LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 12 February, 1981 Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - FITNESS, RECREATION AND SPORT MR. CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (Virden): I call the committee to order. We are here to consider the Estimates of Fitness, Recreation and Sport. The Honourable Minister. HON. ROBERT (Bob) BANMAN (La Verendrye): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a brief opening statement. It is my pleasure to present the Estimates of my department following the second year of operations as the Department of Fitness, Recreation and Sport.

We believe it has been a rewarding year with a number of achievements and I am happy to present the Estimates here tonight. As stated on numerous occasions, the provisions of recreation opportunities depend largely on the interests and efforts of municipalities, community organizations, and the provincial sports and recreation agencies. I am pleased to report that we enjoyed a strong working relationship with the municipalities and the community and provincial groups, with the mutual goal of encouraging Manitobans to be active in their recreation.

We have seen benefits to people engaged in informal activities like cross-country skiing, boating and jogging, the more intensive sport competitions, the social activities, and the senior citizen clubs and programs for the disabled. Major programs conducted by our Recreation and Fitness

section have been the awarding of the Sports Facilities '80 Program, which saw something like 343 grants totalling in excess of $2 million, which were used for the renovation and upgrading of facilities in areas throughout the province. The program, as I announced the other day, will be along very much the same lines with the exception that the funds will now be able to be used for recreation facilities other than the arenas and curling rinks; they will be able to be used for community centres and community halls.

Another program which I wish to bring to your attention is the District Recreation Grant which allows municipalities to combine their efforts and enlist the support of school divisions to hire a full­ time recreation director. In 1981-82, we plan to bring the total number of districts to 27, encompassing 49 rural municipalities, 25 towns, 24 villages, 26 school divisions, and two local government districts. Special projects managed by the Recreation

Section this past year were the Frontier Games, the Bird's Hill Day Camp, Northern Water Safety, the Manitoba Marathon, Senior Olympics, Equipment Grants to Remote Communities, the Energy Assistance Program, the Corporate Challenge. Fitness programs included instructor training, fitness studies and workshops, and a Fit for Fun Program to encourage people to participate.

The Sports Injury Centre again offered treatment to registered athletes and the summer program which we hope to offer this year in co-operation with the Department of Labour and Manpower, we anticipate that some 75 students will assist in projects throughout the province and will receive valuable experience in leadership training. The department has continued its funding to the sports associations to assist in program development, coach training, competitions and special projects. In addition, the department has assigned funds to all regions for their recreation and sports programs.

ManPian and Athlete Aid Program for our most talented athletes, coaches and officials, allocated about $100,000 this year to 180 individuals from 38 sports. This program will continue again in 1981. The Order of Sports Excellence was established in 1980 to pay tribute to the athletes winning provincial, national and international events. A special medal was pressed and eight gold international medals, 127 silver national medals and 866 bronze provincial medals have been presented this year.

Young athletes in 18 sports are presently preparing for the '81 Canada Summer Games which will be held in Thunder Bay in August. Funds have been assigned to the sports associations to assist them in the selection and training of these athletes.

My department has also been pleased with the co­ operation of the Manitoba Medical Association, the Physiotherapy Association, the Manitoba Chiropractics Association, the Athletes Training Association and the Faculty of Medicine, the MSF and the High School Athletic Association, for the work and assistance they have provided in the establishment of the Sports Medicine Council.

We hope to work with them with regards to receiving advice from this particular body on matters of training methods, safety and other matters related to sports medicine In closing, I wanted to pay particular tribute to the many agencies, the many volunteers in the Province of Manitoba that really make amateur sport work. I believe it's not a government department or anybody in government that can really make these things happen.

It's the thousands and thousands of volunteers and people who donate of their time and energy and resources to make the amateur sport field a field of recreation and fitness work in the province. So to them I would say a heartfelt thank you and I would also at this time like to recognize the contribution that my staff have made with regards to the development and energies and talents they have displayed and exerted throughout the year. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. LAURENT L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I would like to thank the Minister for his remarks.

I must say, and I think the main thing is that we've got to decide how we're going to deal with this and it's always been very difficult in this department. It's always very interesting, but difficult because of the varied and different groups that are charged with 629

Thursday, 12 February, 1981 looking after fitness, recreation and sports in this province, and the Minister has certainly accepted that, because he paid respect to the medical profession, the Sports Federation, the Sports Medicine and so on and the volunteers, and his last words were that the government alone wouldn't go very far, that it is all the volunteers and all the people that are involved in this that makes this go. Now I don't know if he can do that. I think there is only one way to save time, and I say save time because we could look at this department and it shouldn't take too long.

There is no reason to prolong this, like maybe some other departments But I think there's only one way. We would have to have at least an idea of the overall picture before we start dealing with any specifics. What I mean by that, I would like to have the total dollars that are spent on sports, fitness and recreation and also the different groups. Now what I mean by that, I would like to know first of all, we are looking at the estimates. But if we just look at the department estimates without discussing anything else, we won't have an idea of the complete picture.

There will be something left behind and somebody else will be looking after that, so I was hoping, and unfortunately it was decided just a day or so ago that the Minister would go, in fact I think he was supposed to be in the House and I wanted to discuss this with him, but what I would like to see right now is, I have in front of me the estimates, I would like to know what the revenue is from the Manitoba Lottery Commission.

Of course, we are going to deal with the lottery, but that could be done in general or the lottery itself the running of the lottery somewhere else, but now I'm talking about just the revenue and then the breakup of this revenue, what went to culture, what went to where, and then the breakups, so therefore the total amount that will be spent by the government because I don't think that's shown in here at all.

There are some programs, the Minister even referred to one of the programs about the capital program which is on lotteries, so I would like to know how much money comes from the lottery; I would like to know if there are any trust funds left or if that money is gone; I would like to know what happens to the revenue of the Boxing and Wrestling Commission, and, if that hasn't been touched? If the Minister did the same as I did when I was there, there must be quite a few bucks there because we were planning and this and I imagine the Minister's planning also, but there might be a certain amount.

Then I would like to know the revenue, the share that goes through sports of tt·,e lottery, the Western Canada-Manitoba distributor and the one-fourth share that goes to the Sports Federation. Now, if I add that we'd have an idea of the total picture, the amount spent, and then the Minister could then in some remarks then say, well this is what the government is trying to do, through our Estimates this is the responsibility that we take.

Now through lottery revenue, through the share that goes to the government we know that this goes up and down, so we're not tying ourselves up on things that had to be done. !t might be the frills or the excess and so on, we would use the money for that and then the Minister could tell us that the Sports Federation, when it accepted to be a partner to distribute the lottery, and therefore benefit from that, accepted these responsibilities.

Now if that could be done I think that we could proceed very fast, but if the Minister would insist that we start dealing with that, it would have be very very flexible, we'd have to come back and so on because there is no way that we could get the true picture with that. For the future maybe we should have a statement like this with maybe ... the Minister gave me a stack of paper and there are only two of us here and I don't know when I'll be able to read that and still ask questions. While I'm reading that it will be all finished by then before I can ask the questions.

I'm not faulting the Minister, I'm just trying to find a way where we can agree and try to do this in the best possible way. MR. CHAIRMAN: I think that if the Committee would allow me to pass from 1(

a) to 1(

b) it would still covers the whole waterfront, because the rules do state that the Minister gives his statement and we've always allowed one critic and then go on. So, 1(b) - the Honourable Minister. MR. BANMAN: Okay, well maybe we can start off, I haven't got an all-encompassing sheet exactly, but we'll go down. First of all, starting with the Boxing and Wrestling Commission and the member will remember that last year we made a change in the Act of the Boxing and Wrestling Commission.

It used to be that the funds were held in trust by the Minister of Finance for the Boxing and Wrestling Commission and really there was never very much done with the funds and I think it has built up to the point where it is in excess of $60,000.00. Last year in the Legislature, and I believe it was a Statute Law Amendment Bill, we said that those funds could be spent by the Boxing and Wrestling subject to ministerial approval on the development of amateur boxing and amateur wrestling on that sport. (Interjection)- That's right.

Plus it also allows them to get the interest on the money that was being held by Finance, which was not - (Interjection)- That's right. And that was a bone of contention because with today's interest rates it amounted to $60,000, you're looking at maybe $9,000 interest. With regard to that, there has been I believe, and I'm talking from memory, I haven't seen the final statement now . . . MR. DESJARDINS: Would it be easier to get it over with if I have a few comments on what the Minister said about boxing and wrestling. All right, this is just suggestion now.

I know this was suggested to us when I was the Minister responsible and I was waiting for more than that.

These are professional sports, and I felt that instead of spending that money just for the development of those two sports - it is related, it is the same sport but that's all - that is money that should accrue to the Commission or the government, as long as we make sure they throw it back into amateur sport, and I would hope that some time in the future when this comes up again, I don't know if this is something that's going to last forever, I would like to see that money earmarked for the development of sports, but not necessarily just those two sports.

You know these sports are getting it from the general revenue; they are getting money from the 630

Thursday, 12 February, 1981 general revenue, some of it comes from amusement tax at hockey games. You don't say that just the tax at a hockey game will go to develop hockey and so on. So it's just the thought that I would like to mention at this time. MR. BANMAN: We could deal then next with the amount of lotteries funds which we are projecting spending, and the member will be aware that it varies because most of the stuff is done later on by Order-in-Council as you move through it, would be about $1.5 million roughly. MR. DESJARDINS: Is that the total or is that the share for your department MR.

BANMAN: That would be the total that would be spent on, oh things like grants to sports associations -(Interjection)- This is what we will be spending in the department. MR. DESJARDINS: Could the Minister just round figure to me, can the Minister seeing that he's responsible for the Manitoba Lottery Commission, also give us an idea of the share this year, the projected share for what they have on hand of the total thing, and how much will go to Cultural, you know just round it off and give me an idea? What is the portion, the percentage that is kept by the Minister? MR.

BANMAN: We are anticipating for this year, for the year ending March 31st this year, of having revenues from lottery sales of $3.6 million. That is split up, two-thirds to my department and one-third to the Cultural Affairs, so that would mean that my department in this particular instance would get $2.4 million and Cultural would get $1.2 million. MR. DESJARDINS: Is there a further split now between Fitness, Recreation and so on now as accepted in the department, or are those just programs that are passed in Cabinet and that you decide? Could it be spent all for fitness, or all on capital projects.

I say that because originally there was a split between a certain amount for fitness, a certain amount for recreation, I think. MR. BANMAN: No, I think the Department of Cultural Affairs still earmarks some for historical resources and that, but the department here - (Interjection)- the figure is roughhly about 37 for sport and the rest would be for fitness. MR. DESJARDINS: There is no policy, just programs as needed. MR.

BANMAN: The policy, I guess, with regard to the split between the two departments, between Cultural and that, was established a number of years ago and the government has just carried on with that split, but we don't earmark X-number of dollars for Fitness, Recreation or Sports. MR. DESJARDINS: When we did decide on the split between culture and recreation, and fitness and amateur sports in those days, there was a further split because community recreation wasn't with fitness and amateur sports so they got part of that and then the fitness and amateur sports, so much for fitness, but I got the answer. MR.

