Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 40 (35th Legislature, 1st Session)

35-1-40

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

3-8048 First Session • Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDING S (HANSARD) 39 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Denls C. Rocan Speaker Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affi liation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Stave BAR RETT, Becky CARR, James CARST AIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Gulzar CHOM IAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward, Hon. CUMM INGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard , Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARM E, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim , Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon . FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HAR PER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAUR ENDEAU, Ma rcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTI NDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOS H, Linda MITCHELSON , Bonnie , Hon. NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. ORCHARD , Donald , Hon. PENNER, Ja ck, Hon. PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK , Darr en, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shir ley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON , Eric STORIE, Jerr y SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemar y WASYL YCIA-L EIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Os borne Thompson Wellington Crescentwood River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Portage la Prairie Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-R ussell Selkirk Concordia Arthu r- Vi rden Stei nbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood lnte rlake Brandon East Tu xedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Ru pertsland Gimli Point Dougla s lnkster The Pas St. Norbert Elm wood Morris Burrows Stur geon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Glad stone Tu rtle Moun tain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garr y St.

Johns Swan River PARTY Liberal NDP NDP Liberal Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC NDP PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, December 6,1990 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Hon. Bonnle Mltchelson (Minis ter responsible for the Status of Women) : Mr. Speaker, I have a min isteri al state ment and I have copies for the House. Mr. Spea ker, one year ago today 14 women were murdered in Montreal in

an act of violence that has shaken all of Cana da. Ther e were some who wanted to dismiss this act as the act of a ma dman, a random happening, that while it was a tragedy should not be interpreted as anyth ing other than the act of one man. Then the discussion started.

The statistics, while they had always been there , took on new significanc e, started to be listened to and exposed in the media, the statistics that say 10 0 women are mur dered every year in Canada by their partne rs, statistics tha t say one in every six women experience domestic violence, statistics that say one in four women experie nce some form of personal violence, half before they are 17 , statistics that have us all saying, not in Canada, not in Man itoba, not on my street, but we are coming to realize that it is on our street, in our province and in our country.

The new aware ness and sensitivity to the issues of violence towards women has made what used to be a joking matter deadly serious. In Mani toba, as a Governmen t, we had already begun the long struggle to reverse the violence towards women that is so evident, but we know that this is a struggle that mu st take place in society itself. I know that every Member in this House shares my horror, disma y and sorrow when we hear the statistics, when we see the newspaper stories. I know that all our lives have been touched.

I believe that our sensitivity has been heightened since those tragic events of December 6, one year ago. lt is a terrible lega cy for 14 young women's lives, but we are all beginning. Today I was present for the dedication of the northwest corner of Mem orial Boulevard as a site for a future place of remembr ance for the women of Man itoba who have died by domestic violence. lt was a moving moment when the site was chosen last spring.

Fourteen trees lined the boulevard tha t is to be a quiet place of contem plation. lt seemed to be a symbol that this will be a safe place for women, for us all, when we need qui et tim es to reflect. On this site it is planned that a mound of earth with a gran ite wall arising out of it will be erected. This is a mem orial to Man itoba women, but it symbolizes that any time a woman is mur dered anywhere it affects us all . One year ago today, 14 women may have been mur dered in Montreal, but the violence that must be stopped is here every day.

Plea se rise and join me in a minu te's silence as we remem ber the sisters, the daug hters, the friends, the neighb ours and the mothers who have been the victi ms of violence. (A moment of silence was observed) Ms.

Becky Barrett (Wel lington): First I would like to comm end the Governmen t on their fast action on the initiative that the women of Man itoba brought forward after Decemb er 6 last year and their quick response in the Decemb er 6 memorial that we partici pated in this morning. * (1 335) I would especially like to commend, as did the current Min ister, the former Min ister responsible for the Status of Women, Gerrie Hammond, for her work in this initiati ve. I know I speak on behalf of all of the wom en in Mani toba who are greatly appreciative of the work that has been done in this regard.

I would also like to thank the Min ister for, in her statement, sharing some of the statistics and putting on the record some of the statistics of domestic violence in our society today. One year ago today, 14 young women lost their lives at the Ecole polytechnique in Montr eal. They were not the victims of a natu ral catastr ophe,

an act of God or simply of the deranged act of a single man. As the Globe and Mail states today in its lead editorial, crazed as he ma y well have been, the killer

2600 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITO BA December 6, 1990 who carefully separated males from fem ales before the shooting began, absorbed his attitudes from the society around him . Collective ly, unconsciously and sometimes overtly, we have provided him with all the context, albei t wildly distorted, that he needed. Today we also mourn and remember the 13 Man itoba women murdered this year as a result of domestic violence. I would like to read their names into the record if I may.

Carole Watson, Teresa Lori Mu rdock, Stella Jaskiewi cz, Gloria Hart, Shirle y Ruth Andronowich, Brig itte Grenier, lsabella King, Monique Newman , Joyce Rae, Merle Ruby Owen, Martha Trout, Iris Muzylouski, Desiree Watson. I call on everyone her e today to dedi cate themse lves to an un derstanding that these acts of violence agains t women, whether they be against one woman or 14, are a violation of fundam ental human rights and the law, and that these issues must be addressed by all of us.

The only way we will ensure tha t women of all ages and back grou nds -our mo the rs, our daughter s, our sisters-can live their full lives free of fear, free of violence, and free to be whatever they choose is to work together. We must work here in the Legislature, in our workplaces and in our schools to change basic attitudes and values. As a woman said in response to a vigil that was held the other day, "We will have really made progress when we cannot remember his name, but the names of the 14 women that he killed." Thank you, Mr. Spea ker. Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Lead er of the Second Opposition) : Mr.

Speaker, one year ago, 14 young women though t they were safe , though t tha t somehow or other they had special trea tment because they were able to go to un iversity and into a faculty that was not trad itional for women. Their parents and their society had said to them, yes, be what you want to be. Fly like an eagle, soar like an eagle, fe el that you can be invincible . Someone said, no, I have a right to shoot you down. I have the right to perpetrate a violent act against you, and so 14 women are not with us today that should have been in the normal course of life .

When my daug hter, Jennie , went to univ ersity this year, in September, she had an experience I thought was one like mine and like so many here. She sat in a room, and they said, look to your right, look to your left and look ahea d. I thought the line she was going to then tell me is, you know, one of you will not be here, one of you will not gradua te, but that is not what they said. They said one of you will be assaulted at this un iversity, because tha t is the statistic, so do not walk in the dark. Do not cross the cam pus in the dark. Phone, and we will come and accompany you home if you mu st walk alone .

My daughter , Cathi, spent 12 hours twice a week on the phone last year at her univ ersity ta king calls from young women who had experienced date rape. She would get three or four calls a night. These are the daug hters of our society in which we said be strong, be free, do what you want to do. * (1 340) I am proud today that the Pr emier (Mr. Film on) of this province is wearing a button which says "feminist," because I am a fem inist. I am proud of it. I think all of us should be, because all it means is tha t we want for our female children the same opportuni ties as for our ma le childr en.

We want them to be free to grow and to soar. We do not want the m to be endange red, but we mu st interna lize and say, what can I do as one person to stop the violence, to stop the violence in our society as a whole? I would ask ea ch Mem ber of this House to do one simple thing , and that is to watch the violence of their own language. We are all guilty of it.

We ta lk about whippings: "You got whipped today" or "I beat up on you today." We someti mes use a clenched fist or use the expression, "Wantto do it outside?" or "Want to ta lk about it outside?" Those ar e ve ry violen t words, unl ess we internalize our own reactions and say, I will not say those violent thin gs, rememb ering that violent words can be listened to and can someti mes lead to violent acts. Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier) : Mr. Speaker, I too have a statemen t to make to the House today. Mr.

Speaker, in the Speech from the Throne at the opening of this Session , His Honour the Lieute na nt-G overnor ann ounced the Governmen t's intention to establish a Manit oba constitut ional task force to follow up the work of the Meech Lake Task Force and to provide advice on priorities for future constitut ional negotiations. Afte r consu ltati ons with the Lea der of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) and the Leader of the Second Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs), I sent a letter yesterday

December 6, 1990 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 260 1 to the chai rperson of the task force, Professor Wally Fox-Dece nt, outlining the ma ndate we are asking the task force to follow. Copies of the man date letter were distributed with the copies of this statemen t. The ma ndate entrusted to the task force is an onerous one. lt reflects the fact that Man itobans want to be well prepared for the difficult constitutional negotiations that lie ahead for our country and want to par tici pate in the most constructive way possible.

The letter specifies that we are not looking to the task force to pr opose a series of specific constituti onal amendmen ts. Rath er, we are asking the task force to assist the Governmen t in estab lishing a positive agenda for constitutional reform . After the events of last year, I know that ma ny Manit obans and many Cana dians would like to set aside constituti onal debate for as long as possible. That option is simply not open to us. The Province of Quebec has em barked on a major reassessment of the constitut ional changes and the kind of future it wants .

The Belanger -Cam peau Commission on the political and constituti onal future of Quebec is to report by the end of Mar ch. The federal Governmen t has appoi nted a Citizens' Forum on Cana da's future, the Spicer Commission, and has also an nounced a paral lel review of the constitu tional amen ding process. A numb er of other provinces have also ini tiated their own review processes. • (1 345) In the circum stances, it is essential that Man itoba be ready and ready soon for a nati onal debate that seems certain to be amon gst the most critical in the history of our country.

Ma nitobans have a proud trad ition as nation bui lders. We are Cana dians first and very proud of that fact. We want Cana da to remain un ited and strong. We want every province to feel that its voice is being heard when national policies are being established. We want every province and every region to be treated fa irly. That is the kind of Cana da I believe we all want to pass on to our children, but it is not the kind of Canada we have now. Ther e have to be changes. There have to be reforms.

We are looking to the new task force to help us identify the kinds of reforms which will rebuild co-operati on and trust and a sense of common purpose across this country. As the manda te letter states, the new task force is a solid base on which to begin its work. That base is of course the report of its predecessor, the Meech Lake Task Force. That report was developed with more public input and openness than any other across the country in the last two years. As the manda te letter points out, that openness contributed to the public understan ding of the issues and to the depth of the consensus that emer ged.

I believe that Man itoba will be best served if the new constituti onal task force approaches its duties in the same positive spirit as the Meech Lake Task Force and conti nues the same kind of open, consultative process.

The letter defines a broad and flexible ma ndate for the new task force, but also asks that the mem bers direct much of their attention to reviewing and ma king recommendations in six ma jor areas : First: Sena te reform, including the conclusion of the Meech Lake Task Force that Man itobans favour an elected, equal and effective Sena te and its recommen dation that Senate reform be given top priority in future constitutional discussions.

Second : The ot her concl usions and recommen dati ons of the Meech Lake Task Force, including those on the Charter of Rights, aboriginal rights, the rights of women and the recognition of Cana da's mu lticul tural heritag e. Third: The amending formula and the amending process for constitutional reform, including the need for greater flexibil ity and greater public input . Fourth : The division of powers between the federal and provincial Governme nts with the overall constitutional priorities for Man itoba, which are in the best interests of our province and the unity of Cana da.

Final ly: Constituti onal reform proposals which may be put forward in other jur isdictions across the country. We are asking the task force to give us a brief interim report by the end of March and a more detaile d report or reports late r in the new year. As with the Meech Lake Task Force, the new Man itoba Cons ti tut ional Task Force wi ll ha ve seven Mem bers, three from the Government side and three from the Opposition, plus an independent Chair. Governmen t Mem bers will be the Min ister of Jus tice and Constitutional Aff airs (Mr. McCrae), the

2602 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA December 6, 1990 Minister of Labour (Mr. Praz nik) and the Member for St. Vital (Mrs. Render ) . I believe the Leader of the Opposition will be nam ing two Mem bers in the near future, while the Leader of the Second Opposition has advised that her Party will be represented on the task force by the Mem ber for Crescentwood (Mr. Carr ) . As in the past, the Par ti es ma y name alterna tes as required. I have asked the chair of the task force to call the Member s together at the earli est opportunity with a view to beginning hearing s after Christm as.

