Manitoba Hansard — 19 January 1984 (Sitting 164, 32nd Legislature, 2nd Session)

32-2-164

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31-32 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable D. Jame• 'llalding Speaker VOL. XXXI No. 164 - 2:00 p.m., THURSDAY, 19 JANUARY, 1984. Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer. Prottint» of Alllnil-

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Hon. Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert {Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Q.C., Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Hon. Mary Beth DOWNE'.� James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon.

Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J. Frank KOSTYRA,Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Hon. Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Hon. Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW. Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Th ompson La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park Th e Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake Lac du Bonnet St.

Vital Party NOP NOP NOP PC PC PC NOP IND NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP PC PC PC NOP NOP PC NOP PC PC PC NOP NOP NOP PC PC NOP PC NOP PC NOP NOP PC PC PC PC PC PC NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP PC NOP NOP NOP PC NOP PC NOP NOP NOP NOP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 19 January, 1984. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . MI NISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Housing. HON. J. BUCKlASCHUK: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to announce that we are introducing five-year mortgages at 10 percent as an extension of the Affordable New Homes Program launched last year and continued under the auspices of the Manitoba Jobs Fund. Mr. Speaker, this morning I met with members of the home building industry to inform them that "affordable new homes" will again be available to put new home purchases within reach of more Manitobans and to create jobs and construction and related industries.

This will provide a stimulus to our economy and at the same time help to maintain Manitoba's improving housing performance. The previous Homes in Manitoba Program was a major success. Of the 3,800 housing units available for sale during the 1983 calendar year, approximately 1,000 were approved mortgages under Affordable New Homes. The impact of this program was responsible for a 300 percent increase in total housing starts for 1983, when compared to 1982. I would like to praise the Manitoba Home Builders and building trade unions for their co-operation in making Manitoba's housing initiatives such a success.

The demonstrated success of business, labour and government working together was an important reason for the Jobs Fund to take this additional step. "Affordable New Homes" will offer 90 percent financing to purchasers of new homes at a fixed interest rate of 10 percent for a five-year term, amortized over a maximum of 25 years. The home is to be used as a principal residence, and a maximum unit price of $68,000, including land, will be accepted. Home buyers who were not homeowners as of December 31, 1983 must complete an accepted offer to purchase before March 31, 1984. There are no maximum income qualifications.

Affordable mortgages will be open and amortized over a maximum of 25 years. Additional payments against the principal, up to and including the entire loan may be paid off at any time without penalty. In the event of a sale, the mortgage is assumable by a qualified buyer. These are not subsidized mortgages, rather they are guaranteed at the 10 percent rate through an innovative use of the provincial borrowing authority. To qualify, a unit must have its foundations in place by May 15, 1984. This applies to any new single family detached, semi-detached or condominium housing unit which has never been occupied.

It is estimated that at least 150 new housing starts will be initiated or completed as a result of this affordable new homes initiative, creating some 300 person-years of employment for Manitobans, and generating close to $1 million in tax revenue. These homes and jobs will add to the impressive totals already achieved in the housing industry with Manitoba Jobs Fund support. The Affordable New Homes Program will greatly benefit new home buyers and construction-related industries. It will also stimulate retail sales of appliances, furnishings and other household goods and services.

In a sentence, Affordable New Homes means new homes, new jobs and a stronger economy in Manitoba. llllR. SPEAKER: The Honourab le Member for Assiniboia. MR. R. NORDMM: Mr. Speaker, we on this side are very pleased to hear of, particularly, the mortgage rates that the government is coming down with and the help that they are about to give to the housing industry, but we do question the numbers that they have laid forward as to the good that has been done. I do want to contest the numbers that they bring forward.

I think the Canadian Home Ownership Stimulation Plan was largely responsible for the freeing-up of existing rental accommodations. An estimated 5,000 Winnipeg renter householders made use of the grant to purchase existing units. So really if they' re bragging about the fact that the housing industry has been stimulated by their actions, I think they are not quite well-founded - (Interjection) - not ail of it. Sure, they're responsible for some. Take credit for what you do but don't take credit for something that you don't do. MR. A. BROWN: They like to ride on the Federal bandwagon. MR . R. NORDMM>t.

You talk about the increase in your housing starts. If you look back to 1982, that was the lowest ever recorded by CMHC. So any increase would be welcome. The record of this government in housing starts during the first two years is about 10,000 units less than what it was of the previous government in their first two years of office. Nevertheless, Mr. Speaker, we on this side appreciate and welcome any initiative to stimulate the housing industry, not only to accommodate the housing area, but to the building trades per se. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Mr.

