PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. FRIDAY, MAY 20, 1977

tfay 20, 1977 Tape no. 3063 Page 1 - ms The House met at 10:00 A.M. r·!r. Speaker in the Chair. MR • SPEAKER : Order, please: NOTICES OF MOTION. NR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Justice. ¥R. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the hon. Minister of Consumer Affairs and Environment, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Mortgage Brokers Act." MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Hinister of Municipal Affairs. MR .. DINN: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The City Of St. John's Act." MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. ~dnister of Social Services. MR. BH.ETI: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow intrt>duce a bill, "Pn Act To Amend The Adoption of Children Act, 1972." ORAL QUESTIONS : l'l'R. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. }1R. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, if I can get the Minister of Transportation from his genuflecting position before the Premier and back to his seat, I have a question for him, and the question is - perhaps the minister could bring us up to date on the transportation enquiry that is allegedly undenvay in the Province . We have heard some statements by the ~airman, Dr.

Sullivan. Just where are we now on that enquiry- has it started? Hhere is it? - and particularly in view of reports which have been denied by Dr. Sullivan that they ? are looking at the possibility of the close down of the CNR. MR.. SPEA...T(ER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communic~ons. ~f'R. }{OR GA.~ : ¥r. Speaker, the Commission of Enauiry , I am assuming, is down to work. I am not too sure myself exactly what they have been doing over recent ~.reeks, but I am assuming thev are analyzing the reports that have already been carried out in the Province on transportation and studies carried out.

~{ ay 20 , 1977 Tape no. 3063 Page 2 - ms }fr. Morgan. The terms under which the enquiry was set up, both levels of government, the federal and provincial, it was agreed ....,; that the commission complete its work by the end of 1977.. So I •sincerely hope that they are down to work, and will carry on witP their work in the next number of weeks and month so as we can meet that deadline to have their work completed and a report made by the end of 1977. We do not want to see any delay on the report any later than that period. MR. NOLAN: A supplementary, ~r. Speaker. MR. S:PEAKEF : A supplementary. MR.

NOLAN: I wonder if the minister is in a position to inform the House of what input the Province will have

May 20, 1977 Tape 3064 PK - 1 Mr. Nolan: in any public enquiries that will be held. I mean,what is the position of the government at this moment on transportation in the Province? Do you have a brief that you will be presenting~ and if so, are you prepared to table it in this House for public discussion? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, we will be submitting what I would consider to be a major position or a brief to that Transportation Commission of Enquiry realizing the importance of the enquiry itself.

It encompasses all modes of transport in the Province, not just the operations of Q~R, in fact all modes including air, road, rail. So it is very important to us as a Province, and we will be submitting a major brief, what I would consider to be a major brief to that Commission. Now whether or not we will be tabling or discussing it in the House of Assembly I cannot give assurances on that, based on the fact I am not at all at this time sure of the exact date we will be making a brief to the Commission.

But, of course, we will be submitting a brief at a public hearing and we will be realizing that the Commission will be holding public hearings throughout the Province. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the han. the Premier seems to have gotten himself in hot water with the Status of Women and various other people in the Province in connection with a list that is alleged to have been supplied to the hon. Premier containing the names of over a hundred women who could serve in unofficial capacities on various government agencies and bodies and Crown corporations and so on.

And the Premier left the impression that there were no females, no women available for this kind of work. Perhaps the Premier would like to clear that up and straighten the matter out. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

May 20, 1977 Tape 3064 PK - 2 PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, gladly. The situation is yes, the Status of Women, I think, some several months ago sent in a list of women who would be suitable in various capacities to serve on various boards. There have been very few appoin~en~ made since that time to any boards as such. And I would very much like to clear up the fact that not just the women who were on that list but I assume a great many others could be capable of serving on boards.

I guess traditionally all of us have been negligent in recognizing the fact that women could serve as well, and in some cases probably a ~eat deal more efficiently and beneficially than men. AN HON. MEMBER: lfuo was the bank treasurer - PREMIER MOORES: Yes, I think, Mr. Earle MacLaughlin got into a little trouble over that, misinterpreted remarks,and I suggest, Sir,there are groups that can misinterpret remarks- and I am not just talking about the Status of Women now- very frequently in our society today.

But I would say that without any question government and others have a very real obligation to recognize the _emergence of the Women's Movement and women playing a full role in society, and a full role is no longer just the housewife's role, but the role that they want to play and that is to create the society they want their children to live in. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR.

NEARY: I would assume then from the hon. the Premier's answer that it is a part of the conventional wisdom of the administration, part of the policy of the administration to appoint females, to give them equal status with men,, made by the government. in future appointment that will be MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER HOORES : The answer is yes, Xr. Speaker. It is t~e opposite,I suppose, to the lifeboat philosophy that there will be women and men first and children second.

May 20, 1977 Tape 3064 PK - 3 MR. NOLfu~: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. ~~. NOLA1~: Mr. Speaker, on the same subject, and again to the hon. the Premier. Has the Premier as the Chief Administra~ of this Province and head of the government issued orders to those who are in a position to appoint on boards and so on, not necessarily special treatment for women, but at least equal treatment, I mean, we have got to have something on paper to those in power? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: These appointments are made by the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council, Mr. Speaker.

And therefore they are reviewed by all them members who are hearing me now and have heard me before. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. member for Baie Verte-White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Labour and ~anpower, I guess is the new title~is it? I wonder if the minister could tell us what is happening now with regards to the industrial enquiry that was set up to look into activities at IOCC in Labrador some months ago? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr.

Speaker, Judge Rupert Bartlett's enquiry I guess six weeks - a month ago held hearings in Labrador City. The

May 20,1977 Tape 3065 AH-1 HR. ROUSSEAU: hearings are both private and public. I know that he had some hearings here this past week in St. John's and he is returning to Labrador City again~sometime,I think~ ~vith the next fe;.; days, to again conduct hearings.So hearings are ongoing and I presume that, as I suggested before - and only have this as a rough estimate, that we would hope .that I he would be completed by next month and by the mid or the end of the summer we will have a report from him. MR. RIDEOUT: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR.

RIDEOUT : Could the minister tell the House how many hearings this commission has held in Labrador( MR. SPEAKER : The hou.minister. ~ MR. ROUSSEAU: You know,I could not tell the hon. member that. I know there is one, he has been up there for a week, I believe it was and then he came down here. Now I know of one hearing he had - I do not know how many more he had down here. I know he is going back again and appointments are made to appear at the hearings by writing a legal counsel of the commission and it is properly advertised in the newspapers as well.

I have asked Judge Bartlett because there are certain people obviously who do not want to appear at public hearings so he is also conducting private hearings;and I do not know which private hearings have been requested and I do not know how many he has held. But I think it was a week he was there holding public hearings. In the meantime,or subsequent to or after that he may have held a number of private hearings as well which is his intention. MR.. RIDEOUT : MR. SPEl~.KER: MR. RIDEOUT : A supplementary. A supplementary.

Is the minister expecting to have any sort of interim report from this commission before they - you know,it could take months to submit the final analysis of what they

Hay 20,1977 Tape 3065 AH-2 MR. RIDEOUT: have. Is the minister expecting or has he requested that there be an interim report in a certain frame presented to himself? MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. HR. ROUSSEAU: No I have not, Mr. Speaker, mainly because I think the issue is rather a large one and I would want Judge Bartlett,as he suggested,to possibly look into the constitutionality of the work permit system and that may take some time. He may be doing that concurrently or after.

I think that in certain respects the announcement of the inquiry and subsequent hearings and that have made things a little different from certain companies 1 viewpoints up there so it is already significant in ·that way.

But I would not want to hurry Judge Bartlett because I think the problem that arises there in Labrador West, it is not only Labrador West, indeed it is all of Labrador and parts of the Island part of the Province where we have the same type of problem, and I would want him to d~ a good job, I do not want to bring something in - and I am prepared to take full and complete responsibility since it is my district for the length of it but I think it is that important that I would want a full comprehensive 1 complete report and I would also want him to look into the constitutionality of the work permit system. :HR.

SPEAKER: Hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN~ A question for the Minister of Transportation and Communications. I understand that quite a number of telegrams have been forwarded to the minister, I believe, •from communities such as Ladle Cove and so on and I b~lieve in reference to paving required they have raised objections apparently because they have stated,I believe, in the press that there has been no response from the minister.

May 20,1977 Tape 3065 AH-3 MR. NOLA.."l": I would like to ask the minister, one, Is he aware of t~e requests, did he receive them~ and why has there been no response to date to the people concerned? - ~ HR.. SPEA..T<ER: Ron. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR.. MORGA.i.'i : Mr.

Speaker, over the past four days telegrams have been coming in to my office in a continuous stream, I notice that it seems to. be a different type of protest with regards to road conditions throughout the Province and different type of requesting - a means of requesting pavement because, for example, Burgeo, I have received sixty-six telegrams from Burgeo over the last three or four days with regards to a problem in connection with a grader.

And in the Aspen Cove­ Ladle Cove I have received fifty telegrams from individual residents, some of them is just one person who has sent in a telegram, other cases two people signing,requesting pavement of the roads in the communities of Ladle Cove-Aspen Cove. And because the telegrams have been coming in,almost every hour there is a telegram coming in, I held back a reply until I felt the telegrams were all in. Anyway, Mr.

Speaker, in reply to the han. gentleman's question, the reply ~rill be sent today to the Aspen Cove- Ladle Cove people and in fact the people from Burgeo as well indicating the position of the aepartment with regards to their request. HR. ~OLAN: A supplementary, Ur. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. ~1R. NOLA.."l": I am wondering if the minister is in a position on this paving and so on - we have the budget and most people in

May 20, 1977 Tape No. 3066 NM- 1 ~. NOLAN: most areas do not knor,r what roads are going to ~e upgraC.ed, do not kno~,7 <lhat roads are going to be paved, Hhat roads they 11re going to use, \·Jhatever solution one uses to kee p dust dor.Jr.. this - ~ Sumner and so on. I mean,when is the minister going to lay unon the table of the House, and therefore for the press~ exactly what the_programmes are for this year and what the people can expect from this government? ~1R. SPEAKER: The han. }finister of Transportation and Ccmmunciations. ~·1R. MORGAN: Well, ~'!r.

Speaker, in reply to that question, it \.ras my intention of course when my estiQates are called before the House, I 1v-hich I am hoping T.•Till be called now upon the completion of my colleague·' s estimates, the ~nister of i'Iunicipal Affairs and Housing, to outline to the House of Assembly the position with regards to requests received, ~~d petitions, etc. from various points around the Province.

These people will be officially informed by the de~artment, shortly after the estimates are approved by the House of Asse~bly, exactly what their situation is with regards to their requests for upgrading or paving of roads.

A number of the places requesting roads and upgrading and paving, decisions will not be made for maybe until the month of June because in many areas it needs the attention of the engineers from the deoartment to investigate the request and in fact it is my intention to carry on like I did last year, to travel out to these areas and see the Province first-hand and to be able to assess the situation accompanied by the officials Hith regards to the needs and make a decision based on the needs of the area and to get the projects moving hopefully by the end of June. MR. NOIA\f: A supplementary, Mr.

Speaker. .- - '1R • SPE.A.KER : A suPplementary, the original auestioner. ~. ~10LA.N: Just one final suople!CJ.entary, ~· !r. Sneaker, and it is this; the minister is quite ai.:are of the tremendous traffic congestion, particularly

~ay 20, 1977 Tape no. 3066 ~-lR. NOLAN: with the slightest bit of snow, on the Trans-Canada, I am thinking about the KeP~ount Poad area, from the overpass ~N- 2 in for examnle you can see the problem any morning or any afternoon~ at five o'clock. So there is a real problem, It is obvious it needs to be v.ridened to four lanes,and also the Topsail Highway which was originally built for the horse and buggy age and other than the paving there has been no substantial amount of work done on it to take the heavy load that it is carrying now. Hhat plans does the minister have for the areas referred to? ~.

SPE~KER: The han. Minister of Transportation and Communications, MR. MORGAN: ~~ell, Mr. Speaker, my colleagues, the members of the House of Assembly from St. John!s has brought this to my attention on a number of occasions, and particularly the Kenmount Road. Of course the Kenmount Road is really part of the Trans-Canada Highway and it is included in the prog~amme we now have before the Federal Cabinet. The Topsail Road has been brought to my attention a number of time by my colleague from the Mount Pearl area, regarding the need for improvements there. $. NOLAI.'\1': And the member for Conception Bay South.

