Manitoba Hansard — 18 AprU 1994 (Sitting 8A, 35th Legislature, 5th Session)

35-5-8a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth-Session • Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker Vol. XLill No. SA- 1:30 p.m., Monday, AprU 18, 1994 ISSN 0542-5492

NAME ASHTON, Steve BARRETI, Becky CARST AIRS, Sharon CERlLLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILM ON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political AffiUatlon CONSTirUENCY Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charles wood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley GAUDRY, Neil Gll.LES HAMMER, HaroldrHon. GRAY. Avis St. Boniface Minnedosa Crescentwood Gimli HEL WER, Edward R. IDCKES, George KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATin.IN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCORMICK, Norma McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. P ALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon.

REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN. Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann Point Douglas The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Osborne Brandon West· Assiniboia River East Pembina Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Rossmere K.irkfield Parle FlinFlon La Verendrye Fort Garry Swan River PARTY.

NDP NDP Liberal NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal Liberal NDP PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC Liberal PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP

306 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, April18, 1994 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS APM Incorporated Remuneration and Pharmacare and Home Care Reinstatement Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of L. Meyers, N. LeBlanc, C. Connan and others requesting the Legi slative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Premier (Mr. Filmon) to personally step in and order the repayment of the $4 million paid to Connie Curran and her firm APM Incorporated and consider cancelling the recent cuts to the Phannacare and Home Care programs. Mr.

Conrad Santos (Broadway): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Fred Heiland, Alice Zdril, Rosemary Heiland and others requesting the Leg islative Assem bly of Manitoba urge the Pre mi er to person ally step in and order the repayment of the $4 mill ion paid to Connie Curran and her firm APM Incorporated and consider cancelling the recent cuts to the Phannacare and Home Care programs. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Curran Contract Cancellation and Pharmacare and Home Care Reinstatement Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Clif Evans).

It compl ies with the privileges and the practices of the House and compli es with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Mr. Speaker: The Oerk will read. Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the Province of Manitoba, humbly sheweth that

WHEREAS the Manitoba government bas repeatedly broken prom ises to suppor t the Phannacare program and has in fact cut benefits and increased deductibles far above the inflation rate; and

WHEREAS the Ph armacare pro gram was brought in by the NDP as a preventative program which keeps people out of costly hospital beds and institutions; and

WHEREAS rather than cutting benefits and increasing deductibles the provincial governmeDl should be demanding the federal government cancel recent cuts to generic drugs that occurred under the Drog Patent Act; and WHER EAS at the same time Manitoba gover nment has als o cut home care and implemented user fees; and

WHEREAS the Manitoba government is giving an American health care consultant over $4 million to implement further cuts in health care. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly urge the Premier to personally step in and order the cancellation of the Connie Curran contract; and consider cancelling the recent cuts to the Pharmacare and Home Care programs. *

(1335) APM Incorporated Remuneration and Pharmacare and Home Care Reinstatement Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Dewar). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the roles. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read'? Some Honourable Members: Dispense.

307 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Aprill8, 1994 Mr. Speaker: Dispense. The petition of the undersigned citizens of the Province of Manitoba, humbly sheweth that: WHE REAS the Ma nitoba government has repeatedly bro ke n promises to support the Pharmacare program and has in fact cut benefits and increased deductibles far above the inflation rate; and

WHEREAS the Pharmacare program was brought in by the NDP as a preventative program which keeps people out of costly hospital beds and institutions; and

WHEREAS rather than cutting benefits and increasing deductibles the provincial government should be demanding the federal government cancel recent cuts to generic drugs that occurred under the Dntg Patent Act; and

WHEREAS at the same time Manitoba government has also cut home care and implemented user fees; and

WHEREAS the Manitoba government paid an American health care consultant over $4 million to implement further cuts in health care. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly urge the Premier to personally step in and order the repayment of the $4 million paid to Connie Curran and her firm APM Incorporated and consider cancelling the recent cuts to the Pharmacare and Home Care programs. Curran Contract Cancellation and Pharmacare and Home Care Reinstatement Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Hickes).

It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispense. The petition of the undersigned citizens of the Province of Manitoba, humbly sheweth that: WH EREAS the Mani toba government has repeatedly br oken promise s to support the Pharmacare program and has in fact cut benefits and increased deductibles far above the inflation rate; and

WHEREAS the Pharmacare prog ram was brought in by the NDP as a preventative program which keeps people out of costly hospital beds and institutions; and WHE REAS rather than cutting benefits and increasing deductibles the provincial government should be demanding the federal government cancel recent cuts to generic drugs that occurred under the Drug Patent Act; and

WHEREAS at the same time Manitoba government has also cut home care and implemented user fees; and

WHEREAS the Manitoba government is giving an American health care consultant over $4 million to implement further cuts in health care. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly urge the Premier to personally step in and order the cancellation of the Connie Curran contract; and consider cancelling the recent cuts to the Pharmacare and Home Care programs. TABUNG OF REPORTS Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minis ter of Government Services): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to table the Government Services Annual Report 1992-93; the Annual Report of the Fleet Vehicles Special Operating Agency for the year ended March 31, 1993 ; and the Seniors Director ate Annual Report 1992-93. Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Northern Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table today the 1992-93 Annual Report of the Department of Northern Affairs, as well as the Annual Report for the Communities Economic Development Fund for the year ended March 31, 1993. Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have with us this afternoon, from the Red River Community College, 18 Secondary Language Program students under the direction of Ms. Lucy Epp. This school is located in the

April18, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 308 constituency of the honourable member for Point Douglas (Mr. llickes). Also this afternoon, from the Nelson Mcintyre Collegiate we have twenty-two Grades 8 to 12 students under the direction of Ms. Faye Barsy, Mr. Jordy Cameron and Mr. Garth Collier. This school is located in the constituency of the hono ur able member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry). On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Lerner Report Release Request Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Premier. Over the weekend, again we had some problems in the emergency wards with closures of some emergency wards on a temporary basis, patients backed up in the hallways and considerable public concern about the impact on their ability to access our emergency wards. Mr. Speaker, this is not a new issue in terms of Manitoba and the urban hospital emergency wards.

In response to a similar problem, four years after being elected, in 1992, th e government commissioned a review committee dealing with both the emergency ward situation at Concordia Hospital and a review of all the hospital emergency wards in Winnipeg. They announced that in a press release on May 19, 1992. Of course, because this is such a very major public issue for people in terms of the emergency ward situations, I would like to ask the Premier: Does his government have a copy of the report that they announced in May of 1992?

Will he make that report available to members of the Legislature and members of the public so we can deal with some of the recommendations of emergency wards and their impact on patient care in Manitoba? Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I am sure that is a question that would be more appropriately asked of the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae). Just because in the

preamble the member tries to always bring in the spectre of budget cuts in the health care field, I just want to quote the Grace General Hospital president , Major Harold Thornhill, in the newspaper this morning where he said that "health-care cutbacks had nothing to do with yes ter day's situ ation. 'Cutbacks don•t increase the number of patients comi ng to hospital.' . . . . 'It was just a hectic day,' " adding that there have been no recent cuts in the number of beds.

Rather than try and tie this all in to another political issue, I wish that the member would be much more candid and honest in the way in which he tries to bring issues to this Legislature. Point of Order Mr. Doer: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, the only dishonesty in this House is the Premier has stated something that I never asked in my question. I never raised the issue of budget cutbacks. I would ask the Premier to withdraw ·his comm ents about honesty and keep his comments straight and to the record here published. Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

To deal with the point of order raised, the honourable First Minister in his response made reference to the fact about honest and honesty, and I believe there have been several occasions where I have asked the member to withdraw the unparliamentary word "honest." At this point in time, I am going to ask the honourable First Minister to withdraw the word "honest" that he has just used in his answer. "'

(1340) Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, I will be happy to withdraw the word "honest" in any reference to the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker: Thank you, sir. [mtetjectioo] Order. please. We have another issue here now. The official opposition House leader in his point of order used the word "dishonest." This also, sir, is unparliamentary. [inteJjection] Order, please. I will decide this. Now I would ask the Leader of the of fi cial opposit ion to withdraw the word "dishonest."

309 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April l8 , 1994 Mr. Doer: I withdraw it unequivocally. Mr. Speaker: Thank you, sir. ••• Mr. Speaker: Now, getting on with Question Period, the official opposition Leader. Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Sorry to start off the Monday in such a cantankerous way, but these are very important issues. Lerner Report Release Request Mr. Ga ry Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Now I asked the Premier a specif ic question dealing with the Moe Lerner Committee that the government commissioned some two years ago. The government has a copy of the report that they co mm ission ed.

It does have a number of recommendations based on the tenns of reference that they released in 1 992. I would like to ask the government: Will they now make public this report that they now have so that we can deal with the issues in our emergency wards in terms of the pressure on emer gency wards, the manpower issues that we have on the weekends, releasing patients on Sundays, which was one of the issues raise d, the issue of bed closures and what impact that has on patients in the hallway, and what issue patients in the hallway has on the emergency wanl itself?

Will the government now release the report that it commissioned two years ago dealing with the urban hospitals and the emergency wards? Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, indeed, this past weekend, because we had some very lovely weather as a matter of fact, I think a lot of Winnipeggers were out doing things perhaps they have not had the opportunity to do for some time. That did lead to some things that occurred over the weekend, and it put pressure on emergency rooms in Winnipeg. I am advised that nobody who was prioritized as needing emergent care went without that care.

I would like to point out that one point raised perhaps in the public media and repeated by the Leader of the Opp ositio n having to do with discharge policy at Grace Hospital, I am advised that the discharge policy at Grace is the same every day of the week, so that needs to be said too . With respect to the emergency services report, we are using the report and the people involved with it to help us in the development of policy. That report will be forthcoming in due course. Lerner Report Release Request Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, the government is using a report that they commissioned on behalf of the public. We have community-based hospitals that have made proposals to the government to close emergency wards in the midnight period of time at Concordia Hospital. It is in the minutes. At Seven Oaks Hospital, there was reference to that awhile ago. There is a lot of confusion about where the gover nment is going on the whole issue of eme rgency wards and how bed closures and hallway line-ups impact on emergency wards. Mr.

Spea ker, I would ask the government to release the report that they have so that the total public that is affected by changes in health care can be involved. One of the fundamental principles of dealing and changing our health care system is that we do it in consensus together, not in a back room in the minister's office. I would ask the government to release the report so we can have a debate about our health care services and we can all be involved, not just the selective government. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr.

