British Columbia Hansard — Thursday, September 24, 2009

H0924pm-05

British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

First Session, 39th Parliament o FFicial rePort o F Debates of the Legis Lative a ssemb Ly (hansarD) the honourable bill bari So FF, SPeaker iSSn 0709-1281 Thursday, September 24, 2009 Afternoon Sitting Volume 3, Number 5

Pro Vince o F britiS h colu Mbia (entered c onfederation July 20, 1871) lieutenant -Go Vernor h is h onour the h onourable Steven l. Point, obc First Session, 39th Parliament SPeaker o F the leGiS latiVe a SSeMbl Y h onourable bill barisoff eXecutiVe council Premier and President of the executive c ouncil ......................................................................................................h on.

Gordon c ampbell Minister of State for intergovernmental r elations ....................................................................................................h on. n aomi Y amamoto Deputy Premier and Minister of Finance .......................................................................................................................... h on. c olin h ansen Minister of State for the o lympics and a ctn ow b.c. ....................................................................................................... h on.

Mary Mcn eil Minister of a boriginal r elations and r econciliation .....................................................................................................h on. George a bbott Minister of a dvanced e ducation and l abour Market Development ............................................................................ h on. Moira Stilwell Minister of a griculture and l ands ...................................................................................................................................h on.

Steve Thomson a ttorney General ...................................................................................................................................................... h on. Michael de Jong, Qc Minister of c hildren and Family Development and Minister r esponsible for c hild c are ............................................h on.

Mary Polak Minister of citizens' Services and Minister r esponsible for Multiculturalism and the Public a ffairs bureau ...........h on. ben Stewart Minister of c ommunity and r ural Development ................................................................................................................h on. bill bennett Minister of e ducation and Minister r esponsible for early l earning and l iteracy ......................................h on.

Margaret MacDiarmid Minister of energy, Mines and Petroleum r esources .....................................................................................................h on. blair l ekstrom Minister of State for Mining ................................................................................................................................................h on. r andy h awes Minister of environment .......................................................................................................................................................h on. barry Penner Minister of State for c limate a ction ...........................................................................................................................................h on.

John Y ap Minister of Forests and r ange and Minister r esponsible for the integrated l and Management bureau ........................... h on.

Pat bell Minister of h ealth Services ...................................................................................................................................................h on. k evin Falcon Minister of h ealthy l iving and Sport ...................................................................................................................................... h on. ida c hong Minister of h ousing and Social Development .................................................................................................................h on. r ich c oleman Minister of l abour ................................................................................................................................................................ h on.

Murray c oell Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General .....................................................................................................................h on. k ash h eed Minister of Small business, t echnology and e conomic Development ................................................................................ h on. iain black Minister of t ourism, c ulture and the a rts ...................................................................................................................... h on. k evin k rueger Minister of t ransportation and infrastructure ...................................................................................................................h on.

Shirley bond leGiS latiVe a SSeMbl Y l eader of the official o pposition ...................................................................................................................................................c arole James Deputy Speaker .................................................................................................................................................................................... l inda r eid a ssistant Deputy Speaker .............................................................................................................................................................c laire t revena Deputy c hair, c ommittee of the Whole .......................................................................................................................................... h arry bloy c lerk of the l egislative a ssembly...................................................................................................................e.

George MacMinn, obc, Q c c lerk a ssistant ..................................................................................................................................................................................r obert Vaive c lerk a ssistant and l aw c lerk................................................................................................................................................. ian D. izard, Qc c lerk a ssistant and c lerk of c ommittees ................................................................................................................................. craig h.

James c lerk a ssistant and c ommittee c lerk .................................................................................................................................... k ate r yan-l loyd Sergeant-at-a rms .................................................................................................................................................................................

Gary l enz Director, h ansard Services ............................................................................................................................................................Jo-a nne k ern a cting l egislative l ibrarian .......................................................................................................................................................... Peter Gourlay l egislative c omptroller ....................................................................................................................................................................... Dan a rbic

alP habetical liS t o F MeMberS a bbott, h on. George (l) ........................................................................ Shuswap a ustin, r obin (nDP) ................................................................................ Skeena bains, h arry (nDP) ....................................................................Surrey-n ewton barisoff, h on. bill (l) ............................................................................Penticton barnett, Donna (l) ................................................................ c ariboo-c hilcotin bell, h on.

Pat (l) ..................................................... Prince George–Mackenzie bennett, h on. bill (l) ...................................................................k ootenay e ast black, Dawn (nDP) ................................................................n ew Westminster black, h on. iain (l) ..................................................... Port Moody–c oquitlam bloy, h arry (l) ......................................................................burnaby-l ougheed bond, h on.

Shirley (l) ...........................................Prince George–Valemount brar, Jagrup (nDP) ................................................................ Surrey-Fleetwood c adieux, Stephanie (l) ...........................................................Surrey-Panorama c ampbell, h on. Gordon (l) .........................................Vancouver–Point Grey c antelon, r on (l) ..............................................................

Parksville-Qualicum c hong, h on. ida (l) ..................................................... o ak bay–Gordon h ead c houhan, r aj (nDP) ........................................................... burnaby-e dmonds c oell, h on. Murray (l) ....................................Saanich n orth and the islands c oleman, h on. r ich (l) ...........................................

Fort l angley–a ldergrove c onroy, katrine (nDP) .............................................................. k ootenay West c oons, Gary (nDP) .........................................................................n orth c oast c orrigan, k athy (nDP) ..................................................... burnaby–Deer l ake Dalton, Marc (l) .............................................................. Maple r idge–Mission de Jong, h on.

Michael, Qc (l) .............................................. a bbotsford West Dix, a drian (nDP) ............................................................Vancouver-kingsway Donaldson, Doug (nDP) ......................................................................... Stikine e lmore, Mable (nDP) ................................................... Vancouver-kensington Falcon, h on. k evin (l) ..........................................................Surrey-c loverdale Farnworth, Mike (nDP) ............................................................

Port c oquitlam Fleming, r ob (nDP) .......................................................... Victoria–Swan l ake Foster, eric (l) .......................................................................Vernon-Monashee Fraser, Scott (nDP) ............................................................a lberni–Pacific r im Gentner, Guy (nDP) .........................................................................Delta n orth h ammell, Sue (nDP) .................................................... Surrey–Green t imbers h ansen, h on. c olin (l) ..................................................

Vancouver-Quilchena h awes, h on. r andy (l) ..................................................... a bbotsford-Mission h ayer, Dave S. (l) .................................................................... Surrey-t ynehead h eed, h on. k ash (l) ...................................................... Vancouver-Fraserview h erbert, Spencer (nDP) ..................................................Vancouver–West end h ogg, Gordon (l) ............................................................... Surrey–White r ock h organ, John (nDP) .......................................................................

Juan de Fuca h orne, Douglas (l) ..............................................c oquitlam–b urke Mountain h oward, r ob (l) .....................................................................r ichmond c entre h untington, Vicki (ind.) ..................................................................Delta South James, c arole (nDP) .........................................................Victoria–b eacon h ill k aragianis, Maurine (nDP) ........................................e squimalt–r oyal r oads k rog, l eonard (nDP) ........................................................................... n anaimo k rueger, h on. k evin (l) ..................................... k amloops–South Thompson kwan, Jenny Wai ching (nDP) ...........................

Vancouver–Mount Pleasant l ake, t erry (l) .....................................................k amloops–n orth Thompson l ali, h arry (nDP) ..........................................................................Fraser-n icola l ee, r ichard t . (l) .......................................................................burnaby n orth l ekstrom, h on. blair (l) .......................................................

Peace r iver South l es, John (l) .........................................................................................c hilliwack l etnick, n orm (l) ........................................................k elowna–l ake c ountry MacDiarmid, h on. Margaret (l) ..................................... Vancouver-Fairview Macdonald, n orm (nDP) ....................................c olumbia r iver–r evelstoke Mcintyre, Joan (l) ..................................................West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Mcn eil, h on.

Mary (l) .................................................Vancouver–False creek Mcr ae, Don (l) ............................................................................. c omox Valley Mungall, Michelle (nDP) ..........................................................n elson-creston Penner, hon. barry (l) ............................................................c hilliwack-h ope Pimm, Pat (l) ..........................................................................Peace r iver n orth Polak, h on.

Mary (l) ...............................................................................l angley Popham, l ana (nDP) ...................................................................Saanich South r alston, bruce (nDP) ................................................................

Surrey-Whalley r eid, l inda (l) .............................................................................r ichmond e ast r outley, bill (nDP) .................................................................. c owichan Valley r outley, Doug (nDP) ............................................n anaimo–n orth c owichan r ustad, John (l) ........................................................................... n echako l akes Sather, Michael (nDP) ......................................... Maple r idge–Pitt Meadows Simons, n icholas (nDP) ...................................

Powell r iver–Sunshine c oast Simpson, bob (nDP) ...................................................................c ariboo n orth Simpson, Shane (nDP) .....................................................Vancouver-hastings Slater, John (l) ..............................................................boundary-Similkameen Stewart, h on. ben (l) ........................................................... Westside-kelowna Stilwell, h on. Moira (l) ...................................................... Vancouver-l angara Sultan, r alph (l) .....................................................

West Vancouver–capilano Thomson, hon. Steve (l) ........................................................k elowna-Mission Thorne, Diane (nDP) .................................................c oquitlam-Maillardville Thornthwaite, Jane (l) .......................................... n orth Vancouver–Seymour t revena, c laire (nDP) .................................................................... n orth island van Dongen, John (l) .............................................................a bbotsford South Y amamoto, hon. n aomi (l) ................................. n orth Vancouver–l onsdale Y ap, hon.

John (l) .............................................................r ichmond-Steveston liS t o F MeMberS bY riD in G a bbotsford-Mission .............................................................h on. r andy h awes a bbotsford South .....................................................................John van Dongen a bbotsford West ...................................................... h on. Michael de Jong, Qc a lberni–Pacific r im ..........................................................................

Scott Fraser boundary-Similkameen .....................................................................John Slater burnaby–Deer l ake ................................................................... k athy c orrigan burnaby-e dmonds ......................................................................... r aj c houhan burnaby-l ougheed ............................................................................ h arry bloy burnaby n orth .............................................................................. r ichard t . l ee c ariboo-c hilcotin ........................................................................Donna barnett c ariboo n orth ................................................................................ bob Simpson c hilliwack ...............................................................................................

John l es c hilliwack-h ope ...................................................................h on. barry Penner c olumbia r iver–r evelstoke .................................................. n orm Macdonald c omox Valley.................................................................................... Don Mcr ae c oquitlam–b urke Mountain .....................................................Douglas h orne c oquitlam-Maillardville...............................................................

