Manitoba Hansard — 4 June 2001 (Sitting 40, 37th Legislature, 2nd Session)

37-2-40

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba •'"': .• ·. ·. ·" :··\�> �� .• __ ... ,. DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LI No. 40 - 1:30 p.m., Monday, June 4, 2001

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, Hon. ASPER, Linda BARRETT, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERILLI, Marianne CHOMJAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWAY,Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGJFFORD, Diane, Hon. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie MURRAY, Stuart NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PJTURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, Hon. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, Hon. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott, Hon. STEFANSON, Heather STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charles wood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Kirkfield Park Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Lac du Bonnet Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Rossmere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Tuxedo Dauphin-Rob lin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. I'.C. P.C.

N.D.I'. N.D.I'. I'.C. I'.C. I'.C. I'.C. N.D.!'. Lib. I'.C. P.C. N.D.!'. N.D.!'. N.D.!'. N.D.!'. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

2545 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, June 4, 2001 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRA YERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Kenaston Underpass Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Twyla Allen, Elizabeth Poupiglia, Heather Carlson Reid and others, praying that the Premier of Manitoba (Mr. Doer) consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenas ton and Wilkes. Bank of Nova Scotia Trust Company Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of the Bank of Nova Scotia Trust Company and the National Trust Company, praying that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba pass

an act to transfer the personal trusteeship and personal agency busi ness of the National Trust Company to the Bank ofNova Scotia Trust Company. Manitoba Hydro Lines Routes Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfi eld): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Trevor Kraynyk, Edmund Stiem, Kathy Davies and others, pray ing that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister responsible for Mani toba Hydro (Mr. Selinger) consider alternative routes for the additional 230kV and 500kV lines proposed for the R.M. of East St. Paul. Kenaston Und erpass Mr. Frank Pitura (Morris): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Amanda Street, Anne Huckerby, Joyce Goossen and others, praying that the Premier of Manitoba (Mr. Doer) con sider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenaston and Wilkes. Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Ross Enokson, Mavis Enokson, Frank Willis and others, praying that the Premier of Manitoba (Mr. Doer) consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenas ton and Wilkes. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Kenaston Underpass Mr.

Speaker: The honourable Member for Fort Whyte (Mr. Loewen), I have reviewed the peti tion, and it complies with the rules and practices of the Ho use. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honour able Members: Yes. Mr. Speaker: The Clerk please read.

Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the prov ince of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT the intersection at Wilkes and Kenaston has grown to become the largest un separated crossing in Canada; and THAT the volume of traffic for this railroad crossing is twelve times the acceptable limit as set out by Transport Canada; and THAT vehicles which have to wait for trains at this intersection burn up approximately $1 .4 million in fuel, pollute the environment with over 8 tons of emissions and cause approxi mately $7.3 million in motorist delays every year.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Premier of Manitoba consider reversing his decision to not

254 6 LEGISLAT IVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOB A June 4, 200 1 support construction of an underpass at Kenas ton and Wilkes. * (1 3:35) Manitoba Hydro Lines Routes Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Springfield (Mr. Schul er), I have reviewed the petition, and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honou rable Members: Yes. Mr. Speaker: The Clerk please read. Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT the R.M. of East St.

Paul has the hig hest concentration of high voltage power lines in a residential area in Manitoba; and THAT the R.M. of East St. Paul is the only ju risdiction in Manitoba that has both a 500kV and a 230kV line directly behind residences; and THAT numerous studies have linked cancer, in particular childho od leukemia, to the proxim ity of power Jines. WH EREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUM BLY PRAY THAT the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydr o consider alter native routes for the additional 230kV and 500kV lines proposed for the R.M. of East St. Paul.

Kenaston Underpass Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Charlesw ood (Mrs. Driedger), I have reviewed the petition, and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honou rable Member s: Yes.

Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT the intersection at Wilkes and Kenaston has grown to become the largest un separated crossing in Canada; and THAT the volume of traffic for this railroad crossing is twelve times the acceptable limit as set out by Transport Canada; and THAT vehicles which have to wait for trains at this intersection bum up approximately $1 .4 million in fuel, pollute the environment with over 8 tons of emissions and cause approxi mately $7.3 million in motorist delays every year.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETI TIO NERS HUM BLY PRAY THAT the Premier of Manitoba consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenas ton and Wilkes. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Morris (Mr. Pitura), I have reviewed the petition, and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have th e petition read? Some Honou rable Memb ers: Yes.

Madam Clerk : The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT the intersection at Wilkes and Kenaston has grown to become the largest un separated crossing in Canada; and THAT the volume of traffic for this railroad crossing is twelve times the acceptable limit as set out by Transport Canada; and THAT vehicle s which have to wait for trains at this intersection bum up approximately $1 .4 million in fuel, pollute the environment with over 8 tons of emissions and cause approxi mately $7.3 million in motorist delays every year.

WHER EFORE YOUR PETITIO NERS HU MBLY PRAY THAT the Premier of Manitoba consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenaston and Wilkes.

June 4, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2547 * (13: 40) TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): I would like to table copies of the communiques from the Western Premiers' Conference held in Moose Jaw last week. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 22-The Cancer Treatment and Research Fou ndation Amendment and Cons equential Amendme nts Act Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger), that leave be given to introduce Bill 22, The Cancer Treat ment and Research Foundation Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia Fondation de traitement du cancer et de recherche en cancerologie et modifications correlatives, and that the same be now received and read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House. I would like to table the Lieutenant-Governor's message. Motion presented. Mr. Chomiak: The CancerCare amendment act formalizes the role of CancerCare, the name, and puts in place a regime for CancerCare Manitoba similar to that of regional health authorities. Motion agreed to.

Bill 42-The Regulated Health Prof essions Statutes Amendment Act Hon. Dave Chomi ak (Minister of Health): move, seconded by the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Ms. Friesen), that leave be given to introduce Bill 42, The Regulated He alth Prof essions Statutes Amend ment Act; Loi modifiant diverses lois sur Ies professions de Ia sante reglementees, and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, this is an administrative cha nge that fulfils our obligations regarding interprovincial mobility in health professionals under the Agreement on Internal Trade and Social Union Framework Agreement. Motion agreed to. Introd uction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honoura ble members to the public gallery, where we have with us today, from the St. Fran�Yois Xavier Communi ty School, 22 Grade 5 students under the direction of Mrs. Betty Tiltman. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for Morris (Mr. Pitura).

On behalf of all honourable members, I wel come you here today. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Oppo siti on): Mr. Speaker, before I ask my first question, on behalf of all the colleagues on this side of the Ho use, I would like to welcome back the Member for Rupertsland, Mr. Robinson. I am delig hted to see you back. I think that I do speak for all of us on this side of the House when I say this House is a stronger place, a much better place having the minister in his seat, and we welcome you back. Cana da-Manitoba Adjustment Program Payment Delay Mr.

Stu art Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, on Friday, the federal Agriculture Minister announced that the final measures have been carried out to transfer $500 million in federal assi stance for the farm sector to provincial governments. Several times in recent weeks the Premier, his Government, the Doer government, indicated that farmers would be receiving their cheques by the end of May. Unfortunately, that did not occur. Can the Premier tell Manitoba farmers how long it will be, and why did they break their promise? After saying they were going to deliver

2548 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 200 1 the cheques by the end of May, why did they break their promise? Why did he not show the kind of leadership that the government of Onta rio did and pay out the provincial portion? Why is he making farmers wait, Mr. Speaker? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, we are still waiting for the Leader of the Opposition to tell us whether he is for or against the agri cultural support package to begin with. When he was asked to comment whether he would have joined the program or not, he ju st stood in the wind and did not take a position.

Having said that, the cheques were in the mail Friday. Mr. Murray: Well, Mr. Speaker, you know, I understand that the Premier is embarrassed that he obviously has been letting farmers down, that ther e is clearly no indication, so rather than answer the question he prefers to attack me. If that is the way the Premier likes to run his Government so be it, but the problem is while he likes to poke fun at me, farmers in Manitoba are suffering because there is no leadership. * (1 3:45) Manitoba Hydro Public Utilities Board Review Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Off icial Opposi tion): I rise on a new question, Mr.

Speaker. Manitoba Hydr o has not been before the Public Utilities Board for a rate review since 19 96. To quote from a Jetter that the Manitoba- Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a new question? Mr. Murray: Yes, on a new question, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as I was saying, Manitoba Hy dro has not been bef ore the Public Utilities Board for a rate review since 19 96.

To quote from a letter the Manitoba Society of Seniors and the Consumers' Association of Canada sent to the minister in April, and I quote: Consumers have both the right to information and the right to voice their concerns regarding monopoly service providers in this provi nce, as well as the responsibility to participate in the process of making decisions that will affect them as rate payers. Can the Premier explain why he is ignoring his responsibility to ensure Manitobans have a voice in the future of Hydro by refusing to ask the Public Utilities Board for a general rate review? Hon.

Gary Doer (Premier): The rates are frozen, Mr. Speaker, and they are the lowest rates according to U.S. Edison now in North America. They are the lowest rates in North America because we built Limestone after the Tories mothb alled Limestone in the '70s. That is why the rates are the lowest in North America. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker,

Section 26(1) of The Crown Corporations Public Review and Ac countability Act states and I quote: No cha nge in rates shall be made and no new rates for services shall be introduced without the approval of the Public Utilities Board. The Premier is breaking this Jaw by chang ing hydro rates without putting th is before the PUB, and he is getting around the Jaw by sneaking in a legislative loophole called Bill 27. Is the Premier so afraid of public scrutiny that he has created a loophole in Bill 27 to avoid having to appear bef ore the Public Utilities Board, Mr. Speaker? Mr.

Doer: Well, two questions ago, the Leader of the Opposition was feigning interest on the agricultural plight. Here we are lowering the rates for farmers, farm families, with rate equal ization and now he wants to oppose that policy. We have a tale of two utilities now in Manitoba, Mr. Speaker. The Tories' vision is in one utility. We have rate rebalancing going on in rural Manitoba, as quoted by the Portage Ia Prairie newspaper, that is totally shafting rural residents with the sale of the Manitoba Telephone System to private inter ests. That is rate rebalancing going up for farm families in rural Manitoba.

The other vision is treating Manitoba as one community, using the surplus revenues from hydro-el ectric export sales, export sales that

June 4, 200 1 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2549 were made by this Government or this party with the building of Limestone, using the surplus from some of the export sales in United States to lower the rates in rural and northern Manitoba. We are going to put that forward in legislation. We are going to take a stand. What stand is he going to take when the legislation is before the House? Mr. Mu rray: Mr. Speaker, once again the Premier insists on misleading Manitobans. The circumstances surrounding hydro have changed considerably since the last rate review.