Spea ker, I know that the Leader of the Opposition has been, in the course of his discussions-in fact, he is quoted in the Sel kirk Journal and on Richard Cloutier's program as promoting a better answer from British Columbia in the way they are dealing with health care. I would like to bring to his attention the

article in yes ter da y 's Va ncouv er Province en ti tled, Hospitals lose beds. Vancouver's major hospitals

April 18 , 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 31 0 have announced they will close 172 of their combined 2,260 beds as a cost-cutting measure. It quotes the Liberal Health critic as, of course, condemning the government for the lack of funding to the hospitals and so on. I just say that the difficulty all Manitobans will have is that every province in Canada is embarked on a mission to try and ensure that we can preserve medicare for the future generation.

The only way we can do that is if we intelligently review all of the operations of all of our health care institutions to ensure that we are getting the maximum benefit from the significant dollars that we are spending in those, a half billion dollars more since this government took office, I might say, in 1988, a major increase in funding beyond the increases in funding of almost any other area of government, Mr. Speaker.

That kind of initiative is there, is being pursued by every government in Canada, and it is one that is aimed at trying to make health care better for the future generations of Manitobans. * (1 345) Lerner Report Release Request Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that if what the Premier says is true, they should be willing to release the report, not be afraid to release that report, because apparently it will justify their position. I think that to the av erage Manitoban, more bed cuts seem to indicate there are more line-ups in the hallways and difficulty getting to the hospitals. Mr.

Speaker, my question to the Minister of Health is: Why has the government not released the task force report by Dr. Moe Lerner, since the government has hired Dr. Moe Lerner to do something in health reform, or at the department, full time, anyway? Why have they not released the report, since they hired the author of the report to work for them full time? Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): I answered the question when I answered the honourable Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) about the use we will be making of the report and of the services of Dr. Lerner, and have been using.

The honourable member, the other day in relation to health care, raised the issue of We Care home services, and referred to that as the Americanization of health care. I remind the honourable member that We Care home services 10 years ago began its operations in Brandon, Manitoba, and since then, Mr. Speaker, have expanded to 31 franchises throughout this country. The honourable member might be interested in, just to bring this back to emergency services- An Honourable Member: Relevance? Mr. McCrae: Re lev ance -the honourable member might be interested in knowing, in response to the question- Mr.

Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I remind you and would like to raise the question of Beauchesne again in terms of relevance of answers. I mean, quite frankly, on this side, we are not interested in how many franchises We Care or McDonald's or anyone else bas. We want answers to the specific questions asked by the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak). Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised, I believe the honourable Minister of Health had just made reference that he was going to answer the question now. ••• Mr.

McCrae: Yes, Sir, the We Care contract • Seven Oaks also assisted this past weekend in making available eight additional beds in the hospital. If that bad not happened, the 90-minute closure might have been much longer, except for the fact that we were able to discharge eight people from the hospital and put them into appropriate services at home. These are the kinds of things the honourable member opposite wants to be against. I am going to be for the pa tient; he is going to be for something else, Mr. Speaker.

311 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri11 8, 1994 Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, the minister tries to answer the questio n three days later. He finally tried to get his facts there. He did not even answer the question I asked. I will ask him: When will they release the Moe Lerner task force recommendat i ons?

Can he confirm whether or not the 13 recommendations that were recommended in the in ter im report about Concord i a Hospital emergency room have been im plemented, because they in clude things that the government has not done, like expand home care and expand socia l workers to ease the load on emergency wards ? Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker, I think, in conju nctio n with emergency serv ic es, we have to examin e issues like bed avai labili ty, about bed usage and developi ng the most co-ord in ated and efficient emergency system here in thi s city that we can co-ord i nate.

The more emer gency serv i ces personnel who are knowledgeable and aware of what is goi ng on in every comer of this city, the better we are all going to be served in emergency serv i ces. The report to which the honourable member refers is assisting us as we develop poli cy. As I have said to the honourable Leader of the Oppositio n (Mr. Doer ), that report will be made public in due course . Health Care System Consultations Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Mr.

Speaker, my fmal supplementary to the minis ter, who is refusi ng to make public reports paid for at public expense, is: Will the minister start work ing with patients and the public? We have recommend ations by MARN that say that by in stit utin g serv ic es such as hav i ng community health nurses prov i de im muniz atio n we could save the provi nce $800,000. We have the MNU saying that by going to more development, pri mary nurs i ng care demonstrat io ns, instituting long -t erm human resourc es strategy and support in g the role of all nurses, LPNs, RNs and RPNs, we can im prove the system.

When will the government start worki ng with people in the system and listening to people in the system, not their pri vate fri ends? Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, we are already doi ng all of those things the honourable member refers to, and as reported in the media the other day with respect to the serv ic es prov i ded at Seven Oaks Hos pital, the patients like it . The NDP hates it. I guess if we know what the NDP hate we can serve the people better. •

(1350) Personal Care Homes Statrmg Mr. Paul Ed wards (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker , by correspondence dated March 29, 1994, Mrs.

Margaret Redston, the Acti ng Director of the Long Term Care Br anch, advised all chief executive officers of freestan ding, nonpropr i etary personal care homes that the gov ernment, and I qu ote , was goin g to be im pleme nti ng a on e-ti me reduct io n in their 1994-95 rate recommendation represent ing the net anti cipated savin gs to be real ized through the applicatio n of Bill 22 and that the poli cy would apply to all employees with the exception of nurses who agreed to the 2 percent reduction under Bill 22.

This recommendation, which is going to result in a decrease in staffing in personal care homes, goes again st every piece of medi cal informat ion in evi dence which suggests quite the contrary; that staffing needs to be in creased in these personal care homes due to the in cre asing acui ty of the patients. My question for the minister: Given this poli cy which apparently hi s department is in tent on im plementing, on what medic al basi s are they suggesting to personal care homes that they can decrease staffing levels and still do the right thing for the patients? Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, no medi cal basi s. The honourable member is referring to the same issue referred to earli er with respect to communit y health centres.

Apri118, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 312 We have demonstrated in Manitoba that Bill 22, contrary to some of the things some people have to say about it, has saved hundreds and hundreds of jobs for my fellow Manitobans and the honourable member's fellow Manitobans. I am very interested in ensuring that care provided at personal care homes is not adversely impacted by Bill 22. We are hearing from various care home providers as to their proposals for how they might comply. Mr. Edwards: Mr.

Speak er, I would still appreciate hearing from the minister, advised by whom, because I want to table as well the report of last week of Judge Rosen, his inquest findings on the tragic death of Anne Sands back in 1992. I want to quote from that report which sets out three recommendations. Judge Rusen specifically indicated: "In my opinion, the staffing at the time of Mrs. Sands' death, namely, five (5) people for ei ghty -five (8 5) residents was wo efully inadequate." Judge Rosen goes on to talk about the lack of regulations and lack of enfor cement by the provincial government on staffing issues.

This has come, granted, a week or so after the edict was issued to reduce the funding and staffing levels at those personal care homes. Will the minister now withdraw his policy of implementing staff reduction of personal care homes in view of the clear indication from Judge Rosen who studied this issue that the staffing is woefully inadequate in personal care homes in this province, Mr. Speaker? Mr.

McCrae: The honourable member will also note that Judge Rosen's inquest response or report also came after we announced last week that we are setting up a review mechanism to review standards and levels of care at our personal care homes in Manitoba. I am referring to the task force headed up by the Seniors Directorate, Judge Rosen's inquest report, so that that task force can take that into account in its assessment of the situation in Manitoba. We are very mindful, Mr.

Speaker, that in recent years, with shifts from acute care and more emphasis being placed on home care, this is an obvious piece of evidence that home care is keeping people home longer and that in our personal care homes, the acuity levels are rising. We recognize that We are asking the task force to take that into account, too, in making its findings. Mr. Edwards: Why does this government, Mr. Speaker, always review after they have done the cuts? The fact is there are thousands of residents in these homes today who need the protection of this government Mr.

Speaker, I want to conclude by asking the minister to respond specifically to Judge Rosen's comments talking about staffing in the hallways. It is hoped, he says, that the recommendations wiD be implemented so as to contribute to the well being, care and comfort of the residents of personal care homes in the province of Manitoba and that families of these elderly and infirm people shan find peace of mind knowing that their loved ones are being properly cared for. Why is he implementing the cuts before be has done the review, Mr. Speaker? •

(1355) Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker, before the honourable Leader of the Liberal Party gets carried away with this, the report referred to last week by the member for Crescentwood (Ms. Gray), of the Manitoba Centre for Health Policy and Evaluation, Dr. Evelyn Shapiro, contains this short paragraph which I remind honourable members is contained in that report: Overall, the care in Manitoba's nursing homes appears to be very good. The honourable member ought to bear that in mind, and the Centre for Health Policy and Evaluation went on to review vario us comparisons.

The hon ourable mem ber also hear d me announce last week that we are asking the task force composed of Health, Seniors Directorate and Family Services people to consult with various regulatory agencies to ensure that appropriate levels of care are provided to senior citizens and others who are resident in personal care homes in Manitoba.

313 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 18, 1994 Domestic Violence Court Backlog Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Justice. Ba ck in 1990, the then Attorney General said that family violence and dealing with it was a No. 1 priority of the govermnent. By September of '93, the backlog in the Family Violence Court had grown to 10 months which led the then chief judge to say the problems are now so severe that the very existence of the court is threatened. It is my understanding, Mr.

Speaker, that today the backlog in the Family Violence Court is anywhere from nine months to one year from the date of the offence until the hearing. My question to the minister is: In the face of this historical crisis, Manitobans want to know if it is this minister's way of getting tough on crime by reducing severely the number of judges in this province and ordering layof fs in the Crown attorneys' department. Hon.

Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I would like to start by reminding the honourable member that it was this govermnent and this govermnent's commitment to the concerns of family violence that began the Family Violence Court in 1990. We retain that commitment to the Family Violence Court that concerns around zero tolerance in this province are not a wish; they are a fact. Relating to the issue of the number of judges, the honourable member has obviously done his in-depth research into this very serious issue of domest ic violence and the courts operations through reading an

article in the newspaper. So I can tell him that I believe he has some incorrect facts. Provincial Court Vacancies Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): My question to the minister then is: Will she advise this House and advise Manitobans how many vacancies are currently on the Provincial Court, which I understand to be three and that there are six resignations that are now in the worlcs? Would the minister advise the House just how many vacancies, in real terms, will be on the Provincial Court in the next few months? Hon.

Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): At the moment, there are three vacancies because judges, in those positions --one has been promoted to the position of chief provincial court judge, one judge has resigned and another has moved to another court. We have at the moment now in progress the mechanism to fill those vacancies. Mr. Mackintosh: The minister never answered my questi on. My question was, how ma ny vacancies in total will there be on the Provincial Court? How many judges would be available to serve Manitobans to ensure our safety?

