Volume 3 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 3rd. Session VERBATIM REPORT FRIDAY, JUNE 7, 1974 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL •· Number 76

June 7. 1974 The House met at 3:00 P.~ . Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape 1718 (afternoon) PETITIONS: lfR SPEAK.ER: The Honourable Member for Bay De Vercle : MR. HOWARD: I beg leave to present a petition signed by 157 voters IB-1 from Grates Cove.

The prayer of the petition is that we the undersigned petition the Newfoundland Government to have the road from the highway leading to Bay de Verde from Grates Cove, a distance of five miles, paved as in its present condition it is impossible to maintain cars and trucks,as every day tires are being spoiled by cuts from shale put on the road. 11 This road is our only way of conveyance for all food, oils and anything else required besides transporting fish and fish products. We humbly submit this petition and pray that you will give it your earnest consideration and grant us our request.

Otherwise , we will be compelled to move to some other area after hundreds of years situated in one of the best fishing villages in Newfoundland.• Mr. Speaker, there is not very much I can add to what has already been said in the prayer of the petition. I do support it wholeheartedly and urge the government to act and have this road paved as soon as possible. MR. WOODWARD: Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House support the petition presented by the member for Bay de Verde for the upgrading of a road from Grates Cove to Bay de Verde.

We, Sir, feel that the Minister of Transportation and Communications who is not in his seat - I understand that he is away and the acting minister is ;r;;ay today. He is not here to bear the petition. Well, we feel that as every member in this House has submitted a petition at one time for highroads and upgrading of roads in their district, that the capable, able Ministe~ of Finance will see fit to provide sufficient funds to see that the needs of the people in Grates Cove and Bay de Verde are taken care of. 6919

Jnne 7, 1974 Tape 1718 IB-2 REPORTS OF STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES: HON. E. MAYNARD (MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE AND FORESTRY): Mr. Speaker, I think it is the appropriate time - t-fR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! The member for St. Georges may have been a little hesitant in rising to his feet but still he wants to present a petition. MR. DUNPHY: If Your Honour will permit, I do have a petition here which I wish to present on hehalf of the citizens in the Codroy Valley and more specifically the people that live in the area of St. Andrews and Searston.

They are requesting the paving of roads linking Searston with St. Andrews and the portion of road running from St. /mdrews to the Radio Range, an overall distance of approximately seven miles still unpaved. Some years back, as a matter of fact just about two years ago, there was considerable paving done in the r.odroy Valley. At that particular time there was this large

section which takes in a lot of farm cotmtry, a lot of farms, a very productive area in root crops. This road is used extensively hy the people. There has been nothing done with it other than grading which it occasionally gets. That is not too often. I think the time has come when these people should be given consideration in paving programmes. I endorse this petition. I support it. I hope that the powers that be will sec that they do something about it and that possibly we can get it at the latest next year. So, I would like for this to be tabled and referred to the department to which it relates. MR. STAGG: Mr.

Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to support the petition so ably presented by my honourable colleague in the adjoining district of St. C.eorges. I was under the impression that there was nothing left to be paved in St. Georges and this . was a petition to pave some cabbage pa~ches, but I understand there are still a few roads that the honourable member has not paved as yet. Certainly the case he makes for them is very reasonable and I heartily endorse and support the petition. 6920

June 7, 1974 Tape 1718 IB-3 MR. E. ROBERTS (LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION): Mr. Speaker, the overwhelming eloq~ence of the gentleman from St. Georges and underpowering eloquence of the member from Port au Port has prompted me to say a word or two of support of this petition. Of course we on this side would like to see it granted. I know that when the member for St. Georges lays down his priorities it will include this particular stretch of road. I think it should. In supporting this petition, I 1-•ould like to congratulate the member for St. Georges. I may have done him a disservice and I wish to remedy that.

He announced there would be some paving done in his district. The Minister of Transportation knew nothing of it nor had he authorized any announcement. Lo and behold! It turned out that the member for St. Georges knew what he was talking about after all. So, I think that is a cause for congratulations. The Minister of Transportation should hang his head in shame over it but the member for St. C,eorges should hold his head high and proudly so. I would hope that his record of success with this particular project will be as great as was his record of success with the one he previously announced.

His record of success in the next election will be equaled only by that of the gentleman from P;t.acentia West. So, the only problem -we have, ~r. Speaker, with the gentleman from Placentia West is there is going to be a real fight for the nomination to run against him. People are politically trying to kill each other for the pleasure and the privilege of running against the gentleman from Placentia West. Sir, the gentleman from Placentia West could not get re-elected if he were the only name on the ballot down there. That is his situation. I do want to support the petition. I do think the gentleman from St.

Georges made the case well and very effectively and certainly he convinced all of us to support him on it. MR. MAYNARD: Mr. Spe~er, over the past several years the original Department of Mines and Agriculture and Resources.in the last couple of years the Department of Forestry and Agriculture, has been involved in a programme with the federal government to develop a Canada land 6921

Jtme 7, 1974 Tape 1718 IB-4 inventory which took into acconnt all aspects of natural rasource development in the province. The Canada land inventorv was plotted 1out on a series of maps which were quite large. The resource atlas which developed from the Canada land inventory was the type that one could not very well reproduce. I felt that the information contained in the Canada land invPntnrv shou]d he made available on a general basis, so we havP lwe n successful in getting a number of resourc e atlas printed. The present resource atlas that I have here is a fairly large document.

I am sure th a t all honourable members will he quite interested in the infonnation contained in it. It has been done up in a fairly good form. It is now available for distribution. We just had a ten-wheeler tandem truck hack into our place the other day with a full load aboarc so there should he enou1(n for c>vervone.

Unfortunately at this time the data contained in the resource atlas is only for the Island of Newfoundl:md,hecause the Labrador area has not been completed although it is still in the works and the resource atlas is done up in such a way that the data for Labrador can be adderl on at a later date once it is finished. However, it js a good basis for resource planning, land-use planning in the province. I am distributing today to the members of the House of Assemblv copies of the resource atlas. They will be distributed free to government departments, schools and libraries across the province.

Any copies over ancl al:>ove that obviously will have to get printed at a fair cost,and the cost will be chargeable to any people that want them. I am very pleased to be able to present this atlas. Now since it is a big document, if the members of the House do not want I to take one at this time, the copies are available in the Speaker's office for anyone who does want it. MR. ROBERTS: Inaudible. MR. MAYNARD: Well, the cost of printing we arc told is between three to five dollars ner <ttlas.

So all we would need to recover would be the cost of the printing itself. 'I-le do have enough copies at this time to go to all schools and libraries in the province as well as 6922

June 7, 1974 Tape 1718 government departments and the opposition. So, I will table this copy, Mr. Speaker, and anyone who wants a copy can study it. ~- SPEAKER: Order, please! IB-5 ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: HON, DR. A.T. ROWE (~INISTER OF HEALTH): Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the answer to 1/uestion No. 92 of the Order Paper of J\llle 6. (See Index Attached) ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. MARTIN: MR.

Speaker, a question for the honourable the ~inister of Forestry and Agriculture pertaining to the statement just made: Now that we have the resources atlas for the province of Newfoundland, the i 'sland of Newfoundland, I was w11ndering if he could tell us when we might get the remaining sheets for the province's colonial territory of Labrador. MR. MAYNARD: When the Canada land inventory agreemrnt was signed with the federal government, ~r. Speaker, the Labrador area was not included. None of the northern areas of Canada were included at that time.

Northern Alberta, for instance, ~.anitoba, the Northwest Territories, Yukon, Labrador and Northern Quebec were left out. It was generally the mid and Southern portion of Canada as a whole. It is only in the last year or so that we have been able to do some work. For instance, the forest inventory survey is being completed for Labrador. We are fairly sure now that the Canada land inventory as such will be extended. The federal people have not really given a commitment to it at this time but the Canada land inventory should he extended to Labrador.

In the meantime, we are gathering as much infonnation as we can from a provincial level to get the necessary data on Labrador, I would assume that it is going to take a couple of more years before the type of detailed data that is available for mid-Canada and Southern Canada parts of Canada. be available for the Northern MR. MARTIN: A supplementary to that, Mr. Speaker. Perhaps I should direct this to the honourable the Premier since it concerns all of the resource departments. Does this mean then that resource development 6923

June 7, 1974 Tape 1718 planning for the whole of the area including Labrador await that land inventory report? IB-6 will have to HON. F.D. MOORES (PREMIER): Mr, Speaker, the answer to that is no, absolutely not. In any provincial planning right now, in the commission report Labrador will be as front and foremost as any other part of the province. This was a resource map which was done and I might say that it is an excellent document. I only wish that it had been done - I was disappointed that it was not done for Labrador at the same time.

However, any social or governmental progrannnes that we have now will incorporate Labrador equally if not. probably because of past neglect,more so than any other part of the province. "1R. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a question I guess in the first instance to the Minister of 'forestry and Agriculture al though perhaps it shoul cl have been directed to the Premier. It is ahnut the Reid lands. J wonder if ti- 11cll.

Sir, T cni:lcl phr11se it a number of wavs but the best wav •1n 11 1 <1 t>P to ask the minister if he would bring the House up to date with respect to the negotiations betueen the government on one hand and the Reid interests on the other hand.with respect to the possible acquisition by the government of the lands owned by the Reid Newfoundland Limited. MR. MAYNARD: l\'e have had several meetings with the Reid interests over the past couple of months, Mr. Speaker.

I cannot,state exact figures that have been exchanged between the two parties at this time but maybe I should put it this way, that the figures are much closrr together. Government has not increased their assessment of the value of the Reid lands all that much, The value on the other hand has decreased considerably. I do feel that we can come to some sort of an agreement. I However, it is going to be another week or so I would think before we can make a definitive statement on the matter. MR, ROBERTS: A supplementary question, Mr.

Speaker: Are we to understand - I think we are but I want to be sure that negotiations are proceeding and that they are proceeding on what seems to be a basis that may well lead to an acceptable result, a sale by the Reid, 6924

June 7, 1974 Tap·e 1718 IB-7 and a purchase by the government of the lands in question ·. Are we to understand that? MR. MAYNARD: Well, yes, the negotiations are proceeding or. the basis that government will eventually reacquire the Reid lands for a reasonatle sum of money. In the meantime, the Reid interests have agreed not to try to sell or sell or trv to dispose of any lands they now hold or any properties thEy now hold until such time as the agreement between government is either worked out or breaks down indefinitely.

In the meantime, while negotiations are going on, there is no selling nor disposing of the Reid property. NR. nPNPHY: "Ir. Sneaker, I wouJ d like to ask the honourable "'inister of Agriculture and Forestry a ques~ion. I w~nder would he clarify this for me and tell me: "Land capahility for ungulates·'- would he explain that to me please. I have sort of missed that. 1'<R. M.AYNARD: l1ngulates are wildlife in general, Mr. Speaker. ~~R. ROBERTS: I was asked thii:: morning by a fellow who got the wrong thin~s asked about wildlife. I said the only wildlife I knew was that across the House. He got the point of it.

I guess he got hold of the Tourism Department eventually. "'r. Speaker, is the Minister of Health in a position to tell us whether he will tahle the documents which I asked about yesterday? DR. ROWE: I am considering the question, ~r. Sneaker. MR. ROBEFTS: A supplementary auestion. Would the minister tell the House why he is hiding the documents, Mr. Speaker? DR. ROWE: I am not hiding documents, "Ir. Speaker. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, tqe minister is.

Would the minister confirm or deny the fact that the recommendation of the Task Force with respect to the Grand Falls Hospital has recommended a closing of the Botwood !'Ospital and also the closing of the Buchans ~ospital? DR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, there are multiple rerommendations in the various reports that have been received. I do not plan to be specific on any policies that government will announce. The recommendations have been made but ·are not ~ecessarily government policy. These are recommendations in reports upon which government will develop its policy. 6925

June 7, 1974 Tape 1718 IB-8 ?-IR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, did the minis ter con fi m or deny the fact that those recommendations were in the report with respect to central Newfoundland? I think he did confirm them. I want to be sure. DR. ROWE: time . MR. ROBERTS: I said tha.t I would not be specific, 1'1r. Speaker, at this In other words, the honourable minister did confinn them. Okay , I have seen the reports . On motion of the honourable the Minister of ~ines and Energy. a bill, "

An Act Respect in~ The Newfoundland Power Corporation,•· read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the hon-ourable the Ministe r of ,Education, a hill, "

An Act Further To Amend The :,!emorial l'niversi ty Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on to1:10rrow. On motion of the honourable the Minister of r'inance, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The t'ublic Service (Pensi ons)A ct," read a first t ime, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the honourable the "inister of Justice, a bill, "

An Act To Amend The Ne1o1foundland Registered Nurses I Act," read a fi rst time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. 6926

June 7, 1974 Tape No. 1719 NM - 1 MR. MARSHALL: This is what appeared as Motion ( 1) yesterday which is a Conmittee of the Whole to consider resolutions with respect to the raising of monies for the purchase of BRINCO,of the interests of that company. MR. ROBERTS: Inaudible. MR. MARSHALL: Is dehate on that order finishe<l? Oh, yes! Tam sorry! Tt should remain really as motion, !le are not in Committee of the Whole on it. Anywav, we wi 11 call ••l der (1) as the 1'\0tion then• Mr, Speaker. On motion that the House go into Committee of the Whole, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR. CHIIIRMAN (Mr. Stagg): Order please!

