Manitoba Hansard — 23 March 1970 (Sitting 10, 29th Legislature, 2nd Session)

29-2-10

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Monday, March 23, 1970 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees. The Honourable Member for The Pas REPORTS BY STANDING COMMITTEES MR. RON. McBRYDE (The Pas): Mr. Speaker, I wish to report the first report of the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections. MR.

CLEHK: The Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections beg leave to present the following as their first report: Your Standing Committee of the Legislature on Privileges and Elections was appointed at the First Session of the 29th Legislature on Friday, September 5, 1969.

By virtue of a resolution of the Legislative Assembly adopted Friday, October 10, 1969 it was considered advisable for your Committee to study and review the provisions of The · Election Act with a view to making such recommendations respecting amendments thereto or improvements in the law relating to election of Members of the House as may seem to the Com mittee appropriate, and to sit during recess after prorogation and report to the House. By virtue of another resolution of the Legislative Assembly, passed on Friday, October 10, 1969, it was agreed:

(1) That your Committee would inquire into and report upon desirable and practical measures to limit and control provincial election expenditures in the light of our own Manitoba requirements and the experience in other jurisdictions.

(2) The Report of the Committee on Election Expenses (Canada 1966) be referred to the Committee for study.

(3) The Committee inquire and report on all matters pertaining to the conduct of elections in Manitoba as presently contained in The Manitoba Election Act. Your Committee appointed Mr. McBryde as Chairman, and the quorum was set at eight members. Your Committee met on: Monday, February 2, 1970 and Wednesday, March 11, 1970. Member8 of the Committee were provided with copies of The Manitoba Election Act arid The Report of the Committee on Election Expenses (Canada 1966).

Your Committee recommended that the Clerk of the Legislative Assembly be requested to obtain the necessary personnel to compile all necessary information with respect to elec tions. Your Committee recommends that when the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elec tions is appointed at this Session, the terms of reference set out in the two resolutions passed at the First Ses8ion of the 29th Legislature, on Friday, October 10, 1969, with respect to elec tion matters, and referred to your Committee, be the terms of reference of the Standing Com mittee on Privileges and Elections to be appointed at this Session.

Your Committee also recommends that the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elec tions, appointed at this Session, be authorized to sit during the Session and during recess or after prorogation and report to the House. All of which is respectfully submitted. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Flin Flon, that the report of the Committee be received. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin): I move, seconded by the Honourable Member from Swan River that the debate be adjourned. MR.

SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried.

'-! INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: In view of the length oftoday'eroufetlwproceedings and knowing that some of our visitors are on a rather rigid schedule, I would like at this time to direct the at tention of the Honourable Members to the gallery where today we have with us 40 students of Grade 11 standing of the Gimli Composite High School. These students are under the direction of Messrs. Onyschuk and Burkard. This school ls located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for GimlL We also have 45 students of Grade 7 and 8 standing of the Morris Collegi ate.

Theee students are under the direction of Miss Friesen, Mrs. Murray and Mr. Kavenhofen. This school ls located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Morris. And 50 students of Grade 5 standing of the Clifton School. Theee students are under the direction of Mrs. Purdy and Mr. Brethaur. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Me~ber for St. Matthews. On behalf of all the Honourable Members of the Legislative Aesembly I welcome you here today. MR. SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for OFborne.

The Honourable Leader of the Official Opposition. MR. JAMES H. BILTON (Swan River): In his absence, Mr. Speaker, may this matter be allowed to stand? MR. SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Kildonan. The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): Mr. Speaker, may I ask that this matter stand? MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion. INTRODUCTION UF BILLS MR. RUSSELL DOERN (Elmwood) introduced Bill No. 13,

an Act respecting the 1970 Centennial and the City of Transcona. HON. JOSEPH P. BOROWSKI (Minister of Transportation) (Thompson) introduced Bill No. 8,

an Act to amend The Garage Keepers Act; and Bill No. 9,

an Act to amend The High ways Protection Act. HON. RENE E. TOUPIN (Minister of Health and Social Services) (Springfield) introduced BUl No. 18,

an Act to amend The Marriage Act. HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture) (Lac du Bonnet) introduced Bill No. 14,

an Act to amend The Credit Unions Act. MR. JACK HARDY (St. Vital) introduced Bill No. 22,

an Act to amend The Liquor Con trol Act. MRS. INEZ TRUEMAN (Fort Rouge) introduced Bill No. 23,

an Act to amend The Mar riage Act (2). MR. BUD SHERMAN (Fort Garry) introduced Bill No. 24,

an Act to amend The Highway Traffic Act. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable the First Minister. HON. ED. SCHREYER (Premier) (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, I should like leave of the House to ask the Members of the Opposition, the House Leader for the Conservative Party, in particular, whether they would be in a position to respond to a motion of condolence today. I gave notice of this to the Leader of the Opposition. I notice he's detained on other business and would they- would some honourable member opposite be in a position to respond should we go ahead today? MR. BU. TON: Mr.

Speaker, we would be very honoured to do so but I am afraid the material is not here, that the Leader of the Opposition might have in hand. MR. SCHREYER: That being so, Mr. Speaker, I would advise honouralie members that we shall have the motions tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour) (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I would like to table the Annual Report of the Department of Labour for the year 1969. There are two copies.

I believe that there are copies available to the Opposition parties and all members of the House wUl be given a copy of the report as quickly as possible. MR. SPEAKER: It has been drawn to my attention that the Clifton School from which we have visitors today, is not in the constituency of St. Matthews but in the constituency of Wellington.

March 23, 1970 l87 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Youth and Education. HON. SAUL A. MILLER (Minister of Youth and Education) (Seven oaks): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I wish to table the following reports: the Annual Report of the University Grants Commission for the year ending March 31, 1969; the Annual Report of the University of Winnipeg '68-69;the Annual Report of the Brandon University, 1968-69; and the Annual Report of the University of Manitoba for the year ended March 31, 1969. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. MORRIS McGREGOR (Virden): Mr.

Speaker, I reg leave of this House to make a short statement followed by a question to the Minister of Cultural Affairs. I assure you, Mr. Speaker, that the question will be straightforward and the statement will be short. MR. SPEAKER: Has the honourable member leave? The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. McGREGOR: Mr. Speaker, hoping to get in the Throne Speech debate and knowing the hour!' are getting f'hort I would feel amiss if I didn't bring this particular point to the atten tion of this Legislature. I have two citizens in my constituency who are both past the century mark.

I have had the pleasure of being at both of their hundredth birthdays. They are both very mentally up; they are physically not quite as- but very good for 100 years. One is Mrs. Carlton who I think I would be safe to say if I was the political friend of all her kin, I wouldn't have to worry about re-election in Virden. She has some 27 great great grandchildren so you can juEt imagine how many other relatives she has. She is at this moment in Arthur constitu ency but I really feel I own her, as the Honourable Mr. Watt. She has many friends in Lenore, Blair and Elkhorn areas. The other one is Mr.

Tom Stanley- both of these articles were in both of the daily papers. I was at his hundredth anniversary last December. He is in good physical health and has no more wrinkles really than I have. You might think what my point is, but I think I will try to prove that we are tougher out there than we might lead some to believe. Mr. and Mrs. Stanley celebrated their 69th Wedding anniversary last January. That isn't quite enough, that anniversary for Mr. Stanley, it was his second marriage and he has got family living from the first one EO that proves maybe how tough we are. Mr.

Stanley is a very close neighbour; I often use his phone, drop in for a spot of tea, a cracker, a piece of cheese; I work land right adjoining his. The question now being, Mr. Minister of .Cultural Affairs, is there anything special being done for these people who are past the 100th birthday because I think we are all aware when you become that age, waiting until July or August it might just be too late; and that's exactly why I got up today, because it might just be too late and I would feel very amiss if in a week or a month that I hadn't done this, and that's the question. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for leave.

HON. PHILIP PETURSSON (Minister of Cultural Affairs) (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, an effort is being made to recognize all of the citizens of Manitoba who have reached their 10oth birthday and beyond. In this Centennial year it is only fitting that we give these citizens special recognition. I have the names- I made note of the names of these two citizens and they will be recognized. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. HOWARD R. PAWLEY (Minister of Municipal Affairs) (Selkirk): Mr.

Speaker, I beg leave to table the Eleventh Annual Report of The Municipal Board for the year ending December 31, 1969, pursuant to

Section 110 of The Municipal Board Act. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. LEONARD A. BARKMAN (La Verendrye): Mr. Speaker, I was just wondering while the Minister of Cultural Affairs was making those remarks, if he would perhaps wish to pass on to the member also that there is a "farm of the century" and perhaps these people would qualify, I don't know. MR. PETURSSON: A farm of the century- say a farm that is 100 years old or luis been lived on for 100 years? MR. BARKMAN: No, staying within the same family. MR.

PETURSSON: There has been a campaign on to try to find the oldest farm in the province, and certainly if there's a farm now that has been farmed for that length of time, a hundred years, the length of time that the province has been in existence, some recognition will be made of that fact also. In the meantime, we are trying to find the oldest farm, whether it's in the same family or not. I'm not too sure. But matters of this kind are being recog nized throughout the province wherever we get information of them.

' ' 1.88 March 23, 1970 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I'm sure that honourable members here would like to give recognition to yet another group of distinguished Manitobane: and I refer to the Curling Rink that represented Manitoba and Canada at the World Championship Curling Bonspiel just last week. Quite a number of citizens of Greater Winnipeg were at the Airport last night at 11:30, including myself, to welcome two of the four members of the rink home to Manitoba.

I thought that it was so appropriate in so many ways that they should have won the World Curling Championship for themselves and for Manitoba in this our Centennial Year. Manitoba has always done well in the Canadian Briar Tankard play-offs, but this, I believe, is the first time that a rink from Manitoba has won the World Championship; and coming as it does the first time on our 100th Birthday, makes it all the more worthy of comment and recognition. I'm sure honourable members would like to join in the words of commendation to be directed to these four fine Manitobans, fine athletes. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I wish to table the following reports. The Annual Report of the Department of Agriculture, year 1968-69; Annual Report of the Milk Control Board of Manitoba, October '68 to September '69; Annual Report of the Manitoba Agriculture Credit and Development Corporation, March 1969; Annual Report of the Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation, year ended March 1969; Annual Report of the Co operative Promotion Board under The Wheat Board Money Trust Act, year ending March 31, 1969. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day.

The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, this Party to which I belong would like to align itself and associate itself with the remarks made a moment ago by the Honourable the First Minister of this Province, containing his words of congratulation and felicitation to the members of the Don Duguid Rink who brought great distinction and honour, not only to their rink, the Granite Curling Club, which incidentally is located, Sir, in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Wolseley, but who brought great distinction and honour to the Metropolitan area of Greater Winnipeg and indeed the entire province of Manitoba, and the nation, our country - Canada, in this our Manitoba Centennial Year, with such a brilliant and sportsmanlike and triumphant showing both in the MacDonald Briar Championships played here earlier in March, and more particularly in their display this past week, culminating on Television on Saturday, when for all of us to see on our screens in the living rooms, they brought the World Curling Champion ship to Winnipeg, Manitoba and Canada.