Does she think that backlogs in the Provincial Court will bring any meaningful consequences to bear on offenders? Mrs. Vodrey: I can also inform the member that as a result of the judicial compensation package, we do expect some judges to take advantage of a retirement package. However, the member may not know that when judges retire in Manitoba, they also are able to work in a part-time capacity. So the chief judge is now working with the judges who will be indicating their desire to retire and to see the level that they wish to participate in terms of working on a part-time basis.

But the member yesterday at an open forum made a very interesting comment of his concerns and this government's interest in listening to the people of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, yesterday the honourable member ref erred to listening to Manitobans as "pandering." I would like to tell all Manitobans that that will be the way that the NDP will deal with this issue, and not this government. We will pay attention to Manitobans. Point of Order Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, the minister is misconstruing any words that I ever said entirely.

Apri118, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 314 What I said yesterday was that this minister was bringing in policies which would threaten the further safety of Manitobans. That is what I said. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member does not have a point of order. That is clearly a dispute over the facts. *

(1400) Education System Transportation Policy Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Educ ation must be held accountable for the inequities, the chaos and the dismantling of the public education system that is oc curring in the province, including the elimination of school busing which is disrupting families and creating unsafe situations for young people in the province, especially in areas of my constituency of Harbour View South and south Transcona.

I would like to ask the Minister of Education: Does the Mi nister of Educa tion think it is reasonable to eliminate school busing to a new subdivision so that young people have to take a Transit bus across Highway 59 at a cost of $300 per student for three bus stops and still have to walk over a kilometre to their school? Bon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, the latest Education critic for the New Democratic Party should know fully well that I do not make decisions with respect to school busing.

These are matters that are left totally to the discretion of the local school division. Ms. Cerilli: Mr. Speaker, it is this minister who has eliminated funding for Grades 7 to 12 school busings in the River East School Division. I would like to ask the minister to respond to my letter of February 24, which I wrote on behalf of my constituents, and be accountable to explain what his government is willing to do to ensure that this area, which is a very isolated area in a new subdivision, is going to have equal and safe school transit service. Mr. Manness: Mr.

Speaker, was it the River East School Division that the member referenced? If it was, I cannot remember exactly how many dollars of the $750 million that was directed towards aU the school divisions in this pro vinc e went particularly to that school division. The very es sence of local decision making and local autonomy means if a school division has to make determinations around the priorities, if that school division has decided that school busing is oflesser priority than some of the other educational issues. then I say that it is within their power to do so.

Transcona-Springfield School Division Meeting Request Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, this minister is cutting funding and then leaving school boards and families and the Oty to pick up the pieces to ensure that children get to school safely. Will the minister at least send a representative. as he has been asked to do, to a co mmunity mee ting tomo rrow nigh t so he can be held accountable for the change in funding policy to the people in East Kildonan-Transcona? Bon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr.

Spea ker, I will be held accountable for the 2.6 percent reduction in funding to the public school system. I will be held ac count able for that, but I will not be held accountable for decisions that the local school board have entered into and deciding how it is they want to allocate their funding and into what specific services they provide to the students in thei r school div isi on. I am so rry, I am not accountable for that. Legislative Offices Appropriate Use Mr.

Steve Ashton (Thompson): Fi rst it was Preston Manning's suits, now it is the liberal lotto -a party that has been so critical of ga mbling running what has been called Club 600 out of its legislative offices. Just as there is some element of hypocrisy in criticizing lotteries so strongly and operating one, there is also a question of public policy -a pa rty th at appoints an ethics

31 5 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri118, 1994 commissioner and then runs a lottery out of its legislative office. My question is to the government House leader (Mr. Ernst) or to the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Ducharme). Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Second Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, the opposition House leader has forgotten that the purpose of Question Period is to answer questions of the government.

If he wanted to talk about hypocrisy, we could talk about the Leader of the New Democratic Party and staff saying yes to a casino in The Pas and saying, in the city of Winnipeg, no. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member does not have a point of order. It is clearly a dispute over the facts. There was no point of order. On a new point of order? [interjection] Okay, then, on the point of order that was raised by the honourable member for Inkster, I believe the honour able member for Thompson was just premising his comments to either the government House leader (Mr.

Ernst) or the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Ducharme). ••• Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, I would have loved to ask the Liberal ethics critic about this, but our rules require I ask it to a government minister. I would like to ask whether it is legitimate practice to use government offices, legislative offices, for fundraising purposes? Bon. Jim Ernst (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Foundation Act): Mr. Speaker, while that does not directly fall under my jurisdiction, the fact of the matter is I find it inappropriate, in my view at least.

I think the Legislative Assembly Manage ment Commission will also find it inappropriate to be using government offices for the purposes of running a lottery scheme. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, I want to indicate that we will be raising this with the Legislative Assembly Management Commission. As a further question, Mr.

Speaker, has the government House leader been able to determine whether indeed this was being conducted on government time, in terms of public time, because, indeed, my understanding is that government offices and, in this case, legislative offices cannot be used, once again, for the purposes, in this case, of raising funds for a political party? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Speaker, this matter came to my attention, of course, after the fact.

In fact, the scheme had already been conducted, so I have no way of determining whether or how a government office was used, other than the fact that on the brochure that was distributed related to this matter, which I would be pleased to table, appears a government phone number, so I would assume that at some point during this lottery the phone calls were placed to that office. Liberal Fundraiser Lottery Licensing Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): I ha ve a question, Mr. Speaker, and this is to the same minister who is also minister responsible for Lotteries.

I did, indeed, provide notice to the minister of this question some one week ago, and I would like to ask if the minister could indicate whether this lottery was licensed. Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister charged with the administ ration of the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation Act): Mr. Speaker, all lotter y schemes in the province of Manitoba are required to be licensed.

Those that are $3,000 in total prize money or less are not required to be licensed by the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation, but are required to either be licensed by a municipality in which that lottery scheme is conducted or by the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation. If it is a province wide , it is obviou sly difficult to go to 200 municipalities to try and license these activities. So

April 18, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 316 I do know that this was not licensed by the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation. Mr. Speaker, as a result of a newspaper

article appe aring in the Winnipeg Free Press this rooming, we are now trying to ascertain if in fact it was licensed by municipalities in the province of Manitoba. *

(1410) Year of the Family Initiative Budget Ms. No rma McCormi ck (Osbo rne) : Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Family Services. An Honourable Member: About lotteries? Ms. McCormick: No. Much is being made of the government's initiatives in this the Year of the Family. Daily, our caucus receives glossy promotional literature asking us to buy pins, posters, certificates, sweat shirts and memorabilia to demonstrate our support and commitment to this celebration of the family. [intetjection] Yes. Can the minister advise this House as to the budget for this Year of the Family initiative? Hon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, indeed, as our budget comes out within a couple of days, there will be a line that will be there in support of International Year of the Family. I am pleased and proud that we have as a government supported an initiative that promotes and encou rages family participation right throughout the width and the breadth of this province. Mr.

Speaker, I take some excep tion to the comments made that the only information the Liberal Party has received from the IYF office is a list of pins and souvenirs and sweat shirts that they might be able to purchase to support International Year of the Family, because I do know that the vo lunteer council that has been appointed throughout the province has worked extremely hard and there are many, many activities ongoing within each Manitoba community in support of International Year ofthe Family. Ms. McCormick: Mr. Speaker, a supplementaJ:y to the same minister.

We have reason to believe that the budget is in the area of $240,000 a year. We have an obligation as elected representatives to think carefully how we spend the public's money at a time when Manitoba's child poverty rate is the highest in Canada and efforts of the child-serving community are being eroded.

Can the Minister of Family Services tell u� given that her department is cutting back on subsidized daycare spaces and support for child advocacy groups, as well as other meaningful programs and services which support the family. does she believe that this pub lic rel ations campaign is the best use of those dollars? Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member's question seeks an opinion. It is therefore out of order. I would ask the honourable member for Osborne to kindly rephrase your question, please. The honourable membe r's question did seek an opinion, was out of order. Ms. McCormick: Okay.

My question to the minister: Is this the most appropriate use of this money? Mrs. Mitchelson: As I in dica ted in my first answer, there are many, many vol unteer s throughout the width and the breadth of our Manitoba community that are celebra ting and promoting International Year of the Family. I was just at a forum in my constituency on the weekend that was organized by the River East Teachers Association, and it had the International Year of the Family logo on it Their conference. and many of the conferences that are being held throughout the province this year, Mr. Speaker, do have a focus on the family.

I believe that the office that has been put in place by this government has provided support to the thousands and thousands of volunt eers right throughout Manitoba who are promoting family and taking pride in our province.

317 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April l8, 1994 Year of the Family Initiative Statrmg/Salary Information Ms. Norma McCormick (Osborne): My final question is to the Premier. Will the Premier identify the names of the people who have been seconded, employed or contracted to the Year of the Family office and the salaries they are being paid? Ron. Gary Filmon (Premier): Because that is a question of detail which I do not have available to me, Mr. Speaker, I would suggest to the member that she might want to pose that question during the course of the Estimates debate that is coming forward in a matter of weeks.

Workforce 2000 mM Canada Ltd. Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): According to lists provided by the Minister of Education, IBM Canada received $50,000 under Workforce 2000 program to train 87 people in what the government calls human relations. It is my understanding that IBM maintains no education or training department in Manitoba but that generally all training is conducted through Toronto where they do have more than 400 courses and seminars that run year-round.

Could the minister explain why he has added $50,000 to a fully developed cotporate training program and cut commun ity colleges, New Careers and the Transcona School Division? Ron. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Again, the essence of the question is that the NDP is against market-driven training and wants to drive all of the training into the traditional institutions.

Since 199 1, the basic criterion, to help the member for Wolseley with this-training has been, under Workforce 2000, supplied to those companies who introduce new technologies, equipment and processes, and/or high-demand skill shortage, occupations and high-demand skills. That has been the overriding and some would say, general, some might say too general, criteria that have been in place. But that bas allowed the expenditure of several millions of dollars, some of it as an offset against payroll tax but still directed towards the training of 60,000 to 80,000 people over the period of time.

I do not know what point the member is trying to make, as I have indicated to her that we now, given the experience of the success of the program and yet bearing in mind there should probably be some greater focus around some of the criteria, have entered into those changes. That will be brought into place as of May 1994. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Speaker, the point of my first questi on clearl y is the prioritie s of this government. The point of my second question is the issue of accountability.

Will the minister make a commitment to table the curriculum of this human resources course paid for in part by the people of Manitoba? Will he undertake to indicate what certification occurred for those individuals involved? Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, let me again deal with the process. I am led to believe an employer training program is required for each training contract and is maintained on file. We do not provide any grant money until, of course, there is this training plan that is on file and, secondly, the training has already taken place.