Now when we adjourned yesterday the honourable the Minister of Finance was speaking. The honourable the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. L. BARRY: Mr, Chairman, after that magnificent exposition yesterday by the Minister of Finance, there is not too much left to be told on this tremendous accompli hment by our government in recovering control of our hydro resources in Labrador but perhaps I might attempt to give some of the more technical details and to explain more fully, in greater detail,just why it was so important to our province for our government to acquire control of the hydro resources of Labrador. Mr.

Chairman, we have already tabled the report of the consultants that we had study the feasibility of bringing power from the Lower Churchill to the Island of Newfoundland. In this report, Mr. Chairman, there was an awful lot for any of us to study and to absorb. The first time you read it you get probably a quarter of the contents. This is based upon a nwnber of other volumes. It is a summation of a number of other volumes and there . is a lot of material here. But one thing that is stressed right at the beginning of this report, Mr. Chairman, in the second chapter, the

chapter following the

summary of the findings and conclusions,is that poorer nations or regions can not attain a high level of economic development without an intensive and intelligent use of energy. Mr. Chairman, that statement is well supported by statistics. Not just across Canada but around the world you 6927

June 7, 197'i Tape No. 1719 NM-2 will fin<l that the countries and ref(ions that had an intelligent energy policv are the countries and regions that advanced industrially, economj_cally and even socially and culturally. So that energy is inextricably tied in with our future deveJopment as a province and, Mr. Chairman, it was iust unacceptable to our government to have a third party, a private company whose main ob.iective - this is not a criticism - as common sense tells it should be, was the profit makinp, motive.

It was unacceptable to our government to have this third party blocking or in a position to interfere with or to delay the imple­ mentation of an enerr,v policy fc,r 'le~1foundland which would see the wisest and the most i ntelJ irent use of our energy resources. 'lo government, l·'r, Chairman, in this day an<l age, could put up with such a situation, and that ~,as the situation that we found c,urselves in. ~•ow we did not .iump to any hasty conclusions. \~e did nut rush in the day after this administration Wa!S elected to office and say: "Go away P.lHNCO ! Pe do not want to deal with you.

We are goin.r. to take back everythinp you have been l!i.ven over the years." Whatever th.e temptation ni~ht have been to some of us, Mr. Chairman. there was a very seri.ons - ~ WOOD'?ARl) Mr. Chairman, T would not want this fine speech to go unheard, so I suggest that we should have some members in to listen to the substance of the soeech. MR HARRY: T would agree with the honourahle memher opposite. I arr.ee totally with him. !1R ROBERTS: I guarantee you we would not call a quorum. MR CHAIR~~: We have a quorul!I.

For the infonnation of honourable gentlemen who have been waiting in th~ wings for. the three minutes warning or for the three minutes to be up~ the three minutes were very nearly up before the quorum got in. "1R BARRY: Mr. Chairman, as I was saying: after an attempt to nep:otiate reasonable terms for the development of one of our specific hydro resources, 6928

June 7, 1974 Tape No.1719 NM-3 the Lower Churchill or Gull Island resources, after attempting to negoti­ ate a satisfactory development with this third party, this profit-motivated corporation that had been placed in a position, to a certain extent, to.frustrate government policy, our government concluded that we had to take measures to get back control of our resources so that we could implement the proper energy policy for the Province of Newfoundland. ~r. Chairman, this was the essence of the clecision to approach nRINCO initially with our decision to purchase hack our hydro resources in Labrador.

Now one thing I would like to make quite clear, !-Ir. Chairman, is that there is no intention on the part of this government to rape Labrador - which is a phrase which the honourable member for Labrador North is fond of using in this Eouse. Very quickly in the course of negotiations it was r.:ade a major point i.n the negotiating process that there would be no development of Cull Island, no agreement with BRINCO unless there were a tr:msmission line constructed from GulJ Tsland to the Coast of Labrador: specifically to the Happy Valley-Goose Bay Area. MR WOODWARD: Inaudible.

MR BARRY: To Lake Melville and then on to the coast. How far is he away from the Coast? Mr. Woodward: One hundred and ei~hty-five miles. MR ROBERTS: They do not have salt water. MR BARRY: No salt water? MR WOODWARD: No, no salt water. MR ROBERTS: No salt water. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Is this coming out of the honourable minister's time now? · MR BARRY: I hope this debate, Mr. Chairman, is not r,oing to be included in my time. MR ROBERTS: Inaudible. MR BARRY: I am sorry about that. Anyhow,Mr. Chairman, it is history now.

We, the day before yesterday, signed an agreement which gives this government control of the hydro re­ sources of our province. 6929

Jun·e 7, 1974 Tape No.1719 Now let l!le J!ive you a few reasons, Mr. <:hairl!lan, as to why control of the Upper Churchill Development was so important for the development of the Lower Churchill: First of all, both the <:hurchill Falls plant and the Gull Island installation, as you know, are on a single river system and they require ,m inter.rated operation for the maximum utiliation of the available water. This can be achieved most effectively by a unified ownership, obviously.

Secondly, it is cl ear that there will be some economic advantage to Newfoundland consumers in having the surplus power, while this surplus is not neerled for provincial needs, export .ed to the 1'rovince of Quebec. Mr. Chairl!lan, it is obviously highly undesirahle for this province to have to deal throngh an intermediary, to deal through a private corporation in negotiating the terms under which such i;ale of surplus power (I stress the fact that it would be surplus power.) highly undesirable to have to deal through a third party in order to arrive at the terms for such sale.

The only reason 'such sales will be made shall he because by so doing we could brin!! down the price to the '-lewfoundland consumer and the cost of the overall development would he brought down. Mr. Chairman, the development of the Lower Churchill was so closely and intimately tied in with the operation of the Upper r.hurchi 11 that it quickly became obvious that it would be a very f>:reat advantage to our province if we had control of the Upper Churchill Development. Mr. Chairman, this we have now acquired.

Apart from this short-term advantage that I pointed out, we also have the fact that there is a tremendous hydro potential in Labrador. At a time when the east coast of Canada is dependent 11pon petroleum -products supplied by foreign countries for its energ)' neec1 s, at a time when our federal government is stressing the east coast of Canada to develop security of supply of its energy source, we have, ~r. Chairman, the equivalent of-millions and millions of barrels of petroleum running to the sea every day in Labrador. 6930

June 7, 1974 Tape No .1719 NM-5 If I may, just to emphasize this, to give some indication of what the Gull Island Site itself, the development of the Gull Island Site means in terms of fossil fuel equivalent: The Gull Island Site is estimated to produce 1,681') megawatts. The equivalent of the annual production at the plaot will be estimated to be eleve,n point sixty-five ki.1 owatt hours. That is equivalent, ''r. Chairman, to approximately eighteen million barrels of ~o.6 fuel oil. '.·IB. ROBERTS : A year? MR BARRY: Okay! Eighteen million barrels a year.

In other words, development of the site will be the same as finding an oil well which would produce over 1n,ooo harrels a day forever, a renewable resource. So that not just in the context of acqu:irinit security of supply for Eastern Canada, Mr. Chairman, but in the context of the depletion of our world energy supplies we have a renewahle resource here which at the present time is runninp, to the sea unused, Now there are other rivers. The honourable member for Labrador North is aware of the p,reat potential in his district and in Labrador South, the great hydro potential.

It is not a simple matter of going in and damming up all these rivers and flooding all of Labrador. There is no government that would be so stupid as to say that is the proper resource development. There is obviously going to have to be in future a choice of alternatives between resources. There are going to be mineral resources, for example, forest resources which have to be traded off and balanced against the possible hydro resources that could be developed. That has to be done everywhere in the world. We are very much aware that it has to be done in Labrador as well. But we can say, Mr.

Chairman, without any shadow of doubt at all, that there is a great undeveloped energy potential in Labrador which at the present time is being wasted. There is there a great energy potential which can improve the lot of our Newfoundland people; and by this I mean the people of Labrador more so than the people on the Island of Newfoundland. At the same time it is an energy potential that can be developed to imrrove the lot of all Canadians. 6931

June 7, H74 Tape :-lo. 1719 NM-6 (\ne of the most important and si~nificant, even if only in psycholoii;i­ cal terms, develonments that we wi.11 see when Gull Island comes on stream is that we will have le~,rfoundland hoo ked into a na::ional power !!,rid· we will have Newfoundland hooked into t he tipper r.hurchill Developm ent chroup,h either a submarine cable or a tunnel holdinp. a land cable . Twill exr lain that in a minute. This will in turn be tied in to the Upper Churchil I Development and in turn be tied in to the Hydro Queb ec System. So that rir.ht awAy, Mr.

Chairman , in Qt1e fell swoop we move from )lewfoundlnnd heinr. an isolated electrica I system - 1,1bich it is toda y - into 1-iavinp Newfoundland tied in to a national power izricl where. right aw,iy at1d just i n:rn that verv fact alone, there arc Rreat economic advantap,es. There can be trade-offs of power 693 2

June 7, 1974 Tape 1720 (Afternoon) PK-1 when it is our peak period here it is not the peak period in Quebec so that they can have some of their energy flowing to Newfoundland to meet our peak, so that we do not have to put in additional generating plants just to meet our peak periods, It is the same way with Quebec. Their pe~k period is different from ours so that we can flow energy into Quehec when it is not our peak period and that saves them having to put men, money, materials into building costly additional generat­ ing plants.

That is an economic advantage of having the };ewfoundland system tied into the national grid. Now, ~r. Chairman, obviously, with such important considerations, we could not have this governmen~ in the position of having to deal through a third party, having to deal through an intermediary, through 'l corporation which, as I say again, is primarily profit motivated . That is not a criti .cism· that is a fact of life. The responsibility of the directors of. BRINCO was to ensure the greatest possible return to the shareholders of the company.

Their primary objective was not to ensure the lowest cost of power to the consumer in Newfoundland. That js the responsibility of this ~overrunent, Mr. Chairman: that was not the responsibility of a prof.it-motivated corporation. However phi]anthrophic or however civic minded a corporation might be, we still have the un- escapable fact that the sole and primary purpose or if ~ot the sole purpose then the pri111ary purpose for the existence of a private corporation is to make money for its shareholders. A,~ HONOURABLE MEMBER: That is strange. MR BARRY: That is not strange: that is a fact of life.

What is strange to me is how a previous administr2tion, recognizing this fact, could have given up the lifeblood of our province for years to come, the energy resources of our province to a privately held corporation. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: It is easy to he wise after the fact. MR BARRY: Yes, l concede that. I concede that it is easy to be wise after the fact: and I realize that the decision was not easy, Mr. Chairman, and I concede that the previous administration did not have an easy task 6933

.Tune 7, 1':711 Tape 1720 · l'K-2 in getting the T!pper Churchill development, but l wil~ reserve my ri!!ht to say, ~r. Chairman, that I think they could have done better; I think the people of Newfoundland think they could have done better. 1-lr. ~peaker, we could sweep the country on this bill that is before us here today. As a matter of fact, Mr. Chaitman, T think it quickly became obvious to the people of Newfoundland that the onposition were not goinr, to criticize it. As a matter of fact there was a period, there were weeks there when we were waiting and when we only heard froM '1r.

Smallwood we were wondering if he were speaking for the opr,osition. Not a sound, not a whimper from the members across the House. One of the bigf(est decisions ever made by any government in Newfoundland and not a sound from across the J-Touse. , :cfy conclusion, Mr. Chaiman, had to be that they were waitinp to see which way the people were ~oinr: they woul,J follow the tide, they would jump on the bandwagon then. Leadership? Mr. Chairman:, <lid we see leadership? Did we see constructive criticism?

