Manitoba Hansard — 13 March 1995 (Sitting 17A, 35th Legislature, 6th Session)

35-6-17a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

- Sixth Session - Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker Vol. XLIV No.17A -1:30 p.m., Monday, March 13,1995 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name Constituem;y ~ ASHTON, Steve Thompson NDP BARRETT, Becky Wellington NDP CERILLI, Marianne Radisson NDP CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan NDP CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUA Y, Louise Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Rossell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk NDP DOER, Gary Concordia NDP DOWNEY, James, Hon. Arthur- Virden P.C. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Steinbach P.C. DUCHARME, Gerald, Hon. Riel P.C. EDWARDS, Paul St. James Lib. ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside P.C. ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charleswood P.C.

EVANS, Clif Interlake NDP EVANS, Leonard S. Brandon East NDP FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo P.C. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield P.C. FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley NDP GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface Lib. GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa P.C. GRAY, Avis Crescentwood Lib. HEL WER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES, George Point Douglas NDP KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples Lib. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LA THLIN, Oscar The Pas NDP LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns NDP MALOWA Y, Jim Elmwood NDP MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. Morris P.C. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows NDP -McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek P.C.

McCORMICK, Norma Osborne Lib. McCRAE, James, Hon. Brandon West P.C. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia P.C. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East P.C. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. Pembina P.C. PALLISTER, Brian Portage Ia Prairie P.C. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PLOHMAN, John Dauphin NDP PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona NDP REIMER, Jack Niakwa P.C. RENDER, Shirley St. Vital P.C. ROBINSON, Eric Rupertsland NDP ROCAN, Denis, Hon. Gladstone P.C. ROSE, Bob Turtle Mountain P.C. SANTOS, Conrad Broadway NDP SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere NDP STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Park P.C.

SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye P.C. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fort Garry P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River NDP Vacant River Heights Vacant Flin Flon

799 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, March 13, 1995 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Messages Commonwealth Day Message Mr. Speaker: I am advised that I have a message from Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, her Commonwealth Day Message, and I would have to ask all members to please rise while we read her message. Commonwealth Day Message 1995, from Her Majesty the Queen, Head of the Commonwealth. The General Assembly has proclaimed 1995 as the United Nations Year for Tolerance, a choice which is particularly appropriate for the Golden Jubilee of the United Nations organization itself.

The same theme has been chosen for this year's Commonwealth Day. We in the Commonwealth can teach the rest of the world something about tolerance because it is at the heart of the unique association to which we belong. Although our countries are spread all over the world and face many different problems, we know a great deal about each other and it is therefore easier for us to understand each other's point of view even when we disagree. That understanding is essential to a tolerant society, which is not simply one which gives to the individual scope and freedom from restraint.

Rather it is a society which actively develops the people who belong to it, brings out their gifts and enriches their lives because it values their diversity. It does not condone persecution or the harming of some people by others, but it knows how to make allowances when things go wrong. It can forgive mistakes as well as giving encouragement and guidance on how to avoid them. It knows also that enhancing the quality of life of the individual brings benefit to the family, to the community, to the nation and to international relations.

That sort of tolerance is something which all of us must learn if we are to restore peace in the world, and here the young people of the Commonwealth have a special part to play. The young have the vision and ability to make the world a better place and are not fettered by experience. They can see where the older generation have made their mistakes through intolerance, and they can do better. Over the last year we have seen shining examples of this quality in action in the emergence of new South Africa, which I shall be visiting next week, and in the recent signs of change in Northern Ireland.

We pray that these examples will inspire everyone to try harder to make tolerance a universal rule of life. On this Commonwealth Day, as we make the traditional affirmations which are at the centre of the Commonwealth Day observance, I send to all of you, with these examples in mind, a message of encouragement and hope for the future. Signed Elizabeth R., the 13th ofMarch, 1995. PRESENTING PETITIONS Communities' Public Education Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Sonia-Rae Cashman, James Dakers, Warren Kozuvarovski and others requesting the Minister of Education

800 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 13, I 995 and Training (Mr. Manness) to reconsider the funding model to ensure that Thompson and other communities in this province are able to maintain quality public education. Physical Education in Schools Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of E. Sokoliwski, Irene Leperre, AI Compton and others urging the Minister responsible for Education to consider reinstating physical education as a compulsory core subject area. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Communities' Public Education Mr.

Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Ashton). It complies with the privileges and the practices of this House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Yes. The Clerk will read. Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS funding for public schools by the provincial government has been cut twice in the past three years; and

WHEREAS provincial funding for the school district of Mystery Lake has dropped by nearly $2 million over the same period, more than I 0 percent; and

WHEREAS funding for private schools has increased by over I I 0 percent under the same provincial government; and

WHEREAS Thompson was faced with a 48 percent increase in the education support levy tax as a result of reassessment in 1993, resulting in $500,000 leaving our community; and

WHEREAS the Thompson school district is now faced with a massive $1.8-million deficit equivalent to a 48 percent increase in local school taxes; and

WHEREAS unless the minister reviews this funding the Thompson school district will be forced to consider both a $500,000 tax increase and severe program cuts totalling over $1.3 million. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly request the Minister of Education and Training (Mr. Manness) to reconsider the funding model to ensure that Thompson and other communities in this province are able to maintain quality public education. TABLING OF REPORTS Mr. Speaker: I am pleased to table the Provincial Auditor's Report on Public Accounts for the year ended March 3 I, I 994, Volume 2. *

(1335) MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Manitoba Curling Champions Bon. Jim Ernst (Minister responsible for Sport): Mr. Speaker, I have a statement for the House. Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to recognize the Manitoba rinks who have reclaimed our curling supremacy as Canada's curling power. Yesterday's outstanding performance by the Kerry Burtnyk rink at the men's championships in Halifax capped off an unbelievable year for Manitoba's athletes. I would like to congratulate the 1995 junior men's champions from the Fort Rouge Curling Club: Chris Galbraith, Scott Cripps, Brent Barrett, Bryan Galbraith and their coach, Arnold -

March 13, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 801 Asham; the 1995 junior women's champions from the Deer Lodge Curling Club: Kelly MacKenzie, Joanne Fillion, Carlene Muth, Sasha Bergner and their coach, Bill MacKenzie; the 1995 women's curling champions from the Fort Rouge Curling Club: Connie Laliberte, Cathy Overton, Cathy Gauthier, Janet Arnot, Debbie Jones- Walker, Karen Purdy and their coach, Tom Clasper; and finally, the 1995 Canadian men's curling champions: the Manitoba rink of Kerry Burtnyk, Jeff Ryan, Rob Meakin, Keith Fenton and Denis Fillion.

I join all Manitobans and I hope all members of this House in thanking these athletes for their achievements in bringing these much coveted championships to the home of champions, Manitoba. I join all Canadians in wishing you the best of luck and good curling at the world championships, two of which will be held in Brandon, Manitoba later this year. Thank you very much. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to join with all members of the House in congratulating the great, great performances and championships of Manitoba curlers in all the national championships that have taken place in this country this year. I know that we are all looking forward to the world championships in Brandon. What a great, great situation to have the two Canadian representatives to be from Manitoba in that championship game. Mr. Speaker, I know that it was already good news when the Burtnyk rink was fighting Saskatchewan, two prairie rinks.

Of course, it was great to see Kerry Burtnyk and his team of Jeff Ryan, Rob Meakin, Keith Fenton and the fifth, Denis Fillion win again for Manitoba. They join of course Connie Laliberte, Chris Galbraith and Kelly MacKenzie in those great, great victories. We want to again on behalf of our side congratulate them. Obviously, Manitoba is the curling championship centre of Canada, and we are very, very proud of that, as well.

I am sure there will be some nonpolitical statements after Question Period, but I also want to congratulate the University of Winnipeg women's basketball team that for three years in a row has won the Canadian women's university championships. So we also want to congratulate that basketball team too. Thank you very much. Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwood): Mr. Speaker, I, too, rise on behalf of my colleagues in the Liberal Party to give congratulations to our fine curlers here in Manitoba.

I think it is very gratifying that as we have ministerial statements and oftentimes this is a House of adversary and complaints and whining that in fact we can all agree that Manitoba is the centre of curling in Canada. As a regular curler at the Charleswood Curling Club where, in fact, Kelly MacKenzie hails, we are certainly very, very pleased with her win as junior champion. We also bring congratulations to Chris Galbraith, Connie Laliberte and Kerry Burtnyk. I think some of us had an opportunity to take out a few hours on Sunday to actually watch that very exciting game, and indeed it was.

We certainly wish all the best to Kerry Burtnyk and Connie Laliberte as they enter the World Curling Championships in Brandon, Manitoba. *

(1340) INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill14-- The Louis Riel Institute Act Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, I would move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns), that leave be given to introduce Bill 14, The Louis Riel Institute Act;

Loi sur l'Institut Louis

802 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 13, 1995 Riel, and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speaker, this particular piece of legislation provides for the incorporation of the Louis Riel Institute, which will promote educational training for Manitoba's Metis people and will serve as a centre for research into Manitoba's history. The act, in itself, is an incorporation document which sets out the structure of the institute, its powers, et cetera, that are part or fundamental to its creation.

It is hoped that in this I 25th anniversary of Manitoba's entry into Confederation through this act the institute will help raise the awareness of the vital role of the Metis people in the founding of our province, as well as provide for ongoing contributions in the area of historical research and improvement of educational opportunities for Metis people. Motion agreed to. TABLING OF REPORTS Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery, where we have with us today His Excellency Ant6in Mac Unfraidh, the Ambassador of Ireland to Canada. On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon, sir. Also with us this afternoon in the public gallery from the Maple Leaf School, we have sixty-two Grade 5 students under the direction of Mrs. Metcalfe. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson). Also, from the F.W.

Gilbert School, we have thirty-five Grade 5 students under the direction ofMrs. Merle Stepaniuk. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Labour (Mr. Praznik). On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you all here this afternoon. Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, may I have * (1345) leave to return to Tabling of Reports, please? Mr. Speaker: Is there leave to revert to Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports? Leave? [agreed] Mr. Findlay: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to table the 1993-94 Annual Report ofthe Highways and Transportation department. A report has been previously distributed to all members. Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Labour): I would also like to table today the 1993-94 Annual Report of the Manitoba Civil Service Commission, as well as the two quarterly reports for the Communities Economic Development Fund as of December 1994, as well as of September 1994. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Gambling Social Costs Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier.