With respect to the larger companies, and obviously IBM would be one of them, because there probably is a tremendous commitment to payroll tax by that company in this province, the amount that we are talking about here might be a fraction as an offset against that significantly high 2. 25 percent payroll tax that they pay. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Speaker, do I understand the minister then to say that the government and people of Manitoba have paid $50,000 for this human relations course and be is not prepared to table the curriculum? Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, I doubt very much that I have the curriculum.

What I probably have and obviously have on file is the training plan.

April l8 , 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 313 When the member says, pay a large amount of money, no, exactly the opposite has happened. The company bas paid a significant amount of payroll tax, and what we have done is taken a fraction of that amount, in this case using the member's amount, $50,000, and rebated it as against that tax. Provincial Sales Tax Arrears Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Finance.

Over three years ago, under pressure from the opposition and the public, the former Minister of Finance was forced to act on problems with the sales tax arrears at the time . In fact, the Provincial Auditor did a special report later in that year. My question for the Minister of Finance is this: What is the current amount of sales tax arrears in this province? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I will have to obtain the exact figure to provide the honourable member for Elmwood, but I can assure him that I received a report recently on sale s tax arrears in Manitoba and we are in good shape.

Clancy's Ventures Group Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, my supplementary to the same minister is: Given that two months ago the Qancy's Ventures group of restaurants closed, owing over $350,000 in sales tax to the province, can the minister tell the House when his department realized that the firm was behind in payments and what ef forts they made to collect this outstanding amount? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I will take that question as notice and provide the honourable member with the detail. Mr. Speaker: Tim e for Oral Quest ions bas expired. ...

(1420) Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: I would like to draw the attention of honourable members to the loge to my left where we have with us this afternoon Mrs. June Westbury, the former MLA for Fort Rouge. On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon, madam. NONPOLniTCALSTATEMENTS Volunteer Week Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Niakwa have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. Jack Reimer (Niakwa): Mr. Speaker, I ask the members of the House to join me today in recognizing the be ginning of Volunteer Week here in Manitoba and in Canada.

The contributions that volunteers make to our communities are immense. and it would be difficult to imagine them without the services that volunteers provide. It is the sacrifice and eff orts of these volunteers that make our communities beautiful and friendly places to live. Volunteers in Manitoba come in all shapes and sizes and fill a va riety of roles in their communities. Volunteers provide the es sential fire and ambulance service in rural communities. They give their time and their efforts to community centr es, Boy Scouts, Girl Guides, as well as helping with youth sports and church activities.

Voluntee rs of all kinds are a boon to Manitoba. It should be recognized, Mr. Spea ker, that Manitobans are particularly generous with their time as 37 percent of Manitobans volunteer in some way or another,

whereas the average for Canada is only 27 percent. In the city of Winnipeg over 175,000 people volunteer their time each year which is fourth out of 24 Canadian cities. All these volunteers should be proud of their contributions to Manitoba. In economic term s, the efforts of volunteers in Manitoba has been valued at over $531 million. but it is impossi ble to put a pr ic e on the contributions of volunteers since they are priceless resources to our communities. Many nonprofit agencies across Manitoba will be holding recognition events for their volunteers this week. It is in that spirit that I ask all members of this House to join in recogn izing the efforts of Manitoba's

319 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April l8 , 1994 volunteers and to encourage them for the valued work that they do and continue to do. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Radisson have leave to ma ke a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, I wo uld like to ec ho the member opposite 's comments with regard to Volunteer Week. It is indeed significant to recognize the contributions of the many volunteers across the province who give of their time and their talents to benefit their community .

Volunteerism benefits not only the volunteers in the organizations that they are involved in, but the community as a whole by forging links which ensure that people are actually involved and participating in their community which benefits everyone. I wou ld like to com me nd the ongoing involvement of the provincia l government in suppor ting volunteer training and volunteer co-ordination in the province of Manitoba and that also throughout the many nonprofit and volunteer organizations throughout the province. Thank you very much. Mr.

Speaker: Does the honourable member for Crescentwood have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwood): Mr. Speaker, I, too, join the other two parties in celebrating Volunteer Week and in saying congratulations to the many thousands of volunteers in the province of Manitoba.

Having come from rural Manitoba, where certainly volunteerism was a way of life in many activities, and having had an opportunity to live in northe rn Ma nitoba and now in the city of Winnipeg, I certainly recognize and realize that we, as a province, would not be what we are today if it were not for the many, many thousands of volunteers in every walk of life.

Certainly, when you look at volunteerism here in Manitoba, and we think of what we do in any particular day or any given week, we run across people who provide volunteer activities and, in fact, devote their ver y lives to the aspect of volunteerism, whether it is in the health care field, whether it is in assisting church organizations or cultural organizations. We must say th ank you to all of those volunteers. I know many of us, as well, probably have and do provide volunteerism to some of our community organizations as well, so we certainly celebrate Volunteer Week with the volunteers. We wish them all well.

We say to them, thank you for all of the work that you have done for us in the past, and, as importantly, thank you for all the work that you will do for us in the future. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable Minister of Family Services have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] · Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Mr.

Speaker, I want to join with other members of the House as we look to Volunteer Week and re co gnition of vo lunteers ri ght throughout the province of Manitoba, realizing that people do volunteer on a regular basis right throughout the year in many community events and activities. The last few mo nths, we have just had volunteers around to our doors and our houses canvassing for the Heart and Stroke Foundation and for the Cancer Foundation, just this past week I had someone at my door. This is the month for cancer fundraising. Mr.

Speaker, we have to look to this year as being a very special year for volunteers, in that it is International Year of the Family and there will be volunteers right throughout this province that will be committing and dedicating a lot of their volunteer activities and a lot of their initiatives throughout the province, recognizing families and the importance of families in our province.

I woul d en co urage all memb ers of this Legislature to become very actively involved in International Year of the Family in their own communities and in their constituencies, because I do not believe there is a community throughout Manitoba that will not be celebrating, in some

Aprill8 , 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 320 way, International Year of the Family. I encourage all of you to become actively involved and to volunteer for families in your communities. Thank you. World Curling Championships Canadian Winners Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Portage la Prairie have leave to make a non political statement? Does he have leave? [agreed] Mr. Brian Pallister (Portage Ia Prairie): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to congratulate Canada's representatives on the world curling scene. Yesterday was truly an historic day in the history of our nation.

This is the first time that any nation on this earth has had representatives sweep the men's, women's,juniormen's and junior women's titles in the same year. At the World Curling Championships in Oberstdorf, Germany yesterday, the Canadian women's team from Regina won their second consecutive title . That is the first Canadian wo men's team to accomplish that feat. Skip Sandra Peterson, her team of Joan McCusker, Jan Betker and Marcia Gudereit are to be praised not only for their talents on the ice, Mr. Speaker, but also for their qualities of sportsmanship off the ice.

They were excellent ambassadors for our country, and we know that they must have been talented because they defeated Manitoba's own Connie Laliberte in the finals the last two years in a row. On the men's side, a former confrere of ours, a former MLA in Saskatchewan Rick Folk, who now resides in British Columbia, led his team of Pat Ryan, Bert Gretzinger and Gerry Richard to a world title by beating Sweden. Both Pat and Gerry are originally from Manitoba and have family connections here. I know we are all pleased with their accomplishments.

Also, I am happy to say that earlier this curling season Ontario's Kim Gellard and Colin Davison of Alberta were the winners of the world junior titles respectively. An Honourable Member: You were almost there, Brian. Mr. Pallister: I will keep working on it. Mr. Speaker, I am sure that all members of this Legislature will join with me in applauding our Canadian curlers for this 1994 record-breaking year. With more than one million Canadians taking

part in the sport of curling, it is no surprise that we are the strongest nation in the world when it comes to that sport. *

(1430) Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Interlake have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. ClifEvans (Interlake): Mr. Speaker, I would also like to join with the honourable member for Portage la Prairie and members from the opposite side, and 1 am sure that members from our side as well as the liberal Party agree to the fact that we do have probably one of the finest countries for curling.

We, too, want to extend our wishes and our congratulations to the men's team from Kelowna, Rick Folk and his members, Sandra Peterson on the women's side and her rink and, of course, the two young junior men's and women's teams who participated this year.

I know, and I certainly do agree wit h the honourable member for Portage that Manitoba, not only Manitoba but Canada is a hotbed for curling. a sport that I think, even though we are around the million mark as far as curlers go, is a sport that could be expanded and should be expanded to our junior level more so that we have more opportunity to represent this province and this country in world championships such as this. Mr. Speaker, again, on behalf of our members, we congratulate these four teams. Thank you. ORDERS OF THE DAY THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (Seventh Day of Debate) Mr.

Speaker: On the adjourned debate, the seventh day of debate, on the proposed motion of the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine), for an address to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, in answer to his speech at

321 LEGISLATIVE ASSE:MBL Y OF MANITOBA April 18 , 1994 the opening of the session, and the proposed motion of the honourable Leader of the official opposition in amendment thereto, standing in the name of the honourable member for Transcona, who has 34 minutes remaining. Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to continue my comments from where I left off on Friday. Before I get to that point, I would first like to welcome the new members of the Legislature.

It is a challenging job that they have undertaken by letting their names stand for nomination, of course, being successful in the recent by-elections. I am sure they will hopefully enjoy their time in the Legislature, and they will gain not only many new friends and make many acquaintances but actually learn more about the province, as I believe we all have during our time here when we have had to meet many Manitobans. (Mrs. Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) I woul d like to welcome the member for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson).

It has been a pleasure to travel to the northern parts of Manitoba with him since his election. I have appreciated very much his insight into the issues facing northern Manitobans, and I look forward to working with him in this Legislature. I also, Madam Deputy Speaker, would like to welcome the member for Rossmer e (Mr. Schellenberg). I listened to his speech in the throne speech debate and appreciate very much the facts that he brings to this House and the perspective that he brings to this House with respect to his own constituency of Rossmere.

I know he will do credit to uphold the tradition of the previous elected representatives from Rossmere, of course, one of whom was the Premier of Manitoba and also a prior representative was the Attorney General for the province of Ma nitoba. So there was strong history there of representation from Rossmere. I would also like to welcome, Madam Deputy Speaker, the member for St. Johns (M r.

Mackintosh), of course, who has brought to this House the perspective dealing with the judicial system of our province, and I know he has been working in an advisory capacity with our caucus and advising and consulting with us on various ma tters relating to justice and to commun ity issues. We look forward to further consultations with him on that and, of course, the perspective that he brings. I would also like to welcome the new members for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski) and Osborne (Ms.

McCormick), who I am sure will fulfill their duties to the best of their ability and, of course, they have taken on the very difficult task, I believe, and the challenge that it is in trying to represent the wishes of their constituents. I had the opportunity to work with the member for Osborne on various issues prior to her election to this House relating to environmental matters when they affected my community, and we thank her for the opportunity to have her expertise and guida nce on those matters.