Diane Thorne c owichan Valley ................................................................................ bill r outley Delta n orth ......................................................................................Guy Gentner Delta South ...............................................................................Vicki h untington e squimalt–r oyal r oads .....................................................Maurine k aragianis Fort l angley–a ldergrove ...................................................h on. r ich c oleman Fraser-n icola........................................................................................ h arry l ali Juan de Fuca .....................................................................................John h organ k amloops–n orth Thompson .............................................................t erry l ake k amloops–South Thompson ............................................ h on. k evin k rueger k elowna–l ake c ountry ...............................................................n orm l etnick k elowna-Mission .............................................................. h on.

Steve Thomson k ootenay e ast .......................................................................... h on. bill bennett k ootenay West ............................................................................ k atrine c onroy l angley.......................................................................................h on. Mary Polak Maple r idge–Mission .....................................................................

Marc Dalton Maple r idge–Pitt Meadows ........................................................Michael Sather n anaimo ......................................................................................... l eonard k rog n anaimo–n orth c owichan ......................................................... Doug r outley n echako l akes ..................................................................................

John r ustad n elson-creston ........................................................................Michelle Mungall n ew Westminster ..............................................................................Dawn black n orth c oast....................................................................................... Gary c oons n orth island .................................................................................. c laire t revena n orth Vancouver–l onsdale ........................................h on. n aomi Y amamoto n orth Vancouver–Seymour .................................................

Jane Thornthwaite o ak bay–Gordon h ead ............................................................ h on. ida c hong Parksville-Qualicum ..................................................................... r on c antelon Peace r iver n orth ................................................................................

Pat Pimm Peace r iver South ...............................................................h on. blair l ekstrom Penticton................................................................................... h on. bill barisoff Port c oquitlam ..........................................................................Mike Farnworth Port Moody–c oquitlam .............................................................h on. iain black Powell r iver–Sunshine c oast ................................................. n icholas Simons Prince George–Mackenzie .............................................................h on.

Pat bell Prince George–Valemount ...................................................h on. Shirley bond r ichmond c entre ............................................................................ r ob h oward r ichmond e ast ................................................................................... l inda r eid r ichmond-Steveston .................................................................... h on. John Y ap Saanich n orth and the islands ........................................... h on.

Murray c oell Saanich South ................................................................................ l ana Popham Shuswap ...............................................................................h on. George a bbott Skeena .............................................................................................. r obin a ustin Stikine .......................................................................................

Doug Donaldson Surrey-c loverdale .................................................................h on. k evin Falcon Surrey-Fleetwood ...............................................................................Jagrup brar Surrey–Green t imbers ..................................................................Sue h ammell Surrey-n ewton ................................................................................. h arry b ains Surrey-Panorama ..................................................................Stephanie c adieux Surrey-t ynehead ...........................................................................

Dave S. h ayer Surrey-Whalley.............................................................................. bruce r alston Surrey–White r ock ....................................................................... Gordon h ogg Vancouver-Fairview ............................................. h on. Margaret MacDiarmid Vancouver–False creek ........................................................ h on.

Mary Mcn eil Vancouver-Fraserview ..............................................................h on. k ash h eed Vancouver-hastings ....................................................................Shane Simpson Vancouver-kensington .................................................................Mable e lmore Vancouver-kingsway..........................................................................a drian Dix Vancouver-l angara ............................................................. h on. Moira Stilwell Vancouver–Mount Pleasant .........................................

Jenny Wai ching kwan Vancouver–Point Grey .................................................h on.

Gordon c ampbell Vancouver-Quilchena ..........................................................h on. c olin h ansen Vancouver–West end ................................................................Spencer h erbert Vernon-Monashee ...............................................................................eric Foster Victoria–b eacon h ill .......................................................................c arole James Victoria–Swan l ake.........................................................................r ob Fleming West Vancouver–capilano ............................................................. r alph Sultan West Vancouver–Sea to Sky ........................................................

Joan Mcintyre Westside-kelowna ...................................................................h on. ben Stewart Party Standings: l iberal 49; n ew Democratic 35; independent 1

CONTENTS Thursday, September 24, 2009 a fternoon Sitting Page Routine Business introductions by Members ....................................................................................................................................................... 799 Statements (Standing order 25b) ........................................................................................................................................... 799 employment and training of blind people in b.c. l. Popha m Mount Washington alpine Food Festival D.

Mcr ae a ccess to government information D. r outley Mountain-biking-trail project in burns l ake area J. r ustad Paramedics labour dispute M. k aragianis h enry l eland h ouse and supportive housing in kamloops t . l ake oral Questions ........................................................................................................................................................................... 802 r eport recommendations on protection system for victims of domestic violence c. James h on. M.

Polak M. k aragianis M. e lmore h on. k. h eed l. k rog Government action on violence against women D. black h on. k. h eed orphaned Wildlife r ehabilitation Society funding V . huntington h on. r . c oleman Mining exploration permit in Flathead Valley area r . Fleming h on. b. Penner r elease of report on outbreak at nanaimo h ospital a. Dix h on. k.

Falco n D. r outley t abling Documents ................................................................................................................................................................... 807 british c olumbia Ferry c ommission, annual report for fiscal year ended March 31, 2009

Orders of the Day c ommittee of the Whole h ouse .............................................................................................................................................. 807 bill 2 — b udget Measures implementation a ct (n o. 2), 2009 b. r alston h on. c. h ansen h on. k. Falco n S. h erbert h on. k. k rueger Second r eading of bills ............................................................................................................................................................ 824 bill 8 — Strata Property a mendment a ct, 2009 h on. r . c oleman S. Simpson S. h erbert M. Sather M.

Farnworth Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room c ommittee of Supply ................................................................................................................................................................ 838 e stimates: Ministry of Forests and r ange (continued) l. Popha m h on. P . bell n. Simon s b. Simpson n. Macdonald b. r outley

799 thurSD a Y , SePteMber 24, 2009 The h ouse met at 1:33 p.m. [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] Routine Business Introductions by Members L. Popham: i have ten guests to introduce today. n ine of them are part of our 13,000 blind people in b.c. The other guest is a guide dog named h illy. it's Meet the blind Month in o ctober, so i would like you to meet e lizabeth l alonde, Jeff l alonde, erin l acharity, Miriam Yusefi, oriano belusic, Doris belusic, Shane baker, Frederick Driver and kyla berry. Please make them feel welcome. Statements (Standing Order 25B) eMP lo YMent anD trainin G o F blin D Peo Ple in b .c . L.

Popham: Members of the c anadian Federation of the blind have joined us in the h ouse today to help me announce that o ctober is Meet the blind Month. Given proper training and opportunity, people who are blind can work in competitive jobs, pay taxes and participate fully in community life. h owever, because of lack of proper training and opportunity, the unemployment rate of blind people is exceeding 80 percent.

There are approximately 13,000 legally blind people in b.c. a mong those people, there are approximately 3,000 to 4,000 working-age blind. [1335] one huge barrier to blind people getting ahead is that there is no publicly accountable funding for their rehabilitation in this province. There is funding in the system for persons with mental and physical disabilities to receive rehabilitation, but this does not exist for per - sons who are blind. if you became blind, where would you go for training in essential blindness skills?

There are three highly successful world-renowned blind- ness immersion centres in the u nited States. e lizabeth lalonde, one of our guests today, has received a $45,000 grant from the n ational Federation of the blind sister organization in the u nited States to attend one of these training centres. She will be leaving tomorrow for nine months of intensive training. This type of training and funding we should be offering in british c olumbia. it is essential blindness immersion training. e lizabeth has joined us today with three other blind british c olumbians who want and need to go to this type of centre.

Their names are Shane baker, Miriam Yusefi and erin l acharity. They need to go as soon as possible so that they can get the skills they need for life and employment. r ehabilitation is a right, it is a neces- sity, and it is the only humane answer to the problems faced by blind british c olumbians. Hon. K. Falcon: i seek leave to make an introduction. Mr. Speaker: Proceed. Introductions by Members Hon. K. Falcon: t oday in the gallery a former execu- tive assistant of mine is here with her husband and her new baby boy. i would like the h ouse to please make her welcome.

She was on leave for her pregnancy and, obviously, the successful birth of a very beauti- ful young boy. c orrie Delisle, her husband, Dave, and baby, William Delisle, are here. i would ask the h ouse to please make them welcome. Statements (Standing Order 25B) Mount Wa Shin Gton al Pine Foo D Fe Sti Val D. McRae: on l abour Day weekend i had the honour of meeting Peter Gibson, general manager of Mount Washington a lpine r esort, to attend the annual Mount Washington a lpine Food Festival.

The event is a cele- bration of culinary excellence, a chance for participants to learn cooking techniques from expert local and guest chefs, and visit an incredible alpine market that show- cases food products from both the c omox Valley and Vancouver island. The event began on Friday night with emcee c orbin t omaszeski, host of the Food n etwork's Restaurant Makeover show, introducing attendees to a variety of fare, with guests noshing on products ranging from locally brewed Surgenor beer to bison sliders from island bison located in black creek.

Guests were given a chance to meet three local best-selling cookbook authors. on Saturday guests had the opportunity to attend a variety of cooking classes taught by local and guest chefs.

The chefs taught participants how to cook recipes ran- ging from chanterelle mushrooms to a chorizo, chicken and shellfish paella. a ll the restaurants highlighted local products located on Vancouver island. on Saturday evening people sat down to an eight-course gala dinner located in Mount Washington's lodge, and the chefs paired b.c. wines with exquisite courses. on Sunday the alpine market was open and gave visitors a chance to sample products. My family and i sampled the rich dark chocolate from Dark Side

british c olumbia Debates800 t hursday, September 24, 2009 c hocolate, located in the village of c umberland; the smoked oyster spread from Fanny bay o ysters, located in baynes Sound. h alstead Farms organic poultry was barbecued to perfection by barbecue king r ockin' r onnie Shewchuk. l ocals r estaurant, located in the city of c ourtenay, steamed fresh mussels to perfection, and there were a variety of cheeses from n atural Pastures c heese c o., who have won world championship gold medals for their products.

There were many more. c elebrating and valuing locally produced food prod- ucts has never been as important as it is today.

This resurgence has encouraged people to support their local agriculture industry and eat products that are both better for us and better for the environment in which we live. i wish to compliment Mount Washington for the venue, the economic development society for making agricul- ture a cornerstone of its focus, the food producers of the c omox Valley and Vancouver island and the people who have, by buying locally, helped grow a vital industry in the province of british c olumbia. bon appétit. acceSS to Go VernMent inForMation D. Routley: n ext week marks the r ight to k now Week in british c olumbia.

