Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 57 (37th Legislature, 3rd Session)

37-3-57

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session- Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LII No. 57 - 1:30 p.m., Thesday, July 2, 2002

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, Hon. ASPER, Linda BARRETI, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold HA WRANIK, Gerald HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKJ, Bonnie LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWAY,Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie MURRAY, Stuart NEV AKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, Hon. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, Hon. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott, Hon. STEFANSON, Heather STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charles wood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Lac du Bonnet Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Kirkfield Park Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Cam1an Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Ross mere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Tuxedo Dauphin-Rob lin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C.

N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

297 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, July 2, 2002 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Transcona-Springfield School Division Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Diane Walker, Tracey Hawrysh, Vema Arnold and others pray ing that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request the Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell) to reverse the decision to split the Transcona Springfield School Division and allow it to remain as a whole or to consider immediately convening the Board of Reference to decide the matter.

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Transcona-Springfield School Division Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler), I have reviewed the petition and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Mr. Speaker: The Clerk please read. Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): The peti tion of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth THAT on November 8, 2001, the Minist er of Education (Mr.

Caldwell) announced a split in the Transcona-Springfield School Division but despite repeated requests has been unable to identify any benefits of this decision to the students and taxpayers of said school division; and THAT this decision was not preceded by adequate public consultation as outlined in sec tion 7 of The Public Schools Act; and THAT this decision would result in signi ficant hardships for the students in both Trans cona and Springfield that would affect the quality of their education; and THAT the proposal by the Minister of Edu cation on February 12 , 2002, neither alleviates nor remedies these hardships; and THAT this decision results in an increased financial burden on the taxpayers of both the Transcona-Springfield School Division and the province of Manitoba; and THAT on March 13 , 2002, the number of resident electors required by The Public Schools Act requested the Minister of Education to con vene a Board of Reference to decide the matter.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Legislative Assem bly request the Minister of Education to reverse the decision to split the Transcona-Springfield School Division and allow it to remain as a whole or to consider immediately convening the Board of Reference to decide the matter. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Standing Committee on Law Amendments Fifth Report Mr. Doug Martindale (Chairperson): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Fifth Report of the Committee on Law Amendments. An Honourable Member: Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispense.

Your Standing Committee on Law Amendments presents the following as its Fifth Report.

2972 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 2, 2002 Meetings: Your committee met on the following occasions: Tuesday, June 25, 2002, at 6.:30 p. m. Wednesday, June 26, 2002, at 6:30p.m. Both meetings were held in Room 255 of the Legislative Building. Matters Under Consideration: Bill 14-The Public Schools Modernization Act (Public School s Act Amended)!Loi sur Ia modernisation des ecoles publiques (modi fication de Ia

Loi sur les ecoles publiques) Membership Resignations I Elections: At the June 25, 2002, meeting, your committee elected Ms. Korzeniowski as Vice-Chairperson. At the June 26, 2002, meeting, your committee elected Mr. Rondeau as Vice-Chairperson. Substitutions received prior to commencement of the meeting held on June 2 5, 2002: Han. Mr. Caldwell for Mr. Aglugub Ms. Allan for Mr. Dewar Han. Ms. Barrett for Han. Ms. Friesen Mr. Struthers for Mr. Nevakshonojf Ron. Mr. Smith (Brandon West) for Mr. Sshellenberg Ms. Korzeniowski for Ron. Mr. Mackintosh Mr. Gil/eshammer for Mr. Hawranik Mr. Tweed for Mr. Laurendeau Mr.

Loewen for Mr. Schuler Substitutions received prior to commencement of the meeting held on June 26, 2002: Mr. Jennissen for Ms. Allan Mr. Nevakshonojffor Ms. Korzeniowski Mr. Rondeau for Han. Mr. Smith (Brandon West) Mr. Laurendeau for Mr. Loewen Mr. Cummings for Mr. Tweed Public Presentations: Your committee heard 39 presentations on Bill 14, The Public Schools Modernization Act (Public School s Act Amended)/Loi sur Ia modernisation des ecoles publiques (modifi cation de Ia

Loi sur les ecoles publiques) from the following individuals and organizations: Ruth Ann Furgala, Evergreen School Division Malcolm Jolly, Brandon School Division No. 40 James Durston, Dauphin-Ochre School Area No.

I Bobbi-Lynn Geekie, Birdtail River Teachers' Association Peter Wohlgemut, Rhineland Teachers' Association Craig Blagden, Prairie Rose Teachers' Associat ion Andrew Peters, Private Citizen Lauren Andrushko, Private Citizen Greg Andrushko, Private Citizen Hilda Froese, Garden Valley School Division Paul Wiebe, Private Citizen Gladys Hayward Williams, Private Citizen Diane Duma, Manitoba Association of Parent Councils Karen Carey, Springfield Schools Parent Council Peter Williams, Private Citizen Maja Kathan, Ecole Dugald School Robin Glowacki, Private Citizen Layna Penner, Private Citizen Doraine Wachniak, Private Citizen Diana Risbey, Private Citizen Norah Bailey, Agassiz Teachers' Association John Friesen, Private Citizen Maria Kantyluk, Private Citizen Linda Archer and Caroline Duhamel, Manitoba Association of School Trustees Terry Egan and Sandra Oakley, CUPE Manitoba Karen Velthuys, Craig Stahlke, and John Beaumont, Fort Garry School Division Dennis Wishanski and Elizabeth Kozak, St.

James Assin iboia School Division Christopher Saunders, Springfield Parent Council Otto Mehl, Private Citizen Candace Daher, Private Citizen Gloria James, Private Citizen Brian Ardern, Manitoba Teachers Society Kristine Barr and David Bell, Winnipeg School Division No. 1 Bob Land, Private Citizen Anita Chapman, Louis Riel School Division Murray Grafton, Louis Riel Teachers' Associat ion Roland Stankevicius, River East Teachers' Association Marijka Spytkowsky, Transcona-Springfield Teachers ' Association Virginia Larsson, Private Citizen

July 2, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2973 Written Submissions: Your committee received eight written sub missions on Bill 14, The Public Schools Modernization Act (Public Schools Act Amend ed)/Loi sur Ia modernisation des ecoles publiques (modification de Ia

Loi sur les ecoles publiques) from the following individuals and organizations: Monica Ptak, Private Citizen John Ehinger, Private Citizen Karen Lalonde, Private Citizen Kathy Andersson, Private Citizen Susan Choquette, Private Citizen Glen Anderson, Private Citizen Zeeba Loxley, Community Education and Development Association John Shebniski, Duck Mountain School Division Bills Considered and Reported: Bill 14 - The Public Schools Modernization Act (Public Schools Act Amended) Your committee agreed to report this bill with the following amendments. THAT the proposed

section 12.2, as set out in

section 10 of the Bill, be renumbered as sub

section 12. 2(1) and that the following be added as subsection 12.2(2): Time for making subsequent regulations 12.2(2) The power to make regulations under subsection (1) may only be exercised on or before August 1, 2003. THAT the proposed sub clause 12. 2(c)(i), as set out in

section 10 of the Bill, be amended by adding "as a result of the formation, continu ation, amalgamation, or dissolution of one or more new or former divisions" after ''pupils". THAT the proposed subclause 12.2(c)(ii), as set out in

section 10 of the Bill, be amended by adding "or former" after "new". THAT the subsection 22(2) of the Bill be amended by striking out "each of the next two years " and substituting "the next fiscal year". THAT the French version of

section 24(1) of the Bill be amended by striking out "Division scolaire de Red River Valley" wherever it occurs and substituting "Division scolaire Vallee de Ia Riviere-Rouge". THAT the French version of

section 24(2) of the Bill be amended by striking out "Division scolaire de Red River Valley" and substituting "Division scolaire Vallee de Ia Riviere-Rouge". Mr. Martindale: I move, seconded by the honourab le Member for Rossmere (Mr. Schell enberg), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. * (13:35 ) INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Biii41-The Manitoba Hydro Amendment Act Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Transportation and Government Ser vices (Mr. Ashton), that leave be given to introduce Bill 41, The Manitoba Hydro Amend ment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur !'Hydro Manitoba, and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Speaker: His Honour the Lieutenant Governor, having been advised of the contents of the bill, recommends it to the House and his message has been tabled. Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House. I would like to table the Lieutenant-Governor's message. Mr. Speaker: I would just like to let the House know the message has been tabled. Mr. Selinger: Mr.

Speaker, this bill amends The Manitoba Hydro Act to require Manitoba Hydro to distribute up to $288 million of its retained earnings to the Government by the end of the 2003-2004 fiscal year.

2974 LEGISL ATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA July 2, 2002 Voice Vote Mr. Speaker: All those in favour of the motion, say yea. Some Honourable Members: Yea. Mr. Speaker: All those opposed to the motion, say nay. Some Honourable Members: Nay. Mr. Speaker: In my opinion, the Yeas have it. The motion is accordingly carried. Bill 47- The Highways and Transportation Amendment Act Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Transporta tion and Government Services): I move, seconded by the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr.

Smith), that leave be given to introduce Bill 47, The Highways and Transportation Amendment Act (and that the same be now received and read a first time). His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House. Mr. Speaker, I have also tabled the message from the Lieutenant-Governor. Motion presented. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, this is another part of this Government's agenda of innovation in terms of hi ghways and transportation in Manitoba. Motion agreed to. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Gimli Rail Line Status Mr.

Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, the headline in the most recent Selkirk Journal reads: Deal to save Selkirk rail line dead. In the article, Gord Peters, the president of Cando Contracting, which has been in negoti ation to purchase the rail line which runs from Winnipeg through Selkirk up to Gimli, has pulled out of the agreement because the Doer government would force their employee-owned company to unionize its workers. Mr. Peters said, and I quote, Bill 18 is why we would not move ahead. Mr.

Speaker, why is the Doer government forcing an employee-owned company looking to expand in Manitoba to unionize? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Successor rights in contracts that are presented before the Labour Board I think have been around for a number of years. Mr. Speaker, when members opposite were in government and brought in the new regional health act they required union votes in Stein bach, Winkler, Morden, a lot of votes, under the new health act that took place. The sky is not falling. * (13:40) Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, the direct reference is to Bill 18, which was brought in by the Doer government.

It is no secret that Canadian Pacific Railway officials have expressed a desire to close the Winnipeg to Gimli short line. Central Manitoba Railway, which is owned by Cando Contracting, has been negotiating on that short line for a couple of years to make it viable, but last week Cando pulled out of that negotiation because the Doer government would not assure the employee-owned company that they would not have to unionize.

Is the Doer government simply willing to allow the CPR to shut down the rail line, which will affect a number of businesses and hundreds of jobs in the Interlake, because they do not want to unionize? Is that what the Doer government stands for? Mr. Doer: What we stand for is a government that does not interfere with a quasi-judicial body called the Manitoba Labour Board.

July 2, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2975 Employee-Owned Businesses Labour Legislation Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, the most disturbing situation is the fact this Government was warned two years ago about the effect Bill 18 would have on this jurisdiction. They were warned two years ago. At that time, I will quote what the Labour Minister said, and her quote was: We will be addressing your concerns or taking them under advisement for sure. That is what the Labour Minister said when they were warned about the impact of Bi ll 18.