Speaker, I beg leave to file the Annual Report, Returns under The Controverted Elections Act for the period January 1, 1983 to December 31, 1983, consisting of a return from the 5600

Thursday, 19 January, 1984 Court of Appeal and a return from the Court of Queen's Bench indicating there had been no action or process under the act during that period of time. MR. SPEAKER: ,Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills ... INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before oral questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery. We have 12 students of Grade 11 standing from the Churchill High School, under the direction of Mr. Pante!. These students are from the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Community Services.

There are 53 students of Grade 9 standing from the Acadia Junior High School. They are under the direction of Mr. Smith and Mrs. Penty. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for St. Norbert. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. OR AL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. Payroll tax MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Premier. Recently two major national organizations, the Vanier Institute of the Family and the Federation of National Trade Unions, have come out publicly critical of the payroll tax.

In fact, they have indicated that in their view the payroll tax has unfairly penalized companies that are labour-intensive and force companies to additional mechanization, thus destroying jobs. Will the Premier now admit that his government has made a mistake in introducing the payroll tax, the most damaging, most disincentive move to job creation this province has ever seen? And will he now tell us that his government will remove that payroll tax as soon as possible? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I would certainly like to read the excerpts that the Honourable Leader of the Opposition is appearing to be reading from because, Mr. Speaker, those observations would be far far off the actual mark. First, insofar as unemployment is concerned, Manitoba has decreased its ranking insofar as unemployment from the third lowest in Canada to the second lowest in Canada. 2. Manitoba's record in respect to job retention by all independent statistical observations is amongst the best in Canada. 3.

All objective reporting sources have indicated that bankruptcies in Manitoba, business bankruptcies, will be amongst the lowest of any province in Canada during the year, 1983. 4. Mr. Speaker, the indications are that our increase by way of retail sales in the 1983 rate of growth is the best in the whole of Western Canada. 5601 In short, Mr. Speaker, Manitoba's ranking by way of economic indices has moved from amongst the lowest during the period of 1978-1981 to, by way of economic indices, amongst the best in Canada. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, I'm sure that the more than 100 people who were thrown out of work yesterday due to the closure of Spiroll Kipp Kelly, or the more than 250 people just a week ago who were thrown out of work because of the closure of GWG, or the people who were thrown out of work because of the closure of Kimberly-Clark and Victoria Leather and the Shell Oil Refinery . . . MR. SPEAKER: Question. MR. G. FILMON: . . . you will find great comfort in the Premier's statistics.

My question is: Will this government start looking at ways in which they remove roadblocks and disincentives to employment, and start to look at positive ways of getting the private sector moving into real job creation again in this province? HON. H. PAWLEY: �:1r. Speaker, obviously the Leader of the Opposition prefers not to examine the actual calculations, person by person, of increased employment insofar as the past year. If he did, Mr. Speaker, he would note that there are 19,000 additional Manitobans working this year from a year ago. I regret, Mr.

Speaker, rather than the Leader of the Opposition and honourable members across the way, not from time-to-time announcing the benefits of Manitobans working together shoulder-to-shoulder in their communities and through the business community and with the Provincial Government and ensuring an increase by way of employment in this province, that the Leader of the Opposition and honourable members across the way prefer to be the knockers. Mr. Speaker, they can continue to be the knockers, but this government will be the doers. MR. G.

FILMON: I wonder if the First Minister's reference to the doers means that he is going to be adding to the Civil Service in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that there are now 20,000 more unemployed Manitobans than there were when his government took office, and in view of the fact that a representative of the garment industry in Manitoba said recently, and I quote Mr. Gary Steiman, "Part of the blame .. .