This is a very important week. We won't be sitting, so i would like to refer the members to it today. in 1822 James Madison, the fourth President of the u nited States, said: "a popular government without popular information, or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce or a tragedy, or perhaps both. k nowledge will forever govern ignorance, and the people who mean to be their own governors must arm themselves with the power, which knowledge gives." o ur own information officer, Mr. l oukidelis, says that access laws are of fundamental importance to open and accountable government.

Without a right of access, citizens are unable to use the information they require to participate meaningfully in the democratic process and to hold politicians and bureaucrats accountable to the citizenry. [1340] Mr. Madison's most distinctive belief was that gov- ernment required checks and balances to protect indi- vidual rights from the tyranny of the majority. We have an obligation in this h ouse to those principles.

People across this world struggle for the right to know — the right to know about products, the right to know about their governance. in this digital age, in this age of international trade, we as citizens can feel small — a small part to this equation. it is our duty to maintain vigilance over this right to know.

We have an obligation to it, to those who elect us, to knock down the barriers to our right to know, not to place new walls between the people and the information needed for a healthy democracy. i ask all the members in this h ouse to recommit, on this day and next week, to the right to know, to the right for all of our citizens to have the information it takes to have a healthy democracy in the name of our province, british c olumbia. Mountain -bikin G-trail Pro Ject in burnS lake area J. Rustad: r ural b.c. is filled with people who have a dream and, through drive and determination, make it a reality.

Such is the case with k evin Derksen, Pat Dube, Dave Sandsmark and the entire burns l ake Mountain biking a ssociation. Their passion for mountain biking — combined with the great terrain of boer Mountain, the burns l ake c ommunity Forest and the willing hands of the community — produced a world-class facility. Through their determination, the association, in partnership with the burns l ake r otary c lub and the Minister of t ourism, were able to access a grant for more than $400,000 through the job opportunities program to enable the bike association to expand their existing trails and their dreams.

Professional mountain downhill biker Jay "h oots" of n orco bikes and the Gravity l ogic trail crew helped design an unbelievable course. With their vision and expertise, burns l ake will encompass a variety of the unique and technical aspects of biking that have put british c olumbia on the n orth a merican trail-riding map. The quality of the trails rivals the world-renowned Whistler blackcomb and n orth Shore mountain trails. They're truly a marvel and well worth the trip to burns l ake to explore and compete.

With over 4,000 hectares in area, this park is sched- uled to include over 100 kilometres of cross-country trails, 15 kilometres of intermediate and expert trails exploring the mountain, a skills park with 20 drops and five jumps, and an extensive network of down- hill and free-ride routes — all of which connect to the beautiful and challenging k ager l ake trail system, a network flowing through three different lakes and further excursions of breathtaking wilderness on the doorstep of b urns l ake.

Please join me in extending an invitation to the world to come and explore this great site, as well as to congratulate burns l ake biking a ssociation on their achievements. Para Me Dic S labour DiSPute M. Karagianis: t oday i rise in the h ouse to pay trib- ute to a remarkable group of men and women who serve my community and communities right across british c olumbia, saving lives every day with exceptional dedi- cation and expertise. Whenever we have needed them, they have been there, just a 911 call away. They are the amazing paramedics of british c olumbia.

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, September 24, 2009 801 Provincewide the b.c. a mbulance Service employs about 3,500 of them, and they provide emergency pre- hospital care to the 4.3 million b.c. residents and those who visit our great province. l ast year they responded to more than 525,000 calls for help. Despite their vital role in our health care system, b.c.'s paramedics are underappreciated by government.

The british c olumbia a mbulance Service has fallen from a world leader in pre-hospital emergency care. n ow, due to a continued lack of funding, the system is stumbling under a shortage of ambulances, paramedics and related infrastructure. on a pril 1 members of the a mbulance Paramedics of b.c., cuP e 873, went on strike. e ven though they are on strike… interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. M. Karagianis: …they have continued to provide essential services to our communities, showing their enormous dedication to their job of saving lives.

Y et nearly six months have passed since the strike began, and there has been no settlement. o ur paramedics know the system is not functioning properly, and they're standing up to improve ambulance service and save lives. That takes courage and dedica- tion, and i applaud them for it. This dispute could have been avoided, yet it has dragged on needlessly. [1345] i am hopeful that a resolution will be achieved very soon. My community and communities across british c olumbia need to know that our lifeline is secure.

Paramedics must have the proper training, equipment, compensation and working conditions they deserve. it can make the difference between life and death. Mr. Speaker: i want to remind members — and the member — that in the spirit of the two-minute state- ments, they're meant to be non-partisan. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Members. henr Y lelan D hou Se an D Su PPort iVe hou Sin G in ka Mloo PS T.

Lake: o n a cold January night in 2007 h enry l eland, a homeless person in k amloops, died from exposure. l ast Friday, along with my colleague the Minister of t ourism, c ulture and the a rts, i was honoured to attend the opening of h enry l eland h ouse, a 28-unit supported- housing development in downtown k amloops that will help ensure that this kind of tragedy is prevented. i live in the neighbourhood, and i have watched this b.c. h ousing homelessness initiative project redevelop what was a run-down boarding house into this modern, energy-efficient, well-managed building that provides supports for residents at risk of addiction. i was hum- bled to listen to r andy DeWitt, the last person to see h enry l eland alive that cold January night, talk about his own struggles with alcohol and his experience living under bridges for the past three years after being evicted from the very building that would now provide him with a safe and supportive home. r andy invited Mayor Peter Milobar, the minister and myself up to his room to join him for a cup of coffee, and we learned how he was now taking classes through Thompson r ivers u niversity, how he was managing his addiction and how he hoped his new life would con- tinue in a proper direction.

The h enry l eland h ouse is managed by the aiDS Society of k amloops and the k amloops branch of the c anadian Mental h ealth a ssociation. it illustrates the remarkable community cooperation to reduce home- lessness in k amloops. This cooperation involves the provincial and federal governments, a city council that has long been a leader in providing incentives for social housing, and non-profit organizations that work closely with each other and with the community.

The h enry l eland h ouse continues to build upon the development of several other very successful housing initiatives in k amloops — such as the bedford Manor, the Victory inn and Georgian c ourt, all operated by the John h oward Society. it should be noted that despite some neighbourhood concerns about these social hous- ing initiatives, no negative impacts have occurred. in fact, people report an improvement in the neighbour - hoods in which they are located.

There's no question that these k amloops initiatives are changing people's lives for the better, and i want to congratulate bob h ughes and all the other members for making this possible. Hon. B. Penner: i seek leave to make an introduction. Mr. Speaker: Proceed. Introductions by Members Hon. B. Penner: i have the honour to introduce a young couple that i had the pleasure to have an interest- ing lunch conversation with just a few minutes ago.

We are joined by conservation officer k evin Van Damme and his wife, c oleen, who live in c learwater, british c olumbia. k evin is the recipient of the c onservation of the Y ear award, which is an award given every year to the con- servation officer who has been recognized by his or her peers for having gone above and beyond the normal call

british c olumbia Debates802 t hursday, September 24, 2009 of duty to exemplify the values of the conservation offi- cer service — namely, integrity, public service and pro- tection of the environment. Mr. Van Damme is recognized for his outstanding commitment to the ministry and the people of british c olumbia, and i ask that the h ouse please make him and his wife welcome. Oral Questions rePort reco MMenD ationS on Protection SYSte M For Victi MS o F Do Me Stic Violence C. James: in 2007 the Premier made a commitment to address domestic violence. h ere's what he said.

"e liminating violence…will require a long-term, concerted effort, and our government is committed to leading the way in north a merica…." t oday b.c.'s r epresentative for c hildren and Y outh tabled her report on the tragic death of c hristian and his family, and this is what she said: "There is no coher - ent policy framework for responding to domestic vio- lence in b.c., and children exposed to violence are not adequately supported." Y et as we know, this government continues to under- fund and neglect the c hildren Ministry.

So my question is to the Minister of c hildren and Families. t oday, as we all remember this tragic loss, will the government make a commitment today to support families exposed to domestic violence? [1350] Hon. M. Polak: The report that the representative tabled today takes us back to a horrible crime, what is truly an unspeakable event. For those who have had a chance to read the report, i can tell you that it is one that is not only difficult to read, but it is difficult to comprehend how anything like this could ever happen in a family.

We are absolutely committed to resolving the issues that the representative has raised in this report, and i am proud to say that work is already underway. We cer- tainly owe that to the memory of this family. Mr. Speaker: l eader of the o pposition has a supplemental. C. James: i'd like to quote again from the report. "The tremendous risk of harm to c hristian was not fully appreciated by those who were in positions of authority because the necessary structural components to do the work of assessing and protecting were not in place.

We failed c hristian." i hear this government talking about leading the way, but let's look at the reality. Fewer staff providing services, budget cuts, fewer supports for children. a gain, my question is to the minister. Will she explain how fewer staff and budget cuts will help strengthen supports for families? Hon. M. Polak: it's clear from the representative's report that there were quite a number of people who were work- ing very hard to try and do the right thing for c hristian and his family, to try and protect him and his mother. Sadly, they were working in silos.

They weren't integrated in their approach.

They weren't collaborating. i'm quite confident that every one of those people who were working with that family thinks probably every day about things that they could have done differently, choices they could have made that would be different. o ur task now is to learn from this report, to learn from our own review, to learn from the eventual report of the coroner's inquest and to move forward to provide the services that are needed. but i want to remind the member that we are at a time now when we are seeing an increase in the number of social workers around our province, when we are seeing an increase in the amount of funding that is going to our ministry. i can tell you, Mr.

Speaker, that the efforts of all those social workers and the efforts of us as we take a look at the funding we have…. Those efforts are going to be directed toward providing the very best in support and service for children. Mr. Speaker: l eader of the o pposition has a further supplemental. C. James: We've heard these kinds of words before. We've heard these kinds of words before from this gov- ernment without actions and follow-up and without the resources to put the necessary services and supports in place to ensure that these kinds of things don't ever happen again.

The report has called on this government to take responsibility for b.c.'s families. The report says that "the key ingredient for success is political will. it can be done, because it's being done elsewhere, and it should be done immediately." So my question again is to the minister. Will she agree to do what needs to be done and today — today in this l egislature — make a commitment to this h ouse to implement all of the recommendations in this report? Hon. M. Polak: We are absolutely committed to resolv- ing each and every one of the issues that are raised in this report.