MR. :10RGAN : Conception Bay South as r,.Jell- the han, gentleman who asked the question as well has brought this to my attention. The situation there, Mr. Speaker, is the same as many other parts of the Province. The people concerned ~vill be informed shortly after the estimates are anproved to the House of Assembly what they can exnect to get done this year. ~. SIMMONS: A supplementary. ~. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir. [~,. SI¥MONS: The minister made reference to the number of telegrams ·.~ --:.- he is getting from Burgee.

In the case of Bur,geo of cour~P i.t is <> f:d .rly s:Luple reauest, na:nely that the <srader be left there. I ·r.,rould not think it would require much decision in terms of involving the estimates. It is a straight decision to leave it there or not. I wonder,first of all,would the ~inister indicate if he has made a

~-fay 20, 1977 Tape No. 3066 Ni1 - 3 ~. S I~·fONS : decision on that and what the decision is. And also if he could indicate, and this is related, ''hy he needs a full-time foreman in Burgeo to supervise the activities of one grader operator?

There is a fair amount of local talk about the obvious ~.,raste of money, that one. guy sits in the shed and the other fellow reports to him once a day,and as a suggestion, as part of my question really, the minister might consider leaving the grader operator there even if he worked under the supervision of the local people, even attach him to the town council for example. -~ ~. SPEJL~ER: The han. Minister of Transportation and Communications. ~-fR. MORGA._~: Well, Mr. Speaker, if the hon. gentleman ~,;ho represents Burgeo, or who asked the question, if he does not want a foreman in the Burgeo area, Mr.

Speaker, I will place him over in LaPoile somewhere or some other part of the Province, gladly to.If the han. gentleman feels we are r..7asting money in Burgee He will glady remove the gentleman from the area. But, Mr. Speaker, it is a very simple request and I ~vas sort of surprised that the · request came in the form of sixty-six telegrams, sixty-six telegrams on a rather minor request from the one community, requesting that the grader remain in the Town of Burgeo.

Hhereas what it would have meant, a request from the elected body in the area, the town council, one simple request could have gotten a reply from me. But instead they decided to send sixty-six telgrams from residents in the area. So, Mr. Speaker, in reply to the han. gentleman's question, reply to these telegrams will be sent today to the residents but '\·le are not going to ~vaste the taxnayers' money in replying to each individual telegr~. We are gain~ to reply by form of letter,\·Jhich is a more cheaper form of coi!II'lunications and inform the residents that the - Hell, ~-1r.

Snea~<er, first of all because the question and request came from the residents, I do not feel I >vill be informin15 the House of Assembly until the residents are informed officially by me.

May 20, 1977 Tape no. 3067 Page 1 - ms }ofF-. SPEAKER: I recognize the hon. gentleman for Burgeo -Bay d'Espoir for a supplementRry,and then the han. member for LaPoile. Before the hon. gentleman commences his question, I would welcome to the House of Assembly on behalf of hon. members, Judge John ~urphy, Supreme Advocate of the Knights of Columbus,from New Haven, Connecticut. SO~ RON . ¥-E'HBE"'?_S : ~R. SPEA.._'I{ER: Hear, hear! The hon. Premier. PRE~'ITER ~OORES: Mr. Speaker, if I could have permission as well at this time to congratulate the Knights of Columbus on their 59th.

State Convention which is being held here in the city this weekend and also -you have already done it for members of the House, and I know members of the Opposition would like to be associated with it - on behalf of the government~ --- I just met Judge J'.~urphy downstairs, Supreme Advocate of the Knights of Columbus 1and indeed it is a great pleasure, Sir, and through you to welcome him from the government~ -,from this side of the House. SOME RON . }!EJv!BE'~'S : :MR. SPEAKER : ~. NOLAN: Hear, hear! The han. member for Conception Bay South. ~r.

Speaker, we certainly join with the han. ~remier in welcoming this distinguished gentleman to our shores for the State Convention, and of course ~ve know the contribution of the Knights of Columbus in this Province and in many parts of the world.

And it is a real joy for us to see that he is visiting with us, and I hope that in addition to his official duties at the State Convention, where I have no doubt he will be kept very, very busy, that the officials here on the local level will see that he · gets a little time off to visit the various parts of the Province, particularly the area in ~vhich he may have the time to travel so that he can have an opportunity to meet a lot of t he people or as many as possible and get an opportunity to enjoy some of the well-known Newfoundland hospitality. However, I knmv when he is in the hands of the Knights

May 20, 1977 Tape no 3067 Page 2 - - ms Mr. ~alan. ~ here in the Province, he is going to be the recipient of that in large order so we wish him well and a great ' welcome. SO}lE RON. ME'!-'IBE"RS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: I previously recognized the hen. gentleman for Burega - Bay d'Espoir,unless some other han member is rising in connection with the matter just transpiring. The han. member for Burgee -Bay d'Espoir, followed by the han. member for LaPoile. MR.

SU~ONS: I was about to put a further supplementary to the Minister of Transportation.· The sixty-six telegrams are perh~ indicative of the fact that the people of Burgeo realize that the minister needs a sledge ··hammer approach very often. It is a simple request, as he has indicated himself. I "ronder would he indicate whether a decision has been made to leave the grader there and if so, you know, whether it has been made to leave it~or not, to leave it, and if so what the decision is? H:R. SPE.A..KER: The hon. minister. MP .• MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, the people who made representations to my department are all resic1en ts of the to~vn of Burgee and because I have received no representation from the hon. gentleman ~vho represents Burgee, the decision made by the department will be relayed today to the people making representations. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary. }~. NEARY: A supplementary. :MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. HR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the - }-finister of Transportation and Communications, Sir, on a very serious matter indeed, Sir.

I ..,_,onder if the minister could clear up the confusion that has arisen in connection with Dr. Selikoff's report of asbestos dust on the Baie Verte road? Has the minister received

May 20, 1977 Tape no. 3067 Page 3 - ms Mr. Nearv. a report as yet? If not, could the minister indicate if he has asked the Leader of the Opposition, Who held a press conference yesterday to announce the results of the report, ·if the ministe~ has asked the Leader of the Opposit .ion for a copy of the re~ort ,or have politics crept into this very serious matter? · MR. SPEAKER: The han. minister. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, it was with astonishment and so~what shock last night when I turned on the local media, electronic media, and I found the persons of the Leader of the Opposition and his colleague, the member for Baie Ve·rte - White Bay (Mr. F.ideout) calling a press conference to announce that they have received the reports from Dr. Selikoff, and tl;lat they were demanding that the government take action inmtediately. So I was of the assumption then that the report had probably arrived at my office in the afternoon while I was sitting in the House, and I was not made aware of it.

~1ay 20, 1977 Tape ~To. 3068 ~"R. ~ORGAN: And I r,1as further shocked this morning, Hr, Speaker, ~vhen I checked the office and all the officials, nothing has arrived from Dr. Selikoff, either by telephone conversation, by telegram, by letter or by report. I >vas further astonished when I contacted my colleague, the Minister of Health, who I thought m~rbe would have been the man responsible more directly than I am, and checking with my colleague he has also not received any correspondence. The only correspondence I have seen from Dr.

Selikoff is addressed to the member for the House of Assembly from the Baie Verte area, Hr. Tom Rideout,and that Has dated ~ay 2nd. from Dr. Selikoff and in that letter he reads, I ~o1ill quote part of the letter, Mr.

Speaker, if I ~ay~ "It is clear that a significant amount of _ rcrystaltile asbestos contamination of the ambient air is possible," and I reneat, "is possible as a result of the use of asbestos content crushed rock as road surfacing Ln the area," Now that is the only part of that letter ~-Thich indicates there is a possible contamination of the air by means of using the abestos dust as a road surface dust. And, ~1r. Speaker, that is the only piece of correspondence I have seen from Dr. Selikoff. MR. H. COLLINS: Did you get that from Dr. Selikoff. :-~r.

