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September 13, 1978

31st Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

L097 - Wed 13 Sep 1978 / Mer 13 sep 1978

RECALL OF HOUSE

RESIGNATION OF MEMBER FOR CHATHAM-KENT

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

ACTIONS OF FORMER SOLICITOR GENERAL

ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES

TTC STRIKE

ORAL QUESTIONS

ONTARIO ECONOMIC STRATEGY

PAPER MILL CONTROL ORDERS

JOB CREATION

EMPLOYEES’ HEALTH AND SAFETY

UNITED PARCEL SERVICE

DEHAVILLAND DISPUTE

SALES TAX

WESTINGHOUSE DISPUTE

NIAGARA RIVER POLLUTION

STUDENT ASSISTANCE

QUEBEC POLICY ON CONSTRUCTION HIRING

NURSING HOMES

POLIO VACCINATION

AIR POLLUTION

REPORT

STANDING ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE COMMITTEE

MOTIONS

SELECT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH CARE FINANCING

STANDING RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT COMMITTEE

SITTING OF HOUSE

QUEBEC POLICY ON CONSTRUCTION HIRING

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

TORONTO TRANSIT COMMISSION LABOUR DISPUTES SETTLEMENT ACT

TORONTO TRANSIT COMMISSION LABOUR DISPUTES SETTLEMENT ACT

TORONTO TRANSIT COMMISSION LABOUR DISPUTES SETTLEMENT ACT

THIRD READING

ROYAL ASSENT

RESUMPTION OF SESSION

The House met at 2:05 p.m.

Prayers.

RECALL OF HOUSE

Mr. Speaker: Yesterday the Lieutenant Governor’s proclamation was issued calling the House back into session today. I would like, on behalf of all members, to express our thanks to those who worked so diligently and effectively to make the necessary arrangements for the meeting of this House today. We are particularly grateful to the staff of the House, the caucuses, the Ministry of Government Services and other ministries, who made the necessary arrangements for today’s activities.

Mr. Breaugh: What is the member for York East (Mr. Elgie) doing up there?

Hon. Mr. Elgie: I wonder.

RESIGNATION OF MEMBER FOR CHATHAM-KENT

Mr. Speaker: I beg to inform the House that a vacancy in the membership of the House has occurred by reason of the resignation of W. Darcy McKeough, Esquire, as member for Chatham-Kent.

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

ACTIONS OF FORMER SOLICITOR GENERAL

Hon. Mr. McMurtry: Mr. Speaker, it has come to my attention that the standing committee on the administration of justice has recommended that this assembly empower the committee to conduct an investigation into the alleged impropriety of the former Solicitor General (Mr. Kerr) in the case of Francis Harrison.

I understand that this motion will be before the House later and I advise you, Mr. Speaker, that we on this side will be supporting this request.

Mr. Roy: Reluctantly.

Hon. Mr. Davis: Mr. Kerr wants it there, and you should know that.

Hon. Mr. McMurtry: At the same time, it is therefore appropriate for me to inform the members of the Legislative Assembly with respect to the opinion I have received from my crown law officers in this regard and the action I have taken and propose to take in relation to these matters.

Mr. Bolan: How can you wear two hats?

Hon. Mr. McMurtry: As I advised the chairman of the justice committee by letter on September 6, I have received a formal written report from Mr. W. H. Langdon, QC, the deputy director of crown attorneys, in relation to this matter. I indicated at that time that the case had not yet come to trial and that it would not be in the interests of the administration of justice that the report be publicly released at this time.

It would be inappropriate that the details of the telephone call or the surrounding circumstances be dealt with in the Legislative Assembly or in committee, particularly as such matters have already received more pre-trial publicity than what may appear to be fair to the accused.

Mrs. Campbell: From whom?

Mr. S. Smith: All from you.

Mr. Makarchuk: How come the press got the report?

Hon. Mr. McMurtry: I indicated that a number of matters referred to in the report are inextricably interwoven with evidence relating to the background of the accused and the substance of the report is very directly connected with the charge before the courts.

Some of the evidence may not only be prejudicial to the accused but is also prima facie inadmissible in evidence against him at his trial. It would only become admissible in court under limited circumstances and subject to certain safeguards which may or may not arise during the course of the proceedings, which are now scheduled to commence on November 6.

Mr. Roy: Are we going to have safeguards here too?

Hon. Mr. McMurtry: As I informed the chairman of the committee, it is clearly inappropriate that such issues relating to the position of the defendant in relation to a pending criminal trial, become the focus of any public debate and opinion before he has had his day in court.

Mr. S. Smith: The minister mentioned his name. He talked about his hard luck.

Hon. Mr. McMurtry: May I indicate to the assembly, as I did in my letter to the committee chairman, that these considerations bring home to this particular case with special force the general principle that matters awaiting adjudication in any court of criminal jurisdiction should not form the subject of proceedings in the Legislative Assembly or any committee thereof, nor should they become the subject of pre-trial publicity.

Mr. Bolan: Or be interfered with by the Solicitor General.

Hon. Mr. McMurtry: I referred in this regard to standing order 16 of the Legislative Assembly, approved on April 22, 1970, which provides that in debate a member will be called to order by the Speaker if he refers to any matter pending in a court or before a judge for judicial determination.

I indicated to the committee chairman, as I do now to this assembly, that the views expressed in that letter, and which I now repeat, are very strongly shared by the senior law officers in my ministry.

After Mr. Harrison’s case has been concluded I will, as I have previously indicated, release the report from Mr. Langdon to the chairman of the justice committee. I should also like to advise that the former Solicitor General has asked me to advise the Legislature that he welcomes the opportunity of appearing before the justice committee.

As I thought it was important for the members of this assembly to have the benefit in some detail of the legal basis for this opinion and these decisions --

Mr. S. Smith: The Attorney General has already done it.

Hon. Mr. McMurtry: -- I asked the Deputy Attorney General for an opinion with respect to the sub judice rule as it relates to the issues raised in the letter to which I just referred, and for some explanation of the basis for the sub judice rule as it relates to the proper administration of criminal justice.

I have received that opinion and under the circumstances I consider it important that I inform the members of this assembly directly and place on the record of the assembly the opinion given to me by the Deputy Attorney General. The opinion is attached as an appendix to this statement.

It is one of the most fundamental principles of our legal system, and indeed our way of life, that any person facing a criminal charge should be tried in the courts of law and not in the Legislative Assembly or the press. Any further comment by me or any member of this assembly in relation to the circumstances surrounding the proceedings against Mr. Harrison would constitute a serious breach of this fundamental principle which secures our freedoms under law.

My letter to the chairman of the justice committee and the opinion of the Deputy Attorney General speak for themselves. On the basis --

Mr. S. Smith: Read the Premier’s (Mr. Davis) statement of last week.

Hon. Mr. McMurtry: -- of the advice which I received from my crown law officers I will have no further comment to make in relation to these matters until the conclusion of the criminal proceedings now pending against Mr. Harrison.

Mr. Roy: The Attorney General makes the comments he wants.

Hon. Mr. McMurtry: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker: Statements by the ministry. Oral questions. The honourable the Minister of the Environment.

Mr. Breithaupt: Are you next, Harry?

Mr. Martel: I hope you are better than the last one.

Mr. S. Smith: What is the minister going to talk about?

Mr. Speaker: Order, order. The honourable the Minister of the Environment may proceed.

ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES

Hon. Mr. Parrott: Mr. Speaker, when I assumed my responsibilities as the Minister of the Environment, I did so with the knowledge that there were several issues which would require substantial discussion and consideration.

These issues have province-wide impact and, in fact, one has global significance. They are: The collection and disposal of liquid waste resulting from industrial operations throughout the province; the abatement program governing the International Nickel Company in Sudbury; the pollution control measures imposed on the pulp and paper industry; the global phenomenon known as acidified precipitation which affects inland waters --

Mr. Nixon: Is it anything like acid rain?

Hon. Mr. Parrott: No, it’s quite different.

-- in northeastern North American and, in fact, many countries all over the world.

Mr. Nixon: Why did the Premier nod?

Mr. Ruston: He didn’t nod.

Hon. Mr. Parrott: That has a nice ring.

During the weeks since my appointment, I have attempted to familiarize myself with the work of my ministry and with the many details of the task which we face.

Mrs. Campbell: That is the first step.

Hon. Mr. Parrott: Obviously, they are complex matters, and although a lot of information is available on them, there has been no opportunity for me, at least, to put that information on record, either in this House or in a committee thereof.

[2:15]

The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. S. Smith) and the leader of the third party (Mr. Cassidy) have indicated their intention to debate these major environmental issues. I welcome this opportunity. However, the more familiar I have become with these issues, the more convinced I am that they call for a debate in a manner which is neither possible nor appropriate during the question period.

It is my responsibility to ensure that the environmental policies of this government are fully explained to the members of this House and to the members of the public which we serve. In this regard, I would remind the honourable members of the petition presented by the third party on June 23, 1978, which called for a review before the Legislature’s standing committee on resources development of the policies and activities covered in the Ministry of the Environment’s annual report.

Accordingly, I propose that the matters I have referred to be fully debated before the standing committee on resources development. Let me say that I would welcome such a debate. I am more than prepared to hear the views of the members of that committee, to enter into dialogue with them, to make myself and the necessary technical experts from my ministry available, and to provide the necessary information related to these issues.

TTC STRIKE

Hon. Mr. Elgie: Mr. Speaker, later today I shall be introducing for first reading, a bill respecting the labour dispute between the Toronto Transit Commission and the unions which represent its employees in collective bargaining.

As members will know, the bill provides for the termination of the existing work stoppage and for the resolution of the outstanding disputes by arbitration.

Mr. Mackenzie: It is easier every time.

Hon. Mr. Elgie: I must state candidly and honestly that I have personal regrets that the first bill which I have to introduce to this House as Minister of Labour is a bill that is necessitated by a breakdown in the normal collective bargaining process --

Mr. Cassidy: Then why don’t you withdraw it?

Hon. Mr. Elgie: -- a process which in most circumstances has my full support and which serves the province well. However, as a result of my own personal involvement in this dispute over the past several days, I have become convinced that the normal procedures will not produce a fair and equitable resolution of the matters remaining in dispute within a reasonable period of time.

In reaching this conclusion I do not imply criticism of either of the bargaining parties.

Mr. Deans: You should.

Hon. Mr. Elgie: The employer and the unions have been involved in intensive negotiations for almost five months, assisted for most of that period by able and experienced members of the conciliation and mediation service of my ministry. Over that period many issues have been settled. However, a significant number of matters remain unresolved, including the major monetary items.

This past weekend I became involved personally in the dispute. On the weekend I met with both bargaining committees. When it became apparent to me that it would not be possible to achieve a negotiated settlement before the strike deadline, I urged the parties to consider voluntary binding arbitration as a sensible mechanism for avoiding a work stoppage. However, for a variety of reasons which I can appreciate, such a voluntary arrangement could not be concluded.

I might add that on Monday of this week the Premier and I met again with both sides. During the course of Monday afternoon and throughout the evening we met with the parties and explored every available avenue to bring this dispute to an end, including the resumption of negotiations and further discussions about voluntary arbitration.

I want to say to the Legislature that I appreciate the co-operation of both sides during those meetings and the genuine effort they both made to settle the dispute. However, as members know, early Tuesday morning these talks concluded without a settlement and a decision was made and announced to recall the Legislature to deal with the matter.

As the Premier has said, we have reached the conclusion that this is not an ordinary dispute. The disruption to the public since Monday has been obvious to everyone. It goes beyond mere inconvenience when the essential transportation needs of a vast metropolitan community of over two million citizens cannot be met. With the interdependence and the linkages between Toronto and almost every other part of Ontario, the potential negative impact in commercial and in economic terms becomes all the more serious.

Our decision would have been more difficult if on Monday night there had been some encouraging signs of the possibility of settlement. However, there were not, and we do not see any merit, therefore, in allowing the dispute to drag on for days or weeks.