We are already working together — between the Ministry of c hildren and Family Development, the a ttorney General's ministry and also Public Safety and Solicitor General — to review our current practices and services, to identify any potential barriers that may exist and to determine how and when we will be able to remove barriers that exist even now that prevent women

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, September 24, 2009 803 from reporting abuse and prevent women from seeking help. it is important for us to recognize that with a report of this nature, what is drawn to our attention is the very complex nature of domestic violence — the fact that this isn't something that can only be dealt with by social workers or by police or by courts. i want to quote from the representative's report, because she makes what i think is a very important state- ment and one we should all be paying close attention to.

"The onus cannot be left on child protection work- ers. a wareness must be raised amongst not only police and criminal justice workers but the general population. Friends, neighbours and family all play a role." We all have a role to play in ending domestic violence. [1355] M.

Karagianis: Glacial — that is how the children's representative has described the progress that this government has made on previous recommendations, because in fact, there have been other reports before this. t oday in her report, the representative noted that c hristian l ee's death may have been prevented had there been consistent tools, and trained and coordinated front-line staff. a gain, this is not the first time we've heard these recommendations for this government, and yet the gov- ernment is cutting staff and key supports — the things that british c olumbia's most vulnerable need to escape family violence. h ow will cutting these supports help vulnerable families, and how will it help women and children escape from violence in their homes?

Hon. M. Polak: once again, we're confronted by a horrible crime, a terrible tragedy, and something that brings before all of us the question: what more can we do to help end domestic violence? but it is absolutely incorrect to say that we are cutting staff in the Ministry of c hildren and Family Development. We agree that there was an uncoordinated approach. We agree that there was a need for integration. We agree that the police, the social workers — all of those trying to do their best for this child and his mother…. We agree that with all of those people, there needed to be a different type of response.

That's why we have already put in place a step-by-step protocol with the Saanich police department, the o ak bay police department and the Victoria police depart- ment. n ot only have we signed that protocol with them, which was developed jointly, but we have also completed training for the police departments and for McFD staff. a s we work together between our three ministries, we will continue to identify ways in which we can strengthen the services that we provide to women and to families. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. M. Karagianis: Well, you know, Mr.

Speaker, the Premier of this province promised that this province would lead the way in protecting victims of domestic violence. in fact, the record has been abysmal and has shown anything but. The b.c. c hildren and Families Ministry is going to be hit with cuts, despite what the minister is saying here — cuts to budgets, cuts to front-line staff and a plan to serve fewer children in the future.

So it seems to me that it's time for this government to actually step up and show some leadership here and put in place resources that will protect the most vulnerable. i would like the minister today to commit to follow- ing every single recommendation that came out of this report and to reporting back, as is recommended in that, to this h ouse on how the progress has been on imple- menting every single recommendation. i'd like that commitment today here in this h ouse. Hon. M.

Polak: The member well knows that this is a complex and thoughtful and constructive report that has been given to us by the representative. We are pleased to have the opportunity to learn from the kind of extensive review that she's able to do because of her broad powers that were granted to her by this l egislature. t ogether with my counterparts in the Ministry of Public Safety and Solicitor General and the a ttorney General, we will be conducting a thoughtful and comprehensive review of this report as is warranted by its nature.

We will be then providing our detailed report, with respect to response to this, to the committee — which, again, the member well knows is the appropriate place for that. M.

Elmore: t wo days ago the Solicitor General said that cuts to funding for domestic violence programs are just an administrative cut. but that's not what the execu- tive director of Family Services of Greater Vancouver believes. a t a meeting last night t eri n icholas made it clear that these cuts will prove damaging for women and children escaping violence, and these cuts are core to the services that are desperately needed. [1400] t o the Solicitor General: how does cutting supports for the most vulnerable live up to the Premier's commit- ment to address this serious problem? Hon. K.

Heed: Thank you for bringing your concern forward, member opposite. i sympathize with these vic- tims of domestic violence. i sympathize with what the l ee family also had to go through. i'd like to take this opportunity to thank the representative for her work on the tragic crime that took place here. We want to make sure that we deliver our services in the most coordinated fashion possible, in the best way

british c olumbia Debates804 t hursday, September 24, 2009 we can at the time and when it is needed for victims of violence, so we can prevent tragedies of this nature from taking place. We are truly working on integrating and coordinat- ing our services and taking the lead in our ministry to deal with those. We are working with service providers to ensure that we meet that goal of better coordination and better integration so we can truly deliver a mean- ingful service. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. M.

Elmore: The representative said today that we need action and not words from this government on this issue, and support is needed now for these women and children.

This Premier and this government pledge to make addressing domestic violence a priority through a long-term, concerted effort. n ow the Solicitor General is cutting $440,000 this year and $1.2 million next year in funding for precisely the programs meant to protect women and children. t o the Solicitor General: is cutting over $1.5 million in critical supports for women and children his defin- ition of a long-term, concerted effort to address domes- tic violence? Hon. K. Heed: We have actually increased funding to deal with victims of violence by $2.4 million to $43 million.

We are also investing $32 million into the oper- ation of 24-7 transition houses in british c olumbia. We have a 24-7 Victimlink program in place with multi- language capabilities. We have domestic violence response units in this prov- ince that pair police officers with social workers with the resources that we need in order for us to ensure that we are increasing counselling to these victims, increasing our outreach to these victims and increasing support to the victims when it's most needed. L.

Krog: i'm not entirely sure that the Solicitor General gets it. increasing support for victims is all well and good, but we have a long history of reports in this province: Honouring Christian Lee , 2009; Keeping Women Safe , 2008; the h ughes report on children and youth, 2006 — report after report pointing to serious gaps, and a gov- ernment that doesn't seem to understand the problem, doesn't seem to realize that prevention is key here.

So my question to the Solicitor General is simply this. h ow many reports will it take before this government realizes it has to make domestic violence a genuine pri- ority, and will this government put its words where its mouth is and provide genuine resources for women and children? Hon. K. Heed: o ur government takes domestic vio- lence very, very seriously — our prevention efforts in domestic violence and our response in this domestic violence. We look at reports that do come forward. We work with those reports and learn from the reports.

The report that the representative has brought for - ward has several recommendations. We will review the report and work on ensuring that, once again, we keep domestic violence at the top of our priority list. [1405] We are investing more. We've invested $2.4 million more into dealing with victims of violence. We want to ensure that we have meaningful responses when the vic- tims are most in need. Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental. L. Krog: h on.

Speaker, saying this government makes it a priority doesn't make it a priority. it's actually doing something. c uts to the women's ministry, elimination of zero-tolerance policies, cuts to women's centres all across this province — that has been this government's response. n ow the Solicitor General will be making cuts that will strike at the heart of the most critical programs meant to protect victims of domestic violence. it's time for this Solicitor General — and he is the person there responsible — to stand up and ensure that the resources go where they are desperately needed.

So will he agree today to implement the report's recommendations? Hon. K. Heed: Thank you for bringing your concern forward. a gain, i want to thank the representative for her report. We're in the process of reviewing that report. We have met with the representative. We are ensuring that we have the technical aspects looked at as a result of that. but i want to assure the members opposite that domestic violence is a priority in this province and will continue to be a priority in this province. We are ensuring that we have 24-7 transition houses available to people here in british c olumbia.

We're ensuring that we have Victimlink, the phone ser - vice available in multi-languages, for people in british c olumbia. We're ensuring that we have victim safety units operating in the province. We're ensuring that we have domestic violence units in british c olumbia, that we have court support here in the province and that we have enhanced support for newcomers here in c anada. a t the end of the day, we all have a common goal to deal with domestic violence in the province of british c olumbia. Go VernMent action on Violence a Gain St Wo Men D.

Black: i have a very simple question for the Solicitor General. c ould he tell this h ouse: how does cutting $440,000 right now to transition houses, to counselling

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, September 24, 2009 805 services for children and women match up to his stated priority that violence against women is a priority of this government? c an he answer that question today? Hon. K. Heed: a gain, thank you for bringing that concern forward. a nd again, we are working with ser - vice providers here in british c olumbia. We are ensuring that we have programs available for victims of violence, that we are keeping our transition houses open 24-7.

We are working with them to determine what we can do to make our services better at the time when it's needed — to have those meaningful services to people when they need them. Matter of fact, i have met with several of the service providers with respect to what we can do. Staff has been working with the service providers to determine what the best practices should be and how we should go about accomplishing them. We will continue to do that.

We'll work through our problems together, and at the end of the day, we will ensure that we have the front-line ser - vices available to victims of violence. orP haneD WilD liFe rehabilitation Societ Y FunD in G V . Huntington: Y esterday i was advised that Delta's o rphaned Wildlife r ehabilitation Society, known to everyone in this h ouse as o Wl S, was refused funding. This internationally recognized organization provides rigorous volunteer training for youth at risk. its educa- tion program reaches thousands of students. it is certi- fied by Thompson r ivers u niversity for its vet technician practicums.

Would the Minister of h ousing and Social Develop- ment please tell the people of Delta and this province why o WlS doesn't fit his own priorities for funding? [1410] Hon. R. Coleman: a s i've said previously in this h ouse, this year, with the community gaming grants, we had to set some priorities. a s we set those prior - ities, some categories had to be either reduced or eliminated. o n the side of environment, which this category of application would have fallen into in this quarter, the only applications under environment being funded are bingo affiliations or three-year commitments. V .

Huntington: Delta has c anada's highest concentra- tion of raptors. The o WlS flight cages are across a ditch from the boundary bay raptor management area. The government uses the o WlS 24-hour call-out line, its officers use o WlS volunteers for rescues, and it places seized and injured raptors in o WlS's care. i'd like to ask the Minister of environment: will he exercise his duty to the wildlife of this province and ensure that o WlS receives funding so that it can get on with the job of saving b.c.'s injured birds of prey? Hon. R. Coleman: Difficult decisions were made on the grant program.

There will be food banks funded this year at a higher level than perhaps in the past. There will be some other social programs. We decided to protect the things like public safety with regards to search and rescue and meals for children in school. a s a result of that, we didn't have enough money for every category. The reality is… interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. R. Coleman: …these are annually applied-for grants that are taken on their merit on any given year, and there's no guarantee of funding from year to year. What we've done is make the right choices on behalf of the children of british c olumbia.

Minin G eXP loration PerMit in FlatheaD V alle Y area R. Fleming: The u nited n ations has sent a mission here on a fact-finding expedition to assess threats to the Flathead r iver Valley. They're conducting their work this week.

The question that is on the minds of people in that region and the fact-finding mission itself is: will the provincial government — will the province — make it possible for the c anadian government to respect its commitments that are contained under the world heritage convention by agreeing to finally protect the Flathead r iver Valley, which is adjacent to the Glacier World heritage Site? My question for the Minister of State for Mining, in addition, is: will his government…?

