April 28, 1994

GOVERNMENT SERVICES ESTIMATES COMMITTEE

Pursuant to Standing Order 87, Lynn Verge, M.H.A.

(Humber East) substitutes for Jack Byrne, M.H.A. (St. John's East Extern), and

Danny Dumaresque, M.H.A. (Eagle River) substitutes for John Crane, M.H.A.

(Harbour Grace).

The Committee met at 9:00 a.m. in the House of

Assembly.

MR. CHAIRMAN (Oldford): Order, please!

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. I welcome

everyone to the Government Services Estimates Committee meeting. I welcome the

minister and his staff, and at this time I will introduce the committee.

To my left is Walter Noel, the Member for

Pleasantville. The vice-chair of our committee is Roger Fitzgerald, the Member

for Bonavista South. Sitting in for John Crane is Danny Dumaresque, the Member

for Eagle River; Lloyd Matthews, the Member for St. John's North; Ms. Lynn

Verge, the Member for Humber East.

MS. VERGE: Do you have the letter authorizing

me to replace Mr. Byrne?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, we do.

I was going to say that we were doing the estimates

for the Department of Works, Services and Transportation and the Public Service

Commission, but I just found out that the Public Service Commission comes under

Mr. Baker, so it's just the Department of Works, Services and Transportation

this morning.

Before I allow the minister an opportunity to

introduce his staff, I want to say that the format we're using is that the

minister gets fifteen minutes to introduce his staff and his estimates. Then we

go to the vice-chair, who gets fifteen minutes to question the minister and

accept responses, and then we rotate on a ten-minute basis, so that's the way

we'll be going.

Without any further ado, I would ask the minister

if he would introduce his staff. I would like to remind the staff, if they are

answering on behalf of the minister, that they identify themselves each time

they speak because we are being recorded by Hansard.

Without any further ado, Mr. Minister, if you would

introduce your staff and your estimates.

MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

To my right is Terry McCarthy, recently promoted

from highway design to assistant deputy minister after the retirement of John

O'Reilly. To the back right here we have Max Hussey, director of MRD, motor

registration division; Ramona Cole, director of administration and financial

management. Right behind me with the suntan is Harold Stone, from Hawaii, ADM

responsible for tendering and many, many other functions in the department,

central purchasing, government purchasing. To my far left over there is George

Greenland, ADM responsible for the works side of the Department of Works,

Services and Transportation, and yours truly.

Can I continue?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Go ahead.

MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I may not take the full fifteen minutes allotted to

give an introduction to the department, but I'll take some of the time. I'll

just start with my opening remarks. I will soon have my first year anniversary,

in a couple of weeks time, as Minister of the Department of Works, Services and

Transportation. I was appointed just after last May.

Being new to the department - not only new in that

it was the first time being minister, but new to that side of government

services - it was a department in which I had no prior experience, not a great

deal of knowledge about the department, so I made an effort, when I got into the

department, to work with the staff of the department and spend a lot of time

listening, too, because it is a very, very large department.

A few years ago we had the two, the Department of

Public Works and the Department of Transportation, all rolled into the one

department, and I tell you, with the number of employees, approximately 2,000

employees, about $250 million budget, and constitutes about 27 per cent of all

government operations in that particular department, when I go down through the

list of what the department is responsible for, you'll have some idea. It

encompasses a whole area that was certainly foreign to me prior to being

minister of the department.

I would think that over the past year the staff

have had great difficulty, nevertheless they have taught me a lot about the

department. It hasn't been easy for the staff to do that, but I have some

patience and I listen quite extensively.

I feel now today that this department, being such a

large department, is very, very important to the service of Newfoundland in

many, many different areas. We start off, for argument sake, with the works side

of the Department of Works, Services and Transportation where we're responsible

for some 660 buildings across the Province, not only in the construction of new

buildings but the maintenance and the operational, on a day to day basis, of

that side of the department.

With the economic conditions and the financial

restraints placed on the department as a whole, and in particular on that side

of the department, we have to try to maintain the necessary components that

we're responsible for in building, maintenance and services to the people with

less dollars and I guess that's a responsibility placed on all departments in

government. I'd like to say in the same tone from the Department of Works,

Services and Transportation and the work side of it, that we are taking a lead

in government as a department in managing the affairs of both sides of the

department with less monies and providing - I'll boast for the department -

providing more services for the people and a better quality of service. That's

been proven over the last year, a better quality of service in the work side and

in the transportation side.

One of the major things that transportation was in

the process of doing when I got the job as minister was reorganization of the

maintenance, winter maintenance and summer maintenance programs of the depots

right across the Province. There was a lot of fear naturally among the people,

not only within the department but outside the department, that there was going

to be a problem. Naturally when you make changes in the area of any service that

you're giving to the people there's always a concern that there's going to be

less service. Naturally people are expected to be like that but given a fair

opportunity presented over time you'll iron out the nuts and bolts of it and the

growing pains. We proved over this winter that the reorganization in the

transportation side has been proven to be very successful.

I met Terry and - Lou, the deputy minister is not

here this morning as was my indication - we met with a lot of groups of people

and listened to their concerns. That's the one thing that I've tried to bring

into the department that it be an open department and whenever there's a concern

by anybody, any group, any individual or any group of people, for whatever

reason, we're to listen, get their ideas and see if can come to a solution

that's satisfactory to both. We took that in the reorganization of the

transportation side and we continually met with groups of people, town councils

on a one and one basis sometimes and on a group basis at other times but it's

certainly proven to be beneficial for both sides. We got an understanding from

where they were coming from and they understood more, from a one on one

explanation, of what we were doing.

The deputy minister said to me about two weeks ago

before he went on vacation that he's been with the department - this is the

second time around, the number of years in this department but it's the first

time in the years that he's been working with the Department of Works, Services

and Transportation that he's received letters of thank you and appreciation for

the difference and the change in the working of the winter maintenance right

across the Province. I've got the letters, I've got copies of numerous letters.

The reason for this is, number one; the reorganization worked, secondly; the

manner in which we were willing to sit down and listen to the people. To let the

people have an input into the services, an open door policy and willing to

listen and to work with people was a second part of that, making it work, and

appreciation was shown by the general public.

I always took the way in thinking that you can't

please all the people all the time and that's natural but if you do the best job

you can and work with the people, for the most part people will appreciate and

understand, knowing that all the answers can't be yes at all times. So they also

did quite a bit of reorganization in the work side of the Department of Works,

Services and Transportation in bringing the responsibilities of management

together and trying to lessen the management operations in the work side of it

as well as in the transportation side. We're giving a greater responsibility to

the front line people. People who are out there actually doing the work, giving

them greater responsibility and greater accountability and that's proven to be a

success.

We've made some major changes also in improvements

in Mr. Hussey's responsibilities, Max's responsibilities in the motor

registration division. One of the things that I'm very proud of is the photo

license that we recently approved and was brought in by government. That's going

to be beneficial to all sectors of the population. You've got an identification,

you've got a license in your pocket and you've got a picture on it which gives a

positive identification of that individual. It is not only beneficial in the

operation of a vehicle or vehicles, but in travelling, for the travelling

public, in banking and in other things and in spending commercially. Travelling

outside Canada one of the greatest difficulties you have is to try to get some

financial assistance.

Walking into an area now if you are on vacation or

whatever to do business, you have the identification necessary on one's person.

I think it is beneficial. I think everybody is going to be quite excited when

that comes into being. That is supposed to start in January of 19(inaudible)?

AN HON. MEMBER: Starts December 1 (inaudible).

MR. EFFORD: December 1, and be instituted over

a three-year period as your licence becomes renewable. When your licence becomes

renewable starting December 1, I think it will take about three years to bring

that in. What other changes, Max, in your department?

MR. HUSSEY: (Inaudible).

MR. EFFORD: Oh yes. That was the second

important one. Probably more important than the photo driver's licence if you

want to put them on an equal level.

The new rules that we brought in in the impaired

driving regulations. We brought in a regulation now that where you come up on a

roadside test and if you have .05 per cent you will lose your licence for a

twenty-four hour period and have to pay a $100 fine for a reinstatement. If you

lose your licence in that manner three times in a two-year period you would lose

your licence for a two-month period.

I've been quite heavy out in my own District with

that, because people say: Heavens, you can't go to a wedding, you can't go

anywhere and have a drink, one or two or three drinks, whatever. I said: That is

quite correct - if you drive. You can drink as much as you want if you don't use

your vehicle. You can drink a barrel if you want to. We are not saying you can't

drink. What we are saying to the people of this Province is that you cannot

drink and drive.

There is another component in that. There is going

to be an education program in it, there is going to be a strategic....

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. EFFORD: Do you want to explain that one?

MR. HUSSEY: This program is basically a

screening criteria to determine if a person is alcohol dependent. If they've

been suspended several times then this test would come into play and eventually

the person would be subject to a rehabilitation process.

MR. EFFORD: Four departments work together on

this. The Departments of Health, Justice, Education and Works, Services and

Transportation. We feel very confident that over the long term this is going to

prove very beneficial to highway safety and the drinking and driving problem.

Twenty fatalities last year caused through drinking related accidents - and that

is only the fatalities. When I say "only" I don't mean to place any less

emphasis on it. The number of accidents that are caused through drinking, is a

very serious matter. I think the younger people of the day are willing to take

this on and be cooperative more so than the different age brackets, the older

people. Because I'm very impressed with the youth of our Province.

I know in my own area over Christmas there is a

high celebration, and one of the things I noted last year, Boxing Day is a day

which means you usually travel around. I witnessed a group of young people doing

the same thing on Boxing Day, going on what they call serenading with a

designated driver. That shows you now the responsibility of the youth of our

Province. I think this now is going to improve it that much more, and it is

going to be a program working with the youth in the schools. We've got lots of

input from the young people in the Province and I think it is just going to be a

fantastic improvement. There will be very little negative. As the department

said, and as I've said publicly, we don't care about the negative feeling of the

people. This is something that must be done.

I don't want to use up any more time. I can go on

for hours because of the size of the department. I will just quickly give you

some of the things that we are responsible for. Highway construction, public

tendering, government mail services, government purchasing, the ferry system

around the Province, the provincial airstrips, air services, motor registration

division. Am I missing anything? Building maintenance, building construction.

The department has 660 buildings, 221 leases, right across the Island, and on

and on the list goes. You can see the size of the department and the time and

the demand that it puts on individuals working within that department to be able

to properly function and work.

As I have said, we are working with less money; we

are working on improving the operations and bringing it together, lessening

managements' responsibilities and giving greater responsibilities to the front

line people. I want to say in closing that I am very proud of the department,

the whole department, from the top right down for the manner in which the

department is working and continuing under the difficult conditions of dealing

with the needs of people with the amounts of money that are available, and I

think the strain and the pressure under which they are operating on a daily

basis, when you walk through the department you can feel that the enthusiasm and

the morale are at a good level, but I would like to see it higher in the

department, even though it is at an extremely good level under the conditions

that people are working with so I think that over time, all that will be

improved greatly and once we improve that, then the service to the people and

the people themselves will benefit outside from it.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr.

Fitzgerald.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Minister, I fully concur with some of the

things that your department has done and I can assure you that there are very

positive things especially with the drinking and driving aspect of that, and I

think you are 100 per cent right when you refer to the schools, because it is

hard to teach old dogs new tricks. At one time it was an acceptable thing that

you dropped into a hotel and had a drink and then get aboard your car and drove

home. That is not acceptable any more, and I think the only place to change it,

and the place to start, is in the schools, and somewhere we will reach a point

where everybody will understand that it is not acceptable and it will look after

itself hopefully, but there are certainly some good rules and regulations that

you have brought forward there. The only thing that concerns me with the auto

licensing and I think that is now increased; did you say to three years or five

years?