The principles of the bill will, of course, be fully debated. As members will see, it provides for resumption of service with all outstanding issues to be decided by a single arbitrator within a stipulated time-period. I shall be introducing an amendment to the bill as printed to provide for a general wage adjustment of four per cent, pending the arbitrator’s final decision.

I am pleased to inform the Legislature that subject to the passage of the bill I intend to recommend to Her Honour the Lieutenant Governor in Council the appointment of the Honourable Mr. Justice Sydney L. Robins as arbitrator.

I should perhaps comment upon suggestions which have been made from some quarters that the bill should have provided for some final offer selection arbitration. This was an option which I considered very seriously. I acknowledge that it is a dispute resolution technique which seems to be gaining wider acceptance in other jurisdictions and in appropriate circumstances may well be a workable technique. However, I am not persuaded that it is appropriate for this particular dispute.

For one thing, substantial progress has been made in settling a number of contentious issues and I would not wish to propose a settlement technique which would reopen those matters. Alternatively, if the final offer selection procedure were to be applied only to the issues remaining in dispute, one or other of the parties might, with justification, complain that the rules of the game had been changed in mid-stream and that they would have taken much different positions had they known they were working towards final offer selection.

Thirdly, one cannot ignore the warnings of those industrial relations practitioners and commentators about the consequences of the fact that in final offer selection one side or the other wins all and that this margin can become quite exacerbated as the years go on.

It is argued that this carries a substantial risk that the disappointment and dissatisfaction of the losing side may taint the future relationship between the parties for the life of the collective agreement and perhaps beyond.

Moreover, I can tell members in all frankness that during our attempts to arrange for voluntary arbitration final offer selection was discussed and, frankly, grave reservations were expressed by the union.

I have concluded, in the light of those reservations and for the reasons outlined above, therefore, that this is not the occasion for the use of that technique. I am aware, of course, that collective bargaining legislation governing school boards, teachers, as well as community colleges, contains provisions for final offer selection, but only on a voluntary basis; what is proposed in the bill that I introduce today is a compulsory mechanism and therefore is distinguishable in an important respect.

Finally, while it is obviously the right of all members to engage in full debate, I hope that we may proceed as expeditiously as possible so that the transit service can be resumed and the dispute can be resolved quickly.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

ORAL QUESTIONS

ONTARIO ECONOMIC STRATEGY

Mr. S. Smith: I have a question of the Premier on what must be, apart from the transit strike, our most important issue; that is, the state of our economy. I would ask the Premier, given the need to improve business and consumer confidence, if he would be able to tell us what is the meaning of these statements by his Treasurer (Mr. F. S. Miller), who seems uncertain as to whether to continue the previous Treasurer’s (Mr.

McKeough) system of restraint or not, seems uncertain as to whether or not to head for a balanced budget, and is now apparently in a position where provincial revenues have been changed drastically both by federal changes and by poor predictions on the part of the previous Treasurer.

Mr. Roy: You are embarrassed over there.

Mr. S. Smith: Given the fact that the new Treasurer apparently has no idea which way to go in the province of Ontario, when can we expect from the Premier, the co-author after all of the now defunct last budget, a detailed statement of the economic and fiscal policy for the province of Ontario to end the drift and uncertainty which presently exist?

Mr. Deans: Summer has not mellowed you a bit.

Mr. Cassidy: Who expected it to?

Hon. Mr. Davis: I read with some interest what I am sure was an accurately reported story, Mr. Speaker, on your own assessment of the conduct of affairs in this House where you said by report -- and report only, because I know you would never have said this directly to the young lady who wrote the story --

Mr. Breithaupt: Do not circumvent.

Hon. Mr. Davis: -- that it was your intention to limit to a greater extent some of the excellent contributions that some of us make during the question period.

Mr. Martel: I already sent a note.

Mr. Cassidy: The Premier has not changed a bit. Answer the question.

Hon. Mr. Davis: I would say to the leader of the New Democratic Party, I have not changed a bit. I only wish for his sake and that of his party he would change a lot, and his prospects might improve a little bit as well.

Mr. Speaker: Order. The question, as I heard it, was, when can the Leader of the Opposition expect some new initiatives from the Treasurer.

Hon. Mr. Davis: Mr. Speaker, this is really what I was coming around to asking you to clarify for me. Actually, I thought I heard a number of questions from the Leader of the Opposition and I was really seeking some advice from you as to which of the many questions you wanted me to answer.

Mr. Sweeney: You have not answered any one of them.

Mr. Speaker: That is the one I heard.

Hon. Mr. Davis: If the Leader of the Opposition after his rhetoric and his obviously non-objective, political assessment --

Mr. Sargent: Having said that.

Hon. Mr. Davis: Having said that -- if he is asking me when the Treasurer will be communicating with the members of this House in terms of his assessment of the financial and fiscal position of the province of Ontario, then I would say that he will be doing that shortly. In that the supplementary question will be: When is shortly? -- I would say shortly after we resume for a longer period of time than hopefully this one- or two-day session will take.

However, in fairness I do have to answer one aspect of the question of the Leader of the Opposition where he did ask: What does the Treasurer mean by certain policies to encourage business growth and consumer confidence? I think if the Leader of the Opposition were to read some of the recent material he will find that the assessment of consumer confidence is somewhat higher than it was and that is somewhat encouraging.

I know, as for those who are negative in their thoughts like the member for London Centre, that disturbs him because when he sees consumer confidence increasing he knows that economic activity will increase as a result. While he in his own heart knows that is a good thing, politically he does not want to see it happen. I understand that.

I just want to refer to the specifics. Actually it was prior to the new Treasurer’s assuming responsibility, but with his enthusiastic support, that this government made a very basic decision as it relates to the economy of this province, whereby because of the initiative of this government we have allocated $28 million of the taxpayers’ money for a $536 million capital investment in the city of Windsor which will provide directly 2,600 jobs, 2,100 or 2,200 indirectly in the parts industry and probably 2,000 jobs in other services.

[2:30]

An hon. member: What about the jobs that are being lost?

Mr. Sargent: You are out of order.

Mr. Martel: The blackmail has begun.

Hon. Mr. Davis: So, Mr. Speaker, on the initiative of this government -- and I intend to be in Windsor in about four weeks for the sod turning -- we will have one of the most significant economic incentives and demonstrations of confidence, in spite of the fact that those people opposite are philosophically opposed. The membership of the UAW are delighted. That, I think, is a clear indication of the direction this government is going.

Interjections.

Mr. S. Smith: I confess, Mr. Speaker, to have been a little bit abashed at my circumlocution in asking the question, for which I would apologize to you, but the Premier has outdone me in circumlocution today; there’s no doubt about that.

Interjections.

Mr. S. Smith: May I ask, by way of a serious supplementary, given the fact that it will be some weeks yet before the Treasurer knows where he is going and before the people in Ontario know whether we are going to balance the budget, unbalance it, have restraints or no restraints, can the Premier at least tell us whether the municipalities and school boards of Ontario will as usual be informed this Friday as to the level of transfer payments they can expect next year, as they are normally told at this time; or does the total economic confusion in this government have to extend to them as well? If they are not going to be told this Friday, when are they going to be told?

Hon. Mr. Davis: Mr. Speaker, 1 think the Leader of the Opposition used the word “normally,” which I find encouraging, coming from the Leader of the Opposition --

Mr. Peterson: He wasn’t analysing you.

Hon. Mr. Davis: What do you mean, he was analysing me? Oh, he wasn’t analysing me.

Interjections.

Hon. Mr. Davis: Listen, he analysed you rather successfully a couple of years ago.

Mr. Speaker : Just ignore the interjections.

Hon. Mr. Davis: I’m not sure if it was to your party’s benefit necessarily, but he did.

Interjections.

Mr. Ruston: Are you flaunting your authority in front of the Speaker?

Mr. Martel: You are deliberately being antagonistic.

Mr. Makarchuk: Why don’t you get a couch somewhere?

Hon. Mr. Davis: As we’re debating this other legislation at midnight tonight, I may go to the couch for five or ten minutes to get a little rest; I don’t know.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Hon. Mr. Davis: We have informed on some occasions the municipalities and the school boards. I think, if memory serves me correctly, though, it has not always been the case that it has been done in September.

I should also point out to the Leader of the Opposition that while on some occasions we have given to the school boards, shall we say the rough figures, I think it is also accurate to say to the Leader of the Opposition -- and I know his colleague to his left will understand this, as he has for so many years -- that while the percentage figure is of some interest, it really isn’t until the grant regulations themselves are made available that the boards can do their calculations in a totally accurate fashion.

I think historically, Mr. Speaker, the grant regulations have not appeared -- and the former Minister of Education (Mr. Wells) can correct me if I’m wrong -- this early in the year in any event. In fact I can recall, Mr. Speaker, grant regulations coming out in February or March.

Mr. Nixon: They certainly didn’t when you were minister.

Hon. Mr. Davis: I assure the Leader of the Opposition the figures will not be available this week. I think most municipalities and their political leaders, most school board members and their leaders will understand that they can make a reasonably accurate guess as to what the financial assistance will be from the province of Ontario, although we will not be giving a specific figure by Friday of this week. With respect, Mr.

Speaker, this will not limit the activities of the local municipalities or the school boards who, I’m sure, are exercising the same concern, the same desire for good management and efficiency in their operations as they prepare for the next financial year. We don’t think this will inhibit them in the discharge of their own responsibilities.

Mr. Cassidy: Mr. Speaker, to the Premier: Are we to assume from the length of the Premier’s answer that the government, when it comes up with those grant regulations, intends to further reduce the level of its support for school boards across the province and further cut back the level of its support for municipalities across the province, with the inevitable result of higher property taxes? And if the government is going to make the municipalities and school boards raise property taxes, how soon will they be told the bad news to pass on to their taxpayers?

Mr. S. Smith: Before election time or after?

Hon. Mr. Davis: Mr. Speaker, I think it is fair to point out to the leader of the New Democratic Party that, as he has done in the past, it is unwise to make assumptions. If he reads carefully in Hansard what I said, he shouldn’t make any assumptions.

I would also point out to the leader of the New Democratic Party that the question of real property increase doesn’t necessarily relate to the level of support that is provided by the government of this province. There is a certain measure of flexibility which a lot of our municipalities and school boards have demonstrated in their own abilities to maintain the level of expenditure as something that is acceptable to the real property taxpayers of this province. I think it is regrettable that he would suggest that if we pay more money the municipalities or the school boards will of course spend it.

Together, the municipalities, the school boards and the province have an obligation to see that the taxpayers are being well served in terms of the amounts of moneys that are being expended, and to necessarily suggest that our level of grants will then provoke them into spending money they needn’t necessarily spend I think is very unwise.

Mr. Martel: That’s nonsense. Your imagination is running away with you.

Hon. Mr. Davis: That was really implied in the question.

Mr. Swart: Will the Premier tell us whether the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Mr. Wells), when making the announcements on transfers to municipalities, will also be tabling some formula, similar to the Edmonton commitment, so that the municipalities will have some guarantee in the future and they don’t find that their promised grants are dramatically cut after a provincial election?

Hon. Mr. Davis: Mr. Speaker, I don’t think we really want to get into a debate today on the Edmonton commitment or the amount of support the municipalities have received as it relates to the commitment. Just going by general figures -- and I am sure the honourable member is as aware of these as I am -- to date we have overpaid the municipalities in terms of the Edmonton commitment.

Mr. Swart: The new version --

Hon. Mr. Davis: And, really, I think to raise this is an irrelevant issue.

Mr. Swap: -- but $400 million short of the old version.

Hon. Mr. Davis: Oh now, come on. The member knows better. We have been more generous than the Edmonton commitment.

PAPER MILL CONTROL ORDERS

Hon. Mr. Parrott: I personally want to look at that order. I am not sure that the members of the House are aware, as I wasn’t, that that order is issued by the regional director; and that is by the legislation of this House. But I want to assure the Leader of the Opposition that I will look at that on a personal basis -- it has taken a good deal of time to look into all of the details -- and that I am proceeding to do so right now. I will have that finalized, and I believe an order will be issue4 before the end of this month.