BANMAN: The member would probably appreciate since - and I think something like that was going on before the two departments were brought together. In other words, the fitness and amateur sport was with the Department of Health, the other part, and 1 think that necessitated, because it was two different Departments might have necessitated a split. MR. DESJARDINS: We didn't decide by first of all which department wants the money, we decided where we want to spend the money. Some of it was in the Arts some of it was Culture, but anyway you have a mandate, we don't have to do it forever the same way.

I've got my answer, Mr Chairman. I have no criticism of that. MR. BANMAN: Further the Manitoba Sports Federation which became a partner of WL&D two years ago is a quarter partner in that particular operation. Last year I believe the funds received were in the neighborhood of $720,000.00. They have assumed the operation of the Sports Admin Centre and several other programs that the department was involved with before. The salary grants . . . MR. DESJARDINS: That's for the Administration Centre. MR. BANMAN: That's right. The salary grants, they've picked up the cost of leasing the building.

They also picked up the cost of postage and things like that. MR. DESJARDINS: In other words, all the sports . . . but no other programs. That's the only one that they accepted, they took away from the department plus any other programs that they might have. MR. CHAIRMAN: I just wonder if I could bring it to the Committee's attention, the gentleman behind is having trouble identifying who's who, so give the Chair enough time to recognize the member and also the Minister. We got into this problem the other day, one word answers back and forth.

Unless there is some voice detective downstairs, how are they ever really going to know, so just give the Chair time enough to recognize and make it clear to them. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1(b)(1) pass - the Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, that's the information that I was seeking. Now before we leave that then we can go with the department. Can we talk about the money spent by the Sports Federation? The Administration Centre, what is the latest on that, is there a budget, does the Minister have a budget for the Sports Federation?

The Minister has to approve that program, not necessarily decide or dictate but approve so there is no duplication to my understanding. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. BANMAN: At the time when we signed the original agreement with the Manitoba Sports Federation it was agreed that the Minister would okay and have the authority to look at the program 631

Thursday, 12 February, 1981 before they went ahead with it. We are in the process right now, and also there was a two-year renewal clause; sort of a two-year review if you want to call it, we are in the process now of going through that to see what they have in mind, what has happened to their cost as the member will appreciate there are several more sports governing bodies that have moved in there in the last little while, which means that there has been some additional space.

They have also moved out of what was the Ellice Avenue property, and moved into new facilities which have cost them an additional amount of money; 1 believe the rent in that new place is about, what is it $146,000 a year - in the neighbourhood of $140,000 a year, for something like about 15,000 square feet of space. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister give us an idea of the total amount spent on the Sports Administration Centre, that is total, for salary, for stamps, for rental and so on, out of that 700? MR. BANMAN: About $700,000.00. MR. DESJARDINS: Are you telling me, I want to make sure now, Mr.

Chairman, through you to the Minister, that out of approximately $720,000, which is the amount of money that the Sports Federation had to spend, that $700,000 was spent on the Administration Centre, that left them $20,000 for their administration, for paying their staff, and for any other programs that they had? MR. BANMAN: Then I guess without sort of having the exact details before me here right now, but what happened when the agreement was signed, they took over the responsibility for all the people that were on contract or whatever, working at the Sports Admin Centre.

In other words, they are paying those people now. Before, the department was paying them. MR. DESJARDINS: I have no problem with that, understand that. MR. BANMAN: From the rough figures I have here, their operating costs, the salaries for the sports administrators, for the different sports governing bodies and related things - there is something like 35 people involved on part-time or full-time - is something like $400,000 and the balance of $300,000 is for rental, supplies, security and all the other things. When we signed the agreement with them, we did not leave them very much room for general administration.

In other words, they took almost the whole amount that they were receiving from the lotteries in programming we were doing at present. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I am well aware, I know what the Administration Centre is all about. I am not questioning that, and I know that when they became partners, they accepted the responsibility to run that Administration Centre.

The question, and I want to make sure there is no misunderstanding, the Minister told us that the revenue, the money, and I don't think the Sports Federation has any other revenue than that, or very little, if any, and I stand to be corrected, but they received approximately $720,000, their share of one-fourth partnership, and the Minister claims in round figures that the whole thing - the Administration Centre - all the cost of running the Administration Centre, salaries and so on is approximately $700,000.00.

That means there would be $20,000 to run the administration of the Sports Federation, their salary, whatever they have, plus any other programs they have, and that to me doesn't seem right. MR. BANMAN: If I left that impression, that is wrong. That includes the MSF Executive Director and some of the things they do. That's within that figure. Because it's all in one complex, and I guess they've got some space in that particular complex like a lot of the client organizations do, so it's part of the whole operation. MR.

DESJARDINS: Yes, I can understand that, but my question was really, you see they had a Sports Federation before. They were conducting their own revenue. The government of the time was running the Sports Administration Centre. There was an agreement, and the Sports Federation became replaced by the Sports Advisory Committee, which worked with the government to spend more money, that amount of money on sports, but they took that over, but they also accepted the responsibility of running the Sports Administration Centre. That's exactly what I want to know.

I want to know what the Sports Federation is doing besides that Administration Centre? I would even accept that you say, well all right, so much money for the Sports Administration Centre and renting, that includes premises or space for the Sports Administration Centre, but I want to know then what the Manitoba Sports Federation is spending on their own staff, on administration, their own affairs, and also what other programs they have, because I want to see the overall programs in this department, or in fitness and amateur sport, and that was the reason for my question. MR.

BANMAN: Just before the final agreement was signed, the Manitoba Sports Federation was down to I think - one of the breweries was giving them some space, they were down to one secretary and one Executive Director who were being paid, and I think their operational costs at that time were in the neighbourhood of $4,000 a month. (lnterjection)­ That was sold. When we were discussing with them, they had a secretary and an Executive Director, and basically they were living from hand to mouth on the thing. -(Interjection)- That's right, that's right. They didn't have a big machine set up.

Right now - I could find out exactly - I think they're down to one Executive Director and two secretaries, and I think that's all that they themselves have with the group, and they're working on things like the Hall of Fame and some other things which the department isn't involved in. Basically, I know what the member is asking - is there $300,000 of programming that they've taken over and are doing? I can assure him that that is not what's happening. MR. DESJARDINS: Well, then I would like to have some comment on that. I'm quite surprised and a bit disappointed.

I think it was a hell of a deal for the government to get rid of the Sports Administration Centre, but it's the Sports Federation who were 632

Thursday, 12 February, 1981 jumping up and down, so happy when this deal was done, I think they got the short end of the stick. 1 think that what happened on that was that they took the responsibility from the government, they are running it, it's putting somebody else instead of just the administrator of the Centre, and then Sports Federation itself is doing very little. I thought they would be doing more, because their dream was to run certain programs. They started programs, they were bailed out by your government, and they were bailed out by our government.

For instance, the Sports Injury Centre and those kinds of things we had to take over, and then ManPian and all these things. So now then, actually the Sports Federation is looking after organizing certain receptions or things like this for athletes, recognizing athletes, having a Hall of Fame, and has the responsibility of the Sports Administration Centre. Has there been a meeting with the Minister and the sports group themselves? Are they pleased with the way things are going now?

Do they feel that this is the best thing, the Sports Federation running that, and what are their views on the Sports Administration Centre? I know that it will probably be very difficult to give me a concensus. I think that all in all the larger groups would sooner have the money because they can stand on their own two feet, and the smaller groups would be in favour of the Administration Centre. I would imagine that this is still the case. But in a few words, could the Minister give us a progressive report on how the Administration Centre is working and are the sports groups themselves fairly satisfied? MR.

BANMAN: I would have to say that I have had, in consultation with the smaller sporting groups and the larger ones, a fairly good report with how the whole system is functioning. The member will appreciate that when he was Minister, things don't change that much. Everybody always wants a little more money to operate, but given the constraints that we have all been working under as well as they are working under, I think that we have pretty good rapport, and I think they're getting a pretty good deal out there.

The member will appreciate that I am of the belief that if we're going to provide too many funds for any of the projects, what's going to happen is that we are going to lose some of our volunteer people who are involved in it, and I think that there have to be certain constraints that way. But the system so far, in the last year and a half, has worked out fairly well. I'm not saying that there might not be some pitfalls along the way, but so far I haven't had any formal complaints or written complaints from anybody that is housed in the Administration Centre at present. MR.

DESJARDINS: Yes, that was a concern of the people of the Centre working itself, but I'm talking about the sports organizations themselves, the sports bodies, do they feel that this is a priority? Are they in favour of keeping the Administration Centre the way it is? Are they satisfied that there is not too much money spent on that, or do they feel that there should be different programs; for instance, more money directly to help pay for either equipment or rental of a rink, or travel, or that kind of thing?

The Minister said they always want more. 1 know that's a fact, and I'm not suggesting necessarily at this time that more money should be spent. You can't satisfy everybody, but in general do they feel that the people are satisfied, that the money available is being spent wisely - are they satisfied? MR. BANMAN: I would say yes.

One of the changes that has been made, and I guess it's in the evolution of the whole Sports Admin Centre and the whole field of amateur sport, one of the things that they had been traditionally complaining about and complained to me for a number of years when I was Minister is the way the grants were handed out. We would earmark so and so much for coach development, so and so much for travel when we would give them a grant. What we have indicated to them is that we are now if you want to call it, block funding, and we are asking them to tell us how they spend their money.

What was happening before was that they were using some funds over here, and not using up another allocation over there, and running short and running back and forth between the appropriations that we were giving them. What we do now, is we are giving them a block grant, to, for instance, the Manitoba Ski Association or the Manitoba Yachting Association, and they then determine whether they want to spend it on coaching or other things. That was one of the biggest problems. With regards to the Admin Centre, I think they've all got used to it, they all use it fairly well. There are some board rooms in there.

I think it would be very difficult for anybody to try to turn the clock back and saying, we would rather give you the money and you do with it what you want. The concept has sort of jelled all the sports groups together and I think they'd really miss the Centre if there was something happened. Even the larger groups are now sort of saying it's a pretty good place to be and it's a pretty good deal. MR. DESJARDINS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, there is something that I just learned today about this block funding, and I know what the Minister means by that.

This might be the time then to ask the Minister whether the objective of the government and the department, and I imagine there are some strings attached. In other words, I don't imagine that you would look too favourably if the executive of the CAHA took the money for hockey and had a meeting in Hawaii, for instance. I would imagine that certain things have to be done. There is a list of things that they can spend the money on, but you don't tell them how much to spend on that because the needs are different.

For some people it might be coachs, other people might be the rentals of ice or swimming pools and so on, and other people might feel that travel is the important thing. Now is the Minister suggesting then, that is pretty well then, most of the programs are left to these groups?

