VOL. 3 PRELil'1INARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSE.,.~IBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. MONDAY, APRIL 13, 1981 NO. 30 . - ,,

A.EJril l3, 1981 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Tape No. 1173 EL - l Order, please~ I would like to welcome to the Galleries the newly elected member for Bellevue district who is sitting in the Gqlleries today. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. SPE.Z\.KER: I would also like to draw the att- ention 0f hon. members to the portrait now hanging on my right, of my predecessor. SOME HON. HE~!BERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The portrait is that of my pre- decessor and former Speaker, the hon.

Gerald Ottenheimer,who served this House as Speaker from 1975 to 1979 and who was the thirtieth Speaker to have served the Newfoundland ~eg­ islature since our first Speaker, Speaker Garland in 1833. and was the fifth Speaker to have served in the Newfoundland House of Assembly since Confederation. He served the House, I believe in that capacity,extremely well and had the ~espect of the House and , indeed had a great deal of respect amongs~ his peers throughout Canada and throughout the C8mmonwealth.

He has also been of great assistance to me personally, and I \•i'Ould like to thank him for that at this point in time and as one particular member of this House so frequently says, the hon. Mr. Ottenheimer now hangs where he so rightly deserves to be hung in this House. SOME HON. MEtiJBERS: SOME 20N. CIJE.iY!BERS: Oh, oh! Hear, hear! 3235

April 13, 1981 Tape No. 1173 EL - 2 STATEI'IENTS BY MINISTERS MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. MORGAN: The bon. the Ml~ister of Fisheries. Mr . Speaker, following the success of last season ' s initiatives to stabilize lobster prices pairl to Newfoundland fishermen, I took certain steps thi.s past year to ensure that condici.ons in t:1e1obster. fishe!:"y will continue to improve during the coming lobster season .

I now wish to infor~ this House that r have n:ec with officials c;>f t:he Fisher:ren's Union-in fact a series oi'. rreetings- and ~t ~;eyhave informed me that they have negotiated an agreement with a major buyer concerning a minimum price for lobster to be paid to =ishermen this year. That m1.nimum t=~rice will be S2.05 9er pound.

In accordance with some of che findings of the previously tablei report,.. in fact it was tabled last Friday in the House -oy the Fishing Industry Advisory Board, a report on ~ricing and ~3rketing in the Newfoundland Lobscer Industry, I am confident that prices paid to our fish­ ermen during the coming season will reflect fair market values. However, in order to ensure that this is indeed the case, I have also instructed the Fishing Industry Advisory Board to monitor the market situation and lobster prices throughout the season and to provide me with a · . .,eekly record of actual 3236

April 13, 1981 Tape No. ll 7 4 D~7 - l MR. J. MORGAN: lobster prices being ~aid by various buyers throughout the Province. If a review of the accumulating data indicates that mark-ups are excessive, mark-ups by the buyers,or that fishermen are not given the benefit of favour­ able market conditions, I will not hestitate, Mr. Speaker, as minister to take appropriate action. The action, of course, will be through the Fishing Industry Advisory 3oard which has certain powers given co it by the House o f Assembly.

So in this connection I wish to inform the House that my department has takP.n an i~porta~- step by issuing notices to all holders of Shel:fish SuyeL~ ' Licenses around the Province for 1981 Suy~rs· licenses. In other \vords, the 1981 license will be a conditional ~ne.and that the following conditions will be applied to all the buy eL~'licenses around the Province as licenses to buy lobsters and shellfish: ~umber one, the minimum price paid to fisherm e n will be as negotiated by the Newfoundland Fishermen. Food and Allied ~~orkers Union. In this case, $2.05 per pound.

And number two, the fishermen are to be paid based upon the quantity accepted and receipted, in other words, "no ;l'ieigh-backs". \~hen a fisherman sells his lobsters he will get paid for the amount received at the receipt of the shipment and to the buyer. This second c~ndi­ tion is intended to remedy a situation whereby fishermen often had to accept reduction in payment because of alleged losses in transit or because of culling. And ·,ve belie•1e that this" no '.veigh­ back·condition will put an end to che many potential causes for dissatisfaction or abuse.

Another im~ortant step to improve the marketing of ~obsters concerns the recognition now of the 1qestern European market . .:,.nd t~at is becoming a fairly major lucrative market for Canadian lobsters. So in order to provide Newfoundland firms with up-to-date marketing assistance I have asked the Fishing Industry Advisory Board to investigate and to prepare a detai~ed report on European 3237

.. .Z\pril 13, 1981 Tape No. 1175 NH - 1 HR. HOLLETT: pounds. I think, however, Hr. Speaker, that it is fair to say that there are a lot of buyers in this Province who could find difficulty in meeting that price. I would like to complimen~ the minister in saying that he has certain stipulations and that the minimum price will be as negotiated by the union. And certainly "no weigh-back''is something that fishermen in this Province have been looking for, not only in lobsters but a lot of other species.

I think also,though; che minister should have put in there as number three, that the buyers who did not meet this minimum price their 1982 licence would be withheld. The minister does not mind doing it elsewhere and nrobablv in this case he should follow that same lead. MR. FLIGHT: Hear, hear: HR. HOLLETT: In relation to the European markets, Mr. Speaker, I would like to say that certain companies in this Provir1ce have already gained limited entrance to this market and I would suggest that our Fishing Industry Advisory 3oard,

whereas it· is quite competent and, in my opinion if it '.Vas gi1ren a wider range could do a much better job, the information would probably be too little and too late to readily affect this season. But certainly I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that iL should be started now with a view to greatly improving our export by air to Europe and also other lobster pacts. Once again, Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate the union and I wish all the lobster fishermen in the Province well this coming season . SOME HON. MEHBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER (Simms) I would also like to ask hon. members to join me in welcoming today to the galleries a group of twenty­ nine students and their three people accompanying them from 3239

April 13, 1981 Tape No. 1175 NH - 2 ~R. SPEAKER (Simms) : St. Augustine's High School in Plum Point, from the district o£ St. Barbe. We hope they ~njoy the ir visit. S0~1E RON. MEl-tBERS: MR . SPEAKER: MR. SPEAKER: MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: MR. STIRLING: Hear, hea:r! Further statements? 000 The han. Leader of the Oppositio n. A point of order before questio ns, A point of order. r.t has just been brought to my attention the cradition,you asked for permission to allow TV coverage of the budget .

Ne cannot reporc on •.Yhat that in keeping with happened excepc co say because of the past press comments , that chat request was ~oc wichheld by somebod y from our s1de. I would just like co ~alee c~at poinc clear. Sot-1E HON. MEMBERS: '1R. SPEAKER: Oh , oh! Order, please! Order, please! I do not really believe ~~at that is a poinc of order. A point of order should be raised if there is a breach of the rules or procedures used in the House. That is not really a point oe order. The press gallery, ! might just add , have already been info rmed of the decision of the House. :1R.

NEARY: As long as they know. 3240 ..... .

Agril 13, 1981 NR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR . STIRLING : !!'ape No . 1175 NM - 3 . 000 The hon . Leader of the Opp osition . Another point of o .rder, Mr . Speaker . I would just like to give notice that '"e are not prepared to discuss that kind of thing in private which is r.ot recorded any fur thez . I respect the Speaker's ruling t:J~at Lt. had to be done that 111ay this year . I jus1: want co give notice co c.he House that we think that that is c.oo imporcanc an issue and that He did not \o~ithhold pezmission this year and that I do respect the Speaker's ruling . MR. ~Lli.RSHALL : To that point. oi orde,r . ~tR .

SPEAKER: President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: To the poi~c of order, the hon. This is an 3241

April 13,1981 Tape No. 1176 AR-1 MR. Ml\RSHALL: abject der,ogation of the Speaker's rights and an ignorance of the rules of this House of Assembly. AN RON .MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR.MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman got up and because he wanted to inject something that he thought relevant into the proceedings of this House,he usurped the time of this House and apart from the normal Orders of the Day. AN HON.MEMBER: MR.SPEAKER (Simms): (Inaudible) Order, please! MR.MARSRALL: Your Honour gave a ruling on the matter and the hon. Leader of the Opposition - AN HON .MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR.SPEAKER: ~!R.

MARSHALL: Order, please! The han. the Lead~r of the Opposition, when he occupies the position which he occupies in this House, should know better. Your Honour having made a rulinq the han. the Leader of the Opposition then . in almost derogation of Your Honour's ruling and authority gets up and persists" in hi3 pursuit,in effect,of interfering wit the rules of this House and infringing on the rights of all hon. members. Y1R.SPEAKER: To the point of order. May I say again that there is no point of order. Hon. members have taken an opportunity to express or to give some explanation or some point or another.

The procedure that has been followed is that which has been followed in this House for as long as I am aware , and certainly since I have been the Speaker. and I will continue to use that procedure until I am told otherwise by the House itself. There is no point of order. 3242 ~ . r.

April l3, 1981 Tape No. 1176 AH-2 · ORAL QUESTIONS . HR.SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. member for LaPoile yields for the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.STIRLING: I have a question for the Premier, Mr. Speaker. Could the Premier t~ll this House why it is that he refuses to allow TV coverage of either the sitting of the House or the recording of the Budget Speech? '·!R.SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: ~r. Speaker, we believe that the Budget Speech should be covered live by the television media in this Province. MR.STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER: MR.STIRLING: em .SPEAKER: MR.STI:S.LING: Mr. Speaker.

A supplementary? A supplementary. Yes. The ~on. Leader of the Opposition. Could the Premier please advise the House why he refused the TV and ~adio people to televise the whole thing and then pick out excerpts which they would like to have on the news? Would he explain why he is prepared to give permission for live coverage and not permission for coverage in total but with some editing by the news media? l1R.SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PRE!1IER PECKFORD: We believe, Mr.

Speaker, that the people of Newfoundland and Labrador have the right to hear all of the Budget Speech, that a.,.nual, historic document, all of the Budget Speech because we believe the people of Newfoundland <,vould like to hear and see all of the Budget Speech a.nd not parts of it which have been edited by other than people in this hon. House. SOt•1E '-ION. MEt.ffiERS : 'lear, hear! viR. STIRLDi'G: A supplementary. ;.~R. SPEAKER: A suoplementary. The hon. Leader of the Opposition . 3243

.'\pril 1311981 Tape No. 1176 AH-3 MR. STIRLI~TG: The Premier and I are certainly in agree~ent on that 1 Mr. Speaker I ·but would he extend that agreement now to say that the people of the Province should have the right to hear everything that happens in this House? TV and radio. 3 2 ~ 4 . .

April 13, 1981 Tape 1177 EC - 1 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. STIRLING : And would he now by his comments give permission as of today that there will be live coverage of all sittings of the House including the Budget Speech? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: That is a consideration that the government has looked at from time to time and we are willing to look at it again.

It is a costly proposition and it might take a mile of pavement away from some ~ember opposite but no doubt they would not mind that, they would go along with seeing some reductions there to allo<t; chat. 3ut we are willing to consider that idea and have considered it in the past, but it is a costly operation and therefore we need to look at all aspects of the cost of it and other aspects of it which are important. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: MR . STIRLING: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Opposition. c1R. STIRLING: The hon. the member for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker. I will yield. The hon. the Leader of the Mr.

Speaker, would the Premier now be prepared to tell us when he is prepared to make a decision on that matter? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Very soon, Mr. Speaker, very, very soon. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. ?:1R. STIRLI NG: ,lt[r. Speake r, s i nc e we are d e a ling with . paving, since we are de a li ng wich t he re f orm- looking approach of the government and ~ he honest y and 3245

April l3, 1981 1-!R. STIRLING: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. STIRLING: Tape 1177 integrity Hear, hear! EC - 2 - and the freedom that every Newfoundlander and Labradorian has, and the equality that every Newfoundlander ·and Labradorian has, would the Premier indicate what was the - now maybe first of all I shquld get him to indicate whether or not he recognizes this letter ~.,rhich was put out under the letterhead of the Premier and signed 'Brian Peckford', dated April 8th, addressed "Dear Voter, My challenge to you" and delivered to the voters in Bellevue. Mr. Speaker? SOME nON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms ) MR.

STIRLING: Is this authentic or is it a f~rgery, Oh, oh! Order, please! Mr. Speaker, I will table the letter. In case he has not seen it, I will table it with enough copies for everybody, because I am sure members on both sides of the House •ll"ould like to see a copy of the letter. SOME !ION. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! ~1R. SPEAKER: Order, please! I believe it would be pertinent. at least if I were to quote from Beauchesne several references that I have been thinking about since this matter was made public a fe1.,r days ago.