Mr. S. Smith: By way of supplementary, is it a fact that the ministry is now drafting an amending control order for the Canadian International Paper Company in Hawkesbury -- which is, I understand, the mill with the highest pollution in terms of oxygen demand in Ontario and a contributor to the serious pollution of the Ottawa River -- extending that company’s licence to pollute? If so, is the amendment just going to be with regard to giving them more time to continue the present level of pollution, or is the ministry actually going to change the standards which have been demanded of that company and of others?

Hon. Mr. Parrott: I rather suspect that that order, with that particular company, is under consideration. But I would say to the leader of the Liberal Party that it has not come to my attention as yet, and I cannot give him an answer today as to the details of that particular situation. It will come to my desk, I’m sure, and at that time I will be prepared to discuss it and to advise him of it.

Mr. Cassidy: Supplementary: In view of the failure of ministry inspectors to monitor control orders and to issue a warning which is public when companies are failing to take the necessary steps to comply by the dates laid down in the control order, can the minister undertake that in future those warnings will be made public so that the Legislature and the people of Ontario will know whether or not companies are moving in the right direction to meet control orders? Or does he intend to abandon those standards completely?

Hon. Mr. Parrott: I have to disagree somewhat with the leader of the third party when he says that we have abandoned the inspections. Indeed, nothing could be further from the truth. We are making a very conscientious effort in this province to monitor and inspect. I think I can assure the members of this House that I and the ministry I represent are very enthusiastic about the control of the quality of our air and water, and we will continue to be concerned, as concerned as the members opposite.

Mr. Roy: That is what the previous minister said.

Mr. Martel: It was just the last minister who wasn’t concerned.

Ms. Bryden: Mr. Speaker, in view of the minister’s responses to the questions about Reed and Hawkesbury and so on, and his statement in the House, I would like to ask him if he is merely prepared to debate the question of the cleanup of the pulp and paper industry, or is he prepared to give us a commitment that, unlike his predecessor, he is ready to get tough with the pulp and paper industry, our greatest polluter?

Mr. Warner: You may be the next one to go.

Mr. Martel: Close them all down.

Hon. Mr. Parrott: I guess I should attempt to ignore the subjective appraisals of the members opposite, but I must in all honesty come to the defence of my predecessor.

Mr. Warner: Indefensible.

Mr. Bradley: Impossible.

Mr. Roy: That’s why he was shifted.

Mr. Laughren: Give him all the help you can.

Mr. Peterson: You can certainly try.

Mr. Warner: Why don’t you take a sabbatical?

Hon. Mr. Parrott: Let me say to the member that I am prepared to discuss it with her. We may not come to a meeting of the minds on any particular issue --

Hon. Mr. Davis: I hope not.

Mr. S. Smith: There are certain prerequisites --

Hon. Mr. Parrott: -- I think that has a high possibility, as a matter of fact -- but that doesn’t mean that I won’t listen attentively to her suggestions.

Mr. Warner: But you won’t do anything.

Hon. Mr. Parrott: At the conclusion of that debate, I guess it is my responsibility -- and I welcome that opportunity -- to make a decision and present it to the people of Ontario.

JOB CREATION

Mr. Cassidy: I have a question for the new Treasurer about the responsibilities he has assumed, or those he has been left by the Premier after the shrinking-down process that took place. With 291,000 people out of work in Ontario today, or 7.3 per cent of the population unemployed, can the Treasurer give us an estimate of what he anticipates the unemployment rate will be in the winter and what measures of job creation he intends to bring into this Legislature when we resume in October?

(Applause)

Mr. Breithaupt: Don’t worry, Frank, it will be the only time.

Hon. F. S. Miller: I thought the clapping was coming from behind me, but when I see it in front of me I’m now really worried about the Premier’s choice.

Mr. Foulds: So are we. Quit while you are ahead, Frank.

Mr. Cassidy: You are more to the right than we thought.

Mr. Bradley: After Darcy, anyone’s better.

An hon. member: You might be worried about what’s behind you.

Mr. Martel: Yes, what’s behind you, Frank?

Mr. Roy: In that job you better look behind.

Hon. Mr. Davis: That’s why your leader has you in the front row; he doesn’t want to look behind.

Mr. Laughren: Say something, Frank.

Mr. Speaker: The honourable Treasurer is the only person who has the floor.

Mr. Kerrio: It’s hard to tell.

Hon. F. S. Miller: I suppose the figures the leader of the third party quoted are the end of July’s figures. I don’t know whether he has seen the end of August figures or not --

Mr. Eaton: He doesn’t want to admit it.

Hon. F. S. Miller: -- but there was an improvement in Ontario. I think the actual unemployment rate in Ontario at the end of August was 6.6 per cent and it was seasonably adjusted to 7.1 per cent.

I thought the most encouraging fact about that statistic had two parts to it. First, 177,000 more people are at work in Ontario today than were a year ago --

[2:45]

Hon. Mr. Davis: That’s 77,000 more than the charter.

Mr. Roy: The Premier will need them at the end of his 10-year program.

Hon. F. S. Miller: -- and 66,000 more young people were at work today than a year ago.

Mr. Laughren: How many more are unemployed? What a lot of nonsense.

Hon. F. S. Miller: In fact, the unemployment rate for the 15-to-24 group dropped to one of its lowest levels in some time.

Hon. Mr. Rhodes: After the next election the member for Nickel Belt will be unemployed.

Hon. F. S. Miller: I think that is an encouraging sign. That doesn’t mean that the problem has been licked, and I can assure the House that the Minister of Industry and Tourism (Mr. Rhodes) and I, along with the government we’re a part of, do rate the creation of new jobs in this province as perhaps the most important task we face. We are going to be working on that and I can assure the members that we will be presenting before this House a program for more employment and for the encouragement of investment in Ontario as the fall proceeds.

Mr. Laughren: Mr. Speaker, despite the Treasurer’s rather superficial response when he talks about the numbers working versus the numbers unemployed, I’d like to pursue the problem with him a little bit further.

In view of the fact that the budgetary predictions for this year had unemployment as lower than the 7.1 he referred to, and in view of the fact that the budgetary deficit will be higher than predicted, and that revenues will be down and inflation higher, is the Treasurer willing at this point to commit himself to bringing in a six-month budget when the House reconvenes in October?

Hon. F. S. Miller: No, Mr. Speaker, I will not be bringing in a budget when the House reconvenes.

Mr. Peterson: Does the Treasurer know how to do it?

Hon. F. S. Miller: I will be making certain statements then and I will be making the statement the Premier referred to in the response to the Leader of the Opposition.

The overall position is, I think, a reasonably favourable one and I am encouraged that, in fact, we are making progress --

Mr. Peterson: Compared to what?

Hon. F. S. Miller: -- and I feel that by the time I have had this position for another month --

Mr. Martel: The Treasurer will have it mastered.

Hon. F. S. Miller: -- I will have it mastered, yes.

Mr. Breaugh: McKeough hasn’t gone away; he has just shrunk.

Mr. Peterson: Does the Treasurer agree with the statement quoted in the press of one of the chief advisers to his predecessor, Mr. Kierans, who has said that there is no way that the government is going to be able to balance its budget by 1981? Does he agree with that? Number two, is he an adviser with the Treasurer?

Hon. F. S. Miller: Number one, I was asked if it is likely that he is correct and I said that’s very possible, because -- and I know the party opposite loves to sever itself from its Liberal Party in Ottawa --

Mr. Peterson: Don’t worry about us.

Hon. F. S. Miller: I’m not worried about you but there is a bond that unites you and let’s realize it.

Hon. Mr. Rhodes: His name is John Turner; that’s your uniting force.

Hon. F. S. Miller: The shortfall in Ontario’s revenue has almost entirely been due to cuts in federal transfer payments in the last while --

Mr. S. Smith: No way; that’s not true.

Hon. F. S. Miller: -- with impending cuts for next year of a quarter of a billion dollars unilaterally imposed in the province, transferring to us the deficit they can’t control.

Mr. Roy: You told them to cut.

Mr. Sweeney: How about municipal governments? It’s the same story.

Mr. Roy: Quit making those statements; Mickey Hennessy is going to have a heart attack.

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Mr. Cassidy: Am I to take it from the Treasurer’s statement, Mr. Speaker, that since he does not intend to bring down a budgetary statement in the fall, that means that he and his government are going to continue to tolerate unemployment around the level of 300,000 over the course of the next six months, while taking no effective action?

Mr. Hennessy: That is a joke.

Hon. F. S. Miller: Those are not necessarily related statements. This government is taking action and will be taking action.

Mr. Martel: What action? You have got one more vacant seat; I suppose somebody can run for that job.

EMPLOYEES’ HEALTH AND SAFETY

Mr. Cassidy: I have a question for the Minister of Labour. Have the Minister of Labour and the Ministry of Labour completed their consultations with affected groups concerning the proposed Bill 70 on health and safety, and is the minister now prepared to proceed with that bill as it was reported to the Legislature by the standing committee on resources development in the spring?

Hon. Mr. Elgie: As the member well knows, there have been some distracting issues, not alone the recent wedding, the honeymoon of which has been interrupted by the recall.

Hon. Mr. Davis: The member for Carleton East (Ms. Gigantes) doesn’t look happy about it.

Hon. Mr. Elgie: I am in the process of reviewing the consultation process that has taken place. When I have reviewed that, I will be prepared to discuss it.

Mr. Cassidy: Can the minister give an undertaking that he is prepared to bring the bill back in the manner in which it was reported by the standing committee, or is he going to start this whole process from the ground up again in the way his predecessor was trying to do?

Mr. Pope: No.

Mr. Sterling: No.

Hon. Mr. Elgie: I must say -- and in a sense I apologize that I just haven’t had time to review it in a great enough depth to give a proper answer -- that I will give that bill the consideration that all of us want it to have. I will be discussing it with the Legislature as soon as I have carried out that review.

UNITED PARCEL SERVICE

Mr. Cunningham: As the person responsible for the administration of justice in Ontario, has the Attorney General investigated allegations that counsel for several of the respondents in the UPS application before the Ontario Highway Transport Board actually wrote the decision under the former chairman’s name? Since it has been admitted at the very least that this decision was “dressed up”, has he determined whether the law has been broken, specifically

section 18(

a) or (

b) of the Ontario Highway Transport Board Act?

Hon. Mr. McMurtry: That issue is before the divisional court of this province. That being the case, I don’t think it would be useful or proper for me to comment on it.

Mr. Cunningham: Supplementary: I might inform the Attorney General that is not in fact the case; and that being the case, I will ask him has he or have his officials or officials in the Ministry of Transportation and Communications, interviewed the former chairman, Mr. Shoniker, or Mr. Zimmerman, QC, the lawyer in question, or most important Mr. John A. Wardrope who was also commissioner at the time on that particular case, and determined whether or not there has been any impropriety in this particular case?

Especially in the case of Mr. Wardrope, has the Attorney General determined his involvement in these serious allegations and can he comment on them?

Hon. Mr. McMurtry: I have nothing further to add to my previous answer.

Mr. Roy: You are taking a narrow approach.

Hon. Mr. McMurtry: It isn’t a bad approach.

Mr. Martel: Visibility zero.

DEHAVILLAND DISPUTE

Mr. di Santo: I have a question for the Minister of Labour. In view of the fact that the workers at the deHavilland plant have been on strike since July 10 and in view of the fact the offices of the mediator have come to a halt since he has not been in contact with the union since August 14, can the minister tell the House what he is planning to do in order to help solve that dispute?

Hon. Mr. Elgie: The member was good enough to speak to me personally last week about this. He knows there were certain matters that intervened which have taken a fair amount of my time. He knows that I have the same interest as he does. I will review that matter and intervene if I feel it will help.