In other words, you are working on other things, like we will see when we go through your Estimates, but as far as the amateur sports, you are saying there is so much money here, this will be divided this way, and you take care of everything, or does the department or the Minister accept certain responsibility, for instance, of training atheletes for games and so on there is funds for that is there? ' MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. 633

Thursday, 12 February, 1981 MR. BANMAN: That's right We have our leadership development programs or coach certificate programs and things like that But what was happening before is that ... MR. DESJARDINS: You're talking about for travelling and such .. MR. BANMAN: That's right and we would earmark X number of dollars for this and X number of dollars tor that and based on the size of the organization that would vary.

They felt that certain times their priorities might be a little different from one year to another and we would go through a fairly lengthy process trying to straighten it all out so we have indicated to them now that given certain parameters, you know, we don't want to get into hosting all kinds of receptions for people and have the Executives fly to Hawaii but given certain parameters they now decide whether they want to maybe send a coach out to Dauphin to teach gymnastics for a week to start up a new club there or something like that. That is left up to their discretion. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Chairman, will these grants, will 1 find that anywhere in the estimates or is the money coming from somewhere else? What is the total amount for that? -(Interjection)- Well, first of all, is it the Estimates we are approving tonight or is it money from the lottery, where do you get the money for the grants? MR. BANMAN: The funds to the sports governing bodies comes from the fiscal budget, from our budget. MR. DESJARDINS: Is this in the package I have? MR. BANMAN: Yes. MR. DESJARDINS: The amount then is under Sports Development, there is the $291,000.00.

That's the money that is going directly to the sports bodies? MR. BANMAN: Yes. MR. DESJARDINS: For a certain number of things to go within . . MR. BANMAN: That is 63 sports governing bodies. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, to the Minister, I heard the member of his staff say both when I asked where that money comes from and I found this $291,000 now is their money. Is it for the same thing? Is it just to make up a larger amount that comes from the Lottery, and what is that amount? MR.

BANMAN: There are specific projects like ManPian, which flows through the organizations and then there are, for instance, there is another grant to provincial sports associations for travel to assist in championships, that's$90.000.00. MR. DESJARDINS: That's not part of the lottery funding? MR BANMAN: No. MR. DESJARDINS: That is strictly to help travel Is that world class athletes or is that between provinces or within the province? MR. BANMAN: It could be interprovincial or it could be international but most of it would be spent on interprovincial travel assistance. MR.

DESJARDINS: What are the guidelines for that? You must have something because I'm positive that the Minister would have the same request practically daily, because there is a pee wee hockey team or midget hockey team or a figure skating team that wants to travel somewhere and it'll be a real good thing for the town or the city and the province; those kinds of requests. Mr. Chairman, I don't know what the rules are, I think we can make our own rules. I have no objections at all in the case in here. We're doing it in a friendly manner, in a way to get the information.

If the Minister would want somebody to answer, I think that's permissable, if we agree. MR. CHAIRMAN: It was questioned yesterday in the rules, so ... The Honourable Minister. MR. BANMAN: What I was asking for is sort of a guideline here. What is happening is that when a team goes to represent the province in a national event, the sports governing body will submit to us a budget, if you want to call it, of what it's going to cost. MR. DESJARDINS: A national event. MR. BANMAN: A national championship. MR. DESJARDINS: For instance, the figure skating championship in Halifax. MR. BANMAN: Yes.

With the one caviat if they don't get full federal funding from the Federal Government. Then we look at it. MR. DESJARDINS: That's national, can understand that, representing Manitoba. What if it's international representing Canada? Do you expect the Federal Government to pick that up?

MR.BANMAN: I think it's been the understanding from the provinces for many years and we're trying to get that hammered out with the present Minister and I just returned from a meeting not too long ago, where he wrote, we will be issuing a statement saying what responsibility rests with who, but I think it's been the traditional viewpoint of the provinces that the training of the national calibre athlete, the elite athlete on the national level, as well as the costs that are associated with the travel is the responsibility of the Federal Government.

And that was agreed by all the provinces and there is a statement out with regards to that being worked out right now. MR.DESJARDINS: This is a new policy then. This has been accepted in principle? It's not announced yet, so therefore, if you have one of the gymnasts, they won't need to worry that they can't go because they can't find the money, you'll have to scrounge the money. This will be the policy, ironed out between, decided between the provinces and the Federal Government and they will accept that responsibility.

MR.BANMAN: Yes, that's the understanding we have right now and they do I might add, if there is an 634

Thursday, 12 February, 1981 international calibre athlete that is doing travelling, they do look after, if they are representing Canada, the Federal Government does look after it. MR. DESJARDINS: Now what about just a friendly team of hockey team or something and I'm sure that you get these requests. What is the policy for that? Do you refer them back to their sports-governing body and say that's up to them, if they have any money, we can't start paying for every team, right? There's no exception, you don't help them in any way? MR.BANMAN: That's the policy I think that's been carried on for many years now.

There's just too many championships whether they be in the field of baton twirling or Pee Wee Hockey, there would be just, the member is quite right and I guess when he was Minister he was bombarded by, especially towards the end of any particular season, whether it be a soccer season or hockey season or whatever, there are many people calling and asking for some form of assistance, travel assistance. There are just too many that we've never got into it and I don't anticipate that we will. There's just no way you could deal with all the requests. There are just too many groups.

MR.DESJARDINS: This might be the time to talk about the games, you still participate in the Canada Games but it seems, and I'm very disappointed in this, that you've done away with the Manitoba Games and the Manitoba Games served many purposes as far as I'm concerned and the committee that look at the situation recommend that these be kept. Now for some reason or other the present government it seems have discontinued that. The value of this was, there was a certain amount of money and what reminded me of that is the travelling. You had people working in their region.

You had a lot of people volunteer, those that organized that, the volunteers, the coach, the trainers, and all these people were working. They were encouraged. You brought in different people from different regions and they received a little bit of help. Every region received a little bit of help and then if there was a site chosen as the place for the Manitoba Games, of course the winning teams of all these regions were helped in participating. What have you done to replace that?

It's good to talk about the class athletes, but unless you have changed, and the Minister can tell us that, if you have changed the objective of the department, 1 think, and whose time was trying to create better fitness, a better life and if at all possible, offer every Manitoban a chance to play - participate in a winter and a summer sport and there was a bit of travelling. What, first of all, was the reason why these games are not going on and what if anything has replaced that? Maybe there is something that is filling the need as well, I don't know. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR.

BANMAN: A number of things have happened and I know some of them go back before I was there. The Canada Summer and Winter Games have become a fairly costly item for the provinces, team preparation and other things, that's one thing. The other thing is that last year it was determined that the provinces would continue with the Western Canada Games which will be continued on a every four-year cycle basis. The next one will be in 1983 in Calgary.

The other thing we have done to try and recognize the ambitions of the Manitoba Games is to encourage regional games and what's happening, this year we will be having regional games throughout Manitoba. We have not gone the one step further and brought that into the Manitoba Games concept, but we are developing the regional sports associations who are developing a regional games set-up and I guess I would have to say that I haven't ruled out the other thing, but it is not in the cards this year. MR. DESJARDINS: With some funding from the Minister's department? MR. BANMAN: That's right.

The grants to provincial sports associations which will include the Manitoba Games will be $175,000, projected. MR. DESJARDINS: I thought that was to help you with the what you are now . . . with the recreational directors and so on, to help - that is not the . . . Mr. Chairman, I wonder, we saw what the Sports Federation was doing. Can we go back to the lottery and then we'll, by elimination, we'll finally reach this and it will be easier. The Minister, from the lottery, the total revenue, which is two-thirds of the amount was about 2.4.

Now out of that your number one program is your capital program - right, that you announced and this is a continuation of last year's program? MR. BANMAN: That's right. MR. DESJARDINS: Recreation, that program is somewhat less generous than last year, the one announced last year. Is that because there is less money to go in its ... ? It's pretty well the same program but less generous . . . working with the money you have. MR. BANMAN: That's right. We reduced the maximum amount, for instance, on municipalities that have over a 5,000 population.

It was brought down from $25,000 to $20,000 to reflect the available funds and the lottery revenues. MR. DESJARDINS:. Is there any change in the - what should I call it - the rules? When this program was started we insisted that first of all if there was any . . . the sponsor would make an application but he would have to have it endorsed by the municipality. The reason for that - we're saying well, if you build a white elephant municipality, you accept the responsibility because we're not tying ourselves into any maintenance and so on which could be pretty costly.

This is something to help you with what you have or build something else but we are not accepting the maintenance. Is that still going on? Is it pretty well the same principle that we had when we started that program? MR. BANMAN: That's right. I think everybody is concerned with regards to ongoing costs. It's one of 635

Thursday, 12 February, 1981 the reasons that the municipalities are tied in, as well as the accountability aspects of it. We wouldn't want to have groups coming into us and us evaluating. I think the local people, as the member pointed out, probably know best through their elected representatives where the money should go. MR. DESJARDINS: What is the total cost, the estimated cost of that program for the coming year? MR. BANMAN: Approximately $2 million. MR. DESJARDINS: So there is roughly $400,000 left from the lottery fund and what are those other programs? You mentioned one with the sports.

From that money, the revenue derived from the lottery, your department's share will be approximately $2.4 million; $2 million spent on that capital project and then you have another $400,000, roughly. You have mentioned something of a sports group there, I don't know, the last one, when we were dealing with this 291 for grants. MR. BANMAN: Provincial Sports Association. MR. DESJARDINS: How much is that? MR. BANMAN: That was $175, but maybe if I could just clarify something here what happens in these programs.

For instance, we are still paying out some funds on projects that have now been completed and applications processed from three years ago, in other words, from the old capital facilities grants, because sometimes municipalities will ask for extensions to projects, and what happens is that the funds for instance on the program that was announced this year will not start flowing until about a year from now. We are just now in the process of starting to pay, or paying out grants which were (Interjection)- That's right, when you announce the program, what happens is that people start sending their applications in.

The Department of Labour has to go through them first to make sure that they meet all the fire, safety, so you are looking ... MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kildonan. MR. PETER FOX: The Minister indicates $175,000 being spent on sports and here in his figures at the back he has $180,000 for clinics, and $86,000 for hosting. Is that coming from a separate area or is that the same thing? MR. BANMAN: That's a current appropriation that we're talking about over there and we were talking lotteries over here. MR. FOX: I see. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Boniface. MR.

DESJARDINS: I know that you approve certain things but you don't pay all the money immediately, some of it is only when it's pretty well finished; when you are satisified it's finished. But I thought that my question was how much money - what has the estimate been this year, and I thought the answer was $2 million. Is the Minister saying that you are approving $2 million but you won't spend $2 million this year, or are you saying that you are trying to catch up from what you owe from previous years and what will be spent on the approved project this year will be approximately $2 million?

What I am trying to do and maybe there is nothing really drastic here or no catch, I am trying to find out where that money is spent. We have identified $2.4 million coming from the revenue of the lottery and I was trying to find out what other programs you had. I thought you had about $2 million of that for your capital program, $175,000 for the sports group. Am I right? MR.