Over the weekend, Judge Dubienski commented on the tragedy of an individual who was cited and convicted oftheft of$35,000 and commented about society's dependency upon gambling to balance its budgets. This falls upon other reported incidents and other incidents that we have been told about with gambling, VL Ts, I think, with a pharmacy theft in December of 1994, other situations in terms of gambling, -

March 13, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 803 which no one in this House, I know, feels very good about. Mr. Speaker, the government has created a committee to study the issue of gambling. At the same time, the government has put massive amounts of money and revenue into this budget and future years' budgets from gambling, well over $3 80 million this year in their budget, and in future years, obviously, it has to be a very high amount of money.

I would like to ask the Premier, is there any latitude, given the tight financial situation and the cutbacks from the federal government in health and post-secondary education, to decrease the amount of gambling activity if the committee so finds that it is contributing to crime here in our province? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I thank the Leader of the Opposition for the question. I, too, noted the comments in the newspaper on the weekend and certainly am concerned about the potential and the reality of side effects of gaming within our province, as I would expect people are in all jurisdictions.

I know that the New Democrats who were responsible for the formation of the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation, who were responsible for bringing in the first lotteries into Manitoba, who were responsible for opening the first casino in Manitoba, who were responsible for setting up the two big bingo parlours in Manitoba, I am sure that they had concerns in their day about the impacts of gaming in our province. Mr.

Speaker, I note that next door to us, in neighbouring Saskatchewan under a New Democratic administration, they have not only allocated $95 million of revenues from their VL Ts in their budget this year, they have also committed to setting up four casinos on First Nations reserves in that province.

One of the things our province has done--and know that when I was in Saskatchewan a couple of months ago to speak to the Saskatoon Chamber of Commerce, I was engaged in discussion by the media about this, because they were interested in the commitment that our government has made through the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba to the support, education and other services to people who may suffer a gambling addiction. I would say to the Leader of the Opposition that despite the fact that there is a projection in this year's budget of $220 million of revenues from gaming, we are prepared for future years.

We are prepared, Mr. Speaker, to listen to the advice that is given to the Desjardins commission, and we are prepared to take advice from them in the future as to their views as to what ought to be done with respect to all of these issues that surround gaming in our province. *

(1350) Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Revenue Projections Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): As the Premier would know, the revenue from gambling has gone from $52 million to well over $240 million on a yearly basis, plus the one time-only payment in the budget, and the Premier did not answer the question about how dependent are they on lottery revenue in light of the commission that has been established by the government and in light of Judge Dubienski's statements and other statements that have been made by other judges in the past dealing with this issue. Mr.

Speaker, over the weekend, the Conference Board official, Mr. Darby indicated, and I quote: It seems that everyone but Mr. Stefanson is predicting the economy is going to crash in '97 and that weaker revenues are expected than what is in the budget. Given the fact, Mr. Speaker, that we have zero percent increased spending in the next three years, the government has admitted that they

804 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 13, 1995 have not built in the $240 million in health and post-secondary cuts from the federal Liberal government, I would like to ask the Premier, what are the projections for revenue increases in the Lotteries Corporation vis-a-vis the rest of the economy? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, I found it interesting that a federal bureaucrat who obviously had not read our budget had made those comments, because in comparing the projections of what is contained within the federal budget, the basis on which they made their revenue projections, in 1995 their basis is substantially higher. They are expecting substantially higher growth than we are in Manitoba as the basis for their revenue projections. The same thing in 1996, their projections for revenue growth are substantially higher than Manitoba's are.

So, obviously, he did not have any part to play in the development of the federal budget, or else he would have known that our projections for revenue growth are more conservative than theirs are. That is part of it, Mr. Speaker. The answer with respect to the question on gaming revenues is the one that was given by the Finance minister, and that is that they represent between 3 and 4 percent of our total revenues in that respect. They are not by any stretch of the imagination the major source of revenues.

They are not by any stretch of the imagination a revenue that is the only source that we are depending upon or even the major source. They represent between 3 and 4 percent. You do not balance a budget on 3 or 4 percent of your revenues. You do not make all your critical decisions based on 3 or 4 percent of your revenues. It is the expenditure controls that we have put in for seven years in office. It is the growth of the economy that is producing the balanced budget, and, Mr.

Speaker, that compares, I might say, to a Saskatchewan balanced budget in which they have over $180 million as a one-time transfer out of GRIP that will disappear next year, and they face the same kinds of massive federal cutbacks in transfer payments that we do. Report Release Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): The Premier will acknowledge that no other source of revenue that the government has gone from $50 million seven years ago to $240 million and climbing, Mr. Speaker, with this government. Mr.

Speaker, the government has quoted other reports, and the government has the option of releasing information to the public. Last week, I asked the Premier why we have page after page censored in the government report dealing with lotteries and demographics, lotteries and issues like the profile of people so we could look at the issue of potential crimes--page after page of blank pages.

I would like to ask the Premier why in the province of Manitoba do we have withholding of information, censored information in terms of the public of Manitoba, and why do we have uncensored reports in Saskatchewan, Alberta and British Columbia dealing with this whole issue of gambling? What is this government hiding here in the province of Manitoba? *

(1355) Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, we had, of course, instances under New Democratic administrations in which we found out about the major sources of revenue and how they increased under New Democrats--a $200 million increase in the payroll tax, from zero to $200 million under a New Democratic administration, fleeced out of the pockets of all the small businesses in Manitoba that condemned and killed jobs in this province. That is the kind of treatment that Manitobans do not want any part of. I will repeat for the Leader of the Opposition what I told him last Friday, and that is that we

March 13, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 805 have abided by the requirements of the act, The Freedom of Information Act that was passed by the NDP government of this province, and that is what was produced in accordance with The Freedom oflnformation Act. If they did not like the act, they should not have passed it. You had a choice to pass

an act that would have required that information if you saw it as necessary. Pediatric Cardiac Care Program Inquest Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, the government and minister appear to be changing their minds with respect to the inquiry concerning the deaths at Children's Hospital, and I would like to ask the minister today, can he outline specifically what the government's position is with respect to a public inquiry into the pediatric deaths at Children's Hospital, and when might that inquiry commence? Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, from the very beginning, it has been my position that what the families of the deceased children and what the general public needs is the truth surrounding all of the matters related to the pediatric cardiac program at Health Sciences Centre, not only in the recent past but going further back to the '80s, as well, when there were very high mortality rates reported in those days. All of those matters need to be looked at, Mr. Speaker, and the position I have taken in discussions with the families is that I feel that the inquest route, as ordered by the Chief Medical Examiner, is the route that is there.

It is for this purpose. It is set out in The Fatality Inquiries Act, but I will be consulting with the families after the inquest is over to inquire as to whether all of the questions that they need to have answered are indeed answered. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, that appears to be backwards.

Will the minister today give assurances that the effects of government cutbacks, the role of the Department of Health under various ministers, the role of the Chief Medical Examiner, the systematic approach to surgery at the hospital, the way that information is provided to parents, the ability to retain doctors and other specialists in the province and the way that programs are decided upon and determined at our hospitals--will all that be part of the inquest the minister is ordering? Mr. McCrae: The assurance I have asked for and received, Mr. Speaker, is yes. Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, my final supplementary to the minister: Will the minister, in the interim--and he did not indicate when the inquest will commence--until some kind of conclusion comes out of this inquest, perhaps followed by an inquiry process, will the minister give assurances to this House that any deficiencies that have thus far been identified in the system, including perhaps staff shortages at the Chief Medical Examiner's office and perhaps of pathologists at the Health Sciences Centre, that extra resources will be put in to ensure that the checks and balances that are now in place will be effectively in place until we finally have a conclusion to any inquiry or inquest in this matter?

Mr. McCrae: Well, the one thing I will not do, Mr. Speaker, is speculate on what the inquest hearing officer, what his or her findings will be, nor will I speculate on what the recommendations are, but I can tell you one thing, we want to leave no stone untumed in arriving at a thorough understanding of the program, and whatever improvements might be recommended would be followed. Of course, Mr.

Speaker, the highest priority, as I have said, is to ensure that the families of deceased children are properly dealt with by all of the various authorities and that we have the safest possible system available for Manitoba children in the future. *

(1400) 806 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 13, 1995 Pediatric Cardiac Care Program Western Canadian Consolidation Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, let me say that I am pleased that the Minister of Health is starting this process with that attitude of a very full, thorough review, including the government itself. Let me simply say that I hope that gets started as soon as possible, as I think we all do. Mr. Speaker, five years ago in June of 1990, Dr.

John Wade, who is now the Deputy Minister of Health, took on the task of travelling across western Canada on behalf of the Western Council of Teaching Hospitals, the Western Deans of Medical Schools and the western Canada Deputy Ministers of Health. He published a report in June of 1990 recommending a western Canadian health consortium, and the study concluded in part-and I am going to just read one sentence from that report, and I will table a copy of it.

It is dated June 1990 and it states in part: Clinical programs such as organ transplantation or pediatric cardiac surgery were cited as areas where some rationalization may occur and indeed that these programs might be linked to residency education and to highly developed research programs. My question for the minister: Given that the minister's office had this back in 1990, five years ago, what did the ministry do, what did the government do to work towards the consortium, the consolidation of cardiac pediatric surgery across western Canada in view of this recommendation? Hon.

James McCrae (Minister of Health): That report, along with recommendations made by a number of physicians in 1991 and other advice received, led to the chief executive officer of the Health Sciences Centre working with the medical people involved to address some of the concerns they had. It also led to the Bell-Wade review of tertiary care in Manitoba. It also led to a Memorandum of Understanding between the Health Sciences Centre and St. Boniface Hospital with respect to the future of tertiary care programs in Manitoba. It also led to the recruitment of and the arrival of Dr.

Bill Lindsay who is here in Manitoba to head up our cardiac program. With Dr. Wade as deputy minister, Dr. Lindsay in place and others, and with whatever benefit we receive in the future from an inquest into all of these matters, we can move forward hopefully to improved and the safest kinds of practices that we can bring about for the benefit of young cardiac patients. I am sure everyone would agree with me, Mr.

Speaker, ifl were to say that if Winnipeg is the safest place for us to provide this kind of service, that would be great, but if that cannot be and ought not to be, then we have to seek the safest and the best that we can for the children of Manitoba. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the summation by the minister of what was done in the wake of this report internally in Manitoba. I acknowledge that those things certainly were done. What this report recommends is a western Canadian approach to cardiac pediatric surgery.

My question again for the minister: Given that that was the recommendation, that this was a clinical area where consolidation and rationalization across the region may well make sense, and that was after many site visits and travelling across western Canada, what did the government do, if anything, to try to pursue a western Canadian approach to this area of surgery? Mr. McCrae: I believe the cardiac community in Canada engages in a fair amount of discussion and planning and talking and recommending.

The report to which the honourable member refers would be one of many pieces of advice received by any number of people over the years.

March 13, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 807 As I say in response not only to this but to many other comments made along the way, Mr. Speaker, the matters I mentioned in my last answer is the way that things have unfolded. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, we will look forward to more detailed answers regarding what discussions ensued between western provinces in the wake of this, if any. Mr.