Speaker, in reply to my colleague, that state."ll~nt ~vas sent to the member of the Onposition HR. SL'1MONS: That is in the ~1R. HO'?-.GAN: - Hithout even a copy to the ~1inisters of the Cro~m. ~'R. Sr".:'~ONS: That is allmved, is it not? ':-!ithout even a copy to the goverr,_ment of the C:ay. It i~ in t:ho:> 1 1 .::::n.r. So. -:1r. Soeaker, in ~enlv to the hon. e:entlen.:m's question, it is verv annoying to me becauEe if Dr. Selikoff - SOME RON. ~~ERS: Oh, oh!

~~~ay 20, 1977 Tape No. 3068 NM- 2 ~fR. ~ORGA ... "': Hr. Speaker, if I could have order. '1P .• SPE .. AKEF.: Order, please! Order, please! The hen. minister is finding difficulty in speaking and I would ask han. members not to interrupt him. MR. HORGAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, maybe I should not make the charge that it seems that somebody is playing politics but I guess it has to be said,because if Dr. Selikoff, and I would say again if, if he is genuinely concerned with the health of the people living in the Bay Verte area, which we are as a government, surely Dr.

Selikoff could find time to make an official report to the government of the day, either to my colleague, the Minister of Health,or myself responsible for roads, so as we could get analyze the report from Dr. Selikoff, analyze his recommendations to government and take possible action. But to date nothing official has been sent to government from Dr, Selikoff. ~1R. NEARY: A supplementary question, Yr. Speaker. ~. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: There was a need. MR. MORGAN: It is facts. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, there seems to be an unfortunate breakdown in communications here, Sir, and I do not believe that this matter should be the subject of one-upmanship. Is the minister saying that the minister has no documentation, no results of the study or the research that has been done by Dr. Selikoff, apart from what my han. friend from Baie Verte has sent to the minister? If so, in view of the seriousness of this situation, and obviously the minister cannot rely on Dr.

Selikoff to get the information, for what reason I do not know, would the minister and the Minister of Health ~ndertake to do their own study, because this is a very serious matter, \vhere ueonle's health is involved, Hhere you have a health hazard, to do their own study, independent of the Selikoff thing v1hich seems to have entered into the realm of politics, and clear this matter up at an early a date as oossible?

~.fu.y 20' 1977 Tape ~o. 3068 NM- 3 XR. SPEAKER: ~ffi.. ~ORGA.""r: The hon. ~~nister of Transporation and Communications. :~r. Speaker, in reply to that quest ion, this administration's concern ,.,as recognized and I think portrayed last Fall Hhen Dr.

Selikoff made a statement to the media to the extent that ha felt that there was a possible hazard in the area and the Department of Transnortation acd Communications through the engineering staff, arranged to take samples from two different, well more than t\·10 but at least t'tvo different roads, on a number of locations on the t1vo roads concerned, samples of dust. ~.J'e have had these samples of dust analyzed to the best expertise possible in this Province, at the university here in St.

John's, by means of a microscan systen, scanning the asbestos dust, or road dust, the particles of the dust, etc, and no conclusive evidence ..;v-as found from these tests to determine the possibility of asbestos dust being in the road dust. Now that is the best possible expertise we could find in this Province. So we are depending on a renowned and well-known research analyst in this field- Dr. 8elil<off, he is noted in this field - we are depending on his advice and his report and his recommendations to gover~~ent indicating what the problem is in Baie Verte. So I again repeat, I sincerely hope Dr.

Selikoff will get the report to government as soon as J?Ossible. ~ • SPEA...'<ER: The hon. member for T'ivillingate, supplementary. ~~. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if it has occurred to the minister that Dr. Selikoff, who as he says

May 20, 1977 Tape 3069 PK - 1 Mr. Smallwood: is a distinguished scientist, looks upon any member of the House,and particularly the member for that particular constituency~ as one in the same in that he does not draw any particular · ~ distinction between government and opposition, and that in handing the report to th~ member for the district he was not intending any discourtesy to the government, it could be done in good-natured ignorance, a great scientist that he is or though he is. Does the minister feel that this is a deliberate snub by this distinguished scientist? Surely not. MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORGAN: No, Mr. Speaker, we did not say it was a deliberate snub on the part of this well renowned researcher or scientist. But again government is of the firm impression that this study was primarily carried out at the request of the unions in the ·area. And upon checking yesterday the unions have not been given any information or any results of the study carried out by Dr. Selikoff to date. So surely Dr.

Selikoff would have referred his recommendations,or referred the results of his studies to the people who originally requested the study to be carried out, in this case the unions in the area. MR. SMALLWOOD: Might he not feel _he was doing that by giving it to the member representing every living soul in the district,including the unions. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary from the hon. member for LaPoile, and then a supplementary from the hon. member for Baie Verte-White Bay. MR. NEARY: Am I correct in interpreting what the hon. gentleman is saying?

The hon. gentleman is he saying that it is rather an unorthodox procedure, an unusual procedure~for the minister to get this information from a press conference called by the Leader of the Opposition, when the Leader of the Opposition could

May 20, 1977 Tape 3069 PK - 2 Mr. Neary: very easily given the minister the info~ation. AI."{ RON • MEMBER: It was ser.t to him. MR. NEARY: action the next day. Sent to him one day and then demanding The minister had hardly received the correspondence. I mean,this is no time for one-upmanship or playing politics. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: It is time for pretty serious business. Is that what the minister is saying1 MR.. SPEAKER: MR. MORGAN: The han. Minister of Transportation and Communications. Mr.

Speaker, in reply to that question again I say it was with astonishment because I was hoping,and I say hoping, that this kind of a serious problem would have been - the only way to resolve this kind of problem is by sitting down together and discussing any possible evidence received by government. Yesterday afternoon a press conference was convened by the Opposition Leader and his colleagues and a . copy of the statements made and a letter to me was passed on to my office at the same time, the same day yesterday, and I was hoping this would not occur.

I would prefer to see the Leader of the Opposition, in fact, and his colleagues sit down with e~en the Minister of Health, my colleague, the Minister of the Environment, my colleague,and myself and the officials and discuss out some possible means of overcoming this very serious problem~if a problem exists. MR. NEARY: A supplementary. MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Baie Verte-White Bay. Before the hon. member asks his question I would like to welcome to the House on behalf of hon. members a number of students from St. Catherine's School in Grand Falls accompanied by their teacher Mrs.Ursula Wall. SO~ :iE RON .

MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEPKER: The hon. member for Baie Verte-White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary, please$ ~nd I would like to say for the benefit of the House that I had talked with the

May 20, 1977 Tape 3069 PK - 3 Mr. Rideout: minister and the other ministers concerned on a number of occasions about this. But I just want to ask the minister in the correspondence that we made sure was delivered to him ~ yesterday, was not attached to that a copy of the latest statistical analysis that was sent to me by the Mount Sinai School of Medicine? MR. SPEAKER: MR. MORGAN: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communication. Yes, Mr. Speaker, I did say that correspondence was received yesterday afternoon either shortly before or shortly after the press conference was called - AN RON. MEMBER: Before. MR.

MORGAN: - by the Opposition Leader, and attached to the correspondence received was - AN RON . MEMBER: Before. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, if I could get that maw-maw from Burgeo to keep quite over there while I am speaking - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would direct the hon. gentleman to my right not to interrupt, I do believe that the hon. gentlemen to my left may wish to withdraw his ad.j.ective or descriptive there. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, maybe the hon. maw-maw .. _Mv hon. friend from Burgeo (Mr. Simmons), Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, yesterday afternoon a letter signed by my good friend from Baie Verte area (Mr. Rideout) and attached to his letter was a very brief letter from a William J. Nickelson, Ph.D. Associated Professor of Hount Sinai School of Medicine~dated May 13, 1977, and there was no copy- the letter was written to Mr. Rideout in the Opposition Office, Confederation Building, St. John's, Ne~.;foundland, with no

Tape no. 3070 Page 1 - ms -~ copy going to anyone on the government side. And the letter points out that the results of the analysis of air samples adjacent to roads in the vicinity of Baie Verte as as follows - and he gives the results, the analysis of two roads, Seal Cove and the Fleur de Lys road,pointing out that the asbestos air concentration is .04 micrograms in one case and .025 micrograms in the other case.

Now this information was passed on yesterday afternoon to the public by means of the press conference and the Opposition Leader and my friend. ''These samples are each in excess of the highest levels which we have determined in any analysis of 200 samples collected in fifty cities in the USA, the highest concentration in which measured .09 milligrams of air." Now, Mr.

Speaker, this is from the associate professor and again I think that this kind of · information bejna passed on would have been better analyzed by maybe the best possible expertise we could find in this Province and get their views on this brief report.

And I was hoping that before this information was passed on to anybody in the Rouse of Assembly, in fact anybody in the Province, whether it be union, Opposition or anybody, that this kind of information would have been best analyzed . and discussed by the appropriate authorities in power or in office rather than calling a press conference to demand government action. ~. PECKFORD: SOME RON. ME~ERS: It is an insult to the House. Oh, oh~ : --

Tape no • 3070 Page 2- ms ORDERS OF TRE DAY : On motion that the Rouse resolve itself into Committee of Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF St~PLY: MR.. CF.AIR}f..AN: Order, please : 1901-01. The hon. ~inister of ~~unicipal Affairs and Rousing. :MR. DINN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Now, ~r. Chairman, this morning, as a result of some of the questions asked by hon. members last night and some of the observations made, I would like to address myself to some of the speakers who have spoken in this debate since I spoke last evening. Some hon. members, Mr.

Chairman, brought up the question of, 1ihy does it cost so much to install a water and sewer system in incorporated areas when unincorporated areas can get water systems for much less? And, Mr. Chairman, that is a very good question, a very good question. I have looked at it myself,personally. I have gone through the files. I have had a look at what consulting engineers have been charging, what kinds of jobs have been done by these consulting engineers. And, Mr.

Chairman, I personally was unable to arrive at why particular consultants charged up to 24 per cent of a job while other consulting engineers get on a job about, say, 7 per cent. You just canr.ot throw out that kind of a figure without some kind of an explanation. On some of the jobs where t•e charge 24 per cent, we got an excellent water and sewer system. ~ve got an excellent job. It has worked. It is perfect. The 7 per cent job in some cases did not work.

So it was very difficult having gone through all the jobs for the past three or four years to arrive at a conclusion as to what ~vas happening and why was it costing so much •. ~.las it the detailed design? \>/hat it the particular problems of a particular water and sewer system? l~r. Chairman, I myself could not arrive at r,,hy a consulting engineering firm. would do a particular job j_n a particular area and do an excellent /

t-f...ay 20' 1977 Tape no. 3070 Page 3 - Mr. Dinn. job, would charge a high percentage on that job, he would do a job in another area and charge a low percentage and sometimes the high percentage that he would get on the job would be a good job~

May 20, 1977, Tape 3071, Page 1 -- ab MR. DINN: and the low percentage would be a good job, so there was no way to arrive at who were the good guys and who were the bad guys, if there were any bad guys. So, Mr. Chairman, I had to giv~ that up. My engineers in the department went through it and we could not arrive at why the cost of these jobs were so high in some instances and so low in other instances. We have some jobs, Mr. Chairman, some water and sewer systems in this Province that I can only term as a complete disgrace, a complete and utter disgrace. But we cannot, Mr.

Chairman, paint them all with the same brush. I do not know what all the problems are. I am not an engineer myself so until I can get some good, solid evidence that it was negligence or something of that nature, then there is no charge that can be made. If there ~vere charges that could be made I would be the first one making th.e charges, but there are none. Now, Mr. Chairman, I was asked also by the hon. the member for Lewisporte (Mr. White) what was happening with the Patterson report and the Whalen Royal Commission report, and the Henley report. Well, Mr.

Chairman, the Patterson report refers specifically to Grand Falls - Windsor and that area. That has been referred, Mr. Chairman, to the councils out there so that they can provide input to the government so that government can make a reasonable decision on that report. We have not received that input as of yet, Mr __ . -=­ Chairman, and it is not government's intention at this time to shove any recommendations in that report down their respective throats. That is not the way it operates. If they want it they ask,and if it is a good idea they get.

May 20, 1977, Tape 3071, Page 2 -- apb MR. DINN: Mr. Chairman, the Whalen Royal Commission report: That report, Mr. Chairman, is an excellent, excellent report on Municipal Government in Newfoundland, there is no question a~ that. I think any hon. gentleman - I have read the report abOut four times because I wanted to have it fairly clear in my mind as to what the gentleman was really talking about. MR. SMALLWOOD: How often? Four times? MR. DINN: About four times, yes. MR. SMALLWOOD: How often has the hon. minister read the bible? How often? MR. DINN: That is a good question, Mr. Chairman. I went through - MR.

