VOL.3 PRELIZ..1INARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. FRIDAY, JUNE 2, 1978 NO. 77

June 2, 1978 The House met at 10:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. ~!R. SPEAKER: Tape 3874 EC - 1 Order, please! I am pleased to welcome to the Speaker's gallery on behalf of all han. members a distinguished member of the Legislature of the Province of Ontario, the Attorney General for that Province, the han. Roy Xc~Iurtrey. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! STATEMENTS BY HI!iiSTERS ~IR. SPEAKER: The han. the ~!inister of Transportation and Communications. ~fR, DOODY: Mr.

Speaker, if I may, I would like to make a few comments on the announcement made in Ottawa yesterday regarding the ice tank facility which will be made available to the University and which will be established here in St. John's. I want to express the appreciation of the Province and of the government to the Government of Canada for the co-operation and help in this project. And I would like to give the Hause some of the detail of the background of the project.

The Province becane aware sometime last Fall, Sir, of the National Research Council's proposal to establish a world class model ice testing tank as part of its centre of facilities in Ottawa and we have been making representations to all the appropriate channels in an attempt to have the facility sited here in St. John's. The Province's position was outlined in some detail at the First Ministers' Conference earlier this year during the presentation of the Province's position paper on Ocean Industries which I had the honour of presenting on behalf of the Province. Perhaps some han. members will recall

June 2, 1978 Tape 3874 EC - 2 :m, DOODY: my comment to the effect that it ~ould have made as much sense to put the ice testing facility in Ottawa as it ~ould be to have a branch of the Wheat Board in Corner Brook. And apparently, some of the wisdom of that facetious remark was accepted as sensible and reasonable. And the intention at that time of the NRC was to establish the ice testing facility in Ottawa. In any event, my colleague, the Hinister of Industrial Development and his officials have been actively following up the matter and they have been in consultation with the hon. Judd Buchanan and with the bon.

Don Ja~ieson, and I have had several conversations with him in this regard in addition to the Deputy ~inister of Industrial Development together with Dr. Bruneau of the University who have been vigoureusly pursuing the matter on the official level. Our collective efforts hav~ led eventually to a decision by NRC to establish an ad hoc committee on marine hydro dynamic facilities.

The terms of reference given to the committee were to review the past and current decisions relating to the siteing of the NRC hydro dynamic facilities, taking into account the present and future needs of the users and the Memorial University of Newfoundland proposal, and also, Sir, to recommend for the consideration of the council any changes in location of existing facilities to those proposed or anticipated providing an assessment of both the cost and benefits associated with the recommendations. In March the committee came to St.

John's and met with representatives of the University, of Industrial Development, of ~ORDCO and of C-CORE. In early May the committee presented its report to the President

June 2, 1978 Tape 3874 EC - 3 !lR, DOODY: of NRC and I understand he, in turn, brought the matter before the full council and the minister responsible, the hon. J. Judd Buchanan. On May 9th, the President of NRC, Hr. Schneider, came to St. John's together "With Mr. William Cummings, the Vice-President of Laboratories to advise on NRC's final decision. Mr. Schneider advised us that with the support of their minister, they had placed a submission before the federal Treasury Board wherein they have accepted our proposals to establish St.

John's as a centre of excellence in ice and ice-related research in which NRC would play a significant role. Specifically, NRC had requested the approval of Treasury Bo~rd to allow them to establish a complex in St. John's which would ~ake provision for the following: 1) a world scale model ice testing tank measuring sixteen by eighty metres; 2) an accompanying open water tank measuring sixteen by two hundred metres; 3) all of the necessary back up equipment for data acquisition and processing; 4) relocation of their existing hydro dynamic facilities from Ottawa to St.

John's; 5) completion of the existing uncompleted toe tank at Memorial for use in conjunction with a proposed School of Shipbuilding Engineering which NRC recognizes as being required in Canada.

June .:::,1973 Tape ::o. 3375 .u:-1 :m. DOODY: tir.:e table .anvisaged by ilRC for ::his proposal at that time was as follows; ::he completion of the ice tank for the Spring of 1931, the completion of the open water tank for the Spring of 1982, support facilities and relocation of the existing facilities for the Spring of 1981 and the completion of the existing t.::mk in late 1979.