Once the tas k force has held its ini tial procedural meeti ngs, it will announce the dates, locations and other arra ngeme nts for the hearing s. I believe all Members will join me in wishing the task force well as they unde rtake the responsibilit ies we are entrusting to them. I am confident that tha t trust is well placed. The work of the Meech Lake Task Force enabled our province to have a key leadership role in the last round of constitutional debates .

Now it is even more essential that Man itoba continue to show positive leadership, that we continue to reach out to other provinces and regions, that we continue to show a willing ness to respect the views and aspirations of other Canadian s and, most im portant of all, that we continue to affi rm our fu ndame ntal commitmen t to the futu re of a strong and un ited Canada. Thank you, Mr. Spea ker. .. (13 50) Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition) : Mr.

Speaker, it is indeed an honour to rise on the occasion of the creation by the Prem ier of an all- Party committ ee dealing with the constitutional challenge s we have before us. I would like to say at the outset that we support the manner in which the Premier has established the task force in terms of it being all- Party, and we support the components that allow the greatest public inp ut possible about their Constitution. I want to say at the outset, Mr.

Speaker, that we consider the uni ty of our country and the chal lenges for the uni ty of our country to be of the highest priority for our Party and for the people of our province, as the Premie r has outlined. We are concerned though about our country. We are concerned about the values that continue to be eroded in our country. We continue to be concerned about the priority of the recession and the economic savagery that is on our communities across this country and the priority that should have in our Man itoba society and in this Legislature .

We are concerned that the very fabrics and values of our country on a daily basis are being eroded. We had yesterday the announc emen t of our public broadcasti ng corporation being decima ted. That follows on announ cemen ts on transportation across the country, an nouncemen ts of the whole status of rural Canada, the whole values of our country. We see poten tially a discussion on medicare today, Mr. Speaker, which again is one of the items and programs that binds our country together and makes us different from Amer icans-m akes us Canadian s from coast to coast to coast. Mr.

Speaker, I want to say in all honesty that we will work together on an all-P arty comm ittee, but there are other priorities that must be addressed by this Legislatu re. We have proposed an all- Party committee on medicare . Why are we not havi ng an all- Party committee on the thing that makes us so diffe rent from Ame ricans ? We have proposed an all- Par ty committee dealing with our economy. Yet we are only going to hav e an all - Par ty com mittee dealing with the Constitution.

We believe the values of this country and the values of Man itoba are param ount to start getting Cana dian s working together again in a uni fied way, Mr. Speaker, not ju st words on a docume nt. I want to commen t on a few of the items in terms of reference. I partici pated in the task force report before and signed the document. The task force report does not say-and I have mentioned this to the Premi er (Mr. Filmon)-that Manit obans are in favour of a Tr iple-E Sena te.

They were in favour of public hearings to deal with the whole issue of Sen ate, because there is a great deal of confusion of where the powers of a Senate will be and what that will mean for Mani tobans. Second, I want to em phasize that we consider the highest priority of constitutional reform to be our aboriginal people. We do not necessarily believe it is just a thought on a piece of paper.

We think that aborigi nal rights and aboriginal people should be the paramount consideration of all Canadians, because we all have fail ed, all Parties , all Governmen ts have fa iled to deal with our constitutional obligations of Canada's fir st peoples, Mr. Speaker. I want to

December 6, 1990 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 2603 mention that in term s of the recommendati ons made by the Premier. I participated in the Meech Lake Task Force. I think the forma t of an all- Pa rty system on the Constitution is a valuable one. I am very worried about what is going on with all these committees all across the country right now. We have two federal committees. We have committees in Quebec. We have committees in Alberta. We have a committee coming in, in Ontari o, and we have a comm ittee now in Manit oba.

Surely as Canadians from coast to coast to coast we have to start working on the fundame ntal values of our country so we can keep our country together. As a person who worked before on the last task force report, and as a person who was involved before listening to people, and tried to ham mer together an all- Party consensus the last time we dealt with this issue, we will parti cipa te in an all-Party forum with the people of Ma nitoba.

We look forward to those deliberations, although we are very worried that those deliberati ons will take place in the middle of a recession with the savagery that will inflic t upon fam ilies in our province and in our country. Thank you very, very mu ch, Mr. Speaker. • (1 355) Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition) : Mr. Speaker, I welcome this announce men t today, because it is a furth er step in nation building, and we have seen far too mu ch in terms of the destruction of our nati on over the last few years.

I have great hopes for this parti cular task force because , as wonderful as the last task force was, ' and I think that those of us who sat on it reali zed tha t we were quite often reaching out and touching the heart beat of Mani tobans, we also felt a great deal of pressure because some of the decisions had been made by others. We had limi ted inpu t. We knew what Man itobans were saying, but we had to take our report to Cana dians.

We knew that there were Cana dians who for one reason or another were not prepared to listen to us, were not prepared to address the serious questions that we were asking and stating through the report of that task force. That is why it is so im portant that we do this task force now before any constitutional proposals are on the ta ble, so tha t when those constituti onal proposals are ult ima tely put on the ta ble, either through Quebec or through the federal Governmen t or indeed through us, that we have done this through an active

part icipa tion with the people of the Pr ovince of Man itoba and so that we will not be doing it after the fact; we will be doing it before the fact. That is why I feel some optimism with regard to this particular report, an optimism that I never felt totally with the others, because I knew within the framework tha t we were working. I feel that the scope of the task force as outlined by the Pr emier (Mr.

Filmon) is broad enough to address many, ma ny issues, not only those tha t were discussed in the last task force report, but new views that Cana dians, in particula r Mani tobans, would like to put forward about this nation. What kind of a nation do they want in the 21 st Century? If we put that chal lenge to Ma nitobans, I think Mani tobans will be very quick to come forward and tell us what their vision of Canada is.

Then we can go, whether it is any one of us here or someone diff erent from any of us gathered here, forward into the future with a Mani toba vision for Canada, because I think that Mani tobans are, as the Pr emier said today, first and foremost Cana dians. As Man it obans, we do see Canada from a Mani toba perspe ctive , and it is tha t Mani toba perspective we want to ably represent. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, ma y I direct the atte ntion of Honourable Members to the gallery, wher e we have from the Neepawa Collegia te thi rty-four Grade 11 students.

They are under the direction of Mr. Wayne Hollier. The school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Min ister of Environment (Mr. Cummin gs). Also this afte rnoon from the St. George School we have twenty-five Grade 9 students. They are under the direction of Mr. Clint Harvey. This school is located in the constituenc y of the Honourable Memb er for St. Vital (M rs. Render ) . From the Mennonite Brethren Collegiate Institute , we have seventeen Grades 7, 8 and 9 students. They are under the direction of Darlene Loewen. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Elmwood (Mr.

Maloway). On behalf of all Honourable Mem bers, I welcome you here this afternoon.

2604 LEG ISL ATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANI TOBA December 6, 1990 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Finance Ministers' Meeting Economic Discussions Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition) : Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Mi nister. Again we had confi rmation today that the items dealing with our economy and the recession will not even be discussed by the Finance Minis ters' me eti ng in Man itoba. Mr. Speaker, we have a recession that has been confirmed by a num ber of independent sources, including the Prem ier (Mr. Film on) and the Min ister of Financ e (Mr. Mannes s). We have high interest rates.

We have a proposed tax that is going to increase inf lati on. We have a dollar that is unrealistic, and yet the Min isters of Finance are not even going to deal with the issues that people are tal king about in their commu nity halls, in their coffee shops, and they are scared about it. They are very scared about it. My question to the Prem ier is: Will he have his Min ister of Finan ce, as chair of that mee ti ng, start to deal with the real issues fa cing Mani tobans and Canadians at that Financ e Min isters' meeting? We have no leadership from the Prime Mi nister.

Can we get a little leadership from the Min ister of Finan ce (Mr. Manne ss) today at the meeting in Winnip eg? * (1 400) Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premi er): Mr. Speake r, I think we mi ght fi rst ask for some consistency by the Leader of the Opposition. For two straight weeks that side of the House has assaulted the Minister of Finance with questions and demands that the future of medicare be the issue that be decided upon and worked on by the Finan ce Min isters-day after day after day the lead-off, opening questions from tha t side of the House.

Now, when that is the prime issue that has been set aside, that has been identif ied, that has been prioritized by the Finance Min ister, he is saying no, they should not ta lk about that, they should tal k about the economy. Mr. Speaker, I think that the Lea der of the Opposition ough t to be asham ed of hims elf, because he does not know where he is going. He is all over the map. Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, if the Premier would read the record, he will find on the Friday we asked about the GST, the high interest rates and the dollar, and on the Monday we asked about medicare-j ust to be totally consistent and look at the facts. Health Care System Governmen t Action Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Oppositio n): Mr. Speaker, my next question is to the Premi er. The Government of Man itoba is playing all sides agai nst the mi ddle on med icare . They are supporti ng Alberta . They are supporting British Columbia. They say they are dealing with all options.

Yesterday we ha d a state men t on me dicare from the New Democratic Minister of Finance from Ontari o, who said, I will lead the charge agains t these proposals from the western provinces. Will the Pr emi er of Manit oba join with the Governm ent of Ontar io in oppo sin g the disentang lemen t and the disenfranchisement of Canadians from their medicare program, rather than playing all sides agains t the middle with the other western Prem iers in Alberta and British Columbia? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier) : Mr. Speaker, the only thing consistent about the Leader of the Opposition is his inconsistency.

Day after day after day we have an inconsistent approach. I would invite the Leader of the Opposition to read that

article in which Floyd Laughr en, the Mini ster of Finance for Ontario, is quoted, because in exactly the same article, our Minister of Fina nce is saying tha t he too is opposed to the British Columbia position on it. Mr. Doer: Mr. Spea ker, the Min ister did not tell us what he was in favour of, a question we have been asking for weeks in this House. We know where the Minister of Finance from Ontario is at. We know where the Min ister of B.C. is at. There used to be an old saying that Vander Zalm used to come to these meeti ngs to explain the hard parts to Don Getty.

What does that mean about Man itoba now in terms of medicare ? Government Position Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition) : My question is to the Premi er. We have statemen ts from his Min ister of Health (Mr. Orchard) dealing with user fees in the Brandon Sun. I have read articles too. Can the Pr emier please tell us what he is in fa vour of rather than letting us gues s conti nually day afte r day as

December 6, 1990 LEG ISL AT IVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 2605 Manitobans have had to do over the last two weeks with his Governmen t? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premi er): Mr. Speaker, we have Question Period so I can explain the hard parts to the Mem ber for Concordia. On the record, over the past 1 0 days, despite the fact that the Leader of the Opposition has put plugs in his ears, I have stated that this admin istration is totally and completely opposed to user fees in medicare-p eriod, paragrap h.

On the record we have said that our objective is to ins ist that Ottaw a, no ma tte r who is in Governmen t, whether it be a Liberal Governmen t or a Conservative Governmen t or a New Democratic Governmen t, that whoever is in Governmen t, Mr.

Speaker, that they live up to their obligations to fund medicare so that we in the provinces can deliver the highest -(i nterject ion)- We have indicated, I have indicated that the objective is to ensure that there are no further reductions in EPF transfers to Ottawa so that we can ensure that the highest standards of hea lth care are able to be applied in this and every other province in this country. That is what has brought this whole discussion to the forefr ont, Mr. Speaker, so th at there is something that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer} can wonder about. Abuse Against Women Education Programs Ms.

Becky Barrett (We llington): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Education. A recent study done by the Canadian Teache rs" Federation of 1 ,000 teenage women across Canada found that many of them were frig htened to be alone with boys. "I personally know when to say no, but you could sti ll get raped ," said one young ninth-gr ader. What programs are being developed and put into place in Man itoba grade schools, junior highs and high schools to reinforce the fact that date rape is a serious crime and that "no" means "no"? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minis ter of Education and Training) : Mr.