Speaker, my final question for the minister: This report also indicates, and I am going to quote: Under the aegis of the health advisory network of Manitoba, a teaching hospital survey is underway by Michael Lloyd and Associates. Although these results are not now available, they may provide an inventory of the teaching and clinical programs delivered in western Canada. Was, in fact, the Lloyd report done? It is not a report that I am familiar with under that title. Was that report done? Is the minister prepared to table that, which clearly appears to be something that Dr.

Wade, at the time he wrote this, was pointing to in the area of clinical consolidation across western Canada. Mr. McCrae: I will review the last question and get back to the honourable member. Restorative Resolutions Funding Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Justice. This follows my correspondence to the minister last month. In two weeks time, the Restorative Resolutions project sponsored by the John Howard Society sees its funding expire.

The unique project finally makes offenders face up and make up to the victim and to the community and actually seeks to change behaviour for the better. It is tough in the real sense. My question is, would the minister finally agree to continue funding this project so that a conclusive evaluation can be done? Bon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr.

Speaker, the member should know that in December of 1994, our government made the commitment to continue the project for another year at the level of funding which we have been providing, that is, seconding a member of our Probation staff and also providing funding. As the member knows, the federal government indicated that they were not prepared to continue participating in this project, so we look to the federal government to pick up what they have decided again to leave, leaving victims in this province just waiting. Mr.

Mackintosh: Well, given that the federal government initially offered to fund this project for three years, but the province said, no, 18 months is all the funding we require, how can the minister blame the federal government, especially when the benefits both in terms of public safety and cost benefit reap to the province? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, the province funded this program for 18 months and has extended it another year, but again, we have the federal government who is refusing to continue the project for the purposes of evaluation and put their money on the table.

This is really a concern to us because the federal government has indicated that they are looking for methods to deal with offenders outside of our institutions. This government has supported this project. It certainly deals with a category of offenders who admit to their guilt and who satisfy certain criteria before the court. So I say again to the member in answer, the same answer that was given earlier, we are prepared to continue our commitment. We have

808 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 13, 1995 communicated that. We look for the federal government to now continue their commitment. Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, how can a government that has worsened all the conditions to breed the worst crime in Canada explain the record 13,000 victims of break and enter in Winnipeg alone last year, why this minister is walking away from a project that will likely make Manitobans safer and give a real role for the victim? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Speaker, let me just begin by recounting to the member all of the initiatives that this government have put forward to make Manitoba safer. We have taken the toughest stand on the Young Offenders Act all across Canada. We have moved both our youth institutions and our adult institutions into rigorous confinement to make sure that there are, in fact, consequences. We introduced, approximately 10 days ago, a program called "No Need to Argue," which encourages young people to become involved in finding the solutions to youth crime and violence.

We announced the first program across Canada that will release the names of sexual predators where they continue to pose a risk to Manitobans. We have taken the toughest stand on antistalking. We have requested that the federal Minister of Justice make changes in the Criminal Code in the area of antistalking that will benefit the victim, and, in fact, we believe will keep the victim safer. We have increased the number of youth justice committees in this province. We continue to make Manitoba a safer place. Budget Revenue Projections Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance, who has brought in a rather surrealistic VL T budget for the people of Manitoba. This budget and its forecast of future surpluses is based on a number of unrealistic assumptions, including revenue growth projections that are based on overly optimistic forecasts of future economic growth. Economists are predicting an economic slowdown in Manitoba before 1997, which will cause revenues to decline. My question to the minister is, how can the Minister of Finance, therefore, in all seriousness, project this kind of future revenue increases in this province? *

(1410) Bon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): am glad the member for Brandon East asked that question, Mr. Speaker. He is obviously responding to a comment made by a fellow from the Conference Board of Canada in the Free Press, I believe on Friday, but I wish that individual had taken the time to contact myself or officials in my department because what he would find is that the economic assumptions used in our budget are amongst the most conservative in all of Canada.

They are lower than the economic assumptions for the Conference Board for which he works, the Conference Board of Canada, the economic assumptions that we are using in this budget. I think unfortunately what happened--and I will point this out for the member for Brandon East--is in the appendix in the budget that deals with the economy, we show the economic projections as an average of the seven forecasters, but those are not the projections that we use in preparing our own financial information, Mr. Speaker. We take much more conservative numbers. We took the numbers from Informetrica.

They are significantly lower than the projections of the seven forecasters, and they are lower than the Conference Board of Canada. We do that to be cautious and to be conservative, so that when things unfold, they tend to unfold in a much -

March 13, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 809 more positive sense for us, as is the case in 1994- 95, where we are going to have $140 million more of own-source revenue than we were budgeting a year ago. That is because we are cautious, we are conservative. The forecast in here, if he wants to take the time and compare them to other provinces and the federal government, he will find that they are very conservative in relationship to every other one and at the lower end in terms of the assumption, not the higher end. Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr. Speaker, Statistics Canada has just said that for 1993, we had negative 0.2 percent growth in Manitoba,

whereas the budget document is telling us we had 2.8 percent positive growth. You are saying one thing and Stats Canada has just come out with figures saying we have had negative growth in 1993, so I do not know how much of this material we can believe. Will the minister acknowledge that his budget projections over the next three years of no increases in spending is equivalent to real cuts in spending when inflation is taken into account, and therefore will the minister acknowledge that this means that there will be additional cuts to health care, to education and social services in years ahead? Mr.

Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, it is the typical attitude across the way that got us into the financial difficulties that we have been dealing with for the last several years. The answer is always spend more money and tax Manitoba's citizens more. We do not do that. We have held the line on spending. We have not increased taxes in Manitoba, but at the same time we have shown our priorities as being health care, education and support for families. Today, we are spending 72 cents out of every program dollar in those three areas alone. When we took office in 1988, it was 66 cents. Today, Mr.

Speaker, there is over a billion dollars more being spent in those three areas of health, education and support to families than when we took office back in 1988. Over 90 percent of the expenditure increases during those eight budgets are in those three areas. I think the facts speak for themselves in terms of the commitment we make to those very important areas, while at the same time controlling overall spending and keeping taxes down in Manitoba, which is what Manitobans want, not the kinds of tax increases they had during the early '80s under the NDP. PayroU Tax Elimination Mr.

Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I recall the Premier of Manitoba on this side saying that when they are elected, there will be absolutely no payroll taxes. They will disappear completely, absolutely, totally. Yet, Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the minister, will the Minister of Finance acknowledge- [interjection] Yes, we took out a lot of the small businesses.

We have eliminated most of the small businesses, and you did it a bit more, but will this minister acknowledge that this government will never ever eliminate the payroll tax, as promised by its Leader and that in this budget, itself, he is showing payroll taxes on business in Manitoba of $193 million. It is still here. Will you admit that you will never get rid of it? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Mr.

Speaker, today, under our government, 90 percent of the businesses in Manitoba do not pay the payroll tax, and we will continue to improve on that outstanding record, unlike the kinds of tax policies that we saw under the NDP which was introducing and increasing a payroll tax, increasing personal income tax, increasing the sales tax, and the list of tax increases under their administration go on and on. Those are not the kinds of policies you have under this government. Eight budgets with no

810 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 13, 1995 increase in major taxes here in Manitoba, a record unmatched probably anywhere in the world, certainly anywhere in North America- quite a contrast to the kind of tax-and-spend policies that Manitoba had to live through under the NDP in the early '80s. Public Housing Federal Funding Reduction Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): My question is for the Minister of Housing. Over the past few years, we have had many commitments from the federal Liberal government about the importance of public housing for the working poor and low income Manitobans.

However, it appears the federal budget has virtually wiped out all funding for social housing with a cut of $270 million over three years plus $36 million eliminated for administration. I want to ask the minister, what is the expected provincial impact here in Manitoba from these cuts, and will we see another substantial increase in the rents for those in public housing in Manitoba? Bon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Housing): I thank the member for the question. I say more in sorrow than in anger that we have been devastated in this budget by the federal Liberal government.

We knew last year that they, in January '94, cut off all funding for construction of new social housing. I now have in my possession a letter from the Minister of Housing indicating that they will cut the overall social housing budget by $270 million over the next three years. Also, they are indicating they are looking for further opportunities for savings and efficiencies in social housing. They are also going to close 20 of the 48 field offices across the country, reducing the administration budget by $36 million, and it is devastating. There is no other word for it.

We, last time when the federal mmtster encouraged all provinces to go to 30 percent RGI, refused to do that. We remained at 27 percent. We will do everything within our power to try to ameliorate the effects of what the federal Liberals are doing to public housing across the country in the next three years. I share the member's concern. It will be very difficult. Any suggestions or help that the NDP can offer, I would be most pleased to listen to and work together to try to still provide for the working poor who really are going to be very badly impacted by this. Gilbert Park Renovation/Maintenance Funding Ms.

Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): I met this morning with the tenants' association from the Gilbert Park housing complex, who were expecting $3.6 million in renovation money which is much needed. They have not had renovations there for some 20 years. I want to ask the minister if she has information that the maintenance money for public housing is going to be reduced so that we are going to see unsafe, unhealthy dilapidated housing for people across Canada and Manitoba based on this federal Liberal government's budget. [interjection] Bon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Housing): Mr.

Speaker, I am really offended that the Leader of the Liberal Party would even have the gall to heckle from his seat on this kind of topic. How dare he, after all his party is doing to us, his party, the record that he ties himself to because he has no record of his own. He borrows their record and ties himself to it, and he will live by it and he will die by it, and I do not wish to hear another word from him about the federal Liberals in this House. Mr. Speaker, I share the member's concern about Gilbert Park, and I would hope that the Liberal Party would, as well, because their member for Inkster (Mr.

Lamoureux) has been

March 13, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 811 working with Gilbert Park. The people in that particular housing complex have formed an association, are working with the Department of Housing to assume some of the control of property management and that type of thing in that complex. They have done wonderful things in terms of bringing that project up to snuff. I do not wish to see any cuts occur there. I do not intend to have any cuts occur there, but we will have to be very creative in how we manage the problems and the expenses that come down the tubes over the next three years.

Public Housing Federal Funding Reduction Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, it seems like the minister is agreeing with me that the federal offioading in the budget is going to be balancing the budget on the backs of the poorest people in Manitoba. Will she ensure that we are not going to see the federal Liberal proposal go forward, so that the rent geared to income for public housing is 30 percent, which is going to wipe out public housing in this country? Will she ensure that there is a ceiling introduced and that public housing is not a thing of the past in Manitoba and in Canada? [interjection] *

(1420) Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Housing): Mr. Speaker, the member is chirping away in his seat telling them to wind me up. I am saying, wind him down. The member raises a point that I will do everything in my power to address. We had, under the previous administration, been told that if the provinces across the nation could generate savings in public housing, we would be allowed to use those savings for new housing projects. Indeed, the savings that were supposed to have come from all the provinces going to 30 percent were to be turned back to the provinces to utilize.

