Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT FRIDAY, MAY 28, 1976 Number 73 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER

l!!ay 28, 1976 Tape no. 3001 Page 1- :nw The House met at 10:00 A.Z·!. :1r. Speaker in the ehai.r. ~!R. SPEAKER; 01:der, p-lease! I would like co welcome to the gallary on behalf of all hen. members four gentleman from the People's Republic of China. They are, Mr. Wang, who is counsellor at the Chinese Embassy in Ottawa; ~!r. Yac, the third secretary of the E:nbassy; ~- Woag, head of the ~Tew Clina ::-Tews Ag!!!1cy for Canada; and :u-. Chang, t~~ember of the staff of the lre~~ China ~ews ~..geucy.

As hon. mlll:lbers probably knew t!lis is the f:!:se visit to the P~ovince of officials of tr~ People's Republic of China, and the gentle!l!en b.a.ve visieed a number of areas, !.abrader Ciey and l~abush, Churc:hiD. Falls, Goose 3ay, ~!arystowo. and Labrador. They have been accompanied and escorted on thei: visit by Mr. Gecr;;e tee of the Extension Service of Memorial Uuiversiey. Hen. members may know as -;;ell t!!.at a group of approXimately t:wenty Newfoundlanders are going to the People's ~epublic of China in a couple of week's time or so.

Perb.a.ps I ·.Jill :nention for the benefit of our visitors - I mentioned this in pr!vate to them - there are, at least to '311 knowledge, three han. gentleu:en Ul. this House who have visited the People's Republic; the hen. member for Twilllngate ~~-Smallwood), the hen. ~inister of ~ines and Energy, and I :nyself last year. And I know I speak for all members of the people's House of this Province in welcoming the representatives of the People's Republic of Clina. SOME RON. lm!BEl'S : Hear , he..ar! !ilt. SPEAKER: ~!R. PECKFORD: STA!ZMENTS BY ~fnTISTERS: The hen. Minis eer of ~!unicipal Affairs and Housing. !1r.

Speaker, I shnuld like to give che House some information relating to the housing si~~tion in che P~ce. On nUlllerous oecasions in ~he past several weeks, ! sup~ose, and even mouths, there have been various press releases issued by ~Y office, ao.d issued by agencies of government and various releases to the racio stations in particular about the housing situation and Nhat the government of chis 9Q56

May 28, 1976 Tape !lO. 3001 Page 2 - mw Mr. Peckford. Province is trying to do. I thought it appropriate, therefore, Mr. Speaker, to outline in facts and figures for the hon. House and for members opposite just what we are doing in the Province to indicate that one of the ::~ere optimistic things in the economy of the Province right now is the housing field. Mr. Speaker, there is a R-J.ral Loans Pl'Ogramme in effect, a P'ederal/Pro.otncial. !!.ural Loans Programme,£or the Province which covers just about all the province except sineen areas which are covered by CMHC for mortgage lending.

But all the rest of the Pl'Ovtnce has this Rural Loans Programma. ~ow years ago the Rural Loans Programme, as initiated by the federal gov&r.~~~~ant at the time and the provincial gover=ent at the time, involved in its early days a maximum a!!ICunt of $7,000 or $8,000 to loan for :,uil.ding of new homes. Over the years that ~ has been increased on several occasions going from $8,000 to $10,000 to $12,000, $14,000 up to $18,000, and now we loan in rural parts of the P=vinca ove'I' $20,000, sometimes even as high as $25,000 to individuals who are building homes and have some title Co their land.

The impor1!ant thing about the programme is that we try to be flexible and not as st'I'ingant as amc and other lending inseitutions, especially as it involves land title. Fo~ example, an individual, if he has a bill of sale duly signed by a Justice of the Peace and so on with the p'I'O'pB'I' mar!dngs would be sufficient in order for him to obtain a mortgage rather than have to go through all· the legal problems of getting~a deed or grane or whatever. MR. SMALL'WOOD: they have to prove clear title? }!R. PECXFORD: Clear title, yes. But we try to be flexible in it, especially in the smaller communities. HR.

ROBERTS: ~!R. PECKFORD: Okay, well clear title. 9~·1 . ...

!-'".ay 28' 1$76 Tape no. 3001 Page 3 - ll1W Hr. Peckford. There is a reduction this year in the number of applications approved under the Rural Loans Programme, because as most hen. members know there is some reluctance on the part of individuals this year because of inflation and the economic situation to get involved in a heavy inVestment like a new home. The total dollar value up to May is higher, because the loans are higher. The number of loans per se is down . Last year · in 1975 at this point in time, we had colllllitted 201 loans under the Rural Loans Prograll!llle.

So at this point in time this year we have only committed 135. MR. SMALLIVOOD: Why? MR.. PECKFOlU>: Well,! was just giving the reasons why_ I .though.t in my

preamble. I think people are a little more reluctant to get into inVesting in homes right now, because of the uncertainty in the higher costs and so on. But the dollar value has increased . The 201 loans last year constituted $3.4 million. This year the 135 loans constitutes $3.5 million. So the amount of each loan has gone up which indicates that the price of building a home has escalated substantially over the last year which, of course, we all look upon with some concern. But that is the story on our Rural Loans Programme, Mr.

Speaker, and there are other facts and figures there that I wi.l.l pass on to hon. members. In the land development field, where we ge-e into land assemblies and so on, where we service, say, a piece of land which the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation has bought or gotten from the Crown over the years, because we have a very active land banki:lg programme that has been illto effect for some time, it might be interesting for hon . members to realize that on the land development side in Corner Brook, there are 200 lots now on sale to perspective nameowners .

In Arnold's Cove we are in there with 120 lots, and they will be going on sale within the next month. Now the point of Arnold's Cove, of course, a number of years ago, because 9t5-S-

~!ay 28-; 1976 Ta.pe no: 3001 Page ~ - 1llW Mr. Pec:kfo~d. of tha Come ay ~c:e oil refinery and other ac:~vieies in eha.t area - bad gone into eh:ta la.ud assembly. Of· c:curse ,!l.O'ii ·! imagine it is going tG be ratl!,er d1fficlllt to sell all ::hose lots in a given years. and. it mig1U: taka a ~r of years eo do so. ~ S.'tU.LWOOD: Are ~re laud banks in other places within ruaoaable d:ia·tance of Come ay Chance. besides Arnold • s Cave2 ~m.. P!!ClQORD: Yes. ML SMALI.WOD~ Swmys~de? MR. PECIO'OBll: Yes, mel Clareuville.

AJ:nold' s Cove, 120 lees will go an sale wi.thiA the aut monch; D&U.el's ~,whera the a.ew ·m.:.~.ne is lac:ate4, lot.s Will go 011 sale witlWl the next fev days. In .lla!U.eJ.'s Rabour the fifty-five lot: development eha.t we have dona there is to as&i.st in housing in Daniel.' s aarbour. Deer La.~, ZS lots, additicuaJ. lad recenUy ac'l{uired from Bawaters wtU.ch ·Will prO-vide aa extra s:tz I.o•a, ... 905-S

"ay 28, 1976 '!ape 3002 I!l-1 "!! • PE 0::J'(1"T' : and these lots rnust no9 be serviced before the area is placed on sale. Hiru!sor, ei~hty lots, construction not,, twenty-five per cent coi'Iplete and const'rUction recommenced this month ,in "ay. :"arysto'!.'Il, s~y-two lets and they are to go on sale within the next fet,• llllmths. Spr:!.ngdale,in the great historic district of Green Bay, fifty lots~ill soon be ready to go on sale, the construction on the full subdivision, MP..

S :-'.AUl~!'l: ... , • PE Cla'Ol'l': Phat district was that? '!hat is the district of - nat Baie Verte - ~ite Bay ar1d not Windsor-'!luchans but it is in between there - Mr... sr~..u.Yoo!l : ~. l'E C':M!'!> : "!' . PECK~,!.!: ~r. Speaker. Between the two? That is right. It is in between the two, "'es. Is there a hy-election there? Is there a hy-elect~on there? Not to my knowledge, Corner Brook, phase three of the !!izabeth Street develop~ent, there was a contract ~4arded to Lundrigan's Lir.ited in the amount of Sl.5 million. Port aux Basaues, s~-four lots. ~~ .. N'!ARY: Already on sale.

Lots on sale, right. ~abush, 270 lots we are gettin~ in there in land assembly, foll~~g successful negotiations "'"ith !Te ... •foundland and Labrador F!ydro for takeaver , of electrical services, contract for subdivision servicing awarded to R.J. O'Connell of Wabusr.. !he amount of the low tender was S1.6 million. Stephenville, 200 lots, clean-up work nm.• underway, undeTgTound electrical servicing to be installed, anticipated lf't sales in June. ~larenville, fifty lots, construction no~ fifty-nine per cent eo!!!pleted. We !!!ight as well call it sixt"!'.

Lots are ant:!.cipatec:' to go on sale in mic SUI!I!!Ie-r. The propose~ land ass~blies that we are looking at ri~ht no-..• are in Gander~fcr phase three of the northeast land assembly, 200 9060':

~'ay 28, 1976 !ape 3~02 D-2 lots:, detailed planning now being coll'pletec! •..rith fi.elc surveys now unc!ervay. Anticipated t=c!er call in July. Areas under investigation for :!!Ore land assemblies, Port: ,.,.nion, St.

Anthony, Bonavist:a, in the Curling area where ~here is a :!IP area there right now and Bishop Falls. l·Te are into sotr.e industrial parks •·mich have been started for a nUlciler of years. !here is c:!.ffic:ulty in the industrial park or co'l!ll!lercial park field right: UC'I'ol' hecause of funding fro~ ~PEE and it is difficult ~~ acquire federal funds for some of these developments that were started years a~o. ~eer take, forty acres and design work is in progTess. ~arenville, eighteen acres, a plann~g concept developed for an area on the nort~ side of the access to the highway.

Approval in principle received from the town council. ~·re ""ill be d.isposing of lands there very shortly. Gander, 100 acres for a large in~ustrial park where commercial fi~s need big acreage for their kind of developtr.ent. !n the public hcusing field we are into ~eneuse wi.tn five units. They are co~leted,with four units occupied. Crand !'alls, thirty units, sizty-t'!·'O per cent completed. Stephenville_, thirty units, thirt:y-.:~ne per cent cOlll';lleted. ClarenV'!lle, thirty units,fifty-ei~i:.t per cent COl!!Pleted. Botwood, ten units, fifty per cent co~lated. -Har~our r.race, fifteen units.

Site preparation is now underway in Earbour Grace. reer Lake, six units,forey-five per cent c0111pleted. Co-rner 3rook, :our units seventy-eight per cent completed,and Labra~or Ci~y. We hope to be on with the Labra~or City public housing project very soon •vi thin the next few ~ays. ~reo:~ projects in the housing. In Co-rner Brook, twenty- seven row housing and another one of eight row housing. Stephenville, fifty-~o row housing. ~eer Lake, four semidetached. four demidetached .and one single and six semidetached. !.B".Jisporte, Rousin~t under investigation in Port aux Bascues, public housing, St. Anthony

~·ay 28, 19 76 !ape 3002 IB-3 !~. PE~J): Windsor and Gander. So, ~~r. Speaker, this gives you some ic!ea of the activities that are presently underway in the Province excluding St. John's really here because that is really separate because of the larger, the Newt~~ and St. John's Rousing Corporation and the other agencies that deal with housing in the city. It will give you SOI!!e idea of the activity that is undei"'··ay in the Province in relation to housing anc hopefully it will help to offset some of the more detrimental effects of inflation in the more restraint times that we find ourselves in.

Before the hen. ~inister sits down coulc he give us any idea of the grand total amount that may be spent on housing, public money,and how much of it is from Ottawa in this year. ~- PEcr.FO __ : The total amount this year in 1976, this is everything, current capital, will be,through the Newfoundland and Labrador Rousinr Corporation,approachin~ $50 million. A lot of that money,of course, is federal money, a lot of it being loans 1 of course. Y~ • S~'-.\LL woon: )'ry,, PECXFOP~: But not through dlem? Throu[!'h then> - An obstinate group. Oh, I do not know. I could not say. It would be more than that.

Thank you, .,..r. Speaker . Hear, hear! The hon. ~inister of Fisheries. "'r. Speaker, I apologize to me Rouse for not having a prepared text of the state~nt I am going to make concerning the state of the fishing industry, I suppose · you would call it, but I do have some very encouraging statistics. I think the Rouse woulc probably be interested in hearing them. ~r. Speaker, I am very happy to inforM the House that fish landings are up pretty well all over the Province. !f you bear with rr.e ! t,Tfll read sol!'e statistics here. Ynu are doin? a great job. ...: ... 9~ ..

~·ay 28,1976 Tape 3002 I'E-4 !'he figures I am ~uot'!.ng, ~·-r. Speaker, are COI!'!'ared trlth figures released for the sa!!!e period last year. In the LaScie area last year there were ~o f!s~ landings. This year, 144,626 pcunds. !willingate area, the area of !ltll" hen. f'riand, last year landings T~re nil, to date 500,000 pounds. TTalleyfield area, last year, 215,000 pounds, this year, ~00,000 pounds. SQ1J!E rrmt. ~"n'!Et!S: Hear, ~ear! !he ~ildo area, it has been 9retty well steady there. Last year, 1 million pounds, this year, the same ~uantitv, 1 milliou.

Rant's ~arhour, landings are up by 25,000 pounds. ~ay de Verde area, last year, nil, this year, 250,00" t:o date. In that great and historic and traditional fishing district of St. ~<ary's-!he Capes, last year, 74,000, this year, 1,648,000 pounds. :!ear, hear! ~r. Speaker, fishemen in many areas of the !'"t"Ov'...nc:e are landing f"t"Om 7,000 pounds to a high of 24,000 pounds per day. I co n~t have re~rts fro:c all over the P-rovince. We are getting them in 'out certainly I will submit thel!l to the House as they come in. But for my hon. friend for !.a.Poile O~r.

Neary), he is going to be very ha'P'PY to lea-rn that landings in his area are up by forty par cent over last year. Sr~ P.ON. HEMBEF.S: !'!ear, hear! ''!'. ~!f. CA..'I>'!'E:P.: Fishemen in his area a-re ·having a excellent year. In salmon fishiDg, for example 9 they landing 1,500 to 2,500 pounds a week and !:hey are getting $1.30 a pound.. So it &l'Pears to be a p"t'OS'Perous year. Mit. LUNDRIGAN: .J'!t. W. CAF.'l."E?.: Tfuat about Grand ?alls. Grand Falls? 'l!fe are waiting on a report frol!! Grand Falls and Gander. ~r.