MR. EFFORD: No, the old term was three years;

the new one will be five -

MR. FITZGERALD: The new one will be five.

MR. EFFORD: - but it will take three years

before everybody will be able to avail of the photo licence. Overall it will be

five years.

MR. FITZGERALD: The only thing that concerns me

with that and has been a concern of mine for some time is the insurance part of

it, the automobile insurance part of it. At one time, at least people would have

to go out and purchase automobile insurance and even though it is compulsory, at

least once every three years they will be purchasing a policy; most people are

responsible in purchasing it every year, but it has always been a problem of

mine where people went out and bought automobile insurance and brought forward a

policy number before they had their licences renewed, it was acceptable to go to

registration and after that, many, many times, those insurance policies were

dropped and no follow-up by Motor Registration and people were allowed to drive

without proper insurance on the vehicle, and this is something that I think

should be better correlated between insurance companies and Motor Registration.

I don't know how we can do it but I know at one time it was a situation,

especially with a younger driver, and I stand to be corrected, but if you

cancelled your insurance somebody would come and take the license plates off

your car and you would have to park it.

I don't think that happens any more and after being

an insurance salesman myself for seventeen years, it always annoyed me, and you

could always see what was happening; and it was never a situation that seemed to

be resolved but it seems like the insurance companies never had a problem with

giving driver abstracts, like getting in touch with Motor Registration and

getting a printout of what drivers' activities were, and I am wondering if there

can be a more passing of information between insurance companies and the

Department of Motor Registration in order to solve that problem because it is a

big problem; there is a lot of people out there today who are driving without

insurance.

MR. EFFORD: One of the things we have been

looking at, and I had an opportunity to speak on a couple of occasions with the

officials of the department that raises concern with all of us, but I think what

we are going to be doing in the near future - and I don't see any reason as you

pointed out, why it can't be done, especially with the computer network systems

that we have today in the process, it makes it very easy to be able to

communicate and have information passed along, but we have a concern about that

also and will be working with insurance companies to see if we cannot set up a

mechanism where, if there is a cancellation of an insurance, the information is

passed along, but it is a legitimate concern.

MR. FITZGERALD: I noticed here also that in the

1994 Budget government will be accelerating the transfer of local roads being

maintained by the department to the jurisdiction of the relevant municipality.

MR. EFFORD: Yes.

MR. FITZGERALD: I wonder if you could expand on

that, please?

MR. EFFORD: Well it is very simple. One of the

problems we are having now right across the island is we are duplicating, the

municipalities, the Department of Works, Services and Transportation is

criss-crossing - something like the school bus system in the Education Division.

We are responsible for in excess of 9,000 kilometers of road. Municipalities are

also doing roads in the same area. So what we are trying to do is, any roads

that we are doing that are in the municipalities we are satisfied to bring those

roads up to a standard that is satisfactory, just not bulldoze people under, we

will go in and meet with the councils and get an agreement, we will either pass

the money over to the municipality to allow them to do it or we will do the

roads up to an acceptable standard and then pass that responsibility over for

future maintenance. We will just give up all responsibility for that road in the

future. It will then become the responsibility of the municipality. Keeping in

mind once the road is upgraded and paved you should get a fifteen to twenty year

life out of that road.

A lot of municipalities are finding this more and

more acceptable. We have had requests, in fact, just yesterday I had a letter

from a community which was passed on to my assistant deputy minister this

morning requesting that we do the road up and they will take it over. We have

not even yet approached this particular community. So the word is getting out,

but it is just a matter of trying to separate and not duplicating, crossing over

the same areas. I will give you an example. The Town Council of Clarke's Beach

where I am from - we do the main road and we go right in through the community

of Clarke's Beach. They have now come pretty close to an agreement - we will

still continue doing the main road, but they will take over what is within the

Town of Clarke's Beach.

MR. FITZGERALD: You are talking about Local

Service Districts as well?

MR. EFFORD: No, because the Local Service

Districts do not have the capabilities to maintain the roads. They do not have

any means of maintenance winter or summer. Just municipalities where they have

the equipment. This will not be forced upon anyone this is going to be done in

agreement. So in other words where a municipality agrees and they have the means

of tendering or the equipment to do their own work.

MR. FITZGERALD: Okay. That was a concern of

mine because I know that several local service districts and community councils

even today cannot afford to look after the local road -

MR. EFFORD: Exactly.

MR. FITZGERALD: - with the cutback in funding

for the roads that we have seen in the past number of years.

Also, it mentions there planning funds of $300,000

are provided for a proposed archives, museum, art gallery, to recognize the

500th. Anniversary of John Cabot's landing. How far advanced is that? If there's

going to be a proposed archives or museum, is there any site or location where

that might take place?

MR. EFFORD: We are in the process now of

awarding that contract to a firm whereby all the programming and planning will

be put in place, and the government will make a decision. We're approaching the

federal government and doing that, so that will be done, I would say, within

several days.

MR. FITZGERALD: Appointing a committee?

MR. EFFORD: No, no, an engineering firm.

MR. FITZGERALD: So has the site been selected?

MR. EFFORD: No, not as yet. That's one of the

things that will be looked at.

MR. FITZGERALD: So that will be something that

will be done by the 500th. Anniversary Committee, or will it be done by your

department?

MR. EFFORD: Oh, the 500th. Anniversary

Committee will play the lead role in selecting. We do everything in

co-operation. Nothing is forced upon anybody, except the Opposition.

MR. FITZGERALD: Contracting out, Mr. Minister,

I have been hearing all kinds of rumours that your department is looking at

contracting out snow clearing in the winter time, and contracting out the

painting of lines, and directional lines and whatever on highways. Is there any

truth to those rumours?

MR. EFFORD: One of the things that we always

do, we're always open to new ideas. We don't like to stop, because once you stop

it starts falling behind, so in any business or any operation you always like to

be at least on the doorstep of moving ahead and improving the operations and the

service to people. We've always contracted out winter maintenance, snow

ploughing and snow clearing in communities right across the Island. We do not

have enough equipment, so where it is necessary, where we don't have the

equipment to do certain areas right across the Province, we contract out to

local contractors, local companies. I think that's good. It gives local

companies an opportunity to get work in the winter months when otherwise their

equipment would be normally tied up, so this is not something new. This is an

ongoing process with the department, long before I got there, and I hope we will

improve it in the future.

As far as the line painting on the highway, one of

the problems that we've got in Newfoundland is the weather. You can only paint

lines on nice, warm days. You can't paint them when it's cold, and you certainly

can't paint them when it's damp and raining.

We got accused last year of not painting the lines

on the roads, and it's a matter of safety. I had numerous calls from all over

the Province. In fact in one area in Labrador, and my friend from Eagle River

can witness that, there was a very serious accident, and loss of life. It was

foggy, and the lines... Those things happen, so what we want to do this year is

ensure that we're going to be able to get the lines done all over the Province

of Newfoundland and Labrador. We've got three machines now, and we're going to

look at contracting one of those machines out to compare it with the success of

the department's operation to privately being operated.

It's just a matter of looking at how we can best do

the work, and when I started off I talked about providing the service for the

people with less money, and the department has a lesser budget than it did years

ago, and the money is not available. The needs are greater, but we have less

money to operate with those needs, so we've got to try to be able to do that in

an efficient manner and provide service to the people, because the one thing, if

you get out of bed in the morning and your road is not ploughed, the first thing

you do is call up and belabor the person in that department, and we're getting

that on a day-to-day basis.

I thought when I was in social services I was

totally consumed by paper work and phone calls with people's concerns, but since

I've gone to this department it is just absolutely unbelievable, but we are

trying to provide service and that may be contracting out some of the work. If

it works out it will be more. If it doesn't, we'll go back and assume

responsibility.

MR. FITZGERALD: You're not looking at

contracting out the whole aspect of snow clearing in Newfoundland?

MR. EFFORD: We're looking at everything.

MR. FITZGERALD: So you may be looking at it?

Okay.

You also mentioned the closing down of some of the

depots -

MR. EFFORD: Yes.

MR. FITZGERALD: - over the past number of

months. If I recall correctly, there have been very few which have been closed

down where you can really judge to see if it's been effective because most of

those depots have maintained their status over the winter months and there is a

situation where you would only close them down as of the end of May, I think it

was, and be closed down until September or October. It is kind of early to

prejudge how successful that program has been.

MR. EFFORD: I don't mean to interrupt you but

it is not early to prejudge. When I gave my opening remarks I gave you an

example - and I can provide copies of the letters that we've got from people

from all areas of the Province expressing appreciation for the improvement in

services for our winter maintenance program and snow clearing. One of the

reasons for that is the change in the mode of operation and closing depots.

You have to remember, back when Newfoundland joined

Confederation we didn't have a very good network of roads across this Province,

so you needed a lot of depots in all areas of the Province. That was back in

1949, and on into the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s. We are now into the 1990s. If you

look at the trunk roads and the Trans-Canada across this Province, we haven't

got too bad a system compared to the rest of Atlantic Canada. We are very proud

of the roads. You don't need the same number of depots that you did back twenty,

twenty-five, thirty years ago. The department worked on this, the team of people

put together within the department. Again, I can't take credit for this, because

this was done before I joined the department, but it proved to be very

successful. I just inherited the success of that. I can boast a little bit about

that.

On the serious side it did work. You can have the

depots in some areas open just to store the equipment. You don't need management

and staff there in those particular areas. We closed those thirty or thirty-five

- thirty-five, but thirty seasonally and five permanently. Is that correct?

AN HON. MEMBER: Five permanently and

twenty-two.

MR. EFFORD: Twenty-two, okay. Again, we are

going to be looking at this, year after year. We are not going to stop. As I

said we can't stop. You have to keep looking and hopefully to improve. This

winter proved to be a success.

MR. FITZGERALD: So there were five closed down

MR. EFFORD: Permanently.

MR. FITZGERALD: - immediately after the

announcement was made.

MR. EFFORD: Five closed permanently, will not

open again, but the twenty-nine -

MR. FITZGERALD: Those were closed down when the

announcement was made?

MR. EFFORD: Oh yes.

MR. FITZGERALD: Okay. The other twenty-two -

MR. EFFORD: Twenty-nine.

MR. FITZGERALD: Twenty-nine were operating over

the winter months. They will now go in and their status will change during the

summer period.

MR. EFFORD: Exactly.

MR. FITZGERALD: Then start over again next

winter.

MR. EFFORD: That is right. Closing down a depot

doesn't necessarily mean it is out of full operation. You can store things, you

can have a salt shed there on that particular piece of property, or you can have

the equipment, but it doesn't have to be managed. You don't need managers in

those. I mean, the truck driver knows very well that he has to get out in the

morning at 4:00 or 5:00 and take over the truck. He doesn't need to be told. You

don't need someone there in four or five different levels of management. What

they have done is they've reduced the numbers of management and given a greater

responsibility and accountability to the people who are actually doing the work.

MR. FITZGERALD: There were very few people laid

off, if I recall, in the closing down of those depots. Most of the people were

transferred to other depots. Is it a situation that the equipment will still be

stored in the depots that they normally worked, or will they be expected to take

them back to the new depot and be there at a certain time and leave at a certain

time? If it is I fail to see where the great savings are.

MR. EFFORD: No. Depending on the area and the

location of the depot equipment will be stored, but don't get the idea that if

you close down one in Bay Roberts and twenty miles away down in Harbour Grace

you have to travel that distance and take that piece of equipment. Equipment

will be kept on site in a lot of areas close to the operation of work. We are

not going to have a situation where people will have to drive three or four or

five hours a day to and from, and only get one or two hours of production. I

have greater confidence in the people who are responsible for setting up this

not to lose sight of that. That was something that people said is happening, but

it is not actually happening.