Rates are changing and there are billions of dollars in pro posed hydro projects on the Doer government's agenda. During Estimates, when discussing Hydro and the role of the PUB, the Premier stated unequivocally, quote: Obviously, we will follow the law. The law as outlined in 26( 1) is clear, and I quote: No change in rates for services shall be made and no new rates for services shall be introduced without the approval of the Public Utilities Bo ard. Will the Premier stand by his word and will he follow the law by putting his proposed legislation projects before the Public Utilities Board? Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, the only capital alternatives members opposite had is one under pass in one area ofthe city of Winnipeg. Mr. Speaker, we are following the law. We did not bring in rate equalization, well, first of all, without promising it in an election campaign. The people were consulted. There were no surprises, like the sale of the telephone system. It was before the people in the campaign. A mandate was obtained by the people democratically electing a government in the campaign with certain promises to implement. We then came in with a Speech from the Throne outlining our policy direction.

We now have a Jaw before the Legislature that will in fact, if supported, and 1 would ask the members opposite to support it, equalize the rates in Manitoba. It will equalize the rates in Manitoba utilizing the surplus hydro-electric energy to take some pressure off a farm family or take some pressure off northern Manitoba. Only after that happens, Mr. Speaker, only after the law is passed. We will not have it applied before the law is before this Legislature. Only after that law is dealt with by this Legislature will in fact the rate be able to be reduced or not reduced depending on what this Legislature does.

Dem ocracy, a promise made, a process, a Speech from the Throne, a bill before the Legi slature. If they want to vote against it, let them have the courage of their convictions to say so right now in this Legislature. * (13:50) Split Lake First Nation H)'dro Development Agreement Mr. Harold Gillesham mer (Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, last fall the Doer government signed an agreement in principle with Manitoba Hydro and the Split Lake Cree. Can the Minister respon sible for Hydro advise the status of this agreement? Has it lapsed? Has it been extended?

Is it going forward, and can he table any documents on that agreement? Hon. Greg Selinger (Min ister charged with the admini stration of The Mani toba Hydro Act): The agreement in principle with the Split Lake First Nation was signed and a copy was made available to the Opposition upon their request. Now they are working on the next phase of that which they call a PO I, a project development initiative. Mr.

Gilleshammer: Can the minister confirm that, according to the agreement in principle, the proje ct will be owned by a separate entity comprised of the Split Lake Cree and Manitoba Hy dro and not exclusively by Manitoba Hydro? Can he indicate why that is possible? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, under the legislation that was changed by the members opposite in '97, there is provision for separate corporate entities to be created that will allow for partici pation of other partners, in this case First Nations communities, in the provision of a new generating facility.

In the case if that new partner no longer wishes to be an equity partner in that facility, they have the option to se11 it to Manitoba Hydro only.

2550 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 2001 Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Speaker, can the minister explain the apparent conflict between Bill 7, in which Hydro cannot sell any part of its interest in a major facility, with the agreement in principle which states the Gull project is to be co-owned? Mr. Selinger: It is very clear that ex1stmg facilities cannot be privatized. Under the '97 legislation, new facilities can have an equity partner and that equity partner can only sell its stake in that new facility to Manitoba Hydr o.

This is what we have put in our legislation, and we will have full and ample opportunity to debate it in the House. Mani toba Hydro Public Utilities Board Review Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountai n): I thank the minister for those words. The Crown Corpo rations Public Review Act states that where a Public Utilities Board is satisfied that the cir cumstances of a corporation have changed substantially, the PUB may review an order and modify the order in any manner.

I am asking the Minister responsible for Hy dro: Does he now recognize that the cir cumstances of this corporation, Hydr o, have changed, and will he call for a review by the Public Utilities Board? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister charged with the admini stration of The Mani toba Hydro Act): The Public Utilities Board reports to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr. Smith). What has not changed is the rates have been frozen for five years in the residential sector and up to ten years in the industrial sector. Mr.

Tweed: Well, will the minister agree then that by adding a private partner he has actually changed the corporation levels, and will he put it before the Public Utilities Board? Mr. Selinger: The agreement in principle binds neither party to the agreement, to the final outcome. It is an agreement to continue working together and negotiating a final outcome. When that outcome eventuates, it will be placed before the Legislature. Mr. Tweed: The minister has admitted that they changed the corporation. They have added a partnership, Mr. Speaker, a private partnership to the agreement.

Again I will ask the minister to include all Manitobans in this decision as required by law. Will he put it before the Public Utilities Board? Mr. Selinger: First of all, the member opposite is incorrect. There is no final agreement. There is an agreement to continue negotiating to find an arrangement where there is an equity partner. The second thing the member opposite misunderstands is the role of the Public Utilities Board. It is strictly empowered to set rates for Manitoba Hy dro, not to review these types of arrangements.

These types of arrangements are reviewed by the Public Utilities Standing Com mittee of the Legislature and, of course, the Legis lature itself. * (13:55) Manitoba Hydro Generating Plant-Bra ndon Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Vi rden): Mr. Speaker, an editorial, entitled Trust Me No Longer Cuts It, in the Winnipeg Free Press earlier this year stated: Expert opinion now indicates that Hydr o is spending twice what it should be to build a gas-fired generating plant at Brandon. Mr.

Speaker, why is the Minister of Hydr o, according to McCullough [phonetic} Research, "overspending" or wasting over $100 million of taxpayers' money on this venture? Hon. Greg Selinger (Min ister charged with the admini stration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): I have reviewed that item with the president of Manitoba Hy dro. He assures me, and he will be happy to assure the members of the Legislature when the Public Utilities Com mittee of the Legislature meets-1 believe, the meeting is set for the 18 th of June.

I will have the details of that, but he assures me that the purchase of those turbines for Brandon are well within market rates. As a matter of fact, at the time we purchased them, we got a better deal

June 4, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 255 1 than we would have if we would have delayed it any longer. · Mr. Maguire: Wel l, Mr. Speaker, market rates or not, can the minister explain why Manitoba Hydro is paying $54 million Canadian per tur bine more than the same turbines purcha sed by the Town of Defiance, Ohio? Mr. Selinger: 1 would suggest to the member opposite his information is accurate. The turbines were purchased at a market rate.

It is likely that the differences in the two situations are with respect to the infrastructure require ments and the other related costs with respect to the turbines. I would be happy to review the specifics of that with the member opposite or any other member of the House when the Public Utilities Standing Committee of the Legislature meets very shortly. Manitoba Hydro Public Utilities Board Review Mr. Larry Magu ire (Arthur-Virden): Mr.

Speaker, the minister can talk it over with me all he likes, but will the Minister of Hy dro stop trying to hide from Manitobans and allow for a full review of the Manitoba Hydro activities by the Public Utilities Bo ard? Hon. Greg Selinger (Mini ster charged with the admi ni stration of The Mani toba Hydro Act): Once again, the proper forum for the review of those activities is the standing commit tee of the Legislature and, of course, the Legislature itself. The Public Utilities Board is a rate-setting body. It is not a body that reviews the capital expenditures of the Public Utilities Board.

The capital expenditures are reviewed by the Crown Corporations Council and the Crown Corporations Council has the full authority to do that ifthey wish. Cour t System Delays Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh). Justice delayed is ju s tice denied, as we all know, and as the tragedy of what happened with Thomas Sophonow con tinues to unfold in the inquiry currently going on, last week it was revealed that the problems with the delays in the Manitoba court system continue unmitigated under the present Justice Minister.

I ask the minister to admit that the three and-a-half-year delay experienced in the case involving counterfeit money was far too long and unconscionable. Why are the delays in the court system continuing? Is the minister's leader ship in Justice as weak as his leadership in the Ho use last Thursday? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Acting Minister of Justice): Mr. Speaker, I will take that question as notice on behalf of the Minister of Justice. Dom estic Violence Court Delays Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, my supplementary to the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Mackintosh): Why is it presently taking a year or more to hear cases in the Domestic Viol ence Court, or will the minister not admit that his policy of delay and delay is hardly conducive to enhancing domestic harmony? Ho n. Dave Chomiak (Acting Minister of Justi ce): I will take the question as notice on behalf of the Minister of Justice. * (1 4:00) Cour t System Delays Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): My second supplementary to the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Mackintosh): I ask the minister to explain why impaired driving charges are taking a year or more to go to court when just last week the minister announced he would be doing more prosecutions. Is this not rather ineffective when these efforts are stuck in the morass and mire of a clogged court system? Ho n. Dave Chomiak (Acting Minister of Justice): The Minister of Justice undertook a review of the Crown prosecutors. They have expanded the number of Crown prosecutors that are available, Mr. Speaker, something that had

2552 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 200 1 not been done in the past, in order to provide Crown prosecutors and give them the oppor tunity to do their duty, and that is to be involved in the Court system, to be involved in the trial system, to prosecute and do for the public what they expect Crown prosecutors to do. I think the expanded role and the expanded number of Crown prosecutors has had a significant and will have a significant effect on the administration of justice in Manitoba. Man itoba Hydro Debt Repayment

Schedule Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): In this year's Budget, the Doer government doubled the water rental rate paid by Manitoba Hydro, increasing it by $48 million. The Doer government also stripped $17 million from Hydro annually by increasing the debt repayment guarantee. Does the Minister of Finance have a debt repayment

schedule that he can table with this House which outlines how Manitoba Hydr o will repay its long-term debt of more than $5 billion? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister charged with the admini stration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): Manitoba Hy dro operates under certain sets of financial tests that it has to meet, one of which is the debt to equity ratio. It is on target to meet a 75:25 debt to equity ratio as recom mended and suggested in terms of policy. Mr. Loewen: I would ask the minister if he can identify for Manitobans how it is possible that Manitoba Hydro can meet this debt repayment

schedule when at the same time this Government is contemplating massive increases in capital expenditures. They are stripping more than $65 million more a year annually out of the corpo ration. How does that allow it to meet its brief? Mr. Selinger: The financial targets of Manitoba Hydro are obviously enhanced by the sales of energy into the expor t market, and they have achieved record levels in the last couple of years. Manitoba Hydro is fully expected to pay a market rate for the guarantee fee and a reason able rate for water power rentals.

That is what is being done, and they are still expected to meet their debt to equity ratio. Manitoba Hydro Publi c Utilities Board Review Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): I would ask the minister then if he would be willing to convene the Public Utilities Board so that Mani toba Hydr o can explain to Manitobans what effect the Doer government's plans for increased capital expenditure and their plan for rating profits will have on the ratepayers of Manitoba. Will he call the PUB? Hon.

Greg Selinger (Minister charged with the admini stration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): We will call the Public Utilities Com mittee of the Legislature to review these matters. That is scheduled for June 18, and I am sure the member will be in attendance. Manitoba Hydro Selkirk Generating Station Mr. Glen Cumm ings (Ste. Rose): This Doer government announced plans to spend about $60 million on the Selkirk Generating Station using natural gas as a fuel and creating considerable uncertainty given the rate of increase in natural gas recently.