It was a very moving moment, I thought, Sir, when the Canadian Flag was raised and the National Anthem of our country was played as the four members of the Don Duguid Rink stood front and centre in the Auditorium in Utica and dis played the sportsmanship and the athletic prowess for our neighbours to the south to see, that all who know them have come to expect of them here in our province. So we in the Conserva tive Party take great pleasure in associating ourselves with the compliments expressed by the First Minister a moment ago. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. GORDON E.

JOHNSTON (Leader of the Liberal Party) (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, we in the Liberal Party would like to also associate ourselves with the complimentary remarks made by the Premier concerning the Championship Team of the World for Manitoba. I think, perhaps, their names should go on the record; and if I may be allowed to, I would call off their names: Don Duguid, Jim Pettaplece, Bryan Wood and Ron Hunter are the four gentle men who made us world famous in a sense.

Perhaps I could say at this time that the beginning of our Centennial year, sportswise, got off to a rather bad start with the cancellation of the World Tournament, but I think that these four men by themselves have done much to pull Manitoba back into the sports scene in the world and in Manitoba, and I would like to compli ment them for what they have done. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q. C. (River Heights): Before the Orders of the Day, I would like to address a question to the Minister of Industry and Commerce.

I wonder if he would explain to the House the functions in the government of Mr. Alister Stewart. HON. LEONARD S. EVANS (Minister of Industry and Commerce) (Brandon East): Mr.

March 23, 1970 189 (MR. EVANS cont'd.) . . . . . Speaker, the gentleman named is a member of the Economic Development Advisory Board. Specifically, he is Vice-Chairman of that particular Board. The terms of reference of the Board are known to the public and to the members of this House. MR. SPIVAK: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Is he a salaried employee? MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, to my knowledge, he is not. MR. SPIVAK: Another supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. I wonder if the Minister would indicate his salary, please. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, that question will be taken as notice. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable the Attorney-General. HON. AL. MACKLING, Q. C. (Attorney-General) (St. James): Mr. Speaker, I wish at this time to table the Annual Report of the Public Utilities Board for the Year ending December 31, 1969. While I'm on my feet, Mr. Speaker, I would like to take the liberty of formally answering the question of Mr. Beard, the Honourable Member for Churchill and also the Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell, Mr. Graham, who has a continuing interest in this matter as well. The Honourable Mr.

Beard- (pardon me)-- the honourable member enquired as to any change in the liquor outlet in Gillam. The reference was to the beverage room license in that community, and there was some misunderstanding on my part as a result of the question he asked in connection with liquor. I am now advised, that Hotelier Marcel Chartier was the beverage room operator and licensee at Kettle Rapids, until January 17, 1970. He retired his. license voluntarily, and since that date there has been no beverage room or vendor service at the project.

I understand that on March 2nd the Manitoba Hydro successfully applied for the right to act as licensee for the campsite, and that they have engaged the services of Crawley McCracken to manage and operate the beverage room, which it is anticipated will operate from April 1st, 1970. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. GD..DAS MOLGAT (Ste. Rose): I have a supplementary question to the reply given by the Minister. Could the Minister describe and define for us the term "voluntary" that he used in his reply explaining the return of the license by the previous licensee? MR. MACKLING: Indeed I can.

The licensee considered the rent too high and he decided to move elsewhere. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. GORDON W. BEARD (Churchill): A supplementary question. I'm sorry, Mr. Speaker. Has there been any new negotiations taking place in respect to the catering service between Manitoba Hydro and Crawley ·-McCracken, or will there be? MR. MACKLING: That is not under my portfolio. However, I will undertake to supply further information if that is vital to the honourable member. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. LEONARD H. CLAYDON (Wolseley): Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Honour able Minister of Cultural Affairs. A moment ago he said that they were making an investiga tion as to the oldest farm in Manitoba. Would he now like to have the name of such a person? I would give you the name of E.R. McDonald of Gunton, Manitoba. This farm has continuously been handed down from generation to generation since before land registration began in Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. JACK HARDY (St. Vital): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to direct this question to the Honourable Minister of Cultural Affairs.

Can the Minister advise this assembly as to whether or not any footage was cut from the film "I am curious yellow"? MR. PETURSSON: Mr. Speaker, there have been no cuts in Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, my question is addressed to the Minister of Industry and Commerce. I wonder if he could indicate to the House the salaries or stipends paid to the other members of the Economic Advisory Board? MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the honourable member to submit an Order for Return. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SPIVAK: Mr.

Speaker, my question is addressed to the Minister of Finance. In the last Session I asked hlm on a particular occasion for the amount of the overdraft of the

190 March 23, 1970 (MR. SPIVAK cont'd.) . government in connection with its bank account and also for Hydro and Telephone. He indicated that he would not declare this publicly, but he did give the information privately, and I gather he offered it to any other member who would want that in formation privately. I wonder if the Honourable Minister of Finance would furnish me with the information of the overdraft of the government and of the province and the overdraft of the Hydro and Telephone as of December 2nd, or the 2nd and the 17th of each month from December, January and February? Mr.

Speaker, because a comment was made of an Order for Return, I am certainly pre pared to file this by way of Order for Return, but the Minister preferred to give this informa tion outside of the House and privately. HON. SAUL CHERNIACK, Q. C. (Minister of Finance) (St. John's): Mr. Speaker, I'll consider the request. MR. SPEAKER: The House Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the widespread interest in the subject mat ter, could the Premier or other of the Cabinet inform the House with respect to the Yoko and John Lennon visit, as to whether or not any government money will be spent on extending the invitation or the expenses while they are here? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, there have been quite a number of people invited to Manitoba this special year, and the people that we have invited, we have not undertaken to pay the expenses of their coming here, and so the same applies in this case. MR. G. JOHNSTON: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

I notice the Premier says there wUl be no money expended on the bringing of special guests here. Will there be any money expended on the expenses of the couple while they are here? MR. SCHREYER: We have not contemplated that possibility, Mr. Speaker, although gathering from the interest of my honourable friend it would seem that he is so interested and charmed in the possibility that he may wish to privately pay for their sojourn. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Just in case my honourable friend is linking me on the side of the "Angels". I assure him I would not like to participate in footing the bill. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, last week in response to a question, the Minister of Youth and Education indicated that his department was planning some pretty interesting initi atives or projects to take care of some of the problems of summer employment this year for university students in Manitoba, not just at the University of Manitoba, but all Manitoba Uni versity students. Could the Minister advise the House as to when these initiatives will be an nounced in view of the fact that the .academic year is rushing to a close? MR. MILLER: Very very soon, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPIVAK: A supplementary question to the Minister. I wonder if he could indicate to the House, how many summer jobs are required? MR. MILLER: I couldn't indicate this at this time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Before the Orders of the Day, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Labour. Would the Minister be in a position to indicate the possibility of jobs at The Pas. I have had many requests from constituents re the possibility of jobs at The Pas. MR. PAULLEY: In the expanding economy of Manitoba there's possibility for jobs all over the whole province.

I'm not able precisely to give the answer to my honourable friend in respect to The Pas, but I'm sure, Mr. Speaker, he is well aware of the developments that are taking place there and of the expanding economy in that area. I'm sorry I cannot give a precise answer to my honourable friend. MR. McKENZIE: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Would the Minister provide that information to the House? MR. PAULLEY: When we have that information I would gladly provide it to the House and I hope my honourable friend will accept one of the positions that may become available. MR.

McKENZIE: An additional supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Would the Minister be prepared to say whether or not one needs a union card to apply for a job at The Pas. MR. PAULLEY: I want to say to my honourable friend, and I'm sure that as a result from correspondence, there are certain contracts between the employer and the employee under which it is a requirement that the individual hold a union card which is in accordance with the laws of the Province of Manitoba, and I have no intention of upsetting the law of Manitoba.

March 23, 1970 MR. SPEAKER: The Hono.urable Member for Lakeside. MR. HARRY ENNS (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, 1 direct a question to the Minister of Fi nance. 1 wonder if he can indicate to the House the number of persons that were either inter viewed or considered for the appointment to the Chairmanship of the Manitoba Hydro Board prior to the appointment of Mr. Cass-Beggs. MR. CHERNIACK: ... considered many. I don't think that I should go into any more than that, Mr. Speaker; I don't think that it is the responsibility of government to report on all interviews that took place in connection with any employment. MR.

ENNS: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Is the Minister prepared to indi cate to the House any further changes in the management at Manitoba Hydro at this particular time? MR. CHERNIACK: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. HENRY J. EINARSON (Rock Lake): Mr. Speaker, I direct this question to the Minister of Labour. In view of the statement made by the Canadian Congress of I.,a.bQur in regards to the restraint on wages and prices, I'm wondering if the Minister of Labour in this province agrees with him or does not agree insofar as Manitoba is concerned. MR.

PAULLEY: I believe, Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend is referring to a news

article that appeared in the paper today. I've been so busy looking after the affairs of Manitoba, I haven't had time to read the report other than the headlines. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. GABRIEL GffiARD (Emerson): A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Has the Minister of Labour not got the services of an Executive Assistant? MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, the answer is yes. One of the most efficient individuals available to any Minister in Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. GffiARD: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Youth and Education. It was reported to the House by the Minister last week that the balanced assess ment for the province had increased approximately $100 million. I wonder if he could advise the House of what portion of that 100 million comes from the Metro area approximately? MR. MILLER: I'm afraid I don't have that information. I could try to get it for the member. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. HARDY: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct this question to the Honourable the First Minister.

IE the First Minister in receipt of correspondence from the Deputy Chairman of the Metropolitan Corporation concerning the proposed convention centre in Winnipeg. MR. SCHREYER: Not at this point in time, Mr. Chairman. It may be that the letter has been received by my office. If it has it has not been brought to my attention as yet. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, sometimes the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. I wonder if the Minister of Industry and Commerce would tell us whether he is in agree ment with Mr.

Douglas' statement that politics was involved in Transair's application? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, a point of order. That question asks for an opinion, which is clearly outside the rules. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. HON. SIDNEY GREEN, Q. C. (Minister of Mines and Natural Resources) (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I have now a Flood Forecasting Committee report resulting from the meeting of March 20, 1970.

I've prepared copies for all the members of the House. rn read a very short part of it which is pertinent to public information: "The Committee reports that a stage at Winnipeg well below the first flood stage of 18 feet City Datum is expected. Furthermore, indications are that the Red River between Emerson and Winnipeg will be confined within its banks. However, the Committee emphasizes the fact that weather conditions from now on are highly significant and could give rise to some what higher peak stages in the event of subsequent adverse meteorological conditions.