That commitment has also been withdrawn. The savings the provinces generated over the last year are now going to be taken by Ottawa and not returned to the provinces, so I am very dubious about raising the RGI up to 30 percent in case we see no benefit back from it. I do not know yet what the results will be. know the Housing ministers across the nation will be meeting to talk about this calamity and try to come up with an action that will help protect housing for the working poor. Hazardous Waste Management Corporation Divestiture Ms. Norma McCormick (Osborne): Mr.

Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Environment. Continued uncertainty with respect to the future of the Manitoba Hazardous Waste Management Corporation has produced an era of predatory pricing and disruption in the marketplace. What is the status of the government's plans with respect to the sale of the corporation? Have local companies come forward to express an interest in the purchase? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Yes, Mr. Speaker, both local and national interests are being expressed in the corporation. Competition Ms.

Norma McCormick (Osborne): I have a supplementary for the same minister. The pricing structures have caused the market prices to be driven down by 30 percent. The companies in the business report that their revenue volumes are down an equal amount. Over the past two years, Laidlaw's workforce has gone from a high of 21 to less than half, now 10 people employed there today.

812 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 13, 1995 My question for the minister: Does the government intend to continue to subsidize this corporation as it competes in this marketplace? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, I reject the implication that the member is making that somehow this corporation is being subsidized to compete in the marketplace. On the other hand, if she is suggesting that a 30 percent reduction in cost to the companies that are operating in this province is somehow wrong, then I suggest she check her priorities. Mandate Ms.

Norma McCormick (Osborne): I have a final supplementary. Does the minister sanction the corporation operating outside its mandate by selling recycled industrial chemicals produced in Wisconsin at close to half the local market price? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, I made inquiries this morning as to the veracity of that issue.

Let me assure you that it is not the corporation's intention to be competing in any way that is seen to be unfair or unreasonable in the marketplace, but when you look at the Manitoba marketplace, between Laidlaw's and the Manitoba Hazardous Waste Management Corporation, they are, in fact, managing over 90 percent, I believe, of Manitoba's hazardous waste between those two companies, and, Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that given the pricing structure that is available in this province, it makes Manitoba a highly competitive place to do business. Employment Creation Strategy Summer Youth Programs Ms.

Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Education. Over the last two years, this government has systematically cut support for students. They eliminated Student Social Allowances. They eliminated Manitoba bursaries. They have frozen student loans at a period when student fees have increased over 54 percent in Manitoba institutions. Will the minister explain why he chose this year in the budget to cut by up to 30 percent all but one of the summer youth programs of his department which had enabled students to find summer work? Hon.

Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I have to take a little bit of issue with the member's

preamble. There has been no province in Canada that has attempted to hold down student tuition fees like the province of Manitoba over the last three years. We have taken the lead with respect to capping those fees at increases of no greater than 5 percent. Other provinces have now followed us, so I reject what the member says with respect to tuition increases being of the magnitude of 54 percent, I think, using her terms.

So, with respect to the student youth programs, some of the funding has been decreased because there has not been, in spite of what the member wants to believe, an uptake totally in some of those programs. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Speaker's Ruling Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I have a ruling for the House. On December 20, 1994, I took under advisement a matter of privilege raised by the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton). The matter concerned the sale of A.E. McKenzie Seeds.

I believe the main points raised by the honourable member for Thompson were that the corporate privileges of the House had been breached by the way in which the sale was

March 13, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 813 handled, specifically by the announcement of the sale by press release, by the government's refusal to provide a copy of the agreement for sale, by the government's refusal to call the standing committee to review the annual report of McKenzie Seeds and by the failure of the government to make a statement in the House respecting the sale. Let me move to the heart of the matter. This is not a matter of privilege.

Ministers are not required to make announcements and communications to the public through the House--Beauchesne Citation 31 (I 0)--and statements made outside the House may not serve as the basis for privilege--Beauchesne Citation 31(3). The government has not disobeyed the authority of the House, nor do the collective or corporate privileges of the House require a debate on the sale of a Crown corporation. The government can be held accountable through Question Period, through the Estimates process and by the standing committee process.

What the honourable member for Thompson has is a complaint or grievance, and as I referenced in my ruling of June 13, 1991, a complaint that a minister has made a statement outside the House rather than in the House may amount to a grievance against the government, but without an order of the House forbidding such activity, there is no personal or corporate privilege breached, and it does not constitute a contempt of the House in the "privilege" sense. Therefore I regret to advise the honourable for Thompson that there is no prima facie case.

NONPOLITICAL STATEMENTS Canadian Interuniversity Athletic Union Championship Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek have leave for a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Speaker, the past weekend the University of Manitoba's men's track and field team won the second straight Canadian Interuniversity Athletic Union championship at Manitoba's Max Bell Centre.

I would like to congratulate Kelly Crerar, Anthony Davis, Simon Trepel, Jeff McMillan, Byron Goodwin, who was named the CIAU's most outstanding athlete of the meet, and Tom Bima, Daryl Fillion, Derek Kroeker, Martin Miller, Mike Laberge, Kevin Sylvester, Jeff Schmidt, Mel McManus, Pete Hargraves, Frank MacLean, Peter Kilbourne, Andre Couture, Nicolas Pauletto; coaches: Bruce Pirnie, Claude Berube, Witek Ziendalski, Ming Pu No, Tico Cornejo, Ron Melnichuk, Keren Smith, George Tanner, John Iwanski, Wayne McMahon, Terry Armstrong and Lome Hilton; managers: Pat Alexander and Trevor Neumann; and athletic therapists: Jeannie Yip, Charlene Hustabault, Laurie Penton and Tony Tetrault.

I know and many members in the Legislature know what it takes to reach the calibre of the people that compete in these competitions. On behalf of everybody here, Mr. Speaker, I would just like to congratulate and join all Manitobans in congratulating these athletes for their outstanding achievements and thank them for making Manitoba the home of champions. Mr. Speaker: I would ask the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek to provide Hansard with a copy of that so we get the correct spelling. Now, the honourable member for Wellington was up. Were you not up? Oh, Radisson, then, I guess. I am sorry.

Radisson, to make a nonpolitical statement. Does she have leave? Leave. [agreed] *

(1430) Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, I just want to join in the congratulations to the university athletes that have performed so

814 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 13, 1995 well over the past weekend--the University of Winnipeg women's basketball team for their third win of a national women's basketball championship for Canada. This university has such a strong history in basketball. They have excellent coaches. They have benefited from excellent athletes that have come, of course, from the variety of wonderful high school athletic programs. The basketball programs across Manitoba at the high school level have produced many, many national champions.

I want to also recognize the University of Manitoba women's basketball team in their second-place finish. This has provided Manitoba an exc1tmg home-grown sports contest throughout the year. We had the 88 streak for winning streak that was broken by the University of Manitoba, and I think that they can be proud of their efforts as well. I also want to echo the compliments to the University of Manitoba team for their strong showing at the CIAU track and field championship. That is a team that I had the honour of being part of in past years, Mr. Speaker.

I want to recognize the managers and the coaches and the various athletes that have worked so hard at the university to represent the province and the University of Manitoba. I wish them continued success. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for St. Vital have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Leave. [agreed] Mrs. Shirley Render (St. Vital): Mr. Speaker, yesterday, the University of Winnipeg Lady Wesmen three-peated as the Canadian Interuniversity Athletic Union women's basketball champions.

This capped an outstanding year for the Lady Wesmen as they were recognized for their success throughout North America. This year's team consists of Pam Flick, Jody Rock, Heather Corby, Mamie Nechwediuk, Sandy Corby, Andrea Hutchins, Sandra Carroll, who was named the CIAU Basketball Player of the Year and the tournament's most valuable player, Nichole Jonker, Natalie McVicar, Lara Asplin, Tracey Peter, Lynette Lafreniere, Anna Weber.

The CIAU Coach of the Year was Tom Kendall; his assistants: Gail Kendall, Craig Kennedy, Carla Lenz; team doctors: Mitch Cosman and Neil Craton; athletic therapist: Ben Trunzo; manager: Jennifer How; and trainer: Keri Knight. I join all Manitobans in thanking these athletes and recognizing their achievements in making Manitoba the home of champions. Thank you. International Women's Day Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Wellington have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to rise today to pay belated but heartfelt recognition to International Women's Day which was held last Wednesday. International Women's Day celebrates the lives and achievements of women throughout Manitoba, Canada and the world. Some women are leaders of government. Some women are members of Legislative Assemblies. Some are leaders in corporations. Some are leaders in small businesses. Some are leaders in rural farming and agricultural and nonurban endeavours. Women are succeeding in all of these areas. Women are succeeding in every area of the world.

For other women, however, success and achievements are measured in the simple act of surviving, of surviving poverty, surviving abuse, surviving lack of opportunities. We are here today and I would hope every day of the year to celebrate women's achievements. We must also pledge ourselves to work towards enabling all women to achieve to

March 13, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 815 the utmost of their abilities wherever they live. All our lives and the entire world will be the richer for it. Thank you. Canadian Interuniversity Athletic Union Championship Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Niakwa have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. Jack Reimer (Niakwa): Mr. Speaker, earlier this month the University of Manitoba men's volleyball team won the Canadian Interuniversity Athletic Union championship in Sudbury for the sixth time. Their coach Garth Pischke is one of the winningest coaches in Canadian sports.

His 81 percent winning percentage is admirable indeed with 814 match wins. The 1995 team's record was 45 and one loss--it must be 1994. The team consists of Michael Oste, Daniel Hunnie, Trevor Dmitruk, Garrett Kot, Ken Krahn, Jules Martens, Erick Smith and Scott Koskie, who was named the CIAU volleyball athlete of the tear. Winning the TSN award and the tournament's most valuable players were Michael Leonard, Stephen Welch, Andrew Zurawsky, Ryan Ratushniak; manager: Bruce Kent; athletic therapists: Mikey Mark and Melissa Davidson; and of course the coach: Garth Pischke.

I congratulate these athletes and thank them for their outstanding achievements and for making this the home of champions. Thank you. ORDERS OF THEDA Y BUDGET DEBATE (Third Day of Debate) Mr. Speaker: On the adjourned debate, the third day of debate, on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) that this House approve in general the budgetary policy of the government and the proposed motion of the honourable Leader of the official opposition and amendment thereto, standing in the name of the honourable member for Burrows. Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr.