BANMAN: Maybe to make it simpler, and I think the question the member would like to know is what is our anticipated uncommitted balance after we have committed $2 million for this project, and the figure that we are using right now is $1,552,000 would be uncommitted funds in lotteries right now, at the end of March 31st, considering that we have said that we have put away $2 million for this other program. MR. DESJARDINS: You are saying that there is $1.5 million that is not committed before you start this program. After taking care of that program there is still $1.5 million.

Where are you getting that money to spend $2 million on that? MR. BANMAN: What has happened in the previous years is, I guess under the other administration in here too, there are funds committed for different projects. Sometimes the draw down isn't as heavy as is anticipated, but the balance is committed. In other words, if we want to announce a program we estimate roughly on what it's going to cost. MR. DESJARDINS: You had money from last year? MR.

BANMAN: That's right, and if the draw down isn't as heavy, it's a carry forward, so what I'm saying right now is that we anticipate all things being equal with the lottery sales and the member knows that's a little "iffy". It looks like we will have about $1.5 million which is not committed. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Boniface. A MEMBER: You left us a bundle, Larry. MR. DESJARDINS: I know I did, and you froze everything, and then you looked good when you spent it, the same bloody programs, too. Don't get me started we're doing well. (Interjection)- Mr.

Chairman, okay on what do you anticipate spending that $1.5 million then of that money? If you say it's in here, that's fine. MR. BANMAN: One of the things that has happened with lotteries and I think the member, when he was setting up WL&D, the 3 partners at that time. One of the rationales for not paying out funds to those groups for the first six months, in other words, there was always a six-month lag time, was the fact that we never knew exactly how much money we were going to get in.

In other words, the organizations from WL&D, which run the distributorship always have six-month reserves sitting with WL&D, so they get the funds six months later. The intention, I believe, and I've never been able to, or never really sat down and talked to anybody 636

Thursday, 12 February, 1981 about it, the rationale for that is that it would allow these groups a six month lead time in case the lottery revenues started getting a little soft and they could then adjust their programming accordingly. What I'm saying to the member here is that there has always been traditionally, I think, since I've been involved in lotteries, a certain amount of uncommitteed capital which could then be used should something happen to the revenues that are coming in. So I have not got ... MR. DESJARDINS: I am not criticizing.

The Minister is saying that there is $1.5 million, but it's not committed at this time, or part of it is not committed at this time. I accept that. In other words, it's an estimate. You're not going to spend it before you get it. So you're saying that it's not all committed. What part then of that $1.5 million is committed and on what portion? I'm trying to identify the programs. I am not complaining or criticizing. MR. BANMAN: I gave the member the figure of $1.5 million that would be spent, anticipated, on different programs from lotteries with regard to the department in the coming year.

I mentioned that before. I mentioned the figure $1.5 million. That would represent . . . MR. DESJARDINS: The Minister says that what we will have left is $1.5 million once we're finished with the capital program. That's what the Minister said. MR. BANMAN: That's right but the year end is March 31st, we would expect to have $1.5 million left. The projected expenditures for the year '81-'82, starting April 1st, on all kinds of lottery funded programs is $1.5 million. MR. DESJARDINS: Which you have already. MR.

BANMAN: Which is in the books, so we could, I guess, if we didn't go with the capital facilities program next year, let's say nothing happened and lotteries wouldn't make any money, we could still go ahead with the programming for the coming year. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, in other words, the Minister is saying that the money on hand now is committed and nothing else. That you have on hand $1.5 million and you have committed on your capital program $1.5 million, so the anticipated revenue is not being committed as yet. Any new revenue is started after March 31st? MR.

BANMAN: I say when I have committed for that $1.5 million, that will go on through the year and we'll be reviewing it and has to be passed by Cabinet by Order-In-Council, like its always been done. But he's absolutely right, we have enough money to do the program for the coming year; whatever comes in the next year will go on a surplus. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, if I agree to leave this, providing other people are satisfied, then we could start with the estimates proper and all the other programs I'll find them here. The Minister won't say, well that is from a program from the revenue.

That is what I'm trying to identify, where the programs are, and I've been able to determine that the Sports Federation are running the Sports Administration Centre and running their own administration and maybe the Hall of Fame and things like that, and from the share of the department from the lottery revenue is mostly for capital and there's $175,000, I think, for grants, for sports and the rest has not being determined yet. As the money comes in the Minister will submit programs or added money to different groups to the Cabinet, but that hasn't been approved yet. Right? MR.

BANMAN: There are programs for instance like the Sports Injury Centre. MR. DESJARDINS: Who's paying for that? MR. BANMAN: Which is funded from this $1.5 million. MR. DESJARDINS: Well that's what I want to know. I want to know besides your capital program construction, I want to know what other programs you fund through lottery, that's exactly what I'm trying to find out? MR. BANMAN: Well we,'ll have that in our Annual R1port. Should I go through a few of them?

The Frontier School Division for the Frontier Games gets $22,000; the grants to remote communities for recreation equipment gets $35,000, that is under The Northlands Agreement. So it's 60-40, we get some money back on that; we've got the grants to the regional recreational organizations in the province, which is Boy Scouts, Girl Guides, Red Cross Water Safety Programs, a whole bunch of them, that totals $70,000; grants for the Northern Manitoba Recreation Association for travel and administration $5,000; I'll pick up some of the bigger ones. The grant to the energy assistance for the Demand Billing Program MR.

DESJARDINS: For the community centres'? MR. BANMAN: That's right.

That's $100,000; Sports Injury Centre $75,000; Northern Water Safety Program $11,000; Summer Activities Program $33,000, that includes the 75 students that I was talking about, the STEP students, when they were involved in different projects; Birds Hill Day Camp $18,000; Recreation for the Disabled Program $20,000; Gimli Training Centre $15,000; Manitoba Marathon $12,800; ManPian, which I mentioned; the travel for Sports Associations - the one we were talking about the Assistance to Championships; the grant to The Manitoba High School Athletic Association $20,000; Manitoba Games, which we discussed was $175,000; Coach Certification Program ...

MR. DESJARDINS: Is that for regional, because there's no more ... MR. BANMAN: Yes that's the regional. The Sports Injury - we got that. MR. DESJARDINS: Sports Injury Centre, let's talk about that one. Is that at the RehFit? How does that work? The people who are getting care there are charged; they are not even covered. Are they covered by Medicare, to start with? I am talking 637

Thursday, 12 February, 1981 about the medical, the doctor. Why wouldn't that be covered by Medicare? MR. BANMAN: The doctor, if he sees a patient there, is covered by medical. If the patient requires physiotherapy treatment and is a carded athlete, he has a card then the province will pick up the cost. MR. DI;SJARDINS: If they are referred there, private practice for the doctor, they pay for their own? MR. BANMAN: They have to pay. MR. DESJARDINS: Okay. MR. BANMAN: Another program is the Coach Certific<~tion Program, which is roughly about $80,000.00. These are a number of the programs.

There are some smaller ones involved in here, but that makes a total of about one and a half. MR. DESJARDINS: Have you got anything for awards in that at all, or do you have a policy? Maybe in a few words you can tell us what your policy is on awards. MR. BANMAN: The Sports Award Program, we have $10,000 in there. We have the Order of Sports Excellence, which we have given, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, a Gold Medal to an international athlete, a silver to a national athlete, and a bronze to a Manitoba champion. MR.

DESJARDINS: In that award, does that cover - I know it's small but it adds up - all these clubs that don't get any help from the government at all but would like to have some pins to exchance? That part of the award program, where does that come from, from the department or what? What if I have a request for that, who do I see? MR. BANMAN: You would see an official in my department on the sports side of things. We have pins. As the member will appreciate, we get requests from people - I'd like a thousand pins, I'm going here. We have a fairly tight policy.

If people want that amount of pins they have got to start paying for them because there is no way that we can start giving away pins that cost us 75 or 76 cents and start giving away a thousand pins. MR. DESJARDINS: Do you allow so many and then they start paying, or do they start paying from the first pin? What's the score? MR. BANMAN: The policy that is followed is, for instance, if you have a hockey team going to New Brunswick, usually what happens is, if it is a tournament. they exchange pins on the ice. They would receive some pins so that they could use them there. MR.

DESJARDINS: They would have maybe 25 or something like that? MR. BANMAN: But they would not receive pins for handing out to spectators and that type of thing. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(b)(1) pass - the Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR.

DESJARDINS: Can I make a suggestion at this time, all I can do is suggest, that if the Minister is sitting in that position, in that spot next year, I wonder, if we are going to have a true picture - and I thank the Minister for his co-operation tonight but it is very difficult, you know, I was handed this today and I have no idea what it is all about - I think that we should have it a week or so before.

I think that, especially this department, we should have an idea, for instance, of the revenue that comes in, a couple of pages, maybe what comes in from the Lotteries and what has been earmarked for what program, and the amounts, so we know what the programs are. And maybe another page on the Sports Federation and what their budget is, not every cent but at least the details in administration and so on, and the revenue from the Lotteries before we discuss other business. It is very very difficult to determine and to try to look at that with any kind of intelligence.

As I say, I appreciate the Minister's co­ operation, but it would be easier. If you are not sitting there, if I am sitting there, will do the same thing. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(b)(1) pass; 1.(b)(2) pass; 1.(c)( 1) pass - the Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. DESJARDINS: Could we have at this time the staff. What is the total of the department? Is it the same; is it more; is it less; what's the score? MR. BANMAN: We have 60.4 SMYs last year and it is exactly the same this year. MR. DESJARDINS: You had 44.30 that I have for the department last year. MR.

BANMAN: If you will look at the top one that I gave you, it's very simple if you look right at the bottom there, the total department, it shows the adjusted vote at the end of 1981-82 was $1.892 million with a total SMY of 60.04; this year it is $2.173 million with the same total. It shows an increase in spending of $281,000.00. MR. DESJARDINS: So it's the same staff in all the different departments, or have you adjusted it? MR. BANMAN: There could be some adjustments. MR. DESJARDINS: I will have to check. What I have here is a total of 44.30, I must have fogotten something from last year. MR.

BANMAN: If you have got the 44.30, you would be looking only at the Fitness, Recreation and Sport side and not at the General Administration. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(c)(1) pass - the Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. DESJARDINS: Where are we now, Administrative Services? MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes. MR. DESJARDINS: This is all general administration, that's all the Minister's staff and the people working in the department? 638

Thursday, 12 February, 1981 MR. BANMAN: That's right. MR. DESJARDINS: All right, go ahead. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(c)(2) pass; 1.(d)(1) pass - the Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: I wanted to ask the Minister an opinion here on an issue that is quite relevant and this may be as good a place as any, in terms of his position of girls playing on boys' amateur hockey teams and so on. I wonder if he could enlighten us on his position in this matter. MR. BANMAN: I have taken the position, Mr.

Chairman, that the sports governing bodies who look after their particular sport, they are elected representatives, elected by people involved in that sport at annual meetings. They establish the rules and regulations with regard to their particular sport. If, in the establishment of those rules and regulations, there are any problems dealing with any of the statutes that we have on the books, that then becomes a matter for the Attorney-General's department to look at.

