Volume XLI Tuesday Province of Newfoundland FORTY- FIRST GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Second Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard) t Speaker: Honourable Thomas Lush [Preliminary Transcript] Number 11 27 ~larch i 990

The House met at 2:00 p.m . MR. SPEAKER (Lush): Olnder, pl~~ase! Before proceeding t.o the orders of the day, on behalf of hon. Members, I would like to welcome to the House of Assembly today, 90 Grade VII students from I. J. Samson school here in St.. John 1 s, accompanied by their teachers: Miss Chubbs, M1n. ShE!ppard and Ml". Fi11ier. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Statements by Ministers MR. SPEAKER: • fhe hon. the Mtnister of Forest1ny . MR. FLIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as we are all aware, the price of milk has been much in the news for this past year.

As well, you are aware that I have asked the Task Force on Agri-foods to review thE! issue of MiJ.k Pricing in this Province. Mr. Speaker, to assist with this issue, thE! Tas I< Force has initiated studies on the Newfoundland Dairy industry. Two local chartered account.ancy fir'lllS with considerable experience in dairy cost production studies at both the producer and processor levels have been awarded contracts. Doane Raymond of St. John 1 s, a national chartered accountancy firm, has bE!en a1Ali3.1nded a contract to undertake a detailed cost of procluc lion s tucly of f'luid rni lk at the producers 1 level.

Deloi tte Touche of St. John 1 s also has been awarded a contract to undertake a dE!tailed study of the cost of processing fluid milk. I have been informed by the task L1 March 2'7, 1.990 Vol XLI forCE!, that thE:! S E! S tucliE! S IAJ:iJJ lead to firm recommendations for the E!StablishmE!n;\:. of a basE• p1nice for fluid milk in this Province as well as an appropriate price adjustment mechanism t.hat IAJiJl be used in future years. Mr. SpE!aker, I u.Jas fir'st approached by the Milk Marketing Board seekipg my support For a th1nee cent :incJnease to Dat1ny producers on a litre of milk.

While I cou1d not support such an increase, a thrE!E! cc;!nt. incl"E!clse, :r: lAJaS l.l.JiJJJ.ng tO Of'r:er' lnY SUppOI~t fol" a onE~ CE!nt inci"E•ase for ' da:i .I"Y producers until the rask Force presented its final recommendations . Then in December, aftE!r thE! Milk M<H'ket:i .ng Board had gazetted its one cent incrE!ase, an appE•a1. '"'''-~~; tai<E!I'l againSt it by t.I/JO cl a :i I~ y p nH:J U C ~H' S who felt that the proposed original three cent increase was warranted. Mr. Speaker, their appeal was hea~d in January and the tribunal handed down its decision on March 15th .

The Tribunal ru1ed that an aclclit:i.ona] . two cents per litre t.uas jus l:.if:.i.E:'d to cover cost increases incurred by the Dai1ny FalnlnE:'I"c• oF l:his Province. This past weekend the ProvincE:~ 1 s Milk Marketing BoiH 'd held its annual rnE!C:~t:ing in Con1e1" B1nook. I have been l:old Lhe Boal"d in tends to comply with the recommendations of lhe rribunal, but wi.ll dE!1.ay the incrE!ase un t:i1 October 1, 1990. This dolay ts for two reasons, Mr. Speaker, 1.

They expect an increase to the farmers would cause milk processoi"S to rE'quest an incr'E•asE:!, 1.uhich in l:urn lAJOuld add l:oo rnuch to the retail price of milk al: this tirne. 2. Secondly, October date Mr . lAJO U lei No. 1.1 (Afternoon) Speab :!r, rE!Spect Lhe my rn

original request as MinistE•r, that no major price increase should take place·until the Task Force on Agri ·--Foods had reported and made a firm recommendation for both producer and processor costs and on a future pr·icing mechanism. I have requested the Task ForCE! to do everything within their power to meet this deadline; and I am confident that they will. I believe the Task Force's work will be beneficial to the dairy sector: producers, processors, and consumers alike.

Many of the contentious problems surrounding the pricing of milk and the costs incurred by all those in the industry, will be resolved once and for all. Mr. Speaker, I would like to commend the Milk Marketing Board and the producers for their actions in this matter. It is not easy For any group to forego an increase '],n revenue. As you can see the Milk Marketing Board has shown a sense of responsibility to the industry and as well to the consumers of Newfoundland and Labrador.

I am confident that the consuming public will recognize and appreciate the gesture of concern and good will demonstrated in the Milk Marketing Board's decision. Again, Mr. Speaker, I am very appreciative of the Milk Marketing Board's decision, and I hope that it lAiill help lead to an improved and more understanding relationship between the Dairy industry and the consuming public oF Newfoundland and Labrador. Thank you. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. WOODFORD: ·· - --~·-------- .... -~ ........ ~ ·· ~ ·- L2 March 27, 1990 Vol XLI Mln. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon . l:he Valley. MR. WOODFORD: .

Member for Humber Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Fitnst of all I would like to thank the Minister for giv:ing me a copy of the statement in ample time before the House· opened so I could just peruse it. In any case I l.l.Jould like to make a few cotTlmc:~nts with regards to the statern~:!nt rnc:H:IE:! by the Minister. Yes, his st.ab,~mE•nt is no doubt correct. l'he Milk Marketing Board did tTI!:;!et last WeE!I<end in Cornetn B1nook and th~:!y made a decision to do just what: the Minister has stated. In the second paragraph the MinJster sa:i.d that. thE!

Task Fot"CE! has initiated stuciJes on the Newfoundland Dairy industl'·y. Some of the questions I ask is that there are three or four studies that already have bt:!en done lAJi th regard to the COP in the Dairy industry :in the Province and done by rE!putablE! pE!Ople. One of the Chartered Accountant Firms that was involved was Touche Ross & Company and another one was a fellow by the narne of Cat"rnichael out of NetAJ Brunswick and I think one of those was sanctioned by Ag-Canada.

So to question the validity of the COP studies lAd.th regard to the dairy industry in the Province is one of rny first questions to ask the Minister: what will the criteria bE! in this study and who lAJi.Jl SE!t that criteria? These ar(;! . tlAJO Vl':~t"Y important questions that have to be ans~ered. Some $300,000 has been spent by l:he dairy industry in the Province in or ·dE!r to abidE! by t.uhat they have been l:ol.d is l:.he cost of production in or'cll':~t" to be able l:o coJ.lect it. Some ~~300,000 No. 1:1. (AftE!r'noon) R2

has been spent by the dairy tndustry and rnoi~E! spectficalJ.y, as of late, $'3S,OOO just in the J.ast few months to try . to get the tlAJo people who appealed the decision of the Milk Marketing Board for the two cent increase. In any case, Mr. Speaker, it comes dolAJn to, I suppose-- whether well intentioned or not - there was deftnitely interference by the Minister and the D~partrnent involved last fall in the dairy industry.

To say that the Milk MarkeU.ng Board cam~:! seeking th"=~ir support for a thJ~ee c~~nt increase is pi~obabJ.y right, I lAJould say he is, and ·that would be, I suppose, keeping the J.inE!S of cornrnunication open between the Milk Marketing Board and the Minister. A good thing. But at the same time I th:i.nk the Minister in his wisdom at that time shou1d have probably supported the increase, especially coming from such reputable people. The _question that I would J.ike to have answered, and I suppose it will be in five or six months t.ime, is lAJhat lAiill happen after this COP is done?

What will the Minister do then? Will he abide by the regulations and by the recomrnentations of the task force or Doane Raymond in their report, or will he take some other action? One of the reasons. M1~. Speake!~, the board took the decision last weekend in Corner Brook was because of the fact that they were afraid, to put it bluntly, that their Milk Marketing Board will be · disbanded. That was one of the concerns they had and very honestly I think that is wrcing.

In any case the tribunal set an ultimatum and said that the task force would have to bring in their report by October 1 •. and if not they lAJere going to go ahead lAJith L3 March 27, 1990 Vol XLI their two cent increase, which was justified, and they should· have had as of last year. I think it shows, and t:he Minister stated so in his stateJTI"=~nt. so1m~ responsibility on the part of t:he dairy industry and I cornrnencl h:i.m for that.

After the task force does comE~ in 1.1rl th thE!ir I~E!port on the study I think the Minister should take whatever the recommendations are, abide by thern, lE!t the Milk Mc-.u~kE!U.ng Boanl do what i l:. is supposed to do. and that is look aftE!I~ thE! p1noducer's in this Prov-.ince and lE! t the producers gE!t on lAri t:.h thE• production of mi1k :i.n t-:he ProvinCE! in order to serve every c:i.t:i.zen in this Province. Thank you, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education . DR. WARREN: Mr .

Speaker, that I inform oF a numbe1n arE! being it. is tAli l:b pleasure Members of the House of initiatives that undertaken by this to enhance the opportunit:i.es for GoverniTHHlt. educationaJ. students in the Province. In recognition of the importance of information technology to today • s society, the Department of Education, in coopE!ration lAJj.t_h school districts, !Aii.11 inil:iab~ a pi1ot project kno!Ain as 11 L:ighthouse Schools 11 • Each of U1E!se schools wi11 in essence be a centre of excellence.

It lAri11 bE! equipped with computer hardware and software to accommodate a number of innovative changes in the cu1nriculum of our sen-:ior IT:i.gh schoo1s in ar'"=~as such as computer education, rna t:hema U. c s, science, and technology education. No. 1.1 (Afternoon) R3

A 11 Lighthouse School 11 , Mr. Speaker, ~ill allow a school district to experiment with and develop expertise. in teaching methodologies involving computer technology. Meaningful ways of integrating the use of computers into the curriculum and the learning process will be identified, and through a cooperative, collaborative process, school districts lAiil1 be able to share the knowledge and expertiS(:1 that is developed. The professional education of teachers will be enriched, and the level of relevant, learning experiences for students. using computer technology, will be enhanced. My Department, Mr.

Speaker, will contribute over $1.7 million in hardware and software for the establishment of these 11 LighthousE! Schools 11 • Each school district in the Province will be given the opportunity t~ participate . Mr. Speaker. 'in conjunction tAli th the regular curriculum review process, my Department will stimulate the integration of computers into the mathematics and science cu1nriculum. The necessary computer interface connections and software, as well as sensor devices, will be provided to schools p~rticipating in the pilot project for Physics 2204-, beginning in the 1990-91 school year.

As well. a number of comprehensive senior high school mathematics software packages will be purchased and field tested in a small number of schools. These initiatives, Mr. Sp~aker, are an indication that this Government gives high priority to a level of E!Xcellence in computer education, mathematics and science as suggested in the Task Force Report on Mathematics and Science. LLt . Mar· c h 2 7 , 1 9 9 0 Vol XLI Mr. Speaker, I· am VE:1ry pl•:?.ast:•d that we can provide this amount of money ($1.'7 rnill·ion) as p<:u·t of a long range program for providing adequate numbers of computers for our schools. Mr.

Speaker, another ini.t.iative I t.uould like to mention as a result of the extremely positive rE!SUlts of the Distance Education Pilot Project initiated by the former Administration. As a result oF the increasing cost-effectiveness of the project. and the overwhelming requests from school districts for additional sites, I am pleased to announce that my Department will expand the Pilot Project in the 1990 -1991 school year in the follot.uing tAJays: ( 1) The third rnathernaU cs courSE! Advaoced Mathematics 3201 - will be ~vailable through Distance Education.

(2) Ten n~='l.U sites tAr:i.ll be added. bringing the nurnbe r of small or rE:Hnote s choo 1 s bet ng served by Distance Education to a tot. a 1 of t hi r t y i n a-11 par t s o f the Province. These sites will be chosen in consultation with Telemedicine and TE TRA - the agencies providing the communications highway for Distance Education. (3). Mr. Speaker, Development of learning resources for Physics 2204, French 2100 and FJ~ench 2101 tAJi .J.l. bE:1 initiated during the 1990-1991 school year. with a 'l:.E!nat.iVE! 'irnplementa t.ion date of Sep tE:'rnber, 1991. The expansion of ll"w Dist.anCE!

Ed u c a ti on Pro j e c t tAli 11 provide students in 1nuraJ. N~~wfound1ancl and Labrador I Alit h s t ron g e r e d u c a l: ion a 1 backgrounds to participate in careers requiring a high level of competence in mathematics, sc :iE!nCE:! and French. Mr . Speaker, through initiatives No. 11. (Aften10on) R4

such as these, the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador clearly demonstrates a commitment to providing greater equality and excellence in education during the 1990 1 S. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hE!ar! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Member for Humber East . MS VERGE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . MI~. SpE!aker, on behalf of the Official Opposition I would like to b~~gin by thanking the Mird.stE!r For sending our office a copy of his statement one and a half hou1ns or two before his delivering it in the House. I appreciate that courtesy.

The Minister has just made two good announcements for education in our Province and I am glad the students and teachers from I.J. Samson School are in the galleries to hear the announcements. His second announcement is a continuation and strengthening of a progressive initiative by the previous Progressive Conservative Administration which some of us in the Opposition now, were pleased to be part of. As l:he Minis ·t.:er has acknowledged that initiative t.uas begun a couple of y~~a1ns ago, actually wh~~n my co11eague the Member for St. Mary 1 s ·- The Capes was Minister of Education.

It involves using rnoclc:~rn tr~chnoloqy which has been perfected at MernOI"ial University 1night here in St. John 1 s, using Distance Education to deliver courses to students in small schools, I r -,) March 27, 1990 Vol XLI --. isolated from thE! Province. the main cente1ns So tAle 'in Opposition are glad Lhe Government has start and is expanding it. ag1need woith continuing it of the I'H;!W 0 ur· and The first <-lnnouncemE!I1t of the Minister involves Department funding for some schools in the Province to acquire computer technology, hardware and soft:lAJare.

We CE!Intainly IJJE:~lcornr:! that development. hot.ueVE!r. IAIE! have sorne questions about just hoiAJ it is going to be done and about thE• financial implications for school boards. The Minister 1 s statement did not make clc:HH' on IAJhat basis t:he Departrnent 1 s funding would be providod.

He usos l.:he VE:~Inbs, 1 contribute 1 and talked about · school boards 1 paJntic:ipal:'inq 1 • It is important for boards and othors involved and concerned in education to know whether this funding IAJi.11 be rnade avai.1able on t h e b a s i s of 1 o·o p e r· c E! n t f u n d i n ~~ f1nom the Departmc:~nt, or IAJhE!ther :i.t will require cost-sharing on the part of boards. if they <H'C:! to participate and benefit.