Speaker, I would like to indicate to the Memb er opposite th at just recently we anno unced the new fam ily life program for schools in Man itoba. Indeed in our fa mily life program, which is part of the health program , there is a

section which deals with those kinds of situati ons and those kinds of ma tters. The program is a new one. lt has been revised from the program that was established two or three years ago, and I would be happy to share copies of the program with the Mem ber fo r her own informati on. Protection - Universities Ms. Becky Barrett (We llington): Mr. Speaker, my supplementary question is also to the Mini ster of Education.

What plans does the Mi nister have for cam batting the series of incide nts at both the University of Man itoba and the University of Winnip eg recently, the latest of which was a smea ring of a poster adverti sing the University of Man itoba vigil for the December 6 ma ssacre? What assurances can the Minister give women on these cam puses tha t they will be fully protected? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minis ter of Education and Training) : Mr. Speaker, as the Memb er well knows the university campuses are indeed the jurisdiction of each of the universities.

Universities operate as autonomous institutions in this province . There is no way that I, as a Mini ster, would try to atte mpt to im plem ent special program s at the university cam pus. This is a matter of course that has been discussed very seriously by the univ ersity com muni ty, and indeed I think they have take n some positive steps in the past to try and ensure that women in our univ ersities and in our schools feel that these instituti ons are safe places to be at in this province.

The Member raises a very valid concern that is out there. l think our universities are trying to do what they can at this ti me to ensure tha t these places are safe places for women to become educated in. Firearms Legislation Government Support Ms. Becky Barrett (W ellington): Mr. Speaker, my fi nal question is to the Minister of Ju stice. lt appear s that the federal Min ister of Ju stice, Kim Campbell, has shelved her proposed gun control legisla tion which woul d have prev ented the purchase of weapons such as the one used by Marc Le pine a year ago.

2606 LEG ISL ATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANI TOBA December 6, 1990 Has the Minister of Ju stice commun icated this province's complete support of this legislation and our deep concern over the dela y in bringing it forward to Parl iament? Hon. Jam es McCrae (Min ister of Ju stice and Attorney General): We have ma de known our support of that legislati on, and with regard to any undu e delays we would be registering our concern. CBC Cutbacks Government Reaction Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition) : Mr.

Speak er, yeste rda y we ha d confirmed what we had heard in ear lier reports, that major cuts will be made to the CBC. All of us recognize that in recessionary times tough choices have to be ma de. However, in this case a deliberate decision was made not to have an across-t he-b oard cut, but to slash and therefore destroy the lifebl ood of regional services across the country. All regional programing other than local news in the Pr ovin ce of Man itoba has been cance led.

Can the First Minister tell this House what official reacti on his Governmen t has taken with respect to the fu rther disentan glemen t, if you will, of Cana da? * (1 41 0) Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier) : Mr. Speaker, like all of those who work with and recognize the value of the CBC here in Mani toba, I was concerned about the reductions that took place , in par ticular those that will mean that various regional programs will be slashed and will be elimina ted. That obv iously is a matte r that we have great concern about. We also hav e conce rns abou t the announ cements ta king place just prior to Christmas.

I suppose there is never any good ti me, but this is a particularly bad time for people to lea rn about loss of em ploymen t and so on. Under those circum stances we I suppose are yet to be convinced of the method in which these were plan ned for, and we have to exam ine in detai l what that means. I guess we can take some comfort in the fact that many areas suffered much greate r cuts, parti cularly Alberta , particularly other regions of the country, the Mari times and so on. The cuts are never pala tabl e.

I guess the bottom line that all of us have to ask ourselves in the face of recessionary times is, how can we ju stify se eing consolida t ions, am algam ations and reduc t ions being ma de throughout the private sector in the broadcast industry and not have any of it affect the public sector broadcasting? lt is a difficult one. I know that these are the difficult choices that we face in this province as we look at how much money we have to support Governm ent supported activi ties. Mrs.

Carstalrs: Our concern is not that there have been cuts, but the type of cuts that they have taken, specifica lly to regional programing. Cana dians need to learn more about them selves, and Man itobans have to be able to express them selves through our so-ca lled national broadcasting system. Can the Fi rst Min ister tell the House if he will ma ke representations to the CBC and to the Governm ent of Canada about the nature of the cuts and the resu ltant inabil it y of Manit obans to re presen t themselves to the Canadian people? Mr. Fllmon: Mr.

Speaker, I guess I would have to know a great deal more about what the alternatives are . I would have to know where the money can otherwise be saved. I would have to ma ke the kind of judgment that we make when we sit at the Cabinet tab le, when we sit at the Treasury Board table.

When we look at the expenditur e of some $900 mi lli on annually on the public broadcast ing corporation and the fact tha t we are cu rrently arguing for more money to be made available for health care , for EPF transfers and all of those things, I would ha ve to say to myself, what ar e the alterna tives that we have to face and, within the corporation itself, what are the other areas that could be cut in place of the regional cuts? If the Memb er opposite has some suggestions that she wants to make, I guess she can share them with me. CBC Cutbacks Alternative Employment Mrs.

Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I have just a very brief suggestion. Qu ite fran kly, when we went through Meech Lake, we watched these national reporters coming out in droves to cover events that quite frankly could have been covered very easily by the local reporters and then maybe our true position could hav e been repr esente d in Ottawa and Toronto. My final question is to the Minister of Cultur e. CBC Man itoba has always been both a trainin g ground for new tal ent as well as a place for more mature

December 6, 1990 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 2607 tal ent to obtain work on a fre elan ce or contract basis. What alterna tives is her departm ent now looking to so that these young people can remain in our province to obtain their trainin g and more senior artisti c ta lents can find alternative work? Hon. Bonnle Mltchelson (Min ister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation) : Well, Mr.

Speaker, I do not think ther e are any of us here who are pleased whe never cut s are ma de by other levels of Government or any decisions are made to try to prioritize what is happe ning thr oughout our country, throughout our province. I do know that every new program that we look at as a Governmen t has to be looked at in conjunction with 50 other programs I might say that are all good programs. We have to prioritize what we do in the Province of Man itoba.

I know tha t our Government has prioritized health care , education, fam ily services, and I can not indicate today that there is going to be any in crease in expen diture on areas that the Memb er has indicated. Mental Health Centres Patient Abuse Advocate Ms. Jud y Wasy lyc la-lels (St. Joh ns) : Mr. Speaker, today and every day we should be working to end violence agains t women. I want to ask the Min ister of Heal th some questions flowing out of the allegati ons of sexual abuse at the Eden Mental Health Centre in Winkler.

I realize he has asked for a report on the allega tions and that the Ombudsman is investigating. I would like to ask the Min ister if he will address, this ma tte r on a broader basis and have the Governmen t show it is willing to assist in the healing of those who are or have been victims of some form of abuse.

Specifi cally, would the Min ister consider establ ishin g a sma ll, perhaps thre e-member independent commi ssion to hear the stories of mental health patients who have suffered some form of abuse, to ma ke referrals, counselling and therapy services if that is their wish and to advise such victims of their legal rights and the chance of seeking justice ? Hon. Donald Orchard (M inister of Health) : Mr.

Speaker, the issue of the unfortuna te abuse of pati ent rights, really, that was identified and actioned at Eden Mental Health Centre is one which the centre itself has atte mpted to, through offering those very services that my honourable friend refers to, provide that kind of support and counselling to the individual who made the original allegation . In terms of the larger issue of the extent to which those un for tu na te cir cum stances may have happened, of course, it is very mu ch the man date that the Ombudsman will investigate and report to us. Mr.

Speaker, I can only say to my honourable friend that those kinds of counselling services are avai lable at the institution men tioned, as well as throughout the depar tm ent and professionally through a numb er of institutions in the province , and are ther e ve ry openly and I hope accessed completely by individual s. Ms. Wasylycla-lels: Mr. Speaker, yes, I realize that is the fact, and I apprecia te the fact that the Minister will take my suggestion seriously sometime in the future for a healin g process for the victi ms of sexual abuse .

Would the Min ister also consider implemen ting something along the lines of the Ontario model of appointing advocates who are independent of the hospitals and the boards to defend and advise pati ents of their rights and also develop a set of guidelines on patien t abuse? Mr. Orchard : Mr. Speaker, to a substantial degree the current Mental Health Act provides a very mu ch open forum of identification of patien t rights and their abil ities to seek a second opinion in terms of treatm ent and in voluntary admission and other processes involved in The Mental Health Act.

I am hopeful that early in the new Session that we will have further strengthening of those initiatives through amendmen ts which will clarify and make, I think, better the current circum stances which deal with the patien t rights in institutions. Patient Abuse Reporting Guidelines Ms. Jud y Was y lyc la-l els (St. Joh ns) : Mr.

Speaker, I am wondering if the Mi nister would give some conside ra tion to a dev elopmen t of an across-the-board protocol for all faci lities in the Province of Man itoba so tha t there is a set of procedures that a hospital or a faci lity must follow when alleg ations of abuse are made. Hon. Donald Orchard (M inister of Health) : Mr. Speak er, I will take my honourable friend 's suggestion, and I will ma ke inqui ries as to what each

2608 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANIT OBA December 6, 1990 instituti on does. Out of knowledge of the institu tional manag emen t and their approach to pati ent care, I think that you will find tha t there is substantial consistency between the instituti ons in terms of how they appr oach allega tions of pat ient ab use, et cetera, by em ployees of institut ions. I will atte mpt to ve rify the cons istency that ex ists be twe en institutions presently. * ( 1 420) 811124 Consultations Ms. Marlanne Cerllll (Rad lsson) : Mr. Speaker, my first question is for the Premi er.

The current Environment Act was developed through consultation with the public. In accordance with the Act, amendmen ts are also to be developed by consulting and through consultation with the public and environmentalists. Yesterday I had the opportunity to attend a press conference where nine groups are asking for a meeti ng with the Premier to discuss the current amendmen t before the House. My question for the Premier is: When will the Pr emier me et with these environment groups regar ding Bill 24? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premi er): Mr. Speaker, I thank the Member for Radisson for the question.

I point out to her that this is not an exte nsive Bill . lt is a page and a half , a handful of clauses. lt is enabling legislation that is the product of extensive public ne gotiations and consu lta tions amo ngst 10 provinces and the federal Governme nt-all different political Parties represented at the tab le. lt enables the passage of regula tions that have al ready been out for public consultation throughout the province in a variety of different areas . Mr.

Speaker, under those circum stances, we are dealing with legisla tion that is to provide for a harmon ized process to the highes t stand ards between interjurisdictions and to the most restrictive process. The objectiv e is to be able to make legislation of various jurisdictions work and work effectively to protect the environmen t. In no way is the objective to in any way dimi nish either process or standards. I believe under those circumstances that all Man itobans should welcome that. 811124 Federal Responsibility Mr. Spea ker: The Honourable Member for Radisson, with her supplementary question. Ms.

Marlanne Cerllll (Ra dlsson) : My fi rst supplemen tary is for the Mini ster of Environme nt, who will know tha t although the Bill is short it has far-rea ching im plicati ons. I want to ask the Min ister: Why is the province rushing to take away environm ental responsibility fr om the federal Governmen t as this paper rec omme nds, which was developed by the Environmen t Ministers from all the provinces? Why are they wanting to- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Hon.

Glen Cumml ngs (Min ister of Environment): I want to correct any im plicati on that would indicate that we are trying to take away responsibility. In fact the thrust of the amendme nts that we have under Bill 24 is to repeat Ju stice Muldoon's admoni shment tha t we em brace warm ly the concerns and the issues tha t are raised in the fede ral interim guidelines. The fact is, we want to be able to ma ke our system work so it can accommodate the federal process.

The larger issue of what is in front of the comm ittee in the House of Commons is of harmon ization tha t has been en dorsed by all political stripes across this country. Mr. Speaker, the intent is to make sure that we do the best job we can of protecting the environment. Wording Mr . Spea ker: The Honourable Mem ber for Radisson, with her final supplementary question. Ms. Marlanne Cerllll (Radls son): Can I address the question to the Min ister of Environment?