Will the minister commit to taking this plan to the Public Utilities Board for review and answering expert questions? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister charged with the admin istration of The Mani toba Hydro Act): The previous government was operating on the very edge of the licence they had for Selkirk. The plant was possibly going to be brought out of service in the year 2005. We asked Manitoba Hydro to look at alternatives, to stop using coal.

They thought natural gas was a reasonable alternative, and the natural gas costs that go into that plant will be more than made up for by healthy foreign sales at higher rates. Of course, all of these matters are reviewable by the Public Utilities Standing Committee of the Legislature. The rate-setting mechanism for Manitoba Hydr o rests with the Public Utilities Board, but they do not concern themselves with major capital investments. Man itoba Hydro Pu blic Utilities Board Review Mr. Glen Cumm ings (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, this Doer government, this minister is on the

June 4, 2001 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2553 edge of credibility in terms of being responsive to public interest about what is happening in hydro. Will this minister commit to taking this project to the Public Utilities Board for the ques tioning by experts? Hon. Greg Selin ger (Minister charged with the admin istration of The Manitoba Hydro Act: The conversion of the Selkirk Generating Station to gas will significantly reduce green house gas emissions. It will allow the retention of an important number of jobs in the Selkirk community. It was very responsive to the public interest.

Residents in the area were concerned about the environmental impact of a coal gener ating station. We have addressed that issue; we have addressed the local employment issues. We will be happy to review all the details of that at the standing comminee of the Legislature. Mr. Cummi ngs: Mr. Speaker, one of the underlying principles of managing a monopoly in this province is that it is required to go in front of the Public Utilities Board to defend its rates. Will this minister take the Manitoba Hydr o- Some Honour able Members : Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Cum mings: Mr.

Speaker, in order to ensure that the public has trust in the rates and in the management that is proceeding of our public utilities, will the minister commit to going before the Manitoba Public Utilities Board with Manitoba Hydr o, the same as MPI is required · to? Mr. Selinger: Mr.

Speaker, it is unfortunate the members, after 11 years of being in charge of Manitoba Hydr o, do not understand the distinc tion between the role of the Public Utilities Board, which is responsible for rates, rates which have been frozen for five years, and the role of the Crown Corps Council which reviews the business plan for Manitoba Hy dro, and, of course, the role of the Public Utilities Comminee of the Legislature to review the governance of it by the Government. We will proceed to be accountable in all of those forums for the specifics that are required by the legislation in those areas.

Manitoba Hydro Public Utilities Board Review Mr. Harold Gillesham mer (Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, prior to 1988 the Pawley government and the current Premier (Mr. Doer) would sit around the Cabinet table and set rates for MPIC, for telephones, for hydro. We made a substantive change in legislation, which mandated that all of these rates go before the Public Utilities Board. The minister is dead wrong when he says that they have a narrow mandate to only review rates. The Public Utilities Board has the right to review the activities of the corporation.

I would ask the Minister of Finance why he is afraid to submit before the Public Utilities Board all of the activities that are going on within Manitoba Hydro. Hon. Greg Selinger (Min ister charged with the admin istration of The Man itoba Hydr o Act): Mr. Speaker, we are happy to submit any rate increases that may be on the horizon, and there are none planned at the moment, to the Public Utilities Board. Manitoba Hydro makes itself fully accountable to the Crown Corps Council.

Of course, Manitoba Hy dro will be ready to answer any questions that the members may have when we convene the standing comminee ofthe Legislature. Mr. Gilleshamme r: On a new question, Mr. Speaker. This Premier wants to return to the Howard Pawley days, where rates are set around the Cabinet table. It is not only this side of the House- Some Honour able Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Member for Minnedosa, on a new question. Mr. Gilleshamm er: On a new question, Mr. Speaker.

Th is Premier wants to return to the days of Ho ward Pawley where they would sit around the Cabinet table and set the rates for MPIC, Hy dro and Manitoba Telephones. We are not the only ones who are asking for a review by the Public Utilities Board. The Consumers' Association and the seniors association of Manitoba are also concerned about the agenda of this Government. Why will they not submit all

2554 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 200 1 of their plans on Hydro to the Public Utilities Board? Mr. Selinger: Once again, the Public Utilities Board is fully available and responsible for rate setting. The rates have been frozen. The Crown Corps Council is responsible for reviewing the business plan, which they have done. The stand ing committee of the Legislature can review any matters that it wishes to and, of course, the Legislature is ultimately responsible for the Crowns, and we are fully accountable here as well. Mr. Gilleshammer: On a new question, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker: The honourable Member for Minnedosa, on a new question. * (14 :10 ) Mr. Gilleshammer: I would ask the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro if he is not aware that the chair of the Crown Cor porations Council has indicated that the Public Utilities Board has a broader mandate, a mandate to review all of the activities of Crown corpo rations, and will he not agree with the chair of the Crown Corporations Council and submit all of the activities of Manitoba Hydro to the Public Utilities Board? Mr. Selinger: Mr.

Speaker, we will be fully accountable for the business plans and activities of Manitoba Hydro to the Crown Corps Council. We will be fully responsible for any rate increases, which are currently not on the horizon, to the Public Utilities Board. The Public Utilities Board has reviewed rate increases for Centra Gas, which is also owned by Manitoba Hydr o, and they will continue to provide their due diligence there. We will convene very shortly, as promised, the standing committee of the Legislature for Crown corporations, including Manitoba Hydro.

I might add that we have had more meetings in our short term of office than the government did in their entire term of office during the last government. East St. Paul High Voltage Hydro Line s Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): Mr. Speaker, Manitoba Hydro has two 230 kV lines and one 500kV line currently running through East St. Paul and construction of a new line is currently on hold. Would the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro consider instructing the corpo ration to lower the voltage through the existing lines, while they study as to how the existing lines affect the health of the people of East St. Paul? Hon.

Greg Selinger (Minister charged with the admini stration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for that question. There is one tower in the East St. Paul area that has two 230kV lines on it. I am informed by Manitoba Hydro that the electro magnetic field is directional and the two lines, being on the same line, actually reduce the size of the electromagnetic field because they cancel each other out; therefore, the people in that area are safe. The readings at the highest level would be in the order of eight milligals. The inter national standard is 88 0 milligals.

The readings at the hig hest level are I percent of the inter national standards. Manitoba Hydro Public Consultations Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): Mr. Speaker, will the Minister responsible for Hydro commit to full and open public hearings under the Public Utilities Board to discuss the hydro issues of concern to Manitobans? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister charged with the admini stration of The Mani toba Hydro Act): The member opposite should know that it is the Department of Conse rvation, the environmental licensing branch, which reviews applications for any new hydro line trans mission.

That application was initiated by the former government. It was completed and ap proved by the Department of Conservation. The appeal was hea rd and dismissed, so all of the proper procedures have been followed with respect to that application. In addition, we have asked the Clean Environment Commission of Manitoba to review the literature and the state of the art with respect to EMF fields. We have had the best possible

June 4, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2555 review we could have of that. The Clean Envi ronment Commission has had a recent meeting with the residents from the East St. Paul area, and they will continue further dialogue to edu cate each other as to their concerns and the actual state of the science with respect to these Jines. Video Lottery Terminals Reallocation Mr. Jack Reimer (Sou thdale): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister responsible for Lotteries.

Recently, a number of the site holders throughout Manitoba and Winnipeg have been notified of a re-evaluation of the amount of dollars that go through the machines in regard to the reallocation of machines that are under utilized. Is the minister aware of the letter-! imagine she is aware-that went out when it says, just as a quote: Based on sales revenue of your VL Ts for a period from January 2 to December 31, 2000, it is determined-and then it says-the removal of the VL Ts from your site. In my calculation, that is a one-year period; that is a 52-week period.

However, when the calculation is done on the allocation of volume per machine, the dividing number is not 52 weeks per year, it is 53 weeks per year. I want to ask the minister why there is that type of discrepancy when in the letter it says a one-year period, which is 52 weeks; with the calculation of the dollar amount it is 53 weeks. Why would there be this distinction? Hon. Diane McGifford (Minister charged with the admini stration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Mr.

Speaker, generally speaking, I want to assure the member opposite that the initiative to redistribute VL Ts in Manitoba is a business decision that was made by the administration of Lotteries and also approved by the board of Lotteries. I would also like to point out that this initiative has the support of the Manitoba Hotel Association and the Manitoba Restaurant Association. Both are certainly looking forward to MLC beginning this process, and, in fact, the process has begun. I might also point out that there was a previous redistribution of lotteries in June 19 96, under the previous administration. Mr.

Reimer: The mmtster is outlining the support that ha s been garnered through the various organizations, but I ju st want to ask her for clarification. Is she aware that the dividing number, when you talk about one year which is 52 weeks, is not used when the calculation as per volume per machine is used? Fifty-three is used. I want to know why there is that difference between 52 and 53, because that does amount to a fair amount of dollars when you are looking at a machine that is on the borderline of either staying in the establishment or being pulled from the establishment. Ms.

McGifford : Just to finish what I was discussing, and then I will get to the member's specific point. In 1996, 650 VL Ts were removed from the system. I do want to say that with this redistribution, we are continuing with the re moval of that 650 VL Ts. So it is a business decision made by the administration, supported by the board, an initiative that has been taken before and is being done now. Now, the member asked me about 53 weeks.

I do not have that particular letter before me, but I will certainly contact people at Lotteries, and if I might phone him in his office, I can provide him with the information that he is looking for. * (1 4:20 ) Mr. Reimer: That is exactly wha t I was asking the minister to do because I know that her staff right now are running around like cats on lino leum trying to find the answer for th is. If she is willing to look into that type of discrepancy, Mr. Speaker, that is all I am asking because some particular rural outlyings have asked me to ask that question.

The question has been asked; the answer has been given. Thank you. Ms. McGiff ord : I did assure the member that I would solicit that information and get back to him, but I do not think it is very kind for him to refer to the hardworking staff at Lotteries as cats sliding around on linoleum. I think that is slightly insulting to those people. Point of Order Mr. Reimer: As a matter of clarification, Mr. Speaker, I was talking about the spinners that

2556 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 200 1 run up and down these hal ls here, not the Lot teries staff and the people who work for this Government or for our previous government. Good employees, they work very hard at what they are doing. It is not a reflection on the em ployees of Lotteries. It is the minister's staff and the Premier's (Mr. Doer) spinners. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Member for Southdale, it is not a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. Indi

an Act Amend ment s Mr. Frank Pitura (Morris): Mr. Speaker, first of all, I personally would like to welcome back the Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs (Mr. Robinson). It is good to have him back in the House. I did welcome him back before the session started, and I said I do not have a question for h im, but now I have changed my mind and I am going to have a question for him this afternoon. So, Mr. Speaker, a few weeks ago the provincial and federal ministers and Aboriginal leaders from across the country met here in Winnipeg to discuss a wide range of issues as they relate to Aboriginal people. Mr.