If boar·ds are call~:·d upon l:.o contribute any po1ntion of thE• c.ost, then they t.~d. ll be s l:I"aPFH~d to pa1nticipat.e, sinCE! the netAI Budget brought down by the Minister of Finance a b'it:. more than a t.ueek ago, cuts Covc:~r-nlllE!nt operating granLs to school boards. Th:is year school boai"ds t.hr·oughou t our PI"ov:incE:' to~d'.l I hav~~ less purchasing power !.:han they d:id last YE:'ar. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MS VERGE: 'iiii'r~ ....... -..... s .. rE'· a k E! in • the Budget Speech No. 11 (Afternoon) RS

announc«::'d that there tAJould be a 4 . per cent increase in per pupil operating grants to school boards . What the. Budget Speech failed to mention is that the number of pupils will be smaller - we have declining enrolments. What the Budget Speech also failed to mention is that the per pupil money is only one component of the complicated . formula for determining total operating grants to school boa!"ds, and al1 the other components of the formula are being frozen. The I1E!t changE! in operating grants to school boards for this year, compared to last year, is the sma1lest ever, to my knowledge.

It is only 0.7 per c•:~nt and that is versus the Government's projected inflation rate of 4 per cent. So this corning year, school boards throughout our Province tAJi.ll have less spending power than thE!Y did last year. Therefore, if the Minister's ltghthouse school initiative is going to require cost-sharing on the part of boal"d s, many oF them u.Ji.ll find it impossible to participate. SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! I remind the han. Member again, her time has expired . MS VERGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I will sum up by welcoming the announcements of the Minister and urging him to reconsider the Budget provision For operating grants to school boards, and try to pursuadE! his colleagues to match the money Flow with the rhetoric and to provide sufficient funding for· quaJ.ity education this L6 Mar·ch 27, 1990 Vol XLI corrd.ng year·. Thank you . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hl~ar! MR. R. AYLWARD: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Kilbr·JdE! on a point of order. MR. R. AYLWARD: Mr.

Speaker, I have hu1"e on illY desk a statement th<:-lt: L~Jas supposE!cl to be made today, dated today, by the han. the Min'i.stE•r of Wot"ks, Services and Transportation (Mr. Gilbert). He did not seem to want to get up on his Feet. r do not know for what reason that he is ashamed to announce this report that has been given out by the Federal Government on the ye~~ around selnviCE! to Argen-tia. Ml". Speaker, if he wishes me l~o announce it the same as I dtd fol" -11 i s poi n t s y s t E! m I tAd.11 be q u i. t e gJ.ad to do that. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. R. AYLWARD : Mr.

Speaker, this ts a ver·y important r.::~pot"t, esp.::~d .a11y as tt. affects the towns of Port aux Basques, and the Town of Argentia. MR. SPEAKER : Order, ph~ase! lhere is no point of order. If the Minister does not lAJant l~o rnab~ the statement then he does noL have to make the statement, (inaudible). AN. HON. MEMBER : A good try, boys! MR. AYLWA~D: Mr . Speaker, to finish up Lhat: No. 11 (Afl:.!:>.l"noon) 1~6

point of order I just thought that the hon. the Minister FoJ"get and I was trying· to remind him. He did l:his before for another statement one time last yea~ and it neuer tAJas announced. So I just t .... Jant.ed to remind the Minister if he is ready to do it, we are ready to respond to it:. MR. SPEAKER: Order, plE~ase! There is no point of order . Oral Questions MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon.. . the LeadE:11" of the Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I haue a quesU.on fo1n thE:1 Premier.

I refer the Premier to page:1 7 of the Ministerial Statement he made in this House in No'uernber of 1989, whe'n he:' announced his new constitutional initiatiues hE! would take, I think a day or two after the First Ministers' ConFerence in Nouember. I would like to quote to the PlnE!rnieln frorn his statement, and lest he accuses me oF not quoting at all or only quoting part of it, it is not uery long, I will r·ead t.he JJ.Jhole paragraph.

The Premier said the following: 'The Gouernment further belieues that urgent conside:>ration must b~=:! giuen to opening up the Constitutional Reform process to allow for meaningful public debate and the full participation of the people of Canada in deciding these important issues. Th:i.s was also emphasized by both the Manitoba Task . Force and the Net .... J Brunst .... ri.ck L7 March 2'7, 1990 . Vol XLI Select Committee.

Of particular interest is the Manitoba recommendation, that public h C:' a r· i n g s be he id at t. he Fed e r· a 1 and Prouincial leuels of Gouernment after the First Ministers deuelop a proposal for constitutional change, and prior to the signing of the proposed constitutional change. fhe Task Force fuJ"ther l"E!COITIITIE!nds t.hi;d:. if a Prouince chooses not to hold further· heaJ"ings, t:hE!n the FE!deJ"a1 Gouen11nE:1nt shou1d hold heaJ"ings within that ProuinCE! to giu~::~ thE:! Public the opportunity to participate in constitutional Jneform. 1 Mr.

SpE:1akE:1r, that .is the full t:E!Xt of a para~]raph frorn the Prc':!miE!In' s stab:!JI'lent of Nouember. Could I ask the Premier, Mr. Speaker, whether or not he holds that same uiew, today? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Prr:Hnier . PREMIER WELLS: Yes . MR. RIDEOUT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leadf:!ln or~ thE! Opposition . MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

In the New Brunswick cons ti tu t io nal propos c\1 J"E! c ~:! n Lly tabled in the New Brunswick Legislatur'C:', rnacle publ·ic 1<:-lst. t .... lePk I belieue it lAJas, Sectj.on 1~6. 1 of that particular document has the following clause: 'No measure re1at.ing to an amendment to the Const:.itut:ion of Canada 1nay be adopted by the House of Commons or l:.he LE•g:islatiue ASSI:!rnbly of a Pr·ouince, puJnsuant to SE!Cti.ons 3B, 41, 43, LD.l, or 46; un1ess public No. 11 (AftE!r'noon) WI

hearings in relation thereto are first held by the House of Commons or Legislative Assr::Hnbly as the case might bE!. 1 .Ml" . SpE:1aker, I would like to ask the Premier whether or not he could tell the House if he agrees with the essence of that particular provision contained in the New Brunswick proposal. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER WELLS: For anything that was of sign if i can c e , yes .

If it IJJa s j us t a minor amendment that affected only grammatical structure or corrected some error that everybody agreed upon, just a sort of routine thing that was not contentious in the country, I do not think such proposals would need to have wide open public debate. But anything that was major and significant, like the Meech Lake Accord, for example, I would agree that ·that is essentially an appropriate approach . What the Premier of Ne1.~.1 Brunswick is suggesting is that there be explicit provision in the Constitution to provide for it.

I IJJould have to give that some thought, as to whether that was the appropriate approach, but basically, . as a matter of principle, I agree there should be such he<:irings, yes. MR. SPEAKER: rhe han . the Leader of the Opposition . MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr . Speaker . I thank the Premier. So the Premier agrees with the Manitoba recommendation and the New Brunswick recommendation. L8 Mal"ch 27, 1990 VoJ.

XLI In view of the fact that the Prime Minister and Uw GoVE!r'nfriE!nt of Canada have · rehH'I~ed NC:~w Brunswick 1 s constitutional proposals in particular, or are about to refer, I guess, as of today, to a House of Commons Cornrni ttee, express J.y for· thE• purpose of having public hear·.ings, could the Prr::'rniE!r tE<l.l the:• HouSE! whether or not he agrees with that process which the Federal Government is undertaking in regard to the New Brunswick proposa1s? MR. SPEAKER: ThE! hon. the PrerniE!r. PREMIER WELLS: I t i s h a r· d t o s a y .

I t.~.li.ll IAkl i t. t o see what the Pr:irne Minis tE•r says today. I do not knoiAJ IAJhE! ·t.her· l:.hE! Prime Minister is just playing games t.~.lith it, or 'if he 'is ser·ious. Is he seriousJ.y put.l".:tn~~ it forward as a proposal that the Federal Go v e rnrnent is going to support? I do not know. Maybe we will fin<;! out morE! today. If h~~ is, then it. IJJould have sorne significancr;;~.

But if hE• is j u~>t sort of using it to play political games with it and try to divert attention, or covt~r t.hE! fact that they proceeded with the Meech Lake Accord as it is without pub l'ic l1earings, then reaJ.ly it doe s not achieve very rnuch in t:hat sense. I think what IAJoulcl be niOI"e significant is to hold a full ­ scale First Ministers 1 Conference or some other constitutional convention, where representatives of the provinces could state clearly their positions and that could be rnade knOIAII1 l:.o the entt1ne public of the country. I thtnk l:hat would be a more valuable and more effective approach.

WE! wi.11 haVE! to wait and SeE! i.f IJJhat l::he Prime Minister is doing has any really depth or sincerity to it. No. 11 (Afternoon) 1~8

MR. SPEAKER: ThE! han. th~::1 Leader of t:.h1::1 Opposition . MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is interesting to see how the Prr:1mier on one hand. when it suits his mode, wants everybody to cool th~::1 constitutional rhE:1toric and deba·te issues, but, then, t.uhen it suits his other fancy. the Prr:Hnier· triE:1S to ".impute motives and cast aspersions on other people who are trying to get on with this process. Mr.

Speaker. in the past we have congratulated this Government on the initiative it brought in early in its mandate, for example, on the Legislative Revi1::>W Committees, whereby important and significant pieces of legislat.ton coltl:ing before this House is referred to Legislative Review Committees for public hearings and for public input ..

In vtew of the fact that the Constitution of our country is certatnly equally as important and. perhaps. in most cases. mor·e important than any given pieCE! of legislation, and in view of the fact that the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador has now tabled before this Legislature a rescinding resolution along with a revised constitutional proposal I remind the Prr:'rnieln. although I am sure he knows. that the proposal tabled in this Legislature by him last Thursday is revised. in some cases. over the proposal he tabled last November. so there havE:1 bE:1~::1n some chang(~S and. therefore. it has been a revised proposal.

To bE! consist.E!nt, Ml". Speaker, with the stated posit".ion of the Premier in pubLic hear·ings and other jur".isdictions, would the Pr~:!rni E· r te 11 'the House tAJh~::1the r· or· L9 March 27, 1990 Vo 1 X L.I not he would be prepared to strike a S e 1 E! c t. Co rnr11.i. t t e e of Ud. s H o u s E! and to refer his constitu~ional resolution and ~ds const'i.t.ut:i.onal proposal, his revised proposal, to that Standing Comm".itt.ee for the purpose of hold".ing publ".ic hearings? MR. SPEAKER: Th·e--110~---th e P r 1'::11TI i e r . PREMIER WELLS : That is WOI"th thinking about, Ml". Speaker.

I would ask rny Cabinet coll~~agues t.o consider that and g:i.VE! it sornE! thought. It has nothing to do wit. h l he o t. her 1n E! so 1 u t. i. on t. hat :i. s before the House for rescission. That will proceed 'i.n any event. But oncE! the rescJ.ss-.i.on tah~s place, maybe it tAJ:.i.lJ b~:! of sonJ(:! . merit to put it bE!I~olne bE!fOlne a Select Committee and hold hearings. I would certainly be prepared to consider that.. I a1n hesitant to givo an ansu.JE!r riqht now. Such a cornm:i.ttee would be an expensive prop6sition.

If the proposal is not J.ikEdy to I'IJE:•,:d:. with the approval· of QUE!bec or the Federal Government, then proceeding in l~hat t.uay 111ay be just sort of a hollow or ernpty gesture, but I would certainly be pi~E!pal"ed to provide the maximum level of opportunity for its full discussion. MR. SPEAKER: rhe han. the LedciE!r oF l: h 1::1 Opposition . MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, it seems to rne t.hat it t.~Jould be quJte appl"opriate t.o have the resolution and the alternate constitutional proposal of the PreiTlier go l~o a Cornrnit.t:ee for pubJ:i.c ~H~ad.ngs fir·st. That is what we do with major issues.

No. 11 (After·noon) 1~9

In any event, Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the Premier tJ..Ii.ll have to a~mit that the vast of majority of Newfoundlanders, like the vast majority. of Canadians, say they do not even understand the Meech Lake Accord - according to polls, certainly the vast majority in Newfoundland and in Canada say they do not understand the Accord - and in view of the fact that the Premier has now brought a revised constitutional proposal before the House that the people of Newfoundland and Labrador have not even yet seen - it was only tabled in this House on Thursday, and in view of the fact that people, therefore, are not aware of some of the provisions of the Premier's revised position, and in view of the fact that the Premier is proposing, perhaps, at some dab~· to as I< people to participate in a referendum on this issue, would the Premier not agree that there must- be public hearings held on his proposals so that people can become informed, get involved in thE! process, and that these must be held now?

MR. SPEAKER: The han . the Premier. PREMIER WELLS: There are SE!Veral questions there, so it rnay take some t.:ime to answer, Mr. Speaker. One is, would it not be appropriate to put the proposal and the Notice of Motion to rescind before thE• Legislature? rhe anstJJer is, no. It would be entirely appropriate to put the proposal before a committee to hold hearings throughout the ProvinCE! befor·e we ask the Legislature to approve it..

But what. tJJe want to do wH :h LlO March 27, 1990 Vol XLI the motion to rescind is to put Newfoundland in precisely the same position as Manitoba and N(;•t;..J Brunswick, and take Newfoundland out of the ter-rible position thE! former Government put it in when it passed the resolution without hearings . Now, Mr. Speaker, v.Jhal": t~.Je int:E!nd by that is to go back to v.JhE:>r'E! tJ..Je were, properly. What we are saying in the rE!SOJ.ution, Mt". Speaker, is that we tJJould not s'''e it passed by this House without an appropriate level of input from the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. Now, the hon.

M<: '!lrtber· oppos ·i te suggests that that be by public hearings. I have no quat"r1:>l tJJi l:h t h a t , e x c E! p t t h a t t h e t :i rn E! f o r' tt. is getting kind of nat"rOtAJ at Lhe moment. What we at"E! sayJ.n~1 is IAJC::' are prepa1"1~d to subrn·it it to the ultimate public hearing, a referendum of the people of this Province. That is the ultimate in public say. AN HON. MEMBER: Call an election. see . PREMIER WELLS : Then v.Je u..r.i 11 I would be very happy to do so. Please do not tE•rnpt rnE! . If hon.