"On the Assiniboine River spring peaks near normal are indicated on the assumption that weather conditions from now until the end of the breakup period will be average. There is no. evidence that flood stages will be reached. If necessary, depending on ice conditions at the

192 March 23, l9'ZO (MR. GREEN cont'd.) . time of the break-up the Portage Diversion will be operated to reduce the posstbllity of local flooding from ice jams between Portage la Prairie and Winnipeg. " There are other parts to the report, Mr. Speaker, but I believe that is sufficient for my purposes. -- (Interjection) -- Well, God is mentioned in the first paragraph. - (Inter jection) - "On the assumption that weather conditions from now until the end of the break-up period will be average." MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Gladstone. ORDERS OF THE DAY- ADDRESS FOR PAPERS MR.

J.R.FERGUSON (Gladstone): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honou able Member for Charleswood: THAT an humble address be voted to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor praying for copies of all correspondence between the Manitoba Government and the Government of Canada since July 15th, 1969, with regard to the very serious problem of unsold grain. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: There's just one point I'd like to make here and that is, "subject to an okay from the Federal Government. " MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to make an amendment, but is it in order to make it at this time? MR. SPEAKER: I believe there's a procedure that we've followed to make it possible; not at this time, but . . • MR. GREEN: I'll adjourn the motion. I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for La Verendrye the motion be adjourned. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, on the point of order, I think that- I believe I'm correct in saying that the member should merely ask that this be stood over to make sure it appears on Tuesday when Addresses for Papers or Orders for Return which are debated will come up on it, to make sure that it appears tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. BILTON: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Roblin: THAT an humble address be voted to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor praying for copies of all correspondence between the Manitoba Government and Manitoba Hydro relating to the appointment- of Mr. Cass-Beggs as Chairman of that Crown Corporation. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, we're prepared to accept this. MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. GEORGE HENDERSON (Pembina): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for St. Vital: THAT an humble address be voted to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor praying for copies of all correspondence between the Government of Manitoba, Government of Canada, and International Joint Committee with respect to the proposed Pembina Valley Dam. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, the government, with the same reservations regarding the consent of the senior level of government, is prepared to accept this Address. MR.

SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. HENDERSON: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for St. Vital: THAT an humble address be voted to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor praying for copies of all correspondence between the Government of Manitoba and Canadian Canneries Limited, and any other interested parties, with respect to the Morden plant of Canadian Canneries from July 15, 1969.

March 23, 197{} 193 MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable the First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: This Address for Papers, unlike the preceding one, does not ask for correspondence or papers or documentation exchanged between two levels of government, but rather between one government and one private group or company, and as the Honourable Member knows, Address for Papers of that kind traditionally are not accepted, have never been accepted.

However, the honourable gentleman is free, I think, to pursue this with the company in question. and if they are willing to give him information which he may wish that is up to him. MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion lost. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. MOLGAT: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for La Verendrye: THAT an humble address be voted to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor praying for copies of the submissions made by the Manitoba Government to the Federal Government I,"ela- ·. tive to the question of designating certain areas of the province for special federal grants and loans under the federal special area program. MR. SPEA!(ER presented the motion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: No problem, Mr. Speaker.

We accept . . . - (Interjection) --: Yes, subject to the usual requirements of concurrence by the Federal authorities. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Speaker, if I may. I separated the two requests so that there would be no need to delay this one because it's strictly a submission of the Manitoba Govern ment and this was as a result of a question I asked the First Minister the other day. MR. SCHREYER: I said, Mr. Speaker, no problem. MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. MOLGAT: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for La Verendrye: THAT an humble address be voted to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor praying for copies of all correspondence between the Manitoba Government and the Government of Canada since August 1, 1969 relative to: (

a) the designation of certain areas of the province for special federal grants and loans; (

b) the Churchill area. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable the First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, simply to indicate that we accept this Address for Papers subject to concurrence of the Federal authorities. MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: The next item appearing on the Orders of the Day, honourable members, I believe should properly appear on Tuesday's Orders. It's a matter that ought to come up on Private Members' Day. The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Swan River: THAT an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing: 1. Trips made by each Minister of the Crown or member of government caucus from July 15, 1969 to March 11, 1970 to places outside Manitoba at public expense, show ing: (

a) Destination (

b) Duration of absence (

c) Purpose of each trip (

d) Cost of each trip (

e) When 2. List of personnel in Government employment who accompanied Minister or member of government caucus on each occasion showing:

(1) Where

(2) When

(3) Cost

194 Mareh 23, 1970 (MR. McKENZIE cont'd.) 3. List of persons not in government employment who accompanied Minister or member of government caucus on each trip at public expense showing: (

a) Destination (

b) Purpose of trip (

c) Duration of trip (

d) Cost of trip to treasury for each individual. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I'm just a little concerned with the procedure here.

We wish to accept the information requested, but my information is it's similar to the motion that was made by the Honourable Member for Morris, that there is a member who wishes to make an adjournment; so I want to make it quite clear that the government has no objection to the Return, but we don't want this statement here to preclude it's an amendment which I believe another honourable member wishes to make. MR. LAURENT L. DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, I suggest that they ask that this motion be allowed to stand, because I wish to take

part in the debate and that can be done only on Private Members. . . -(Interjection) - Well, if I move the adjournment, I believe that the mover will not be able to speak any more and he might want to exercise his right to speak to the motion. This is why I ask allow it to stand, but I'll await your decision, Mr. Speaker. MR. McKENZIE: . . . in support of the House Leader's request that it be held over until tomorrow, Private MembersDay, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Is it agreed that it stand until tomorrow? The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. FERGUSON: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for St. Vital: THAT an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing: The number and dates of meetings of each standing and special Committee appointed during and since the First Session of the Twenty-ninth Legislature to commencement of the Second Session of the Twenty-ninth Legislature and the general and specific responsibilities assigned to each. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, all of this information is a matter of public record which the member doesn't need government benches to provide, and without creating a precedence we're prepared to do this, but I want to indicate that normally this is not the kind of an order that necessarily needs government services. It's all public information and public record; but we'll compile the information as a service. MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. FERGUSON: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Brandon West: THAT an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing: 1. Number of applications received by the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation for loans under the new Agricultural Credit Program from October 10, 1969 to March 1, 1970. 2. Number of loans processed. 3. Number of loans approved. 4. Minimum loan approved. 5. Maximum loan approved. 6. Total amount loaned to date. 7. Number of applications received by the Agricultural Credit Corporation or lending agencies for guaranteed loans from April, 1969 to March 1970. 8.

Number of loans approved. 9. Minimum loan approved. 10. Maximum loan approved. 11. Total amount loaned to date.

March 23, 1970 MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, there's no problem, I accept the Return. MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for The Pas for an Address to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor in answer to His Speech at the Opening of the Session; and the proposed motion of the Honourable Leader of the Official Opposition in amendment thereto. The Honourable Member for St. VitaL MR. HARDY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

On Friday last I indicated to members of the House that I would hope that one of the traditions that this House would not depart from was the manner in which respect is shown to Her Majesty in this Assembly when in fact she does visit Manitoba in July of this year. And I also indicated to members on Friday last that Miss . Simone Beauchamp of the provincial constituency of St. Vital was the winner, the Metropolita~ area winner in the Junior Achievement Award.

It does give me a great deal of pleasure, Sir, to advise honourable members that this charming young lady has in fact gone on to win the best Junior Achievement Salesman in Canada, which I think, Mr. Speaker, is indicative 9f the initiative that is shown by this constituency presently and a hundred years ago.

In speaking to the amendment one of the items that stands out, one in which there is a message, one of the few in fact where there is a concrete definite message, is the statement that there is a fundamental imbalance existing between Federal and Provincial governments and certainly between Federal, Provincial and Municipal governments. To me it euggests, and I think it's there, that in fact what this is saying is that, to municipalities- raise your own money. In fact don't look to us for any degree of assistance raise your own money.

Costs are increasing at the municipal level all thoughout the Province of Manitoba at a greater rate than the revenues themselves. One of the items, and I must admit that I was quite surprised in the manner in which this was introduced, and especially by the Minister of Youth and Education who unfortunately is not in his seat at the present time, was the announcement that in fact the levy, the mill rate was to be decreased by 1 mUl result ing in the mlll rates to be established to municipalities this year for school purposes under the foundation levy of 9. 9 and 33. 9.

Now what does this mean really in terms of dollars? In the terms of a mlll rate to those that perhaps are not in a position to realize the significance of this comment, I can cite an example where in one case this means 1. 4 percent, $9, 000 on a total requirement of approximately $650, 000 reduction. And I can also suggest, Mr. Speaker, this reduction of 1. 4 percent is insignificant. We'll take it, we'll take it, believe me- I'm speaking for municipalities- but it's a drop in the bucket.

The foundation levy and the special levy- and here again I'm citing a specific example- the special levy has been in creased by25.91 percent, the Metropolitan Corporation in excess of 18 percent, the total un controllables with the reduction because of assessment increases, amounts to 16. 63 percent, and of that we are getting back 1. 4.. Indeed municipalities are in trouble and this imbalance does definitely exist; it has to exist when these figures are presented.

So I'm suggesting, and although it has been mentioned in the Speech from the Throne that the government is considering, and in fact will conduct investigations into assessment and the over-all role of taxation, an interim measure has to be introduced prior to this in vestigation being conducted. Where does this 16 percent, where does this leave the individual who is attempting to buy his home, pay for his home, what position is he in? By the figures of the government some 43 percent are below the $3, 000 level. Granted many of these are not home owners but many of them are. - (Interjection) - May I suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that, yes Medicare premiums, true, but the increase in the mlll rate in municipalities this year is going to go a long way to wiping out any advantage that was gained. It's going to wipe this out. T.:> cite as an example, and this is a case that was referred to me, where a home. owner on a fixed income of $3, 000, their increase is going to conceivably be $50 annually, which goes a long way to offset any advantage that was gained through the reduction in Medi care premiums. I'm suggesting, Mr.

Speaker, that the government has to mtroduce interim measures to the municipalities in order that this imbalance does not in fact exist; and I would hope it would do it before mill rates are struck. I would dislike very much- mind you we are not in the position, we do not hold the purse strings -- but I would dislike very much that this

196 Match 23, 1970 (MR. HARDY cont'd.) . announcement be made after the mill rates have been struck and announced. I'm saying this because, not that municipalities would include this in their budgeting purposes for this year but to give them, and pass on to the ratepayers some sem blance of hope as far as property taxes are concerned. We also have the area and the bulk of this is made up of the increased cost in education. I sometimes wonder, Mr. Speaker, if in fact school boards should not be a committee of council or that they should be part of council.

We are both working, both councils and school boards are working for the same taxpayer, and it's a very unfair position to place any elected body whereby there are uncontrollable grants over which they have no control whatso ever and are still charged with the responsibility of raising taxes to meet these requirements. I must admit also, Mr. Speaker. that many of the proposals that were introduced in the Speech from the Throne I would agree with. I would agree with the Criminal Enquiries Compensation Act.