" - in reference to the closures that have been occurring in GWG and other manufacturing enterprises - "Part of the blame rests with the provincial payroll tax, pension legislation and other Manitoba-made hurdles," he said. When will this government stop introducing more hurdles that inhibit job creation and that prevent people from investing in this province, and start working on real job creation activities instead of just quoting statistics? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I know that the Leader of the Opposition is touchy on statistics because they don't bear out the untruths that the Leader of the Opposition is promoting in this House. Neither, Mr. Speaker, does the Leader of the Opposition ;-efer - and

Thursday, 19 January, 1984 I am sure the Leader of the Opposition would not refer for a moment to the fact that Manitoba's population during the past year has increased at a rate higher than any other year in the past 20 years in the Province of Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, in respect to the question of the post secondary education and health tax, let me assure the Leader of the Opposition that, although the imposition of any form of levying or taxation is painful insofar as any government and certainly this government, that approach is preferable to poll taxes, is preferable to user fees, is preferable to per diems, is preferable to 20 percent and 30 percent increases in health insurance premiums that has been happening in Conservative provinces in this country. We have no such intention on this side to impose those kinds of regressive taxes. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FIL.MON: Mr. Speaker, if it hadn't been for this government's decision to increase its spending by 19 percent in its first year and 18 percent in its second year, we wouldn't need the payroll tax and a!I of the expenditures that they have been doing. MR. SPEAKER: Question. MR. G. FIL.MON: Mr. Speaker, my question . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance is being just as persuasive today as he was with the Winnipeg Labour Council the other day. A MEMBER: That's right. MR .

SPEAKER: Question. Workers Compensation Board MR. G. fllMON: Mr. Speak er, my question is to the Minister responsible for Environment and Workplace Safety and Health. Can he confirm that yesterday he announced to members of the Canadian Manufacturers' Association a 53 percent increase in Workers Compensation fees for employers to pay in this province as of this coming year? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of the Environment. HON. G. LECUYER: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the honourable member would repeat the question. MR . G. FllMON: Mr.

Speaker, my question is: did the Minister yesterday announce a 53 percent increase projected for Workers Compensation fees in this province in the forthcoming year? HON . G. LECUYER: No, Mr. Speak er, I did not. MR. G. FILMON: My question to the Minister is: is his department intending to increase the Workers Compensation fees in the forthcoming year for the employers of Manitoba? HON . G. LECUYER: Mr. Speaker, there will be an announcement to that effect in due course. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, my question to the First Minister is: Will he implore his Ministers to stop bringing forth increases in fees to employers that continue to add greater hurdles and greater roadblocks to the task that all of us want to see here of job creation, of real job opportunities? MR. SPEAICER: Order please. MR. G. FILMON: Will he stop burdening the private sector investor , so that once again we can get Manitobans back to work? A MEMBER: Who's going to pay for it? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. Economic Review of Manitoba MR . f. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister.

I wonder if the First Minister would confirm that the Conference Board of Canada, in their November 1983 report on Manitoba, states that the gross domestic product of the Province of Manitoba in 1983 will be the eighth in Canada. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I intend to as I did the other day, and not accept selective questions from the honourable member, but bring into this House a full comprehensive report as to projections in response to the honourable member's question. MA. SPEAICEA: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, we're finding that the figures that the First Minister presented the other day were very selective the way they put them together and maneuvered them. Mr. Speaker, I am holding up a report. I would ask the First Minister if he would check the same report and find that the Conference Board of Canada predicts the Gross National Product - would he confirm that they predict that the Gross National Product for 1984 for Manitoba will be eighth in the country? I wonder if the First Minister could confirm that? MR . SPEAKER: Order please.

I'm not sure that when members read from a document or a publication that it is proper to ask the government to comment on them. After all the Conference Board in Canada is not within the jurisdiction of this government and it cannot be responsible for what is printed therein. The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. 5802

Thursday, 19 Janual'}'i 1984 MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, Sir, and with all due respect , I would like to suggest that the figures that were presented just to us in this House by the First Minister, Sir, were from the Conference Board of Canada and - no, they were presented in the House by the First Minister when he made a statement and at the bottom of the statement it said, Sir, figures came from the Conference Board of Canada and Statistics Canada. Mr.

Speaker, the First Minister chooses to take whatever figures he likes to from the Conference Board and from Statistics Canada and present them to this House and comment on them continually in this House. Sir, I am only asking questions from the same report. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'll be pleased to provide the honourable member with further information pertaining to statistical comparisons re economic indicators. It's rather interesting, Mr.

Speaker, when honourable members were in government, including the honourable member himself who has just spoken and the former leader of the Conservative Party in this province, they spent a great deal of time pooh-poohing the Conference Board figures. It is interesting to note that they have changed their attitude towards the adversary of such calculations, Mr. Speaker. A MEMBER: Hear, hear. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, I have another question, but I would also like to make the observation that the previous government or the government, when they were opposition, thought that the Conference Board figures were the best ones that were ever put out. MR. SPEAKER: Question. Retail Sales MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the First Minister - the First Minister commented on the retail sales of the province, Sir. The total retail sales of the province, Sir, include a 38 percent increase in car sales in the Province of Manitoba.

