering and I say this quite frankly, Mr. Chairman, ~ust where . is this House of Assembly going'? How long is it going to last? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Name names. MR. MURPHY: Name names. The honourable Member for Hennitage, I think is the most insidious of all the members in this House.

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Withdraw that. MR. MURPHY: I will withdraw it if he does not like it. I will withdraw it if it is not parliamentary, Sir, but I think it is terrible some of the stuff that is thrown out across this House at other members. I think we come here - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Give examples. MR. MURPHY: We come here, I think we come here, Sir, to try to do a job to the best of our ability, but we have reached that stage, Sir, where this Rouse of Assembly, someone has got to have a long hard look at it, Sir. How long is it going to last or will we do away with it altogether? It is just as well.

It is just as well, Sir, to see and watch the conduct that is happening in this honourable House. Thanks be to C.od, Sir, the galleries are not full, are not full. I tremble Rometimes to see school children come in here in this House. MR . NEARY: ~. MURPHY: You are the biggest culprit - If I am, I plea guilty to it. Perhaps cases should be brought where I run a culprit, but I have never yet stood up , Sir, 4081

April 14, 1975. Tape 1378 RH - 3 with every word and insinuated that everybody in the House is a crook or a gangster. I have yet to do that. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: You have come pretty close. MR. MURPHY: We had occasion. Oh, they were investigated and I was proven right. But, Mr. Chairman, again I do not know of anybody else who feels about this matter as I do, but I feel very deeply about the whole thing, Sir, that we come in here and as far as the House of Assembly is concerned we watch many things happening in the world today. The other night six young men jumped on a policeman. Oh, the heck 1-ith him.

What is worse than that - MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR. MURPHY: - than six of seven members of this honourable House jumping on the Speaker. MR. CHAIRMAN : Order, please! I feel compelled to bring the honourable gentleman to attention because expansion on the remarks which he has now begun would lead into a full-scale debate on many matters that would be totally irrelevant. I believe the honourable member must direct himself to the Head 201-01 which is Allowances to Members and that really does not give him that very broad scope that he is moving into.

It is very interesting but his remarks will have to be replied to and eventually there would be a confrontation on what was relevant and irrelevant, provocative or is not provocative, is parliamentary or not parliamentary. So, maybe the honourable member might use some other time during the debate, say, in the Throne Speech or the Budget Speech debate to put these remarks before the House. MR. MURPHY: Thank you, Mr, Chairman. There is no other time I can 4082

Anril 14, 1~75, Tape 137g, Pap,e l -- apb do it because this is the matter we are dealing with but I will not be too long at the thing. I think I will put it across. All I am trying to say is this, Sir, that we are here as elected memhers, forty-one or forty-two of us,whatever it is. to come here to do the business that the people sent us here for. We come here. 1 hope, as gentlemen to do the husiness we are here Momin~ to rlo anrl not to dep.:rade this honot•rahle Rouse. To degrade this honourable House, Sir? lie did not come here for that, Sir.

I think we talk to the Speaker, His Honour, we talk to the Chairman of Committees and so on and so forth. Thev are entitled to resnect, Sir, I think, but I do not think they have been shown the respect that we should show them, whether it be from any side. I am just saying, Sir, that I do not know if anybody else feels as strongly as I do but this is my fourteenth year in here and I can say this: that during the past three years,each succeeding year the standard, the morality, if you like, or how ever vou want to phrase it, of this House is gradually, gradually going down.

We have reached the stage now, Sir, where it is almost a circus. And I sav this, particularly when I heard the honourable the Member for Labrador South at his resigning. Some of the reasons are economic, Sir, which is another matter for memhers to discuss. If they think thi~ is a rich man's game, goorl enoup;h ! Rut 1.rhen we mention the clowns bein11; in here and this type of thing and then the write-ups in the papers, I just say, let us see ourselves as others see us. And anybody who feels about it as I rlo have the right to speak. If not, MR. NEARY: Are you running any more?