I know the member for The Maples, as well, whose spouse and my spouse also have a relationship that goes back quite a number of years, and it was only upon his election that I found out that our two spouses knew each other from past times.

Madam Deputy Speaker, on February 19 of this year, we had the good fortune not only from the community ofTranscona and the city of Winnipeg, but for the province and the country as a whole, we had the opportunity to witness an event that took place in the Olympics wherein a young woman from the community of Transcona represented our country, Canada, at the Canadian speed skating races in the Olympics. Susan Auch, a 27-year-old woman, represented Canada in those Olympics and set a Canadian record in doing so. She set a Canadian record with the time of 39.61 seconds for the women's 500 metres.

Susan Auch had been working diligently to further her sport and her own abilities within speed skating and had been working at that for some 17 years. I had the honour to represent the community of Transcona, the people ofTranscona, on March 3 of this year at the Manitoba Sports Federation to honour Susan's accomplishments, and we are very

Aprill8 , 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 322 proud of her in the community for what she has been able to accomplish. Susan brought home the silver medal, and she was quite proud in displaying that silver medal. I know, in welcoming Susan back to Winnipeg and to Transcona, that there were signs proudly displayed throughout the community recognizing Susan's accomplishments and congratulating her on being the successful winner of the silver medal. I know I talked with Susan's parents, Mr. and Mrs. Auch, as well, and they were bubbling over with enthusiasm and pride for the accomplish ments of their daughter.

On the one note, though, I was a little bit disappointed that the Manitoba Sports Federation did not see fit to have Susan come and visit some of the schools in the community. It would have been nice if she could have come back to her own home community, talked with the young students there and encou raged them to take on the challenges of life, as Susan has herself. But I am hopeful that Susan will come back and have an opportunity some time in the future to visit the various schools and to talk with the young people.

During my comments on Friday about the throne speech and also some of the issues that have been facing us not only as a province but as a country, I made reference to some of the decisions that have been made by the fe deral government , the Liberal government, and how they are impacting upon the province of Manitoba, whether it be cruise missile testing that they said they would not undertake if they were elected, to the fact that they would not sign the North American Free Trade Agreement without considerable renegot iation of issues affe cting Canadians , in particular the energy portion of that agreement.

Of course, that did not come to pass and the Liberals eventually capitulated on that and did sign the agreement But there were also other issues . I know and I have talked to many people in my community on this particular issue. It is dealing with smoking and how it affects the he alth of our young people and people in general in our various communities.

I was very much disappointed to see tbat the Liberal government chose to listen to the wishes of only one province in Canada and did not listen to the other provinces and went ahead and instead of de aling with the issue of the time, which was smuggling of cigarettes, chose to put pressure on the province to reduce the taxation on cigarettes.

One only needs to talk to young people in our various communities through this province to find out that if the cost of cigarettes goes down, there will be an encouragement because through peer pressure and the reduction of prices for this product, more young people are taking up the habit of smoking. I think that it will lead to a deterioration of the health of these young people, putting pressure on the families, the individuals themselves, and of course on the health care system of our province.

I wish that the Liberal Party had chosen to go a different course of action and to not reduce the taxation level on cigarette taxes. Of course, I think that if they had addressed the problem itself, instead of looking at another issue that was away from the problem, we would have been further ahead on this issue. I hope that my Liberal colleagues in the House here will take this message back to their party in Parliament and have them make some change s. I do not mean just cosmetic changes to the colour of cigarette pa ckages; I mea n real substantive changes to the smoking policies of this country.

Putting more money into an advertising budget that can be eroded with one fe deral budget is not the answer. We need long-tenn solutions to this problem, not short-tenn, knee-jerk: reactions as we saw took place . During the course of time, Madam Deputy Speaker, when we were out of session, I took the opportunity not only to talk with many of my constituents in Transcona but also to travel with some of my colleague s to various parts of the province. I am quite fortunate to have had that opportunity on several occasions over the last three and a half, four years. I have had the opportunity to see the

323 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri1 18 , 1994 lifestyle that northern Manitobans live with and the conditions that they live under. I find it is unfortunate that we have not taken some steps to correct the deficiencies that we find in our northern communities.

Many of the northern communities are living without sewer and water, and I find it difficult to comprehend how we could not have done some thing over a period of time to help correct, at least move in a direction where we were bringing forward similar services to what we have in the southern parts of the province so that our northern Manitobans can live in a similar quality of life. With the infrastructure program that we saw come out we saw very little money go to the northern part of our province.

Even the geese coming back in spring flying over the Golden Boy here know the direction the province is headed in, and that is to the northern part of our province. Even the geese are smart enough to recognize that. •

(1440) Unfortunately, our Minister of Northern Affairs, and Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Praznik), as my colleague the member for Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans) said-[intexjection] I guess maybe that is what it is, that the people of northern Manitoba maybe do not know how to vote, in the minds or the estima tion of the governm ent. That is unfortunate. I thought the ministers, when they got into their va rious portf olios , wer e there to represent all of the people of the province, not just special or selective interests.

I hope, when the second round of grants are announced to the infrastructure program, that there will be monies to recognize the inadequacies of the various northern communities as they attempt to eke out a living and to live without the services that we have come to take for granted in southern Manito ba. We do not need to have mo re overpasses in certain parts of the city when we have commu nities without sewer and water programs. I think we need to take care of the basic human needs first before we look at building more overpasses.

Also, Madam Deputy Speaker, when I was in northern Manitoba, I had a chance to talk with many northern Manitobans who were making their living off the railways by working in railway jobs. While we were up there the federal Liberal government cut over 30 of these jobs. In some of these comm uniti es, like Thicket Portage, Pikwitonei and liford, these are the only full-time jobs that these communities have. When we attended the public meetings that were in these communities, because the people want to have a chance to talk with us as we toured, we found that there were several comments.

The one comment that stuck in my mind the most was -and this was from one of the residents, and I believe it was in Thicket Portage, if my memory serves me correctly-that the Liberals had cut more jobs in the railway in four months than the previous Conservative government had done in nine and a half years. It is obvious the discussions that took place during the federal election campaign, wherein the Liberals said they were going to restore Manitoba as the transportation hub of Canada, certainly appears at this point in time to be nothing but pure rhetoric, and we have seen a further erosion of the railway jobs.

I asked the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Findlay) last week, since there was a shortage of hopper cars for grain trans portation in this province and indeed western Canada, to look at constructing hopper cars in the Transcona CN Shops. The minister said this was a responsibility of the railway and that he was not even going to raise this issue with the railways. This would have created, I am sure, over a year's employment for the thousand-plus people in the Transcona CN Shops, would have met the needs of the grain producers of our province and allowed them to move their grain to export position.

I do not know why the minister would not want to raise that issue with the railways and indeed the federal government, to try and have this work brought to the province of Manitoba and ensure long-term prosperity and employment for the railway people who have been under attack by the

Apri1 18, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 324 federal government for a number of years now, much to my dismay in that the provincial minister has sal idly by and bas not raised these issues and bas not tak:en-[inter jection] The Minister of Transport, to be fair, the Minister of Transport bad not raised these issues. This current Minister of Transport has not raised these issues, and I would hope that he would do that when he meets with CN, because I very much want those railway jobs to come to Manitoba.

Historically, Manitoba's history has been built on railway and trans portation jobs, and I would like to see that continue into the future. I listened also as well and I was shocked to bear the federal Minister of Transportation's comments on March 11 of this year where he said with respect to railways in this country that railways are nostalgia and that they have, in his estimation, no place in the future of our country. At least that is what I intetpret from his comments. I have a copy of the Hansard from Parliament here in my bands and can reference it quite readily.

I know for the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns), if he cares to read it, I would be willing to share this with him. The federal Minister of Transport talks about the merger of the rail lines.

I believe looking at the comments that were made by the federal minister, that if be allows the CP Rail and CN Rail to merge that it is going to have a detrimental impact on the province of Manitoba, not only on the rail operations where we do maintenance and repairs on the road bed itself, but also in the fact that there will be potentially less jobs in the maintenance shop where we repair our rolling stock equipment which again puts pressure on the province of Manitoba either in CP Rail repair shops or in CN Rail repair shops.

Those jobs are essential to this province, and I think we need to take the steps to make sure that they stay here. The one way to do that is to have serious discussions with the federal Minister of Transport to ensure that Manitoba will not be negatively impacted by the merger of the two rail lines.

I also raised this issue with the Minister of Transportation a number of months back-I believe it was in November of '93- with respect to his own community that be represents because if the rail line merges-and I know the study was done in 1987 and that the CN bas been working in earnest to have the rail lines merge-that the rail traffic will be shifted away from the Redditt subdivision and will move towards the CP Rail main line which runs east out of Winnipeg which is double tracked to Thunder Bay.

That will in turn put pressure on the grain elevators and Manitoba Pool operations in Dugald, Manitoba, wherein they will potentially no longer have service to meet the producer needs of that are a. I brou ght this to the Minister of Transportation's attention so that be could take the necessary steps to represent his constituents' interests, at the same time serving the interests of the railway people that rely on these jobs.

This also created problems for the Department of Highways and Transportation in that the CN would not give long-term assurances that that railway line would remain there putting pressure-[inte:rjection] Well. it is true. The two ribbons of steel that cross this country do bind this country together, and they have since its inception. I want that tradition to continue because I think the railways have a critical role to play in the further development of this country, and we need to have the policies in place that demonstrate that.

We cannot just sit idly by and allow the federal government to further erode rail transportation jobs in Manitob a. Whether they serve the community of Portage la Prairie, where I know there are railway lines, or they serve the bayline communities in northern Manitoba or they serve the southern portion of our province, the railway lines bind the country and the province together, and we have to take steps to protect them. An Honourable Member: What did you say, Daryl? This sounds like an old CPR speech to me. An Honourable Member: No, CNR. Mr. Reid: Well, I am not sure, Madam Deputy Speaker.

I worked some 22 years for the railway. My father worlced for the railway. My grandfather wotked for the railway. My uncles wotk for the railway. My brothers work for the railway. We

325 LEGISLATIVE ASSE:MBL Y OF MANITOBA April l8 , 1994 have a history of railway in our family, and we are proud of that. We will do everything within our power to make sure that the interests of the railway workers of this province are represented. We want the railways to be here. [interjection] Madam Deputy Speaker, I am also quite proud that my grandfather was actively involved in the founding of the CCF Party when it first started up in this province. That, too, as a railway worker. The railway workers have a long tradition of working with CCF and New Democrat Parties.