Will he in this h ouse, in the spirit of transparency, table documents related to the approval of Max r esource c orp.'s mining exploration permits today? Hon. B. Penner: i would gladly compare british c olumbia's environmental record to that of Montana's any day of the week. in fact, maybe the member missed it, but just this morning i introduced legislation that… interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. B. Penner: …i hope the h ouse will approve, which will establish even more protected areas in british c olumbia, including a new class a provincial park in the o kanagan.

british c olumbia Debates806 t hursday, September 24, 2009 if that bill passes, we will have established 58 new parks, 143 new conservancies and one new ecological reserve, representing 1.9 million hectares of additional protected area in british c olumbia since 2001. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Members. relea Se o F rePort on outbreak at nanai Mo ho SPital A.

Dix: Freedom-of-information documents show that the Vancouver island h ealth a uthority, for corpor- ate and political reasons, withheld a damning report of the b.c. c entre for Disease c ontrol about the C. dif- ficile outbreak at n anaimo r egional h ospital for ten months. i would like to ask the Minister of h ealth whether cabinet ministers, including the former Minister of h ealth, also received a copy of that report in a ugust or September of 2008. a nd did they approve of the deci- sion to withhold the release of that report until after the May 12, 2009, provincial election? [1415] Hon. K.

Falcon: Well, actually, the allegation and the basis of that allegation are false. The fact of the matter is that the Vancouver island h ealth a uthority obeyed the law that is clearly spelled out under the freedom of information and personal privacy act. if the member is alleging that that wasn't the case or in fact, indeed, if anyone is alleging that that wasn't the case, there is an appeal mechanism available under Foi. i would encour- age them to follow through on that. Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental. A.

Dix: i think the Minister of h ealth is stuck in the same parallel universe as the Minister of e ducation. They receive a report on an important public issue in n anaimo — a damning report, an independent report. They stick it in a drawer for ten months. They don't show it to the public. it's something of interest to everybody who works in that hospital, everyone who goes to that hospital. it's not about the Freedom of information and Privacy a ct. What those documents show is that the only considera- tion of the government, of the b.c. l iberal government, was political — their political and corporate interests.

Why did the government put this report in a drawer? Why did it hide it from the public for ten months? That's the question. Hon. K. Falcon: t o borrow from the previous Minister of h ealth, it doesn't take long for this member to climb the grassy knoll and engage in one of his massive con- spiracy theories. Sadly, it is backed up by everything but fact. it is backed up by everything but fact. The fact of the matter is that… interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. K.

Falcon: …the Vancouver island h ealth a uthority undertook two reviews, a review by their med- ical health officer and a second review that was under - taken by the b.c. c entre for Disease c ontrol. both those reports came in at different times in the new year. interjection. Hon. K. Falcon: Mr. Speaker, i recognize it doesn't fit into this member's particular political calendar. i apolo- gize to the member that it's not working for that mem- ber's political calendar. but the fact of the matter is that both those reports were presented to the executive, presented to the board, and the board reported out on them.

D. Routley: This minister's response is irresponsible. it is an insult to the people of b.c. That outbreak killed three people. it infected 90 people. Many of them were my constituents, and they had a right to know. This government, whose access to information has been condemned roundly as a failure of the public interest, suppressed that information from the people we all serve. it's not up to them to decide the political expedi- ency of when we should have information that's vital to public safety and public health. it's up to them to protect the people of b.c. They failed.

So i want to ask this minister: will he stop avoiding difficult questions and difficult truths? Will he do his duty to the people of b.c. and the people of n anaimo? Why is my community's right to know secondary to this government's right to protect its political interest? Hon. K. Falcon: it's just classic for that member to make completely baseless allegations, to try and make allegations against professionals that every day are work- ing to provide a top-level quality of service.

Y ou know, i just wish that for once, before the member opposite starts beaking off with information like that, he actually reads the reports. if he actually read the report from the b.c. c entre for Disease c ontrol, he would know…. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members.

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, September 24, 2009 807 Hon. K. Falcon: it's your time. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Members. i would advise the minister, first, to be careful in the language that he uses. c ontinue, Minister. [1420] Hon. K. Falcon: For the member to make those kinds of allegations against professionals that work in the system, who do an outstanding job every day, is outrageous. The fact of the matter is that if the member had read the report, the member would know that one of the things that is apparent nationally and internationally is that the C. diff outbreak…. Mr.

Speaker: Thank you, Minister. [end of question period.] Tabling Documents Hon. M. de Jong: i table the british c olumbia Ferry c ommission annual report for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2009. Orders of the Day Hon. M. de Jong: i call in this chamber committee stage debate on bill 2, budget Measures implementation a ct (n o. 2), and in c ommittee a, c ommittee of Supply — for the information of members, continued debate on the estimates of the Ministry of Forests and r ange.

Committee of the Whole House bill 2 — bu DGet M ea Sure S iMPleMentation act (n o. 2), 2009 The h ouse in c ommittee of the Whole (Section

b) on bill 2; c. t revena in the chair. The committee met at 2:25 p.m. on

section 1. B. Ralston: This

section proposes an amendment to the balanced budget and Ministerial a ccountability a ct. This

section was amended within the year. it proposes to substitute the authorization to project a deficit in the main accounts of the province from "2009-2010 fiscal year and the 2010-2011 fiscal year" and substitute "2009- 2010 to 2012-2013 fiscal years." c an the minister explain why he's any more confident that this projection is a reasonable one, given his profound and deep assurances when the legislation was most recently amended that indeed that was what was required? Hon. C.

Hansen: h on. c hair, you know, it's true. i think in February, if i had been asked, i would have been very confident that we would have been able to get this province back into a surplus position within the two years that we had allocated in the previous amend- ment. We have certainly relied on the best expert advice that we can seek from not only our e conomic Forecast c ouncil but the other financial indicators that we rely on as we build our budgets.

This has truly been an absolutely unprecedented year in terms of the volatility of the global economy and the subsequent impact that has had on the prov- ince of british c olumbia and our revenue projections. a s we have put our budget projections together for this coming five-year cycle, which is outlined in the budget documents, we again have relied on the best advice we can get. but nobody has a crystal ball.

There are certainly those economists who are predicting that there is at least the potential of a double dip in the global economy, even though we're starting to see some signs of the economic recession starting to bottom out at least, or at least be approaching the bottom. i guess the short answer to his question is that there is nobody who can give him or any of us 100 percent assurance that we would not see significant further deterioration, but all of the indicators are that the budget plan we've put forward is a responsible one.

We've built extra prudence into that budget and made some very conservative estimates of budget revenues going forward. We have every expectation that we will be able to once again deliver a surplus budget within the time frame that's set out in this amendment. B. Ralston: in o ttawa in the federal budget, the fed- eral Finance Minister made a similar prediction about the year in which the federal deficit would be retired. i believe it's 2015.

The independent budget officer is an office that exists in o ttawa. a n attempt by myself to raise that issue here as an issue for discussion and consideration by the gov- ernment has been rebuffed by the minister. but what that independent budget officer did say was that in his independent examination, the government's projected date for retiring the deficit was erroneous. a gain, what assurance does the minister give — beyond a bit of by guess and by golly, given the track record over the last 18 months — that indeed this fiscal year 2012-2013 is accurate?

The difficulty with this legislation is that it appears to require constant revision. it engages all the mechan- isms of the l egislature in an exercise which is really not

british c olumbia Debates808 t hursday, September 24, 2009 terribly productive, because it simply takes time to con- firm a change in legislation when circumstances change. Will the minister consider revisions to this legislation that are more accurate, in the sense that they consider that there is a budget cycle and that occasionally, in the course of the business cycle, governments will go into deficit despite the best efforts of governments of any pol- itical stripe? Hon. C.

Hansen: What we've seen in terms of the global economy over the last 12 months has been cer - tainly unprecedented in our lifetimes, and the balanced- budget legislation as we had established it, i believe, serves this province well in virtually all times — this year being an exception because of the impact of what has been an unprecedented global recession. [1430] i believe that governments need to put a high value on balanced budgets, to ensure that we don't pass forward the debts of today onto the backs of the children and grandchildren yet unborn.

With the exception of these very, very unusual economic times, this is the kind of approach to legislation that serves the province well. B. Ralston: a gain, back to this proposed amendment. Does the minister really think that his government would behave differently, in terms of endeavouring to keep the deficit to a minimum, if this legislation did not exist? isn't it more the case that this legislation exists for purely rhetorical and political purposes than serving any function in guiding government operations? Hon. C.

Hansen: i believe that governments should run deficits in only the most unusual of times, and we are certainly in very unusual times, given the global economic recession that we've seen over the last 12 months. but as i pointed out in February, when we came before this h ouse with the first amendment to this legislation that was proposed at that time, i believe that if govern- ments are going to run deficits, they should actually come before this chamber and ask for this chamber's authority to run deficits; that if it were not for this legis- lation being in place, then governments would be able to run deficits without having the specific and time-limited consent of this chamber.

That is the principle that i think is important to uphold. B. Ralston: i hate to disagree with the minister, but surely the budget document itself is the vote that gives the government the authority to run a deficit or a sur - plus, and surely that's the paramount process. This is a secondary piece of legislation that offers rhetorical guid- ance to the process. but is not control of supply — since, i think, the Magna c arta forward — the prerogative of the assembly or the parliament?

That's the ultimate authority on whether the government runs a deficit or not. i don't quite understand how this particular legislation — given that it's obviously capable of and susceptible to legislative change; it's been changed now twice in a year — really adds to the process. is it not the prerogative of the assembly to decide, the ultimate decision of the assembly in passing a budget, whether there's a deficit or not? Hon. C. Hansen: i think both legislative require- ments are important. B. Ralston: i suppose the minister is not going to answer my question on that point.

Given that this legis- lation has now been changed twice in a year, the minis- ter is expressing an understandable amount of caution about whether or not the inherent prediction in this legislation that the government will return to a surplus by the budget year 2012-2013 is contained in this legis- lation. h e's expressing skepticism. What is the point of the legislation — given that it's subject to change, it's unreliable and the minister him- self is expressing a great deal of caution about it?

What purpose does it serve, beyond rhetorical and political ones so that the government can wave it around and talk the language of avoiding deficits when the government has now run the two biggest deficits in the history of the province in 2003 and this year? Hon. C. Hansen: a s i said earlier, i think that if governments find it necessary to run deficits because of very unusual global economic circumstances which are beyond the control of a provincial government, it's incumbent upon them to come before this chamber and seek the specific permission of this chamber for those deficits. B.

Ralston: The minister mentions the best advice available in crafting this amendment. So can he specify…? i understand that the forecast council…. [1435] i haven't had a chance to review the comments on the forecast council that are contained in the enns report, which was released by the minister about two hours ago, but it came to my attention just after noon today. i wasn't afforded the opportunity of an advance notice that it was being released today, but we'll leave that aside.