Mr. di Santo: I have a supplementary. In view of the fact that the company has chosen apparently to break off talks with the bargaining committee and negotiate directly with the individual workers, sending them letters, can the minister assure the House that he will bring the company back to the negotiating table and make sure they will negotiate in good faith?

Hon. Mr. Elgie: I’m not in a position to decide whether or not there’s been bad faith. I haven’t had the opportunity to review the matter in the detail it requires; but I will do that, and the member knows I will do that.

SALES TAX

Mr. Eakins: I have a question of the Minister of Industry and Tourism.

Since the minister has been widely I reported as saying that he has quite some degree of influence in the cabinet, I wonder what progress he is making to persuade his colleagues -- this is his comment in the various newspapers, that he has quite some degree of influence -- to keep the sales tax in the area of four per cent?

Hon. Mr. Rhodes: I thank the honourable member for his confidence in my ability. I don’t recall telling anyone I had great influence -- I think I have some; certainly more than he has or ever will.

Hon. B. Stephenson: Or your leader.

Hon. Mr. Rhodes: Knowing him for a reasonably rational and intelligent person, I wish he could have some influence on his leader. He could use the help.

That matter has been discussed by my colleagues and myself, and I have discussed it with the Treasurer. It’s a matter for the Treasurer to determine, not for me.

WESTINGHOUSE DISPUTE

Mr. Mackenzie: I have a question to the Minister of Labour. It would seem that the new Minister of Labour is at least taking his job seriously, which is a plus. I’m wondering, therefore, inasmuch as he’s involving himself in several disputes around this province, and as his staff have not been able to move in the situation at Westinghouse in Hamilton, if the minister would consider involving himself personally in the strike between UEW 504 and the Westinghouse Corporation? This strike is now better than 18 weeks old and certainly has reached the point where there should be some ministerial involvement.

Hon. Mr. Elgie: Mr. Speaker, once again, that’s a problem I will be pleased to review for the member.

Mr. Deans: Look at all the problems you inherited from the former minister.

Hon. Mr. Elgie: I must say that even the brief period of time in the office indicates to me that the former minister was an active lady involved in doing very good things. But I do wish to advise the member for Hamilton East that I appreciate his remarks and I will look into them.

[Later]

Mr. Speaker: The honourable the Minister of Labour has indicated that he has some more information for the House. Is it the wish of the House that he present it at this time?

Hon. Mr. Elgie: Mr. Speaker, I would like to bring to the attention of the members, and in particular to the member for Hamilton East that I have now been advised that the Westinghouse strike is settled subject to ratification.

NIAGARA RIVER POLLUTION

Mr. Bradley: A question of the Minister of the Environment.

Is the minister aware of a recent investigation conducted by the Niagara County Health Department of New York state which revealed extremely high levels of toxic PCBs in Gill Creek, which is a waterway which flows into the Niagara River, and of the levels being so high that apparently the sediment from under the water will have to be buried in a special landfill site?

If the minister is aware of this, what action has he taken? If he’s not aware, will he undertake to gather that information from the New York state authorities?

Hon. Mr. Parrott: Yes, I am aware of it. Our staff has been actively monitoring the water in the Niagara River to be very sure that the supply in both Niagara Falls and Niagara-on-the-Lake is safe.

We will continue to do so until such time as there is absolutely no possibility of any danger to those residents of those communities.

Mr. Bradley: A supplementary: Would the minister indicate what the results of the Ministry of the Environment’s investigation have been, whether or not they confirm that there has been seepage into the Niagara River from this?

Hon. Mr. Parrott: I’m not 100 per cent sure I understood that question. If the member is asking me to confirm with him the fact of the origin of the PCBs -- yes, I’m prepared to do so, and will communicate that to him, if we have that information.

Knowing that PGBs are in the water and knowing exactly where they came from aren’t just the easiest of things to do; but within the limitations of our technical ability we’ll do so.

[3:00]

STUDENT ASSISTANCE

Mr. Cooke: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the new Minister of Colleges and Universities. I am wondering if the minister is aware of the fact that the computer processing the OSAP application forms for students in this province has been shut down since August 25, thereby leaving 18,000 students without their applications being processed?

Hon. B. Stephenson: Mr. Speaker, it was on August 29 that it happened. There was a problem. Up until that time $17 million in grants had been distributed to more than 20,000 students, but about 3,500 of those had received less assistance than their entitlement. In addition, $36 million of loan authorizations had been issued by that time. The computer is functioning again, as of the beginning of this week, and it is anticipated that by the end of the week the problems will be resolved and that indeed all of the incorrect levels of remuneration which were submitted will be corrected by the end of September.

I am aware that the Ontario Federation of Students has suggested -- I think that is the right word -- that there be some program for assisting the students who may be in difficulties right at this time and I am meeting with the Ontario Federation of Students within the next few days and I will be pleased to talk with them about this.

Mr. Cooke: Supplementary.

Mr. Speaker: Supplementary.

Mr. Cooke: Mr. Speaker, may I first say that I am surprised that the minister says it was the 29th and that the computer is now running, because at 1 o’clock this afternoon when I talked to her staff the computer was not running.

I wonder if the minister has any plans to supply these students with emergency loans in special hardship cases; and I also would like to ask the minister if she has any explanation at all as to why the applications for OSAP are down 25 per cent from last year. Would she not agree that it is a result of a crummy program?

Hon. B. Stephenson: No, no, Mr. Speaker, I most definitely would not. First, I would not use such language in this House; and secondly, Mr. Speaker, I would not agree on the basis of the argument presented by the honourable member. I think that there are probably several reasons for the reduction in the numbers of applications, and it is considerable. There were approximately 60,000 applications received by September 1 of this year. There were 80,000 applications received by the same date last year. I think that the stricter criteria probably have something to do with it.

I think that the students are a little less anxious to get into the program perhaps than they were; I think they are waiting to see what is going to happen to them. I think there has been a great deal of negative criticism of the program by certain student organizations --

Mr. Cooke: And it is deserved.

Hon. B. Stephenson: -- which has produced a good deal of apprehension on the part of the students; and I think the declining enrolment within the post-secondary institutions has also had something to do with it.

QUEBEC POLICY ON CONSTRUCTION HIRING

Mr. Roy: Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs -- is that what we call it or is it federal-provincial relations? It involves the continuing dispute on the border areas with the province of Quebec and pertaining more specifically to the construction workers and, later on, the heavy-equipment operators from the Ontario side. I would like to ask the minister whether he is involved in that problem. Has he taken up discussions now that this new ministry has been created? And would he advise the House on the status of the situation especially involving the construction workers?

More specifically, would he comment on the remarks made by the Ministry of Labour in the province of Quebec where apparently they suggested that they establish what they call neutral zones in the border areas?

Hon. Mr. Wells: Yes, I have been involved in this. The bill that was introduced was introduced by my colleague the then Minister of Labour (B. Stephenson), and at the time of the introduction either the minister or the Premier (Mr. Davis) indicated that we introduced the bill reluctantly, feeling that it was necessary because of the action caused by the Quebec bill, but we wished the Prime Minister of Canada to consider asking the Supreme Court of Canada whether the Quebec bill was within the constitution.

There is also a story around that somehow there was a suggestion from the province of Quebec, through the federal Minister of Labour, that the compromise solution would be the establishment of neutral zones in the Ottawa Valley. It’s my understanding that that proposition was never officially and formally put forward to this government by the province of Quebec. As far as we know, it is not agreeable to the province of Quebec. It, indeed, was a compromise solution, as I understand it, that was worked out by staff in our government as a way around the Quebec bill to get over the difficulties being caused in the Ottawa area.

Certainly it would have been agreeable to our government but it has not been officially put. My understanding is that it is not agreeable to the Minister of Labour in the province of Quebec. Therefore, where the situation stands is that we have been waiting for the Prime Minister of Canada to respond to our request that the Quebec bill --

Mr. Sargent: Why don’t you act yourself?

Mr. Sargent: There are hundreds of jobs up our way being frozen.

Mr. Sargent: What do you call quickly?

Mr. Roy: Supplementary: I would like to ask the minister, in view of the fact that the story is going around about the neutral zones -- and I think the Minister of Labour, Mr.

Johnson, was quoted as having suggested that -- and in view of the fact that the federal government apparently is not prepared to refer, not the bill but the regulations, as I understand it, to the Supreme Court of Canada for decision as to the intra vires as to provinces; in view of that, and if we do proceed with the legislation here at this level, as unfortunate as that might be, would the minister give some consideration to the suggestions my leader made back on August 22, and include in that bill protection for the heavy-equipment operators on the Ontario side who are faced with severe restrictions by the Quebec government involving, first of all, the licensing, their sales tax and finally the fact that they cannot put in a bid on a government contract unless their office is in the province of Quebec?

Hon. Mr. Wells: I, of course, have been considering that matter also. I might say that I did receive the letter from the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. S. Smith) on this matter. I was happy to have his letter supporting something that I have been told day in and day out by the Minister of Housing in this government (Mr. Bennett) that there was a problem with the heavy-construction industry down there.

Mr. Roy: Or the potential mayor of Ottawa.

Hon. Mr. Wells: He would probably make a very good mayor of Ottawa also.

Mr. Ashe: Maybe Vanier, Albert; maybe Vanier.

Hon. Mr. Wells: There is one thing you can say about that honourable member, he always has the interests of eastern Ontario and the Ottawa area at heart.

Mr. Roy: I hear he is running for your ministry.

Mr. S. Smith: Was he talking about you when he said he was staying because of the instability of the government?

Mr. Warner: You shouldn’t punish Ottawa that way.

Mr. Conway: He is just afraid of Marion Dewar.

Hon. Mr. Wells: There is no question that this is a very serious problem. The people of eastern Ontario want action, and the action they want is retaliation by this government. I think we all would normally feel that way firstly, but we all also agree, as I think the member’s leader indicated in his letter to me, and as I feel, and as I know the Premier of this province feels and the member feels, that the boundaries between provinces should be completely open. Really, the answer to the problem is to get rid of the problems that are being caused in Quebec --

Ms. Gigantes: You want reciprocity.

Hon. Mr. Wells: -- and not to have retaliation from this province, although it may come to that --

Ms. Gigantes: That is what you are building up to.

Hon. Mr. Wells: -- as we have in the bill that is already before this House. We are having a meeting on September 25 and 26 of intergovernmental affairs ministers from all the provinces. At that time I will also be meeting myself with the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs from the province of Quebec. It will be the first time that I have had an opportunity to discuss these issues face to face with him. I intend to do that at that particular time. I want to assure members that one of the top priorities that we have in this government is to bring some resolution to the real serious concerns and criticisms that those people have in that part of the province.

Ms. Gigantes: You had better get your facts straight first.

Mr. Cassidy: I am very concerned when the minister says that the people of eastern Ontario want retaliation, because what they want is open borders both ways. That has been the effort all along which we have been trying to push.

I would like the minister to explain why it is that he now indicates that the government is agreeable to the possibility of a neutral zone along the frontier when effectively that was rejected in the mid-August letter from the Minister of Labour to the Minister of Labour in Quebec.

Interjections.

Mr. Cassidy: Why is it that if this is now the position of this government Ontario has not taken the initiative, in view of the very clear indications coming from Quebec City that they are interested in talking about that kind of compromise?

Hon. Mr. Wells: I would be very pleased to have my friend indicate in very exact details where the idea of a neutral zone has been rejected by this government.

Ms. Gigantes: It has; in the former Minister of Labour’s (B. Stephenson) letter.

Hon. B. Stephenson: It was not rejected.

Ms. Gigantes: It was so.

Hon. B. Stephenson: Then you can’t read.

Hon. Ms. Wells: It has not been rejected. I heard that the Ottawa Citizen had indicated in an editorial that it had been rejected by this government. That was not so; that is not true.

Ms. Gigantes: Have you read that letter?

Hon. Mr. Wells: That is actually not factual. The neutral zone idea was generated within this government as one of the ways this matter could be settled.