I refer to Beauchesne, paragraph 357, citation 171 on page 129, •..,rhich says, "In putting a question a member must confine himself to the narrowest limits. In making a question, observations which might lead to debate cannot be regarded as coming within the proper limits of a question." ?urther, on page 130,

section (dd): "A question must not deal with matters not officially connected with Government or ?a.rliament, or <,.,rhich are of a private nature." i'.nd furt~er, en page 132, it says, "A brief question seeking information about an important matter of some urgency which falls 3246 ..........

April 13, 1981 Tape 1177 EC - 3 MR . SPEAKER (Simms): \•ithin the administFative · responsibility of the government or of the ~pecific :1inister to whom it is addressed" would be "in order". Finally,

section 10: "A question ought not to refer to a statement made outside the House by a Minister." Now, in all of these references and citations, the Chair 's concern is that in ma~ters of this nature ,whlch are matters that have oc;: .... ::red outside the House in a political election campaign are not matters which the Chair, or at least the Rouse, should even have j urisdict ion under, but the Chair should certainly not be put into the position of having to determine what items or what matters should be allowed in an election campaign . for that reas on and for the reason of the references 32~7

April l3, 1981 Tape No. 1178 so - l MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : that I have quoted in Beauchesne, I would rule that that question is not in order at this time. MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKtR: of the Council . MR. ~1ARS HALL : A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order, the han. President Whilst Your Honour was giving his ruling I heard the han. member for Eagle River (t1r. Hiscock) indicate- -ne used words like partiality or impartiality with respect to . presumably . the import of the words that were being used by the hon. Speaker. Now, Mr.

Speaker, it is completely out of order for any member of this House to indicate in any way or to suggest in any way that the ruling of this hon.House, Your Honour's or anybody's ruling who sits in the Chair, is partial or impartial. So I would draw this to the attention of Your Honour, indicate that it was distinctly said by the hon. member for Eagle River and indicate also as well, that this calls for the prompt retraction and apology co Your Honour for such an insinuation of any type of this nature. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. HODDER: To the point of order, ~!r. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: To the point of order, the han. member for Port au Port. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. r1EMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I am sitting here on this side of the House , I heard no such comment or reflection on the Speaker's - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! Y!R. HODDER: ~r. Speaker, I hear many comments from the other side that I would rather not hear, particularly from the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan). But, Mr. Speaker, there is no point of order here, ~he hon. the House Leader 3 2 1 ! 8

April l3, 1981 Tape No. 1178 SD - 2 MR. HODDER: (Mr. Marshall) opposite is just trying to spend some time wasting the time of the House and the time of the Opposition in their Question Period. MR. NEARY: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER (Simms) : member for LaPoile. MR. !'JEARY: To the point of order, the hon. Mr. Speaker, I was sitting near my colleague and I did hear what my colleague said. He was looking at the Premier and questioning the Premier's impartiality and honesty - AN FION. ME~1BER: That is right. MR.

NEARY: - the gentleman who is going around with an honest government, I heard my hon. friend say. I am sure Your Honour will want to consult with Hansard before making a ruling but the remarks were directed across the House not at Your Honour. My hon. colleague had no more intention than I have at this moment of insulting the Chair or questioning the Chair, the rights of the Chair. SOME HON. t<IEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my hon. colleague was questioning the Premier and not Your Honour. And I would submit that there is no point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. MARSHALL: MR.

SPEAKER: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. A final submission to the point of order, the hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARS HALL : Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) is gifted, he is a very gifted individual but I did not realize that he was gifted with ESP - extra sensory preception. I heard, Mr. Speaker, and it was distinct in this House that the hon. member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) indicated and made a statement to the effect that in as far as any import of it can be - SOME HON. MEI'lBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 3249 r.

April l3, 1981 MR. MARSHALL: of the Chair. SOME HON. t-!EMBERS : NR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. MARSHALL: Tape No. 1178 so - 3 - is that he questioned the partiality Oh, oh. Order, please. Now, Mr. Speaker, you know, this House cannot exist"where the partiality ot the Chair has been questioned. 3250

April 13, 1981 Tape No. 1179 EL - l MR. MARSHALL: The han. member for Eagle River (E. Hiscock) had used these statements when Your Honour was speaking, and it is completely, by the way, Mr. Speaker, out of order; for any member of this House when Your Honour is speak- ing, apart from anything else and I think that the hon. member far Raale River could well - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (S~rnms): MR. MARSHALL: Oh. oh! Order, please! - resolve the situation by re- tracting the words and apologizing to Your Honour with what amounts to not only a gross insult to Your Honour but to this hon. House. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Well, to the point of order, quite frankly the Chair did not hear any comments made so I am at a loss to really rule whether there is a point of order or not. I have to say that there is not at this point in time. However, I will check Hansard and if I find that there were any remarks of that nature or reflections on the Chair,then obviously the ~rs will have to be told about it. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Yes, in response to your comments, I do not know whether you have made a ruling or not.

At this stage I am trying to find out whether or not the matter is of interest to this House. What I am talking about and asking the question ·of the Premier, is to find out •tihether or not the Premier was writing on behalf of the Cabinet or whether he was writing on behalf of the government or on behalf of a political party. I have made no reference to a political party. I was, at this stage, just trying to find out if in fact. this was a ?ieee of correspondence from the Premier. MR. SPEAKER: I must tell the han. the Leader of the Opposition that mow it appears as if he is debating the ruling by the Chair.

The Chair has given a ruling. The question is not 3251 r.·

April 13, 1981 Tape No. 1179 EL - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): permitted during Question Period, and the rulings by the Chair are covered by the Standing Orders 3l(

F) wnich I would draw to the member's attention. Any further questions? The hon. the Leader of the Opp- osition. MR. STIRLING: I have a question for the Premier. Would the Premier explain to the-House the basis under which there can be a letter written by the Premier with the Premier's signature which would not be of concern to this House of Assembly? Under what circumstances would the Premier <Nrite that kind of a letter? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the PrernieF. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I can understand why the Leader of the Opposition is upset today.

I mean, if I were a leader of a political party and there was a by-election called and I lost as leader as badly as the Leader of the Opposition - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: PREM~ER PECKFORD: SOME HON. 11EMBERS ~: Oh, oh! Order, please! - lost, I would be upset too. Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: For example, Mr. Speaker, just in a few idle moments I had yesterday, I thought to myself, what would happen if the Bellevue election results were applied along the same lines for the other Liberal districts in the Province? And you know something, Mr.

Speaker;'· •.vha t I carne up with,- there would only be three Liberal districts left. SOME HON. MEMBERS: ,'1R . SPEAKER: MR. F . ROw~ : MR. SPEAKER: de Verde. MR. HANCOCK: Hear, hear! Order, please! Mr. Speaker. A point of order. The hon. member for Trinitv-Bay Look at the (inaudible) the last time. 3252 .....

April 13, l:981 Tape No . 1179 EL - 3 MR . SPEAKER (Mr . Simms) : Order , please! A point of order . MR . F . ROWE : Mr . Speaker just a few moments ago said that the Leader of the Opposition was out of order. Sot-!E HON. ~!EHBERS: Oh, oh! MR . F. RO\'ffi: Mr. Speaker, I can \,•ait till ~he cows come home on chis one. ~our Honour said a few moments ago that the Leader of the Opposition was out of order referring to a transcr ipt or a letter that might not ha ve had anything to do with this hon . House. Now, the Premier is launching into a campaign speech and the campaign is over and I would suggest, Mr. Speaker - 32 53

April l3, 1981 Tape No. 1180 DW - 1 MR. STIRLING: MR. F. ROWE: Yes, it is quite over- that the Premier is completely out of order by going over what happened in the Bellevue election, talking about the sta­ tistics of that particular election. We are quite happy to talk about the statistics of that election if he wants to. MR . W. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : President of the Council. MR. W. MARSHALL: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. To the point of order, the hon. tHe Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Premier and the government we apologize to the hon. member for having his rose wilt so soon.

SOME HON.~MBERS: SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR. lv • H..il,.RSHALL: Oh, oh! Hear, hear! The wilted rose. In answer to his point of order, Mr. Speaker, if you ask a question that is out of order and you get a response that is out of order and it hurts - too bad, you will have to pick up your marbles and go home, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, there is no point of order 1 it is a difference of opinion. I might say, the hon. Leader of the Opposition's (Mr. Stirling) question that he put was in order, the final question that he put , because he asked under what conditions would the Premier send a letter.

It did not refer to that specific letter.The Premier answered it. The hon. member may not be satisfied with the answer. If that is the case,there is another pro­ cedure he can follow.But there is no point of order. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. 3254

April 13, 1981 Tape No. · 1180 DW - 2 MR. L. STIRLING: M~. Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier another question. Does the Premier, on be­ half of the government - of this Province, condone the pra­ ctice of having ministers deliver messages which indicate an action that should be taken by a voter in a by-election? MR. SPEAKER(Sinuns) : The hon the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, you know, if the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.Stirling) continues to be so upset, I will have to release the survey that I did yester­ day. I mean, as I indicated to the hon.

Leaaer of the Opposition in an answer to a previous question, if he is so upset with the results of Bellevue - SOME RON. MEMBERS: MR. J. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER: Oh, oh! A point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please! A point of order has been raised by the hon. the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder). :-JR. J. HODDER: Having listened carefully to Your Honour's ruling concerning matters that take place outside of the House of Assembly and political matters, I would submit, Mr. Speaker, that the Premier is out of order in his answer when he refers to mat~ers which do not have anything to do with this House. MR.

SPEAKER: To the point of order, there is no reference that I quoted about answers. The references are all there about questions - MR. STIRLING: Oh, you cannot ask a question but you can answer anything you like. MR. SPEAKER: - and I believe they are fairly clear. Also, I might add that the hon. Leader of the Oppos­ ition's question was allowed, it was permitted, it was in order .. The answer was given. It is not for the Chair to 3255 .-.•

April 13, 1981 Tape No. 1180 0\<J- 3 MR. SPEAKER(Sirnrns): decide whether or not the answer is acceptable to the hon. members to my right, that is up to them to decide. If it is not, then they have another procedure which they may follow. MR. STIRLING: The procedure is taken up on ' Thursday. MR. SPEAKER: There is not point of order. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, 32.56

April 13, 1981 Tape No. 1181 NM - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: · the district that the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) represents, if you apply the Bellevue district results to it,will find that the PC Party would win Bonavista North 3,616 to 1,294, SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh~ PREMIER PECKFORD: So I think it would be very advisable for the Leader of the Opposition to take another approach in Question Period so we can get on to creating jobs, so we can get on to helping the fishery, so we can get on to the forestry. SOME HON. MEMBERS: AN HON. MErA..BER: PREMIER PECKFORD: Oh, oh! Paved roads.

That is what we should be doing and to ask questions about a campaign that is completed in which the Liberal Party lost and the PC Party won - MR. HISCOCK: A .point of order, ."!r. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) Order, please! PREHIER PECKFORD: good at this point in time. SOME HON. MI: ">BERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. HISCOCK: side I am unable to - SOME HON. MEHBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. HISCOCK: - I think does not do anybody any Hear, hear! Order, please! The hon. member for Eagle River. Mr. Speaker, I regret that over on this Oh, oh!

Order, please! - that I am unable to hear the Premier because he is eating either a candy or something like that and I believe in this question_ SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: Oh, oh! Order, please! Oh, oh! Order, please: 3257

·- April 13, 1981 Tape No. 1181 NM - 2 MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker, if we are going to have, · as the President of the Privy Council (Mr. Marshall) always says, the decorum of this House, if I am going to listen to the question from the Premier of this Province, I would like to have him speak distinctly and clearly. AN HON. MEMBER: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) To the point of order, is the point of order - SOME HON. MEHBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Is the point of order that has been raised now the fact that an hon. member is consuming food in the House?

Is that the point of order the hon. member raised? r1R. HISCOCK: I do not know what he is consuming. MR. SPEAKER: Because if it is it is qut of order. The hon. Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: I have a throat lozenge because I have a bad throat and I am sorry if my speech is not as clear and as distinctive - I hope it is gramatically correct. But there could be some problem with the way the words come out. But I think what I am saying is grammatically correct, if not as clear as the hon. member would like it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile. MR.

NEARY: We have no objection to the Premier chewing on something, Mr. Speaker, providing - MR. HANCOCK: Unless it is his tongue. MR. NEARY: keep his jaws together. SOl'I.E HON. MEMBERS: PREMIER ?ECKFORD: Y!R. 01EARY: - providing it is sticky enough to Hear, hear! (Inaudible). Mr. Speaker, would the hon. gentleman tell the House, this great reformer 'N"ho \'ient around the Province campaigning on reforms, honest and open government, would the hon. gentleman inform the House whether or not the letter 3258

April 13, 1981 Tape o . 1181 dM - 3 HR. NEARY : referred to ~y the Leader of the Opposition (Mr . Stirling) is the latest example of the Premier's zeal for reform in this Province? ~R . SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. Premier . PRE~IER PECKFORD: That question does not really demand an ans~1 er, Mr. Speaker . ~?.. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon . member for LaPoi.le . .''1..'< • NEARY : (Inaudible) . Send over t..'le ques don. Perhaps I will go down to chs ~i.is~er of Education (Ms . Verge), and ask c~e Minis~er of EC:ucation, ~-1ho once refe.rred to Mr .

