Volume XLI Thursday Province of Newfoundland FORTY -FIRST GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Second Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard) Speaker: Honourable Thomas Lush [Preliminary Transcript] Number 13 29 March 1990

The House met at 2:00p.m . MR. SPEAKER (Lush): Order, ph~ as e! On behalf of hon. Members, I would like to weJ.come to the Speaker 1 s gallery today the hon. Roger Simmons, Member of Parliament for Burin - St. Georges. Also, we would like to welcome on behalf of hon. Mt~mbers twenty-eight g1nade XII students accompanied by two teachers and the Canadian issues class of Musgravetown High School, Musgravetown. Also we would like to welcome to the galleries today seventeen girl guides accompanied by their three leaders from St. John 1 s. Statements by Ministers MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER WELLS: Mr.

Speaker, the problem of the huge number of refugees deplaning from eastern European and Cuban airlines at Gander has now reached crisis proportions. As of midnight last night there were 2, 201 refugees being maintained by the Provincial Government in hotels in the Province. The Province would have no difficulty accommodating two or three hund1ned refugees at any one time, as we have done over recent years, nor do we mind paying our fair share of the cost. However, the number of refugees in the Province has grown From 368 in mid-January of this year to 2, 201 at th~?! moment.

And if you bear· in mind the population of this Province and our capability, 2, 201 is roughly the equivalent of having over 100,000 in Canada in L1 March 29, 1990 Uol XLI those two months. Now you can imagine the reaction there would be in the nation if all of a sudden we had 100,000 refugees descend on the nation. That is the level of the impact on this Province. Virtually all of the motel rooms in the Province are filled to capacity.

The matter reached a crisis stage last evening when certain hotels in Gander requested some of the refugees be moved in order to enable those hotels to meet longstanding commitments. An emergency meeting was held with the Minister of Social Services to deal with these requests and discuss Government 1 s reponse to this crisis. From Newfoundland 1 s point of v:iE!l.~J the problem has two dimensions. First, we have l:i.tE!rally I"Un out of suitable physical spact~ to accommodate the 1nefugees.

At the moment 82 per cent of all available hotel, motel, and tourist lodge facilities on the Island o·F Newfoundland is occupied by refugees. Hotels have to merc~t their other longstanding commitments and are requiring us to move the refugees for brief periods of t.imE! to allow thc::~m to honour their other committed reservations. As well, only Gander and St. John 1 s have the immigration and interpreting services necessary to properly attend to the needs of the refugees. The second dimension of the problem is the cost.

It has for some::~ time exceed.:~d the capability of ·this Province and has gone Far beyond what can be rE!asonably expected of the poorest Province in this nation in dealing with what is a national plnoblern or a nationa1 obligation. It is now costing t:he taxpayc::~rs of t:.his No. 13 R:l.

Province, their share, the total gross cost is $2.50 million. the share that has to be born by the taxpayers is in excess of $1.25 million per month to provide accommodation only to the refugees that are here, and the numbers are growing every week. Now, in addition to that, Mr. Speaker·, we also have to provide for medical services and education services as needed so this is a major problem and a major cost. Ignoring for the moment the financial burden on he taxpayers of this Province we must within the next few days find an alternative that will enable Canada to treat the refugees in a humanitarian way.

Newfoundland•s physical capacity to do so is exhausb:!d. Last night we had sixty refugees sleeping on mattresses in a large room in the Battery Hotel. That is the stage which we have reached so it is a matter of crisis proportions. I have this morning both spoken to the Prime Minister and written to him to apprise him of the gravity of the situation and to seek his immediate intervention. He has assured me that he will personally look into the matter. Frankly, Mr.

Speaker, it is not really adequate for me to say he has assu1ned me that he tAii11 personally look into the matter, he gave me a greater level of comfort than that. In the discussion that I had with hirn I felt complete confidence that at the conclusion of the conversation he would attend to the matter very quickly and would provide the help that we will need. As a matter of fact I have reason to believe, since my conversation with him, that action is already underway L2 Mar·ch 29, 1990 Vol XLI and I want to express my gratitude to the Prime Minister for his immediate response. Thank you, Mr. Speaker . MR.

SPEAKER: The han . the Leader of the Opposi·tion. MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I do not think anybody gE!t.s any particular satisfaction out of the very difficult problem that the refugees have. that the Gov ernment of Newfoundland and Labrador has in this particular matter and that the people of Canada have. Mr . Speaker, we can only at this point in timE! becausE! of thE! gravity of the situation concur with the statement made here today by the Premier.

I think that Newfoundlanders and Labradorians as a society have shown a great deal of sympathy . and compassion for refugees that have been coming into our Province in such great numbers, particularly over the 1 a s t n u m b e r o f we Ed< s a n d rn o n t h s . . There is no doubt about it that we have exceeded our fiscal capad.ty and our physical capacity to be able to address the continuing growing problem. So therefore, M1n. Sp~'ai<E!In. · lAJE! support the initiative by !:.he Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to seek. on an emergency and urgent basis. additional help from ·the Government of Canada.

We obviously have excE '!eded. as I have said, our capacity physically and financially to be able to continue to address this problem and the naU.on must get invo1VE!d and he1p us out. Whe1ne are we goinq to put them. aside from thE· financ.i.a1. fiscal cost as t:he PtnerniE!r sai.d. No. 1.3 r~ 2

So we do have to have help and we certainly support the Government and the Premier in that initiative. can say. find it Minister has been of this The only other thing I Mr. Speaker, is that I kind of strange that the of Social Services, who carrying the brunt particular problem day was not able to Ministerial Statement today and it had to after day. by the Premier. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hea1n, hear! MR. GILBERT : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: make this to the House be delive1ned The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. MR. GILBERT : Mr. Speaker, I t.o~.lish at this time to inform this hon.

House of the Government's decision to proceed with the construction of a road to the community of Petit Forte. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. GILBERT: Thank you . Han. Members will recall that several months ago I announced my Department • s intention to evaluate the merits of the construction of a road to the community of Pet.i.t Forte, before procE:~eding any further with this project. That evaluation is now complete and the Government has decided to continue l.A.!ith thE! constructton of ·the road from Brookside to Petit Forte.

Petit Forte will be 23 kilometers in total construction The road to approximately length and the L3 March 29, 1990 Vol XLI costs are estimated to be $5.9 million. Completion of the road is scheduled for the Fall of 1991. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. l:he M<::~mbe1n for Burin Placentia West. MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, how pressure has worked. How pressure has worked! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker. nothing has . chang~:1d. not a thing has changed as it relates to the impact: the f(-:!der·al Government will have on thi s road.

It is unfortunate t:hat t~he Minister and his colleaqUE!S sat by and p u n i s he d the p ·~ o p 1 e of P e l:. i. t FOI"te for so lonq fol" voting Conservative in the last eJection. The people of p~:! U.t Forte have taken up petitions; I have a thousand name petition here I was denied the right to pr 'e s E! nt on their beha1f the other day. Th~re is a boatload of people From Petit: . For ·te due to rn~'!E!t l.o~.J·:i.th t~he Premier t:omorrow afternoon.

All thtngs arE! coming tog~:!l:hE!r', but l say Thank God the work of the previous Government and the work of the Fed~::>ral Govel''nrn€:~nt has finally succeeded. Mr. Speaker, I would be rem iss tf I did not thank a11 my co1.leagues for the support they have given me on this project. I would not be -- AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible) . l~l_B...! __ .. :.r 0 li~ : Yes. Yes. thank th <::~ the people and the District No. 13 Mr. Speaker, I lAJanl : ·to pE!ople of Pe'L i t For· te. of l:IH ! Burin penin sula people of Pla ce ntia for the suppo rL thr::'y rn

offered, but I really want to thank the hon. John Crosbie, who told the Premier· and the Minis·ter, 1 Until you honour the agreement on the Petit Forte Road, do not come near me to talk about any other roads: the Burgeo ·Road, the ·curling Waterfront or anything else - until that is deal with. John Crosbie deserves a lot of credit for this road. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. thE! Minister of Development . MR. FUREY: Mr.

Speaker, I arn pleased to elaborate on Government 1 s approval of $250,000 for the purpose of improving the information/interpretation facilities presently in place at the two major gateways to the Island and to plan for additional facilities at gateway locations as travel volumes continue to grow. Hon. Members will recall that in last year 1 s Budget, $100,000 was provided to provide for a new display for the lower level of the Provincial

Interpretation/Information Centre at Port aux Basques. In this year 1 s Budget, Government has approved an additional $150, 000 for further improvements to the centre at Port aux Basques. The planned improvements relate to the information services available to visitors and will include an expanded area for private sector tourism related businesses to display their brochures, a much improved visitor information area, and because of the location of the centre, a designated

section of the display area will highlight southwest Newfoundland. As a major

interpretation/information centre, we rnust continue to ensure this facility is maintained and L4· March 29, 1990 Vol XLI operated in the most appropriate manner. MIn . S p ~<:~a k e 1n , with the in trod u c t ton of ·the new Marine Atlantic f~<:~rlny, 11 The Joseph And Clara Srna11wood 11 , on the Argentia service and in sup port of the projected increase in the visitor traffic via the Argentia gateway, I am also pleased to announce that Government has approved $100,000 to complete the preliminary design and begin thE! site selection fo1n the new Provinctal

Interpretation/Information Centre to be located in the Argentia area. This preliminary lAJork lAiill be complel:ed during thE! Fiscal year· 1990/91 so that IAIE:' rndy include the actual construction costs in the Estimates for the next fiscal year, 1991192. The present facility at Dunville has SE!rved us well, but as thE! traffic increases there is a requirement to expand to rneE•t . the needs of the :increasing number of visitors.

This new centre, when completed, will contribute significantly not only to the numbers of visitors t.uho visil. the arE!as, but will assist i.n convincing visitors to stay longer and increase their expend:i.tul~~<:~s in the southwest avalon region. Further, Mr. Speaker, we must: not underestimate the importance of Labrador. With the opening of LhE! r•oad from Baie Comeau to Labrador West, the Labrador West area is rapidly becoming the third important gateway to l.his Province.

As progrE!SS is made on the Trans Labrador HightAiay, tAlE! will continue to mon itor the visitor traffic into Labrador West fol" the pulnpose of complet:i .ng OUI" planning efforts in support of Lhe construction of a visitor centre in the Labrador West area. We No. 13 R'l

expect to design work Fiscal year. begin the site and during the 1991/92 Mr. Speaker, this Government recognizes the importance of locating appropriate visitor

interpretation/information centres at the major gatetJJays ·to the Province. We will continue in our effOI"ts to improve and expand on these and other similar facilities right throughout the entire Province. Thank you. MR. GREENING: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Member for Terra Nova . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. GREENING: First of all, I u..Jant to thank the Minister of Development (Mr. Furey) for delivering a copy of this statement to me before the · House opened today. Let me also say to the Minister on behalf of my colleagues on this side of thE!

House that we are pleased with the Minister- 1 s announcement today and welcome these initiatives taken by the MinistE!r. I would like to say to the Minister that he is in charge of a Department which presides over one of the greatest untapped resources ·l~.his Province has. and that is the tourism sectOJ". Any progress the Minister can make in having people made more aware of the tourism potential of this beautiful Province of ours. certainly is supported by all Members of t.his hon. House. I arn pleased. Ml".

Speaker. to see information/interpretation centres at. both Por't aux Basques and L5 March 29, 1990 Vol XLI Argent.ia. It is very appi"Opr-.i.atE! that theSE! two si t.es be c hos E!n to receive fund:ing, Mr. SpeakE!r. ThE!Se are the two major gatE!tAJays ·to our Province and, as such, provide the first impressions of our Province to visi·tors f1"om around the world. It is good also, Ml". Speaker, to see services made available to the Port aux Basques Centre for the private business sector t:o display their brochures.

If th~1rE! is onE! complaint I most frequently hear from visitors to oUI" ProvinCE!, it cel"tainly has bE! the 1ack of information available to visitors upon entering our Province. Quite possibly this wi 1:1 c hangE• ov E:!J" time, and this is a good sl:ep forward. One hundred thousand dollars for Argentia for preliminary studies and dE!S:ign and site selection for a netJJ visitor centre in that area is welcome news also, Mr. Speaker. ·rhank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: ·H"e-a r-:ti'e-ar!-·-·· .. ·····-- MR. GULLAGE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. MR. GULLAGE: Mr.