Would the First Minister tell us why department store sales in the Province of Manitoba are seventh in Canada? Department sales in the Province of Manitoba were seventh in Canada. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, the total retail sales as I indicated before to the honourable member, and I think that one indeed must feel a certain amount of pride as a Manitoban in the fact that retail sales in Manitoba have increased, have increased at a higher rate in Manitoba than British Columb ia, Alberta or Saskatchewan. The best in Western Canada.

I'm not speaking about cars or washers or TVs or department stores as versus all other nondepartment sales. I'm talking about retail sales in total, Mr. Speaker. I'm proud as a Manitoban of those calculations and 5603 the success that Manitobans have achieved this past year and I'm sure the honourable member surely would want to join with me in being pleased with the success that has been demonstrated by Manitobans during this past year. MR. F. JOHNSTON: I wonder, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Well, Mr.

Speaker, the Premier obviously made what the members think was a funny and they're going to act like children about it all day. That's up to them. MR. SPEAKER: Question. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the First Minister would confirm to this House that the retail sales in the department stores in this province account for close to 80 percent of the retail sales in the province. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I would certainly want to check out that in::irmation. I'm talking in terms of total retail sales. In case the honC'urable member didn't hear, total retail sales in Manitoba.

I just note that the document I filed the other day for the honourable member's benefit showed, that in the period 1979-81 under the stewardship of the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek and other members across the way, that the increase in Manitobans' retail sales was 10.4 as opposed to a 10.6 percent increase in Canada. Pretty well comparable. But in the period 1981-1983, Manitobans enjoyed an increase in retail sales of 7.4 percent to a significantly lower increase at the Canada level of 5.6 percent which is demonstrating the fact that Manitobans are purchasing. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for The Pas. Guaranteed Loans Program MR. H. HARAPIAK: Mr. Speaker, I noticed that in a recent press release that the Guaranteed Loans Program which was due to be phased out in 1984 has been extended. I would like to ask the Minister of Agriculture how effective this program has been and why it was extended. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: I thank the honourable member for ' ie ques tion. Yes, we have extended the Loan Guarantee Program until the end of 1986, Mr.

Speaker. ·i"he program I should mention, although it was derided by honourable members opposite who said that they couldn't find one farmer who would benefit by this program , over 400 farmers have participated in the program and we have guaranteed over $22 million on this program to date. I should also mention, Mr. Speaker, we have extended this program because we believe that farmers are not out of trouble with the disastrously high interest rates that they were faced with during those periods of time

Thursday, 19 January, 1984 that the members opposite were in office. Farmers are not out of the woodwork yet and we recognize that and we want to support them as best we can. This is one of the programs that we are using, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. Potash - possible development in Manitoba MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I direct the question to the Minister of Energy and Mines and ask him about the possibility of creating some real jobs in the Potash industry and why he's been doing it. I ask it specifically in light of the statements coming out in the last few days by Mr.

Eric Ectol, President of the Saskatchewan Off-Shore Exporting Agency, who indicates a rise in potash exports during the year of 1983 and more specifically statements attibuted to a Mr. Clifford Wright, Chairman of the Board of the Potash Corporation of Saskatchewan who makes this statement, that 1986 would be a good time for any country or province to get into the potash production, what is the Minister of Energy and Mines doing about bringing into production the first potash mine in Manitoba since last we met? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr.

Speaker, I'm pleased to be able to deal with that question. The Government of Manitoba is pursuing a whole set of options relating to potash development. We have been pursuing possibilities of export sales in Third World countries, a possibility that was not explored by the previous administration. We are also pursuing discussions with companies in North America. The potash industry suffered a very serious recession and decline over the last two years. In fact, Saskatchewan will only be operating at 75 percent of capacity, Mr. Speaker, in 1984, despite some other statements read by the Member for Lakeside.

So we are pursuing a whole set of options, Mr. Speaker. If indeed the world recovery continues - and it's been starting mostly in the United States - but a lot will depend on Third World developments.