Did we see sup,gestions from the honourable members opposite? '1o, we d:ld not: we saw total silence on the <lecisinn, Mr, Chairman, as to whether or not this government should take control of its hydro resources in Labrador. That was the issue: that was the decision nac!e. •~hat di<l we hear from the honourable members opposite? Not a sound! 'fot a sound! As l said, Hr..

Chairman, and if I could just re-emphasize the fact that ,inst the development of the r.ull Island Site means the oi] equivalent of an oil well producing 50,000 barrels a day, forever. ~ow that is with the development of Gull Island: approximately 1,600 megawatts. Mr. Chairman, apart from Gull Island, if you total up the potential of all the river systeffls - obviously they would not all I be deveJoped. They would not all be economic to develop, there would be other reasons for not developing them but we have, Mr. Chairman, in excess of another 9,000 megawatts in Labrador. 6934

-~ .Tune 7, 1974 Tape 1720 Think of the oil equivalent, think of the energy potential and think of what this can do for our province and for Canada. PK-3 Now the honourable member for Bell Island, who unfortunately is not here today hut I hope somebody will pass on the good word to him, has heen picking away at and telling about all the problems. As a matter of fact I do not think anybody on the other side is really comitted to pushing forward this great project, this Gull Island development, the develooment of our hydro resources.

It seens to me that they are only interested in pointing out all the problems there are in r,ettinp this development, all the dangers, all the pitfalls. Total negativism with no cont=:tn,ctive comment at all! Mr. ChairMan, I would ask hQnourable members opposite to start usinr, their influence wi.th their colleagues in Ottawa and getting hehind this development because it will mean great things for the people of Newfoundland.

It is perhaps one of the most important decisions that can be made at the present time, ln terms of influcncinr, our economic and social life over the next ten, fifteen or twenty years. \1hat do we have from the other side? Either total silence or harpin g criticism, tota 11)• negative, harp in ?; critic ism: 11r. Chairman, the honour ah le member for Bell Island asked the other day or if he did not ask he said: "Look, it is not shown that it is technically feasible to brinr. power from Gull Island to the Island of Newfoundland. That is total nonsense, ~r.

Chairman, as it has been shown that it it=: technically feasible. Tread from the report by the consultants employed by this government to do the study: and this has not been attacked by the federal government - this has not been attacked by the federal g~vernment. I will explain what is happenin~ with the federal government in a moment. Let me explain that it is the finding of this study that the Gull Island Project is technically feasible.

Now that is the conclusion of a reputahle number of Canadian companies, the major companies in Canada connected with the electrical industry placing their reputations on the line and they are saying that it is the finding of this study that the Gull Island project is technically feasible. The honourable member for Bell Island is criticisinR that, with his great background in 6935

June 7, F)7 1• Tape ] 720 KM-4 electrical engineerinr,. I do not know if the honourahle member for Labrador ''orth is doing the same thinp;. Mr. Chairman, there is some question as to the best method of coming across the :,traits of Be 11 Isle: as to whether we should come across vj" ,'l sub!'larine cable, which would be the che.apest method, or wh<>tht•r it ts worthwhile going a total tunnel route, because that would gi.ve us greater security, greater protection from ice, greater protection I from rock ridges on which t:he cahles would he hanginp. and on which they could possibly be worn and what not.

There are some additional dangers in not going the tunnel route. There is the pro!:: l= of spawling rocks which could <lamage the cahle, falling ro,:J ,s ii, the tunnel )!r. Chairman, we realize all of the answers ara not pivcn · there is no total cen:ainty in this, as in very few things in life h; thPre total c:ertai nty. 1'here wi 11 be additional worl~ r1one this stmnner which will give us the final answer. There is no r,nestion hut either sul,marine c.:iJ,lc or tunnel; one or the otllf'r is technically feasihle, if not both.

It is a _question of determining which is the better method, and that is the only real technical question that the officials in the Department of Energy, 1-fines and P.esources in Ottawa have hcd ahout this study. A~ HmrnURAP.LE 'IB~ER: There is nothinr. conclusive. MR BARRY: h'hat is the best route? There is somethinp conclusive about it.

There is so!'lething conclusive in that they say it is technically feasible Twill go on with the same paragraph: "From an economic viewPoint the development of the project will utilize a renewable resource at a reasonahly stable cost ... ·• Now that little parap,raph there, two sentences, that little paragraph contains a weal th of information: We know that it is (1) technically feasible. He know that it is (2) econoMically feasible. I will explain more about the economics of it in a mor.1ent. 6936

June 7, 1974 Tape 1720 KM-5 With respect to the sub~arine cable versus the total tunnel, let me say that in order to meet the questions of the federal officials in Ottawa and in order to gain further information to better satisfy our o~m people as to the best method - I am not saying the cheapest method hut the hest method weighing oost against security - a seminar was arranged hy the Newfound]and Power Commission, in Montreal. It was held between May 13 and May Hi and discussed the alternatives, adopting submarine cables or the use of land cables in a tunnel.

They set up a review board consistinR of: Hr. !!ally Reid, the Chairman of the Newfoundland and Lahrador Power Commission., who was on this review hoard· nr. Dolnar,e, a professional engineer from Vancouver, British Co]umbia, a recognized expert in his fie] d, ~fr. Haswe.11, from London. England. another expert, Dr. L. ll. King, fro111 the f\epartment of Energy, "fines and Resources, Federal Government· Mr. L.R. T!orne, the professional engineer with B.C. Pydro, Mr. T/. J. Campbell, l'rofessor Ca.mp bell frm our F.ngineerinf': School here at ~femorial University· ~!r. '·I.

Warnes, from th~ Department of Enerr-y, Nines and Resources, Ottawa, who also sat in as the ferleral representative on our Energy Task Force here, several months af.O: and }tr. ~o=n Kipnis fron the Depart,nent of i1ines and Energy here in ~!ewfoundland, who, of course, has experience in tunnellinp operations. - Now these gentleman sat as a review board and they had rerresentations made to them by the top cable manufacturers, electrical cable manufacturers, in the worlcl. 1-/e had co.llected together in one group, Mr.

Chairman, in this little rooM in Montreal, a month ago approximately, the cream of the experts in this field. He had the cream, the top in their field, Mr. r.hairman. In addition there were representatives from the five cable manufacturers, Teshmont Consultants Limited: Patrick Harrison and r,onstruction Limjtrd, employees from the Engineering Department of the Newfoundland and Labrador Power Commission and representatives frorn the senior management of Shawinigan Engineering, !fontreal Engineering and Templeman Engineering. Basically all five cable manufacturers indicated that no problems were 6931

.. June 7, 1974 Tape 1720 (Afternoon) PK - 6 envisaged in the supply of the 400 kilovolt, direct current,submarine or land type cables. In the event that the suhmarine cable alternative were selected, all cable manufacturers indicated their willingness to accept responsibility for the cable installation. It was apparent from the presentation of the cable maufacturers that the manufacture and installation of 400 kilovolt direct current cables is well within today's technology. Let me skip over some of this, I do not want to take too much time of the Co11D11ittee, Mr. Chairman.

Now to date the final reports are not in. To date the commission has received reports from five members of the review board and it is anticipated that the reports from the two remaining-members should be received in the next few days. So it is somewhat premature to comment on the reports but I should mention that the Teshmont Study indicated a fairly substantial increase in cost for goin~ the tunnel alternative, $37 million I believe it was. The total cable route would be approximately $27 million or $28 million . but add on another $37 million for going the comnlete tunnel route. But the feeling , Mr.

Chairman, as the preliminary conclusions of this seminar that was held.is that the additional Recurity you p:et from the tunnel route may very well justify that additional cost. That cost,although it is a large amount of money,$37 million is a fairly small percentage of total cost of the total develonment which is,as you know, $11.2 billion. So it might very well be that we will go the tunnel route. Now there was some confusion expressed in an

article by the "Evening Tele~ram" although I have to compliment them on going through this Teshmont Study and taking out the technical details for the people of Newfoundland. I compliment them on their recognition of the fact that this is a significant undertaking,that the tunnel crossing is really crucial.Because we are breaking new ground here, Mr. Chairman, connecting up what up to now has been an isolated province to the national grid, to the national energy grid. But there was some confusion with respect to the cost of getting 6938

.t June 7, 1~74 , 'l'a"!)e no. 172(1 Page 7 a tran.sportation tunnel across the Strait of Belle Isle. They indicated a.much s~aller cost than is in fact the case for the cost. The cost of gettin~ a complete transportation tunnel. In addition to the $27 mil.lion for submarine crossing and an additional S37 million for the tunnel which will be some S64 million, there would be an additional $51 million required to enlarge the tunnel for transportation and to provide ramps at either end.

Yo.u also get into the cost of the rolling stock and equipment and so on that would nrobably run into an additional $75 Million - so you are in effect talking another $126 million. This is pointed out in the study but I agree that it is easy to be misled by the way the figures are set out in this particular parap;raph. I _;ust hrinr, that to the attention of the Committee hecause of the fact that the impression I got from readinp. the ''Telegram"

article was that it was for very little more cost we could have a transportation link he tween J.;1hrador and the Island. This I woiild be all for. but of course it ~ets down to the dollars and cents of the tunnel alternative. ~•r. Clw.irman, I ,i.m running out of time here. I have a counle oF very important points, if the honourable members opposite would permit. I do not know how much time I have hut t promise I will not waste the time of the Committee. AN HON. NE'IBF.R: Inaudible. ~!R. llARRY: This is the technical feasibility, 'Ir.

Chairman, that 1 have ,heen discussinf! for the last few minutes, and the hir,r,est technical pr0blem is not building the dam at the Gull Island site. I understand, I am not an engineer but I understand that that is a comparatively simple thing to undertake. At the present stage of technology, these companies, you know, are quite used to building hydro dams of this magnitude. The developments and the technology of direct current transmission I understand have advanced to the stage where there is not a very great risk in the carrying of this very large amount of current over long distances.

The submarine crossing is recop,nized as possihly the most technically difficult area but,Mr. Chairman, as I have already pointed 6939

Jun e 7, 1974 Tape no . 17 20 Pai e 8 out we have the t op experts in the world. !'Ye have had their advice . We have not all the fin al reports in but all the informa .tion we have cv date indicates that this ls an acceptahle risk .

Any ris k that is ther e is an acceptahle one, of that the.re is very lit t le:> douh t and that it is techni cally feasible to bring the power ac.ross from Labrado r to the Islan d of r-}ewfoundland . !fow, Mr. r.ha innan . if, I could ~o into t he possihly even more complicated nsrect o~ this t lian the tecl1r.h:al side :Jnd that is the econo~ic fPnsihilicy , the economi c feasibility of brin gi np the pnwec from Labrador to the Ts land of ilewfo undla nrl . The re is an awful 11,t of money, Hr . Chai r man , at st'a!,e her e .

It is roinA t o cost a l ot of mo'le \' . . ..... ~ let 11\C nive you a couple of fig ures Rs to what our al t'ernntives a re r oin1• to cost, i f T can dif. these ou t herP. . '~ . DOODY: l can r,et hi111 o'l e. T do not have it here now. MR. P.ARRY: Gefo,-e I get into t he i nvolve..ll'ent that we are ,-oinf co r equi r e of the fede r al r.ov ernment and the r eason for feueral assi stance and why it is so imoort:ant, Hr . Chairman, lE>t me talk a little about what our alter nat i ves are . As our ,::overnmen t sees it. we have no chn.lce , Hr . Chai man, no choice _ hut t o pus h for 6940

June 7, 1974 Tape no. 1721 Page 1 the bringing of power from the Labrador site to the Island of New­ foundland, keeping in mind that this will also mean the development of a power resource for Labrador itself,because the demand in the Goose Bay, Happy Valley Area and on the Coast of Labrador is not going to justify, cannot possibly justify the amount of demand that is there for the development of Gull Island by itself. We have to have additional customers.

With the bringing of power to the Island then you have your plant built, then you are justified in bringing the transmission line to the Coast of Labrador or to the Goose Bay, Happy Valley Area which is in at the end of Lake Melville. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. BARRY: It is a lot more than the sixty-five miles which is the transmission line from the Lower Churchill. If you say, "Do that and have the people pay the economic cost of so doing," power rates will be even higher than they are with dependency on the thermal generators. I am telling the honourable gentleman just what the figures show.