Smalhtood as c:.e mcst corruoc Premier in the 1-:hole oi Canada , •.vould c11e hon . Minister - Sm1E !'10 i. MB4BE:RS : Oh, oh ! MR . NEJ\.RY : - would the hon . Minister of Ecucation - to a ta:inland magazine I mig ht saJ - t·Tould the hon . Minister o= Education inform the House if che lady ~as instructed by the Premier to deliver this immoral let er to the con scituen ts in che district of Bellevue? 3259 0

April 14, 1981 t1R.SPEAKER (Simms) MS. VERGE: Tape No. 1182 AH-1 The han. Minister of Education. Mr. Speaker, thac certainly does not deserve an answer. I do not even know what the han. member is talki~g about. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.SPEAKER: for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: A supplementary. The hon.member Would the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) inform the House if she did indeed deliver,door to door, hand deliver letters signed by the Premier of this Province? MR.SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker, my job does not include delivering mail.

That comes '"ithin the responsibility of the federal government. SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR . SPEAKER: r1R. HANCOCK: Hear, hear! The hon.member for LaPoile. The han. member is just tryina to kill time. It is ridiculous boy. We are going back to the old Hilter times again. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Education, a lady who has many times in this House expressed her feeling and her affection for the Premier, the great reformer in this Province, a man who is going to bring in all kinds of reforms and run an open and honest government, :.£ the minister has read this letter and if so, would the minister consider this as one of the great reforms of this great Newfoundland reformer, the greatest reformer in Newfoundland's history? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Education.

Ms VERGE: Mr.Speaker, I have read a lot- ~. bout a lot of subject< and I stand by my statement that the present Premier is the greatest Premier in the country today and is certainly the greatest - 3260

April 14,1981 . Tape No. 1182 AH-2 SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ I MsVERGE: ~ in the history of this Province and our record of legislative reforms speaks for itself . MR.SPEAKER: The hon. member for Trinity- Bay De Verde. MR.F.ROWE: Mr. Speaker, since the hon. the Eouse Leader is so concerned about partiality and obl~ctivity in this House , I am wondering if the Premier <,;ho was heading up the last 'N'eek of the campaign could inform the House whether the member for Conception Bay South (~Ir .Butt) , the Deputy Speaker of this House,was in that Bellevue by-election taking

part in it? SOME HON.ME~~ERS: Oh, oh~ MR.F. RO'ivE: Oh just keep quite will you! c1R.SPEAKER (Simms) The hon. the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: It is wonderful to see the way the Opposition across the way here are all so concerned about Bellevue district. Just let it be recorded that the Progressive Conservati<Te party of Newfoundland went from twenty-nine per cent to forty-five per cent of the vote, that we increased our vote by fifty-one per cent and that the Liberal party of ~ewfoundland should be ashamed of themselves. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR.F.ROWE: A supplementary Mr. Speaker.

NR.SPEAKER : A supple mentary . The he n. member for Trinity Bay De Verde. Y!R.F.ROWE: Does the hoQ. the Premier realize how stunned and stupid and ~oolish he sounds when he comes up with that kind of an answer. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ 11R. F. ROWE: Does the hon. Premier of this Province realize, Mr. Speaker, that the Labrador South by-election was a turnover? Does he realize that the Hermitaqe by -election was a turnover? Does he realize that the Ferryland by-election was a turnover? That the Bonavista North by-election 3261

April 14, l9Sl Tape No . 1182 AH- 3 MR . F . ROIVE: was .a turnover? That the Exploits by - election 1-1as a turnover? That the second by - el.action in Exploits was a turnover - .SO~IE HON .ME~IBERS : NR . SPEAKER (Simms) : MR.F . RO\-TE : SOME HON .NE~tBERS: ~!R . SPEAKER: AN HON . :OIEMBER: HR . f . ROt-JE : l1R . SPEAKER: Oh , oh! Order, please! - that St . ~ohn's West was a turnover? Oh. oh ! Orner. oloasa! '·'hac is c.he que stion? That is the c:ues.tion . Order, please ! I think 3252 !.•

April 13, 1981 Tape 1183 EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : hon. members can observe as easily as the Chair can that this Question Period ~ow is turning into a debating forum rather than Question Period. And I think that matters that are being r~ised now, and as I mentioned initially, are meant more for the debate than they are for Question Pe~iod. I believe that hon. members now are asking questions and obviously getting answers, that both provoke debate, and I would ask hon. members to please consider the rules of the House. The hon. the menber for Trinity - Bay de Verde. C.LR.. HANCOCK: you are ~alking, boy! MR.

SPEAKER: Take things out of your mouth when The hon. member has not asked the ·=Iuestion. I think he was giving some (inaudible). direct his question. 1-!R . F . ROWE : I would ask the hon. member to Mr. Speaker, to summarize the question: After these ten turnovers in by-elections does he not think that this is a great Liberal victory. For the first time we retained the seat. SOME HON. 1-!EMBERS : MR. YlARSHJI.LL: SONE nON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: Hear, hear! A point of order, Mr. Speaker . Oh, oh! Order, please! A point of order has been raised by the hon. the President of the Council. ~lR. MARSHALL : Mr.

Speaker, Your Honour has already ruled that the hon. gentleman's ten questions were out of order and then he presupposes - SONE HON. /-!EMBERS: YlR. SPE.li.KER: .'1R. YlARSHALL: Oh, oh! Order, please! - he presumes, Mr. Speake~, ~hen to summarize the ten that are out of order. I suppose the 3253

April 13, 1981 Tape 1183 EC - 2 MR. MARSHALL: answer to it is, Mr. Speaker, does not he realize that the many elections that occurred since 1949 to 1971 called the turnover in Newfoundland, almost caused it to turn bottom up? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. SPEAKER: PREMIER PECKFORD: SOME HON. MEHBERS: MR. SPEAKER: That is not a point of order. To the point of order. There is no point of order. Further questions? Oh, oh! :VIr . Speaker. The hon. the Premier. May I answer the question, Mr. Speaker? Oh, oh! Order, please! Order, please!

It is very difficult for the Chair to know if a question has been asked or not. The hon. member had the floor for a couple of moments. I presume he asked a question. Did he not ask a question? MR. F. ROWE: I asked a question, yes. MR. SPE.~ER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Thank you, ~r. Speaker. Now, Mr. Speaker, I cannot help it if the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde (Mr. F. Rowe) is upset about the Bellevue by-election and that the Liberal Party has lost ground. I cannot help it if the Leader of the Opposition is upset. I cannot help it. I cannot help it, Mr. Speaker.

If you take the Bellevue by-election and you transpose that result on the other Liberal districts, Bonavista North would be lost. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! Burin - Placentia West would be lost, Carbonear would be lost, Eagle River would be lost. Fogo would be lost. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 3264

April 13, 1981 Tape 1183 EC - 3 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please: Order, please: SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please: As I indicated, that type of questioning was obviously out of order. I would suggest that type of answe~ing too is out of order. l-!R. F. ROijiTE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementar~, the han. the member for Trinity -Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, the Premier is extremely clever. He has not yet answered the first question that I directed to him, and that is, Could he inform this House - and this affects this House, Mr.

Speaker - did the member for Conception Bay South, the Deputy Speaker of this House (Mr. Butt), take

part in the Bellevue by-election campaign? And that is something that affects this House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! PREMIER PECKFORD: And LaPoile would be lost, Lewisporte would be lost, Port au Port \vould be lost. SOME HON. MEMBERS: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER£' Hear, hear! Oh, oh! Order, please! Order, please! Oh, oh! Order, please! Order, please! May I make two rulings here? First of all, the question was out of order because you cannot repeat a question that has al~eady been answered or to which an answer has been refused - Beauchesne, 357(

b) and, of course, the answer is not 3265

April 13, 1981 Tape No. 1184 SD - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : in order as well, because I just indicated it was not. Any further questions? MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, my question is also for the Premier. I wonder if the Premier would care to elaborate on a line in a letter supposedly signed by the Premier and the line being: 'Vote for the PCs or vote for nothing'. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. FLIGHT: To 7,000 voters in this Province, Mr.

Speaker, a district of 14,000 people roughly, would the Premier care to comment on the philosophy or ideology or whatever, or the sensibility, of saying to those people to either vote for a chance and the chance, of. course, meaning MR. SPEAKER: MR. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! - vote PC or vote for nothing7 Order, please! The Chair has to be consistent. I have ruled that that line of questioning is not in order. The hon. member has to await or rephrase the question.

I will permit it, ~ut if it refers to the letter and all that sort of thing- L think I have indicated at the outset, and the House has obviously put the Chair in a difficult position because I have ruled it out of order. The hon. member for Windsor - Buchans . MR. FLIGHT: Okay, thank you Mr. Speaker, I respect your ruling, of course. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. FLIGHT: Would the Premier care to co~~ent on the principle, the ideology, the philosophy of telling 7,000 people to either vote for the PCs or vote for nothing? 1-!R. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. 3256

' I April 13, 1981 Tape No. 1184 so - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: Yes, tl!r. Speaker, I would love to comment on that . I will comment and give my philosophy behind it as soon as the Liberal Pa.rty gives the philosophy behind saying (inaudible) nothing. SOME HON. ME~ffiERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! Order, please! A point of order has been raised by the hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde . MR. F. Rm'1E: Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker just ruled that we could not read from a letter that was delivered during an election campaign.

The hon. the Premier is about to quote from a newspaper - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. ROWE: • Because I can see the thing because I have (inaudible) , okay? SOME HON. M&~BERS: Oh, oh. JY!R. F. R01'1E: SOME HON. MEMBERS: 1-lR. SPEAKER: j\IJR. F. ROWE: cannot quote - SOME HON. ~I!EMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: Okay. Now, Mr. Speaker, I - Oh, oh. Order, ulease! - submit tnat the hon. the Premier Oh, oh. Order, please! jii!R. F. ROWE: - from that particular - thank you, 11r. Speaker - cannot quote from that ne•t~spaper or table it or use it in the House whatsoever. SOHE HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: 11R. OTTENHEIHER: 11R.

SPEAKER: has finished. MR . ~l EARY: Oh, oh. Order, please! To that point of order for a minute, Mr. Sp:aker. Well I am no~ sure the hon. member (Inaudible) 3267

April 13, 1981 SOHE HON. MEMBERS: ~~ . SPEAKER (Simms): the point of order . MR. OTTENREIMERI Tape No . 1184 so - 3 Oh, Oh! The hon . Minister of Justice, to Mr. Speaker, I think that these 90ints of order probably put Your Honour in a very difficult ~osition. Your Honour has ruled a number of times that questions and answers referring to election campaign material in the recent by-election are out of order.

However, when people continue to ask the questions even though you have ruled them ~ut of order, and then to get up and say, oh, the answer is out of order - I mean, after the Chair has ruled the ques~ions were out of order, and the questions continue to be posed, chen it appears some\~hat inconsistent , after asking questions that are out of order, that then they object to an answer. I ~ean, the natural result of that would be that there would be thi=ty minutes of questions out of order with no answers. SQME HON . MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 3253

April 13,· 1981 MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Tape No. 1185 EL - 1 To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. To that point of order, the hon . the Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, what we are attempting to do-and I accepted the Speaker's ruling and I would expect that if the ruling is fair fo~ this side, the ruling is fair for that side. Now, what the point of order was say.ing was that in keeping with your original ruling,that we could not quote from campaign material.

Now, the whole purpose was to find out whether or not this was done '"'i th the blessing of the government and if there is any corrupt practice of the govern­ ment. Now, we accept that we cannot ask that question. But if the Speaker has ruled the questioning of that kind of mat­ erial out of order, then my colleague is pointing out that you cannot then have the speaker, who has been abusing the Speaker's ruling all day, then quoting from campaign material. We will be quite happy to have it quoted both ways, Mr. Speaker. MR. MARSHALL: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A final submission to the point of order, the hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: All I can say, Mr. Speaker, is that this question period will surely go down in the ~nnals as the Question Period of the wilted roses. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. MRSHALL: MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: (Inaudible) go down in the annals. I think, Mr. Speaker, - Order, please! I think, Mr. Speaker, that what the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde (F. Rowe) is surely ~feard about. when he gets up on his points of order, is that the Premier will get down to the assesment of his district. So I think that if perhaps the hon.

Premier can be given his (in audible) 3259 r.