Speaker, seriously it is quite obvious that we are shaping up to be a b~er year in fisheries this year, an excellent . year. I think ~ainly because of the intensified effort maybe ~re people are getting back into the boats. 9'063

~ay 28, 1976 !ape 3002 IB-5 ~-· NEA.!tY: Can the plants hanc!le all of that? "1'. ~\. ("-" ~": The plants to date have been a~le to hanc!le all the fish, yes . ''R . N"J.l''! ; We are not going to ~~ve to dump any fish1 "'!' .. 'H. CA.!''!'!P .: I doubt :!.t very l!!llch if we will. ~ "!'~ · S'.''_!.LLVOO.I' : Can the l!dnister compare these figures now t-.~th the figures of the year before last. Last year there were no fish because the Whole coast ~~s blockec! with ica. "1' •• Lm."DP.I GAN: No, it was the year before. t·Jas it? Yes, 1974.

That was the year I lost the election mai~y because of the ice. ~~-Speaker, I do not have t'he figures for 1974. But last year was an ice-free year pretty well. I ~very happy, "r. Speaker, to annotmce a~ well that the T'.S. market fo-: fish product is good . The prices are up ccnsic!eracly ever last year. 'I'he catches . of henillg,for exa1!!ple,I ar told by Ocean Harvesters that they are having a bll!."Per crop in herring. I can speak for the St . ~~ry's district. The situation is si~ar do~m there. The fishermen there are getting a let of herring. Bay of Islands are, the same way pretty well. So , '!'r .

Speaker, to sum up I think this will be an excellent year in fisheries. I think tbis is very important because 1976 probably more than any other year, it is important that our fishermen do well because of some of thP- setbacY.s that have occurred. No doubt a good year this year. as I am sure it ~~1 be, ~~11 encoura~e others to get back in the boats next year. So I a~ very happy to bring this little report to the Rouse and I ~ sure that my colleagues will ~elcome it as I have. !!:ear, hear! 9061

:·lay 28, 1976 Tape no. 3003 ?age 1- IliW :·!R. SPEAKER: Tne hon. Leade~ of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Thank j'OU, ~Ir. Speake~, and, of eou~se, all of us on this side, :rr. Speaker, 1•elcome the ne•.os given us by the ~inistar of Fishe~ies. What is good for the Fisheries Department,to paraphrase the old statement, '~Jhat is good fo~ the fishe~ies. is good fo~ N'ewioundland and Lab~ador." And all l need say, 1 t~, ~.

Speaker, is that we welcoce it. we hope that the ~nister's ?rediction of a ~umper year at the fisheries proves to be a eorrect prediction. ~ of us devoutly and deeply wish that,no ~tter ~hat side we sit a~ no matter what our political feelings and our political associations. The f:ishe:ry is of such tmpo~tance to so ~y parts of this ?ro~ce that a good fishery cannot but have the effect of helping every single part of this P!'cvince. I am particularly pleased that the N'orth East Coast seems to be com~g along so well, although as yet there ~~s been little fishug activity north of the LaScie plant area.

Port au Choix,I would say,for the benefit of the minister is doing extremely well and that is having the benefit of helping St. Anthony and the plant there is open earlier than it has been in the last three or four years.

We. all hope that this tre!!d ·A"iJ.l continue. ~;;e all hope that the fishery will continue to prosper, anci •.oe all hope, Sir, that governments will take some action to make it so, becawe ! think it is fair to say that what has happened so far this year, che good news that the minister reports to us, the welcomed good news, is not the result of any accion that he has taken or that even the Go'?'ernm.ent at Ottawa have ~aken, it is t:.'le result - ~tR. LUND:RIGA.'t :1R. ROBERTS: MIL LUNDRIGAN: MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: Pol~tics! . ~othio~ but politics! No, t!:r. Speaker. :{r.

Speaker, che hon. gentleman - Stop calking politics. O~der, please! -Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman has repor~ed good news, and we are pleased to hear it, but I ~-10uld like to hear still better news, Sir, and I still think there are actions which gove~ent can take to improve the fishery, and I ~uld say eo ehe minister 9~~5 .. ~

!1ay 28, 1976 Tape no. 3003 Page 2 - mw ~!r. Roberts. that while his news is welcomed, it wo'uld be infinitely more welcomed, Sir, if be could stand and announce that this gove_~ent were going to take some positive steps, Sir, to help the fisheries and the fishermen of this Province. Thank you. SOME RON • !IDmERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER:­ MR. 5!-lAI.I.WOOD: The han. member for Tlrll.lingate. Mr. Speaker, I wish to congratulate the hen. Pr~er on his selection of Minister of Fisheries.

We have the evidence now today that it was an excellent choice, the best Minister of Fisheries we have had since the former one, the present ~..;l.nister of Mines and Energy, and I congratulate the minister. It is good work. This is good news - lots of fish in Bonavista Harbour, and Cape St. Mary's pays for all. It seems like lots of fish, it seems like good price, it seems like good market. I wonder though if the ainister can tell us if he has any indication yet as to what proportions? Is there any change this year in the proportions of the fish that will be salted and will be frozen?

Is there any i~dication of that? Perhaps I do not know whether I should wait for questions to ask him for the answer , but just as dawn through our 150 years of our history, a good seal hunt started the year off with a bang, and put life and spirit and encouragement in people's hearts s so now this kind of news of good fish, good catch, good price, good !llarket, should put heart in thousands of our people, and we can all feel quite pleased and happy about it. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Rear , hear! MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, if I can answer the questions put to me.

I think there will be more fish salted this year, because the price has gone up ," I think for one grade of fish from thirty-three cents a pound to thirty-seven cents. MR. ~.ALLWOOD: The proportions. MR. W. CARTER: I think the proportions - there will be core salt fish proportionately this year than last year, yes. The price is much higher this year , too. I < 9068

~!a.y 28, 1976 mt: Sl'EA.'CE'R: MR. ROBERT: 1-m.. ROUSSEAU: Tape no. 3003 Page 3 - !:IW The han. ~finister of ?orestry and Agriculture. Is t~e~e another election coming up or ~hat.? Yo, this is the do-nothing government, you know. As hon. members may or may not know, ~. Speaker, we have had same problems with utilization of the abattoir up in Corner Brook, and •.Je have been t~ng t, find some waY in which we could provide for a greater utilization of the abattoir.

As hen. members will note in the budget there is an amoUJJ.t of a grant in there for a little over $2 million towards l'arm Products. ·.-e would hope that bot~ the ooeration in Corner Brook and in St. John's would same day becdme self-suffici~nt.

So today I am pleased to announce a one year agreement b~tween ~ewfoundland :'arm Products and Island Meat Packers of P=ince Edward Island for the ~portation and slaught~ing and =keting of beef cattle. at the Comer Brook abattoir. !his agreement will increase t~e utilization of this facility and is based as much as possible on a cost recovery of the slaughterin~ operations. ?rincipals of Island Meat Pac~ers have advised us that this company is prepared ::o encourage the production of beei c.attle.on t~e west Coast of Newfoundlaud by purchasing local products and provj_ding a marketing service.

Because !llarket develOl)lllent is a prior requirl!:!lent for private io;vestment by local producers, it is felt that importation is a natural first step. This will not be to the detriment of the local producer, but rather to his advantage in the long run.

And indeed •.1e ':lave a clear and unequivocal and unmistakaole understanding with these paoule that •men the ~~~arkets are established, and they will do the marketing themselves, that indeed they will encourage the production of beef in the Pro~ce,and where the beef is available in the P~ovince, it will be purchased here and slaughtered here and marketed here, and not imported. But until sue~ time as they have to provide the ma~keting ability, they 'ilill be bringing some in. But any that are available they will certainly buy on the West Coast. You ~ean it will be slaughtered and then suip it out? !rOS7

Uay 28, 1976 Tape no. 3003 Page 4 - mw MR. ROUSSEAU: No, no, market it and sell it, the market here in the Province. Over the years numerous policies have been introduced by various govermnents to encourage the upgrading of livestock through suc:h means as bull bonuses, arti£ic::ia.l insemination, c011111unity pastures and land clearing. The evaluation of these programmes has been limited to cattle shows at loc:al exhibitions. The aba,t:to:irs at St.

John's and Corner Brook,operated ander ~rieulture of Can.ad:JL, Realth of Animals B;oanch Standar1!s.• have given us for the first time the opportunity to determine the true value of livestock improvement policies. The result of this initiative should be to encourage loc:al cattle raising through the provision of professional slaughtering and marketing. I am optimistic: about this agreement, and over the next year will be monitoring its progress with much interest. It: is a one year agreement only. We Wa:!lt to see what it is like.

The gentleman is coming in really on a fire, because once he sets up the markets . and we dec:il!e not to c:ont!llue for another year, well the market is stlll there for our own use in the Province. So we. are very pleased that :.his will be done, both from the issue of the utilization of the abattoir in Corner Brook, the utilization of our own product, the stimulus I hope to the raising of beef, especially on the West Coast, and the supply here in our own Province -of our own market• SOME l'!ON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear~ MR. SPEAKER: The bon. l.eader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, I have been sitting here listening to the third of these ministerial statements, and I was thinking what name we could put on them, and I guess the only real name would be the Friday morning follies, because we h.ave DDW had a half hour taken up with statf!!lleuts, Mr. Speaker, although I think they are getting better, because the ~~ster of Forestry and Agriculture has at least told us something that we did not know, and could not have 9068.

:ray za, 1976 Tape o.o. 3003 ?age 5 • 1liW :-!r. Rober~s. found out. lnd so I congratulate h~ on that. To turn to the substance of his s~at~t. Sir, of course, it is ~elcome news. The aba~~ir· at Corner 3rook, which is a project, I balieve, of the Liberal administration with substantial help from DREZ , that abattoi _r_, Sir, has consumed a large number of public dollars. d.nd wh.ile the ~rinister of :-lines and Energy, I ~hink, said it ;;as a disaster, well I do not think that is correct, Sir. :1R. CROSBIE : ~- ROBERTS: !t has ~een a f~cial disaster.

The ~ister ~utters again ~hat it has been a financial di.sastar. I do ~at think that is correct either, but I am not allowed to debate it nor is the ~inister. All ! ~ say, :::ir.

Speaker, is that the abattoir b.a.s consumed a large nul!lber of dollars, and any steps ·.;hich can be :aken to increase the put­ through of cattle on one end and the output of ~eat products on the other end are <Oelcome, and it is ?articularly w--elcome if any steps can be taken to encourage the long struggling local beef industry. ! suppose we should regret in a sense that we have to bring in a Prince Edward Island firm to slaughter ~eat. ~ey are not doing anything here e.:tcept providi:lg a service, a catlyst in a. chemical compound to ::lake the reactl.Qn ~or!c •. -Ul t!J.ey •Hill be doing is the slaughtering and the ~arketing, but if nobody in the Province will take up the challenge and do t!J.is then,o£ course, we must turn to P.Z.!.

I hope that tbe ?.!.!. fira's stay here ~.nll be short, out b.appy. I hope they will have a very successful stay. ! hope it will oe a very brief stay, because somebody local will take it up,and why cannot sowebody local import the oeef from P.E.I. and, you know, :nalul a deal •.rith the abattoir and have :he beef slaughtered and theu marketed here. Mr.

Speaker, the only other comment I would ill.ak.e on this is the ~ister, I think . - and I noted down the words as ! heard them across the House - said something like, and he <Oeut very quickly ~ reading this part of his statement - I have the statement, the clerk has just brought it to me now and, yes, the =rds are there "The agreement 9069

~lay 28' 1976 Tape 110. 3003 Page 6 - IIW Mr. Roberts. will increase the utilization of this facility. The minister went very ~owly in reading that part of it. Then w~t very qui.ckly when he came to the words wb,ich said, "And is based as much as possible on a cost recovery of the si.aughtering operation." Now that is 9070 '

May 21, 1976 Tillie 3004 PK - 1 Mr. Roberts: a polite way, a. ·public relations way, a roundabout way of saying \ . that there is going to be an element of ~ubsidy,that the amounts to be recovered will noe meet the costs. That is what ! read in to the minister's statement. And I 'Jould make my c0111111ent in the fo-rm of a question, eha 111iniater, you know, has the opportunity when the leader of ehe other party here has said vhat he lli.shes to say, the lllinuter has the Ol'POrtunity tlllder our rules to say a '.lOrd or two.

I wauld ask him if be vould tell ua es.actly what is involved in this, whether there "llill be a subsidy or "Oat. I a111 "Oat necessarily objecting to it. I think the position - torould take would riepend upon the full facts. But I llllt!rely point out that is an unusual way to p~t it, it does not say it is based on a cost recovery. What it says is it is based as much as possible on a cost recovery, and of course that could mean everything or it could aan not:hing. And so I ask the minister if he would expand upon it in that light.

Other than that, Sir, the agreel!Bnt is torelcO!IIIl·•and : I would congra~te the lllinister because really his statement is by far and atfK1 the best of the three which we have had this 1110rning. I think this ll.abit the lllinisrry have developed of consUIIIIIIing large mounts of time O'll Friday 1110rning in an ateempt to h:i.t ehe weekenci press llith these statamsnts .should be recopized for llb.ac it is. But the minister to his credit,unlike his colleagues, the minister to his credit has told WI S01111!thi%1g that - did act la:low, and could aet have known, and so ·I think he should be congratulated, Sir.

MR. • SPEAJCER. : The hem. member for TwiJ.li.ngate. MR. J. R. ~..AI.I.WOOO: ~. Speaker, wha~ the minister has =unced is all rlgh~, it is fine. There is aoehing wrong "!lith it. I hope it vill lead to scaethiag even bet~er. I hope that what i.s an I!Xl)erilllent will succeed. I am all for it. ! 1.cnow nothing that I can think of to say against it. Aad I am noe sure that I would say it if I,did think of ic, because I am all for it. But while ! am a~ it would the minister lis~en intently and even lDOre important perhaps, and he 'Jill 110t be offended when I say

May 28, 1976 Tape 3004 PK- 2 Mr. Smallwood: this, would the Premier listen. The Premier is the leader of the goverament, he is the leader of the Administration, and there is a charge to be laid against ~be government, against his Administration, and that is their failure, to do ao.ething about the equivalent establishment that is here in St. John's down at Port Pepperr~.