Now there are lies, damn lies and statistics I know, and we have to question all figures that are poked at us but, as the experts tell me, it is not economically feasible to develop Gull Island or to bring the power from the Upper Churchill with the present load growth and the present demands on the Coast of Labrador and the Goose Bay, Happy Valley Area. Let us look at some of the figures that are staring us in the face, Mr.

Chairman: By 1979, which is the earliest date that we could have Gull Island on stream, our fuel bill on the Island of Newfoundland and along.the Coast of Labrador and Goose Bay, Happy Valley, and I keep mentioning Goose Bay, Happy Valley because that is the largest centre right now. The largest demand is right there and right now supplied by I diesel generators, by 1979 our fuel bill will be $38 million annually. That is assuming, Mr. Chairman, that the price of oil drops back to ten dollars a barrel. It is in excess of that right now. If there be 6941

June 7, 1974 Tape no. 1721 Page 2 ten dollar oil we shall be paying $38 million a year annually for fuel for the Holyrood thermal plant and for our REA system. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. BARRY: Right, a very large segment of it will be for the Holyrood plant, no question about that. Between 1974 and 1987 the total cost of burning fuel to meet our projected demands, if we have to de~end on oil fire generators, the total cost will be $1.1 billion. That is between 1974 and 1987, thirteen years. The honourable member knows just what enormous costs are involved in the suoplying of energy.

One point one billion dollars, approximately the cost of the Gull Island development, we will have to spend in paying for fossil fuel for petroleum products to fire our diesel generators, if'we have to rely on diesel generators in our province. Now these are staggering figures. What are our alternatives? We have "Develop our hydro resources." We have "Rely solely on the fossil fuel alternative" or the third alternative, Hr. Chairman; is nuclear, but we cannot bring a nuclear plant in here immediately because our system is so small.

So if we decide on the nuclear alternative, we have to say we are going to continue on with oil fire generators for so many years, I think it is around 1982, 1983. Then the system will be large enough to put on a nunclear plant. Let me give you some of the comparative costs. In this $1.1 billion that is spoken about as being the cost of developing Gull Island we have included a certain amount for interest during construction and for escalation. If we remove those figures, interest during construction and escalation, the absolute cost is $785 million. That is the development of the site and the transmission line.

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Transmission line to where? MR. BARRY: Transmission line to the Island and the transmission line to the Coast of Labrador. That is total, $785 million to tie into the Upper Churchill. That is taking out interest during construction and escalation. Now adding on the others we get the $1.1 billion. Just let me use this figure because I want to use it for comparative purposes. 6942

June 7, 1974 Tape no. 1721 Page 3 Let us Collll)are the alternative of a coal fired plant followed by a nuclear installation, which our study of the alternatives has shown will be the most economic method of proceeding. The capital cost of constructing these all fired plants needed until the system gets big enough for a nuclear one and then putting in a nuclear plant would be $704 million. Compare $785 million - $704 million. If we go the total fossil fuel route, just building thermal plants, a lower capital cost. Even that is $518 million.

Then tack on your fuel bill every year, you will have to pay for your petroleum in excess which, as I just pointed out, over thirteen years alone would be $1.1 billion. Now these are inescapable figures that we have to deal with. What we are trying to do is to pic,k the best alternative for supplying the energy needs of Newfoundlanders for generations to come. We are forced into a position where we cannot any longer just plan two years ahead, three years ahead, four years ahead, we have to look down the road.

Every­ thing that we look at shows that bringing electricity from Labrador to the Island of Newfoundland is the only answer for our problems, not just for the Island of Newfoundland but for Labrador as well, because we are going to get our hydro developments in Labrador and then we are going to have our energy in Labrador for the development of Labrador. We are going to have the Island of Newfoundland hooked into a national grid and we have freedom, we have flexibility, we have room for growth. The alternative is total stagnation, Mr. Chairman, Now, how can we do that?

Well $1.l billion is a lot of money even for our Finance Minister here who has shown a great ability to borrow. There are a few dollars involved there. It has become apparent that federal assistance is required. It is almost necessary. It is hard to say it is essential, it is not necessary. The Minister of Finance says it is essential. Okay! We are strapped to try and put together those dollars. Well, if we are forced to try and do it, we shall have to try and do it. If we have to we shall do it. 6943

June 7, _1974 Tape no. 1721 Page 4 Mr. Chairman, what are we talking about here? What are we asking from the government of our nation, from the Federal Government? We are not asking for a handout. We are not askin~ for a grant. We are not asking for a donation. We are not asking for dole. We are asking for financing. We are asking for a loan and proper repayment terms. We are not RFC or AVCO or somebody; we might get a loan but we would not be able to get the advantageous conditions that the Federal Government is in a position to give us. It is not a question of our setting a precedent either, Mr. Chairman.

We are asking for no more than has already been given to other provinces, specifically Manitoba. Manitoba has been given quite a large amount. I think it is in the hundreds of millions of dollars, ~ forget the exact amount - two hundred and some odd million dollars. It was lent to them on a repayment basis where they paid it back as the line was used. It was a loan for the construction of the transmission line from the Nelson River to the Kettle Rapids on the Nelson Ri1er down to the border of the United States, in other words to permit the export of power to the United States.

How much more of a reason do you want than to ensure the continued e~onomic viability of a province of Canada? If they will enter into such financing terms to permit the export of power to the United States, why will they not do it to ensure the continued economic viability of Newfoundland? How is it advantageous for us to have the Federal Government involved in the financing? Well,in the initial years of a transmission line being put in from Gull Island to the Island of Negfoundland, in the initial years the unit cost of power will be higher because the demand will not have been built up.

So the idea is todeferour financing charges so that we are not repaying all our interest and principal in the early years - just get a deferment. We are not asking them to give us anything, a grant or anything. We are asking them to put off when they will require us to 6944

June 7, 1974 Tape no. 1721 Page 5 start repayment of the loan. The Federal Government have done that for Manitoba. We are asking them to do the same thing for Newfoundland. We are asking them for a loan of some $400 million approximately, a loan to finance the construction of a transmission line from Labrador to the Island of Newfoundland. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. BARRY: for that matter. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. BARRY: Inaudible. No, they could build it and own it and lease it to us Inaudible. We would prefer not to, but we are not hung up on it. Believe it or not, Mr.

Chairman, $400 million is a large number of dollars even for the Federal Government. We realize this and we are not saying they are unreasonable or anything in doing it. They have a few questions to ask as well. They would like further information, further information by the way which will be obtained to a great extent from the work that is being carried out this summer. This $14 million that has been allocated for preliminary work, preliminary construction work this summer, this will answer a lot of our questions with almost total certainty, but in the meantime we went up there and we made presentations.

The Premier went in and he talked to Mr. Trudeau. Myself, Mr. Doody, Mr. Crosbie met with Mr. Jamieson and with Mr. MacDonald, the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources, on several occasions and we have presented briefs to them, we have presented facts and figures to them. Really the main problem they had, the main questions they have is; "How valid are the load growth predictions that are made in this book, in this Teshmont Zinder report?" They are saying; "Can we rely on those figures?

Can we rely on Newfoundlanders requiring this much electricity and buying this much electricity to ensure that this loan is repayed over the number of years that it is predicted it will be repayed over?" One thing that is apparent, Mr. Chairman, and one thing that I want tostress right now, because there is an awful lot of confusion about this point, is that we do not need, it is not essential to have 6945

June 7, 1974 Tape no. 1721 Page 6 an aluminum smelter or any high user of energy. It is not essential t~at we have those. It may be economically important, it may be that we can bring down the cost to the consumer particularly in the early years by increasing our load growth by having a large user on the end of the line but, Mr. Chairman, it is not essential because the figures here show that just with the normal anticipated increase in load growth for the Province we will use all the energy generated by the.Gull Island development within the years - say 1988-1990, around this period. AN HON.

MEMBER: What is that? Twelve per cent? MR . BARRY: No, less than twelve ner cent. Let me go into that a little bit. We presented to the Federal Government a number of different orojected increases in load growth. We had a fast load growth. We gave them figures for that as contained in here, in the Teshmont Zinder report, This assumed that there would be certain large uses of energy like aluninum smelters and so on attracted to the Island. We gave them a medium load growth and we gave them a slow load growth.

When they came up and still had the questions about the ability of the Province to use this energy, they gave us what they thought might be reasonable. We even used their figures. We said that we called that a minimum load growth. In every case, Mr. Chairman, you saw the project being economically viable - in every case, even the minimum load growth figure. Mr, Chairman, the minimum load growth figure is a figure, below which, if you assume that there is going to be development below that then you are assuming that there is no future for the Province of Newfoundland.

If the Federal Government in Ottawa be not prepared to accept our figures as to minimum load growth then they have said that there is no hope for Newfoundland, there is no future for Newfoundland, because that is the minimum load growth which will bring our province anywhere near the standard of living in other parts of Canada. 6946

June 7, 1974 Tape no. 1721 Page 7 We say the Federal Government is supposed to be committed to regional development, to the alleviation of economic disparities between regions. What greater way to do it than to support this proposal of our government? Mr. Chairman, this single act of financing the transmission line from Gull Island to the Island of Newfowidland would do more to alleviate regional disparity in the years to come than any DREE or ARDA or FRED or any ~ther programme that we have seen yet or are likely to see from the Federal Government, whatever government or party is in power in Ottawa.

This is not a political thing. This is so important to our continued economic viability, Mr. Chairman, that I cannot stress it enough. I 1ust have a couple of other points to make. If the honourable members of the committee would bear with me, I would like to give information as to what has taken place since we submitted our brief to the Federal Government. It was agreed that there would be a Federal/ Provincial Task Force created and they would study certain specific items. They broke it down into sub-groups.

One group to study the hydro site itself and check out the figures and the consultants report on the site. On that we have Mr. Ted Humphries, who is a very knowledgeable federal energy official and Mr. Reid, Chairman of the Power Commission, and a Mr. Eckenfelder from Montreal Engineering Company. We have with respect to this another sub-group dealing with the transmission line. Here we have Mr. Warnes, an Energy, Mines, Resources official whom I mentioned previously, and for the Province we have Mr. H. Young, from the Power Commission; Mr. A. Bulter, from Shawinigan Engineering, and Mr. J.

Rolland from Teshmont Consultants. Another sub-group deals with load growth. As I said this is the most important as far as the Federal Government is concerned and the area where they want the most answers. Here we have D. J. MacDonald, representing the Federal Government, 6947

• ' June 7, 1974 Tape no. 1722 IB - 1 who is the district representative for DREE. I forget his official I title. AN HON. MEMBER: Acting regional director. MR. BARRY: Acting regional director for DREE. We will have representatives from Energy, Mines and Resources; Finance and Industry, Trade and Connnerce. For Newfoundland we have Mr. D. G. Collet from the Power Connnission, Mr. Dave Vardy from the Executive Council, Gordon Goundrey from the Executive Council Office and a representative ofZinder and Associates who narticipated in the study.

Subgrouu 4: With respect to the alternatives, the economics are going, nuclear are going, coal fired or fossil fuel fired. We have, for the federal government, Mr. A •• R. Scott from Energy, Mines and Resources. We will have somebody from Finance and DREE on that as well. From Newfoundland I got Mr. Leo Cole from the Power Connnission, Mr. Harrison from Teshmont and Mr. King from Shawinigan Engineering. \ The final subgroup, financial and economic analysis: We have Mr. Ryder, Finance, and a representative of Energy, Mines and Resources and DREE. For Newfoundland we have Mr. R. Martin, Mr. D. Vardy and Mr.

Cyril Abery and Hr. Wilf Garland. Now these subgroups have met. From most of these we are expecting and anticipating reports within the next few weeks. The only one that we are concerned with is that we are concerned with the fact that the federal government may be engaging in a more exhaustive and intensive survey than is warranted by the facts of the load growth and the financing implications of this project.

I say that because for a time it looked as if they were about to engage in a survey 'of the entire capital . needs in Canada for energy developments and relating our Gull Island project to the entire Canadian picture, which of course would mean that we feel to be a much greater amount of time being spent and a delay in this project if that became necessary. Now, our last impressions are that they have cut down their time period and that we should some time early in July have an answer from that subgroup as well. They will be reporting to the Federal 6948

June 7, 1974 Tape 1722 IB-2 Government and to the Newfoundland Government as to their conclusions, the results of their study of the information in this report.