Speaker, with leave of the House, I would like to allow the Liberal Leader to speak next and I will speak after him in regular rotation. Mr. Speaker: Is there leave of the House to allow the honourable Leader of the second opposition party to speak now and that the matter would remain standing in the name of the honourable member for Burrows? [agreed] Point of Order Hon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): I have no objection to the member for Burrows allowing the member for St. James to speak at the present time, but following the member for St. James, it is this side of the House's tum to have a speaker.

Then after that if the member for Burrows wishes to speak I would have no objection. *** Mr. Speaker: Is there leave to allow the matter to remain standing in the name of the honourable member for Burrows? Is there leave? [agreed] Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to be back in the House in the new year 1995. We had hoped, as I had indicated at the end oflast year, that we would have been back sooner on in this year, but nevertheless, it is good to be back. We welcome you back, Mr. Speaker.

We welcome the Pages back to their duties here in the House as we commence activities for who knows how long--I suppose only the Premier (Mr. Filmon) knows for sure--before we go into an election.

816 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 13, 1995 I want to start by saying that the eighth budget of this government, in my estimation, represents a highly politicized document and represents in my view a document clearly envisioned and drafted and concocted with a view to the upcoming provincial election, not necessarily the fiscal health of the province or the economic future of our province and including the future of the operations that we fund as a government, most notably health and education systems and the social assistance system as well.

So I want to start with those comments and simply indicate in fairly brief form today that there are two main areas that I have of significant concern about this document. Those are, firstly, that I believe there is an unhealthy and indeed unwise reliance which this government has gotten itself into on the revenues of government-owned, government-sponsored advertising and government-advertised gambling in this province.

That reliance in my view underlies a lot of the economic agenda of this government, and has for some time now, as the single biggest area of revenue growth in the government, and the government is increasingly becoming reliant on it in its financial planning. Mr. Speaker, there are a number of aspects of that that I will illustrate to prove that point, and then I will go through some of the negative consequences of that. Indeed, I believe that Manitobans see this budget in that light.

The second major area that I intend to deal with today in terms of this budget is the whole issue of priorities within the spending of the government. So the lotteries issue is really an issue of revenue generation, and the other area that I want to address is that of spending and the priorities, because today no government in this country has any excess of money. I do not know about other provinces as much as Manitoba, but I certainly know that in Manitoba the public willingness to accept further taxation is nil.

So there simply are not revenue sources that our citizens are prepared to pay for government to get bigger and bigger. I do not think that is a partisan issue today. Increasingly what I see is that in fact it is an issue that we are joined on. Really the issue then becomes, what are the spending priorities, because that becomes more and more and more important as we all understand that there is less and less money available.

Taxpayers' dollars are becoming scarcer, and secondly we also all recognize, but for perhaps the NDP and in particular as evidenced by the NDP in Saskatchewan, any appetite for further increases of taxation burdens on our citizens. Mr. Speaker, there are two general areas that I want to address. One on the revenue generation side and the other, on the other side of the ledger, the spending side. Let me start with the revenue-generation aspect. This government has had, since it came into power, a 400 percent increase in the revenues of the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation.

That corporation has gone from a net profit of $55 million in '87-88 to now well in excess of$200 million; $220 million is the prediction for the coming year. But who knows what the real profits are, because we just learned last fall that for the last three years they have in effect been siphoning off some $30 million, $40 million per year to put into this lotteries slush fund so that they could use it in one day and bam, switch it to the other side of the ledger and presto, pretend that they had a balanced budget.

So we do not actually know what the true revenue situation, what the true profit situation of the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation is because that Lotteries Corporation is not accountable to this House. That is absolutely critical that this Legislature be given the ability to review and know and see what is happening with lotteries in this province, and it has been an exercise in frustration.

March 13, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 817 (Mr. Jack Penner, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) I know that the government likes to talk and pretend that there is accountability to that Lotteries Corporation, but I do not think there is a member of the opposition who would support them in that. The fact is that we have not had the Lotteries Corporation before us in this House for, I believe, almost coming on to two years, and at that time the report they had in front of us was, I believe, the--it might even have been the '92-93 annual report. I think it was. *

(1420) Mr. Acting Speaker, I do not even think we finished passing that report. I think we got a couple of hours into it. We asked some questions. I know that the member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar) I think asked some questions. I was there asking questions. I thought that we were getting along quite well. I thought that generally speaking we were having a good discussion about lotteries and getting some answers. We broke, and as I recall the indication was from the minister, well, we will come back to finish passing that report. Do you know what?

We never came back, and we did not come back to pass the next year's report. The lack of accountability of that corporation is at the root and a significant contributor to the public dissatisfaction and the public concern about gambling. The public also has substantial concerns about the social impact and the real story behind what this is causing in the community, as we now have confirmed by the minister last week that 90 percent--and I suspect it is well in excess of 90 percent--of the people gambling in this province are Manitobans.

So I think the public is very aware that this is not real growth, not real new revenue. This is not about tourism. This is about sucking money out of our own citizens, our own communities from around this province. It has become another form of taxation and at that a very regressive form of taxation, because it bears no heed for ability to pay. In fact, those from whom it takes most are those who are most desperate, most looking for the quick fix and the quick ability to make profits. Do you know what, Mr. Acting Speaker? The truth is that the public does know that nobody who gambles ultimately wins.

The slot machine wins. It is just a question of how much they take from you when, and that is what this government is participating in to an outrageously high level and in fact planning its economic agenda around those issues. So we have indeed reached low in this province under this government as we seek to provide for our children a health and an education system and the things which our citizens have come to expect and rely on from government.

The message is to the children of this province, who are laced through this speech, this budget speech, that frankly to protect their education system and the health care system, mom and dad should be off plugging the slot machine more often. That is the subtext here, that increasingly the government wants to rely on our own citizens plugging video lottery terminals. It has become the video lottery budget, in my estimation, and that is a very worrisome, I think a very negative and a very problematic situation when the government comes to rely on that area of revenue raising for so much. So, Mr.

Acting Speaker, I believe that we need to take a step back. I believe that we need to really know all of the facts about the Lotteries Corporation, what it is doing, who is gambling, how much, where, what the real social impact is, and I think we need to do that relatively quickly. We need that review, and then it needs to be tabled in the House, and we as members of this Legislature need to take cognizance of what the citizens are saying.

I think that they can only make their views known in the context of a full educational experience, because I do not believe that the Lotteries Corporation has been forthcoming or forthright with members of the

818 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 13, 1995 public, with members of this Legislative Assembly in terms of what is really going on. Mr. Acting Speaker, let me just say in that regard there are some interesting other examples. I say, as one opposition member, that the Liquor Control Commission is quite a different organization than the Lotteries Corporation. I have found that corporation--and I was the critic for many years--has been open, has been very open with what they are doing, has been very responsive to any questions from members of the opposition. I know that the member for Interlake (Mr.

ClifEvans) and I had an early meeting out at the Liquor Control Commission a number of years ago. The message was, from the administration, if you have a question, ask, and we will do our best to answer it. They were good to their word every single time. The member for Interlake may have felt the same way. I certainly did. Compare that to this Lotteries Corporation. That corporation has been totally unresponsive and seems to have bent itself to the frustration of members of this Legislature in terms of answering questions, providing details and allowing us to do our job.

If this government does intend to do obviously what it has done, which is plan its economic agenda around lotteries, the least they should be prepared to do is have the fortitude to stand behind it. What is happening? What are they hiding? Surely they should be prepared to say these are the facts, this is our agenda, and we will take this to the people. That would be fair. They are not saying that.

What they are saying is they have consistently wanted to hide behind what was really going on, not be responsive, not answer the public concerns, let alone the concerns of members of this Legislature, and yet still make it the essence, really, the mainstay of their economic agenda. The minister stands up and the Premier (Mr. Filmon) stands up and says, well, it is only 3 or 4 percent of revenue. Well, listen, it has grown 400 percent in these years.

It has been used over these last three years to almost single-handedly prepare a fund which could be switched over, as was done on budget day last week, to allow the balanced budget. It is indeed a critical part of their economic plan. Mr. Acting Speaker, I point out that $145 million that has been built up over these years was built up systematically and intentionally over those last three years for last Thursday, one day.

It is not sustainable without a significant further increase in gambling revenues, because their economic predictions in fact rely on doing more than having to wait three years to build it up to do another balanced budget. They want to do it every year. They want to do it clearly on the gambling revenues. We have called and will continue to call for the release of the five-year plan. If that is not their plan, then the five-year plan will not say it is their plan. What are they hiding? Let us see the five-year plan. There is absolutely no good reason for not releasing that document.

If it had not been passed by cabinet, if it was just a draft, if it was just some random thoughts, fine. It has been to cabinet. It has been passed. It is now public policy, the policy of this government, and it should be released. There is absolutely no reason for continuing to keep that document hidden. That would be, I think, the truest indication of the real intentions of this government. They set up this review--Mr. Desjardins, who I might say is a very fine man, a man that I have an enormous amount of respect for.

But I must say in these circumstances, and I am not sure why--I certainly was not privy to the conversations that the government would have had with him--1 think that he has been drawn into a political situation. Perhaps he was a little bit unaware, but he had some experience. I just think he is being used in this case. I hate to say that, but I really do. I think there is a political agenda here, and I really regret to see that a man

March 13, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 819 of that stature, and a man of that experience, would be drawn into this. I would prefer to think that he may not know completely the agenda of this government that he has been drawn into. *

(1450) As proof of that agenda, look at the fact, there is no commitment to public hearings in that process. You know the government has done all kinds of other reviews and, bang, right there on the press release, up high, public hearings--not this one, conspicuous by its absence. Now, the other indication, very interesting, the same day they released the announcement of that committee, the Third Quarter Report of the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation was released. The press release is crowing about record profits--$220 million--the same day that they released the announcement of the study into it.

There is a lot of inconsistency here, and I think the public knows it. The last point on that committee, which I thought was very interesting, is the fact that the committee that is struck is going to have 14 people on it and is going to do all of this work and produce a report by October, and it happens after close to seven years in power and raising the revenues by 400 percent. The timing, in and of itself, of this announcement makes very clear, I think, certainly to us and I think to the people of this province, what is going on in the Lotteries.

In fact, it is just driven almost entirely--I think the Premier (Mr. Filmon) got up, read a poll, realized he had a problem in the upcoming election and said, hey, we have got to do something to try to paper this over for the short term. In fact, that is I think what has happened. Now, in addition to a full review, and I think an educational process has to be the first part of that, there has to be a guaranteed public hearing process. There has to be, in my estimation, Mr. Acting Speaker, an immediate cessation of advertising by the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation.

I do not accept that it is a proper role of government to sell its own citizens on gambling, and that is indeed what has been happening extensively. In addition to that, I believe that the moratorium has to be extended indefinitely until such time as at least that review is completed and is tabled in the Legislature. Critical to this is that the government leave open to the committee at least the option of recommending back that gambling opportunities should be reduced. That option must be left open to this committee if indeed it is to be a true open committee.