If this Governmen t is so interested in having the highest standard att ained when assessing the environme nt, why is that not stated in the Bill specifica lly? Hon. Glen Cummlngs (Mini ster of Environment): Mr. Speaker, one of the reasons that the Bill is worded the way it is is that in striking an agreement with the federal Government, it is very obvious that the standards that are the highest in either our Act or their Act will have to be achieved or an agreem ent will not be struck. The simple fact is that there are some alm ost 50 joint processes going on across the

December 6, 1990 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 2609 country today, and we want to ma ke abu ndantly sure that there is no question within this province that we have the capabilit y to enter into a joint process and do tha t to the hig hest possible standards. Firearms Control Purchase Restrictions Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James) : Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Ju stice (Mr. McCrae). This being the fi rst anniv ersary of the Montreal massacre, I believe it is appropriate to yet again raise the question of gun control, which has alrea dy been referenced by the Member for Wellington (Ms.

Barrett) today. Ironically, as she has pointed out, we have now learn ed that the federal Min ister of Ju stice is letti ng the gun control legisla tion presently before the House of Commons die on the Order Paper. This is in deed reg re tta ble . lt is un accept able to Man itobans, and I know it is una cceptable to this Mi nister.

My question for the Min ister is: In the absence of federal action, can he indicate whether or not he is willing to move to requir e the vendors of firearms in this province to requir e at least two pieces of identificati on to correct the problem that exists, which is that those who qual ify to own the gun are not necessarily the people who get to purchase it? Hon. Jam es McCrae (Min ister of Ju stice and Attorney General): The Honourable Mem ber's question is well taken, Mr. Speaker.

The problem that seems to arise though on occasion is that guns used to commit crimi nal acts are very often acqui red' by virtue of a cri min al act. -(i nte rjecti on)- The Honourable Mem ber for Osborne (Mr. AI cock) says not always. Of course, he is correct. lt is interesti ng how two Member s can somehow get in on the same question. In any event, our Governm ent will continu e to do all in its power to ma ke Man itoba a safe environment for women, for fam ilies. We indeed expect to be hearing from Dorothy Pedlar with respect to gun control, which was part of her ma ndate for her review. Mr.

Edwards: I did put tha t suggestion forward at least a year and a half ago. I would like the Min ister to consider it, becaus e I think he does hav e jur isdiction to do that . Family VIolence Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James) : Can the Min ister indicate whether or not he has taken acti on as he promised some months ago to ensure that the various agencies that may become aware of a domestic violent situa tion or a potentially violent situation inform police, who can then act to remove fi rearm s from homes where it is felt that they may be used in a violent way, remove them for the time that is necessary? Hon.

Jam es McCrae (Min ister of Ju stice and Attorney General): Both the Departm ent of Fam ily Services and the Departm ent of Ju stice have taken very close note of the findings of Ju dge Norton with respect to the Reid inquest, which touches on the matters the Honourable Mem ber is tal king about. The Honourable Min ister of Family Services (Mr. Gillesham mer), I think may be able to answer better for the Department of Family Services, but certainl y commun ications among agencies, the Reid case I bel ieve does point out tha t ther e is room for im provement in those commu nications.

Crlmlnal lnjurles Compensation Program Implementation Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Memb er for St. James , with his fina l supplementary question. Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James) : Fina lly, for the same Minister, will the Min ister consider amending The Crimi nal Injuries Compensation Act in this province to provide for damages for pain and suffering? Those damages are presently avai lable in eight other provinces and one of the territ ories; yet regrettably, they are not available in Manit oba. Hon. James McCrae (Min ister of Jus tice and Attorney General): I appreciate the Honourable Memb er's suggestion, Mr.

Speaker. GATT Negotiations Government Position Ms. Ros ann Wowch uk (Swan Ri ver) : Mr. Speaker, farm ers throughout Cana da are suffering because of low grai n prices resulting from the interna tional trade wars. We are al l waiting for the results of the GATT talks, but it appear s that the tal ks are on the verge of collapse. My question is to the Premier (Mr . Filmon). What is the position of the Government if the agricultural issue is not adequa te ly address ed? Is the

261 0 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA December 6, 1990 Government recommending to the federal Min ister of Agricu lture that the Canadian delegat ion walk away from the tabl es, or is there an alter nate suggestion? Mr. Speaker : Order, please . The Honourable Mem ber's question is hypothetical . I would ask the Honour able Memb er to kindly rephr ase her question, please. Ms. Wowchuk: Can the Premi er tell this House if he has a guarantee from his Tory counterparts in Ottawa that fa rmers will get a deficien cy payment this spring , a paymen t that is so desper at ely needed, if the talks fall through? Hon.

Gary Fllmon {Premier): Mr. Speaker, that is highly hypothetical. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh I Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. The Honourable Memb er for Swan River has the floor, please. Ms. Wowchuk: Can the Governmen t tell us what its policy is if the GAlT talks are not successful? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh I Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. The Honourable Memb er for Swan Riv er, kindly put your question, please. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, can the Premier tell us what this Government's policy is on GAlT and the agricul tural issues? Mr . Fll mon : Mr.

Speak er , we have str ong representation in Brussels. I, as the Memb er knows, led a delegation including the Mini ster of Agricultur e (Mr. Rndla

y) and the Min ister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Ernst) in late Septe mber to the GAlT in Geneva, because we were concerned about the outcome for farm ers, concerned about the major chal lenge tha t faces farm ers and concerned about the necessity of removing export subsidies on grai n. We led that delegation.

We went and spoke with people from the GAlT, from the EC, from all of the various Cairns Group of countries, the United States and all of these people, to ensure that Canada's position was strongly and forcefu lly put forward, that we must have a ma jor reduction of export subsidies on grain to prevent future grain wars, prevent our western Cana dia n fa rmer s from losing the ir livelihood. That is why the two Min isters are there. That is why we are very forcefu lly pursuing that issue on behalf of western Canadian farm ers, Mr. Spea ker. * (1 430) Agricultural Assistance Deficiency Payments Ms.

Rosann Wowchuk {Swan River): Can the Prem ier tell this House if he has a guar antee from his counterpar ts in Ottawa that farm ers will get a deficie ncy payment this spring, a pa yment that is desperate ly ne eded seeing the crisis tha t the fa rmers are in? Hon. Gary Fllmon {Premi er): Mr. Speaker, again we are on the record way back to September, perhaps it was Augu st, that I wrote to the Prime Min ister and said that even with the GA lT talks, regardless of their outcome we were going to need a defi ciency payment for farm ers based on the low prices of grain this year.

I issued a news release, either late August or early Septemb er. In fact I issued it when I was in Swan River, so the Member may well have a copy that she could see that for months and months and months that has been the position of this Government. Perhaps she is reading my old press release to get her question, Mr. Spea ker. Land Lease Program Ms.

Rosann Wowchuk {Swan River) : Given that fa rmers are havi ng difficulty main taining their land base, is this Governm ent willing to im plement a long-t erm land lease program, which has been recommen ded by the United Church and many other groups who consider this to be a very im portant thing for far mers? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premi er): Mr. Speaker, ! do not think that the Memb er for Swan River speaks for the majority of farm ers. They do not want to be tenants in their own province. They do not want to be tenant fa rmers. They want the opportunity to own their land and to have a reasonable income on that land.

They need that in order to have their dignit y, in order to have their abilit y to -(i nterjecti on)- well , Mr. Speaker, if they are speaking for a groundswell of people, if the NDP want to turn everyone into tenants on their own land, I do not accept that whatsoever.

December 6, 1990 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 261 1 Social Assistance SAFFR/SAFER Benefits Mr. Doug Martlndale (Bu rrows): Mr. Speaker, this honourable min ister has a ques tion for the Honourable Minis ter of Fa mily Se rvices (Mr. Gille sham mer). Today several Cabi net Min isters and Opposition Mem bers met with a delega tion from the United Church of Canada advocating not for them selves but on urban issues for the poor and ma rginal ized.

The Min ister knows that existing social assistance rate s, especial ly rental al lowance s, are totally inadequate to al low any choice in the housing market, forcing frequent moves and use of food bank outlets. Therefore could the Minister of Fam ily Services (Mr. Gil lesham mer ) ma ke a change in existing policy and permit social assistance recipi ents and the elderly to qual ify for and receive without penalty SAFFR and SAFER benefits in order to improve the quali ty of housing they can afford ? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Mi nister of Housing) : Mr.

Speaker, first of all it was the Housing Min ister that discussed the SAFFR and SAFER issue with the delegati on, and I must men tion tha t it was a very, ver y good me eti ng. This Govern men t was congratula ted on fina lly bringing forward good legislation on The Residential Tenancies Act, long awaited for many years. However, it was explain ed to the group that the original SAFFR and SAFER proposal set up by the former Lyon adm inistration was principally to deal with the low earner s and the pensioners, not the welfare.

There was discussed at the meeting the, court issue that is going on at the present tim e, Mr. Speaker. Housing Advocacy Group Mr. Doug Martlndale (B urrows) : Would the Mi nister of Housing establish an advocacy office for tenants , since many low-income tenants will not approach the Rentalsman's Office and to prevent ab uses by some la ndlords who unscrupulously exploit ten ants ? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minis ter of Housi ng): Mr. Speaker, it was also discussed with the group that under our legislation there will be an advisory committee established. There will be an education fund estab lished.

Maybe under that educati onal funding that will be establi shed through our Bil l, some type of advocacy group would be established under the education fun ding. Central Housing Registry Mr. Speaker: The Member for Burr ows, with his final supplementary question. Mr. Doug Martlndale (Bu rrows) : Would the Mi nister of Housing agree to use the education fund to establish a central housing registry which would allow tenan ts access to informati on on lan dlords, such as the exis tence of he alth and by-la w infracti ons so that tenants can make choices and not be forced into substandard housing? Hon.

Gerald Ducharme (Minis ter of Housing) : Mr. Speaker, first of ali i also explai ned to the group that ma de representation that it is this Governmen t that established the first registry, and that was with the Natives, through the core area grant in the past year, and also established a form of registry for the disabled. lt is an experimen tal program . We did ta lk in regard to a registry. This would be a result of the educati onal fund. lt was considered and discussed at that particular meeting. St. Bonlface Hospital Obstetrical Unit Closure Mr. Gulzar Cheema (The Maples): Mr.

Speaker, my question is for the Min ister of Health . This Min ister has fa iled to solve the issue of the obstetrical unit at St. Boniface Hospital, which has caused significant pain and distress to pregnant women and the staff. The unit has been closed more than 40 times since he took over as the Min ister of Health . For the last three months the unit has been closed more than 665 hours for low risk. Can the Mi nister of Health tell us why he has failed to solve this very important issue? Hon. Donald Orchard (M inister of Health) : Mr.

Speaker, as my honourable fr iend well knows, and it was indicated to him in Estimates last week, the issue of obstetrics and the capacity for obstetrics am ongst our urban hospitals is the subject of a task force of the Health Advisory Network, the report of which we are expecti ng in the near future . I give him the agenda and the ti ming of the receipt of that report.

26 12 LEG ISL ATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MAN ITOBA December 6, 1990 I will, as I did with the exte nded trea tm ent bed review, be prepa red to consider the advice of tha t report and ma ke decisions in very quick order. Obstetrical Unit Expansion Mr. Gulzar Cheema (The Maples): Mr. Speaker, this issue has been ra ised on Se pte mb er 9, Decem ber 17 , 19 88, and September 27, 19 89. This uni t is being closed more than once every week. Can the Min ister tell this House when finally he will expand the obstetrical uni t at St.

Bonif ace Hospital and when he will fi nally organ ize the obstetrical services in the Winnip eg hospitals. Hon. Donald Orchard {Minis ter of Health) : Mr. Speaker, this is sort of the deja vu scenario again with the-is it deja vu ? How do you say that? I am sorry.l do not have, you know, sortof the experience that Mem bers of the New Democratic Party have in deja vu .

This is exactly the position my honourable friend and his Leader took in Janua ry of this year where they urge the acceptance of an extended trea tment bed recomme ndation that was incomplete and would have left Concordia Hospital, the whole northeast quadran t of the city unserved by tha t report. Mr. Speaker, I do not intend to repeat and take that bad advice again from my honourable friends in the Liberal Party.