I do not think it is of anv concern to the Memher for Bell Island whether I am running or not. If I am running I feel sure that I will be elected. AN HON. _M_EMRER! You are going to retire, are you? MR. t!URPHY ! I am not retiring, not yet. AN !ION. MEMBER: Not yet? 4083

April 14, 1975, Tape 1379, PaP,e 2 -- apb Morninr- MR. MURPHY: I cannot afford to retire,boy. I cannot afford to retire,quite frankly. So, Mr, Chairman, those are the few remarks I have. As far as anything else is concerned, Sir, the sessional pay or anything else, that is absolutely up to the members of this House.

If they do not feel they are getting enough pay and everybodv feels as another member from another district who told me the other day that he is losing money bv being here, well, let us have guts enough as we always did, stand up and vote ourselves twenty-five or fifty - I am not advocating it at this time but there are members who feel - let us look at the thing seriously and all the rest of it. I know there are other members who feel as I do,or perhaps they do not, perhaps I am just a little bit rocky or something. ~.!!.O:~_-.J!E.MBER: We are getting more now than we are worth. ~-_R_Q_BE:_RTS: Mr.

Chairman, is the gentleman from Bonavista South saying that - MR. MORGAN: (Inaudible) - ----- MR. ROBERTS: Oh: I pay due deference to Mr. Collins, whatever that may mean. I am sorry! I though the gentleman from Bonavista South was talking about the gentleman from St. John's Center. I agree, we do not take him seriously. Mr. Chairman, I have no intention of getting into debate with the honourable gentleman on this issue. If he would like to debate it there is a time and a place to do it and I should be delighted to do so.

All I can say to him is that the people of Newfoundland are, if you wish, the committee to judge the conduct of this House, and I for one am happy at any time to have my conduct or that of mv colleagues,and for these purposes I will include the gentleman from Labrador South,submitted to the verdict of the people. Any time the Premier would like to slip down and wait upon His Honour, we will have the election and we will get the verdict. That is all it takes. Until then, to get into the mire with the honourable gentle~an from 4084

April 14, 1975, Tape 1379, Page 3 -- apb St. John's Centre, Sir, is something I do not want to do and do not intend to do. The honourable gentleman, Sir, gets up in his cloak of seamless cloth and wraps himself in that garment and I for one would never attempt to get into a row with the gentleman from holier than thou. He is an expert at being holier than thou and I have no intention of getting into it. Now, Sir, I am quite happy if he is so uninformed as to not to know what is in the estimates that his colleagues and he Morning have put before the House.

If he merely takes the trouble to look at the salary details, the separate appendix that we have been given he will see on page 5 that the amount of $40,801 has been allocated for secretarial help to the Opposition office, and I believe there is an amount of about $11,500 in the appropriate heading for the other Opposition expenses, and in addition we have the same privileges as any member of the House, including the honourable gentleman, with respect to telephone calls, telegrams and letters. I am quite 4085

April 14, 1g75 Tape 1380 (morning) Il\-1 happy to say as I have said here many times - I will go on saying it as long as I am in Opposition jn the next year or so. Then when the shoe is on the other foot, no douht it will he the other way - that the administration have taken a very reasonable attitude towards this. It is essentially the same as the attitude taken in Ottawa by the government there or by the governments of other provinces. I have no hesitation in - J said so to the Premier in the House and T said to him outside, I will give credit where credit is due.

But, as for the honourable gentleman's holier than thou lecture, Sir, T could reply to him in kind. I really could, Sir. I really coulrl. But, the only thing is that would touch off a first class hrouhaha. The honourable gentleman might think that would help the House. But, Sir, it is the type of comment he has made that is causing whatever feeling their may he in his mind. I notice he said with great vigor that he was possessed of his own mind. I have never doubted that, Sir. I can go further and say that the honourable gentleman is a self-made man because nobody else would take the responsibility for it.

Now, Mr. Chairman, as I said, if we wish to debate this, if a motion is brought in in the appropriate way, I would be quite happy to debate it. Indeed :If it is in order to debate now, let us do it. But I do not think it would serve any purpose. I think that if the honourable gentleman feels that the House is not measuring up to what the people of Newfoundland expect of it, let him go look in his own mirror first. I am not saying any of us is perfect. But, I say the honourable gentleman, Sir, the old biblical quotation applies - let him. among you who is without sin be the first to cast the stone.