This first came to light to my knowledge some years ago at a conference of the Canadian Federation of Mayors and Municipalities, by a delegate from the City of Edmon ton. I would wholeheartedly agree that victims of crime should be compensated and certainly I would support this measure. There is also an indication that there will be a congress on Manitoba cultural groups. Here, again, I'm quite pleased with the introduction of this measure.

No one, including my self, will deny the fact that the ethnic groups which comprise the cultural mosaic of the Province of Manitoba have made a tremendous contribution to the Province of Manitoba and to Canada, and I would hope that this cultural congress would be very fruitful in ironing out some of the problems and some of the difficulties, the apparent problems and the apparent difficul ties that exist in this area. But may I also suggest, Mr. Speaker, that let us cease being hyphenated Canadians; let's be Canadians. Take what these ethnic groups, their culture, let's use it.

Let's use it to our advantage as we have done in the past, as they say- let's cease with this hyphenated Canadian. Mention was made of automobile insurance. It was also suggested that it's extremely difficult at this stage, at this point in time to make any real or have any real discussion on automobile insurance, it's rather a nebulous animal at the present time, and I would admit that perhaps there are certain inequities that exist in the present method. But may I suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that these inequities can in fact be overcome by the introduction of proper legis lation, and if in fact the Provincial Government, the government decides to go into the auto mobile insurance business, compulsory· or otherwise, in costing these charges may I suggest that all the costs be incorporated- all the costs be included. The cost of the administration, the overhead cost, the cost of buildings, the cost of cars, the cost of the civil service, and the reduction in taxes, that this be included also, to arrive at a figure, at a fair figure, when this in fact is introduced, if such is the case.

You mentioned previously, Mr. Speaker, and I quote: ''In the meantime legislation will be introduced dealing with specific problems pertaining to municipal assessment and taxation.

" I do not want to be repetitious but I am only suggesting and fervently request the government to seriously consider the introduution of interim measures; and perhaps we can go to a little greater extent in the Metropolitan Corporation, Metro Winnipeg itself, where the cost of transportation, the deficit incurred by transportation, by the Metropolitan Transportation System is in fact passed on to the ratepayer, the property owners themselves. Is this fair? What is the relationship; what is the relationship?

I am somewhat surprised because the $1, 750 per lane mile which is granted to the metropolitan Corporation for the maintenance of Metro streets does not represent one-half of the actual cost. The~ million that the grant for capital works is a very, very small portion of the total capital projects of the urban area of Greater Winnipeg. And I'm not suggesting for one minute, Mr. Speaker, when I say this that the bulk of the revenue is generated within this area. But is $3 million, is $3 million a fair shake?

Hopefully, the government in their look at municipal assessment and taxation, and in fact, the restructuring of the government in the Metropolitan Winnipeg area, will realize the cost, the cost, the monies that are required in order to operate a city, an urban city such as this.

I was a little concerned - and unfortunately the Minister of Transportation is not in his seat -- but I'm a little concerned at the inability of the government at this time to indi cate the road program that they are prepared to undertake this coming year, but I sincerely hope that they do not adopt the attitude that all roads are going to lead to Thompson. Ninety percent of the population of Manitoba is not north of Swan River. The revenues are generated

March 23, 1970 197 (MR. HARDY cont'd.) . . . . . here, and as I say, let's give it a fair shake. But by the same token, I'm not denying the fact that northern Manitoba haE to be assisted if in fact thlE province if to grow. Urban areas, municipal areas themEelves are alEo faced with another dilemma which goeE back to the imbalance, the imbalance that has been Euggested exists, and it appears that thiF if a fact, the imbalance tliat does exist between the various levels of government. Place yourself in the position of a municipality in borrowing money.

At the last session the Minister of Municipal Affairs indicated that there were some $8 million outstanding in municipal de bentures. Presumably this has been decreased, but in fact we were getting into a new year, we're getting into 1970, budgets are being drawn up, capital expenditures are being made, they are being contemplated. And what position do the municipalities find themselves in? On the one hand they can charge 8 percent, on the other hand, they go to the bond market and it cost 10.1 percent. It's costing $30, 000 on a $300, 000 loan, or issue; which has to be made up.

So I'm suggesting that the Provincial Government- and as a matter of fact, it's extremely difficult even at those prices, even at those prices, to sell debentures, municipal debentures, and I'm suggesting that the Department of Municipal Affairs, and indeed the government itself, seriously consider establishing a fund or a bank to purchase municipal debentures. It's a very shaky situation in which municipal debentures and municipalltles find themselves at the present time. I would suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that much has been done, and I would commend the government on the action that was taken, much has been done to relieve those that are in need of assistance, financial assistance, but I sincerely hope that the Provincial Government does not adopt the attitude for those people, those residents of Manitoba who find themselves be cause, in some cases, because of age, and in other cases because of the inability or the fact that there aren't those jobs available, that they do not adopt the attitude- if you can't afford it, get out; if you can't afford your taxes, get out.

I'm suggesting the Leader of the Opposition. indicated that these mill rates are going to be anywhere from 5 to 10, and this, Mr. Speaker, I am sure, is a very conservative small "c", estimate. Mill rates are going to be scandalous this year and there is no indication from the government that any assistance is going to be given to these home owners. The increase last year of $3. 00 to $5. 00 per capita grants to $8. 00, in fact, made the difference in many municipalities as to whether taxes increased or whether in fact they did not. So interim measures have to be considered. They should be considered.

Film censorship is something, and I did not mean this when I suggested or asked the question of the Mlnister this afternoon if any footage was cut from that particular film, fUm censorship is something that undoubtedly is going to have to be looked at, as are other many aspects of this manner in which this Legislature in fact, does legislate for people. Grants to School Board for handicapped children, I agree with; I agree with whole heartedly. But certainly the Foundation Program has to be broadened. The 7G-30 ratio as it stands now is not adequate to meet the existing needs and the spiralling costs.

I think another area in which the government should take a look is the method or the manner in which qualified teachers do not qualify for assistance grants, or school boards employing them. I was very pleased to see, and I congratulate the Honourable Member from Point Douglas in bringing this forward, to initiate public health measures.

I Eincerely hope in this area that this includes educational programs on drugs, because recent surveys have indicated that in fact it appears to be worse than the general public was aware of, and that in fact, users of the so-called soft drugs indeed do become, and in fact crave the others and consequently the chain reaction has begun and I would hope that educational programs in the schools and even to the point where monies are advanced by the province for this purpose may be made to school boards and other levels of government.

Pollution is something else, I think considerable progress has been made with respect to the pollution problem in Greater Winnipeg itself. The capital project for the Metropolitan C.:>rporation this coming year amounts to something in the neighbourhood of $17 million and of this $3 million is from the provincial government. But included in that is some 6 odd million dollars to be used for the construction of an additional sewage treatment facility. So that the charge that was made by the previous administration to the Metropolitan Corporation to clean up the rivers, in fact, I think will be accomplished.

I sincerely hope so. As previously mentioned, Mr. Speaker, I have no quarrel with the north country. It is

198 March 23, 1970 (MR. HARDY cont'd) . • • . . in fact the future of Manitoba, as in other provinces, it is the future of Canada. I would sincerely hope that they adopt a very prudent attitude towards the development of the north country. Now It was also indicated in the Speech from the Throne that the administrative responsi bility for all social assistance programs would be centralized; and in fact, presumably then they would be decentralized. In fact the mechanics of this operation are such that the machin ery is there now.

The machinery is there now for the provincial government to assume the full responsibility of the welfare program. One of the pressing problems that exists in the welfare field today - and I think that this has been mentioned on a number of occasions, on a couple of previous occasions - that one of the problems that are facing welfare social service wm-kers, social service organizations, is that of the deserted wife. Now I believe sometime ago the Honourable the Attorney-General indicated that some type of a reciprocal arrangement was made between the Province of Manitoba and the State of New York.

May I suggest that this be continued and in fact a very positive attitude be adopted towards this situation that exists. It was indicated by the Honourable Member for Elmwood that he is of the opinion that provincial planning authorities, provincial road authorities be integrated, or form part of the Metropolitan Corporation, or set up a Department of Urban Affairs in which this may be con ducted. May I suggest, Mr. Speaker, this is the last thing, this is the last thing, that the Metropolitan area requires. We have enough government now.

And I would suggest, that when this report is brought in by the Boundaries Commission for the restructuring of the organiza tion of the Metropolitan Winnipeg area, that they do not, that they do not recommend total amalgamation for the sake of amalgamation.

I may be incorrect in making this statement, but I believe it was contained in one of the local papers some month or month and a half ago, where in fact, the Boundaries Commission was, they indicated to them that they adopt a" go slow" policy with respect to any recommendation or information that may be forthcoming, which I believe was indicated that this would be made available certainly during this Session. I would hope that this does not indicate that government interference is in fact part of the Boundaries Commission operation. It's going to be most interesting, Mr.

Speaker, to determine and assess what terms of reference are going to be used, and in fact, the manner in which this is to be conducted, if in fact, there is any recessionary trend. I hope really, and I have said this on previous occasions, but I would hope that this is not the ouly way, if in fact this does come about, that the proposed bridge between Fort Garry from St. Vital, is in fact going to become a reality. I would dislike very much, Mr. Speaker, that this would become part of a welfare program or recessionary program. I think it's vital.

It's vital to the increase in the economy of the Metropolitan area. I'm also very concerned, Mr. Speaker, extremely concerned, in the manner in which, or at least perhaps I should say, in which some of the comments, some of the information, some of the economic ramifications that no doubt are with us, and were discussed during a recent debate with respect to the economic situation or in fact if it was a bad deal or it wasn't a bad deal. I'm concerned that figures in the amount of $4, 000 were included as potential jobs for people in the north country, and the utilization of the natural products in that area.

I was concerned, Mr. Speaker, to the point where I'd like to move a sub-amendment, seconded by the Honourable Member for Gladstone, ''but that this House further regrets the negative approach that the Government of Manitoba is presenting to the people of Manitoba regarding the extensive development of Northern Manitoba, and in particular the Churchill Forest Industries Complex in The Pas, which is to the benefit of all Manitobans." MR.

GREEN: . . . on the point of order, that before you accept a sub-amendment at this stage, I believe that although there is nothing in the rules directly contrary to a further aub-amendment, it would be implied that any sub-amendments to the Throne Speech debate be voted on on the fifth day which we have proceeded beyond. So it would seem to me that any further sub-amendment would be impossible by impll.cation if not by direct prohibition. MR. J. DOUGLAS WATT (Arthur): Mr. Speaker, if there is nothing in the rules to say that a sub-amendment cannot be introduced at this point, what is the point of order? MR.

GREEN: Mr. Speaker, again my honourable friend shows a level of understanding which causes me to repeat, the rules say that a sub-amendment shall be voted on on the fifth day. We are beyond the fifth day, so by implication if not by direct prohibition, it would appear that a second sub-amendment would be out of order.

March 23, 1,970 199 MR. WALTER WEm (Leader of the Opposition)(Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, on the same point of order, may I say that the Rule Book goes on to say that the amendment, plus any other amendments that are on the Order Paper at 9:30 tonight would be voted on. So by implication the Rule Book indicates that it would be perfectly satisfactory to have further amendments · today. MR.