With regard to the human rights issue that is involved in this particular matter, the Human Rights Commission is looking at that, but I have not made any direct representation to them on this matter. It becomes a matter where, I guess, all of us would hope that common sense was being used. We have many sports which are either played almost solely by women, others that are played almost solely by men. Hopefully, as I mentioned, a certain amount of common sense can prevail and we won't get into the problem that we have right now. MR.

DOERN: I would just ask the Minister whether I am reading that he has a personal position, the common sense position, being that there should be teams for girls and teams for boys and that when you start mixing them then you start having problems. For example, if you allow girls to play on boys' teams then presumably you have to allow boys to play on girls' teams. So then you have girls' hockey teams and there's a few guys playing on it. Then you have ringette teams. Is that exclusively played by girls?

Then you obviously would have to have boys playing there and you'd smash up that league and the same would go for all the sports that are not traditionally played by girls but also played by girls, like baseball and basketball and volleyball and so on. I just think that people are getting carried away here. They are looking at one side of the issue. They are saying that girls have the right.

Some say that girls have the right or should have the right to play on boys teams, but if that's true then it also works the other way, and then I suppose you have no teams that are exclusively reserved for one sex, so that everything becomes co-educational or whatever it's called. I think that it's ridiculous because you wind up of course in some cases, I guess, with women attempting to play football, and I am sure some could, but we've had, I think, women trying to play pro-football and pro-basketball and it hasn't seemed to work out too well.

My own view is that it is not a good idea to allow a mixture for a whole variety of reasons, one of them being just the discrepancy in size. I am sort of telling the Minister my position. I am asking him whether he concurs with that position. MR. BANMAN: I guess the unfortunate thing about this particular event that has happened here is that one of the girls in question has played for the team for three years, and that compounds the problem.

I think if, at the outset, they had been informed that these were the rules and she hadn't started to play, but now that the team is winning there's problems and I believe that's the unfortunate situation that's happened here. But it should be pointed out, I think, that no matter what sport you're endeavouring, if you are at the Olympic games they go to great length for hormone testing to make sure that you are competing in the men's side or the women's side where you belong.

There is no question - we have ladies' bonspiels, we have men's bonspiels and I don't think it's a matter of discrimination, it's just a matter of exercising some common sense in this program. Again, I say, what compounds the problem here is the fact that they were allowed to play in the first place and that's unfortunate. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, then I would deduce that if the Minister is pressured by whatever groups or individuals to intervene in this so-called dispute or whatever it is, temporary aberration, that he's not going to intervene; he's not going to take a side; he's not going to support certain women's groups or individuals who want some sort of punishment meted out to the CAHA or whoever it is or deny them provincial funding or provincial facilities; that he's not going to take a side in that sense. MR. BANMAN: No, Mr. Chairman, there are some sports like figure skating, where 95 percent of the people there are girls.

The provincial funding goes to them. It's not spent equally, half between the boys and half between the girls. Synchronized swimming for instance is totally girls. There are not any men involved and yet we fund them also; gymnastic program - same thing, the member mentioned that. I think there's about 95 percent girls in that one too. I have taken the attitude and will take the attitude that the sports governing bodies are the ones that are going to determine how they work it.

Hopefully the Manitoba Amateur Hockey Association can form a girls league and these girls can play there then, but they will make the decisions and if there are some contraventions to any of the legislation that we have before us or any human rights things somebody else will have to deal with it. But I think, as far as I am concerned, it's not something that I am going to make a determination on. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I also wanted to ask the Minister, just to clarify here.

He talked a short while ago about the fact that he felt, as I understood it, that Manitobans of international calibre, like Olympic athletes, etc., were a federal responsibility, but I also ask him whether it hasn't been the case that the Provincial Government has supported individual athletes like Bruce Pirnie etc. My impression is that we have in fact either supplemented federal programs or picked up the slack, or where there's a vacuum, filled it to support certain local people. First of all, is that true? And 639

Thursday, 12 February, 1981 secondly, has federal funding become so extensive that it's now covering everybody? MR. BANMAN: If the Federal Government is supporting we don't provide any support. If they are a good potential national calibre and are rated fairly high, we have a program called ManPian which we were discussing before which is $100,000 out of Lottery which is given to athletes if their particular sports governing body recommends that they should get it. The maximum you can get from that, I believe - what is it? 1,250.00.

Just as an example, Ogibowski, the figure skater, received roughly about $1,200 from the province. MR.

DOERN: Was anything done by the province to attempt to compensate - I don't mean with cash payments, but given that the Federal Government got involved in an olympic boycott, which I did not support and thought was not a good policy, and thought was not a policy that produced any results of any kind other than to deny athletes an attempt to participate in an international competition - was anything done to compensate or make up for the denial of some of our top Manitoba athletes who may have been Olympic participants?

For example, were they sent to other track meets, or were they allowed special training opportunities because of what was really a very serious blow to track and field? MR. BANMAN: I understand without quoting too many examples, but I understand that they were sent to several international events. I think Bonnie Wittmeier went to New Zealand and many of the athletes took

part in other international events in their particular sport. But that was a federal responsibility and the province did not get involved in any of those programs. The training of the Olympic team and the sending of the Olympic team is the responsibility of the Federal Government and, to my knowledge, Manitoba has never been involved in that and didn't get involved this time. MR. DOERN: Our ace figure skater, is that Petra Burka - no, Sylvia Burka. She's now into cycling, a speedskater now a cyclist. Is she being supported in her endeavours by the province or by the Federal Government or some combination? MR.

BANMAN: We apparently helped her out in cycling through ManPian. I don't know, is she still speedskating? Yes, retired. MR. DOERN: Are you saying she is now retired from cycling? MR. BANMAN: Speedskating. MR. DOERN: What about in cycling? Is she being supported by the province? MR. BANMAN: She did receive some funds from us. She is now apparently on the national team and will now be looked after by the Federal Government. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Kildonan. MR. PETER FOX: Just some clarification to see if I am correct.

Is there any research done in the way the grants are allocated in respect to the clinics? The reason I am asking is because I find that there is very little difference in the amounts, yet I know that some sports are much more participated in than others. I just wonder whether there has been any kind of research done into the allocation, or is it just the past practice that is being followed? Archery is not as well attended as, we'll say, soccer or something of that kind. How come they have just about the same amount for clinics?

Have you looked into and researched it to see whether they need the same amount or whether they need a greater amount in one area or the other? MR. BANMAN: The staff every year sits down with the sports governing body and looks at what they are projecting to do and this is something that is arrived at. I guess there is a little tradition involved, but it is something arrived at together with the staff of the sports governing body. MR.

FOX: That's fine to sit down and co-operate and discuss, but possibly if Manitoba is lagging in an area, we'll say archery or even amputees, which has nothing for hosting, just 800 for clinics. Should we not maybe promote some of these things, give them a better opportunity to develop.

Maybe the sports federations don't look at it in the same light; they may only look at it in the light of promoting those which are popular to the public and yet maybe the participants would like to have more help but can't get enough voice because they are a small group in the Sports Federation, so they don't get sufficient support from the body. This is where research should maybe be done by the government in order to allocate it more fairly, equitably.

It may be fair now but I am just questioning how much research has gone into developing some of these areas, in spite of what the Federation asks, because the Federation may not be fair always. MR. BANMAN: I understand that the associations submit what they feel they will be using that year and it has worked out fairly well in the past number of years in resolving the different amounts that they are looking at. MR. FOX: I had some representation from people I know, so I will have to tell them that they have to make a little more noise is they want more because apparently that is the way it is going to work.

If the Federation is going to represent them, then they have to make a louder noise at the Federation level. MR. BANMAN: I would tell the member then that they should get in touch with me because it is my department that administers and the Sports Federation, with regard to this particular program, is not involved so they should contact me. If they are not happy with what has happened, they should give me a call directly. MR. FOX: Okay. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I want to make this clear. You are just talking about a specific 640

Thursday, 12 February, 1981 program now; you are not talking about grants? There is a formula for grants to the sports bodies, the one that you refer to as the block funding, that is by membership, isn't it mostly? The general grant that comes under, the 291, what you refer to as block funding, there is a formula for that, isn't there? It is by membership, or according to membership, or what? MR. BANMAN: Yes, there is a formula that is involved with regard to that. MR. DESJARDINS: The program that you were mentioning, then, is only for clinics then? MR. BANMAN: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St.

Vital. MR. D. JAMES WALDING: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I might ask the Minister how many people are presently employed in the Research and Planning Branch? MR. BANMAN: Three, Mr. Chairman. MR. WALDING: I notice the amount is to go up from $79,000 to $96,000.00. Does this indicate that there will be an additional person employed in this branch? MR. BANMAN: No, Mr. Chairman. MR. WALDING: Is the Minister indicating then that the increase of some $16,000 is to be for salaries only? MR.

BANMAN: Yes, there is a reclassification involved and the member will appreciate that this year, because there is a two-year agreement that has been signed, the actual increase, or the GSI has been added on, so this is the actual figure,

whereas previously you would have looked at the Estimates and you wouldn't have included the total GSI MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could give us some indication of what research and what planning was done by this branch over the last year. MR.

BANMAN: This particular group, since I am the Minister responsible for both Fitness and Amateur Sport, as well as Co-op Development, works for both departments, and they would work on a number of areas within both departments, on special projects assessing things such as the sports agreement between the Manitoba Sports Federation, and look at any policy changes, any programming changes that we have got going. MR. WALDING: Does the Minister have further information? I take it that's the research part of it, is it, or is this now planning, or is he not differentiating between the two? MR.

BANMAN: We don't differentiate between the two. There are three people involved in it. They would deal with other things such as the Sports Medicine Council, who are now looking at a few changes, we did a few things there. They would evaluate what is happening at the Sports Injury Centre, looking at the Gimli Training Centre, and we accepted responsibility for NASA, which was handled before by the Department of Natural Resources. It is a group of individuals, three people, who look at the agreements that were involved in things like that. MR.

WALDING: I would like to ask the Minister whether he has given any instructions to these three people for the coming year of any research that he wants done or any particular planning area that he wants carried out? MR. BANMAN: I can't specify anything here right now but they will be dealing with ongoing programs and other things. MR. WALDING: The Minister mentioned something interesting earlier on, that this same group is involved with Co-op Development.

I wonder if he might indicate to the committee approximately how much time is involved between these two departments and why the salaries and other expenditures are charged to this department only and not broken down with an appropriate amount charged to the other department? MR. BANMAN: We went through this last year, I guess, and instead of splitting them up, they are a good group and they work well together, and instead of splitting them up - there isn't any magic to this, it could be split up between Co-op.

I understand they do a little more work for the Fitness side than they do for the Co-op side and I guess you could appropriate one and a half staff man years there and one and a half there. It seemed this was the simplest approach to do it since it all comes under one Minister, and that's the way we have done it. MR. WALDING: It is probably simple and indeed it does come under one Minister, but it comes under different appropriations, or it would appear that it should do since it is for two different functions.