Nov the fo1:mer admi.nistl:atiou built a monm:aent, a great mou'IZIIIe11t in Corner Brook; unfortunately the use that baa been ll&de of it ia very, -.rery inadequate, .md it ia probably the c:aae that it is losing 11101Jey as a going coucern because it is not going enough or big enough. Now this III&Y help to remedy it.

But down at Fort Pf!l'Perrell we h~e an equivalent plant which with a slight :illprovement will ba of tremendaus hel'P to the farme.n ou the Avalon P-a.sula. la the Premier aware of the fact, as his lll:Lnillter is, is he 811are of the fact that there are 'People now who ~e to slow down in the production of pork on this Peninsula, slow down in tae productiou of broilers on this Peninsula, slow down in the production of beef and IIIUt:OU and lmb, not because the plant dCIWil '!:here camlOt handle it; the plant can.

The trouble down there is there is not enough cold storage, because a coucoaitant of a plant of that ldDd is cold storage. The b-f or the IINtton or what ha-.re you ~mat go, and the pork, into cold storage at controlled temperature. .Uui there is not enough of controlled temperature facility down there to handle what the plane can handle. Therefore the farmers have to prod~e laaa than they are C&l'able of doing, produce lua than the marker will absorb.

It is a scandalous th:lug • It is not less than sCC1dal.aus • The Province is trying so dasperately, especially these younger ministers vho are oa.t trying desperately to increase production, get men employed, strengthen the economy with the basic resources of the Province, and while that is going on on the one hand, on the otl'ler the bog raiaen. the broiler raisers, the beef cattle raisers, the sheep raisers, the pork raisers are all forced to raise leas than they are quite capable of raising and amd.OUII to raisa. The lll&rket is here. 9072

May 28, 1976 Tape 3004 PK - 3 !'!:r. Smallwood: They have the facilities. The killing facilities are down there. Thera 1a just one boctleneck~not enough cold storage. Now I undeneand frOID the minister, and I am happy to bear it ,that the government plan to duplicate the Corner Brook establlsb:ment with a new establisbments~mewbere here on the East Coast. Good! That 111ay be two or three yean frOID 110W. By tillle the 1110ney is v01:ed for it, and. the contract is let, and the building is construe 'ted, yoa are talking about a couple or three years off.

Tlto or three years 1110%'8 of the farmers forced to produce lese than they are capable of proctac:ing, less than they are amd.ous to produce, less than the m.arket rtll take, all for the sake of a bit of c:old. storage. I appeal t:o the Prem.er~ lle can he.l.p greacly by finding the 1110ney, asking !U.s Mini.atar of FinaJ:Ice to find the couple or three hundred thousand dollars that are needed fo-r this basic: requirement of agriculture in Newfotmd.land. Bu1: iu the me.a.time I do congratulate the minister, and the gove~ut on this ;muoun~nt that he has made today. MR. SPUKER: The hou.

Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. J. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, just to reply to the hon. Leader of the ~ait1oa.. Thera is ao subsidy iz:rvolved. Why we say"aa 1IIIICh as poaaible hera 11 1s that there · is au asr-t between Farm Products ano the c:~auy, to the best of our ability we llill recover the coat, and that is why it is just a short tem. We have est:1ma1:ed. what the c:oa1: ll1.ll be, aDd I will be prepared by the way to table the asreement .iD the liouae, there is tiCI problem til ere.

The only reason ..,. say that is bec.auae we c:.an only estillla1:e wha~ the r:oet will be because there will be a produc1:iou, and that i.s the only way that should be read. in my part: of not getting our 1110ney bac:k. And for the hou. member for t'willingac:e,I did no1: ant!Ciunc:e that ..,. would have a 11- abattoir, I said the government was aware of the problems we had at the facility here in St. John's and consideration would have to be given over the next few years to 9073

May 28, 1976 'tape 3004 PK- 4 Mr. Rousseau: improVing it in a way. I have not announced a uew abattoir. I would love to, md hopefully in the next aumber of years we will. !ut we are aware of the problelll8 down there, and certainly we have to work to try and - MR. SMALLWOOD: HR. ROUSSEAU: HR. SMALI.WOD: HR. ROUSSEAU: MR. SMALLWOOD: That is a somewhat distant solution. Yes. In the memtl.lle there is a plant, Right. And what about the plants cold storage? PRESBRTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for !aie Ve.rte-White Bay. HR. T. RIDEOUT: Mr.

Speaker, I wish to pruent a peti~ signed by ieYenty-five resident& of the cOIIIIINI1ity of Woodstoclc..

And having heard the glowing aaci encouraging fishery statistics giYen to us by the minister this morning, maybe it is a good time to present a petition related to the fiahery. 'the residents of Woodstock are aald.ng that as soon as reasonably and financially possible that a eaaaunity stage be constructed in the eo-nity of Woodstock so that the fishermen will h&Ye a facility, 'llhich they do not have now, to lmd. their fiah so it can be held, there, md in sa.. cases salted. there, but held there so it can be tt11111rp0rted tn good quality to the fish plmt in LaScie.

I thiJik., Sir 1 this pwn:ition bderlies what I have been trying to say in dU.s House in the put couple of speeches, that we have tov.tet away from the concept on the llaie Verte Peninsula that there is nothing related to the economy of that area only mining. '!'here are a :aumbe.r of people in Woodstock who have been fishermen for the past number of ya.rs • And there are many, liUIIlY more over the ~aat coaple of years who have gone back to the fishery.

I believe that is encouraging, Sir, and I think we as a govena~~ent should encourage that further, and if we are going to do th&t,one of the mast concrete ways we can do it ia to provide proper facilities 907 4.

May 28, 1976 !ape 3004 PK - 5 Mr. Rideout: for them to land and process their fish. Mr. Speaker, I support the prayer of the petition. I ask that it be tabled and referred to the department to which it relates. MR. SP!AXER.: The hou. Mini.ster of Fisheries. RON. W. c.&..RTnt.: Mr. Speaker, I will certainly take the prayer of ehe petition in cOUJiiderad.ou, and I ca assure the member and ehe Rowse that we qill do what we can to sec to their request. MR.. SPEAKER: The hou. Leader of the Oppoeitiou. RON. P!. K. !!DB!RTS : Mr.

Speaker, if I may say just a w~n:d or two 1: support of the petitio: presented by -ary friend and colleague the me~~ber for Baie Verte-~ite Bay. Aa he saye the area is a fishing area, al.though we often tend to think of the Burlington Peninsula whatever - 1s it the Baie Verta Peuins~ it is called now? MR.. RIDEOUT: The Baie Verte Peninsula, yes. MR • RO:BExrs : It used to be called the Burllngtou Penins~. Sir, hav things ehange.

But the Baie Verte Peninsula then, to put that ~ l18lla on it, 1.s often thought of as be!ng a mil:l.ing area only, and while it 1.s certUnly a significant ad.ning area, and vhile the ~ties arom~.d Baie Verte, you lcnov, prosper on the ad.ning iD.dwn::y, then are nonetheless substantial fishing cOIIIIIIUnities in the area, and the !ifoodstoek-Pacquer:: area fr0111 which t~s petition comes in oae of those areas. Tlle request I think is a rauon&ble one. The amount of !DOlley invol"ftd should not be very large.

I do not know what the going rate for c:ommmiey stages is, bue I do not think it: i.s a great deal of money in the overall scheme of th!nga. And if it will help these fishermen, Sir, che better co_ process their catch, and chus co ~et a better price, then I think their reque.st should be given cousideratiou and favourable considerat1ou. Let me coucluee, Mr. Speaker, by ' saying that we are seeing h<ll'peu nov in the fishing indust-ry something <lhieh I chink is very welcome, and the Minister of Fisheries I think is doing

"ay 28, 19 76 Tar>e 3005 Til-l ~-· l>OBER'!'S : his part to~'ar~s helping it,anrl the ~inister of ~isheries at Ott~~a and the Government of Canada are certa~ly doing there part, and ~hat is efforts to try to L~rove quality,because we are more and more realizing that one of the proelems we do have in the marketin~ of our fish is that it is not always of the quality which it could be or which it should be.

One of the steps ~~ich has been taken,as Your Honour representin~ the ".aritil!le district of Haterforc-;Kenl!'oU!lt is doubtless int~ately aw~re, is that the Government of Canada have brousht in increasingly strict regulatjons about ouality control anrl these col!le back to increasL~gly strict recuir~ents about the type of facilities in whicr. fish is processed. If I ~ not mistaken no fish for sale for human consumption can be processed now in this Province - at least l~~ully processed - unless it is done in a facility that has a canc~te floor and it has fresh running water and has other desirable features.

Well, Sir, that is good and it should be encouraged. It should be a cardinal point of public policy. nut, !'r. Speaker, that reouire!l'ent !!lust be met by enabling fishermen to have access to these facilities. They cannot provide them th~elves. The day of a stage,as we knew it,is gone. The day of a man going and cutting so!l'e lumber and having it s~"'t up~and cuttin!!' a few longers and making hi~self a stage, that day is ~one.

I do not suppose one per cent of the fish• of Newfoundland today is processed in stages. }~c certainly every encouragement is to be given to processing it in community stages as opposed to the ole- ' fashioned individual sta~e. The rl.ay ~dll come when the }·cinister of Touri~ ~n11 have to build a couple of fishing stages in the Heritage ~illage or some~1ere just to sho~ what they are like so that people coming to the Province,or even our own people~will know what they are. Hell, !"r. Speaker, I guess we have come away from the co~unity stage in ~oodstock. The community stage in Woodstock, Sir, 90'76 . : t

~-·ay 28, 1976 Tape 3005 IB-2 ~'!'.. t'IJBE?.TS : is the coming thing in the fishery sense and I hope the gove~~nt, Sir, will treat this petition with the merit-or treat it en the merit. I think it has a ve-ry great deal of merit and I ,.,ould hope that the ~inister of Fisheries is able to pry out of his tight-fisted but amiable the Minister of Finance, sufficient money to give the people of F'oo~stock this facility this year. Fear, hear! :~ .• SP'I"JKE!t: !he han. Yinister of ?!.sheries. !·'!'.. '-1. C.~:t : ~·r.

Speaker, ! have the honour co present a petition signed by all of the residents of Admiral's Beach, (') 'Donnells in St. Joseph's <micl: of course is in the district of St. ~~a-ry' s-!he Capes. !~ • !lOOl\Y' : Any uoodys in it? Lots of ~oodys here. The prayer of the petition, ~~r. Speaker, is that the road from Admiral's Beach to St. Joseph's be paved. Ac'miral 's Beach is nov the site of a ve-r;r !Ir!portant fisheries exper!:Bnt having to do with quality control,as my friend, the Leader of the Opposition, mentioned a moment ago.

There are a lot of fish being caught in Admiral's 3eac."l ~ last year I think around S million pounds-. !To doubt this 1ear chat figure will be greatly increased. To have to haul that fish over ~elve or fourteen ~iles of unpaved road, ~·r. Speaker, does very little to add to its quality. ! commend this petition to my colleague, the ~·inister of Transportatien. I know thae he will be very happy eo do ~hae So, l'r. Speaker, I aslt: leave to table chis petition and have it referre~ to the department to ~nich it relates. ~'F. Sl'EAKI!:'O ~ !'he hon. Leader of the Opposition. ~- ~f'~E"TS: !-~-r.

Speaker, in the absence of C!IY colleag:ue, the mel!!ber for Fogo (Capt. 'N'insor) who not'!".all y speaks for us on fisheries rtatters - but he is ato7ay fro!!! the Fouse because he is ; ·'. 90~7

~'ay 2!!, !976 Tape 3005 Ill-3 YP.. l"OBF.r'TC: : currently in the district of Fogo and ! have no roubt gettjng some first-hand kne>!declge cf the f:!.shinr col'!lllissions there at this

titre - let 1'!e say a •.Jorci or ~>o in support of the petition presented by the '~inister of ~isheries in his capacity as the meeber for St. ~·an• 's-l'he Capes (>'r. P. C".arter) . The prayer of the petition speaks for itself, ~ir, and I think the case is ~ell mace. There are silrllar cases in very many parts of Newfoundland and Labrador. The l;orthern reninscla is a cJ assic exar.:ple;because fish there is more and more being trucked to the fish plants in Port au ~oiY. or at St. Anthony, long distances over dusty roads.

Certainly ! t-roulc:' not tJant to eat some cof the fish that has been moved in a hot sun under a tarpaulin after five or si~ hours of sitting on a wharf and another three c-r four hours in a truck over the bumpy roads and the dusty roads. So, we should pa,re the roads. }.nd the ~~inister of Transportation and C~ications,who is conspicuous by his absence again today as he has been all week - I do not kno~· •·•here he is. A!! ""O:;. l"""''PIT: Re is here! ~~. CBE I~ : Has he? '1h, I 31'! sorry. I have done the n:inister a disservice and I hope he will be back.

But the ~~nister of Transportation and Cocmunic:ations would do well, Sir, in drawing up h~s progr~ for the year for sub~~ssion to the Cabinet, and in considerin~ the priorities t~~t should be attac:hec to th~, requests that come into h~, he vould do well to look at this question of paving the roads over which fish is trucked. I think that is a very important consideration and Sotl!ething o;.lhich should be a very maJor dete~inant in publ~c policy in this Province. We support the petition, Sir. I see the minister has not.• returnef to his seat. \·1e support the petition.

I would hope that the ~'inister of ?isheries will ha,.e his constituents' request g-rantee. If not I ~•could sug!teSt tt1 hi!!! that he consider res:!.gning frorn the Fouse and thus causinsz a by-election. P.e would be able teo run in the by-election a.nc seek re-election. But the aclvantal!"e 9Lt7i -- ~ ..

;•ay 28, 1976 !ape 3005 "" llOBID'TS : of causing a by-election, of course, on the record of the present Tory administration, is that they have a ~arvellous habit, Sir, of paving ~chines sprouting and road work sprouting even in cases in the IUnter. !Jc have even had cases, Sir.- so the ~inister coes not eveu have to resign in the Sllll!ll!er - ~te have aven had cases in ~Tove!!!ber ~.onth •·rit:h snow being 'Jrushed aside by the graders and the paving machine coming behind and laying the pavement, Sir.