By that standard, Sir, he should not be casting any stones about conduct or public morality. MR. SI}!M()NS: Before this matter passes, I feel much as my colleague, the Leader of the Opposition does, that it would he a mistake to reply in kind to the remarks made by the ~ember for St. John's Center. Were it parliamentary, I would quote from an old saying that, one should never get into a stink match, etc. Rut, it is not parliamentary. T 4086

ArrH 14, l <J75 Tape 1380 (morning) rPalize you could not win on that kind of an argument. So, I shall refrain. ~r. r.hairman, when I hear the minister talk about, rather piously talk about his concern about destroying each other, are we trying to destroy each other, well I think not. I hope not. But IB-2 in the event we are, T cannot think of anybody more qualified to engage in that kind of an exercise than the minister if I can judge hy his performance in the short time I have been here. I have never heard more piety from such -an unexpected source, Mr.

Chairman, in all my life. r cannot sit here,in particular, and allow him to misrepresent the rolP. of the Oppositio.n. Of course, Mr. Chairman, we do a lot of things the mfnister is not going to agree with. We do not particularly do them for that reason. But, if we are getting to him in some respect, well, be that as i _t may. "Ir. Chairman, for him to stand there and idly dismiss, mischievously dismiss the amounts of money that have heen voted to the Opposition, really is an indication that he is not at all. aware of what is roing on.

While I would be the first to concede that we do thinge that he does not particularly like, I would also be the first to point out that I do not do things on the basis of whether the Minister of Social ~ervices is going to like them or not. I think he should also recognize - I nm sure he does but chooses not to mention it - he should also recognize, Mr. Chairman, that the Opposition,not withstanding the comments made hy the Leader of the Opposition, the Opposition is still ope.rating in prf'tty cramped conditions. One 011ly has to compare.

You can do this by stopping the elevator on the fifth floor anc:l seeinp: t\1e lahels of the government M.H.A. 's who I understarld have never heen in the offices, hut I understand they have an office for every two hackt-enchers. In our case, we have, of course, an office measur1nr; ahout twelve hy fourteen for two secretaries and seven M.H.A. 's. MR. MORGAN: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. HR. SIMMONS: I knew I was getting touchy. MR. SI~ONS: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order . ~r. Chairman, if the 4081

Ap ril 14 , 1975 Tape 1380 (morning) 11\-J honourable gentleman is going to refer to the offices used by the members on the fifth floor, I hope he would use the correct infomation. Because the offices on the fifth floor - I know my own is heing used extensively every day, I take strong exception to these irresµ_onsjhle and untrue remarks. MR . Sll1MONS: r. Chairman, to the point of order,if it is one, just allow me to say that I in no way inferred - if to make a statement that there are offices on the fifth floor is an irresponsible statement, well, I plead irresponsibility.

I simply said that there are offices on the fifth floor which to the ~est of my knowledge are for two government M.H.A.'s. Am I correct in saying that or not? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Never used. MR. SIMMONS: I never did say - oh, Mr. Chairman, if T did say never used I did not intend that because I - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Never used by some members. MR. THOMS: Never used by some members. 4088

Anril 14, 1"75 Tape 1381 (Morning) PK - 1 ~ffi . SIMM()NS: Mr. Chairman, I think that was one of the other M.H.A's who might have said that. I did not even say those words, I think the tanes uill show. I\_N. HON • llFMBER : Inaudible. MR. CHAIR1'lAN: ---- - -- Order, please! Well the Chair has no intention of ruling on this point of order. It is basically a matter of a difference of oninion between two honourable members. It does not affect the privileges of the House. It is not a matter of privilege that was raised.