MR. FITZGERALD: That was the concern that I

had. I know in my particular area the Amherst Cove depot is closed down. It is a

fair drive over to the other depot that has been recognized. I think a lot of

people would be happy to hear that, because that way they wouldn't have the

longer drive in the morning and they wouldn't have the longer drive back to

their depot and losing valuable time.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Fitzgerald. Mr.

Noel.

MR. NOEL: No questions, thank you.

MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Noel.

MR. NOEL: I'll let the minister off with that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Verge.

MS. VERGE: I'd like to ask the minister about

the current topic of the routing of the new four-lane divided Trans-Canada

Highway in Pasadena.

MR. EFFORD: Surprise, surprise.

MS. VERGE: The minister recently received from

the Pasadena Town Council a copy of a motion passed by the council, newly

elected. The motion contains a number of recitals setting out the background of

the question of the routing of the new superhighway and then a resolution of the

council that the council affirm its support of a 1990 motion that the council

approves in principle the southern bypass route.

The history that's been summarized in the recitals

includes mention of the fact that there were three independent consulting

engineering studies done about the route of the new four-lane divided highway,

studies that were done from 1983 to October, 1989, studies which all recommended

some variation of the southern bypass as the route of choice. A mention of the

fact that the Town of Pasadena and the Department of Works, Services and

Transportation -that would be after the change of government in 1989 - agreed in

1990 that the southern bypass route would be used in the reconstruction of the

Pasadena

section of the Trans-Canada; mention of the fact that the Town of

Pasadena and the Department of Works, Services and Transportation, by way of a

series of correspondence in early 1990, concluded an agreement concerning

certain matters associated with the construction of the southern bypass route;

next, mention of the fact that the southern bypass route was incorporated in the

Pasadena's ten year municipal plan, 1989-1998, on December 17, 1990.

The Pasadena municipal plan was approved by the

Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs on July 23, 1991, after

consultation with all relevant departments and agencies of the Wells Government,

and published in the Newfoundland Gazette on August 2, 1991. Then it

stated that the Pasadena municipal plan has formed the basis for long range

decision making by the municipality and town residents. So why would the present

minister, last fall, out of the blue, propose a route that none of the studies

had even cited as an option or a possibility when his own government had

approved the southern bypass route just three, four years ago? What has changed?

The terrain is the same, the funding agreement with the federal government is

the same. What has changed in the last three or four years that would warrant

upsetting a decision of the same government?

MR. EFFORD: A very quick answer, the minister.

MS. VERGE: Okay, that's what I thought. That's

the only obvious change. What studies has the minister done to support his

proposal for a John Efford memorial trench along the transmission line in

Pasadena?

MR. EFFORD: Well at least I keep up with Haig

Young, he had a trench.

MS. VERGE: What studies has the minister done?

MR. EFFORD: Common sense.

MS. VERGE: Common sense, okay. Where did the

minister study highway design and -

MR. EFFORD: Pardon?

MS. VERGE: Where did the minister study highway

design and engineering? What are the ministers credentials in highway design?

MR. EFFORD: In common sense I can put my

credentials up against anybody in this government or anybody in this House of

Assembly.

MS. VERGE: Okay. Did the minister take the time

to apply his common sense by sketching out a plan of his proposed transmission

line route?

MR. EFFORD: You look on both sides of me, on my

right and on my left and behind me and many more people who are not here this

morning, and as I said, my deputy minister is away on vacation, a long, deserved

vacation I might add. I never did anything in my life without the full

consultation of the people working around me, and when I said I used common

sense, I did use common sense, I sought the advice of officials of my

department, in long, detailed discussions; they put a lot of thought and

planning in this and based together, with all of our abilities - I am not an

engineer, I never studied to be an engineer but I always placed myself in the

position to listen to advice and to learn and to use a great deal of common

sense in making decisions.

All too often decisions are made based on politics,

emotion, irrational decisions and not for all the right reasons, so I have to

look at all of those decisions. I have to look at the concerns of the people and

how it will affect the people in that particular area. I have looked long and

hard; I have listened to the people of Pasadena and they have very valid

concerns. I am not taking an arrogant position that the people of Pasadena

should not be listened to; I have met with them, I have met with the council, I

have met with individuals, I read all the letters, I have returned answers to a

lot of the letters, in fact most of them. We have looked long and hard at this

and we have read the studies, the previous studies, and the officials of my

department, the Director of Highway Designs sitting next to me has been an

advisor to me as minister, but I take full responsibility for the decisions that

have been made to date and the decisions that will be made in the future. I am

not giving that responsibility or putting it off on anybody else, I am the

minister, I am responsible.

MS. VERGE: Chair, one glaring aspect of the

minister's proposed design is that most people think it is quite the opposite of

a common sense design -

MR. EFFORD: I wouldn't expect anything else

from you.

MS. VERGE: - submerging the new four-lane

divided highway through the middle of Pasadena along a fairly lengthy stretch -

MR. EFFORD: Where is the highway now?

MS. VERGE: - below a level community street

where -

MR. EFFORD: It is going through Pasadena.

MS. VERGE: - at it's deepest point it would be

eighteen feet below ground level. Now, there is nothing similar in our Province.

MR. EFFORD: That's exaggeration.

MS. VERGE: In the heart of Montreal the (?)

Boulevard is submerged and because of the congestion of that urban centre there

might have been a requirement to build that major thoroughfare in that way, but

we are talking about the Humber Valley in Newfoundland; we are talking about a

small, attractive town with a population of 3,500. How does it make common sense

to propose putting a wide, modern highway, eighteen feet below ground level in

Pasadena, Newfoundland?

MR. EFFORD: The MHA for Humber East and

Pasadena is putting a lot of her own words, her own personal words into this and

trying to dress it up and to emotionalize and to exaggerate exactly what is

going to take place in Pasadena.

On the one hand you said all sorts of things in the

House of Assembly the other day in Question Period, tunnel vision and ditching

and everything else; now, this morning you say it is going to be a modern,

four-lane highway, and you are more correct this morning than you have been at

any time in expressing it in the past. It is going to be a modern, four-lane

highway going by the transmission line through Pasadena.

With all of the concerns of the people of Pasadena

fully in mind, each and every shovel or piece of dirt is going to be removed,

replaced and done, the design, the filling, the construction, the landscaping,

the hydroseeding, the buffer zones, the noise potential, every consideration is

going to be taken in the construction of that

section of road by the Department

of Works, Services and Transportation, from the minister's office right down,

and at no time will any concern of any individual be ignored in the construction

of that new, modern, beautifully constructed highway going through Pasadena.

I think, as did the people who had concerns last

year when we re-organized the winter maintenance, a lot of people were afraid.

They called me, we met with them, they said: We are not going to get our snow

clearing, we are going to be stuck here all winter. I think when this road is

built that the people of Pasadena may build a....

MS. VERGE: A shrine for (inaudible)?

MR. EFFORD: A shrine for John Efford out in

Pasadena.

MS. VERGE: Chair, what studies has the minister

done about contending with snow and water problems with an eighteen-foot deep

pit off a highway in Pasadena? Pasadena, for those who may not know, is a flat

community on a large lake. Pasadena gets a lot of snow in the winter.

MR. EFFORD: As does all Newfoundland.

MS. VERGE: Pasadena gets more than the East

Coast. The Humber Valley gets a bit more snow than the East Coast.

MR. EFFORD: I'm glad to say that, yes.

MS. VERGE: How does the minister propose to

contend with snow and water in this new highway, in a trench?

MR. EFFORD: You see, you don't show much

confidence in the Department of Works, Services and Transportation.

MS. VERGE: That is because I don't have much.

MR. EFFORD: You were there for a long period of

time. You didn't change that. You should have improved that when you were there.

You were in government up until 1989. Thank God it is over now. We can bring

some common sense and reality back to the people, and confidence to the people

of the Province. Nevertheless, you leave the impression that there is going to

be an eighteen-foot trench right through Pasadena. I mean, that is wrong.

MS. VERGE: That is at its deepest point.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Excuse me. Time is up.

Mr. Dumaresque.

MR. DUMARESQUE: Thank you very much, Mr.

Chairman. Mr. Minister, a lot of people in this Province do not know it, but I

certainly believe, that probably one of the central elements of building this

Province is the Northern Gulf Route or the Trans-Labrador Highway. A lot of

people in this Province do not realize that this project is the only project in

eastern Canada - I submit, and it is only because I don't have the thorough

knowledge of all of Canada - but it is certainly I would submit the only

economic development project in eastern Canada that government could put money

into today that will have substantial, significant returns in terms of job

creation, in tourism, forestry, mining, general service sector, fishery. It is

the one essential element of transportation in this Province that we don't have

in the largest part of this Province. Certainly we have campaigned on the fact

that it is a number one priority of the Province.

I would like to know, and I'm sure all the people

of Labrador would like to know, what has happened since you became minister on

this critically important issue. In particular, is there now a negotiating team

in place to look at a deal? Has any preliminary work been done on the surveying

of that particular highway? I have talked publicly just recently, I guess, after

the TAGS, the new fisheries program was announced, about the fact that many

people in Labrador could be involved in cutting the right of way for this

particular highway across Labrador. It would be bringing the people in at the

bottom level and building this Province like no other project in Labrador could.

Would you be able to tell me what progress you've been able to make? Maybe if

you could, give us your opinion on that last aspect of the question.

MR. EFFORD: Yes. I agree with everything that

you've said about the need and the importance of the Northern Gulf Route, known

to us originally as the Trans-Labrador Highway. As you know, and most people

know, an extensive amount of study went into the building of that highway. A

report has been publicly released. The option preferred by government is the

road right across connecting the coastal communities. I think it was option one

in the study.

I, personally, as minister of the department, took

the position from the outset that I am in total support of building the Northern

Gulf Route. I think that the people of Labrador long deserve that highway

network that we in the rest of Canada enjoy.

Some people publicly made a comment, imagine

building a highway at that cost for 30,000 people in Labrador. My position was,

whether there were 300, whether there were 3,000 or whether there were 3

million, it doesn't make a difference; the needs of people should be equal right

across this country, and that's the basis on which I operate.

As you already know, there was no funding provided

for the Trans-Labrador Highway in this year's maintenance program. I was

successful in getting $4.5 million from the federal government to do work this

year. It's going to take another $80 million to complete that

section from Goose

to Churchill - another $80 million. It's going to take approximately $500

million to complete the highway right across Labrador, and we don't think that's

unrealistic. I think that's a reasonable amount of money.

We have a team being put in place which constitutes

the Department of Works, Services and Transportation people and

Intergovernmental Affairs, to negotiate all the leading negotiations on that

particular part of the new network, and try to obtain the $80 million from the

federal people.

We just recently gave a full documentation in the

last three days to the Premier, because he personally met with the Prime

Minister. In fact, if I'm correct, he's meeting with the Prime Minister this

week, and that's one of the things which he's talking to the Prime Minister

about. We brought him up to date on all of the things that have taken place, and

he is right up to date, so he can present that information to the Prime

Minister, because the Prime Minister is very keen and very interested in the

Northern Gulf Route not only for the concerns of the people in Labrador and the

benefits economically and socially for the people in Labrador, but the people

who travel right up through the New England States, and the circle route down

through Labrador and St. Anthony and Newfoundland back through. I would love to

be minister of the department and I could make that announcement, because I

think it's going to be one of the greatest benefits to the whole of Newfoundland

and Labrador, the people of the Province, for tourism, for economic development,

and to show that we are fair to all people right across this country.

MR. DUMARESQUE: I don't want to interrupt you,

Mr. Minister, but when you mention that you're trying to get the $80 million now

to do up the road from Churchill to Goose Bay, that's a big concern to the

people on the Coast of Labrador, and I tell you why. We now have, I think, about

seven communities that are not connected by road from Norman Bay to Red Bay, and

it would probably take about $50 million to put a first-class dirt road, gravel

road, to those communities. It would offset about 80 per cent of the Marine

Atlantic freight subsidy to that area and obviously, if I am reading you right,

if we get an agreement of $80 million to do the road from Churchill to Goose

then these people on the coast are going to have to wait another five years

before we even start negotiating for the construction of a road down that way,

and that will be quite unacceptable to people in that area.