Spea ker, given that this Government and this minister have publicly expressed con ems about the Indian Act, I wonder if the minister would outline for this House what changes the provincial government would like to see made in this federal piece of legislation. Hon. Eric Robinson (Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Aff airs): Mr. Speaker, before I proceed with the answering of the question, allow me to thank the members of the Oppo sition and all colleagues in the Ho use for their get-well wishes. It means a lot to a person that is suffering in their health.

I want to thank every body for those kind words and also the well wishes that I received from everybod y. With respect to the question, I have asked our staff at Aboriginal and Northern Affairs to do a

summary or an analysis on wha t the Indian Act amendments that are being proposed by the federal government will mean to our ju risdiction. Certainly other provinces and other territories are of the same opinion, have some concerns on what this will mean to the province of Manitoba with respect to the potential offloading by the federal government to the provincial govern ments. We want to be on top of the issue. We naturally believe that many issues belong to the federal government with respect to First Nations people.

We want to be equipped and ready so that we are in a position to respond to the federal government to express any concerns our Gov ernment has. I will certainly keep my colleague updated on any developments, if there are any, that may have a direct impact on the province of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Millen nium Scholarship Awards Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, last Wednesday, May 30, I had the honour of attend ing the Rotary Club of Winnipeg luncheon held at the Winnipeg Convention Centre.

After sharing lunch with over a hundred Rotarians and guests, it was my pleasure to speak about the Canada Millennium Schola rship Foundation Excellence A wards and to recognize the accomplishment of seven exceptional young Manitobans. The Millennium Scholarship Foundation has two distinct programs. The first is the Bursary Program, which is a needs-based initiative pro viding some $275 million in funding annually to more than 90 000 students enrolled in uni versities, community colleges, and vocational schools across Canada.

The Bursary Program represents 95 percent of the foundation's funding to students on an annual basis. The foundation's second program is the Excellence Awards and was the reason for my participation. This year, 900 Excellence A wards will be granted at the national, provincial and local levels. These awards recognize, support and en courage talented Canadians who make a positive

June 4, 200 1 LEG ISLA TlVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2557 and significant contribution to the betterment of communities across the country, who demon strate the capacity for leadership and are com mitted to the pursuit of academic excellence and innovation. This year, 41 Manitoba youths won the merit-based excellence awards. National award winners receive a $4 ,800 cash award renewable for up to four years. Provincial and territorial winners receive a $4 ,000 cash award, also renewable for four years, while local recipients receive a one-time cash award of$4 ,000.

Winn ers of the Local Excellence A wards were Rory French, Janee Leberge and Lauren Lange. The Provincial Excellence Award winners were Feraz Shere, Kyle Ushock. while the National Excellence A ward winners were Katherine Cibinel and Tara Maltman. These ex ceptional young Manitobans will be pursuing further studies in areas such as law, education, animation, commerce, drama, ph armacy and engineering. The future is bright for these youth and for our province as they complete their studies and become the leaders of tomorrow. Our future will be in good hands.

I am sure that all members of the Legislature share in congratulating all Manitoba youth that are recipients of the 200 1 Canada Millennium Schola rship Awards. Quorum Cou nt Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, last Thursday morning as the sky turned to grayffhe boss was on business and the mice had to play/Our members had noticed just prior to eleven/the Government was missing, they had only seven.

What was it that morning that scared them away?/ Did they not want to hear what we had to say?/ Was it the day's Question Period that made them afraid?/ Were they going to get caught with mistakes they had made?/ Were they tired of giving the wrong information/Or hidi ng from parents to avoid confrontation?/Had they prom ised too much as they stood there and shouted/ And hoped that by Monday we would forget all about it?/Was the business that morn ing not worthy of their time?/Had the Member for The Maples been hung out to dry/As he stood and supported a resolution he had raised?/On an issue, l might add, our side would have praised/His own caucus colleagues abandoned him there/D id they not support him?

Did they ju st not care? We will never know, Mr. Speaker, how that would have ended/Or to ju st how much business this Ho use could have tende d/A full day was lost/No Ho use business was doneffhere was no excuse/We ll, they thought they'd try one/ They did it too when the roles were reversed/From their caucus room table they cried, "Well rehearsed"/ Wh ile this did occur, we will openly say, "It is rare, it is unhe ard of to lose a full day"/So Mr.

Speaker, as they excuse and defend/In this Chamber is one place they cannot pretendffhey know they got sloppy/We have known all along/And that's why this Government won't stay Governme nt for long. Some Honour able Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Fine Art in Action Exh ibit Ms. Linda Asper (Riel): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Dakota Collegiate organized the St. Vital School Division's Fine Art in Action display in May at St. Vital Shopping Centre.

The exhibit in the mall featured more than a hundred pieces by students from six different area schools, includin g Glenlawn Collegiate, Dakota Collegiate, Vi ctor Wyatt, George McDowell, H. S. Paul and Samuel Burland schools. The mall exhibit featured large and small paintings, cha rcoal sketches, photography, clay work and plaster casting. Not only did the display provide an opportunity for students to share their artistic talents but also the public saw what young people can do and gave positive feedback to the artists.

Dakota art teachers, Heidi Murray and Karen Geist, should be very proud of their work with the students. Their enthusiasm and dedication as professionals was reflected in the excellent student work on display. There were also some of their students at the ma11 working on new pieces. This allowed the community to

2558 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 200 1 see what is done first-hand and to jnteract with the young people. Art programs in St. Vital schools is another example of the quality edu cation being offered. Congratulations to the students for sharing their art with us. Bravo to the teachers in each school for their efforts to help their students develop all their talents. May the art program continue to interest and challen ge our youth. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Back Forty Folk Festival Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to rise in the Ho use today to speak about the Back Forty Folk Festival which I had the pleasure of attending yesterday. This year's event was the 12 th annual and drew a crowd of about 2000 people. The Back Forty Folk Festival is held on the first Sunday of June in the Morden Park. The festival is composed of nine hours of music and fun for the whole family in a beautiful grassy bowl on the banks of the Dead Ho rse Creek. This year's event included the kids' workshop, a workshop stage and mainstage area. It turned out to be a gorgeous day tha t was thoroughly enjoyed by everyone.

In addition to the annual summer festival, the Back Forty hosts coffee houses and song writing performing workshops in Morden and in Winkler. Their mandate includes a strong edu cational component as they nurture young talent in our region. I would like to congratulate all the performers, the organizers and especially David Stobbe for making the 12 th annual Back Forty Festival such an enjo yable experience. We all look forward to next year's event. Thank you. Poplarfield Millennium Album Mr. Tom Nevakshonoff (Interlake): Mr.

Speaker, it is with great pleasure that I rise in the House today to draw attention to a very worthy undertaking recently completed on behalf of the people of Poplarfield. I refer to the publication of the Poplarfield and District Millennium Album, compiled at great effort over a long period of time by Mr. Edward Ledohowski who grew up in the area.

To acknowledge all of the people who con tributed time, money, pho tographs and his tories towards this worthy proj ect would be impossible in the time allotted to me, but I feel the author would like me to draw special attention to his sponsors for federal and provincial financial assistance, The St. Nichola s Ukrainian Catholic Parish and the Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Parish of Poplarfield. Mr. Speaker, Mr.

Ledohowsk i's undertaking at this point in time was critical in preserving the early his tory of this region in that it would not have been too much longer before all ties to the past were severed by time. His foresight and initiative have now assured that future genera tions will have a concrete and informative record of the efforts of their ancestors who opened up this land. This album is not merely a collection of old family photogr aphs.

Rather it explores all as pects of the devel opment of this region, thereby making it not only a cherished keepsake for people with roots in the region but also a useful tool for people in general interested in the his tory of our province as it was settled by our European ancestors, in particular the Ukrainian people. On behalf of the people of Poplarfield in the province of Manitoba, I thank Mr. Edward Ledohowski and the people who assisted him for compiling this worthy document. Thank you. ORDERS OF THE DA Y Hon.

Steve Ashton (Deputy Government House Leader): As acting House leader, I would like to advise the House that on Wednes day afternoon, June 6, the condolence motion for Gildas Molgat will be considered under Orders ofthe Day. Members may recall that we did have this previously scheduled, but, due to lack of time, we are rescheduling it. It is June 6, Wednesday afternoon. Mr. Speaker: For the advisement of the Ho use that on Wednesday afternoon, June 6, the condolence motion for the Honourable Gildas Molgat will be considered under Orders of the Day. That is for Wedne sday, June 6.

June 4, 2001 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2559 Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, I would like to, just before moving this motion, indicate tha t if we do complete the Committee of Supply we will then have second readings and I will discuss with the Opposition House Leader (Mr. Laurendeau) the specific order of business. In the meantime, I would like to move, seconded by the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Sale), that the Ho use resolve itself into a Committee of Supply. Motion agreed to. * (14: 50) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concu rrent Sections) HEALTH Mr. Chairperson (Harry Schellenberg): Good afternoon. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the Department of Health. There was a previous agreement of this committee to have a global discussion of the entire department and after completion of all questioning pass all resolu tions. We will continue with the global discus sion. We are open for questions. Mr. David Faurschou (Portage Ia Prairie): appreciate the opportunity to pose questions of the Minister of He alth this day. I would like to ask the question I posed to the minister last year in regard to speech and language path ologists.

As he is aware from previous questioning, there has been a significant disparity between remuneration of those individuals who are in the employ of the Department of Health, and those who are in the employ of the school divisio ns throughout the province. Of note, the changes that were made significantly provided for a gap in not only remuneration but holid ays as well as professional development. Could the minister update me, as he had promised last year to look into the matter? Hon. Dave Cbomiak (Min ister of Health): Mr.

Chairperson, the entire issue of perceived disparity or unequalness across the system is pretty well a system-wide difficulty that we face across the system in virtually every area of the health care field. We find, across the gamut, from community right through to tertiary care facility, there is a range with generally the higher paying being in the tertiary care facility and then, as we move out into the community, a generally perceived lower payment. There has been a fair amount of lobbying across the system for some form of equity to be placed across the system.

With respect to the specifics of the member's question, that is the differentiation between those employed in education and training and those employed with the health care system. I will take that as notice and I will provide the member with information on that. Mr. Faurschou: I thank the minister for his response.

However, it was very specific to speech pathologists at the He alth Sciences Centre, in relationship to those who are em ployed, not by the Department of Education, but those who are employed by the school divis ions, which fa ll under the ratings as established by the Manitoba Teachers' Society on par with level of education. As you can appreciate, the level of education for these individuals is significant and falls into Class 5 and Class 6, dependent upon numbers of years of training.

I would like now to ask the minister in regard to technicians specific to ultrasound, my understanding is those who are selected for that training come from other disciplines, whether it be radiology or other technical positions, into the ultrasound program training offered by the Health Sciences Centre and St. Boniface. Annually, eight individuals are selected for this program. Currently there are seven because of one attrition. Is he knowledgeable of the employs of these indivi duals, subject to their graduation from the program? Mr.