We are ho·ping - there is nothing to indicate otherwise - that these groups will come in with the same conclusion that we have, namely, that it has to be all systems go, that there is nothing here to take away from the fact that this proiect is technically viable, is economically viable and it means the life or death of Newfoundlan -:l, it means economic stagnation for Newfoundland or it means continued growth to take us up to the level of the other provinces. AN HONOURABLE }'E'-IBER: Inaudible. '1R.

BARRY: No, I would not say "Develop or Peris~1," I Poii1d not sav 11 DcveJop a t a nv cost." What I am•saying here is that we can have dev£lopment at minimum cost, we ,nn have development at reasonable cost. We have submitted figures showing, ~r. Chairman, that - MR. CROSBIE: Develop or take handouts. MR. BARRY: Fight! J)evelop or take handouts} We have shm-'II, Mr. Chairman, that if power from Gull Island should come to the island portion of the province, we can expect an average cost of power of probably slightly less than fifteen mils.

For an industry with a high load factor, it would probably cost them something in the area of twelve mils. Going the nuclear route or going the fossil fuel route (Two minutes? Okay!) one is talking about twenty-two mil power and twenty-four mil power. Now that is a significant difference, Mr. Chairman, in the cost of power. We are talking the cost of power in about five to ten years time. We are talking about the cost of power in Europe right now, up around twenty-five, twenty-six or twenty-seven mils today.

When we combine that low cost power, stable cost powerr,with our strategic advantage on the trade routes of the world and with our deep water ports, we can see that these three combined would mean great things for the future of Newfoundland. Without trying to drown them and minutiae them, I have just a few figures as to why the figures that we are projecting for our load growti , : l,'e are assuming I think it is seven or eight 6949

June 7, 1974 Tape 1722 IB-3 per cent as being the lowest poss-ible. We are saying that it is reasonable to accept eipht per cent. The national average is seven per cent. We have averaged in excess of twelve per cent over the last ten years or so. We have given some reasons as to why it is logical to expect that we will continue to have that increase in growth rate. We have su1mlied figures to the federal government showing that

whereas, for example, orly three per cent of the people nationaJly, fam'ilies nat:!onally do not have s;iy rPfrigcrators; in Newfoundland it-is :more like eleven per cent. We have r,one through for different appliances and differc>nt ways that the normal, average person uses energy. We have shor-m th;it we are !'luch less developed than thP rest of Canada. Jt is onlv common sense to exoect that our people will increase thPir demands over the next few years. ~r.

Chairman, there is much more I could sav on this because I believe so deeply and so assuredlv that this project if completed wi.11 mean tremendous things for our nrovince, beceuse I believe that if this pro _iect do not go ahead, then, ~r. Chairm;m, we may as well face that we will stagnate. We will stagnate) For this reason, Mr. Chairman, for the reasons given already, I want to, ~elieve it or not, support the resolution that is before this honourable House. Thank youJ MR. CHAIRf.!AN (MR. STAGG): The honourable the minis t er, the Leader of the Opposition. "IF. ROBF:RTS: ~inister? No, Sir, thank you!

I have been a minister. I do not expect to he the minister of anything in particular again. AN HONOURABLE MEMREF: ln:tudihle. ~. ROBERTS: Yes, which is more than I can say for the gentleman from Green Bay. Not only that, I have prospects,which is more too than I can say for the gentleman from Green Bay. Now, Sir, let me first of all compliment the Premier and the Minister of Finance aud the Minister of Industrial J'Jevelopment for their attention throughout the debate. I mean that quite genuinely . I find that most of the members on the other side have distinquished 6950

June 7, 1974 Tape 1722 IB-4 themselves by their absen~e from the debate. The Premier has been quite faithful in his attendance. The Minister of Finance has been equally faithful and the ~inister of Energy has been equally / faithful as has the junior member for Harbour Main, the Minister of Incustrial DevPlopment. I find it passing strange that the minister is the junior member. I guess the vagaries of the electorate will never be understood. Why he should be the junior member and his colleague the senior member utterly ,istonishes not only me, Sir, but anybody who loo~s at the situatjon. Let me first of all, Mr.

Chairman, state quite clearly in case there is any doubt - I do not think there is - that my colleagues and I support this resol~tion and we shall support the bill. I do not think that is a surprisinR statement. The bill before the committee really represents the implementation of what is an agreed sale between the government on one hand as purchasers and BRINCO, I yuess, on the other hand as the vendors. It was not exactly,in many ways, a happy sale.

I do not think BRINCO particularly wanted to sell but RRINCO obviously came to the conclusion upon examining all the facts, includinR the notice paper of the House of Assembly, that their option really was to sell or to be expropriated. As Dr. Johnson, I think it was, said, "The knowledge that a man is to be hanged in a fortnight has the power to concentrate his mind wonderfully." BRINCO were ,i;iven the choice between being exterminated by legislation or selling a large part of their assets and they choose the later. So be itl I do not quarrel with what BRINCO did nor do I quarrel with what the government did.

I think it should be noted that this bill and its companion hill, number 105, which really is the bill to achieve essentially the same end as this bill number 82., that this bill represents the closing of an era in the history of Newfoundland and Labrador. I think the time has come to close that door. I do not for a minute align myself with those few in number who oppose that concept. I think it is high time that we have control of all our power and resources in the province. The Liberal Administration, 6951

June 7, 1974 Tape 1722 IB-5 which is so JllUCh maligned, took control of ali' power resources on the island in the mid-sixties. Indeed it was laid down as policy in about 1965 or 19~6 that all future power generation on the Tsland of Newfoundland would be by the ouhlic agency, by the Newfoundland and Labrador Power Commission.as it was then and is still known as. As part and parcel of that tr.r government, I guess acted as midwife at the amalgamation of aited towns and the Newfoundland Light and Power r.ompany into the present Newfound 1 and Li!!:h t and Power Company.

So, the result is that todav we have on the jsland as distributors of power only the Power Commission or the REA,which is a bedmate or bedfellow with the Power rommission,or' the Rowaters Power Companv on the West Coast or the Newfoundland tight an<" Power Company in Eastern Newfoundland. The time has come nm~ obviously to extend that concept to all of the province. ><y collea11:ues and I, the T,iberal Party, certainly welcome ttat stand. It is only carrying into effect the policy which was laid down initially by Mr. Smallwood and his administration.

Labrador was specifically exempted in respect of the lipper Churchill development,and for good reason. Nobody said then and nobody can say now with any truth that the Upper Churchill Development could have gone ahead,when it did, on any other terms than it did go ahead. It is e.asy to have the wisdom of hindsi11:ht. I could be many times a millionaire today, Mr. Chairman, if only I had gone out and bought say all the land in downtown St. John's ten years ago,when it was sellin!!: for prices half what it is selling for today.

I think it is worth recording that for the lipper Churchill development at the time I had no ministerial responsibility but _ I had a certain awareness as did most p·eoplP as t(l what was happening. The Upper Churchill development was hailed by all and sundry,including the present Minister of Finance,as being the best deal that we could make. Indeed the present Minister of Finance , the present Minister of Justice and the present Minister of Municipal Affairs were in the cabinet at tbe time the most recent legislation was brought before the 6952

June 7, 1974 Tape 1722 IB-6 House. No, maybe not the most recent but certainly the relevant legislation to the Upper Churchill development, the legislation necessary to tack it all together.which was brought before the -House. Whether or not, looking back, it was regarded as a mistake is not something that anyhody can say with certainty.

It is easy to say now what should have been done ten or fifteen or twenty years ago, .iust as it is easy to say now what shoulrl have been done twenty years ago with respect to Bell Island or twenty years ago with respect to the development of Downtown Toronto or with respect to anything else. J cannot think of an intellectually more dishonest argument than sayin11: that something was a mistake twenty years ago or ten years ago,when the men who took that posi<ion acted on the best available information and nobody raised a voice in question of it - nobody. Hu i. nobody!

The Upper rhurchill deal was made in 1964, in 1965. I believed then and J believe now that it was the best rleal which could have heen made at the time. From the perspective of history it may not have been a good deal. I think an argument could he made either way on that particular matter. Everybody at the time felt it was the hest deal that could he made and everybody hailed it. Indeed, at the time, Sir, it was felt that f-l"r.

Smallwood,whn gets most of the credit for it, deservedly so, pulled off a master stroke because the feeling a year or so before the Churchi 11 deal was macle was that there would be no Churchill deal at all. Indeed, there was a time, Mr. Chairman, when th0. only man in this world or this province who believer! the t'pper rhurchill could he i:leveloped was .Jo~ Smalh!ood. Let that stand to the man's crei:lit. l-fr. Donald McPartland, ~'r. Donald r.ordon, '.Mr. Henry norden, Mr.

Robert Winters - all p.reat names, all men who made a notable contrihution to the development of Churchill and of BRINCO­ these men, I think, had been forced to the conclusion that the only way that could he developed was to make a deal with Quebec. I was in Quebec City in 1964. I was a student,but I was there at a f~deral provincial conference as an observer. 6953

June 7, 1974 Tape 1722 JB-7 That was the time when ~fr. Renee Levesque,who was then the Minister o·f Resources in the administration of Mr. LeSa!!'e, Quebec rity, laid down his famous five conditions. The conditions have all been laid down puhlicly, j t is no secret. 1, sa1.d then that Quebec 'IJould not aJlow that deal to go Fthead unless it ·,,,.e "" ·iuebei.: 's ~enns. "Well,·· you may say, "why Quebec'?

Why was Quebec so important?" Well, for two reasons: First of all, nobody at that time felt that thP. technology was availahle to move the power from Fpper Churchill to the r.oast .of Labrador, across the Straits, down to this island. Secondly ancl much more importantly than that. nobodv,hut nobody anywhere, coulcl sre any posf':ihle customer for the powrr, the 4,eoo megawatts from the l'poer Churchill, no other possible customer except Quebec Hydro. Those who damn the deal and those who are so wise now would do well to dea] ~rith that fact. The only choice in 1964 and 1965, "r.

Chainnan, was wh!"'ther the deal went ahead on the terms laid down or not go ahead at all. Those who say that the deal was a had one have to take their stand with those who say it should not have been developed at all. at least not at that time: possible today, possihlv another time. It could not have been developed tmless the power had been sold to Quehee,and Quebec damn well knew it. I was privy to a mnr.her of conversations in which Mr. Lesage, the Premier of Quebec,and ~r. Smallwood, then the Premier of Newfoundland, and others were present.

Quebec knew full well,and the present ~inister of ~un:1.cipal Affairs was in the cabinet and I was not hut he can tell that that was the infomation which was given the cabinet by all concerned, that Quebec knew they held not only the upper hand but the only hand in the poker game. One of Joe Smallwood's most inspired moves I suppose was to go over to London and to go to a street called ''Queen Ann's Gate" and see a firm called"Preece, Cardew and Ryder," one of the great fims of the world in this field, electrical distrihution and development field, and ask them to come to Newfoundland to do a 6954

June 7, 1974 Tape 1722 IB-8 report. They did a report. There will be a copy down in the files still. I think there were only n.1enty copies printed at the time. There is at least one in the cabinet files, there may be others - a report which said it was technicallv and economically feasible to bring that power from l'pper Churchi 11 down through Labrador, across the Straits of Belle Isle, (This was ten years ago.) down the West Coast of Newfoundland and across the Cabot Strait an~ on into the New England market. Now I do not know whether that was so, The report was there and it stands on its own merits.

I no not know whether the concept was a bluff or not but if it were a bluff it succeeded because that was the report, and it was tnat decision by the Government of Newfoundland to get that report that brought Quebec at least partially to their senses. That is all history. Those who criticize the deal now, let them deal with the facts. I have outlined some of the facts,and let them be men enough to admit it.

Either the llpper Churchill went ahead on the terms it did go ahead on or it would not have gone ahead at that time and maybe not even today because, as I will deal with it later, we will talk about l ,f;OO or 1,700 megawatts of power from the Lower Churchill. Nobody has yet come to grins with where we could use 4,800 me~awatts in the production of the Upper Cl-.urchill. Where could we sell that power if not to Quebec Hydro. Quebec Hydro knew that. Where could we sell it even today? We use on this island today, ~r. Chaim.an, 900 megawatts of power in a year.