Even Saskatchewan has found that it's had to go outside of the private cartel that sells potash and deal directly with the Chinese government in the hope of trying to establish some longer-run contracts, moves that were taken by the previous New Democratic Party administration in Saskatchewan, curtailed by the Conservative administration when it was elected, then renewed lately in the face of market situations, they are picking up. What we are doing, we have sent emissaries out to these countries about a year ago to explore those markets. We hope that they might firm up.

These are long-term developments; they require a lot of seed work. Had the work been done three and four years ago, we would be in a better position with respect to Third World countries. Hopefully, as the North American market improves, we may be in a situation, Mr. Speaker, to do something here in relation to the North American market but those require a whole set of developments that may strengthen over the next year. If that's the case, we should be in a position - and I would hope we might be in a position - to do something about it. But there are a lot of variables out there, Mr.

Speaker, and it's important for an administration to deal with all of the options and not just foreclose their options to one, as the previous administration did. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, this Minister's concern about the Third World countries is noteworthy. I just hope that it doesn't mean that he's part of a government that is turning this province into a third-country province. Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minister, what particular company, if any, is the government having or is his department having negotiations with at this time with respect to potash development in Manitoba? HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr.

Speak er, I might pass comment on the comment from the Member for Lakeside. I think the people of Manitoba must have felt that Manitoba was becoming a Third World country during their administration, between 1977 and 1981, because so many Manitobans left the province when they were in office. Mr. Speaker, as the Premier has pointed out, the people are coming back home now that the NOP is governing Manitoba. Mr. Spea ker, we are having discussions with companies. I cannot reveal the names of the companies at present.

I believe that the Member for Lakeside would know that type of negotiations and discussions must be held in confidence because there are some competitive aspects to them. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. Health care system - hospitals MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Minister of Health.

It rises out of a series of articles that were printed by the Winnipeg Free Press in the last 10 days of 1983 and the early days of 1984, pointing to? serious range of critical problems in the province's health care system and particulary in the city's hospital system; criticism which received attestation and documentation from a number of health professionals. My question to the Minister is this: Has the Minister assigned somebody in his office or his department or at the Manitoba Health Services Commission to investigate the charges in those articles? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. l.

DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I'm very pleased to repeat my answer to a repeated question. Any time anyone expresses a concern it is automatically investigated. I reject a statement made by the honourable member that all these charges have been proven. It isn't the case at all. They've talked about a crisis; we've made a comparison with other provinces at other times and we've come out very very good. 5604

Thursday, 19 January, 1984 Now the member previously, in the same Chamber, talked about the loss of life because of underfunding in certain types of beds, in intensive care beds, and I reject that completely; the funding was there. I've stated this in this House. The hospitals had the funding, they just didn't have the staff. They also had the funding to develop the staff, so we reject that. Now we are on top of the situation.

If there is anything that has to be looked at, it is being looked at, but I will repeat - I will repeat - especially with block funding going to these hospitals, that within the amount of money they have, the main responsibility rests with the boards of these hospitals and the administration of these hospitals; and the first responsibility stays and remains with them. The commission is working very closely with them to try to rectify anything that is going wrong, any problem that has to be improved. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, can the Minister advise the House who is carrying out this investigation?

Who at the commission or in his office? What sort of team is involved in checking out the charges and allegations made, not by members on this side of the House, Mr. Speaker, but by the media and by health professionals and by a number, I may say, of health care consumers? Who is carrying out the investigation? What are the terms of reference for that investigation? When will that task force - if such a task force exists - report to the Minister with its findings with respect to those allegations? And further to that, is there professional and public input?

Is there input from professional health groupings and bodies and categories into the investigation that the Minister says is under way? HON. L. DESJARDINS: By the best team that ever existed in Manitoba, yes, there's professional input and they report to the Minister practically every day. MR. l. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, can the Minister advise when he will be able to report to this House and therefore to the people of Manitoba with respect to this professional investigation of those charges? HON. l. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker, I don't intend - and let me get this very straight - I don't intend to have a public inquiry or a task force any time there's any suggestion in the newspaper. Let me make that very clear. This is not the way we react. I'll be ready to discuss with the honourable member, while we discuss the Estimates, I'll be ready to discuss all programs in health care in Manitoba. It will be in due course, the same as we do every year, if you stop ringing bells. MR. L. SHERMAN: A final question for the moment on the subject, Mr. Speaker.

Can the Minister assure this House that the process that he is ostensibly or presumably going through at the present time in preparing his Estimates for 1984- 85 ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. L SHERMAN: My question, Mr.