April 13, 1981 Tape No. 1185 EL - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): vlell, to the point of order, - PREMIER PECKFORO: He lost too. MR. MARSHALL: He lost too, did he? MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, Beauchesne is clear with respect to guidelines for asking questions with respect to quotations and so on. With respect to the point of order raised by the hen. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde (F. Rowe), I do not believe the hon. the Premier had a chance to say anything or do anything, so I do not know if he quoted or was going to quote or whatever. In any event, I am sorry but the time for Oral Questions has expired.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of 27 4 residents of the community of ~lain­ land on the Port au Port Peninsula. The prayer of the petition, il'lr. Speaker, is 'r,qe, the residents of Mainland hereby request that the road from Lourdes to r1ainland be u?graded and paved': Mr. Speaker, this is the second petition 9resented in this House during which I have this session from the residents of this area and if .Mr.

Speaker will remember that the last time -And I do hope that the new Minister of Transportation (R.Oa\~

e) does get a copy of the brief that was presented here in this House by the residents of Main­ land and Three Rock Cove just a few short weeks ago. Now, Mr. Speaker, I would like to get the attention of the new Minister of Transportation because I think that this particular brief, which was presented by the committee in those towns,was a very important one and a very 3270

April 13, 1981 Tape No. 118 5 EL - 3 MR. HODDER: good effort. Not only that, Mr . Speaker, but they have again presented this petition to the House because they know there is a new minister and they also know, Mr. Speaker, that this minister represents Bay St. George and,of course, Mr. Speaker, Bay St. George is an area that hangs together. 3271 r.·

April 13, 1981 Tape No. 1186 NM - 1 MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, one part of Bay St. George iq hailed the same as another part of Bay St. George. And even though there are three separate provincial districts in that area SOME HON. MEHBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! Order, please! MR. HODDER: - even though there are three separate provincial districts in that area there is great sympathy for other arP-as. Because as you know, Hr. Speaker, Stephenville is, I suppose, the commercial centre of Bay St. George with the district of St.

George's and the district of Port au Por~ being more or less feeder areas into Stephenville. And what is good for one part of one part of the district is good for another. And, Hr.

Speaker, one of the problems that we have is that the road conditions in the Bay are not ideal by any means.And,of course,the con- ditions of the roads in the Port au Port district, which include the Mainland road, which is the road from Mainland to Lourdes, the Fox Island River Road, the road from Fox Islann River to Port au Port East, and the Black Duck Brook Road, the conditions of those roads are deplorable and the residents there are tired of trying to navigate those roads. The children have to go long distances. It was laid out pretty well, Mr. Speaker, in the brief which the y p resented. But, Mr.

Speaker, even ~hough these roads have become an issue, a symbol, a rallying point for the whole people - all the people of the district of Port au Port, and the people of Stephenville an( the people of St. George's, even though those roads have become a rallying point,while inaction goes on and lack of upgrading over the past two or three years on those particular roads, the main trunk road which goes from the community of Port au Port \vest into Campbell's Creek, a distance of seven or eight miles, which was earlier a c~ip seal road

April 13, 1981 Tape No. 1186 Nl-t - 2 MR. HODDER: and then was later paved, about five years ago, that is deteriorating badly and the resulc, Mr. Speaker, is that the whole district has very, very bad roads. And if the government does not find funds to look after the unpaved roads.they are going to find chat the paved roads will become as bad or worse than the unpaved ones . So what I am asking, Mr. Speaker, is that the minister, who must ~e sympathetic to this particular area, being Bay st . George's Cabinet minister- 1nd '"e are very pleased, Mr. Speaker, to hav e him .

We are very pleased that he was appointed Minister of Transporcation (Mr. Dawe), because we know now that he will give •Js sympathetic hearing in Port au Port . And the residents, all 247 of them, Mr . Speaker, all voters, have sent this petition to him, asking for upgrading of their road, and they :eel, ~r. Speaker, that that miniscer , who represents our area ,will give it sympathecic hearing , and that he will correct the problems, being from the region - AN HON . MEMBER: Roads are noc (inaudible) problem. MR. HODDER: - hearing the problems of the region , and knowing hO\oJ bad those roads are , !1r.

Speaker . 3273

April 13, 1981 Tape No. 1187 mv - 1 ~lR. J. HODDER: He and I flew over them one time and he saw them and I am sure he has been over them himself. So, Mr. Speaker, we are looking for good things. I do wish the minister well in his portfolio and I would. hope, Mr. Speaker, that when the Budget comes down that lo and behold this problem.will be looked after and these people will never have to petition this House again, ~r. Speaker, and I will never have to present another petition to the gause on their behalf.because I am sure the work will be done. Mr.

Speaker, I ~ill present this ?etition and ask that it be referred to the department to which it relates. ~·!R. SPEAKER (Simms): of the Opposition. YlR. L. STIRLING: To the petition, the hon. Leader Well, Mr. Speaker, I assumed that the minister would speak on the other side since he ts from the area and is responsible and understands something about roads. Roads got to be a very big issue in the recent discussions in various places over the last three weeks so much so that people voted to have their roads done not only in this area but also in the Southwest Arm area and in the Markland area.

They accepted the letter from the Premier as I am sure these people would accept the letter saying, 'Give us a chance to do the job'. And they want the job done, Mr. Speaker, they want ~cads done. This is a government that is not paying attention to the real issues and they got the message. They got the messaae recently in Bellevue and t~ ~ ! will get the message from all over the Province if they continue to use that kind of distorted view. Mr. Speaker, I wonder what is happening in ~ewfoundland when we see such a valiant effort to convince themselves after losing that they - 3 2 7 4

.l.?ril 1 3, 1981 Tape No . 1187 OW - 2 ~L~ . F . 1•/HITE : That they have won . NR . L . STIRLING: - that they have won . I wonder if this same kind of distorted view - HR . SPEA'<ER(Simms): Order, please! of the ?etition . )!R . L . S'!'I~L~"!-IG: rt should be directed to the prayer I wond~r if chis s~me kind o~ di atort'=!d vie1·1 can be e xplain ed to the people •t~ho hav e peti ­ cionec ~or ·roads , chis kind of distorted v ie1.,. that yo u can lose ~dly but somehow you win .

Maybe chey should be ~ old t~at, ' Oh , ye s, t~e government is satisfied'. rs this sa~e k~~d of problem =~feccing our negotiations with everyt hin g ? :s it: possible chat we have not got the money Eor roads bec3 usa Ln t~e ~ istor ted view t hat says you can lose and someho~ Ln losing they are on such an ego trip , Nr .

Speaker, sue:: 3n ego tri? chat they cannot ask : o:: support for the roads as "'a'{e been askec for in this petition, that somehow they :eel ~hat it i~ a victo r "/ , that che roads get Norse and 110rse but they have :10t asked 3n y~ody for any help 1 they have not co ns ul ted, they have not :legotiated. ~tr . Speak er , maybe the people of Ne•.Yfoundland are no•" ge tting some kind of a view about hOI<~ the :nind of thac govern ment work s: when ~:hey make such a big ;::o co to ?revent us from asking questions, ?resenting ; i:t~er Nrit;::e n by the ?remie r. The ?eople 32 75 ....

April 13, 1981 Tape No. 1188 SD - 1 1-'lR. STIRLING: in this area, Mr. Speaker, would also like to have a letter written by the Premier, a letter to the Minister of Transportation(Mr. Dawe) saying that yes, roads are important, more important than all the highfalutin that they are kidding caemselves with. Mr. Speaker, it appears that they must get together, give themselves injections of 3ome kind of LSD, some kind of distortion, ~·1d by whatever kind of theory, they can convert, they can convert a resounding rejection of the Premier's plea and can convert a great win on behalf of the Liberia! Party.

Whatever that same kind of distorted view, the people in this district in Port au Port, are wondering how it is that they cannot get their roads done. All over the Province the people in PC districts and Liberal districts are asking the same questions but they do not carR ~r. Speaker, they just do not care. MR. NEARY: Callous, callo~s. HR. STIRLING: They do not care about people.

As long as they get themselves on their own little cloud and they have something that they can justify in their own minds, they can get away from the real issues - unemployment, road construction, building construction, creating jobs, municipal taxes, force property taxes down. All the people want in the Port au Port area is a reasonable look at their roads and a cow~itment now to do something about roads. And, Mr. Speaker, I certainly join my colleague and I am very disappointed that the Minister of Transportation who is from that area did not have the courtesy to respond and support the petition. MR.

SPEAKER (Simms): Further petitions. 3276

April 13/ 1981 Tape No. 1188 SD - 2 ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: Order 14. Motion 1 second reading of a bill 1 "An Act To Amend The Financial Administration Act 1 1973". Bill No. 41. The debate adjourned the last day by the hon. member for LaPoile (f'lr. Neary) who hil,s 1 I am not sure exactly 1 approximately half an hour. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speake~~ when I adjourned the debate on second reading on this bill, 'An Act To Arr.end.

The Financial Administration Act' I on Friday, I was dealing with the things that had occurred as a result of the Comptroller of the Public Treasury being very lax in his responsibility in the last seven or eight years. As hon. members know. the Public Accounts Committee are presently dealing with the McConnell Advertising scandal - in case there is somebody in the House who does not understand what it is about it had to do with spending of public funds on a film of a Tory convention in Gander.

Somehow or other money was taken from the Public Treasury and spent on a film of the Tory convention in Gander to be used on a programme called Provincial Affairs on CBC - SOI1E HON. ~lEMBERS : ~R. NEARY: Oh, oh. - a free time political - boys, you know 1 I cannot hear myself - telecast on C3C. There were four of these five minute films done. paid for out of the Public Treasury. In addition to that, ~1r.

Speaker, there were four more films done paid for out of the ?ublic Treasury of the fishery conference and the films were to be used for the same purpose for the free time political telecast on CBG called Provincial Affairs. And lo and behold, ~r. Speaker, I do not know if hon. members are aware of it/ if hon. gentlemen have seen the film 1 but one of these five minute 3 2 7 7

Apcil 13 , 1981 Tape No . 1188 so - 3 t<IR. NEARY : films was done by none other than the gxeat refor.111er himself. SO~IE HON . MEMBERS : ~lho? t'lho? Who? HR. N".:...:.RY : By the man who was going to run a honest and clean government . A five minute film paid for out of the Public Treasury for a five minute political telecasc on CBC . No~·; •nho is t he great reformer \ofhO would do that who •nould allow himself to be filmed for Provincial Affairs on CBC? \~ho 1.,rould allow himself to do that, surely noc the great reformer'? MR . LPSH: IVho'? 1>1R . )lEARY: It would not be the Premier of this Province, ~tr .

Speaker , no . It • . .-ould not be the Premier when he v.tas Minister of t•lines and Energy , surely:> Surely as a 5enior minister in that government he would not c1llo 1., himse!.E to be - :-ffi . !YARRE"N : Not you . MR. ~EARY: - no the former ~linis~er of :•lines c1n<i Energy - allow himself to be !ilmed - a :ive mi:1uce film paid for out of the Public Treasury 32 78

April 13,1981 Tape No. 118<1 i\H-1 MR. NEARY: to be shown on Provincial Affairs. Now,these films,that were never shown by the way, Mr. Speaker - I believe the first time that they were screened they were shown to the Public Accounts Committee and the news media had an opportunity to see . the ·films and any members of the House who were in attendance at the public hearing saw these films. These films cost over $50,000. The taxpayers of this Province paid illegally, the money was extorted or there was a conspiracy to defraud the Public Treasury to th~ tune of $50,000 for these five films.

In addition to that , we hav~ the Devine Advertising scandal where a political poll was paid for ou~ of the Public Treasury, a political poll, another $50,000. Over $100,000 taken from the Public Treasury to pay for political propaganda. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is not good . enough. MR. HANCOCK: That must have been the former administration. That could not have happened in this one . MR .

NEARY: \vell, the administration may be the former administration but one of the culprits, one of the ringleaders, one of the actors on that film was none other than the present Premier,when he was then Minister of Mines and Energy, sitting there proud in all his glory in living colour talking about the offshore , to be shown on the free- time political telecast. So, Mr. Speaker, if charges are laid,and they should be laid against all those who violated the Financial Administration Act of that d~v , then certainly I •,vould think that one of the ones who should be charged - MR. BARRY: Be careful now. MR.

NEARY: Careful o f what? c-IR. BARRY: (Inaud i ble ) so i mpor tant? 3279

April l3, 1981 Tape No. 1189 AH-2 SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh,oh! MR. NEARY: Oh.listen to the cowardly way that the present Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) is trying to weasel his way out of it. The hon. gentleman was not in the Cabinet. He is safe on this one. The hon. gentleman was over lecturing law at Dalhousie University but the former Minister of Mines and Energy, who is now the Premier, was one of the culprits. He sat down and had himself taped on a contract that had nothing to do with political propaganda, it was a contract with McConnell Advertising to do work for the Newfoundland government.