Mr. Martel: Another Gaza strip.

Hon. Mr. Wells: It was after that was not acceptable to any of the parties that the Premier of this province wrote the Prime Minister of Canada again and said it is not possible for us to come to any agreement. If there had been any chance that that neutral zone manner of settling would have been agreeable, we wouldn’t have had to write that letter, and we would probably be on the way to a settlement. But we do not have that. I would just tell the member that that editorial was not correct and the idea of our rejecting the neutral zone area is just not factually correct.

Ms. Gigantes: You have got it backwards.

Hon. B. Stephenson: On a point of personal privilege, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Warner: You’re kidding.

Hon. B. Stephenson: It is entirely incorrect that the idea which this province put forward first for the consideration of the province of Quebec regarding the possibility of specific and special zones along the borders of Quebec and Ontario was ever rejected by this province. It has not been rejected. It was put forward as a route to finding a solution to the problem. It was not ever acceptable apparently to the province of Quebec.

Ms. Gigantes: It’s your letter. This is going to haunt you.

Mr. Warner: You wrote it.

Hon. B. Stephenson: You read the letter.

Mr. S. Smith: I have a brief final supplementary, if I might, on the heavy equipment matter. Is the minister aware that unless we develop parallel legislation in Ontario pretty soon or solve the problem pretty soon, a number of these heavy-equipment operators will either be going bankrupt this fall or undertaking to move their head office to Quebec or to buy all further equipment in Quebec; all of which would mean quite a loss of revenue for this province since in Quebec they would naturally not suffer the same problem as on this side of the border?

[3:15]

Hon. Mr. Wells: I am very much aware of that. As I said a minute ago, one of our top priorities is to try to find some resolution to this problem to help the heavy-equipment people and others in the Ottawa-Carleton and the Ottawa Valley area.

Mr. Sargent: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker: New question; the member for Scarborough-Ellesmere.

Mr. Sargent: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker: This is very important to my area. I want an answer to this --

Mr. Speaker: The member for Scarborough-Ellesmere with a new question.

NURSING HOMES

Mr. Warner: This question is important to my area. I have a question for the Minister of Health. Since coroner Dr. Cass stated on August 12 in reference to the St. Raphael’s Nursing Home inquest that the inquest “raised enough questions about the nursing home to warrant a royal commission into the Ontario Health ministry’s enforcement of the Nursing Homes Act as well as into the general conditions now existing in nursing homes,” when will the minister begin the public inquiry or will he continue to ignore the serious problems which exist at many nursing homes including, for example, Madonna Nursing Home and MacLaren House Nursing Home in Ottawa?

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: Mr. Speaker, as the honourable member knows, but for obvious reasons will not acknowledge, the ministry has never ignored the problems where they exist in the nursing homes. I think it’s fair to say that the legislation which we have developed in this province over the last number of years, but particularly since the 1972 amendments, has given us some of the most up-to-date legislation on nursing homes anywhere in the country.

Mr. Swart: That’s not what the coroner thought.

Mr. Cooke: But you don’t bother enforcing it.

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: As the member further knows, we are presently engaged in a process to update that even further. Some time ago I released the proposal for new regulations with respect to nursing homes. I have not yet received the member’s comments in particular detail about those changes in the regulations and I would be very pleased to have them and to have his input to that process.

Mr. Cooke: We gave you our comments last year in estimates.

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: If the member has any particular complaints about particular homes, he knows he can refer them to me. He will get a report. He will get exactly the same report I get from the inspectors.

I may say that in the last nine months with the introduction, at my order, of group inspections, we have been able to effect significant improvements in the most troublesome of the homes, a small number of the almost 400 homes in the province. We will continue those efforts to close down where necessary certain homes -- we closed two more this year -- and in the others to effect the necessary improvements.

Mr. Warner: Mr. Speaker, I realize that under the rules the minister isn’t obligated to answer my question and I take it he’s not going to. I think it’s also fair to inform the minister, since he raised the matter, that I don’t see any point in commenting on his recommendations when he’s trying to --

Mr. Speaker: Do you want to ask a supplementary question?

Mr. Warner: A supplementary to my original question: Since the minister publicly indicated on the CBC radio program Metro Morning that he has changed his policy on government secrecy, may I now have the nursing home inspection reports for the last 12-month period for Madonna Nursing Home, Ottawa, and MacLaren House, Ottawa? The latter may now be known as Centretown Nursing Home. May I have those two inspection reports now? Which recommendations will the minister be agreeing with from the coroner’s jury verdict on the death of Mrs. Edythe Gramshaw at St. Raphael’s Nursing Home in Toronto?

Which recommendations will the minister agree with; and on the ones with which he will not agree, why not?

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: We are looking at the coroner’s report. I think some comments have already gone from my deputy minister. If the member wants to go on a general fishing expedition, I’m not going to go along with him. If he has specific questions, he will get specific answers. If the member is prepared to tell me exactly what it is he wishes to know, I’ll be glad to give him the information. That has been my policy all along.

Mr. Laughren: He wants the reports, then.

Mr. Swart: He just asked three specific questions.

Mr. Warner: Will you send me the inspection reports?

POLIO VACCINATION

Mr. McGuigan: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health. In view of the fact that polio vaccines have been distributed through his ministry in the neighbouring counties, and in view of the fact that private physicians in the riding of Kent-Elgin are under pressure from their patients for the same vaccines, would the minister tell us, if these vaccines have not already gone forward, when they will go forward to physicians in my riding?

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: The triad and quad vaccines for those 18 years of age and younger are available to physicians everywhere in the province, so if any physician in the member’s constituency comes to him with a concern about the availability of those, I would suggest that he simply have him or her contact the medical officer of health, since we are using the public health units as our points of distribution for the vaccine.

With respect to the adult vaccines, we have limited the availability of that vaccine to the county in which the outbreak occurred in July and the first three or four days of August, and to the seven surrounding counties which we established as a buffer zone. We intend, once we feel that we have got those eight counties completely covered, to then expand out from that zone in the province, notwithstanding the fact that a national advisory committee on immunization, which met in late August, recommended to the federal government and to all governments that there not be a general program of immunization for adults.

We disagree with that and once we have ensured that we’ve covered the affected county and the buffer zone we will then move away from there to cover the rest of the adult population in the province.

Mr. Mancini: Supplementary: Since the medical officer for the area of Essex county has informed me that there would be vaccine enough for everyone in the community come the first or second week in September, is the Minister of Health now stating that this is not so? If this is what he is stating, could he inform the House exactly when there will be enough vaccine for the whole community?

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: We are working out with our suppliers, the Connaught Laboratories, who are the only suppliers for the Dominion of Canada, the details of their delivery schedules to us. We are also being very cautious that we don’t jump too soon in making the judgement that Oxford and the buffer counties are, in fact, completely covered. I would suspect that it would be another three or four weeks and the vaccine will be available.

Mr. Hennessy: No applause, thank you.

Mr. Conway: Where is your button?

Mr. Hennessy: Supplementary: I would like to know why the polio vaccine was transferred from the city of Thunder Bay down to the southern part of Ontario during the inoculations.

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: The vaccine was pulled back from most of the health units to ensure that we would not run short in the county where the outbreak had occurred, namely, Oxford county, and, as I’ve just explained, the buffer counties surrounding it. This decision was taken on the advice, not only of my own staff in the ministry, the epidemiologist and the personal health staff with the Ministry of Health, but after consultation with the Assistant Deputy Minister of Health for Canada, Dr.

Morrison, whose responsibility it is for health protection, including questions of vaccine supply and the immunization programs, and after consulting with the president and executive director of the Ontario Medical Association. The advice of all three -- my staff, the staff of National Health and Welfare and of the Ontario Medical Association -- was to carry on a program of immunization, first of all, throughout the province for those 18 years of age and younger and then for the adult population in Oxford and the buffer counties.

We did leave, of course, with all of the health units, a sufficient supply to cover travellers to and from the Netherlands, which was the third group and, obviously, a much smaller group in the province.

AIR POLLUTION

Mr. Laughren: I have a question of the Minister of the Environment. In view of the fact that during the last 15 months there have been four specific promises broken by his predecessors, would he agree to speak to the chairman of the resources development committee to ensure that when that committee is debating the question of Inco emissions those hearings be held in the Sudbury basin?

Hon. Mr. Parrott: I suspect that question should perhaps more appropriately go to you, Mr. Speaker, or to the House leaders. I can assure members that I and the ministry are prepared to discuss the issue wherever the members of this House wish to discuss it. It’s entirely up to the committee. If the committee will summon us, we’ll be there and we’ll be there with pleasure.

Mr. Laughren: Carried. Consider yourself summoned.

REPORT

STANDING ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE COMMITTEE

Mr. Philip from the standing administration of justice committee presented the committee’s report as follows and moved its adoption.

Your committee recommends that the alleged improprieties of former Solicitor General George Kerr relating to Assistant Crown Attorney David Price be investigated by the administration of justice committee as soon as possible prior to consideration of estimates.

Motion agreed to.

MOTIONS

SELECT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH CARE FINANCING

Hon. Mr. Welch moved that Mr. McCaffrey be chairman of the select committee on health care costs in place of Mr. Elgie.

Motion agreed to.

STANDING RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT COMMITTEE

Hon. Mr. Welch moved that the standing resources development committee include in its consideration of the annual report of the Minister of the Environment the following matters:

The collection and disposal of liquid waste resulting from industrial operations throughout the province; the abatement program governing Inco in Sudbury; the pollution control measures imposed on the pulp and paper industry, and the global phenomenon known as acidified precipitation.

Motion agreed to.

SITTING OF HOUSE

Hon. Mr. Welch moved that the House continue to sit through the normal dinner period.

Mr. Martel: Mr Speaker, I want to speak briefly against the motion.

Interjections.

An hon. member: Nationalize it!

Mr. Martel: I haven’t decided to nationalize; the government of Ontario has already done that.

We have made a lot of agreements today to make this possible. There has been all kinds of flexibility expressed and give and take on all sides of the House to in fact allow the government to bring that particular motion to expedite getting the workers back to work. We went along with that willingly.

We have a position to present with respect to that bill. We want to do it in an orderly fashion following the usual procedures of the House. We have no intention of filibustering, but we find it offensive, after making all of these agreements, that the government would then push ahead right through the supper hour.

Interjections.

Mr. Martel: Those of us who were here in 1974 for a similar debate well recall that in fact it took three and a half days, I believe, after the legislation was completed to get the workers back to work in totality.

We are prepared to accommodate the government and try to get this bill through. We just find that this type of procedure, which totally destroys all the rules of the House, is simply irresponsible. If you are going to push it through, we think it can get done and if it gets done tonight, and there is some hope it will, that is fine.

Interjections.

Mr. Martel: We are prepared to accommodate. Let me say to the Premier we are prepared to come back tomorrow morning at 10 o’clock if need be to ensure that that gets done.

There is no filibuster. We just think that the manner in which that is being conducted is simply using a sledgehammer to drive home a compulsory arbitration bill and we find it a bit offensive. I would just say to the Premier all it does is create short tempers with that sort of environment that we have to work under.

Interjections.

Mr. Martel: I would just like to proceed apace and see if we can get it done in the time allocated under the usual hours of sitting and be prepared to come back at 10 tomorrow and continue.

Interjections.

Mr. Martel: There will be no deliberate filibuster on this side of the House but we will move our position in a succinct and orderly fashion.

lnterjections.

[3:30]

Mr. Martel: If it takes a little longer -- we would hope it wouldn’t -- but we just think it’s that imperative. We’re tampering with one of the keystones of industrial labour relations in this province -- the right to free collective bargaining. My friends over there, who pretend to be the friends of labour, are so anxious to get this bill though that, as the Leader of the Opposition said, “We’ve got to break this strike.” Well, that ain’t what we’re here for.

Mr. Speaker, I ask the House leader and I ask the Premier to do it in a more orderly fashion.