I am going to wait for the advice to come from the task force studying the issue with expert input from hospitals and professionals, and I will thank my honourable friend for his endorsation of the results and recomme ndations I will ma ke pending receipt of that report. Obstetrical Transfers Mr. Gulzar Cheema (The Maples) : Mr. Speaker, while this Minister is waiti ng, patients are being transfe rred. Can he tell us how much it is costing the taxpayers by his ma nage ment, because patients are being transferred from the St.

Bonif ace Hospital to the Misericordia or the Victoria hospitals once at least every week? Can he justify rather than his ma king fu n of a very important issue? Hon. Donald Orchard {Min ister of Health) : Mr. Speaker, I do not believe that ther e are patients being transferred from Misericordia, from Victoria. I think what my honourable friend meant to say is tha t when the St.

Boniface unit is at capacity, which has happened a numb er of ti mes over the last three to four years, that those patients then go to Victoria Hospital or Misericordia Hospital and from time to ti me Health Scienc es Centre to be adm itted and to have delivery of their babies. Mr. Speaker, that is exactly the quan dary that Governmen t is in and has asked for expert advice on. We have one hospital at capacity, an un used capacity, within 15 mi nutes of that hospital in the City of Winnip eg.

My honourable friend is urging capital investment to expand in one area when we have unu sed capac ity in other hospitals to be uti lized. Now I am seeking advice from the commun ity, the hospitals to make reasoned decisions on what Gov ernmen t ough t to do to ap proach this long- standing problem. Mr. Speaker, I think the system will be well served by decisions- • (1 440) Mr. Speak er: Or der , plea se . Time for Oral Questions has expired. HOUSE BUSINESS Hon. Albert Drledger {Mi nister of Highways and Transportation) : Mr.

Speaker, I ask the indulge nce of the House for one mi nute while our Deputy House Leader is completing arran gemen ts that we will be recording. Hon. Jam es Downey {Acting Government House Leader) : Mr. Speaker, before enteri ng into the Supply motion, which we are intending to do, I would ask if you would canvass Mem bers if we would have leave to waive private Member s' hour this afterno on. Mr. Speaker: Is there unanimous consent to waive private Mem bers' hour? Some Honourable Members : No. Mr. Speaker: No. Leave is denied. Mr. Downey: Mr.

Speaker, it is unfortunate, as I thought they would be in the Christmas spirit and want to be in the mood of giving . lt is unfortunate. Mr. Speaker, I wonder if you would canvass the House to see if it would be in agreemen t to sit this evenin g from either eight unti1 12 , or seven to 11. Mr. Speaker: Is there unani mous consent to sit between the hours of eight and midnight?

December 6, 1990 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA 261 3 Some Honourable Members : No. Mr. Speaker: No. Leave is denied for that. Is there unani mous consent to sit between the hours of seven and 11 ? Some Honourable Members : No. Mr. Speaker: No. Leave is denied for that. Mr. Downey: Mr. Speaker, so far I am not batting very well. I will try the next one. -(i nterjecti on)- Well, this is what Clayton had asked me to ask for. Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. The Honourable Acting Government House Lea der, what are your intentions, sir? Mr. Downey: Mr.

Speaker, it is my under standing the n that we would provide the Mini ster of Environment's (Mr. Cummin gs) Estimates in the House and proceed to do Fa mily Ser vices in comm ittee room. Having the completion of either, we would proceed to do the Min istry of Health. Mr. Speaker, I the refore move, seconded by the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation (Mrs. Mit chelson), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to co nsider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Mr.

Speaker: Is there unanim ous consent to do Environment within the Chamber, Family Services in Room 255, and if that is completed, to do Health ? Agreed. * (1 450) Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Memb er for St. Norbert (Mr. Laur endeau) in the Chai r for the ' Departmen t of Fam ily Services, and the Honourable Member for Seine Riv er (Mr s. Dacquay) in the Chair for the Departm ent of Environment. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUP PLY SUPP L V-FA MIL Y SERVICES Mr.

Deputy Chair man (Mar cel Lauren dea u) : Order, please. The Committee of Supply, please come to order. This aft ernoon, this

section of the Committee of Supply meeti ng in Room 255 will resume considerat ion of the Estima tes of the Departmen t of Fam ily Services. When the com m ittee las t sat , it had been considering the item 6.(

b) Child Day Care : (1 ) Salaries $1 ,679,800 on page 64 of the Estima tes book. Shall the item pass ? The Honourable Minister, you had some opening comme nts and answers to some of the questions? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (M inister of Family Services) : Mr. Deputy Chairm an , I have a couple of items to deal with. When we were reviewing Fam ily Services Information Systems bran ch, the Memb er for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) requested that I provide him with copies of input documen ts for the various informa tion systems of this departm ent.

I can now provide the two Opposition Critics with a set of input forms for the departm ent's information systems. This inform ati on constitutes a rather extensiv e package of forms and is preceded by a summa ry which lists each of the systems and the related inpu t form titles contained in the package. The second item I have , the Memb er for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) requested clarif icati on regarding the avai labil ity of federal cost shari ng under the Canada Assistance Plan for per diem payments to St. Am ant on behalf of persons 18 to 21 years of age.

I am advised that the Cana da Assistance Plan will provide full cost sharing for paym ents to instituti ons like St. Amant up to age 21 , provided these residents are legally defined as children under provincial legislation. Under Manit oba's Child and Fam ily Services Act, howeve r, legal guar dianship and volunt ary placemen t agreeme nts for children aut omatically expire when the age of majority, 18 years of age , is att ained. With the written approval of the director of Child and Fam ily Service s, child welfare agencies can continue to provide transitional services for former wards up to age 21 .

However, under the Act, these services are technically provided to adults, not to children. In the case of St. Amant, legal guar diansh ips and voluntary pla cement agreemen ts expire under The Child and Fam ily Services Act when residents turn 18 , at which time an order of supervision may be obtained under

Part 2 of The Mental Health Act. Because 18 -year-old St. Amant residents are no longer def i ned as chi ldren under provi ncial legislation , Cana da Assistance Plan cost sharing is lim ited to the OAS/GIS ma ximum. This lim itation is based on the assumption tha t institut ional costs for adults above the OAS/GIS max imum are already being cost shared under the EPF arrange ment.

26 14 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA December 6, 1990 In answer to the Mem ber's question, in order to obtain full CAP cost sharing at St. Am ant, provincial legislation would have to be amen ded to allow for the form al ex te nsion of legal gu ardianship or voluntary placemen t agreeme nts for children to age 21 . Legislative amen dments to this effect are not being contemp lated at this time. That is it. Ms.

Becky Barrett (Welli ngton) : In the interests of expediting the Estima tes process so that ot her im portant departmen ts can have adequate time for their Estimates to be undert aken, I am going to ask very few questions in the departm ent of Day Care , not that I do not think that it is an important division in this department, but I just ha ve a few questions. Then we will look forward to additional meetings with the Mini ster and the staff on any other questions I might have . I am wondering if the Minis ter can provide us either now or later with a copy of wait lis ts for day cares.

I understand that there are day cares that have ma de applicati on to be part of the process, but have not yet come on stream . Mr. Gllleshammer: We have the information here. lt is quite extensive, involving 1 0 or 12 pages, and we would be quit e prepared to forward that to you. Ms. Barrett: Thank you, and I would be quite prepared to wait for that to be forwarded to me. As well, could you include, or do you have avai lable, the criteria for fu nding tha t you look at when assessing the appropriate ness of these day cares for fund ing ? Mr.

Gllleshammer: Decisions with respect to new, provincially fun ded day care spaces are made by the Minis ter of Fa mily Ser vices following the finaliz ati on of the departm ent's budget for child day care services each year. During the annual budget approval process, a specific numb er of new day care spaces are identified for development within the budgetary al location . The budget may specify approval for certain types of day care spaces or the geographic location.

The decision as to which group or type of day care will be allocated spaces considers the following factors with there being no specific formula or weighti ng of any one area: ( 1 ) Governmen t priorities for day care development ; (2) financial viability; (3) licensing and qual ity care issues; (4) availabil ity of other services in the area; (5) need for subsidy by parents ; (6) relative deman ds for spaces in other areas of the province ; (7) whether a centre is alrea dy operati ng ; (8) need for commun ity development of day care where no group has requested funding ; (9) geographic location. Ms.

Barrett: Can the Mi nister table or read to us, or get for us, what the Government priorities are? Mr. Gllleshammer: In the last period of time, the em phasis has been on fa mily day care and workplace day care . We have also included some group day care . Ms. Barrett: Is there a list of the grants that ma ke up the item in the budget that we are discussing? If that is avai lable, if I could ask for a copy now or have it delivered at a later ti me? Mr. Gllleshammer: There are a num ber of grants avai lable. There is a start-up gran t -(i nterjection) that is not what the Memb er wants? Ms.

Barrett: I am sorry I asked for grants . What I meant to ask for was a list of the day cares that receive grants . I apologize for that . .. {15 00) Mr .GII Ieshamm er: This is a list of centres that were funded this year. In Winnip eg: Sister MacNam ara Pre-sch ool, which has 40 spaces; Pinkham , which has 40 spaces; Panda Bear, which is a Burns em ployees' day care , 40 spaces; Bumper Crop Day Care , 40 spaces; McPhill ips Co-op Day Care, 40 spaces; Action Centre Day Nursery, 8 spaces. In addition, some rural centres : at Lorette, the Tache Commu nity Day Care, 40 spaces; at Ste.

Anne , Ecole Pointe de Chenes, 13 spaces; and at Fisher Bra nch, the Fisher Branch Care-A-Lot for Tots Inc., 24 spaces. In addit ion , some fam ily day care homes: in Winnipeg, homes amo unting to 56 spaces; in greater Mani toba, 84 spaces. Ms. Barrett: Do these grants add up to the amount of money in the Estim ates under Grants ? Mr. Glllesham mer: The list I provided for you are the new spaces that came on stream this year and are over and above the existing spaces. Ms. Barrett: Would it be possible for the Minister to provide me, at a later date , with the list of the day cares fu nded by this province? Mr.

Gllleshammer : We can do that, and we will do that.

December 6, 1990 LEG ISL AT IVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA 2615 Ms. Barrett: Thank you. On the Grants , could the Min ister explain to me what the criteria are that the Gran ts are based on? Is there a form ula? Mr. Gllleshammer: As I started to indicate before, there are a numb er of grants such as the start-up grant, and it would be based on the numb er of spaces that would be in the centre, the ma intenance grants similarly. Salary enhanc emen t gra nts would depend on the background of the instructors. Ms. Barrett: Thank you, I appreciate tha t.

Is there any recogniti on, in the operating grants that are given to day cares, of variations in their actual operati ng costs due to some centres, I imag ine, owning their own space, others having to pay rent, the problems with rural and northern centres? Mr. Gllleshammer: The income that the centre gets over and above the start- up, main tenanc e and salary enhanc emen t is the fees that are char ged per child. In ma ny cases, that fee is paid by the parents. In some ca ses, the depar tment has fu ll responsibility for paying tha t fe e.

So the amoun t of money that the centre would get for operating on this basis would reflect the numb er of children that are in the day care centre . Also, the day care for infants is more expensive than pre-scho ol, and in some cases, there are special needs. Ms. Barrett: So those grants that we have been ta lking about are volume sensitive. Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, with the caveats that I put on there, but yes, the centre's income would be based on volume. Ms. Barrett: Mr. Deputy Chair, I have one final area of questions, and that deals with the goods and services tax and the imp lications on day care.

I rece ived from the Mani toba Ch ild Car e Association a letter that they requested information from a chartered accountant as to what the potential implications of the goods and services tax would be on day care centre operations. lt states that it appears there will be a very high likelihood that centres will be requir ed to pay goods and services tax on at least some items.

I am wondering if the budgeting process for next year or for the final quarter of this year has taken that into account or if the division has been ta lking with day cares about the financial requiremen ts that might be upon them on Janu ary 1 . Mr. GII Ieshammer : Yes, we have some information on the GST impact as we understand it and know it to date. There will be no GST payabl e on parent fees for child care. There will be some areas that day care centres will be paying GST on services and goods they have purchased.