In fact, on the economic assumptions and predictions of this government, there is no such option; it is clear that this is paperwork to get them through the election, but their economic agenda is clearly firmly planted in increasing gambling amongst Manitobans, so that option has to be left open.

The last thing I would say is that there should be, I believe, a freeing up from people who have contracts currently, where they have VL Ts, to allow them to break those contracts essentially and hand in their VL Ts, because there are a lot of organizations, hotels and some out there that we have heard from that are saying in fact that they do not want these in there. Some of them are locked into contracts and are looking for ways to simply rescind those contracts, Mr. Acting Speaker, and I think that we should free up that opportunity for them to do that. (Mr.

Jack Reimer, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) An Honourable Member: I think you hit a nerve, Paul. Mr. Edwards: Well, a nerve has been hit. The Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Orchard) has had his swan song. He took about 20 minutes of

820 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 13, 1995 it to talk about the Free Press. He can get up again before we are over here and he can continue that diatribe. Mr. Acting Speaker, I could go on longer on the issue of increasing reliance on lotteries revenues. I want to at this point turn to the issue of the priorities of this government as evidenced in this budget.

I said at the outset of my comments that the government must be accountable for the priorities more today probably than ever in the history of our province or our country, because it is the spending priorities which will reflect the government's priorities and how they see the role of government in these increasingly difficult fiscal times, as well as increasingly difficult times for our citizens as they try to prepare to meet the challenges as they enter the 21st Century. So, Mr. Acting Speaker, I want to just cite a few of those spending priorities.

Firstly, I note in the budget Estimates at page 43, Education and Training, that Youth Programs have received a substantial cut despite salary increases. So Youth Programs are down. Indeed, it is only up on that line sub(

g) of page 43 because in fact the federal contribution is up by $3 .I million to those programs. So indeed the provincial pullback on Youth Programs has indeed been substantial. The Making Welfare Work program appears to show that indeed there is that significant increase at the federal level, but at the provincial level there is no such corresponding increase and, in fact, there is a decrease. Now, Mr. Acting Speaker, in addition to Youth Program cuts, we see at page 81 of the budget under the Home Care provisions that the Home Care budget has, in fact, been reduced.

In fact, they are very close to being the same. They have been reduced very, very marginally. The truth is that if we are moving to increasingly community-based services as indeed the former Minister of Health and current Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) say they are, if we are moving to that, there is no corresponding increase even to deal with the inflationary increases, and in fact there is a very slight, very marginal decrease. That tells me that there is a spending priority which is not consistent with the words of this government towards community based health policy.

In addition, we see that there is a decrease in funds available to Mental Health Services, again, not consistent with the stated commitment of this government. As well, we see at page 84 that the Centre for Health Policy and Evaluation, a critical element of determining how we are going to ensure that we maximize health care dollars, that their budget has indeed been reduced as well, obviously, an important tool in monitoring reform as well as giving advice on future reforms. Mr.

Acting Speaker, we also see that there is a significant decrease in the Environmental Operations, in particular, the enforcement and education area We see at page 53 of the budget that there has been, in fact, a decrease in Environmental Operations, and that, even though we can afford and we have put in some $22.9 million over the years to the Hazardous Waste Corporation, the enforcement side of that which was always to be done consistently with the Hazardous Waste Management Corporation has not kept up and has seen reductions, in particular, a reduction in this budget. *

(1500) On page 42 of the budget we see a decrease in the ACCESS program. We see a decrease at page 3 9 of the budget in the K -12 aspects of the educational system. What we see consistently, Mr. Acting Speaker, is reductions in all of the areas that the government says it is most interested in pursuing and, in particular, in the health and education sectors. Compare that to the line in the budget at page--[interjection] Well, no, the Minister of Education (Mr. Manness) says more money, better services. I started this discussion by saying that this is about spending priorities. I

March 13, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 821 have talked about where some of the cuts are. I have gone through what I perceive them to be. I have cited the pages and I have cited the lines, and the Minister of Education can review in his own budget document. I have cited where the cuts are and how I think they are inconsistent. Now I am turning to page 98 of the budget where under the Industry, Trade and Tourism grants and loans to business, we see a 50 percent increase in those grants and loans. That is a difference in priorities between this party, the Liberal Party, and the Conservative Party.

They would prefer to see grants and loans to businesses not just maintained, no, seriously enhanced. That is a difference in priorities. They can take that to the people. They can take that through the election and fair enough, but that is a question they are going to have to answer, how they spend the limited dollars they have. In the name of fiscal restraint they see fit to cut nurses and cut health care, cut teachers, cut education, cut all of those services, and they give a 50 percent increase in grants and loans to businesses. That is a question of priorities, Mr.

Acting Speaker, and that speaks volumes about what this government is about. This government has consistently in its budget documents, and evidenced here again today, protected privilege. They seem to see that as one of their primary goals in being government, to protect privilege and to participate in largesse to the business community. This is not about saying someone is antibusiness. Mr. Acting Speaker, the business community itself consistently tells us they do not want further monies for their own operations. They want government to do what government has to do and do it well. That is what they tell us.

They also tell us they want their own taxes kept down, which seems reasonable. What they do not tell us is that they want a 50 percent increase in grants and loans to them. That is not what they say. It is not a question of being antibusiness. It is a question of understanding what are the true priorities of government. I note that there was in fact a 60 percent decrease in monies available to the business sector under the federal budget. This represents a 50 percent increase at the provincial level, and I think that is the wrong direction.

I simply indicate that it evidences to me, as I think it evidences to the public, what their priority is about. I do not say that they do not have the right to strike those priorities. They do. They are the government, but those are their priorities. They will answer for their priorities in this coming election. That is them and I understand that, and big business appears to be their priority. It is not ours.

We see government's role as running a health care system, an education system and we as government can, with the business community, best provide it, through a good training and education system, through making it easy to deal with government, keeping taxes down, providing things that we can, like the hydro rates. We have had lots of discussions with Hydro that can be and has been an economic jewel in the province. We all agree on that, Mr. Acting Speaker. Those are the things that we as government can do.

What I do not see as progressive, what I do not see as in keeping with an appropriate political philosophy as we head into this preparatory period for the 21st Century is a substantial increase in the direct grants and loans to businesses. Of course, to make matters worse, this government continues to be absolutely obsessed with finding some outside saviour in Manitoba who is going to come in and save us all, maybe from Boston or Montreal or something.

Ifthey gave half the attention to the employers here in Manitoba that they seem to give to anybody who shows a passing interest in this province from outside of it, I think we would be a lot better off.

822 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March I3, I995 Mr. Acting Speaker, those are priority issues that this government is going to have to address and deal with. The Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Downey) has commented from his seat some numbers. I did not catch them, but I am sure that he will cite them to me again at some point, on the employment growth. But let me just cite the labour statistics from just Friday of last week when the statistics came out from the Manitoba Bureau of Statistics and Statistics Canada about employment.

What occurred to me--l ran some numbers in light of these new statistics, which come out monthly. In the period between September '90 and February '95, what we saw going through that recessionary period was that the country of Canada went through a decrease of about I 70,000 jobs in that period of time. Of course that goes from September '90, when this government became a majority government. Our percentage of that should have been approximately 5,000 that we should have gone down in Manitoba had we been consistent with the national average decrease; in fact, it was I2,000. So, Mr.

Acting Speaker, in that period of time, September '90 to February I 995, Manitoba has lost some 7,000 jobs in addition to the ones that we should have lost keeping up to the national average. We have in fact gone through the recession worse, and we are coming out basically last. Whatever their economic agenda that the minister is talking about, it has not worked. They say consistently, well, we have been through a worldwide recession. Right. So why did we go into it deeper? Why are we coming up at the tail end?

We are somehow missing 5,000 jobs that we would have had we even been keeping up to the national average. Let us just take the last year, February '94 to February '95, the period in which we embarked on a recovery in this country. Canada, in that period, according to the February statistics, is up in that year 326,000 jobs. Our percentage of that should bring us in at approximately I3,000 jobs; we are up I I,OOO. Somewhere there are 2,000 jobs that we should have had we even been keeping up with the national average.

So what is clear is that Manitoba, far from leading any recovery, is in fact trailing significantly even the national average. One has to ask the question, not as the government suggests, what the government is doing right. What are they doing wrong that we are not even keeping up with the national average? Why are we not even keeping in the midrange of what we should be doing? In fact, what we see very clearly is that whatever economic plan the government has, and really there is not one, but whatever they think they have sure is not working.

Those are the issues which the government is going to have to deal with because, clearly, we all agree, at least we in the government do, that a job is the best social program and the best economic program and represents really the issue from which all others flow. (Mr. Jack Penner, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) We need our citizens to work.

We need them to have the ability to spend money, to have the ability to have dignity and confidence in their lives, thereby not having to rely on the other social services including health services as much as they have been, because we know that the single linking factor across those social services, including health, in increase in use is indeed unemployment. It is a significant social debilitator in our society, and so we do need to make jobs, Mr. Acting Speaker. The working with the employer community to maximize the potential for job growth--that is our job. The government's job is not to hire everybody.

The government's job is to set the stage, to ensure that what is there is indeed maximized. So while I may not find disagreement from the government side on that philosophical principle,

March 13, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 823 the way it is worked out, as evidenced by this budget, is, in fact, an issue of disagreement. Now, we know that across this province there are many important industries. We know that there are industries developing which we in government may not be able to predict, probably cannot. The economy evolves in ways that we in this House are not expected to and really cannot predict. Our job is simply to respond and create an environment, set the stage where whatever is going to happen in the free market happens so that we can create as many jobs as potential. Mr.

Acting Speaker, one particular area where I think we need to be highly sensitive to that is, as we seek to find new ways, that of having a sustainable agricultural economy. I know full well that there are many members across the way who are, in fact, engaged full time in the farming profession, and I recognize that, and let me say as one of many in this House I certainly also recognize the fact that I do not farm for a living and therefore I do not perhaps have any of the practical, as much of the practical, knowledge they have. I recognize that.

What I do say is that agriculture is everybody's business in this province, and it is an important mainstay of our economy. Whatever our disagreements on how we can maximize it, we are all committed to maximizing what the agricultural economy can produce in Manitoba. So that is an important starting point. *

(1510) Let me also say, Mr. Acting Speaker, that as regards the era we are entering now I do not think the former Minister of Agriculture, the current Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns) or any member opposite would disagree that we are entering a critical period as we go through these next few years and head into the 21st Century in our agricultural economy. How we manage that, how we respond will have a lot to do with whether or not a rural way of life cannot just survive but thrive in the coming years.