Of course, they know whose interests that the New Democrats represent, and it is the working people of this province. An Honourable Member: You grandfather was shovelling coal, Daryl . Mr. Reid : Actually, my grandfather was a machinist, a skilled tradesperson. I know the Minister of Education, with his-and I will get to him in a minute with respect to Education issues and how they affect my community, but I am sure he recognizes the importance of railway lines for the southern part of the province in that they are essential to moving or transporting the grain that is produced in our province to export position.

An Honourable Member: That is why I rolled back the locomotive fuel tax. Mr. Reid: The minister says that he rol led back the locomotive fuel tax. An Honourable Member: That is right. Mr. Reid: We never said that was a bad move at the time, Madam Deputy Speaker. I attach a caveat to that, in that I asked, at the time the minister was going to do that, that he get some assurances from the railway to protect the railway jobs in this province before he gave away the money. That is what I wanted, some assurances that railway jobs would stay in this province.

He did not get that assurance; in fact, we lost more railway jobs. Railway jobs still went to Edmonton. People are still being laid off in my community. You still gave away the fuel tax and the revenue that we need to run programs, but you got no assurances of jobs. I listened when the government made their announcement last week about CP Rail Customer Ser vice Centre coming to Winnipeg. The government has said, and I think this was the fourth time they made the announcement about these jobs coming to Manitoba, I think they used the figure 21 0 jobs, but they never really tell the public what the true figure is.

They do not tell the public that there were already 72 of those jobs here in the province. They alwa ys like to inflate the figure and bring in a bigger figure to make it look like they are bringing more jobs to Manitoba.

I am glad they were able to bring those jobs here, but we are still seeing-[interjection] Do not use the inflated figure to your own advantage; tell what the real story is to the public so that they know that there were not 210, but there were somewhat less than that-72 less than that. * (14 50) At the same time, I hope that the government will take the steps to stop the further erosion of jobs that we are seeing going to Edmonton now, the announcement that is due to come out very soon, and I hope the Minister of Transportation (Mr.

Fmdlay) is listening to this, that we are going to see, from what I am h earing now, further announcements about loss of rail jobs in this province. There are discussions taking place right now in the Transcona main shops where we are having jobs potentially going to be cut. The numbers will be coming out soon. I am hearing 15 0-some jobs within the car shop facility, and there are several dozen jobs out of the motor parts facility at the Transcona CN Shops. So we are seeing further loss of railway jobs.

The minister often says that he wants constructive ideas on how we can improve transportation in this province. So when I said, bring hopper car work to Manitoba to preserve these jobs, they are going to sit back in the chairs and warm the seat. If you do not want good ideas then do not ask for them. These are amortized over a period of time and the minister knows it. For a $75,000 car it does not

April 18 , 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 326 take long to amortize that. Even the former Minister of Fmance can figure that one out. I am sure, Madam Deputy Speaker, if the Liberal Party was interested in the ideas that we have they would come and listen to some of the meetings that we have with some of our railway workers. But we saw in the federal election where we brought out some ideas, all they did was photocopy it This is the prime photocopier team that the Liberal Party has.

They take everybody else's ideas and run with it If they bad an original idea I am sure it would be something new, and we would welcome seeing something like that.

The federal Minister of Transport also said, and this is something that the Liberal House leader can do something about, when he talked about railways being nostalgia and transportation of the past, even when the Liberal task force was holding hearings in this province, only at four locations, I might add, when there are dozens of other communities that are going to be adversely affected by the loss of VIA Rail services, I made a presentation to those hearings.

I travelled to the northern communities that are going to be affected by the loss of these services, but there was not one Liberal that ma de a presentation to any of those bearings-not one Liberal made a presentation. At the same time that those bearings were being held, the Liberal federal Minister of Transport wa s anno uncing in Parliament that VIA Rail had to cut back services. A report came out that said that Manitoba was going to be adv ersely affected by the loss of passenger rail routes in this province.

Now, this is something that the Liberal House leader can do something about if he wants to play an active role in preserving railway jobs in this province. I call upon him to take those steps to make sure that Manitoba does not lose more railway jobs in VIA Rail. We have over 400 jobs at the Fort Rouge VIA maintenance centre here, right in the heart of Lloyd Axwortby's country, in his own constituency. Those jobs, if the north line services do not move down or continue into Winnipeg to The Pas and then up to Churchill, Winnipeg is going to lose.

Mark my words, Winnipeg will lose, if that decision comes to pass, a good portion of those 400 maintenance jobs in the Fort Rouge yards. That is something you can do something about as Liberal House leader. Take that message to yom colleagues in Ottawa and tell them those jobs are critical to the city of Winnipeg and to the province of Manitoba. Pick up the phone and give Lloyd a call. I would like to spend a few minutes- 1 am not sure bow much time I have left-of my time talking about- Ma dam Deputy Speaker: The hon ourable member has nine minutes remaining. Mr.

Reid: I would like to spend a few minutes talking about issues that are important in my community with respect to education. I listened to the govern ment's announcement with much dismay earlier this year when the government announced there was going to be 2.6 percent reduction in funding to public school education. I know what effect that had on public education in my community, to the Trans cona-Springfield School Division, and what decisions had to be made last year when the governme nt announced they were cutting back 2 percent last year.

Last year we lost 17 teaching jobs, which impacted upon the students in the Tra nscona Springfield Sc hool Division. Transcona Springfield School Division last year had the lowest per-pupil ass essm ent of the city of Winnipeg school divisions. We had the lowest per-pupil expenditures of the city of Winnipeg school divisions.

When my school division trustees came to the Minister of Education after the announcement of 2.6 percent reduction was made this year and asked the Minister of Education for some relief, some way that they could deal with the issues that they were faced with without seriously impacting on the education of our children, the only suggestion that the minister had for them was to give them an advance, a loan on next year's grant money.

327 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 18, 1994 Now, I am not a financial analyst or anyone with a great deal of financial experience, but anybody knows that if you keep borrowing from the future, as this government has often talked about here and has tried to tum that argument back on us from the time when we were in government, it does not make sense to use the same solutions to solve the problems of the school division by borrowing on next year's grant money when he has already told that school division, Transcona-Springfield School Division, to expect less money next year.

Now we are going to see further erosion of public education in Transcona-Springfield as we will in other communities of our province. This year we are losing over 30 jobs, some 25 of them teaching positions. The funding decrease for the Transcona-Springfield School Division-this is a sheet, not my figures, but the trustees have put out-3 .6 percent decrease in provincial funding over '93-94, not 2.6 percent but 3.6 percent. The special requirement 2 percent cap that the government brought in by way of their legislation only allowed the school division to increase about $218 ,000.

Now, $218 ,000 is not going to cover the retention of those 30 jobs that were lost. We are losing two child guidance clinician positions. We all know the difficulties that the teachers and the schools are facing with either special-needs students or children that have emotional problems within the school, whether it be family breakup or other issues that are facing them. We need these people in the schools. We are losing para professional positions, a significant number of them. The funding for this has been reduced by $1 00,000.

On top of that we are losing some of the quality-of-life programs, where we talk about music instruction, library services. These are the services that we have within the school that make the schools what they are, a sense of community in there. I know the minister bas told us over and over again that funding decisions are difficult. All I am asking of th is Minist er of Education (Mr .

Manness) is that he have some sense of fairness when he distributes the education dollars in our province, and when be made the decision to increase the funding to the private schools, the private elite schools of our province, he has esse ntially taken dollars awa y from school divisions like Transcona-Springfield and shifted those into the private elite schools, the people that can afford it. I have many single families in my community that can ill afford to send their children to these elite schools. It was your own announcement, Mr. Minister, that made that decision.

Now it is affecting the number of teachers within my school division, and how is that going to have any long-term positive impact for the children of my community? All I am asking is for you to take some action to bring in a fair funding formula. If you say you do not have more money, distribute it equitably to the school divisions of this province. That is what I am asking you to do. ...

(1500) The trustees of my school division met with you; they met with the former Minister of Education. She promised at that time to take some steps to re vi ew the circumst ances under which the Trans cona-Sp ringfield School Division was operating. Obviously that never came to pass, and I am asking this minister to take the same action. The trustees brought forward options that this minister wants, to make a fair funding formula, and if this minister does not like that proposal that they have brought forward, then come up with his own ideas that will make it fair.

Now, I have listened to the trustees in my division at several meetings that I have attended over the last three and a half years. The one thing that they tell me is that the funding formula that was there prior to this government coming in was essentially fairer than the funding formula that you have there right now. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Reid: You know, Madam Deputy Speaker, the interesting

part is-[inte ijection] Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Reid: What the government members do not know is that the people who were making those decisions were members of their party. It is not people who have the same political persuasion that

Apri118, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 328 I do, Madam Deputy Speaker; it was people who have the same political bent that these people opposite do, the government members. An Honourable Member: What has that got to do with anything? Mr. Reid: Well, you are talking that you do not like the formulas that were there before. It was your own people who were saying that the formula that was there before was a lot better than the one we are seeing right now. An Honourable Member: Our people? Who are our people? Mr. Reid: I will tell you later, off the record, who these people are.

An Honourable Member: Put it on the record. Do not make allegations and leave it off the record. Mr. Reid: No, I am not going to put that on the record. It would be unfair to these people. These people want to see some changes in the funding form ula. Now it may be too late for this government, Madam Deputy Speaker.

They may not have the time to make some changes prior to the election, and I hope that-[interjection] Well, maybe it would be unfair for me to speculate at this time, but I can only go on what has happened in the past and that there has been no action to improve the situation for the funding, even though my trustees have requested it for a number of [interjection] 1900, keep that number in mind.

I ask the minister, in all seriousness, to look at changing the funding formula that he has or at least have some alternate action in place so that the school divisions that are being adversely affected and have essen tially no surplu s-be cause my division, from what I have been told and the figures that I have been given here, show that the Transcona-Springfield School Division has only $450,000 in its surplus account which does not come anywhere close to the surplus that would be required to sustain the programs that were in place prior to the budget cuts.

When the government talked about health care reform, I can tell the government members that I am still getting ca lls from seniors in my community quite worried about the cutbacks to home care services. They see the announce ments about cutbacks to hospital beds, surgical beds and the further erosion of our health care services in this pro vince. It worries the people of my community. Health care services are essential and are the one thing that distinguishes us from ma ny other countries of the world.

If we do not take all the steps within our power to preserve and protect health care, we are going to see ourselves led down the same path and we are going to end up in the same position as our American counterparts to the south, where I believe we have some 35 milli on people without health care services. Those that can afford will have it; those that do not will not have it. Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member's time has expired. Bon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I am very pleased to have the opportunity today to respond to the throne speech.