Chomiak: If memory serves me correctly, of the seven that are continuing in the class, I believe one has accepted an offer outside of the province, and I believe that six, in one form or another, will be remaining in Manitoba. Mr. Faurschou: At present, through their own association, they have determined that now three persons will be leaving of the seven, and it is already an area that is critically short. Portage Ia

2560 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 200 1 Prairie General Ho spital has one individu al who is going on maternity leave, and they have advertised extensively for a replacement and have yet to garner any more than a part-time replacement for her position. That is going to be essentially shared with other facilities, and, consequently, there will be a significant backlog of ultrasound referrals because of this.

I would like to ask the minister specifically: Is he contemplating anything similar to that of the nursing field where there are enhancem ents to encourage individu als graduating to remain in the province? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson.

I do not suppose that there is an area that we could probably name in the health care system-! do not think I could think of, offhand, a single area where we are not receiving some kind of pressure in the form of recruitment outside of the jurisdic tion, or shor tages for a variety of reasons, and quite clearly in a variety of areas we have to be "competitive." To be competitive across the wide range of professions in Manitoba is not possible right across the gamut. We cannot be at the top of the scale for every single area.

What traditionally has occurred in Manitoba is generally we remained in the middle of the pack and attempt ed to maintain that standing across the system. In some areas, we have been forced to go to the top of the levels; in some areas we are not at the top of the levels. The question of sonographers is really an interesting one. It is like so many other professions.

There is a relatively small pool, yet the significance of the work is such that any difficulties encountered, be it work-related matters of which there are consider able in that particular profession or be it other matters re lated to a variety of issues, maternity, paternity, et cetera, have a serious impact across the system. We had been working with the WRHA to look at a variety of other issues and a variety of other responses as it relates to tha t particular profession.

I had also hoped that by this point we would have some specific recommendations, but those recommendations are still pending with respect to issues surrounding sonographers and surrounding ultrasound in general. Having said that, even if I was in a position or we as a Province were in a position to offer parti cular enhancements to a particular profession, I do not think I would publicly state that during the course of Estimates insofar as there is a whole variety of issues surrounding this and surround ing bargaining and surrounding issues as relates to that. So the member's point is well taken.

We are quite aware of the shorta ges. Like so many other areas, in fact, if we had the personnel we certainly have the resources and are prepared to enhance the number of services available and would but for the human resources. We are cognizant of it. There is some review that is presently being undertaken in that regard, and we hope to be able to improve the system over the next little period of time.

The member indicated that he was under the impression that three-] assume the member's information is mo re current than my memory, and I will just confirm those numbers and see if I can find out a little bit more. Mr. Faurschou: I do not believe the numbers are as pertinent as is the trend, and I say specif ically that we are training more than enough individuals to provide for our system here in Manitoba if we were not, in fact, exporting our newly trained individuals to other ju risdictions.

The encouragement to stay, I was not asking for specifics; I was mostly ju st trying to emphasize that discussions must take place in order to provide that encouragement to stay, to put down roots and effectively make Manitoba their place for their career. I would like to ask the minister as well when we could look forward to his department or his decision on capital proje cts.

I asked the minister last year as well in regard to the redevelopment of the regional hospital in Portage Ia Prairie, as has been the recommendation of three previous studies conducted by the Department of Health recommending a new facility. The central regional RHA has in fact placed that at the top of their capital project request for support from the department. It remains in that position. I would

June 4, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2561 like to ask the minister as to when potentially we will hear as to whether or not at least the primary steps will be considered for support toward a new regional facility in Portage Ia Prairie. Mr. Chomiak: Yes, the member asked this question last year. In fact, the member asked it previous during the course of Estimates. I believe I did read a response in with respect to that. I did endeavour to get back to the member. The member might have been distracted at that particular moment that I read in the update with respect to the Portage redevelopment situation.

I am sure the member is reviewing that in terms of Hansard. I can indicate that with respect to the capital plan, as is generally the practice, the capital plan usually follows the overall operating plan. I am anticipating within weeks the release of the capital plan for th is year. Mr. Faurschou : I appreciate the minister's response.

I will endeavour to seek out his response previous to that and will look with anticipation to the placement of Portage Ia Prairie upon that capital list in the next week or two. would like to ask the minister as to the progress toward the Premier's promise that individuals that are engaged in training as a health care aide, subsequently as an LPN and further to that R.N., and ultimately BN, or nurse practitioner, will receive accreditation for their program that they have completed, and their experience to be recognized in the progression to higher levels of involveme nt in the health care field as to whether or not there has been some progress to this effect.

More pertinent to this, we are very short of health care aides in the system. Currently, to my understanding, those that are enrolled in the registered nursing diploma program and the registered nursing baccalaureate program are not able to practise as health care aides when they are in that program, ju st so they can at least try to earn some money and some experience in our health care facilities. Other than at present, I understand they can only volunteer until they have completed their program. Is this correct or is it not? Mr.

Chomiak: I do not have access to the specific individual who could give us the specifics. I will also endeavour to get back to the member with respect to that particular item, because I do not want to hazard a guess, hazard a comment. I am somewhat familiar, but on a matter of this kind I would prefer to be accurate. I will get back as soon as possible to the member on that specific question.

With respect to the general question, I attended this morning a small portion of the MLPN annual convention and was advised by the nurse that was very kindly spiriting me around not to use the word "laddering," which I always thought was an appropriate word, because she felt we should have specific exit points and ability to bridge from one area to the other. It clearly is our intention to try to move toward that kind of a system. I am advised that the diploma nursing program has taken on some LPNs with respect to training at Red River. I think that that is a significant step forward.

We are trying to design the program to provide and permit a utilization of both previous education experience and previous competencies.

"Competencies" is really a significant choice of words in terms of this particular debate insofar as there is generally a trend towards recognizing competencies and determining eligibility in practice based on competencies, and less so based on specific kinds of educational institutions or kinds of educational certificates, if I can put it in those terms. * (15: 00) However, there is a variety of debates between various organizations and government bodies with respect to how to best deal with those specific issues.

We have ongoing discussions in that regard and are hopeful that we can move towards a system that takes advantage of the tremendous potential out there amongst people who have experience and who have education, who want to both utilize that education and that experience, and who want to enhance that education and experience in a variety of settings. With respect to the specific issue of a prohibition on indivi duals who are in training in the diploma or the baccalaureate nurse program from actively working as a nurse's aid, I will

2562 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 200 1 take that specific question as notice and get back to the member on that issue. Mr.

Faurschou: Moving on to ask the minister of his announcement back in October 2000, in which the level of support to the tune of $3 89,000 of nurses' training in Selkirk, I was wondering if the minister has considered those dollars being made available, when this program is complete, to other areas of the province, where regional health authorities can identify their deficiencies and to take on training pro grams that will address those shor tages within those regional health author ities. Mr. Chomiak: There is no doubt that there is an absolute and a very clear system of shor tages across the system.

It is not ju st a case of rural and northern Manitoba suffering from the shor tages of nursing and other professional staff, but even amongst certain areas of nursing in tertiarian and acute care facilities, there are some significant shorta ges . Some of the measures that have been taken, aside from the Government's five-point nursing plan that was announced in the spring of 2000, was a reintroduction of LPNs within the acute care setting which is happening at the Health Sciences Centre, first time a reversal of the policy of a number of years, and is occurring in other acute care facilities.

We hope to enhance across the system. Other than the overall obvious increase, and I have indicated on more than one occasion, both in the House and Estimates, that there are more nurses in training now than before. In fact, right now there are also 250 nurses in the LPN program set to graduate. We are looking at it on an as-needed basis within specific communities, a specific training of floor nurses along the lines, as I mentioned by the member. We have had the assistance of the federal government with regard to training and training dollars or education dollars.

We are pursuing various options and looking at different options in this regard. I know the member has for some time suggested and had some advice with respect to this area, and I appreciate that. I think it is well founded. The issues concerning the application of nursing and nursing functions are related to a variety of issues. There are professional issues. There are issues relating to workforce matters. There are issues relating to management.

We are vigorously pursuing all of these areas in order to, in the final analysis, get and obtain and ha ve more nurses provide the care that is obviously needed across the system. There are a variety of concerns, and it is becoming apparent, it seems to me, that the key issue that is now coming before us is one of retention, retention for a variety of reasons, not ju st based on demographics but retention because of recent developments in other ju risdictions, notably, Alberta, British Columbia, Ontario, Nova Scotia. So there is a fair amount of pressure with respect to retention initiatives.

The member talked earlier about sonog raphers. It is the same across the field with nurses as well. In many cases, they are hig hly mobile and have the ability to go to other jurisdictions. We have been kind of fortunate in the last couple of years because we have managed to retain most of our nursing classes. We may not have that luxury in the near future. Targeted training is something that we are looking at. There are various stages of devel op ment, but it is something we are looking at. Mr. Faurschou: Mr.

Chair person, the reason I asked of the dollars of supp ort for training in various areas within the province, whether it be Portage Ia Prairie or Dauphin or Russell or Swan River, it gives the opportunity to persons that have already demonstrated their commitment to those communities and provides the opportunity to enhance their skills and support the health care needs of their communities without having to relocate to take the training. As you can appreciate, if persons can relocate to take the training in either Brandon or Winnipeg, they can also relocate into other ju risdictions once they are trained.

If we give the opportunity to persons that are already in a community and are wanting to fulfil a need in that community, those dollars are very, very wisely spent. I will compliment the minister's support in Selkirk, over $389, 000 worth of support for the LPN training program there, but I would like to leave with the minister the thou ght to continuing that level of support elsewhere into the province

June 4, 2001 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2563 where identified needs are put forward. If the minister is willing to put a mechanism in place where these needs can be clearly identified and prioritized in some formal fashion, I believe that he will make very wise choices and the dol lars that are spent in training will be very, very wisely spent, so if the minister has a comment on that before I move through, otherwise 1 would like to ask more specific questions. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Chairperson, 1 ju st want to comment that the member makes a very valid suggestion. Mr.

Faurschou : Just with the health care aid deficiency that we have in th is central region, the Red River Community College has, with its satellite campus in Portage Ia Prairie, attempted to address that identified need.

However, the tuition cost, because of it being a satellite campus and required to ef fectively collect from the students the full cost of the program, placing that tuition at over $2,000 per individ ual for a six-month course, makes it almost prohibitive for many that are looking to take this entry step into the health care field. 1 am wondering whether or not the minister appreciates this or whether he is knowledgeable of this high tuition when programming is available outside the Perimeter. Mr. Chomiak: Yes, I am aware of the issue, Mr.

Chair person. 1 should add that most recently, over the past weekend, the head of the Manitoba Nurses' Union has also called for similar supports to enhance nursing. I think the sugges tion was for free tuition or subsidized tuition. I take it the member's suggestion, as well, is because of the differentiation, the difficulty and the advantage of people maintaining and staying in rural Manitoba, that some thought be given to some kind of subsidized or decreased form of tuition. I will take that information as advice from the member. Mr.