Unfortunately, the Doer government has, once again, ignored the concerns of stakeholders who have expressed a real concern to the Doer government about this legislation. Why did the Doer government ignore warnings that Bill 18 would put an end to expansion of employee owned businesses in Manitoba and put ma jor Manitoba employers in jeopardy? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, this is a Leader of the Opposition who has a Finance critic who attacks the Crocus Fund, which was one of the engines for employee ownership across Manitoba. So let him not feign this new found interest for employee ownership.

They tried to kill employee ownership with their unwarranted attack on the Crocus Fund. It is not- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There was conflicting advice between OmniTRAX and the other company, Cando, on the bill when it was brought before the Legislature. We note there are many strong parts of the transportation system which are continuing to expand. Mr. Peters is negotiating with CP and with the employees. We are concerned about the outcome of that, but we are also concerned that we not interfere with the Labour Board, which is a quasi-judicial body.

Gimli Rail Line Impact on Area Businesses Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): Mr. Speaker, on June 26, shortly after learning the deal between Central Manitoba Railway and the CPR was dead, the owners of the former Seagrams distill ery in Gimli, Guinness UDV, announced they have reviewed their production and decided to consolidate the production of Crown Royal in Ontario instead of in Gimli. Mr. Speaker, I would like to table a letter dated May 27 that was sent to the Minister of Labour (Ms. Barrett) and a copy to the Premier (Mr. Doer) from Roy Eyolfson who is the plant manager at Gimli. In the letter, Mr.

Eyolfson states, and I quote, the potential to relocate pro duction capacity currently in Gimli exists as an option. The threat is real. I would like to ask the Premier why he completely ignored the warnings he received on May 27 from the plant manager in Gimli. Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Transporta tion and Government Services): Mr. Speaker, I think it is important to note that the Minister of Labour has been working very actively. on this. In fact- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. * (13:45) Mr. Ashton: Well, members opposite do not agree with Gord Peters.

In fact, the Member for Gimli might want to acknowledge that in the June 10 Interlake Spectator Gord Peters himself indicated the government of the day is still working hard to make this deal happen. I think, to be fair to the Minister of Labour, they are working very hard to make it happen. We are still working on it. Mr. Speaker, we have indeed been working trying to save this line.

Members opposite, I think, should be fully aware of the fact when the issues related to the Labour Board came to the attention of the Labour Minister, the Labour Minister has been very active in dealing with this, as has our Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines (Ms. Mihychuk). Mr. Helwer: Mr. Speaker, can the Premier (Mr. Doer) explain to the workers in the distillery in

2976 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA July 2, 2002 Gimli whose jobs have now been put in jeopardy why he would refuse to listen to their concerns? Mr. Ashton: I think it is important for the member opposite to recognize what has hap pened. Obviously the first element here- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, if the members oppo site want to make assumptions about the background here and not look at the fact that every Canadian jurisdiction has successor rights, this is not a unique situation. Instead of us relying on that, the Minister of Labour (Ms.

Barrett) as confirmed by Gord Peters himself, and our Industry and Trade Min ister have been working to try and resolve this. The solution to this is not howling in Question Period in the Legislature, it is taking a complex issue, working with all parties, and that is what we are doing. Mr. Helwer: Mr. Speaker, can the Premier con firm he was fully aware that his labour legis lation would have this effect on this rail line and for businesses that depend on it when Bill 18 was passed in the year 2000? Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, the member opposite again is not looking at the facts in this situation.

I indicated before on the record that every Canadian jurisdiction has successor rights. Suc cessor rights were in place under similar circumstance- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, if members opposite wish to try and howl me down, that is fine, but the fact is this predates Bill 18 in terms of jurisdiction, and what we are dealing with is a complex situation involving CP and Cando and the various unions invo lved.

The way to approach it is the way our Minister of Labour has, by the way, which is not to hide behind the rhetoric of members opposite but, as indicated by Gord Peters, to work for a solution. Agriculture Aid Package Minister's Position Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): On June 29, 2001, the Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wow chuk), in Whitehorse, Yukon, I believe, signed on to a negotiation agreement that would see a new farm policy developed in Canada. The framework would include food safety, environ ment, business risk management, renewal, science and innovation, and quality in manage ment intention opportuniti es.

Last week the federal government an nounced a new program that includes food safety, environment, business risk management, renewal, science and innovation, quality and maximizing trade or market opport unities for agriculture products worldwide. Can the Minister of Agriculture tell this House which aspect of the program that she has been negotiating for a year she cannot agree with now? Hon. Rosano Wowchuk (Minister of Agri culture and Food): Mr. Speaker, first of all, I would like to correct the member. He says in Whitehorse I signed an agreeme nt. There was no agreement signing in Whitehorse.

It was an agreement to move forward in the agriculture policy framework, and that is what has been happening. There have been consultation meet ings where the public has had, farmers have had the opportunity to have input. Under this agree ment that is being now prepared and that was under discussion, there are going to be changes to the safety net program, to our Crop Insurance and to the NISA and CFIP program. I met with farm organizations prior to going to Whitehorse and the farm organizations said that they were not adequate.

They did not feel satisfied with inf ormation that was provided and asked that I not sign the agreement until such time as we had further inf ormation, Mr. Speaker. I will consult with producers and continue to work with them. Surely, the member would sup port that. * (1 3:50) Trade-Injury Compensation Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of Agriculture then tell this House why she and her Premier (Mr. Doer) have been telling the people of Manitoba and the farmers of Manitoba that this is a trade compensation

July 2, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2977 package that has been announced and not the agreement that she agreed to in principle back in Yukon in 2001? Hon. Rosano Wowchuk (Minist er of Agri culture and Food): Mr. Speaker, I know that the member has been involved in agriculture for a long time. He knows that there is a part of the program that involves safety net protection. Our province and this Government have always been prepared and have paid 60-40 on the safety net portion and the portions that are in the agriculture policy framework.

The portion that we are opposed to putting provincial dollars into is the trade-in jury part. Surely, the member is not going against his leader who said and put out letters in the news paper and stood with our Premier here saying that the federal government had the responsi bility of compensating for trade in jury. Mr. Speaker, we are prepared to support, when we get more inf ormation on the agriculture policy framework, the safety net portion of it, but on the trade in jury, it is our view, farmers' view, and all people in this room, that trade in jury is the responsib ility of the federal government.

Surely, he is not changing his mind now. Mr. Jack Penner: A new question, Mr. Speaker. I find it inter esting that the minister is reverting right back to her same comment. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the minister: What part of this program that was announced on June 20, would she deem as being trade compensatory actions by the federal government? What part of this program does she deem as trade-in jury compensation? Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minist er and federal Min ister of Agriculture announced $1. 2 billion over two years that was trade-in jury money. They called it bridge financing. Mr.

Vanclief , when the U.S . farm bill was signed, said we need bridge fina ncing for our farmers because of the U.S. farm bill. Nobody talked about this money until the U.S. farm bill was annou nced. That is trade-in jury money. I hope that the Opposition is still standing with people on this side of the House and with farm organizations, saying that the federal gov ernment has the responsibility of trade in jury. They signed the trade deal; they are responsible. George Bush pays the bill; Prime Minister Chretien should pay the bill. Mr. Jack Penner: Mr. Speaker, on a new question.

I find it rather interesting that the docu ment the federal government tabled, nowhere does it speak to trade in jury in this document that we have had in our possession now for the past 10 days. I would like the minister to specifically identify in this program which area she states is trade-in jury compensation. The $600 million that the federal government indi cated over the next two years is clearly stated as a drought-proofing program. I would like to ask the minister where in this document that the federal government gave us does she read trade compensation in this package. Ms. Wowchuk: Well, Mr.

Speaker, again the member says that money is drought money. The drought money is in a completely different envelope than the $600 million that we have been talking about. The $600 million was leaked for two weeks before the announcement . It was recognized as transition money. Mr. Vanclief said we were going to have to have bridge money to help our farmers because of the consequences of the U.S. farm bill, and there is $600 million for the next two years. Then our farmers will be left high and dry while the U.S. farmers get money for six years.

That is the transition money, and the member can call it what he wants. We recognize all over, across the country, that the $600 million or $1. 2 billion for two years is the federal government's attempt to help farmers because of the U.S. farm bill because they have not negotiated an end to the subsidies. * (13 :55) Mr. Jack Penner: I thank the minister for that answer because obviously she is not reading from the same text that we are. I want to ask the minister whether the $1. 2 billion, $600 million over each of the next two years to help farmers

2978 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA July 2, 2002 make the transition to a new and more effective generation of programs dealing with risk, includ ing drought, does that state to her a trade-inj ury compensation package, or does this clearly indicate that the federal government is attempt ing to help the people of Saskatchewan, Alberta and others in Ontario that were severely affected by the drought last year, amongst others? Maybe it could include under that same wording the flood protection and compensation that we need in this provin ce. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr.

Speaker, the member is again mixing different programs. Flood pro tection comes under the disaster assistance pro gram. The $600 million is additional transition funding, and the federal government can call it what they want, but we know that Mr. Vanclief said that there would have to be bridge financing to help our farmers because of the U.S. farm bill. The federal government negotiated the trade deal. The federal government has a responsi bility for trade in jury. This is their weak attempt at helping farmers that are suffering because of the consequences of the U.S. farm bill.

The federal government has to do much more. They have to ensure that those subsidies are reduced, and they have to take a strong position at the WTO and, until they get subsidies reduced, they have to put 100% dollars into our farmers to help them through it, not 60% dollars. Mr. Jack Penner: I want to ask the Minister of Agriculture: When are she and her Premier (Mr. Doer) going to go to Ottawa, and we will join them in an all-party effort, to reinf orce what we have said before, that there needs to be a comprehensive trade compensatory package developed by Ottawa? This bill certainly does not do that.

Nowhere does it give any indication that there was any trade compensation in this package. When will the Premier keep his word and take an all-party committee to Ottawa to approach the Prime Minister on a trade com pensation package? Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, I do not know what the member wants. There was an all-party meeting in Regina. They was an all-party meet ing in Saskatoon where the Opposition joined us, where farm organizat ions joined us. There was a meeting in Winnipeg.

The Keystone Agricultural Producers pulled together our farm organizations calling for the federal government to recognize their responsibility in trade in jury. The federal government has put $600 mil lion for each of the next few years for a total of $1. 2 billion. It is not adequate. The federal gov ernment should be doing a lot more, but that is all they are offering. They are only prepared to put 60 percent of what they should be putting on the table. Farm organizations have said this should be 100 percent funded by the federal government, Mr. Speaker.

If the member wants to go to Ottawa, I do not see the point. We have already had meetings, all-party meetings and organizations calling on the federal government to give their support. Domestic Violence Trial Delays Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Manitobans recently read about the Minister of Justice stating that domestic violence trial dates could be set within six weeks, six weeks of entering a plea to the charges against them. But, once again, reality is a stranger to the minister. Mr.