Gonsequently the honourable member is stating or attempting to recapitulate what he said or what he did not say. It is irrelevant as far as the Chair 1s concerned. Indeed the whole argument in many instances is irrelevant to this subhead. However, the honourable member is heing given a certain amount of leeway in replying to some of the remarks made by the Minister of Social Services. So consequently if the honourable member wishes to clarify his position he may do so, but 1 am not nrepared to consider the point of order raised by the Member for Bonavista South. MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Chairman, I do not particularly want to raise at this time the matter of the degree to which these offices are used. The members can judge for themselves on that matter. I am talking about the space made available to various M.H.A's. And I have said, and I am subject to beinp.; contradicted, I have said that in the case of government ~•.IT.A's there are semiprivate offices for backbenchers.

Whether that is so or not I can report on what is the case on this si.de of the House ,For the seven Liberal H .H.A' s excluding the Leader of the Opposition there is an office measuring about twelve by fourteen,for those seven n.H.A's and two secretaries. Now if anybody, be it the ~inister of Social Services or anybody else,can stand up and say that is fa1r, well I do not agree with them.

I happen to know, because I myself and at lea,at one other M.H.A on this side have had to look for suace elsewhere outside of the building so that we can be enabled to do our work in terms of telephone and in terms of answering mail and that kind of thing. So I do take pretty strong exception to what the minister says, hut ,aince it was that m:1.nil"ter who said it I cannot get particularl y worked up over it. 4089

April 14, l'l75 Tape 1381 (Morning) PK - 2 One other point, Mr. Chairman, which relates is the matter of expenses of M.H.A's, and I believe if this is not the anoronri~te heading perhaps the next one is 1 sd I will just be very brief on it. 1 have long felt that expenses of X.H.A's should be related to the amount of expense allowance should be related to the expenses they are incurring. Now, Mr. Chairman, by way of example, in the first calendar year of my election, in other words in 1974, according to my tabulations which I kept for the purpose of knowing what I was spending, I spent $5, 6nn -- AN HON.

MIDfBER: That was all? MR. SIMMONS: and I am prepared to show that documentation to anybody who wants to see it. I soent $5,600 in getting to my district, expenditures directlv related to the district in the first year. What I am saying, of course, is tlmt I believe a member who serves a very rural district, and there are a good many of them in this House, a good many members who represent such dist!icts, ought to have their exoense allowance related to the kind of expenses they actually incur.

Because while we have a number of people representing rural districts we have a number of other members who are not called upon to spend anything near the $4·, oor allowance which is set aside for members. It is a matter I think that needs to be taken under review pretty soon. Mr. Chairman, .1ust finally before sittinr, down I was particularly stirred by the statement by the minister to the effect that the standard, the decorum of the House has gone down in the past three or four vears. Well I have not been here that long and I cannot judge, sol will take the minister's word for it.

But in making that statement he is doing one or two or three things, Mr. Chairman. He obviously intends to cast some aspersions on members in Opposition. It is ,,,orth pointing out that we represent a minority in this House, and if the decorum of the House has gone down, I would like to ask,first of all,is he ind1cting the Chair? Is he saying to the Chair that it is not doing its _job? If so, he should do in a less cowardly fashion, he should do 1t accordinp; to the rules of the House. Or is he questioning the leadership on his own side of the House?

He said the decorum of this House is gone down - In large measure the responsibility must lie with the House leadership, and I would say to the Minister of Social Services that what he ou~ht to 4080

t-r,ru ]_{,, 1 "75 Tape 1381 (Morning) PK - 3 1,e doinr. instead of making pious statements in this Rouse is getting together witl1 hiss huddiesa and suggesting some concrete action so that the decorum of the House does not continue to slide, if indeed it has according to his statements. 1-1r. Chai .rman, the abbreviationF 4091

April 14, 1975. Tape 1382 Rll - l for his department are S.S. He is truly called the Minister of S.S. in my opinion. MR. DOODY: The honourable Leader of the Opposition asked me to get some information for him on 201, I think it is 201-02-02. Any­ way it is one of these subheads here. It is on salaries, $16,000 for extra assistance.