SPEAKER: I wish to thank the honourable members for their comments and may I direct their attention to our Rule 33 (3) which reads as follows: "On the seventh of the eight days if an amendment is under consideration at thirty minutes before the ordinary time, at that time the question can be put on any amendment or amendments then before the House, which seems to imply that there is a possibility of more than just the amendment being before the House at that time. Moved by the Honourable Member for St.

Vital, seconded by the Honourable Member for Gladstone: THAT the motion be further amended by adding thereto BUT that this House further regrets the negative approach that the Government of Manitoba is presenting to the people of Manitoba regarding the extensive development of Northern Manitoba and in particular the Churchill Forest Industries Complex in The Pas which I is to the benefit of all Manitobans. Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Leader · of the Official Opposition. MR. WEm: Mr. Speaker, I asked my colleague the Member for St.

Vital to make this amendment today, to put me in a position of participating once more in the Throne Speech debate because I had lost my rights to speak, as a result of having spoken last week. I did. feel that I wanted to make a few remarks in connection with the Churchill Forest Complex at The Pas. One other thing it does, Mr.

Speaker, is indicate that there are ways and means within the rules of having discussion of matters of importance without moving the adjournment of the House on a matter of urgent public importance; so that our action today has indicated that rather than do it in another way sometimes, sometimes there is an opportunity within the rules to have your opportunity for discussion within the rules and under the Throne Speech, so we've taken this measure today so that we can do that. I think that it's probably time, Mr.

Speaker, that there be a fair review of the known facts about the Churchill Forest Industries and the Province of Manitoba. How well grounded, Mr. Speaker, is the charge that the Province of Manitoba has squandered its resources by giving away 34 thousand square miles of land to Churchill Forest Industries? Mr. Speaker, what are the facts?

The facts are that before any contract was made with Churchill Forest Industries, about a hundred different companies were approached, including every major pulp organization in North America, to do what had never been done before, what no one has ever offered unsolicited to do, to establish a pulp mill in Manitoba, north of Number 53, the 53rd Parallel. If the give-away was so extravagant as some do claim, you'd eJqlect to find a scramble among the operators to take full advantage of it. What was the answer when Manitoba came knocking on their doors?

Something like 97 of the some one hundred pulp mill operators did not even want to discuss the establishment of a pulp mill in northern Manitoba, irrespe~ tive of the inducements offered. The then Premier of Manitoba, and the then Attorney General, made a special trip to the Abitibi Power and Paper Company, because they operated a pulp mill in Manitoba, the one located at Pine Falls, and it was thought that that company, if anyone, would be most knowledgeable about conditions in Manitoba and would most likely be induced to take on the project. Abitibi was not prepared to proceed.

It was grimly amusing to listen to the Premier elect of Manitoba in July of 1969, say on CJOB and I quote: "I wonder if I could just make this point, that here in Manitoba we had for example the Abitibi Company, Manitoba Pulp and Paper and others that were involved in the same area of industrial activity, and they had not been advised, consulted, or even given an option on developing this timber resource near The Pas.

It struck me as rather strange at the time we should want to go to Berne, Switzerland, and bring in a concern from there when we have the technology, and apparently, I am told, one or two paper firms in Canada inter ested enough, but you know they were not let in on it. " Mr. Speaker, while the Premier might not have known any better at that time how mis leading these statements were, it is of tragic concern to me that, after he had learned the facts, that he hasn't seen fit to make amends for the misleading information that he gave to

200 March 23, 1970 (MR. WEIR cont'd) . . . . . the people of Manitoba. It is the build-up of this misleading information that the Premier has contributed to that poisons the public's attitude towards it. The fact remains that only one pulp and paper company in North America was even prepared to discuss the establishment of a pulp mUl in the north of Manitoba irrespective of the induce ments offered. Of the two pulp and paper concerns that were prepared even to discuss it, both were foreign, one being Parson and Whitmore, and the other Monoca, or ChurchUl Forest Industries as it is now known.

Of the two, ChurchUl Forest Industries made the better offer, and in the negotiation that followed the problem became not which company was going to get it, but Mr. Speaker, whether any company would proceed with the project at all. On more than one occasion in the course of the negotiation, the Monoca group, the only group that showed real interest, threatened to walk out of further negotiations unless some of these concessions were met.

In these circumstances a reasonable man would come to the conclusion that the deal offered by Manitoba, irrespective of what it consisted of, was of the minimum required to have a pulp mill project established north of 53 at all. If, at an auction to which a hundred are invited, only one puts in a meaningful bid, and after strenuous negotiations that bid cannot be made more favourable, how can it be said by any reasonable person who believes that the establishment of a pulp mill north of 53 is a good thing, that the government was extravagant?

If we look more closely at it we can see why the North American operator showed no interest at all in establishing a pulp mUl in Northern Manitoba. Of the vast square miles of land that was under contract, of all of these square miles of forest land, much of it consists of lake, of barren rock, muskeg and wasteland. Many square miles consist of dried or dying trees that are not even good enough for tooth picks.

Those scattered areas in which there are any stands at all are so sparse and with trees of such small diameter, that they aren't com parable at all to any timber areas that are at present sustaining an established pulp mill. They are located away from roads, away from established communities in the far northern part of the country, and present more extreme challenges than any established tin:ber area used in North America today.

The province, in the past, because of the unlikelihood of these wooded areas in Northern Manitoba being utilized in a pulp project, had never really made an accurate timber survey of the resources. Any deal for these areas had to be put together with uncertainty as to what was usable wood and what was actually there, and while a minimum sized mUl was prescribed there was no maximum set in the agreement.

The agreement, however, does provide that if after twelve years it was demonstrated that the timber in the classified area is substantially in excess of the requirements of the company, the government may notify the company and request it to increase its productive capacity to such a level as to utilize such excess; and if the company within three years does not increase its productive capacity after such advice the government, and I quote, "may reduce the specified area to that necessary to permanently support the company, or the operating company, to production capacity in Northern Manitoba in such areas, specified area as indicated by the company." The power was clearly reserved by the government that after a reasonable period of time the specified area could be reduced to that which was actually necessarily required to support the operations of the company.

As a matter of fact, in the event there was enough timber to support two mUls, the government after 15 years can arrange for it. Another important fact is that the land, as such, has not been turned over to Churchill Forest Industries. All of that basically was turned over is the preferred cutting rights, subject to the foregoing limitations in the specified area.

The government agreement specifically provides, and I quote, "Neither the company nor the operating company will receive any exclusive rights over the land other than the rights to cut timber on the land contained in this specified agreement, other than those expressly stated in the agreement.

The specified area may be entered into and used for and by all persons, firms and corporations who have a legitimate interest in so doing, to the extent that their use does not prejudice the operations of the company, or the operating company, and are taken pursuant to the agreement." The agreement goes on to provide that notwithstanding a reservation in timber areas specified to the company and the operating company, that the government has the right to use, sell, lease or otherwise dispose of lands in the specified area for townsites, highways, rail ways, parks, summer resorts, mining explorations or operations, petroleum or natural gas explorations, production or transmission electrical power generation and transmission; water control for purposes deemed to be essential for the industrial, mining, agricultural, recrea tional development of the province.

So the granting of rights to CFI are limited to the

March 23, 1970 201 (MR. WEm cont'd) ..... maint~nance of a pulp industry alone, Mr. Speaker, and the full; benefits of that area are reserved for the people of Manitoba. This is particularly important· when we come to the provision of roads. The practice in Manitoba has been that the province wlll build roads for the use of its people, providing the general public can use them.

In para graph 20 of the agreement the government agrees to provide an all-weather public road from Wabowden to Lake Sipiwesk and from Thicket Portage to the vicinity of Lake Slpiwesk, and a public winter truck road from Thicket Portage to PR391, the Simonhouse-Thompson road, in the vicinity of the Paint Lake road and the public winter road from Wabowden to Cross Lake. The agreement specifically provides that all these roads provided by the government shall be deemed dedicated as public highways and fully available to any manber of the public without charge.

When one looks at the map of Northern Manitoba north of 53, you see a wilder ness without roads. The development of roads in that area for use to the general public should not be regarded as an extravagance, Mr. Speaker, but rather as an important contribution, an investment to the development of the interest structure of Northern Manitoba that wlll allow it to achieve its full potential.

The agreement goes on to provide that during the first 12 years the province would provide one-half the construction costs of developing all winter and all-weather or other roadS that the company required, but that the company shall allow any person the free use of these company roads for ordinary travel free of charge, if such use does not harm the company's operations. And it provides that any person requiring the use of company roads in connection v.ith the commercial undertaking shall enter into an agreement with the company in connection with such use.

The government reserves the right to take over any of these roads as a public highway whenever it is in the public interest to do so. The effect of this agreement therefore is to make available to the general public the use of roads throughout the life of the agreement which for the first 12 years only are half paid for by the government and thereafter wholly paid for by the company. What about stumpage rates? The agreement provides that for the first 7 1/2 years the stumpage rates will be 37 1/2 cents per peeled cord.

For the next 7 1/2 years it will be 75 cents per peeled cord, and the stumpage charges after that shall be adjusted annually on the basis of the wholesale price of standard newsprint. The adjustments shall be made by multiply ing the stumpage rate of 75 cents by the percentage of increase in the wholesale price for standard newsprint. For the month of January that year, above the wholesale price for the newsprint for the month of January 1964. For what is the stumpage to be paid for? By and large in Northern Manitoba, prior to the establishment of Churchill Forest Industries, the bulk of the wood, Mr.

Speaker, was not cut at all; it was treated as a barren wasteland. What wood was there, with a few small exceptions, was allowed to go to waste completely unused and no stumpage rate was paid for by anyone. What was once waste now becomes a source of revenue. Any stumpage received at any rate is for the most part more than we have ever received before, and these rates, while graduated, may rise after 7 1/2 years for the life of the agreement to a basis that is fairly comparable to that charged elsewhere in Canada.

While the rates are lower than that charged in the rest of Manitoba, they certainly bear a fair relation to the different kind of pulpwood and the different conditions in Northern Manitoba, despite the fact that only one company was prepared to take on the project on the terms that the government agreed to. The government was stlll concerned that the agreement being negotiated was fair and reasonable in all respects. The government therefore retained experts to consider the agree ment. One of these experts was the Arthur D.

Little Incorporated, a company I think with an unassailably good international reputation. In its report dated February 18, 1966, the company reported on Page 2 of its report - and in this day of open government, if the government wished I presume they could make that report public, make it available- I quote: "We have been asked to evaluate the agreement made between the Government of Manitoba and Churchill Forest Indus tries (Manitoba) Limited that formed the basis of a''- I'll start over at the beginning of the quote, Mr. Speaker, if I may.