MR. EFFORD: You're jumping to conclusions, and

that's not correct. What I said was that the Premier is meeting the Prime

Minister on the issue you're talking about, $500 million to construct that whole

road. What I said was that I've been meeting this past number of months with the

federal minister and talking, communicating back and forth with the federal

minister, on the present highway, because we do have a lot of tractor trailers

coming in there. I was lucky to get $4.5 million this year - well, I got $10

million, which is $20 million cost-shared by the Province.

We put $4.5 million down there this year, more next

year and for the next five years but that was on a 50/50 cost-shared program.

What we're asking for is a better cost-sharing and money to keep on continuing

that but the other meetings that we're holding separate from that, is to

construct highways in the communities and right across Labrador and that's where

the Premier is meeting personally with the Prime Minister on that very issue.

MR. DUMARESQUE: Yes, well -

MR. EFFORD: He's not meeting on the $80

million.

MR. DUMARESQUE: No, well as I said to you,

people are not going to be very happy knowing that there's a negotiation going

on for $80 million when obviously $130 million could complete the road from

Pinware or Red Bay to Charlottetown and the road from Goose Bay to Churchill.

MR. EFFORD: Well hold on now, Danny, that's not

fair. What I said was - and probably I didn't express it in the manner in which

to be clear or probably I expressed it wrong I should say. What I said was that

it requires $80 million to complete that

section of road and that's ongoing. I

mean the

section of road is being used by tractor trailers, being used by

traffic so we have a lot of problems with wash-outs, with bridges and different

things on that

section of road so we have to keep a flow of money coming to

that. We just can't stop that and go and do something else. What we want to do

is do that and at the same time find monies to do the

section to connect those

four communities.

You're talking about the $50 million but get the

$500 million agreement signed on the Northern Gulf Route and then we'll be able

to run the highway right across but you know as I know, you can't do one in

isolation of the other. It's got to be an ongoing discussion on the whole issue.

I'm not going to say we're going to get $5, $10, $15 or $20 million to do the

Churchill to Goose and forget everything else, that's only a part of it, as we

are doing the trunk roads, the Trans-Canada and the community roads in the

Province. One is not done in isolation, it's all done on an ongoing basis.

So I want to send a message to the people of

Labrador - and I thought I had already done that on the public announcement that

I made - that I am in total support of doing what should have been done, what

should be done and it will be done for the people of Labrador, providing a

highway network system equal to anywhere else that they deserve. Those coastal

communities, yes they deserve it.

MR. DUMARESQUE: On a point of order, Mr.

Chairman. I wasn't given a particular time -

MR. CHAIRMAN: About ten minutes on this round.

MR. DUMARESQUE: Ten minutes. I was not given

ten minutes.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Alright, you started at 9:47,

it's now 9:58.

MR. DUMARESQUE: I didn't see it at the time but

obviously -

MR. CHAIRMAN: I keep very close check on the

time.

MR. DUMARESQUE: I'd appreciate it if you'd give

me a bit of notice when I get to that because I had another question on that

very important issue.

MR. CHAIRMAN: We'll try and accommodate you

later on, thank you. Mr. Manning.

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would

like to apologize for being somewhat late this morning coming in.

I'd like to ask the minister a couple of questions

in my ten minute slot. I'm not sure, maybe in the half hour I missed this

morning, some of these questions were answered.

AN HON. MEMBER: You slept in did you? You slept

in?

MR. MANNING: No, I was out in my district

facing some of the problems that are out there.

MR. EFFORD: At 8 o'clock in the morning?

MR. MANNING: At 7 o'clock in the morning, sorry

about that.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: Time doesn't bother this member.

One question I'd like to ask you is about the transfer of local roads from the

jurisdiction of the department to the municipalities. When is this plan to take

place? Is there a time allotted that a municipality will have to respond in

order to -

MR. EFFORD: What local roads are you referring

to, the roads in municipalities?

MR. MANNING: Yes, the roads in municipalities.

When is this supposed to have started or has it started already? Is there a time

on when the municipality has to respond to -

MR. EFFORD: In Liberal districts there's no

time but in Tory districts we're going to do it yesterday.

MS. VERGE: That's the truth.

MR. EFFORD: That's the truth. That's been

ongoing Fabian, with the department for quite some time. This is not just

something new that has happened. The department has been negotiating with

municipalities over a period of years. Wherever there is a duplication of

services by the local transportation depot, and the municipality, in clearing or

maintaining roads, what we are doing is meeting on a continuing basis with

different municipalities. There is no one area designated where we say we are

going to do this next week, next month, or tomorrow.

We will sit down with the municipalities, when

sometimes requests are initiated by them, or sometimes initiated by the

department, and if there is an agreement that can be reached by both parties we

will do the road up to an acceptable standard and they will assume

responsibility for maintenance after that. There is no time slot put out by the

department saying we are going to accomplish this on such and such a date. It is

an ongoing discussion with all municipalities.

MR. MANNING: For example, when the department

reaches more or less a conclusion with the municipality that we are going to do

a road, once that road is completed up to today's standard does the department

wipe its hands totally clear of that road then? Are they completely clear of

anything to do with that road, like snow clearing, everything?

MR. EFFORD: If the agreement is reached between

the municipality and the department of a

section of road within their

municipality we will bring the road up to an acceptable standard, and that means

pavement, to their standard, or we could pass a sum of money over to the

municipality. Either way, whichever agreement is met then the responsibility for

the total maintenance of that road in summer or winter, or whenever, becomes the

responsibility of that municipality. That is the purpose of doing it, otherwise

we would not do it.

MR. MANNING: So if we do a road and bring it up

to standard the municipality must be willing to maintain it. Is that the

understanding?

MR. EFFORD: Yes, that is right.

MR. MANNING: Another thing I am also concerned

about, and it may not be so important to some people but in my district,

especially with the fog this morning, is the yellow line. I have a couple of

questions on that. When does the department start putting the yellow line on the

highway anywhere in the Province and how many crews are on the road doing this

particular job?

MR. EFFORD: We start in the Liberal districts

first. The Port de Grave district is already done, by the way.

MR. MANNING: More power to you, I have no

problem with that. When I become Minister of Works, Services and Transportation

I will do the same thing in St. Mary's - The Capes.

MR. EFFORD: In answer to your question, you can

only start painting the lines when weather permits, and I said earlier in answer

to the Member for Bonavista it is very difficult in Newfoundland to do the

painting because of weather condition. You cannot do it when the temperatures

are cold. You cannot do it when it is foggy or damp. It has to be done on a year

to year basis because of the amount of salt and sand that is put on the roads.

We had two pieces of equipment last year and we now have a new piece of

equipment so we now have three this year. If mother nature, the weather, works

on our side we will get started immediately when the sun warms up. That is what

we are waiting on. Everybody is in full flight ready to go.

MR. MANNING: Is there a schedule?

MR. EFFORD: I already told you that. I already

answered that one.

MR. MANNING: Seriously, is there a schedule,

like do they start on one side of the Province or are they more or less spread

around somewhat?

MR. EFFORD: They are spread around pretty good,

I think.

MR. MANNING: What's that?

MR. EFFORD: It is spread around the Province

pretty good.

MR. MANNING: I do not know who was driving the

truck, but last year in my area just as an example, there is a side road down to

the community of Point Lance, I guess it is around fourteen kilometres but I

stand to be corrected and the connecting road is what we call the Branch Road

which runs between Branch and St. Bride's. The truck came out one day and put

the line on the road between Branch and St. Bride's and passed the side road,

there is a community, Point Lance, and two weeks after came back out just do

this road, but you would think, that in the effort of saving money, they would

do the Point Lance Road when they were out to do it or, is there a reason for

that?

MR. EFFORD: Well, I can't answer that

particular question and I doubt if anyone here this morning can answer that,

because you have to remember the numbers of roads and byroads, but then I have

the confidence in the people within the department that there had to be a

reasoning as to why that was done.

MR. MANNING: That's what I asked, was there a

reason? What I am saying is that we continually hear about the efforts of saving

money and -

MR. EFFORD: We are providing a service within

this department for all people right across this Province with greater

responsibility put on the people with less money and improving the services, so

much so, and you missed it earlier because you slept in - that we had thank you

letter after thank you letter after thank you letter for the jobs and for the

way in which we performed the winter maintenance program this winter; but that's

improving. Improving service with less money and there has to be an underlying

reason why they would go through a community, bypass one of the local roads, a

side road. I suspect it was a good reason but if you require, we can certainly

check that out but I would have the confidence that there is a good reason for

it.

MR. MANNING: Yes. You keep striking on the fact

that I slept in. As I said before, I did not sleep in but maybe you should send

out to some of the depots in the Province because from the actions of some of

them in the past year, a lot of them were sleeping in.

MR. EFFORD: Just hold on a second.

MR. MANNING: No. I would like to -

MR. EFFORD: If you have a problem with anybody

in your particular area, where the people were not getting out and plowing the

roads, you bring it to the attention of the Department but I am telling you -

MR. MANNING: I did bring it to the attention of

the minister.

MR. EFFORD: On one occasion but there was a

good explanation for that. But I tell you very clearly that the people of the

Department of Works, Services and Transportation have placed the responsibility

on the people who are operating the trucks and the plows, they are on the road

at five o'clock in the morning weather permitting, they are not Gods, they

cannot be out in all kinds of weather but weather permitting, if they can get

out there and plow those roads at no risk to their lives, they are out there.

Now you have to remember we have 9,000 kilometres

of road and what people want - if a particular truck is responsible, and I use

the argument, twenty-five kilometres of road to plow on any given day, that

truck can't be everywhere at the same time. It has to start at point A and

finish at point B, and in the meantime when he leaves point A and gets half-way

to point B, from point A, from where he has already come, Mother Nature could

have another snowfall down or slush or whatever, so you can't keep the roads the

same in winter as you do in summer, I mean, it's a different season but people

do expect that.

MR. MANNING: No, I just said -

MR. EFFORD: But they don't sleep in.

MR. MANNING: Pardon?

MR. EFFORD: They do not sleep in.

MR. MANNING: Well, I called you one time the

winter and have no problem in saying -

MR. EFFORD: That truck was on the road.

MR. MANNING: - the thing was dealt with -

MR. EFFORD: That truck was on the road but it

wasn't there when you wanted it there.

MR. MANNING: Pardon?

MR. EFFORD: That truck was out on the road. It

was not in the spot where people wanted it to be at that particular time.

MR. MANNING: No, but what I am saying is that I

am responding to your -

MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: I am responding to your comments,

that has nothing to do with the questions I asked. I just came back with a view

of my own but I brought that to your attention the year, the past winter and it

was dealt with and I told you I appreciated that, no problem; but what I am

saying is that I was under the understand that the trucks had to leave the depot

at four o'clock, right? That was my understanding at time, that the truck had to

leave the depot at four o'clock and it was touching half-past-six and the truck

hadn't left the depot at that time, and that was the concern that was brought

forward and several people in my area I called and the message was passed on to

you.

MR. EFFORD: As we said, everybody wants it all

done at the same time.

MR. MANNING: Yes. Oh I understand -

MR. CHAIRMAN: I am sorry, the ten minutes are

up.

MR. MANNING: Ten minutes are up already?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave?

MR. EFFORD: No leave.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Matthews.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I

will get right into the use of my time because the Chairman is talk happy this

morning and I appreciate him being that way actually, but I should say in a very

non-partisan way or as to the greatest extent that that can be said, that I have

always been impressed with the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation as

being -

MS. VERGE: You don't even have any provincial

roads in your District.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: Well, I have to talk about

something.