We need to be very, very sensitive to what is happening in outside markets and around the world and in our own province if we are going to successfully work with those who work in the agricultural sector towards a sustainable, growing, thriving agricultural economy. Mr.

Acting Speaker, I recall many speeches from members opposite about the need to move into food processing, value-added production, to move into ways to not just be the producers of primary product for export markets, which is of course a large part of what the agricultural community does, but we also need to focus on further ways to diversify the agricultural economy and to in fact continue to enhance the processing end of it, because as I have heard many members opposite say far more eloquently than I, we need to keep jobs as much as possible here in Manitoba with those.

I do not in any way suggest that is not the way to go. We obviously want to have concern, continuing concern about primary product, about export markets, but move towards diversification, move towards, as the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns) says, livestock, further growth in livestock, whether that be beef cattle, whether that be hogs, whether that be other livestock. I happened to notice on the way driving down to Carman the other day, I think there was a display on emus.

There are some who suggest- there are some ostriches, obviously these are very minor parts of whatever is going on in the livestock sector, but I think that we need to grow and develop whatever is out there. Whatever is out there and can be produced and can make money for our citizens, we need to be supportive. I know that there has been suggestion that has come to the Minister of Agriculture, some are saying game farming they want to move into, and I know that is controversial but, Mr.

Acting Speaker, the further diversification of the agricultural community is clearly in the interests of all Manitobans, and so we must be prepared to

824 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 13, 1995 move in those directions, and the other key aspect of the agricultural sector that I see in addition to diversification is the increasing flexibility within the agricultural community to respond to market forces. We had many, many years where we in this House all agreed and all said, if we could only get out of the subsidy wars that we are involved in, because our Treasury cannot keep up with the U.S. ERP program, the subsidy program, our Treasury cannot keep up with the European Economic Community subsidies.

We said that, the former Minister of Agriculture, the member for Springfield, used to say that at length. I agreed. We now have a GATT agreement in place and we are now looking for our farmers to be able to, as I think they can, in fact I know they can compete and win and grow and thrive in the coming agricultural sector. I do not fear the competition which will come from the rest of the world as long as it is that level playing field. So, Mr.

Acting Speaker, I say that in fact we are entering an era in agriculture that could well be liberating in terms of our ability to compete with the rest of the world if we can successfully move through the transitional program towards a more diversified and a more flexible agricultural economy and move successfully into value-added food production, into livestock, using feed grains that have been artificially kept high in price because ofthe Crow rate.

If in fact we can move through that transitional period successfully, we will have a sustainable agricultural economy, not just one that is going to get us maybe through to the next four years, but one that is going to get us through the next 40 and further. That is what we are after in the agricultural economy, not short-term fixes, but long-term plans that are sustainable, not through the term of any one of us or any government but through the lifetimes of our citizens and their children. That is what we are after and, Mr.

Acting Speaker, that is an area that is going to require, no matter who is the government after this election, a high level of co-operation between governments. I know there are many partisan differences. I know that we are going to have elections come between us at the federal and provincial level, and these things will divert our attention from the individual simply trying to make a living on the farm. But the truth is that this is an area of shared jurisdiction, that we simply must be prepared, in my estimation, to work through and work together into the new environment of fair trade across the world markets.

I do not think that is one that any Manitoba farmer is afraid to face, fair trade worldwide. I think what they are saying is let us get this transitional program underway. Let us make sure that we maximize it. We have already come a long way in Manitoba towards diversification of our agricultural economy. We are in many respects further ahead than the other two western provinces in that. We are off to a good start. We need to continue that, we need to enhance that, but I do not fear the future of fair trade in the Manitoba agricultural sector. Mr.

Acting Speaker, I want to touch briefly on the issue of the evolving relationship with our aboriginal peoples, including First Nations and Metis and, indeed, Inuit. We are, I think again, and perhaps every politician says I serve at a critical juncture. Having said that, as a caveat to this, I say in respect certainly of a number of things I have talked about today, I think we do serve at a critical juncture. I think we all do in this House and probably no more so than our relationship with our aboriginal peoples.

What I see from this government pretty consistently is an approach that says we are not really a part of this, we do not have responsibility and, therefore, we are not prepared to be at the table as partners. That has been, in particular a message with the First Nations--I will acknowledge that--but as well other aboriginal peoples. In particular with the First Nations individuals, we see from this

March 13, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 825 government a basic reticence to take a full partnership role in moving to a new future. We are at a point where Manitoba has been chosen as the lead province in Canada in a very, very difficult, very critical process which will, I think, tell the tale for the next generation. I think that we as a province do have a role at the table ensuring that this works for the benefit of us all, not just our First Nations peoples, but all of us, because we have to chart a new course with these people.

We can sit here and say, as the Premier has when confronted with social welfare statistics, social indicators, the common line from members opposite, well, the First Nations, the aboriginal community, they skew those numbers. The truth is, the submessage there is that they are not really part of this; they are not Manitobans. That seems to be the subtext, and we have to reject that. We owe the same commitment to all of our citizens, aboriginal or nonaboriginal, north or south, east or west, urban or rural. We owe the same commitment.

Whether it is Highway 391 going north of Thompson, which I agree has been shamelessly neglected by this government consistently. I can tell you, I have driven that road. I drove that road a month ago, and that road would have been fixed a decade ago had it been, I think, in southern Manitoba, and I say that here. That road--there is no option. That is the only road, and for some months of the year you cannot send an ambulance down that road without a tow truck. I can see why, having been on that road. *

(1520) I simply say that we owe the same commitment corner to corner, and we need to take the process that is now started in Manitoba with our aboriginal peoples extremely seriously, and I think Manitobans and the Manitoba government should be at the table as partners. We have health care responsibility, education responsibilities, social services. We are, under the Constitution, responsible for natural resources, and we own Crown land, so certainly the federal government through its treaty obligations does have special obligations.

Nobody is seeking to in any way interfere with the primary relationship between First Nations people and the federal government, but to suggest that the provincial government does not have a role at the table as a partner in a process, I think, is to let down the community that are also Manitobans and also pay Manitoba taxes. Mr. Acting Speaker, I simply say that is an attitudinal change which I think we need to see in the provincial government.

I also want to make special note, and I want to say to the government that I was pleased with the statement from the government in the wake of the Dixon report on Churchill. I saw that report and read that report as very positive about the future for that rail line and for that port. I think that it charted a course that can work. I know that there were many, many reports before that and that everybody was saying, well, this is the 19th report or something like that, but that committee was a little bit different. It had people at the table unlike a lot of the others.

The railroad companies, they brought in Saskatchewan and the federal government, they brought in some banks, they brought in the grain companies, they brought in all of the players who had been functioning in isolation oftentimes against each other on this issue. I think it was an important juncture for that port and that railway. And what they said was, we need to continue in the short term; obviously, exporting grain out of that port is going to be the short-term way to keep it open.

We have to work to ensure that it does stay open, but the medium- and long-term plan must be, obviously, to diversify the economic base to support that railway and that port. So that is an important process to be a full partner and I was pleased.

826 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 13, 1995 Let me say to the government, I was pleased to see that there was a prompt, positive response to that in the immediate wake of the GrahamDixon report. (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) Mr. Speaker, the other thing that, while speaking about some northern issues, I want to say and I want to congratulate the three organizations in 'the North, the NACC, the Northern Association of Community Councils; MKO, and the Urban Industrial communities because for the first time I think I see them coming together.

I see them coming together in the North in a way that I do not think we have seen for a long time. They are coming together to set priorities and to not compete against each other but to focus on things they cannot agree on, whether it is transportation issues like Via railways, like certain roads or whether it is economic development issues, whether it is natural resource issues, forest issues, Hydro issues that are of particular impact to them.

The northern groupings of those three organizations: MKO, NACC and the Urban Industrial communities coming together is an extremely positive thing no matter who is the government in this province after the next election. That must be promoted and enhanced for northern Manitoba, because we need those communities to come together, to work with whomever the provincial government is to ensure that the northern economy, the northern communities remain viable and indeed grow and continue to grow in the role and history of our province.

It is, I think, important to recognize that coming together as a critical part of what they have done to work better with government, whoever the government is, and we want to be supportive of that process, as I am sure the other parties do as well. Mr. Speaker, let me say that this budget represents to me, as I started, a document clearly crafted for the coming election and not crafted for what I think is the prudent and responsible and creative and innovative management of our province in the coming years.

I have articulated just two areas, two major areas albeit, but two areas where I divide with the government: on the role of lotteries and how I see lotteries playing a role in provincial affairs, and secondly, on the spending priority issue. So both on the revenue side and on the spending side we have some real philosophical and, in fact, very practical divergences with this government. They have put forward a document which they are going to be taking into this election, obviously, Mr. Speaker, as is their right as the government to do.

During that election we will continue to focus on what we believe are different directions to go. Frankly, let me say-- An Honourable Member: What is your direction? Mr. Edwards: Well, I invite the minister to read the comments. He obviously has not been listening. Mr. Speaker, it is the overall goal that I think he shared, and I listened closely to the words of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson). We are not at odds on what we want to do. We want to provide for our citizens the services. We want to ensure that our children have the opportunity to stay and pursue careers here. That does not divide us.

But the way we are going to do it does divide us, and the priorities that we have chosen do divide us. I have talked about some of those today, and we will continue to discuss these throughout the campaign. Let me also before I end, Mr. Speaker, talk about the proposal for balanced-budget legislation, because that was obviously a very critical part of the budget document, the proposal for a balanced-budget legislation. That was a proposal put forward in August of 1993 by our party; it was for a form of balanced-budget legislation.

We said at the time that there were probably many aspects to this and directions one

March 13, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 827 could take, and I cited at the time the example of the New Brunswick model as one example. I do not say that is the example that should be copied word for word for Manitoba. What I do say is that it is certainly one to consider. Now, let me say, Mr. Speaker, I am open to reviewing in detail this document from this government. They have come up with their version of what they think will work for Manitoba in this legislation, and so we are going to review it carefully, and I am going to look forward to public presentations on this bill.

I do not close the door on that legislation because I have spoken in favour, in principle, of balanced budget legislation. It is not going to cure the problems that we face in and of itself. It does not balance the budget. What it is is a useful political standard, I think. I think it can be that. I think it can evidence to the people who are cynical about all of us in this House and politics generally, I think it can evidence a written commitment that we pass into law, that we see this as both fiscally and socially necessary and responsible to balance the budget.

So, in principle, and I said this the day of the budget in the hallway, and I say it here again, that in principle I think this can be a useful political and a useful public tool for legislators of any party. So I say that I will look closely at it. I will review it. Our caucus members will listen to the public, and we will perhaps propose amendments. Perhaps we will try to work with the government on some changes, but we will not, as a knee-jerk response, say no to this legislation.