People down in Treasury Board tell me that this amount corresponds to the amount that is voted in every depart­ ment, indeed, in every division of department and it is specifically to give the administration of the department some leeway, some flexibility in hiring outside assistance whether it be professional help or clerical help, extra stenographic help. Tn this particular case, he mentioned the fact that there is an extra girl for the Speaker's Office hired for six months while they are trying to get an extra permanent position approved. So, this is the sort of flexibility that it allows.

Whether or not that is of any - applies to the Opposition office as well, it is something that you could discuss either with Treasury Board people or with the Speaker's Office. In this particular instance, as indeed as in all of the other departments and divisions, that is the object of that vote. MR . ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I thank the minister and I accept what he says, but I do not believe it. We will leave it at that. I mean very few votes, looking through it, have specifically quite as high as this in extra assistance, But I mean if extra staff is needed I would be the last to deny the extra staff.

I think all I need know is that we are being asked,and I assume will approve,out of a total of salary head of $204,000, $47,000 which is near enough to twenty-five per cent,will be unallocated. That is a pretty large blank ch·eck and the proportions are nowhere near as high in other departments. Anyway, I mean, how big an issue can you make out of $16,00n? I have asked the minister. He has given us his explanation and all that he and I can do if we go over it is that, is to go over it and I suggest that is relatively pointless. On motion, 01 throu gh 04 carried. MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to move in addition to the 4092

April 14 , 1975. Tape 1382 RH - 2 estima ,tes here that an amount of $15,000 be added to a new subdivision to be known as 201-02-05 and to called select committees so that - select committees - so there will be another subhead here (05), select committees, $15,000. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROsnn:: ------ As soon as we get it underway. The purpose of that vote would be, Mr. Chairman, for the expenses of select committees.

We have a Select Committee in the inshore fishery now, of course, which is incurring some expenses and if the principal of that $15,000, I would think that a substantial amount of it would be spent on the Select Committee in the inshore fishery, most of which is for travelling of the members and expenses in connection with it and the results of it being,we hope,a select committee on election expenses which may require some - MR . . NEARY: Is the minister - }{R. CROSBIE: Twenty days. HR. NEARY: No, fourteen days. MR. CROSBIE : You cannot be up to everything. We will get her · appointed as soon as you are ready.

MR. EARY: Is that so? MR. CROSBIE: Anyway, this is select committees. MR . CTIAIR}Wl: Shall 05 carry? MR. SIM}!O lS: Mr, Chairman, we are on (05), select committees, are we? Just a couple of questions for the minister: I understand from talking to some people around the Province that the times of meetings of the Select Committee are not particularly convenient for a lot of fishermen. I am wondering if it is contemplated having meetings at more convenient times in certain places,like seven or eight o'clock in the evening?

A good many fishermen, in order to get to these meetings, have had to forego a day's fishing and I know in my own area a number of people who very much wanted to get to meetings could not for that kind of reason.

April 14, 1975. Tape 1382 RI! - 3 Also, the Chairman of the Select Committee on the inshore fishery has been quoted, I think, just over the weekend in the papers as saying that he is having difficulty cramming all the meetings and the overall work assignment into the time allocated. 4094

April 11,, 1Q75 Tape 1383 (morning) IB-1 T think at one point the minister indicated there might be an extension hut 1 am a bit vague on that. T wonder would the minister comment on that matter and just indicate when the Committee might be submitting its final report. Finally,back to the subject of meetings. A number of areas have not heen included in the schedule. I am wondering if there is an extension, a deadline, whether the Committee will be going to additional areas which are not on the original schedule. MR. C:ROSllrn: Mr.

Chairman, I am trying to get together with the C:hairrnan of the Select Committee and will in the next day or two to review what extension they want. As we made clear before, there is no problem if the Cammi ttee feels they need an extension. T understand that they do. We will ask the House to give them an extension of another month if that is what they feel they need. I think the resolution now says April 3(1 but that can be changed,if the Rouse agrees 1very easily.