"We have been asked to evaluate the agreement made between the Government of Manitoba and Churchill Forest IndUstries that formed the basis of an integrated forest products development in The Pas and the Lake Sipiwesk areas. We find this agreement provides a very equitable basis for this development. On one hand it requires the company to proceed with an orderly development of facilities in the north. These facilities include logging of pulpwood, establishment of a newsprint mlll at The Pas, a sawmill at The Pas, facilities for pulpwood loading at Arnot, facilities for pulpwood handling and shipping at Churchill.

It also

202 March Z3, 1970 (MR. WEm cont'd) .•••• provides for future expansion of the operations, including the pos sible production of pulpwood at The Pas. "On the other hand, the agreement commits the Government of Manitoba to provide certain services: fire protection, low cost stumpage. building sites, to share the cost of a road development program.

We believe the commitments made by the government provide the incentives necessary for obtaining the type of development the north needs, and do not exceed the incentives granted in similar locations elsewhere and will allow the development of forest management plans that will not only maintain the forest resources of the area but will allow both the quantity and the quality of these resources to be improved over the years. 11 The report goes on to say: "The importance of a forest-based industrial development in Northern Manitoba cannot be questioned.

The employment that such a development would pro vide wlll greatly assist in improving the welfare of the local people and will provide much needed access to areas that have not been opened up by mineral development. Probably one of the most important aspects of the development would be the placing of the northern forests under free management. " The foregoing, Mr. Speaker, justifies the government in providing sufficient incentive to do everything necessary to ensure that development occurs and that it will prove successful. This report goes on, and at Page 8, Mr.

Speaker, and I quote: "We believe the memor andum of agreement between the Government of Manitoba and Churchill Forest Industries (Manitoba) Limited is not only fair and equitable to both sides, it is the minimum required for the successful development of the northern forest resources. On one hand the agreement com mits the company to an orderly and workable plan of development for an integrated forest products industry ideally suited to the area of timber.

This development will provide much needed employment for the area and will open up access to large areas presently cut off from those already developed and wlll provide the Forestry Branch with the opportunity to put management plans into effect. "The government, on the other hand, has provided certain important incentives to ensure the success of the development. We have not found that these incentives exceed what was neces sary, or exceed what has been given by a government elsewhere under similiar or comparable conditions. They basically give the company an opportunity to be competitive.

" At Page 12 the report concludes: ''In

summary, we believe that the agreement provides for contributions by the company towards the establishment of a highly desirable forest products development in Northern Manitoba. In order to make it possible for the development to succeed the government has agreed to certain contributions, most of which would be necessary just to maintain the forest. It is also our view that the government contributions do not exceed those normally required under similar conditions.

We recommend the agreement be accepted and the development of the northern forest resources be supported in every possible way. 11 The government in proceeding with this program had the authority of this study and other studies which were procured by the Development Fund. I'm not permitted to go into those, but I can state that they were all favourable and all along the same lines. Here we have an indepen dent, knowledgeable international authority, of I think unimpeachable status, stating that what the government has undertaken to do was reasonable and no more than necessary to make this development feasible.

On what basis do those who make extravagant criticisms about this pro ject base their statements. It is obvious that they don't have personal knowledge of their own which would qualify them to pass any judgment on the project. In addition to this independent opinion of Arthur D. Little, we also have the benefit of the conduct of all the other pulp mills in North America who, when offered the same induce ments as were offered to Churchill, refused even to negotiate.

What stronger verification can there be of the injustice of the charges of extravagance against the Government of Manitoba in entering into the Churchlll deal. We have also heard a great deal about the huge sums of money to be loaned in the north. Let me emphasize the word "loaned", Mr. Speaker. Let me say this, that so far as the Churchill deal is concerned respecting the establishment of a sawmill and pulp mill in Northern Manitoba, the obligation of the government in Manitoba did not exceed the obligation to make a loan to the company in excess of $40, 700, 000.

All of the other projects are projects entered into apart from and in addition to the Churchill Forest Industries with other companies some two or three years later after the Churchill deal was arranged. And may I say, Mr. Speaker, and may I say that none, none of these would have been possible had it not been for the original

March 23, 1970 2&3:.· (MR. WEm cont'd) ..... agreement. While I'm not privy to the facts, I am satisfied that the same careful study was made before the projects were entered into. Jn fact I note that the trusteees authorizing the loan of $32 million to M & P Industrial Mills Limited for a . • . mill at The Pas was registered on September 11, 1969.

While I would assume that the government at that time had no more responsibility for the M & P loan than our government did - and I am not even criticizing them for making it- it was certainly most unfair, I think, to leave the impression that this was part of the agreement in 1966 with Churchill Forest Industries.

The government has access to information which would prove to any reasonable person how unfairly the Churchill Forest Industries program has been criticized, and because they are now the government I believe it was their obligation to come forward and correct the record, a record that they themselves have distorted over the years, and I must say, Mr. Speaker, they had company- they had company in the creation of that distortion. Instead of doing so in the House in this last week we find the government, if anything, aggravating the distortion that previously existed.

I suggest that it is time for us all to be fair. So far as statements made outside the House are concerned, the Churchill Forest Industries apparently have changed their previous position of turning the other cheek and now are reacting with legal action. Anything said of course in the House is privileged, but I would suggest that if members of the Legislature want to continue misrepresentations concerning the Churchill Forest Indus tries that they make their statements outside the House where they are not protected by the cloak of immunity that we have in the House. Better still, Mr.

Speaker, let's stop making Churchill Forest Industries a political foot ball and help it in its struggle to bring worthwhiie industry to the northern part of our province. How ridiculous it is for the government to bring in the report of the Northern Task Force pro claiming the need to bring industry and assistance to the people of the north, and then when the greatest advance that ever has been taken towards that end in the development of the northern complex, they attack it viciously as a give-away program. Mr. Speaker, let's be fair and let's be sensible. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture.

HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture)(Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, I wish to yield to the Honourable Member for . . . HON. JOSEPH P. BOROWSKI (Minister of Transportation)(Thompson)": I would like to ask a question of the Leader if he wouldn't mind. In your speech you indicated the Arthur Little Company made certain statements and recommendations. I was wondering if these recommendations were based on all the information, that is exactly what the government commitment was going to be to the company. MR. WEm: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member has access to those reports and I suggest he check the reports.

MR. BOROWSKI: Mr. Speaker, if he don't want to answer the question you don't have to. I would just like to know - you're saying in this House that Arthur Little made certain state ments. Were these statements based on the facts that you had before you? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I might ask the previous speaker a question. Did I understand him correctly to say that there had been a government commitment that he was aware of for $40 million to this complex? MR. WEm: The original agreement as I recall was $40, 700, 000. 00. MR.

MOLGAT: He, as a previous Minister, was aware of that commitment? MR. WEm: Yes, Mr. Speaker. MR. MOLGAT: The House wasn't. . . • • • . . Continued on next page

204 March 23, 1970 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I have not taken the opportunity to speak on the Throne Speech debate and I want to say that it is a pleasure for me to see you back in your position for another session, and indeed a pleasure to watch the way in which you exercise your responsibility in this Chamber.

I don't recall whether I mentioned this at the first session, but I was somewhat amazed at the capacity which you had in the affairs of the House at the very outset, and I just simply want to say that I am very pleased with the way you are able to handle the affairs of this House and the fairness with which you are doing so. I rise to debate simply because I think one has to, at some point, throw tack some of the arg~ments that have been put, or at least, Mr. Speaker, to set the record straight on certain points that are mentioned, certain questions that were raised.

I want to say that the Honourable Member from st. Vital raised a number just a few minutes ago and I just simply want to deal with those very briefly before I get into the main substance of my remarks. My honourable friend the Member for St. Vital had indicated that he was concerned about whether or not the road program of the present Minister of Transportation is going to be some what northern-i>riented and perhaps neglect the rest of the province, and that he was concerned that the Minister of Transportation was not able to reveal to the House at this stage of the session just what his program is going to be.

I want to point out to the Member for St. Vital that he ought to know that the time tore veal the program of any department is during the introduction of his estimates, and that it was really an unfair criticism on my honourable friend's part to even think or suggest, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister of Transportation should at all be obligated to reveal his progran during the Throne Speech debate. I'm confident, Mr.

Speaker, that the Minister of Transportation is quite capable of handling his department and answering for his department, and I'm not going to dwell at length but I thought it was appropriate to make that one point, that this is not the time for members opposite to expect every department that they should reveal the content of their program. That time will be with us very shortly, starting tomorrow evening, and there will be plenty of opportunity for members opposite to debate at some length the estimates of each department, including the Department of Transportation.

The whole question so far in this debate, Mr. Speaker, has centered aroand what is the Province of Manitoba going to do with respect to municipal taxation. This seems to be the gist of the ccU'ments from the other side and the connotation seems to be, Mr. Speaker,*hatmembers on the government side are somewhat not in keeping with promises and pledges that they made with the electorate some several months ago because they have failed to introduce their blue print relative to municipal taxation for the Provinceof Manitoba in this current session. I want to say, Mr.

Speaker, that again, I'm somewhat surprised by my friends opposite that they are even thinking that they can get away with a suggestion such as they have put, that indeed the Province of Manitoba should have accomplished all the goals that were set out by the New Demo cratic Party in the course of the last election campaign and that we should have done so in the matter of eight or nine months. I think my honourable friends opposite know that they can't be done. I think they know, Mr.

Chairman, that we are quite sincere and that they are having some difficulty in trying to find a way or methodology by which they may attack the government, and really we are involved in a lot of shadow boxing here, which is an exercise perhaps that might keep us awake buy beyond that very little is accomplished. I want to say ~hat we did make a number of commitments to the electorate of Manitobaar.d we intend to keep those commitments, a number of them including the question of relief at municipal tax levels. MR. G. JOHNSTON: You're not going to keep them all, eh? MR. USKIW: I think we are.

I want to point out that, in the area of municipal taxation, members opposite must appreciate that there are great changes to come about in the structure of our municipal f':O~'ernments and it's more appropriate I would guess at this point, that the changes that will take place should be accompanied by a new system of financing, that not necessarily should we start meddling with the whole question of municipal taxation on an ad hoc basis when we are so close to a restructuring of the municipal system of government.

To prove the sincerity of the Government of Manitoba, I think one has to look only back into the Throne Speech to realize that we have stated that there will be no municipal elections in the City of Winnipeg or th~ Metropolitan area this year and that we have really burned our bridges, shall we say, and that we are forcing ourselves to act in such a way that we will have something new for us in a very short period of time. I think members opposite have paid very little recognition to that very .il'lporta:-.t fact co"ltained in the Throne Speech which indicates that

March 23, 1970 (MR. USKIW Cont'd) ..... the Government of Manitoba is indeed going to move ahead and is mak !.i-;g sure that it must, simply on the basis that they are burning some of the bridges so that they can't procrastinateandcan'tgobackwards. I think this is something that is somewhat diff erent than the approach taken by previous administrations for a number of years. My honourable friend from St. Vital talked about, he wished there was some semblance of hope for the property owner.