Hon. Mr. Davis: Mr. Speaker, I completely understand the point of view of the House leader for the New Democratic Party in his exposition of the position his party is going to take and that he wishes the members of his party to have an opportunity to express this.

The concern I have, as the head of government, along with all members of this House, is to reconcile that concern with the concern being felt by thousands of people who at this precise moment do not have a service available to them that I feel is the obligation of members of this House to resolve.

I am not going to debate with the House leader of that party the principles of compulsory back-to-work legislation. None of us likes it.

Mr. Germa: Sure you do.

Hon. Mr. Davis: The honourable member may say we do; but that is just not factually correct. No one would have been more pleased to have had this matter resolved than myself.

But what I have difficulty in understanding is that all of us have made sacrifices in terms of the 6 to 8 o’clock hour. I can assure the honourable member he has many times. So has the Minister of Labour in the past four or five days on two or three issues. The Premier has also missed -- perhaps, very wisely so -- supper hours and even more hours than that in an attempt to resolve certain issues. I don’t think the issue itself is going to be prejudiced by this House continuing to discuss this in an orderly fashion over the supper hour. That’s why I suggest we move ahead.

If I honestly thought the House leader of the New Democratic Party didn’t have his arguments already well in hand, if I felt he needed time, or the members opposite did to further assess the actual wording of the bill, this I could understand. But the members opposite know what they’re going to say. They will be cogent arguments. They will be relevant arguments. I don’t think any of us needs two hours at the supper time to further develop what is to be said.

I’m not minimizing for a moment the importance the New Democratic Party places on this issue -- an importance we do too. It’s something I think all of us in this House would rather not be doing. But we’re here to accomplish something. I think it would not be credible in terms of those people who perhaps do not have the understanding of this House to feel that the legislators of this province, with a vital issue of this kind, whether we agree on it or not, feel we have to have two hours at supper to conduct the orderly affairs of this House.

I honestly say to the House leader that I can understand it; but I really think that in the interests of those people who watch the proceedings in this House we should on this occasion sit through the supper hour and move ahead as best we can with the orderly passage of this legislation.

Mr. S. Smith: Mr. Speaker, I want to endorse what the Premier has just said. This may go down in the history of the Legislature as the great dinner debate.

I find that if this is going to be the beginning of some obstructionist tactics, divisions on first readings and any other type of time-wasting device, I’m very disappointed in the members of the New Democratic Party.

Let me just say one thing about this supper debate. There are hundreds of thousands of people in Toronto who won’t be getting home for supper tonight because of this strike.

Mr. Renwick: Mr. Speaker, before the Leader of the Opposition reduces this discussion to the childish level that only he has the competence to deal with, let us, during the course of the 6 to 8 p.m. usual supper adjournment, keep a little record of just who happens to be filling the seats in the House. Let’s keep a record of just who out of that great sense of emergency and crisis will be in their seats listening to the debate.

If by these remarks I can compel the members of the government, both from Metropolitan Toronto and across the province, and the members of the Liberal Party to be in this House, then we will certainly, through the remarks of the House leader of this party, have accomplished a great deal. By the way, it might be very interesting if all of the ministers of the Crown found themselves in their seats from 6 to 8 o’clock.

It might also be useful if we eliminated from the debate the crocodile tears of sorrow that are streaming down the face of the leader of the government and of the Minister of Labour when they express their concern about the destruction of a right in this province.

Mr. Speaker: Order, order.

The motion is that the House continue to sit through the normal dinner period.

All those in favour will please say “aye.”

All those opposed will please say “nay”.

In my opinion the ayes have it.

Motion agreed to.

QUEBEC POLICY ON CONSTRUCTION HIRING

Mr. Cassidy: Mr. Speaker, on a point of privilege arising out of the question period: The former Minister of Labour made a statement which I am afraid is contradicted by a letter which she wrote to the Honourable Pierre Marc Johnson, Minister of Labour in the province of Quebec, on August 16, 1978. I should just like to read one paragraph of that letter into the record. It says, and I quote:

“As to the free zone concept I might add that it would not appear to me that Ontario’s concurrence would be required for you to extend unrestricted working privileges to Ontario construction workers along our boundary” -- that means Quebec’s boundary. “However,” she said, “I want to emphasize that I would be extremely reluctant to support any solution which restricted such rights to any limited geographic areas along the boundary, nor could I agree that any such solution be conditional on legislated guarantees by the province of Ontario.”

Mr. Speaker, that is clearly in contradiction to what she has since said.

Interjections.

Hon. B. Stephenson: Mr. Speaker, if I might respond, I would hope that the honourable leader of the third party would read what I wrote with care. We did not reject the proposal which we had made in the first place -- to the government of the province of Quebec.

The Minister of Labour of the province of Quebec in his response to me of a few days earlier, as a result of a telephone call which I made to him in order to try to get the discussion back on the road, did mention nothing about any potential zone along the borders of the province. I was concerned that he had not mentioned these because it seemed to me that this was one route that we could pursue. But I wanted to make him aware of our specific concerns about narrow geographic borders.

I felt it was entirely correct to suggest to the Minister of Labour for the province of Quebec that indeed that province could extend the border of Quebec to include workers along the Ontario border without any action on the part of the province of Ontario. This is something he obviously had not considered before.

But I certainly did want him to know that this province was not in any position, nor did we feel it was necessary, to guarantee employment in Quebec construction workers when the record shows that over the last 10 years, for every one construction worker from the province of Ontario working in the province of Quebec there have been at least five from Quebec working in the province of Ontario. If that isn’t a guarantee, I don’t know what it is.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

TORONTO TRANSIT COMMISSION LABOUR DISPUTES SETTLEMENT ACT

Hon. Mr. Elgie moved first reading of Bill 141,

An Act respecting Labour Disputes between the Toronto Transit Commission and Division 113, Amalgamated Transit Union, Lodge 235, International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers, and the Canadian Union of Public Employees, Local No. 2.

Mr. Speaker: Shall the motion carry?

Some hon. members: No.

Mr. Speaker: All those in favour of first reading of the bill will please say “aye.”

All those opposed will please say “nay.”

In my opinion the ayes have it.

Call in the members.

Mr. S. Smith: On a point of order.

Mr. Speaker: What is the point of order?

Mr. S. Smith: The point of order, Mr. Speaker, is since a division is being requested on first reading, can we not simply vote on division without necessarily calling in the members at this time? Let them be on record without delaying the proceedings.

Mr. Speaker: There is nothing out of order.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: You can agree to a limit, of course.

The House divided on the motion for first reading of the bill, which was approved on the following vote:

Ayes

Nays

Ashe

Auld

Baetz

Belanger

Bennett

Bernier

Birch

Bolan

Bradley

Breithaupt

Brunelle

Campbell

Conway

Cunningham

Cureatz

Davis

Drea

Eakins

Eaton

Elgie

Epp

Gregory

Grossman

Haggerty

Hall

Handleman

Havrot

Henderson

Hennessy

Hodgson

Johnson

Jones

Kerrio

Lane

Leluk

Maeck

Mancini

McCaffrey

McCague

McEwen

McGuigan

McKessock

McMurtry

Miller, F. S.

Miller, G. I.

Newman, B.

Newman, W.

Nixon

Norton

Parrott

Peterson

Pope

Reed, J.

Rhodes

Riddell

Rollins

Rowe

Roy

Ruston

Sargent

Scrivener

Smith, S.

Stephenson

Sterling

Stong

Sweeney

Taylor, G.

Taylor, J. A.

Timbrell

Turner

Van Horne

Villeneuve

Walker

Welch

Williams

Wiseman

Worton

Yakabuski -- 78.

Breaugh

Bryden

Cassidy

Charlton

Cooke

Davidson, M.

Davison, M. N.

Deans

di Santo

Foulds

Germa

Gigantes

Grande

Laughren

Lawlor

MacDonald

Mackenzie

Makarchuk

Martel

McClellan

Philip

Renwick

Swart

Warner

Young

Ziemba -- 26.

Ayes 78; nays 26.

[4:00]

Hon. Mr. Welch: Mr. Speaker, at this point, notwithstanding the provisions of the standing orders, may we have the consent of the House now to call second reading of Bill 141?

Agreed.

TORONTO TRANSIT COMMISSION LABOUR DISPUTES SETTLEMENT ACT

Hon. Mr. Elgie moved second reading of Bill 141,

An Act respecting Labour Disputes between the Toronto Transit Commission and Division 113, Amalgamated Transit Union, Lodge 235, International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers, and the Canadian Union of Public Employees, Local No. 2.

Mr. S. Smith: Mr. Speaker, I intend to be relatively brief since I think the important work that is before us is perfectly obvious. What we have to do is move as swiftly as possible to end the Toronto Transit Commission strike which is presently in effect.

My feeling about the situation is that we are taking a very important step by intervening so soon. I believe that the implications of this quick intervention, which intervention I certainly applaud and I am happy to participate in, will be felt some years down the road and will also be felt in the other services in the public sector which will he negotiating contracts in the not too distant future.

1 also believe it is very important that we recognize that a willingness on the part of government to step into a strike early in a sense changes the rules for public sector bargaining in a way which in my view is healthy, and in the view I guess of others is unhealthy. But it does change the rules and we do have to recognize that in intervening early we are creating a certain atmosphere in future negotiations within the public sector.

Mr. Deans: By intervening at all you are creating an atmosphere -- a bad atmosphere.

Mr. Eakins: Go back to fighting fires. Come on.

Mr. S. Smith: I think, frankly, it is a useful intervention and that the implications of this early intervention can be very helpful, provided we learn the proper lesson from it.

First of all, let us deal with the strike itself. Why has it been necessary to intervene? I think it is perfectly obvious. The process of collective bargaining did not produce a solution although I may say the two sides appear to have been rather close to each other at the end. In fact, depending on how one looks at the figures and what expectations one might have about inflation, arguments can be made that as much money could have been obtained or paid out, depending on how you look at it, under one side’s suggestions or formula as on the other side’s, but with different implications for future years.

I don’t want to go into those details -- that is not our job -- but the fact is the two sides were rather close together, looking at this matter from an historical perspective. I feel that to let a strike continue, to let it go on day after day when there is really little purpose to be served by so doing, is surely not a very reasonable way for the Legislature to behave.

I point out to the House that it is not just an inconvenience and a waste of energy and so on to be tied up in traffic and all that. That is difficult, but it is also a strain on the economy at a time when our economy can ill afford such strain.

Ms. Gigantes: That’s the way with all strikes.

Mr. S. Smith: More important than that, and one doesn’t wish to be melodramatic or in any way exaggerate these matters, but it can be a matter of life and death. Emergency vehicles do have to make their way through this tangled web of traffic that we see.

We do have elderly persons who need to obtain help from time to time. We have the sick, the infirm, the handicapped, who depend upon the public transit and who also depend upon other forms of transit being able to move swiftly through the streets of Metropolitan Toronto.

There are a lot of people who find it necessary now to walk long distances in order to get to their commuter train,

whereas their previous habit was to take the subway. In many instances, these are people who may not be in shape for that kind of walking. Although we may say they should be, in many instances they are not, and I would not be surprised if a number of serious illnesses and serious incidents occur during the course of any transit strike in a metropolitan centre of this kind.

Interjections.

Mr. S. Smith: I feel it is a matter of the utmost importance to recognize that we have designed the city of Toronto -- and this government has played some role in that, not always totally constructive, but some role -- to be more dependent upon public transit and less dependent upon the automobile. We have not permitted expressways to crisscross the city, we have not permitted the widening of certain roads, because we have specifically wanted Toronto to be more oriented towards public transit.

And that has happened. In fact, the people of Toronto are right now far more dependent on public transit than those in many other centres. Unlike Los Angeles, where you have expressways criss-crossing the entire city and where perhaps a public transit strike might be a little less noticeable, in this city and in this metropolitan area a public transit strike is extremely important.