Perhaps I can ask the Minister whether the Provincial Auditor or his staff is aware of this practice and whether it meets with his approval. I have found in the past that the Provincial Auditor and auditors generally are very fussy about the right things being slotted into the right numbers. MR. BANMAN: Finance is aware of it and he's never commented on·it. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(c)(1) pass; 1.(d)(1) - the Member for St. Boniface. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, to the Minister, at one time the department had pretty good statistics, pretty good information.

For instance, they had a chart and they knew how many arenas they had, how many of them had artificial ice, how many baseball fields and so on. Is that being kept up? I know that at times you get behind, but is that being kept up? I think it is quite important when you are looking at these facilities, if the departments have the same aims of trying to serve as many people in Manitoba as possible. Is that available? What is the state of this information? 641

Thursday, 12 February, 1981 MR. BANMAN: It is a computer program and we could get a printout if we want. We keep it up-to­ date. As a matter of fact. we have one individual now who came on staff a year-and-a-half or two years ago who deals exclusively now with facilities. He consults with the different rural recreation facilities as well as in the city. But there is a computer program that is carrying it on. MR. DESJARDINS: I would if I could request a copy of that for our party, to give us an idea of where we are at. That, Mr.

Chairman, is pretty well all the recreational facilities - maybe not every single one, but at least the arenas, the baseball stadiums or swimming pools? MR. BANMAN: We will try to get the member a printout. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman. last year I think the Minister hadn't been in that position too long and he wasn't aware that he had an Advisory Council on Fitness and Amateur Sport until a statement came in. Now. is that operating? Are there members on that; how often do they meet; is the Minister taking advantage of their knowledge and their expertise on that? Is that being done? MR.

BANMAN: We did have, and if the member will remember, last year there was a change made to the Act where it said. "the Minister shall" it was changed to "the Minister may". To date what we have done is we have used groups like the Sports Medicine Council to deal with things like that. I have not set up a particular advisory group. We have specified some other groups. I guess we have dealt with the Manitoba Parks and Recreation Association, with the Sports Medicine Group, with the Manitoba Sports Federation and things like that so I do not have a group as the member mentioned. MR.

DESJARDINS: I think the Minister is missing a bet there. He could receive help from these people, and that would not curtail or prevent him from meeting with these other groups. In fact, he can representation on this advisory council from these people. While we are at that, has the Minister had any meetings with the handicapped people? For too long, 1 think, these people have been neglected. For instance, in his capital project, are there any qualifications or any obligation for these people to make sure that if there are any new buildings, that these people would have access to it?

Is there an effort being made to show the example in this field and make sure that our handicapped people - it's bad enough that they have these handicaps - that they can go ahead and participate and live as normal a life as possible, is that being done at this time? MR. BANMAN: About a year and-a-half ago, we recognized the growing need for some assistance for the handicapped, things like wheelchair basketbalL These sports are really catching on. What we did at that time is we hired an individual who is working strictly with that particular program, as close to the Manitoba League for the Physically Handicapped.

That person is now working very closely with the committee that's been set up to deal with the year of the disabled and his sole job is to deal with the type of thing that the member mentions. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Boniface. MR. DESJARDINS: Okay, in other words, there's discussion going on, but are there any policies that come out of that.

For instance, you have a capital project that you're giving grants to people; now, do you insist that, for instance, if it's a type of building that handicapped could use, do you insist if there are ramps needed and so on, that that be done before you make this grant? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. BANMAN: We have undertaken two things.

We have facility workshops which are carried on all over the province, indicating what the requirements are, but the other thing we've done is to get the Department of Labour, when we talk about these Capital Facilities Grants and that, the Department of Labour will advise the people when they're building, in other words making some changes to their structures or anything, that they should include the proper washroom facilities for wheelchairs, proper rampage and other things so that if there is provincial money now that goes in on one of these projects, these changes are part and parcel of the whole thing. MR.

DESJARDINS: It is one of the conditions before the grant is made? MR. BANMAN: This new building code which now includes all these things is then applied to the facility where this happens and I think one of the examples even is the Winnipeg Arena where they put in elevators now on the side and that to accommodate the handicapped. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, the person that is working in the department on that, is he handicapped himself, or he or she? MR.

BANMAN: There was established in Manitoba an advisory council for the handicapped funded partially from private agencies, I think we gave them a grant, and the Federal Government. It was sort of a co-operative effort. The Federal Government pulled out of that program and what happened at that time the individual that was employed applied for the job that we then bulletined and received that job. That particular person is not handicapped. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Chairman, that person might be very qualified, but I think in the future if any jobs like that come up, the Minister would be well advised to at least consider the possibility of getting a handicap. I'm told that at times they hear from architects and so on and they say it's going to cost you $700,000.00. Apparently that was one of the things that was said at the - the Minister mentioned the Winnipeg Arena.

Some of the handicaps were saying that they could have something for $700 at one time but they're always brought in too late and then people try, are well intentioned, but I think unfortunately we have the tendency of talking to them as the last resort and I think that all the community in general up to now has been lax. 642

Thursday, 12 February, 1981 I'm not blaming the Minister of this department more than anything else but I think it would be well to make sure, from now on at least, to make a start; if there's any construction or any sports like that to make sure that these people can participate as much as possible. Especially if this new constitution goes through and the Bill of Rights ·comes through it could cost an awful lot of money because I think that the rights of the handicap is recognized. Mr. Chairman, again before we leave I think I could stretch a bit and put this in research and planning.

We had discussed last year the possibility of having an interdepartmental committee of governments, the Ministers of the different departments involved to see if we could change some of the things that we've all condemned that have been going on for years under different administration. I'm thinking, for instance of. maybe have some radical changes, some real changes in the question of community centres and school facilities and so on. Now the School Board will say you can't use this gym. I think that they've opened up. It's much better than it was, but I'm giving that as an example.

It seems to me that the Minister of Education and this Minister could work very closely on things like that to make sure ... you know we're talking about restraint, we're talking about the cost of everything, we're talking about the people of Manitoba having to pay for all these things, instead of having duplication that we spend wisely the money that we have. Any new schools could be combined with the community centres for instance.

You have the community centres, it has to service certain area, it is pretty well the same as an elementary school, pretty well the same thing, it has the same need and it would be fairly easy to use these facilities, the yards for instance, for recreation. For two, two and one-half months a year they're not being occupied. They could be used by a community thing and then during weekends when the school is not used, you could have part of the school as a place to change to go skate and so on. I'm giving that as examples where we could co-operate in that a little more.

And certainly in the fitness - when the Minister starts dealing with fitness, certainly he should be talking to the Minister of Health because I think a lot of prevention on health is also important. You should be working together on that, and I think also with a nutritionist and so on, I think that you have to have some kind of a diet, eat proper foods, I think that is as important as the fitness and the training and so on. Has the Minister done anything on that suggestion that I made last year. I don't want the Minister to tell me we meet in caucus and in Cabinet. That's not what I mean.

I'm talking about staff and Minister getting together. MR. BANMAN: There isn't any high powered committee that's been formed. I guess one of the interesting things I think, if we'd look back in Hansard, one of the first years I got here, I think I made exactly that same observation and it's always bothered me, the lack of use of some of the facilities in the summer months or some of the evenings, some of the beautiful gyms. I think if we go back to '73 and '74 the member, when he was Minister in charge will read that I said the same thing that we should do that.

Unfortunately, I guess I have to say that I haven't been able to turn that around the way I would like to. For some reason, Manitoba, I don't know if it's an isolated case or whether we're a little different than the states is, we just have never been able to tie the school into the community usage system as much as the United States has. I've been talking to people about it, asking questions. A lot of people say well I'm finished with school, I don't want to back to school and have a little hangup on that side of the coin.

It is one of the problems that I have not been able to come to grips with and it does bother me because there are a lot of facilities that are not being used fully. I have seen some progress, for instance, in my particular town, there's a lot of fitness courses that have started up and are using school facilities. There are some basement tracks where the school is now unlocking certain doors and allowing people to come in after evening.

I have mentioned to the Minister of Education that one of the real problems we have is that when the school is designed itself, it's not designed in a manner which allows only for public access maybe at one particular door or one particular avenue. What happens is very often you have to open up the whole school if you want to use the gym and that's when the School Board start balking because they're scared of vandalism and things like that.

Hopefully with different programs that are coming in, fitness programs for adults and that, people will start using it a little more, but I'm not happy with the progress I've made. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, the Minister is absolutely right. I certainly wasn't the first one or the only one that talked about this problem this year nor was I last year.

My suggestion was that we quit talking about it and in 1977 there was a committee that was in the process of being . . . finally talked the Minister, well I was responsible for health, so it brings my people and I had convinced the Minister of Education that this was a good thing and he was setting up staff - you probably have memos in your files somewhere on that. I'm suggesting something that was just accepted in principle; if we could go a little further to have these committees to discuss these things. Because this Minister alone will not be able to do it.

He has to enlist the help of the Minister of Health and the Minister of Education for these things and then you could make it work, because you represent the public and the public is paying for this and you know if it's worth doing it, it's going to take a little hard work, but I think you can do it. I guess that's all on that. · MR. BANMAN: The points well taken and I'll work a little further on it and hope we can accomplish a little more than we have to date. MR. DESJARDINS: Before we leave this, can the Minister give us a report on the field house.

You know the university has been asking for a field house, the Minister said a Task Force had come in with the recommendation and the danger is that we're going to wait forever now while they're fighting for the site and fighting to see if it should be a university or a community oriented thing. I am not challenging the necessity of that for the school. My thought is that the university should have one, they could occupy it all this time, that we need some of 643

Thursday, 12 February, 1981 these facilities, especially in the climate that we have. You know we have different hockey rinks and different things like that, for instance, track and field, they're not much and that can occupy a lot of youngsters. It would be better then sniffing glue somewhere or these drugstore cowboys. I wonder if the Minister has anything to report on that; the whole situation, not just the University of Winnipeg. MR.

BANMAN: I guess it is sort of an opportune time to discuss because we're just discussing joint use and one of the things that really intrigued me when I was at the Western Canada Summer Games last summer in Saskatoon, was the fact that the city of Saskatoon along with the University of Saskatoon had built a field house together and were going to joint utilize the facility.

Realizing the needs and wishes of the University of Winnipeg, realizing that we need an indoor track as the member mentioned because of the climate and it doesn't give us a good chance for the athletes to perform, we commissioned that particular, well we didn't commission it we asked a couple of people, Sammy Fabro and a few people to look at it. There was a member from Crescentwood, Nick Daikiw, City Commissioner and Sam Fabro.

They were given some pretty strict guidelines, in other words, to see if it couldn't be a joint-use facility between the city and the U., whether it could be developed in the downtown core area and what finally happened is that they came up with a report and I guess the University isn't particulary intrigued with the proposal. I have asked the Mayor for a meeting. He's indicated to me that as soon as he gets back from Japan, he's gone to Japan, that we will sit down and discuss this particular proposal.