Given the comments about the forecast council in the report, can the minister advise — when he says that the best advice of experts in crafting this amendment was consulted — who he consulted on this prediction that's contained in this amendment? Hon. C. Hansen: Just to correct the record, actually i tabled the enns report in this chamber at ten o'clock this morning.

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, September 24, 2009 809 The ministry, first of all, has some excellent internal staff who do modelling and projections around rev- enues based on information they collect from a variety of sources. i think we are very well served by the min- istry staff. i think one of the things that is pointed out in the budget review panel, both in 1999….

Their express view in the 1999 report was that the process of developing budgets needed to rely on that independent advice and should not be manipulated by the politicians. c ertainly, we have entrenched those principles as a government, and we rely on that information that we get. The offi- cials in the ministry, in turn, rely on a variety of sources, including the e conomic Forecast c ouncil as one of those sources. B.

Ralston: in crafting this amendment, the minister mentions the forecast council and speaks of the forecast council. but isn't there another way of manipulating — to use the minister's word — the results of the forecast council? That is by refusing to meet with them when they wish to meet with you to convey different informa- tion from that which they have previously conveyed a short time ago. isn't that the process that the minister engaged in prior to the February budget? Hon. C.

Hansen: i know the member has said that on several occasions, and i will tell the member right now that that is categorically false. i have never once, as the Minister of Finance, refused to meet with the e conomic Forecast c ouncil. e very time they have requested a meeting, i have met with them. B. Ralston: in crafting this amendment, has the min- ister relied entirely on the forecast council or on any other advice? Hon. C. Hansen: i will repeat what i have now already said two times in the very short course of this debate.

The ministry staff rely on a variety of sources of informa- tion, one of which is the economic Forecast c ouncil. Some of the other sources that i could point to, for example, would be…. a s the Ministry of energy, Mines and Petroleum r esources does a forecast in terms of what natural gas pricing will look at, they actually look at about 25 separate indicators that are private sector forecasts that the private sector itself uses when buying future contracts for future delivery of natural gas.

So that is a very good private sector–driven indicator in terms of what natural gas pricing may be next year, the year after or the year after that. it's not always accurate, as we have seen this year. We have seen natural gas, just since the end of May…. instead of climbing, as many forecasters were anticipating, it actually took a very sharp dive in price which, of course, had some significant impacts on our budget revenues.

There is a multitude of different pieces of informa- tion that we use in developing our revenue projections over the course of either the three-year fiscal plan or, in this case, the five-year outlook that we have put in the budget, which shows how we will return to a surplus within the five years.

Section 1 approved on division. on

section 2. B. Ralston: This

section amends the process by which the ministerial portion of pay that members get…. o bviously, ministers are paid more than ordinary members, and there's a separate remuneration for the ministerial portion of ministers' salary. This makes some changes to that. [1440] c an the minister explain what the effect of this amendment is and what impact this will have on the sal- aries of his colleagues in cabinet, if any? Hon. C. Hansen: The effect will be exactly the same as the policy and requirements that we have followed to date.

So if you go back to the original intent of the balanced budget and Ministerial a ccountability a ct, it was that ministers had to ensure that they were spend- ing within their ministries within approved allocations of funding.

We've seen lots of examples from previous decades where ministers overspent their approved allocations, and we felt there should be a penalty that would be imposed on the minister. in this case, it would be that all ministers have a 20 percent holdback on their minister - ial salaries, and they will only get half of that returned if government as a whole ends a fiscal year with a surplus or a balanced budget.

Ministers over this four-year period will, in fact, lose that half of their 20 percent holdback because we are not projecting that there will be a surplus at the end of those fiscal years. if by chance we can actually get back to sur- plus faster, then they would obviously get that half of the holdback returned. but in the case of the other half of the holdback, it is to ensure that there is a responsibility and an onus put on the ministers to ensure that they stay within their appropriation. in the past what we have done is reflect the appropria- tion in the main estimates. if through other approvals the minister gets the consent within the framework of appropriations that have been approved by this chamber, then they should still have the obligation to ensure that they don't overspend those appropriations. but for government, every time there is a supple- mental estimate, to come in and do a specific amend- ment was not in keeping with the original spirit of the act.

The original spirit of the act was to make sure that the incentive was there, not so that ministers had to stay

british c olumbia Debates810 t hursday, September 24, 2009 within the estimates as tabled with the spring budget, but to stay within what had been approved in accord- ance with votes that flow from this chamber. B.

Ralston: Perhaps the minister can just help me then. i had understood that the process of supplementary esti- mates was no longer going to be followed, and that the ministry was going to rely on contingencies to deal with unexpected and unforeseen overruns in budgets, such as a firefighting budget. t raditionally in the past, the way in which this sec- tion was dealt with was to bring before the chamber a number of supplementary estimates, adjust the budget of individual ministries accordingly and deem that the minister had therefore spent within the allocated limit by virtue of the fact that the supplementary estimate boosted the budget for that ministry. n o individual minister ever suffered a financial penalty because the supplementary estimate process wiped that away.

So given that change, at least as i understand it, per - haps the minister can guide me through it and make sure that i've understood it correctly. Hon. C. Hansen: What this amendment will pro- vide for is that ministers are still required to stay within appropriations that have the authority to this h ouse and to votes in this chamber. if they exceed that and they end the year and it shows that their ministry has spent more than has been formally approved, then they will not receive the remaining half of that holdback after public accounts are tabled.

So this provides for appropriations, approvals that would flow as a result of the main estimates. it would be approvals that would flow as a result of any supple- mental estimates which — while we have no intention of bringing in supplemental estimates at this point; there are none planned — they would still technically be authorized or available to government until such time as we are back into surplus again. [1445] The third area where funds can be appropriated or provided for, for a minister would be through contin- gencies.

That's a perfectly appropriate way for govern- ments to allocate funds that may be over and above what had been anticipated. Then the fourth area is with regard to statutory authority. So in areas such as the emergency programs or forest fire fighting, for example, there is approval that flows from votes that have been taken in this chamber to provide for the necessary spending authority in the case of those statutory appropriations. B. Ralston: a gain, just so that i understand this.

The example of the Ministry of Forests and r ange is a good one. t ypically, despite the attempt to estimate what the forest-fire-fighting budget might be in any given year, this year was a very dramatic overrun of that budget, obviously, given the fire conditions that were out there. h ow that has been dealt with in the past is through the process of supplementary estimates, as i understand it. That's the way it came before the chamber, as i under - stand it. The minister now refers to statutory authority.

So in the example that i've given to the Minister of Forests and r ange, the statutory authority would be what — as opposed to a supplementary estimate? Hon. C. Hansen: t o correct the impression that the member has, in the case of forest-fire-fighting budgets, that is not provided through supplemental estimates. We recognize — and it's the principle that was…. it was approved by this h ouse when the statutory authority was provided. When a forest fire breaks out, we have to go in and fight it, especially if it's obviously threatening communities or people or significant infrastructure.

The legislation provides the authority for government to spend what is necessary to fight forest fires, and it does not require a specific appropriation, either through main estimates or through supplemental estimates. B.

Ralston: Just again on this section. is the minister aware at this point — given that in the unusual circum- stances of this year being an election year, we're well along in the budget year for which we're proposing the budget as opposed to the process that's ordinarily fol- lowed where the budget is adopted in the spring — of any likelihood that any individual minister will be seek- ing authority to bring supplementary estimates before the h ouse? Hon. C. Hansen: n o.

Section 2 approved. on

section 3. B. Ralston: This is an amendment to

section 6 of the balanced budget and Ministerial a ccountability a ct, which adds a new subsection, (1.2), and that's referred to in the

section we just passed. c an the minister describe the effect of making this amendment by adding this subsection? Hon. C. Hansen: This amendment is just in the inter- est of more transparency and accountability. it's actually interesting. We were discussing this on the date that the budget review panel report was tabled. While this isn't sort of something specific from the panel's deliberations, it's certainly in keeping with the kinds of recommenda- tions that come from the panel. This does provide that if there is supplementary esti- mates used at any time in the future, along with the

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, September 24, 2009 811 tabling of that legislation, we need to provide for a state- ment of the revised minister's accountabilities that would hence be the target that the minister would have to stay within if the supplemental estimates were approved.

Section 3 approved. on

section 4. B.

Ralston: The minister explained this in his intro- duction at second reading — that this was to accom- modate the o lympics. i'm sure there'll be some public interest and certainly interest among members. [1450] Working back, then, when would be the proposed date of the Speech from the Throne? i understand that the minister also mentioned that he expected there would be an opportunity to deal with the budget briefly in March, and then there would be a further adjournment of the h ouse to accommodate the Paralympic Games. in the interests of informing members of the h ouse and those members of the public who might be inter - ested, how does this then look as a timetable for the conduct of the main government business in the spring — the Speech from the Throne and the budget debate?

Hon. C. Hansen: The only one i can speak to is the budget date itself, which is what's reflected in this par - ticular amendment. Through the Government h ouse l eader or the Premier, i'm sure there will be appropriate decisions made regarding the date of the throne speech and with regard to the spring sitting dates and the spring sitting calendar.

Section 4 approved. on

section 5. B. Ralston: This is an amendment proposed to sec- tion 10.

This amendment changes the date on which the quarterly report can be tabled. is there any wish or appe- tite, given the timetable that quarterly reports are given, to consider more frequent reporting? c ertainly, in what the minister has described as the unusual circumstances of the last year, it's my view that the public, in the budget process and an ability to under- stand declines in government revenue, would have been assisted by more frequent reporting. a s i understand it, in the Parliament of c anada the Department of Finance reports monthly. is there any appetite on the part of the minister or his ministry to consider more frequent reporting?

Hon. C. Hansen: This amendment actually provides for the authority to table the third quarterly report two days later than would normally have been the deadline for that. So the legislation currently provides for it being tabled not later than February 28. This allows us the additional two days so that it can be tabled along with the budget, which is the normal practice in this h ouse over the last eight years.

There is a considerable amount of work that goes into the preparation of the quarterly reports. i'm sure, as the member appreciates, there is a lot of detail that is pulled together for that report, and it is actually very time-con- suming to do that. a t present we certainly feel that the quarterly reports are adequate. i can't say for certain that the budget r eview Panel deliberated on the specific question that the member has asked, but certainly in their report they have not made any recommendations to change what is our current practice.