Members Opposite want. a t"eferendum by TnE!ans of E•lr:~ction, I arn quit.E• prepared to consider that too. Mr. SpeakE!r, thE!re V.Jas anothr::•r' comment the Leader of the OpposiU .on tTif.ldr::•. I think ~w said a vast majority . of the people of­ this Province do not understand the Meech Lake Accor·d. What l:he polls said about ttJJo, or· thrE:'e months, or four months ago, was about 75 per cent of the people expldinc::~d t.hat they did not. rt'al1y understand the issUE:'S involvE!cl in No. 1.1 (Afl:er·noon) 1no

the Met~ch Lake Accord. That has been diminishing. It is down now, in the lat.est pol1 lAJe hav€:! seen, to 52 per cent who say they do not understand it and 4'1· per· CE!nt who say they understand it sufficiently well to make a decision. But th€H'e is something else, Mr. SpE!aker. As the number of people who understand it increase, the number of people who oppose it increases,, also. Do not ever forget that. Mr. Speaker, t.he fot"mer Governrn.::1nt satJJ fit to ram this through this House without any public hearings. We want to bring the peoph~ of Newfoundland back to a position where they can have a say.

And if hon. M1:~mbers Opposite feel, once the recision has taken place, that any great advantage can be gained by having public hearings throughout the Province, we would certainly b.::1 prepared to consider that. We fEH:!l, however, that the ulti.rnate public input of a referendum in the present circumstances is the proper way to do it, because, Mr. Speaker, it is academic unless Manitoba also approves. So we think we are proceeding in the proper way. MR. RIDEOUT: A supplementary, Mr. speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of th€:1 Opposition on a supplementary . MR. RIDEOUT: Mr.

Speaker, let mE! say to the Premier that the reason governments blame things on previous administrations is that there is only one other choice. That is ·the r~;!ason govet"nrrtl":~nts blame things on previous governments and previous admin:i .strattons. thE!re. is no other chooice but: to do l~hat or blame oit L.ll Mar'ch 27. 1990 Vol XLI on oneself . Speaker. Thc'lt. is the fact.. Mt" . Mr.

Speaker, whil<'! the Pr.::Hnier tnay fly high today and continue to fly high for another nurnbet" of days. befon1 this issue is finished t.hE! people of Newfoundland and Labradot" wi11 s~;!e thE:1 cuJ.pt"it Lh(:• Premier of this Provinc1::l is. So ride high! Enjoy it! But, Mt". Speaker. there is an E!nd corning to it, let me assure you. Mr. Speak~;:1r.

I am arnazed Lhe• Premier wouJ.d want to proceed with a rescinding t"esolut.ion, t.he likes of which has nevE•r been donE! in this country before, withouL referring the resolution and the accompanying alternate constitutionaJ. proposals l:.o l .. he people of NewfoundJ.and and Labrador' for pubJ.:ic input ancl pubJ.ic scruttny. Is Lhe Premier saying to this House that he J.acks the confidence in h".is proposals to go before th~;:~ people in a forum where ~hey can respond - he has never done that, Mr'. Speaket" --· to his proposals?

Does he lack thE! confidence in his proposals to take those out l:.o the PI~Ople r:or public input befot"E• he r'aiJIS thf:•nt through this House, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the Premier . PREMIER WEI LS: That also is a multiple commentary and question that needs some addressing, Mr. Speaker. To begin wtth, thois suggestion that this is a thing that has never been d6ne before and this Government is doing it without holding publtc hearings, let me set the record straight, Mr. S~eaker. The Fact is these amendments Lo the Constitution are something Lhat was never done No. 1.1. (A f' Lernoon) R ll

before, and the former Government put those through without any public hearings. How hypocritical! Mr. Speaker,

section 46 - MS VERGE: You campaigned on it. PREMIER WELLS : Yes, I campaigned on it, but Members Opposite were too afraid of the issue to take it up. To the point, M1n. Speaker, where one voter, at least, wrote a letter to the editor and said, Because of the position of the Progressive Party, and I have bE!en a Conservative all my life, I supportE!d the P. C. s, this time, to save to Newfoundland and Canada, I must vote Liberal because of Meech Lake. There were numerous, numerous references. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I want to point out to hon.

Members again the difficulty at deciding when the Premier has answered the question. The Premier has been responding to side questions. I ask the Premier to get on with the answer so that we can have more questions. The hon. the Premier . PREMIER WELLS: With all those si1ly side que:~stions that distractE!d me, Min. Spei:lkc:!r, I kind of lost the th1nust of the question. AN HON. MEMBER : It was not much of a question . PREMIER WELLS: Ll2 Mar·ch 27, 1990 Vol XLI It was not much of a question? I was correcting some misstatement about the -- SOME HON. MEMBERS: Public hearings.

PREMIER WELLS: No, about hav:ing the pub'l·.ic hearing. Now, Mr. Speaker, what we arE! going to do is put Newfoundland and Labradol" in the position the Province ought to haVE! bE~EHl at l::he time when a public hear·ing ought to have been called, before the for·mer GovernnlE!nt r<:Will 'led l:.hc:! resolution through. So we are going to put Newfoundland and Labrador back in that position. Then we wi.11 consider, Mr.

Speaker, whether it is desirable to go through l:he exponSE! oF public hearings in the present circumstances, or whether t:h~;:~ rnost appropriate way is to go dirE•ctly to a referendum, the ull:trnate publi.c hE!alning. And we are prepared to consider eil:her proposal. It rnay have merit to go through a publ:i.c hearing. If it does, tAle tkd.Il certainly consider it. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Leader of Lhe Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker, let rne cor1"ect a piece of misinfor~ation given t:o this House by Uw Pr·ern:i.er .

The fact of the maLter is, when. the Meech Lake Accord was brought back to ·this House the then Opposition, under the leadership of now Mr. Justice Bai'TY, and th~'! NDP under the leadership of Mr. Fenwick, supported the Meech Lake Accord. No. ll. (Aft.E~r'rlOOn) R:l.2

Plus all Governments in Canada, Mr. Speaker. MR. SIMMS: Right on. MR. RIDEOUT: Plus all political Canada. Can that be Mr. Speaker? MR. SIMMS : parties in said today, It is not the same situation . MR. RIDEOUT: It is not the same situation at all today, Mr. Speaker. NotAl, Mr.

Speaker, in vietAJ of ·Uw fact that the majority of Newfoundlanders - I ask the Premier this again - like the maj or·tty of Canadians, indicate that they do not understand the provisions of the Meech Lake Accord, and thr:~y have not had any opportunity to get to understand t .he provisions of the revised proposal the Premier tabled in this House only a week ago, and in view of the fact that public hearings tAJould, by definition, at. least give the people an opportunity to be able to participate, ask questions, assimilate information, get to know the issue inside and out, so that the people of the Province if l:hey have to at some point, as the Premier is proposing to ask them, participate:~ in a rE!fE!r~O!ndum would at least participate in a referendum knowing all the facts and knotAJing what i.s at stake in l:his part.icular business, does l:he Premier not agree that public hearings beforehand, public hearings now, public hearings beginning today in view of the few weeks that are left, would add immensely to l:.his process and would give the people of thts Province an opportunity to L.1.3 Mar'c h 27·, 1990 Vol XLI participa l:e?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han . the Prernir:~r . PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, either public hearings of the kind l:hr:~ hon. the Leader of the Opposition speaks of or some oth(!r' method: t.he han. the Leader of the OpposiU .on spE!aking around the Province, my speaking around thr:~ Pl~ovince, a variety of other proposals; we could do it through television programming, any numb1::!r of lAJays could be used and it may LIJE!l1 be that a publ:i .c hearings process through a Committee of the Legis]ature may be a good way to do it.

But I point out that a public hearings process of t.he LegislahtJ~e is desigm~d in l:he main to . get a feedback from the people, not to providt=:! inFonnat·ion out, something like a First Ministers 1 Conference, where open public debate in thE! nation L\Jou1cl l'li?lp get ·infoJ"mat::i.on out. Whal-. L<Ji:> tAJant to do to rnE!E~t tho conceJ~n of the Leader of the Opposil:ion, ·is to get informati.on oul: so people tAli ll u nd e rs 'ti:tnd . NotAl, we lAI-L 11 take a look at l:.hat.. WE:! are, i.n fact, now taking a look al:. hoLIJ tAlE! can most effectiVE!J.y do that..

It. cannot most effectively be done by public hE•arings. MR. SIMMS : That is not what you said in Novr:~mber . PREMIER WELLS : Yes, it is. PubJic hearings can · Jnos l. efFectively provide fo1~ Feedback from the public r'a LhE!r Lhan No. 1.1. (A·fternoon) Rl3

information out, so we are taking a look at how we can most effectively ensure that we get information out. Now, there are two issues here: One is rescission of this existing approval that was rammed through by the former Government without any public hearings. We are going to put things back to normal. We will then decide whether or not public hearings are necessary afterwards.

Frank1y, I wou1d fee1 that once an effort is made to get maximum information out to the people of this Province, so they can judge it on their ot.un, then the ultimate pubJ.ic response could be thl"ough a rE!ferendurn rather than pubJ.ic hearings. But I do not close my mind to public hearings. I am quite prepared to constder that. But, in tel"ms of informing the people, it is not the best method of doing it. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT: ·Thank you ·:··-Mr. Speaker. Again, I must cor1"ect a piece of misinformation, no doubt throt.un out by the Premier for obvious reasons.

When that debate took place on the MeE!Ch Lake Accord in this Hous.::1, my recollect.ton is that every Member of the Opposition participated in it. MR. SIMMS: Right on! MR. RIDEOUT: There were amendments put down, Mr. Speaker. Some participated two or three times. Practically every Government Member participated. The debate went on almost a month. L. 1. 4· Mar·ch'2'7, 1990 VoJ. XLI MR. SIMMS : That is right . MR. RIDEOUT: So much for ramming it through. And the Premier, Mr .

Speaker, had thE! gall to insult this House by telling the media yesterday, "in Corner Bl"ook, Oh, a we~~k's dE!bate might be enough; four or Five days might be enough, when there uJas a month of debate back in 1988. Now, Mr. Speaker, lr:d: ITI~~ ask l:hE• Premier this: The Premier says public hearings is not the appropriate manner in which to solicit public input into J.egtslat:i.on or·, in this caSE!, thE! constitutional resolution. He said it is not thE! bE!St VE!~d.cJ.~:· lkr.ith which to do that. Mr . SpeakE!r, one of !:.he primE!

Udngs public hearings and public input couJ.d do would be to scrutinize the proposals of tl·1e Prl':Hrrir:!r and the Government, to make suggestions as to where, perhaps, they cou1d be impr'OVE!d. Now, is the Premier taking the positicin that his suggestions are written in stone, that they cannot be improved? And would he not, therefore, want his proposals to go to public hear'i.ngs and pubJic scrutiny, if, for no oLher rE!ason, than to hope thE!Y can bE! th~~ best: that mankind and t.uornankind can, at the end of the day, invent? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, h!':1ar! MR. SIMMS: Personkind. MR.

RIDEOUT: p e r's"a"i1' k i. n cf ~ .. PREMIER WELLS: He a1rnost got in troubJ.e t.u:l.t:.h Lh~:! Member for Humber East . No. :1.1 (Afternoon) rn4

MR. SPEAKER: The han. ~he Premier . PI~EMIER WELLS : Min. Speaker, I do not knOIAJ what ".it takes to make it clear to the Leader of thE! Opposition. We are talking about two things here. We are talk".ing about one, the resolution to rescind; second, and separate, the al ternaU.VE! p1noposal of the Government. MR. SIMMS: "fti5""'aii in the one resoluU.on. PREMIER WELLS : No, it is not. It is not! is no resolution There AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudtble) order. thE!re. PREMIER WELLS : It. is a11 The Members opposite do not know that what is attached is not the Government 1 s 1nesolution, it is the MN~ch LakE!

Accord in its original form. They have not read it! They do not even know what the 1nesolution says! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER WELLS : That is not the Order Paper. This is l:he Olnder Paper. Mr. Speak€~r, it is no wonder they are in a fog, they do not even rea1ize that what is attached to the 1nesolution is not the Government 1 s alternative. What is attached to the resolution is the Meech Lake Accord in its original form. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hE•ar! MR. 'MATTHEWS: You are out We have only of your started, Ll.5 March 27, 1990 skin toddy. and you are Vol XLI out of your skin a1ready . MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! PREMIER WELLS: Now, Mr. SpeakE!r, lE!t rnE! just try to make it clear so that this will probably answer it. The GoVE!rnrnE!nt ag1nees that i.f IAJe are ever going to be in a positi.on where the Governrnent 1 s proposal, which is contained in l":he second column - the Mee•ch Lab~ Accord, as i'l: t.uas originally, is in t.he Fir·st column of this parnphlet -.. thE'! second column is the GovEH'nrnenl: 1 s proposal, and IAJhat is Jn thE! resolution is the Meech Lake Accor·d as it E•xtsts notAJ. What IAJE! are saying, Mr.

SpE:~aiuH', is that we are proposing that the Meech Lake Accord, as i ·t. :Ls, be applnovecl only upon the approval of the majority of the people of this Province, or thE! rnaj o1nity · of the pecip1e of Canada. If tAle geL to the point where we are going to consider the ~eech Lake alternative that the Government of Newfoundland and · Labrador proposes, then I agree with the Leader of the Opposition, public hearings would be an appropriate course to follow. AN HON. MEMBER : How are we going to get time to do that? PREMIER WELLS : We will get time. If that is going to proceed, there is no June 23 time limit.

That is imaginary. MR. RIDEOUT: (Inaudible) ttme after June 23 . PREMIER WELLS: We wil1 see . MR. TOBIN : No. 1 1. ( Af'l:<"!l~noo

n) r~ 1 :-,

Your dream will come true. will all be Americans. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: order, please! PREMIER WELLS: We If the House is going to be asked to consider the Government 1 s proposal as an alternative and express approval of it, we intend to have public hearings on the issue throughout this 'Province so that people can have an input. In the meantime, we will be taking steps to ensure, to the maximum extent we can, that the people of this Province are as fully informed as they can be about the contE!nt of the Meech Lake Accord as it is. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Member for Humber East.