What I do point out is that some of the provisions of that agreement are very clearly designed for maximum public relations effect in this immediate period as we head into an election and not necessarily perhaps completely consistent with past actions. I am essentially saying that I am going to look past the fact that a government suddenly decides in its eighth year that balancing a budget is a good idea, having not done it in the prior seven. I am prepared to say that in and of itself does not write off this legislation for me.

I am prepared to look past that hypocrisy for the time being and apparent clear contradiction. I am also prepared to look past the fact that they call for a 20 percent reduction in ministerial salaries for every deficit year but still collect I 00 percent of their salaries after seven years of deficits. I am prepared to look past that. I gather they have not got a retroactive clause in there. I do not see it, but I do not think they are keen to pay back based on their seven-year record. But nevertheless I am going to look at this with an open mind.

It is a clearly political partisan document for the short period of time that this government has come up with, the timing evidences that, but the fact is that we are going to study this, listen to the debates, listen to the people, and we will keep our minds open because we start with the understanding and the belief that balanced-budget legislation in principle can be a positive thing, and so that is the approach we will take. [interjection] *

(1530) I do not think that is sitting on the fence, for the honourable member. I actually think that is a fairly clear indication that a balanced-budget legislation in principle is a good thing, and by the way, it is hardly sitting on the fence because there is a large body of opinion out there that believes that this has absolutely no value. I do not say that. I do not say that, so I am not sitting on the fence. Mr. Speaker, this province, this government, in our estimation, has not met its potential under this government.

What is there, what has been there has not been maximized, has not been, I think, brought to fruition for the people of this province as it could and should have been. That is going to be the subject, what we talk about in these coming weeks in this election, but I say it here today that this budget represents, in my view, a document crafted for a very short-term political need, and in many significant areas where spending priorities are evidenced and in the increasing and almost exclusive reliance on

828 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 13, I 995 lotteries funds to balance this budget this year, it represents a very real attempt at balancing the budget in a way that is just not credible and is not sustainable and is not in the best interests of our citizens. They need a better fiscal plan than plugging VL Ts, and that is at the root of this fiscal plan. Mr. Speaker, that is going to be the subject of debate in these coming months, perhaps weeks. As a result of all of the aforesaid, Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Crescentwood (Ms. Gray), THAT the amendment be amended by adding thereto the following words: And further regrets that: (

a) this government has failed to meet its own health reform agenda by decreasing home care funding, healthy communities development and other community health programs resulting in fewer community health services for Manitobans; and (

b) this government has failed to give hope to Manitoba young people who want to improve or acquire new skills by cutting ACCESS and youth programs; and (

c) this government's poor economic performance will continue as a result of their steadily increasing reliance on revenues from video lottery terminals rather than focusing on getting Manitobans back to work; and (

d) this government has failed to recognize the priorities of Manitobans by cutting spending to health, education and social services while at the same time increasing grants and loans to businesses by 50 percent. Motion presented. Bon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): It is indeed a pleasure for me to rise in support of the eighth budget of this government, the eighth budget in which there has been no increase in major taxes for Manitobans, no increase in personal income tax, provincial sales tax or the payroll tax.

That record does not go unnoticed by the constituents of River East as I go door to door knocking. They are aware of our government's commitment and are proud that they have had a representative in the Legislature as part of a government that has made that commitment to the constituents of River East and, indeed, to all Manitobans. Mr. Speaker, this is a record that cannot be matched by any other government in North America. In addition, for the first time in 20 years, Manitobans have been presented with a balanced budget. If that is not enough, the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Stefanson) is this year projecting a $48-million surplus. Let me discuss for a minute what that means, and what criticism will be laid on this government by members of the opposition. In fact, they have already criticized our projections in this budget as being unrealistic. However, they are very silent on the deficit projections of the previous year. In the last budget that our Minister of Finance brought into this Legislature, the deficit was projected at being approximately $278 million. In fact, the deficit came in at $2 I 8 million, fully $60 million less than what was predicted. My point, Mr.

Speaker, is that not only can we achieve our target of a $48-million surplus, but we may indeed surpass it. It would contrast the performance with the dismal record of the New Democratic Party when they were in government from I 98 I to I 988. In spite of a booming Canadian economy, at the time they, the NDP, with their tax-tax and spend-spend philosophy, increased the debt and burdened our children with a debt and interest payments that we are only now getting under control. What is all the more remarkable about the performance of the government that I am proud

March 13, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 829 to be a part of is that, as a result of controlling spending over the last several years, in spite of a worldwide recession, it has set the path for the balanced budget that we see here today. It is the essence of responsible government to make a plan, to stick to that plan, and to implement that plan, even though that plan may entail difficult and courageous choices. Our government has not been afraid to do what is right and Manitobans are reaping the rewards. *

(1540) I would like to contrast this, Mr. Speaker, to another famous plan, the red book that was so cunningly marketed by our current federal Liberal government during the 1993 election. Of course, immediately upon taking office, the red book, as their plan was known, was thrown into the recycling bin to be either composted or recycled into another plan that will be ready for the compost heap as soon as it is printed. For example, let us talk about the GST. Almost the entire Liberal campaign centred around getting rid of the GST, over and over again.

We were treated to the spectacle of federal Liberal candidates who soon became cabinet ministers solemnly vowing to get rid of the hated GST, and after 18 months in office, guess what? Canadians are still paying the GST, only now in addition to the GST we have the CST, and of course I am speaking about the Canadian social transfer, the new system of block funding for support of Canada's social programs. But before I deal with those issues, Mr. Speaker, issues that are very near and dear to my heart, I think a few remarks about the provincial Liberals are in order.

I must confess at the outset, in one way I do grudgingly respect and admire their Leader, no matter what the federal government does to Manitoba in the way of unfair job cuts such as moving Air Command from Winnipeg to Ottawa. Where is Senator Sharon when you need her? I just want to quote from a Winnipeg Sun

article on March 5, 1995, after the federal budget when Sharon Carstairs, Senator Sharon, says that the cuts to Air Command will be devastating to Winnipeg. That is what the now-Leader of the Liberal Party calls a fair budget for Manitobans. I question his commitment, and if we had Sharon Carstairs back in this Legislature I believe she may have stood up for Manitobans, as opposed to the present Leader of the Liberal Party in Manitoba, and come onside with our government in our criticism of the federal budget and the unfairness of those cuts to Manitobans.

As I was saying earlier, even with the elimination of the farm support programs, the cuts to Air Command in our province, the provincial Liberals and their Leaders stand up and applaud the federal Liberals. Such slavish devotion to their federal cousins demonstrates a certain kind of loyalty but does absolutely nothing to help Manitobans. The government of which I am proud to be a part of will not idly sit by and let the federal government do what it wishes to Manitoba. We have a track record, Mr. Speaker, of defending Manitobans' interests in Ottawa no matter who is in government and will continue to do so.

Under the leadership of our Premier, Manitoba has co-operated with the federal government on important cost-shared and co operative programs, but our Premier and my colleagues will continue to fight for Manitobans. It is especially gratifying for me as Minister of Family Services to support the budget. By improving the prospects for prosperity in Manitoba, the balanced budget and paying down of the debt will ultimately be the best social program that could have been devised for Manitobans.

As our employment picture brightens and our tax burden falls, there will be fewer and fewer people dependent on social programs.

830 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 13, 1995 A wise person once said that the best social program is a job, and I finnly subscribe to that view. When I became Minister of Family Services, and I am sure many of you have heard me say this before, I received more condolences than congratulations. I must admit that the challenges faced by any Minister of Family Services, regardless of political stripe, can be daunting, but I want to say that I have considered the last 18 months very exciting and very challenging.

In fact, I believe there is an opportunity to continue to work to make a difference and improve the plight of those that are in need in our province. The Department of Family Services provides income support, child care, counselling, mediation, child welfare and vocational rehabilitation services to some of Manitoba's most vulnerable citizens. Early in this portfolio, I soon realized that there will never be enough money to solve every problem for every person. Thus, program activities must be prioritized and taxpayer's dollars spent wisely. I am proud to say, Mr.

Speaker, that my government, our government has been sensitive to the needs of vulnerable Manitobans and every available dollar is out there working for Manitoba's neediest citizens. In the budget that was just presented by our Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson), Family Services received a 1.1 percent increase over the previous year. Not only that, since this government took office, funding to the Department of Family Services has increased by 59.8 percent.

Health, Education and Family Services are the priority of our government, and in the current fiscal year, over 60 percent of expenditures have been devoted to these three departments. I know, Mr. Speaker, that the opposition tries to portray every spending decision by this government as a cut, but the facts do not bear this out. It is understandable for them to be dismayed at the excellent perfonnance of our government, but no matter how much they distort their arguments, spending in those three priority areas continues to increase.

As a wise person once said, you are entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts. Just as an aside, I would note that Manitoba devotes a higher percentage of its budget to health care than any other province across the country. (Mr. Jack Reimer, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) I listened just a few moments ago to the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mr. Edwards) talking about cuts in community services for health care. Mr.

Acting Speaker, I know that the residents of the northeast quadrant of the city of Winnipeg--that includes my constituency of River East, Rossmere, the constituency of Concordia, Radisson and Elmwood--have seen major increases in the community services that are being provided. We have a record of which I am very proud, over the last two years, of an increase of 280 new personal care home beds right in the northeast quadrant of the city of Winnipeg. That means to me more community-based service, creation of more jobs in our community to look after those people that are in need in our health care system. *

(1550) Mr. Acting Speaker, that to me does not translate into cuts. That translates into sensitivity in looking at the needs of the people in our community and ensuring that they are able to be looked after in their community closer to their homes and to their families. That argument of cuts does not wash in our area. Our community knows that there has been increased support, increased community-based support, no matter what present short-lived legacy the

March 13, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 831 member for Rossmere (Mr. Schellenberg) presently sitting in the House wants to believe or the message he wants to give to his constituents. They know that there is more community-based service in our community. Mr. Acting Speaker, I am pleased, ifl can get back to what is happening in the Department of Family Services, to look at some of the Making Welfare Work initiatives that have been implemented or introduced in the last year to create less of a dependency on government programming and providing employment opportunities for social assistance recipients.

Some of the Making Welfare Work projects do include Taking Charge, which is a five-year pilot project that is designed to provide services to increase employment for 4,000 sole-support parents receiving social assistance. The board for Taking Charge will be up and running shortly. Sole-support parents on welfare represent 46.9 percent of our welfare cases. It is a known fact that a large percentage of children raised on welfare end up continuing the welfare cycle. We must stop the cycle of dependence. Taking Charge will provide a store-front approach to co ordinating the various g

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-6-17a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 6th hansardpdf 17a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	3c3e4a86d8dd3e2f821239c8cab39234ecd3adb3

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