PECKFORD: That is the bible to the hon. minister right now. MR. SMALLWOOD: That is what I was afraid of. That is what I was afraid of. MR. DINN: Mr. Chairman, in answer to the hon. the member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) I read the bible, the Old and New Testament about twice. MR. SMALLWOOD: Twice? MR. DINN: Yes, and I have referred to it many times, because there are many - MR. SMALLWOOD: That does not count. MR. DINN: - there are many things in the bible, Mr. Chairman, that can be taken one way or another.

But with respect to the Whalen report and the Budget Speech made by the hon. the Minister of Pinnace on budget day with respect to a new grant structure for municipalities• well, Mr. Chairman, I have received the report of a steering committee that we have set up down in the department.- on that steering committee, as the hon. gentleman will know, it is chaired by Mr. Mark Staples of Planning and

May 20, 1977, Tape 3071, Page 3 -- apb MR. DINN: Priorities, also the President of the Newfoundland Federation of Municipalities, Mr. Ron Fagan - the steering committee is doing an excellent job on this report, have made many recommendations -aae one of the recommendations they have made is that we attempt in the next short while, the next year or so, to bring in a new municipal grant structure. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. DINN: Can you wait until a little later on?

I do not have a prepared text or anything like that,and I have a few odd things in my mind that I would just like to get out and I will accept your question a little later on, all right? I do not want to be rude or anything like that to the hon. member, Mr. Chairman, I just want - MR. FLIGHT: I am not going to be here.I have to take my wife home. MR. DINN: Mr. Chairman, the formula as put forth by Mr. Whalen for grants to municipalities theoretically is a good formula. But, Mr.

Chairman, it is totally,to my way of thinking, inequitable with respect to those small municipalities, especially the municipalities in the hon. member's district. It is totally inequitable right now under that system, under his formula. It works theoretically, but it would not work for the small municipalities. Now if I were political, if I were a political animal and I did not care about things like that I would just say, Well, Mr. Whalen made his . report, he has a good formula, the formula arithmetically and theoretically works and so I should implement it.

But in looking at the formula, in drawing it out and applying it to all the municipalities in Newfoundland, we would have a hundred municipalities that just could not survive. · They would die next year if it were implemented. So we

May 20, 1977, Tape 307 1 , Page 4 -- apb MR . DINN: have to take that for.mula and do something with it. They are working on it downstairs in the finance

section of my department. We have a university student hired this year to as~t

May 20,1977 Tape 3072 AH-1 MR. DINN: in having a look at these things and 1Mr.Chairman; we have to come up with a formula that is equitable,that will not destroy the municipalities that we have in Newfoundland today~ We just cannot ignore, we just cannot look at it, see a problem and ignore that problem and just go on with it · because the formula ~-1orked arithmetically or theoretically or what have you. We have to be cognizant ~~w~ys_ of t?~ needs of the communities in Newfoundland. Now, Mr.

Chairman, if of course this grant structure were brought in for municipalities~also the special grants would be discontinued. So in defence of the special grants ,_ and I say this advisedly that in defence of the special grants- and I went through this last night.witn respect to 1976-~these grants have to be, : there has to be in Newfoundland some flexibility with respect to those special grants.

If we do not have that flexibility in a small municipality where a machine breaks down and they need assistance,we would have no mechanism, none at all,to assist that municipality to get the machine fixed to allow them to clear their roads in the Wintertime. So, Mr. Chairman, we just cannot take a report, look at the recommendations and then implement it because it works out theoretically. The special grants last year, as I went through it last night, Mr.

Chai~an, were done by the finance committee of ~-'unicipal Affairs and Housing and it is one of the things that the previous minister has to be complimented on because we got a group of officials who know what is going on in all these municipalities, chaired by the Assistant DeputyMinister of Local Government who is well aware of all the problems of these municipalities,and they go through each individual request, in some cases have them investigated,and then apply a grant to the municipality that has the greatest need. And • Mr. Chairman. as I said of the $535.408 that was qiven

May 20,1977 Tape 3072 AH-2 MR. DU.TN: out in 1976 in special grants, $259,512 went to districts in municipalities of hon. members on this side of the House and $275,896 went to bon. members districts in municipalities on the other side of the House. And, Hr. Chairman, it has to be done that w~~.I know fifty-one per .cent goes to the hon. members opposite and their municipalities and ohly forty­ eight over here, but it has to be done that ~vay 0 Mr.

Chairman, we cannot allow municipalities to die simply because a machine breaks down or they cannot afford to fix it,and they cannot afford to clear their roads in the Hintertime. So •nth all due respects to Mr. Whelan, Mr. Chairman, we just cannot take these kinds of things, look at the theoretical formula , the arithmetie for:mula~ see that it works out well, divide by two and say this is the way it should go. We have to look at the real facts as they exist in Newfoundland .today and we have to apply it with some responsibility.

It is okay to be theoretical but when you have the responsibility for applying that theory then you have to do it and you hav.e to do it this way and this way works right now, it worksland it works right now better than the way Mr. Whelan recommended. Now if there is something that we can do to that formula, if there is a way that we can apply something to that formula so that it will wo~k and it will be more equitable and communities can survive,then that is the way we will do it and we have people working on that.

I have hired a university student for this year to have a look at that, to assist down in the FinancE Division of my

May 20, 1977 Tape no. 3073 Page 1 - ms Mr. Dinn. to make sure that we get a formula that works. ~r. Chairman, there also have been many recommendations sent to me by the Steering Committee with respect to the Whalen report, and they will be implemented on an ongoing basis in the coming year, and years to follow. Now, Mr. Chairman, the Henley Commission of Enquiry, the St. John's Urban Region was also presented to me this year. It wa~_presanted to me in January. And, Mr. Chairman, it was an excellent document, very easy to read, very easy to understand. It has fifty-three recommendations.

The Steering Committee have gone through twenty-two of those recommendations, and I want hon. members to keep in mind who is on thi_s Steering Committee. It is very important that we have input from the Federation of ~unicipalities. On the Steering Committee we have the president of the Federation, and r..:re also have the secretary, Mr. Ti tford. Now, Mr. Chairman, it is one thing to take a report, look at it, go through it and sa~- it is a good idea and implement it. It is another thing to take a report and go through each recommendation, one by one, and see if it works, see if it is possible to make it work.

It is a good report. There are excellent ideas. They have gone through right now twenty-two recorranendations, the first twenty-two recommendations. They have informed me that of the ~Nenty-two recommendations right now it is possible to implement something like nineteen of those twenty-two recommendations. And the people wjll accept these things as being right, being eauitable and being reasonable. Recommendation No. · 1, I belive, No. 2. and No. 5 with respect to the expanded city and that kind of setup , lfr.

Chairman-, at this particular time ~-10uld be .. rrong to attempt to implement, and I am in 100 per cent agreement r.vith the Steering Comrni ttee 's recommendations.

Hay 20, 1977 Tape no. 3073 Page 2 - ms SO¥.E RON. ~~E'PS : Hear, hear! MR. DINN: They have given me many reasons for and against, the against on these three particular recommendations far outwe~gh the recommendations to implement these three. So, ~r. Chairman, I a~ taking their recommendations. I am going to go through them myself. I will make my recommendations to government, and they will or will not in their wisdom implement recommendations that I report to them. And, of course, Y-r. Chairman, the Steering Committee will be ongoing. Now, Mr.

Chairman, one of the other problems that we have - or that I have as ¥~nister of Municipal Affairs and Housing - is attempting to decide, attempting to make recommendations to government as to what water and sewer systems should or should not be installed in Newfoundland in the coming year. So, Mr. Chairman, this year we have a Capital Projects Committee that will attempt to make that decision a little bit easier.

On that committee we have representatives of Health, Environment, Transportation and Communications, chaired by a gentleman in my department, the assistant deputy minister of local government, and they go through all of the recommendations that come in. They go through about sixteen criteria that I could list off, Mr. Chairman, 'as - :s there a health problem? TiJe cannot afford not to cure a health problem if it is at all humanly possible. So is it a health problem? Are the municipalities willing to participate themselves? Are they w·illing to pay the miminum water and sewer rate when the system is installed?

Are the municipalities willing to hook up from a property line when it is installed'Z 1'-~r. Chairman, if there are 250 houses in a community -- md they ~-rant ~-rater and sewer, the council rightfully come in and demand water and seHer. They send in the requests~ we sent out consultants; we get an estimate of cost. And, ~r. Chairman, in this day and age everybody in Newfoundland - I mean there is no hen. mel!'1_ber in this House ~vould say that a person should n9~ have water.

May 20, 1977 Tape 3074 PK - 1 Mr. Dinn: Surely God,everybody in Newfoundland today in this year , 1977 should have water, but it is impossible, Fen. members know that it is impossible to put water and sewer,or even water,in - ~ all communities in Newfoundland. It is simply impossib~e financailly. So they go through these criteria and they attempt to find out if there are 250 houses, what percentage of those 250 will hookup from the property line when it is installed? Will we spend $2 million or $1 million and then nobody hookup~ The hon. member for Burin-Placentia West (Mr.

Canning) last night mentioned several cases, I was down there last year I took a recommendation from the han. Minister of Tourism and spent my nine day holiday last year down~as the han. gentleman knows, in his district and in Grand Bank and on the Burin Beninsula in general, I travelled around the Peninsula - many years since I have been there- andi was quite surprised at the viability that exists on the Burin Peninsula. It is one of the bright spots - MR. CANNING: (Inaudible). MR. DINN: It is one of the bright spots in Newfoundland today, and whoever brought it about, Mr.

Chairman, the han. member for ! ~villingate (Mr. Smallwood) has to be complimented on some of the things that he has done in Ne1·1foundland. There is no question at-0ut that. I will be the first to stand up, I listened to the han. member, he is not aware of it, but I listened to the hon. member in the 1950s.On the way home from St. Pat's School I always went into the - when I had an opportunity . - went into the Legislature and listened to the hon. member, The hon. member laughs about it, cha~izes me~and righly so, because my voice - sometimes I get carried away and my voice is a little bit loud.

And he complained - MR. SMALLWOOD~ I did last night.

May 20, 1977 Tape 3074 PK - 2 MR. DINN: - and he complained bitterly '-.about it last night. But as thehon. member knows,he sat very close, the han. gentleman for Twillingate,and he sometimes raises his voice in debate. MR. SMALLWOOD: I have been known the odd time. MR. DINN: It has been known the odd time. So, Mr. Chairman, we have to be responsible, we have to apply these and put in these water and sewer system where it is economically feasible and so on. And the people have to hookup when the system goes in.

The hon. member mentioned several places that I visited last year:Lewin's Cove,he mentioned the sewerage is running down the side of a little valley and right into a children's playground. It is an absolute disgrace an this day and age. I would be the first to say it. I also went down to Collins Cove and I know the history as to what happened in Collins Cove when the water and sewer · system went in to Burin, that the people in Collins Cove at the time did not want it.

That is what I have been informed, at the time, did not want it, did not want to pay the services and the fees and so on,and knew it was coming about. I spoke to the council at length about it, and now, Mr. Chairman, these people have indicated that they do - and they do, it is a definite need, and they are not so much interested in sewerage disposal, because most of the· houses along the Collins Cove area and going out towards that little point there are on the seaside, Mr. Chairm~, if you will, on the seaside of the road or close thereby and could have there own little sewerage outlets all the way along there.

So they are not so much interested in that as they are interested in getting water supplied to them. I believe the estimated cost for that is something like $200,000 or $300,000 - MR. CHAIRMAN : MR. DINN: MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. DINN: Order, please! Well,my time is gone. The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. Twenty minutes goes so fast.

MAY 20, 1977 Tape 3074 1'K - 3 MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Chairman - MR. SMALLWOOD: T't.Yenty minute is not enough. MR. FLIGHT: - I just have a few words to say with regards to this particular minister's salary. First, I want to complim~ him on his approach this morning as compared to his display last night when he mac;le his original presentation.

I suppose we will have to write off his performance last night to over exuberance, or maybe it was a guilt complex, maybe it was the fact that he felt that he had to exonerate the government, ~...aybe it was a guilt complex for what has really been happening in spending this past two years. But anyway, Mr. Chairman, again I say I compliment him on his presentation this morp.ing as he appears to be intending to address hilnself to the issues in his department ap.d that is good. M1 RON. MEMBER: (Inaudible)_. MR. FLIGHT: The one issue I want to say something about, Mr.

Chairman, and he referred to the Patterson Report, and the facts do not bear out what the minister said here this morning, ~r. Chairman. This administration commissioned the Patterson

~fay 20, 1977 Tape No. 3075 1"1R. FLIGHT: enquiry, and the Patterson Report, the '!)urpose was to determine whether or not amalgamation between Grand Falls - ~·!indsor ,,;as proper - ~ The report recommended - a complete, unanimous recommendation-that the way to go in Grand Falls - ~findsor NM- 1 would be amalgamation. Nmv, Mr. Speaker, the previous minister - A_~ HON. ~ER: Hr . Chairman. ~1R. FLIGHT: Hr.