MS VERGE: Thank-yo-u, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Premier, also. When we in the Official Opposition read the Premier 1 s resolution recinding the Meech Lake Accord last week, tJJe had some immediate questions about its legality; we had questions about the legaJ.:ity of bypassing the House of Assembly in the referendum process. Since then, we have consulted constitutional legal experts and -these experts have expressed serious doubts about the constitutional validity of' l:he Prernier 1 s resolution, precisely the resolution printed on this Order Paper.

My questions arE!: What ts the Prerni"=~r 1 s view of these doubts? Does he have any concerns about the constitutional validity of his resolution? Since L.1.6 Mar·ch 27, 1990 Uo l XLI he purports to be cautious and prudent in his approach to serious matters such a~ these, has he sought any independent legal advice on these doubts? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Pr~~1nier. PREMIER WELLS: I have had consultations tAli th other lawyers knOIAJledgeabl.e in the constitutional f'.ield about this matter. Mr .

Speaker, my OlAJn vir::!tAJ of it at the momE!nt is that it is a red herring that the Opposi ·tion have tried to raise to cast some doubt on it. You SE!e, Ml". Speaker, there '.is no delegati.on of the authority of thE! LE!g:i.s1at~tH'E•, and, to begi.n with, the Legislature has the authority to delegate authority if '.it wishes. The Legislature delegates authority in half the statutes that we pass; we delegate authority to some body or another ~o do something or make decisions.

We also, in all of l:.he statutes that exiit at the moment, have numerous instances of provision where an appt~oval. is to be given or Lui thheld, or ac t'ion is to be taken 01~ not taken upon t.he happening of a certain event. And that is pE!rfectly nonnal. So IJJE:' have provided here that upon l:.he happening of a positive approval '.in a referendum, th1:!11 the appro1.Jal of the Legislature, which is spelled out ·- the appl~oval is given not by thE! rE!fE!rE!ndurn, not by the people, the approval is given by thE! House.

Because what:. the resolution actually says is that the Governor General be author'.ized upon the happen'.ing of onE! or other of these E!Vents, and in the event of that, then it is deernE!d to have occurred. Approved of this House ·- not of thE! people but approval of this House - or authorization of this House as is No. 11. (Aftr:'r'noon) r~ :1.6

required under the Act would come immediately. Constitution into play In any event, Mr. Speaker, I have no concern, because should it be necessary, I have no quarrel undertaking that the han. Members who sit on this side of the House would quite willingly do whatever was necessary to reaffirm, in accordance tAiith the wishes of thl~ people of this Province, approval given, or fail to do it if that was in accord with the wishes of the people of this Province. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER : Question Period has expired . SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave!

Notices of Motion PREMIER WELLS : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier . PREMIER WELLS : Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entit.J.ed 11

An Act To Authorize Certain Agreements Betwe•"ln The Government Of The Province And Other Parties Respecting The Future OperaU.on Of The Corm•r Brook NE!Wsprint MiJ.l. 11 Petitions MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker . 1_17 March 27, 1~)90 Vol XLI MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Leader of t he Opposition. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hr:1ar, hea1n! MR. RIDEOUT : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, today in thJs House we gave the Premier every opportunity, in response to sev~;:1ral Oral Ques t.ions, to indicate to the people of this Province his commitment to hold public head.ngs in NeiAJfound1and and Labrador on thE! lnE!SCindJ.ng resolution and on the aJ.ternate constitutional proposals that the Premier had laid before this House on two occasions now, first in November 1989 and aga'.i.n on Mar'ch 22, just passed. Mr. Speaker, the prayE:1r of Lhe petition that. I am pr'eSE!nt.ing today is this: the pE!U.t.ion· of the undersigned residents of St.

John 1 s: - we are pJ.eased that the Government has introduced a practice of holding cornnd.tt.E·~:· hearings on proposed legislation and that this is a welcome reform. That the level of pubLic knowledge about the Meech Lake Constitutional Accord and the present. const:i.tutiona1 position of the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador is quite loiAJ, as evidenced by various public opinion poJ.ls. Therefore your petitioners urgE! the Goverrlllwnt or= NelAJfoundland and Labrado1n to rE!fE!r the resolution to rescind Meech Lake and thE!

GovE•rnrnen t 1 s OlAJI1 constitutional position to a select cornrnit.-.tE!E' of Uw HousE! of Assembly of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. NOIAJ' v E·r·y Mr. Speaker, l~hat basic pE•tition. No. 11 (After·noon) to rne w~:! is a hew e Rl'l

attempted to gE!t from thE! Premier today what he has said in this House on previous occasions, that there ought to b~ public input. And, Mr. SpE!aker, thE~ Premier somehow or other tries to make the vast jump between the difference between public input now before we take the unprecedented plunge of rescinding a resolution that was a constitutional resolution, Mr. Speaker, that tJJas approved by this House in another life of another Legislature. When I asked the Premier, Mr.

Speaker, two or t.hr·ee weeks ago, fit~st Lo.Ji'lE!n tJJe opened, whE! ther therE! had bE!en any pr(:~cedence of this nature that he could refer to, whether any othE!r' legislature in Canada, Provincial or otherwise had approved a constitutional amendment, had approved a constitutional resolution, and then had moved, after another Parliament had been elected, to rescind ·that approval? I asked hirn that in this Legislature, Mr. Speaker, three or four weeks ago. And the Pr(:~mier as is usual tried t:o get off, Mr. Speaker, wil:h telling half a truth.

The Premier tried to befuddle and hoodtAJink the people of Newfoundland and Labrador that somehow or other what we are doing in this Legislature or starting to do as of today was the same process that followed out of the Victoria Conference back in the early 1970s. In fact, he quoted it. He quoted the Victoria Conference and the Victoria formula that flowed out of that Conference as the precedent to support what he is beginning or trying to begin to do here today. And wh1:;!n I reminded the Premier, Mr.

Speai<E:~r, that the Vic- ·toria formula was nE!Ver - puL to one sing1e Legislature in Canada, his U8 March 27, 1990 Vol XLI face dropped by a rni1e. BE! Cause he did not expect, Mr. Speaker as he refers tG us some tirnes as those stupid people in the Opposition -- to know. HE! d:id not expect, Mr. Speak(:~r. those people in the Opposition to know that the Victoria formula was scuttled befor(:~ it E!Ven got rE:!fE·J~rE!d to a Legislature. I suppose it is fair to say, Mr. Speaker, that the Victoria Formula was scuttled before it even got drafted into legal language.

The Meech Lake Accord was approved and then drafted into legal language and the First Ministers met and approv1:!d the foinal le:~gal dr'aft again some weeks after the all night session at MeE•ch Lake. ~3o, Mr. Speaker, by try:i_n~J to perpeLrate those half truths on the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, the Premi,:·r-· has l?.nsur'r ,>d that there has not been, and is continuing to ensure, tha l: the1 ~1?. will not be· any HIE!aningfuJ. public input to his alternatives.· That is what this resolution :is all about, Mr. Speaker.

It rescinds our prior approval and then a~;ks the people to consider the Premier's a1ternative. Mr. Speaker, I understand my t_jrnE! has elapsed . I ask that Lhe pE!ti tion be tabled and rE!fE!n'E•d to the Department to which it relates . SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Pr·~~rnier . PREMIER WELLS: have to of the st1ll Mr . Speaker', I guess · I explain it to the Leader Opposition again bE:!cause he does not understand. He finish1:>d his comments by saytng what this r·e·soluti.on does is asks No. 11 (Afl :e rnoon) Rl8

this House to rescind the existing approval and consider the Premier 1 s alternative, replace it with the Premier 1 s alternative. That is his position. The resolution does not do that. Read the resolution again. Well, they thought, Mr. Speaker, until they just discovered and were told and went into a panic a few minut.1C!S ago tJJhen they discovered that the

schedule attached to the 1nesolution is not the al tE!rnative being proposed by t:he Government. It is the original Meech Lake Accord. This resolution says nothing whatsoever about the Government 1 s alternative, absolutely nothing whatsoever about the Government 1 s alternative. What this resolution does is ttJJo things: it rescinds the existing approval of the Meech Lake Accord; then it authGrizes approval of the same Meech Lake Accord but only on condition that there is first, Mr. ·Speaker, a rE!ferendum of the people of this Province or alternatively ·Of the people of Canada.

It says nothing about this alternative and does not put it fotnward in any manner. It does not mention it in any manner what.soeVE!r. Now I hope the Leader of the Opposition has finally understood that. I knotAJ they got a shock w~11:~n they discoVE!I"ed that what tJJas attached was not thE! al t.E!rnative bEdng put forward by the Government but the Meech Lake• Accord as it is in its original form. So what we are doing, Mr. Speaker, is asking this Legislature to put the people of l~his Province back whE!re they should have bE!en wH:h an opportunity to have some say.

An opportunity for lhe pE!ople of I. 19 March 27, 1990 Vo 1 XLI this Province to haVE! somCo! say :l.n tAJhat happens, eithE!I" by a rE!ferendurn or by public hN"lrin~1s. What the former Government did was deprive them entirely of any opportunity to have any say and we, Mr·. Speaker, ar·e going to tr·y and correct that measure. I do not k notAl tJJhere:' that pe l:i tion carne from out of the blue, at thts last moment, but we will take a look at it. I can say, Mr. SpE!aker, that the GoVE!InniTIE!nt:. :i.s not disposed to anstJJI:!r the pray':'r of that petition. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Member for Humber East.

MS VERGE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker·, what thE! P1nerni~H' just: said confirms the tmpression of some keen observers of the polit.tcal scene tn our Prqvince. What the Premier is really all about in this constitutional process is ld11ing ME!E!Ch LakE!, not improving ~eech lake, it is killing Meech Lake. · SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear. h10~ar! MS VERGE: Surely. the Prern:ier cannot expect the House of Assembly and t:he pE!opJ.e of the Province l:o cancE!l our approval of l:he Meech Lake Accord without subst:ituting something for i.t. We cannot just tear down witho~t building up. Mr. Speaker.

I thought tJJhen the Premier tabled his resolutton accompanied by his proposals for alternatives last week, that he was taking a rE!sponsiblr:~ appr·oach to offering a subs l:.i t:.ute. But hE!re today ht~ is trying to j usti .fy No. l.l (Aft.1~1-:noon) I~ 19

an about-face on involving the public in the people 1 s constituticin by refusing to have public consultation through a select house committee holding hearings and involving the public on the rescinding resolution. Instead hr,~ is trying to split hairs. Lawyers are good at s p 1 itt in g hairs . B u t I wo u 1 d remind the Premier that he is not operating as a lawyer in this forum, he is operating as a politician responsible to all the people of the Province. Mr.

Speaker, it would be most irresponsible for any Member of this House of Assembly to contemplate rescinding The Meech Lake Accord, which the PremiE!r' is as king, wi t.hout having an alternative, without proposing improvements to the Meech LakE! Accord. Mr. Speaker, the Pr~Hnier has consistently faulted the Meech Lake Accord because of the ·process by · which it is arrived at. Mr. Speaker, despite the Premier 1 s preaching the impo~tance of the people being involved in developing thE! · people 1 s constitution, the Premier himself has acted quite differently although he tries to deny it.

The fact is that when he campaigned for election last Spring he steered clear of the constitution issue. In his campaign literature, in his brochures, in his T.V. ads, in the information he put out to the people by which the people judg ed him and his party, there was no indication of the Premier 1 s position on the Meech Lake Accord. He triE!d to rE!but that a week or two ago by saying that he did mention it in some intervietJJs. La Ler he tabled newspaper clippings. The appearance of what he tabled is L20 March 27, 1990 Vol XU that there were several clippings. When we got 'l:hE!fn and had a look at thE!m, Min.

Speaker, we discovered that the only Newfoundland and LabJnador papN' represented was the Western Star in Corner Brook. There was not one clipping from a St. John 1 s newspaper. All the others were mainland newspapers. And, Mr. Speaker, the readers of lhe Western Star, whether or not they had taken in the contents of those articles about the Premier 1 s position on Meech Lake did not see fit to elect: the Prt>rn:i.er in that Corner Brook (inaudible). Mr.

Speaker, I wholeheartedly support the prayer of this petition, which calls · for immediate striking of a Select Committee of this House to hold pub1ic hearings on the MeE!Ch Lake::! Accord, as well as the PrerniE!r 1 s proposals for alternatives. In this way the petitioners fE!el their level of knowledge about these vital constitutional issues will be enhanced. Mr. Speaker, in my E!Xperi.E!nCE! going around the Provtnct:' more and more people arE! ·thirsting fo1" information about the Meech Lake Accord. Several havE~ asi<E~d rne to send thern the Accor·d.

The public opinion polls reflect wide -spread lack of knot.~.Jledge about the Me~ :!ch Lak~:~ Accord and. J.t. sec,:•ms to n·1~:! that a House of Assembly select committee involving Members on both sides would be an ideal way - not the only way -- but an idr:: !a] l.1.1ay of putting out to the pub] :i.e more information about the constitutional issues. MR. SPEAKER : I would inform th E! hon. ME!Irlber that her time is up . MS VERGE : No . 11 (Af·leJnnoon) R20

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I would like to sum up by stating my support oF the prayer of this petition caLLing for a SE!lect committee of the House to hold public hearings on the rescinding resolution and the Premier•s alternative. Thank you. MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: ThE! han . the Leader. MR. BAKER : Government Thank you, Mr. Speaker. orders of the day. MR. SPEAKER: House I move The han . !:hE! MembE!r for Humber Valley. MR. WOODFORD: Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to- MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The han. LeadE!r. The Government House MR. BAKER: Mr.

Speaker, after the petition was finishE:1d, I stood and moved Orders of the Day. That. is a motion before the floor so the motion has to be put. MR. SPEAKER: I thought the Member for Humber Valley tAJas up on a Po'.int of Order. The han. GovetnnrnE!nt House Leader has moved Orders of the Day. MR. RIDEOUT: Mtn. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order . L 21 March 27, 1990 Vol XLI MR. RIDEOUT: Mtn. SpE!aker. the routtnE! ordE!Ins of business in this House, and I am sure Your Honour will want to have a look at '.it. but.