Faurschou : This is my last question to the minister before my honourable colleague from Russell has questions to pose to the minister. In regard to the ambulance service that is operated out of Portage Ia Prairie being of a pri vately owned enterprise, contracted to the central regional RHA, the announcement to support new ambulances and for personnel to staff those ambulances, as previously announced, how does that fit with the current situation in Portage? Mr.

Chomiak: One of the slight disadvantages of not doing line by line is I do not have the specific individuals here to deal with the specific items in terms of some of the more complex questions posed by the member, but my understanding is that the RHAs have now the legislative authority to provide for ambulance care within their various regions. I understand that the repleni shment and the renewal of the existing fleet that has been advocated will be for those that are operated by particular regional health authorities.

I do not think it applies to the contracted relationships between the particular ambulances in a region and a particular regional health authority. I also understand there are far less of those arrange ments in place, and there has been a significant transformation into the region. But that is my understanding of the issue. * (15:10 ) Mr. Faurschou: The minister has left me with another question on that basis of saying that regional health authorities have the jurisdiction over ambulance care.

Is tha t also now the minister's position that the RHA has total jurisdiction over other entities such as stretcher services, for instance, tha t operate out of Winnip eg primarily because, as you can appreciate, there are a great deal more persons coming into the city for treatment than there is backhaul, if I can use that termino logy, to their respective communities. That the stretcher service would be much more affordable to individuals once their treatment has been received in the tertiary hospitals in the city. Mr.

Chomiak: There continues to be a fair amount of ambiguity with respect to that partic ular issue. Mr. Faurschou : Is the minister supportive of the stretcher services that are certified to operate here in the city as to their ability to take persons back to their respective communities, regardless of the regional health authority in which that person resides?

2564 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 200 1 Mr. Chomiak: I believe that there are some discussions going on in that particular area as we speak. Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): I have some questions of the minister as they relate to the RHA deficits. Now we have been over this ground, I know, and I acknowledge that, but I do not feel that the minister has really given me any comfort in terms of how some of the deficits in our rural RHAs are going to be handled over the course of the next year.

Specifically, I am concerned about the areas that I represent, but I think that applies to most areas that are running a deficit in terms of the challe nges that these RHAs are facing. No one is suggesting that the minister should have a magic fix, but I believe that it is an issue that is causing some concern.

The Marquette RHA ran a deficit of well over a million dollars in the past fiscal year, looking at another deficit year in this particular year and probably not knowing or understanding how they are going to be able to manage given the fact that a large portion of the money that was allocated to them in this fiscal year has had to go to offset the deficit from last year. So they are left in a quandary, I think, as to what they need to do in the course of the next year. There are rumours, and I guess we should not place any weight on rumours.

But indeed there are rumours that there may be a need to close or to diminish services in some of the small communities that are served by the Marquette Regional Health Authority. So I would like to ask the minister specifically how he intends to address the deficits of the rural RHAs, and if I can use the example, of the Marquette Regional He alth Authority. Mr. Chomiak: Yes, we have canvassed it a bit during the course of the Estimates, and of course we will continue. A couple of things ju st in terms of setting the parameters, setting the stage for this discussion.

One of the things that we have done th is year is we have given the RHAs ahead of time their budgets in advance, very clearly in advance. We have tried to be providing as much information as possible. What happened in the past was the budgets were formulated, were basically targets that were established, not that firm, and during the course of the year He alth would flow money to the various regions based on different developments. What we tried to do this year was, as has been successful in some of the other regions, provided money up-front. It has been appreciated. So that is the first point.

The second point is that the vast majority of money that we provide to RHAs this budgetary year, the vast ma jority of money is in balance and not in deficit. Far more is in balance than in deficit positions. There are problems. The regions generally advise us that the difficulties being encountered the argument from the regions, which I think has validity, are based on a his torical underfunding of the base. Our goals, both last year and this year, were to try to determine exactly what that base is and then function from that particular base. We, obviously, in a number of cases, do not have it right.

The third issue is that I do want to differentiate between on the issue of small hospital closings and the issue of small-hospital closings vis-a-vis deficits. There were rumours about small hospital closings long before we came into office. There will be rumours about small-h ospital closings probably long after we leave office. It is an issue out there. I just want to differentiate slightly from the issue of the deficits in the regions. We have, and we are looking at each of the region's plans and the options that they are looking at with respect to how they are going to deal with their budget.

We are looking at it on an individual basis and on a system-wide basis. Obviously, from a central government per spective, we felt very comfortable with the allocation of the funding in this budgetary year, probably more overall tha n any other time since regionalization. There has been some concern, but I reiterated during the course of these Estimates that in fact, for example, the Winnip eg Region which does do 30% rural work, got a lesser percentage increase than some of the other ju risdictions. That is not to say that I discount some of the issues of deficits and some of the issues of budget.

There is the issue of deficit and

June 4, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2565 then there is the issue of programming, and if there is a shortfall, where does tha t go to? It amounts to the same thing, but we are facing both sides of that particular equation. We are looking at the various options. I am hopeful we can resolve the majority of these issues in the best interests of everyone across the system. I note last year, again during �he course of Estimates, there were lots of cla1ms about particular regions and how they are going to b� in deficit.

I said give us a cha nce to work on 1t and at the end of the year, as it turned out, those particular difficulties did not arise. In some cases I think we will be able to manage and those ' difficulties will not arise. I am not certain that in all cases that will be the case. * (15: 20) We have asked the RHAs to submit plans with options to deal with their budgets and how they proceed with the meeting of the e_xpec tations in their communities. We are lookmg at those circumstances as we speak.

We are work ing with the individual regio� s collectively an� also on an individual basis With respect to the1r particular circumstances. I do want to indicate that the vast major ity of funding that is going to RHAs this year is not in deficit. The vast majority is in a balance situation. There are some significant problems in some areas. We are trying to address them on a one-by-one basis. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Cha ir, I appreciate the minister's answer. As I indicated in my former question, no one is expecting miracles. There are no quick fixes, I do not believe, in the system.

Regionalization is still fairly new and young and certainly needs to develop. I think, regardless of who is in the minister's chair, there needs to be some latitude given to the department to be able to address those issues. What we are finding, which is somewhat disconcerting, is the fact that rural RHAs are facing some fairly significant challenges, not only in their deficits. I mean, the deficit is one thing, but the deficit is as a result of costs escalating and the RHAs not being able to meet the demand that is out there.

There are a lot of morale problems within the hospitals themselves because of that, because there is significant pressure b�ing put on th _e individu al hospitals themselves m terms of thetr budgets. If you talk to the nurses, they will tell you that not only are they overworked, but full time work is almost impossible to get. Everyth ing is done on a casual or part-time basis. So that discourages a Jot of our younger professionals from entering the job market, if you like. This of course has to relate to the funding and to the amount of money that is available in the RH As.

Prior to RH As I know that in my area most of the hospitals were running at a surplus. Sine� regionalization we an� seeing_ th �t _the , deficit continues to mount. It IS not th1s m1mster s fault, but I think it is a symptom of a system that needs to be addressed and challenges tha t need to be wrestled with.

So I am asking the minister, although he says we are working with the RHAs, whether �e can outline for us here in government and m opposition what his vision or what his plan i _s with regard to dealing with the system so that It can be sustainable and so that the growth needs and services to patients can be achieved. Mr. Cho miak: Well, the member asks a very large question. It is quite clear tha t sustainability, in fact, is the crucial issue across the health care system, has been for some time, continues to �e.

It was probably the main issue of contentiOn during the federal-provincial negotiations lead ing up to the agreement last fall. It is in fact t?e key issue surrounding the Romanow co� mts sion. It is taking place today. It was the key 1ssue in the Fyke commission in Saskatchewan. As well, and I am not trying to be political on this, I just note that Premier Harris of Ontario has made it pretty well the top of his agenda, quote: the sustainability of the health care system and the ability to meet the demands and the needs across the system.

For a long time, there have been various components to this issue of sustainability. During the '90s there was significant closure of beds on the assumption that the closure of beds would see some of the funding transferred to various other areas of the health care system for provision of services. The ref ore, the system would continue, but with less funding, providing

2566 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 200 1 essentially more services but not so many more in the acute care sector where it was identified as more expensive. Those efforts have met with varying degrees of success. The question of sustainability looks at the major cost generators across the system. Quite clearly, we have pointed out that the single biggest cost driver is a percentage basis, and otherwi se the system today is pharmace uticals and drug prices across the system, not just in the Pharmacare program but the pharmaceuticals that are provided to the various programs and institutions.

When we look at an analysis of the increases across the RHA sector, for example, one cost generated that ju mps out at us very obviously is the question of pharmaceuticals. The other issue that is clearly coming to fore is the entire question of wages, of salaries, and how we address the demands. We discussed it earlier during the course of these Estimates, the demands to retain professionals in Manitoba and in rural northern communities specifically, without being competitive. That clearly is an issue as well.

There is no doubt the system has contracted to the extent that there are less beds in the system, and those less beds are treating more people. The costs themselves have not demonstra tively decreased. It is quite clear that a number of initiatives have to be taken, both on the preventative and the community side, and actu ally take place. It has not been largely broadcast, or necessarily indicated, but Manitoba has done some significant development in this area in the last two years. The member indicates four years, and I was going to get to that in a second.

For example, the palliative care program, which was started by members opposite, which I was very supportive of, we have continued in to the point where we are recognized across the country as having the best palliative care program in the country. We have not rolled it out significantly in rural Manitoba yet, but we have funded palliative care co-ordinators in rural Manitoba in order to roll it out. We are continuing some sig nificant initiatives to both fund and undertake the palliative care program.

A Jot of the initiatives we have undertaken in the past 18 months have been geared toward an attempt to place the services at the community's side, be it the eating disorder program, be it the PACT program, or be it some of our initiatives. We could disagree. We will disagree with respect to how we undertake day surgeries. Having said that, I do not think the member would disagree with the fact that we should be doing more day surgeries, and we should be doing more day surgeries outside of acute care settings in the surgical centres or other wise.

Obviously, we are going to disagree in terms of whether it should be private, public or whatever, but the point is we have and we are undertaking initiatives to do services in the community related to day surgeries. *( 1 5:30) Manitoba Health undertook a significant review of primary care provision, primary care provision being the era and the application of primary care, and we are continuing those efforts across the system. We are continuing a move towards a variety of primary care initiatives.

Now, for anyone to suggest that this is where I got into trouble, where when I addressed the MMA recently, I indicated that we did not have a grand scheme for the application of primary care because we wanted to look at different models of primary care application and then take the best practice. Certain members of the Opposition have mischievously suggested that my comments about the grand scheme apply to all of health care. Nonetheless, I am not defensive on that.