Once I have discussed it with the Chairman and see what date he suggests or the Committee suggests, then we will sup,gest amending the resolution to the House. As to the meetings, if they are given more time of course then they have got less pressure on their schedule. They have had evening meetings as well as meetings during the day. Because they have been trying to get to a number of areas and hold a number of meetinp,s, they have had to have some during the day also. But, 1 wi 11 pass that on to them. If we do extend the time, I am sure they ,~il 1 he a1'le to arrani;i:e more evening meetings.

So, that will he reviewed with the Chairman and the Committee this week and then we wi 11 ask the House to make a change there. Also i.f we do extend the time, I am sure they wil 1 be having more meetings in the areas such as you suggested. MP. SIM10NS: ~r. Chairman, just on this item quickly again. Another criticism T got of the Committee's operations was the lack of publicity Pith respect to meetings in a given area. I have examples in mine where on the cliay that the Committee was to be in Harbour Breton, I received calls that morning from three separate fishermen in Harbour Breton who 4095

April 14, 1975 Tape 13P.3 (morning) Tll-~ were not aware of where the meeting was to be held. Now, that is just a detail hut it is an important detail. If in the process some fishennen who were planning to attend the meeting r.annot get there hecause they do not know the day or the place of the meeting. It is true that it is getting some general puhlicity. But, I am wondering how specific the puhlic::1. ty is in the local are a affected hy a given meeting. The other comment that needs to he made here, I think, Mr. Chairman, is the significance of the minister having the vote inserted at this particular time.

I think it demonstrates the afterthought of the select committee's word in that at the time the budget was being sorted out the whole matter of select committees was not even a matter for budgeting. For whatever reasons whkh I will not go into now, somebody decided these select committees were a goon thing after all, and posthaste came in with some resolutions and here they are and here is the vote. I submit, Mr. ~hainnan, it is very much of an afterthought and I am not at all saying they were not necessary a long, long time ago, the one on the fisheries.

The one on the election expenses, of course, is an item I cannot - well, I can because ef select committees. The one on the election expenses, I would suggest, is here for a different kind of reason altogether and would not he there if my colleague from Twillingate had not given notice to introduce a bill on the subject. The government had lots of opportunity last year to propose sueh a committee after one of their own colleagues - I believe the Member for St • .John's South - had raised the mattE'r by way of a private resolution. So, in both cases for very different reasons I would say they are afterthoughts.

I would say they are very necessary. I say that they should have heen set in motion a long, long time ago. My only point right now is to draw the Committee's attention to what I feel is the significance of the government inserting this vote at this particular time, to catch up on what a few weeks ap,o constituted an aftertrought at hest insofar as the decision to set up these select committees is concerned. 4096

April 14, 1'175 Tape 1383 (morning) IB-3 MR ·. CROSJlTE: Mr. Cha:l.rman, it must have heen a hlessed relief to some of the school children of this Province when the honourable pedagog from Hemitage left the teaching field and moved into politics. He :l.s now lecturing -this House and lecturing the government and waving his little finger - MR. CHAIR~AN: Order, please! MR. CROSBIE: - ahout afterthoughts. MR . CHAIR AN : Order, please! I must direct a connnent to the honourable Member for Bonavista North.

Mayhe the memher was away last week when I brought to the attention of another h:onourable member that the Chair is not going to be :lntimf dated . or abused or importuned or shooed at o-r any other way :Is it going to be - AN HONOURABLE MEMRF.R: Or hullied. MR. CHAIRMAN: Or bullied, thank you, very much. 4097

April 14, 1975, Tape 1384 , Page 1 -- apb MR. CHAIRMAN: If the honourable member has a point of --- ----- order, I suggest he raise it, but not sit and make the tvpe of remarks he was making. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear! Rear! - - - - MR. CROSBIE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is, of course, a further illustration of what the honourable the Member for St. John's Center was saying just a few moments ago. ~O~ _ HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible) MR._fROSBIE: Now, Mr. Chairman, the honourable pedagog from Mornin r. Hennitage says that these two Select Committees were afterthoughts.