Speaker, can the minister confirm that domestic violence trial dates are actually four to eleven months away as opposed to the six weeks he tried to spin last week? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): When the department looks to see how you measure the delay in dealing with court cases, there are a number of different measurements available. One is from the time of plea to the first available trial date and, Mr. Speaker, I understand that, in recent years, that is the figure that has been given publicly and that is the figure the department has given.

You could also measure the delay by looking perhaps at when the bulk of the dates may be available or you could perhaps take the view of defen ce counsel and use the date that is first available to them. But I do not think that is what we are trying to measure, not the availa bility of defence counsel but rather the availa bility of trial dates. * (14 :00)

July 2, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 2979 Justice System Court Delays Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Part of the problem is inadequate judicial resources. Can the minister advise when he plans to address this issue considering there are currently 39 pro vincial judges on the bench today, the same number as there were in September, 19 99? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I am pleased to con firm that for the first time to my knowledge in Manitoba there is now a backlog reduction strategy for court cases. We have a 1 0-point court speed-up strategy that is unf olding.

It is a work in progress, Mr. Speaker, and that involves not simply the Manitoba government, but also the judges of the Provincial Court and the Winnipeg Police Service. There are many people who have a stake in reducing the time it takes to process a trial in Manitoba. It is our expectation that cumulatively these changes, this comprehensive approach will make a difference. If members opposite think there is just a one-trick pony that is simply a matter of hiring another judge or two, they are welcome to their opinion.

In our opinion, it is not a matter simply about more resources, it is about using the resources we have much more wisely and I think there is still great potential to do that. Mrs. Joy Smith: Mr. Speaker, can the minister advise this House when he plans to stop misrepresenting trial dates, numbers of judges on the bench and various other factors and effec tively start dealing with the court backlogs? Mr. Mackintosh: It is ironic to hear members opposite who squeezed the prosecutors, who made reductions between 19 95 and 1997.

They underspent by 1. 3 million, they cut another 800 000 when there were double-digit incr eases in the numbers of cases going to the prosecutors. Since coming into office, we have increased resources to our prosecutors by 29 percent. In addition, we recognize it is not simply a matter of new resources. There has been a reor ganization of the prosecution service. We have had an outside, independent review of the pros ecution service. I prefer to rely on that independent outside investigation, Mr. Speaker, than members opposite. They have no credibility when it comes to court backlogs in this province.

School Divisions Amalgamations-Cost Benefits Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): The Minis ter of Education has indicated publicly that Bill 14 will save $1 0 million in administrative costs and the savings will be redirected to the class room, but the minister, when asked directly at committee stage, failed to provide any break down of the expected savings and any basis for his conclusion $1 0 million will be saved. Surely, it is irresponsible and disrespectful to the Legis lature for the minister not to table these esti mates of cost-savings after amalgamation. Mr.

Speaker, I ask the Minister of Education today to table his analysis which suggests that $1 0 million can be saved as a result of the amalgamations in Bill 14. Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): Indeed, amalgamations in the provinces, as has been the case elsewhere in Canada, will save, in fact, not save but redirect money to the classroom, redirect from board rooms to classrooms. We have as pro visions of this legislation administrative caps which will limit the amount of education dollars spent for non-educational purposes.

If there is money being wasted today, it is because the Member for River Heights is denying leave to move this bill forward and costing the public school system dollars every day. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary : I ask the minister why he refuses to table infor mation which should be public inf ormation. Is it because he has not in fact done the analysis and it does not exist? Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, the admin istrative cost caps will redirect substantial resources from administrative purposes to educational purposes.

Divisions, trustees and school divisions through out the province are working assiduously to move this process forward. Last week we were prepared in this House to move this bill forward. Leave has been denied by the Member for River Heights. That denial is

2980 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 2, 2002 on the backs of children and is costing the public education system now. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, surely the Legis Iature-{interj ec tion] proper cost accounting. My supplementary to the Minister of Edu cation. I ask the minister to provide a clear ans wer, either to table the info rmation on the $1 0- million savings or admit it does not exist and is purely a figment of his imagination. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, it is not a radical idea to go from nine school divi sions in the city of Winnipeg for over 600 000 people to six school divisions in the city of Winnipeg. Some legislatures of Canada have dealt with the Voisey Bay bill while members opposite, this member opposite fiddles and puts administrative costs in his question. There are caps in Bill 14 . A cap prohibits the administrative cost going over 4 percent in an urban riding or an urban division, 4.5 percent in a rural constituency or school division, and 5 percent in the North.

The member can do his homework with the administrative costs under these reports and find the $10 million. The people have spoken. Going from nine school divisions to six school divisions, as an example, in the city of Winnipeg is supported by the public. It is supported by the mayor. It is supported by the council. Let us get on with it. School Divisions Amalgamations-Delays Ms. Nancy Allan (St. Vital): My question is to the Minister of Education, Training and Youth. Amalgamating school divisions have been plan ning and preparing for mergers to be effective July 1, 2002, for many, many months.

Because- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. An Honourable Member: We have trouble hearing. Mr. Speaker: Yes, very, very hard to hear the question. I would ask the co-operation of all honourable members. Ms. Allan: Beca use the member of the Liberal Party is holding children and this bill hostage by denying leave, could the minister explain to the Member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard) how his irresponsible actions are affecting students, parents, divisions and trustees in amalgamating school divisions all across this provinc e? Hon.

Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): The delay in the amalga mation date perpetrated by the Member for River Heights will require significantly more adminis trative work to be done by boards and trustees, significantly more accounting and financial work than if amalgamation was to take effect on July 1. The additional work involves maintaining two or more systems for individual school divisions until the merger, for example: payroll, auditing, financial reviews. There are insurance impli cations that the member is foisting upon amalga mated school divisions.

There are issues around busing that need to be resolved; staffing deci sions need to be resolved. The member is putting significantly more work on the shoulders of trustees throughout the province of Manitoba and wasting educational dollars. * (14:10 ) Gaming Advertising Guidelines Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): The Minister responsible for Lotteries in this province of Manitoba has now ignored all boundaries and all standards when it comes to advertising gambling in the province of Manitoba. Last Thursday, the Winnipeg Sun contained an advertising feature of the new casino in The Pas.

On page 7 of that feature it shows clearly Manitobans gambling and playing the slot machines. I would like to table for the minister the copy of the advertise ment that was run in that paper. I would also like to table a copy of a memo from the CEO and president of Manitoba Lotteries- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

July 2, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 2981 Mr. Speaker: Order. I cannot even hear the questions. There is too much disturbance back and forth here. I ask the co-operation of all hon ourable members, please. Mr. Derkach: I would also like to table a memo from the CEO and president of Manitoba Lotteries to the minister with regard to the guidelines that were passed in the year 2000- An Honourable Member: Oh, there are guidelines. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, the memo states, and I quote, the advertising guidelines were adopted in 2000.

The attached fact sheet also states, and I quote: The guidelines pertain to the use of media, newspapers, magazines, radio, television, signage to cornnmnicate a commercial message to a wider audience. My question to the minister is this: Why is the minister who is responsible for Lotteries in Manitoba allowing for this kind of advertising in the province of Manitoba when in fact it is clear that this advertising transgresses the guidelines that were established by this Government? Hon.

Diane McGifford (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lot teries Corporation Act): Of course, this member has asked many questions about adver tising, and in this particular instance he is asking about the casino at The Pas. I will certainly contact officials at Lotteries and bring these photographs from the Sun to their attention. I have not seen them myself. But generally the answer about advertising is the same one that I have given time and time again. I am speaking about the casinos, Winni peg adverti sing, that there are 40 casinos within an 8-hour drive of Winnipeg.

When the members opposite, in 19 89, began advertising there were three casinos within a day's drive of Winnipeg. So, every weekend, throughout the week, there are many, many advertisements in our Winnipeg newspapers advertising on the part of casinos- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Derkach: On a new question. Mr. Speaker: The honoura ble Member for Russell, on a new question. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, the minister is responsible for the advertising that goes on in the province of Manitoba with regard to gam bling.

She is the one who is respons ible for passing the guidelines, and now she is breaking those guidelines. My question to her is: Why is she allowing the casinos in Manitoba to advertise gambling when her own guidelines prohibit it? Ms. McGifford: Once again this member really does not know what he is talking about. {interjection} Oh, yes, he does not know what he is talking about. The casino-[interjection} Mr. Speaker, if the Member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) would stop bellowing, I might have an opportunity to answer the question. Point of Order Mr.

Speaker: The honourable Member for Turtle Mountain, on a point of order. Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): Yes, Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne 417 : should not pro voke debate. Obviously, the only person who does not know anything about this is the minister. Mr. Speaker: The honourab le Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): On the same point of order, Mr. Speaker. The mini ster's responses have been interrupted, first by heckling on a very regret table level, and now by a point of order. It is simply an interrup tion. It is not a point of order. Mr.

Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Member for Turtle Mountain, it

2982 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA July 2, 2002 is not a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. * * * Ms. McGifford: Mr. Speaker, as I was going to say, the casino at The Pas is responsible for its adverti sing. I am not the person who is respon sible for their adver tising. However- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Ms. McGifford: Mr. Speaker, if I might con tinue. As I have already assured the member, I will bring these particular advertisements to the attention of Manitoba Lotteries. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, on a new question. Mr.

Speaker: The honourable Member for Russell, on a new question. Mr. Derkach: The minister is responsible for the type of advertising that takes place in the province of Manitoba with respect to gambling. She is the one who signed the agreement that says those casinos must conf orm to the guide lines; those are her guidelines. Why is this minister- Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourab le Government House Leader, on a point of order. Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne 409(2): A question must be brief. A

preamble need not exceed one carefully drawn sentence. I believe we have two or three sentences, Mr. Speaker. Would you please remind the hon ourable member that rule 409 has a place in this House and has been respected? Mr. Speaker: The honoura ble Member for Russell, on the same point of order. Mr. Derkach: Yes, Mr. Speaker, on the same point of order. I was careful to assure that the minister understood what question I was asking, because obviously from her answers she has not understood a thing about the questions I have asked. So I tried to make it as brief as possible. Mr. Speaker: Order.

On the point of order raised by the honourab le Government House Leader, I would like to take this opportunity to remind all honourable members 409(2): A

preamble should not exceed one caref ully drawn sentence. *** Mr. Speaker: I would ask the honourable mem ber to please put your question. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, will the Minister responsible for Manitoba Lotteries please ex plain, when she signed the agreement with The Pas casino which states they must follow the guidelines, why she is allowing that casino to break the guidelines and advertise gambling out right in the province of Manitoba? Ms. McGifford: Mr. Speaker, it was clear some time ago that members opposite were not in favour of Aboriginal casinos. I can see that negative attitude is continuing.

I have assured this member three times that I am going to follow up. I do not know what part of that he does not get. I will follow up. Deer Lodge Hospital Food Services Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, today the children of Manitoba have been totally removed from chiropractic cover age. Yet we see that the Doer government is willing to spend extra money to have a sandwich factory built within the public system. I would like to ask the Minist er of Health if he will confirm that the Deer Lodge hospital will be having the sandwich factory built at their site. Can he just confirm that? Hon.

Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, when the members opposite brought in their frozen food experiment that cost more than $30 million, they closed the kitchens at Deer

July 2, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 2983 Lodge, they closed the kitchen at Seven Oaks, they closed the kitchen at Grace Hospital, they closed the kitchen at Concordia Hospital. They closed kitchens that provided food to patients in those facilities. It was despicable then. * (1 4:20) Mrs. Driedger: I would like to ask this Minister of Health, who seems a little bit extra sensitive about this subject, if he could just tell us how much the capital costs for this project will be. How much is this going to cost taxpayers to build his sandwich factory at the Deer Lodge Hospital? Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, there is this scen ario that members opposite have whenever they do not have a question. They say: Why do we not ask a sandwich factory question? Members opposite thought it was appro priate to close the kitchen for the veterans at Deer Lodge. They thought it was appropriate to feed the veterans frozen food from Toronto. We do not follow that scenario. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS �illiam Hespeler Mr. Jim Penner (Steinbach): Mr.

Speaker, I rise today to pay tribute to a very important per son in the history of Manitoba, and, in particular, of Manitoba Mennonites, the honourab le William Hespeler. Earlier this year Culture and Heritage Minister Sheila Copps designated Hespeler as a person of historic significance. Parks Canada now has plans to honour him with a 13 0-pound bronze trilingual plaque to be situated in the town of Niverville, located in my constituency of Steinbach. Hespeler is said to have registered the title for the land that Niverville now sits on and built the first grain elevator there in 18 79.

The town is already home to Hespeler Park and Hespeler Cemetery, with plans underway for a Hespeler museum exhibit. While visiting Germany in 18 72, Hespeler, a German immigrant to Canada, learned that large numbers of Mennonites living in southern Russia were considering immigration to North America. Soon after he had reported this to Canadian officials, they authorized him as a special immigration agent to proceed to Russia, there to assure the Mennonites of a welcome in Canada.

After visiting some of the Mennonite settlements, his purposes were suspected by the Russian government, and he was forced to leave that country. By 18 73, upon Hespeler's advice, a dele gation of Russian men came over to Canada to investigate the lands. From this time on Hespeler was the representative of the Canadian govern ment in everything that was connected with the immigration and settlement of the Russian Men nonites in Canada. Hespeler is said to have helped about 7000 Russian Mennonites immi grate to Canada. Mr. Speaker, William Hespeler performed tremendous works in his 91 years.

His legacy continues to impact all Manitobans, especially those Manitoba Mennonites who are able to trace their lineage back to Russia. He is most deserving of this commemorative plaque. I look forward to the day it will be unveiled. Seven Oaks Trail Mr. Cris Aglugub (The Maples): Mr. Speaker, it was my great pleasure on Canada Day to be at the grand opening of the Seven Oaks Hearts in Motion Trail, held at the Garden City Shopping Centre, south lot. It was part of the official Canada Day celebrations for Winnipeg.

The new urban walking path, located in north Winnipeg, goes through Garden City, West Kildonan, Old Kildonan and my constituency of The Maples. Hearts in Motion is an international program started in 19 96. It seeks to promote a physically active lifestyle. I was happy to learn that our local trail, at 42 kilometres, is the largest of its kind in Canada. Not only is this trail a great way to exercise but it can also be educational. There are almost 20 historical sites along the path which are highlighted as points of interest.

2984 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA July 2, 2002 At the path's grand opening I was honoured to be among the guests and representatives of the three levels of government. The trail is the result of co-operation between the Heart and Stroke Foundation and the Seven Oaks Neighbourhood Resource Network. The network includes local businesses, seniors and youth groups, schools, health organiz ations and five residents' associ ations. Other sponsors of the trail include the City of Winnipeg, Manitoba Hydro, MTS and numerous others.

I would like to thank the Seven Oaks Hearts m Motion Trail subcommittee for their hard work and the countless local residents who com mitted their time to volunteer on this project. It is also this working together which helps build stronger communities. I hope that, by participat ing in this trail, people will be able to continue to get to know their neighbours. I encourage all Winnipeg residents to come to Foxwarren Lake in The Maples and take a walk on the Seven Oaks Hearts in Motion Trail. Mason School Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina); Mr. Speaker, on Sunday, June 30, Manitobans closed a

chapter in the history of education in our province. On that day, past and present students and faculty joined together with family and friends to bid a fond farewell to Mason School. Thanks to the contributions of students, staff, alumni, parents and officials, Mason School can proudly bear the title of last remain ing one-room schoolhouse in the provinc e. Sunday marked a celebration and remembrance of 76 years of excellence in the education. The end came when the school's 2001-2002 enrol ment decreased to just 12 students. Sadly, this was not enough for Western School Division to allow it to remain open.

I had the privilege of participating in the Sunday ceremony. There I got to wish Mason School's final students all the best, as they will be attending elementary and junior high schools in Morden next year. I also had the opportunity to examine some of the memorabilia brought to the reunion and hear first-hand accounts from alumni recalling their early years at Mason School. The day began at 10 a.m. with a final ringing of the school's bell and ended later in the evening with a wiener roast. I would like to say a quick word of thanks to all those who organized and took

part in this event, and especially John Loewen, the teacher, who looked after the school at that point. Mr. Speaker, it was not hard to see that everyone who had the privilege of en joying the close-knit community and academic excellence that was such an integral part of Mason School for so many years was very sad to see it go. I trust that the legacy it is leaving will be kept alive through shared memories, future reunions and a potential museum exhibit. Bill Patmore Mr. Harry Schellenberg (Rossmere): Mr.

Speaker, I rise to recognize Bill Patmore, who retired this June as the executive director of the Concordia Hospital. Patmore has worked many years in hospital administration, which included some time at The Pas, North Battleford and 11 years at Concordia Hospital. Patmore's work as a hospital administrator was appreciated by the community. As an administrator, he was very approachab le. He was known for his open-door policy. He was always ready to listen to any suggestions from the community. It was always easy for people to set up a meeting and discuss the issues of the day.

Several MLAs from both sides of this Chamber have taken the opportunity to meet with him over the years. During his tenure as adminis trator, the Concordia Hospital was known to meet its budget. Patmore and the Concordia Hospital board also involved the community in many activities, which developed a sense of community towards the hospital. There was a strong focus on community fundraising and volunteering. During Patmore's 11 years at the Concordia Hospital, he recalled many highlights and changes. He pointed out that the evolution of

July 2, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 2985 regional health care brought about more co operation in health care across the province, and hospitals were integrated into a provincial plan. He also mentioned hallway medicine, while it still occurs sometimes when there is a peak demand, has become less of a problem. Patmore remembers the day when 60 patients overflowed into the hallways of the emergency department at Concordia Hospital .

Other accomplishm ents during his tenure were: the opening of the 60-bed wing; the con struction of the Concordia Place Care Centre next to the hospital; the establishment of the new oncology department; and more recently, the hospital has been named as a site for hip and knee replacement. Mr. Speaker, the community recognizes his leadership in the many changes at the Concordia Hospital in the last 11 years. In retirement, he plans to spend more time with his family and especially his grandchildren. He also plans to travel and improve his golf. Mr.

Speaker, I ask everyone in this Chamber to join in wishing him and his wif e, Barb, a fine retirement. Harness Racing Mr. Denis Rocan (Carman): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to talk about the recom mencement of the harness racing season, and I would like to recognize the Government for reversing their funding decision and for recog nizing the importance of this industry to the rural economy and the rural psyche. Mr. Speaker, for more than a century, the Manitoba Great Western Harness Racing Circuit has provided entertainment and excitement to those who have come to witness its fast-pace action.

It has also provided more than 500 jobs annually, ranging from breeders, drivers and judges to track maintenance people, farriers, food booth personnel and the people who build horse trailers. * (1 4:30 ) I would like to take this opportunity to make my colleagues and my fellow Manitobans aware of the new harness racing schedule.

The resched uled racing dates are as follows: July 20 and 21 in Deloraine, July 27 and 28 in Killarney, August 3 and 4 in Killarney, August 10 and 11 in Miami, August 17 and 18 in Wawanesa, August 24 and 25 in Minnedosa, August 31 and September 1 in Holland, September 7 and 8 in Dauphin, September 14 and 15 in Glenboro, September 21 and 22 in Portage la Prairie. I and my caucus colleagues, specifically the Member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed), can not stress enough how relieved and excited we are for rural Manitoba that the harness racing industry has been revived.

The Government involvement in this industry is a small price to pay to give the people of rural Manitoba 23 days a summer to congregate, to share fellowship, to elevate community spirit, to cheer, to laugh, to enjoy, to take time out for family togetherness. Thanks to this industry, people ventured beyond the boundaries of the city of Winnipeg and saw a corner of the province they might not have otherwise visited. I would like to thank the countless Manitobans who called, wrote, e mailed and faxed their concerns on this issue to our caucus and to the Government.

Your support was essential in getting this Government to restore funding to this valuable industry. The harness racing industry is an important part of the rural Manitoba economy, and I thank the Government for recognizing this and restoring partial funding to this important sector. ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS House Business Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, would you canvass the House to determine if there is leave to deal with Bill 14 report stage this afternoon. Mr. Speaker: Is there leave of the House to deal with Bill 14 for report stage this afternoon?

Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: Leave has been denied.

2986 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA July 2, 2002 Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, would you see if there is leave of the House to waive private members' hour today. Mr. Speaker: Is it the will of the House to waive private members' hour today? [Agreed] Mr. Mackintosh: I move, seconded by the Minister for Intergovernmental Affairs (Ms. Friesen), that the House resolve into Committee of Supply. Motio11 agreed to. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) LABOUR AND IMMIGRATION * (14: 40) Mr. Chairperson (Harry Schellenberg): Good afternoon. This

section of the Committee of Supply, meeting in Room 254, will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Labour and Immigration. We are on line 3. Immigration and Multicu lturalism (

a) Immigration ( 1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $2, 1 23,400 on page 127 of the main Estimates book. When this committee last sat, there had been agreement to discuss the

section on Multic ulturalism in 3. Immigration and Multicu lturalism prior to consideration oflmmigration. Is this still the will of the committee? Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): We are ready to pass through the lines on Multiculturalism and move on to the

section on Immigration. Mr. Chairperson: There is an agreement to start on Multicult uralism. 3. Immigration and Multiculturalism (

a) Immigration

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $2, 123, 400-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $693,700 -pass;

(3) Financial Assistance and Grants $6,407,700 -pass. 3. (

b) Multiculturalism

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1 49,800-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $37,800 -pass;

(3) Grants $10 7 ,500-pass. Resolution 11 .3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Ma jesty a sum not exceeding $9,5 19,900 for Labour and Immigration, Immi gration and Multiculturalism, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March 2003 . Hon. Becky Barrett (Minister of Labour and Immigration): Mr. Chair, we had by agreement done

section 3. (

b) Multi culturalism prior to 3. (

a) Immigration. So we have only dealt with the one section. We still have the Immigration portion of 11 .3 to do. Mr. Chairperson: Is there agreement to now do line by line 3.(

a) Immigration? [Agreed] Mr. Schuler: I would ask the minister if we could be working on the orange book starting on page 46. I take it then we go all the way through to page 49. Can the mm1ster give us an overview on how the whole immigration issue has worked in Manitoba? Can she just give us a little bit of a report how immigration has worked for Mani toba in the last year? Ms. Barrett: Generally speaking, the immi gration program has worked very well in the province over the last year.