Althou gh one would suggest that when I said that in my comments, but what I said at the MMA and what I continue to say, is that with respect to primary care we have taken a whole series of options, some which were undertaken by the prev ious government, some which we are introducing, to look at primary care across the system to see what works best and how we can apply it across the system. There are examples in rural Manitoba; there are examples in northern Manitoba; there are examples in the cities of the application of primary care. You know, it was lost in a lot of the fanfare in terms of our initiatives.

For example, in dealing with the hallway medicine initiative, at least half of the initiatives, 50 percent, were

June 4, 200 1 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2567 geared at the community. That was done deliberately. It was deliberately done on the basis that if we could keep more people out of the hospital, that would deal largely or help to deal with the hall way situation . So any success we have had in that area, which I suggest is considerable, can be attributed to our initiatives in the community.

So the overall direction and flow-and it has been very clear in our direction and in our priorities in terms of health plans to the regions and otherwise-is towards community-based care, as well as a directive towards dealing with primary care. So there is prioritization of issues like mental health. There is prioritization of issues of community care. There is prioritization towards primary health care. There is prioriti zation to the extent that we can implement it towards preventative health care. I might add we have done more in the preventative health care side in the last year than in a long, long time.

The vaccination programs we have undertaken, particularly the pneumo coccal which was recommended as a prevent ative measure that we introduced for the first time in Manitoba- An Honourable Member: Only here. Just in the city. Mr. Chomiak: No, the pneumococcal was across the province. The member is referring to the meningitis.

No, the pneumococcal was an initiative that was recommended about a year and a half ago as to prevention of pneumonia because we were finding that during the, quote, "flu season," many patients, particularly the elderly, were obviously having secondary illnesses as a result of their flu, and if we could prevent pneumonia from developing, we could save Jives and reduce hospitaliz ations. So we introduced the pneumococcal specifically geared at that. The evidence is still out, but certainly the indications in other jurisdictions are that it is largely successful.

The child injury program that we undertook, the advertising campaign has been eminently successful, a far greater response than even we anticipated, and if we solved a few injuries or saved some difficulty, then we have done it. We are also going to be doing more extensive preventative initiatives across the system. So we have been consciously gearing towards the primary health care side and the preventative side in terms of our approach.

That is primarily aimed at the issue of sustainability and attempting to utilize our resources across the system to provide a broader range in health care both at the community and at the front end, preventative side that could reduce the need for the more expensive traditional care. To that extent, a disproportionate amount of funding relative to past practice has gone towards the long-term care area as well as the home care area. There has been a signi ficant amount of resources on the basis that if we can keep people healthy and out of those institutions then we have done a service.

The issue of sustainability has been addressed specifically by the Fyke commission in Saskatchewan that has recommended, for example, as a matter of sustainability, that dozens of hospitals be shut down in Saskat chewan and that only regional health centres and I am ju st going from memory-in something like, I think, 15 locations be maintained, which would be a dramatic and a significant shift. The premise on the basis of Fyke is that is all that the system can support. We have not, and we are not adopting that particular initiative.

Manitoba has never been overly institu tionalized, not certainly to the extent of, for example, Saskatchewan. Frankly, that particular move, the ju ry is out in terms of whether in fact it enhances any kind of saving to particular communities. So we are faced with the prospect of evolving the system away from an acute-care system into a more community-based system, which we are trying to do in a variety of means and a variety of methods. Some of the initiatives, for example, in the diabetes strategy are geared towards that.

Some of the initiatives in terms of some of the other preventative measures we have outlined are geared towards that. The issue of increasing costs across the system, we have tried to focus a bit on the phar maceuticals. As I indicated earlier, we identified

2568 LEGJSLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 200 1 that as the single biggest cost driver in the system. That is across the country. It is not ju st confined to Manitoba. It is clear it is a significant cost driver. We are attempting to look at a variety of options in terms of how we can best manage these costs. As I have put it publicly and other wise, what we want to do is to provide the greatest amount of coverage in terms of pharmaceuticals to the greatest number of individuals-that is our goal- wh ile at the same time somehow keeping costs from continuing to rise at literally double-digit levels.

Across the board we are in a difficult situation vis-a-vis other ju risdictions, and the attraction of professionals and the competition between this jurisdiction and other ju risdictions. We clearly cannot compete on all fronts, but where we can we will compete in order to retain professionals here. The overall issue of sustain ability is going to be tied up, in my view, in how we develop and manage over the next few years in terms of our resource allocation.

One of the reasons we are going on the Pan Am model is to try to see if we can effect some efficiencies in the system to do more surgeries for effectively less dol lars and therefore achieve two goals. Whether we can do that, we are confident we can, but other ju risdictions are trying other models. We are doing some models.

We are still doing contracting with private surgical, and we will be able to see, as well as having the ongoing institutional, we will be able to compare and see how we are doing vis-a-vis the comparisons to see how we are doing. *( 15: 40) Some jurisdictions are suggesting that they are going to go exclusively private sector as a means to decrease costs. Studies show that is not going to decrease costs. We also know that going that route generally means proceeding towards a co-payment of some kind that offsets the cost. I note that very often for example it is suggested that we go the French model as in France.

It is often held up by particular individuals as the way to go. The French model, as I understand it, has an 80% coverage and 20 percent is left to the individu al to pay for. That has not generally been the orientation of where we are going, but it has been suggested by some observers that that is what we should do. I think we prefer not to go that route but it certainly has been suggested as an option.

It does not seem like a lot if one is talking about, for example, cataract surgery where 20 percent would maybe amount to about $1 00, but if one is talking about open-hea rt surgery or a majo r chronic illness, 20 percent can amount to a significant sum of money. Our costs as a percentage, it is quit e clear, have increased. We do not intend for it to increase at those kinds of levels.

We are chal lenged on both sides, by not ju st the members opposite, by the public, to maintain ourselves within significant cost ranges and at the same time fund as many programs as possible and fund almost all of the difficulties. It is a tough balancing act, and it is a balancing act. The member appreciates that and recognizes that. We are attempting to, as the member indicated earlier, proceed on a re gionalization model. We are trying to move towards a model that sees better efficiencies and better account ability between the Department of Health and the regions. We intend to proceed in that area.

We also intend to proceed on the community side as an offset to the rather increasing costs in the acute care sector. We are going to attempt to control costs in areas where we can control costs while still providing services. The most notable example is our attempts to deal with the phar maceuticals costs that have increased so dramatically. This is all compounded by a situation where we are in acute shor tages of personnel across the field, and that then makes any kind of cost-containment measures very difficult if we are attempting to compete. So it is a balancing act.

We ha ve prioritized the community side across the spectrum. I think a lot of our initiatives are very clearly aimed towards that. We have not forgotten the acute care side obviously and we have attempted to sustain funding along that line. We are under taking some additional measures that have not been undertaken before, specifically, enhanced day surgeries across the spectrum in many cases outside of hospitals to try to effect more services. We will continue to work on that basis.

June 4, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2569 As it relates to the specific RHAs and some of the RHAs, there are significant challe nges out there. The member referenced full-time work being difficult to acquire. I agree. It has been something we have been attempting to remedy. We have gotten a tiny bit better, but we have got a long way to go in that regard. The question of overworked nurses, for example, can only be addressed in several ways. Lessen the workload through providing less patients, that is not likely to happen. It then means expanded number of staff which obviously then means increased costs.

It also can mean a reallocation of the provision of services, something the Member for Portage Ia Prairie referenced tangentially in his comments when he talked about training and having more health care aides, et cetera. We are looking at a whole variety of matters relating to this, and I would be interested in any of the member's suggestions. Mr. Derkach: Although the m1mster talks about what he is attempting to do, I guess my bottom line position is that Manitobans do not know what the minister's or the Government's plan is in an overall sense.

When you talk to the regional health authorities, they do not give us a very good indication of wha t direction the minister is taking health in. So I think there is a void here in terms of communicating with Manitobans where we as a Province are going at the present time in terms of our vision and our plan for the future for this province.

The minister, I know, is committed to doing the best job that he can with respect to the delivery of health care, but I believe his whole government plan is somewhat suspect because they do not share with Manitobans what the long-term vision for health care is in this province. If we look at the regional health auth orities and talk to personnel at the regional health authorities, I think it is true to say that most of the regional health authorities find their people overworked.

I think there are some challenges there as well, but, on the other hand, we are seeing that the costs are escalating in almost every area. I will wait till the show is over, Mr. Chair. When the show is over, I will continue. An Honour able Member: Go ahead . The show is over. Mr. Derkach: The reason I mention this is that I believe this is a very serious issue, the area of escalating costs, the areas of diminished ser vices. We do not see that yet.

If you talk to Manitobans right now, they will tell you, my own family will tell you that, if they go to the hospital, or they go to receive services, whether it is the local hospital or elsewhere, the y are looked after. I do not think that has cha nged from what it was two years ago or three years ago. Generally speaking, Manitobans feel that their serious health care needs are looked after in a respectable way. I believe what we do see, though, is that the ability of regions is somewha t hampered in delivering the kinds of services that the people there require.

So we find Manitobans finding themselves in ambulances on the road to the large centres, and mainly it is Winnipeg. There are services that can be provided in some of our regions, and we should be looking at those things very seriously in terms of how we could provide services closer to home. The minister talks about community-based services and primary care. I think we can go one step further. I know it may be expensive, but all tertiary services do not have to be delivered in the city of Winni peg. I know tha t Brandon is somewhat of a regional centre. Dauphin is a lesser centre than Brandon.

I think that we have got a population in this province that requires to be served in other regions as well. There are minor surgeries that can take place outside of the city of Winn ipeg and should be taking place. I think in an overall sense it would decrease costs to our system. There are physicia ns who can deliver those services. * (15: 50) I know, for example, in my community the surgical theatre, or operating room, was taken out because we could not prov ide the anaesthetists and we could not find enough work for them in a local area of that nature.

I think if we were to look at centres where centres could be provid ing specific kinds of medical services beyond the primary care, that would alleviate some of the pressures here in Win nipeg and

2570 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 200 1 would also alleviate some of the stress that we have in the hospitals in Winnipeg in tenns of hallway medicine. It is not the minister's fault that we have hallway medicine, it is the way the system has evolved over time. We have fairly sophistic ated hospitals, if you look at Wi nkler or Dauphin or Minnedosa or Brandon, who, I think, can provide services over and above what they are doing now. The other issue that I have of concern is the one of emergency services.

At the present time whenever we have a patient that needs to come in to Winnipeg from our rural areas, the only means of transportation that is allowed is the ambulance. Yet in many cases those patients do not require an ambulance. But at the end of the day, unless if it is an interfacility transfer authorized by the hospital and there are conditions applied, and I am not going to try to recite what those conditions are, the patient ends up paying for the cost. Many, many patients have come to us and asked us: Why is it that I am forced to take an ambulance?

Yet we know that a stretcher service would cost about half of what the ambulance service costs and could provide the service to those people who require it and who do not require the ambulance service. When I speak to people in the regions, they tell me that through the department of hig hways and transportation you cannot get a licence to operate a stretcher service outside of the city of Winnipeg. That is bizarre. We have a two-class system. I am not saying this is the minister's problem, because that happened long before this minister was in ch arge of this department.