I want to say to him that the only semblance of hope that the property owner, the home owner, -let's classify this- the homeowner, is the fact that they have a government in power that is very sympathetic to the need for an adjustment in the system of taxation at all levels, including property and that is the greatest semblance of hope that any people, any group of people in Manitoba have today, that they have a government sincerely interested and dedicated to the concept of equity in taxation, whether it be at the municipal level, the income level and so forth, I want to more importantly, Mr.

Speaker, deal with a specific area which I am identified with, and that is the whole area of what is the government's position relative to the current agricultural situation. I want to make so::'.E remarks about comments that were made on the opposite side from the Honourable the House Leader, that is of the Liberal Party, when he indicated that really what we should be doing is taking a long-range viewpoint or long-range development plan for agriculture and that we should pressure the Federal Government into some long-range rationalization. And I think that he's quite right.

I think I have stated this position on a number of occasions, that it is long past due when we have had a plan for agricul ture and rural development in Canada and the onus is indeed upon the governments the provincial governments and the Federal Government to cooperate together to try and achieve this.

I think we have to accept the fact that a large part of the responsibility does lie with the federal authorities but that the provinces should not be content to leave it there, that they should be involved in prodding and promoting and consulting and negotiating with their federal countellJarts to make sure that we arrive at some rationalization at some point.

The Honourable House Leader of the Liberal Party also mentioned that the province should exercise some leadership in the area of diversifying Manitoba's agricultural economy away from wheat, and I think that this is something that we have given leadership to so far. I think my honourable friend ought to appreciate -and I'm sure he does- the fact that Manitoba has made some very significant moves in this direction. We are encouraging more diversifi cation of the crops, field crops; we are encouraging greater intensification in the livestock area; and we have geared up the Department of Agriculture, Mr.

Speaker, in such a way that they are more able to respond to the needs of the situation. I simply want to point out one important area within the Department and that is in the setting up of three committees within the department to respond to the needs of the feedlot industry, the hog enterprise, and the cow - calf enterprise areas where we are placing a great deal of emphasis at the present time. These committees have been challenged to come up with a manual which they, I should say, Mr.

Speaker, are going to distribute to the rural people across the province, a manual on farm management and many other bits and pieces of inform ation, marketing information that are relevant to the respective enterprises. This is just about ready to be launched and it will show that we are really moving as fast as we can to facil- itate the kind of diversification that my honourable friend opposite talked about. · I want to point out what also should be recognized in the Throne Speech, Mr. Speaker, is the importance that we have attached to the whole question of marketing. I think there is a

section in the Throne Speech which mentioned that the Province of Manitoba was going to estab lish a marketing unit within the Department of Agriculture. Again there is going to be a budget ary item in the estimates to show this and it's a step, Mr. Speaker, lo::~.g overdue, and my only wish is that it had been with us for the last ten years and perhaps we wouln 't have had the dilemma facing us that we have at the present time.

It is hoped that this marketing unit is going to be able to brrng back to the farm people of Manitoba, to the industry, the kind of information and promotion that is necessary to keep in time. And this is very important, Mr. Speaker, because things are changing very rapidly throughout the world with respect to markets and agricultural development and we must keep abreast of the changes as they occur, in fact we must know ahead of time when these changes are going to occur.

The whole question of diet changes throughout the world, the whole question of production changes throughout the world are very important and they definitely do have a bearing on what happens to the economy of our farm people in Canada, and indeed in Manitoba.

206 March 23, 1970 (1\<ffi. USKIW Cont'd). The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie has also indicated that in his opinion we criuld probably triple the livestock numbers in Manitoba and not have any depressing effect on the prices, and I'm inclined to agree with him simply because it is a fact that we do not in the Province of Manitoba set the pace in pricing, that it is a North American market, and we are really somewhat insignificant in the total picture and that there probably is a great deal of latitude here without, shall we say, upsetting the applecart.

I want to say that Manitoba's position in the livestock industry dropped significantly in the years 1965 to 1968 simply because, unfortunately, too many of our people got excited about growing too much wheat. And, by the way, they were promoted by members in government departments and by politicians in so doing and I think the chickens are coming home to roost, Mr. Speaker, and we are now forced into very expensive programs of diversification and re-training, if you like, in trying to balance off our rural economy .

I don't have to remind my honourable friends I don't think, I'm sure they all know it, that previous administrations at the Federal Government level and provincial, and even the current administration at the federal level, has given lip service to·the idea of growing more wheat, well as late as about two years ago, and I can only indicate that that has had some very sad effects as is quite obvious across the prairies today. If we had had the kind of marketing re search at the federal level, Mr.

Speaker, that we should have had, I think we should have been warning our people that we can't sit back in the saddle and expect that things are going to come along as they have beensimplybecanseofacoupleofwindfalls in two or three years. The Russian wheat purchase and the Chinese wheat sale were not to be expected to re-occur every year. I think it was presumptuous on the part of any government to even indicate that this could last on an annual basis for some time to come. It's a matter of fact, Mr.

Speaker, that those sales were made because of a deficiency in that part of the world and not because we were the promoters, the salesmen from this side, that really the market came to us, if you like, we didn't really research the market. This is a change that we must effect very soon, Mr. Speaker, if we are going to be meaningful at all in steering the direction of agriculture and rural economy in Canada. We must set up market ing intelligence at federal and provincial levels of government, and this government is certainly prepared to do so and will be reflected in the estimates this year.

The Member for Morris did take some time, Mr. Speaker, to take the government to task for his approach to the farm problem. He mentioned the fact that we missed out of late in mentioning the idea of the family farm concept, and I don't know where he sees the magic. Mr. Speaker, I am not concerned about names, I think this government is quite prepared, and our policy indicates so, that we are indeed interested in supporting the family farm unit of production.

We are also recognizing that there are many areas of uneconomic farm units, which, if they desire, could incorporate lnto corporations or cooperative units of production and we are prepared to broaden the scope to allow this to happen if they so wish. It's a matter of just opening the doors a little wider to assure that those people that want to sustain themselves in agriculture in rural Manitoba have an opportunity to do so at any level, whether it be the individual, the corporate or the cooperative level. But what we do object to, Mr.

Speaker, is the policies which had been in effect for all the years in which my honourable friends opposite were the government, and this policy is being changed, and that is where the government of the day has assisted over a number of years the setting up of giant corporate enterprises into primary production, enterprises which are only using surplus investment capital, if you like, but not necessarily enterprises which are farmer-owned and controlled. And I can give you many examples of that. We have had a long hangover in that particular area since we took over office, Mr.

Speaker, and I can say it has given me a number of headaches. But this is a policy shift that is taking place and we will continue to discourage that kind of development because we don't need to increase the amount of production through the area of vertically integrated operations through the area of investment capital other than farm capital, into an area of production where we have a great deal of under employment and deficiency of income.

I think the social goal of any government with respect to the development of agriculture in Manitoba bas to be the development of rural Manitoba, period, in the most human sense, and that everything we do must be geared in such a way that we utilize more fully those underemployed people that are finding themselves in the rural areas not earning a sufficient income to give them a decent standard of living. These are the policies

:March 23, 1970 (MR. USKIW Cont'd) .... we must adopt, Mr. Speaker, and these are the policies that we are· following at this point. And I want to assure my friends opposite that I will do everything to discourage the further development of vertically integrated operations and the intrusion of the corporate sector into primary production when at the same time I know that we have the vast numbers of people in rural Manitoba that are underemployed. Now what about Manitoba's position relative tot2e current federal program which is known as the wheat inventory reduction program.

I want to outline for the members opposite some of the history as to the development of this program. I want to point out to you that a little while ago I received a phone call from Ottawa asking me to appear or to meet with the Minister in charge of wheat the very next day, and I didn't know what the meeting was all about. All the prairie Ministers were asked to be there - and we were there - and we were told simply what the program is going, to be be.

I was somewhat disappointed, that we didn't have an opportunity to negotiate and develop this program, but indeed we were summoned to Ottawa and we were told that tomorrow we are going to make this proposal and we would hope that you would be most non-political in your analysis of our proposal and perhaps give us your reaction as soon as possible and hopefully, from their point of view, in the positive sense. Now I think we must recall that I had been approached by the news media in Manitoba with respect to what I thought of the program.

These are the things that I did say, and I still say them, and that is that the program, or the idea of bringing into line the relationship between production and market is a good idea. I think we have to work towards the idea of bringing our production much more in line with what we think we can sell, whether it;'s at the domestic or the export level, and that any program to try to achieve that end has to be looked at very carefully. The goal itself is a good one.

As to the mechanics of the goal, I think I have to say that at that time I would have not been at all in a position to make a comment, and I didn't make a comment on the mechanics of how to :J.rrive at that goal and whether or not I agreed with the mechanics that were being suggested by the program. I did agree to do this much, and that is to go back to Manitoba, evaluate our provincial position as to how it would be affect ed by the new program, and that I would be making further responses to the Federal Govern ment. And this we are currently doing, Mr. Speaker.

I think I have to say that the federal people appeared quite sincere when·we met with them. They said that this is Step No. 1 and that there will be other measures introduced to deal with the agricultural problem, but this is Step.No. 1 and we want you to bear with us until we have time to further develop other measures. And the request was that this not be come a political thing, that indeed the problems in agriculture are such that there is really little room to politick on this issue. And I have to take this very seriously, Mr. Speaker.

I don't think that it's right for us to respond in the most political way when a problem of some magnitude is before us and where there are proposals to deal with it. I think the most respon sible approach any government can use is one of analysis, very thorough analysis, and response to follow after that analysis is complete.

I want to say to you that I have made submissions since that meeting explaining to the Government of Canada that I had some concerns about their program but these were very initial reactions, and that until I had a complete analysis I am not in a position to comment whether or not this program is acceptable to the Province of Manitoba in its entirety.

And I want to say that it's hopeful that I will have Manitoba's analysis complete sometime this week and that we will be making a further submission, and I have indicated this to the Government of Canada, that we will be making a more complete submissjon in response to their proposal. I tend to suggest, and I did suggest in one of the communiques that on the surface of things it looks to me like the Government of Canada really should be putting in a lot more money into the program if it's going to succeed.

This is my first reaction based on very limited analysis, and! think after this week we'll be in a much better position to know more fully what this means for Manitoba in terms of dollars and cents, what it means to the average farmer and what it means to certain areas of the province. I have concerns. I know that there are positive sides to the program as well. The area of incentives to get land into forage, for example, falls very much h• ~ine with Manitoba's urge to diversify, and that particular area really is complementary to Manitoba's push in that direction.

But notwithstanding some of the plusses, there are some grave concerns and we will be making these known to the federal authorities very very shortly. I would hope that honourable members opposite do not use the whole program as outlined by the Federal

208 March 23, 1970 (MR. USKIW Cont'd) ....

Government as another vehicle in which to politick, but that rather they become very concerned indeed with whether or not they can propose suggestions to the federal people to improve on something already started so that it is indeed acceptable to the people of the prairies and indeed the people of Manitoba, and that hopefully if we get this kind of political involvement that we will do something without politics for a change, something that will improve the well-being of our rural people and in particular during this time of crisis and transition which we are facing at this moment.