So it :!.s a marvellous ~y to get pavell!ent and I 'N'01.tld colr.l!!ei1d it to the ~ister because I know he is cetermined to serve his constituents. So ! say if he is not able to persuade his colleague, the l"inister of Transportatioi1 to part with some :!lOney this year for this very reasonable and very oodest request, he should consicer co~e Fall resigning and it ~>auld fill in the odd l!!Oment bet1-1een the October 18th by-election :In St. John's '·Test and the January by-elec!:ion ·o7hich is gain~ to be held when the government get up enough courage to face the people of Bona vista ~Torth and '::~loits a:nc!

E'er-ryland. ~r !l:I)N. ~E"': Why resign? !he hon. gentleman could resign to run again. 3y all means he could. ! am just suggesting to him a way to get I know he •rants to serve his constituents, Sir, and in all charity and good· hU!l!or I am suggesting to him a •i!ay to consider it because, Sir, - MR. WOODROW: "!! .• ~!JB~S: !hac is an e~craordinary su~gesticn. Of course it 1.s extraordinary. But it: is an extraordinary problem, Sir, and extraordinary proble!!!S require ext-raordinary means, and as t!le minister is an extraordinary :nan, Sir, r knov he is ~nlling to consider exeraordinary l!!eans.

So ! suggest it t:o him for his consic!_eration. ''l'he easy ~~ay is to ~et ( the road paved this Summer ~ut if he does not ! think he should consider the extraordinary suggestion ! put to hit". · ·r support t:he petition, Sir. 907~-

V..ay 28, 1~76 T<!;le 3005 !!I-S NO'!!r.ES OF }'nT!ON; The "'c:m.. ~'in,ister of ""uni<:±pa:l Affairs anc! Eousio.g. I f'"1Ve notice, ~ 'r. Speai<e~. t ha t as~ leave to introdue~ 11. bill, "An Aet To Alllend 'l'lte Loca;l Gqvertl!'ent Aet, 1972." (l!ill No. 78) . The hon. Yinister of "!"inance. ~·r. Speaker, :t give notice that I will on to!'.!Orro~· asl-- leave of the :F!.ouse to i.I:troduee a bill, "lA~ Aet To lo.J!!end The Tobacco '!u Aet." (:!!ill !~o. 79) '!'he hon. ~'.i:ctister of HeP.l th. ~:" . ~ . C·. !..LI:.~~: "'r.

Spea.J.-.er, I give notj ee that I -w-ill ot: tomorrow ask ,leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Alnettd 'l'he Hospital Insurm1ee (J..~reement) Aet. '' (Bill ~~o. 77) 0 0 0 ·' 9080

May 28, 1976 :-m.. SPEAKER: mt. CP.OSBIE: Tape no. 3006 Page 1 - ::nor \.J'e are back t:o Answers to Questions,! presume. I just want to table an answer t:o a question, Mr. Speaker. I will not go into the details. It is Question ~o. 737 on the O~der Pape~ dated ~rch 25 asked by the hon. m~ber for LaPoile (Mr. ~e.ary) to do 'ntb. new· homes heated electrically and the like. There are some copies. As abrays I rush to 3et the information. ~. SPEA!ER: -. llnRF.l<TS: ORAL QUESTIONS : The hon. Leader of the ?pposition. ~r.

Speaker, I do not know if the ~nister is about to take off over there, or if he is waving or if the pqes are gone or something has happened. ·Anyway we are on Oral Questions, Sir. Mr. Speaker, perhaps in the Premier's absence f~ the Chamber - he was here earlier but he seems to have slipped out: sometmere - ~ question should be directed t:o t:b.e :~nister of Mines and Energy - MR. CA..IotNING: When is he going to slip in? MR. ROBERTS : My friend from Burin - Placentia West: (Mr. Canning) has asked '"hen the Pr=ier is going to slip in? Well, t!la.t is not parliamentary to answer that, Sir. ~r.

Speaker for the Min.:!.ster of ~nes and Energy, but it may be that his colleague, the Rouse Leader,but whichever of the two is better equipped :o ~war - r know that hon. geneleman - MR. CROSBIE: That is obvious. MR. ROBERTS: Well,I agree it is obvious, Sir, but I am too polite to say so at this hour of the morning. Mr. Speaker, the question grows out of the statements !J'hich h.ave been made overnight by Mr. John M.

Shaheen of ~rew York in which he h.a.s said again that he has access to sufficient money to enable him to revive the Come By Chance operation and to pay off the creditors and so forth, and that is all very welcome. :ly auest:ion, Sir, init:ially is, could the ~ister tall the aouse, Sir, whether the government have had any approaches f-rom :-!r. Shaheen or any of his associates or anvbody 90-8:1

May 28, 1976 Tape no. 3006 Page 2 - mw Mr. Roberts. speaking in his behalf and if so, Si.r, 'llhat those approaches have been and what response has been madeZ MR. SPE..!.KER: ~~.~IE: The hou. ~~ister of Mines and Energy. Mr. Speaker, the only approach that the government has had from !'..r. Shaheen or his associates - there is nothing new in it - yesterday Mr. Casey and Mr. Roy Furmark had a lllt!!eting with the Premiar and the !1inister of Industrial Development and the ~!.inister of Finance and myself and the 1-litlister of Justice and what they said in effect was what was said publicly.

There is nothing more detailed than that. They suggest that they have $600 million, or they have a lender who will make available $600 million to do certain things at the oil refinery when-and if the feasibility study is completed and the feasibility studv is positive - you know, presUIIIB.bly says it is · feasible and economic. And as to the source of the money,they are unable to say at this time what the source of the money would be or to provide any proof that such funds are available.

Anyway,they say they are seriously pursuing this and that if the lender did come up with the $600 million that they would have to make arrangements, of course, with the trustee in bankruptcy and made a proposal to the creditors generally. They would have to make proposals to ECGD and the Government of Newfoundland. None of these proposals have yet been made. 1!?.. ROBERTS: What about the Government of Canada under the wharf agreement? MR. CRO~BIE.; Well,they wou.ld also have to be included, because the wharf agreement is in defau.lt.

Payments have not been made, and the Government of Canada has repossessed the wharf. ~!R. KI~!AN: And any reversionary rights on that wharf belong to the - MR. CROSBIE: Yes. And the wharf,by t~e way,has -you kaow, any rights t~ th~ wharf . were with Provincial . Refining Co111J)any L:illlit-ed, which 1.l!l now in the hands of the trustee in ban~tcy. So the conversation was 9082

~lay 28, 1975 !ape 110. 3006 Page 3 - mw !1r. Crosbie. all completely generally,as ! say. The government has said that when they do know ..,hether or !lOt they can obtain this ii!Oney ,. and what their t~roposals are, then the gover=ent would expect them to make their detailed proposals to the creditors and ~o ECGD and to the government, and we would deal with it at that t~e and :he same as we would deal. with anyone else at that. t:iJne. So we have no more information o r.her than what has been said, generally, publicly.

And che sugaestion is that there would be money to refurbish the oil refinery and a possible extension for aromatics, and tb&t would luve a certain amount of money -:.hich would be available for the creditors, but the creditors would have to agree to stretch out their payments. :m.. ROBERTS: Oh, they would not be paid in full. MR. CROSBIE: :·!R. ROBERTS: MR. CROSBU:: iUght. Or ar. least not at once. That has not. been sugge!!lted. 3ut it is all, you see, quite general. So chat all we know i.s what has been said to the public by ~.r. Shaheen or other pareies. I think that is the position.

So there is ~oehing,new on it except we have been told that and presumably and may~e in a month or two months there might be ;nore. MR. SPEAI<ER: ~. ROBERTS: The han. Leader of the ~position on a suppl!!:llentary. A supplementary, yes. l·fy supplementary grows aut of the last remark of the minister. ae made have half anticipated the ~re of question that I am going to ask, but could he be a little :DOra specific if he could, you know, if he has the info-rmation. Is thtire any indicatil:m when the proposal will jel.!.?It seems to be in flux, and as ! heard Mr.

Shaheen ou the radio newscast this =tiing, he ~o~as saying it was dependent, this ~ouey, this $600 ~illion that has been sore of standing by available, is dependent upon a feasibility study. I thought 9083

l'..ay 28, 1976 Tape no. 3006 Page 4 - mw ~1~. Roberts. he sud from the Beehtal - I thought I beard the :Seebtel Corporation, Canada.in Betchel or - B1lyway the Bechtel Corporation, a very well- known f:l;m. But is there any ind:ieation when that report - what sort of time frame are we eal.tins of? Are we talking of a couple of IIIQilths or We are talldJJ.g of substantially lQnger? 9084 .

May 28, 1976 Ta-pe 3007 PK - 1 !!R. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Mines and Energy. ~- C'ROSl!I!: Yes, it shClild be made clear, you knov, that ·o~e de net •~ant anyone to get the ~ression in the Come By Chance area or otherwise chat there is any quick resolution of this situation. Now they are hoping chat Bechtel would be finished with their t"el'Citt by the end of JUI1e. They h~e to raport to the lll:"oposed lender, assuming there is a p:roposd lender.

So obviously rien if that ll88 aaet, the lender vould h~e to consider it, and there would have to be a lot of detailed wo:rlt, and there will cer'tainly be nothug concrete untll the fall at least. So chat appears to be the time frame. All I say, Mr. Speaker, one has to ~at this with a measure of sc:epd.ciftl because we have· no proof that any of these things vi.ll. be done. But tb.ey are working on it, md once they have their feasibility study. p~-ma:rily they wlll nave to get in touch with the trustee in bank:rtrptcy and deal with the other creditors, in particular the 111.ajor ones. So that is the position.

And wen they have got l!Cre infon~ation I presume they vlll be baclt in touch MR. J. NOUB ..=_ MR. SPEAKER: Bay South. MR. NOLAN: A suppte.eutary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. The b.on. member for Concepcion I ~Jonder if I could phrase 1IIY question in tllo parts for the Miniscer of ~nas and Energy.

One, a question that obviously rises in. a sale such u this when you a:re ta.lk.:ing about co- By Chmce 1s, wby vould anyone 17.Ult to a1Jply $500 mllliou or $600 l!li.llion for a plant ~t if it is dCWD long enough obviously '~ill be available at a much better sale without having to be respousible eo ebe creditors and so on7 And the seeoud part of 1IIY question, Mr. Speake:r, fo:r l:.he same ~ister is, apparently Mr. Shaheen has decided to go public in his negotiations on this eo sallie extent since he nas recently been on C!C-TV and so on, ehey have beeu in New York, and he has made some statements again today.

Now wat I would like tokknow is since 9085

May 28, 1976 Tape 3007 PK- 2 Mr. Nolan: this ia all very vague, does the miui.ster have any la1Ciwledge of any 1110re eoucrete agreemeut or concrete arraugement or offer, if you like, from anyoue else that ve have nat heard haa ou this matter other thu Mr. Shaheen. What we are looldng for i.s some- thing definite. MR. SPEAXE1t: The hou. MinUter 6£ !tines and EDergy. 111.. CROSliiE: Mr. Speaker, other thu Mr. Shaheen, you mov, give any opinion ou it at the WC~~eDt, We do DOt have the iDformatiou.

There have been otlaer ll'!IJI'raachea to the trustee aud to the gove'nllllellt, 1111d thue are groups who waut to get all of the illfomation that ia «Vailable ou the refinery, IIDd study the whole lll&tter. Now there are several that may be pro~acta who are doing that. But there has uot been ClYODe else that baa lUiie IIDY offen,u far u I kDow, ceruiDJ.y not to the govenmADt Uld not to the tru.tee or E.C.GaD. llll7 · c:cmc:rete offers vhataoeYar.

There have beeu several groupa who are looldn$t into it, and uaabliDg :LnfoDI&tiou or studying the «Vail.&ble izlfozmatiou ad ll01le of whom have said anythiug publicly becaWie, of c:oune, that ia nat the way)if you h«Ve a aertou iDtent,that you do things~ :rou do not disc:u .. it all iD public before you la1ow what you are doing. So there are other groups iuteruted, but their iDterest has DOt resulted ill any concrete propoaala yet. And whether they "Vill or DOt we do DCit mow.

With reSl)ec:t to the first part of your quest:Lon, we ukaci that qDUtiOD OU'l'lelvea.yeaterciay, ud that i.s just the nak you ~ - · -- to take, we ·~ told. You kDow, your queat:Lou i.s, well if a011ebody cu, you la1ow, 11011ebody might be able to buy the refi.Dery froa the tnstee or the 1110rtgagea for 1mch leaa than $600 milliou,why would they lou $600 lllilllaa? I do DOt kDDV why they would.. Perhapa-they are uot ill the buaiD.eaa of operating oil refineries, you know. MR. SMALL 'WOOl): A supplamentary queatiou, Mr. Speaker. . 9086

May 28, 1976 rape 3007 PK - 3 MR. SPUKER.: A supplementary, the hon. member for 'r!Jillingate, followed by the bou. member for LaPoile. MR. SMALLWOOD: Did I understand the minister to say that Mr. Casey was aae of those involved? Is he not the former head of the securities, the SEC of the United States? MR. CROSBIE: Yes. The same Mr. Casey? MR. e&e.S'BIE: Mr. Casey ~I believe, !o!r. Speaker, vas at one time head of the SEC, and he i..s a lawyer, I think, in llashingtou or frC'III WuhiDgtou. MR. SMALI.WOOD: Yes. Mil.. SPEAXER: A su1)p lementary. MR. SMALLWOD: Mr.

Speaker, would the !lliuistar in cocnection rlth the reply he juat gave to the hen. member for Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan), aa to the amount of mouey involved, would b.a not agree that perh.atls as 111Ueh as a couple of hundred millions or !!lOre of. t..'lat would be not to purchase the existing refinery, but for exunsion, petrochemical and so on?

So it 1~ not a casa,even if it CC'IIIes to $600 m:U.l.ion,which it may not- but his claim is that he has in sight between $400 million and $600 million, up to $600 million- but even ii it wen up to $600 llillion, a very large 11art of that surely vould be. for tha prupoea of paying the coet of a big ~tension to the refinery that does not exist at all now. MR. Sl'EAICER: The hou. Minister qf Mines md Energy. MR. CROSliiE: Mr. Speaker, thac: of course i:s not a <fUeStion,u tha hou. gentleman appears · to be well briefed, and perhlll'.s he has been in cOIIIIIItmie.atiou with Mr. Shaheen or one of his people.