I think that that is an issue that needs to be addressed and changed. The other issue has to do with emergency services personnel. There are volunteers in rural Manitoba who would work in the ambulance service. However, when you look at how we restrict them in tenns of the hours that they work, in tenns of what we demand from them, in tenns of upgrading and keeping up their skills, yet we pay nothing for it, it leads us to only one conclusion: That is that we have not allowed for the volunteer system to emerge in our rural communities. We have actually gone the other way, discouraged it.

Now what we are faced with is a system where we have to train professionals in the field of emergency services, which one more time drives up the costs for the regional health authority. Right now the Marquette Regional Health Authority is training all of their ambu lance staff to a particular level. I think it is called a paramedic level. Every ambulance in the Marquette Regional Health Authority will have people at the paramedic qual ified level.

Maybe that is a nice ideal, but if you look at the cost, I am not sure whether the Minister of He alth is prepared to advance those funds, not only to train these people, but indeed to have them work in the system. Because that is a very expensive cost. So I am wondering where the study is at. We used to operate a system without the need of co-ordinators in every regional health authority . Today we have added another layer of bureaucracy which co-ordinates all of the emergency services, not that that is not a good idea, but it is an additional cost that was not there before.

No one has taken a look at the provision of a Jess-expensive service to people who do not need necessarily the services of an ambulance. I spoke with the administration, and I spoke with the board members. They simply tell us that Manitoba Health is not prepared to move in that area of providing or at least allowing stretcher services to be used in rural Manitoba. They are only allowed to operate in the city of Winni peg. I do not know if this is right or not. Maybe the minister can tell me. But these are some areas that I think there can be cost savings.

These are areas where I think the minister has an oppor tunity to show some vision, to show some forward thinking and to show Manitobans that he does have a plan in trying to address these ever escalating costs, not only for the system, but also for individuals. I can cite a case of a woman who needed to be transported from a hospital in rural Manitoba to Brandon to get a hea rt pacer put in. At the end of the day, when all was said and done, her ambulance bill was $2,200. Now, here is a woman who is living on a fixed income.

She does not have savings, or a lot of savings, and basically said: I do not know how I am going to pay this bill. I asked her whether or not she thought she needed the ambulance. She said: No, but my doctor insisted on it. I said, well, so,

June 4, 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 257 1 could you have taken a lesser service? She said: I probably could have gone in a car or a vehicle that I could have reclined in and tha t would have been fine. But she is just traumatized by the fact that she did not even expect to receive a bill of that kind and she did not have the insurance to cover that. I think there are cases and cases and cases of these kinds of issues tha t the minister has probably had a chance to discuss with the critic for Health, but I am raising these with the minister because they are localized.

I think they fall into the same kinds of issues tha t the Member for Dauph in-Roblin (Mr. Struthers) sees in his area, because we kind of overlap in terms of the regional health authorit ies tha t we share. I have heard it from the Parkland Regional Health Authority in that way as well. So I guess I can only ask, and I know the minister took a significant amount of time to te ll me what he is doing in the other areas, but just specifically, can the minister give me some indication of whether or not he has put together a serious plan or a plan of action that will address these very elementary needs?

They are basic. They are not complicated. They are not issues that should require a commission or a consulting firm to come and spend a year to give the minister some advice. I think the simple extension of stretcher services to rural Manitoba would be a huge benefit to the individuals, maybe not necessarily the people who run the ambulance system, but indeed to individuals who need that service in the rural part of our province . It is almost incomprehe nsible that we would not have that service available in rural Manitoba. Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Chair person, I thank the member for his comments and his suggestions and advice in this regard. The member might be aware that with respect to EMS services, upon becoming the Government, we received prompt ly a report that had been commissioned by the previous government with respect to dealing with EMS right across the province. The report had something like, if memory serves me correctly, 22 recommendations. What we did was we canvassed the recommendations with the regions.

We sent the report out back to the various municipalities, RHAs and other bodies and asked them for their advice and recommen dations on implementation, because we wanted to move. * (1 6:00) We picked the most significant recommen dations that were addressed across the system, and we began proceeding to fund it. Those included provisions for a co-ordinated response centre, the upgrading of the communications equipment across the province, the provision of additional rolling stock or new equipment and ambulances and enhanced training across the system.

The debate with respect to volunteers and stretcher services has been a long one and is a complicated one and has been something tha t has been an ongoing discussion across the province for a number of years. Mr. Derkach: The minister is not giving me any answers, though. I know it has been in discussion for a long time. It was in discussion, I guess, when we were still in government, but I think time is moving on and this is an issue that requires some action. It is not something that needs to be studied and studied and studied.

I think what we are seeing is the development of vested interests, and I say that from some personal experience where we have individuals who want to protect their turf, as it were, and certainly are not amenable to looking at alternatives that might be of benefit to the patient and the client of the system, and that is what worries me somewhat. I want to tell the minister that if he were to move ahead in this area and provide alternatives, and provide options for people, especially in rural Manitoba where there are special challe nges, and the Member for Dauphin-Roblin (Mr.

Struthers) can relate to this because people in that area have the same challen ges in terms of getting those important services at a cost tha t is affordable to them. Those are issues that are indeed important to people in my part of the world. So I ask the minister to-I mean, he can give me a runaround answer on this if he likes, but I think the time has come for some action rather than simply saying: Well, we know it is a problem and it is out there, and we are going to take a look at it.

2572 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 200 1 This leads me to the next area, and that is that one of the biggest killers of people in my area is cardiac arrest. If you are not going to get that patient to the hospital very quickly you are going to lose him. I can cite numerous occasions where people have lost their life because of the fact that they could not get to the service. The minister has intervened through his department on a number of occasions.

As a matter of fact, there was a letter in the paper thanking the minister on an action that was taken by the department and specifically, I think, the thanks went to the minister because, had that patient not got the services, he would have died. That is one of the biggest fears that people have in our area is the fact that if they have a heart attack, the chance of survival is not nearly what it might be in a larger urban centre. So tha t in itself is an area of concern.

We have had situations where doctors have phoned from our hospitals to try and get patients who are serious cases into a Winnip eg hospital and have been reje cted, have been denied, even though a bed has been available. They have been denied on the basis that that bed may be required by somebody in Winnipeg. That clearly says to me that the system is treating people in different parts of this province differently.

I think that is an area where the Department of Health centrally must intervene and must give an indication that, regardless of where a patient is, anyone who requires an emer gency service should have that service available to him, regardless of where that person is, whether it is in northern Manitoba or in the rural part of our province that is remote to the city. So these are areas of significant concern to us. The other service that is of concern in my area again, and I speak I think on behalf of a Jot of rural areas, is the ther apy pro vision of services after a cardiac patient comes home.

I know people in urban Manitoba, in Winnip eg, cannot seem to relate to the fact that Dauphin is two hours from my community, Br andon is two hours from my community. If you are going to have a service in Dauphin and in Brandon, you need one in between so that a patient does not have to drive for two hours who has ju st come out of cardiac surgery, for example, to get therapy. That happens so many times. We did try to address that whi le we were in government. I think we made some progress in that respect, not nearly enough.

I think it is again part of a larger picture, part of an overall plan on how regional health authorities can address major issues within a region and work co operatively with the Department of Health to be able to address those very significant needs. With an aging population, this becomes even more critical to us. I would not mind if the minis ter could give me some indication of whether or not these are issues that are important to him and whether or not they are issues that he has a plan for and whether he has addressed any of them with the regional health author ities. Mr.

Chomiak: The member makes a number of very valid suggestions. I could probably use the balance of the entire Estimates process in attempting to specifically respond to those. I will not, because I know there are other questions and other matters to be dealt with. I will deal with some of the issues specifically that the member has raised. The cardiac issue is, I just want to separate the two issues. I attended the last conference of the EMS providers.

It is very clear that ju st as there is a higher level of care that is expected in our hospitals and all of our institutions, there is a higher level of care that is now expected within EMS. The member referencing the cardiac is a case in point, that in fact the ability of EMS personnel to provide care to the patient, partic ularly a cardiac patient, is significant in terms of the period of time between some distances and ability to get to a hospital. So there is a need and a demand to have increased capability on the part of EMS personnel to provide that service.

With respect to the member's reference to cardiac patients outside of Winnipeg accessing facilities in Winnip eg, we have discussed that in the past. On every occasion when the member has raised it, I have gone and inquired as to the fact what the situation is. I have been informed that the policies have not cha nged and that they continue to be the same as were present bef ore. One of the things that is being looked at with respect to provision, for example, of the central bed registry long promised, hopefully instituted, is that it will provide for instan taneous-] mean, we do not have centralized

June 4, 200 1 LEG ISLA TlVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2573 access to patient beds in the city of Winnip eg, and that is a prob lem. That is a problem when you are phoning from outside of Winni peg and you have to phone different hospitals. That does not make sense. There are proposals right now to look at that particular issue. To look at that par ticular issue will require some changes around the system in the city of Winnip eg. An Honourable Member: Available in the States. Mr. Cho miak: The member says available in the States.

The members opposite had that same dif ficulty in terms of the ICU changes, critical care changes that were put in place. There are different conflicting agendas with respect to that. But there is no doubt that we are going to have to have one way or another a centralized system that will permit more ready access and more appropriate access to beds in Winnipeg for access. The member talked about the issue of providing services outside of Winnipeg.

I think it is generally accepted that it would make sense to do more services at regional centres. l do know tha t there was a significant report that was put out in the mid-'70s about repatriating surgeries outside of Winnipeg to rural centres. l keep asking the department about that report, about the ramifications. I understand that it ju st could not be done at the time, but there is nothing that suggests that the ability to do en hance services, particularly at regional centres, ought not to be undertaken.

One of the reasons for the enhanced family residency program is it will permit additional opportunities to provide for those services. The issue of the utilization of stretcher services, you know, it is a continuing problem, and the member can probably te ll from my reaction. For example, there are some communities where the hospitals are in danger of closure because of recent upgrades in terms of the requirements for certain facilities, for example X-ray, et cetera, to be available on a 24- hour, 7-day basis. Other-wise, the acute care facility can no longer be open.

Those are new regulations that have come into effect that make it very dif ficult sometimes, and we are seeing that across the system in terms of need and demand. The member was saying the woman in question who required the pace maker was by doctor's orders by ambulance. Far be it for me to countermand that kind of a- the member is suggesting he is not suggesting tha t and I realize that, but there are provisions. There is no doubt that the provision of stretcher ser vices have been of significance and can be of significance, and we are aware of that. Mr.

Derkach: Just for the minister's infor mation, the doctor had no choice but to recommend the ambulance because a stretcher

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-2-40
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 2nd hansardpdf 40.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	3c8efe64738b70b3c669adf86eaaaf1f84886ac4

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