Salaries and basic groceries are not tax ed, and certai nly with day cares, their predominant cost is salaries. I would also mention that 50 percent of the GST paid can be refunded to day care centres if they meet one of two criteria. The day care centre could be a registered charity, or the day care centre must be in receipt of at least 40 percent of thei r fu nding from one of three levels of Government.

I would add tha t Child Day Care has been in touch with customs and excise information for charit ies and non-pr ofits, have been advising centres to register for the GST and become regis te red charitable organiz ations, and to call the toll-free GST number for more informat ion. So the impact of GST does not seem to be a major factor with the day ca res. Ms. Barrett: I will just put briefly on the record that it ma y not be a major factor insofar as a certain am ount of money, but there will be some additional expenditure required because they are only elig ible for 50 percent rebate of those rebatable items.

So I am just asking if that has been taken into account, or is the departm ent saying at this point, find from within, we will not look at additional requests from day care to assist them with the GST costs in the fi rst quart er of 19 91 . The other area of cost tha t I think is going to potentially be the most substantial for all of these organiz ati ons is the admi nistrative costs attached to getting the rebate and registeri ng and doing the accounting and the administration that will flow from this. Agai n, as we have tal ked about before, the im pact is unknown.

The fact that there will be an im pact is, I believe, known. So I am just asking if the division has ma de any recommendations to the Mi nister on tha t, or if there is any plans of what to assist day cares in this endeavour? Mr. GII Iesham mer: I have indicated in my previous answer the im pact that we see, and we thi nk the im pact will be mi nimal. Certainly we will monitor that and take that into consideration. ! would indicate that funding for day cares has been incre ased substantially in the last couple of years, and I think to the point where they can manage this impending im pact.

26 16 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA December 6, 1990 Ms. Barrett: I have a great deal more questions to ask in this division, but I will hold those questions until a ti me when I can meet with the staff, and thank you very much. Mr . fteg AI cock (Os borne ) : Mr. Depu ty Chairperson, I would like to start in this one with just first some questions for informa tion . Before we do that, I wonder if the Mini ster would entertain t'(io questions from the income security area, not typical questions? • (1!)1 0) Mr. Gllleshammer: Certai nly. Mr.

Alcock: The first one I meant to ask yesterday and I forgot to, cur rently I am told that in the provincial library here there is no current up-to-dat!OI copy of the Income Securi ty Standards manual, and I am wondering if it would be possible to see tha t one is there and one is kept up to date on a regular basis? Mr. GII Ieshammer : We would be pleased to accede to that. ftllr. Alcock: The second thing is that in a case of excess special needs, I was led to understand that in order to access excess special needs fund ing a person has to have a medical certificate or has to have a recommendation from a doctor.

Is this the case? Mr. Gllleshammer: I am told the answer is no. Mr. Alcock: Perhaps the Minister then could ma ke that informa tion available to staff because a person, in atte mpting to access the special needs fun ding to replace a coat, was told that he could only get tha t on presentation of a medical certificate . Mr .GII Ieshammer: Perhaps if you could give us the individual case, we could sort it out. Mr. Alcock: I will endeavour to do that, and perhaps at the end of today's discussions.

Okay, on Child Day Care now, can the Min iste r star t ju st by answering a few simple questi ons about the size and the scope of the program for this year ? How ma ny new spaces is it intended that this year's program will create? Mr. Gllleshammer: Ther e will be 51 7 new spaces. Mr. Alcock: How ma ny of those new spaces will receive the grants ? Mf. fl (lle shammer: I am told all of these will be receiving grants. Mr. Alcock: What is the percentage increase in the grant paid this year over last year? Mr.

Gllleshamrner: The main tenance grants were increased by 5 percent, and salary enhanc emen t grants by $500 for funded centres, and $750 for nonprofit centres not funded by Government. Mr. Alcock: Were there any increases to the other lesser grants that are given: the audit grant, the i11fant grant, the start-up grants ? Mr. Gllleshammer: No . Mr. Alcock: Will each of these 51 7 spaces be receiving the start-up grants ? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, they will be receiving the start-up grant. Mr. Alcock: There is a one-ti me only equi pment grant for unfunded nurseries. Do any of these qualif y for that? Mr.

Gllleshammer: No. Mr. Alcock : Perhaps, then, the Min ister can just help me unde rstand the in formation tha t the departm ent has presented. When one looks at the Grants list here, the figur es that are presented in the Grants list for '89-90 totalled $19 ,432,600 on the Grants line, and that reconciles to the dollar, or to the hundr ed dollars act ually, with the Gran ts in forma ti on present ed on page 95 of the supplemen tary information booklet.

For the year ending 19 91 , the fig ur e is $1 9,602,200, which aga in, when one totals up the various grants that are presented on the Grants list, there would seem to be some equat ing, except when you look at the Day Care Centres and Homes change, year over year, we go from $18, 724,800 to $1 8,874,900, an increase of .8 of 1 percent in the overall amoun t of grants that are being paid. The question is, where do we find the fund ing for 51 7 new spaces receiving grants, and where do we find the fun ding to increase the main tena nce grants by 5 percent? Mr.

Gllleshammer: There was an overestimation the previous year, and the actual am ount spent in '89-90 was $1 6.5 mil lion. That accounts for that discrepancy. Mr. Alcock: Now it is the second ti me we have encountered an overestim ation as soon as we moved into this parti cular division of the departm ent. Why are we some $2 milli on out in our estimations

December 6, 1990 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 2617 of something that is easy to identify as day care spaces requiring grants ? Mr. GII Jesham mer: A couple of reasons for that. Some of the new centres tha t were being started the previous year were delayed. The start- up actually took place later in the year, so they received only a part-year fundi ng. Secondly, funds were set aside for salary enhancement grants, and a somewhat lesser figur e of uptake there was realized than had been predicted.

So for those reasons ther e is a diffe rence between the actual expenditures and the estim ated expenditures the previous year. Mr. Alcock: In the new ce ntres that were delayed then, how ma ny spaces within new centres that delayed opening do they take into consideration? What is the num ber there? Mr. GII Jesham mer: We have given you the new spaces for this year. What you are asking is the new spaces for the previous year? * (1 520) Mr.

Alcock: If I understood the Min ister correctly, you are saying that part of the reason for the $2 mil lion diff erence between what appears here and what was act ually spent was that a num ber of new centres last year, presuma bly centres that were planned to come on stream last year, cam e on late r than was originally intended. I am just asking, how many-not just how ma ny centres, but how ma ny spaces? Mr. Gllleshammer: The total numb er of spaces that came on stream in 19 89-90 was 376.

I can give you a listing of the Winnip eg centres and the rural , but I, do not think that is really what the Mem ber is looking for. So the funding had been put in place for these in the ant icipation tha t they would come on stream at the beginning of the year. Some of them had some difficulties and , as a result, cam e on stream later in the year and received partial funding . Mr. Alcock: That was 376 spaces, and now we are bringing on stream 51 7 spaces. How many of these spaces that are due to be brought on stream this year are currently in operat ion? Mr.

GII Ieshammer: Of the 51 7 spaces, 425are now operational, but they were not all operational April 1. They came on stream throughout the first three qua rters of this year, so roughly some 80 percent of those antici pated spaces are now operati onal. Mr. Alcock: Is it antici pated that the 92 remaining spaces will become operational before March 31 st of this year? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes. Mr.

Alcock: Now then, the estim ate that we have here of $8,87 4,000 for the grants to day cares in this year, does this estima te carry within it the same shortfall, the same amoun t of flexibili ty, if you like, as the one in the year before, particularly given that we are opening another 13 0-s ome odd spaces? Mr. Gllleshammer: lt is anticipated that the figur e that we have in the Estima tes will more accurately reflect the expenditures for the current fiscal year. Mr.

Alcock: This Jag between what we say publicly that we are going to spend in these particular areas and what we act ually spend, is this something that is chronic in this division? Is this something that occurs year over year because of forecas ting diff iculties in the start-up times, or is this something that is unique to the past few years? Mr.

Gllleshammer: This is something that has happened over the last few years. lt is one of the diff iculties that the centres that come forward with enthusia sm antici pate that they are going to be open early in the fiscal year and then run into some of their realities of opening a centre , and they are delayed. So it is something that has happened over the last few years. Mr. Gllleshammer: That is an under standable circumstance for some centres, but a $2 milli on shortfall strikes me as ra the r la rge.

Can the depa rtment offer any kind of estima te on what the difference is between what they have budgeted here and what will actu ally be spent in this year? Mr. GII Iesham mer: We have indicated in a previous question that we think that the current figures will be a close reflection of the situation this year. Mr. Alcock: The departm ent ma kes avai lable to centres, or at least some centres, an audit grant. Can the Min ister tell us which centres are eligible for it and how mu ch it is? Mr. Gllleshammer: Each centre gets $1 ,030 in an audit grant. Mr.

Alcock: Is that every centre that the department funds or is that just not-for-profit centres, or is tha t just funded centres? Mr. Gllleshammer : This grant is to the ful l- ti me non-pr ofit centre s.

26 18 LEG ISL ATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MAN ITOBA December 6, 19 90 Mr. Alcock: Can the Mini ster tell us how ma ny centre s would be eligible for this grant in the Province of Mani toba? Mr. Gllleshammer: There are 307 such centre s. Mr. Alcock: Mr. Deputy Chai rperson, so the total is some $300 ,000.00. When is this audit grant paid ? Mr. Gllleshammer: lt is paid when the centre is conducting its year-end audit. Mr. Alcock: Is there any estima te, I mean, is there a common year end?

Would the majority of centres have a year end that parallels the Governmen t's fiscal year, or conversely would they have a year end that comes at the end of June? Mr. Glllesha mmer : lt appear s to be varied throughout the year. Mr. Afcock: Given that the audit grant is paid to audit funds received from this Governm ent's fiscal year, the current audit gran t-1 mean, the centres are currently receiving funds under this fiscal year, so the audit gr ant that is paid relative to this year would not be paid presumably until after this fiscal year is complete? Is that a fait state ment? Mr.

Gllleshammer: lt is usually done after their year end. * (1 530) Mr. Alcock: Well, that does bring me to an area, and I was pleased actu ally to see the response tha t the Mi nister was able to give the Member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett) relative to the GST, because it is the fi rst time in this departm ent we have seen a division that has at least some understanding that there will be an impa ct and has done some preparatory exam ination of what that would be. I think the staff that did that work are to be comman ded. I would like to ask one question.

I think the Minister is quite right, the fact that there is no tax on fees and no tax on salar ies, and that means that the im pact on a day care will be relativ ely small. The proportional am ount that they will pay for papers and pencils is relatively quite small, but they will pay the full ? percent on the audit fee . That is a service tha t is provided. The question is: Is the Governmen t going to increase the audit grant to reflect that increase ? (Mrs. Linda Mclntosh, Acting Chairm an , in the Chair) Mr. c:ilileshammer: We are going to monitor the im pact of the GST to see the effect it has on day cares.

We have indicated we think it will be mi nimal. We would make no further commitment at this time. Mr. Alcock: Madam Acting Chai rperson, just so that day cares are aware of how that process is going to proceed, at the end of this fiscal year when we have a full quarter in, are day cares being asked by the departm ent to monitor their costs for this first quar ter of '91 so that we can assess the im pact? What study is being done with the centres or with the child care association that will allow you to do that? Mr.

Gllleshammer: On a quarterly basis, we get fi nancial data from the centres that is sent to the day care oflice. Mr. Alcock: Are the centres being asked to supply informa tion specific to their paymen t of this new tax, or is it just the regular quart erly monitoring? Mr. Gllleshammer: They have not been advised to do so. Mr. Alcock: Why would we not do that when we have known for some time that this is coming, and there has been an awful lot of concern expressed about the im pact that this is going to have ? We hear stateme nts of concern about it.

I mean, why would we not ask them to report if they are al ready reporting quarte rly on the impacts of this new tax on their abi lity to provide services? Mr. Gllleshammer: In their reports, we expect they will give us a comprehensi ve picture of the situat ion that exists at their centre s. Mr. Alcock: Is it satisfactory to the Min ister that we do this in sort of an ad hoc manner, if they choose to raise it? I mean, should we not be investigating this a little more closely, the Governm ent, the Finance Minister?