It’s also extremely important for many of my own constituents in Hamilton who come to work in Metropolitan Toronto and use the facilities of Gray Coach to do so. As the members know, GO services from that part of Ontario are operated by Gray Coach and, consequently, are affected by this strike.

It is obvious we are going to have to take very seriously the whole question of strikes in the essential public services. The definition of what is an essential public service is something that will have to occupy this House, either now or in the near future.

It’s evident that what may have been an essential service at one time nowadays requires redefinition. There are some services that may not have been essential in the old days which have become essential because of the way we have constructed our complex and difficult-to-manage society.

Interjections.

Mr. S. Smith: It seems very clear to me that we are going to have to have certain ways of proceeding in the public sector different from the private sector. It is clear that in the private sector a strike will have a certain economic consequence for management and for the worker. In these circumstances it might be expected that to permit a strike to be prolonged will allow the natural and expected economic effects to occur and will allow, in some way, a natural economic resolution to occur.

Although even in the private sector we frequently find, and I’m sure most people would agree, that strikes can be paralysing in one-industry towns, of course they’re always a source of tremendous social and economic problems to both working people and the economy and management whenever they occur.

The record of strikes in this country over the last decade has not been a happy one. It has been one of the reasons, although perhaps only a small reason, but one of the reasons for our rather poor international performance, economically speaking.

Interjections.

Mr. S. Smith: But in the public sector you don’t have that particular kind of economic weapon that can be exercised against management. You have instead, simply, the public held as hostage. Consequently, there has to be some better way of going about bargaining in the public sector than what we have seen up to now.

Interjections.

Mr. S. Smith: I feel that in fact this day is not the time to consider in great detail all the implications of public sector bargaining in Ontario. But I do hope there will be an opportunity, and perhaps the Premier or the Minister of Labour might consider this, for us to debate this very important matter, becoming steadily more important.

Today, I think the objective that most reasonable persons would keep in mind as the prime objective would be to move as expeditiously as possible to end the strike and not to stand here listening to our mellow tones and our brilliant political philosophies, but to make a reasonably brief statement --

Interjections.

Mr. S. Smith: -- and to move on with the matter at hand, which is surely what we all want to do. I recognize that the matter of having one’s dinner seems to take a higher priority for members of the NDP than the settling of this strike. Fortunately, the government and the official opposition both feel somewhat differently about these matters.

Interjections.

Mr. S. Smith: Mr. Speaker, I would say to you that the time has come for a different method of settling disputes of this kind. I would bring to your attention a matter which I brought to the attention of the Minister of Labour and which he had already been dealing with, and that is the technique of final offer selection.

I was rather surprised to find in my discussions with the press and in talking to various citizens that there is really not very much understood about that particular method. It is still a little-understood method of settling labour disputes but I think it is a very important method for us to look very seriously at, particularly for public sector bargaining, although it need not be restricted to that.

I realize that there already exists the possibility of using it. In fact, I believe in the community college dispute it is already being used but, generally speaking, as pointed out quite correctly by the minister, it is a voluntary matter. I am suggesting that it become a regular way of proceeding.

Why do I say that? Let me explain. Here I want to come to the point I made earlier --

Mr. Foulds: Make it clear that it is an arbitration proceeding.

Mr. S. Smith: -- that by the movement into this dispute so early we are signalling to a good many public sector bargainers that we will be moving early on future disputes. If they anticipate that their dispute is going to end up with the conventional form of arbitration, the natural response will be for both parties to present rather extreme views, figuring that ultimately the strike will (

a) be stopped early and (

b) be sent to conventional arbitration.

As long as people begin to believe that their strikes are likely to be done with impunity inasmuch as they will be stopped early and, secondly, they will be ended by conventional arbitration, the natural response will be for the two sides to present their point of view in extreme form. If they figure that arbitrators tend to choose somewhere in the middle, people will naturally be reluctant to yield ground from their position before the arbitrator actually finds his middle ground. Each side will conserve to itself as much ground as possible, figuring that the arbitrator is likely to pick something in between.

That is the problem we have with the conventional form of arbitration. When you signal to the workers that you are going to send them back to work early --

Mr. Cassidy: If you are opposed to compulsory arbitration, then oppose the bill.

Mr. S. Smith: -- you tell them they can strike with some impunity. When you signal the solution will be regular arbitration, you also signal to both sides to hold back their best offers until much later on.

Mr. Foulds: Why are you filibustering on this bill?

Mr S. Smith: If, however, they know at the beginning that they are both going to have eventually to put forward their best final offer and that a selector will have to choose one or the other, both sides are much more likely to be reasonable from the very start and to present offers which are much more reasonable because ultimately if they eventually produce as their final offer an unreasonable one, at that point they risk losing everything. So both sides are likely to be far more reasonable in their bargaining process and very likely to bead off strikes before they occur.

I believe the government should make a strong statement that it intends to use final offer selection in future public sector disputes so as to encourage a much more reasonable and conciliatory attitude on the part of both management and labour from the very start in their bargaining procedure. I think that would be a real step forward in Ontario and would set the pace for Canada which undoubtedly would follow our lead in this regard. I would like to see a strong statement made at this time.

[4:15]

There are a number of amendments which I could put to this act but it is obvious from what the minister has said and from the continual barrage of interjections on the part of the rather embarrassed people in the soon-to-disappear third party that neither the government nor the members of the increasingly irrelevant New Democratic Party will vote for any amendment to bring in final offer selection in this case. Under these circumstances, I think it would be a form of --

Interjections.

Mr. S. Smith: Give me a drink, somebody. They’re just a bunch of idiots.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Order. Does that complete the remarks of the Leader of the Opposition?

Mr. S. Smith: No, I feel I would like to continue my remarks, Mr. Speaker. Although I would like to be favoured with the possibility that you might hear my remarks, that perhaps is not as important as the possibility that I might hear my remarks, which has been quite impossible up to now with the constant barracking from the benches of the NDP. I would ask you to keep order, if it is possible to do so with such disorderly people, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Deans: You have to suffer listening to yourself.

Mr. S. Smith: I have a number of amendments prepared, but since it is obvious that these amendments would, in fact, fail to carry then it would serve no purpose for me to bring these forward under these circumstances. It would only delay matters.

Interjections.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order.

Mr. S. Smith: I realize they haven’t had their supper, but it’s only 4:15. Perhaps the cackling and the sounds I hear from the left are just their stomachs rumbling in anticipation of the supper hour. I’m not sure.

Mr. Breithaupt: No, that would be gurgling.

Ms. Gigantes: When we start to chew you up, you will feel it.

Mr. S. Smith: As I have attempted to say before being interrupted so many times, Mr. Speaker, since it would serve no purpose but to delay matters, I will not put these amendments forward. I would suggest to the government that it make a very clear statement that, in fact, final offer selection will be the way to conduct public sector bargaining for the next year or so, so that people will be prepared for that and will bargain with that in mind.

There is another problem and it’s touched on by the minister. There are very few people in the labour movement today who fully understand final offer selection, as I said earlier.

Interjections.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order.

Mr. S. Smith: There may be reason to dispute my statement, but since my statement comes from an interview I had this morning with the president of the Amalgamated Transit Union, and that is the point of view he expressed to me, I felt I could share it with the House.

Mr. Renwick: Why don’t you get back to the principle of the bill?

Mr. S. Smith: Among the rank and file, it may be, as the minister pointed out -- and this is something we’ve certainly considered and I discussed with the president of the union today -- among the rank and file it may well be that since they do not yet have much experience with the final offer selection process, it is conceivable that there would be an instance where if the selector were to choose the management-package final offer as opposed to the labour-union-package final offer, it would be taken not as a form of conciliation or arbitration but as an outright defeat.

Under those circumstances, which would indicate a misunderstanding of the procedure, it could in fact lead to some difficulty.

Nonetheless, I think this would be an appropriate case because the two sides are already so close together, and in fact evidence can be presented that more money, as I say, would change hands in some ways under the TTC formula than under the labour union formula. But given the fact that the two sides are so close together, the fact is that this would be a good case for final offer selection.

Be that as it may, and given the lack of support at this time, all I can say is that we should use this technique in the future and I hope the government will seriously consider that.

Interjections.

Mr. S. Smith: I feel that in

summary the situation with the Toronto Transit Commission strike is an unfortunate one. It has inconvenienced and, as I say, even endangered many people in Metropolitan Toronto. It is harming the economy. The Premier is to be commended for moving swiftly in this matter after making quite an effort to bring the two sides together. I feel that he has done what I, in his place, would have done as well. Therefore, I can only support that.

I feel, therefore, that I can bring my remarks to a close by promising the support to move this matter through as expeditiously as possible. We are prepared to sit here to whatever hour is required in order to get the matter dealt with as quickly as possible, and the government certainly has our support in this way.

We may, at some future point in the discussion, have some comments as various amendments are brought forward. We may have certain comments, as I say, on possible amendments of our own. But at this point I feel that there would be no point to bringing forward the original amendments that I spoke on earlier regarding final offer selection. Therefore, I will conclude my remarks.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Before recognizing the next speaker I would just like to inform the members that for their pleasure and for their comfort the dining room will be open at 5:30 p.m.

Interjections.

Mr. Cassidy: Mr. Speaker, if the members of the other two parties actually stay here during the dinner hour, as they have committed themselves to do, the deficit of that dining room is going to be more in a day than it is normally in a month.

Interjections.

Mr. Cassidy: I want to begin, Mr. Speaker, in talking to this bill, by expressing concern for all the people in Metropolitan Toronto who have been affected by the transit dispute which has been going on in the city since Monday. The people in Metropolitan Toronto have been having serious difficulties in getting to work, and we understand that they have been inconvenienced substantially because of the dispute -- the people who use Gray Coach lines even more.

But I am also concerned, Mr. Speaker, at the destruction of a fundamental freedom in our society, the freedom of collective bargaining, in which we are being asked to participate with the bill which has been placed before the Legislature today. When the disruption which exists in Metropolitan Toronto has been created in a labour dispute over a difference of only 12 cents an hour, which was the difference that existed in the negotiations over the weekend, we believe that this strike should not have had to occur.

We believe that if the TTC had been made to bargain in good faith through the course of the weekend, this strike would not have occurred, and we would have a settlement today, and the Legislature would not have had to be brought back.

What we can see though is that from February on this dispute has been provoked -- this strike has been provoked deliberately by the TTC management, because of the fact that they set themselves a limit to which they would bargain, and no more, and they did not agree to bargain in good faith and they were not made to bargain in good faith by the new Minister of Labour, by the Premier, with the Minister of Transportation and Communications or anybody else who has an involvement at the provincial level.

There are some very basic issues which are before this Legislature today, Mr. Speaker, and they go beyond the short-term problems which we recognize the people are suffering in Metropolitan Toronto today. The issue is whether you make collective bargaining work in this province, or whether you substitute some other system of settlements that are dictated by management, of settlements that are dictated by arbitrators, or of settlements that are dictated by this Legislature itself.

I cannot believe, after all of the efforts that so many people with so much goodwill have tried to make to find alternatives to the system of collective bargaining, that somehow within, was it 18 hours of the beginning of the dispute on Monday of this week that the Premier and the new Minister of Labour could suddenly have stumbled on a better way than the collective bargaining system.

This dispute is also over the question of what’s going to happen to public sector workers after the Anti-Inflation Board controls have been lifted from upon them. This is the first major dispute in the public sector since the AIB controls have been lifted. It is also the first major dispute to come before us with the climate which the government is imposing because of its withdrawal of reasonable provincial support for municipal governments. The government, in other words, is almost at the bargaining table itself only it has refused to see that as a responsibility and it has been trying to pass the buck either to the TTC or, in this case, to the workers themselves.

I want to say that the workers are being made the victims of policies that have been drafted in the office of the Premier of this province which were to have an almost inevitable result; the strike that has actually taken place.

Mr. Breithaupt: What policy?

Mr. Kerrio: Now it comes out.