Speaker, I arn p1E~asE:1d ·to announce today that GoveJ"nJTIE!nt has approved new policy guidelines with respect to th~1 financing of regional recreational faciJ.it.ies in Newfoundland and Labrador. The new policy guidelines are the result of a complete review of the complete review of the Regional Recreation Facilities Program. This review was undertaken u..Jith a view toward effecting ·.improvements in the provision of recreational No. 13 r~ 5

facilities throughout the Province . The rationale for this program basically was to encourage municipalities to join together to build and operate major facilities ensuring greater financial viability from an increased tax base. In the past Provincial approximately variety of facilities. fifteen years, the Government spent $30 million on a community recreation The majority are minor in facilities outdoor halls. arenas funded nature and include such as ballfields, courts and recreation Major facilities such as and indoor pools we1nE! also under this program.

Our review indicated that many of these facilities were poorly designed and constructed and that they did not respond to specific needs of the communities and additionally, they have proven to be very costly to operate and to maintain. On average, it has beE:~n discovered that municipal councils are subsidizing arenas and pool operations to the extent of between $40,000 and $60,000 each per year. The original guidelines under tlie Regional Recreational Facilities Program stipulated that Government would pay for the construction of these facilities from capital account over a two or three year period.

Under the new guidelines, Government, together with the municipalities involved, would finance the cost of construction amortized over a twenty year period under the Newfoundland Municipal Financing Corporation. rhe cost-sharing ratio would be L6 March 29, 1990 Vol XLI 80/20 with th Pr·ovince paying 80 per cent of the share. ThE:! neLJ.J policy will make it easier for municipalities to deal with the financial burden. However, municipalities will have to convince the Province that they have the ability to finance their portion.

Another element of the new proposal is the establishmE!nt of a minimum and a maximum, as the funding limits with respect to the involvement of the Province. Under the new policy, funding for major recreational facilities would be restricted to two projects annually. Mr.

Speaker, the new po1icy guidelines state: That a minimum of $100.000 and a maximum of $1,500,000 are established as the funding limits for the financial involvement of the Province under the program, with any amount over $1,500,000 to be the completE! responsibiLity of the relevant municipalities t.o be provided from their own resources; 2) That a maxirnurn oF two major projects per year to be approv E!d, with a total allowablE' capital expenditure of $3,000,000.

What this means is that in the cun 'E:'rlt year the Government tJJould cornrnit to two major recreational facilities, at a cost or: $3 rnil1ion; 3) That in identifying projects to be approved in any year, the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs shall provide an opportunity for aLl. interE!S I:.E!d municipalities in the Provine'"' to be considered, with the Minister to provide a full 1n1:>po1nt to Cabinet on the recommended projects; No. 13 R6

4) That fo1n each application received under the program, the total cost of the project is to be allocated among the individual municipalities involv~d in the application on the basis of the populations oF the respective municipalities as established by Statistics Canada in the most recent census; and that a detailed review of the financial position of each municipality be carried out by the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, to establish that each municipality wi 11 be a b 1 e to s e r vi c e its s hare of the debt involved and the projected operating cost of the completed facility; 5) That for approved under each application the program, project to be financing for the arranged as follows: (

A) The municipalities associated with the application to be authorized to borrow from a chartered bank or other financial institution.

Government guaranteed loans for amounts not exceeding their respective shares of the total cost of the construction of the facility. including design and related costs, together with the amount required to capitalize ·the related accrued interest on the loans up to the date of substantial completion of the project and for an additional period of six months beyond that date, if required; with legislation to be introduced in due course to sanction the guaranteed loans and following completion of the project. the loans to be repaid to the chartered banks or other financial institutions and rE!financed by the Newfoundland Municipal Financing Corporation through the issue of debentures to the respective municipalities for a period not L7 March 29. 1990 Vol XLI exceeding twenty years; (

B) Repayment of the debentut"ed debt in 5 (

A) to the NE!tAJfoundland Municipal Financing Corporation ·to be made as follows: (

I) For the 80 per cent Provincial share, payments of principal and interest be madE! by the Province to the Corporation, on behalf of the municipalities, over the term of the debenture, from annual budgetary provisions in the relevant account centres of the Department oF Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

Any interest accruing on the Provincial share of the debentures beyond the stx month capitalization period to bE! paid by the Department from annual budgetary provisions in the relevant current account centre; (II) For the 20 per cent Municipal share, payments of principal and interest be madE! by the municipalities to the Corporation over ·the term oF thE! debenture from their own current resourCE!S. Any in ·terest accr'uing on the Municipal share of the debentures beyond the six month capitalization period to be paid by the respective municipalities from their own resources.

This Policy is to have effect f1"orn April 1, 1990. Mr. Speaker. there wi11 not be a Recreation Capi t.a1 Grants Program, as such, for 1990/91 as no I1E!W funds were identified in the budget. One of the reasons for this is that we felt that it lAJas time to assess this Program to deter'rnine if, in fact, thE!Ine is a better way of deliuering financial assistance to the municipalities to assist with new construction and refurbish1nent of exis t'.ing recreation facilities. No. 13 1~7

Officials of my Department will review similar Pl"ograms throughout the Country and it is my hope that a new program or programs wtll be in place by the spring of next year. In the meantime, we have identified approximately $350,000 for new Recreation Capital Projects to be committed immediately and I will be announcing these projects within the next few weeks. Mr. Speaker. also budgeted is $100,000 for the ~rena Pool Retrofit Program, $2 5. boo for the arena structural safety assessment. Mr.

Speaker, whE!n you consider that there is $1.7 million in the budget for previous commitments together with the amounts indicated today, I think it can be said that Government is making a significant contribution with reference to the construction and financing of recreation facilities in the Province. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Member for Fogo. MR. WINSOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. First I would like to thank the Minister For providing me an advance copy. What I do not know is what took the Minister so long to prepare it.

One year it has been in the making and I do not see very much here that is going to solve the recreational needs of this Province. I want to take exception to some of the remarks the Minister made. The Minister L8 March 29, 1.990 Vol XLI said the majority are minor in nature and includes facilities such as ball fields. I think hE! should go out into the communities of Newfoundland and see if they think a ball field is of a ulinor nature. See what they think of it. The Minister says the facilities were poorly designed and constructed. I think he should ask the people of Bay Roberts and the people in thE!

Southern shore area if the facilities that were in place were poorly designed and constructed. Mr. Speaker, under l:he guide1in,:;!s, the 80/20, what the Minister has done is to shift the burden of this directly to the tax payers of the communities by having to finance twenty per cent over a twenty year period. This is going to involve a substantail cos l to municipalities because of the high interest. The previous program would have had the construction completed in a three year peJ"iod with money all up front and that: would have been the end of it.

Now it is going to be financed over tl.uenty years and if you can imagine small rnunicipa1 H :i,~s having to finance $200,000 pE!rhaps $300,000 to reach the length of the $1.5 million, twenty years, you can imagine the:>. interE•s'l:. t.hat would accrue to the communities. What is devious in this sl:al:ernent, though, is that the MinistE!l'' says a maximum of tlJJo major projE!Cts a year with a total allowable capital expenditure of $3 million.

But in his guidE! linE!S he says that it is possible that a facility that lJJould cost $100,000 could be constructed, tJJhich means that in a given year we cou1d have facilities costing $200,000 and not thE! $3 mi11ion as ti·H;! M:ird.ster' indicates. Now I do not know what kind of political trickery this No. 13 R8

GovernmE:~nt is engaging in. This might be somewhat similar to the budget. This sounds like a Dr. Kitchen statement. The other thing the statement fails to include is how do communities get considered for this? The Minister makes a point in each one of his statements of saying municipalities. He does not include unincorporated areas which in many communities make up a large part of the regional recreational complex program. How are they to be considered when they do not have books for the officials at Municipal Affair·s to audit? He makes no mention of feasibility studies. Are they to be carried out?

What happens to the communities who have a1ready carried them out at a cos·t of $25,000 for a community? Are these applications to be reconsidered or do they have to go through this same · expense again? In the last page of his statement the Minister says there will not be a Recreation Capital Grants Program for 1990-91. The Grinch t..uho stole Christmas, he announces on one hand and takes it back on the other. The Minister suddenly announces $350,000 for· new capital recreation projects and I wonder if that is not money which was left from last year's Budget and is now gain to be allocated this year?

In reality there is not five cents in this Budget for new small capital works projects in this Province. Thank you . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Oral Questions L9 March 29, 1990 Vol XLI MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of thE! Opposition . MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker, yesterday we saw, for the first time, Government's new Interim Consumer Advocate spout the Government line as he commented on Newfoundland Hydro's app1ication For a rate increase that is now before the Public Utilities Board.

It is obvious, from the start, that this new Interim Consumer Advocate, Mr. Speaker, is no Andy WeJ.ls when it. comes to protecU.ng the consumers of Newfoundland and Labrador. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I have a quest'ion for the Minister of Mines and Engery. Does thE! Minister concur t..uith Mr.

Casey's convoluted logic that Government's decision to phase out the PDD subsidy of $30 million over a three year per·iod, and t:hat wiJ.J. have to be c1awed back frorn the consumer, that Government • s decision to put a Joan guar·antee on the debt of Hydro, which t..uill be another $9 million that the consumer must pick up, in other words, Government's budgetary decision to force Hydro to come up with another $39 million which must be passed on the ratepayer's, does the Minister concu1n u.rH:h Ml".

Casey that this has not:hing to do with the 4.5 per cent rate increase that Hydro is notAl looking for over the next three years? In No. 13 R9

other words, 13.5 per cent over the next three years, and that has nothing to do with Government 1 s budgetary decision. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Energy . DR. GIBBONS: Mr. Speaker, I did not hear Mr. Casey. so I am not going to comment on anything he might have said. until I do hear exactly what he said. MR. RIDEOUT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT: Well, Mr. Speaker, the Minister should check out what Mr. Casey had to say last night. In essence, what he had to say was that thE!

Government 1 s decision to abandon the PDD subsidies and put on the loan impost on Newfoundland Hydro had nothing "l:o do u.Ji th the increases. Let me ask the Minister this, Mr. Speaker: Can the Minister tell the House as the Minister of Mines and Energy whether or not he sees the:~ role of the Consumer Advocate at PUB as one of defending rate increases, as on€~ of dE!fending Government policy on Hydro budge ·tary decisions, as OnE! of attacking the Federal Government on tax policy, or should it be defending the consumer of Newfoundland and Labrador? MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Energy . DR.

GIBBONS: Mr. Speaker, the Consumer Advocate is the Consumer Advocate . Ht?. is LlO March 29, 1990 VoJ. XLI not there to protect Hydro. Hydro is in defend itself. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. ·the Leader Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT: or defc:'ncl there to of thE! Mr. Speaker, my supplementary is to the same Minister. In view of the fact that this Consumer Advocate , who took this pathetic sort of Government. lapdog approach yesterday befor·e thE!

PUB in its first public hearing. would the Minister consider giving some funding to an indr:'pendr:'nt out.sj_dE! consumers gr·oup to l~epi"E!Senl.. t:hei1~ inte1nes ts be fo1ne the PUB, in view of the fact that this pathetic civil servant bureaucrat cannot represent the interests of the consumers of this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mj nE!S and Energy. DR. GIBBONS : I have no comment on that, Mr. Speaker. I think it IAJould be lfiOine appropriately put to somebody else. MR. A. SNOW : Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Menihek . MR. A. SNOW: Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs (Mr. Gullage), the Minister responsible for Recreation, Sport and Fitness. The Minister announced yesterday in a small little wire that he shifted out over the wires, another onslaught against the people of Labrador that was contained in the Budget of two No. 13 RlO

week 1 s ago, the Budget not going to hurt the this Province. that. people tAla s of He announced last week that the Labrador Air Passenger Subsidy Program was discontinued; yesterday they announced that the youth have been hit in Labrador. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Shame! MR. A. SNOW: A $100,000 reduction Labrador Travel Program. MR. RIDEOUT: The people 1 s Budget . MR. A. SNOW: in the A decrease of subsidy for sports and cultural groups of 75 to 50 per cent for youth and 50 to 25 per cent for adults. Can the Minister tell this han.

House and the people of Labrador why this program was originally put in place, and why now it is being cut? SOME HON. MEMBERS: A good question. MR. SPEAKER: The Minister of Municipal Provincial Affairs. MR. GULLAGE: and Mr. SpeakE!r. my Department was Fortunate in that having to make savings in rny Department. this is one of the areas that was idE!ntified. I feel very fortunate that we only had to cut, as we did, 75 pE!r cent to 50 per cent, and from 50 per cent to 25 per cent. AN HON. MEMBER: For ·tunate? MR.