The Governm ent has expressed repeat edly their concerns about the im pact of this on the abi lity of the system to provide services. Would it not be a prudent measure to ask them to report specific ally on this, so we could report specific ally to the federal Government on the impact this is havi ng on services? Mr. Gllleshammer: We have indicated already that we expect the impact on the day care centres is going to be minimal. They will be forwarding the information to the day care office . The relationship that exists between the day care office and the centres is a positive one.

The centres have been part of the working group that has come forward with a number of recommendations for short term , were

December 6, 1990 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 2619 excepted by Governm ent and there is now a good relat ionship there . I do not anticipa te that the advent of the GST is going to seriously flaw that. We have indicated tha t we will be monitoring the situa tion. I am sure it will lead to some discussions with them. Mr. Alcock: Well, now I will come back to the question of the relationship between the departm ent and the centres in a moment, but I do want to tal k, just to finish off this comment on the GST.

The Min ister says you are going to be monitoring it and, yet, you have ma de no provisions to do that. My question is: Will the Min ister, given that we have not entered this first quarter, send out instructi ons to the centres that effective their first quarter report in 19 91 , which would be the first quarter in which they will be experie ncing these new costs, add a provision to the reporting that they are doing tha t asks them to report on what they have paid in this new tax ? Mr.

Gll leshammer : Tha t in formation will be encompassed in the reports that they forward, and that monitoring will be done on that basis. Mr. Alcock: I am not certain whether the Min ister has just now said somethi ng different than what he said earl ier. Is he now saying that there will be a specific identification of the amou nts of GST paid reported to the departm ent by the agencies? Mr.

Gllleshammer: What I said was they regul arly put forward the ir information on financial state men ts and we antici pate-and I believe this is what I said before- tha t any im pact on th eir ope rati ng expenses as a result of the GST will be inclu ded in the informa tion that they regularly send forward. Mr. Alcock: Madam Acting Chai rperson, given that we are ente ring very uncertain ti mes, and we do have an inflation rate in this country, and there is-who knows what is going to happen with the Gulf crisis.

There are all sorts of things that could im pact on the ope rating costs of these centre s, so your quarter-over-quarter reports will not be quite as useful on the specific issue of the GST unl ess you ask them to specifically identify that. That is all I have asked the Minister, is whether it would possible to request of the various centres tha t when they are sending in these reports-that you indica te they already prepare and send in-to ask them to specifically report on the amoun t of GST that they are paying quart er over quarte r. Mr.

Gllleshammer: If tha t inform ati on on their quarterly reports is lacking, and I do not think it will be, we will be pleased to inform them when we need more informat ion, and we will do so. Certainly there are a lot of things im pacti ng. You mentioned the Gulf crisis, and if the weather gets unseasonably cold it could be heating costs. A variety of things will impact on their operati ons, and we will be apprised of tha t when they put the ir quart erly statement in. Mr.

Alcock: Yes, well I am glad that the Min ister concurs with me about that, and this underscores the reason why we need to have this particular item identified if it is to be teased out of the overall increase in cost that centres will incur. (Mr. Marcel Laurende au, Deputy Chairman, in the Chair) I would like to spend a mom ent on the question of rela tion ship, the re la ti onship bet we en the departm ent and the centres, because the Minister did ma ke a point of mentioning it.

I think it is only appropriate when we go through different divisions in this budget we are often quit e criti cal of things, and I think that certainly in the Estimates in the last couple of years-and given all of the turmoil in the system over the last couple of years, there was a grea t deal of concer n about the rela ti onship bet ween this depar tmen t and this division in particu lar and the centres in this province . So that was something that I did spend some time inv estiga ti ng prior to these Estimates.

I had a numb er of conversations with people in the field just to get a sense of how they do fee l, particularly given the change of director, because as the Minister will recall , ther e were serious deba tes about the removal of that particu lar director. I am pleased to report that the attitude in the field is very positive, that they feel the replacemen t-i n particular a lot of the credit goes to the current, I believe it is the ADM in this division who is well regarded and feels that the transition has been smooth and that the division is continuing to offer a very high qual ity of service.

The issue is not the provision of support from the department to the centres any more. The issue is the policy that this Governm ent adopts in funding and supporting this particular division. Those are the kinds of things that I would like to ta lk a little about. I certai nly share the Minister's positive statements

2620 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA December 6, 19 90 about the work that is done within this parti cular division. Now can the Mi nister just ta lk a little bit about the fee in creases and what sort of sup port his Governmen t is ma king available to centres now? * ( 1 540) Mr. Gllleshammer: The fee per child per day is $14 .75. In some cases we fund all of that, in other cases we fun d a portion of that, and in some cases none of it. Mr. Alcock: Infant preschool and school-age fees vary, do they not, or are they all $1 4.75? Mr.

Gllleshamm er: The fee that I gave you of $1 4.75 is for children aged two to six. Infant day care is more expensive. lt is $1 7.70. The after-school care for ages six to 12 is $8.60. Mr. Alcock: Are these all fees in centres or is this the fa mily day care fee? Mr. Gllleshammer: Th is is the fee for fu nded centres, for funded homes, for unfunded centres and for unfu nded homes. Mr. Alcock: In the 51 7 new spaces that were creat ed, the Min ister read a list into the record.

Was that the list of the ones that are currently up and running, the 425, or was that the complete list of new centres that have been created as a result? Mr. GIII eshammer: No, the list I read were the ones that are up and running. There are a number of them tha t are not yet open. That was the difference between the 425 and 51 7. Mr. Alcock: Am I correct in stating that the decisions have been ma de about where those other 92 spaces are allocated, but the centres are simply not up and running yet? Mr. Gllleshammer: That is correct. Mr.

Alcock: Can the Mi nister tell us where those other 92 spaces are located then? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, there are a number that are not open yet and in fact have not been notified , because they are still in the process of getti ng their licensing and doing some other arran geme nts. I am not able to share these with you at this tim e. Mr. Alcock: Help me understand this. The Min ister said in response to an earlier question that it was anticipated tha t all 92 spaces would be open by the end of this fiscal year .

Now we are saying that where it is not possible-then he said that the decisions had been ma de about where those 92 beds would be allocated, yet three months before they are to open, we do not know where they are going to be, or we have not informed the centres? I mean, if we have not inf ormed the centres tha t are receiving those 92 beds three months before the end of this fi scal year that they have them , how can we possibly expect them to be open within the next three months? Mr. Glllesham mer: I would not want the Memb er to make this into a bigger problem than it is.

There is a qu es ti on of them co mp leting all of the requiremen ts, and some of the i's have not been dotted, and the t's have not been crossed, but it is antici pated that this will happen in coming weeks. Mr. Alcock : Are they co mp leting these requiremen ts not knowing whether they are going to get spaces? Mr. Gllleshammer: lt appears that they will get the spaces once they have comple ted the requiremen ts. They are aware of that and it is just a matte r of them completing these arrang emen ts. Mr.

Alcock : If the departm ent has made the decision, and the agencies or the centres are aware of it, why can that information not be shared? Mr. Gllleshammer: We would prefer to wait unti l they are offic ially notified that all the requiremen ts have been met. The Memb er told me the other day he was a patien t man. We are just going to have to ask him to be pati ent until we are able to officially an nounce these . Some of these others have been annou nced throughout the year. In fact, I think I attended the ribbon cutting at one of them back in September.

Once they reach tha t stage whe re they are operati onal , then an official announce ment will be made. Mr. Alcock: We anti cipa te having those announc eme nts and cutting those ribbons on 92 spaces before March 31 of this year. We have told the centres that they are going to get the spaces. We have allocated the funds for them. All they are doing is going through the legal ities now, l presume, of getting their health care licences and those various checks done.

Yet we are not willing to-despit e the fact that they mu st presumably know, to be going through this, the only way we are going to find out is if we go and ask everybody who has applied whether or not

December 6, 1990 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANIT OBA 262 1 they have been told secretly that they are going to get-1 mea n is this secret informati on? Do you send out a confidential letter, please do not tell anybody in your communi ty that you have received approval? How do you handle this? This is an interesting area. Mr. Gllleshammer: I am sur e that we could whip this into a real interesting topic that it could be secretiv e and clandes ti ne and crea te a lot of atte ntion. I am telling you tha t it is as simple as they have not completed all of the requiremen ts. We antici pate that they will.

They are working acti vely on tha t, and at that time we would be prepared to ma ke an official announc ement. I do not thi nk there is anything untoward about that. These are people who are working actively on their plans. We do not antici pate any problems, and we would ma ke that information available when it is an appropriate time to fi naliz e it. Mr. Alcock: Far be it for me to ma ke more of this than exists, heavens. I just simply would like to ask the Min ister then: Are the individuals who are involved and on the boards of these centres aware that they have been approved for these spaces? Mr.

Gllleshammer: The day cares that are pending are well aware of that, and I believe they are well aware of the items tha t they have to final ize. We do not anticipate any problem . lt is just that we are not prepared to publi cly an nounce these unti l they becom e finaliz ed. I am sure the Member understands that. * ( 15 50) Mr. Alcock: I am just kind of interested in the process. I will just ask a couple more questions, and then we will move on. So a day care centre applies for spaces.

They presumably, once the Governm ent has ma de its decision about the allocation of spaces, receive some sort of letter from the Min ister, from the departm ent, that says, subject to licensing you have been approved for x num ber of spaces. Now does this come out in a special confidential commu nique from the Min ister's office that says, please do not tell anybody about this, but if you pass your licensing requirement you will be funded for these, or does it come out that says, well, go ahead and go do all the work of getti ng licensed and if you get lice nsed, we have a nice surprise for you.

How does this message get commun icated to the centres who have made application? Mr. Gllleshammer: They actively work with staff and in a spirit of co-operation put in place the necessary informa tion . Then when that is done, it becomes official, and they are notified of such. Mr. Alcock: So at that point at which they are acting co-operatively with staff and staff are co-operating with them and we are havi ng this sort of mutually satisfying exercise, are they aware that they got these spaces? Mr.

Gllleshammer: I can tell the Member that the people involved, I think, are proceeding with some degree of confidence and competence to get the job done, and we antici pate that these will be completed in the not too distant futu re. Mr. Alcock: Would it be fair to say that the only reason for not releasing the information is so the Min iste r can have the joy of sending out an acti on-orie nted press relea se and cut ting yet another ribbon as opposed to shari ng tha t information with the commu nity at the appropriate ti me? Mr.

Gllleshammer: No, I think it is more tha n that . lt is out of respect for these groups that want to plan some sort of opening and apprise their memb ership of where they are at with the plans and how the process is coming. I thi nk that they should have that opportunity. Mr. Alcock: But the Min ister said they al ready knew before they applied for licensi ng. Mr. Gllleshammer: I am ta lking of the wider communi ty that ma y not be closely in tune with the comings and goings and plans of the day care people. Mr. Alcock: Far be it for me to interfere with the Minister's desire for secrecy.

Perhaps he could tell us, these 92 spaces then, how ma ny of these secret centres will this create this year? Mr. Gllleshammer: None. These will be public centres. Mr. Alcock: How many yet to be announ ced public centres will be created by ap portioning these 92 spaces? Are they sim ply additi ons to existing centres, or will there be new free-stand ing centres created as a result of this decision of the Minister to someday announce 92 new spaces? Mr. Gllleshammer: There are five centres involved.

2622 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITO BA December 6, 19 90 Mr. Alcock: Those fiv e centres, are any of these additions to existing centres or are these fiv e new centres? Mr. Gllleshammer: Three of them are new. Mr. AI cock: Of these fiv e centres that are involved, let us start with the three new ones. Are these three new infant centres, preschool centres or school-age centres? Mr. Gllleshammer: They are a combina tion of infant and preschool. Mr.