MR. EFFORD: She is impressed too.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. L. MATTHEWS: He has always been deemed to

be a take-charge minister in any department he has had. In the year that I've

seen him operate on a first-hand basis I can only confirm that the perception

generally in the population about your capabilities and competency, sir, has

been vindicated.

AN HON. MEMBER: All the roads in St. John's

North are going to be paved.

MR. EFFORD: You got that right.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: The department that you are

responsible for lends great potential in my view to carrying forward, I guess,

the policy and principles that were outlined in the Throne Speech with respect

to privatization initiatives and contracting out efforts and that sort of thing.

I'm pleased to see some of the things you've done in streamlining in the rural

areas, but I don't have a big affinity of what is happening in rural

Newfoundland.

I want to ask you first if there is an ongoing

discussion or consideration in your department to be looking at the contracting

out for goods and services to the greatest extent possible in view of maximizing

the scare dollars that we seem to have these days, in the interest not only of

saving money but providing a better level of service to our Province and its

people.

MR. EFFORD: Yes. We have been looking at it for

quite some time now. I will start off with the government purchasing, central

purchasing. We've been looking at improving the ways of bringing together the

purchase of government products that they use, government commodities that we

used on a day-to-day basis. We brought together a number of products over the

past while which have substantially saved the government quite a deal of money

by centralizing on the purchasing of products, but we don't see contracting that

out to private enterprise. That is done more efficiently in-house.

We brought together I think it was eleven or twelve

products and saved something like $1.7 million in bringing together the bulk

purchasing of products and then distributing them out to the areas in which they

want to be used. Efficiency, improvements in purchasing, and centralizing the

purchasing of government are utmost on our minds. In fact, I've had several

meetings with the executive over the last two or three months. Hopefully the

next one in the near future is going to give me a list of more products,

commodities, that are being used by government, municipalities, Crown

corporations, school boards, hospitals, right across the Province, and have the

centralized purchasing brought up to a greater level. There is no good rushing

into it and just jumping in, as you would know with your experience in business.

It is better to take it a step at a time and then add on until finally we reach

a plateau where we will have it all streamlined and the best dollar maximum of

savings can be realized.

We are always looking at privatization or

contracting out. In some cases it works, in some cases it doesn't. It has been

proven by the Works side of the department - engineering - we can do it less

costly by doing it in-house in a lot of instances. It is not always to the best

advantage to give anything outside.

MS. VERGE: Hydro is (inaudible) such an

example.

MR. EFFORD: I will get to that later.

Anyhow, we are on a continuous basis looking out to

providing the contracting out of services, and construction and building,

wherever possible. Like I said, we have to be very careful that we don't do it

for the sake of doing it, and not to the best advantage of the efficiency and

financial savings, what we are trying to accomplish. It is something that is an

ongoing discussion day after day.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: Thank you. On to another issue

- the clock is ticking - the Outer Ring Road. I'm pleased to see that initiative

has been approved and I presume the work will commence this spring.

MR. EFFORD: Tenders closed on one

section of

the Outer Ring Road the day before yesterday. The contract was awarded to

Pyramid Construction here in St. John's, and that is that portion that was going

to be started up around the Nagle's Hill area, in that portion.

The other contract will be let in the near future.

We still have a couple of things to get out of the way - land, environmental

things out on the Trans-Canada, where it joins with the Trans-Canada. That

tender should be called in the very near future. The intent is to spend about $6

million this year in the construction of the Outer Ring Road.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: When is the projected

completion date of that in the context of the funding that we have?

MR. EFFORD: 2002.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: 2002.

MR. EFFORD: We have the monies, as you all

know, to do all of the work, but we get $50 million a year, $30 million for the

Trans-Canada, $20 million for the trunk roads. One of the things we try to do is

not do a whole lot of construction that can get out of control in any one

particular area, so it can be properly managed and done in a correct manner, but

the other thing is to try to keep the construction across the Province, so work

will be done in different areas and the roads will all come to a completion

pretty well all at the same time, the year 2001, 2002, 2003, the final date of

this Roads for Rails Agreement to run out.

It gives jobs right across the Province, and it

gives everybody the satisfaction that there's something being done in my area,

except the Member for Humber East; she's never satisfied.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: No, she's half happy. I've

chatted with her.

MR. EFFORD: She's happy?

MR. L. MATTHEWS: Half happy.

MR. EFFORD: Half happy.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: Happy to be here. I never said

she was happy with you.

She's briefed me on the situation in Pasadena, and

I'm almost convinced, John, and I'm really going to have to talk to you this

afternoon.

MR. EFFORD: You're sitting too close; it rubs

off.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: On to another issue of some

currency with respect to the Pippy Park area, the Pippy Park Commission, there's

been a group organized of land owners in that area, and I haven't, I must

confess, had a chance to fully study the document that they presented to you,

but in a general sense, because I'm not totally familiar with all of the

concerns, are there some legitimate concerns in that document? I wouldn't ask

you to respond to them, but in the context that if your answer is yes, there are

legitimate concerns, do you think that we can work them out through the Pippy

Park Commission, or are there some problems even with the operation of the

commission?

MR. EFFORD: Well, you've got to remember that

the Pippy Park Commission is responsible for the overall operation. I am the

minister responsible for the Pippy Park Commission. The one thing that I

disagree with the approach that this group of people, the residents of Pippy

Park, took, they didn't go and sit down first of all and talk with the

commission. Had they done that and not reached an understanding, they could have

then come to my office; but they chose to go the public route first before I had

a meeting with the commission first, or myself second.

Yes, they've got legitimate concerns. I understand

the residents of Pippy Park, the people who live in the particular area, of the

concerns they have. Secondly, I think yes, there are going to be some things

worked out to the satisfaction of both parties.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: I am aware of some of their

concerns, of course, because a small

section of the area is in my district, and

I've talked to the residents and campaigned there, and have seen first hand and

have heard of them. Would it be fair to say that they've never attempted or

haven't, over the years, tried to sit down with the Pippy Park Commission? I

can't envisage that they wouldn't have done that.

MR. EFFORD: Well, I was called last week when

they had the press conference. I was called 8:30 a.m. last Wednesday to be in a

press conference at 10:00 a.m. and, as you know, we had a caucus meeting at

10:00 a.m. I said to the gentleman who called me: It's very unfair to approach

me in that manner. Why didn't you at least give me twenty-four hours notice?

When I found out, he didn't even write me or

contact me. He went over my head and contacted my boss to say to me to have the

minister sent over.

So the manner in which they approached it was

something to be questioned, but I asked that question: So why didn't you go to

the Pippy Park Commission? I checked with the Pippy Park Commission and they

told me that they have never sat down with this group of people to discuss their

issues, because I had met with an individual two or three weeks ago and

discussed his concerns, personal concerns, but not as a group. I didn't know

this group existed.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: No, I think they're a newly

formed group.

MR. EFFORD: Well, no, they've been on the go

for some time.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: Yes, I suppose in formation.

I'm not totally familiar with them, but they contacted me the day prior to the

press conference and I couldn't go either. To that, I suppose, I would ask that

yourself and your officials keep me apprised of what's happening in as much as

there's not a lot of things in my district that I can chase you for in terms of

services and roads and attention, but on this one I want to be sure that as a

city MHA, I guess, I'm involved in it and others are as well.

MR. EFFORD: They've requested a meeting with

myself, so what I suggested to the committee is that I first meet with the Pippy

Park Commission. There is a meeting being scheduled now so when I meet with the

Pippy Park Commission I intend to meet with the group and the Pippy Park

Commission. I am not going to do one in isolation of the other. I think the

Pippy Park Commission should be in on the meeting. I will inform you so that you

and any of the MHAs in the area can attend the same meeting.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, very much, Mr.

Minister.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: Thank you Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: You are welcome.

Mr. Fitzgerald.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Minister, very quickly, is

there much consideration given to the priority list that the MHAs submit to your

department as far as road priority?

MR. EFFORD: Yes.

MR. FITZGERALD: Wasted effort?

MR. EFFORD: No, it is not a wasted effort.

MR. FITZGERALD: How do you decide on your

priorities as far as doing road work?

MR. EFFORD: I cannot answer that on the grounds

that it might incriminate me.

MR. FITZGERALD: Tell me the truth, and in that

way I will not waste my time in going through the motions.

MR. EFFORD: If I were to look at Port de Grave

district and Bonavista South I would have to say Bonavista South would get a

fair hearing.

MR. FITZGERALD: It is reflected in the amount

of work we got this year.

MR. EFFORD: I think so.

I am going to be honest in this. This is not

joking. You have to remember, too, that we were on the opposition for seventeen

years. I got elected in 1985 and from 1985 to 1989 in the opposition there was

not one dollar spent in Port de Grave district.

MR. FITZGERALD: You would certainly not want to

be tagged as bad as those fellows, would you?

MR. EFFORD: I would not say that. I believe in

fairness and balance, bringing us up to the balance of what you people enjoyed

for seventeen years.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Minister, the cost of

maintaining local airstrips. Is that fully borne by your department and the

taxpayers of this Province? I am not referring to Gander International Airport.

What I am referring to are the local airstrips like the one existing in the

Clarenville area.

MR. EFFORD: What did you say about the

Clarenville area?

MR. FITZGERALD: Like an airstrip similar to the

one existing in the Clarenville area.

MR. EFFORD: Yes, that is the cost of our

department except for the restoration of the ones in Labrador which would be

federal responsibility. On the Island they are the responsibility of my

department.

MR. FITZGERALD: Is there a fee charged to the

private owners who use those airports for pleasure and recreation?

MR. EFFORD: There are no buildings or anything

on any of those airstrips. It is just a service provided to the individual using

that particular airstrip. The only thing they would have to do is notify in the

normal safety of aviation, but there is no fee structure charged by the

department. Is there a fee for flying they would have to pay Transport Canada?

AN HON. MEMBER: No.

MR. EFFORD: There is nothing.

MR. FITZGERALD: So, they do not have to bear

any part of the expense for using that particular air facility, or any facility

of that nature?

Another pet peeve in our area, and I brought this

up at the last meeting, I will not refer to it as boulders in the sand that you

put on the roads in the wintertime, but as rocks, which are certainly causing a

big problem. You never find it on the Trans-Canada Highways but on the other

branch roads you do many times. It is almost a situation that if you see the

snowplough go down and the sander you stay home for a couple of days because I

can assure you that you are going to get your windshield broken.

MR. EFFORD: That is a bit of an exaggeration.

MR. FITZGERALD: No, it is not an exaggeration.

It is a big problem. I am wondering if there is any intention of changing that

or is it only me who continues to bring it up?

MR. EFFORD: You know very well that Glen Tobin,

the MHA for Burin - Placentia West brought it up here but he referred to it as

boulders and rocks, and mountains in the middle of the road. Now, I suggest

there is a reason for doing that, too, but you know full well what the problem

is. On the Trans-Canada we totally use salt; on the local roads or the off-roads

we use a mixture of sand and salt. Depending on the climatic conditions, the

temperature, sometimes sand freezes and you get a little, I wouldn't say

boulders but you get a little -

MR. FITZGERALD: No, they are rocks. It is not

sand frozen together I am sure.

MR. EFFORD: Now if there is rock in it, we will

have to look at it but what we get is that it gets frozen very hard and then it

flicks sometimes but I mean that's a part of the conditions that we have to

drive under; I don't think it is as serious as what you are saying but what I

will do and what I have already committed to doing, and prior to Terry becoming

ADM, I spoke to his predecessor John O'Reilly, who was the then ADM responsible

for this, and what we are going to take a look at is, sifting; is that the right

word you use - to make sure that it is done -

MR. FITZGERALD: Screening, it's a screening

process.