As the member knows, the province doesn't build any recreation facilities, or operate any of them so our rule in this particular field would be one of capital funding for the facility. But I don't want to go ahead and make announcements of capital funding or any assistance until we really discussed it thoroughly with the city, because as we discussed before, it's one thing to provide the capital, another to operate the thing so it would have to be to that extent, we would have to sit down and really hammer it out.

We will be doing that, hopefully, when the Mayor gets back and I'll be able to report more on it after that. MR. DESJARDINS: May I suggest then, and I'm sure the Minister is as interested as I am, when he has this meeting with the Mayor that he should maybe establish a deadline, because there is a danger here of fighting what site and then should it be a joint effort with the community at large and the university. It might be if the Minister is ready to go that he force these people to make a decision fairly soon because it is needed and that might be a way to get these people to decide what they want. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 1.(d) - The Member for St. Matthews. MR. LEN DOMINO: I have a question for the Minister. I don't understand completely what you've just said. (Interjection)- Pardon me? That's a

preamble to a question. Thank you for the help. I don't quite understand that position the Provincial Government is taking. Have we come to the conclusion that there is need for a field house?. Is that an accepted given?. Have we accepted the recommendations of the report and have we made a commitment to build something, somewhere, sometime?. MR. BANMAN: As I mentioned before we are not in the position of building buildings and we are not in the position of operating.

We recognize, and I think everybody in the sports community dealing with track and field, recognize the need for an indoor facility and that was even highlighted, if you recall, when we allowed the Track and Field Association here to set up the indoor track at the central provincial garage. I guess we gave them a bit of the taste of what it's like to have and indoor facility to run and train in and that even heightened the sort of public pressure that has been brought on with regard to that, so I don't think that anybody disputes the need for the facility. We have all the other facilities.

I think that Winnipeg is one of the, and the report points that out when it comes to swimming pools, indoor hockey rinks, and that we've really got a lot of good facilities, but one of the glaring sort of gaps in the whole system is an indoor running facility. I should point out that the University of Manitoba is in the process, they've raised all these funds now and will be rebuilding their hockey and stadium complex but that they intend also to build an indoor running track.

So there is one coming up there but that I don't think alleviates the necessity for having something, I would say that everybody realizes the need is there and that is why we commissioned the report. MR. DOMINO: If we can assume we are going to build something then could I take it from your answers to Mr. Desjardins' questions, that you're going to consult with the City, if we can again assume that the City is going to agree, that a facility should be built, will you be consulting with the city concerning the location of the potential field house? MR.

BANMAN: In discussions, and it is all very preliminary right now but I would anticipate that if the facility is to be run by Parks and Recreation from the City of Winnipeg the site locations and that would have to be determined by the City so that it will come in with their whole master plan. I wouldn't want to get involved in the position of telling the City now you're going to have to build it there or that. I think that decision would have to be made by the City to see how it fits in with their whole recreation plan. MR. DOMINO: To the Minister, so then the City will be involved in the selection.

Are there any other groups that you anticipate will be directly involved in the selection process for a site? The Sports Federation, are they going to be involved in the process of selection? MR. BANMAN: I would imagine the City would be interested in trying to accommodate as many of the groups as possible. Again, it's premature and I really can't answer until I've had some more negotiations with the City to see exactly what their thoughts are, what their plans are for the future? 644

Thursday, 12 February, 1981 MR. DOMINO: Obviously, as the Minister is aware, one of the potential sites that was highlighted in the Steen report and one of the sites that's being discussed by the Sports Federation for some time, happens to be right in the very centre of my constituency, so I'm expressing these concerns.

It has been discussed in the neighborhood and for some time about the pros and cons of a facility of this type because we do have a large piece of open land between Polo Park and Strathcona Street, in which a creek runs, Omand's Creek and the creek is in disrepair and the citizens have found it difficult to obtain the support of the City or the Province for rehabilitation of the creek. MR. BANMAN: Well one of the sites in the report that is mentioned is particularly that site, what I guess a lot of us refer to as the Veledrome site and that's one of the sites I think that's been mentioned.

Now, whether or not that actually becomes a site is just premature, I would have no answer to that. MR. DOMINO: Because it's been discussed by various people that that is a potential site, some of the citizens are concerned that if we were to build a field house and if that site should be selected they might not be fully consulted as to what traffic difficulties would be created or parking difficulties or noise, or simply aesthetic problems for people who live close to the building.

I know it is a rather hypothetical question but what I'm looking for, I think, is an assurance from the Provincial Government that if we fund a project like that we will ensure that the local citizens have a direct and a real say in the design of the building and in effects to alleviate potential problems. MR.

BANMAN: The City Planners of course are going to be involved but I think that particular problem which the member refers to is, I think there were some plans at one time many years ago, with regard to developing that site for something and the same question was raised at that time by the local people in that area. I would imagine, well I'm sure the City would take all those things into consideration before they went ahead.

I should point out I don't think that a facility like this, we're not talking about a 5.000 seat stadium, we're talking about a running track with some facilities inside maybe for team handball, inside the track, some tennis courts and maybe 1,000 or 1,500 seats. But were not looking at something that would be like the traffic coming from a Jets game or anything like that. We're looking at a much smaller complex that would not house that many spectators, would basically be built for the training for the amateur athelete that wants to practice track and field. MR.

DOMINO: I agree completely with you in that I certainly think we have to have a field house and I believe that one of the potential sites, and it may be an excellent site, would be Omand's Creek. And I don't want to leave the impression with you, Mr. Minister, that the people are all opposed to it. To be exact we have held two public meetings on the subject, well attended, and I've distributed a survey to all the people in the immediate are, 3,000 or 4,000 houses that would be immediately affected and the responses were very good.

People were very interested in the project; there were reservations obviously but many of them said it's a potentially good thing for the neighborhood and welcomed it. Some people have suggested that everyone is against it but that's certainly not the case. They just want some assurances and I'm sure those are easy to give.

It should also be mentioned right now that, to be exact, the local citizens are organizing a Citizen's Committee - I just came from the meeting myself tonight, that's why I'm a little late at the committee - to take up matters like this and discuss them with the Government because the people are hoping that if the site should be selected the surrounding land, approximately 20 acres could be purchased and the field house could be placed in the middle of a park because they are very concerned obviously about that creek and the condition it's in and the possibility of turning the creek from an open sewer into a creek park.

So this is the major concern of the people. I thought I would take this opportunity to bring it to your attention and I thank you for your answers. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1(d)1 pass - the Member for Kildonan. MR. PETER FOX: Just before we leave Research, I sympathize with the Minister and the Member for St. Boniface in respect to using community facilities in schools especially and I believe some of the problems arising from getting this cooperation is because some of the gymnasia are not built to have spectators.

And I would wonder whether the research department couldn't look into creating some portable ones or finding out some way of improving those facilities without engendering too great a cost which would then facilitate the use of those gymnasia with spectators at present. Because that's what I find when you go to some of the larger schools that they don't all have facilities for spectators and that could be something that would, maybe if it was created, then people would say, well we have spectator room why can't we get them, why can't we have more involvement and more participation. That's one aspect.

The other question I'd like to raise, and it really doesn't come under Research but which would facilitate the Committee's procedure is in respect to funding. The Minister mentioned block funding earlier and I wondered whether we could get a breakdown on paper so we could just compare and have a look at what it looks like. I know the Minister read off some areas but I think it would be easier if we could see it in black and white. MR.

FOX: We did get the stuff for the clinics and for the hosting but the other, there is nothing before us here and it is not in the estimates either as to how the money is broken down and allocated to whom in respect to the sports. MR. DESJARDINS: I think we're just talking about breakdown of the last one, the Grants. MR. BANMAN: We've been pushing to try and get the annual report done. It's in there and I was hoping to get one. I was just going to photocopy it for tonight but it's at the printers already and it's in there. The total breakdown is right in the annual 645

Thursday, 12 February, 1981 report. I tried to get that through, it's not here but as soon as it's out I'll get it to the member. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member in St. Boniface MR. DESJARDINS: Mr Chairman I think maybe you should pass that before I make my comment. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1{d)1 pass; 1{d)2 pass. Resoluiion 68. 2{a){ 1)- the Member for St. Boniface. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I would like to suggest to the Committee and to the Minister that this would be a good time to rise. I think that we have accomplished quite a bit, not just half a page.

We have looked at many things and it would give us a chance to look at this and we can go on the other one and I doubt if we're going to take that much time, as far as I'm concerned I don't want to speak for others, in the Minister's salary except that is the time we usually discuss lottery, but I mean to rehash the whole thing again there wouldn't be any need. Of course, we said that last year and the Member from Fort Garry came in and she was perfectly in order, so I wonder if we could have the Committee rise. MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee Rise. SUPPL V - AGRICULTURE MR.

CHAIRMAN, Abe Kovnats (Radisson): This committee will come to order. I would direct the honourable members' attention to page 12 of the Main Estimates, Department of Agriculture, Resolution No. 13, Clause 7, item {d){2) Other Expenditures. The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Just prior to the supper hour adjournment I was picking up the debate from where the Member for Lac du Bonnet had left it with respect to the sale of Crown lands and the fact that it required a considerable amount of consideration and a considerable amount of recognition that there are a number of demands on the land base of this province.

And I wanted to, just for the record, indicate to the honourable members that the policy that this government has embarked on with respect to the sale of Crown lands is not a simple knee-jerk reaction to some of the actions of the previous administration or not one that was conceived in the heat of an election campaign, but one that in fact was a very understandable and appropriate course of action that followed several decades, I might say, of consideration of this matter. Mr.

Chairman, I do have to, without going back into history, and without worrying about that, about how land development took place in this province, I do have to remind honourable members and indeed remind my own members from time to time that it was a Conservative administration that chose, in the early 1960s. to freeze all land sales in this province. And for many of the same reasons that the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet talked about earlier on this afternoon, that there needed to be an opportunity to take stock of our land base. to take inventory if you like.

Indeed we co-operated with a very substantial, a very costly, I might say, federal shared program called the Canada Land Inventory Program which really enabled us to take inventory of the land base that we have in the Province of Manitoba. Mr. Chairman, that was undertaken, and not only was that taken stock or that inventory of land taken, but action followed that stock taking; no more perhaps than in that area that the Member for St.

George is familiar with and myself am familiar with than in the Interlake under the ARDA FRED Program that honourable members are well familiar with, and indeed the incoming adminstration in 1969 carried out and carried on with. Mr. Chairman, that resulted in officials within the Department of Agriculture, officials within the Department of Natural Resources, to set aside very substantial acreages of land for the kind of multiple uses that any responsible government would have seen fit to undertake. Mr.

Chairman, I think it is appropriate that we remind ourselves what really we are talking about, and if we start from the total land base that we have in Manitoba, some 135 million acres, we have today 99.4 of those million acres in the public hands in the right of the Crown; 99.4 million of the 135 million acres that we have in the Province of Manitoba are currently under Crown management. Mr. Chairman, that's not going to change a great deal. I point that out simply because we are in that position.