Alcock: Of the 51 7 new spaces that are created this year, 92 yet to be create d, 425 that hav&-but of the total , can the Minister tell us how they are proportioned between the City of Winnipeg and the rural areas? What proportion of those 51 7 would be located in the city versus those outs ide of the City of Winni peg? Let us use the Perim eter as an examp le, with the exception of the Member for St . Norbert's (Mr. Laurendeau) area which goes slightly south of the Peri meter. Mr. Gllleshammer : I think they would bear a strong resemblance to the figures I read into the record about 45 min utes ago. Mr.

Alcock: Given that was in response to another Mem ber's question, and I have the right to ask the question, perhaps the Minister could read it into the record agai n. Mr. Gllleshammer: Two hundred and eight of the spaces are in Winnipeg. Those would be in centre s. There would be 77 spaces in rural Man itoba that are centres. Then there are the fam ily day care homes, and 56 of those spaces were in Winnipeg. The rema ini ng 84 are in rural Ma nitoba. Mr. Alcock: I wonder if we mi ght just talk a little bit about workplace day care .

I understand the Min ister has a new program that is going to provide some incen tives for workplace day care , capital grants being one component of that? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, there is up to $75,000 per workplace centre . Mr. Alcock: Thes e ar e capital gr ants , as I understand it, so if a company comes with a desire to create a centre in their workplace, they can receive up to $75,000 in cash. Are these corn panies not also entitled to write-offs agai nst their corporate income tax for the creation of such centres? • (1 600) Mr.

Gllleshammer: I can tell the Member that the amount of money that we give to the workplace day care , the cheque is written to the centre , which is incorporated as non- profit. I suspect in the financial dealings that the company has that there may be some method whereby they can write off the use of space or whatever. We do not have that inform ation here. That is perhaps informa tion tha t you could ask the Minister of Finance (Mr. Mannes

s) or we could try and get it for him . Mr. Alcock: No, that is okay. I apprecia te the Min iste r's offer to get that, but I have indeed discussed this with the Mi nister of Finance, and we in fact are going to be discussing it agai n. I do have some questions on it though. First, with regard to these 51 7 spaces, are any of them in workplace day car es? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, there were two of them. The Panda Bear is a Burns employees' day care with 40 spaces. The Bumper Crop day care , I believe, is the one at the Canadian Wheat Board. Mr.

Alcock: Did both of these businesses, the Wheat Board and Burns, receive the $75,000 capital grant? Mr. Glllesham mer: The day care centre received the grant. Mr. Alco ck: I do not mean to in tenti onally diff erentia te. I under stand that these are both priv ate , not-for-p rofit centr es, in corp orated separately but suppo rted by the corporations that they are located within.

I think that when you look at the tax imp lications, you will find that the businesses are able to write off agains t their corporate tax for the renova tions that they unde rtake and any corporate support that they offer to the centres. Then as incorporated not-for-profit centres, would these spaces-n ow we said there were 40 for the Panda Bear. Was 40 the correct numb er? Mr. Gllleshammer: There were 40 at each of the two mentioned. Mr.

Alcock: As incorporated not-for-profit centres, are each of them then also eligible for the mai nte nance grants , the salar y enha ncemen t grants and the audit grants , et cetera, et cetera? Mr. Gllleshammer: That is correct. Mr. Alcock: They are all available and presumably the start-up grants also. Can the Min ister tell us whether or not these two corporate-let us use

December 6, 1990 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 2623 "these." The policy I suspect is common. Both of these corporati ons provide fi nancial support to these centres? Mr. Gllleshammer: I th ink the two we are referencing, one of them gets space provided, and there is some fi nancial contri bution by one of them as well. Mr. Alcock: But both of them provide space? Mr. Gllleshammer: I am told just the one. Mr. Alcock: That is 80 of the 51 7 spaces. We know that five centres are sharing in the 92 that are yet unal located, but we will be informed of at some point, three of which are new centres.

How ma ny new centres were created this year out of that total allocati on of 51 7? Mr. Gllleshammer: There would be a total of 12 . Mr. Alcock: The Governm ent is prepared to offer $75 ,000 capital gr ants to the two wit hin corporations. Do the other 1 0 receive $75,000 capital grants? Mr. Gllleshammer: No. Mr. Alcock: Why is that? Mr. Gllleshammer: This is a new concept which is just coming onto the scene. The workplace day cares have received a fa ir amoun t of favourable comment, both from emp loyers and employees.

As a result of some of the thinking that went into thi s, there was a major grant awarded to them. lt would seem to be a positive new direction for day care in the province. Mr. Alcock: Leavi ng aside the discussion about this positive new direction, the question is simple. We' are prepared to give companies who have the abil ity to write off their costs incur red in setting up a day care a $75,000 capit al grant. Yet we do not seem to be prepared to offer tha t same support to a not-for-profit group tha t opens a day care centre in a communi ty centre , in a chur ch basemen t or wherever. Why not? Mr.

Gllleshammer: I would mention the other side of the coin to the Honourable Memb er that non-profit day cares are able to access Commu nity Places grants up to $75,000 .00. I believe some of them have gone that direction. Mr. Alcock: But I thought the Min ister told me a little while ago that both these centres were incorporated non-pr ofits. Mr. Gllleshammer: These two centres that we have referenced are not able to access the Commun ity Places program . Mr.

AI cock: Did the Min ister not say a few moments ago that these centr es, these workplace day centres, specifically the Bumper Crop and Panda Bear, wer e in corporated not-for-p rofits , were separate entiti es? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, I said that, but they have been sponsored by the company. Mr. Alcock: They are specifica lly excluded under the terms of a Comm un ity Places grant from accessing Commu nity Places fun ds despite the fact that they are incorporated non-pr ofits? Mr. Gllleshammer: That is my understan ding. We would be prepared to check into that furt her. Mr.

Alcock: I would ask the Min ister to do exactly that. I read the criteria for the Commun ity Places grants . I do not recall an exclusion for not-for-profit company day care s. If the Minister would undert ake to check that , that would be usefu l, and we can come back to that when that information is availab le. The rati onale tha t we have on the tab le is that not-for-profit day care centres are able to access Commu nity Pla ces grants, ther efore they do not require the $75,000 capital grants .

How ma ny of the- well, 12 minus two--1 0 new centres that were being created ha ve been awarded $75 ,000 Commu nity Places grants ? Mr. Gl llesha mmer : We do no t ha ve that informati on. You would have to get that from the Minister responsible. Mr. AI cock: I thought the Min ister said earlier that these day care centres submitted quarterly fi nancial reports to the departm ent. Is this information not included in thE�-t? * (1 61 0) Mr. Gllleshammer: We will check to see if our financial data includes information on Communit y Places grants . Mr.

Alcock: We have had two statements that are a little bit contrad ictory. lt may just be lack of informa tion. When we asked the Min ister about the giving of $75,000 capital grants to two companies, he went to some length to point out that these grants were not given to the companies. They were given to incorporated not-for-profit centres operating with

2624 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA December 6, 1990 the sup port or unde r the sponsorship of the companies. Nonethe less , if a com pany sponso rs a not-for-profit day care , it autom atica lly receives a $75,000 capital grant , but if you are a church group or a community group sponsoring a day care , you do not automat ically receive a Community Places grant. You have to go through the appli cati on process and receive it.

Is that not the case, or is there an agreement between this departm ent and the Depart ment of Culture, Heritage, which I believe is the lead department on that, that then makes avai lable these grants ? Mr. Gllleshammer: The workpla ce day car e providers have to apply for the grant. Sim ilarly any commu nity group who is accessing a Commun ity Places grant has to fi ll out an applic at ion. In both cases, it probably results in increased numb ers of day care spaces and enhanced spaces throughout the province whereby day care is provided. Mr.

AI cock : Let us diffe renti ate- when one is applying for a Communi ty Pla ces grant, you apply as one of a great many groups. lt is not lim ited-the Communi ty Places grant program is not just a day care program. A great many groups can apply for support under Communit y Places. Can other groups apply under this special $75,000 capital grant program- that is question one-or is it on ly workplaces that are sponsoring day cares that can apply to this program? Mr. Gllleshammer: The $75,000 that we speak of in refe rence to Panda Bear and Bumper Crop day care comes under workplace day care .

I would point out that the previous Minister had comm issioned a report that was brought in by the Man itoba Child Care Task Force, and their recommen dation was that we provide incentives so that the workplace day cares could be provided. Because of the reasons that I men tioned before, it appear s to be a very sensible way of delivering day care services in the province . There are benefits for the em ployer. The re are benef its to the em ployee.

As a result of that, this type of ince ntive was put in there , and from our early reports it appears that it is meeting with favour with both the em ployer and the em ployee. At this point in time we are very pleased with it. Mr. Alcock: I suspect all of that to be exactly the case. lt was indeed a recomme ndation of the task force. lt is indeed a progressive way to go, and it has been taken up in the instance that the Min ister reports now by two places. Nobody is arguing with the valid ity or the value of that.

When I asked the Min ister the simple question about, are you prepared to give $75,000 cash grants to businesses to sponsor day cares, and said, why are you not prepared to give those same grants to not-for-profits who sponsor day cares, the Min ister's re sponse is, they can go to Com muni ty Places--except the Commu nity Places gran ts are a pool of capital that is available to a great ma ny organizati ons, not ju st day cares as in the workplace day care incentiv e program . lt is not an automatic $75,000.00. Seventy-five thousand dollars is the maxim um ma de avai lable under the Com munit y Places program .

These are two things that are not anal ogous at all. Have there been appl ications for the $75,000 capital grant under the workplace day care ince ntive program that have been turned down? Mr. Gllleshammer: Not at this point. Just going back to the Community Pla ces, there are day cares that do not require additional funding and as a result will not apply to Commu nity Plac es, or they may only requir e a small porti on of that. Certainly they compete with other Communi ty Pla ces within the greate r communi ty.

The Commu nity Places grants are a broad grant that is used for the benefit of commun ities, whether it is curli ng rinks or halls or in some cases there is some funding put in place for day care centres. You know, if the Mem ber is suggesting that they all apply for $75,000, I would tell him that a lot of those day care centres do not require that. They are up and running and successful and are looking after the ir own needs. By and large, the Commu nity Places grants have been accessed for small renovations and small changes that have to be ma de.

They have to contribute an equal amount to access Communit y Places grants. I think, getting back to the workplace day care, this is a new area that we are entering and a new era. From the early reports this has been very successful, and it is in complianc e with one of the recommendat ions, as I indicated , from the Child Care Task Force, and it a ppears to be something that has been very successful. Mr. Alcock: The two new centres that are currently in place under this program, have both applied for

December 6, 19 90 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 2625 the grants and both received the $75,000 capital grants ? Mr. Gllleshammer: That is correct. Mr. Alcock: What com mitmen ts do the companies have to ma ke when they are applying for these? Mr. Gllleshammer : The commitmen t that is made by the employer is that 50 percent of the spaces be made av ai lable for the children of the emp loyees of the company. Mr. Alcock: I am sorry.

When a company comes to apply for spaces and for the $75,000 capital grant they have to agree that 50 percent of the spaces wit hin tha t ce ntre will be made av ailable for em ployees of the company. Is that it? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, for the children of the em ployees of the company. Mr. Alcock: Is this the only commitment they have to ma ke? Mr.

Gllleshammer: Yes, that is the commitment they ma ke. lt is based on the fact that we are ap proached both by the emplo yees and the em ployer to put in place the workplace day care , that we proceed with it and their willin gness to go ahead with the day care program . • (1 620) Mr. Alcock: Do these funds , these $75,000 capital grants, come th rough the Gran ts line tha t is referenced on page 95 of the- Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes. Mr. Alcock: Yet when we asked for a grants list-1 guess it is concluded in the day care centres and homes. ' Mr. Gllleshammer: That is correct. Mr.

Alcock: When a not-for-profit centre , other than the two workplace centres, applies for Communit y Pl aces grants, they hav e to apply to anoth er departm ent, and tha t is funded through a different division? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, the Communi ty Places gr ants are par t of the Culture , Herit age and Recreation Department. Mr. Alcock: So when a workplace day care , when a company applies to create one of these day care s, are they given a set of forms they have to fill in to make this applic ati on? Are there a number of criteria they have to

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-1-40
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 1st hansardpdf 40.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	3c48134379a3ad83f59c32f791ba76570afbc7ea

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