I believe there were just over 4500 new immigrants to the province, which includes the people who have come through the Provincial Nominee Program, inde pendent immigrants as well as refugees. In specific, the Provincial Nominee Program in 200 1 -2002 resulted in 758 provincial nom inees being approved in 2001. As the member knows, this is an increase from 200 principal nominees, which is either an individual or a head of family, to 750 for this last year. We now have approval from the federal government to bring in 10 00 individuals or heads of family.

The 758 provincial nominees, in some cases, it is an individual, but in most cases, it is the head of a family, the person who makes the application, and then there could be spouses and family members, children. Specifically, there were 758 principal applicants, 522 spouses and 11 44 child ren, dependent children; so 2423 individuals and families were approved under the Provincial

July 2, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 2987 Nominee Program. They did not all come here, but they were approved. The pipeline sometimes takes a year or more, depending on, as the member knows, the federal government retains the right to look at the applications for medical purposes and security check. That takes some time, and depending on where they come from in the world and what backup there is in the visa office, that can take a fair bit of time. But 758 applications were approved. We, again, now are able, in this year, starting in March, to nominate 10 00 families.

We also have a provincial nominee business component. That is in conjunction, working to gether with the Department of Industry, Trade and Mines to look at business applications being approved under the Provincial Nominee Pro gram. What ITM does is they take a look at the business part of the proposal, because that is where their expertise lies, and then they work with us to finalize the regular provincial nomi nee part of the application. We have issued certificates of nomination to 77 business applicants under the provincial nominee business part of the program.

The total combined amount of the funds that would be invested by these 77 business applicants is approximately $28.5 million. The details of this program would be more appropriately addressed to the Estimates of Industry, Trade and Mines, but, in general, the applicants have to provide a business plan. They have to be prepared to come to Manitoba and have their business located here in Manitoba.

But approximately 30 percent of the provincial nominees are located outside of Winnipeg, and 70 percent inside the city, and that is a proportion that has remained fairly con stant for most of the time of the program. * (1 4:50 ) One of the problems, one of the challenges we face is dealing with the visa officers overseas and figuring out ways to ensure that Manitoba is noticed, so that these officers will acknowledge that we have a good program, that we have a good set of settlement programs, and that we are a multicult ural community, and we need immi grants.

So we need to increase our communi cation with the officers abroad about what a good place it is to try and steer immigrants to. We have our Provincial Nominee Program which does that, but, still, the majority of people who come to Canada come under the economic or independent class. It is a challenge to get Manitoba noticed by the immigration officers, and we are working with over 40 posts overseas to try and increase that, our visibility. We sent a staff member to Italy to promote Manitoba as a good place to invest and come to live.

This was part of the team that was put to gether by the Manitoba Italian Chamber of Com merce, and we will see what happens from that. We worked with the Jewish community in the province, not just this year, but over other times, last year as well, sending a staffperson to Argentina to talk with people from that country about settling in Manitoba. We have a number of people who have actually come to visit Winni peg, and who are in the process of making application through the Provincial Nominee Pro gram from Argentina. So we are working with employers and community groups to try and increase our profile.

Again, we are talking with the federal government and reiterating our willingness to take our share, or even more than our share, of refugees, both government sponsored and pri vately sponsored refugees. As the member knows, the mayor has made immigration a big part of his push for vitalizing Winnipeg, and we believe that we can work with the City and with other communities thr oughout the province to increase that. We hosted Canada-wide consultations of the Provincial Nominee Program, which included representatives from seven provinces, as well as local, regional and national Citizenship and Immigration staff.

We are looking with other departments to increase our visibility, for exam ple, working with the Department of Agricul ture. I believe there was a delegation going with Agriculture and Food and other private-sector partners to the Netherlands to promote immigra tion of European farmers. There have been a number of Dutch farmers who have come to Manitoba to look and investigate what this is. We went to a national recruitment mission to London last year. We participated with other provinces in recruitment and promotion

2988 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA July 2, 2002 activities in Venezuela, Colombia, Argentina and Brazil. We worked with Manitoba Health and the federal government in the recruitment of 65 registered nurses from the Philippines. We have done a whole number of things with immigrants once they come into Manitoba.

We have one of the best settlement programs in the country because we recognize that, if people are going to stay in Manitoba, if they are going to become successful, that they are going to have the kind of quality of life that they deserve and that will keep them here; that we need to provide them with the services they need once they come here to enable them to do that. As the member will no doubt acknowledge, immigrants come from all over the world, and they come with varying needs. Some people come from countries where English is the first language and have jobs waiting for them.

In many cases they have family, they have friends here, and the settlement requirements are mini mal. Other people come, particularly refugees, they come from countries and situations that are absolutely, I cannot even begin to think about how horrible they must have been. For example, I was at my community MLA Canada Day celebration yesterday. A teacher from one of the local schools was telling me how there was a student, a young girl who had come from Afghanistan, in Grade 4. She was put in Grade 4 because she was 10 years old. She had never attended school because she was a female from Afghanistan.

So not only has she come from heaven only knows what kind of life in her home country, heaven only knows how long it has taken her, and what she and her family have had to go through to get to Winnipeg. She is 10 years old, she has never attended school, she has no English. I am sure her family, I am assuming, has virtually no English.

They are probably here as refugees coming from an unbelievable situation, and here she is in a school where she is placed in a school grade because that is the age she is, but she has no other skills that would allow her without an enormous amount of assistance for herself and her family to make a go of it. We are going to make a go of it with this young woman and her family. We just will because it is important for us to do that. So we have a range of needs and of issues that we are working on.

We also had a good meeting with the new Minister of Immigration, Denis Coderre, shortly after his being put into that position. We have had a program evaluation of the Provincial Nom inee Program which was very positive . It has been in place since '98. We feel that it has gone through its first stage with very positive evalu ations. We have, as I stated, increased the level of provincial nominees to now where this year we will be able to bring in 10 00 families.

We are going to be the location in the middle of October for the first, I believe it is the first, meeting of the ministers responsible for Immigration and the federal minister in six years here in Winnipeg. So we are quite excited about that. It will be a very good time. There are lots of challenges facing us. Here in Manitoba we know we have the best overall program and the most exciting things happe ning. We just want the world to know about it. Mr.

Schuler: I do have a slew of questions to ask in regard to what the minister has just spoken about, but my colleague would like to ask some very specific questions. So I will defer to him, and then I would like to get back to some of the comments that the minister made. Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): First of all, I guess I would like to thank the minister's staff for the assistance that they have given us over the last, oh, four or five years, whenever we started the program specifically with the German immi grants coming to southern Manitoba. They have worked out well; they are integrating well.

It is not that there have not been some concerns out there, but I think that is to be recognized and expected from any groups that come. Right now the town of Winkler alone is looking for 200 people just to fill jobs, the town of Morden not quite that many but about 10 0 that they need to fill jobs. I am glad to hear that we are continuing to aggressively try to attract people to the province, especially to our and my own local communities. My question, though, is specific to those who have immigrated. The concern that I am

July 2, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2989 hearing time and time again is that we have received a number of well -educated people. They have got their certificates, they have got their degrees in Germany, specifically would-be mechanics, nurses, dental hygienists. The prob lem they have is that they are not allowed to even challen ge an exam to determine whether the education they have received in Germany is one that would be acceptable out here. They are not allowed to do this.

They are quite prepared to do it, but in fact in the last two weeks I talked to several of these people, and they have been told that the only way you are going to be able to get your degree or your certificate, whatever the designation is that they need, will be that if you go back to school and take the thr ee, four years of training or whatever the years that are required. My question is are we doing anyth ing. Is the minister, through her department, doing anything to try to address some of these issues, or is this specific to southern Manitoba?

I guess just before I let that question go; I did talk to busi nesses in Winnipeg, Art DeFehr, from Pall iser. He says they are experiencing the same prob lems. So I would ask for an answer to that, if I could, please. * (15: 00) Ms. Barrett: appreciate that question. How much time do we have? This is a huge issue. An Honourable Member: Just fix it. Ms. Barrett: Just fix it, the member says. Oh, boy. We have been actually working on this. Well, I know many people have been. It is called the whole issue of credentials, and the current situation, and it is from coast to coast to coast, it is all over.

It is not just in Canada. To one or more degrees, it is a phenomenon. In a brief sort of a snapshot, it is that the licensing bodies have been given by governments the authority to decide who shall be licensed to practise a profession or a skill. So it is the College of Phy sicians and Surgeons, the Manitoba Association of Registered Nurses, the certificate bodies for skilled workers. All of these bodies have been given this authority.

I do not think anyone would deny that they have the right to do that because they are the ones who know what kinds of skills you should have in order to be licensed in that particular area. Where the challenge comes from, where the problem comes from, is how they determine what are the skills, that you do or do not have the skills. There are language components. There are a whole bunch ·of things. This is an over simplification, but largely how they have done that in the past has been through a paper study.

So you get a degree from X university or you get your training certificate from Y training college, the licensing body says, yes, that is good, we will accept that, or no, or they look at the actual course, the syllabus and the description of the course. Well, that works real well if there is some comparability or you can determine if there is comparability, but there are cases where there are legitimate universities that do not exist any more. In eastern Europe, I am sure there are cases where those records are not available, et cetera, and how do you decide if they fit.

So what we are trying to do, and we have had a group called the Blue Sky Group, which is-tell us how to fix this, if it was just blue sky, the issue-working on this, as well as people in our department and across the country too. It is a huge issue because we want trained, skilled people, but when we get them, we sometimes cannot use them, and you have identified that. This is going to be on the agenda when the ministers meet in October, this issue.

We are now working with some suggestions that this Blue Sky Group has come up with, trying to figure out how we can work with the licensing bodies to say no, we do not want to tell you what you licensed for. We just want to help work with you as to how you determine what the person's skills are. There is something called the Prior Learning Assessment and Recognition program, PLAR, that we work with in our department, and I assume across the country it is the same. So, for individuals, we can work with them and do some of this assessment, but as a whole it is a challenge.

We are attempting to work our way through it. No province, nor the federal government, has yet been able to crack that moment shell, what ever, make a breakthrough, but we are working

2990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA July 2, 2002 on it, and we acknowledge that. We have very definitely skilled people here who are doing jobs that they were not trained for and not doing the jobs and the professions that they were trained for, so it is a critical issue. Mr. Dyck: Mr. Chairman, I agree it is a very critical issue. In fact, what is happening is, in my discussion with-and these are not older people, these are young people who basically have graduated, I would say in the last four or five years, and they have the credentials out of Germany and are out here.

What they are telling me now is that, in fact, they know of people who would like to come here, but they are cautioning them. They are saying, listen, you come out here and you think that you have the education that you need and that you would qualify out here. Consequently, I believe that this is something that is a deterrent for them. Certainly, I would ask the minister, and I think she indicated she would, but also her colleagues across the country, to very aggres sively work on this. That is one part of it, you know, the concern that I have. I guess the other side of it, and this is specific to immigration.