I can rr::1mernbe'ln. day aftE!r day in this House lAJh€:!n there was nothing else done. only petitions! MR. SPEAKER: Of course. MR . RIDEOUT: But the routine Orders cif the Day, Mr. Speaker·, are sl:.ab:~ITIE:!nts by Ministers, Oral Questions, Presenting Repotnts and so on, and nolAJ tAle are down Lo pE•t:i.tions and the Member for Humber Valley has a petition to present. AN HON. MEMBER : He was not recognized. MR. RIDEOUT: He was recognized! MR. SPEAKER: Yes. I recognized the ME!ITtbE!r. MR.

RIDEOUT: The Speaker was about to recognize him, tA.Jhr::~n the GoVE!ntiTlE!Ilt House - I am sorry Sir - when you iH'e standing. I know I <:Hrl ~>upposed l::o sit. MR. SPEAKER: Yes. the There is no question that Leader of the Opposition is correct in terms of Lhe petitions. I had assumed that the Member for Humber Valley was up on a point of order. MR. RIDEOU~ : Oh no, Sir, no, no. MR . But for and SPEAKER: tA.Je wi11 revert Humber Valley. I -·· No. 11 (A ·Fl:er·noon) to thE! ME!lTtbr::'r I called him I~ 21

MR. BAKER : Point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Point of order. MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker, it is perfectly in order any time during the proceedings, my understanding is, according to the rules of order, to move adjournment, to move the Orders of the Day be proceeded with and so on, and I made the motion . I IJJas propE.!rly recognized by Your Honour, Hansard wiLl show, and I moved that we get on to Orders of the Day and, Mr. Speaker, I am wondering what is happening to that? MS UERGE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : To the point of order. MS UERGE : Mr.

Speaker, it has been a well established practice of this House of Assembly, in accordance with our Standing Orders and the authorities on rules, that there is no J.imit to the tiTTlE! that can be spc:!nt on petitions. There is no limit to the number of petitions that may be presented and, Mr. Speaker, the Member for Humber Ualley, has a petition, which he wishes to present. rhereforE', Mr.

Speaker, I say to you, that it is necessary for you, as Speaker, to allow the Member for Humber Valley to proceed with presenting his petition We had not finished this age:~nda itE!rrl, and the Member for Humber ·ualley is ready to proceed with his petition. AN HON. MEMBER : rhe Speaker just said so . MR. SPEAKER: L22 Mar-ch 2'7, l. 990 Uol XLI Th e Chair will rec ess th e House for a couple of minutes. Recess MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! I want to first of all remind the media that the agreement en tered into by all hon. Mr:.~mbE!rs is that thE!re be no audio, absoJ.utely no audio.

With respect to the situat .ion that we are in, I might inform hon. Members that we have had l .. IJJO precedents, one on December 13, 1984 and one the ver'y next. day on December 14, 1984. So on thi s issue I am going to allude to Lhe one of DE!cemb~~r 13, although the 14 om~ is similar. rhis issuE! arosed December 13, 1984 . A Minister moved ·standing Order 21 which is that we proceed to Orders of ·the Day during PE!t.i ttons. fhe Deputy Speaker, at. the tirne, ruled the moti.on in order. And th•:> Deputy Speaker quoted a 19'76 ruling which in eff ect stated t:hat thE! motion before thE!

Chair, that the House move to Orders of Lhe Day, was in order and not debatable. And I IAI'ill quote the f i n a l d e c i s i o n of t hE! S pea k E! r , at. the time it was the Deputy SpE!aker, Mr '. Ay11JJard as a rnat l.E'I" of fact, and he IJJas quoUng a 1.976 ruling of Spe:~aker Ott.E!nhei.rner. , .. ,~~ says 'The motion beforE! l:he Chair is that the OrdE!rS of lhE! Day be read and is not debatable so I sha11 put thE' question. So then the Deputy Speaker proceeded lo say 'I haVE! to ru1E! Hw rnoti on by the han. the MinistE !r oF Ju stice, Mr .

Otl:.enhE!irner - t.hal is IJJho moved the motion - according to our precedent, is in or'dE!r clnd I put the qu•:=!stion before the HouSE! No. l.l (A ftel"noon) R22

that we proceE:~d to the OrdE!rs of the Day. 1 And I now put the sam(,~ question to the House. The motion is we proceed to the Orders of the Day. All those - MR. RIDEOUT: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, this is a very serious matte!" and I lAJi.ll try to d1~al lAii th it. in a ser·ious way. I refer Your Honour to yesterday 1s Hansard. At the end of huo pE!titions having bE!E!n prE!sented to this Legislature, Your Honour; before procE!E!ding said 1 Are there any Further Petitions 1? Two petitions preSE!nted yesterday, not one.

There WE:~re tiAJO. And the Speaker asked if there were any further petitions? Today we had one petition presented and. a Member standing ready to present another. we did not have the question: Are there any further petitions? We had thE! Government House Leader propose that under Standing Order 21, that the Orders of the Day be read. Mr. Speaker, Standing Order 21 says 1A motion for reading the OrdE!rs Of fhe Day shall have preference to any motion before the House. 1 Mr. Speaker. there is no motion twfore thE! House unt:Ll we are finished with routine OrdE!rs of thE! Day.

If we finish with routine Ord~rs of the Day, which includes pE!U.tions. and move on to something else, it is in the form of a motion of sorne sort. a bill, a resolution or whatever. There is no motion before this House until I"OUt.ine Orders of the Day have been dealt with. L23 March 27, 1990 Vol XLI Despite what rnay have happem!d in the past, prE!Cedents that You1" Honour is quoting, there is no moU.on before this House. Let ITIE! take Your Honour back to Standing Order 14· which lAdl1 makE! it c1ear that there is not a motion before the House.

Standing OrdE!I" 14- says l:he following: 11 The ordinary dai.ly routine of businE•ss in l:hE! HouSE! shall b1~ as follot.<Js. except t.<JI'lE!I"I:> priority has beE:Hl giVE!I1 pi"E!V:i.ously by the House 11 thE!I"~~ is an exception here if we were to do that but that certainly was not donr:~ today. ThE!rE:~ IAJ:i1J bE! 11 (

a) Statements by Minis b?.rs; (b) 0J"al Questions; (

c) Presenting RepoJ"ts by Standing and Special Cornrn:ittE!es: (cl) Not:ices oF Mot:i.on; (

e) Answers to Questions for tAJhtch notice has b~:!r:'n given; (

f) Petitions. 11 And, it goes on to say, which I th:ink is rE!a1ly opE!rat:ive again. Mr. Speaker, for this issue today, 11 The ordc•J" oF business for the consideration of the House. day by day. aftE!r the above dail.y routine, shall be as follolAJS. except on Wednesdays. 11 We all know tAJhat happE!nS on Wednesdays. WhE~n it. cornE!S 3 o 1clock we haVE! l:o go to Prival:1~ Member 1 s Motions. but hei"E! are the orde1ns on every othe1~· day. Afl:.er you get past routine businE!SS of the House here is the order as laid down in Standing Order 14, 11 excE•pt on Wednesday: (

a) Th:il'·d rE!adings; (

b) Cornrrdt.i:E•E! of l:.hE• Whole on reports oF select committees; (

c) CorniTI:itLE!e of t.he Whole on Bills read a second t.tlfle; (

d) St:~cond readings; (E•) 11 JAJh:i.ch we are getting at hE!re, 11 (1:>) Motions of which notices have been '.'JiVE!I1 by the Government. 11 Motions of which notiCE!S haVE! been g:i.ven by the Government cannot be l"ead until fourth on the order after we get past we did businE:~ss. No . 1:1. I"OUtine not Therl'! business. finish is no (Aft:er·noon) foday routine motion R23

befo1~1:=! the House, Mr. Speaker, therefore WE! cannot put., according to Standirig Order 21, that some other motion be read because there is no motion before the House. The last order, of course, is, 11 Motions of which notices have been given by private Members. 11 Mr. Speaker, it is clear, despite precedence from thE• past that you rightly researched and read here today, but what comes first, Mr. Speaker, in this chamber is not prE!cedence, it is not the Beauchesne, it is not the Standing Orders of the House of Commons, what comes first . in this Chamber is this, the Standing Orders of the House of Assembly.

SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT : What comes first, Mr. Speaker, are the Standing OrdE!rS of the House of Assemby of Newfoundland and Labrador, not Beauchesne or the House of Commons, not even precedence, and there can be no doubt according to our own Standing Order 14, if there was any, Standing Order 14 eliminates it, there can be no doubt that we can only do as a fourth item of business after we get past routine Standing Orders of the day, we can only do as a fourth order of business a Government motion.

Should there be any doubt then Standing Order 21 eliminates it altogether that you can only moue under Standing Order 21 that the Orders of thE! Day have prE!Cedence when you gEd: to a motion, and we have not reached the stage in this Legislature today, Mr. Speaker, where we got to a motion because we are still on (

f) of our roul:ine orders which is petitions. .§ 0 1':1L .. !iQJ~! .. : ... _!'i E M.!3. .I .. ~.~ : Hear, hE !ar! 1.24 March '27, 1990 Vol XLI MR. SPEAKER: ThE! hon. the PrE!rrdE!In . PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker , let us be frank about this. What WE! are facing hE!rE! is a shameless and despicable attempt to prevent the debate of a serious and important resolution that would give the people of this Province an opportunity t:o haVl o' a say in their futur ·e for· l.hE! next century -and they want it stopped. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER WELLS : It is a shameless attE:•rnpt. l:o do it, and now Your Honour having made a ruling, a totally proper ruling based on sound precedent, based on l:he rules, notAJ they ar1?. trying to appeal Your Honour's ruling. SOME HON. MEMBERS : You are wrong! Ydu are wrong! AN HON. MEMBER: It is al1 in Hansa1~d, IAJe a1"e not doing it . MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! PREMIER WELLS : There is only one th:ing that l:he han . the Leader of l:hE! Oppositton (M1~ . Rideout.) sate! w~i. Lh u.Jh:i.ch I agree, this is what has precedence, of cour se, it does. And what the rule says in Order 21, and it says it.

Fo1n qu ite a specific reason,'A rnot.ion For r e ad i n g t h C:' 0 1n d e r s o f l:i't e D a y shall have precedent: to any motion beforE! the House .' The hon. Government House Lea dr0r s l :.ood and moved that motion. And that motion was before Your Honour . SOM E HON . MEMBERS: No . 11 (Afl:r:=!rnoon) I~ 2 '1-

Hear, hear! AN l-ION. MEMBER : (Inaudible). PREMIER WELLS: The han. the Government House Leader stood and moved that motion. Now, Mr. Speaker, Your Honour has ruJ.ed, and it is there quite properly, it is to prevent a gang of hooligans from taking the House on its back and preventing the order of business. SOME l-ION. MEMBERS: UnparJ.iamentary. PREMIER WELLS: Let mE! reword that, Mr.

Speaker I and take back that word 1 hooligans 1 • It is to prr:~vent a group of p~;:1op1e, who haVE! no conCE!rn about the future of this Province, but who are only concerned about · their own political ends, trying to gain some short term political gain and who are prepared to play these kinds of games wi t.h thE• future of the people of this· Province. Now that is what we are dealing with. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER WELLS: Now, Mr. Speaker, the Government House Leader stood in his place and properly moved a motion for reading of the Orders of the Day as Your Honour has described.

That is precisely the situation that occurred in 1984 and Your Honour has made the appropriate ruJ.ing. And I ask Your Honour to proceed u..Ji th putting the question that has been moved by the han. the Government House Leader. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! · 1.2S March 2'7, 1990 Vol XU MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of. the Opposition for a.fina1 submission. MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Premier can rant and rave a11 he likes. But Jet mE:! say th:i.s to the Premier. The rules of this House arE! hE!re for· thE! protection of that side and for the protection of tl'd.s sidE!, Mr. Speaker. And thl'?.

Spt::'aker himse1f knows that he recognized the Member for Hu1nber Va11ey (Mr. Woodford). AN HON. MEMBER : Right on! MR. RIDEOUT: EVE!Inybody in this House knou..1s, Ml". Speaker, that you cannot p1noce1:~d under Standing Order 21 unless there is a mot:ion before l~he House. And the1ne is not a rnot:ion before the Hou&e. Ordinary routine Business of the Day has to be dealt tAril:h you bE!fore you can get any motion before the House. MS VERGE : It was not de~lt with . MR. RIDEOUT: And it was not dealt with. Statements By Ministers, Mr. Speaker, is not a motion. OraJ. Questions is not a motion.

Answers To QUE!stions Fol" Wh:i.ch Notice Has Been Given is not a motion. Petitions is not a mot'ion. And the PrerniE•r says tAJIO! arE! trying to somehow trnpede thE! future of Newfound1and and Labrador for our own political means. Mr. Speaker, if we were politicians about this and cared nothing about only raw politics, we wouJ.d be in b1:1d IAJ:i.th the Premier on this issue, Mr. SpE!aker. That j s IAJhel"e lAJE! u..Jou1.d No. 1.1. (AFtE•rnoon) IUS

be. But we happen to bE!lieVE! that the future of Newfoundland and Labrador, as part of thE! Canadian family, is an issue that the people of this Province has to seize their mind on and tha ·t the Premier is the nation wrt:~cker, Mr . Speaker. That is what we believe . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! The Chair wants to be clear now on what the hon . the Leader of the Opposition is addressing. Is he addressing the point of order? Just what is the Leader of the Opposition doing? MR. RIDEOUT: Ml". Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: Yes, please . The ·chair would like to know. MR.

RIDEOUT: - I am addressing the point of order, Mr. · Speaker, and, hopefully, successfully rebutting thE! points thE! PrE!ITiier raised whE!n he addressed the point of ord,:=!r I originally raised. Is that in order, Sir? MR. SPEAKER: Yes. MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The point is simply this, Mr. Speaker: We are not going to jump in bed with the Premier because it might be politically opportune today to do so. We have a longer ter·m view of Newfoundland and Labrador than between now and thE! 23rd of June, Mr. Speaker.

We are ever conscious of what this track 1..26 March 2'7, 1990 Vol XLI the Premier has set out on can do: irreparable damage, Mr. Speaker, to every man, t..u.ornan and ch.ild in Newfoundland and Labrador. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, he!ar! MR. RIDEOUT: And when the Premier, as Leader of the Government, rE!fuses a pr ·ocE!SS to allow the people to participab?. in this infamous proCE!dUJ"E• that ~w is about i~o begin hE!l"e today, HH:!n as Leader of the Ofhcial Opposit :ion and as an or:f:icial Opposition we intend to usE ~ evE!l"Y parliamentary trick in the book, Mr. Speaker.