Chairman, the previous minister in Answers to Questions, my questions at the last sitting of this House, indicated this is the course that ~unicipal Affairs is going to take; that first they would allow the two to~vns, the two town councils to peruse the report, to study it and make their recommendations. Both councils did that, both councils went public as to how they felt the Patterson Report should be the recommendations should be implemented. Both councils made their feelings very clear on amalgamation, on all the aspects of the Patterson Report.

The ~inister of Municipal Affairs then, the now present Minister of ~ines and Energy, said in this House, ~r.

Speaker, and Hansard will show, that once this had been done -and let me say both councils went public through the local media r.-rith regards to their position, the implementation of the Patterson ?-eport ~ the minister indicated in this House, and Hansard will show that his intention and the Department of ~unidpal Affairs intention was after both councils had addressed themselves to the report, had understood ~vhat the report was saying, and made their recommendations c:md became fully aware of what the report meant to both to~ms, that the Department of Municipal Affairs would then institute seminars in Grand Falls - I.Jindsor.

They would find 1vays to enlighten the people of Grand Falls - r.Jindsor as to just vhat incorporation would mean, the pros and th.e cons..,and having done this t~ey t.rould then bring about a plebiscite ur a referendum in Grand Falls - Hindsor.

~y 20' 1977 Tape No. 3075 '{~. FLIGHT: No;-1, Hr. Chairmat'J, the hon. minister, if he is not aware of that he s!'lould be a"Yrare of it as minister. NM- 2 He indicated that there has been no input• __ That'is not so, -~ ~. Chairman. The next move with regard to the Pat~erson Report is up to the Department of Municipal A£fairs. If he intends to ~.;ait again it is a cop-out on this administration in my opinion. If he has got to wait until those two councils get together - ~. RIDEOUT: Like Morgan.· ___ _ MR. FLIGHT: - and comes u-p 1vith the _ ~pp_a!:~ -~us _ t() bring about amalgamation it will never happen.

You will run into the same type of thing as they have run into with the Henley Report, wtth the type of opposition we have gotten from the outlying municipalities with regards to comnlete amalgamation or being absorbed by St. John's. And, Hr. Speaker, I believe the minister, in fairness to this House and in fairness to the people of Grand Falls - Windsor, or to the Province, should recognize that both tmms have contributed all they can towards amalgamation or non­ amalgamation. I aru not saying that they should amalgamate.

But I am saying that the gover~ent of this Province and this administration has got an obligation to the people of ~Vindsor­ Grand Falls to give the..rn the ability to decide whether they \-Tant to amalgamate or not. And the only way they can have that ability is for the administration and the present minister to do what indeed the previous minister indicated they would do, and that is after both towns had had their say.had studied the re'?ort, was aware of the pros, the cons, the advantages and disadvantages, set in motion the mac~.inery that Hill permit them to have a plebiscite in those t'l-70 tm.ms.

And if the plebiscite is affirmative then, 'fr. Speaker, the govermnent should immediately set in motion the wheels th::~.t--•··~'l~l~ bring al-,out amalgamation.

~'!a y 20, 1977 Tape ~o. 3075 NH - 3 NP. • :'LIGHT : That might well mean the government having to go in and put a time limit on and sayt This is it, it is going to happen. If it is negative, if 6.ey reject a.1Ualgamation,then fine, let us bury it. Because what; is hapoening now is that this administration'>and quite possibly the administration that follows it, is using amalgamation, using it by- v7ay of turning down or slol-Ting down the growth of Windsor. I have . .; heard requests made by the town of Windsor to this administration suggesting that certain things be done in the town of Windsor.

And alt~~ugh it is not official doctrine or an official approach,people have said,HOh no , maybe it is a good ~~is but we had better wait. Maybe amalgamation will come about and then this develo?ment we are talking about will not be in the better interest of the development of the third city .1 1 So, M:r. Speaker, I doubt if I will be r.ere. I have to leave the Chamber shortly, but when t."''e minister speaks again, I hope he is listening, I hope he addresses himself tO the Patterson Report in light of what I have just said.

¥...ay 20' 1977 Tape no. 3076 Page 1 - ms Mr. Flight. Nmv, Mr. Chairman, another word on Windsor. I would hope that the minister would recognize the discrepancies between those two towns, Grand Falls, Windsor. I would hope, Y.r. Chairman - -~ I know he does. I have had private meetings with the minister. I have sat in on meetings betv7een the minister and the delegations from the Windsor Town Council. And after an hour or after a few hours looking at· the problems of Windsor nobody can be unaware of exactly the situation out there. We have a situation,as the hon. member for Lewisporte (Mr. White), says, Mr.

Chairman _ - we have one affluent town right here with a great tax base, 'tvith a great economic future and on the other side of the track - and that is all that separates . us now is a track - -on the other side of the track we have a town that is practically devoid of any possible future growth, devoid of any revenue, of any source of revenue that would enable them to continue their growth or to even service the facilities they have. Hr.

Chairman, maybe the way we are going to have to go in Windsor - if amalgamation is not brought about - maybe the way we are going to have to go is the minister is going to have to use his influence and work out some federal/provincial agreements or something. The funding has got to be found to give Windsor the ability to create - MR. DINN: Would the hon. member permit ? MR. FLIGHT: Yes. lvfR. DINN: Mr.

Chairman, the hon. members knows, I have talked to him many times about the problems in Hindsor and Grand Falls as to what should happen with the Patterson report,or ~vhat government should do to attempt to bl!ing ~olindsor on an eauitable basis so they do not go in as a poor cousin. I think that is probably _. --=-- the most important issue in \Jindsor today. If they do amalgamate, or if they do not a~~lgarnate, they want to amalgamate as equal partners, and they should. Mr. Chai"I'!!I.an, Hindsor has ~een a problem for many, many years. The hon. member knmvs.

One of the first incorporated totvns in Ne1vfoundland.

!"'ay 20, 1977 ¥R. S~ALL 1-JOOD • Y.P.. DINN: ~- SJ-~~UJ'OOD:. Tape no. 3076 The first. The first is right. After St. John's. Page 2 - ms ~fF. DINN: That is right, yes. One of the first and that is why I said one of the first to the han. member for Twillingate (l~r. Smalh10od), because St. John's r.vas. Mr. Chairman, I ~.;as out to Windsor twice since I came into Municipal Affairs. I went through the town. I saw many of the problems they have in ~Vindsor. They have some recommendations· ir to me with respect to an industrial park, and a road network, etc. ~~r.

Chairman, · ·those two items are not the answer to Windsor. The hon. member and I have discussed many times the problems in Windsor,and just that approach is not the total answer to Windsor. Across the >vay they have all the facilities for industrial parks and residential units and so on. They have that. So that is not the problem. One of the problems the hen. member mentioned to me, Mr. Chairman, was with respect to rental units, and we are attempting to get that done. I spoke to Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, and we are going to go ahead with fifteen units.

The reason I cut in on the han. gentleman was because I know he is leaving the House shortly to go home, and I do not want to take his time, but I just want to inform him. The other thing that we have to do is that we have to get something going there - if the hen. member T.vill permit, you know - we have to get something going there in \·iindsor, because of the problem with respect to neighbourhood improvement and thus housing improvement and infrastructure and road paving and so on so that the town stands on a more equitable basis when and if they ever amalgamate T.vith Grand Falls.

Thank you very much, the hon. member. ~. FLIGHT: Jvfr. Chairman, I ,.rant to reinforce absolutely and completely •·rhat the minister just said with regards to the eventual amale:arnat inn -

May 20, 1977 Tape no. 30 76 Page 3 - ms Mr. Flight. if indeed it comes about. The theory in ~-lindsor today, and I buy this theory completely 1 is that they are not interested in amalgamating - if there is any opposition to amalgamation it is on this basis- they are not interested in amalgamating and coming in as a partner with Grand Falls as a poor cousin or with so low a level of service as exists in Windsor today compared to those that exist in Grand Falls.

They are suggesting that,look~we need to upgrade our facilities and our services to a point but maybe not to the point that Grand Falls has reached, but at least to a level that ~men we come in, we do not come in as the poor cousin or ~.mat might be termed as the donni tory part of Grand Falls or the ghetto part,to use a very distasteful word. 1-'ffi.. S¥ALUJOOD : Hould the hon. member allow me to ask him whether in Grand Falls n01>1 as distinct from \'!indsor the council gets anything, any financial help or any kind of help from the company?

Or are the two places treated exactly alike so far as the company is concerned? ~. FLIGHT: That is an interesting point, ~r. Chairman. No, Sir; as I understand it the to~ ·rn council of Grand Falls get $100,000 a year in lieu-of taxes from Price (Nfld.). Windsor does not get one cent. Price (Nfld.) have

May 20, 1977, Tape 3077, Page 1 -- apb MR. FLIGHT: never recognized its responsibility to Windsor. Windsor existed as a result of the attitude of Price (NflCW back in the early days when they started the mill. As soon as Windsor st~ed, Windsor became,suddenly,the housing area for employees of Price (Nfld.) Grand Falls had built its town, brought in the necessary people they needed to get the operation off the ground, gave them housing in Grand Falls, provided all the basic services - not basic services either, provided the luxurious services we see in Grand Falls.

When Windsor started anyone looking for a job in Windsor whom Price (Nfld.) chose not to give a house, established in Windsor. Today 30 per cent of the mill's work force lives in the town of Windsor, and Price (Nfld.) to date has decided to ignore Windsor absolutely and completely. Again, this in itself is a discrepency, this in itself amalgamation would ch~nge. This is one of the injustices that were amalgamation to come about the wealth would be more easily spread. Because Windsor deserves - the town of Windsor has contributed as much to the success of Price (Nfld.) as the town of Grand Falls, if not more. MR.

WHITE: Would the han. member permit? l1R. FLIGHT: Sure. MR. WHITE: Mr. Chairman, I would like to know from the han. member - you know, I have been checking around to find out whether or not it is so, but I have been told that the Price (Nfld.) mill in Grand Falls - I know they pay the town of Grand Falls itself __ a grant in lieu of taxes to the tune of about $100,000 a year. I also understand that they pay a grant in lieu of taxes to Bishops Falls and also to Badger and Millertwon, but nothing to Windsor. Is that so? MR. FLIGHT: That is a fact, Hr. Chairman.

May 20, 1977, Tape 3077, Page 2 -- ab MR. FLIGHT: In ~orne of the cases - in Millertown the grant is very insignificant, I am not sure what it is to Badger, and these grants are based on the fact that the company has facilities of som~ kind in those towns. But, Mr. Chairman, and fair­ minded person would see the injustice here with a company like Price (Nfld.) paying to the town of Grand Falls $100,000, a town that has been well endowed, a town that also the government over the years - Mr. Chairman, there is not one government office in Windsor today, not one except the post office, federal or provincial.

Everything as it comes in goes into Grand Falls and the gap gets wider, Mr. Chairman. I could go on but I am going to run out of time here. I just want to point out to the minister that I believe that one of tll'e things he would be noted for, one of the things that he would become a great minister for, if nothing else, would be if he could change that situation of Grand Falls - Windsor. That area has the potential. Mr. Chairman, I have said this before, that if it were to be declared thethird city today, two years down the road it could very well be the second city.

The growth potential of Central Newfoundland is phenomenal compared to the West Coast. And, Mr. Chairman, when one looks at the injustices, when one looks at the improvements that would come about to a town with a population the size of Windsor, when one looks at the benefits for all Central Newfoundland, to have that situation that extists in Grand Falls - Windsor rectified, then I would suggest that if the minister accomplished nothing else in his tenure as Minister of Municipal Affairs, he would go down in history, certainly in Central Newfoundland, for having corrected the problem as we know it.

May 20, 1977, Tape 3077, Page 3 -- apb MR. FLIGHT: Although I may not be here to hear the hon. minister when he addresses himself to it - in a sense he already has - then I believe that one of the uppermost priorities in his mind, and in t~ mind of his officials,would be to look at the situation as it exists, recognize the fact that there has been injustice there for years,and do what has to be done to bring about an equitable situation in Grand Falls - Windsor.

He would not only be improving the way of life of the people of Windsor, he would be improving the way of life of the whole Central Newfoundland - ar ea. ·Mr. Chairman, if I have a minute - do I have another minute left? MR. CHAIRMAN: twelve. You have until eighteen past MR. FLIGHT: Then for a second I want to just mention the Buchans situation, Mr. Chairman : As the hon. House knows, the minister incorpo r ated Buchans approximately three months ago and set up a board of trustees. I sympathize with the minister. I am aware of the type of problems he is running into.

I would tell him that the board'of trustees that he has appointed have become disillusioned, there is nothing but nothing. In the first instance there is some disillusionment, so to speak, in Buchans with regard to the way incorporation was brought about, no plebiscite, no referendum. The people are absolutely and totally in the dark as to what incorporation will mean to them by way of benefits .or what it will cost. __ them. I am aware of why we have seen no more action than we have seen with regard to the actual incorporation or with regard to the board of trustees fulfilling the

May 20, 1977 Mr. Flight. Tape no. 3078 Page 1 - ms various responsibilities they were appointed to fulfill~ But there is an attitude of apathy growing in Buchans, there is an attitude of disillusionment even amongst the Board of Trustees. And I would ask that the minister, when he does speak - as a matter of fact I will yield my next minute to him - to point out to the House exactly what is happening in that situation in Buchans right now. AN HON. ~~ER: ¥.R. FLIGHT: to the minister. MR. CHAIRMAN: ~r. Chairman - I have got a minute that I have yielded The han. minister. -~ MR.

DINN: It is just sixty seconds, because it is a very serious problem with respect to Buchans and, of course, I am aware of it. I have talked to the han. gentleman many times about it. I am a little disappointed that the han. me~~er did not make it clear as to whether he was for or against ~ncorporation, because essentially, Mr. Chairman, he represents the people in Buchans. ~~d he seems to be standing squarely on both sides of the issue. But with · respect with Buchans, Mr.