I would urge my· friends opposite to take that kind of a positive approach and let's not knock something because it's politically good to do so. I think I have many reservations about the proposal but I am willing to listen, and I am willing to listen to what Step. No. 2 might be. I'm also urging that the Task Force Recommendations on Agriculture be revealed very soon so that we can judge the total picture in the proper context, so that we know what the blueprint for Agriculture really is.

And I have to admit at this stage of the game I don't know, I don't know because they have not seen fit at the federal level at this stage to reveal to anyone the contents of the Task Force Recommendations on Agriculture . And I have been pushing them on this issue for some time.

They have the report; the only reason why we couldn't have it some months ago was because it had to be translated, but I'm sure that it has been translated some time ago and I would only urge and wish that the Federal Government would reveal to the provinces, and to Canada as a whole, what is in that report, because I have reason to believe there are very significant recommendations as a basis for the commercial development of agriculture in Canada and also as a basis for the social development for rural areas of Canada.

We are looking forward as a government of Manitoba, Mr 0 Speaker, very much towards the ojlening of that particular door to see just where we fit in in this whole business of rationalizing agriculture and rural development in its true context, commercial and the social problems that lie therein. I want to say again, Mr. Speaker, that I would hope that we do arrive at a program that is going to indeed deal with the current crisis, but at the same time be a start towards the development of long-range programming whereby we can chart a course in agriculture that everyone can urde~stand. Thank you very much, Mr.

Speaker 0 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur 0 MR. WATT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, first in making a few comments on the debate on the Throne Speech, I would like to associate myself with other members who have through courtesy and tradition offered you their congratulations. I would like to say that I congratulate you on your physical appearance, Mr.

Speaker, and I'm sure that the mental tur moil which you must -- or the struggle that you have to control the mental turmoil which must, I think, come in divorcing yourself from the Eocialist party that you were once associated with and which you have demonstrated in this House through the early part of this Session that you are getting along pretty well, particularly I think in your understanding of the rules and the corrections that you have made, some cases to this side of the House, but lfLhink for the most part on that side of the House where they don't really seem to understand what the rules of the House are all about, and I refer particularly to the Honourable the Leader of the House who seems to be having quite a time with his Rule Book over there and to get it across to this side so that we understand him.

I would like to congratulate too, Mr. Speaker, the mover and seconder of the Throne Speech. They did a very good job and I compliment them on their contribution. I think it's particularly fitting, Mr.

Speaker, that the Honourable Member from The Pas was chosen to to move the motion on the speech, particularly coming from that great northern constituency that is seeing the greatest development in the north that the Province of Manitoba has ever seen in any particular area 0 I want to deal particularly with agriculture, particularly after the speech from my honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture across here and I must say, Mr.

Speaker, after reading the Throne Speech and seeing nothing in it but the Tory legislation that was prepared for him before I left the office and placed on his desk, that I found nothing more in his speech today. --(interjection)-- If the Honourable Member for St. Boniface wants to make a speech now, he can get up and start. MR. DESJARDINS: Would you want me to repeat it? You were great .... MR. WATT: I would cede the floor to the honourable member if he wants to get up and make a speech from his .socialist bench over there, Mr. Speaker.

March 23, 1970 (MR. WATT Cont'd). Mr. Speaker, I want to deal first, I think, with the items that were mentioned in the Throne Speech that related to agriculture, and as I said before it really is just a carrying forward or additional policies actually that have been established by the Tory prior government. I want to talk first for a few minutes just about the new Agricultural Credit Program, and to say that I was interested to see in the Throne Speech that the plan had been fully utilized.l'm at a loss, Mr.

Speaker, to understand that statement in the Throne Speech, because to my knowledge - and I could be wrong of course, I have been on occasions before and I've admitted it- but, to my knowledge, I'm not aware of any advantage to any of the farmers in the Province of Manitoba up to this point, and I believe that an Order for Return went in today to find out just to what extent the Fund has been utilized. When I refer to the Fund, I am talking about the $6 · million that the First Minister announced in Quebec would be immediately put into the agricultural economy of this province.

That statement was made during the first session of theN .D.P. government last fall, Mr. Speaker. The announcement was made to the farmers of Quebec that the farmers of Manitoba would immediately have the benefit of an injection of $6 million, and I'm curious, Mr. Speaker, to know exactly where the $6 million went in the province and when it did apply directly to agriculture.

There is mention of veterinary clinics, and again as I said at the outset of my remarks~ this I believe is a program that was pretty well lined up when I left the office, and I think that by and large it looked as if it may have some advantage to the agricultural situation in the province insofar as veterinary service is concerned. No. 3, I believe on the list in the Throne Speech, referred to hail insurance, and I pre sume, Mr. Speaker, that this will be some form of a hail insurance rider that will be attached through our present Crop Insurance policy.

I'm assuming that, and it will be interesting to note when the legislation comes forward, Mr. Speaker, to what extent the Federal Government will be involved insofar as underwriting is concerned, ;:;sofar as their share of the cost of such a rider wilT be related to the situation that we have of the present Crop Insurance plan and the Federal Government involvement. However, I wait, Mr. Speaker, for any further comments until we see what the program will be.

The Minister has mentioned through the Throne Speech that there will be legislation which will provide, I believe it says technical and financial assistance to municipalities in the area of natural resources conservation. And again I say of course I anticipate in any way that this will be legislation that I had prepared to bring before the House before the House was dissolved in the Session of 1969. I mention these two things that are mentioned in the Throne Speech, Mr.

Speaker, simply because they happen to be Tory legislation that was, I believe, good legislation, provided for the Minister by my department at that time and laid before him on his desk. But I want to speak, Mr. Speaker, for a few minutes on what the Minister has done a pretty good job of evading, and actually that is our current problem right now with our grain surpluses in the Province of Manitoba. I note with interest, Mr. Speaker, that the govern ment of the day through the Minister of Agriculture, have agreed with the Federal Government policy. And I want to say to the Honourable Minister, Mr.

Speaker, that he is the only farmer in the Province of Manitoba that I know of that does agree with the Federal Government policy. He has established that this is Step No. 1 in a program to reduce the production of wheat and that we await now to see what Step No. 2 will be. Now I want to ask, Mr. Speaker, now of the Minister and of the Federal Government, just what is Step No. 1. Just quote me Step No. 1 and just exactly how much money will it --(Interjection) --No, you can ask the question .... MR. USKIW: Did my honourable friend ask a question? MR. WATT: I need all the time I've got.

I want to say to the Minister, does he know, out of the plan, how much of the proposed $140 million will go into the agricultural industry in the Province of Manitoba? I would like to have heard him give us an example today of a ·farmer in the Province of Manitoba, exactly what financial relief he will get out of this program. I have yet, Mr. Speaker, to find one farmer in this province that agrees with this program. MR. USKIW: Would my honourable friend submit to a question, Mr. Speaker? MR. WATT: I listened to the Honourable Minister while he was speaking. I want to go back a few years, Mr.

Speaker, when we had a similar program established by the Government of Ottawa to reduce t::..o. production of wheat, and at that time as I recall - and I was farming at that time and I had on my farm at that time what I thought was an insurmountable glut of wheat

210 March 23, 1970 (MR. WATT Cont'd) ...... which disappeared within a very few years, but that's beside the point -at that time the indemnities, or whatever you'd like to call it, paid to the farmer on an acreage base was $4.00 per acre.

The question that I ask the Federal Government now, and I would like to bear the Minister say something about this, is does he agree and does the Federal Government agree that if it was justifiable to pay $4.00 an acre in 1942 or '43 is there a justification for paying six now, because I would say that the cost of production in agricultural Canada now has tripled if not more, and I say that on the same basis if this is going to bring any relief to the economy of our western agriculture that the $6. 00 per acre is negligible .

However, it is not so much the $6.00 an acre that I'm concerned about, it's the strings thlit are attached. We have a program, and I have not heard anyone really clearly explain exactly how it will work, !n:Jluding the Minister of Agriculture who has been discussing Step No. 1 with the Federal Government and I have not heard him or anyone else explain clearly exactly how it will work but I do know-- (Interjection) -- that's right, it doesn't affect the potato growers.

But I do know this, that before you can qualify to become a rec!J>ient in this program that you must summerfallow and you must grow sunflowers; you must summerfallow and you must go for grass; you must summerfallow and you must go for rape or get it in the neck. These are the strings that are attached, Mr. Speaker, that we are not aware of and that I think that our Minister should be because he has access to the government offices in Ottawa.

I had hoped before now that we would have heard him stand up and forget all about politics -.they'd forget all about politics which he has pointed out and I agree with him on this - forget about politics and say "I don't believe the program is any damn good," exactly the way that Thatcher did in Saskatchewan, forgetting all about politics. But I think, Mr. Speaker, there is politics involved here. I think, Mr. Speaker, it is quite evident that when this government goes to Ottawa that they seem to be quite happy with anything that Mr. Trudeau has to offer them.

So they've got Step No.1 now and now they're waiting for Step No.2 as far as agriculture is concerned. Well, Mr. Speaker, I don't suppose that there is much use in dwelling too long on this situation with this government because I don't believe that the Minister has got any intentions of going to Ottawa and demanding that there be changes in this program. The Minister just finished telling us that he's already set up three committees to look into the situation insofar as agriculture is concerned.

That is what we heard at the last session, the session last fall, that a committee had been set up to look into the situation. Well I want to say, Mr. Speaker, that the Department of Agriculture in the Province of Manitoba, the personnel of the Depart ment of Agriculture know very well what the situation is without setting up committees and I want to say also to him that there isn't a farmer in the Province of Manitoba that doesn't know what the situation is without setting up committees.

What we want here is some action; we want some direct action, some direct contacts with Ottawa to be heard as they are being heard by the Liberals up in Saskatchewan, and it's not very often, Mr. Speaker, that I've got too much good to say about the Liberals, but I want to say to you right now that Thatcher has certainly taken his position up there ~s the Premier of the Province and as Minister of Agriculture. So Mr.

Speaker -- (injection) -- I wouldn't say that the honourable member up there should really make ar.y reference to Bennett at all because Bennett really set the people up there straight on what was happening down here in Manitoba, and they spoke clear and loud. Well, Mr. Speaker, I think that that's all I have to say on this subject at the moment, except for one thing, Mr.

Speaker, that I don't think that anyone should stand up in the House and criticize without they have some constructive alternative to offer, and I have never heard that from that side of the House when they were over here, all the ten years that I sat over there; never at any time. I've heard criticsm and criticism and criticism for years and years, and when they got over to that side of the House, what did they say at the last session? "You couldn't expect us to bring in any policies right now, we haven't had time; wait until the next session." We'

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-2-10
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 2nd hansardpdf 10.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	3bc0c6fe1dc47bdc4d163943bd15df7fcb7349a5

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