Well, the honourable gentleman has never been in government and does not realize that the estimates are Put together in November or December of the year. And, of course, he is conveniently fogetting that in the Speech from the Throne it was promised that the House would be asked to set up a Select Committee on election expenses and the fact that the vote is only being inserted now does not ehow that it was au afterthought, a forethought or any other kind of thought, Mr. Chairman. The point is that the government have asked the House to appoint these Co11D11ittees and they have been appointed.

The honourable gentleman complains. He says there was not sufficient publicity about the meeting in Harbour Breton. So what is wron g with the honourable member for the district? Did the member for the district not publicize that meeting? Did he not call open line in his usual way? He is on the open line, he is calling t he open line every day, every time he can think of something to criticize the government about, Why dicl he not call the open line and say that there is a meeting in Harbour Breton todav?

He could have called the open line the day before and the day before that and the day before that and told all the people in Francois, and Mccallum and Boxey and Foxey or whatever other places are in his district. AN ~ : .. }~IBER: (Inaudible) MR. CROSBIE: - -- ------ Well, all right! He could have told all the people. Is he going to discriminate against people who are not in 4098

April 14, 1975, Tape 1384, Page 2 -- apb Morninp: h1s district? Why dirl he not get on the airwaves and make the welkin ring advertising the fact to his constituents that the Select Committee on the Inshore Fisheries was meeting in Harbour Breton? I say that shows a lack of get-up-and-go and a lack of keen interest on the part of the Member for Hermitage District. A shameful admission for him to make before this Connnittee. SOME HON. '-fEMRERS: Hear! Hear! ---- ·-- - - - HR. _ _£RQ_SBIE: Thank you. I am told, Mr.

Chairman, hy a member who was there, the honourable Member for Bonavista South, that there were over 150 fishermen at the meeting in Harbour Breton. That does seem to indicate any lack of publicity in the area about it. Their meetings have all been well attended with one or two exceptions.

But we will ask the Chairman of the Committee and the members, that in areas where the member for the district cannot be expected to do his job and to let his constituents know that there is a meeting being held, that they take special pains themselves, and if they go back to Hermitage District do not depend on the Member for flermitage, get out themselves and let the fishermen of Hermitap:e know that they are having another meeting in the area. (Inaudible) MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, first of all the minister badly misrepresents the numbers of persons who were at the Harbour ~reton meetin~.

I am not surprised that his misinformation comes from the Member for llonavista Sonth, that is typical for hirn. But there were fewer than one hundred oeople at that meetinp:, Mr. Chairman. And in addition, while I do not intend to have the ~!inister of Fisheries tell me when T ~o on open line, .iust for the record. 1ust for the record I did, Mr.

Chairman, mention on a counle of occasions .thout the Select r;ommittee being in Harbour Breton, I mentioned the date and so on. llut what I said to the minister, which he chose to skate over, is that sometimes persons, particularlv persons who do not live rip:ht in the cot111Tlunitv itself where the meeting is beinP, held, and I mentione<l neop]e from Harbour Breton, but T could also mention a 4099

April 14, 1975, Tape 1384, Page 3 ·-- apb 'lorning number of fishermen from Seal Cove and a couple who wanted to attend from Hermita8e anrl from Gaultois as wel·l, that thev were not aware, in some cases,of the date. It is one thing for me to be on the open line and another thing to assume that evervhodv is listening. Some of them. as much as they love to listen to me on the open line, Mr. Chairman, have other things that they regretfully have to do at that particular moment,such as go out fishing, and sometimes thev do not take their radios with them, unfortunately. But, Mr.

Chairman, there were people, notwithstanding mv usual magnificent efforts to publicize the event, who did not know where the meeting was being held and in some cases did not know the date. I do not think it is a ma1or issue but I am just saying in the interest of helping the situation as the Committee goes to other areas, I am just gentlv saying to the minister, I do not know why he gets so worked up, nerhaps it is Monday morning, perhaps it is because of the comPany he is keening this morning, Mr.