Of that 99 million acres we have set aside some 2 million acres, indeed transferred it to the jurisidiction of the federal government to enable them to manage such national parks that we have in this province and including Indian reserve lands. We have set aside an additional 2.5 million acres tor provincial parks. In addition to that we have set aside 10 million acres for forest reserves; some 34 million acres of that total land base is held in private hands. Mr.

Chairman, as a result of knowing our land base a little better, a result of knowing its uses a little better, we have also set aside in the last two decades some 6.8 million acres in wildlife management acres. A lot of that was as a result of the knowledge that we had gained of the land. Some of it I must acknowledge was also a result of deliberate programs to resolve some of the social problems that we had in parts of the province.

Some of it was a result of the chronic problems that we had with respect to lands being flooded or subject to flooding, and a fairly ambitious program was inaugurated to purchase, by government, formally private lands to for once get away from the problems of chronic flooded lands. I am referring specifically to such areas as around the southern basin of Lake Winnipeg; referring to other areas where the combination of helping out or resolving an issue happened to work very well with the concerns that the managers of wildlife, the development of wetlands, the two worked together.

Private land was purchased under these programs and set aside in perpetuity for that kind of land use. Mr. Chairman, the point that I am simply trying to make at this time in the estimates, certainly not to prolong the estimates in any way, and not to raise unnecessary arguments with honourable members opposite - I appreciate that in the heat of an election debate rhetoric sometimes overtakes all of 646

Thursday, 12 February, 1981 us and that on this particular subject there has been a lot of rhetoric. What I am trying to indicate, Mr. Chairman, is that the land policy of this government is a very natural progression of having done these several things. It was a progressive administration which I was fortunate to be a part of in the early Sixties that said, hold it, let's not sell any more land; we will freeze all Crown land sales.

It was not an ideological position that said that we would not ever allow these lands to be sold but, as being responsible at that time, we said let's take stock, let's take inventory, let's set aside those lands that ought to be used for the broader public use, that ought to be used for wetland habitat, that ought to be used for wildlife management areas, and that, in essence, was done. The question, I suppose, that we have to ask ourself is have we done that job reasonably well? Is, out of our land base, the kind of acreages that I have just read into the record a reasonable amount?

We will have different arguments about that. Some people will say that too much land has been set aside into wildlife management areas, 6.8 million acres; that is a lot of land. Some will say - you know, the question could be asked, have we set aside enough lands for parks of various descriptions in our province? Are those 2.5 million acres, as set aside for provincial parks, an additonal two million acres set aside for federal parks, are they reasonable amounts of land set aside for our children and their children to enjoy? Are they reasonable amounts that a province of a million people can support?

I must tell the honourable members that my challenge and my direction to the department will be to manage those acres, those wildlife management areas, to their maximum capability before I see it as a particular responsibility to acquire more. What we didn't see from the previous administration, any acknowledgement of that continued acquisition of lands, particularly those lands that were formerly in the private sector, into the public sector. I am simply saying to you that I look forward to working with the Minister of Agriculture in this respect.

I believe that in Natural Resources, we have our hands full; we have to manage and decide how we are going to manage those lands that are now our responsibilities, those lands that have been set aside for these specific uses. So the policy of Crown land sales is not, as I said in my first remarks, a simple knee-jerk reaction, ideological, political reaction, as opposed to the position taken by my friends opposite with the question of putting up Crown lands for public sale. We see this policy as a very natural, appropriate progression of different governments having done the right things at the right time.

We stopped land sales in the 1960s, the early 1960s, because, as the Member for Lac du Bonnet said, there were serious mistakes being made. Lands were sold that created serious problems that weren't of any help to the people who were the recipients of those land sales. We took the time and we spent the money to take inventory and we took the time to then proceed with action on that inventory. I certainly acknowledge the efforts on the part of the previous administration in that same regard, some of us say too agressively. But, Mr.

Chairman, I think the policy of Crown land sales that this government is committed to, follows that natural progression of events that tells us that now is the time that in a province such as ours, where there will always be, by a substantial majority, acres of land will continue to be held in the name of the Crown, in the name of the public. (Interjection)- Well, Mr. Chairman, the Honourable Member for St. George says it is productive. It is productive in many different ways, you know, a wetland marsh happens to be very productive for a particular use.

We believe that we have set aside - in fact, I haven't had the opportunity of measuring this record, if you like, against some of my neighbouring provinces, but I would suspect that the amount of moneys set aside for the purchasing of Crown lands for a specific use measures up as well as any other jurisdiction. I don't think that we can say that we are poorly served or that we have done badly by our children in setting aside sufficient land for provincial parks.

I don't think we have done badly to the naturalists or to the wildlife interests in setting aside sufficient lands to ensure that reasonable amounts, acceptable amounts of wildlife habitat is available for the production of wildlife. I believe that we have done it and when I say we, I certainly include the previous administration in this portion. What the previous administration did not show or did not indicate and, Mr.

Chairman, that's an acceptable different of politics, if you like, and philosophy, if you like, they are hung up on the question of returning or opening up to the privatization of certain lands and we endorse it and we praise it and we are acceptable to it. We have made that promise to the farmers and to the people of Manitoba and we will pursue it. We will pursue it not necessarily, simply in the agricultural field. I believe that there are lands that will be available to the general public for uses that may not be agricultural, that could be used for other uses as well.

We do that with the knowledge that we have, in the stats that I have just read to you, set aside - (Interjection)- No, but we have dedicated the lands. When I say "we," I must always include the honourable members opposite during their tenure of office. But these lands have been set aside and they have been dedicated to the greater public use in this area. Mr.

Chairman, we do not take issue, we simply say that of some of the remaining lands, particularly those that have been identified for capability of assisting in agricultural production in the Province of Manitoba that these lands under restrictions, under conditions, can and ought to be and should be and will be made available to Manitoba citizens, and Mr. Chairman, that's what we are doing. Mr. Chairman, there are a number of members that have indicated that they are less than happy with the program as it's being administered today. Mr. Chairman, I can share some of that concern.

I believe that efforts can be made to expedite the matter but, Mr. Chairman, I do not really apologize nor do I take issue with the Minister of Agriculture. I think again it had to be done in a reasonable conservative and cautious manner. It is a gentle program. It's not a question of poor sales. If a farmer that has enjoyed and continues to believe that a lease is by far his preference or to his economic well being, then there will be and should be and ought not to be any pressure put on him to sell that land, 647

Thursday, 12 February, 1981 nor should there be unfairness in having land sold out from somebody's tenure or part of his operation simply because somebody comes along with a few more dollars. All these considerations have worked within the program_ They have held up the sale to some extent. to the extent that some of my colleagues are pretty impatient. I look forward, Mr.

Chairman, to working with the Honourable Minister of Agriculture and now myself in my responsibility as Minister of Natural Resources to see whether or not we cannot re-look, re-think, some of the original guidelines. some of the original proposals that are in effect with respect to the sale of Crown lands to see whether or not they cannot be streamlined, to see whether or not some of the restrictions are in fact necessary because, Mr. Chairman, If you listen to some of the concerns today, there would be very little precious land in agricultural production in this province.

If for instance the concern for the fact that land may be subject to flooding from time to time, I would have to suggest there would be no agricultural production between here and Portage Ia Prairie or indeed in the entire Red River Valley_ All of that land is subject to flooding and we intend to make some very fundamental changes to ease up and to change some of _ . _ to put into the column of accepted, those lands that are currently being rejected. Mr. Chairman, those were the comments that I wanted to add to the Estimates at this time.

I simply feel that it's important, however, that the policy of selling Crown lands is not one that was simply borne in the heat of an election campaign but one of simply carrying out the kind of long-thinking policies that were in the minds of the government at that time, in the early 1960's when it was a Conservative administration that froze all Crown land sales in order to do those very things that the Member for Lac du Bonnet suggested that governments ought to do. I think we have done that, Mr. Chairman. I think our job is now to get on with selling some Crown lands. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. George. MR. BILLIE URUSKI: Thank you. Mr. Chairman. The Member for Lac du Bonnet asked a number of questions with respect to statistics. I don't believe the Minister provided those and we would like to have that information if he wouldn't mind. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): Mr. Chairman, the Member for Lac du Bonnet asked the question how many parcels of land included more than a quarter section. Basically, the 145 parcels of land are all quarters or parts of quarters.

On the other question of were they LGD lands. no, they were not LGD lands; they were all Crown property. The other comments that were made was the fact that there were decisions made prior to our getting into office about turning LGD vested lands back to those LGDs and in fact. the decision had been made prior to 1977 but the actual transfer started to take place following. The amount of acreage is approximately 18.000 acres to this date_ I am sure there are more in the mill, in the ongoing process. (Interjection)- I think I put that on the record the other day, of $1, 169,570.00. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, one more question. Does the Minister have a regional breakdown of those 18,000 acres; where have the bulk of the transactions been made? MR. DOWNEY: I don't have a specific breakdown but when we talk of agricultural regional districts, the majority of the land, of course, is in the southeast and Interlake, so it would be in the northwest region, Interlake and eastern region, basically. MR. URUSKI: You don't have a breakdown, or a general breakdown on a regional basis? MR. DOWNEY: I haven't, Mr. Chairman, but I think it is fairly well evenly distributed across that area.

The department has been endeavouring to try and cover off the broader area and not work in one region specifically and then go to another. It is evenly distributed, as far as my knowledge is concerned. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. A.R. (Pete) ADAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We thank the Minister for the information that he has provided, and also the Minister of Natural Resources for how he foresees things developing in the future. We want to point out that we feel and of course the Member for Emerson is obviously not tuned in to the policy that the government is trying to follow.

That is quite obvious because you know if he had his way it would all go one way and there would be no respect or consideration given to other interest groups whatever they may be. And so I don't think we can accept that position because it goes far. I agree with the Minister of Natural Resources that, for instance, around Lake Manitoba, there are a number of interest groups who have access to that resource and the lands around that resource.

There are trappers, there are hunters, there are farmers, there are ranchers, there are fisherman, there's a whole host of resources_ And we have to be on the side of all those groups because they are all Manitoba citizens_ They are all Manitoba citizens. And the resources. the resources and the lakes and the Crown lands belong to a million people. They don't belong to any one group or any one person, they belong to multi-groups, Mr. Chairman, and all these interests have to be considered. I believe that the government is clearly within its prerogative to set policy as they see fit.

And it is their prerogative to do what they are doing. I want to caution them that so far it would appear in the ill afforded information that we have before us at this time, this program is now, I'm not sure if it's two years, but it's going on two years anyway. That the program has been placed in force. I think it started in 1979 if I recollect, and it seems to be proceeding very, very slowly_ There must be a lot of problems developing for the government to try and implement this policy, it seems they are running into a lot of difficulties on it.

And I want to caution the Member for Emerson who is now acting as our Chairman. I want to caution that there will be a lot of 648

Thursday, 12 February, 1981 discrimination taking place. There will be discrimination. Unin