Speake r, is whether the Minister can assure this House that the process he is presumably going through at the present time in terms of preparing his 1984-1985 Estimates will be predicated to a substantial extent, or at least a significant extent, on the results of the investigations of these charges of shortcomings, failures, weaknesses and difficulties in the hospital system existing at the present time?

In other words, will he complete that investigation, satisfy himself whether those accusations are accurate or not; and if accurate, work consideration, with respect to those charges, into the development of his 1984-85 Estimates? HON. I...

DESJARDINS: it will be predicated on need, on funds available, and on decision of government to see if there will be any new taxes or any source of revenue that you feel that is a Manitoba way to put problems in front of industry; and also the deficit, to see if a decision is made, to increase the deficit that you don't like at all, that you think we should not have any deficit at all. When all that, when we find out the money available from the Federal Government, then this is where the decision will be made to see how much will go to health in general. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, given the fact, Sir, that there is not likely to be any more money; given the fact that nobody on this side - at least not the health critic - has suggested to the Minister that there is more money available, or that there should be more money available, will the Minister make his determinations based on repriorization, reassessment, reevaluation and imaginative leadership in terms of dealing with the health care system and the limited amount of money that is available?

Will he wait to draw some conclusions from this investigation of his and then bring some innovative, creative responses to those difficulties to the determination of his Estimates? Will he concur with this side of the House that additional monies are not likely to be available, and that his challenge is to do what needs to be done within the money he now has? HON. L. DESJARDfNS: Is the honourable member suggesting that we should do away with block funding and go by line? This is something (Interjection) - then that's what the responsibility is. If the member, Mr.

Speaker, says there shouldn't be any more money, and if he advocates block funding, and if block funding is the allowing of funds to the hospitals for them to priorize, now you are telling me - or the member is telling me - that they shouldn't priorize, that it should be the Department of the Minister of Health. That's what I want to know. I want to know what you are requesting. - (Interjection) - MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. l. SHERMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

My colleague, the Honourable Member for Morris and I were not certain, Sir, that we would have the opportunity to respond to questions put to us from the government. We welcome that opportunity. Mr. Speaker, my answer to the Minister's question is "no." He knows I never suggested abandoning the 5605

Thursday, 19 January, 1984 global budget concept. I am asking him, Sir, whether he will take steps , take measures in leadership of the health community in this province to make it possible for his hospital administrators and his health care professionals to work within that global budget in a way that gets more value out of the limited dollars available, and not to plead continually about being limited by dollars. We know he is limited by dollars. He is also apparently limited by imagination, Mr. Speaker. HON. l. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I am way ahead of the honourable member.

I had started that quite a while ago. I started, first of all, by reestablishing a planning and evaluating group in our department that he had completely eliminated. That is the right way to start, to look at somebody that is getting the information; researching and planning, that is being done. There has been ongoing discussions with members of the different hospitals, administrators and members of boards of different hospitals. There is an advisory committee that is being determined, that is being put together for that.

There is a better relationship with the university, the School of Medicine, than ever before. We are in constant contact with the Dean. There is now, besides the regular meetings with the College of Physicians and Surgeons, there are regular meetings with the MMA to discuss things other than fees. There is an ongoing discussion with the nursing - MARN - that will be taking place. There is a very good, as I said, planning team put together. There is evaluation that has been done before where we find that certain programs which were thought to be very very helpful - (Interjection) - You don't want the answer?

All right again; I'm easy. MR. SPEAKER: Order please . The Honourable Member for Morris. Brandon University Music Building MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Firstly, I want to thank the Minister of Health for aborting his answer. Mr. Speake r, I would like to ask the Minister of Education a question.

I would ask whether the University Grants Commission, this week, has accepted without further conditions - and I stress that, without further conditions - the proposal of the Brandon University respecting a now famous School of Music building, such that university can now let contracts and begin construction, and when will that construction begin? A MEMBER: Do the Tories want a bell-ringing course there? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. A MEMBER: Bull's-eye. A MEMBER: No, you're ringing your own bell. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Speaker, I do have to say at the beginning of my remarks that I still wish that the members opposite had not frozen that building; it could have been built three years ago. The students could be in the building, and it would have been built for maybe half or two-thirds of the cost. Their concern is too little and too late.