But since he 1DI!t1t1oua the subject:, $600 million is the amount mentioned and of that - I am just going on what we were told- $250 million vould be to refurbish o~ reconStitute or correct any deficiencies in the refinery, md about $200 milllon,we 9087

!·:ay 2!1, 1976 Tape 300!'t Ill-1 '"'·. Cl!CSB~: are told, to build a petrochemical extension that would produce aromatics. ~~ - ~TOLAN: t'l!.. CP.OSBIE; That would leave - ! thought it was $40 million. Between $40 million anc:l $60 million for the - ~iell no one knows exactly. This is only general talk. This is what we are told. Say $50 million to refurbish and reconstitute the refinery and $ZOO million for an extension to produce a~tics. !hat would leave $350 million,if the $600 million was raised to satisfy the creditors.

Well as hon. gentleman know, the amount owed by these c~anies is far in ezcess of $350 million. So that is all we have been told, just general or generalities like that. o·le have no proof that any of it can be carri.ed out, and there cannot be, of course, until after a feasibility is done. So it is just at this very general stage and everyone can make their own mind up u to haw real they think it may be. I recognize the hon. member for LaPoile and there will probably be an opportunity later to get back. ~..r.

Speaker, could the ~!inister of Transportation and CommlmicaUon~fresh back from Ottawa, tell us if there is anything new on the government's proposal for a ninety-ten cost sharing agreement with the Govel'mlll!nt of Canada to upgrade and to resurface or reconstruct 2nd repair the dama~e to the Trans-canada Highway? Also, could the minister tell us if there is anything new on a !'l'.EE agreel!ll!nt with regards to the Great Northern Peninsula, pavU!g the Great !l'orthern Peninsula and reconstruction? MR. SPEAKER: .J!R. !-'OP.GAN: The hon. "1-finister of Transportation and COIIIIIllmications. !'!r.

Speaker, the federal !'.inistry of Transport has had officials in the Province approx:flllately two weeks ago. The senior officials from the Surface Division of the !'OT were in Newfoundland to travel the Trans-canada Rigm:.-ay and inspect the conditions of the !rans-canada Highway,and also to take a look at the volume of traffic on our highway. 9088

~~y 28, 1976 Tape 3008 ~'R. YOl'.Ctl!f: Since returning to Ottava ~\ey are nov analyzing the information gathered ~hile here in the Province and they are returning again in approximately less than a veek, returning to IE-2 the Province to l!'eet nth my offic.:!..als and myself .to have further discussions on this matter.

That is the status of that ?art of the question asked by the han. gentleman. with reference to the D?~ roads agreeMent this year in the Province 1 we have been given authorit-y, this governu:ent 2nd my depar~ent, co call tenders for a number of projects which Will obviously be include~ in this year's ~"'EE a~eement. These tenders w~re eallee and have now closed and bids received. But ve are unable to award the contracts on these projects until the actual agreement is sizned.

I m hoping,aad so is my colleague, the ~·inister of !atergoverrur.ental Affai-rs, that the actual agreel:!ent ~-11 be signed in a ~Atter of days go as we can award these contracts. ~ere is no delay, as I indicated a few days ago, on the part of this govern~nt. _l"R • ~IF ~..P.Y : The Great Northern Peninsula? YR. ~'!!.CAN: Yes. 1·re have not been given the per.nission nor the authortty to call any tenders on the 8orthern Peninsula. We have been given permission to call tenders on the LaScie ?.cad, on four projeets in the !!onavista North Loop !'.cad, the !!urgeo "!'cad and che Bay D'!spoir ~cad.

But we have not been given authority or permission to call any tenders on the ~rorthern Peninsula. ~•e have not any indication or any reason given to us from Ottawa as to why. ~P!~ The han. member for Burin-Placentia West followed by the hen. member for Lewisporte. ~'r. Speaker, I have a question for the han. Minister of Finance. The question is, has his department to date given consideration to the prayer of the petition of c::e :,rorld 'ilar II veterans requesting that consideration be given to the ~ar service in regard to the period of service aspect as to their qualifying for pensions? 9 . ~89-

Yay 28, 1976 Tape 3008 IB- 3 ~l'EAXEJ!.: The han. ~!inister of Finance. ~~- I as~ the hen. gentle~ is referring to the federal emp~oyees. Well, that question was answered at s0111e length by l!le some weeks ago, Sir, and I ~ sure the answer is 1:1 Hansard. There was a petition presented by the han. member for St. John's East (Mr. ¥..arshal1) . I explained goverti!Dent 's position on it at that time. Subsequently we had a five minute go each in the Late Show, and I think that the government's position is pretty well outlined in that particular ecition. '!'he situation has not changed since that time.

A supplementary. Is the minister saying that they have not given further consideration to the prayer of the petition of government help? 1"?. "OOODY: What I said, Sir, was that governmant's position was explained about twa weeks aro or three weeks ago in that particular question-answer perioc and in the subsequent debate on it ~ recorded in Hansard.

We stated at that t:1me that we were quite prepared and indeed had passed legislation to look after those employees who are e!!!ployed by the Government of Newfoundland., but that we were not prepared to get involved with the employees of other jurisdictions, "~<-.bether it be the federal government or any other govero=ent. We were also prepared and were quite anxious and willmg to be of any assistance that we could in helping these federal employees to prepare any case that they might have or any assistance that they might need with federal Treasury Board :ill this regard. ·.•

.. !!ay 28. 1976 Tape no. 3003 Page 1 - = 11R. SPEA..I'{ER: I had indicated ~hat I would recognize the hen. member for Lew~porte after. ~. \.n:ITE: ~Ir. Speaker, I have a supplemE!!ltary t Jr t!le Minister of Mines and Energy in connection with the question he has already answered •Jit~ regard to ehe Come By Chance oil refinery. Mr. Shaheen told one reporter yesterday frOQ one of the ~eeia ~t he is looking at a ~e~y day proposition. This is going t:o be heard by the employees m Coll'.e By Chance and so on.

Assuming everything goes smooth as ?eople are anticipating, can this thing be put together the ninety days. ~. SPEAKER: !!R. CROSBIE: The hen. )tinister of :1ines and Energy. Mr. Speaker, you ~w, ~e can only give opinions.

It is very difficult: to see he"' in a C01111llicated affair like this that,even if there is a lender and he does approve going ahead how it all could be accomplished in ninety days. ~ou know, even i£ everything ~ent smoothly 1 I w~uld not expect- and it 'MaS acco~lished, and we are not giving any opinion as t:o whether it could be accomplished or not - it certainly ~ould not be in our view until the Fall, and that is also what the people who '""e spoke to yesterday said.

You :e1ow, it would not be until October and, you knew, there ·~uld have to furious work t:o do that:. !ou got all kinds of renters you would have to se~,and all kinds of technical difficulties, etc., you know. Is any hon. gentleman now rising to a supplementary to the previous question? !he ·hon. member for LaPoile followed by the hon. member for Bellevue. MR. ~~Y: Mr.

Speaker, ! ~an~ to put a question to che Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. !he 'Mater system in the community of Rose Blanche seems ~o be in a state of limbo at the present time, Could the !llinister tell us ~hen he expects co complete :u.s negotiations a:ad get co•atrac:tion of the water svstem baclt an the rails a~.odn? t-!R. Sl'EA .. '<EX: }!R. PECKFORD : 1'".1e ~on. Y.inister of :1unicipal Affairs and 3:ousing. Back during t:he last federal election the member for the district, 'Nho is now the ~nister of Trade and Commerce in .

Ottawa, promised the people of aose Blanche a ~ater system,as I understand it.

May 28, 1976 Tape no. 3009 Page 2 - mw Mr. Peckford. As a result of ;ha~ p_E~se _E.egotiations were entered into between the community, the Deparrment of Municipal Affairs, provincially, and then the Deparement of DREE which the non. member ~ was responsible for. As a result of those negotiations, some very long and complicated and protracted negotiations, it was finally agreed by DREE, through Treasury Board in Ottawa, that they would help finance a water system in Rose Blanche. to the tune of fifty per cent of a max!mum of around $1.2 million. I think it is $625,000- $625,000 far ea~h gavermnent.

The Govermnent of Newfoundland at the time, through the Department of Municipal Affairs, were somewhat reluctant to even get involved in that agreement, because it was setting a precedent, because there are many places in the Province that want water and sewer systems and yet here was the federal governMent getting involved in 1n£rastruction in the Province but only in the M.P.'s district. And we had indications after his c:ommiement to the people of Rose Blanche that we understood that it was going to be ninety-ten or seventy-five-twenty-five, a better agrel!!!lllent than fifty-fifty.

In any case,we did enter into it for the sake oi trying to get acme kind of a water system in Rose Blanche. After tenders were called on the project and contracts came in it was found that the system was more expensive than had been previously envisaged. Therefore, that the total capital cost of the·~roject would be far in excess of the $1.2 m:Ulion which had been allocated on a fifty-fifty basis, ProVince and Federal Govermnent. MR. NEARY: About how much? MR.. PECKFORD: Oh, quite a bit. It could go to $2 million to $3 million. As a result of that and in consultation with the - HR.

COllD~ S: How many households are there in Rose Blanche? MR.. PECICFORD: How many households? Two hundred and fifty households. MR. NEARY: Yes. I guess it is over 250 to 300. !:IR. PECXFO~: Two hundred and sixty-two, I think, I remember is the figure. 9Di2

l:'..ay 28, 1976 Tape ::1.0. 3009 Page 3 - mw :-IR. PECKFORD: In any case in consultation with che hon. ~linister of Intergover~ental Affairs and myself,we ~ote the han. ~li~ster of DREE indicating to him tha~ t~ere ~~ go~g to be additional costs, that you can award the contracts in isolation of the fact that the whole capital costs is going to be lllCre chan the agreement of fifty-fifty, totalling $1.2 million, and that would the federal government please indicate to us whether they were go~~g to participate on the additional funding in the same way as they did on the $1.2 ~lion.

We are waiting on an answer from DREE in that regard, and from the member for the district in that regard, because he has received.•a copy of r:.he letter sent by the hon. ~ti:U.ster responsible for Int<!rgovermnental A.ffai!:s to "1r. Lessard point:!.:J.g out that if you are willing, your ccmmiozent is there to finance the system; you are oct financing it any more oow than the Province is anyway, which sort of destroys your commicment in :he first instance~ if you are willing to go fifty-fifty on $1.2 million, you ~hould be willing to go fifty-fifty on -lvhatever the cost of the ;Jroject is.

The federal government still has a little bit !!!Ore money than this Province does. ~m..::."EARY: A suppleme:ntarv.question, ;.Jr. Speaker. :-!R. SPEAKER: A supplementary. HR. ~TEARY: Just for the sake of clarification,! presume what the minister is say~g is that the Province is prepared to continue the construction to put ~ more !I!Ouey into it on a fifty-fifty basis. The hang-up at the !I!Oment is DREE. HR. PSCKFORD: !hat is exactly, precisely correct, :U:. Speaker, MR. SPEAKER: The hou. member for Bellevue, followed by the hou. cember for Baie Ver~e - wnite Bay. ~!R. CAI.LA.'i: Mr.

Speaker, 'JlY question is also for t:he :-!inisc:er of 1 Municipal Affairs and Housing. ! ;."'Onder could the lllinister briefly Ulllain why it is, you ~ow, in view of ehe statement made this :norning about hous~g developments and so on ;hroughout the ?rovince, why is it that a building lot costs bet:~een say $5,~00 and $9,000 as the ones in Arnold's Cove cost:s? ;.fu.at :::a.k.es the cremendous cost? 90·91

~~.ay 28' 1 '?76 Tape 3010 I:S-1 !ffi.. PECKPORD: Briefly, !":r. Speaker, the answer is this; that the cost of servicing land in Newfoundland is extremely high; that the corporations are non-profit, so you are just trying to recover the costs of installing the services. When you put in a main line or trunk line and so on and your curb and gutter and your paving that is what it comes out to per lot. It is just a simple matter of economics. Five to nine? That is right. If there are fifty lots and the total cost was $500,000 or whatever, divide it out and you have got - How 'I!!Uc:h are they in St.

John's? !T .• PEC!O'O!!.D: In St. John's in Newtown now they are between about $8,900 to $11,200 in Newtown. ~~t about commercial zones? In East !:!eadows:, the-average cost in the East ~eadows development,whic:h is a private development, is still some~"hat higher per lot than are the -ones developed by public money. They are still somewhat higher on the average,although the Newto~~ now is getting close to being alt!!ost the same as '1-il.at it is in a private de vel Op1!18tl t . But the whole problem - and I think it is recognized by most people - the problem is just in servicinr.

Then again - "Jhat about the land aequ:isition costs? Do they not matter very much at al.l? MR. ~CXFOP.D: Land acquisition, very small, extremely small. }~ost of the places where there are land assemblies now except Springdale as an exception and a couple of others, is land that was brought five, six or seven years ago or soma of it was Crown land and was banked. So the only way to get down land costs for housing is to reduce the ~ize of lots thereby getting more lots, number one. Number ~. reducing the sophistication of your servicing and not paving your streets and not getting into so much stona

Yay 28, 1976 Tape 3010 !B-2 drainage and this ~:i::ld of thing. The an~r is just a !:latter of s~eP.r economics and the cost of servicing is just so high. ~~. r..)~L..~: A supplementary, ~·r. Speaker. Yr. Speaker, I 11onder is there any truth to the itec thar: was on the ne~:os a ~-rh:Ue ago that consulting fees on projects such as that one cost sixty-five dollars an hour? l..'ould that drive up the cose.,I wonde'l:'? ~- · PECKm!ID: !vell the engineering costs, ~r. Speakzr, are involved in a lot of it.

Now we do a lot of these land asse~blies ourselves, you see, a lot of development;and the consulting enginee'l:'ing part of it is not that great. Consulting engineering is really greater on l'ater and sewer systems per se rather t!:lan on land assemblies,oecause a lot of the planning and design work is done by the corporation. So tl::.at the engineering part of any land assembly would not appreciably increase the cost of the lot, not to any great degree. It would have some cear'ing on it but not to any great degree. So that is not a real ~ajor factor. It is a factor but not a major one. I was talking . to, 1-'r.