MR. EFFORD: Screening, the sifting or the

screening of the sand for next winter, but after all, where using hundreds of

thousands of tons of sand on the road so you are going to get the occasional

rock, but I don't -

MR. FITZGERALD: No, it is not the occasional

rock, Mr. Minister.

MR. EFFORD: If there are any mountains then I

will go and remove them.

MR. FITZGERALD: No, no, it is not that. You are

stretching the concerns -

MR. EFFORD: No, but you said boulders.

MR. FITZGERALD: No, I didn't. I said I am not

going to refer to it as boulders as some other members have, is what I said -

MR. EFFORD: Oh, I am sorry, I am sorry. Okay.

MR. FITZGERALD: - and when you see a person who

went and bought a new car and had to end up getting a paint job or replacing a

windshield and a side window from the sand that comes from a Department of

Works, Services and Transportation truck -

MR. EFFORD: What!

MR. FITZGERALD: - I don't think you can shrug

it off and say there is no concern.

MR. EFFORD: How close were they driving?

MR. FITZGERALD: They weren't driving close at

all, in fact, they met the truck. They met it, and I can refer you to the person

because it was my sister-in-law.

MR. EFFORD: So? That's not saying they could

not have been tailgating or something.

MR. FITZGERALD: No, they met the truck, they

met it. It wasn't tailgating, they met it, it is as simple as that and what you

will find is, most of the time when you get your windshield broken it is not the

point of tailgating, it is the point again of meeting a vehicle on the highway.

That has been my experience, and I'm sure that other people here can refer to

the same thing.

MR. EFFORD: Yourself and the MHA for Burin -

Placentia West are the only two I believe who brought that to my attention, but

he brought it in the House of Assembly during Question Period. Certainly you

can't be responsible for all the windshields that are broken on any stretch of

highway. If there is a concern, if there is anything to substantiate - and we

are checking this out - that the screening of the sand is causing us that, we

are going to improve it next year.

MR. FITZGERALD: Also, the new rules and

regulations. I spoke with Mr. Hussey about this on a couple of occasions, and I

thank him for his advice and the time that he allowed me for it. The new

inspections of licencing - well, inspecting dump trucks and buses. In my

District there is one individual now who has a great concern. He was always

allowed to do that. I don't know if he was ever allowed to inspect buses but I

know he was always allowed to inspect dump trucks and that sort of thing. Is

there any consideration that might be given to people who were always involved

in that type of business being grandfathered in to the situation? Where you have

an individual now who is fifty-five or sixty years old and not well versed as

far as having a Level III education and this sort of thing. Has any thought been

given to that?

MR. EFFORD: I will answer the first part of it

and then I will let Mr. Hussey deal with that part.

You have to remember that the reasons why - you've

got to understand, I shouldn't say remember - the department brought in these

new regulations on these vehicles and dump trucks and school buses. It is

strictly safety. We cannot have school buses or passenger vehicles of that

magnitude out on the highway not being safe. All you need is one accident, the

loss of one life. Heaven forbid it ever happens. Then the responsibility comes

back on who?... on the department, on the minister, and on government as to why

you are allowing this. Safety is the utmost consideration and is the thing that

is promoted. Max do you have anything on that?

MR. HUSSEY: Yes, on the issue of certification

of older individuals. We've looked at this. We've made many adjustments in the

program since its inception just a couple of months ago. We've worked with the

Department of Education through the trades branch that certifies these people

and we have a bunch of people now taking upgrading. We have other people who

have written exams and actually passed the certification process. Most recently

we've had discussions - only yesterday, which I haven't even had a chance to

talk to the minister about - about the possibility maybe of establishing a

separate approval process for these types of people, whereby they could write

some kind of a screening exam to ensure that they do have the knowledge to do

the inspections.

MR. EFFORD: Again, I can just boast about the

cooperation and the working of the department.

MR. FITZGERALD: That is something that I would

like to see brought in, because if you notice we are doing it now with the

Department of Employment and Labour Relations in electrical inspections and

boiler inspections. The minister continues to refer back to the licensed

mechanic or the person who was doing the work on the car. If we use that as an

example I suppose there is no reason why we can't consider some of those people

with a lot of knowledge and who have been involved in the industry all their

lives, and now who've found themselves with most of their livelihood being taken

from them.

MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: It is close to 10:30 a.m. and if

the Committee wishes we can break for ten minutes for coffee and come back. We

will break for ten minutes for coffee.

MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, you are a

gentleman.

Recess

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

We will begin the questioning with Mr. Noel.

MR. NOEL: I would be happy to yield to Mr. Careen

if he wants to ask a few questions.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I welcome Nick Careen, the Member

for Placentia. Nick is the critic for Works, Services and Transportation in the

Opposition.

MR. NOEL: We know he just wants an opportunity to

demonstrate his talents.

MR. CAREEN: I would like to thank the Member for

Pleasantville. Good morning all.

Mr. Minister, of late you've been dickering with

Marine Atlantic over south coast transportation situations, and the main goal,

like anything else, is the improvements - it always has to be - but you know

that Gaultois is an island, and up the south coast they've had trouble off and

on over the years with Marine Atlantic. We've heard them through different

political entities in government, and the latest on Gaultois, you were hoping to

make some kind of announcement, or meet with those people shortly regarding

improvements, because they say that the proposals thrown at them awhile ago,

none of them are improvements really.

MR. EFFORD: Who said that?

MR. CAREEN: A couple of different people I was

talking to, Sir.

MR. EFFORD: Mr. Chairman again, you see, we make

assumptions based on rumours and not on facts.

First of all the South Coast system, the ferry system

provided by the Province and by Marine Atlantic, there has been a duplication of

services, and really not looking at a cooperative agreement between both

governments with the concerns of the people in mind to try to work out an

improvement of service to the isolated communities. What the department has been

doing over the last number of months is sitting down with the officials of

Marine Atlantic and coming up with several different options that would take all

of the communities along the Southwest Coast - Ramea, Grey River, Franois,

McCallum, Recontre, Gaultois - and to try to put together a system there that

will provide these services, much improved services, to those people. We've had

officials meeting on a continuing basis.

A couple of weeks ago I said - well, I said it before

that - but a couple of weeks ago we took the step to: Okay, we've looked at

several different options. We don't want to make any final decisions in

isolation of the people in those communities so let's go down to each community

and present those options. Not final decisions, options. Let's give the people a

chance for now to have their input into those options. Then we will come back,

look at the input from the people - again we are allowing the people the time

and the opportunity to participate before any final decision is made. Because

too often the former governments which you are now a part of, but you weren't

there then, you are now part of - the party you are part of now - often did

things in isolation from people. I never ever did that in private and I don't

intend to do it in government.

We've met with each community and we gave an

opportunity for the local representatives and public of those communities to

participate in presenting, looking at the options, and having an input. I went

there myself. I didn't get into two communities because the pilot wouldn't land

because of the wind. He was afraid, he said it was dangerous to land, so I

missed Grey River and Franois. But officials went back and met with the people

in those communities. In each instance they were told very clearly and carefully

that these are not final decisions. These are only options in which we want your

input. At the end of the day, when we take your input, we will go back to the

department, the two groups - Marine Atlantic and our department - will be

together and encompass it all. Then we will go back to each individual group and

say: Do you like this? By God, I can't do any more than that.

MR. CAREEN: Now the other side of the coin is, the

other thing is, that there are talks, and it is so close run, it might terminate

in Rose Blanche.

MR. EFFORD: No "might" into it.

MR. CAREEN: Definitely?

MR. EFFORD: You got it.

MR. CAREEN: That is going to -

MR. EFFORD: No "might" into it.

MR. CAREEN: That is going to put a bit of hardship

on people coming through on buses.

MR. EFFORD: No.

MR. CAREEN: It is not bad in the summertime if you

have a shuttle bus going down to Rose Blanche from Port aux Basques. But in the

wintertime when you have to try to get around places such as the Devil's Elbow

up there, a severe winding road, and there are places where a boat can go in the

wintertime -

MR. EFFORD: There is not a

section of this

Province of Newfoundland and Labrador where there are not hardships placed on

people because of climate conditions.

MR. CAREEN: That is right. What I'm saying is, why

only for the sake of an hour terminate at Rose Blanche? What is the saving to

Marine Atlantic then? It had to be the savings to Marine Atlantic. It is not the

savings to the travelling public of this Province.

MR. EFFORD: Probably I was too strong in saying

the word. I don't know - did I use the word "definite"?

MR. CAREEN: I used "definite," you said, "You got

it." So.

MR. EFFORD: Okay. Marine Atlantic wants to

terminate at Rose Blanche. We have not been giving - except for the distance in

the travel to Port aux Basques. What we are saying to the people is: If we can

come to an agreement where the services are being provided to those people, and

much improved services, that they will now be able to - well, there are three

different areas. There is Burgeo and Rose Blanche and on this end it would be

Bay L'Argent, not Terrenceville, it would be including Bay L'Argent. Why would

people then continue to go to Port aux Basques? The next point I want to make

is, I have to drive 600 miles if I want to get to Port aux Basques, so why would

they not get into their vehicles and go into Burgeo or into Bay L'Argent and

drive as everybody else? I think that is what will happen.

The people, by the way, when I presented those things

to them, agreed. They said they did not even think about that.

MR. CAREEN: So you are saying there might be a

transportation system that would take you from Bay L'Argent in the morning and

go right up the south coast and terminate at Rose Blanche that evening?

MR. EFFORD: Yes.

MR. CAREEN: I would have to see it.

MR. EFFORD: Well, we are positive thinkers.

MR. CAREEN: So am I.

MR. EFFORD: You are not there now.

MR. CAREEN: No, I am not there now but I have seen

too much stuff going on.

MR. EFFORD: Well, I have seen too much stuff

happen over the last seventeen years.

MR. CAREEN: It is not that I do not trust you,

Minister, but I am talking about some of the others you have to deal with.

MR. EFFORD: Well!

MR. CAREEN: That is what I am saying, Marine

Atlantic.

About five weeks ago we had a terrific downpour of

rain on a particular Friday and a

section of ditching could not bear what was

happening and the culverts were inadequate. In places such as Dunville there

were a good many washouts in roads, also in South East Placentia and in

Freshwater. Because of the number of letters that came into your department have

you directed some of your officials to have a look at the damages?

MR. EFFORD: Earlier in my opening remarks - you

were not here Nick at the time when I made the statement, since coming into the

Department of Works, Services and Transportation on a daily basis it is

unbelievable the amount of paper work that comes from every area of the Province

concerning road conditions, flooding, and the build up of ice in brooks,

culverts, and everything else, and also when you have heavy rainfalls. It is

very evident because of the climate where you have three seasons in any one day,

so it is an ongoing continuous problem all over the Province, especially this

time of the year when you have run-offs.

I received letters from you and from individuals. They

also wrote the Premier and the Premier sent a copy over to me so I have received

three copies of each one. In each instance I put a note on it saying, sent it to

the area officials, and had the area officials meet with the parties concerned,

and then before any final decision is taken come back and let me know so that I

have a clear understanding that the concerns of those people have been

addressed.

MR. CAREEN: Prince Charles Place, you and I have

talked about it from there to here a number of months ago and you had a designer

come up with some kind of proposal.

MR. EFFORD: You mean Prince Philip Place.

MR. CAREEN: Prince Philip Place.

MR. EFFORD: I was going to say what is Prince

Charles Place? I have enough princes to deal with now.

MR. CAREEN: I get mixed up in royalty.

Anyway, what is the latest on that?

MR. EFFORD: We have the engineering specs done but

the department would like to see Prince Philip Place once it is renovated to the

satisfaction of the department - we have that form completed but we are in the

process now of deciding whether or not to call for public proposals for a

private developer to use their own money in the total reconstruction of Prince

Philip Place. That is something government is considering and we will be making

a final decision within the next few days.