Chairman, in the brief thirty seconds I have, we are working very hard on trying to solve some of the problems with respect to the incorporation of Buchans, with respect to the housing, and many other problems. I have, for example,in my department alone, ¥r. Chairman, three gentlemen totally dedicated to trying to solve some of the problems of Buchans ~;v-ith respect to that municipality. And I knmv- it is moving very slowly.

The hon. !!'.ember knows what the problems are in dealing with Price (Nfld.) and ASAP.CO and other people, and he has been made a~·7are of just about everything that has · gone on with respect to Buchans, and I will continue to keep him - informed as to anything that happens. Thank you very much, ~r. Chairman. ~. CHAI"P.}f.A.J."\l': 'rhe hon. Hinister of Tourism. ~"F. . HICKEY: 1>1"r. Chairman, I am not going to delay the Committee very long. There are couple of issues that I feel obligated to bring to the attention of the Committee, and to the !!'.inister. I have

May 20, 1977 Tape no. 3078 Page 2 - ms ~r. Hickey. discussed them ~·lith him, and I appreciate the problems in sorting them out. But on behalf of the people that I represent I think it is necessary that I express publicly the concerns of those people, and this is the place, of course, to do it. One, Mr. Chairman, is the Henley report with regard to incorporation of areas outside the city that are not now incorporated.

And in this connection there is a. very unusual situation existing in the communities of Logy Bay, Outer Cove and Middle Cove, who have circulated a petition and by something like eighty per cent indicated their desire for incorporation. To think, :Hr. Chairman; just five years ago to go in that area and suggest incorporation would certainly be political suicide for anyonel But because of the situation which has developed over the past five to ten years, and the encroachment by St.

John's on this area, this very scenic, rural area, the initiative came from the people themselves which is, I think, and I think my colleague, the minister, will agree, is the healthiest ~'lay that incorporation can come about.

And this is the suuation in those three communities prompted by no one except themselves and realizing very clearly the threat of encroachment and also realizing the drawbacks of being governed - I suppose one could use that word - or at least controlled by people who live outside the area, by people who have not always a complete knowledge of the area - And I refer, of course to the ~etropolitan Area Board. I do not wish, Mr. Chairman, to be overly critical of the St. John's Metropolitan Area Board, because they had a very difficult job to do and little or no money to do it with.:.

I simply say that it was this kind of situation 'Nh.ich has developed over the past ten years ~vhich has created the environment or the atmosphere where the peoples of those

}'!'cay 20, 1977 Tape no. 3078 Page 3 - rns ~r. Rickev. communities have taken the initiative on their o~m. And one of the real issues, ~r. Chairman, ~vith those people, and one of the things, and probably the most significant fact which brought them to take this initiative was the

~·~ay 20, 1977 Tape no: 3079 Page 1 - ms ~r. Hickey. encroachment by St. John's into that area. I refer to the boundary question ~·Jhich is before my colleague at the moment. The ·~ community of Logy Bay, Mr.Chairman, has been traditionally known to have its boundary at Hardings Road,which is exactly bordering Virginia Park. And the·same applies across the road a little further Ot!t towards the city, the Virginia Haters, Virginia Bridge and Virginia Haters, which is even closer to St. John's on the opposite side of the road. But now, 1v1:r. Chairman, East ~~eadows is built or just about built up.

The Cook property is residential. That will be built up. And those people, ~r. Chairman, can readily see what is happening.

They can readily see the city moving into the area, and they are very determined and very adamant that this is not their wish, and they certainly are not prepared to sit by and see this happen, because they want to preserve the rural concept, the rural way of life, and the rural atmosphere that they have been used to. .\nd so this is a very big issue with them, and I know that my colleague will address himself to it as he is at the present time, and I am sure that a decision will be reached without delay or at least as soon as it is practically possible, because the people are anxious and are waiting, and I am sure my colleague is quite well aware of it.

He has already met with the committee. ~r. Chairman, the other problems of course, the old perennial problem of waste disposal,is not without comment those days. It raises its ugly head at particular times during the year and, of course, this is the time that it always raises its ugly heai, because the warm weather is upon us and corning on, and the people again remember last year and the year before and they ·. find it difficult to look forward to another year of smell and smoke and all that goes with a '"aste disposal area.

It is not earth- shattering, ~{r, Chairman, for me to say that the solution to that problem is not easy. ~y colleague is quite well aware of that. It is almost like the situation that we talked about the other day, ~~r. Chairman, in relation to the 3ateery hy •,1ay of providing services. The city of St. John's has direct responsibility for its ~vaste disposal.

~_ay 20. 1977 Tape no. 3079 Page 2 - ms Mr. Hickey. And right now and for the past cou~le of years the buck has been passed by the city of St. John's onto the Province. ~fr. Chairman, - ~ I ~vant to go on record to say th?.t the people of my area are not too interested in whether or not the city ~vishes to abdicate its responsibility and place it in the hands of the provincial government. The provincial government has the whole Province to look after. Surely the initiative must come from St.

John's to find an alternate site or to dispose of its garbage in a proper way and certainly in a way which is going to do the least amount of damage to the environment and more especially the least amount of damage to people. So I would look to a solution soon realizing that it cannot come over night, but at least, Mr. Chairman, a decision as to what is going to happen and when, because that waste disposal area cannot be phased out overnight, and ~.re, in my area, fully realize that, and are responsible enough to accept that. ~ut as long, Mr.

Chairman, as no decision is made - and I repeat,it cannot be made by the minister; it is not the minister's responsibility. It cannot be made in isclatjon of the city and those to~ms that are using that area. There must be a coming together of those people and they must accept the responsibility and face up to the issue. And that issue, Mr. Chairman, is to get that despicable site corrected. For anyone to suggest, Hr. Chairman, twenty years ago . that Robin Hood Bay would be the site of a •,7aste disposal area, I suppose somebody would probably come to the conclusion that they were listening to a mental case.

The scenic drive of Marine Drive, which is so well-known, which has so much potential for tourist development, for which I hav~ some responsibility

~ay 20, 1977 Tape no. 3080 Page 1 - ms Hr. Hickey-. myself, an area ~.;here •,re are presently negotiating r.vith the ~ federal government to sign an ARK agreement for tourist development~ and to have right smack into that scenic area a waste disposal site~ But not only that, }~r. Chairman, the last straw was last year •vhen the city of St. John's boldly announced, for all \vho wished to listen, that they were going to allow Bay Bulls to dump in that area. Hhat are we going to hear next, Mr. Chairman? Are they going to arrange for Gander or Grand Falls, maybe, to truck it in by rail to du~ it there?

You know, just how ridiculous is the -vmole situation. So . something, Mr. Chairman, must be done and must be done quickly. I believe that I would not be a responsibile representative of the people if I did not bring those issues to the attention of the Committee. I have done all I can to sort this problem out. It is not an easy one~aF I have said. But action must be taken and taken right away. ~r.

Chairman, the other thing I want to go on the record of this debate is to correct what at least appears to be either a complete misunderstanding or a deliberate attempt to ignore the facts by some of my friends opposite. · I sat here last night, Hr. Chairman, and I heard some hon. gentlemen opposite tell the Committee about all the money that is spent in Tory districts.

I heard suggestions that the minister, my colleague and his predecessors, either by inference or by innuendo, would give quicker or faster approval to a request from a Tory district than from a district ~.rhich is represented by the Opposition, be it the Independent member for LaPoile or any member of the Liberal party. ~r. Chairman, you know, hon. members yJho_ -=- have been here for the last few years might not have too much difficulty in sitting and listening to that, but as one who has been here since 1966, ~·rr. Chairmcm, I have great difficulty in sitting and listening to that. I am not prepared to.

It is wrong. It is completely erroneous. It is an

Hay 20, 1977 Tape no. 3080 Page 2 - ms ~r. Hickey. unfounded charge, ~r. Chairman, for the facts are there for anyone to see. Facts do not lie. The facts are, Mr. Chairman, that -~ there has never been an administration.- I say to my colleague, and he is not one that can be buttered up so he will take this as it should be taken, one of nature's gentlemen, not a partisan individual, Mr. Chairman, and I have known him a long time before he ever came into the House, not a partisan minister, not a partisan bone in his body, a fair man ~me would give a hearing to anyone. ; Well his decisions, Mr.

Chairman, some of his decisions with regards to my area I do not like. ~1R. HHITE: \.fuat about Portugal Cove? MP.. HICKEY: Well Portugal Cove is another issue. :MR. mUTE: What about Indian Meal Line? MR. HICKEY: My hon. friend has got a vested interest in Indian Meal Line,because he lives there. MR.. \ffiiTE : Only for one more week. MR. RICKEY: But, you know, ~r. Chairman, it is very wrong, and it is very unfair for anyone to suggest that there is partisan politics played,especially by gentlemen who are members of the party who had been in potver for twenty-three years. You know, Mr.

Chairman, if there is ever a living example of partisanship politics - MR. ~-flUTE : Sure, they had all the districts. ~-lR. HICKEY: -I am it, and that is why, Mr. Chairman, I cannot sit idly by and see this debate go on without placing on the record for posterity the corrected situation. }ffi.. CANNING: ~.Jould the hon. minister allm..r me? }'R. HICKEY: Yes, certainly. MR. CANNING: Re just referred to the hon. metr1.bers <vho have been here twenty-three years. There are only tvJO of us here. I r.vonder which one is he referring to in his remarks, because I am pretty well

May 20, 1977 Tape no. 3081 Page 1 - ms ~~r. ranning. certain there are none, neither one nor the other have been -~ playing any partisan politics in this House. Just name which one it is. It is either one or the other and I am not the one. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Chairman, my han. friend has taken my remarks completely out of context. I am not ~eferring to the hon. gentlemen opposite ~.mo were accusing the government of being partisan in relation to the mei!lber for Burin - Placentia Hest (Mr. Canning) or the former member for St. John's Fast Extern, the hon. H. J. Browne.

I am talking about the administration that ~·7as in for twenty-three years. I am talking about hon. members last night who were saying that all the money i·Tas being spent in the Tory districts. And I am saying that I am a living example who knows the difference than that, because I represent a district since 1966, ~-fr. f'hairman, that got nothing for t':v-enty-three years because it voted Tory. Do not sit here and talk to me and tell me about partisanship politics!

I can give you some lessons in itl So you gentlemen who are a little more newer to the game than I - )'A'R • ROBERTf': They still think they are getting nothing. ' - FR. HICKEY: You still think you are getting nothing. HR. ROBERTS: No, they still think. YR. HICK..u""Y: In my area? My hon. friend should take off his glasses, remove his goggles and drive around. The largest city, the largest town, ~r. Chairmnan, one of the last largest to"~s in this Province, of over 3,500 people, Torbay, had to •.vait for ttventy-seven years before they even got a start on a water and sewer project.

Granted there are problems, but at least the project r,ras approved. The town of Pouch Cove, the second largest in the Provin~e,~ twenty-seven years. Let me tell you something about Pouch Cove, Yr. Chairman, that mig-ht be of interest to tl-,e hon. gentlemen across the way. A town that supported the Liberal Party, year after year, election after election, -never had a Tory member until the last four years. The first time it has been in my district. Bauline,that has never

~fay 20, 1977 Tape no. 3081 Page 2 - ms ~(r. Rickey . been .._ron by a Tory candidate. As a matter of fact there uas a Tory candidate, a federal ~~ember of Parliament -who ran there ~mo had a committee of seven and ended up with three votes. !viR. NEARY: One vote. !'fR • HI CK.EY : One, was it? ~. NEARY: They spent the rest of the year trying to find out ~•ho the Tory candidate was. MR. HI CK....lfY : Mr. Chairman, God bless those people! They are fine people. Who has the right to criticize them, ~ecause of how they vote~ \·Jho has the right to penalize them - because of hm·7 they vote? No one, ~r. Chairman.

SO}'I.E RON . 'MEMEERS : Hear, hear! ~. HICKEY: No one at all. But, Mr. Chairman, the community of Bauline has changed. It is in the Tory camp. It has got the first drop of water, the first drop of water, Mr. Chairman, since Confederation, running through a pipe. My han. friend talked about the community of Portugal Cove. Yes, again, another community ahout to become a town. Always since Confederation represented by a Liberal. The to~m of Pouch Cove, always represented 'f:Jy a Liberal. If han. gentlemen want to start talking about partisan politics, give me a call. I will give them a few samples, ~r. Chairman.

And the hen. gentleman and senior member of the Rouse from ~villingate will recall the couple of things that I was able to do in five years sitting on that side of the House -were- done, ?-~r. Chairman, through a personal appeal to the former Premier of this Province • And 7 xcep~ for that, they T.¥ould not have been done • \.fuen he heard and listened to the record that was put before him,he ordered some action be taken. ~A}!_ • NEAT-?Y : That is recucing your argument as a resu]t of partisan politics. FP. RICKEY: That does not reduce my argument at all. I am

~ay 20, 1977 Tape no. 3()81 Page 3 - ms Mr. Rickev. giving credit t.rhere it is due. SO~ RON. ME¥BEPS: Rear, hear! MR. HICKEY: That the senior member of this House,or one of the senior members, the same time as the member for Burin~- Placentia Wett (Mr. Canning) - }1R. NEARY: You mean he was not doing his job? MP .• RICKEY: Was I expected to run to the Premier of the Province every day even if I could get to see him. The man was too busy. Exactly. ~-. NF./._FY : ~. HICKEY: I went to minister after minister after minister. I know they were very nice.