So, 900 megawatts times the number of ,hours in a year comes to so. many •kilowatt hours. We are using a capacity of 900 meiawatts of power,in round figures. It is somewhere in this Teshmont, Zinder document, It is not very well indexed but I had it marked and it is somewhere in here, that our annual consumption at present is of the order of 900 megawatts. We are talking of the Upper Churchill, 4,800 megawatts, five and a half times as much. I j~st want to put that on the record. I do not see any point in debating what went on in the past in that sense. We could learn from it. We should learn from it. 6955

June 7, 1974 Tape l722 IB-9 I do get a !ittle annoyed at the intellectual dishonesty of those who would pr eten d now that tney were so wise about what went on ten years ago when they were not ·heard from at the time and neither was anybod y else. I do not thin~ there was a voice raised in all of this province from Cape Chidley to Calle Race or fro.m Cave Fay to Cape Spear against the llpper Churchill development in concept . I do not think there wrs a single voi~e raised.

I do not recall if there were one. l have not checked all the cuttings and alJ the records and documents but that agreement was universally hailed. Loo~ing back now, was it a good thing? I do not know. It can be arF-1,1ed that it was and it can certainly be argued that it was not. Let mP. say <>ne other thi.n17 about the l!pper Churchill development.because the government make a great noise ahout how many millions we alleited}v used in Newfoundland each year: We are losing 695 6

June 7, 1974 Tape 1723 (Afternoon) PK - 1 more millions too because we did not buy the Bank of Montreal one hundred years ago or twenty years ago or five years ago. Think what we could have made on that, if we had only brought the Bank of Montreal. when its stock had gone from three or four clollars a share to forty or fifty dollars a share. Or think what we could have made per year, think what we are losing each yFar, Mr. Chairman, in Newfoundland,because we did not . ',et us see: "ha c now? The average house. in town? $35,000? $35,000? $40,000? What were they ten years ago? $25,000 for the same house? $40,000?

AN HON. MEMBER: Of that order. MR. ROBF.RTS: Of that order. Now that is $20,000 a house . Tf only we had brought all the houi,;es in St. John's ten vears ago, ,:.,e would have doubled our money

whereas .. s a resu 1 t of not havinr, rlnne it. we have lost Lord knows how many hundred millions of dollars. Well that argument is absurd but it is equally as absurd for the ministery to get up and say that we are losing monev hecause of the Upper Churchill development. It is all very well to say that they would make a different deal now,and so they should. So they should. The Upper Churchill and the Lower Churchill are as different as black and white or oil and water or night and day. The Upner Churchill first of all is three times as large.

As Your Honour knows full well and as even the ministers opposite have had to concede,the development of power nrojects depends more than any other single factor on a customer , a customer who will buy that power and who will guarantee the purchase of that power at an agreed price,because that is what makes the financing possible. Even the Minister of Finance in his ill-humoured way had to concede that yesterday. That is one difference. Secondly, ten years have past. Ten years ago energy, the energy market was a different one than today. More importantly,ten years ago, Mr.

Chairman, we were in a stage,an energy cr\sis, electricity crisis. We had not changed significantly over twenty or thirty or fifty years. I do not have all of the prices here before me but over an historical period of some length, say twenty-five years, prices of hydro electricity, the economics of hydro power have not changed significantly. Bay D'Espoir 6957

June 7, 11H4 Tape 1723 (Afternoon) PK - 2 power done in 1965 on a bond issue. I can remember the s~ock that went through the then cabinet when Mr. George Hobbs informed the r,f.nistrv_. T remember a number of them mentioned to me how taken aback they were. Y011 know what they had to pay for the money. Five -and--a-quarter per cent, and they thought that was usury. Mr. Hobbs said he had been down to New York and I think it was Kuhn, Loeb,a verv, very large New York bond firm.; and the shoc1< w1.ch which t11ey greeced the new,; that the best money they could get was five and a quarter per cent.

Well the Minister of Finance would agree that five -and a--quarter per cent money will never come again in our lifetime. AN HON. MEMBER: A change of government might bring - MR. ROBERTS: A change of government but Bob Stanf~l<l ? Sure. ~ot even Bob Sta~field's o~m party agrees with this economic policy. MR. w. N. ROWE: The minister certainly does not. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudihle. t.lR. ROBERTS: No. I agree, it is certainly not likely to come, neither the lower cnst of money nor Bob Stanfield as Prime Minister.

Any man who could draw 150 people in Gander, 150 of whom not more than twentv- five were sent there hy the Liberal Party to count the er.owe' Anyway that is somewhat irrelevant, to talk of Bob Stanfield and to talk of develooment in the same breath. A~ HON. MFMBEP: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: It will take more Liberals to count 250 than it would to count 150. AN HON. HEMBER: "!R. llOBERTS: They cmdd us e their fingers. That is ouite right. That is quite right. They will have to use their fingers and their toes and everything else to count the votes on July 8. Mr. Rupert - well that is. AN HON.

MEMBER: There are two P. C. s running in there and George Raker and MR. ROBERTS: It is okay. George Baker is a P.C. ·in the same way the honourable gentlemen opposite are Liberals. Let me start. The honourable, I am not allowed to comment. The honourable ~entleman for Placentia East, 6958

.Jwte 7, 1974 Tape 1723 (Afternoon) PK - 3 whose coat has as many colours as did Joseph's coat in the Bible, the honourable gentleman for Placentia West, the Hon; Minister of Finance, the honourable Member for St. Barbe South, but we have down in the Liberal Headquatters, Your Honour, down in the Liberal Headquarters -the honourable gentleman for 5t. Mary's is one of the few pristine Tories in this province. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. ~- ROBERTS: He came just in time, back from Cambridge again - AN !!ON. MEMBER: No back from the - MR.

ROBERTS: Back from the - well Steve Neary has come back too, so we are twice blessed. The quality of mercy is not strained, we are twice blessed. But the number of gentlemen opposite, we have a list and I think we have them all ohotostated down at Liberal Headquarters. It is a most amusing rogues gallery of gentlemen - MR. W. N, ROWE: The gallery of opoortunists. HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: We do not know who is the pain in the Minister of Fi.nance' s neck whether it is in front of him or behind him or around him. But anyway, Mr.

Chairman, anyway, Sir, the price of power had increased dramatically in the last ten years. The price of money has increased. The price of money is I suppose larger than any other single fact in determining the price of power. What was considered a reasonable price of power ten years ago or eight years ago or nine years ago would today be laughed at. Cheap power today is what? Ten or twelve mils. The Minister of Energy just said a heavy industrial user, ninety-five per cent loan factor, it is better than aluminum. An aluminum plant might be ninety I understand.

But somebody, you know, a large user of steady blocks of power, a twenty-four hour a day power, the best kind to sell,might get twelve mils, a preferred rate, a very good rate to induce them to come in; twelve mils. If only ERCO had been charged three and a-half mils the province would be coining money today on the ERCO deal, Two and a-half they are losing. 6959

June 7, 1974 Tape 1723 (Afternoon) PK - 4 The fact _remains, Sir, that the economics of power have changed dramatically. Those who want to make so light of the Upper Churchill deal would do well to remember that, would do well to be man enough and men enough to admit the facts as they exist. Power had to go west. Indeed until the Soviet Union found a way and they made the breakthrough in high voltage, direct current transmission,there was no way the power could go anywhere, when they finally came it had to go west.

So I do not particularly, I do not align myself for a moment with those who say we should make the deal again. I think I take the opposite position today, on today's facts and today's figures. Mr. Chairman, I think those who talk so glibly ot tne alleged bad d eal on the Ur,per Churchill shouid be ashamed of themselves. They are 0 distorting history. They are being intellectually dishonest. They are just not presenting all of the facts. There are one or two things were they are on stronger ground and I again agree with them.

I got quite angry three or four years ago, I got involved in an exchange,between Sir William Bennett of Iron Ore Company on the one hand and various officials of BRINCO on the other hand,over the s·ale of that 300 kilowatt or megawatt block of power. The CFLco trust deed I believe has a clause in it that they will not sell power to anybody less than they sell it to Quebec hydro at point "A".

The result of that was that they maintained and the problem was not resolved when we left office, I do not know if it has been by now, I assume it has , they maintain that the pc-wer that was being recalled, which was .being used to fuel and oower the expansion at Labrador West, Labrador City, the Iron Ore Company,that nower had to be sold to IOC in Labrador for the same price that it was sold to Quebec ~ydro. There was a long argument. It was not settled. The nosition the government took then was that it should be sold at a preferential.,rate, a lower rate.

All we kept hearin11: in return was the trust deed prevented it . I say that tf it were not resolved when I left office, I assume • it has been resolved now. I do not know what the lawyer - has it been resolved? Okay/ 6960

June 7, 1974 Tape 1723 (Afternoon) PK - 5 Well then,the Minister of Finance shakes his head, it 1s still a live issue. But I mean the fact remains that 1f that trust deed were held to rule in the matter,then I think we should have every reason to he angry. 1 do not think RRINCO for a minute deliberately tried to produce that result. I would think it was carelessness and neglect and if it were carelessness and neglect,all those involved have to take their share of the blame. Mr.

Chairman, the closing of an era, the departure of BRINCO from this province as a hydro companv,they are not leaving the nrovince as a mining company or as an oil and gas company, they are still retaining their rights there and whatever else they choose to get into but it is the closing of an era,and I think that this Committee will be less than generous if we do not pay a tribute l'O BRINCO for what they did accomplish. I will grant. as rlid the Minister of Energy, that RRINCO are motivated hy profit; aH long as we are to have the free enterprise system that is the way it will work.

I am not so sure the free enterprise system is the answer to every prayer but it seems to work bette~ for all its faults, than does any other system in the world. The honourable gentlemen opposite are constantly on their feet mouthing pius platitudes about not being socialist and about welcoming the free enterprise system. Well and good! That the free enteri,rise system is motivated by the profit motive,that is what makes it tick. BRINCO went into Labrador,in the main,to make money • . A.N HON. MEMBER: Pioneers. MR. ROBERTS: Pioneers.

But they went in there to make money just as everybody else under that system goes into business to make a dollar or as many dollars as they can. But let it be recorded as well that BRINCO took great risks; no risk now. They took great risks. They went into what was then an unknown wilde ·mess, largely unexplored. There have been no real explorations other than a few men walking across Labradot . one or twu or them, like Dr. Huhble,died in an effort to find the Upper Churchill,or the Grand Falls they were then called. BRINCO raised substantial SUJIIS of money.

I for one am quite willing to pay tribute to what those men did. They tamed the wilderness and all of them have every reason to be proud of 6961

June 7, 1974 Taoe 1723 PK-6 it, right from Mr. De Rothschild, the memhers of his firm who were active in the early years, men like Don McPharland, who was ki.lled before the project crune on stream but whom I suppose more than any other single man in the BRINCO organization made it work: Henry Borden· Donald Gordon, who has since died, and Bob '·!inters who again has died. Newfound] and was served well by these men, ~ir. Oh, they were lookin!? for a dollar and they doubtlessly nade a dollar, but so what? They could have made their money elsewhere with more ease.

They did not have to go to the middle of Labrador when no­ body thought it could be done. Give them credit, Sir, give them their due. Today we are endinp: their connection with the hy,dro resources, anci 1 think 1.t is the right thing. Indeeci I have not heard them ob1ect. They may not be very happy but I do not think they have taken any public oh1ection nor any privately, to my knowledp.:e. Record their contrihutions. That includes now the men in charge. ~r. Mulholland, Sir Val Duncan and many others. They made their contri­ butions.

They built in Churchill Falls, in the heart of Labrador, one of the i:i:reat industrial orojects of our time. It seems easy. It seems so easy, but that is the measure of their success. They brought it in on schedule~ ahead of schedule. They b'!'"nnaht it in within construction cost estimates. They financed it without government guarantees or without public assistance other than the tax abatements. They were great pioneers. I do not want this debate to pass on my part without recording their contribution. They have served us well. They have served themselves well too perhaps, financially.

That I do not know, but they do have reason, as men, to be proud of what they have achieved. I would hope that somebody speaking for the government would join me in that tribute. I am not sayinp that BRI'lllCO's contact with respect to the Lower Churchill is in the same order. It may or may not be. He will come to that, but I think we should record what they did on the Upper Churchill. It was one of the great saras in Newfoundland's history, Sir. The thousands of men who '.worked there will speak well of BRINCO. The people 6962

June 7, 1Q74 Tape 1721 PK-7 of Labrador will speak well of BRINCO. Now, Sir, on the bill before the committee, let me say one other thing about the Upper Churchill: In retrospect it would seem that there was a good cause for questioning what was done in 1966, in the micl llJ/;O's and the early ] 970' s and the conventional wisdom with resp .ect to the development of the Upper Churchill. The conventional wiseom then was that it w;,is a great project and . that '·Jewfound\and was ii:oing to do well. Nobody questioned it.