Mr. Cassidy: I want to recall what the transit workers have had to go through. In 1974 and 1975 they had a legislated settlement; they were ordered back to work. In 1976 and 1977, they were controlled by wage controls imposed by Ottawa. In 1978, they are to be legislated back to work again. The pattern which this government, supported by its friends in the Liberal Party, appears to have undertaken is that every time transit workers come to the bargaining table, they will in future know that if they don’t watch out they’re going to wind up back here in the Legislature or in the House of Commons up in Ottawa.

The results are being felt by every streetcar operator and bus driver and maintenance worker here in this city.

Mr. Sargent: Ain’t that too bad? How about three-quarters of a million people?

Mr. Cassidy: Back in 1976-77, the cost of living went up by 8.4 per cent; transit workers had to eat inflation and take an eight per cent settlement. In 1977-78, the cost of living went up by 9.8 per cent, and transit workers had to eat inflation with a six per cent settlement, which meant a drop in their real standard of living of 3.8 per cent.

In other words, what the government has decided is that certain groups of workers, notably public sector workers, are going to carry the burden of its anti-inflation policy in a manner which we find to be inequitable, unfair and destructive of normal collective bargaining relationships which we believe should exist as much in the public sector as in the private sector.

My colleagues will go into the details of the bargaining that has gone on since early spring and which reached an intense pitch over the course of the last month. The essence of the bargaining that has taken place, however, is that it has all been one-sided. Back in February, the TTC announced publicly what it intended to offer in terms of a settlement to the transit workers -- six per cent or $6.9 million. The six per cent that they laid on the table then is exactly the same settlement that they have offered today. They have budgeted by not one iota over a period of six months, over a period of conciliation, of mediation --

Ms. Gigantes: Is that bargaining?

Mr. Cassidy: -- of intervention by the Minister of Labour, of intervention by the Premier himself.

I haven’t heard any criticisms by those gentlemen of the bad faith bargaining which that represents on behalf of the Toronto Transit Commission. I think we should have heard that if the government genuinely wanted to take a neutral role between management and labour in labour relations in the province of Ontario.

On the other side, though, you have the unions. They entered with a 10 per cent wage demand. It was a reasonable wage demand for openers. Over the period of time of the negotiations over money, they have gradually moved down to the point where their total demand -- not just their demands for wages -- but their total demand amounts to 7.3 per cent.

Mr. Sargent: Plus indexing.

Mr. Cassidy: The company began at six per cent and stayed at six per cent for six months; the union began at 10 per cent and came down to 7.3 per cent over that period of time. I want to tell you, Mr. Speaker, it looks to me as though it was the union that was bargaining in good faith and that the company was not bargaining in good faith at all.

The fact that the gap had narrowed to only 12 cents an hour was almost entirely the work of the union. You cannot have collective bargaining if management simply decides what to pay and puts it forward on a take-it-or-leave-it basis. If the new Minister of Labour wishes to conduct labour relations on that basis, I want to tell him that the labour climate in this province is bad now and it will get much worse.

[4:30]

I have had the pleasure and privilege of sitting down several times with Charles Johnson, the President of the Amalgamated Transit Union local here in Toronto which is now on strike, Division 113. Charles Johnson has got to be the mildest and most accommodating union leader I have ever met. Charles Johnson is to the labour movement what the member for York East (Mr. Elgie) may be to the Conservative Party.

Mr. Kerrio: Boy, are they in trouble over there.

Mr. Cassidy: The union has bent over backwards to be accommodating in order to get a settlement and in order to show that it’s willing to bargain in good faith. They have the feeling, which I happen to agree with, that on the other hand, Michael Warren, the general manager of the Toronto Transit Commission, has acted like a piranha in this particular ease --

Mr. Martel: Or worse.

Mr. Cassidy: -- and has been adamantly seeking not to get a settlement but to avoid having a settlement and to have a strike or to pass the buck on to the provincial government.

Mr. Martel: And force compulsory arbitration.

Mr. Cassidy: I knew Michael Warren when he was the Deputy Minister of Housing, and he left the government with the epithets of “able”, “ambitious”, aggressive”, “a real catch for the Toronto Transit Commission.”

Mr. Mattel: Arrogant.

Mr. Cassidy: “Arrogant”, “arbitrary”, “abrupt” and “abrasive” -- you’ve got to add a few adjectives now, Mr. Speaker, because that’s what he’s proven to be over the course of this particular dispute.

Mr. Pope: Like you.

Mr. Cassidy: Oh, I’m very mellow these days.

Hon. Mr. Rhodes: You’ll never change your image. Once a piranha, always a piranha.

Mr. Cassidy: Last spring, Mr. Speaker, you may remember that the chairman of the TTC, Gordon Hurlburt, was criticizing Michael Warren publicly in the press because his profile was too great. But that didn’t stop the high-flying general manager of the TTC, who clearly has been calling the shots and clearly has been steering the situation into a strike.

Mr. Mattel: Why don’t you send him to Outer Mongolia to study subways while we’re getting this resolved?

Mr. Cassidy: The member for Sudbury East and I think that Mike Warren should be sent to study subways -- in Ceylon, wasn’t it, Elie?

Mr. Martel: No, Mongolia is better.

Mr. Cassidy: Mongolia? Okay.

Mr. Martel: We’d get it resolved.

An hon. member: Why send him that far? Just send him to Sudbury.

Mr. Cassidy: That would probably be the single greatest contribution that the TTC could make towards the resolution of this dispute.

We know that this is election year. Maybe the TTC is backing away from taking a tough line or from making a settlement because it’s election year. After all, Paul Godfrey is going to have to face election some time in December or January from 31 or 32 of his colleagues on Metropolitan Toronto council; and maybe Michael Warren may be facing some retribution from the Conservatives themselves because of the embarrassment into which he has put their party as a result of the intransigent way with which he has approached collective bargaining.

Hon. Mr. Rhodes: That’s like Doug Moffatt did to you.

Mr. Cassidy: We happen to think that the job of the general manager of the TTC is to negotiate the best settlement possible that will ensure labour peace and keep the subways and buses running. But Mike Warren came along on August 23 and, in a press conference, said:

“This is the first real test of whether our civic workers are willing to accept settlements that are within the means of taxpayers and users of municipal services to absorb.”

He has taken upon himself the responsibility of the civic politicians of this city.

Back in February, he said what he thought the TTC should offer on the basis of estimates prepared in 1977, which are clearly out of date today, and said at the time that, if need be, he would be prepared to see Toronto take a long strike. That’s not the tune we’re hearing right now. The TTC is not prepared to do that. They come running up here expecting the province to bail them out at a terrible cost to collective bargaining.

Mr. Martel: And the government accommodated them.

Mr. Cassidy: On August 23 as well, when he should have been keeping his mouth shut, Michael Warren said publicly: “The commission is firmly resolved not to exceed its financial limitations this year even if it means a strike.” In other words, they were courting a strike, rather than looking for a settlement.

Let me come back to the weekend: On Friday, the TTC had an offer before the union. The union was asked to come up with a counter offer on Saturday. They did. For 37 hours they waited until something would come back from the management. At 2 o’clock on Monday morning, the TTC came back with exactly the same offer they had given on the Friday evening.

The management was informed that the union was prepared to bring the stewards together on Saturday and prepared to have a general management meeting on Sunday in order to consider a settlement, but that was not a factor as far as the TTC was concerned. They kept the unions out of the Royal York Hotel for the entire weekend before the strike deadline and didn’t bargain in good faith at all.

That, Mr. Speaker, should have been said by William Davis and by Robert Elgie rather than talking about men of goodwill who could not resolve the situation.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Would the honourable member please refer to another member by his riding or his position?

Mr. Cassidy: The honourable Premier and member for Brampton and the honourable member for York East.

Not only that, but the TTC, which was ostensibly bargaining in good faith on this past weekend, told the non-resident bus drivers from the north to get themselves home, deadheaded buses back to Toronto, laid off casual employees, told clerical employees that they were being laid off, took all of the steps necessary, in other words, as though it intended that there would be a strike to take place.

Well, that isn’t good faith bargaining either and now we face a situation of 600,000 people who are out on the streets without transit because of the action of the TTC and because of the failure of this government, in our opinion, to tell Mike Warren and to tell Gordon Hurlburt and to tell Paul Godfrey that it was time they went back to the bargaining table and bargained and that surely in Ontario in 1978 a difference of only 12 cents an hour is not irreconcilable. Surely a difference of only one and a half per cent or so in the bargaining should be reconcilable and resolvable without the duress that is involved in bringing the Legislature back into session.

In 1974 the parties started 21 points apart and when we came back they were still 13 percentage points apart. Today, here, it is only one tenth of that distance and yet somehow the Premier abandons hope for collective bargaining within the space of a few hours.

I want to tell you what I believe is one of the reasons the Premier acted in that way. The Premier was manoeuvred into this by Michael Warren of the TTC and it happened to suit Bill Davis’ political needs.

The Kerr affair last week, which was mishandled by the Premier personally --

Interjections.

Mr. Cassidy: -- was embarrassing, not only for himself but also for his government and was revealing in what it showed about the indecision of William Davis, Premier of Ontario -- indecision because he decided to put partisan political advantage ahead of the integrity of the judicial system and the integrity of this Legislature.

Interjection.

Mr. Cassidy: It was particularly damaging because of the orchestration which had been going on for months for the re-coronation of William Davis at the annual meeting the Conservatives planned to have over the course of the weekend. And instead of the angels playing their harps while Bill Davis wafted into another two or three years --

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Would the honourable member again remember to address another member of the House?

Mr. Cassidy: Instead of the angels waving their harps while the exalted member for Brampton was wafted into some further time as Premier of this province, it was all rather unfortunate -- sordid, almost.

Interjections.

Mr. Cassidy: I suspect, Mr. Speaker, that the political need of the Premier, therefore, in the course of the weekend’s ending was to appear decisive on something that would give him short-term political advantage, and therefore the Premier decided that he would lose his cool, and, within a day, went back to 1974.

Hon. B. Stephenson: Oh, motor-mouth, turn off your switch.

Hon. Mr. Rhodes: Nothing short-term about our political advantage. There is short-term.

Mr. S. Smith: This is a personal attack which I don’t think is warranted.

Mr. Cassidy: The government was prepared to allow the dispute in Metropolitan Toronto to go on for 19 days before they acted. It was a heaven-sent opportunity to look decisive to get the Kerr affair behind and put things back on the rails for the 1978 session.

Hon. Mr. Rhodes: Quit trying to divert the attention for your Metro members and support it.

Mr. Cassidy: Just as the Premier’s judgement was clouded on the Kerr affair, I want to suggest to you that he made a grave error of judgement in the case of the TTC, because of the impact on collective bargaining in the province and because of the impact on public servants of the province of Ontario.

Consider the contrast with 1974 and you can see what I mean when I say that the Premier lost his cool in deciding to act now. How the Premier can conclude after only 24 hours that the potential of the collective bargaining process has been exhausted is beyond me, because one of the aspects of collective bargaining is that the parties sit there at the table, knowing that if it comes to a labour dispute, whether it is a lockout or whether it is a strike, the public is going to put pressure on them and they are going to hurt personally and their members are going to hurt and their profits are going to hurt.

That’s a fundamental tenet of collective bargaining, but the Premier decided to step in after less than 24 hours.

Had the Premier really wanted to be decisive, he would have told Gordon Hurlburt and Michael Warren that the government was not prepared to act and that it wanted this dispute settled with some good faith bargaining for a change.

Hon. Mr. Rhodes: And we’d let the people suffer. That’s your motto: “Let the people suffer.”

Mr. Cassidy: There was not a word of blame for management in the statement that came from the Minister of Labour today. I’m sorry he didn’t put his job on the line right at the start in order to indicate the kind of climate of bargaining he wanted to have across the province at this time.

Hon. Mr. Rhodes: The New Democratic philosophy is to let the people suffer.

Mr. Cassidy: The options for the Conservatives were either to make collective bargaining work or to admit that the province was a partner at