But the Premier was one of the ringle.aders , he 1'/as one of the actors who participated in these films that are now in custody. I presume they are in custody of the Public Accounts Committee. At least we had them. The RCMP had the films for the longest time. Apparently they are inve~tigating the possibility of laying criminal charges in connection with the McConnell Advertising scandal and the Devine Advertising scandal. AN HON .MEMBER: I am glad you got (inaudible) yourself. MR. NEARY: I do not know, Mr. Speaker. I am not a lawyer. That is a job for the Justice Deparment. DR.

COLLINS: You are spreading rumours. MR. NEARY: I am not spreading rumours. That is a fact. DR. COLLINS: Well,who are you charging? MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman should listen to what I said. Here is what I said, that RCMP had custody of these films. NR. J. CARTER: Speaker? MR. NEARY• How did this develop, Mr. Because '"e are talking about the Comptroller of the Treasury, that is how it all happened. HR. HANCOCK: You would not understand that anyway . 3280 . ...

April 13,1981 Tape No . ll89 AH- 3 HR . NEARY: Mr. Speaker, to ans111er my hon . friend,the RCMP took custody of the film because they were in~~stigatinq the possibility of layinq criminal charges . DR. COLLINS : MR: NEARY: AN HON • ME~1BER : ~!R . NEARY: Against whom? I do not know. Well,why mention it? Well, I mentio ned it because when che Publ ~c Accounts Committee went to look for the film , the Eilm was in the hands of the RCMP and the RCNP agreed to turn the film over to ~~e Public Accounts Committee . i'IR . CARTE R: ~R . HANCOCK: was this the same RC~IP whn i 'lvestigaten Y""r 0l'fice?

Ho1., low can you get? Can you not think of something intelligent to say? HR. NEARY : And so, Mr. Speaker, in addition to charges being laid for violation of the Financial Administration Act,I think that 3281

April 13, 1981 Tape NO. 1190 . EL,- 1 MR. NEARY: criminal charges should be laid, but that is a job for the Justice Department. The whole matter should be turned over to the legal staff of the Justice Depart­ ment to investigate and look into the possibility of laying criminal charges. Certainly they should look at the Financial Administration Act and look into the possibility of laying charges under that act. And •N'ho should the charges by laid against? Well, as I indicated, Mr.

Speaker, the last day I spoke in this debate.there is such a thing under the R~i~i~h Parliamentary system that we are operating under, as coll­ ective responsibility. Mr. Moores was not wholly and solely responsible for that dastardly act himself, he was aided and abetted by his ministers. And whether or not they attended the Cabinet meetings that day is irrelevant and does not make any difference,because they all get orders-in - council. They get a copy of the order-in-council and the order-in-council stated that the Premier of that day and the ?resident of Treasury Board, Mr.

Maynard, 'N'ho is nmv 1vi th the 'rlorkers' Compensation Board, were given the authority to sign invoices, N'hich was a violation of the Financial Administration Act, a very serious violation, Mr. Speaker, and that is what caused all the trou~le. That is what caused che Public Treasury to be looted, was that order-in-council. And so, minister cannot weasel their way out by saying that they did not know about it, they did not know everything that the Premier said or did. But, Mr. Speaker, it does not ~ake any difference, they are still collectively res­ ponsible.

And if charges are not laid for a violation of the ?inancial Adr:~inistration Act, then this act is just a farce. It r,.;ould oe better if it did not exist. I 1vould like to see criminal char;es laid in addition to civil acti9n. 3282 .....

April 13, 1981 Tape No. 1190 EL - 2 MR. NEARY: Certainly there will have to be civil action to recover the money, to recover the $100,000 that was defrauded, Mr. Speaker, $100,000 - $100,000 - and God only knows how much 1 more defrauded from the Public Treasury. There was a conspiracy to defraud the Public Treasury and every man is responsible, every minister in the Cabinet of that day is res­ ponsible for it, '.vhether he likes it or not. And only a rat and a scoundrel and a coward and a traitor would try to weasel his way out of it and try to lay all the blame on Mr. Moores or on I'Ir. iY1aynard. MR.

BARRY: MR. SPEAKER (Butt): A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order, the hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. .MR. BARRY: All of that diatribe is out of order, unparliamentary and has to be immediately withdrawn. NR. SPEAKER: It is a very valid point of order and I ask the hon. member to withdraw those remarks, rat - MR. NEARY: What is your authority for it, Mr. Speaker? \vhat is your authority·for it? MR. SPEAKER: Beauchesne. NR. BARRY: Scoundrel, rat (inaudible) MR. NEARY: I said, only - only a scoundrel, only a rat will - only a traitor - MR. BARRY: NR.

SPEAKER: You know only (inaudible) Order, please! I might point out to the hon. member anything he says indirectly is the same as saying it directly. And I quote Beauchesne on page 113, remarks as being unparliamentary, rat and so on. So, I will ask the hon. member to withdraw. NR. NEARY: Now, Nr. Speaker, I would think that Nr. Moores and Mr. ~laynard would have some serious questions to ask about ministers who would try to put all the blame on their shoulders, that they would try to weasel out from under their 3283

April 13, 1981 Tape No . 1190 EL - 3 MR . NEARY : responsibilities by cla i ming they had selected amnesia, they did not remember . It was so long ago they had forgotte n about it or they did not know about it . That is no excuse• Under the British Parliamentary system of government every minister is collectively responsible . Every minister . t~hen I was in t.he Smallwood administration for three and a half years, I 11as respon s ible as much as any member of that government for the decisions that were 3284 - f:<•

April 13, 1981 Tape 1191 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: made . be they good or bad, right or wrong, 'and I gladly accept that responsibility, Mr. Speaker. But that is more than I can say about ministers in the Moores administration, twelve of whom are sitting in this present administration, twelve Qf them over there. The name of the administration may change but the faces ~-c·? s-cil l the same. t-IR. HISCOCK: the cre•.v. MR. NEARY: They changed the c-aptain but not They •.vere all sa\"ed, and now ~!r. Moores is the scoundrel - born again- and Mr. Moores is the scoundrel and Mr. Maynard is the scapegoat. Well, Mr.

Speaker, the only thing that I can say is that I am hoping that justice will be done, but I have very grave doubts because I think the whole matter will be suppressed by the government. They have a majority and they can almost do as they please. They will suppress that period, Mr. Speaker. They will suppress it, but they will only get away with it for a certain length of time, because somehow or other, Mr.

Speaker, governments have a way of changing and when the government changes, the same files are kept in the Department of Justice and in the Department of Finance, and in due course - it may take a little longer, but in due course the matter will be dealt with. And this particular type of thing is not outside the statute of limitations, the seven year limit. So it will be dealt with in due course if this government attempts to suppress the investigations, the charges being laid, whether they be criminal charges or •.vhether they be charges under the Financial Administration Act or whether it be civil action.

Justice must not only be done, Mr. Speaker, it must appear to be done, and up to now, justice has not been done. And we have before us 3285 .-.. r:

April l3, 1981 Tape 1191 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: today

an act now to amend the Financial Administration Act, to separate the responsibilities of the Deputy Minister of Finance and the Comptroller of the Treasury - a good thing. It is a direct result of all the scandals, Mr. Speaker, that occurred a few years ago. It is a recommendation made by the Public Accounts Committee and it is a good recommendation. But that is not all that is in this bill, Mr. Speaker. I draw hon. members' attention to

Section 4 of the Financial Administration Act, the amended act. Listen to this, Mr. Speaker. Just listen to this. They are now doing almost the identical, same thing as Mr. Moores did - almost, only now they are asking the House to approve it. They are asking this House to give the Lieutenant-Governor in Council - and the Comptroller of the Treasury would have .to turn a blind eye to it - to give the Lieutenant-Governor in Council approval to make purchases in advance.

In other words, they could make purchases ten years down the road and pay for the purchases whether it be services or goods a year, in the next Budget or in the following Budget or in a Budget ten years hence. That is r.vrong I Mr. Speaker I and that should be removed from the Financial Administration Act. Let me read it for the benefit of hon. gentlemen who have not read this bill.

"Notwithstanding any other provision of this act the Lieutenant-Governor in Council may on the written recomnendation of the board, authorize an agreement to be entered into for the ' purchase of goods or services to be delivered in a subsequent fiscal year so long as the payment resulting from the agreement is due in a subsequent fiscal year." That is a very dangerous precedent, Mr. Speaker, a very dangerous clause. 3286

April 13, 1981 Tape 1191 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: It is almost as bad as the Cabinet giving Mr. Moores and Mr. Maynard authority to approve invoices, which was contrary to the Financial Administration Act and contrary to the procedure in the public service. It is almost as bad. What the government is doing now 3287

April 13, 1981 Tape No. 1192 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: is asking ~e board to give them a blank cheque, to give them authority to make purchases a year or two or ten years down the road, and pay for these purchases in subsequent budgets. That should be dropped from this act, Mr. Speaker. It should be dropped. It is very, very dangerous and could get out of hand and out of control. It could be abused and no doubt would be abused. And it has to be taken out. Mr.

Speaker, I think we should stay on this bill, stay on this act until the government knuckles under and removes this very dangerous clause from the bill. ''The minister or the deputy minister or other officer charged with ~he administration of the relevant ffead of Expenditure reports that it is, in the opinion of that person, necessary to make the agreement at that time~ It is unheard of, Mr.

Speaker, unheard of; It is an outrage~ J.t is an outrage for this government to come into the House of Assembly and ask the House to approve an amendment to the Financial Administration Act, which is the only safety valve that we have on the Public Treasurv - the ~omptroller of the Treasury is the watchdog of the Treasury- the only safety valve we have, the only one apart from the Auditor General. who is a servant of this House- the Comptroller of the Treasury is supposed to be a servant of this House, - and what the government is doing now in their arrogance and in their con- tempt for this House -they have already manaqed to move the estimates off the floor of the House,they nave restricted debate in the House, and now they are asking this House - MR.

MARSHALL: The Opposition agreed •.vith it. MR. NEARY: The Opposition did noc: agree with it. MR. MARSHALL: You did agree •.vith it. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the Opposition said, "We will try it for one year " AN HON. MEt-'IJ3ER: Right on.

April 13, 1981 Tape No. 1192 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: -"'and then after a year if it does not work, change the rules back·:And since then the government have reneged. AN HON. MEMBER: That is what we heard.· MR. NEARY: They have not given the Opposition the perks they were promised, neither have they reviewed the Standing Rules to see if they are working, and they are not working. The Opposition has been muzzled and restricted in its performance in this House by this arrogant government, a government that has nothing but contempt for this House.

And now they are asking us in this bill - again another example of how they are trying to usurp the authority of the House and take the authority away from the House and put it in the Cabinet. And not only that, giving the Cabinet the right to overrule the Comptroller of the Treasury. The Comptroller of the Treasury is the top man as =ar as revenue and expenditure in this Province are concerned. He is the number one man. He is the only one that this House can depend on to safeguard public spending. He did not do a very good job in the last two or three or four years.

But now they are going to lift the authority out of his hands, the government, and they are going to ask the House to allow the government to enter into agreements to purchase goods and supplies without any reference to the House, without any reference to the Comptroller of the Treasury andthe Financial Administration Act, to do it carte blanche, give them a blank cheque and they will pay for it in the next fiscal year, or maybe a subsequent fiscal year, five, ten years down the road. It is unheard of, Mr. Speaker, It is too dangerous to talk about.

And it shows nothing but arrogance on the part of the government and contempt for this House and it should be taken out of that act. DR. COLLINS: li'hy? 3289 ~.

April 13, 1981 M.R. NEARY: DR. COLLINS: M.R. NEARY: Tape No . 1192 NN - 3 Why? Because it is dangerous. In what way? Mr . Speaker, it is unheard of Eor a government to ask to enter into agreement to give the Lieutenant-Governor in Council , which is the Cabinet , to give the Lieutenant-Governor in Cabinet the right co enter into an agreement for goods and services and pay for chem in subsequent budgets . Why I: hat is unheard of , Mr. Speaker. ~lha t is ·the point: of having es·timates in the House at all? What is the point in having a Comptroller of the Treasury?

What is the point in having a Financial Administrat ion Act, the only thing we can depend on to protect the Public Treasury? DR . COLLINS: M.R. NEARY: OR. COLLINS: NR. NEARY: DR. COLLINS: ~1R. ROBERTS: legislation to ~v e can do it no'" . Pardon? {ve can do it now. They cannot do it now. Yes we can. (\'e do !.t no.-1. If you do it now, why do you need 3290 c

April 13, 1981 TapE? No. 119 3 DW - l MR. S. NEARY: Why are you amending?# Why are you bringing in this amendment if you can do it now? DR. COLLINS: That means special warrants. MR. S. NEARY: Ah, I see, you have to bring in special warrants. Ah, ha~ Now that is a different matter. Now you want to eliminate the special warrants. .il-N HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) . MR. S.NEARY: Oh, sure~ Sure~ Why do you not just abolish the House of Assembly altogether, eliminate the House altogether~ If the President of the Council (Mr.