I would like to begin by welcoming back all members of the Legislature and look forward to a working relationship with those members in this coming session. I would also like to extend a special welcome ttY those new members of the Legislature who have taken their places for the first time. The member for The Maples, Mr. Kowalski, who in addition to being a new member is also the Justice critic for his party. I look forward to working with that member on the many issues and challenge s that I face as Minister of Justice. I welcome input in the House and also as we are doing our work in the community.

I also would like to welcome the member for Rossmere (Mr. Schellenberg), the member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh), who is also Justice critic for his party. I welcome his input also and look forward to working with him on the very serious issues that we have before us in the next few months. I also would like to welcome the member for Osborne (Ms. McCormick). She is an individual that I have known for a good many years and in the

329 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 18, 1994 many kinds of wo rk that she has done. I welcome her to her place in the Legi slat ure for th e first time also. I wo uld like to welcome also the member for Rupertsland (Mr. Ro binson). Madam Deputy Speaker, I also welcome you back to your positio n and also I we lcome th e Speaker back. In the past, you have both carr ied out your respons ibiliti es with wisdom and with honour and with the best in ter ests of this House in mind. I am sure that you will continue to do so in this comi ng sessi on.

I extend my welcome and thanks to the Pages and to the legislative in terns. Your contributi ons here are apprec i ated by all the members of the House. I know you will have th e opport unity to learn a great deal and become very familiar with the is sues, and I hope th at you find it a very enjo yable experi ence. I also must exte nd my sincere thanks to the resi dents of Fo rt Garry consti tuency wh o have given me th eir input and th eir gui dance since I wa s elected in 1990.

It is tr uly an honour to represent the constit uency of Fo rt Garry and the people of Fort G arr y, and I ta ke a gre at deal of pr ide in being their MLA. I wish to express my gr atitude to them on behalf of this government for their advi ce and thei r in put, which they, on a very regular basis, make sure that I rec eiv e as a benefit. Input and advic e fro m th e communit y are essenti al for an effective and responsible government, and I ta ke pr id e in th is gov ernment' s record of public consultation.

Madam Deputy Speaker, one of th e pri mary roles of governmen t is to listen to the people, and Manit obans have told us a great deal as we have been listeni ng. Manit obans have to ld us that taxes dur in g th e Pawley years were cri ppling fami lies and the prov i ncia l econom y, and we have responded by hold in g th e line on prov in cial in come tax, sales tax and corporate in come tax for six consecutive budgets. Given the record of other pr ovi nci al govern men ts and th e federal government, Prem ier Filmon and this governmen t cer ta in ly deserve some recogn it io n for tha t achievement.

Manit obans, after six years of respons i ble pr ovincial government, now have the thir d lowest combined federal and prov i ncial in come tax rate. This is an amazi ng feat given the onerous tax burdens th at Manitobans faced dur ing th e Pawley years. Mani tobans have sai d also that the deficit and the debt have to be brought under control. This governmen t under the leadersh i p of our Pr emier has done ju st tha t. Man y majo r fi nanc i al in stitutio ns have pra ised this governmen t and our responsi ble approach to our financial affairs.

Ou r contain ment of the deficit is even more remarkable given our free ze on majo r taxes. Manit obans have prai sed this governmen t' s record on jo b crea tion. In addi tion to fre ezing all majo r taxe s since ta king office, we have furt her enhanced the tax envir onment th rough in centives such as th e manufacturi ng investment tax cr edit, th e research and development tax cred i t and the mineral explo rati on in centive prog ram. These in centi ves have spurred in vest ments in small business jo bs. In addition, we have pro gr essiv ely ra ised th e payroll exempti on.

Now 90 perce nt of the taxable busine sses are exempt from the payroll ta x. This governmen t has successfully created a posi tive environment for small busin ess gro wth, and our in centives are worlci ng. In 1993 , Madam Deputy Speaker, th ere were 6,000 more jo bs in the private secto r in Manit oba th an in 19 92 . Man it obans have said th at government spendi ng should be allocated to the delivery of th e most essential ser vices. Again, this government has listened to the people of Mariit oba and allocated in creasi ng perc entages of our budget to Health, Edu cation and Family Serv i ces.

Despite the oppositi on' s deliberate attempt to mislead the public, this government, since taki ng office, has in creased fun ding to the socia l safety net. It is wo rt h saying agai n th a t this is bei ng done without rai sing major taxes or running up our deficit. Madam Deputy Speaker, recen tly at Manitoba's first ever summit on youth violence and cri me, Manitobans str essed their di ssati sfaction with the Young Offenders Act and the handli ng of young offenders in general . This governm ent understood and heard th e people of Manit oba, and, agai n, we

Apri118, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 330 took action. I have communicated to the Liberal federal Justice minister that Manitoba desires a tough approach to the Young Offenders Act in orde r to enhance the public sa fety in our community. • (15 10) Madam Deputy Speaker, about eight months ago, I became the Minister of Justice and the Attorney General, as well as the Minister responsible for the Status of Women. The mantle of this office, of the Minister of Justice, has been worn by many distinguished Manitobans over the past 122 years.

As the first woman to hold this office , I feel very honoured to be given the opportunity to contribute to that legacy. Every Attorney General has shared one common and recurring challenge, the challenge to identify and to respond to the safety needs of the people of Manitoba: their safety, their rights, and an access to a justice system that is sensitive to their needs. I truly believe, Madam Deputy Speaker, that I have inherited one of the most effective and innovative justice systems in all of Canada.

I know that my predecessor, who is now the Minister of Health, has earned a tremendous amount of respect in Manitoba and throughout Canada and that his achievements have served Manitoba well. As the Minister of Justice, I have made the growing problem of youth crime and violence a top priority on my agenda. For this reason, I hosted the first-ever summit on youth crime and violence on December 4.

This summit came about because of the public's ever-increasing concern for their public safety and an expressed concern about public confidence in the Young Offenders Act and in what happened to young people who came into conflict with the law. That summit, Madam Deputy Speaker, included 500 Manitobans. It was over 500 Manitobans on the actual day. Those Manitobans came together in small working groups, and they looked at issues of particular concern. They looked, first of all, at prevention and what could be done to prevent young people from coming into conflict with the law.

Then they looked at intervention strategies, and they said for young people who are highly at risk: What kind of intervention could be provided to steer those young people onto the right path and away from coming into conflict with the justice system? Then they looked at consequences, and they said that, when young people do come into conflict with the justice system, it should not just be a brush wit h the law , but they gave very specif ic recommend ations of wha t should occur as consequences when young people came into contact with the justice system and into conflict with the law.

Flowing from that summit, Madam Deputy Speaker, were a series of 700 recommendations that came from the people of Manitoba. We put those recommendations together in a booklet called Community Voices, Community Action. It is a very simple booklet. It is held together by a sta ple , and it is mea nt to be used by the community. It is not bound in glossy print and difficult to take apart, but is instead a working document. It is a document that the people of Manitoba can take apart, can look at specific areas of interest for their community and begin to make changes.

The document itself addresses recommendations that the people of Manitoba put toward, yes the justice system, but also to the community, to the education system and to the family because they recognize that the family is a place to start, that families have responsibility and that it is very important to include the family and the community as we are looking at how we can deal with youth crime and violence. Government came out with a nine-point plan which is based on the 700 recommendations that the people of Manitoba provided to us.

The nine-point plan is an important one because it addresses the whole spectrum of concern with youth crime and violence. It deals at the prevention end. It looks at a program which in fact was conducted April 7 which is a train-the-trainer program to assist front-line community workers and teachers who are dealing with those at-risk youth on a regular basis to help them in their work,;

33 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April l8 , 1994 It also deals with the community. It is very important that the community take

part in dealing with the issues of youth crime and violence. So I appreciate the support that I have received from the members of the NDP caucus and the Liberal caucus because they have accepted the fact that youth justice committees are an important part of involving the community in dealing with youth crime and violence.

I said in the nine-point plan that I would like to even expand the role of youth justice committees so they could do the most effective work and that each youth justice committee would be able to sit down and examine what it is in their community that would be effective, how they would like to become involved. I have met with the chairs of the youth justice committees.

My probation side of Corrections meets with the youth justice committees on a regular basis, and we are looking to make them an extr emely effective mech anism within the community and a way to involve Manitobans across this province in the concerns of youth crime and violence. We also, in the nine-point plan, are setting up a youth council.

We recognize that the voice of young people themselves is absolutely essential if we are going to deal with the issues of youth crime and violence, and so by putting together a youth council chaired by a youth, a young man from Thompson, youth will then be able to have their ideas and their views and their concerns funneled through to government in a very formal way, so that government will be able to attend to and listen to what the concerns of young people are. We will also suppor t that provinci al youth council and the comm un ity yo ut h ju stice committees with a provincial council.

The purpose of that is to bring together a series of experts and people with experience and ability to act as a resource for the youth justice committees and for the youth council. That committee is being chaired by Mr. Gill Tyrrell. He lives in the city of Winnipeg. He has taken a very active role in terms of dealing with youth crime and violence in his community. He has been asked across Canada to speak on the model that he has put in place. So we look forward to those councils becoming very effective in our assistance and in our plan to deal with youth crime and viol ence at the prevention end.

Madam Deput y Spea ker, I have another message. In the nine-point plan I made my position clear, and I also made it clear to Manitobans that I had heard them and that I would take their message to Ottawa. Manitobans said that they were not satisfied with the Young Offenders Act, that they were concerned that young people did not see the Young Offenders Act as an effective piece of legislation. They asked that we take a much stronger. and tougher position to the federal government.

The Liberal federal government made as a commitment during the last election that it would bring forward changes to the Young Offenders Act. We will be holding them to that promise, and we will be watching, as Manitobans, that the Liberal federal government will in fact do what they said they would do. Manitoba's position was made very clear. We had a five-point plan. The five-point plan dealt with, first of all, the age at which people would come into the criminal justice system.

At the moment, people who are under 12 years of age are not part of the criminal justice system but remain the responsibility of the child welfare system. The people of Manitoba said that we needed a mechanism to reach down for people who are under 12, who had committed heinous crimes such as homicide, and be able to bring them up into the justice system. I asked the federal government to consider that.

The people of Manitoba also said that for older young offenders, those young offenders who are sixteen and seventeen years old, where they commit a very heinous crime such as a homicide, that there be a presumption in favour of their trial at the adult court level. We know that yo ung people sixteen and seventeen years old also will use children younger

Apri118, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 332 than twelve to commit crimes.

The people of Manitoba have said that that is unacceptable and that there must be a deterrent and that people who are sixteen and seventeen years old who use those young children because they do not fall into the justice system as it stands under the Young Offenders Act, that there should be a presumption of those young people being tried in adult court. • (15 20) Madam Deputy Speaker, they also asked, and the position I took was for a category of dangerous young offenders so that there could be an increase in sentencing options for those young people who had committed very serious crimes and would in fact be dangerous in our community.