"Come in, Tom." And then said under their breadth when I left, "Go to hell, Tom, with the rest of the Tories you represent and suffer, eat your heart out.'' ~~. NEARY: I never had one phone call, I do not believe, or one letter from the hon. minister. }1R. HICKEY : I do not represent a district which is on welfare, }1'r. Chairman. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: No, but we were building senior citizens' homes. MP.. HI CK....l<Y : I represent a district of producers, of taxpayers - SOYE HON. ~PEERS : Rear, hear! MR.

HICKEY: -that should have had services, Hater and sewer, years and years ago, Pay as you go, Mr. Chairman. HR. NEARY: But they v7ere not incorporated. MF_. RICKEY: Pay as you go. ~. NEARY: They were not incorporated. HB. HICKEY: They 'N'ere not incorporated. They ~.;ould have been incorporated though. - ~. NEAPY: Did the hon. gentleman try to get them incorporated?

May 20, 1977 Tape no. 3081 Page 4 - ms MP. RICKEY: Yes, I tried to get them incorporated. I 'tvas not duT!'b enough to go dm·m and tell them they should, because I liked my seat, the same as the han. gentleman. ~fR. NEAPY: MR. HICKEY: ~'R. NEARY: MR. HICKEY: Herein lies - At least I am truthful about it. Herein lies the problem. At least I am truthful about it. I do not represent a constituency, ~r. Chairman, yffierein I go down and dictate to my people and tell what they must do. I go down to my constituency and I advise my people.

And if they ask me about municipal government in 1967 they were told, in my view, it was a good thing. But they were also told that I am only an advisor, only there to provide whatever leadership I could and only there to be governed by the ynshes of the majority, not to d:f.ctate. ~. NEARY: But hoYT could they get water and set-7erage if they did not have a town council? MR. HICKEY: They ~·muld not have gotten the \vater and se~.o1erage, Hr. Chairman, if they-had five town councils - MP .• NEARY: How do you know that? MR. HICKEY: unless somebody again went to the Premier of the Province and appealed.

For as long as there 'vas a minister around, they would have gotten. nothin~. MR. S¥ALUiiOOD: ~"R. HICKEY : sometimes referred to. Hent to the dictator. 1-lell, even went to the dictator, as you were Now, l'fr. Chairman, I am prepared - and my hen. friend from Twillingate cannot deny this I never failed to give credit Y7here it was due, I do not care who it is. 1 could not care less. T.Je may disagree every day, but if there is an issue on 'tvhich credit is due, then that indiviC.ual must get it, and I a.m simply saying that my efforts

~ay 20, 1977 Tape no. 3082 Page 1 - ms Yr. Hickey. failed completely,l00 per cent~to get one dollar from the former Liberal Government of this Province for the five years that I represented my constituency except and on two occasions - ~t:R. NEARY: MR. HICKEY: Give us a list. J:fuat did you ask for? - that I approached the hen. gentleman who was then Premier of the Province. MR. NEARY: What did you ask for? Tell us what the hen. member asked for. MR. RICKEY: Hansard - as they say, the woods are full of them · - well Hansard is full of them. ~- · NEARY: I do not remember. l>1hat did the hon, gentleman ask for? MR.

HICKEY: Good God, Mr. Chairman! I got up here, I suppose-, and I talked about the St. John's ~·~etropoli tan Area Board and the pollution of Torbay and the pollution of Flat Rock and the pollution of Pouch Cove .· and the pollution of :Bauline, and I reported to them repeatedly day after day, year after year, about who the people supported. I even gave you a vote count on how many people in Bauline supported the Liberal Party. MR. NEARY: All of them except one. YJ! • HICKEY : It was not even in my constituency. But that did not mean that the people should not have had a drink of water.

The people of Pouch Cove - and for someone to go down to those places ten years ago as a Tory, he would be taking his life in his own hands. The han. gentleman t·7as firmly entrenched, and his minister, Mr. Chairman, cut the legs out from under him through their partisan politics by giving the people nothing and refusing them everything, the Geoff Carnells, the ~at Noels, Judge Noel. Ask Judge Noel. Yy han. friend from Let.risporte (Mr. ~-!hit e) ~ranted to kno-vr

Jvfay """J ., .::..--, 1977 Ta-pe no. 3082 Page 2 - ms ~T;. Hic!~ey. about Portugal Cove and Indian Heal Line. m1y do you not ask Judge ~oel, a former Liberal member of this House? HR. NEARY: Hhat about the late George Nightingale. Be did a good job. ~ffi. HICKEY: The late George Nightiugale - MR. NEARY: He did a good job. ~·'R. HICKEY: -who used to go down and say, 11 Hello, how are yciu?" twice a year. MR. NEARY: He built them a wharf down in Portugal Cove. MR. HICKEY: The late George Nightingale, -may the Lord rest: his soul. MR.NEAP.Y: By-roads. MR. R!CKEY: I hope he is in the right place.

Roads to the graveyards. ~. EICKEY: Again one of nature's gentlemen. I am sure my hon. friend - 'MR. SHALLHOOD: If he is in Heaven he would be in the Liberal side of Heaven. ¥R .• HICKEY: If he is in Heaven he is not going to have too many friends - ~"F. . CHAIR¥ Al'l : Order, please! MR. HICKEY: He is rather lonely. ~. CHAIR...Mt\.N: I have to remind the han. minister that his time as la-psed. ~~. NEARY: }fr. Chairman - ¥B .• HICKEY: Can 1 have one minute to ;.rind u-p, ~fr, Chairman? rAR • CRAil'..¥ .AN : Does the hon. minister have leave? SO~'E RON. }fEJ·'ffiEPS : Agreed. One minutes. ~fF. .

HICKEY: You know, time ~!R. c:F..AIR¥A'1: If the han. minister ~·10uld allow me to interrupt for just a moment. I am sure hon. membe;!;s .of the Comii1ittee .-..10uld

. ay 20 , 1977 Tape no. 3082 Page 3 - ms .. r. Chairman wish to extend a warm gelcome to nine students from Notre Dame ~cademy, Labrador City, in Grades VII and VIII , accompanied ~ by their teacher, Lloyd Snook. I might point out to the students that the Committee, as it is a Cot!lllrl.ttee of the Whole, is the ' House of Assembly in ~other guise, and therefore they are being welcomed by the members of the House of Assembly. SOME RON • ME~"BERS : Hear, hear! MR. CHAIPJ-fAN: The hon. ~.inister of Tourism. MF •• HICKEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I thank my hon • friend from Lapoile for yielding.

One can so easily get carried away on the issues which mean so much to people, Mr. Chairman, not necessarily it is ,not for self-glorification, it is a job for a member of this Rouse to properly represent the people . And I am simply stating that this should be the order of the day, .;rod. not partisan politics, and not alluding to partisan politics~ because our job here is to come together I , for the common good of the people we represent. And if we cannot do that, Hr. Chairman, if we cannot do that ,

May 20, 1977 Tape No. 3083 EC - 1 MR. RICKEY: if there "t>Tere a single man here who cannot bring himself to do that, then we should get the hell out of here, because we should not be here, anyway. Thank you very much. ~. CRAIRMAJ.'l': The han. member for LaPoile. HR. NEA.~Y: Mr. Chairman, first of all, Sir, I Hant to say how disappointed the House ~as last night at the performance of the han. Minister of Hunicipal Affairs and Housing. Well, the performance of the hon. gentleman, Sir, was very unbecoming. AN RON. ~1ffi-f.BER: (Inaudible) . -t-inaudib-le-)- MR.

NEARY: Well, I am going to have a dart at Torbay and Pouch Cove, so, I would like for the han. gentleman to - ~ HON. MEMBER: Could you wait until I come back? MR. NEARY: ~-l'ell, I cannot, because I have to go and pick up the kids over at school, in another ten or fifteen minutes. Mr. Chairman, the performance of the han. gentleman was not becoming of a minister of the government, a minister of the Crown. As a matter of fact, it was most unbecoming, Sir.

It was the grossest political - partisan political speech that I have heard by any minister since I have been in chis House in introducing departmental estimates. It was a partisan political speech. The han. gentleman appeared as if he were paranoid - completely on the defensive. There was no need for it, Sir. It was obnoxious and distasteful; and unacceptable in this House in this day and age in our democratic society. The hon. gentleman was very political, Sir, and I would submit, Mr.

Chairman, that the han. gentleman will live to regret his perform- ance in this House last night - ranting and raving and shouting and bawling, and trying to play politics, playing with figures. Like the old saying, Mr. Speaker, figures do not lie, but liars can figure. Mr. Chairman, I would have preferred to hear the han. gentleman come into the House and to giv~s a statement of policy of the han. gentleman's department.

Never mind trying to defend the Administration against accusations and statements made outside of the House, or I do not know if they were made inside or outside of the -House, that somebody is getting more than somebody else. ~at is not the way it should work at all, Sir. !-~r. Chairman, if the government is going pork- barrelling \·lith the taxpayers' rroney, then they deserve to be banished out of

May 20, 1977 Tape No. 3083 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: power. That is not the way it should work at all. Water and sewerage, road paving, every other service of government should be based on need, not on whether you are a Liberal, or a Tory, or an ~.D.P., or a Communist, or a P.C. That should not make any difference, S~ I would have liked to hear the - MR. 1-l'OODROW: Now you are talking common sense. MR. NEARY: Well, I. always talk common sense, Sir. At least, Mr. Hughie Shea thinks so.

One morning, I was on an epen Line programme, and the gentleman called me up and s~id, 'My God, everything the man says is common sense. ' It is indefensible, Hr. Chairman. I should not have to say it. It should just come naturally. Now, I agree, if you run into a tight situation and it means that the member will be the one who will tip the scales, well, it may be tipped in favour, if it is a tight situation. But, generally speaking, Sir, it should not work that way, that these decisions are based on our political decisions. Because, Mr.

Chairman, I did a survey - sent around a questionnaire to all mayors, members of town councils, local improvement districts, and so forth, almost a year ago, and one of the big complaints, one of the major complaints of the members of local government, of town councils, municipalities, local improvement districts, one of their big complaints was that there was too much political interference in the runnin~ of the municipality~ that the politician, the M.H.A., would try to take credit for good news, and he would let the local town council, or the local municipality, take the rap for the bad ne~vs.

And that was one of the big reasons, Sir, ~•hy we were seeing so many resignations throughout this Province · of members of town councils, local improvement boards and community councils. Mr. Chairman, I would have liked for the minister to have told us, last night, instead of getting on the way that he did in a disgrace­ ful manner ~ I would have liked to hear the minister tell us what is goirt~o

May 20, 1977 Tape 3084 RT-1 MR. NEARY: - happen in Labrador West. ~ole· have a group of students here today in the House, sitting in the Public Gallery,from Labrador City. When is that community going to be -~ incorporated into a town council and be allowed to elect their own members to the town council by secret ballot? When is that going to be done? Or is it going to be done? Or - AN RON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: AN RON. MEMBER: Free up the land. Beg your pardon? Free up the land. MR. NEARY: And free up the land in Labrador City. That is right.

Free up the land, sir, instead of having it run as a company town as it is at the present time. Why not let the people of Labrador City elect their own representatives in a democratic way. I would also like to hear the - I have a number of questions I am putting to the Minister. The Minister was praising the Henley report. I think it is one of the most obnoxious, undemocratic documents that I have ever seen. Super Government, another layer of Government, another layer of bureaucracy, what foolish nonsense!

Anybody with any common sense could have made a half decent, sensible recommendation in five minutes and write out one or two paragraphs, and that is follow the system they have in the City of Toronto and use the metropolitan form of government instead of regional government and super cities and all this foolish nonsense.that we are talking about.

Then the man has the gall to suggest that it be shoved down the throats of the people, that there be no vote - that they be not allowed - they be not allowed to vote, there would be no referendum to let the people in Torbay,that my han. friend is concerned about, in Pouch Cove and Conception Bay South and Mount Pearl and \-ledgewood Park and all the other areas. No, do not let them vote. He says, "No, do not give them a vote. Do not let them decide it in a democratic way. Push it do~m their throats." I hope- the Minister does not fall into that trap.

The Minister has come out a couple of times recently and said, "Hell, the Hinister is not sure whether the members will be appointed, whether the chairman

May 20, 1977 Tape 3084 RT-2 MR. NEARY: will be appointed, whether any of the members will be appointed, or whether the people will be allowed to vote or the to~m council will appoint one of their own members who has already been elected by secret ballot to the board." Hell, sir, that i~ good thinking, but the Hinister has not said which course of action the Minister is going to follow, and I hope, during this debate 3that the Minister will tell us that the people in the greater St.

John's area, before any decision is made, that there will be a referendum, that the people will be given an opportunity to vote by secret ballot and have them decide the kind of government that they want - the local government they want - for this area, whether it be the metropolitan form of government, regional government, the super-city that Mr. Henley is talking about. At least give them a chance to have some say in it. Otherwise the Minister is going to start the Third World War. Mr. Chairman, the Minister may have to appoint a chairman for three, or four, or five years. AN HON .

MEMBER: That is what happened in Toronto. MR. NEARY: That is what happened in Toronto, Sir. It is a model for the whole world, the Metropolitan Toronto system. What happened was that for the first, I believe, fifteen or twenty years, they had a chairman appointed, but all councils in the area - in the greater Toronto and Metropolitan Toronto - appointed one of their members to the Metropolitan Board and the chairman was appointed. Well, we should follow that sys t.em here. AN HON • MEMBER: MR. NEARY: AN HON. MEMBER: MR.

NEARY: (inaudible) That is right. (inaudible) That is right, sir, and it is a very, very wise course of action for the Minister to follow rather than to cram some~hing down the people's throats. Because, if it is forced on the people, then it will just not work. I know the dilennna the Hinister is in right now about the Regional Hater Supply; something has to be done rather quickly. But, whatever the Minister does, I hope it will be done in a democratic

May 20, 1977 Tape 3084 RT-3 MR. NEARY: fashion, and not - not this - not - this snob saying, 'Oh, push it down their throats'. Not in this Rouse. The snob is not in this House. · ~ Mr. Chairman, as I indicated, sir, about a year or so ago, I carried out a survey - I did a research project among town councils in Ne~vfoundland to find out what was behind this turnover in members of town councils, and so forth. The report was - AJ.'l RON . !EMBER : What was the turnover last year? MR. NEARY: Well, I do not know, but there has been a number of councillors resigned or in the process of resigning. Maybe the Minister can · tell us