I think that we basically have taken that there are certain standards that we want when you go through the point system with immigrants coming. I think a lot of it has to do, as you indicated, with language, with edu cation, et cetera. There is also a need for non skilled people. I mean, we also need a lot of non skilled. In fact, in the area I would suggest that the need is just as great for non-skilled people as it is for the skilled, those who have degrees of some sort.

So I am just wondering, is there a balance that you as minister are promoting in order to be able to get a good mix of the skilled and non skilled people as immigrants within the province or within the country. What is the direction that is taking? Ms. Barrett: Immigration remains a federal jurisdiction, by and large. The feds have worked out the arrangement. They worked it out in '98 with the province on the Provincial Nominee Program, which does devolve to the province the definition of who comes in. Then the feds do their health check and the safety check.

The Provincial Nominee Program is a skilled worker program. It is designed to address the skilled worker shortages. The federal independent immigration stream as well; there has been a lot of talk about the new legislation, et cetera, some argument, dis cussion about whether it opens the doors wider or narrows the doors, but it is also focusing on skilled shortages. However, there are other peo ple who get to Manitoba, in particular, who are potential workers in the lesser skilled areas. One category is refugees. The criteria for them is not their skills.

It is their degree of risk, and whether they have been sponsored by private sponsor groups. So there is a grouping. Also, there are family members of the Provincial Nominee people who come in who are not assessed. It is only the principal applicant who is assessed for the Provincial Nominee Program. So, for example, in, well, the last three years, '99, 2000 and 2001, the first full three years, Winkler had just under 26 percent of the provincial applicants and dependants. It went down to 22 percent in 2000, and back up to just under 25 percent in 200 I.

Again, if you add Steinbach and Winkler together, last year they had 3 7 percent of the total. In 19 99, they had almost 50 percent of the total. That is principal applicants and dependants. As you know, a vast majority of the families who come to that part of the province have large families. Some of their family members, their spouses and dependants are not as highly edu cated or as highly skilled as they are, the princi pal applicant, because they do not have to have the points.

I guess what I am saying, in a long-winded sort of a way, is that there is an opportunity for family members, too, through the Provincial Nominee Program to have access to some jobs that might be seen more as entry level jobs; in particular, for spouses and perhaps student members of the family. Another area is family reunification. That is, again, a federal program. That is not as dependent on the skills. It is saying we want to reunif y families and bring family members together. So there is another oppor tunity, Mr. Chairman.

July 2, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 299 1 Finally, as we get closer to our 4 percent of the immigration pie, which would mirror what our actual population percentage is of the whole Canadian population; as we get to that point, which would be about doubling the numbers that we have today, just by definition, there will be larger numbers of people to draw from. Long winded answer, but the two main immigration programs are skill-oriented. * (15: 10 ) Mr.

Dyck: Just to elaborate on that a little bit, I think that what you would find though is that, yes, they do have large families, absolutely right, but the majority of those are still school-aged chi ldren. I mean, we are not trying to promote the fact that they do not receive an education, that they can become a part of that unskilled category. So the problem still remains. You also mentioned the old part of those who emigrated. I forget the term you used. They are not immi grant status; they are refugees.

Okay, I think the other thing that you would find out if you started looking at our area speci fically that really for some reason or another, and I am not sure how many refugees Manitoba attracts, by and large if they do come here they leave, again because I do not think they fit in as well, if I can use that term. I just know that in the southern Manitoba area it is the German families and also, of course, the Mexicans who have fitted in very well and are integrating very well into the communities. So we do not want to be specific to certain areas.

I think that maybe culturally, maybe even because of climatic con ditions or the type of work, we find it more difficult to attract some of the other nationalities, although they would be welcome to come. So I think sort of through a process of what we deem being successful, the countries that we have been able to attract the immigrants from, they have worked out very well. So I guess my question further to that would be: How many do you see us being able to attract and integrate into our communities-I would be more specific with the Winkler-Morden area and the Pembina area that I represent-within the next year?

Ms. Barrett: Over the four years that the program has been in place, the division has approximately been 70 percent to Winnipeg and 30 percent to other areas of the province. The vast majority of that 30 percent has gone into the Winkler-Steinbach area. So I think it would not be an overstatement to say that the Provincial Nominee Program has been Winnipeg and Winkler-Morden, by and large. There have been other communities that have had some people go to them. I think the Brandon area with the business component is going to come up there too.

We are working with other communities to say, we know you have shorta ges. What are they? Let us work together. It would be impossible for me to say what kind of percentage will happen. I cannot guaran tee anyth ing. I know that with 1000 families, what the federal government has given us; and with the fact that the Provincial Nominee Pro gram is specifically designed for skilled workers who are filling positions, that are identified in Manitoba as skilled positions, that are going begging. That program, the Provincial Nominee Program, will remain a skilled program.

The federal government gives and the federal government takes away. So, while we have some nominal control, it would be a chal lenge to try and say to them, we want to bring in people who do not pass that 50-point mark. We have, literally, thousands and thousands and thousands of applications from across the world. Way more of those applications would be acceptable, would make the grade than we have space for. We are trying to get more people here, but through the provincial nominee part of it. At this point, it is going to stay the very successful program it is.

The shortages in other areas are going to have to be looked at through other immigration means or other recruitment strategies. The bottom line is, right now, because the Provincial Nominee Program is a joint program with the feds, because they are focussing and we have been focussing, and very successfully, on skilled workers, that is how it is going to stay for the foreseeable future. Mr. Dyck: Okay, do you see this process then, through the nominee program, in fact, speeding up? That is the wrong term possibly, but it takes

2992 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 2, 2002 a long time. For instance, in our area, we have got employers who have signed job oppor tunities as much as a year ago, who are still waiting for that position to be filled. As you have indicated, there are many people who would like to fill those job categories, yet, though, it just appears to take long in order to process these applicants.

Do you see this in any way being expedited to be able to assist those employers who are possibly, in some cases, expanding their businesses, feeling confident that they are going to be able to fill those positions, but need to wait months and months and months in order to be able to fill them? Do you see this speeding up in any way? Ms. Barrett: Again, because we are tied so closely to the federal system; there is a huge backlog of cases in many of the visa posts.

I think Bonn would be the visa post and Berlin, and I am not sure specifically about Berlin, but I do know that the delays for, or the time between approval and landing, an independent immigrant can be upwards of three or more years. We have a challenge facing us in adminis trating the program at this end because of its success. We have literally thousands and thou sands of applications coming in each year to try and sift throu gh, to assess. Many of them are missing documents. Many of them are incom plete.

So it is not just taking a look at it and checking down through the whole thing: Okay, you are okay; you are not. It is going back and working through a case for a number of times, maybe. So it is quite a time-intense and certainly labour-intense process at the front end, from our division's perspective. Then you multiply that by literally thousands, many of which are clearly not complete, but many of which are. You have to assess each of them individually.

Then, once that process has happened and concluded, and we have issued a certificate, then they have to go through the health check, the medical check and the security check by the federal government. That, in and of itself, is time consuming, if there were no other delays. Then the visa has to be issued, ta-da, ta-da, ta-da, and it goes on and on and on. There has not been the kind of staffing at the post level overseas to enable this situation to be ameliorated, Is my personal view. It is made worse, worse in the sense of the delays have not been narrowed or reduced.

As a matter of fact, they have probably been exacerbated by the new legislation and working through several kinds of laws, et cetera, the old and the new. The transition is going to be difficult. Even so, the provincial nominees come in much quicker than an independent immigrant would, in many cases, less than a year. It depends on the individual situation. Sometimes there is a problem getting all the material at this end. Sometimes there is a problem getting the security, blah, blah, blah, from the feds. Some times, there is a holdup in the pipeline.

I do not know about individual situations, but sometimes families have tidying up to do in their home country. So they are delayed at that end. Again, a long-winded answer, but it is a multifaceted problem and challenge we are dealing with. We are working as fast we can at this end, but there is only so much to do when you have to shove every single one of these applications that have been approved through that very small, narrow pipeline from the feds. * (15: 20) Mr. Dyck: Last week, I had a local employer approach me and basically one who said, if he had 30 of the right people that day, he would hire them.

He was wondering what the oppor tunities would be, in fact he has a number of his employees that come from Mexico, what opportunities there would be and, in fact, what assistance he would be able to get from the department here in order to be able to get some of these people to come out to Manitoba, and specifically to the Winkler region and Morden region, in order to be able to gain employment there. Now, I think they would be able to make the contacts, but what process would they have to go through in order to be able to make these contacts? Ms.

Barrett: Basically, if you wanted to get the employer to connect with the division, with Gerry Clement, Assistant Deputy Minister, he can probably work through the process. There are a number of different avenues that can be followed, and I guess the best thing to do, rather than to try and talk about each of them, is to get the two of them together and try and see what can be done.

July 2, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 2993 Mr. Dyck: Mr. Chairman, really, those are the questions that I had. Thank you. Mr. Schuler : I thank my colleague for bringing up those important issues. Back to the minister's initial remarks, since the nominee program was introduced, approximately, each year, and from the year that it started, how many of the appli cants were approved? Ms.

Barrett: Recognizing that the program began in late 19 98, October 19 98, so that was a truncated year, is the member asking how many applications were approved as a percentage of how many applications came in, or just how many were approved? The member is saying to me that he is asking simply for the number that were approved. Okay. Recognizing that sometimes it can take upwards of a year for them actually to come here and to land; but the appro vals in 19 98, in three months, were 70. In 19 99, there were 500, and we had an allocation of 450, but we carried over.

So it is a rolling figure; it is hard to break it down. So 70 in '98, 500 in '99, 515 in 2000, 758 in 2001, of course, we are not finished with 2002. So, in the thr ee-plus years, we have issued 18 43 certificates. That would be principal appli cants, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Schuler: For 2002, how many have been approved so far? Ms. Barrett: We are averaging around a hun dred a month approvals, so we would be approximately 500 to 600 approvals. Again, we have 10 00 certificates that we are allocated for this year. Mr.

Schuler : Going back to '98, of those that have been approved, how many ended up coming in, whether they came in '98 or 2000? I think there has to be an understanding. Obviously, you do not go out and you do not sell the business, the house, the car, the furniture, and then find out you are not approved. Surely people are more prudent than that. So what happens is you get your approval in the mail one day and that starts the whole process.

You find the house, the business, the car and the furniture does not sell as well as you would like, or there are a few things that happen in between there, but in the end, of those that were approved, 70 in '98, 500 in '99, 515 in 2000, and so on and so forth, how many actually have come over for each year? Ms. Barrett: Well, as the member has recognized, it takes time to not only take care of your business in your homeland but also to get your visa applications and through the federal government and all of that kind of thing. So there were no landings in 19 98, not surprising.

An Honourable Member : I have to ask again. Can I try again? Ms. Barrett: I think if the member will let me finish I might be actually answering that. In 19 99, 418 people actually came to Manitoba as a result of the Provincial Nominee Program, which would have been people who had been approved in 19 98 and into 19 99 and their families. In the year 2000, 10 88 people actually landed in Manitoba as a result of the Provincial Nominee Program. In 2001, 970 peo ple landed, and a total for the thr ee-plus years of landeds is 2476 individuals. Mr.