I heard noborly quest.ion it until at 1 east 1970 or 1971. 11lobody did: the conventional wis<1o'!I swept .i 1 1 alon~ ~dth :!t. In history it seems that thewe is at least a case for questioninv it· it may have heen a conclusive case. That fact, that there was a case for questioning it, lead me to say that there is a case today for CJUestioninJ]' the conventional wi sdol'I of the Lower Churchil J. deal. The Lower Churchill <leal, as outlined by the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Enerry, the conventional wisdom is: Hurrah! T-/hat a great thing it is! Ent there is a case for questioning that.

T propose to raise some Questions. We are not saying we are opposing it. I still do not know enoup,h to know whether the T,o-<.,er Churchill deal should p:o ahead or not. The Upper Churchill is a separate matter alto~ether. The h.i]l before the committee now, strictly speaking (Fortunately Your Honour is allowed to deba .te it.) is to cover Labrador water and Labrador power· because that is what it is all about. The bill itself is fairly straightforward. It must be clear what we are ~oing. The Minister of Finance said so yesterday, I think.

I did not make detailed notes on that part of his statement but I do not think he did anything except to make it clear that all that this bill does is to authorize the government to enter into certain agreements and above all to borrow $160 million for the purpose of buying two assets, two tangible legal rights, the first on of these being fifty-six percent of the shares of Churchill Falls Labrador Corporation, a federally incorporated company, a company which when the share purchase is completed will only have two shareholders. Either the Government of Quebec or Hydro Quebec ( I do not 6963

.J,ine 7, 1974 Tape 1723 PK-8 know which holds the shares.) who will lio1d ahout thirty-four per cent and the Govern;nent of Newfoundland and Labrador who will hold sb:ty-five per cent. He now hold nine per cent of CFLC and for :';160 million we arc Roing to buy the other fiftv-six oer cent, in round numbers. We will also r>e buyin? certain water rights in Lahrador· all of the water rip.hts other than those previously alienated. 1 do not think that there were any previously alienated before the RRINCO Agreement of 19 53.

T do not know if there were or were not: hut the apreement of 1953 said, " .. all except th0se that have been previously alienated.' I do not know if anv were alienated or not hut we a.re now buying every­ thing that P.RINCO owned with respect to water ri<';hts in Labrador. As far as that goes. '1r. Chairman, that is eminently acceotable, eminently se_nsihle. The minister sai(\ yesterday that he thought we would probably question the amount to he paid. He had reason to think that because, as he hinse!F all but said, the government have pain mill ions too much for what they are huying in Labrador.

They were prepare<l to take over all of l\RINCO. all of it. for about Sl 7n inillion. I understand there are outstandin~ in RRTNCO Corporation (A Newfoundland company anr:l thus subject to the will of this Lei,:islature.) about twenty-four l'li Ilion shares. l <lo not have the precise fir-ures; perhaps the Minister of Industrial Develop!llent has. noes the minister remember? It is about twenty-four million here of common stock. The government were prepared to buy them. as the Premier told the committee, at $7.07 per share. That works out almost exactlv to ~170 million. For that price. ~r.

Chairman, the govenunent were prepared and could,in fact had the legal power to do so or the House had, to take over everyth1 n!! that BRIN CO owned. We all know what happened. The Premier made his announcement and then the government started nep;ot-1.ating, and the neS?;otiations ended in an agreement, the one, the share-purchase agreement, now before the committee. The result of that was that the government paid $160 million. They paid too much: they were had. I do not know how much too much they pain. It may have been $1 million or it may have been $50 million. 6964

June 7, 1974 Tape 1723 (Afternoon) PK - 9 and daum the consequences,which would have been quite considerable. Now they negotiated a deal and like a bunch of cream puffs gave in at $l6C 6965

June 7, 1974. Tape 1724 RH - l million • Well it is only money I know but it is a lot of money and even ten millions or twenty millions is too much if it is surplus. We need money in this Province. The Minister of Finance wings fourteen millions in extra taxes out of us this year. He thought enough about the need for fourteen million dollars to risk the political unpopularity of raising taxes. So when the Minister of Finance said he thought we would oppose it, he was right because he knew the truth. He Knows the facts perhaps better than any of us.

He c:rtainly knows them better than me because he has not given us any facts,which is the next point,and perhaps one of the honourable gentlemen who speak will give as some information. We have yet to see and two ministers have spoken. Thev have taken. I suppose, about two and a half or three hours in total between them, but have yet to rive tis any financial information at a11. He arC" being asked to put the people of this Province on the back of $160 million or actually,if you read the bill, on the back of $320 million. The bill is not $160 million, Your Honour, it is $320 million.

That is what this government will be authorized by this bill to pay for. Not one single minister has given the people of this Province any information about how long it will be paying l ,,.: k. \•;c, know the Rank of Nova Scotia lent the money and they would lend money to Communist China if it were a good husiness <le~!. Whv shoµlcl thev not? I want to know, the people of Newfoundland want to know how long it is going to take to pay back this money? What is the interest rate going to be? Are we paying prime rate, eleven per cent,or are we going to pay more than prime?

I want to know what sort of revenue CFLCo generate. It is astonishing, Sir. Here we are. We are going to become two-thirds shareholders in a company which the government tell us is vital to the very •life of our Province and they do not trust the people of this Province far enough even to table a balance sheet or a profit and loss statement or anything. It is a shameful display. 6966

June 7, 1974. Ta1>e 1724 RH - 2 The Minister of Finance I thought would do it. When the Minister of Finance did not,! figured for certain the Minister of Mines and Energy would,but they have gone through their speeches, I two and a ha 1 lf, three hours and not a word from any of them. Is it going to take us twenty years to pay this off? One hundred and twenty years or twenty weeks? I do not know.

All I know about BRINCO is what they have put out in their public press releases and they get a certain amount of money from CFLCo,and they disclose that hecause they l'lre a puh lie comp,my. 1'hose are the divir1end!' pa1d from CFLCo to BRINCO,representing BRINCO's fifty-six per cent interest. I do not know what sort of reserve CFLCo may have. I do not know if it has any reserves or not. I do not know anything at all. I have seen their published statements, of course. Their published statements are available. They have published them in English and in French.

I would like somebody in the ministry to tell this House, this committee, the people of this Province something about the finances. I would like to know where the $160 million figure came from. I suspect the government gave in like a bunch of cream puffs at the end and slashed out too much money. The Minister of Finance all but admitted that yesterday. He did not say quite that but he all but said it. I would like to know how it is going to be paid back, how long it is going to take,because this bill, Mr. Chainuan, puts the credit of the Province squarely behind that money, every single nickel of it.

Do not be fooled by anybody who is saying that it is an indirect debt. In the eyes of the financial community this will show as every much a direct debt as the Power Commission. The present Minister of Finance was over here on his first trip over. He will have another one coming up in due course. How he used to wax eloquent about the debt of the Province and on how many hundreds of millions of dollars it was. He used to include in that figure all the indirect debt, the Power Commission gaurenteed by the Province, most of it, and one thing and another. Now 696"7

June 7, 1974. Tape 1724 RH - 3 Ry Heavens! He is on the other side and again now he has changed his tune. He might not have changed his P.olicy but he certainly changed his position. Now all of a sudden it does not affect our credit. That is nonsense. The $160 millions goes on our credit, It will show in our balance sheets,a contingent liability in the eyes of the financial community,because this is a controlled subsidiary. It will show as a direct de h t ,a l t will be regarded as a direct debt. That is certainly correct.

The Minister of Finance did not point that out nor did the Minister of Ener~y,and it is equivalent to one years's borrowing for everything. The minister's budget this year, he is going to borrow,if he live with_his estimates,about $160 million for -everything; debt repayment, schools, hospitals, the whole works. So we have one more year now. We got two years borrowing in one, That is not necessarily a bad thing. It is an asset that will produce some revenue. J assume it will produce enough to service th~ deht. do not know c 11,,, t, r nnJy assume it.

The ministry have either neglected to tell the people of Newfoundland or are too contemptuous to tell the people of Newfoundland the truth. Well, let them reveal that information. Let them make it public. Let them give the people the facts because this $160 million is going directly on our debt as a Province. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: No, no. Oh! Cl,me nowl It may show as a contingent liability, but the minister says no. When he was over here how he uaed to wax eloquent. Sir, everything was a direct debt then, everythin~. Yes, the minister wanes just as well as he waxes too.

If ever there were a shooting star that crossed the firmament, Mr. Chairman, and disappeared out to sea in the'death of night,it is the Minister of Finance. Now, Mr. Chairman, how can one be statesmanlike, Sir, with a man who changes his principles as readily as he changes his shirt: AN HONOURABLE MEMSER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Well,.then he has certainly found some new ones which are in conflict with his previous ones.

June 7, 1974. Tape 1724 RH - 4 Now, Mr. Chairman, my colleague last yea~ in the Shaheen bill, or the year before, exposed the Minister of Finance for what he truly is. The peop'le of Newfoundland know that, but that is a little off topic. Let me say another word about bill 82, Mr. Chairman. I would hope the honourable gentleman comes and runs against me in White Bay North. The honourable gentleman could not get elected in White Bay North if he were the only name on the ballot. The only way the honourable gentleman could sweep White Bay North is if hewer~ given a broom and a dustpan and put to work. MR.

EVANS: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Ah! The gentleman from Burgeo has once again entered the debate. Now it has a high intellectual calibre. MR. EVANS: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I have never before run into people who were ashamed of their member until I ran into the honourable gentleman's consituents. When one hears him spe~k in the House,one knows why. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: Your Honour feels that the gentleman from Burgeo is somewhat out of order. MR. EVANS: No, I was not out of order. The honourable gentleman is. MR.

ROBERTS: They sent a group away to the retarded childrens athletics. How come he is not there? Now, Sir, a few words about bill 82 that I think are relevant. First of all it is a direct charge upon the debt of the Province. Section (5) gives the cabinet the power to gaurantee unconditionally both as to principal, interest, including interest and overdue interest, premiums if any and sinking fund payments if any, any and all loans raised by the Industrial Development Corporation. So it is a charge against the Province.

Secondly, coming from a cabinet, particularly the Minister without Portfolio, the gentleman from St. John's East who used to be so eloquent on giving back to the House the power to borrow, this 6969

June 7, 1974. Tape 1724 RH - 5 POVernment are asking for an unprecedented grant of authority. The cabinet, it is not the House of Assembly, Sir, that is borrowing this money, it is the cabinet. They have the power to set the terms, the rates, the discounts, the evervthinp.. There is not even a requirement in this hill that they have even to inform the House. The bill would give the government this vast power. I think it just ar.ain exposes the hypocrisy of the position taken by the cabinet. Was it a year past we ~eard the mealy-mouthed exhortations of a number of ministers about how they were restoring democracy?

Weli now, here they are, the largest single amount ever borrowed on our credit, and they are not even proposinp. to refer it hack to the House; , Thirdly. it is not $360 million as thev would pretend. It should he noterl that this bill gives the government authority to borrow $320 million. A.~ HONOURABLE MEtffiER: What is the 320 figure? -- - - ------ '-'R. ROBERTS: What is the 320 figure? It is twice HiO and if one - ·----- looks at

section 3 - (4) it says, ''Subject to subsection (S)" (which requires the repayment of the interim loan) ''a loan not exceedinr, the statutory sum·' (i.e. $160 million) "maybe raised under subsection (1)" (which authorizes the corroration to go borrow money) ''even if an interim loan has been raised by the Corooration under subsection (3) and even though, pending the reoayrnent of the interim loan, the liability of f'.er Ma.iesty will exceed the statutory sum but the liability of Her Maiesty in resoect of the sum of the loans raised under subsection (1) and (3) shall not, snhjer.c to Section (4)" 1(which provides for even more escalation) ·shall not exceed double the statutory sum.

The statutory sum in 2 (

e) is defined at $160 millions. Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: ----- -- No limit on the interim financing. The gov·ernment could go out and borrow the interim financing tomorrow and the main financing a year from now and carry on. This provides for the borrowing of 6970

June 7, 1974. Tape 1724 RH - 6 $320 million, not $160 million. I do not pretend to be a legal draftsman, Mr. Chairman, but I would have thought the government could have done better than that if they had really wanted to. The honourable Minister of Finance crossed the floor of the House, I left the cabinet over $5 million in interim financing. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: The gentleman from Green Bay has erupten again. Ah! That is not fair. I should not hold him responsible - MR. W. ROWE: There is an election now. He should go and snatch a few posters. MR.