The approximate cost of renovations is about $6

million but we do not have the ability to go out and borrow that kind of money

so we will get private enterprise again involved, privatization, with a

lease-back arrangement to government. That is something that will be done in the

next couple of days.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Minister. Ms. Verge.

MS. VERGE: I have a couple of more questions about

the re-routing of the Trans-Canada Highway in Pasadena, what's the status of it

now? When will the minister next meet with the Pasadena Town Council? When will

the minister -

MR. EFFORD: When will I next meet with the

Pasadena Town Council?

MS. VERGE: Yes. When will the minister make

available to the public whatever he has on paper in the way of a feasibility

study of his proposed trench transmission line route? When will the minister be

going to Cabinet for a Cabinet decision on the route, if he hasn't gone already?

MR. EFFORD: When will I be presenting a

feasibility study on the new route?

MS. VERGE: No, three questions, when will the

minister next meet with the Pasadena Town Council?

MR. EFFORD: Why should we meet with the Pasadena

Town Council? They've made their position known publicly.

MS. VERGE: Well the minister just wrote the

council or the minister just had one of his officials phone the council office

and say that he would be meeting with them or wanted to meet with them again.

I'm wondering when he will have that meeting that he suggested and the council

wants a meeting as the minister knows. When will the minister next meet with the

Pasadena Town Council?

MR. EFFORD: I may not now.

MS. VERGE: Why?

MR. EFFORD: We will not be presenting a

feasibility study, any further feasibility studies to anybody in the Pasadena

Town Council on any further feasibility studies than have already been done. The

transmission line is the route that I very clearly stated to the people of

Pasadena in a public forum. I entertained questions and debated with several -

MS. VERGE: But they've rejected that. You've got a

petition with signatures of more than 80 per cent of the Pasadena residents.

MR. EFFORD: For several hours I entertained -

MS. VERGE: Chair, I have three precise questions -

MR. EFFORD: But sure let me answer it.

MS. VERGE: The first question is, when is the

minister next meeting with the council?

MR. EFFORD: When I decide to meet with the council

I will talk to the council of Pasadena, not to the MHA.

MS. VERGE: Fine, okay. The second question, when

will the minister make public whatever he has on paper in the way of a design or

a study of his transmission line trench proposal?

MR. EFFORD: On the new superhighway that we will

be putting through Pasadena, we have already made a public presentation on that

superhighway.

MS. VERGE: But all that was, was a map with a red

line across it.

MR. EFFORD: Well I'd prefer a red line to a blue

one.

MS. VERGE: Surely there have to be technical

engineering drawings?

MR. EFFORD: That was what was done that night. In

fact, the director of highway design was sitting by my side and he entertained

questions that night from the people of Pasadena about the highway design, about

the buffer zone, about the -

MS. VERGE: I was at the meeting. I'm asking you

about documentation. What we saw that night stuck on the wall was simply a red

line -

MR. EFFORD: It wasn't satisfactory to you.

MS. VERGE: I'm asking, when will the minister make

available to the public some detailed studies or design of his proposed

transmission line route?

MR. EFFORD: We left with the Town Council of

Pasadena, to be placed on the wall for public viewing, with the town council,

the design of the highway, the routing and the design of the highway that's

going to go through Pasadena.

MS. VERGE: Chair, the minister is just simply

avoiding the question. All that the Pasadena Council has is the same as or

similar to what was posted on the wall at the public meeting, a simple map with

a line across it. I'm asking for some detail about the design of this proposed

new route.

MR. EFFORD: I can't give any more detail about the

superhighway that we're putting through Pasadena any more then I did for several

hours - I shouldn't say I, we did for several hours at that public forum to all

the Pasadena people, except I went one step further then that. I said at that

public meeting - I've replied to letters sent - I said if any person or persons

who are still not satisfied with the explanation can come into my office at any

time that they request a meeting and I'll go over it in more detail. We have

presented as much information as was presented on the southern bypass route; we

don't see the necessity of going beyond that. We are not going to spend any more

money for more studies and we will continue on with the plans of the department.

MS. VERGE: Chair, does the department have a plan?

That's what I am trying get at.

MR. EFFORD: Oh most definitely. That's the one

thing I pride myself on.

MS. VERGE: You can't give a map with a red line on

it to a contractor and have the contractor carry out the construction project.

Has the department done anything more than put a red line on a map?

MR. EFFORD: Most definitely.

MS. VERGE: Will the (inaudible).

MR. EFFORD: That will be in full consultation with

the contractor or contractors.

MS. VERGE: Will the minister make available to the

public by tabling for the Committee or tabling in the full House as I asked a

couple of days ago -

MR. EFFORD: No.

MS. VERGE: - whatever more he has on paper?

MR. EFFORD: No.

MS. VERGE: Why?

MR. EFFORD: Because I have already told the people

of Pasadena exactly what's going to take place out there.

MS. VERGE: But the people of Pasadena and their

MHA would like to see more specifics of the minister's grand design. Perhaps the

minister has a brilliant idea that we simply fail to appreciate but if we are

shown more detail, we may conclude that, yes, indeed the minister is brilliant

and he knows better than the three independent consulting engineering firms

which have already examined options and the minister had a better idea, but we

need to see more detail.

MR. EFFORD: We feel we have a better idea than the

three studies that were done, two for the department and one for the Town of

Pasadena. Take the southern bypass route, number one, $10 million; number 2, the

grading; number 3, the extra distance -

MS. VERGE: Chair, the minister is straying from my

questions.

MR. EFFORD: Pardon?

MR. DUMARESQUE: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Member for Eagle River,

on a point of order.

MR. DUMARESQUE: The hon. Member for Humber East is

obviously not happy with the answers but just because you are not happy with

some of the answers that the minister is clearly giving to the hon. member does

not constitute a privilege for the hon. member to keep badgering the minister

because she doesn't get what she wants. The answers are given, they are clearly

substantiated and I think the hon. member has to accept that she does not always

get things her way.

MR. CHAIRMAN: As Chairperson, I didn't notice the

badgering. Maybe I should pay more attention, but anyway there is no point of

order. Ms. Verge.

MS. VERGE: The final part of my question for the

minister which he hasn't answered is, has the minister gone to Cabinet or, if

not, when will he be going to Cabinet for a decision on the TCH route in

Pasadena?

MR. EFFORD: First of all, the hon. member being a

former Cabinet minister, knows full well that you do not put Cabinet or

government on any schedule.

MS. VERGE: So you haven't gone yet. Thank you.

Okay, thank you. Now, I have other questions about -

MR. EFFORD: You assumed an answer.

MS. VERGE: - the recently constructed new,

four-lane Trans-Canada Highway in the Corner Brook area, specifically the

section above Riverside Drive. Last year at this time, it happened to be during

the election campaign, there was bad flooding from the new highway down the hill

to Riverside Drive. This year there has been worse flooding and a landslide;

does the minister take any responsibility for -

AN HON. MEMBER: Landslide.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

MS. VERGE: - the flooding and the recent landslide

since many people in that area believe that it was the earth moving and the new

highway construction done by the government in rerouting the Trans-Canada and

building the new four-lane highway, that has basically caused or aggravated a

previous problem and caused the landslide this year?

MR. EFFORD: I take a lot of responsibility for the

landslide experience last May 3rd.

MS. VERGE: How about the landslide on Riverside

Drive this spring?

MR. EFFORD: As I understand, that is a council

responsibility. In fact I watched, it was last evening or the evening before,

the Mayor of Corner Brook, Mayor Pollet and another group at a public forum,

some people attended a meeting and they discussed then the situation of the

landslide that the hon. member is talking about, and was committed by the Mayor

of Corner Brook, the council of Corner Brook that that was going to be taken

care of in the very near future.

MS. VERGE: So the minister is not taking any

responsibility?

MR. EFFORD: No. You are the first person who has

even spoken or asked a question on it. I have never received any communication

from anybody in the Corner Brook area about that situation.

MS. VERGE: Okay.

Now, moving a little further west, the government

which recently built a new four-lane divided super Trans-Canada Highway

bypassing Corner Brook made a colossal mess of it, and the minister has

undertaken to make some modifications this summer, what exactly is the minister

going to do to try to improve that highway network? In particular, is the

minister going to upgrade the former highway -

MR. EFFORD: Arterial.

MS. VERGE: - as you exit the west bound lane

entering Corner Brook by the cement plant, and is the minister going to make any

alteration to the ramps connecting the Lewin Parkway Overpass; and is the

minister going to add some signage to give motorists better direction since the

current situation is quite confusing? Finally, what is the minister going to do

to beautify the ugly, barren, rocky bank in Maple Valley?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

Your time is just about up.

MS. VERGE: Yes, I am finished now.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Do you require an answer for those

series of questions?

MS. VERGE: I would like an answer to all of those

questions.

MR. EFFORD: You see, on the one hand she accuses

the department of making a colossal mess and on the other hand the member wants

us to make a colossal mess out in Pasadena, so you can't have it both ways.

I inherited the Department of Works, Services and

Transportation last year -

MS. VERGE: Are you promising only one mess, not

two?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Could we have a short answer to that

question, because we have to move on.

MR. EFFORD: We're looking at all options.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

Mr. Dumaresque.

MR. DUMARESQUE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, it being

11:08 a.m. -

MR. CHAIRMAN: It's 11:08 a.m., Mr. Dumaresque. You

have ten minutes.

MR. DUMARESQUE: Okay, thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to pursue a couple of questions on the

Trans-Labrador Highway, the Northern Gulf Route. I am particularly interested in

the process.

For the new road that we have stated in our Strategic

Economic Plan, for the new road that the minister has been working hard on for

the people on the Coast of Labrador, what is the process now? Has it been

registered with the Department of Environment and Lands? Does that have to be

done right away? Or what kind of process is there, and what's the time frame for

that type of thing?

MR. EFFORD: First of all, the first thing we've

got to do is access monies to do the environmental study. The estimated cost of

doing the environmental study is going to be somewhere in the $3 million to $6

million range. I suspect it's going to be in the higher rather than lower range.

That's one of the things that's got to be done in negotiation with the federal

government for monies. As I said earlier, that's hopefully taking place as we're

talking.

Once we get the money then we will go and register for

an environmental process to take place, but we don't have the monies in our

budget, as the hon. member knows, but that will be a part of the federal

agreement.

MR. DUMARESQUE: Is that the normal process, that

the federal government always provides money for an environmental process on a

new road, any new road that will be built in the Province?

MR. EFFORD: Not for entire roads, but in this case

where we want the federal government to take responsibility in the overall

financial package, because we do not have and we will never have the total

amount of money, as much as we would all like, to do the Northern Gulf Route,

but it should be and we want to direct the responsibility to the federal coffers

and get as much as we can out of the federal system in order to do that route,

so we would like the federal government to become involved up front in any

initiations of any environmental studies, but the federal do their own.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. EFFORD: The federal involvement, the

cost-shared agreements, and that's the reason why I'm saying we're trying to

encourage the federal government to take the lead in providing the greater

portion. We certainly wouldn't be able to do it on a 50\50 basis. It has got to

be more 70-30, 80-20, or 90-10 if possible.

MR. DUMARESQUE: It is like the Pasadena road, that

new road you are just going to do there. That has gone through an environmental

process that was paid for by the federal government?

MR. EFFORD: No, that doesn't need to go through an

environmental process because of where it is located. For argument's sake

(inaudible) -

MR. DUMARESQUE: By the transmission line.

MR. EFFORD: By the transmission line.

MR. DUMARESQUE: That has already gone.

MR. EFFORD: Consultation, we've had consultation

with the Department of Environment and Lands from Day 1 and we've asked for any

concerns, and we've got full approval.

MR. DUMARESQUE: For survey work to be done, does

the environmental study have to be done -

MR. EFFORD: Yes.