Marshall) had his way there would be no House of Assembly, we would have Emperor Brian and we would have the empress ~nd they would all live in their manor up in Mount Scio House and there would be no House of Assembly, if the hon. gentleman had his way. MR. D. HANCOCK: Liberals either. MR. S. NEARY: If he had his way there would be no Mr. Speaker, we are getting closer to a dictatorshiP. in this Province all the time. They do not want the House; the House is a nuisance to them, a bother to them! It is the only protection the people of this Province have. It is the only way they can get information.

The main purpose of the House is to pass Estimates. The government does not want to deal with that, that is too much trouble for them. They want to do it now by order-in-council. So, Mr. Speaker, my time has just about run out, I understand. MR. HANCOCK: By leave, by leave. MR. S. NEARY: And I am not going to ask for leave, Mr. Speaker, I am going to wind up my few remarks because I am sure there are other hon. members on this side of the House who want to speak on this bill. It is an important piece of legislation. It will not make amends for the past, che past has to be dealt with in a different way.

And if we allow this clause to stay in there 1 I am afraid we 3291

April 13, 1981 Tape No. 119"3 ow - 2 MR. S. NEARY: are going to have more abuse in the future. Although I am for separating the two positions, the Comptroller of the Treasury and the Deputy Minister of Finance, there are certain aspects of this bill that I am against and will vote against, Mr. Speaker, when I am given the opportunity. But as I say,I am sure my colleagues will welcome the opportunity to speak on this bill. And I would like to hear what my hon. learned friend for the Strait of Belle Isle (!"!r. Roberts} has to say about this particular clause in the bill, clause three.

Anybody who understands the \'lay that government works, Mr. Speaker, and "the way that the · Public Treasury is supposed to be looked ~fter,anybody who understands that knows that this is a very, very dangerous precedent and something that should be taken out of this bill. So having made these few remarks, Mr. Speaker, I look forward to the other members whowill partici­ pate in the debate. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Butt} : The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. E. ROBERTS: Yes, I am seconding my friend for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) today, Mr. Speaker. MR. E. HISCOCK: {Inaudible) MR. E.

ROBERTS: I do not know if my hon. friend for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock•)• wanted to say a few words as well on this bill. MR. E. HISCOCK: You go ahead. MR. E. ROBERTS: Well, either before or after me, it does not matter, there is loads of time. We are probably going to need the afternoon on this, I would think. 3292

April 13, 1981 Tape No. 1193 ow - 3 MR. E. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, my friend for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) has spoken in his usual eloquent and effective way about the effect of some of the clauses in this bill and I would like to add a few words to •11hat he said because I think that the grant of authority , which the government is asking for in asking us to approve this bill, is unwarranted.And while we are more than prepared to support the government on the question of separating the position of Comptroller from that of the Deputy Minister of Finance- and we do support tnat, in fact- as I am sure my friend for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) pointed out,that legislative action is nothing more or less than the implementa­ tion of a recommendation made a year or two past by the Public Accounts Committee. It is one of the many legacies which the former member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir, Mr. Simmons, has left 'to us in this Chamber. Mr. Simmons, of course, has gone on to serve in another place as the Member of Parliament for Burin­ St. George's where he is making a mark in Ottawa- MR. L. BARRY: A black mark. MR. E. ROBERTS: My friend for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) thinks a black mark,' I 'llould take issue with him on that.an ~.

At least he has made a mark,which is more than my friend for :1ount Scio has ever done anywhere he has ever been. But what I am saying is that the 3293

April 13, 1981 Tape 1194 EC - 1 MR . ROBERTS: separation of the Comptroller's position from that of the Deputy Minister of Finance's position is a good idea, in our opinion, and accordingly, we are prepared to support it, as my friend from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) has already said. But this bill has lurking down in it, buried in the fir.e ~rint of the legalese, a very dangerous provision and one that surpris~s me. 1qe hear so much from our learned friend from St. John's East (Mr.

Marshall) about the role of the Legislature, and we hear so much prating about the alleged respect in which he and his colleagues hold the Legislature but, Mr.

Speaker, when it comes to the eating of the pudding - and the proof of the pudding, as Your Honour is well a1vare, is in the eating - we see that on the other side they lack respect and in fact it is not going too far to say as my friend from LaPoile just did, that if hon. gentlemen opposite had their way there would be no Legislature when it came to financial matters, that once a year or so we would simply ratify - or maybe not even be asked to ratify, we would simply be informed and then we could do what we wished.

And we all know that this government has long ago flung aside contemptuously any feeling they ever had in support of that great principle of representative and responsible government, a decent respect for the opinions of mankind. This government has no respect for the opinions of mankind; they have become arrogant, we saw that in the Bellevue by-election. That letter that the Premier had carried around is nothing less than arrogance. It is the wor}~ o-= _, ~~tulant, power-mad politic ian. ~'ffi. J · CARI'ER: ?.ubbish, rubbish, rubbish! MR. ROBE?.TS: ,~!r.

Speaker, the hon. gentleman from Rubbish has returned ?~~in. MR. FLIGHT: Rubbish has returned again . 3294

, April l3, 1981 Tape 1194 EC - 2 MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I once again say that I have only a few minutes in which to enlighten the House and if the hon. the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) chooses not to be enlightened I cannot help that, Sir. As I have told him many times, you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink, and in his case, you can even lead half a horse to water but you cannot make him drink. AN HON . M&"1BER: l'lhich part? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! )!R. ROBERTS: But I would ask, Mr.

Speaker, that my few humble thoughts be put before the House to bloom and perhaps to perish in the desert air, the arrid air of the hon. gentleman and his colleagues, without the benefit of his fertilization, Sir. SOME HON. MEMBERS: r4R. SPEAKER (Butt): in silence. MR. ROBERTS: Now, Mr. Speaker - Oh, oh! Order, please!

The hon. member wishes to be heard I am grateful to Your Honour for extending to me the beneficent and omnipotent protection of the Chair, Sir, that tradition that goes back so many hundreds of years to the days w·hen the Speaker '.·las taken out and shot if the Crown ·did not like the decisions of the House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: And, Sir, my friend from Y!ount Scio (Mr. Barry) and I agree on that. And ~ve •.vould be the very first, both of us, I want to assure Your Honour, to nominate Your Honour for that high honour. MR. BARRY: In some ways we have not s~e~~ed forward at all . 2'IR.

ROBERTS: .'1artyrdom, Sir, •.vould become Your Honour. The martyr's crown would sit easily on 3295

April 13, 1981 Tape 1194 EC - 3 MR . ROBERTS: Your Honour' s brm• . Now , as we were saying, Sir, the effect of

Section 3 of this bill would be to allo~• the government to do nothing more or less if they so chose than to destroy completely the ~Vhole fundamental process by which this House controls the expenditure of public money. The fundamental process, the principle, the rule , is t!'lat the gcwernment may not spend money unless the House first approves it . That is not a radical or a neiV principle , that is the very basis of parliamentary government .

We have seen g·rown up over the years a situation that is embodied in a procedure called Special Warrants ·that allo\\ts the government to spend monev for which orovision has not been made but, Sir, . - . tbat is only •,;i thin the financial or fiscal year - and in this sense they are the same, the terms are synonymous in this usage - that is only within the fiscal year and it must be covered as it is retroactively by supplementary supply . aut now we are being asked to appr~ve a procedure which would allo1v the government to make a commitment no•N to buy now goods or services to be delivered in a subsequent fiscal year, 3296

April 13, 1981 Tape No. 1195 so - 1 MR. E. ROBERTS: and there ~re no limitations on that, Sir. MR. NEARY: That is right. MR.- ROBERTS : Now the hon. and pious gentleman from St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) in due course will drag himself to his feet and will unburden himself of assurances that he is holy, that his master is thrice holy and that such a heinous or heinous, as Your Honour would prefer.crime would never cross their minds. The clear untroubled brows of the ministry, Sir, would never be perturbed l;JY that kind of action.

Nonetheless, they come before the House and they are asking us to give them the power - and the words really are quite sweeping; not•.vi thstanding any other provision of this act." So in other words, all the Financial Administration Act is taken up and thrown aside, forget all the so-called counter measures and all th~ cheques and balances put in. Notwithstanding any other provision of this act~ So in other words, the first seven words of the

section we are asked to amend throw aside the entire Financial Administration Act. And that is why they are there, of course, they are n~~ there by accident, the draftsman did not just simply say, well_,that has a nice euphonious ring to it, we will simply put those words in to give it a little better rhythm and when law clerks down before the court, Sir, are reading it in metered rhyme,it will sound better with those words 'notwithstanding any other provision of this act'. No, they are there to wipe aside the Financial Administration Act and they is what they do.

In any event, once we dispose of the Financial Administration Act we have a gentleman known as the Lieutenant-Governor in Council who, of course, is nothing more or less than the Cabinet and in the dictatorship which we now have, that is the Premier. We have a legal dictatorship,a very, very autocratic gentleman, the Premier, 3 2 9 7 r.

April 13, 1981 Tape No. 1195 SD - 2 MR. ROBERTS: running the government and let us n-ever forget. It is no longer th.e Queen's government in the Premier's eyes, it is my government. And if the first person singular was ever to be dropped - if something were to happen to the Premier's mind that were to take aside that part of the brain which makes the lips and the tongue form the word that is the first person singular pronoun, the Premier, Sir, would be inarticulate. He would not be able to speak if he could not use the word 'I' or the pronoun 'my'. He wouid not be able to.

And, of course, when he .uses this.word constantly as he does, it is no longer the Queen's government as far as he is concerned- everywhere else in Canada it is the Queen's government- MR. NEARY: MR. ROBERTS: 'my' ministry. MR. NEARY: The Lieutenant-Governor - - the Lieutenant-Governor says He was wrong, the Lieutenant Governor was wrong 142 times. MR. ROBERTS: When he said 'my ministry'? MR. NEARY: That is right. MR. ROBERTS: Of course, he was. The Lieutenant- Governor was correct constitutionally but wrong in the eyes of our Premier.

And our Premier using it simply reveals what is going on in his mind exactly as one would if one took a little kaleidoscope and shook it up and saw the coloured pattern that resulted. You would see the Premier's mind as clearly as one would see that confused and convoluted pattern in the kaleidoscope when the Premier uses the word 'I'. We do have an autocratic government. The Premier thinks it is benevolent - perhaps it is - all dictators think it is benevolent, they always have. And the Premier also thinks it is justified, that all dictators have always felt they were justified.

Of course they are but the fact remains the Lieutenant-Governor in Council, so here we are, it is the Premier . 3298 ' .

, April 13, 1981 Tape No. 1195 SD - 3 MR. ROBERTS: So we have now swept aside the entire Financial Administration Act. The whole legal structure by which we are governed in financial matters is now aside and we are down to one man, the Premier. What may he do?

He may authorize an agreement to be entered into for the purchase of goods or services to be delivered in a subsequent fiscal year as long as - oh, as long as, some limiting words - as long as what? - "as the payment is due in a subsequent fiscal year and the minister or the deputy minister or other officers in charge is, in the opinion of that person, necessary to make the agreement at that time". So all we need now is for a minister - let us take the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), a gentleman of intellect and of integrity - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR.

ROBERTS: - and he says, 'In my opinion, it is necessary to make a commitment in the 1993 fiscal year to spend $562 million to buy out Nickersons' - let us assume, let us take our example now - and he signs a paper saying 'in my opinion' and then the Lieutenant-Governor in Council may make that law, may make an agreement that would stand under the authority of this act, would stand in the courts of this Province and be enforced in the courts of this Province. And what would we here in the Legislature - oh, in due course, under the provision of

section 5 we will be told about it within three days of the authorization if the House is sitting. They can 3299

April 13, 1981 Tape No.ll96 EL - 1 MR. ROBERTS: even do this while the House is sitting,I£ this bill were.to pass and in due course be given assent to become law, the boys · could nip downstairs now after this session and they could pass that order, saying that $562 million will be expended in the 1993 fiscal year. And that, Mr. Speaker, meets all of the tests of this

section of the legislation. And that then is a binding legal commitment on the government of this Province and upon the Legislature of this Province and upon the Treasury of this Province and upon the taxpayers of· this Province. Now, I say to you, Sir, what possible justification is there for that? What possible justification can this ministry or any ministry have for arrogating onto them­ selves this kind of power? Now, they may say, 'oh, we are not going to use it, we are reasonable men'. They can even say they are reasonable women and they may beljeve that.