ROBERT-£: Yes, yes, I had forgotten that. Did the honourable gentleman snatch any posters recently? MR. B. PECKFORD: CoMe to Green Rav. MR. ROBERTS: I would love to come to Green Bay, Sir. I would like to visit it while the honourable gentleman is still the member.which means I must do so quickly. AN HONOURABLE MF.MBER: l'e would be afraid. MR. ROBERTS: Afraid of the honourable gentleman, A..'111 HONOURABLE MEMBER: Yes. MR. ROBERTS: Oh, no! I mean I have faced far worse than that. Why just the other night there was a fly loose in our house and I had to go and kill it.

So I mean,I am not scared of the honourable gentleman. I am not even scared of - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: He is afraid, MR. CHAIRMAN (Dunphy): Order, please! Honourable gentlemen are not being relevant to the bill that is now being debated. I would also caution mel!lbers to my left that when a member is speaking he is to be heard in silence,and to afford him that courtesy. Honourable members will have time to speak later in the debate. ' MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. They all seem very worried about White Bay North.

As a matter of fact they sent a man from Green Bay down there last time and he did not even win the nomination, Mr. Cyril Pelly lost the nomination. 6971

June 7, 1974. Tape 1724 RH - 7 Now, Sir, the other yahoo, the gentleman from Bonavista South, has honoured us again with his presence. Mr. Chairman, the real questions raised by this bill go ~eyond the points I have just made. In fact the government have authority to borrow up to $320 million which is equal to a quarter of the debt of this Province this day . The fact that they are ratifying a deal they have already entered into, the deal is not subject to ratification. They have spent $160 millions and it would be a very interesting thing if this House defeated the government on this issue.

Could BRINCO sue for $160 millions? As I read the Sherbrooke's Agreement,they could if they wanted to. It is not subject to ratification. The other agreement for the hydro rights of ~ourse is sub1ect to ratification because it has the .,ffect of amenct1ng 1ep.: 1.s u,t1t,1,. The government of this Province.without any reference to anybody except themselves . and I am not even sure they have done that, have put the people of Newfoundland on the back of at least $160 million. They have done that.

They are the crowd who were going to consult the people and were not going to enter into any deals without explaining,and they etill have not explain ed it. They signed it on Wednesday. G· ve lt away, it is done now, $160 millions gone. The House will sustain them but how contemptuous of them to think that the House would. That shows their respect 3 !, , 1 rt' r.ar d f or the House of Assembly. Now, Hr. Chairman, the real issues raised by this bill are the ones to which the Minister of Finance has largely addressed himself and the ones to which the Minister of Energy has largely addressed himself.

These are the real questions that should be dealt with by this committee. The purchase of the Upper Churchill, we bought a going concern, largely in operat!on. It will be finished in six or eight months. They have the people to operate it. Everything is .1 im-dandy, a very lucrative little investment.I have no doubt. I hope the government will give us the figure. I hope they will honour us by letting us know how much it is going to cost and what we are going to net each year. Are we going tt 6972

June 7, 1974. Tape 1724 RH - 8 make a profit on our money and all of those things? How many •.·;:a r~ to pay off the $1~0 million? If the company is making $16 millions a year and we are paying eleven per cent on $160 millions we are paying nearly $13 millions a vear in interest. I mean,what are the figures? I do not know what they are. I know only what CFLCo published in their annual reports and they certainly do not reveal that type of information. They have not even come on stream there. It is the first significant income apparently,during this year. The real questions, Mr.

Chairman, are the <Jnestions: 1-Jhat is the best way to develop the Lower Churchill and the other power resources in Labrador? Hhat is the best way to get the power we need in thts Province particularlv the Islan~ part because it is where the majoritv of our 1>eople live? !Jh,'lt is tl,e best p;;y to i't:.t lhat nower? Those are the questions. They are two separate and distinct questions. The answer to one may be the answer to another but they have to be looked at separately and examined separately and each one 1udged on its own merits. What is the best use of the power from I.ahra<lor?

We must look at that question the same way we look at the development of any other resource in our Province. What is the best way to use our forest resources, the best way to use our fisheries or our mines or our human resourceA? We must look at what is the best use of the power resources of Labrador. They are there. They are real. They can be developed. They can be used. What is the best way to use them? What will be the best return for the people of Newfound­ land and Labrador? Then, what is the best way to produce the power we need in this Province in the years to come? Those are the questions.

They hardly elevate me to the genius status in formulating them but they are the questions. They are rather I good questions. Let me say that I am not sure I know the answers to them, Mr. Chainnan. Let me say that I am equally certain and I listene<l to every word the Minister of Finance said and every work the Minister of Energy said and I heard the Premier's statements on all of them, I say now the 6973

June 7, 1974. Tape 1724 RH - 9 government are not sure of that. They are not sure of the answers to those two questions. They are not certain. The honourable gentleman spoke for an hour and a bit, Mr. Chairman, and he answered nothing and he re~ealed even less. He should be ashamed of his performance today. I expected bet•ter from him, a gentleman with his education and his dedication to the job. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, the poster-snatcher from Green Bay is at it again. I wonder what he is paying for posters now. They were at a pretty low level in Hermitage. What was it?

One dollar? flp ,,,we thP little fellow, one dollar; Poster Snatcher! Poster Snatcher! Jhat a contribution for a man to make to a campaign, to snatch posters. MR. CHAIRMAN (Dunphy): Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: No wonder he was demoted. Does Your Honour want to say something? MR. CHAIRMAN: (Dunphy): I asked for order! MR. ROBERTS: By all means. I think anytime Your Honour asks for order he should have it. Now, Sir, as I was saying before the poster-snatcher from Green Bay interrupted me. , _. trouble with a small mind, Mr, Chairman, is that it latchP>. o:, to the r.limmer of ,m irlea and it can r.:o no fLtrthc,r.

That is what is happening to him. Now, Sir, the honourable-Ah! vhy even dignify him by replying to him? Mr. Chairman, the real issue before this committee now is nothing less than the future of this Province. The Lower Churchill development has the potential to cripple this Province financially or it has the potential to help this Province substantially. It could do either. We are being asked now, the government are saying that they are about to launch us on a project which will not be $1.1 billions, not $1,100 million.

The true cost when all is said and done will be closer to $1.5 billion, an amount equivalent to the provincial debt. That is what the true cost will be,of that order. That is what the government are talking about. 6974

June 7, 1974. Tape 1724 RH - 10 The government proposed by this one project to double our debt and even if Ottawa lend them the monev as I hope and expect and believe I they will, if they can make a case for it. which they have not. as yet, then it sti 11 shows on our debt. It has taken us, Sir, fou r hundred years to reach a debt of 1.4 6975 •· ..

June 7, 1974 Tape 1725 (Afternoon) PK - 1 hillion. Most of it came in the ).ast twenty-five years, ~Ii!JO million of it, in round terms, has come in the las.t _two years. But all of the roads and all of the schools and all of the hospitals, everything else we have in Newfoundland and Labrador today, the I.inerhoard Mill at Stephen­ ville, the Bay D'Espoir Power Project and everything else that the public own, the province owns, that the corporate state owns has cost us, othPr than ouc taxes and l-!hat we paid out, a debt of about $1,400,000,000.

The amount of money we are talking about now, the Lower Churchill project,is about the same. It will double that debt. I, for one, am not satisfied by the cavalier and gay assurances of the Minister of Finance. I have watched the minjster ~or £our n, rive vears no1,1. He is well worth w2tchinp. He is one of the ahJc,st ri~n in the I-louse , one of the ablest men in Newfoundland. Of course· I watch him and I try and learn from him.

I respect him and I admire him in many ways hut I learned when the minister gets on his feet and starts gettinp sarcastic as he was yesterday , he knows he is on sticky gronn,'. he knows that the facts do not suoport him and thus he gets off his oratorical tricks and starts gettinp; sarcasttc and trying out his t-rit on my colleague for Bell Island who is more than able to hold his own and pive better than he gets. But yesterday I was ouite taken by the '4inister of Finance's attitude with respect to the ouestion of the debt. God, I hope Brjan Peckford has not crossed the floor, I do not want him.

It puts me in the same class as the peoule of r.reen Bay. ~•r. Chairman, the Minister of Finance has got to do hetter thim .iust p.et up and ~ive cc1vi'1 11.er assurances about itow it will not affect our debt. T say 1. t will affect our debt. I say it will affect our borrowing power in the province. The Minister of Finance has time and time again, it has become a theme song with him, said that we must restrain our borrowing. In 1972 he said it. In 1973 he said it. In lll74 he said it. If he were still ~inister of Finance next year he sc101Jl,1 be saying it again. ';We must restrict our borrowing. We are limited.

No! No! No!,· That is all he knows. 6976

June 7, 1974 Tape 1725 (Afternoon) PK - 2 This year · he increased taxes. I will tell you why, not for $14 rnillion. Fourteen million dollars why the government increased taxes this year? They increased them because the bond rnarkets said to them,no matter what the Minister of Finance says, the truth is that the bond market said to them, '"You have got to raise more money by taxing your people before we will lend you the money you want.,. He can deny that until he is black and blue in the face hut what I sav 1.s correct. I say now, I say now, Mr.

Chairman, from a better source than did the Minister of Finance, I say now, ~r. Chairman, that the government have to proceed very carefully and with a great deal more study and caution and attention and concern than thev have shown before they launch on this wild extravangance. The Minister of Finance yesterday, oh, how went on about garnblinr'. Him! He is the rnan who stood over here and castigated Joe Smallwood for gambling on Come By Chance. Compared to this Come By Chance is a sure thing. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Yes.

Before any money was spent on Come By Chance other than the $5 million - over which he left the cabinet and Mr. Clyde Wells. the only two who did. The Minister of Munic:fpal Affairs did not leave the cabinet, he was thrown out. He did not leave over that but the Minister of Finance did. There i~ credit for it. He is entitled to that credit. So did Mr. Clyde Wells, who then sat for Humber East. They left the cabinet over $5 millions. That was the only money at risk in Come By Chance. Already in this one we have $20 millions at risk, the $14 millions in the budget plus the $5 millions it would cost them to get out.

AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Twenty millions at risk now. I will tell you why they are at risk. I will tell you why the f!'.OVernment are rushing ahead. Because they have to have a big project. They see there is an election com1ng up. " Boys, we are going to get hammered." I can hear it in cabinet now. 697'/

June 7, 1974 Tape 1725 (Afternoon) I PK - 3 "We are going to get hammered. We have got to t:ry and save it, get sorie b·1r, project,'' and in comes the Tishmont Report sayin!\ that there must be a go ahead by April 1, 1974 . That is why the rush. It is the only reason, the only reason for the rush. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. ~.

ROBERTS: Well the project may be sound or the project may not be sound, I do not know, nor does any member of this House,including the Minister of Finance, the Minister of Energy, the Minister of Industrial Development, fhe gentleman for Placentia East or any other member of this House does not know whether the Lower Churchill project can be financed and is sound the way they outline it. AN HON. MF.MBFR: Inaudible. MR.

ROBERTS: The Premier - The honourable gent;J.eman will have to do better than that, I got $25.00 here that is worth more than the honourable gentleman laying his reputation on the line on this matter. AN HON. ~.EMBER: Could we have a little mo~e collateral,please? Mi>.. ROBERTS: Yes. Could we have some security. AN HON. MEMBER: The ~ember for Burgeo - MR. ROBERTS: The Member for Burgeo is assured of it. MR. ROWE, W. N. Oh, well that is good collateral. MR. ROBERTS: That is• the bond market will rust to lend us $1.5 billion on the strength of that. As a matter of fact, vou can see the shins, The 'Edmond B.

Alexander' was the largest ship ever to sail through the Narrows but the ship that comes in bringing the money that New York and London and Paris and Toyko will send here to back up the opinion of the Member for Burgeo, Sir, will be larger than the "Edmond B ". No wonder they are blasting out the Narrows, Sir. The word has gone out. They will need - John Shaheen hired the ';Queen Elizabeth" to come to Cr.r-• ~ • Chance. llv heaven! He will need two of her to bring the money in. The gentleman from Burgeo shonlc1 do well, if he do about,to keep silent. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. not know what he is talking MR.

ROBERTS: Now, Mr. Chairmaa, the point I am making - 6978

June 7, 1974 Tape 1725 (Afte