We would bE! le~;s l:.han an Opposition i.F uJe did not use them. One of the things we can use under the provision of OUI" ~)tanding Orders and routine busim!SS 'is to take the time today, tornorJ"OlAJ if we wish - not after three o•clock, though - Thursday if we wish, Friday if we IAJish, the nE!Xt seventeen days if we wish, the next 170 days if we tArish, to br·ing before this House petitions, Mr. Speaker. We can do it eVE!ry single day.· And we rnay clo :it fol" a day or two, we 1nay do it for a week or so, but Mr . Speaker, we must stand on ouJ~ r·ights and demand our rights.

We canr.ot go to Standing Order 21 unt.il thE!J"e is a motion bE•fOI"E:' Uds f·loUS('!, and no motion can come bE!FOJ"e this House until thE! routinE' Ord er's of the Day have been dispensed with. Now,.we are not irresponsible. We are not a group of people who want to - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hc::~ar! MR. RIDEOUT: Laugh if you like. Go ahead, haVE! No.· 11 (Afternoon) I~ 26

your laugh while I am drawing another br~ath. Mr . Speaker, lAJE! are not ones who normally stand up, as I have seen Oppositions do, in this House, :in the past, and try to intimidate the Speaker into getting mad at them, try to get the Speaker to name them, try to put the Speaker in an embarrassing position, as the Governrnent have done here today. MR. SPEAKER: I would ask the han. H o u s e' Lead E! r to g E! t to of order, please! MR. RIDEOUT: 'i -w·:rfr~--............. _ Opposition his point WE:' are not ones to challengE! the ruJ.ing of thE!

Speaker lightJ.y, but I would ask Your Honour, on behalf of the years and decades of tradition in this House, to read Standing Ot"det" 14, to' read it in conjunction ·tAli th Standing Order 21, and allow us to get on with what we are allowed to do under the routine ordE:~rs of the House, the routine business of the House, and that is to present further petitions if we ~ant to, consistent with Your Honour everyday asking: Are there any further petitions? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, h~::~ar! MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Government House l..eader for a final presentation. MR. BAKER : Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

I would J.ike to very quickly dE!al tAiith the crux of the mal:.tE!r here. We are referring to a motion to read the OrdE!rs of l:he Day, which L27 March 27, 1990 Vol. XLI exists in this House and exists in the House of Commons in Ottawa, and it exists fur a purpoSE!, Ml". Speaker. If everybody would J.ook at the Order Paper, you will see that there are two sections to the Order Paper. There is, first of all, some routine bus:lness, and then there are Orders of the Day.

NolAJ, then, the Opposition contends that you cannot put a motion that we now procN~d with Ot"dE!rs of the Day until after we get into Orders of the Day. AN HON. MEMBER: =-rTi'a_t_ .. _i_s_ ...... r~·r9·Fi .. t.-·~· MR. BAKER : Now, Mr. Sp•::!aker, !:.hat is ludicrous. Why would parl:larnental"ians develop systE'I'IlS of rules and have such an important procedure put in there if it has no function, it. cannot be used? Why call Orders of t.h1?. Day if you are already into Orders of the Day? Mr.

Speaker, it:. is obvious l:he reason for that parliamentary procedure, the reason for :i.l:s existence is that at so rnetiiTlE! during the regular, ordinary busine:~ss it becornE•s neCE!ssary, and in this case it is absolut.Ply necessary, to call Or'ciE!rS of thE! Day to prevent l:.his kind oF filibustE!r. Then, Ml". ~)pec:"tker, the procedures are written into thE! Standing Ot"det~s so that that can be done, and to prevent lhe hijacking of thE• House by an Opposition unnecessar''ily. That is the purpose of it. TherE! is no other function.

If that lAJere not the function, then the procedure of caJ.ling Orders oF the Day simply would not exist. No. 11. (Af'LE!rnoon) R2'7

Mr. Speaker, I th'ink the case is clear. The precedents sited by Your Honour were accurate, that in prE!Vious Sessions in the House of Assembly exactly the same procedure was used with the samE:~ effect. Mr. Speaker, I suggest we finish with this nonSE!nse and get on with the serious business of this House. MR. SPEAKER: The Chair has heard enough submissions on this . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Ohs oh! -~ · - MR. SPEAK .ER : Order, please! For further accuracy and further clarification, the Cha1r is going to adjourn for a couplE! morE! ITiinl.lb':!S. Recess MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I again refer hon.

Members to the same reference . I quoted previously, and for the benefit of han. MembE!rs I could refrE!Shc:~n their m1:!rnories and enlighten those who nE!ed not have their memories refreshened, that the debate at that par·ticular time, on December the 13, 1984, took exactly the same course it is taking today, with the Opposition of the day stating that there was no motion before the House. It was- Mr. Neary who was speaking, and he sa1d, 1 We are presenting petitions. There is no motion before the House, so, therefore, thE! hon. gentleman is completely out of order. 1 1_28 March 27, 1990 Vol XLI Then Mr.

Ottenheirner rose and spoke for Government - he was then the Attorney General. He said, 1 Min. Spt~aker, I think one can reply to that point from l:.lAJO different perspectives. Standing order 21 is quite clear. A motion for the reading of Uw Orders of the Day sha11 have prefE!r(:!nce to any motion before the House. I think it can be assumed that most people in presenting a petition assume that when they do, it is moved that this petition be now tabled and refer1"1::'d l~.o t:h1':! department to which it relates. There is, in fact , an assumed motion.

What happens with petitions is th1::'!y are tabled and forwarded to the departments to which they relate, so thE!re ts, in fact, an assumed motion. 1 That was Mr. Ottenhe1mer 1 s contribution, and the debate carried on For a little while, banter back and fo1nth, until Hw Speaker recessed the House and went to the precedent of 1976. Then, again, as I said on l:hE! next day the same rnatte•r aroSE!, to move to the Orders of the Day, and i.t was again declared i.n otnder by the Speaker. We have ch1~cb:-d tAJith LrH:!

House of Cornrnons, and I arn quot.:lng From the annotated Standing OrciE•rs of the House of Cornrnons 1989 . It. says, 'In relation to this rna t:b:•r, the weight of recent precedents favours t:he admissibility oF motions to plnoceE:~d to t.l'w 01nde1ns of the Day if moved bEd"ore Orders of the Day, whether or not debate on another motion is currently in progress. So I make the same ruling. I rule that-:. the motion by the han. Government House Leader was in ordc~r, and notAl I subrni t l:.he question. The orde1n is lAJe move to OrdE!rS of the Day. All those in favour 1 Aye 1 ? SOME HON.

MEMBERS : No. 1.1 (Afternoon) I~ 2 8

AyE!. MR. SPEAKER: fhose against 1 Nay 1 • SOME HON. MEMBERS: Nay. MR. SPEAKER : Carried. MR. WOODFORD: On a point of privilege, Mr . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : The hon . the Member for Humb~r Valley. Order, please! Member on? What is the hon . MR. WOODFORD: A point of privilege, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A point of privilege . MR. WOODFORD: Mr. Speaker, as far as I am concerned as one Member of this House · of Assembly, today my privileges have been breached, period! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hE!ar! MR. WOODFORD: One, Mr. Speaker, we were still on petitions. The former speaker sat. down and I stood up.

I took it for grantE!d, Mr. Speaker, that it was the same as before - Are there any further petitions? I was up and I tAJas prepared to present: my petition. As a Member in this House, am I to assume, as of today, that. only one p~:!U.tion is legitimate? That is the first question. Secondly, Mr'. Speakc.=Jr, as a L 29 March 27, 1990 Vol XLI private Member of thE! HouSE! it is one of the only avenues tJ.Je have, except fot~ speaking in dE•batE!, ·to present petitions on I:H:~half of the constituents in out~ Pt~ovinc<o~. On that nob=?.

I lAJould l:i.kE! to say to the Premier in parU.cular, he got up a few minutes ago and said that we are trying to stymie and trying to stop a very impor't.ant isstH~ in the Province. Maybe it is an important issue in the Province. It is certainly an important issue to the Premier, because he has been spE!nding all his time on it for the last ten months. Now, I say to the Prr:'!rnier' and to Members opposite that . thC::! concerns of the people in my Dts l:.rict at~e more important to me today than Meech Lake. And I Si.'lY that ~H:!I~r::• publicly.

The people in Jackson 1 s Arm or Sops Arm or Pollards Point, on whose behalf I had to present the petition , a.r e j us t as i rn port ant to me as ME!I'::~ch Lake; they have theJJ~ f~rnilies to look after. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. WOODFORD: The people in Jackson 1 s Ann tAJanl: to work. They want t.o provid<o~ for' l:hc:dr families. And l:hat ts obvious from some of the t.hi.n~1s I was going to say in the pE!tit1on I was about to present, it would have been brough l: forwar'd. I do not want to gl'::~t into that now, 1 tJ.Jill do it at anoHwr time.

But thE!Y are issul'::~s and they arE• concerned tJ.Iith tryin.g t.o lllake a living and with putting the infrastructure in place to do that. I tried today to concerns to th'.i.s ask10!d me to do that a petiti.on. We can No. 11 (Afternoon) pr'"'sent thE~ir House. They in the fol"'n of only elE!Ct onE:! R29

Member from each district in this Province, i:lnd that Member has the right to present a petition in this House of . Assembly on constituents' behalf at any given time . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WOODFORD: I want to make it quite clear that I, as a Private Member, should have that right. I was recognized, Mr. Speaker. For whatever it was worth, I was recognized. There was nothing else. In fact, the Speaker commented afterwards, 'I thought l:he Mernb1:1r was raising. a point of order,' which says that I was up and recognized.

So, if somebody thought I was raising a point of order, why was I not recognized for a point of order? Mr. Speaker, I want quite clear to ecich Member in this House - to make it and every the first question I asked - are we to assume that only one petition will be presented from now on? As far as I am concerned, as a Private Member, my privileges were breached, period! I had a petition to present . There were no questions, there was no hidden agenda. It was concerning constituents of my District. it was lE!gally signed by 14.7 people, and I was denied the right to prE!Sent it today. Mr.

Speaker, I u..Jant to make it quite clear that as far · as I arn concerned, my privileges were breached. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : HE!ar. hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! L30 March 27. 1990 Vol XLI Han. ME!rnbers makE! referE!nCE! to the fact tha l: the Member for liumber Valley was recognized, and that is true. But I had also recognized the Government House Leader, who had said that we would move to Orders of the Day.

Then, whE!I1 I saw the Member For Humber Valley, I thought he was on a po'.int of 01nder, possibly relating l:o what the Government House Leader had raised, but the Gov,?.rnment Hous1:o Leader then immediately stood up on a point of order and prates ted the fact that I had not pr'oceecled to recognize or deal with his motion. So, obviously, s:i .nce• he got up on a motion, we had to recognize his motion, which was that we move to Orders of the Day.

All the precedents state~ that. thi.s motion takes precedence over everything else and, I say to th~?. han. gentleman from Humber Valley, if we were to have our privileges removed by moving to Orders of the Day, quite obviously that rule ·would be quite useJ.(o~ss and other Members could state that they had their privileges breached, as well. I rule there i.s no po"i.nt oF privilege. 0 0 0 MR. WINDSOR: A point of privilege, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Member For Mount Pearl on a point of privilege . MR. WINDSOR : Thank you, Your Honour .

Mr. here Speaker, what today is a I think i l:. in thclt i.l: . is event. treatE!d clearly, No . 11 (Aft ernoon) is happerd.nq veiny serious desc,~rves to be li-ght. Ver'y a bn~ach of R30

privileg"=' o·F all Members of Hlis hon. HouSE!. As has bE•en said in prev:i.ous ·debate and previous points of privilege this afternoon, we do have Standing Orders. Standing Orders are laid down for very good and valid reason, to protect the privilegE!S of this House and, more specifically, Mr. Speaker, to protect the privileges of individuals of this House and, through the elected representatives, to protect the privih1ges of the people of this Province. _§_Q.~ .. ~ ... J-1 Q~.. ME M ~J.J~.~ : Hear. hE!ar! MR. WINDSOR: What we are see".ing this afternoon. Min.

Speaker, are thE! privileges of the people of this Province being taken away. in that the privileges of Members of this House are being denied. I have not only a privilege, Mr. Speaker, to address a petition, but: a check with Beauchesne will find that I have a responsibi1ity. I am duty bound as the elected representative of my constituents to present their petition, and, indc:•ed. I must sign it. It is not a right at a11, it ·is an absolute responsibility.

A responsibi1i t y that has beE!n laid clown by parliamentary tradition in all of the British Commonwealth, is now being taken away From all Members of this House, this afternoon, through these proceedings which are taking place. There is a cor·rect and proper tAJay to change the Standing Orders. If l:he Government House L"=1ader wants to change the Standing Orders of l:his House, thE!n he may makE! the appropriatE! motion. In due course it shaLl be dc:!bated, and by a vote of two thir·ds plus one. I think it ".is, the Standing Orders ·can be L31 March 27. 1990 Vo1 Xl...l • chang"=1cl.

But unU.l t hat is clone. the Standing OrciE'!Ins ar'E! clealn. And I would submit lo Your Honour that regard1E•ss of F>r"=1cedr:1nt. and I am famiLiar tAJith the prc?.CC::1dE!nl Your Honour quoted in previous rulings earlier today; I was hE!lne at that: time and we disagreed with the ruJ.ing at that time in spi l:E• of the fact that the ruling was in favour of the Government at the time. We fe1t that the ruling made by that Speaker at t.hat t:irnE! was not proper, and I still th"i.nk the ruling is improper today. Your Honou1n.

Veiny simply, th-.i.s is a point of taking privilege away from the Members of the House. l:hr·ou<Jh Lhe mernbr:'r, and aJ.l t.hr:' pE•oplE! in t his Province, a right For the peop1':! lo haVE! thei1n pE!t.:i.U.ons ~wa1nd :i.n the people's House~ and th"' responsibility of all Members to present those petitions in this hon. House. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER : Again, theine ts no po i n l:. of privilege. When t he mo t ion t o move to Orders oF lhe Day had preference over the other mo t ion and tAle had prc:.~ced,;!nt in the House for it, then, qui t E! obvi.ousJ.y, MernbE!rS' privilE!ges haVE! not bet~n breached.