GULLAGE: ThE! program has not been Lll March 29, 1990 Vol XLI eliminated. ·rhe reduction in tel~ms of dol1ars Js $100,000. It. is a reduction. i·t is a cut in th1:! Budget, but. it is a cut that was identified in my Department and it is in place. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Member for Menihek. MR. A. SNOW: Mr. Speaker. the people of Western Labrador. indE~ecl a11 of Labrador. do not feel that it was a fortunatE! cut. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear. hear! MR. A. SNOW: The gutting oF a prograrn is I.I.Jhat they call it. My supplementary question is again to the MinJster. We saw in thE!

BuclgE=!t of two weeks ago an additional $3 million tax grab coming out of Western Labrador. Recognizing that this Government also predicted a $10 million surplus in their Budget, can hE! tell rne lAJhy he has to cut it? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Answer the question. question. AnsWE!l~ the MR. GULLAGE: wi1 ·y·?-···-·-----· MR. A. SNOW : Why. indeed! has a $10 predi c tE!d in indeed do you program? MR. SPEAKER: If this Government million surplus its Budget, why have to cut this The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial AfFairs. MR. GULLAGE: Mr. Speaker. in l:he Budge l: process, of coursE:', cuts lAJer'E!

No. 13 1n1

identified in various Departments in order to come up tAJith a Budget that was acce:~ptable. The fact:. that Government decided to be in a surplus decision on current account is a decision of the Government, and that is a separate item entirely from identifying Budget cuts in whatever Department. MR. FLIGHT: A good answer! MR. SPEAKER: The han. -·-'t·Fie Member for Menihek. MR. A. SNOW: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary question is again to the Minis·ter of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. I do not believe that he really understands the importance of this particular program to the people of all Labrador.

While I specifically speak for the interests of the people of Western Labrador, other people in this Chamber may, indeed, speak for some of the other people of Labrador. But my phone has rung off the wall since yesterday evening. I was on the phone until 1:00 o'clock this morning. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The han. gentleman is in to his third supplementary and, as han. Members know, they should proceed to get ·to their supp1ementary as quickly as possible. The han. the Member for Menihek. MR. A.

SNOW: Does the Minister realize that just this morning the High School Athletic Federation, in Labrador, announced the curtailment of a program that is going to cut 200 students from a program this month? Does he realize that? Ll2 March 29, 1990 Uol XLI Does he realize some of the effects this will have on this whole Province, not just Labrador? Does he real.ize tAJhy "it was put in place? It was to influence more travel within this Province, from the Island to Labrador and from Labrado1~ to the Island, and, indeed, this may force them to travel to the Province of Quebec because of economic means?

Is that tAJhat he is trying to do? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Ministet~ of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. MR. GULLAGE: Mr ... : .. Speaker, I tAJiOll be speaking, of course, to the three federations that at~e "involVE!d and impacted by this program . As for the h"igh s c hoo 1 program he reFers to, for this particular month it will not be affected; this does not take effect until April 1.. I am familiar with what you are saying, but that w:LJ.l not be:' impacted. I said all existing programs in effect and all commitments made t.dil1 be:' honou1~e:1d, and that is a fact .

We do understand this could have some impact, but keep in mind thE! program is sti.l1 in place. It is a reduction from 75 to 50 per cent, and 50 to 25 per cc,1nt, but the program is still in place. MR. SPEAKER : The han. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Finance. Now l:hal: l:he Minister of Finance confi.nnE•d fat~ my colleague, a Few days ago, l:.hat the 20 per CE!nt air subsidy No . 13 R12

program will not be reinstated, and now that the Minister and Provincial and Municipal Affairs has confit"med fol" my colleague that there will be $100,000 cut from the sport and cultural travel program, could the Minister tell this hon. House when he will be making the third announcement, of another major cut to the people of Labrador? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Finance . DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, it has not gotten through to han. Members opposite that this Province, this year, is forecasting going in the hole $250 mi1lion more than it went in the hole before. Those hon.

Members over there and their pre de cess ors dt"ove us $5.2 billion in the hole and we have to cut, we cannot spend. We have been spending like drunken sailors over the past few years and we must come to grips with that deficit problem. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, my second question is to the Premier. Yesterday I had the opportunity to visit Labrador and I met with the town council of Happy Va11ey - Goose Bay, in fact, at the same time the Minister was making his statement about the cut to sports and culture.

Yesterday in Happy Valley - Goose Bay everybody showed a real concern about this Government selling off Labrador. Mr. Speaker, I have a letter I wish the Page to deliver to the Premier. I ask the Premier if he would seriously consider the contents of this letter and remove Ll3 March 29, 1990 Vol XLI Mr . Jim Ke11and from his CabinE!t, to save Labrador. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier . PREMIER WELLS: I do not know if there is a question, Mr. Speaker. If there is a question, I will answer it. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, the people in Labardor have said loud and clei.H' in the last Few days that Labrador 1 s representative in the Cabinet of Newfnundland and Labrador is not speaking ~P in the interest of his people. Would the Premier kindly take the necessat"Y steps, on behalf of thE! peopl~"' in Labrador, to remove the hon. Member from his Cabinet and possibly put the MernbE!r fat" Eagle River (Mr. Dumaresque) in t:he Cabinet, in his place? MR. SPEAKER: The han . the Premier. PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, it has beE~n my expE!rience with the hon.

Mernber in the House that nothing he has ever said has had an iota of credibility or substancE! to it, so I give what he said no rncH'C:~ credibility and substance than what hE! said in thE! past, I just: consider it:. to be a si1ly, fool.J.sh remark. MR. PARSONS: Mr . Spl::!aker . MR . SPEAKER: No. 13 R13

The han. the Member for St. John 1 s East Extern. MR. PARSONS: Thank -you, Mr. Speaker . My question is to the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs . First of all I have to set the record straight. Mr. Speaker. in saying that I did go to the Minster and ask for funding for my district. I also met the Minister on two occasions and on thE! last occasion he told me what he thought the rni 1 rate would be, as suggested by his Department. I want to make that clear. But, Mr. Speaker, i·t tJJas only this morning, when I attended a rneettng in Flat Rock, that reality carne home to roost.

I want to ask the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) joke, boys. MR. PARSONS: You can joke about it all you like . It is no joke with the thousand people whom I represent in Flat Rock. You can laugh all you like! But I want to ask the Minister -- SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! There is too much interference, on both sides of the House, for the han. Gentleman to ask his qu~::~stion. The han. the ME!mber for St. John 1 s East Extern. MR. PARSONS: Will the Minister tell this han.

House whether he intends t.o send the same letter to all the Coun c i 1 s of Newf au ndland, the s arne L Ill - March 29, 1990 Vol XLI content, as the one he sent to Flat Rock? MR. SPEAKER: The han ·.--the Minister of Muni.cipal and Provincial Affairs. MR. GULLAGE: I am not familiar lAJi l:h the letter ·to whtch you are rE!fE!rring. But if you are referring to thE! fact that Flat Rock Council was asked to make adjustments in their Budget, that is quite true. Several other Councils WE!re asked to do the same thing.

If I might explain to the House, there were certain cornrnunit.ies in the Province which were identified as critical - cr·it:tca1 ·- by lilY officials in the regional offices. I asked the approval of Government, . that. if thr:'Se communities were wi11ing l:o 111ake ·adjustments in thE!·ir financE!S to qualify them for Capital works. that I would approve tt, and thE!Y have been asked to make those adjustments in thetr Budgets.

If they were willing to make those adjustments, they would be qualified for Capital works. [f I had not asked Government For approua1 for these crittcal projects, they lAJould not have bE!E!n approved at all, or oven considered . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the ME!lTJber for Sl:. John 1 s East Extern. ~R-: ........ PA RSONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Well, then. t.~o.lill l:hc::~ Mtnis b:-r acknowledge 'the fact that what he did in telling the people of Flat Rock, that they had to set thetr· mil rate at 13 rnils - SOME HON. MEMBERS : No. 13 R 14 .

What? What? 13 mils? MR. PARSONS: 13 miJ.s! Would he accEq:>t the fact that this is corrupt and indt~ed, Mr. Speaker, it is blackmail in its truest form? What he is saying, in essence, is if you do not charge this mil rate, as suggested by my Department, then you will not receive any funding. Will the Minister tell the han. House? MR. SPEAKER: The han ·~··-.... -:Che Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. MR. GULLAGE: M r -:------sp-e··a"k"e r . I lAl o u 1 d 1 i I< e t o remind the Mr:~mber that assessments in the rural communi ties, on aver age , are 50 per cent , even 40 per cent, of the urban areas.

So when you think of a mil rate of 13 mils, it really equates to a mil rate of 6.5 mils, if you are talking about an urban area, because the assessments are, generally speaking, half of the urban areas. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order please! The Chair has said on several occasions that Members should not ask questions from their Chair. They have a right to ask questions. and when ·they are recognized they can ask the Minister all the questions they like, as the ME!rnber for St. John's East Ex tern, is notAl doing. I tJJi 11 allow the Minister to clue up in a few seconds. MR.

GULLAGE: Mr. SpE!aker, what:. thE! communities have been asked to do is to bring L15 March 29, 1.990 Vol XLI the ratio of their revenue, and the revr:~nue includes all r'E!VentH!, in line lAlith the ave1nage for the Province - revenue against assessments. In fairness, all communities involved on the critical list were asked to do that. All of them we1n.::~ as kE!d ·to do that. Those who were lAJi.lling to adjust their finances to the average of the Province, or better, would be qualified for the capital works identified. Now, that was entirely fair.

The amount would vary fr·om cormnuni ty to community because of the differences in assessments. I cannot speak specifically to the community of Flat Rock, but I can tell you that everybody on the list identified as critical was treated fairly and equally. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Member fo1n St. John's East Extern. MR. PARSONS: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker, again to the same Minister. There are about t.:t.uo or threr:~ kilometE!rs of black pipe in the ground down thE!re, and LhE! community has to pay an asSE!SSirlNil: on that pipe, 20 per cent of its revenue.

What the council wants to know, and I am only repr:'at:ing what they said to me this morning, is will they go down and take up that damn pipe, because it is not serving one single house? Will he have his people go down and ta I< e the damn thing up! It is not serving one house, so why do th.::~y have to pay for it? Even with the $450,000 you allotted them this yea~. it would not go any distance. There sti11 would not bE! one house serviced. Wi.ll the Minister agree to caLL somE:~ ld.nd of tender so they can go dotAJn and remove the pipe from t:he g1nound. which the people are paying for No. 13 R15

for nothing? MR. SPEAKER: ThE! hon. "The Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs . MR. GULLAGE: Mr. Speaker, I cannot believe what I am hearing . Throughout this Province we have communities which have phases started, the first phase complete, the dry-lines waiting to be finished. Are you suggesting that throughout the Province we take up lines, projects which have been started? There are many, many communities waiting to complete the phases necessary over time. MR. PARSONS : They cannot pay it. pay it . MR.

GULLAGE: They cannot Because we are doing on a priority basis the communities identified with the most critical, pressing need. We have many, many situations where there are dry lines wai t:ing to have the project completed, which can only take place over time. Ml~. RIDEOUT: A whirnp of the highest order. If there was ever a whimp Minister, you are it. MR. HEARN: M r --:-s-p-e;··a, -1( e r . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. Mary's -The Capes. MR. HEARN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . My question is to the Minister of Fishc~ries.

A few days ago, he indicated he had a request to issue another processing licence L16 March 29, 1990 Vol XLI in the town of Trepassey . Has the Minister made a dE!C.i.sion on thal.? IF so, what is the decision? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries . MR. W. CARTER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, tJJC:~ haVE! rnade a dE!Cision on it, and the ciE!Cision was not to issue the licence. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. ·thr:~ ME!rnbE•r fol" St. Mary 1 s -The Capes. MR. HEARN : Mr.

SpE!al<er, wh~ :!n the M:inistE·r· spoke a f1':!W clays ago hE! l~eFel~red to a licence on the Southern Shore which he said had been issuE•d due to the fact that the AppE!a1. Board had overturned t:he DE!partrnent 1 s original decision. I understand the Appeal Board had also overturned the decision on the Trepassey licence . If this is so, what are the reasons you turned down the request? MR. SPEAKER : The hon . the Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, the ~1inistE•I~ r'o11ot;.JI:!d to the letter the final recommendation of the Appeal Board. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Mc:Hnber fot~ Sl:.

Mary 1 s -The Capes. MR. HEARN : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I ask the:~ Mtn:ish'r, U1E!n, :in light of the fact that the licence which is in TrE!passey and :is ope•rat:ing l:he FPI Plant, if tn the l~uturE! that plant does close, as sorne people hopE! it tAJi.ll, and tJJE• hope and know it v..Ji 11 no t , if it cl o e s go down and if there is a No. 13 Rl6

trt'!me ndou s wi11 he decision? downturn constdetn in the area, reviewing his MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, that is hypothetical and I do not deal with hypothetical questions . MR. HYNES: Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Trinity North. MR. HYNES : Mr. Speaker. rny question is to the Minister of Finance. I wonder if the Minister could advise t-his House as to how many permanent employees within his own Department, nobody else 1 s. have received layoff notices since he read his Budget in this House? MR. SPEAKER: . The han. the Minister of Finance.

DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, a number of positions in the Department of Finance have been eliminated as a result of the budgetary process; ten positions involving eight peoplE!, because two are currently vacant. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Trinity North. MR. HYNES: Mr. Speaker, given that these gasoline and tobacco tax inspectors collected some $135 million to $150 million worth of revenue For the Treasury of this Province, can the Minister tell this House holAJ he intends to L17 March 29, 199Q Vol XLI ensure that the sa~e amount revenue will be collected? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance . DR.

KITCHEN : of Mr. Speaker, lAJe looked uc~ry carefully at this beforE! bringing in this rationalization in our tax collecting procedures , and tJJe iH 'e convinced that there will be no diminution of rE!Venue as a tnesu1t of this moue. MR. WINDSOR: That is not what your officials say. MR. HYNES: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member fOr Trinity North. MR. HYNES: Mr. Speaker. given t:hat_ undE!r the Collective Agreement these employees, I understand, have bumping privih,ges, and lAd thin thE!

Clarenuille office, For example, there are tiJJo gas o 1 i ne a ncl Lob a c co tax inspectors eliminated but there might be a lower position available for them to go into, could the Minister indicate to t:his House wh•?.ther they tAiill r-·~d circle those gasoline and tobacco tax ins p e c tors s o that the y l~li 11 not lose any sa1ary by taking a lower position? MR. SPEAKER: The han. '"thl"::~ MinistE·r of FinanCE:!. DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, we are looking very carefully at what happens to the particular individuals, and we wil1 do whatever is possible. Mr~. TOBIN : No. l3 1n '7

Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The hon. "the Member for Burin Placentia West. . SQME HON. MEM~ ... ~_RS : Hear, hear! MR. TOBIN: . -· .. ···- Mr. Speaker, some time ago, the Provincial and Federal Governments negotiated an agreement to the tune of $21 million, which was cost-shared 50/50, a subsidy to the Marystown shipyard to construct trawlers. It is my understanding that this agreement will be expiring tomorrow with approximately $9 million left in it. I would like to ask the Minister of Development if there are any plans as to what will happen to tha"t money after tomorrow? MR. WINDSOR: And will he resign? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Development. MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. Member is correct. There is an Ocean Industry Subsidiary Development Agreement. One small component of that was the trawler support program. It was a $21 million component, cost-shared 50/50. I think the Province expended up to $6 million; there was $4.5 million left. The agreement does run out in a couple of days . The Premier and I met with Mr. Crosbie and Mr. McKay last week to discuss the priorities of the Province with respect to future ERDAs. I can tell thE:~ hon.

ME!HibE!r that we have put fortJJar·d our position t~.Jith respect to the Ocean Industries L18 March -29 ... 1990 Vol XLI Subsidiary Agr~ement, and if, in fact. we are successful in signing a new agreement, that $4- .5 miLlion wi.ll be re ·-profiled und er that agreement for the General Ocean Industries Marine Support . ~_!L_~PEAKER : The hon. the Member for Burin Placentia West. MR.

TOBIN: Let me ask the Minister if he wo u 1 d cons ide r as k i n g the F edt:~ r a 1 Government to re -allocate the money, which was negotiated for and used for a subsidy to the Marystown shipyard. to a special fund. put it on hoJ.d and wait fo1" necessary work for the Marystown shipyard E!mployees. Mr. ~)peakE :!r? As the Minister knows. approximately 200 of those employees have now left the Province. MR. SPEAKER: The ·-hori .. ~ the Minis tel" of Development. MR. FUREY : Mr. Speaker. the hon.

Member· knows that we tried very d:i.l:i.gE!ntJ.y to re-profile that $4.5 mil.lion to capture the work for thE! 60- -rnE!tre shrimp trawler that FPI required For its fleet. In fact. lJJE! put $4.5 million on the table. We sought agreement with Ottawa to put their $4.5 mill.ion on the table; we asked Fishery Products to come forward and hold off putting that into Norway. So, we did everything we could possibly do. Mr. Speaker. to access that money within the 1 imi ted time frame we had.

I cannot force FPI to build wet-fish trawlers they do not CUl"rr:~ntly need in this downturned economy t.~.Jith respect to tho fishery. But I can tell the hon. ME:~rnbE!r thi s. No . 13 Rl8

if he wants to be honest about it, since "l:his Government has come to powet~. we have put $13.8 million into a new ice-strengthened vessel for Marystown, since this Government has come to power it has put up a performance bond for $10 million for the Provo Wallis for Marystown shipyard, and this Government just recently announced $25 million for an icebreaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The Minister is now beginning to wander and drift. He has answered the question satisfactorily. The han. the Member for Burin Placentia West . MR. TOBIN : Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Development has his facts a little bit confused. The Federal Government agreed to put up their $4.5 million; the Provincial Government would not put up theirs unless the union rr\adE! concessions to ·the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador. These are the facts of what happened. Mr. Speaker. not what the Minister of Development is saying happened. Let me ask the Minister if he would forget the policies set out: by this Government in terms of punishing the employees of the Marystown shipyard. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible) Tobin . MR.

TOBIN: Yes. he announced the ferry which will be started in 1991. Will he not, Mr. Speaker, allocate the $9 million to where it L19 March 29, 1990 Vol XLI belongs, to the employees of the Marystown shipyard? Will he do the honourable thing, come clean with the people of the Province, and allocate the funding to the project it: was negotiated for, place it where it should be? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Development. MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, the GoVE!rnrnE!nt has been in power for eleven short months. I think. and t,~o.Je have punished Marystown shipyard "l:o the tune of some $50 million in eleven months.

Mr. Speaker. I cannot tell you ·- AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) money? MR. FUREY: Well, with the Speaker 1 s indulgence, $13 million for the ice-strengthened ferry; $10 million for the perfor~ance bond this Government put up for the Provo Wallis, to protect that. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) the borrowed money? MR. FUREY: This Government had to guarantee that money. And $25 rnil1ion for an icebreaker. Mr. Speaker. I lAJas very proud to announce in Marystown, with the Marystown union there, that w~~ tJJere seeking ·the immediate release of $1.5 million for the offshore fabrication yard. Mr. Speaker.

I should say that with the release of that $1.5 million for preliminary engineering and design work and land clearing, that wil1 trigger another $34 rni1lion cost·-shat"ed by this Province, for the offshore No. 13 1n9

fabrication yard at Cow Head. So, Mr. Speaker, I, and the people I spoke with when I was in Marystown, can only conclude that if that is punishment, give us lots more of that punishment. SOME HON. MEMBERS: - . . Hear, hear! MS DUFF: Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Member for St. John 1 s East . MS DUFF: ·1-:-h·a .. n·I- .. 'Y o u , M r . s pea 1< e r . My question is to the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, a very quick question.

The LSPU Hall have now received a letter confirming that the Secretary of State 1 s Cultural Initiatives Department tJJill be able to honour their commitment for a grant contingent on cost-shared funding from the Province. They have written the Minister. I would now like to ask the Minister if he is now prepared to bring to Cabinet the request for, I think, something in excess of $4-5,000 to meet the Provincial comrnitmen ·t for this matching funding? MR. SPEAKER: The han .'--:ti1e Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. MR. GULLAGE : Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I have received a copy of that lettE!r and, indeed, as I said I believe last year, when a question was asked concerning this matter, that subject to the FedE!ral Government agreeing to pay a portion of the cost, that I wouJ.d bring the matter to Government for L20 Mar·ch 29, 1990 VoJ. XLI consideration , and I wiLL do j us t that. ~.?. __ _!>_lj_[f_ : Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Member for St. John 1 s East. MS DUFF: When will you be doing this? And tAJhen can thE! LSPU Hall expect an answer? MR. SPEAKER: The han . the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. MR.

GULLAGE: The request is being considered by my officials right now, Mr. Speaker . As soon as we have dealt with it in the Department and I have a recommendation ready For Government, I will bring it forward to Government. MR. WARREN: Yes, and you took it away from Labrador. MR. SPEAKER: Question Period has expired . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Commitees MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Finance . DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Sp.:~al<er, pursuant t:o s.:'ction 45 paragraph 2 of the FinanciaJ. Adtninisl:ration Act I u..Jish Lo tabh> a list of temporary loans raiSE!d pursuant to

section 4·4- and 45 of thr:~ Act. What I arn t.ab1:i.n~~. Mr·. Speaker, are the tt~lrlporatny borrowings or Treasury Bi1J offerings that we have rnade over No. 13 ruo

the past year overdrafts that we from time to time. and . also the have incurred Mr. Speaker, in addition I u.lish to table the following list under

section 51 paragraph 3 of the Financial Administration Act, a list of guaranteed loans paid out by the Province since the last sitting of the House. And without going into great detail I would like to read the list of them: Star Forest Products, $65,000 plus interest; S. T. Jones and Sons Ltd., $550,000 plus interest; Newfoundland Enviroponics, $10,136,000; Clarkeson and Gordon, the receivers, $1.237 million; Universal Group of Companies, $6.7 million; Notre Dame Bay Fisheries, $2.9 million - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I remind the hon. the Minister that he was given leave.

We have passed that and he should try to proceed as quickly as possible. DR. KITCHEN: Just one Speaker. reading, mi1lion. or two more, I wish to make one Baie Verte Mines, Answers to Questions Mr. moinE! $20 for which Notice has been Given MR. SPEAKER: The ~--:- .. ··-the Minister of Social Services. MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yesterday in my absence there was a question asked by the Member for Grand Falls to the Premier concerning the Government's decision in cancelling or deleting an $84-,000 L21 March 29, 1990 Vol XLI grant to the Youth Diversion Program at Grand Falls.

I guess at the same time that that question was asked in the hon. House of Assembly I was at Gander meeting with the Committee from Grand Falls. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. EFFORD: No, four people were there . Mr. Speaker, neve1ntheless, it. tAJas the decision made by Government in the recent Budget. One of the reasons for making that particular decision, which I discussed with the CommittE!e yE!Sterday, was that there are twelve other alternative measures programs around the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. There is one s:i.nriJ.ar to the one in Grand Falls here in St. John's.

I will give you some figures, Mr. Sp!'::~aker. ThE! one in Grand Falls last YE!ar put through on its formal program 52 youth For the whole year . In St. John 1 s they put through, on lht::' same similar program, 604. For the people in St. John's we gave a total. J.ast yea1n of $2,750; fo1n the people in Grand Fa1ls for 52 youth we gave $78,000. Also, Min. Speaker, that same group, an inforrna1 program, that sarne g1noup, accessed almost $200,000 From different Federal programs, Youth Strategy and so on, extra program. So we have seen this is a particular area, where one group of people on a volunteer basJs in St.

John's and eleven othE!r groups across the Province are doing it. For example, in my otAJn Dist:d.ct of Bay Roberts we have an a1ternative measure program we funded last year for a total of $500. We have one in Corner Brook, which put through more boys and girJ.s than did Grand Falls, and we gaVE! them No. 13 R21

$1,250 for the whole year. There was an inequality in what we lAJere giving one group as compared to all the other groups who arE! operating very successfully on a volunteer basis. And those volunteers were questioning why we were giving one group such a large amount of money, and not giving it to those people who were operating a very successful volunteer program. Government made a very wise decision, Mr. Speaker, as I informed the people yesterday, and the reasons why we did it is accepted throughout the Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Petitions MR. PARSONS: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John 1 s East Extern. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. PARSONS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker, the petition that I am going to present to this hon. House is a petition which I tried to bring to the floor of the House on Tuesday, but because you ruled, Sir, that no more petitions could be presented because the hon. the House Leader called Orders of the Day, I did not get the chance. Now, Mr. SpeakE!r, there were some important issues at that particular time. But l:he important issue at that tirne, Mr.

Speaker, was to many people of no more importance than rnany other issues that this Province has to L22 March 29, 1990 Vol XLI deal with. Mr. Speaker I for the r(~cor·d I t~o.d .ll l"ead thE! prayer of thE! pE!ti .ti.on. A petition to the hon. House of Assembly of Newfoundland and Labrador in Legislative Session convened: The petition of thE! undersigned residents of St. John 1 s East Extern; 1 that l~o.Je are concerned that the provincial Government has made a decision to eliminate moose licences issued to groups.