Maybe they have no use for it right now but why do they want the power? Nhy should we, in this Legislature,give them that power? Why should we give them the power to spend money into the future '"hen they have shown no need for it? Why should we give them the power to bind this Province for many years to come? What con­ ceivable, what possible reason could there be?

I could see if they wanted to make a forward contact, they come back to the House- :nd there are hundreds of examples in the statute books where this House debates a matter and adopts a bill and act to ratify an agreement between the government and XY, whoever it may be, and that then binds us for years and that is acceptable. The House can do that i£ it wishes and if the government wished to do something along those lines, they will have it done. They do have the majority, they have it to their backs. 3300 .....

April 13, 1981 Tape No. 1196 EL - 2 MR. ROBERTS: But it is done in the open, not in the secrecy of the Cabinet chamber. Oh,they say they will report it to the House but, Sir, that is locking the barn door after the horse is stolen because by the time it is reported to the House, the deal is made , legally binding, signed, sealed, del­ ivered. Whip off t6 the courts of the Province and either get an injunction or get specific performance or get damages. All the3e remedies will be open. So, I say to the President of the Council (W.

Marshall), why does he want this power?- to buy now a few pencils for the next fiscal year, to come in at the end of February and say let us make a deal now1 we are going to use 5,000 pencils in the next six months in the government, we can get a price on them, let us go ahead and bring them in? Is that why they want to do it? If so, why not put in words to limit it, expenditures of not more than $20,000, or put in expenditures to be spent in not more than six months into the next fiscal year. But all this says is a subsequent fiscal year, it could be a hundred years from now. Now, how does that square?

How can that square with responsible government? I say to my friend from St. John's Centre(Br. McNicholas), a man who thinks about these issues, how is he going to explain this to himself, to his con­ stituents? Most people in Newfoundland do not even know we are here and if the truth is known, this kind of issue is not of a great deal of public concern. But it ought to be of concern to us. We have a duty. We sought electoral support. We accepted election. We took the oath to become a member and we sit here. And we have a responsibility to ourselves and to the House, to our constituents and to our posterity.

So, why do the government want this? What conceivable reason could they want, can they give? What justification can they present to ask for a grant of power that 3301

April 13, 1981 Tape No. 1196 . EL - 3 ~lR. ROBERTS : first of all wipes away the Fin~ ancial Administration Act in its totality,completely, gone, forget it. and gives them the power, even when the House is sitting - they do not even want to come before the House and say ? we have a situation, we have a deal, we can make a good deal for this Province. Give us the legislative authority, Even while theaouse is sitting they can use this procedure that would enable them to bind this Province for a hundred years to come.

Whathappened to the principle in our constitution in this Province that says, 'the public cheque, the Public Treasury shall not be bound without the prior consent of the Legislature? l'i'hat ~appened to the principle that the Law Officers of the Crown have established time and time again,that there shall be no contract of more than twelve months duration unless it has first s~ecifically been approved by the Legislature,or unless there is a specific grant of authority? You realize if this was done- 3.nd my friend from LaPoile (S. Neary) is within earshot - ~~.

Robert Cole could have been Qired forever, the ten year contract would have been legal. Goods and services - he was supplying goods or services or both, ~nd yet the Premier himself boasts how he bought his way out of that, it only cost us $40,000 or SSO,OOO whatever, but the Action Group could have been con- tractual forever under this, with no comeback. .-.' 3302

April 13, 1981 Tape 1197 PK - 1 MR. ROBERTS: No~ it is wrong. This government, you know, Mr. Speaker, is as arrogant, as smug, and a self-satisfied a group of men as I have ever seen, and I have seen arrogant, smug, and self-satisfied governments . MR. HISCOCK: .(Inaudible) pure arrogance. MR. ROBERTS: But this particular government, Sir, it reflects the Premier. The Premier's belief is if he wants something done, therefore, it is wise and proper to do it. And furthermore if one choose to debate it, one choose to question it, one is not only being wrong and mistaken, but one is bei r~q immoral. AL\T HON.

MEMBER: MR. ROBERTS: And anti-Newfoundland. And anti-Newfoundland. You know, that was reflected in the Bellevue by-election. The people of Bellevue gave them - well, it is unparliamentary to- say •.vhat they said to the government, they told them where to go and what to do~ And that letter - the great in~ellectual intenrity, the new revolution, the new reform of our Premier. MR. LUSH: MR. ROBERTS: The new look. The new look.

The kind of tactics that were reprehensible thirty years ago, and if they wer 8 used by some of our predecessors in the Liberal Party , as they may well have been, that does not justify them now. John A. MacDonald took bribes. Does tbat mean that- who is the Leader of the Tory Party this week? ~r. Clark in Ottawa would be justified in taking bribes~ No. What John A. did a hundred years ago is not relevant today, what Mr. Smallwood did thirty or forty years ago is not relevant today. The Premier talks of reform and of conflict of interest and of extending, and yet 3.3G3

April l3, 1981 Tape U97 PK - 2 MR. ROBERTS : what do we see? \Vhat do we see? We see a letter being sent out to Bellevue that i s straight blackmail . Of course , tha t is no·t ne1·1, he tried the same thing i n St . Mar y ' s - The Capes when he stood on a platform and said, " I 1.,i 11 cut it off at the Salmonier Line . " AN HON . MEt1BER : Oh , oh ! MR . ROBERTS : And hon . gentlemen over there ·.·•ho slavi.shly endorse him , ~.,ho have no choice, t.'1ey ha•1e so sold their pol itical souls, that: they have no choice except to slavishly endorse him., lavish admira .tin n unon him· - MR . HISCO C K : ~IR .

ROBEi\'I'S : subservience . SOHE HON . ~JEMBERS : HR. ROBERTS : Yes . - admiration amounting to Oh, oh! Read their speeches . Read their speec;:hes . Li sten to them . And now the great reform administration comes before the House and asks us to approve a bill to wipe a1•ay the Financial Administration Act and to allow the government to ente r inc.o contracts - ~h t:here is a great check o.n them, the opinion of a minister . I• ell , Mr . Speaker, · my opinion of some of the minisc.ers over c.here is ~~at: c.heir opinion, Sir, is not worth a great: deal, a nd 1 de not think that is a great deal to rely •Jpon .

If the govern ment h ave some r;eason why they •.van t t o make a contract: binding chis ?rovince inca the future chen lee t~em come before the ~ouse, and let them ask the House for it . M'R . ROBERTS : ?1r . Speake .r , the bill is a dange r ous one . The or;inci?le is ~ dangerous Qne. I do not 3.3 04

April 13, 1981 Tape 1197 PK - 3 MR. ROBERTS: understand how men like the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) and the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) -t can understand my friend from St. John's North (Mr. Carter), he would vote for anything if the Premier told him to do it and he frequently has. I mean he is ahle to· do these mehtal convolutions. And the abasement - his idolatry of the Premier amounts to abasement. MR. FLIGHT: That is right. MR. ROBERTS: But, Mr. Speaker, I do not understand how gentlemen like the Minister of Justice, the President of the Council, my ·friend from Ferryland (Mr.

Power), my friend from Naskaupi (Mr. Goudie), the present member from Naskaupi, the gentleman from Deer Lake - I am sorry, Humber Valley (Mr. House) is the name of the seat - ~ how they can vote for this legislation. No reason shown for it, just an arrogation of power onto to the government unwarranted, unjustified, reprehensible. There is another

section in the bill that reflects the same attitude. Have a look Your Honour at section (4), "Where the government commences an action or makes a counterclaim for money as a debt due the government or where there is a criminal charge in relation to the money of or due the govp 1·nment." The government can hold on to the money. And,it goes on, "the person against whom that action is commenced claims an amount of money from the government." Now, you know, that appears to be a great thing, and it may be directed to a particular situation, I am not aware of it, but it may be.

What the House is being asked to do is to determine guilt or innocence. T~e government can hold on to that money. It 3305 I •

April 13, 1981 Tape 1197 !?K - 4 ~1R. ROBERTS: cannot do it anywhere else. If my hon. friend for Mount Scio (Mr . Barry) gets in trouble with his savoury farm for paying workers less than the minimum •.-1ag~, as he has been kno1·tn - A.'l HON. ME11BEJR: :1R. ROBERTS: St. John 's North. St. John's North, I am sorry. - as he has been kno1~n to do on occasion, i.: he gees into trouble with that and somebody sues him for debt, you know, he cannot take benefit behind this kind of princi91e. Why should the government? \'lhy should hon. gentl~men have this kind of power? They are not even going to pay interest.

So if they owe somebody some money - let us suppose they ot•e me some money and they take an action against: me and they chen can hold on~o che money . vihy? Is that not ?rejudging che guilt or the innocence? It is a ne~ principle in our law. I always thought, perhaps naively, that th.1.ngs like, 33 '.}6

April 13, 1981 Tape No. 1198 IB-1 MR. ROBERTS: you know, a person is innocent until he is judged guilty in a criminal matter, that that holds. Or that in a civil ~atter until the action was established the claim was not established, until the court had ruled a debt is not owing unless and until a court says it is owing. Again it reflects the thinking, the mental cast of this administration. lvell, Sir, I suspect this bill will pass. It will not get my support.

You know, you get bills that have some good and some bad in them and you have to weigh up and decide whether the good outweighs the bad, in which case one can support the bill. or whether the bad outweighs the good. In this case, in my view, the bad outweighs the good and I will vote against the bill. That is not going to cause anybody over there any trouble. In a few minutes we will hear some pious pratings. We will be told that this is a perfectly reasonable thing. I will say we will never get any satisfactory explanation because there is not one, there cannot be one.

And I will say this clause will be pushed through by the government. It is a reflection of their approach - MR. HISCOCK: "An Act To Amend The Financial-''. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, my friend from St. John's North (Mr. Carter) persists in interrupting despite Your Honour's admonitions.As well as being borish, he is rude. And as well as being rude he is inconsequential. And as well as being inconsequential he is a damned nuisance and on top of that he is acting like a child. Now,I do not interrupt him.

If he said something tha~was worthy of riposte I 'N'ould, And I appreciate the courtesy he is doing me, but Lf he would but control himself in patience, he would possess himself in patience,as the old people used to say, who knows, good things may even come to him in the fullness of time. As I was saying before the most recent interruption from the irrelevant gentleman from 3307

April 13, 1981 Tape ~To. 1198 IB-2 MR. ROBERTS: St. John's North (Mr. Carter), the, point of this bill is that the bad outv1eighs the good. The government are going to put this clause through. They have got a majority and they have got the cast of mind that says they can do what they \vant with a majority. They reflect the Premier in that. The Premier thinks the House of Assembly is at best a nuisance, at ~1orst considerably more than that. He thinks the electorqte is at best a nuisance, at worst considerably more than that.

And the general attitude of this administration is 'Whatever WP want we shall do', and they think they 'are justified simply because they are a majority. Nell under the parliamentary system they will have their way. >~'e will see what hatJpens when next the tJeople of the Province are asked to judge. For my

part I think the quicker we can have that judgement of the people in this Province the better it would be. And any time hon. gentlemen opposite feel so completely carried away that they think we should have then I would invite the Premier to call upon His Honour, as only the Premier can, on~y the Premier has the power, and let us have a dissolution.And let the Premier write his of~ensive little blackmailing letters which is what they are, threats, blackmail, not worthv cf ~he dignity of the Premier of this ~rcvince.certainly not worth y of the member for Green Bay. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

ROBERTS: Fcom what he has told us about himself- we know he is a great fellow, he has told us so repeatedly in every way he can. This is a bad bill, Mr. Speaker. It is a bad bill. The principle of these sections is an offensive one. There is no possible justification for it. And for my

part I am going to vote against it and I shall qsk my colleagues ~o do the same. Thank you, Sir. MR. SPEAKER (BU'IT) : The hon. ?resident of the Council. 3.3S8 ('

April 13, 1981 Tape No . 1198 IB - 3 Sott!E RO!'ol . M~1BERS : Rear, hear! MR . ~tARS HALL : Mr . Speaker, I have no intention of speakin g for a long period of time. But in the absence of the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) there are a few words I would like to say 1 particularly about the remarks made by the hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle ()lr . ~oberts) . I shall not deal with the remarks made by the han . member for LaPoile (Mr . Neary) beca~se they are the same remarks that have ···"':~ made from time to time in this House and the answers are the same .