Publication of names was another of the five points that I took to Ottawa. At the moment it is not possible for us to know the names and identity of young offenders who may in fact be a threat to our communities. So I asked the federal minister to consider changes in the publication of names, that names be made available at a minimum to helping agencies, but that where young people were a danger and a constant threat to the community that their names be made available so the people of Manitoba could protect themselves and they would know who they should protect themselves against.

Madam Deputy Speaker, the people of Manitoba also said that parents and the role of family were important and that parents should somehow be brought back into a responsibility on behalf of their young person.

So I took a position to Ottawa that asked the federal minister to consider making parents responsible, along with their young person, through the criminal justice system, not just a financial responsibility, but a responsibility to be with that child, to attend the court with that child, to be responsible during the probation period with that child, and to make sure that parents were taking a responsibility with their child.

Some people have accused us of presenting an old-fashioned idea, bringing parents back in and making parents responsible, but I do not think there is anything wrong with that old-fashioned idea, Madam Deputy Speaker. In fact, I think it is an important one, and the people of Manitoba have said that they believe so, too. But that is a federal act, and we will continue pressing the federal government.

I received a petition about two weeks ago from 4,000 Manitobans, who said that they wanted changes to the Young Offenders Act, and I promised, when that petition was delivered to my office, that I would write to the federal minister and again say to the federal minister, the people of Manitoba have made themselves clear. But because the Young Offenders Act is a federal act. the people of Manitoba then said, what can you do as a government, a provincial government and as a Minister of Justice? So I can look at our corrections system because that is our provincial responsibility.

When young people are sentenced under the Young Offenders Act, they come into the corrections system in which I, as Mini ster of Justice, become responsible. So I have said in corrections that it is very important for young people who receive this sentence to believe that what they are experiencing is important. It provides them with a structure that when they leave corrections, they will not want to return, they will not want to re-offend.

So I am looking across our corrections system for both adults and young people and a rigorous correction, but I have said that for some young people, they need a highly structured environment, and they need an experience which we look to provide them with a future benefit. So we introduced the concepts of wilderness camps and boot camps. The underlying principle of those particular corrections facilities will be that there is a well-known structure .. that the rules will be well known to the young person. Somet imes youn g people have problems because they just do not know what the rules are.

They get mixed messages. In this case, we are saying the rules should be very well known. We are saying that the consequences should also be well known, when young people break a rule, that they know what the effect of breaking that rule will

333 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April l8 , 1994 be and what the consequence to themselves will be, that also they will be characterized by a very high activity level. Young people, particularly adolescent young people, do require a great deal of activity, and a high level of activity will be an important part of the rigorous confmement within the wilderness camps and the boot camps. In addition, we have said an austere environment, a stay within these facilities should be a stay which is not as comfortable as people have at home, or more comfortable in some cases, but should be an austere environment.

The basis of this is to provide str uctur e for young people and to help them experience the structure which some young people have not experienced in their lives. This provides the opportunity. We· recognize also that young people need rehabilitation, and the opportunity to experience structure can be rehabilitative in itself, but also some young people will come into the corrections facilities with a need for assistance with drug and alcohol depe ndency and also require some assistance for insight to their criminal behaviour. These will all be considered. We are also me et ing with Ma nito bans .

Manitobans have expressed a great deal of interest and a great deal of support for these particular initiatives, and so we have taken very seriously that Manitobans have things that they want to tell us. I have met with several aboriginal groups, and my corrections people continue to meet with the aboriginal commun ity so that their special concerns can be considered. Manitobans are making themselves very clear. They wa nt to make sur e that young people recognize that when they are sentenced, it is a conseq uence.

Man ito ba ns have also sa id repe atedly that yout hs must be made more accountable for their actions. A stronger Young Offenders Act is essential to make the wishes of Manitobans a reality. The throne speech also outlined that government will bring forward legislative amendments to deny drivers' licences to young people who have shown that they cannot be responsible. The issue of public safety is one of the most important issues that Manitobans have asked us to consider. Public safety is dealt with by, in this case, looking at responsible drivers. We have a program that deals with drinking and driving.

We are saying now, where actions of young people lead us to believe that they will not be responsible drivers, and we know that there is a very high accident rate for young people, sixteen, seventeen and eighteen, in that group of young people, where we believe that they will not be responsible drivers in the interests of public safety, we will be denying a driver's licence. A driver's licence is very important to young people, and so we look to increase the responsibility of young people and also the public saf ety of Manitobans. I know that the Minister responsible for MPIC (Mr.

Cummings) is also looking at some initiatives where young people owe money to MPIC and where they are required to pay that money back, that we will be seeking to have that debt settled before young people are able to drive. Youth crime is a top priority for this government and a top priority for Manitobans, but we have also enhanced the public safety of Manitobans in other areas. Our zero-tolerance policy has shown that this government has a commitment to the victims of domestic violen ce. We have introduced guidelines which charge offenders in all cases of domestic violence and oppose bail in each case.

Zero tolerance in Manitoba is not a wish, it is a fact, a fact that we will enforce to our utmost ability. This government's achievements in the area of antistalking are also well known across Canada. This go vernm ent, the minister be fore me, pressured the federal government to strengthen the antistalking laws as defined in

Section 264 of the Criminal Code. I take that very seriously and also ha ve a strong concern for victims, so when I recently met with the federal Minister of Justice, I presented additional refinements on the stalking legislation. These refmements include requiring authorities to contact the victim if the stalker is

April l8 , 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 334 released or escapes from jail. That one allows us to attend to the concerns of the victim. We have asked for an enhanced penalty if the stalker violated a protective order while stalking. We have aske d for a bail-reverse onus where evidence demonstrates that the accused poses a threat to the safety of the victim. We have asked that those charged should be required to surrender all firearms and firearms acquisition certificates. This government's action in the area of stalking and domestic violence dem onstrate s our commitment to the victims of violent crime.

In addition, Madam Deputy Spea ker, we have introduced other legislation in the interests of public safety. The drinking and driving laws have been expanded, enforced and made a lot tougher under this government. It has made it possible for Crown attorneys and the courts to deal harshly with drinking drivers. Just as our domestic violence and our zero tolerance policy says no to domestic violence, our anti-drinking-and-driving le gis lation spells out the consequences for disregarding public safety. This government has also made policing of Manitoba's communities a high priority.

I met with the federal Solicitor General to indicate to him Manitoba's interest and willingness to get going and participate in a First Nations policing policy. This policy calls for Canada and Manitoba and each individual Ftrst Nations community to meet and to reach a tripartite agreement on the type of police service desired by each Ftrst Nations community. Officials of this government have, si nce February of this ye ar, met wi th representatives of 27 Frrst Nations communities with respect to this policy.

The First Nations policing policy, Madam Deputy Speaker, is good news for Manitoba. • (1 530) As the Minister of Justice, I have made public safety a No. 1 priority . The public must have confidence in the laws that govern our province. The public has told me, again particularly in the are a of young offenders , that the y do lack confidence in this legislation, and we look to the federal government to assist in this way. In the interests of public safety, as I said, we have come forward with a nine-point plan to make young peo ple responsi ble for their actions. The government is committed to safe communities.

Our measures on youth crime will enhance public safety. Sadly, the opposition parties seem to stress less importance for safe communities. Madam Deputy Speaker, it is also my honour and privilege to represent the women of Manitoba and to ensure that women's issues continue to receive importance in government policy. My colleague the former Minister for the Status of Women should be congratul ated on her accomplishments when she held this ministry. This government is committed to the women of this province.

I would like to highlight some of the initia tives that the Sta tus of Wo men has implemented over the past year: In celebration of the second annual Women's History Month. facilitated the issuing of a provincial proclamation. We developed and distributed information kits to junior and senior high school students throughout the province, and we encouraged and supported commun ity initiatives to celebrate Women's History Month, most particularly Eaton's salute to Manitoba women.

We also facilitated the appearance of Heather Jane Robertson as the keynote speaker for the guida nce counsellors ' annual special area grouping conference on socialization of girls and boys. She made a very good presentation and obviously impressed people in Manitoba so that she has been brought back, I believe, on two other occasions to speak to Manitobans. We worked with Winnipeg School Division No. 1 to co-sponsor a school-based antiviolence program called ASAP, a pilot program to train teachers, and it was developed and presented by the London family court system.

On the day of that workshop, I went to say a few words and also to have an opportunity to speak informally to the participants. It was really very rewarding to hear that the participants believed that they gained new knowledge and that in some of the work that they were doing they felt reinforced by colleagues in

335 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri1 18, 1994 the room. So the opportunity to have communities involved and to be able to take that direct action at the time when an incident occurs is extremely important to Manitobans. Madam Deputy Speaker, also in keeping with our directorate 's mandate to provide province wide information, we have established a central 1-800 women's information line. We produced two exp anded issues of the About Wom en publication, and those who have taken the time to read about women will see that it highlights careers and work of women across this province. It will also show that the women of the province of Manitoba take

part in a whole range of types of work and that young women, in particular, looking ahead to plan, can see the women who have taken on these challenges and will have the opportunity to read about the kind of work that they do. Madam Deputy Speaker, this government is committed to the women of our province. Many changes and accomplishments have been initiated across government also to reflect our commitment to women. I would like to just mention a few because I believe they are important to restate so that women who will read this and women who need information can have it.

Health benefits are extended to disabled persons and sole-support parents moving to employment. That was a very important change which occurred last year and which allowed for, pa rticularly, sole-support parents to move into employment. Funding for women's crisis shelters and resource centres has been increased. Funding for child car e has increased from 1987 to 1993 by $2 1.1 million. Manitoba Health has implemented a breast screening program. This is an important initiative on behalf of women's health.

It is an area in which women can now participate for their own benefit and the benefit of their families and have access to a health program which, we hope, will lengthen their lives. Manitoba also maintains its commitment to the policy of zero tolerance. Family Violence Court as well, Madam Deputy Speaker, was a creation of this government; it did not exist when the party· across the way was in government.

But this government took the issues of domestic violence very seriously, violence that occurs within a partnership, violence that occurs between a child and a parent and violence that occurs towards the elderly, and we acted We created this court, and it is a model for courts across Canada. We have visitors to the province of Manitoba who come to look at how our court was created and what the training is for people within our court so that we can show Canadians what a commitment to the are a of domestic violenc e and to reducing domestic violence looks like.

Mada m Deputy Speaker, we also have the Women's Advocacy Program in the Department of Justice. We also have increased re

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-5-8a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 5th hansardpdf 8a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	3d302d4f117751d3439c2a22e13f6aa550acb2a4

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