Chairman, but for whatever reason, I iust said to him rather gently - I did not want him to get upset about it, I did not want him to wake up on account of it, Mr. Chairman - I .iust wanted to say to him very gently,could he ensure that the Committee is giving adequate publicity so that all who want to come to these meetings have a reasonable Opportunitv of knowing about it and of getting there. On motion, OS, carried. On motion, 02-02-01 through -08, carried. On motion Head.!!. (Legislative) with amencl.ment, carried. MR.

CHAIRMAN: It now being one o'clock I leave the Chair until ------- three o'clock this afternoon. 4.:.00

April 14, 1975. Tape 1385 RH - 1 The House resumed at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Chairman in the Chair. mt. CHAIRMAN: Head 1901-01 MR. CHAIRMAN: and Housing. HON . B. PECKFORD: Order, please! The honourable the Minister of Municipal Affairs Mr. Chairman, it is with a great deal of pleasure that I introduce the estimates for the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing. This department, as is well known to all honourable members of this House and to all the people of this Province, is one of the departments that is involved with the public perhaps more than any other single department.

It is not unknown to most honourable members, I suppose, how the department is set up, but I would like briefly, very briefly to run over it because there has been some sign•ificant changes made and I think some very important ones for the future. Presently the Department of Municipal Affairs, that part of the whole department - of course, I will come to housing later - involves the local government division, finance division, which I will come back to later, administration division, engineering division, water services division, development control division, planning division and the assessment division.

Now, Mr. Chairman, this past year or so has been this government's, not only intention, but some concrete contribution to establishing a separate cl.ivision of finance in the Department of Municiµal Affairs. I am nleased to say that as of a couple of weeks ago we have our full compliment of individuals in that division. Upon until very recently, it has been very difficult in the department to ascertain quickly just exactly where a given municipality stands financially with the government, with the department.

There are many, many water and sewer systems that were installed over the last fifteen or twenty years and there is a fair amount of subsidy that the department pays on behalf of the municipality because the municipality does not have the financial wherewithal to do 4.i.01

April 14, 1975. Tape 1385 RII - 2 it themselves. So when over the years a given council came to the department and was suggesting various improvements to the community, it too k some time for the officials or for the minister to ascertain just how that community stood. With this new finance division we have been putting a real push on having a complete connnunity profile on that community and all the municipalities in the Province.

Up to now, using the computer services in the past few months, we are able to tell at a moment's glance just exactly the kinds of assistance the municipality received from the department, the direct and indirect debt that that municipality owes as of a current date.

It is the intention of the department through the finance division and the planning division to enlarge that community profile, not only being involved in the financial aspects of the connnunity , its direct and indirect,the amount of subsidy it has, the arrangements on all capital projects, the arrangements on revenue grants, but also to have a complete community profile. What I mean by that is whether it has a full scale water and sewer system, the population of it, the kind of municipality it is, whether it is a town or collllllunity, local improvement district, rural district, council or whatever.

So, all that information will be on one print-out from the computer. Really, when you look at the department of the hondurable gentlemen who have been in that department on this side of the House especially, I do not know if anybody on the other side has over the years as minister, will realize that this is a pretty significant step forward.

So, the streamlining of the financial arrangements as it deals with the Municipal Financing Corporation with the department directly in its given programmes in relationship with the community will now all be on one print-out from a computer and we will be able to tell at a moments's glance the population, the kind of tax base it has now and those kinds of things, where it stands financially from its last budget that was submitted a year previous, the kinds of subsidies that

April 14 . 1975 . Tape 1385 RH - 3 the department is into, if there was any firefighting equipment, that programme, that fifty-fifty programme, if they have any of that, the paving or reconstruction of local roads. I cannot emphasize enough, Mr . Chairman, the importance of this division,and I think it has gone unnoti~ed up until now, that this division does exist and it is performing a very useful function within the confines of the department. Als'o, Mr.

Chairman, it should be noted that the assessment division of the department which is now located at Elizabeth Towers will soon be moving to a new location, a better location and we are trying t.o enlarge that division. Of course, this is long overdue as well because - AN HO~OURAJ3LE MEMBER: Inaudible. ~- PECKFORD: The assessment division. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible • MR. PECKF