Wherefore your petitioners urge the GovE~rnrnent of· Newfoundland and Labrador to review this decision t..uith a v-:iew to reinstating party licences of moose hunters in ~ddition to individual licences. As in duty bound your petitioners lAJt'! lArLll ever pray. 1 Mr. SpE!akE!r I I ike I haVE! sa:i.d before in this hon. House I there are 40,000 of us hunters t..uho try for a licence every year . And, Mr. Speaker, we sought for and Government complied with our suggestions that the moose licences would go pr·irnar-Lly on a party system.

Now why the expedience, why do I n•:;!t.~d to introduce this petition at this particular time? Mr. Sp(!aker I soon the licences will be drawn for, and we feel as peoph! on this petition and I as one member of the petition feel very strongly that th<::~ Gov<::H'nrnent shouJ.d change its mind about licencing. AN HON. MEMB _ER: Too bad the Minister is not here . MR. PARSONS: Yes, Mr. Speaker, it the MinistE!r perhaps he is Room lAd t.h the but at any rate MR. WARREN: No. 13 is not out: in speake1n is too bad here but the Comrnon turned on, R22

He is gone to S U biTl':i. -t his resignation. MR. PARSONS: My colleague says he is submit his resignation. that is true, Mr. Speaker. gone to Perhaps But, Mr. Speaker, there is a lot of confusion as to what way the draw went, and what way the Government is suggesting that the draw be done in 1990. Mr. Speaker, there are five categories, and up until this year because of pressure from groups, up until this year, Mr.

Speaker, there was Pool 1, party licence; Pool 1, single licence; Pool 2, party liCE!nce; Pool 2, individual licence; Pool 3, party licence; Pool 3, individual licence; Pool 4-, party licence; Pool 4-, individual licence. AN. HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. PARSONS: No, it was alt.uays like that. They always had their licence. And there was a Pool 5. Now, what happened this year -that is what the people pressed for. There were several reasons why they wanted to do this, Mr. Speaker. Number one, you gave twice as many people the opportunity to hunt. All Newfoundlanders are prone to hunting, or most of them.

When you applied last year the first priority was Pool 1, party licence, and then you went to Pool 1, single licence, but after that, Mr. Speaker, individual licence, after that you went from party licence Pool 1 to party licence Pool 2, then all those that applied were taken into consideration. Then you went to party licence Pool 3, party licr:~nce Poo1 Ll·. Mr. Speaker, individual licences were not L23 March 29, 1990 Vol XLI considered until all those party licences had been taken into consideration. It went right down on the party licence and what happened, because of pressure, I wrote a letter, Mr.

Speaker, and I know several of my friends wrote letters, tel1ing the Government that the party system was the right way to go. Again, they had several reasons and I mentioned one already, Mr. Speake!r, that the par·ty syst.E!fn could have an involvement of twice as many hunters as what individual 1 i cences would i nv o lv e. The other reason, Mr. Speaker, is becaust;! over the years there have been several accidents out in the woods. I know of a couple of instances where moose huntei"S haVE! been injured.

When you giva an individual licence that person must be an individual who does not want to go with a party so the danger is greater. If anything happened to that hunter in the woods he could be there alone, so to protect that person we all pressured him. Now, when I caJled down to the Department I asked the gentleman in M~.I..8 ... KE R: Order, please! I be1i.eve the hon. gE:~ntlE!rnan 1 s time is up. I le!ft the Chair for a rnornc::~nt. It was difficult for ITIE! to see the clock. The hon. gentleman has been extE!nded a minute by leave. AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible) . MR.

SPEAKER: --·····-----·-I said they have granted him a minute. The House has granted him a minute. .~.K.:_._e_ A R -~9..~§ : No. 13 R23

Mr. Speaker, what I say to Government and the Minister - I hope he is listening - is there were sr:wera1 ways to increase the nurnber of licences. Mr. Speaker, I think that you and every other Member of this House will agree with me that there is carnage out there on our highways. There is not a day passes that there is someone, especially at a certain time of the year, that there is someone not injured with a moose, hitting a moose, or a moose coming out in their way and there is an unavoidable accident. We have had several deaths and if the Minister had issued licences, special licences even, Mr.

Speaker, close to the Trans-Canada, say back perhaps a quarter of a mile from the Trans-Canada, it might, and I think everyone would appreciate the fact that it perhaps would relieve some of th1?. problem. Mr. Speaker, those problems are grave and unjustified because there is an answer to it. I believe there is an answer to it, 'Mr. Speaker, and I reiterate again that I hope the Minister takes this into consideration and I hope we revert back to the party licences. In closing, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to say that when I called the gentleman down at the office he said he was under pressure from the individual licence applicants. I say to you, the only reason why those individuals wrote in was because none of the rest of us who always apply for party liCE!nces had any reason to write. So they were out there alonE!. The only letters received by the Department were from individuals who applied for licences. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker . L24- Mar'ch 29, 1990 Vol XLI MR. SPEAKER: The han . ···-the Member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr .

Speaker, I rise in support of' the petition so ably presented by my colleague, the Member for St. John 1 s East Extern. I guess being the Minister For a short period to tim e with res pons i b i 1 it y for wi 1 d 1 iF e , t t is one of the particular divisions that are very, very close to me. Mr. Speaker, I am surpriSE!d l:hat the Government of the day would change a program that was working. It happened after last May 5 . I n fa c t , l: he f o nne r Administration was going to improve on the party licence system so morE! peoplE! in LhE!

Province of Newfoundland and Labrador could avail of thE! rnooSE! hunting season. Mr. Speaker, another crafty moue on the part of the Minister of Finance was, and I do not think the media have picked up on thi s one, giving out mor e single licences so that the Province lAJa s getting extra funds, the ProutnCE! was collecting extra money. So, Mr . Speaker, here is a no Lher increase in funds, rev enues for this Government, by about thr:~ Government changing a program that was effectively working for the people in this Province who WE!r'E! looking for a moose licence . Now, Mr.

Speaker, this year we will have people in Pool No. 2, party licences. Prior l:o this year, their chances of getting a licence were 60 per cent to 70 per cent. By being in Pool No. 2, their chances of getting a licence this year have diminished to 35 p e r c e n t or 4-0 p e r c e n t , be c au s 1?. No. 13 R24 ·

those single licences will come first . Mr. Speaker, this again just shows the disregard this Government has for people who enjoy the recreational facilities in this Province, such as moose hunting, an event which thousands and thousands of Newfoundlanders look forward to in the Fall of every year. A11 of a sudden, the Minister, through his craftiness and his Budget, decided that less people will bet into the wilderness to enjoy a long weekend, or the thrE!e or four days they have altJJays look forward to year aftE!r year. Mr.

Speaker, I support this petition and I would hope that when the next meeting of Cabinet takes place, the hon. House Leader will - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. WARREN: It is neVE!r too late. It is all donE! by computer now, so change it back to the way moose licences were issued fo1n the last three or four years. By doing that you tAJill satisfy a greater nurnbr:~r of people, people who have enjoyed the outdoors of Newfoundland for hundtneds and hundreds of years. I say to the Minister, it is never too late. Do not be too high and mighty to change a program when it is not working E!ff E! c tiv ely.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon . thE! Leader. MR. TOBIN : Government Another petition, Mr. Speaker . MR. BAKER: HOUSE~ L25 March 29, 1990 Vol XLI Thank you, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Government House Leader. _AI',J_~-0~. MEM.E! ... s . .R : Is he speaking to the petition? MR. SPEAKER: I assume. The Speaker has no idea what he is speaking to. MR. RIDEOUT: (Inaudible) did not other day. MR. BAKER: happ,:!n th€~ I wou1d like to comment on the petition so ably presentE!d by the Member for St. John's East Extern. MR. FLIGHT: Well! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Would the hon. the Government House Leader take his seat? The Chair wants to make tt quite clear that the Chair is recognizing individuals. The Chair wants to clear thts up fotn once and for a1l. The Chair· is entitled to rr:~cognize a MernbE!r on this side of the House. On petitions the rulE!S statE!: ttAIO speakers from the Opposition side. So, obviousJ.y, u1hen a petition is presented and it is recognized that there is nobody standing and the Government House• Leader stands, the Chair· must recognize him. I want to get this straightened out once and for al1. The hon. the Govr:~rnrnE!nt HOUSl~' Leader.

No. 13 R25

MR. BAKER : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wou1d Iike to comrnE!nt. very briefly on the petition moved and seconded by Members opposite. We understand what the petition says. We understand the feeling of the people who presented the petition. There was a change made in the order of pick. I believe at the same time we increased the number of moose licences available in the Province and made a number of other changes. I would just like to assure the han. Members that the petition can be passed along to the Minister, and I am sure the Minister lAJill take t:hat petition under advisement and consider the request.

I believe that the reasons for making the change, were not the reasons as mentioned by th~ Member for Torngat. I think that the Minister had very good reasons for the change that did occur in the order of the licences, however, in spite of that, I assure han. Members that the Minister will take the petition and have a look at it and hopefully respond at some later date. MR. SPEAKER: --····---·· ·~ ·- The hon. the Member for Burin Placentia West. MR. TOBIN: Mr--:--s-p.eaker.

I 1.vould like to present a petition on behalf of 97 residents from the community of Span is h Room , that wo u 1 d be in the District of Burin - Placentia West. One hundred per cent of the voters who WE!re eligible to sign the petition, have signed it. The petition is against Government's proposal to amalgamate them with the town of Marystown. Mr.

Speaker, the people of Spanish Room, circulated a petitibn throughout the community, on one L26 March 29, 1990 Vol XLI side they had those in favour, on the othE!r, thoSE! who oppoSE!d the Government's amalgamation and nobody signed in support of the Government's forc•?d amalgamation agenda. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, it most certainly is a petition to th•:!! House. UnlikE! the ones that the hon. Gentleman used to submit when he was in opposition, and there are no secretaries names on it either. This is the prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker. To rhE! hon.

House of Ass~:!lTlbly of Newfoundland in Legislative Session Convened. Would that suggest the House of Assembly?

The petitioners of the undersigned, resid•::>nts of Spantsh Room, are concerned that the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador has proposed to amalgamate the municipality of Spanish Room with Marystown and acted to brtng about th1:!SE· amalgamations without the consent of the people affected by this decision, wherefore, your petitioners urgE! the GovernlllE!nt: of Newfoundland and Labrador to immediately halt the plans and action to amalgamate the municipality of Spanish Room and as in duty bound, you1n pE!U.tionelns 1.vill ever pray. Now, Mr. SpeakE!r, if that is not a petition to thE! han.

House, I do not know what is! The community of Spanish Room, Mr . Speaker, is a ]itt.lE! distance from Mar·ystown, but it is where the Cow Head Facility is proposed . The Cow Head facility which is owned and operated by l:he Marystown shipyard, which is a subsidiary or a Cr01.vn Corpor·ation of the GoVE!rnrnE!nt. of NE•lAJfound1and and Labrador. Il: is a faci.1ity No. 13 R26

-''- that the previous Administration and the Federal Govel~nrnent agreed to spend $36 million to expand. It is a facility in Cow Head in the community and this Government in conjunction with the Federal Government; last September 21st, the Minister of Energy wrote the Federal Minister who decided and said, 'after meeting with my Cabinet colleagues, I concur that we should not proceed to start construction of the Cow Head facility at this time;' that is where Spanish Room is located, Mr. Speaker, in case hon. Members do not realize it.

The people there want the right to their own identity, they do not want to be forced to amalgamate with Marystown. They have expressed that quite clearly, quite candidly when they had the opportunity to public hearings. They had that opportunity a short while ago despite the fact that one of the appointees to the commissioners was the Assistant Deputy Minister who the people have a great deal of respect for.

But they have a great understanding for the fact that he works for the Provincial Government and may be influenced by this Government that have always acted without conciliation and certainly in a dictatorial fashion. People who know what is going on have every right to be suspicious of a commissioner for the Department of Municipal Affairs sitting, dealing, participating, and recommending as it relates to amalgamation. this party is not Mr.

Speaker, opposed to amalgamation. opposed to amalgamation, amalgamation is of ·the people L27 the concept of We have never been the concept of provided what the rnajod.ty who live in the March 29, 1990 Vol XLI community want. Having represented rural Newfoundland, having known the District that was forced to resettle a number of years ago, having seen how the people of Petit: Forte refused to resettle and how they fought: the Government on resettlement and won, today having seen how the people of Petit Forte refused to accept the decisions of thig Government not to provide them t..ui th a road.

How they fought, Mr. Speaker, lobbied, fought, and won again today, that is what makes up the trust and heart of the peoplE! of Placentia Bay. That is what makes up the trust and heart of the people in Spanish Room, too, Mr . Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER: Both sides oF the Bay . MR. TQ~ .. !~: Yes, Mr. Speaker, both sides of the bay. There is no doubt. about that. The Member knows full 1.ue11, Mr. Speaker, where he stood on l:he Petit Forte road.