Spaa.ker, people outside ~·Clntreal just some time ago. Apparently in some of the suburbs of ~ontreal they are still selling lots for $3 ,non and $4,000. The servicing must be a lot easier and their volur .e lllUSt dictate the lo~~er - AN HON. ~!BE.!': $1,800' or 20. ~~ Yes 1that is •.ohat I say. It is volur.te and your land. E:ven in. Nova Scotia. ~~r. Speaker, now ·mere, you k:nov, one t:il:e people used to say, ''Nova Seot:ia is made of sand wa:6d from the banks of ~ewfoundland", so it was easy to service a lot of those a-rea.s.

Even in easily serviced areas of ~Tova Scotia you are up to $7,000 and $8,1JOO per lot. 9095

May 28, 1976 ~&lie 3011 PX- 1 MR. Sl'EAXER: The bon. -ber for Baie Verte-White Bay. MR. T. RrDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I would like to uk a question of the Minister of Fisheries. The llliDister u aware, I. am_sure, !:hat there are what we call fiahiq zones established arcnmd the number of fishing . c:om=mitiea in this ProviDce for the use of fishermen who live in those particular c~ities. Could the miDist:er tell me what criteria ia used in establishing these zones~and whether the fishermen of those particular areas are consulted with regards to the boundaries of those fishing zones? MR. SPEAKEit: The bon.

Minister of Fisheries. MR. ll. CART!lt: Mr. Speaker, I a not sure if I got the questiou correctly, fiabiAg zones or fiabing ro011111 or? . MR. RIDEOUT: If the miniaeer will permit, I .m think1ng,for exa~ple, I have received representatiou frCIII Woodstock where there u a fishiq zone for 'lloodatock and Pacquet. Woodstock would like to have their ovu fishing zone. I am sort of green on it so that is why 1 a aald.D& for infcmD&tion. MR. SPUUR: !he bon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. 'll. CAlt'r!R: we have no designated fisb:i.Dg zones, there are fishing bertha, I a aware of !:hat, md these are prime -areas. MR.

DOOnY: They are IUY be for liceDciAg purposes. MR. ~. CAR'l'ER.: It Kight be for lic:l!llc:ing purpo .. s,wh&ch would be a Federal regula~ion. Certainly I will look into it ed find. out what the crieteria used by the Federal Govermiii!Dt would be in the establlstu.nt of such zones. MR. SPEAKER.: The bon. member for Lewisporte. MR., F. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, I have s question for the Minister of "rrlmsportation md Calmaunicationa.

Some weeks ago the Minister of Mines IIDd Eaery stated in the Legislature that the policy of the goverament was to ery and get chartered flights,international chartered flights to originate and arrive back· 1li St. John' a. I wonder if the llliDiater c:auld tell as what action he baa taken on this particular matter? 9096

May 28, 1976 Tape 3011 PK.- 2 MR. SPEAKER: !he hen. Minister of Transportation and Communications. RmT. J. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I have 11aken 110 action whatsoever. MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bellevue followed by the hou. member for LaPoile. MR. W. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, =1 question is for the Minister of forestry axtd Agrieulture. In view of the fa.et :hat yuu can go into practically any store in Nevfoundland and see P. E.

I. potatoes -and uaually,of course,an uneMPloyed person sitt~ dowa on that ba&, but that is another matter- In view of the fact that practically every store in ~ewfoundland sells P.E.I. potatoes say for $4.00 a bag,and locally grown potatoes you have to pay $5.00 a ~ag, and, you lcnow, a year ar c-"o ago hundreds of barrels of ?otatoes were dumped dowa around Glovertcwn in Centr&l. N-foundland, 'Jhy is that? Why is that net cured? Why are not our local potatoes bought first? MR.. Sl'UIQ'll : The hon. Ministe-r of P'orest:ry and Agrlcultue. mDl. J. ROUSSEAU: That is a beautiful question.

And if I could urge you and urge the rest of the Province to buy locally, if they would listen to me, you know, I certainly '-'Ould ask them to do it. You can only· ask - XR. CALI.AN : I£ they did not have the price , if they were not than they would have to bay the ~ocal. MR.. ROUSSEAU: l'hey wculd have to. !he only problem is, a:11d. :te have that problem, in other areas · too, there is no way the Provincial Gavermaeut has jurisdiction with •egard to In~:er;~rovincia.l :rade 0 W'e c:mmot cat off t:!le SUlltlJ of potaGoes from any other province in Canada into Newfoundland nor vice versa • •• AN RON.

MEMB'El!.: Neither can eh.e Federal Government. MR.. ROUSSEAU: Pardon? AN RON. M!MBER: Neither can t±le.. Fet!eral G;overnment. MR. ROUSS£AU: Neither can the Federal Government. W'e have no jurisdiction aver the trade and ccmmeree across P~vtnc:ial boundaries, and it is unfortunate because sometimes the power would be put to better use especially here in Newfoundland, on the Island part, and in Labrador we have a problem being at the tail end of the transportation 9.097

May 28, 1976 tape 3011 PK- 3 Mr. RDwleeau: triiZlStJOt"tatiou IIYStem. So the coat of the materials that are necessary to grow potaooes, and other factors that we would have here in th:ls Province that other provinces do not have, of course, would acid to our cost. But certainly 1f there was any way that one CC!Ulci appeal to the people of the Province to buy locally, I would be the first one to do it. But it ia a problem that we an g*ing to have to gr~q~ple with.

I have already talked to Hr • .aeJ.an md written to hill in respect to other aspects of trying to have our boundaries closed to certain prociuct:s to encourage ;irowth here, but it 1s a diffic:ult thing. And, 'like I say, with the Provincial GovertDIIdt hu no jurisdictiou over it, It is llllfortunate. I do not know what the mswe.r ia, but we should be able to produce potatoes here in a~~r tJVfi Province ch~er than Prince Eclward IaJ..Dd does. MI.. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, a ~~UJ~PlaallUry. MR. Sl'EAXER: The thirty minute _ period is up.

Before calling Orders of the Day I wish to em- to the attention of hOD. llellbers the peseuce in the gallery of fifty­ three students from Littie Rearu Ease, Trinity Bay. They are &eCOIIIpmied by five of their teachers, Miss Phyllis We.ir, Miss Barbara Smith, Mn. Dredge, Mrs. Stringer md Mrs. Smith. I lalow all honourable -bera join me in welcomiDg these fifty-three stt&deuts from Little Hearts Eap. SOH! HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! 9098

~ay 28, 1976 Tape 3012 D-1 OP!lEP.S OF ':.'!!E DAY: On motion of the hoo. Premier, a bill, "An Act ~o Style The Depert::l!eot: Of ?'t'oviocial Affairs And Environment />..s The nepartment Of Consumer Affairs And Envirorur.ent," read a first ti::le, ordered read a second time on tol!!Or":"ow. (Sill ~To. 65) On motion of the hon. ~..inister of Finance, a bill, "An Act To Amend ~e Liquor Control Act, 1973," 't'ead a first ti:te, ordered ~ad a second t~e on tomorrow. (Bi!l ~o. 7J) en motion of the hen. ~'inister of ~ines and Energy, a bill, ").n Act Further To .~end The Agreement '.'.atified, Confit'l!!ed And Adopted By And Set Forth !n The

Schedule To The ~=odore ~ining Company Limited(Agreement) Act, 1968, And To ~ake Certain ~tatutory ?revisions Relating To ~at Agre~ent," read a first time, orc'ered read a second time on tol!!orrow. (Bill ~o. 7!.) On =totion of the hen. ~!inister of ~'ii!es and E:1ergy, a bill, "An .\ct To Az!!end '!'he Stephenville Linerboard ~1:!.1 (_~_gree~ent) Act, 1972," read a first t:il!!e, ordered read a second time on tomor't'ow. (Bill No. 69) On motion of the hoa. \l'inister of Education, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Local School !a.-,; Act," read a first tir.e, orc!ered read a secane! t~e on tomorrow. (:!ill :.!o. 71) On motion of the hon.

Yinister of ~<an-pouer and Industrial "elations, a bill, "An Act Pespecting Labour "elations In The. P't'ovince," read a :irst time, ordered read a second tilr.e on toll!orro,.r. (Bill No. 75) • ~~ ~!otion 20. It is !l!Oved and seconded that t.'1.e bon. minister shall leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Control The Relationship Between Employers And Employees qithin The Province And To P't'ovide t:aiform Millimum Standards l)f t;onditions Of elii'Ployme:at." Is it the pleasure of the Rouse that the hon. minister shall have leave to introduce said bill? Those in favour ''.\ye'', contrary '':.iay".

Carried. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. 909.9.

l!ay 28' 19 76 ':are 3012 D-2 'T .. P.OB~S: I wonder if the F..ouse leader could tell us 1<1hen these ttro bills, No. 75 and No. 76 will be available for distribution because they are very major pieces of legislation and I think questions are certainly in order . ~~. HELLS: printed!' ~"~> .• W!ll.S: }'1' • IJB!J>~ S : next ~oeek. As soan as they are pr:illted, I will see to it . Is there any indicatim -."ill they be lang in being On Tuesday or l<ednesday. So we may have them on Tuesday or Hec!nesday of They are at the printers,are they?

On motion of the bon. ~~ister of ~'.anpower and Induserial :?.elaeions, a bill, "An Ace To Cont-rol '!be P..elat:ionship Between Elllploye-rs And Employees r!ithin '!'he P-rovince And To Provide Unifo-rm }<.:illinium Standards Of Conditions Of Employment," read a first ti.I!le, ordered read a second tillle an tomorrow . (Bill No. 76) On motion of the hon. ?-'..iniseer of Forestry and Agriculture, a bill, "~JJ. ~-ct To Amend The Forest Fires Act, " read a fi-rst time, ordered read a second t~ an tomorrow. (Bill No. 68) On motion of the hon. ~~nister of Provincial Affairs and E:l.v~rotll'!l!nt, a bill, "An Act To Amend ~e Haste ~·aterial (ili,.posal) Act, " read a first eime, ordered read a second tilDe an eomorrow. ('!ill No. 70).

Order 1, the Address in Reply: the debate on the amendl!!ent to the Address in Reply was adjourned by the han. member for St . John's East (Y..r. !":arshall). Thank you, ~r. Speaker. It is hard for one to address ones self to the Address in Reply when it has been delivered so long ago. Of course,thi~ debaee opens many areas that a member can bring before the House. It is pretty well an unl:illlited area. Before getting into the burden of T!!'J re1113.rks,which ! hope will not be a burden, the ma:ill burden of my re1113.rks.

I shuuld like to draw to the attention of the House remarks "'ade by the hen. ~'inister of Justice yesterday in his speech in this debate ,:~ :1.th respect to the mode of present:l .ng the · 91UO:

~!ay 28, 1976 Tape 3012 B-3 ~~- ~'APSR.4LL: Address in Feply. The ~ouse ~•ill recall that the hon. ~!inister of Justice '!!ade ~.;hat I thought r•as a very good point ••ith respect to the for'l!!3.t of the Addresses in "eply !:o uhic:h this legislature has been accusto~ed over the years ~d the fact that perhaps 7e oug~t to ~~ve ~~e types of Address in ?eply that are - ~'r. Speaker, to a point of order. Could we have a little ~re quiet inside and outside the chamber? ~. . SPE..<\KE~: :n:!nimum. !7. VAP.SR..<\I.L: Han. !!!embers are requested to keep noise to the Thank you. ~~r.

Speaker. ~~ .• SPU...li:E?..: If there are people outside the chamber 'Nho are making noise, chen one of the officers of the House is to please info~. them to be quiet. As I lo7as saying, '~r. Speaker, the Yinister of Justice as far as I C!lll concerned rnade a very valid point.

I think I would even stretch it a little bit further to suggest - this is not original, this has co~ up in the House before - chat the •Mhole procedure ·nth respect to deliverance of the Addresses in l'.eply should be reconsidered. ~o ~e it has always seemed to ~e very artificial, to put what has become and •·•hat must necessarily ';,e a political document in the hands of the Queen's representative and have the Queen's representative read it. ~iow I am not: saying that we should abolish the Lieutenant-r~vernor or the position that th4 Lieutenant-covernor has ill opening t!::e ~ouse. '!'hat obviously should continue.

But I think that the re~arks that are ~ce shoulc be more in ehe nature of constitutional matters and that the Leader of the govern~nt should then get ~pas the? do, I think, in Ouebec · ­ here again I am not advocating we follow Quebec:~ but it is a fairly llOOd procedtU:~ - we would retain the Lieutenant-<:overr..or for constitutionally opening the House and ~ing a few - ~ ~. • ~"ARSR.All : You would not suggest we read it in French? ~o, I would not suggest we read it in French. : '

}'ay 28,1976 Tape 3012 ~'P • }'!.ARS1L6J.L : But we have the Lieutenant-Governor make a few statement that are not related t~ the policies of the government,as it were,and have the Leader of the government get up and read out what the policies of the government are,and the Leader of the Opposition reply.

It would seem that that would make the procedure a bit more relevantl because 1 I would gainsay, although I do not know 1 that successive Lieutenant-Governors having to come into the House and read documents that have in effect been prepared for them and contain in many eases political positions, is not ~omething that they would particularly prefer. So I think that not only would I concur then with what the }~ter of Justice said yesterday w~th respect to improvement of the mode of addressing the Address in Reply,but I think the manner of presentation of it should be perhaps looked at. }~..

SY.ALL\·!C'Ol': Of course Her ~.aj esty the Queen does it • ..l~~: I realize Her ~·ajesty, the Queen, does it, Yr. Speaker, and ! do not know what type of document she reads. It is along the same lines. But first of all I would say that I do not think we should be blinded to the possibility of ~~ange although we should not mak-i! change just for change sake. Secondly, I doubt really in many of the Throne Speec:he~ that I have heard, whether it is really meant to put a type of what has become a political doeument,to a large extent largely a political document, in the hands of the ~ueen's representative.