I want t o rem i nd the hon. Me rnber that what happenE!d on that particuJ.ar day was the Opposition appea l ed the Speaker's ruling but i t was upheld by the Government. MR. TOBIN: A po".int of privilege, Mr. Speakt~r . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member foln Burin Placentia West on a point oF priviJ.ege. MR. TOBIN : Mr. Speakc:!r. I have been c:;! } ec l:.ed No . l. l (AFlE!rnoon) R 3 l

to serve in this Chamber on three occasions, and one of the many reasons why I have received an increasing vote of confidence from my constituents, each time I sought the right, was because of my ability to present their case to this Legislature. I was elected by these people to do that. I, too, had a pE!ti tion to present today, a 1,000 name petition by the residents of Petit Forte, who are in the gallery, Mr. Speaker. Their rights have been breached SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hE!ar! MR. TOBIN: Mr.

Speaker, Forte ar·e not the Premier, you that. the people of PE!ti t to be laughed at by either, I can tell SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. TOBIN: You do not have to tell the Speaker lAJha t to do, either. You cannot take the House on your back. You are only one Member . These people are here today to watch me present a petition on their behalf. Give me the right under the Standing Orders, included in what went on today. I want the right to present that peU.tion und<::~r the rules of this LegislaturE!. I do not lJJant the right under any other rules, I do not want any special treatment, Mr.

Speaker, all I am asking for is the right that is provided me by the Standing Orders to present a 1, 000 narnE! pE!ti tion to this Legislature. MR. HODDER: There were two Statements today. Ministerial Why . could we L32 March 27, 1990 Vol XLI • not have two petitions? MR. TOBIN: . Yes, Min. Sj:'H:1akE!r, thE:'I"e lAJel"E! t.lAJO Ministerial Statements made today. We did not try to dE!rlY the Ministers of this Legislature their right to make their Ministerial Statements. We did not try to interfer with that, Mr. Speaker. How carne the President of Treasury Board wanted to impede our rights to present petitions?

How come, when my colleague was standing to pres"~nt a petition 011 behalf of his constituents, the President of Treasury Board stood and interfered with his rights and the rights of all of us to rnake a presentation to this House? Mr. Speaker, I honestly b.::!liE!Ve rny privileges hav e bE!E!r1 dE•n i('!d rnE! today. My rights to present: a 1, 000 namo f>E!ti tion should not b"'1 taken lightly, a 1,000 narne petition from people throughout this Province who have supported the people of Petit Forte, ~nd rightly so.

I do not know · hotAI I ca~ be denied the tight to present a petition on their behalf because of something Gerry Ottenheimer said when he was in th is Legislature, tE!n YE!ars ago . AN HON. MEMBER: Something? He was the Speaker. MR. TOBIN: You watt. You watt. Ci v E! rne time! Give me time. Now, Mr. SpE!aker, rny privi1eges, it is quite clear, have been shat t.err:•d. Do I not have the right to pre sent a petition under l:he Stdnding Orders which give ffiE! the right t:o present petitions, ih'm F? Do [ not have that right? ShouJd I not have the right? I ask you, Mr . Speaker, I bE>g you, Mr. Sp eakPr. Mr.

Speaker, if you lJJan·L rne on my knees b"=1gqing, considE!In rn~:! in that posil: .ion, but give l'nE! l:he r·ighl: to No. 11. (Af ternoon) r~ 3 2

present my petition . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. The Leader. Government House B.ti ..... ~ Ol'i_:_~..S-~.~K..~. : A point of privilege. MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . MR. FUREY: He is responding to the point. of privilege. Sit down! MR. SPEAKER: Is the han. Government House Leadr:~r responding l:o the point of privilege? MR. BAKER : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I would like. to point out that ther~ is obviously no point of privilege. Members who wish to present petitions can present them any day. MS VERGE: Not today, though . MR.

TOBIN: I just got mine today, before I came into the House. MR. BAKER : They couJ.d have prc:~sented thE!ITI YE!StE!r'day, they can present tht~m again tomorrow and ·the day aftE!r, and the day after. MR. WINDSOR: Tomorrow you will take atJJay Question Period. MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker, ther'("' is no matter of privilege here. The Members' 1.33 Ma1nch 27, 1~)90 Vol XLI privileges are not interfered with. They can carry on with their parliamentary duties and thE!Y can uJ.ttrnaf:edy prE!SE!nt Uw:i.r petitions - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Orde 'r, pleasr?.! Ord.::~r p1r~ase! MR.

BAKER: They can ultimately present thr;dr petitions, Ml". SpeakE! In, at:. any point in time. They do not expect us to believe that: alJ of a sudden, magically today, 95 petitions appea1ned, all at thE• same time. None appeal"r::>d yesterday, they appeared alJ at l:.he same time, just bE•fore t:he House opE! ned t.oclay. Ml". SpE!aker·', that stretches anybody's credulity, that does! Mr. Speaker, they tJ..d.1l have arnplE! t.J.rnr?. to present their petitions. We lJ..Iill keep the House open all Summer, if needs be, so they can present thr?.ir pE!tit.ions. rhE!re 1s no point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. MR.

MATTHEWS: Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Grand Bank . MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, a point of privilege . AN HON. MEMBER : Are you speaking to this point? MR. MATTHEWS: Yes, I lJ..I'i'.ll speak l:o the point:. o-f"' privilege, if that is what I am supposed to do. Mr. Sp~:!aker, oiL has gotten confusing in this House ovr::~r the last fr?W weeks, let-: rne say. I want to concur w:i.l:.h t·.he No. 11 (A ftelnnoon) 1n3

points of privilege that have been made in th.is House today, and say very sincerely that, in fact, my privileges in l:.his House have been breached over the last fe•w weeks, and this particular caucus has been breached over the last few weeks, when · we saw another pre! cedent, just last lAJeek in this House, with the recognition of someone who stood in Question Period . I had to leave this Chamber just:. last week, Mr.

Speaker ... - you were not here, there was a Chairman in the Chair because I had rightfully stood in my place to bE! recognized in debate, and the Chairman of the day recognized two speakers in succession from the Opposition the Government. I am sorry. SOME HON. MEMBERS : --··--~·- ... Mo-OoO OOOOO ,OO_O_o_, ___ ,,,_,, ______ , Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, plea?e! MR. MATTHEWS: Two Speakers from the Government side. I apologize for making that error. You should never be too big in life, Mr. Speaker, to admit l:.hat you are wrong.

Now the MembE!r for s·urin - PJ.acentia West had a petition delivered to him today by the residents of Petit Forte, who are in town . It has been prE!t ty standard procedurE! in this House that you allow a Member to present a petition when his delegations are here; we saw it the other day with the Member represeni:ing Nain, and so on, and every year since I haVE! been here. I am now i~to my tenth year, and for the first time I have seen my privileges breached in this Assembly. And I do not likE! il: one bit. Mr.

Speaker, I arn a prr:~tty blunt pC:~rson, and tAJhE!n someonE! tries to take awayrny privilege•s or rny rights, I usually L34 March 27, 1990 Vol XLI tell the truth, as I did once befor·e in this Legislat:ure, ·since• this session stctrtE!d. Now, I d:i .d it once bE!fore and t;..Jas penaLiz1:~d for it, let me te•ll the MtnJ.stE!r of Works, Services and Transportation. I was penaJ.ized in this Legislature for telling the truth and I had to leave t.hE! Chamber. MR. SPEAKER: I would ask the han. the Member for Grand Bank to please proceed with the point of prtvilege. MR. MATTHEWS : Mr.

Speaker, with all due resp1Ht, we are talking about rights and privileges here today. fhe Premlier rE!ferrE•d to hooligans and yahoos here. Well, there · ar1:! thrE!e or four · of thern ri~Jht hE!I"E! in front of me tAJho r'.'iqh l: notAl are interferring with rny spE!aldng. I do not: appreciate that, and I expect, with all due respect t.o Your Honour, the protect.ton of t.h1~ Chair. Rules appJ.y to both sidqs of the House, and it:. is t .. he Speaker's responsibility to

part i c u l a r 1 y pro t e c t t h e JTl i nor i t y in the House. And I thi.nk H :. is time we saw a bit of that in this House. Now, I probably have gone far enough, Mr . Speaker, in what I have said, but I say very sincerely l:hat rny rights in t.hts Assembly have be!en eroded ovr:~r· LhE! l.ast number of WE!eks in thi.s Chamber. I was sent here by an overwhelmning majority, by Lhe way, Mr·. Speaker. My opponE:~nt did not even get his nomination fee back. I was sE>.nt herE! to do a job on rny constituents' behalf, whtch I have done for ten years, and I intend to keep doing it. I have a 1, 200 narnE! pE• Lit ion, by thE! way, Mr. Speaker, on amalgamation - No. 11 (Afte!rnoon) IB'I-

• SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. WINDSOR : They are afraid of that one. That is what it is, they are afraid. MR. MATTHEWS: - which is very, VE!ry pertinE!nt to the people of Fortune and Grand Bank, and they cai"E! a J.ot about it. It also means a lot to me, and I want my right in this Assembly to present that petition when I IAJant. to present it, on the Order Paper under F, Petitions. But I have been denied my right to do that today. MR. WALSH : (Inaudible) . MR. MATTHEWS: I received a petition from the Mayor of Fortune this weekend, I would like to tell the hon. Member for Mount Scio - Bell Island (Mr.

Walsh) - this weekend from the Mayor . of Fortune. He had presented ·a copy of the petition to the Commissioners who were 'down for the hE!arings; he prE!Sented me t..~Jith a copy and asked me to present it on behaJ.f of the residents of Fortune in this Legislature. MR. FLIGHT : What happened (Inaudible)? MR. SPEAKER: OrdE!r, pJ.eaSE!! MR. MATTHEWS: Now, I want to do it on their behalf because they have asked me to do it, and they have electE!d me to come herE! t.o do that. I Feel what has happened herE! today, Mr.

Speaker, is an outr·ight breach of my privilege as a duJ.y elected Member of this Assembly. 1_35 March 2'7, 1.990 Vo1 XLI I do not know what we are going to do to resolve i.t, Mr. ~3peakE:!r, unJ.ess we call upon you to reconsider the ruling. I wou1d say th<:l.t if therE! is not a reconsideration of this particular ruling, in J.ight of what IAJe havE• seen in the last coupl.:' of weE!kS in this House, the decor·um of Lh:is House is not going to improve; the lAJorkings of this HousE! ai"E:! go:ing to deteriorate.

And if the Pr'E!rniE!r was sincere about lAJhat. hE• said when he first earn.:~ into l:his Legislature, about raising the decorum of this House, we would not SE!e happE:Hling today IAJhat. has happened. I believe it was the direct input of the Government which has caused this particular situation to deveJ.op today. AN HON. MEMBER : Why? MR. MATTHEWS: Because, Mr. Speaker, you had h~ft thE! Chair - MR. WARREN: You just Li.sb:~n . MR. MATTHEWS: -and then you carne back shor·t]y after. MR. WARREN : You listen. MR. MATTHEWS: And that makes one suspicious when these kinds of things develop. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Order., plE~ase! I just cannot let l:.hts statern(•nl go from the Memb!OH' For Torn•Ja'L Mountains (MI". WarTer1). I t..~rl.l.J check it oul~. in Hansard, but. I Udnk IAJh:i.1e the MembEH' Fo1" Gr·and Bank was commenting on what happened and that I left the No. 11 (AFternoon) 1ns

• Chair, and he was making some reference to Government, somebody said that t listened . I take that to be very offensive to the Chair. MR. WARREN : Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The han . the Member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I was referring to the Premier, not to you, Sir. ~R . SPEAKJ;;_R: I am sorry. I will accept that. M.R. MATTH _E~~: I am sorry, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKEr~: The han. the Member for Grand Bank . MR. MATTHEWS: Were you asking me to withdraw something? MR. SPEAKER: No . MR. WARREN: I was referring to the Premier. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Member for Grand Bank . MR .

MATTHEWS: I tJJas going to say. Mr. Speaker. if I had said anything that was interpreted by Your Honour as being offensive, I will most certainly withdraw it. I thought you were referring to me, and I was wondering what it was I had said that was offensive. I just want to conclude my remarks, Mr. Speaker. by asking you very sincerely to reconsider t:he ruling.

In the name of decorum, which the PrE·rnier said he L3 6 March 27. 1990 Vol XLI wanted to ral.SE!, I tAJi11 ask Your· Honour to reconsider this parti cuJ.ar s i t.ua tion so that Members on this side can go about their business as elected representatives and present petitions as on the Order Paper. MR. RIDEOUT : Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of thE! Opposition . MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker. I arn sp1~aking to l:he point of privilege raised by my colleague, the Member for Burin Placentia West. MR. SPEAKER: rhe han. the L.:~adE!r' of LhE! Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you . Mr.

Speaker, I bE!lieve IAJE! SEH•, and I think this is very. Vf~ry valid, since this point of privilE!ge ha s been raised by rny colleague For Burin - Placentia West, exactly why we are dealing with a point of privilege and have dealt tJJith points of ord _er· on a nl.llnb~~r of occasions today. Because as my colleague finishc,•d his remarks, the Government House Leader stood. Now, Mr.

Speaker, if you are in debate, if you are speaktng on a Government Bill, if you are speaking on a Government rnotion, or, I suppose, as WE! are do1n~~ now, speaking in debate on a point of privilege, it usually flows from one side of the HousE• l':o l:he other. But whE!n tAlE! a1"e on petitions. and this is the nub of what has happE:~ned hE!J"e today, when we are on the routine Order of the Day piece of bus iness called No. 1.1 (Afternoon) R36

Petitions, plural, it does not matter whether anybody on the other side· of the House stands or not. It has never mattered, Mr. Speaker, whether ~nybody on the other side of the House stood or not, as long as there is a ME!rnber standing on this side of the House who lAJants to pre•sent a petition, or on the other side of the House who lAJants to prE!sent a petition. But ·the point is there does not have to be anybody standing on the other s'.ide of the House.

Nor·rnal rules of debate do not apply under this rout'.ine ib:~rn as long as somebody is standing her'E! and is recogni.zed and says, 1 I want to present a petition on behalf of such and such a community and such and such number of pE!Ople. 1 The only way for somebody else in thi& House, then, to get recognized is to stand on a point of order or to stand on a point of privilege. That is the only other way, Mr. Speaker, you can knock out the right of a Member over here to continue to stand and present a petition. Now that raises this point, Mr.