I have never heard him speaking in the House of Assembly regarding it but I honestly believe deep down ·.in my heart that the Member for Placentia supported the people of Petit Forte having a road. There is no doubt. Deep down I b~~l :LE!Ve that even though he was si}E!nt in this House . As a matter of fact I know he did. I asked him to support it and he said, yes. And I asked the Member for Bellevue (Mr. BarrE!tt) to support. it and he said, no. That is the differE!nce between two Govel~nrnent ME!Inbers. The ME!rnber fo1n Bellevue said, no, to the people of PE!tit Fol~tE! and the Member for Placentia (M1~.

Hogan) said, yes. This petition is extremely important to the people of Span ish Room. The people there have to No. 13 R27

make their living, they work and operate out of Marys town. They hope that this Government wi11 stop resettling people to the Mainland. There are 200 gone from the area since this Government came in some of whom are from Spanish Room. They have been forced to resettle by an uncaring, unsharing and unconcerned Government for the economic conditions of this area. The way they have treated the Marystown Shipyard has been sad, Mr. Speaker. They have constructed one ferry and tried to hoodwink the people last week by announcing another one that will not start until February 1991. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The han. gentleman's time is up. The han. the Opposition House Leader. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, if I could borrow that petition from my colleague for just a moment? I listened to everything he said uli th great interE!St but I just want to make reference to the names. I think the Member mentioned the number of ninety-five who had supported this petition. The petition, I can say to those people in Spanish Room, has been very ably presented by their Member, the Member for Burin Placentia West (Tobin), when they expressed their views on the amalgamation issue. Mr.

Speaker, I just want to say a Few words tJJith respect to, not only their position, which is I believe somewhere in the area of 100 per cent opposed. Is that what the Member says? MR. TOBIN: L28 March 29, 1990 Vol XLI That is 100 per cent . MR. SIMMS: That is the point I wanted to make. There at"e 100 p~~r cent: opposed to amalgamation with the town of Marys town.

Since this Government came into office a year or so ago, just about a y.::~ar ago now, one of the first things they undertook without a mandal:e from the people was this whole amalgamation question, to deal with this whole amalgamati.on question, and they have bung1C::!d it right from day om'. The Province, in terms of municipalities, has been in chaos with respect to dealing with this issue of amalgamation. The process has been criticized hither ind yon, from all parts of ·this Province. The process that was implemented by thE!

Minister at thE! bE!ginntng was totally confusing. rhe Minister was on one day rnaldng a statement about amalgamation, the Premier was on the next day saying something else, and on, and on, and on, it WE!nt. It bE!Came• a joke. The people of Spanish Room are representative of a lot of communities in this Province who were put on the Mintster's hit 1ist for amalgamation against their wish. The Government. HoUS('! Leader can shake his head but these are facts. In pr·inci.ple uJE! have altJJays said the pr·inciple oF amalgamation is not one that we oppose.

In Fact we suppoi"U:!d il: whE!n we were Gover•nmE!nt tn a number of areas but in th·e areas where we supported it, it was don~ uli·th the approval of the pE!ople, the peoplE! in the• cornrnuniti(~S affected. That is the difft:!rence in this particular process, eVE:'n though the Premier himself has said, as I unde!rstand, unless he was misquoted, said himself that: no community will be forced to amalgamate beyond their ur.ishes, No. 13 r'2 a

except that he throws in this little caveat now, and they say, well the Government will not order amalgamation against their wishes, we will bring it to the House of Assembly. What kind of fools do they think we are?

I mean the Members in the House of Assembly have a majority and they have a minority, the majority is made up of the Government Members, and if the Government Members and the Cabinet says, we are going to impose amalgamation on this community, but we tAJill not do it by the Cabinet, we will try to fool the people a 1 i ttle bit and say we are going to bring it to the House of Assembly, everybody in this world knows it will be done because of the Liberal Government 1 s majority. So they need not try to fool anybody by taking that route.

If they do not have the courage themselves to make the decision as a Government, then do not try and pawn it off by saying, oh, the House of Assembly somehow is going to be the body that will make these decisions. Mr. Speaker, the people of Spanish Room have spoken. They have spoken clearly. AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible). MR. SIMMS: Yes, and they have made their views known at the public hearing called by the Minister, which he was not going to call at the beginning and would not have called except for the fuss that was created and the fuss that was kicked up by a number of people.

But their Member, they can be very proud of their Member, the people form Spanish Room. This is the same Member, Mr . Speaker, that has led a month 1 s to month 1 s fight, the Member for Burin - Placentia L29 March 29, 1990 Vol XLI West (Mr. Tobin) is the same Member that has led a fight for the last several months, day afl:er day, in this House of Assembly calling on the Government to complete that road to Pet.i t Forte and finally today we saw t:he results of his efforts. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMS: And, Min. Speaker, in this sarnE!

Wc\Y the people of Spanish Room can be proud of the representation of their Member today because I feel quite certain that becauSE! of his representations, the same results will come about. They will get their wish. They will not be amalgamated with the Town of Marystown, and it lAiill because of that Member over therE!, if thE:'Y do not want it he l!Jill not go along with it, Mr. Speaker. He did a great job today, and I support him in his petition. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the Member For Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN : Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker .

I have a petition to present today. fishing community in the District of SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. WARREN: also that I tArish It is frorn thE! of Pinsen-t:s Arm Eagle River. Yes, hon. Mr. Speaker, I advised Member for Eagle River the (Mr. No. 13 R29

Dumaresque) that I did have a petition from his District. I talked to him earlier. and Mr. Speaker, the hon. Member recognizes that I do have a petition and he also knows what the petition is about . Now, Mr. Speaker, the prayer of the petition - AN HON. MEMBER: Repeat that again. MR. WARREN: Pinsents Arm is in the District of Eagle River, Mr. Speaker. The prayer of the peti t.ion is as follows: We the undersigned the residents of Labrador are concerned with health care that is presently available through the Grenfell Regional Health Services.

Concerns have been expressed that patients are not receiving the proper health care. Wherefore your petition we humbly pray that your Honourable House may be pleased to take immediate steps to support a public inquiry into health care in Labrador. Now, Mr. Speaker, for the last number of years and in particular for· the last eleven months I have been after the Minister of Health to put aside the politics once and for all, and recognize that the people of Labrador neE!d better health care than they are presently receiving from the Grenfell Regional Health Services Board. Now, Mr.

Speaker, some time ago I asked a question of the Minister in this House concerning patients transferred from the Coast of Labrador to the Happy Valley/Goose Bay area. Mr . Speaker, at the time the:~ Minister spoke in this House, and it is on record, the Minister said publicly that he was not satisfied with the health care that was being L30 March 29, 1990 Vol XLI delivered in Labrador. The Minister has said that publicly in this House. Now, Mr.

Speaker, if as a Minister of the Crown he dOE!S not beli.E!VE! that health care is beinq delivered in the most humane manner possible to the peopl'" in Labrador, then the:~ Minister should do as this petition requests. and that is have a public inquiry into health care. MR. REID: That was health care like down there this time last year? MR. WARREN: -··-·-·------·-· Now, Mr. Speaker, let me say to the hon. gentlernt-ln that hE!a1.th care anywhere:~ in this Provine';! is not as good as it should be. Every year we are advancing further and further toward thE! twenty-first century.

I say to the hon. the Member for CarbonE!ar (Mr. Reid), last year there WE!rE! people within the · Government of the day who showed a 1i.ttlE! mol~,:! concern for health care in Labrador than the present Minister of Environment and Lands dOE:!S. Mr. Speaker, th€~ MinistE!r of Environment and Lands has bE!E'n requested for the last year to meet with the Happy Valley Town Council, in his own district, and he has not said yE•s yet. OnE! of the biggest issues is h'O!a1th carE! and the new hospital for Happy Valley -Goose Bay.

The new hospital for Happy Val1,?.y Goose Bay will also help the residents of Eagle River and Torngat Mountains. That is why the hospital is needed for Goose Bay, it is for ce'ntral Labt'ador. I am surprised the Minister of Environment and Lands is not speaking up For the people of Labrador, Mln. SpE:~aker. He is not No. 13 lBO

<!!. speaking up for the people of Labrador! Mr. Speaker, on two occasions in the last week we have seen two major cuts, plus no money for the new hospital. I understand the Government House Leader has asked the Member for Eagle River not to say anything for or against this petition. I hope the Member for Eagle River lAlill get to his feet, because I think hE! can do a much better job than the Minister of Health is doing. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon; gentleman's time is up. The hon. the Minister of Health. MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, as hon.

Member's know, this Government has a tremendous commitment t.o health care throughout the Province, especially as it relates to Labrador. However, in speaking to this particular petition I have to advise hon. Members that although the prayer of the petition is a sensible one and I am sure the people who signed it were genuine, I cannot say the same about the hon. Member who is presenting the petition. I have here a copy of a letter . MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, he cannot question (inaudible). AN HON. MEMBER: He is speaking to the petition . MR . SIMMS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR.

SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the L31 March 29, 1990 Vol XLI Opposition House Leader . MR. SIMMS: As is often the wont of this particular MinistE!r, I do not know why he does, if hE! does it deliberately or if he knows he does it, but he is so irritat .ing. He got up and he said he does not question the genuineness of the people who signed the pE!U .tion, he does not question the genuinent::~ss of the prayer of the-:~ pe·ti tion, but he cannot say the same about the Member who presented the petition. Now surely, Mr. SpE!aker, that is out of order and unparliamentary.

You cannot question a Membere's motives . MR. SPEAKER: The Chair did not hear the remarks by the Minister of Health, but the Chair takes the points made by the Opposition House Leader. I am sure if the Minister of Health has said anything untoward, that he will do the appropriate thing. The hon. the Minister of Health. MR. DECKER: Thank you. Mr. SpE:~aker. I have a letter, Mr. Speakr:,~r. from Poinsent Arm on Labradol", siqned by Pegqy Twyne, who obviously doid not undE!rstand the shE!nardgans that her Member was up to. She satd. 'Dear Mr. Decker: Please SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

DECKER : ThE!Y know what. is corning, Mr. Speaker. They know what ois coming. 'pleaSE! find encJ.osed a copy of a petition sent to me for circulation by Mr . Garfield Warren . It has been circulated and stgned by the residents of Pinsent Ann. No. 13 1n1

Other copies, 1 she says, 1 are being sent to Premier Wells and Danny Dumrnaresque . 1 Now, Mr. Speaker, that is a concocted petition if ever I have seen one. Now, let me tell hon. Members some of the things we are doing for Labrador. If the hon. Members would go to the last Budget and look at page 219 of the Estimates, 44, Subsection 03, there they IAiill see Community Clinics. That is a little over $2 million . That, Mr . Speaker, is for heaJ.th clinics at Hopedale and Davis Inlet in the hon. Member 1 s District. That is what we are doing. AN HON. MEMBER : Where? MR.

DECKER: In Hopedale and Davis Inlet, in the Member 1 s District. The hon. Member talks about the condition of the health care system in Newfoundland and Labrador today. I agree tAli th him. His Administration was in power for seventeen years and we s aw s e v e n t e e n y 1::1 a r s of neg 1 e c t i n the health care system in this Province. There was a freeze, Mr. Speaker, where not a nail was driven, not a window was fixed, and not a roof was touched. There was an absolute freeze, Mr. SpE!ai<E!r. In this Y•:lar 1 s Budget, . Mr.

SpE!aker, the Department of Health is spending $834 million to try to correct some of the damage which that Administration, when they were in power, inflicted upon the health care system of this Province. We cannot do it overnight. We have only been in power ten short mon·ths. In these few months we have taken health care and we have raised it from L32 March 29, 1990 Vol XLI thE! depths to tAJh'i ch they aJ.lowed it to sink, and we have put it: up now so that it holds a predominant position in the Budget of this Province. That is why I am proud to say that Mrs.