So I just refer to about chirty or forty or fifty editions of Hansard ane we can take his ':emarks as ans\o1ered by that . The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle made a speech,as the hon. member has made many speeches in this House,some of them , 'ike all of our speeches.good, some of tha~ bad, some of t hem mediocre . I ~ould suggest. Mr . Speaker, that the observations he ~ade particularly t•ith respect to the provisions of

section ( Jl of the oill, "An . ct To Amend The Financial !Xdministration Ac~", could be entitled,really , much ado about nothing. 9ecause, Mr . Speaker, the bon . gentleman has tried to concoct a case and to oresent cer tain facts and to 9ive his interoretation of the Eac~s and 3309

April l3, 1981 Tape No. 1199 GS - 1 MR. MARSHALL: tries to make this bill as · being an invidious bill and one not worthy of any adrnin- istration, certainly not this. His objection, Mr. Speaker, is to the alleged use of the bill for the purpose of derogating from the rights of this Legislature and the rights of Parliament. One of the quotations he made is that by providing in this particular case that the Lieutentant-Governor in Council may on recommendations of Treasury Board authorize an agreement to be entered into to purchase goods and services to be delivered in a subsequent fiscal year - that by that harmless

section we are destroying the whole fundamental process by which the House votes money. On this, Mr. Speaker, I draw issue with the hon. member. What this amounts to, Mr. Speaker, really, all that this particular

section authorizes is the ordering of goods and services such as, for example, hospital supplies and non-corporations for the ensuing year, for the purpose of ordering supplies, goods and services for the Labrador stores, Northern Labrador stores and what have youj because, in fact, Mr. Speaker, it regularizes what has been done not just by this administration but by previous and the previous, previous administration because it had to as a necessity and a fact of life.

The previous provision in the Financial Administration Act and its successor, the Revenue and Audit Act, provided that a deputy minister or other officer charged with the administration of a head of expenditure shall not - there was a prohibition, Mr. Speaker - enter into any commitment unless appropriation exists or is in a sufficient amount to meet the commitment. So, Mr. Speaker, in other words, at the end of March 31st . or if for some reason or other the government had run out of money in March or in February, there was no way that the deputy minister could order supplies, necessary "' "" A J- : '.J

.U.pril 13, 1981 Tape No. 1199 GS - 2 NR. MARSHALL: supplies for hospitals, necessary supplies in the Department of Social Services or in the Department of Municipal Affairs or Northern Development or what have you unless this House had.approved of the appro­ priation. And this, in this day and age, Mr. Speaker, is obviously impractical. For instance, Mr. Speaker, as we have seen this year - and supply ran out on March 31st - interi~ supply was brought into this House. It was not voted until April the 8th and, Mr.

Speaker, this government 1vas not prepared to, as in the words of one hon. member of this House, let them suffer. This governme~t, ~r. Speaker, has to be sure that government continues on and the normal affairs of government are conducted. So, for the hon. gentleman to make a capital case of this is patently ridiculous, particularly when you consider that this legislation does not, and I repeat, does not in any way take away the authority of this House with respect to the matter.

Because when these contracts are entered into, they are not allowed to be entered into willy-nilly by the head of the department as the head of the department may enter into contracts where he has budgetary approval zor same. ~o, this is greeted as a special case. It has to be done, Mr. Speaker, on special recommendation of the Treasury Board; it has to be done on

an act of the Lieutenant-Gover~or in Council and, furthermore, Mr. Speaker, this Legislature is recognized, as it has been recognized by this government in all of its legislative measures, by providing within the appointed time that such actions have to ~e tabled in this House of Assembly so that the public kno1v it. Perfectly reasonable and perfectly rational, Mr. Speaker, it has reference to the House of Assembly and it is to be used only, Mr. Speaker, for the purpose of necessary contracts with respect to goods and services 3 3 '

April 13, 1981 Tape NE> . 1199 GS - 3 HR . t•L;).,RSHALL: To show the heights and the lengths to which the hon . gentleman would wish to try to colour this act, he draws a reference to supplementary supply and says that supplementary supply - this is not the same as it. Well, what is supplementary supply - it is e:~actly the same thing. The only thing is you spend the money beforehand, ~tr .

Speaker, before it is authorized and you come into this House after\.,rards with a warrant indicating and dra win g to tbe attention of t he people's Rouse the fact that you have spent more money and that you have voted another warra nt under the Financial Administration Act. All this act does is very harmlessly - .tt is 3 31 2

,, April 13, 1981 Tape No. 1200 RA - 1 MR. MARSHALL: effect,very kindred, to special warrants for which we get supplementary supply by merely authoriz­ ing the contracts to be entered into so necessary supplies can be obtained in order to operate essential services in this Province. And to use the analogy, and I think I am quoting the hon. member correctly, he said 'This can be us~d to buy out St. Nickerson•s. Well, Mr. Speaker, this cannot be used to buy out Nickerson's. The

section very clearly says,'An agreement to be entered into for the purchase of goods or services: Now, the purchase of Nickerson's is much more than goods or services,it is the purchase of a gigantic business. And I do wish that if hon. members would wish to make comments on sections of the bill,that they could well, Mr. Speaker, read the bill before they make such comments. Because it is cas'ting, Mr. Speaker, a shadow on this bill which is certainly not there.

It is a harmless bill for the purpose of purchasing necessary goods and services to which reference is made by the Legislature and to which such con­ tracts are only made after recommendations by Treasury Board, after approval by the entire Cabinet. MR. MARSHALL: Then it is done but after- wards the actions of Cabinet. as all actions of the govern­ ment in this particular government,are submitted to the scrutiny of the House and through the House to the public. 11R. S . NEARY: (Inaudible) MR. MARSHALL: In conclusion listen to the hon. member, Mr. Speaker.

I get a great joy out of listen­ ing to the hon. members there opposite,, the same ·:;r:Jv=::::-;J,nen·t that supported measures where you could borrow billions and billions in secret Cabinet session without reference to this Legislature,now having the consummate gall to get up in 3 3 1 3

April 13, 1981 Tape No. 1200 RA - 2 MR. MARSHALL: this House and champion the cause of the Legislature - SOME HON. MEMBERS: What government? MR. MARSHALL: '!'.he government the han. member was a member of. The han. member' qet up, they talk about sanctimonity, Mr. Speaker, they get up and they talk about- SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. MARSHALL: -it as if year one occured in 1971 or 1972 - SOME HON. MEHBERS: Oh, oh! MR. MARSHALL: - or 1980. The fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, these - r1R. S. NEARY: (Inaudible) MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: --------- - same people who object to such - HR.

S. NEARY: (Inaudible) embezzlers. MR. MARSHALL: - these same people,Mr. Speaker, who object to a harmless

section such as this in the act were the same people-and complain about there being no refer- ence to the Legislature and the destruction of the whole fundamental process by which the House votes money- were the same han. crowd,Mr. Speaker, when they were in govern­ ment,which were prepared to, and in fact did, squander and pledge billions of dollars of this money through borrow- ing in secret Cabinet session and the money was borrowed and the money was spent.~r. Speaker, before the people of this Province knew what happened to them. So as I say it ill J:er.ooves them to get up-· and they talk about sanctimony and all that-~o talk about a

section of this nature which is so harrr-1ess and so necessary and in effect,regularizes what has been done in the Province for a long period of time,and which is so necesary for the effective operation 3 31 4

April 13, 1981 i'lR .. ~·lARSHALL: services. Tape No. 1200 RA - 3 of hospitals and other social With respect to

section 4, Mr. Speaker, which i~ a

section authorizing the govern­ ment to withhold monies from people who the government alleges owes money to them. Well, Mr. Speaker, there is only the ordinary , legal right that any particular citizen has with respect to a counterclaim, that if you have a counterclaim against somebody you hold back the money pending the resolution of the whole issue.

As a matter of fact, I sometimes think that some of the people get a little bit too zealous in the need for legis­ lative matters in the bill and I do not really see whether this is absolutely essential . because the right was there anyway, but all you are doing in this right is incorporat- ing the usual statutory right. It expanas it a little bit, ~r. Speaker, where it says that where there is a criminal charge in relation to money of and due the government. Well, Mr. Speaker, that is essential as well and that is necessary. MR. S.

NEARY: (Inaudible) MR. ~lARSHALL: The hon. member for LaPoile(Mr.Neary) gets up with C1R. S. NEARY: MR. MARSHALL: great glee with his imaqined - A.B. Walsh trial. Yes, it was the A.B.Walsh trial. with his imagined wrongs of the previous administration. But we have actual facts that I will not go into now, Mr. Speaker, of persons who had dealings with the previous ad­ ministration who became subject to criminal charges being laid and had the bare-faced gall, consummate gall to try to hook money out of this government for alleged civil debts.And that is what that is aimed at because if we want to give instances.Mr.

Speaker, we will. :!R. J. CARTER: Do, do. 3: '! c, . ....

April 13, 1981 Tape No: 1200 RA - 4 MR . MARSHALL: However -no , I will not - this bill is a very forward bil~ . As I say, the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle (~tr. Robetts ) when he spoke, you know,made much ado about nothing, tried to fabricate a capital case out of this, that we were trying to establish a dictatorsh ip, that we were trying to 3316 ...

April 13, 1981 Tape No. 1201 ow - l MR. W. MARSHALL: denigrate the House of Assembly, that we were trying to destroy the fundamental process by which the House operates. But, Mr. Speaker, I do not think a bill of this nature warrants that type of criticism. It is a forward bill. Mr. Speaker,what it does 1 in effect , by the one

section to which the major objection has been taken -:1at it really does is it codifies what has happened in the past and makes ( ag ular that which happens in the past and after all which is necessary, because just because March 31st. comes and goes does not mean the end of the world comes. Government has to carry on,as everyone else,and this gives the government the right and the manner and the propriety with which to carry on 'Jut at the same time preserving the integrity and the respect for this House by requiring these contracts to be tabled in the House

whereas in the past they were entered into, by all adminis'tratiors past 1 as a matter of necessity but this House was never aware of it. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : MR. E. HISCOCK: The han. member for Eagle River . Mr. Speaker, in listening to the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) he almost had me convinced that there really was nothing wrong with this bill and that we should go on and pass it. MR. S. NEARY: It will only do away with interim supply. MR. E. HISCOCK: But as the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) just said the bill itself could do away with interim supply.

There would be no need for interim suppl y . I have heard the member for St. John's East sa y many, manv times the respect of the Chair, the role of th e Legislature - that '"'e have a very, very, very open government, that we have a new image, we have a new Premier even though the majority of the members in the Cabinet were also members of '·'r. ~·1oores' administration. 3 3 1 7

·' April 13, 1981 Tape No. 1201 DW - 2 MR. F.. HISCOCK: And now the people of this Province are asked to pass bills like this, bills that will give the Lieutenant-Governor in Council untold power. We have heard this administration,by way of the former Premier 1 downgrade Mr. Smallwood's administration ~nd say the country was going bankrupt, the country was going bankrupt. Even though we ran the Provinc .e for twenty-one years and only had a debt of $700 million, we were going bankrupt. Now, after ten years we are going towards $3.5 billion debt. And more,an Act ~s we now see before us, Mr.

Speaker, we could see that this debt could be tripled even more and more and more because they do not have to come back to the House and ask for permission. The Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) said the bill is quite ~ harmless, we already have the clause in it of Special \<larrants. I would ask the Minister of Finance now what is wrong with a special ',.;arrant? Why is it that this government has to be in such a hurry that it cannot go and ask for a special warrant if it takes two or three hours or two or three days? Why is it that we need to be on top of it?

Is it that we need to be on top of the financial markets of the world, the bond markets? Surely, Mr. Speaker, there are other ways of doing it lvithout bringing in, "Notwithstanding any other provisions of this Act, the Lieutenant-Governor in Council may on the written recommendation of the board authorize an agreement to be entered into for the 9urchase of goods or services to be delivered in a subsequent fiscal year.' Why is it, Mr. Speaker, that we need this? What is wrong with their special warrants? And I would say, Mr. Speaker, there is nothing wrong with it.

What we are seeing is we are seeing this government giving total disregard to the Parlia- ment of this Province, we are seeing the government giving total disregard to the Opposition, to the Cabinet and to ...

,l.pril lJ, 1981 Tape No. 1201 mv - 3 t-tR. E. HISCOCK: the private members on both sides . 1-le see a government that is expanding each day in its own image, its own arrogance, its own ego of the Premier. It is not so long ago in this Province,if people do not realize . that the Premier replaced Mr. Moores and that he was in power for three months and our own party, the Liberal Party.was having a leadership convention. And with that a movement ,.,ent on the go to get Mr . Jamieson back from Ottawa. Nhat ended up happening?

Did we go throu gh the democratic process of letting the Opposition have their conventi on? No . The Premier, as soon as he heard ~hat Mr. Jamieson was coming back,in his tactics, 3319

April 13, 1981 r·1R. HISCOCK: one with the knee. MR. 1-IOORES : MR. HISCOCK: Tape No. 1202 IB-1 called an election, gave us I Ran scared. And not only ran scared. But now, Mr. Speaker, those are the tactics the people of this Province have to deal with. Those are also the tactics that he used down in St. Mary's-The Capes of sitting on the chest. They are also the ones that he used down in Burgeo-Bay d' Espoir of sending down civil se