Section 5 approved. on

section 6. B. Ralston: a s the minister, i'm sure, is aware, and i'm sure he's prepared to answer this question, Mr. l oukidelis, who is the independent information and Privacy c ommissioner, a legislative officer, has provided a letter on these proposed c ontinuing c are a ct amend- ments. i believe those are in this

section and the next section. h e says in his letter dated September 22, 2009…. i know it's addressed to the Minister of h ealth Services, but i'm assuming the minister is prepared to answer this question. if not, i'd be prepared to stand down briefly for the appropriate staff support, if that's necessary. Firstly, he's concerned about the broad and vague wording of the provisions of sections 6 and 7 of bill 2, and we're dealing with

section 6 now.

"a greater preci- sion is surely possible and desirable." h is second what he describes as his main concern is: "The government is proposing to use these amendments to authorize the collection, use and disclosure of sensi- tive health and financial information of continuing-care clients and their family members in a way that fails to use an existing statutory vehicle that would enable the necessary flow of information while appropriately pro- tecting privacy." h e goes on at some length to talk about the e-h ealth (Personal h ealth information and Protection of Privacy) a ct, which he stresses he's been supportive of. [1455] Given the concerns that are raised by the information c ommissioner about the vagueness of the drafting of these sections and his concern that an existing legisla- tive mechanism isn't being used, which would better protect the privacy of those clients of continuing-care services, can the minister respond to the concerns that have been raised by the commissioner?

british c olumbia Debates812 t hursday, September 24, 2009 Hon. C. Hansen: i know that the Minister of h ealth Services was going to join us for this portion of the dis- cussion on this act. i think we've got to this

section a little bit faster than we had originally anticipated. i guess for a detailed response, i may have to defer to my colleague. a s far as a high-level response, we certainly are anx- ious to make sure that the privacy issues are properly addressed. This type of provision is in keeping with other initiatives like this which we have undertaken, where we're required to get access to income informa- tion from r evenue c anada. it is my understanding that this

section has been worded accordingly. For a more detailed response, i may have to wait until the Minister of h ealth Services is here. The Chair: if the committee would like, we can wait for five minutes for the Minister of h ealth Services to arrive, if he's scheduled to arrive. B.

Ralston: Thank you to the c hair for that suggestion. i think it's a matter of sufficient public concern, given that the commissioner thought it appropriate to write this letter, that we, with all due respect to the minister, get a more detailed response. i know he's understand- ably not prepared to answer that. it's more properly the province of the h ealth Minister. Perhaps we could stand down and wait for the h ealth Minister to arrive. The Chair: The committee will recess for about five minutes until the Minister of h ealth Services can join us.

The committee recessed from 2:57 p.m. to 2:59 p.m. [c. t revena in the chair.] B. Ralston: i will repeat my question for the benefit of the Minister of h ealth, who has kindly joined us to deal with this

section of the bill. My question is based on the letter that's directed to the Minister of h ealth Services dated September 22. h e expresses a concern about sections 6 and 7. We're dealing with

section 6 at the moment. h is concerns expressed in his letter were two. First, he was concerned about the broad and vague wording of the provisions.

"a greater precision is surely possible and desirable." [1500] h is second concern, which he describes as his main concern, is: "The government is proposing to use these amendments to authorize the collection, use and disclosure of sensitive health and financial information of continuing care clients, and their family members, in a way that fails to use an existing statutory vehicle that would enable the necessary flow of information while appropriately protecting privacy." h e's referring there to the e-h ealth (Personal h ealth information and Protection of Privacy) a ct. h e stresses that he's been supportive of that act, and his suggestion to the minister and to the government is: "For these reasons" — i'm quoting from page 3 — "i urge you to withdraw these cca" — c ontinuing c are a ct — "amendments and instead use the robust, balanced statutory provisions of the e-h ealth a ct, which offer a proper legislative framework for the sharing of personal…information necessary to verify income for subsidy purposes and for minimum reporting requirements." So given those comments by the commissioner, i'd ask that the Minister of h ealth Services please respond.

Hon. K. Falcon: The regulation that allows and gov- erns us to undertake the information and gather the information that the member is referring to under sec- tion 5 has actually been in place and been part of the continuing-care regulation for many, many years — in fact, probably about a decade. in fact, the information that we are putting in place here actually mirrors what has been under the health insurance act for many dec- ades — probably at least 30 years.

So what we are seeking here is actually just a confirm- ation of the statutory authority to back up the regulatory authority that's been in place for many, many years. This clarifies that that regulatory authority, which we've been undertaking for many years, is now backed up by the appropriate statutory authority. i think that was a gap that was identified by the legal drafters, or the legal people, in government.

The intent of this legislation is to close that gap and make sure that we are consistent with the exact same method of asking and acquiring that information as we do, as i say, under the h ospital insurance a ct and under other acts, like information required for shelter allowances or for assisted-living spaces too. B. Ralston: i appreciate the response, but i note in his letter that the commissioner says — and i'm look- ing at the bottom of page 2…. h e seems to be referring to other statutes — i think one of the statutes that the minister is referring to. "i acknowledge that

section 7(1) of the h ospital insurance a ct authorizes the ministry to collect personal information regarding the delivery of acute care services. This provision predates region- alization of the health care system and enactment of the e -h ealth act.

"in my view, this provision should be repealed in favour of designating the existing discharge abstract database as a health information act, thus subjecting it to the protections now offered by the e-h ealth a ct." h e goes on to say: "Section 7(1) of the h ospital insurance a ct should not, in other words, be seen as a precedent that supports the cca amend- ments described above." So while the minister says that he's seeking statutory authority to confirm what has been, i guess, regulatory practice, it would seem that the point of the commis- sioner is that the e-h ealth a ct has superseded those other acts. h e's offering or suggesting that the minister consider making amendments that are consistent with

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, September 24, 2009 813 the e-h ealth a ct, which seems to me, on the face of it — not having the access to the wide range of capable senior public servant advice that the minister has access to — that that's a reasonable suggestion. i suppose my concern is that this is the one opportun- ity that we have here in the l egislature to address these provisions. [1505] if they're simply passed, the likelihood or the incen- tive — in the busy

schedule of the minister, the cabinet, the government and the l egislature — that this problem that's identified by the information c ommissioner will ever be addressed, i suppose, is unlikely. i'd like the minister to consider the mild admonition and suggestion of the information c ommissioner and seriously consider whether he's prepared to entertain amendments that would address the problem that he raises. Hon. K.

Falcon: o bviously, i think it goes without saying, but it's sometimes better to say it — that the privacy and protection of personal information has got to be the utmost concern in the Ministry of h ealth Services. a nd it is. The issue here, where we have a bit of an honest dis- agreement with the commissioner yet are still willing to work with the commissioner….

The nature of the honest disagreement we have here is the fact that the intent of the e-health legislation is to focus on the databases that are related to the electronic health record. it was never the intention of the e-health legislation to take all the databases within h ealth and make them part of that electronic health record. That is something that we have expressed to the commissioner.

We've made it clear to the commissioner that we're willing to work with the commissioner, but we have underscored the fact that the e-h ealth a ct was created, as i say, to implement the electronic health record. it certainly was not the intention, nor would it be appro- priate in the view of the considered staff of my Ministry of h ealth, that every data system which contained health information should be made part of a health information bank. B.

Ralston: Well, surely the focus here should be, as the commissioner has expressed it, on continuing-care clients and their family members. i understand in gen- eral terms what the minister is saying, but why wouldn't the provisions of the e-h ealth a ct be brought into oper- ation to protect the privacy in the way that the person who knows a lot about it and is delegated and asked as an independent officer of the l egislature to provide guidance on it…? Why wouldn't we simply follow that advice? i note in the e -h ealth a ct at

section 4: "a designation order may authorize the collection and use of personal health information only for one or more of the following purposes…(

c) to identify a person who is providing health services; (

d) to prevent or manage chronic conditions, at the individual or population level; (

e) to facilitate…." it goes on. There are a number of categories. c ontinuing-care cli- ents would seem to fall broadly within 4(

a) probably. Then: "(a)…an individual who needs or is receiv- ing health services." it would seem to me that that falls within the potential ambit of the e-h ealth a ct. i'm not quite sure why the minister would resist on this point. Hon. K.

Falcon: e ver since the c ontinuing c are a ct was brought into place in 1997, this has been the prac- tice that has been undertaken in the Ministry of h ealth through, actually, governments — not just our own but previous governments. [1510] one of the reasons why the family members are men- tioned in there is that in order for the government to (1) determine eligibility and (2) determine what the indi- vidual should be paying, they often need to determine whether, for example, the individual is being looked after by family members currently. or is it a situation where family members live 5,000 miles away? a ll of that kind of information, which we have been utilizing and have been since 1997 when the c ontinuing c are a ct came into place, is information that — in the case of the legislative changes being proposed here — will be statutorily backed up.

That really is the issue here. The regulatory author - ity has always provided us the ability to do this, but the legal drafters determined that there's a gap between the statutory authority and the regulatory authority.

This closes that gap. t o the issue of the information and Privacy c om- missioner. c ertainly, we always have to listen carefully to what the information and Privacy c ommissioner is suggesting. but the suggestion that the commissioner is making — that all of this information should form part of the e-health legislation…. in the view of the professional civil servants within the ministry, that is not viewed to be practical. n or is it viewed to be consistent with the past practices that have taken place, as i say, since this legislation came into effect — and indeed prior to that.

We will continue to work with the commissioner and let the commissioner know that we have a sincere but honest disagreement about the direction he wishes to go. The member is correct to point out that the letter we received was on September 22. o bviously, that is not necessarily time for us to conclude and continue the dis- cussions we need to have, because they are important discussions for the purposes of the Ministry of h ealth Services.

british c olumbia Debates814 t hursday, September 24, 2009 B.

Ralston: a gain referring to the letter, page 2, he says: "on February 27, 2009, a ministerial directive was issued by your predecessor" — the h on., and then he gives the name of the h ealth Minister — "compelling health authorities to disclose this personal health infor - mation in individually identifiable form. it is apparent that the cca amendments are intended to authorize this indirect collection of personal health information by the ministry and, thus, supersede the ministerial directive, the statutory authority for which is not apparent." That seems to be a relatively serious suggestion. i'm wondering if the minister might take the advice of the senior public servants who are there and respond to that suggestion, which is troubling. [1515] Hon.

K. Falcon: The member is correct that the former h ealth Minister did indeed send a directive to the health authorities setting out minimum reporting requirements. That was as a direct result of a report that was undertaken by the a uditor General on the home and community care sector. The recommendation of the a uditor General was that the ministry should do exactly that — have minimum reporting requirements that are available to the Ministry of h ealth.

The directive was sent out in that regard. o bviously, we have, on the one hand, the a uditor General making it quite clear what he expects from the Ministry of h ealth Services. W e've got the Privacy commissioner, another independent statutory authority of the l egislature, who has a different view. So this is not an easy issue, but it is one that we are attempting to work out. in this case, what i can assure the member of is that what we are putting in place is nothing new.