Twyne, tAJho, not understanding the garrH:1 ful] y, not understanding the manipulation that her Member is putting upon her, instead of sending the pe!ti tion back to thE! hon. ME!rnber as he had wanted her to do, she sent the letter back to me. MS VERGE: Do not underestimnate that woman . MR. DECKER: WeJ.l, if you do not want me to underestimate her, maybe she does understand the game, and she wanted to show me the silliness and the shenanigans that her Member is up to. Thank you. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MS DUFF: ----··· .. ·- Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR . SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member For St. . John • s East . MS DUFF: ---··-·--·-Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I am rising to support the petition of my hon . collE!ague, thE! Member for Torngat Mountains. I arn very sorry, in listening to the Minister, whom I expected to really address the issUE!S in ·thE! petition rather than disintergrate into an at.tacl< on t:hE! ME!rnbel~, br:1cauSE! this Minis l:er, in fact, I think is very genuinely concE~rnE!d No. 13 R32

about hea1th carli:~ in Labrador and he has reason to be, he lives in a District that is very close to the coast of Labrador, and when he was a Member himself he was very frequently raising issues. He has attacked the genuineness of this petition, and I would like to just make a point on that. If an hon. Member, and in rny months of contact with this hon. Member, he is constantly receiving complaints and solicitations from his consti tutents who have problems and who come to him and as I< him what are the means that I can use to have my concerns addrE!SSed in the House of Assembly?

Now I would say many of us are in the same position, that people comli:~ to us and say, how can I get my votce heard in the House of Assembly? I thtnk it is quite within an hon. Member's responsibilities to advise his constituents that a petition is one of the ways in which this concern can be addressed. Now I have read the Member's - AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible) another man's District . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MS DUFF: I think we are getting away from the point.

The point at issue here is that we have an arr:1a of this Province, the coast of Labrador, which, by reason of its geography, by reason of thii:1 fact that it has a very large native population, by reason of the fact that it has great poverty and social problems that are associated tJJith native populations in a coastal community, has heal.th issues that are substantially different from heal.th issues L33 March 29, 1990 Vol XLI elsewhere in the Province. This area has been concerned for sometime about how well a St.

Anthony-based Grenfell Associat·:.Lon is addt~essing those nE!eds, and onE! of the things that needs to be addressed is IJ..Jhether or not thE!re is need for a separate board on the Coast of Labrador. Now, in answer to your allegatton that nothing was done previously, I can tell hon. Members, and I would like to have it on the record, that in the past six YE!at"S alone, very largely due to the untiring efforts of the hon. Member for the ar•:1a, l:here have been six separate heal.th c1inics opened on the Coas l: of Labr·ador: in Makkovik, in PostvillE!, in Rigolet, in Forteau and in two other areas.

So I wouJ.d not ca11 that doing nothing. This hon. Member was moving vc:1ry strongly toward getting something done about the hospital in Goose Bay. In fact, ther·e was money in the Budget last year, a Budget which has been admitted had bE!en largely prepared by the previous Adrrdnistration, to do planning fot~ an upgraded hospital in Goose Bay, very necessary since thE!re was a phaseout by the Grenfell Association of the Notnthwes t. RiUE!In Cottage Hospital. What happened to that?

This hospita1 is totally inadequate, and this GouernnH:1nt has now taken al.l funds out of the Budget for a new hospital in Goose Bay, which is very hard to understand from a Minister who purports to understand the seriousness of the health issues in this part of our Province. I am totaJ.ly arnaZE!d that the hon. Member for Eagle Riuer has been so quiE!t about t.hE! hea1th issues dealing with northern Newfoundland and the Coast of Latwador', and the No. 13 R33

hon. the Minister of Environment and Lands, IJ.Jho is based in Goose Bay and more than any one else must know how the people in Goose Bay feel about that. Because when I was in Goose Bay, less than a year ago, with the Federation of Municipalities, that was one of the big issues that was raised, and there was great joy in Goose Bay because there was planning funds in the Budget. I imagine there is great sorrow in Goose Bay right now because of the signal that has been given by the Minister, that those funds have been totally eliminated from the Budget.

But I think it is important l:hat we not lose sight of what is at issue here, and what is being asked for, and that is simply a concern with the health care and a petition to have a public inquiry into the health care in Labrador. The need i s the r e we a 11 k now . I t has been on Here and Now, it has been in letters that have been tabled, it is here. With or without this petition I think we do know that there are serious concerns about the adequacy and the best method of delivering health care to the Coast of Labrador and Happy Valley - Goose Bay.

I would think that a petition to have a public inquiry so that we can lay down once, and for a11 and hear from the people once and for all, what is needed and take some action to correct these problems would be an eminently sensible and humane action for this Government to take. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker . L3 .q. March 29, 1990 Vol XLI MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Member for Grand FalJ.s. MR. SIMMS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I have the privilege of presenting a petition today on behalf of residents of Grand Falls, Windsor, and Bishop's Falls.

When I was in my constituency last week, as a matter of fact, some pE!OpJ.e approached me about: the issue of moose accidents on the highway and the need for an increase in rnoose licences. I suggested to them that if they wished, they could get a petition together and I would be quite happy to present it on their behalf. AN HON. MEMBER : Quite legitimate . MR. SIMMS: Because of the short time they had, I was going back the next day - I was only out there for a day - they managed to get fifty names on this following petid.on.

I wouJ.d like to read the prayer of the petition for the benefit of Members of the House, parttculalnly Members opposite, and parU.culalnJ.y the Minister of Environment who is responsible for wildlife. 'A petition to the House of AssE!rnbly: To .the hon.

HousE• of Assembly of Newfoundland in legislative Session convened perfectly in order, perfectly proper -- • The pE!U .tion of the undersigned residents of Grand Falls, Windsor and Bishop Falls, that, 1, the nurnber of accidents on our highways involving moose is unacceptably high; and 2. t:he number of moose licences issued to persons in l:his Province has not increased in proportion lo lhe increase in the moose population; No. 13 R 3 .q.

t:C wherefore your· petitioners urge the Government of NE!lAJfoundland and Labrador to take immediate steps to increase the number of moose licences available to the people of this Province and as in duty bound your petitioners will ever pray. 1 Mr. Speaker, they did not have enough room on ·the front page of the petition. They even added - MR. MURPHY : Who signed it? MR. SIMMS: Now the han. the Member for St. John 1 s South, unfortunately, has a habit of speaking when he should not speak. And opening his mouth one time, is sometimes once too often.

This particular matter of accidents on our highways involving moose which have caused deaths on our highways is not something to make a joke of. I can assure him this petition is not meant to be presented in a humourous ·fashion. I am sure he did not mean to rna k E! 1 ig ht of it., but. I am cautioning him he should not, becauSE! it is a serious matter. Mr. Speaker, I am sure the Minister would even agree with me.

In the past number of years, as a matter of fact, but in .particular over the last year or so, I have had pE!Ople approach me about the number of moose accidents on the highway, particularly those accidents which caused death. The Minister is probably more familiar than any of us - he should be, I guess - with the statistics, and maybe if he says a few wo1nds to the:~ petition he might enlighten us a little bit as to what those statistics a1ne. L3 5 March 29, 1990 Vol XLI I am not sure if the number of htghway deaths attributE!d to moose accidents has been increasing or not.

I have the feeling that it. has been, but I am not quite certain. As a matter of fact, I also remember it has been an ong ·oing problem and an ongoing concern and people have expressed their concerns from time to timE! about this particular matter. I have correspondence in my office from constituents, and I have had phone calls from constitUE!nts and people from outside my constituency, expressing a 1ot of· concern.

A lot of time it is pE!Ople who have been affE!Cted by i·t, perhaps somebody in their fami1y or a rc:~laU.ve, or whatE!Ver, has been injured in an accident or, heaven forbid, even diE!d as a result of an accident on the highway. I remc:~mbE!r one:' time in recent yr:~ar, I, myself, put questions to the wildlife people about whether anything could have been done to prevent this from occurring.

And the wildlife people, I know, at. onE! tirne ta1ked about doing some studies to determine whether or not a certain kind of chemical, or sornethtng of that nature, sprayed alon~1 the highways could be helpful in preventing the moose frorn moving onto the roads. Unfortunately, the funding tAJas not providc:1d, and was probably done during our l~ime in office, I do not know. I am not attributing blame or anything, but that t.vas one of the things thE! Wildlife Division itself was looking into or considering.

Then you had a suggE!SU.on by another Member of the House, I believe last session, about this particular issue, suggesting that maybe some kind of make - work projr:!cts could· be unclertakl':~n to cut the brush back further from No. 13 1~3 5

the highway's edge, so that that might help preuent the moose from coming onto the highway. I belieue the Member for La Poile at one time euen suggested a larger, much more grandiose make-work scheme, to build a fence, I think, on both sides of the highway, from Port aux Basques to St. John's. I think that one might be a long time coming! Neuertheless, Mr. Speaker, the point is madE! and made uery well by the people who haue signed this petition, that there is an alarming number of accidents on our highways attributed to moose, and a large number of deaths, and we hope something might be done about it.

One of the proposals the petitioners make, of course, is that if there was a further increase in moose licences, that might help. Now, I know there has been an increase in licencing ouer the last few years, an increase in licences in uarious parts of the Prouince. I guess what the petitioners are saying is there should be euen more. With the change the Minister introduced in the big game licence draw this year, where it appears that more priority now will be giuen to indiuiduals as opposed to party groups, as it was in the past, maybe, in fact, it could be easier to prouide more licences for big game hunters.

So, it may be something the Minister could address when the petition is referred to him and to his Department for a response, but, in the meantime, he has an opportunity in this short time frame, during petitions, to perhaps comment on it, and I would like to hear from him exactly what L36 Malnch 29, 1990 Vol XLI the situation is . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order please! The hon . Member's time has expired . MR. SIMMS: Thank you , Mr. Speaker. MR . KELLAND: Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. ·the Minister· of Enuironment and Lands. MR. KELLAND : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I apologize to the hon.

ME!ITib(~r for not quite hearing all the praye!r of the petition; there wa~ some background noise and I did not get it all. Howeuer, I knou.J th1?. general content and the concern about what is really a UE!ry ualuable resource, the moose population in our Prouince. Neuertheless, ouer1niding alJ. of that is euery han. Member's concern about the safety of J.ifE! and property. We receiued some statistics, to mention that First of all, Mr. Speaker, from my hon. colleague, the Minister of Works, Seruices and Transportation. I think thE!Y are significant, and I might just mention some of them.

They are auailable in more detail for anyone who wishes to haue them . Up to and accidents in excess accidents, MR. SIMMS : including October, 1989, generally numbered well of 10,000. In those there were 2,500-odd- Would you rn:ind sayinq that aga:in? In what. pe_riod? No. 13 rn6

MR. KELLAND: For 1989, up to and including October - all acciden-ts I arn speaking about nolAJ, just to giVE! you the background - substantially over 10,000. In those accidE!nts, there were 2,500-plus-a-few injuries, and the number of fatalities from all accidental causes was sixty-three. In the moose accidents in the same t:.ime frame, 1989, up to and including October, there were 395 moose/vehicle accidents, a very, very significant number, there were 100 injuries and, saddest and worst of all, I am sure everybody will agree, there were three fatalities in that time. It appears ·to be fairly constant.

We have some refE!rence, at timE!S, back to 1987 and 1988, as well. It would seem there is no real decrease. It either maintains a certain level of consistency or it seems to increase, so three fatalities this year; there was one, I believe, the year before, and so on. It is a matter of concern because, certainly, one fatality is one too many, and we have to take steps any way we can to try to alleviate that situation and, at the same time, control the moose population, forgetting the accident part but keeping in mind good management practices. I do not have the exact figures to give the han.

Member today, but there is quite a substantial increase in the allocation of moose this year, as there was last year, I belieVC::1 something in the arE!a of 2, 500 extra J.icences. I do not have the exact figure, but there is a substantial allocation in the resident hunting and a fair increase in the non-resident hunting through outfitters. L37 Ma1nch 29, 1990 Vol XI...I I can give t~be exact figure at a later tirnC::1, if the ME!rrtbE!ln so wishes, but that. is only onE! aspect of controlling vdlicle• and moose acciden·ts. Obviously, j usl: increasing the quota itself will not fo it.

And we have been examining ways, as the hon. ME!mber suggests, of finding some other means of controlling or reducing the incidents of vehicle and moose acd.dents. We do not have any final ansWC::1rs, but we are going as far atAJay as Scandinavia for information, whe1ne they do have a substantial problem along thC::1 sarn~::1 ' Jines. nurnbC::'ring many, many times more l:.han we have, not so much in Labrado1n, but mainly on the Island of Newfoundland.

We are going to use that typ~::1 of information plus other suggestions to try to corne up with a comprehensive package, whether it is cutting back thE! brush, as I believe one of the Members suggested, on certain roads which appear to be congested, by considering the effect that road salt apparent:ly has in at:tr·acting wildlife and bJ.g gam~:! out. t:.o the road areas. There has beE!n some thought about that. HotAJ do you solve that? Would you put salt licks a distance from the road, for example, which would attract the big game animals, thE! moose•. into the off road areas?