I think this is a political document on policies and the best person to deliver it full force would be the leader of the govern~nt and to reply, the Opposition. Then we get things centered, as it were. 910.2

~lay 28, 1976 !;'ape no. 3013 Page 1 - lll'li }!r. Y,arshall. ~ow with respect to this Throne Speech, ~!r . Speaker, I did not find this Throne Speech, I ~ust say, any different ehan many of· the others ~~t have come before us. I found that it is somewhat heavy and laborious,and somewhat tedious :!.D. t!le presentation of the various positions that were ~ut forth. ~d this is not unusual. It is not completely isolated to t~s partic~lar Throne Speech, but with all of them.

I think t!lat t~s r~rone Speech, as well as many of the others~follow along, for :!..nstanc~. a recitation of depar~ents, and what each department is ~oing to do. I :~ there is somewhat of a danger in doing this, because you cannot compartmentalize human problEl!IIS,as it were, and the needs and problems of the people. And there are matters that continually, I thblk, because of the way in which these Throne Speeches have been brought before this Eouse in centring theo on de?art:ents _ this department is going to do a cert:aill proj ec::; and another is doing to do another,that other matters are perhaps left out.

Secause there are certain tnings that I think ~erit consideration by this House that ought to be done and I feel t!lat some of them have ascalJed notice. And oa.e or ~o of them I am nov going to mention. I think oa.e of the major needs in this Province today, apart: from the - as I always qualified rJ1Y r!!l!larks by talking about the fiscal situation that we r4ve talked about before, that is the overriding and the overbeari:lg problem ~oilich we have, and I will not go into it again by saying that : fed that it is :1ot perceived by ~he people, and even indeed by ~his Eouse.

But ! chink one major reform that is necessary, ~hich would not cost ~he government any money and should be looked at very carefully is the provision in this P~ov-tnce of compulsory pension plans in private industry and to ~a thase pension plans, if :hey possibly can, co be portable 9·1;0 l·

Hay 28, 1976 Tape no. 3013 Page 2 - mw Mr. !-!ershall . that is to be able to be taken by the employee from job to job. Now a situation has arisen in this Province, and we have seen it from bitter experience. There are =Y people nowadays who are retiring, and who have retired in the past decade,where it ~s not fashionable t~ provide for pensions in the past in private industry. No pension provisions were provided. There was no funding of their pension rights, and they had na ~vested rights with respect to their pensions.

And some very cruel and very harsh results have resulted from this, where people have laboured for year~ in certain firms- and I speak particularly in St. John's, but I know it is not confined to St.

John's; it is all around the Province everywhere - they have worked in firms throughout Newfoundla.pd for years for a very small salary, they come to the age of pensionable service, and if their neighbour happens to be in the civil service that is fine, when he gets to sixty-five he gets a reasonable pension; if their neighbour happens to be in certain other places where they do have funded pensions, that is fine as well; but as I say in many cases in this Province there was no actual provision for pensions over a period of years.

I should not rt.h my remarks on this end to be construed as being a criticism of the employers. It is very easy for people to ' take off on the employers from time to time. lt would particularly, I would think, be of great delight to the member for LaPoile a1r. Neary) to see such an attack being -taken.

But the fact of the matter is over the period of years, it is only recently that people have become pensioned and security conscious as it were, and there was no provision made, and the people who are left in business when the older employees retired had to look after the ones who are still there at the time or their businesses would have -foundered. So they had absolutely no recourse but to do what they did, either left their people out without any pe=sion 910~ - -·

~y 28, 1976 Tape ao. 301.3 Page 3 - mw :-'.r. ~.arshall. at all or at a bare pittance and certainly it would always be one that would be a pension based merely on the gratitious conduct of :he employer. There ·~uld be no obligation wi~ respect to it. Now ! do not think, ~!r. Speaket:, that that tylle of situation should be allowed to continue in this ?-:-evince. !t has ;eeu a ~tter of concern to ~e for quite a ?eriod of time, and ! have done a bit of research and a bit of •NOrk on it. ! feel that we are right now, as I know, in very difficult times financially •rlth i:lflation and what have you.

And the government cannot ukes llltiVes, precipitous moves ill!mediately to bring in acts without the proper type of investigation into the 'effect of it at the imcediate time. But I would recommend to the government that immediate consideration be given to the enac~nt of

an act in this Province for the provision of compulsory pension plans in private industries. And ! also feel, ~r. Speaker, that these pensions should be made portable if possible. In other words,if John Jones is ~orking •Mith a lac~ concern and he changes after ten years his E!Jl1llloyment, he ought to be able to carry that pension with him. Now, Mr.

Speaker, as ! said ! have done a bit of research on this ~self, and you will find,for instance,in various other provinces, Ontario, Saskatchewan, Quebec and Alberta, t~se provinces have acts entitled, '"!'he Pension cene.fits ~lets" or acts of sil:dlar nature. ! have also, & • Speaker, had conversations with ~he national presiden~ of a :n.ajor t::rust firm in Canada. rltb. .respect to it, and find that in the ?rovinc:e of Ontario, w-hen they brnught: in this particular act 1 ~ey included the aspect of portability in their pension plan and t:hey had to deter from it, they · bad t:o cancel that apsec:t out, and they are looking at it right now from the point of view .. of putting it back in again.

So there is a problem with respect t:o making pensions DOrtable, because of the contributions of employees and other technical difficulties and ghat have you. 5ut ! say right now that ~here are ~y people - and 9105

Hay 28, 1976 Tape no. 3013 Page 4 - mw Mr. }1arshall. I do not want this, as I say, to be construed as a criticism of the indus~ry or the employers, as it were, as very often people froo outside St. John's would like to say and make us. whipping boys of Water Street merchants. But it is a fact that there are many people, Mr. Speaker, who have been employed in concerns, worked hard for years, get up to age sixty-five and seventy, and there are no pensions provided for them. There are no pensions G~Tailable for them.

There have also been cases when peOl)le, when employers, have gratutiously, although they were under no obligation so to do, h<~~Te provided for pensions for senior people who have retired over a p-.riod of time, have found that because of the business -::everses or changed circumstances and what have you, that they have had to cut their pensions when tney have been out~ Now that is in!l=n and it is cruel, and the only recourse that we have is to this Legislature for the provision now of in private industry of a pensions benefits act which is going to require as broadly based and defined as possible group of industries, group of private c concerns~to provide funded pension ~lans for their employees, so that that person has a ·vested right, and we stop and we cease and we remedy this problem that has occurred.

Now I do not know whether hen. members in this House have experienced the same problems, but I have been acutely • aware of it representing an area in St. John's, in the urban areas of St. John's, which comprises of many peo-ple who have worked in places on Water Street and what have you, and they come to the point of retirement, there are no pensions provided for them. The employers, in all fairness,cannot provide the pensions without their business going bottom up, and without then a loss of employment to the people who are currently there. But it is a pathetic situatinn to meet. It is 9106

!fay 28, 1976 Tape no. 3013 Page 5 - tolW ~rr. ~rsb.all. an unjustifiable.~ untenable position to meet, and it is something whi.cll should oe taken up and taken up forthwith. r do not say that we can rush right ~ediately to the Jill or to the legislation now, and r think we have to taka credence of the fact that in this particular ~ with spir~ing ~lation and problens that busillesses entail as ":Jell as averybody else, that it has got to be done, and it has got to be done very carefully so that the equilibrium is not complete.ly upset. But this r. am sure of, :!r.

Speaker, · that one of the best reforms out: side of the other acts, like the Civil Ser7ice Commission Act and the Public Tander A.ct and othe·r great :naves that this goverm:umc has orought in, but one of the biggest reforms that this gove~enc could ~ring in now - you talk about the flag, and you talk about: your other bills that are on the Order Paper - there is no bill that could cla:iJD. a greater significance to t:he people of ~ewfoundland than the provision of a private ;:u!nsions act for pr!vate indusc:cy requiring these pension funds co be put t:here. I would ~pe to see, ~ir. Speaker, this matter pursued.

I mentioned matters 1ll this Rouse before from time to time, and it seems that it is not iust peculiar to me. Everybody has mentioned them, and tve seem to adjourn and, you know, that is the end of it. 3ut I think 9107 ·'

May 28, 1976 Tape 3014 PK - 1 ¥!· Marshall: that there ought to be striken, that the government should immediately make moves with respect to investigating this. I offer the government if it wishes whatever limited knowledge I had on the matter. As I say, I am not speaking ~ a ·vaCUUIII,as it vere. __ It is _something that I have done a great de.al of research on and can refer to the government to the various types of material that they need to study for it. Rut certainly - MR.. SMALLWOOD: Would the bon. gentle111an allow me to ask. him a question? MR.. MARSHALL: Yes. MR..

SMALLWOD: Assuming that the decision u made, that there shall be pensions in private employment and tliat these pensions ahall be portable, so that if a man goes from one job to aDDther, ft'om one employment to another,he carries his accumulated pension rights with him.

Assuming that is agTeed on, lloes the hou. member mean that the l:ilnit of the government's activity lin it should be that of introducing legislation to be adopted hopefully by the Legislature, imposing that obligation on private industry, but private industry not only to be obliged to do it, but to organize it BDd handle it and be exclusively in the banda of private industry;or does the bon. gentleman IIU!an that the government shall be the c:cllecting agency? It is alre.ady the collecting agency. It collects all kinds of money, and pays out all kiDds of money.

Would the hou. geDI:lem.sn.pass that also on to the goveraaent, for the gcve~t to impose rates of premium payments by the employers, and the goverament to pay it out vhen it becomes payable, or would he have it entirely private? MR.. MARSHALL: I thank the han. lllember for Twillingate for the question, Mr. Speaker. In mmver to it,I do not thi'Dlt that thia government can afford to get into a programme like this financ:iailr, and I do not think it is necessary for it to be done. But what I do think is that the government obviously vill have to regulate it through the Superintendent of Insurance or what have you.

They vill have to set dovn regulations, and they will have to see that they are . -.:9108

May 28, 1976 'rape 3014 PK- 2 Mr. Marshall: complied ~th. !ut as iar as the fiscal support ~th respect to it within the regulations that are provided, the 111011ies will b.ave to come from employer and employee contributions,as is normal. I do not feel that the government should get involved in the f1lllliUg of it. 'There are many pension plans available in private industry where these pensions cau be put in,md ehat they can be funded in a very secun, and a very benefical manner.

As a matter of fau, I should not wish to see t:he government get involved. in tha't vay bec:.ause I feel that what the govermDellt •o~ould do is vhat really it has done in \he paalic servic:e; it: would then in eff~t ecllec't the "!'prwuma and pay out the 1110uey. Now I have long thought as vel!, alehough it is very hard :!.no t:hese fi.scal. times to do it, that the pensions of public: servants ought to be funded and provided for out.!lide the agenc:y of government itself. Now t:hat i.s · - The Auditor General recommended it. MR. MARSHALL: !Jell yes, but that is a big ezpense· to c:ha~e this tide.

I would hope that the governmut would do !:hat in the future. But for the present time what I would rec0111111euci i.s that it would be ql1ite ad~uata. Obviously government brings_ in

an act, obvioualy government has got co regulAte it, and gove:rm~~eat haa got r:o polic:e it. But the funding of it - MR.. SMALl. WOOD: Mr. Speaker, to a point of order. This background of noise, it ecaaa fr0111 human threats, it continues, and a. member is mt:1.tlad to be Mard. MR.. SPEAKER: (MB.. YOUNG) Order, please: I will a.ak the Sergeant-at-Arms to see ebat the noise in the corridors is kept at a min:imulll, please.

ADd before the hon. lllelllber ecntiuues with his remarks or his S'peec:h, - ou behalf of all of the member~ nF eh• l!ouse of Assembly I would like to wdcoaae to the galleries a group of Grade X s~udents from Cape Johu Collegiate,taSeie acc:ompal1ied by their Principal, Mr. Hatfield and their teac:her Mr. Burton. I trust your stay wtil be a. happy and enjoyaile one. SOME BON. MEMBOS : Hear, hear ! 9109

Kay 28, 1976 'I'ape 3014 PK - 3 Mil.. SPEAKER: The hon. member for St. John's East. Mil.. W. MARSHALL : Thank you, Mr. Speaker • I notice, Mr. Speaker, you know, the noise does not subside and it is COWling from .thia side, so perhaps, you know, I do not know vhat else we have got to do. It is rather distracting. Mil.. SMALLWOOD: Not only to the gen~lem.an speaking but to those who want to hear him. Mil.. w. MA..~: Now then, Mr. Speaker, I hope I have made, you know, that position quite clear. 'I'he han. member for Ttnllingate asked a very reasouable question there.

It ia not - it certainly I think, it would almost defeat the ~urpoae for this money to be paid into the goverm~~ent and the goverm~~ent to adm:lni.ster it. This meaey has to be collected, it has to be wbat we called funded and paid to the large caapanies that fund pension concerns, but the goverm~~ent has to see that th:ia is done, and that is the government's involvement. The govenzaent has to make it compuls':'ry on employers to provide these pensions. Mil.. SMALLWOOD : No, the House. MR.

MAR.SllALL: The House, yes. l'b.e B.ouae has to make a coapulsory, the Bouse has to regulate the =--aer in which it is going to be carried out to ensure that there is seeurity for the people involved, and that it is done fairly. But the 1110t1ey bas to 1:cae otnrioualy frCIII prl vate sources, employer-employee, vb.ic:h is normal through their contributions 1 and it has to be funded. But as I say, Mr.

Speake't', I d .o not know of any reform or any measure that a govenze:at cenld take that is so necessary in this ProVince as this partic:ular thing, and I would hope that it would merit the attention of the government, and that govermaent would pursue and enquire into it. As I say,I have a certain amount of information about it that I would be only too glad to give them. I wu going to draft a bill on it, Mr. S!!eaker, myself~beeauae I have drafted bills before and in t.he past. ·But.:.,·.it 1a a veey involved thing, md it requires a tremendous amount of work by a lot of people with various expertiee.

And I think the goverm~~ent through the, you 9110

May 28, 1976 Tape 3014 PIC - 4 Mr. Marshall: know, through the government agency is the proper place to do it. But I draw this one, I draw this one observation '-ihen I say the government is the proper one to do it: I feel that it is uo to the el~cted renresentatives that is,the Cabinet, in this case, which is the executive a:m to take the bull by the horns and to see that this 1.s done.