Schuler: Okay, I guess what I am trying to get at is in 19 98 there were 70 approvals of primary applicants, not of individuals who landed. Of those 70 that were approved, at some point in time does the approval expire? You have three years to get here . You have five years to get here. How many of those 70 have expired where the people actually never took us up on our generous offer? And a generous offer it is. Ms. Barrett: An individual is sent a certificate from Manitoba.

They have six months then to make application to the federal government, to go through the federal government's require ments, which is the security check and health check. So they have that six-month leeway to make that decision: Well, yes, I would like to come, but I have tried to sell my house, or I have tried to sell my business, or my mother is sick, to decide, yes, oh, my goodness, they have actually said yes to me, uh, oh, now I have to make a decision. So they have that six months to actually apply.

2994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA July 2, 2002 There is that six-month time. They can choose to start the process instantly if they want to, but they do have a six-month time there where their certificate is valid. Let us say they make the application and they get the process going for the visa from the feds. Once that visa is issued, which takes a number of months depending on the security check and the health care check. Then the visa is issued by the feds. They have a year to use that visa. We give them six months to make a decision to start with the feds.

The feds give them a year after they have said yes to them for them to activate the visa to actually get here. * (15: 30) Mr. Schuler: In 19 98, the then-minist er issued 70 certificates. How many of those expired without being used? Ms. Barrett: We will have to come back with that information. As I said earlier, we have a wonderful staff. They have a lot of applications to go through, a lot of statistical monitoring to do to just get the current situation handled. We will have to endeavour going back through the files to see how many actually came.

It could be that they have come in 19 99-2000 or they could have come in the year 200 1, theoretically, because the feds could have taken that long to issue them their medical certificate, et cetera. It is going to be a challenge to figure out which of any particular year's certificates were or were not used. The six months is one thing at our end but the visa issue thing at the other end is out of our control. I do not know quite how we would find out how many actually, we can do it but it is going to take some time. Mr.

Schuler: I guess the only reason why I think it is something that perhaps should be looked at-I am certainly not here to add more work onto the public service. My colleague across the way and I were talking, when it comes to immigration, it is one of the only real things that government does. There are a few other areas, but it is a real area. You are involving individuals. You are bringing them over. A lot of what we do in government is whatever, but this is a real thing. I think it is important to know how effective we are. Out of 70 certificates, are half being used? How effective are we when we hand it out?

Again, I think we have to keep in mind that the minister pointed out there will be those that are active. It might take a lot longer, for instance, in Afghanistan to get the proper documents as compared to somebody coming from Western Europe, where documents are much more readily available. I think it is important to keep that differentiation. I just think it is good to know how many of those are being utilized, how many are still in process as compared to how many have expired. Ms.

Barrett: Just a very rough estimate, looking at the number of people that were nominated and the number of people that were landed, the number of people that were nominated in 19 98 and 19 99 was approximately 2000 when you take the two years together. The number of peo ple who landed in 19 99 and 2000, the next year, which is pretty much how you have to do it-you are nominated one year, you often get in the next-was approximately 15 00. That is a very rough assessment. Approximately 75 percent of those who were nominated in the first year and three months actually landed in the next two years.

It may actually be more. We had a smaller number of landings in 200 I but we expect that to probably increase again in 2002. Just on that it would be about thr ee-quarters, but I think it is a bit higher. It has been pointed out to me that when we got our numbers extended from 200 to 450 to 500 to 750 to 1000, that always happened at the end of the calendar year, when we went to the feds and said, look, how successf ul we are being, we are really up against it, can we have some more, please, please, please, can we have some more? That happened at the end of the calendar year.

You have a bump at the end of the calendar year of the nominations. So it is going to take into the second year for those numbers to show. We will do what we can to get a sense of that. Mr. Schuler: Again, the numbers are very helpful. The only thing is, the number of people are not the number of certificates because one individual is issued and that can mean two people, one person, ten people, twelve. I mean, who knows, right?

July 2, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 2995 The next question that I would like to ask, and I do not know if the department tracks this, of the 70 or 98, 599, so on and so forth, of those that came, do we track how many have actually stayed in Manitoba? * (15: 40) Ms. Barrett: We undertook an evaluation in 200 1 and sent out a questionnaire to the pro vincial nominees that had come to Manitoba. Ninety percent of those who initially came to Manitoba continue to live here; 77 percent plan to stay in the town or city where they are living for at least the next five years .

About 34 percent of those arriving by October 2001 , which is three years into the program, settle outside of Winni peg compared to 15 percent of other recent non program-related immigrants, i.e., the PNP has more than twice as many of its applicants set tling outside the city than do the other immi gration streams. About 94 percent of the principal applicants and 44 percent of adult dependents who came to Manitoba through the PNP are employed. The overall employment rate is 71 percent, similar to that of all Manitobans. Sixty percent are working in their intended occupations.

At least 59 percent are working in the high demand occupations. The longer they live in Manitoba, the hi gher their employment rate, which is atypical for immigration and actually refugees as well. None reported receiving any social assistance. In the longer term, they hope to move into more highly skilled occupations, which also, I think, is something that non-immigrants would aspire to as well. Now, it is important to keep in mind that we sent out the questionnaire to those provincial nominees whose addresses we knew, but they are not required to tell us where they live or if they are even in the province.

Particularly that is true of non-provincial nominee immigrants who we may not even know about. Independent economic immigrants do not have to use the Province for anything. So, with that caveat, we think that this evaluation, and I must say the federal govern ment was very pleased with these figures because it says that the program is doing what it was intended to do, which is to bring in skilled people to fill skilled occupations that are in short supply in the province and to keep them here.

We believe that that recruitment and retention situation has been very successful in the first three and a half years or would have been three years when the evaluation was done. Mr.

Schuler: If I can just jump in my sheet of questions here, correct me if I am wrong, but did the federal minister not muse, I wonder if he was musing out loud one day when he said one of the things they were thinking of doing was, they would bring in a bill, or maybe it is in front of the House, I heard it briefly, that you have to stay for a certain while to the area or designate areas where immigrants cannot immigrate to and would stay, and I can remember, it was roundly condemned. Does the provincial government have a position on that kind of a bill? Ms. Barrett: Yes.

I know very little more than the member knows on this situation, hard though that may be for people to believe, from either end, but the federal minister has not com municated with the province or myself on this issue at all. I am not sure if I would use the word "musing," but I could see where someone might use that.

A couple of things that were reported that the minister said, one was sort of a social contract that you would sign saying you would come here and you would stay a certain number of years in a certain location, and he was talking about it in terms of the provinces that have and the communities that do not have their pro portional share of immigrants, of which Mani toba is one. Then I also heard that he was talking in terms of giving more points to people who would agree to go somewhere.

We will be dis cussing this, I understand, although the federal government will be making the agenda, but I would assume, since the minister will be getting all of his provincial counterparts together in mid October, that he will be discussing this issue. The thing about it is I think that our Pro vincial Nominee Program addresses that kind of concern, which is a legitimate concern, that the vast majority of immigrants in Canada are going to three places. They are going to three prov inces. They are going to Toronto, Vancouver and

2996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA July 2, 2002 Montreal, Ontario, B.C. and Quebec. No other province comes anywhere close to that, to the numbers or the percentages. Alberta is next in line, and then Manitoba is probably fifth, but way, way down the list. The PNP is designed to try and address that recruitment and retention issue by ensuring as much as possible that the nominees have a connection to Manitoba that is going to stay, that is going to be remaining. That is why we place emphasis on the skills. We place emphasis on skiJls that are in short supply in Manitoba.

We place emphasis on a job offer in Manitoba. We talk about community. We give points for is there a community that is going to help this individual stay here, deal with the settlement issues, deal with the challenges facing anyone who comes new to a new country or a new community. We have been very successful in that without dealing with or addressing issues of mobility and Charter implications, but we still are not where we need to be as far as levels of immigration. Our PNP does not deal at all with the economic immigrants or the refugees.

That is where, I think, the federal minister is finding the challenge, that currently people can come into Canada and, if they meet the points, no one can tell them where they can live. I mean, rural Ontario has challenges too, as has Manitoba. So he is musing, if that is what he is doing, about a very, very critical issue and one that is going to be very difficult I think to address. Mr. Schuler: The minister mentioned that visa offices overseas are or can be a problem. Could you elaborate on that, like, wherein lie the problems? Ms. Barrett: Basically, as is in many instances, it is a matter of resources.

We Canadians have, I would say, and I would suspect that the federal minister would agree with this, a shortage of the optimum number of visa officers in many visa posts. We also have things like visitor visas, student visas, a range of reasons why people come to the visa offices, so they are dealing with a whole range of kinds of issues. * (15 :50) We also have to deal with the issue of globalization, where more and more people know about Canada and other countries.

More and more people see the streets being paved with gold and wanting to come to a country, to a different country to improve their lot in lif e, to send money back to their families. As you get more and more people in a country, they send money and information back to their homeland saying try and get here because it is much better. So it is a factor of success. It is a factor of globalization. It is a factor of hei ghtened security after 9-1 1, all of those factors.

So it is a real challenge for the visa officers to deal with their daily load, and sometimes, for example, with the Provincial Nominee Program, we would like them to bump it up a little higher. They are pretty good about saying, okay, here is a pro vincial nominee. Most of the work has been done. Manitoba has decided they want him. We wiJI not do the whole process.

We may even waive the interview requirement and just go straight in. ' So our challe nge is to ensure that all of those officers in the visa posts understand the Mani toba program, acknowledge it and actually use and recognize that we have done a Jot of the work and they do not have to replicate it, and also just to make people aware that we are here.

It is not only the community at large that thinks of Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver, but some times it is the visa officers who just say, you know, who do not have time to say, well, are you maybe interested in a smaller community like Winnipeg or Winkler or Morden or Thompson. Mr. Schuler: That was actually one of the questions I had of the minister. Is there a large centre, centric view of Canada, where you do not sell the finer points of a Winnipeg or a Brandon or Thompson or where it might be in Manitoba or Saskatchewan or Alberta. It tends to be the big centres. Vancouver is an immigrant hot spot.

So is Toronto. The minister would have the numbers in front of her. I am sure Toronto consumes if not 50 percent then certainly the bulk of immigrants, and that is a problem because what happens then is the services tend to congregate there. That tends to be where you have your communities, your chur ches, that kind of thing. It becomes one

July 2, 2002 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 2997 of these self-fulfilling prophecies, right? I mean, that is where they end up going. So I guess my question to the minister is: How do we overcome that kind of Toronto centric viewpoint of immigration? Ms. Barrett: I think the member has raised a good question. What we are doing now is we are becoming more proactive. I think given the reality of the elephant and the mosquito, actually in 200 1 Ontario had almost 60 percent of the immigrants. The next was B.C. which had just over 15 percent.