It's this government that approved the building; it's this government that has committed money for the funding; it's this government that is allowing the Federal Need money and it is this government that has said they can build the building up to a maximum of $4.5 million and if they want to go beyond that and add another million dollars to it, they may do so with the commitment and the understanding that they must raise the money themselves.

It is my understanding that the university is designing the project so that they can build the shell of it within the dollars allocated by the government, that they will undertake the fund-raising and complete the project when they have the funds in hand. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Speaker, I take it from that answer that the university can now let the contract and construction will begin. Maybe the Minister can tell us also, specifically, what amount of money is expected of the University of Brandon to raise themselves?

But I would also ask a second question: Has there been any indication to the government by either the University of Brandon or by individuals, donors, to the School of Music project that because of affairs at the university, including the firing of Dr. Perkins as president, that they will no longer consider offering donations to that project? HON. M. HEMPHlll: Mr. Speaker, the money that is available to the university, the Province of Manitoba has agreed to give them $1,600,000, their previous commitment. We have agreed to give them the Anniversary Grant of $500,000.

Even though they have only raised about $250,000 to date, it is supposed to be $1.00 for $1.00 but we have agreed to give them the $500,000 even though they have not been able to successfully raise that amount; and they are entitled to $1.4 million from the Federal Need Grant. This means that for the $4.5 million project that has been approved, they would have to raise half a million dollars, I think an additional $250,000 from what they have already raised.

Should they decide to build a building that is more expensive than that which has been approved and add, which I think is up to $5 million, they will have to raise that additional money themselves. A MEMBER: Very fair. llllR. C. MANNESS: The Minister answered one of my questions. She made no reference as to whether anybody had made an indication to the government ::is to whether they would be withdrawing any support because of affairs at the university. I would ask the Premier of the Province whether he has received communication by way of letter or any other style from a Mr. Ron Bell, Q.C., Calgary, saying 5606

Thursday, 19 January, 1984 that he is withdrawing his donation of scholarship money from the control of the university because he has lost confidence in the board of governors at that university? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I wouldn't be able to answer the member's question pertaining to whether or not I've received such correspondence. I can indeed check that out, Mr. Speaker. It's interesting that the honourable member appears to have received probably the letter at the same time or in advance of myself. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M.

HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker, I did realize when I sat down that I had only answered one portion of the member's question and I did wish to answer the other portion. I must say that the university has had some difficulty in raising money that really does not have anything to do with the affairs of the university recently. They have always predicted an ability to raise much more money than they have been able to do so, so that their fund raising activities have continued, for years previously, to be far less than those projected and I would like to give you some of that information.

They had approval for a $6 million building a number of years ago. You can build a $6 million building and they said, "We're going to raise $4.5 million." Although the university and the pres ident undertook that commitment, there were no fund-raising activities undertaken by the university until 1982, no fund-raising activities. - (Interjection) - In May of 1982 they had $30,000 and pledges of $193,000.00. In June of 1983, a year later, they had $197,000 with pledges of $284,000.00. They now have cash on hand $250,000, with pledges of, I think, $1 million.

It is clear that they have been projecting an ability to raise much more money than they have been able to raise and this has been the reality for several years, not a recent one. MR. SPEAKER: Or der please. The time for oral questions having expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes, Mr. Speaker, would you call the Orders of the Day in the order in which they appear on the Order Paper? MR. SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable House Leader, Bill No. 115, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Stand, Mr.

Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have leave to have this matter stand? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: No. MR. SPEAKER: Leave has not been granted. The Honourable Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVN ATS: Mr. Speak er, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Emerson, that this House do now adjourn. - (Interjection) - MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. Order please. Members will be aware that a motion to adjourn is not debatable, not even from their seats. MOTION presented and defeated. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Yeas and Nays, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: Call in the members. Order please. I have been advised by the Official Opposition Whip that the Opposition will not return 10:00 a.m. tomorrow morning. In view of this advice I have informed Chamber staff that they will not be required to remain on duty outside normal working hours. I have made arrangements to secure the Chamber and the sounding of the bells will be minimized to the greatest extent possible. I am accordingly leaving the Chair to return at 10 o'clock this evening in order to adjourn the House. (And tne Division bells having stopped ringing at 10:00 p.m.) MR.

SPEAKER: The time being 10 o'clock this House is adjourned and will stand adjourned until 10:00 a.m. tomorrow morning. (Friday) 5607

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-2-164
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 2nd hansardpdf 164.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	3d01fb45cafb9f8d707dad281b25b9e6d7ba4799

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