I have 110ticed that with respect to the reliance,.a.s there has been a great reliance in all governments, in all stages • in all places in Newfoundland and what have you,upon the public servi.ce, and senior public servanu, their word is a.lmast taken as the Holy llrit, and if they turn around and s.-y something cannot be done, it never turns up to be done. And I say to the Cabinet and to the gove1"mmlent that this is s0111ething that em be done. It has been done in other provinces. !At us Sei! that it is dD!le.

And let us see that we u.se the agency of government to bring it about so that we can bring 1n a very benefical refom into this Hoaae of Assembly. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker; would the bon. gentleman yield again for a -ent. ~ MARS'HALL: Yes. MR. SMALI.WOO'O: Row would the legislation if it vet'e int-roduced into the Haaae, debated, paaaed, how would it guard against imposing too heavy a burcie.n?

It 1o10uld be too h-vy possibly on s0111e but not on others, A scheme impose on :!trice 1n Grand Falls Ot' t.':.e Iron On Compaay in Labrador City and Bowatars and so on, and so on, ~ht fall, yon lalow, reasonably lightly on their shoulders, but on some little firm employing fou-r peol)le Ot' seven people fall 11111sh more onerously. liouid it be as a porpo-rtion of wages eaned or what? Rev would that dange-r be avoided? MR. MAB.SRAI.L: Well, M:r. Speaker - MR. SPEAKn (MR. YOUNG): Order, please! Before che hon. ~ember coueinues.

I would like on behalf of all che members of the House of Assembly co welcome to th~ galleries_ a group of ~enei-four Grade XI, students, from Our Lady of Fatima High School, St. Bride's,accompanied 9111

·. May 28, 1976 Tape 301~ PK- 5 Mr. Soeaker (Mr. Young): by their teachers, Sister Patricia King, and Mr. Hubert McGrath. I trust your stay will be a very enjoyable and educational one. SOME BON. MEI!lBEPS : Rear, hear! '!'he bon. member for St. John's !ast may continue. MR. MARSHALL: '!'hank you, Mr. Speaker. '!'he question posed by the bon. member for Twillingate is the reason why we have to proceed very, very carefully vith it, so that we do not have a real adverse affect on the small businessman.

But this I say, I do not care what size of the business, whether it is Price or what have you, and there are certain businesses that might possibly have to be ezempt,but I would have to look at them very closely befpre you esempt them, it would have to be something like employing seasonal workers. But I say this, that anybody who conducts business in this Province who cannot prOTide for the security of employees who have worked for them for thirty and forty years ought not really to be in buiness.

They have to pay the employee a salary, so they obviously have to pay the employee a salary and they have to provide for these pension smouuts. Now it 'COuld not possibly be a flat rate pension· What really would have to happen, it would have to be based on the wages of the person, and there would have to be contributions the same as it is in a normal pension plan where large concerns have these particular plans. 9112·

Yay 28, 1976 Tape 3015 IB-1 I feel, as I say, that it is a matter of urge~ey. In my district - and my district is caybe no different :han an~ere else - but I have a large number of elderly people who have retired from various 1:JUsinesses dcwntct~. I underline aga:Ln.,I am net cast::!llg a511ersions - but I will not go into that again- against the ~erehants 1 but here they are. They are in houses here L~ the City of St. John's. Xhere is spiralling inflation going on. Sure they got their Canada Pension Plan and they got their Old Age Pension but they have nothing else.

If they do happen to have a pension, it is a pittznce ~ecause that is all t~t can ~e afforded to be paid to th~, thirty or forty dollars a ~onth in same cases.

I talked to a perl!cn there about sUr: ~nths ago ~vho '"'as employed from a firm that is carrying on business ·~ere for a lon~ period of time and his pension "'"'Orks out to t~renty-seven cellars and fifty eents a month. !hat is gratuit~as. :S:e has to t'ely on the benevolence of the fo~r employee and that is not good enough. !n this day and age, in 1976, I am not advocating that gove~nt get involved in everything, I do not think government should get L-.volved in everything.

Buc I do firmly believe that govenunent has to set ~~e regulations by which the genet'al populace works and that this regulation ought to be set down. There 11111st be a pensions benefit: act: in this Province and it: ouszht to oe bt>ou!!hf" in as soon as possible~but: not: to rush to print. Be very careful what: we are doing,to make the enquiries beforehand so t:hat we may bring it in as easily as possible.

But 'Ne cannot be put off by people who say it cannot be done,because it has been done in other areas. '"'e are not to be put off by highly paid civil servants •.tho have certain ideas as ~o the orderliness of life,and ! thot'oughly recommend and strongly reeommend to the Cabinet that it take the bull by the horns and,as I say, I will give t~e government any information ct' anybody who wishes it. MR. SMALLWOOD: It has already . . 9113

Yay 28, 1976 Tape 3015 ''!'. ~A " Si'-"'.!.L: It has been done. The hon. lilember-~~ho usually listens comes in ••hen I speak, ~·r. Speaker, and listens very attentively- hac to go so~where else. But it has been done in Ontario. It has been done in Saskatchewan, Quebec and blberta. In~~tario they attempted to bring it in on the ~~tter of it being portable, that is to be able to be coved fro~ one business to another. But they found that they had difficulties there. ~::'. ~'EAP..Y: Compulsory pension. ~~. ~'AP.SF..ALL: Compulsory pension plans and if possible to ~ke them portable. ~!r.

Speaker, at the risk of wearing out my welc:ol!!l!, ~oould the hon. gentle'!!an yield again? On this matter of portability, a fello~ goes to vork with a fi~ and he vorks a year, tvo or five, and the firm goes broke or he gets fired or he quits them to get a better job elsewhere~and so going through life maybe in six or eight different employments including public: service, the government. i·!:!.ll it matter, should it ~tter, the portability, the accumulating rights that he is earning just by working ant! by the passing of time, would that be affected by the nature of his change of employment?

The f:!.Tm goes broY~, he gets fired or he quits or whatever reason, would the portability continu~ in any case? ~'1'. . ~·:AP.SR.6..!.1. : It t.•ould have to continue, >.tr.

Speaker, because what I am saying is teat these contributions would be what you call funded, wic:h is really another wsy of meaning that they are put through a third party in trust., and it is almost like a sinking fund, if you want to try to equate it,although it is not as simple as that, you ·know, to borroving and it grows: Now if he goes from one place to another,and in the other place within the regulations or for some reason or other it is not provided there the money should remain there so that he c:an get the benefit at a certain a~e anyway.

It should not be allowed to be ~~thdraYO by him unless in the case he reaches the age of retirement of sixty-five or in the case that he passes away and then the benefits 9114

~·ay 28, 1 ?76 Tape 3015 Il!-3 :'R. ~"'-P.SR.~: would go to his family. But it is a case of p~otecting, as far as ! am concerned, the e~~!oyee and it is - I will not say long ove~due, that is a cliche phrase-hut it is certainly is a reform~ as I say, that must be looked into and ! feel that so~eth~g should be done about it because •,1e ~ave in this Province very dramatic and unfortunate examples of ~mat has occurred '!ly reason of the fact that people have retired without pensions~cr if they retire with them they are very meager and even at that they are gratuitous depending upon the fortunes o~ the business.

If the business goes bankrupt, they are gone •~th i~ teo. I cio not think that people ~men they get to retirement should be put in that position. !hat is why I say it should be funded by a third party. ~~o~r, if there are any other questions I would he delighted to answer them. There are a fe..., other points thilt ! '·'ould like to !!'.ake in connection 'n!:h t!'>e Throne Speech. ~·"'·· s~~mr.;ooo: I would like to ask a question but I am net sure tb.at the hon. gentle= can ans>.-er it. The one •.;ho could answer it is the :?remier. !·~at about bringing in chis legislation? PP.E!-!IER MOORES: Good idea.

Good idea. '·!e are getting some-where. YP. .• ~ARSHALL: I t!:tank the hen. ;nember for the assisc:ance, Y:r. Speaker. :\ow ~,·e get on to another point that I think :1eec!s to oe brought up. Ye hear in the City of St. John's now a little ~it - probably not enough - of che position lnth respect to cleaJ1-up. I think that dramatic steps need to be ta.Y~n, here again ~ave to be taken ,by the gove~nt with respect to not just the citv of St. John's but our entire countryside. One of our greatest assets in this P~ovince has to be the outdoors and our scenery and whac: we have.

Sut you do not need to travel verv far in St. John's patticularly and you will see the condition of the streets. ~<ell, that is a municipal responsibility. Rut if you go to places like the ~'arine l'rive,for instance - I can 9115

~·ay 28, 1976 Tape 3015 IB~ pick th~ out - or St. Phillip's,which I have occasion,as we all do, from time to tirle to go through,and you look at the lookouts that have been provided along the !Sides of the roads everywhere. It is a proV1.ncial disgrace and there is no way - we are all Newfoundlanders and there is no way of getting around it -that Newfoundlanders do not respect their countryside in the same manner as other Canadians do. I kDaw that i• the eype of inflammatory statement that politiciaas 'IIOUld love to get up and perhaps say that the hon. member for St.

John's East ia all wrong and the people from Newfoundland are just as good as an~ere else and what have you. It is allrcst 1~ the clarion call to battle. But it is true and all )I)U have to do is CODIPare the countryside in this Province ~o1ith the eount:rys'ide everywhere else. 'l'his is,as far as I am concemed, one of our major resources. You know there is .iln old popular song that one of my little daughters used to sing about cats and rats and elephants. I 1De8Il, you see everything but - wel.l,you see cats and rats on the side of the roads but you do not see elephants. You see beer bottles. You see cans.

You see pop bottles. You see everything strewn all over the countryside everywhere. Something has to be done about it • Now, what are we going to do? I would recommend to the government,first of al.l, one of the obvious thinrs is heavier litter fines anc! stricter enforcement ought to be mainta:!ned with respect to this. I would also aks thB!II to consi-der possibly deposits on bottles. making it mandatory for theze to be deposits . on bottles and beer ems and what have you. I think the major thing is that there has to be a process of education. ~·men I heard the hon. member for Terra ~ova O'r.

Lush) :in the estimates "~o.ilen he made, ! thought; a really good speech on education and our contribution into education, I think that we should be educating the young people 911&, .

May Z8, 1976 Tape 3015 IB-5 !"!?.. ~H....u.L : in this ?rovince with respect to the aecessity ~o cleanup. Now, the ~!inister of the Envi~or.:r.ent has already taken certain steps with respect to it and there are various other concerns that are working on this. But I think that we aeed to have a real crash effort tdth respect to this; with respect to our younger peeple.

Now one of the thiags I would recommend is that in ~any other p~vinces-although I do not lL~ to reccr.mend that TNe dQ things because other provinces do the1:1 - out in !!13ny ot.':ter provinces they !lave a holiday every Spr1ng in the schools - heavens knows the children get enough !lolidays an~.-ay - but a holiday specifically set aside for the purpose of sehool children going out around the countryside and pi~ing u-p the litter.

This draws it to their attention I think some of the money that is used in public relations in this government could be well directed to the production of television programmes to make younger people ~ch more consc i ous,much ~re litter conscious. All of us wile in this Province have s11:0ked from time to time,and have been subjected to our own child=en coming at us about t:b.e smoking and the hazard of ' sr;.olting over the past few years,can realize just wbat an effective w-eapon the television media particularly can be in this respect. I think that this i s something that the government should consider.

I also feel that the government should consider - and I am - concentrating on t.':te youc.ger people,because if 'N'e do :1ot c!o it with the younger people and really educate them 'N'ith respect to it, they are in many cases much more litter conscious that the adults are , bue { think it h.as got: 9117

May zs, 1976 Tape no. 3016 Page 1 - mw Mr. Marshall. to be hammered home to th~ And it is only through them that there can be improvement, that there could be .... -j.th younger people, there could be a programme implemented by the government without any increase of expenditure. ~e eould cut down perhaps in a few other places through various associations, Boy Scouts, Girl Guides or what ~e you _ - that might sound very trite, but it ia necessary - and to get them iDvolved in going out ·on .-projects to clean up our counn-yside and to keep it clean.

And :hen following that, I think we have got to slap down and slap d.o'iil'tl. i:mediately with very heavy fines. Look, Mr. Speaker, I have had occasion, as we all have had,I suppose, to go out in the country,and I enfoy the countryside as well as all members here do, and I have been, you know, eight or nine miles off _the main road, and you are in the middle of nowhere and you get the feeling that the last people who were here were perhaps the Beothucks, and that is a great feeling that I know we have all experienced.

It is ar-great release, and you look down at your feet and you find a beer can or a pop can or -.--hat have you in the water, and you wi.ll see garbage strewn, not just by the road side but throughout the country everywhere, and I feel that as far as I a1:1 concerned our greatest tou..'""ist resource is our Island itself.

And Newfoundlanders are seemingly bent on desecrating this resource, and I feel that the Deparment of '!ouris=, not just the Department of Tourism, · the govertDIII!tlt, but perhaps through the Department of Tourism and Envirot~ment and whatever all these restructured departments do, that they could make a real effort. And the effort has to be done in a real, as far as I am concerned, programme through education and television ·with the younger people to do something about it. Look,you do not have to go, as I say, very far.

When I say the ~ne Drive, I do not mean the people in that district, because everybody is the same. The reason why the Marine Drive is littered is that ~eo~l& come in from the outsida and thev are throwin~ cans around and what have you. But all Newfoundlanders, I think, bear

!!ay 28. 1976 Tape no. 3016 Page 2 -!!!W ~!:'. Marshall. the burden of ~;.e r. espons!~ilit}" ,.nth respect to it, and I know the government is caking steps ~ith respect eo it, but I think it has to take more dramatic steps ~han it has done. Another item that I wu.ld like to bring up- I had a note on it. I ~d these notes done ~y ~onths ago when the Address in Reply was first given.

And I said then that ! was disappointed, but now r have to ~ualify it. ! was disappointed to see nothing done with respect to n.o a=ouncement :::~ade ~~ith respect to g~und rents,to the position with respect to absentee landlords ,.,ho o~.m land here in the ciey of St.

John 1 s. ~low I qualify that, I say, by saying that I have since been on the :·tl:list:er of Justice 1 s own initiative, he has been in contact with ::te, and ! am :-.oping that legislation •rlll be before the House this session or if not as soon as possible ~;ereafter. ~~embers may reme!llber that during the last session of the Rouse ! brought in ~self a private member's resolution ·~ich never got debated. But it was not: brought in for the purpo