So you can see just between Ontario and British Columbia the distinction. Then comes Quebec with just 15 percent, then Alberta with 6.5 percent. So you can see the top three are 60 percent, a little over 15 percent, just under 15 percent. Then you jump down to Alberta which is 6.5 percent. Manitoba is next with 1. 82 percent, and then everybody else is down. Saskatchewan is next with .68 percent. It is imbalanced. That is the word to use. That is the reality. When people think about Canada, they think about Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal. Obviously, they think about Toronto. That is why we have become proactive.

That is why we began the Provincial Nominee Program in the first place. It is why it has been so successful. It is why this program is going to be a major catalyst towards getting our fair share of the immigration pie. We have currently about 80 percent of the provincial nominees in the country who come to Manitoba. So we are the Ontario, if you will, of the Provincial Nominee Program. We are the big kid on the block. Now, it is small numbers, but it has expanded rapidly over the last four years. We are retaining the people we get under the PNP. They are staying here. They are enjoying it.

They are going to get word of mouth back to their homes. The applications are going to come. We expect to increase as we have the resources, not only immigration resources but settlement resources to do that. We go to the fairs and we go to visa posts overseas every once in awhile, but really it is going to have to be kind of guerilla warfare, if you will, where we take what we have and we expand on it. So we try and do the economic immigrants and get them to bring their families and other people from their communities, et cetera. It is a challenge, and it is not going to happen from the top.

We are going to have to do the pushing from here. Mr. Schuler: Does the department track where the applicants come from? I am not talking about the initial certificates but those who actually do accept our generous offer, as my colleague said, our most generous offer. Those who come over, where do they actually come from? Ms. Barrett: We have in our database all of the applicants, whether they have been approved, are still in the system or have been denied. When they land here, the federal government tracks that, and they give that information to us. So that is the information we have.

Again, as we talked about earlier, it is much more difficult to track them after they land. It is much more difficult to track where they all are in the system, and it is difficult to identify, although we will do our best to identify the slippage between those that have been approved and those who actually come. We do have the source areas and then we have source countries.

The source areas are Asia and the Pacific in 200 1-now this is just for provincial nominees just over 31 percent; Europe and the United Kingdom is 60 percent, almost 61 percent, but that is Europe and the United Kingdom, so that takes in a lot; and then Africa and the Middle East is 4.75 percent; South and Central America, 2.5; and United States, 0. 31. Now, Mr. Chairman, the top countries, and these are the people who landed. The top countries are Germany, Phil ippines, Bosnia Herzegovina, United Kingdom, Ukraine, Korea, Israel, China, Vietnam and India.

The top two are Germany and the Phili ppines by a long margin. In 2001, Germany, 42 percent and the Philippines, just under 21 percent. Those figures have stayed fairly stable. The next is Bosnia Herzegovina, and that is 6 percent. So, again,

2998 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA July 2, 2002 that is way down. The total for the top 10 countries is about 89 percent of the provincial nominees, and then the rest take up the other. That would be the United States as well. The big three provincial nominees in 200 I. * (1 6:00) Mr. Schuler: We spoke a little bit about the federal government, an area where the minister might have a better idea of where the federal government is going, but from what I can see, it seems to be that they are floundering. They have had some change in the department.

Certainly the ministers have changed, and there does not seem to be a cohesive approach. Is that a fair reflection? I guess why I say that is it seems to be a little chaotic. Tougher security has to be the main issue. We need more immigration, but the latest thing coming out now is the agreement on safe third country. Clearly, as the government of Manitoba's point person on immigration, what kind of concern is there in regard to how there seems to not be a real clear idea or clear direc tion coming from the federal government when it comes to immigration? Ms.

Barrett: I think I would take exception to the word "floundering." Immigration, as I have stated earlier, is the responsibility of the federal government. They have an enormous challenge to face. I may agree or disagree with some of their specific policies and what they do, but I think it is critical that we recognize the challenge that the federal government faces, because they are responsible for immigration in all of the provinces and territories and in all the com munities within those provinces and territories.

On the one hand, they have provinces, the largest number of provinces, who are dying for more immigration because we all have skilled labour shortages and we all have population issues that we have to deal with. We have urban versus rural in Winnipeg and the rest of Manitoba, as you know. I mean, there is that kind of a challenge that they have to look at.

Seven provinces with-1 do not know how much percentage of the population-quite a small percentage of population versus three provinces, well, really one province with a huge percentage of the population and the immigration, and three major centres, Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal who have diametrically the opposite challenge facing them or they perceive it to be: We have too many people coming into Toronto. We do not have the resources. They are overwhelming our English as a second language programs. We do not have housing for them. We have a huge homeless problem in Ontario, certainly com pared to Manitoba.

Do something, Mr. Minister. At the same time, here we are in Manitoba, saying: We do not have enough. We cannot get them to come here. Do something, Mr. Minister. Exactly the opposite issue. It is a huge, huge challenge, and that is why both Eleanor Caplan and Denis Coderre following her have been so pleased with the Provincial Nominee Program because, on a small scale, it is addressing that imbalance. It is bringing people here. It is allow ing people to choose, helping them to choose Manitoba. Yea, we say in Manitoba, those people, when they stay here, they are helping the Canadian numbers go up.

They are helping the Canadian economy, and they are not in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal raising perception of more challenges. The issue of the safe third country, It IS a federal issue. I do not know any more about it than what we read in the newspaper. As has been pointed out to me, this new immigration act is the first major change since 19 78, and it made more of a challenge as any act that has not been changed for that length of time, but because of what has happened in the world since then and most recently in the last year.

So while, on the one hand, you want to protect refugees, we always have had, as a society, a principle and a standard of protecting and helping refugees come to Canada and supporting them, legitimate refugees. You want to do that, but you want to make sure they are legitimate refugees, and that whole issue has been made more and more complicated by the fallout from September 11 and other terrorist situations. Our whole mindset is changing. On the other side, we recognize that, as a country, we want skilled workers, so we have two parts to this.

Well, there are many more parts, but two kind of antithetical elements to

July 2, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2999 this whole process, and it is in the act, too. It is almost like you are schiz ophrenic in a way. No, I should not say that. It is almost like you are, because that is not what it is either. It is like you have two sides almost diametrically opposite to each other, two very important principles that are living uneasily together or in co-existence. One is we want to recruit immigrants; we want to recruit skilled immigrants. There is an argument, and the Member for Pembina (Mr.

Dyck) was raising this issue before, about, well, do we not need unskilled immigrants as well, and we used to bring them in, et cetera. That is an argument that could be made, but the principle is right now that the federal govern ment is saying we want skilled immigrants. We want to recruit them, and, at the same time, we want to protect our principle of support for refugees while ensuring that our borders are safe, and I think that is where the safe third country thing comes in. It is enormously com plicated. I do not know how it can possibly be tidily worked out.

We are, in Manitoba, a very, very, very, very small player in this whole process because we have a small population. We do not have a lot of impact, but we do have more impact than our size would suggest because we have been proactive in our recruitment and retention issues with our Provincial Nominee Program. We have, arguably, the best settlement services in the country. I would argue, because we are a smaller province, we are able to do more with individual families. They do not get lost in the hugeness of a Vancouver or a Toronto.

I cannot imagine living in Toronto or any where in that area anyway ever, and I have the language most of the time. Coming from a country that is very different in all kinds of ways must be just enormously difficult. Then you are there in this huge city where you do not know anyone, where you can have 10 0 000 people from your home country, and you never see any of them because they are spread all over.

This is one thing I have talked about with counterparts and have talked about with community people who come from Toronto or Vancouver to bring greetings for annual celebrations for various community groups, and they recognize and acknowledge that Manitoba, in particular Winnipeg, scale works for a building of community. We have 40 000 to 45 000 Phili ppinos large ly in Winnipeg. They have been able to do what no other Filipino group has been able to do in this country, and that is successfully work together to put in place a stand-alone, state-of the-art, brand-new Phil ippine-Canadian cultural centre.

Other communities may have a larger number of Filipinos in them, but they have not been able to work together. I am just using that community. I could use any one of a number of communities. They all are able to function, I think, partly because of the scale of the city and the province. So big is not necessarily better, but to get "please, Mr. Elephant, federal govern ment, Ontario, hear our concerns and our challenges," is a challenge because we are so small. But we are recognized, on the other side of it, on the federal scene as being very successful at what we do. * (16 :10) Mr.

Schuler: The safe third country, I guess the concern I have that about a year ago it was considered by the federal government, the whole issue was a racist issue, and now is something that is being adopted. I guess I am a little bit concerned that, with 9-1 1, what is taking place is that we are doing policy on the fly, and I am sure the minister will agree that the worst action is a reaction. Certainly, that is the concern coming out of a lot of the immigrant groups, a lot of the immigrant lawyers. They are concerned about where the Government is going.

In part, people are not quite sure where the Government is going, and when it does move, what used to be racist six months ago is now embraced and just welcomed as being good management. I think that is where our concern comes from and will that affect our nominee program, because certainly I do not think I am going out on a limb if I say there is a degree of xenophobia running through the United States, and 9-1 1 just preys on that kind of feeling. Just on a personal note, I have suffered terribly in my business because Americans do not want to travel to Canada because of all the bin Ladens waiting for them.

It is easy to buy

3000 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA July 2, 2002 into that xenophobia that outsiders are a danger, and I think there is a concern in the com munities, and I am sure the minister has heard it and is dealing with it, that the federal govern ment is not immune from that, as well. I ap preciate that they have absolute constitutional authority over immigration, but I just wanted to know from the Manitoba government's position, because there is going to be this meeting, that we be careful that we not buy into a xenophobic kind of position.

Frankly, the United States does not need the immigration as much as we do in Canada. They do not have the same kind of difficulties that we have. I love to hear American politicians get up and talk about our poor immigration system when the U.S.- Mexican border is a sieve. I mean, good heavens, you could have millions of terrorists coming across the border there, and they have no way to stop it. Yet all the finger pointing tends to be towards Canada and our few nominees that they want to deny us.

So, what I would like, if the minister wanted to sort of reflect on that to make sure that that kind of xenophobic attitude that anybody who is an immigrant or an outsider is a threat to our national security, that that not be part of the October discussions and frankly we have seen some of that at the federal level. Ms. Barrett: Let me start by saying I do not disagree with what the member is saying.

I think that the United States is challenged in its views of immigrants at some time, although, again, a country like Canada, perhaps older in some ways but similar, the immigrants, the American dream was fueled, once they got rid of the pesky little First Nations, by immigrants, and, in many cases, felons. The state of Georgia was first settled as a penal colony. The Mayflower, those who came over on the Mayflower, those who settled Pennsylvania were in their home countries seen as felons and traitors and bizarre individuals-good, leave, let us get rid of you. Perception is based on perspective.

I do not disagree with the member that there are differences in how the two countries view immigration at this point in time. I think by and large we are more open as a country to immi gration. I state every chance I get, I much prefer the mosaic to the melting pot. I think there is an enormous amount of xenophobia. I think it is really hard for the United States to see itself to be the only power in the world. I am not being charita ble. I think having that view, whether it is real or not, just colours everything. There is the sense that it is our way or the highway.

I have challenges when I go back to the States to

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-3-57
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 3rd hansardpdf 57.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	3c27b77084b5eb3a3d6683e90afca41736f991e2

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