MR. DUMARESQUE: - and finished and completed?

MR. EFFORD: Yes. You see, if we went ahead and did

a survey of what we perceive to be the right, correct route, then the

environmental impact study was done and said: No, that is crazy, you can't go

there, well then everything would be lost, it would be worthless. The

environmental impact study has to be done in order for us to be able to survey.

Is that not correct?

AN HON. MEMBER: That's correct.

MR. DUMARESQUE: For a new road, is it an automatic

full environmental assessment?

MR. EFFORD: Oh yes.

MR. DUMARESQUE: As opposed to an environmental

report?

MR. EFFORD: I would think that in the case of the

route in Labrador then that would be a full environmental assessment. It is a

responsibility for us to do that. Especially with the concerns expressed already

in the (inaudible) report by the people of Labrador. I cannot see - even if we

were allowed to by-pass we wouldn't - you know, you would have to do a full

environmental impact study . We have no other choice, is that correct?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. DUMARESQUE: The proposal that you are putting

together now then is for the route. One of the questions - Route No. 1, I guess,

what you said earlier -

MR. EFFORD: Yes.

MR. DUMARESQUE: - which goes down along the Coast.

One of the questions that many people in Labrador are asking - they know what

happened on the Northern Peninsula - is it the government's intention to have

the construction start on both ends? Because if we didn't, for example, we could

very well spend fifteen years going from Churchill Falls to the Coast, and it

would be fifteen years before you would be able to start connecting the coastal

communities.

As the minister knows, 80 per cent of the communities

that are on the Coast are costing Marine Atlantic, or costing taxpayers,

$20-something million a year. That 80 per cent could be freed up within four or

five years if the road started on both ends. The precedent is already there on

the Northern Peninsula as the Member for Naskaupi would rightly attest to. Has

the government considered that aspect of it?

MR. EFFORD: Danny, as you know we are not at the

stage yet where we can go to government to make a decision on where we would

start. I can say very candidly to you that the point you make is a very valid

point. I would be leaning very strongly towards recommending exactly what you

are saying and for all the reasons and more of why you are saying it. I cannot

see, as you said, starting on one end and then going over. It would be wise to

start and come together on that road for the reasons that you've talked about.

There is no doubt about it, if I'm still the minister, or whoever is the

minister of that day, as the studies and talks go on those are the

recommendations that we can work with. It will be in full consultation not only

with the representatives, yourself and other people, MHAs like Naskaupi

whatever, whatever area, but especially the people of Labrador will have a full

input into whatever is being said and done and the proper procedure to follow.

MR. DUMARESQUE: I would like to point out for the

record that we had a chance to also discuss the issue that was raised earlier

this morning and that caused some confusion on my part, but I thank the minister

for clarifying that aspect of the work being contemplated in Happy Valley -

Goose Bay to Churchill Falls. I look forward to the results of the other

endeavours that you are taking and the Premier is taking. One question on the

Lodge Bay Road. This year we have the money I guess, to upgrade that

seven-kilometre stretch from Lodge Bay to Mary's Harbour and the people there

would now like to see the tenders called as soon as possible because of the

short construction season. When do you expect that that will be done?

MR. EFFORD: In two weeks time?

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes, two weeks.

MR. EFFORD: Two weeks they will be all done. I

understand the concerns because I travelled the area last year with my friend

into that area and I understand the concerns of the people; they are anxious to

get that

section of road done because it is in bad condition and I suspect that

it is in worse condition now after the winter months and the frost. Terry

informs me that in two weeks time the tenders will be called to do that

section

of road.

MR. DUMARESQUE: Will that include upgrading the

airstrip as well as the same plan as we -

MR. EFFORD: Yes, once you bring a contract in

there, I mean, because of the expense of bringing it in you would have to do all

that in the same time.

MR. DUMARESQUE: Okay. Thank you very much, Mr.

Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: You have about a minute, Mr.

Dumaresque.

MR. DUMARESQUE: I noticed, but the answers have

been so forthcoming this time, there is no need for the extra time.

MS. VERGE: You could praise up the minister.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Dumaresque. Mr.

Manning.

MR. MANNING: You have a real fan club, Mr.

Minister. That's good.

I have some work being planned in St. Mary's - The

Capes this year -

MR. EFFORD: What?

MR. MANNING: - the slip of somebody's hand or

maybe it is that fairness and balance that we hear the minister talking about

all the time.

MR. EFFORD: No, it wasn't. It was a necessity.

MR. MANNING: Necessity? Okay, whatever the case

anyway but it is -

MR. EFFORD: A bridge.

MR. MANNING: A bridge, yes. When do you expect

this bridge to go to tender and approximately how many dollars are we talking

about?

MR. EFFORD: We are talking about $1 million this

year, a $2-million project. Tenders are in the process of being called now, I

can't put a time on it. Any day now within the next week. We had no other

choice, we had to replace that bridge.

MR. MANNING: It must be tough, it sent shivers up

your back.

MR. EFFORD: It gave me the shivers.

MR. MANNING: Anyway, our district was the

beneficiary of the shivers up your back but that doesn't matter. Will this money

be coming under the Provincial Road Program now?

MR. EFFORD: Yes.

MR. MANNING: That's the program that it is coming

under? On another piece of work that is very important to my district also is

some work that is planned for Salmonier Line -

MR. EFFORD: That's Harbour Main District, by the

way.

MR. MANNING: It runs into Harbour Main district

but is used by myself six days a week, and many people in my district have been

lobbying for this piece of work and we were very happy and have no problem in

saying it. The minister allowed that to happen too; maybe it was a slip and -

MR. EFFORD: Well that's a Liberal district.

MR. MANNING: Yes, it is a Liberal district, but

exactly what work is being planned there this year?

MR. EFFORD: Resurfacing.

MR. MANNING: How many kilometres of road?

MR. EFFORD: Eleven kilometres; approximately

$850,000, that's already been publicly announced by the way.

MR. MANNING: Yes, and has that been tendered yet?

MR. EFFORD: Yes, that has gone to tender.

AN HON. MEMBER: That's too quick.

MR. MANNING: What's that?

MR. EFFORD: It closes tomorrow.

MR. MANNING: It closes tomorrow?

MR. EFFORD: Where is Don Whelan so he can go out

and announce that.

MR. MANNING: I don't care, I will drive on it. For

every time Don Whelan drives on it I drive 100 times so I don't care who gets

the credit as long as it is done.

Another question I have concerns the inspection of

school buses. It was touched on already but I was wondering: how many times a

year are inspections carried out?

MR. EFFORD: Twice a year.

MR. MANNING: Twice a year, and is it the rule that

a bus can operate if it is less than fourteen years old, is that the number of

years used?

MR. EFFORD: Fourteen years or less.

MR. MANNING: Yes, and is that a rule of this

department or Department of Education? This department here I guess, is it?

MR. EFFORD: Pardon?

MR. MANNING: Is that the rule -

MR. EFFORD: We are responsible for safety.

MR. MANNING: Yes, okay then. With regards to the

reorganization of the highway operation

section -

MR. EFFORD: Good job.

MR. MANNING: Oh, you didn't hear me roaring and

shouting at you. There's a couple of concerns I have - I think I came in on the

tail end of some questions from the hon. Member from Bonavista South.

MR. EFFORD: Yes, you slept in.

MR. MANNING: What's that?

MR. EFFORD: You slept in.

MR. MANNING: I'll use the example of St. Bride's

where there's a depot and those people have been instructed, more or less, how

to operate out of Placentia for the summer months. Would I be correct in saying

that you said earlier that some machines may be staying at the depot in St.

Bride's and operate from there?

MR. EFFORD: Well you're not suggesting that we'll

be taking the equipment every day back to the depot in Placentia are you?

MR. MANNING: No, I'm not suggesting, I'm

questioning?

MR. EFFORD: Oh no, we're not going to do that. My

gracious -

MR. MANNING: So the equipment will be stationed at

St. Bride's and operate from there.

MR. EFFORD: Wherever there is a need to keep

equipment for ongoing maintenance. What we're trying not to do - has been done

over the years - is to have one or two people on this particular

section to do

repairs or maintain that piece of road, ditch or whatever so the local people in

the area - the foreman who is responsible will send out a group of people and

take a section, do it and complete it in an efficient manner instead of spotting

here and there all over the place. So the equipment can be kept in the vicinity

or the area in which that work is being done.

MR. MANNING: Well it was more or less thought that

they would have to leave St. Bride's every day and drive to Placentia, pick up a

truck and then drive back out to Point Lance to do some ditch work, that's not

the case?

MR. EFFORD: Oh we're much more efficient than

that.

MR. MANNING: Oh yes, sure we all know that. I mean

no problem and we're glad that you are.

I have a question concerning replacement workers or

when somebody leaves, retires or whatever the case may be, when a person puts in

an application for a position with the department, is there any thought given to

people from the local area or somewhere else, or is it your fairness and balance

once again?

MR. EFFORD: Fairness and balance.

MR. MANNING: Fairness and balance, yes but is

there -

MS. VERGE: What if they come from Gander Bay?

MR. MANNING: I've had incidences in my district

over the past year where some new employees to the department have come from

outside the area into my area to work while there were people there quite

capable of doing it. I know you go through applications and interviews but

shortly after that the person left the depot and there was nobody hired

afterwards to replace that person, the St. Joseph's depot I'm talking about. I

think it was a Clerk I position, I'm not sure now off the top of my head but

there was a position there where somebody came to work there, he later moved on

and hasn't been replaced since. Is that position replaced now?

MR. EFFORD: No, what the government has done is

make a decision to freeze all rehiring for awhile because we had a number of

people retired recently from the department and we've slowed down the rehiring

process only where it's absolutely necessary for labourers or maintenance within

the department and take a look at the necessity of rehiring people. If people

retire then you have support staff in place because people have bumping rights

also, so it's not necessarily correct to say we hire outside the area. In most

cases we have no other choice because of the union collective agreement. The

bumping rights of somebody who may live in St. John's and because they have

bumping rights, if they're laid-off they may be transferred and bumping somebody

else in a different area but that's a matter of the collective agreement and the

choice of that individual, if they want to go and do that.

MR. MANNING: If a person shows up at a depot and

the other people at the depot haven't seen the job advertised, why would that

be?

MR. EFFORD: Pardon?

MR. MANNING: If a person shows up to go to work at

a depot and the job hasn't been advertised, why would that be?

MR. EFFORD: If a person shows up at a depot and

the job has not been advertised?

MR. MANNING: Shows up to go to work at a certain

depot, and -

MR. EFFORD: Well, if we have a position vacant at

St. Joseph's, and we have a person in Foxtrap whose job is being terminated,

that individual would have a bumping right, so that bumping right would bump him

right into St. Joseph's - using that as an example.

MR. MANNING: Yes, I'm just trying to get the

reasons behind it, that's all, so I can answer the questions coming to me.

A few years ago, back when there were some gravel

roads in St. Mary's - The Capes -

MS. VERGE: B.C., before Crosbie.

MR. MANNING: We have a road through Mall Bay now

that I've talked to the minister a couple of times about, and I know the answer

you would like to give, and maybe you'll still give it, the one that you give me

all the time, but that doesn't matter; I'm going to ask the question anyway.

They used to use calcium, I believe, on (inaudible).

Is that still used around the Province? I haven't seen it used in my area in a

long time because we don't have any gravel roads.

MR. EFFORD: No, because you've got no gravel roads

there to be used. That's seventeen years of Tory political decisions being made

on paving their own roads and forgetting all the rest of the roads around the

Province.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: I say it's good representation.

MR. EFFORD: Okay, that's good representation. I'm

experiencing that right now.

MR. MANNING: Seriously, is calcium used on gravel

roads in the Province now?

MR. EFFORD: Yes, where the gravel roads are going

through communities. We don't use it on all gravel roads, but where it's go