Tape 3085 LB-1. MR. NEARY: what action has been taken. There are a fair number th~eater~d to resign. The one out in my hon. friend's district, the one that got in the hassle over Crown lands,the quarry. Hampden? ·4i But anyway it does not make any difference. But, Sir, I was looking over my little booklet that I published as the result of the tabulation of the responses that are received of this questinnnaire. I would just like to, for the benefit of hon. members of the House~ just throw out a few of the top recommendations of members of the town councils · (

A) they wanted the government to set up a progra~e for training MHA's- in their service responsibilities to the communities within their districts. Can you imagine, Town Councils~ HHA' s should take note of it, .should take note of it. Set up a programme for training MHA's in their service responsibilities to the communities within their districts. That was a top priority in the minds of the people that -.;vere polled. (

B) Improving communications and personal relationships between ministers and employees of government departments especially Municipal Affairs on the one hand and members of the municipal gover~ng bodies on the• other. It is a pretty fair recommendation. (

C) an updating of acts and regulations governing relationships between the municipal and provincial levels of government and a cataloguing of municipalities of the services and benefits available to them from the province along with a directory of the personnel responsible for such benefits and services. If the minister has not taken note of that recommendation I would submit Sir, that that is a fair recommendation. (

D) establishing a continuing programme of regional workshops aimed at training members of municipal governing bodies in their duties. It started, the former minister starte~~and then for some reason or other ran a

~1ay 20' 1977 Tape 3085 LB-2. MR.NEARY: couple and dropped it and I think that was a shame. M'R. niNN: ( inaudible) l·ffi. NEARY : (

E) Sir, they suggested planning a better use of Municipal Affairs staff through grDuping communities for servicing by regionally responsible officials.

"If you were to sell half the desks in the Confederation Building this is on~~I am quoting directly from one of the questionnaires,_.; you might no]t only solve part of our problem of overcrowding in Confederation Building but through decentralization and the simple expedient of keeping half the Municipal Affairs staff constantly in the field achieve a much higher level of productive service. (F) · encouraging the minister of municipal affairs to develop a master plan establishing priorities in improving relationships with and services to municipal governing bodies and to tee up a critical path for achieving the successi¥e objectives that would be part and parcel of the plan.

Here are some other. These are the major recommendations Sir, but here are some comments made and some suggestions for improving relationships between the provincial government and council and boards of trustees, submitted by a large number the ones that I am going to read now. IIIn the interest of improved communications the minister of municipal affairs and his officials should be accessible to councillors and trustees, readily, personally, speedily and helpfully with special attention paid to answering II phone calls and correspondence promptly. Apparently that was a problem in the past.

I do not know if it still is,perhaps the minister can tell us. I'The minister of municipal affairs and his staff and personnel of other government departments should personally meet with municipal councils and boards. There should be more communication and personal meetings of the ~A's

May 20 1977 Tape 3085 LB-3. MR . NEARY: 'dth nrunicipal governme .nts. The department of ~unicipal Affairs should decentralize setting up regional representatives for better liaison with municipalities. The department of Municipal Affairs could provide regional workshops and seminars for members of community councils and boards. Cut down the red tape, the evasiveness and tendency to pass the buck that erodes good municipal- provincial relations very sound suggestion. Eliminate party politics and pork barrel awards from provincial­ !

I - . municipal relationship, _just _ what hon. members have been talking about for the last day or so. Revamp the local government act to· tJ.pgrade municipal politicians from their present undignified or by - ~ignified way they are made scapegoats out of the local

May 20, 1977 Tape 3086 JM - 1 MR. NEARY: municipal governing bodies and place them in a baby sitter role. This was the way they felt about their provincial politicans - Give more attention to communities of 2,000 or less population .. ~ Obviously the smaller communities were not getting the attention that they felt they deserve. They were being sort of pushed into the background by the larger communities. Funding should be available in the follm.J'ing year to complete projects half finished in their first year. Open a planning and engineering service to serve the West Coast and other regions of the Province.

The Department of Municipal Affairs should change its attitude to municipal bodies, drop its arrogance and respect the sincerity of councillors and trustees who give dedicated service ':vithout pay. These are all taken directly, by the way. - these are not edited at all- taken directly from the questionaires. ~ese are suggestions and comments that were on the questionaires themselves. The tax collecting ability of municipalities needs a lot of bolstering. The government should conduct its discussions directly ~vith sitting council rather than with former mayors and former councillors or private citizens.

In a number of cases the discussions concerning the community were going on with the former mayor}obviously for political reasons or for some other reasons that ~vere unknown to these people. And the former mayor ~·Jas taking great pride in calling up members of the council and said, Oh, I got the news. You know, how ~muld ~.A's feel if the government, if ministers conducted business with former PEA's? MR. DINN: (Inaudible) . ~. NEARY: Well, this is a comment - as a matter of fact submitted by a large number.

The Department of ~unicipal Affairs should be organized so as to assist, advise and supervise the affairs of municipalities. \~en the Provincial Government - just listen to this- ~~en the Provincial Government who are paid says yes,they claim full credit for a project; when they say no, they leave the --

Y.ay 20, 1977 Tape 3086 }!!! • NEARY: municipal body,who are volunteers~to face the blame. .And this is so true, ~Ar. Chail"1!".an, so true and it is still happening as far as I know. The Department of Y.unicipal Affairs should ch~ their attitude to one of positive helpfulness. Government should provide more input into councils and boards. I wonder is there anybody fighting, Mr. Chail"11".an~ AN RON. ~MBER: (Inaudible) . MR. NEARY: Oh, I see. But anyv1ay, Mr. Chairman, there was a lot of wo;k and a lot of effort went into this report and I do not know if the hon. gentleman still has his copy.

The han. gentleman does not.,so I would like for the page to take this copy, take my copy over to the hon. gentleman. There is some valuable information in this report, Sir, and these are not my suggestions or my ideas. These come directly from members of tm·m councils, community councils, local improvement boards and so on. ~r. Chairman, I am afraid that I have to leave and go down to the school - I am late now, Sir- and pick up the kids. So with these fe~.;r remarks., I am sorry I will not be here to hear the han. gentleman if he responds but MR. DINN: You get Hansard, do you not? :MY. NEARY: Okay.

Fine, Sir, I will read it in Hansard. :KR. aiAIR.c~: The hon. member for Burin-Placentia Hest. }AR • CANNING: Seeing that there is some time left, Mr. Chairman, that we have to speak here,so I thought I would spend a few more JM - 2 minutes telling the minister about my district, about the needs there, about what I think is wrong~and what has gone wrong~and what I hope he will correct. I say telling the minister because we are speaking to almost an empty Rouse, practically empty on this side.

He have no Leader of the Opposition around. r,re 'have no Premier of the Province around,8.nd I do not believe either one of the previous Ministers of ~funicipal Affairs are around. So I think there are a few things I skipped over pretty fast last night that I would like to go back over

~ay 20, 1977 Tape 3086 MR. CANNING: and explain to the House and for the benefit of the minister. ¥r. Chairman, I do not like to boast of my~ experience or tilll.e I have spent here,but there is a bit of advice I think I could give a young· minister starting off in regard to my particular district or that particular area. The first thing I am going to tell him is that the people of Collins Cove and Kirby's Cove want the water and sewer. It is not true that they have ever said- that is the people,. the majority of people-have ever said that they could not pay for it or r.Tould not pay for it • JM - 3

May 20, 1977 Tape No. 3087 NM- 1 ~'!R. CANNING: And thirdly I can assure the minister that if he decides to come to their aid so that they will not have to go off in their trucks and cars looking for water this year, if he .... does nut it in there I can assure him that the amount that they agree to ~ay for it-~•hich I agree 1;11ith, you should always get sort of plebiscite or get the signatures of the_people before you go into a place like that 111here it is so expensive - If there is anybody paying in Newfoundland, the people of Kirby's Cove and Collins Cove will be paying their bills, I can assure you. Mr.

Speaker, I think he gave the figure,but I have heard figures that they are going to cost to go in there. Those figures I do not agree with. I think in fact there is a rake-off, a big rip-off by contractors in this Province that has gone on since 1949, I sup~ose before that• Well since I have been connected with it. Those ;Jroj ects, well you name it - roads, 111ater and seT.ver, recreation facilities and ivhat not, if I have ever seen any contractor come into my district, if he has not gone out of it, when he gets it,say, like the $3 million plus was s~ent in Burin, ~rr.

Speaker, if the five companies went in there and the two sets,I call them, companies of engineers, consultants, Mr. Speaker, if they did not make $1 million or $1.5 million off the town of Burin- and I mean off the town of Burin~because they are saddled with the debt forever, a~d I if that last episode there, if that is charged to the people, I contend it should not be-out if they did not come out of that 1vith Sl million or $1.5 million they should not be in there.

They do not know how to do the work,and I can assure you~the minister, I believe he gave me the understanding that he is tryin~ to have his officials, trying to find out why certain engineers ~ork costs - or the difference between one and the other, seventeen or fcurteen per cent or some such figure such as that, an a•.vful gan, he is trying to decide why one lot of engineers do a job and then another in simil&r circumstances, sL~ilar jobs~and one is seven per cent and the other is fourteen. 1Jell-,an;r.vay the difference in the cost.

Hay 20, 1977 Tape No. 3087 ~TH - 2 MR. CANNING: Hr. Chairman, I have complained as a member of this House, inside the Rouse ar-d outside the Rouse at those things,and I do not mind keeping on complaining about them, I do -~ not know if they fall on deaf ears but I just do not agree with them. Last night I emphasized a couple of times, five lots of contractors ·up in Burin. That is lvhat was there just before I went campaigning to come back here, to try to get baclc here. Mr.

Chairman, you do not want to be an engineer, you do not want to be a financial expert, you do not want to have foreman a~ilities over water and sewer or anything like that to realize that that project was going to cost a tremendous lot more than it should cost. Mr. Chairman, there are a couple of miles of land that did not even have any blasting. I do not know what was involved, two miles I guess, two and a half or something like that.

These figures might be out, it could be three, but anyway - and here is land, there is water on top of the hill with the gravity that you have got to put a main ditch through, lay a main pipe through, then you have to connect up to houses along the way, just branch off and connect up to houses. It is a simple operation. You really would not - I do not think you "t-7ould even need an engineer because the principle thing there is to make sure of the grade, the water flows from the houses into the main line and the main line goes on into the ocean or wherever it is going. Now, Mr.

Chairman, to put this out on five contracts

~ay 20, 1977 Tape 3088 JM - 1 ~-. CANNI:"TG: different contracts and sent five different cowpanies from Grand Falls, I think some of them came,from Harbour r.race perhaps, I do not knm·: where their headquarters are, and the rest of the!T'~om St. John's and sent them up.to the Burin Peninsula to give those people ~vater and sewer. Hhy you wanted that army to go up there anyway? ·I mean I know why. I know why they "to7ere up there. The people know why they were there. Ttle know who they are. He know ~vho they were supporting. We know why they were there at that particular time. Mr.

Chairman, that is Nhat I am criticizing, the ridiculousness of it! Mr. Chairman, I think that the han. member who is just strolli?-g into the Rouse from Grand Bank, the ~~inister of Justice I think that - I did not mean anything by just strolling in, that was only a way of pointing him out. And, Mr. Chairman, this is not partisan~what I am going to say now,hut I think myself that the ~xinister of Justice, the hen. member for Grand Bank, is going to agree with every word I am going to say . about contractors and about the project that I am speaking on now.

The minister knows, the han. member knows that I know that the people of Burin, the town of Burin, approximately 3,000 people, he knows that they cannot afford to take on, he knew and I knew they could not afford to take on a $3 million project. They could not afford to pay for it. ~·7e know that but I think that the hon. member "to7ill agree with me 1.-1hen I say this,that there should not have been five lots of contractors, five armies of contractors go in there. It should have been better supervised.

Imagine,two years after the job was finished the part that that bon. minister who should be there no"tor listening to me, he is not there, He should be listening because I tell you I can tell him a thing or tV/0 • MR. WHITE: He is listening. ~fR. CANNING: ~·!e kno>-J that they should not have been sent in. The hen. member l.vould agree Hith rne now that if the I think he will - say if ECi"l'amara's, a good efficient, well-established ~vith plenty of

}'fay 20, 1977 '!'ape 3088 Jm - 2 MP.. CANNING : money behind them, plenty of expertise, if they went into Burin, if they bid properly-- and I do not knm.;r if they ~vould or not-or if they figured out properly,and if they agreed to a reas~ble profit they would have gone into Burin and would have done that for $1.5 million. Now·, ~r. Chairman, the first thing they will say is he is not an engineer, _what does he know about water and sewer, you know he is a politician.

Well I can assure you that some good company like that, you kno-,;v-, rather than pick up a bunch who get together after an election and form a company~then start coming into the departments down here looking for contracts to get paic off for supporting a government. Now that is nothing new since the Tories went in. That happened when the Liberals were here. Th