At~ the same tirn~::1, that. may crE!ate another problem from a management point of view and, perhaps, even from a safety point of view as far as hunters are concerned. So all these things are being considered. We have no f:i.nal answer bE!Cause lhE!lne is no si.rnpJ.E• answer, Mr. Speaker. But. it:. :i.s a continuing project, one of which, as the Mernber suggests, is a No . . 13 R37

substantial increase in 'the moose allocation for the coming season. MR. SPEAKER: Before recognizing the Member for Kilbride. I would 1 ike to identify the · questions for the Late Show this evening. I apologize t.o the hon. the Opposition House Leader if I have disarranged the order of these when I was reading them. The first one I have is, I am dis satisfied with an answer given to me by the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs concerning the suggested mil rate for the town of Flat Rock, from the hon. the Member for St. John's East Extern (Mr. Parsons). The second one is from the Member for Menihek (Mr.

Snow) stating his dissatisfaction with an answer given to him by the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs concerning cut-backs in recreation and travel funds for youth in Labrador. The third one comes from the Member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) expressing his dissatisfaction with an answer given to him by the Minister of Finance with respect to Budget cuts. The hon. the Member for Kilbride . MR . R. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I am sorry I missed you there. I did not know if you were finished or not . I would like to have a few brief words on this pE!ti tion, Mr. Spc~aker. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! Just for the point of clarification of the Chair. I was out and I do not know where we L38 March 29, 1990 Vol XLI are. Was this a new petition? AN HON. MEMBER: He is the second speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you -:· .. - MR. R. AYLWARD: As the Opposition House Leader said I wish to comment on a petition which he had so ably presented to this House a few minutes ago, a petition from some seventy-six residents of the Central Newfoundland area, people which cover three electoral Districts, ' Grand Falls, Wtndsor, and Bishop Fal1s.

The prayer of their petition. as was s ta l:~:·d in this Assembly has to do lAJ:i.Lh thE! amount, the number of moose, L•Jh :i.ch are increasing in this Province. I have no doubt that all of us would believe that. We seem to have a very good habitat for the moose population in this Province. We do have a lot of moose and they are increasing very fast in this Province.

A lot of them seem to, I guess, with the improvement in our roads and tAd.th more roads being built in this Province, I guess we are going to see speed limits in creas e throughout our Province and because of this I would say we are going to see an incr10:1as(! in traffic accidents because of the moose population and because o·F improved highways. AN HON. MEMBER : There is also vehicles . MR. R.

AYLWARD : an incr·easc~ in We have an increase in vehicles and an increase in traffic mileage on our highway b10:~ cause pc:~op 1 e arc~ becoming more affluent, whether we all believe l:hat or not, at certain time s there are more No. 13 R3 8

vacationers on our roads. I see more recreation vehicles througho~t the summer on our highways. We are going to have more commercial traffic on our highways because of improvements made to the highways and improvements made to the transportation system in this Province, mostly because of the former Government. It is interesting to note some of the signatures on this petition. I do note that one signature is A. Snow. I am not sure if that is our Deputy Speaker but he does not live in that area. It could be a relative of the Deputy Speaker for this House. There are names.

Terr·ance Aylward. who could or could not be a relative of either one of us in the House. I am not sure it is a relative of mine. I do want to comment on some of the reasoning for - AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible) one of a kind . MR. R. AYLWARD: I do not know if there is a relative so it might be a conflict. I remember when we were doing some investigation on the moose accidents in the Province and if there could be an increase in licences. The wildlife biologists, those in charge of the moose count, I suppose in the Province, always felt that they never had enough money to do the proper studies.

They were always doing some studies but they never figured they had enough to do an indept study as they felt was necessary to get a good count of moose in the Province, so they always set the quotas for moose licences at the low end of the scale so that if they werE! going to err on how many mooses licenses could be put out fn this Province L39 March 29, 1990 Vol XLI they were going to err on the side of conservation to make sure they would not damage the moose population or moose stocks in t:he Province. I believe, Mr.

Speaker, there was a sizable amount of money requested by the wildlife biologists to do proper studies. I am not sure if they got that money yet. I hav.:~ not looi<E~d at the Budget of the wildlife Division of the Department, but there was a great need for ext1na monies to complete the s·tudies of moose population. so that l~o.Je couJ d kn01..u if they were at dang•O!rously high levels, particularly in areas near our highway.

One other thing I would like to say to the Minister is that thE!l"e was an experiment done just WE!St of the Foxtrap Access one timE~. a studied experiment where brush was cut along the Trans-Canada Highway. and for a couple of Y•~ars I think some of the University professors were involved in it. It was a make IAJork project but it has a direct influence on this pE!ti tion. There werE! studies donE! and I have never heard a result of it. Now in the area that was studied and cleared there is a two - lane highway so it is irrelevant of what happens in that area now.

But we did have a couple of year's where sorne people at Memorial University did do some studies. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I want to inform the hon. gentleman that his time is up. MR. R. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. No. 13 1n9

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Orders of the Day MR. BAKER: Motion 12, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: Motion 12 - Meech Lake . MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Is the hon. the Leader of the Opposition up on a point of order? MR. RIDEOUT: No, no I just just going to proceed. Your Honour has to make a ruling, I guess. I am sorry. MR. SPEAKER: Yes. I am now prepared to rule on the amendment proposed by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition to the resolution of the hon. the Premier on March 27. Standing Order 36 states 'That a motion may be amended (

a) by leaving out certain words; (

b) by leaving out certain words in order to insert other words; (

c) by inserting or adding words. 1 The hon. the Leader of the Opposition moved that the resolution be referred to a Select Committee of the House of Assembly to be called the Select Committee on the Constitution With the Power to Examine the Following: (

a) the resolution to revoke the Meech Lake . Accotnd; (

b) the constitutionality of the referendum proposal contained in the Accord and; (

c) the constitutional proposal of the Government. And that the Select Committee be empowered to hold hearings within and outside the ProvinCE! and to take evidence from L4-0 March 29, 1990 Vol XLI witnesses residing both in the Province and outside the Province. After extensive consultation and research and study and consultation with experts in the Province and outside of the Province it is my opinion that the amendment proposed by the han. the Leader of the Opposition faiJ.s to comply with any of these requirements. As it is presented as a distinct motion without referencr:1 to the original motton.

It does not conform u.Jith our Standing Orders nor with precedents. I therefore rule the amendment inadmissible. MR. RIDEOUT: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition, on a point of order? MR. RIDEOUT: ·yes, I t~o.lill be veiny, very briE!F I do not want to take any timE! from the Member for Stephenville (Mr. K. Aylward). Mr. Speaker, tJJhen tAH;! were at the point on Tuesday night when I moved the amendment I think I had about Five or six minutes or so remaining in my spr:1aldng U.mE·. That time, of course, was used with both sides of thE!

House making the argument as to whE!ther or not the am~::1ndrn~;!nt. tJJas in order. Now I Fully recognize and concur that comes out of rny speaking time and that legitimately and legally my speaking time is over. I arn not rnald.ng any wrangle about that. Of course the same thing applies to the Prernter, and I think for' the last ten minutes of his remarks on Tuesday, because we had rat sed points of orde1n, we had taken about ten minutes or so of the Premier 1 s time and we agr1:=!Pd for the Premier to have it. No. 13 Rll-0

I lAJonder would the House give me the courtesy of fiVE! or six minutes just to do the same thing? MR. SPEAKER: Is it the decision of the House? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. SPEAKER: It is concurred. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT: And obviously, Mr. Speaker, that will have nothing to do with the thirty minutes for the hon. Member for Step he nvi lle. It wi 11 not be taken out of his ·time. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I want to thank Members on both sides of the House for extending the same courtesy ·to me that was extended by us to the Premier, and I see nothing wrong with that. Mr. Speaker, in about five minutes or so that I have left I just want to take the opportunity to make one particular point. I guess it was the point we were trying to make in the amendment that I moved on Tuesday night.

I believe that it is vitally important to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador that there be the widest possible understanding and the greatest possible understanding of the implications for Newfoundland and Labrador if this constitutional impasse that the country finds itself in at the present time is not broken. And I believe that it is incumbent on the Government - it is incumbent on us all but it is particularly incumbent on the Government .. - ·to L'l·l Mard1 29, 1990 Vol XLI establish a process whereby the people can, themselves, become involved in what is happening here.

To take the unprecedented s·tep of rescinding a constitutional approval given by another Legislature without refE!Y'ri ng that along with the accompanying alternatives proposed by the Government to the p~ople, I belieVE! is wrong, Mr. SpE!akel~. It can equally be argued that we were lAJrong two years ago, but. tlAJo wrongs do not make a right. But I believe, Mr. Sp~aker, the unprecedented nature of this particular move to rE!Scind an approval given by another LegisJ.aturE! should be rE!fE!l~l~ed to the people for appropriate consultation.

I cannot accept tha·t it has been good E!nough, l:he Government 1 s position that maybe at some time we will refer our own proposed constitution amendments. Maybe they will, maybe they will not. But that is onJ.y ha1 f the problem, Mr. Speaker, or half l:he matter. The other half is the rescinding resolution that we are now dE!bating. And, M1~. Speaker, timE! is runn:i.ng out. The clock is moving very, very quickly. We an~ now almost up to the end of March and if you are going to haVE! an appropriatE! round of public hearings I suppose you lAJould certainJ.y want a rnonl:h or so to do it.

I cannot sr::'e how you could do it much faster than that. And, you know, thE! Easl:er break is coming and you wouJ.d have to get a commit·tee struck and get up and running and schr:,dulE!d and all that kind of thing. So, you know, those things do not take a lot of time, Mr. Speaker, but they do take some time. So, Mr. Speaker, I am disappointed that the Government had not concurred in doing that. No. 13 R'l·l

Mr. Speaker, finally before my time runs out. I have listened very carefully to Your Honour 1 s ruling on amendments about adding to and taking away from resolutions according to our Standing Orders. And I would like to moue, before my time finally elapses, seconded by the Member for Grand Falls (Mr.

Simms) that the resolution be amended by inserting before the words, 11 to certify to his exce1lency, the Governor General, authorization of the said amendment by this House, 11 thE! following words. 11 And following written notice by the Speaker to ihe Members of the House of assembly. 11 I have copies here for the Speaker and for the Government if we have a page, Mr. Speaker. MR. SIMMS: After the Cabinet makes its decision, before he notifies the Governor General, he notifies the Members of the House first. MR. RIDEOUT: And thE! ··-SpE!aker must formerly authorize the Members of the House. Mr.

Speaker, I assume you tAiill want a minute or so to look at it when it arrives and to determine whether or not it is in order. I think it is, and I would ask Your Honour to advise me accordingly. MR. SPEAKER: If the han. gentleman would permit, I would just like to recess for a couple of minutes. Recess MR. SPEAKER : Order, pJ.ease! Before ruling on the amendment I Lll-2 March 29, 1990 Vol XLI would like to point out to han . Members the inadequacy of many of our Orders and it will only take a few moments. I can assure hon.

MembE:1rs in the particular area we are in, there arE! s orne largE! inadequacies in the rules and proceedings of our HouSE!. I tAJouJ.d direct the Members who are on t:he appropriate cornrni ttee to CE!rtainJ.y take a look at this particular area. Having said that, I ru1E! thE! amendment in order. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker . Maybe now we will hear from the han. the Minister of Health about drafting amendments that are in order or are not in ordE!r.

The snarky J.ittle comment that the Minister made when the First amendment - AN HON. MEMBER: He was only joking . MR. RIDEOUT: You have to test thE! lAJaters, Mr. Speaker, to see what confor'rns tAdth the various ruJ.es and the precedents of this House. Some do and some do not. Sometimes amendments get accepted or rejected for thE! fJ.irnsiE~st of reasons but there is altAJdys a precedent to back it up, Mr. Speaker. You test enough and euentua11y, hopefully, you wi11 find something that does conform with the rules and this arnE!ndrnent as ruled by th1:> Speaker obu:i.ously does. No. 13 R '~·2

l..J Now, Mr. Speaker, the amendment would authorize or make certain that the Speaker of this Legislature would formally give written notice to every Member of this House of Assembly before Your Honour gives the appropriate notice to the Governor General of Canada. I think it would be totally discourteous. Obviously Members would know from the news media what the results of a referendum had been. We do not live in isolated cages, we would know that. But we are also, Mr.

Speaker, elected Members of this House and for the Speaker of this House not to have to take the courtesy to wri·te to every Member of this Legislature, to formally inform every Member of this Legislature the official result, Mr. Speaker, of the referendum, before informing somebody else in written form outside the Province, I belie-ve would be totally inappropriate. So, therefore, Mr. Speaker,· that is why we have proposed this amendment. Now, Mr. Speaker, I said Tuesday night and I want to say again, that I believe we are heading for a time of great constitutional crisis in ·this c