We are actually going to continue doing exactly what we have done. in fact, i can tell the member with some confi- dence that in the decades that we have undertaken this procedure of dealing with this information, we've not had a complaint that i am aware of. We will continue to ensure that we look after that infor- mation in a manner that is respectful of people's privacy while, at the same time, working through some of the com- peting demands of different officers of the legislature. B.

Ralston: i appreciate the minister's point about reconciling competing interests, but i would respectfully suggest that the next paragraph in the letter endeavours to reconcile the need of health authorities to have infor- mation to support evaluation and planning, yet offer protection for personally identifiable health informa- tion. indeed, that's what he says in the letter.

"information is needed in order to support evaluation and planning, including as regards continuing care services, but i am concerned that the minimum reporting requirements, supported either by the ministerial directive or the cca amendments, would compel disclosure of personally identifiable health infor- mation without the protections offered by the e-health a ct. "i strongly believe the e -h ealth a ct, not cca amendments or ministerial directive, should be used to acquire personal health information for planning and evaluation purposes.

The privacy and transparency afforded by the e -h ealth a ct are needed here as well.

"Further, as i've previously told ministry officials, personal health information acquired for planning purposes should be provided in linkable form and de-identified, thus reducing pri- vacy risks while still enabling planning and evaluation activities." That would appear, in my view, to address the concern that the minister raises about conflicting directions being raised by two separate independent officers. h e also goes on to say: "The ministry is, by pursuing these cca amendments, resorting in a piecemeal approach that avoids the transparency and privacy protections offered to the e -h ealth a ct. it may be argued that designation of health information banks is complex" — i think that's the argument the minister was making — "but no evidence to support such a claim has ever been offered.

The tools are there under the e-h ealth a ct, and i would urge you to ensure they are used, rather than the expedient of piecemeal amendments to other statutes." That's fairly self-explanatory. a gain, i'd invite the minister's comment. These sec- tions of the letter appear to address the concern that the minister raises. Hon. K. Falcon: The member opposite is right to recog- nize those concerns that were identified in the September 22 letter, but i can't underscore more that we have a real fundamental concern with the recommendation that the freedom-of-information commissioner is suggesting.

The intent of the e-health legislation, as i say, was to focus on databases that were related to the electronic health record. This was never the intention to try and incorporate every other database in the Ministry of h ealth Services. i would say to the member that this is not a prob- lem that i can tell you i am willing to fix on the floor of this l egislature, because i do believe there's an import- ant principle here that we have to make clear to the information c ommissioner.

We may ultimately end up agreeing to disagree, but nevertheless we are not willing, certainly at this time, to make a decision to include it as part of the e-health legislation, which was never con- templated to include other databases — including the ones of which we speak. [1520] B.

Ralston: a gain to turn to the letter, it would seem — and the minister can correct me if i'm wrong — that the kind of information that's being gathered is infor - mation that would augment the personal health record, if i'm not mistaken. but the minister can correct me if i'm wrong. i'm reading again from the letter: "i'm aware that the ministry has been collecting clinical information of indi- vidual continuing-care clients of health authorities in identifiable form, including information disclosing their

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, September 24, 2009 815 medications, medical diagnoses and cognitive states, for the purposes of program monitoring and performance evaluation." h is concern is that that should engage the e-health privacy provisions. Subject to the minister's comment, it would seem that that would form part of the individual continuing-care patient's personal health record. i'm not quite sure why the minister is making the objection he does that this was not intended to be included when the e-health legislation was passed. When i look at the e-h ealth a ct and review it, it's certainly very, very broad. in

section 4, as to what a designation order might apply to, there are, i think, over 20 areas within the system where it's possible to make a designa- tion order authorizing the collection and use of personal health information. Perhaps the minister could respond to those comments. Hon. K. Falcon: i do think it is important to recog- nize the kind of information that is being asked for here. it's information of a financial nature to determine income levels of the individuals so that the appropriate rate can be applied to those individuals.

We fundamen- tally disagree that that kind of private, personal financial information should form part of your personal health record. We just fundamentally disagree with the com- missioner with that regard. r emember what the e-health legislation was all about. That was making sure that doctors would have access to your personal health record so that it would be easier for them, when you're visiting different hospital rooms or dif- ferent doctors' offices or what have you, to have access to your personal health record. it is not there to allow them to have access to your personal financial information.

We just have a fundamental point of departure here with the freedom-of-information and privacy commis- sioner. We will continue to work with the commissioner, but we're not prepared to go along with his recommen- dation that this information should form part of your personal health record. B. Ralston: The minister mentions personal financial information.

What the commissioner says here is — and i'll repeat it: "i am aware the ministry has been collecting clinical information of individual continuing-care cli- ents of health authorities in identifiable form, including information disclosing their medications, medical diag- noses and cognitive states, for the purposes of program monitoring and performance evaluation." is the minister saying that the commissioner is wrong — that that information is not being collected, because he refers only to financial information?

This is what is in the letter that the commissioner has prepared and provided to the minister. i want to clarify that. is the commissioner wrong that information in that form is not being collected by the ministry? Hon. K. Falcon: n o, i wouldn't say that the commis- sioner is wrong, but i would say that the commissioner….

We believe we need to be able to provide him with the information to understand that we have data-sharing agreements in place with each of the health authorities that very specifically define the collection, transmission and use of personal information. i would remind the member that this is actually a function and a process that has been in place since, in fact, the c ontinuing c are a ct came into place in 1997 — without complaint, i might add. in fact, prior to the c ontinuing c are a ct, there was also a similar transmis- sion of information. [1525] i think that at the end of the day, we'll continue to work with the commissioner, but we do have a disagreement with the commissioner in terms of his recommendation in this regard.

B. Ralston: Just so i'm clear. i'm not sure if the Minister of h ealth has had a chance to meet with the commis- sioner yet, given that it's only a couple of days ago.

That may not be the case, and that's understandable. i'm going back again to his letter — because the min- ister seems to be focused on financial information — on the first page, where he expresses his main concern as: "The government is proposing, through these amend- ments, to authorize the collection, use and disclosure of sensitive health and financial information of continu- ing-care clients and their family members." is the minister's position that these amendments are only to facilitate the collection of financial information and that there's no collection of health information?

That certainly seems to be contrary to what is being said here. h e offers a ready-made solution, the legisla- tive solution that exists, and is recommending it to the minister. is that what the minister is saying — that he is content with what the commissioner describes as piece- meal amendments, since it is only financial information that's being collected? Hon. K. Falcon: Member, in addition to financial information, of course there is medical medication infor- mation, etc., that would need to be gathered to make the appropriate assessment for the individual.

That is a prac- tice that has been carried on for many, many, many years in british c olumbia. in terms of meeting with the freedom-of-information commissioner or staff, i can assure the member that not only have meetings taken place; there was a meeting that took place as recently as yesterday. There are further meetings that are scheduled as early as tomorrow, and that will continue. o ur staff will, and always does, try to work with the information c ommissioner to ensure we are doing everything we can to protect the privacy of individuals.

british c olumbia Debates816 t hursday, September 24, 2009 a gain, i want to emphasize that what we are doing here is actually just confirming the statutory authority behind a regulatory authority that has been in place for many, many years in this province — with, i would argue, very great success and without complaint. B.

Ralston: Well, i'm going to conclude shortly on this area, because i think we've had a good exchange on this problem. it seems to me that the minister seems to be unwilling to acknowledge or at least agree, perhaps, with the point the commissioner is making that whatever past practi- ces have been, it has certainly been superseded by more elevated concerns about privacy and by the fact that the e-h ealth a ct and that legislative mechanism exist to balance the concerns he raises. i'm sure there will be further discussions, and i'd invite the minister — if he should change his mind or, as a result of discussions, come to agree with the commis- sioner — that the appropriate amendments come back before the h ouse, if that's required or, if it can be done by regulation under the e-h ealth a ct, that that be done expeditiously.

Perhaps on that point i'll conclude on

section

Section 6 approved on division. on

section 7. B. Ralston: Just for the record, we had discussion on the previous section, so i won't ask any further ques- tions. but my comment and objection remain the same.

Section 7 approved on division. on

section 8. B. Ralston: c an the minister confirm that this amend- ment is an amendment of the

section that was amended just several months ago? [1530] [l. r eid in the chair.] Hon. C. Hansen: it is simply an amendment to the

section that was amended in February, to give the member a direct answer.

Section 8 approved on division. on

section 9. B. Ralston: This proposed amendment amends the Financial a dministration a ct to authorize private members on the government side to sit as members of t reasury board. Perhaps the minister can clarify for me, because i understand that the practice in the past has been that private members have sat as members of the t reasury board, both with this government and with previous ones. is the purpose of the amendment to authorize those members to be members of t reasury board as voting members? is that the purpose of the amendment? Hon. C. Hansen: Y es, it is. B.

Ralston: c an the minister explain why that's necessary, given that the practice in the past was that private members sat as members of the t reasury board and presumably had voice but no vote — provided input, participated in the discussion. Why was it felt necessary to formally authorize them to be able to vote? i suppose my concern — i think i expressed this at second reading — is that while individual ministers are accountable through the legislative process and through question period and estimates, although not necessarily as members of t reasury board per se, a private member doesn't….

There's not the same level of accountability, since there's no mechanism to question them. it does appear to be a little bit anomalous in terms of accountability. can the minister comment on that, please? Hon. C. Hansen: Private members have participated in t reasury board over the last number of years, and because they were not full members, one might say, the member is correct. They would not have a vote, but they would also not be able to be considered in making sure that quorum was present at a meeting, for example.

Members of t reasury board who are members of executive council are accountable to this chamber in their specific ministerial roles, but they are not account- able to this chamber as a result of their participation in t reasury board. That accountability is through the Minister of Finance, who chairs t reasury b oard. [1535] B.

Ralston: is the purpose, then, to accommodate the more bureaucratic requirement, i suppose, of making it easier to attain quorum? a s i understand, the intent of the legislation is that even if private members were members of t reasury board and there to enable the quorum to be achieved, the majority of voting members would still have to be members of executive council in order for the t reasury board to be properly constituted and to be in a position to make decisions. Hon. C. Hansen: a s is currently the case, 50 percent of the members of t reasury board would constitute a quorum.

This would mean that the majority of members of t reasury board, under this amendment, would have to be members of executive council and 50 percent of the members would constitute a quorum.

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, September 24, 2009 817 B. Ralston: i'm not sure it's a major point, but then could you be in the s

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H0924pm-05
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H0924pm 05
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	3af36026a7af3e03e948effcc4f0603d8ad91f37

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