Speaker, vaJ.id, I lAJouJ.d suggest to you, to t:his point of privilege. We had not proceeded from the routine Orders of the Day called Petitions. On what basis did the Government House Leader get recognized? MR. WINDSOR : He was not recognized. the point. MR. RIDEOUT: That is Was he recognized on a point of order? We have Hansard, Mr. Speaker. ThE!re is nothing in there saying the Government House Leader 1nos e on a point of Cinder. Was he recognized on a po'.int of privilege? There is no indication here, Mr. Speaker, that he tAJas L.37 Mar·ch 27, 1990 VoJ. XLI • recognized on a point of privilege.

Rout'.ine Orders of l:.hr::~ Day, th~1 headi.ng of Pe U.ti.ons, nobody else could be recognized in this House at that par·ticular point unless they rose on a point of order or on a point of privilege. If that happened I would make another· argurnt'nt, that you cou1d not use a point of order or a point of privilege to move Standing OrdE!r 21 anytAJay. But that did not happE!n. The nub of the privilege here is on what basis was the GoVE'InnrnE!nt House Leader lnecognizt'd? He should not have been allowed to speak, Mr.

Speaker, unless he rose on a point of privilege•, or a point of or·de•r, or to preSE!nt a Plo•t.i.tton. rhose are the only thr't:!E:' ways the Government House Leader could hav1?. been recognized. And I say to you, Sir, that l:hat goes fundarnental1y to thl'::' bas·.:i.s of this Parliament. We are always going to want to present pet.i. h. on s. Some days rnar1y of them, some days maybE! a few of them, but a Mernber· was rising to pres 1:'!nt a pE:1ti tio n.

Another Member had a pet:i.ti.on, signed by 1, 000 people tAJho had a delegation in the gallery today to watch their Member makE! the prayc>r on their behalf for a road they should be getting as oF right, but this Gove•rnrnent lAJants to deny, Mr. Speaker. So the real nub of t:.he quest:i .on of privilege here ts how, in l:hE! first place, could the Government House Leader be recogrLiZio!d to rnov1?. Standing OrdE!r 21.? He had t.o be standing on a point oF privilege, a point of 01nde1n, or to pr'E:!sent:. a petition himself, because we had not yet moved frorn the routine order of the day called Ped:.i tions.

I submit. t:.o you, Ml". Speaker- No. 11 (Afternoon) R37

AN HON. MEMBER : Sit down. MR. RIDEOUT : I will speak until the Speaker sits me down . A N --!. •. - H ON ....... 11..~1.1_8 E R : (Inaudible). MR. RIDEOUT : We may do that, there is a provision Orders to gentlc::~men have done here. under the Standing do that. The hon. opposite were known to it when they were over AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR . RIDEOUT: Oh, no. Did the Speaker not say today that the han . gentlemen, when they were over here in 1984-, did not like the ruling and went on to appeal the Speaker 1s ruling. Did he not? Did he not? Did the Speaker not say that, Mr.

SpeakE!r, or did a li tt1e bird fly in and drop a note and leave it on rny desk. I believe that is what the Speaker said. So the han. gentlemen when they were over here, Mr. Speaker, used the provisions of the Standing Order to appeal thE! Speaker 1 s ruling on a number of occasions during my tirne here. We can do that, we might do that.

I do not know yet, but we arE! appE!aling to Your Honour to understand, and I know )IOU do, that thE:' Government House Leader could not be properly recognized and that is the nub of our point of privilege, could not be recogniZE!d toda),l unlE!SS he stood to present a petition, unless he wantE•d to make a point of Order or unless he wanted to make a point of privilege. He did not stand to do- any of that. He L38 March 27, 1990 Vol XLI • stood to move Standing Ot~dc~r 21.

I say to Your Honour by acCE!pting that and the ar-guments put forth to sustain that, ever),' Member over here not every Member over here toda),l, Mr. Speaker, but. ev~ :!ry Member over here Forevermore. That is lAlh),l, Mr. SpE!akE:1ln, OUln rules say that if our ruh'!S atne silent we have to look to precedence. If precedence is silent we can look to the House of Commons in . Ottawa, but . if our · rules are not silent, Mr.

Speaker, if our rules are not silent, and in this case they are far from silent, they are abundant.ly cleatn, tl1at is why our tnuJ.es atnE! lAJOt "decl that way so that the first consideraU.on thi:l.t a Speaketn rnu~> 1'. give, Mr. SpE:'aker, is l:.o our ouJn r u 1 e s . Not what M l" . 0 l: t e n h Ed. rn E! r' said or Mr. Speaker Aylwat"d sai.d, that is a consideration if our rules are silent. Not IAJhat has happened in the House of Cornrnons, that is a consideration if our rules arE! si1en t. . Our rulE!S arE! not silE•nt, and the Gov1:!r'nlm!nt House Leader could not be recognized, Mr. SpeakE!r, today .

My colleaguE• lAJas standin~~ and be cau s c~ he was not rc~ cognized ht s privilegE•s arE! breachE!d. Each and every one of us have had our privileges breached and each and every Member who IAlill ever come into this L..egislatlnne a~Fd.n t:o s:i.'t. in the Opposition, will have to live under that improper decision, that Wl"ong decision l:.hal:. t.~,Jas rnacl1?. :in 1984 and concutnl"ed aga:i.n today by Your Honour. We just Ci:'lnnot allow it to stand, Mr. Speaker .

It is too important For the privileges of parliamE!lYtat "Y democracy, to important For the privileges of parliamentary democracy for which people died, Mr. Speaker, to protect and defend. We cannot allolJ.J it l:o happen, that we ca nnot spend as 1nuch t:i.nw as we lJ.Jish to on any No . 11 (AftE!rnoon) R38

~ given day as an Opposition, or a Government Private Member for that matter presenting petitions. Oh the Premier could use his authority today, Mr. Speaker, to sit down a Minister of Works, Services and Transportation . The Premier could do that under a routine order called Statements by Ministers. He could do that. He has the authority that controls what the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation does. MR. SPEAKER: I would ask Opposition to privilege and it up please. the Leader of the get. to his point of keep to it and clue MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Sir.

That could be donE! and was done, but nobody can ask any Private Member of this House, Mr. Speaker, ).east of all the Government, least of all Mr. Speaker, nobody can · demand that any private Member of this House voluntarily sit. on their haunches and watch their priviJ.eges be taken away from them day after day. What happened here today must be corrected. If we have not got the sense in this Parliament to correct it, some othE!r Parliam~~nt hopefully sorneti1ne is going to have the sense to correct it, because this is dangerous. This is the majority, M1~.

Speaker, taking the minority ~nd hobnail booting them into the ground, .that is what this is. sacred. Any SpE!akE!r, if I five petitions the Member· for Not a privilege is day at all now, Mr. corn e up h'e r e uli t h or two petitions or Green Bay comes up two, any day at all 1..39 with one somebody or can March 27, 1990 Vol XLI stand on the other side of the House and move that it• all collapse under Standing Order 21. Your Honour knows, everybody knows, that was not and is not l:.h1:> intention of Standing Order 21. Standing Order 21 tAJas when thE!re were motions before thE!

HouSE! and all the motions are outlined under Standing Order 14 and the order in which they can be before trll?. House. In fact a Government motion is number four on Lhe priority list so if there were so~e other motion on, if there was a third rE!ading on, if thE!r'e uJas a Comrnit·tee oF the Whole on, if thE!re was a SE!COnd reading on, the Government House Lea<h•r cou1d use the Standing Ord(!ln 21 to say, okay, that is enough. We are not going any further than th:i.s.

Tl·w Opposition is creating a filibuster on a third reading of a particular Bill and I arn qoing to use the provision order of Standing Order 21 to · ki11 that and get on to another piece of business. That. is what. Starid'.i.ng Order 21 is all about. It is about the running of this Legislature when the routine Orders of t:he Day haVE! beE!n dea1 t with. That is what tt :i.s about, Mr.

Speaker, and in that conh'xt if this ruJ.ing that was made :i.n 1984, concurred in today, is aJ.J.owed to stand, then no Opposition Me1nb1:!r ever again w·.i.l1 be able to use the rights and privileges that was conferred on that Member when he, or she was elected, to present p13tit.ions, not to present a pE!t.'ition, to prE!SE!nt petitions, any number of l:ht~m. a dozen of thern tf a person so wishes, 9500 of th.:'ITI il~ tho person so wishes and got them day afte1n day, day after day. The most elector in sacred th'is right Province No. 11 (Afternoon) of is an to IB<J

petition their elected House of Assembly. How many times did I hear the former Member for Bell Island and LaPoile, Mr. Neary, say that. The most sacred right of every person in this Province is to petition directly to their elected Legislature. That is what we want to do. We want to continue to do it and we want to continue to do it because the privileges and the rights of Members of this House give it to us so to do . MR. SPEAKER : The Hon. the Premier. PREMIER WELLS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. All this nonsense that we hear corning from the other side has to be addressed.

It is really not deserving of being addressed but I want to take just a couple of minutes to do it. The hon. the Government House Leader has made it quite clear just how illogical and silly their argument is about motions. The fact is if the Leader of the Opposition werE! correct in his proposition, the rule 21 would never be there because there would never have been any need for it, as the Government House Leader said. It could never be used under any circurns·tance because once you are into Orders of the Day what is the point of moving Orders of the Day.

So the lack of logic and the stupidity of it just fills this House. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! PREMIER WELLS: As, Mr. Speaker, it is going to fill the electorate of this Province who are watching this. L4-0 March 27, 1990 Vol XLI SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER WELLS: Now what we --are talking about herE! is not the tyranny of the rnaj ori ty, ti1E! rnaj ori ty of Uri. s House, Mr. Speaker, want to have an open public debate on this issue of Meech Lake.

What. tJJe are talking about herE! is the tyranny of the minority who will not allow and who are attempting to use thE! rules of this House to prevent the business of the public of this Province to be debal:r:-d in a s<.'l.ne and sensible democratic way. And, Mr. Speaker, if they tJJant an election on that issue they may well have one, if they persist. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER WELLS : Mr.

Speaker, I atrt not gcdng to sit:. in this House a~d see Members opposite take the House on thEd.r b a c k , ins u l t Your Honour , ·as h i'l. s been done her·e this afternoon, defy Your Honour's rultng, one aftE!r thE! other, as has bE•en donE:! here this afternoon without taking some steps to protect Your Honour's position. And if there is no other way to do H: tAJ:i .t hi n the rules of this House I will ask the electorate of this Province to do it and let there business be debated in a proper way. S Q.M E H ON . M ~.!'1.§_.~~~. : Hear, hear! PREMIER WELLS : Now, Mr. Speaker, I am going to plead with the hon.

Members of this House to put. t: he inter e s t o r· the pE!Ople of this PJ"ovinCE! fi.l"st: and foremost, and allow for free open and public debate on this issue when a11 ME:'Jnbr~rs opposite can say - No. 11 (AFternoon) 1\40

• SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I do believe that thE! hon. the Leader of the Opposition was heard in silence and the Premier is getting shouting and heckling from the othE!r side. Every Mernbl'::~r is entitled to silence in the House. The hon. the Premier. PREMIER WELLS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Now, Mr. Speaker, again I arn going to remind hon. Members of this House that all of us may have strong opinions on this as a very significant issue.

But the people of this Province tJJho elected all of us and who arE! paying us fo1n what we are doing here this afternoon do not forget that either. And it is their money that we are using up, w~o are paying us for· these shenanigans that are happening. Do not forget, Min. Speaker, that we have a duty to the people of this Province to allow issues to be debated in a free and open democratic way so that the han. the Leader of the Opposi I: ion (Mr. Rideout), the Member for Burin Placentia West (Mr. Tobin), the Member for Mount Pearl (Mr. Windsor), the Member for Grand Bank (Mr.

Matthews), the Member for Humber East (Ms. Uerqe), whoever wants to can have their say in a propE•r JJ.Jay, and we lAJi.ll sit in silence and allotJJ thE!m to listen to what they say, and if thE!Y rnake sense will probably be movc,~d to act on the basis of what they say.

But we are not going to be moVE!d to act on the basis of the nonsense they are producing L li-1 March 27, 1990 Uol XLI here this frustrating workings of the afternoon completely House. and the Now the people of this Province are going to call on Members of this House to pay the price for what they do to the t.imE! of the people and to the interE•st of t:he people of this Province. And if that is thE! objE!Ct.i.VE! thE!n I do not rnind going to the peoplE! i:.'tncl asking them to judge both sides on their performance in the Hous1:! today. Min.

Speaker, th:i.s is an important issue for the people of the Province and thE! country. And H.: should be debatc:•d in a propE!r lAJay and dE!aJ.t tAJi.th in a proper tJJay. And these spurious points of privilege that lAJB havE• hE:~ar'cl orH:. aft1:!r the other, to d1"!libe'ratE•ly dE!fy Your' Honour's J~uJ.tng, and that. is the sole purpose of Lh'c'Jn. Your Honour has ruled on t:hern. Your Honour has also ruled that the position does not 0onst~tute a point of privilege, and it. is WE!ll known, it is cl.ear to E•VE!lnybody that as long as the rules of LhE!

House are being folJ.owed it cannot possibly bl'::~ a point of pr'ivi.le•Je. They do not like the rules that they as k1"!d be folloJJ.Jf!d tJJhen l:hey sat here. They caused that precedent l:o take place. rhey arl:! the ones tJJho propounded. NotAl they are hypocritically saying it should be otherwise. It was a wrong ruling at that time. Now, Mr. SpeakE:~r. the busin'''SS of thE! peop1e _of this . PJ"ovince takes precedence over the spurious attempts of t:hE! Opposition to prevent public open debate on th1~ major issue in this country today, as well as in t.his Province today. I plead wit:. h ho n. ME!I'I'IbE!

I" s to put the interest of the peoplE! of this Province ahead of the i r No. 11 (A ft:E:'Innoon) I~ 4-1

• own political interest or the political interest of their confreres in Ottawa. AN HON. MEMBER: Right on . PREMIER WELLS: "i--re m :i n a-·-"-C'Fie m 1 we all have a public affairs proper way. Mr. Speaker, that duty to allow the to be debated in a SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MS VERGE: Mr . Speaker . ~JL ... _§J> E A ~ .. E,; __ R : The Chair is ready to make a ruling . Was the han. the Member for