I trust, Sir, that there has been no change in that time table, I have not beea so informed. ~"RC further indicated that they would be prepared to enter into a contract with NORDCO for the operation of the tank and they would consider it very desirablt! to have a staffing programme which would involve cross appointments with C-Core and NORDCO and }1emorial University engineering deparcment. It is absolutely ess~tial in their minds and we agree that the complex be located on the cal:lpus of Hemorial Universit"J and preferably immediately adjacent to ::he engineering buildi•'lg.

A sufficient umount oi suitable land is available next to the engineering building and the university is happy to make this available. The complex when in full operation is envisaged to employ approximately 100 full-time staff of which may be in the order of fifty under contract to organizations such as NORDCO and the remaining fifty perhaps would be split between tfRC personnel and the other twenty-five c-core or HUH staff. Tite estimated total cost of establishing the complex in St.

Jchn•s is approximately $J5 million which means that NRC will have allocated to it an additional $JO million over and above the $5 million already set aside for the ice ta<..k. Needless to say we are most pleased and delighted and gratified to learn that NRC had adopted this approach because the significance, Sir, of having such a compl~ established in St. John's goes far beyond the construction activity and the immediate employment it will create.

Having a creditable organizatior:. such as :-JRC formally established in the city, here in the Province with a first-class world scale hydro dynamic facility attunent to ice would be incalculable lon2 term benefit in furthering our efforts to establish a viable ocean

June 2,19i3 AH-2 ~'!R, DOODY: industry base in the Province. ~femorial University :uas now completed formulation of its programme for a school of shipbuilding engineering and this proposal which has been supported by the Prvvince has now been formally presented by the president of the university to the Province.

The Minister of Industrial Development and myself in Intergovernmental Affairs intent to submit the shipbuilding engineering programme to the Government of Canada by the ~nisters of I:~ustry Trade and Commerce and the Minister of Science and Technology for financial supp~rt. tle federal government and in particular the former !!inister of Industry Trade and Cccmerse and the present :tinister of F~ance have publicly supported the need for suCh a programme in Canada.

The decision of the Government of Canada is particularly welcome in view, Sir, of the commitment of this Province fer the establis~ent of a Polytechnical institute. }ffi.. NEARY : (Inaudible) morning news - L!R. DOODY: Do not be difficult now, You were very pleasant yesterday, you stood up formally and recognized the assistance and co-operation that you were getting from this side of the House, HR. SPEAKER: Orc!er, please! HR. DOODY: Now do not spoil everything. You have been fairly civilized, you have had a good meal. Relax. HR. NEARY: (inaudible) federal programme. HR.

DOODY: Take it easy now, stay with it for another two or three minutes, Mr. Speaker, in all fairness I must again mention the assistance, co-operation and help of the Han. Don Jamieson. SO~!E HON. HEMBERS; HR. DOODY: Oh, oh! Mr. Jamieson was absolutely magnificant in his co-operation in helping us persuade the Government of Canada to move the facility down here. 1 want to give him due credit. Dr. Bruneau of

June 2,1978 !ape ~;o. 3375 AH-3 :m. DOODY: ~the university, Xr. Sct~eider, Xr. Furst and of course the officials of the Depar:ment of Industrial Development. rne full impact an the future development of the Province of course will be felt in future years as this facility attracts the sort of ocean related industry that we certainly anticipate.

And, Sir, now since I have started to get the hen, member for LaPoile (Mr.Neary) upset and I certainly do not want to Uo that because I know he is very conscious of the time of the House and he does not like to have it wasted I will very gracefully resume my seat and let him dominate the rest of the proceedings, Sir. SOHE EON MEHBERS: _l!R. SPEAKER: MR.W.ROWE: Hear, hear~ Han. Leader of the Opposition. Mr.

Speaker, once more 7 Sir, we see the pleasant spectacle not altogether unpleasant the pleasant spectacle as a matter of fact of the minister, a minister of this government trying to get in on the largesse of Otta~a, trying to take a little bit of credit for it -I do not mind that, Mr. Speaker. The spectacle, Sir, the

June 2, 1978 Tape ~o. J8i6 ~1R. W. ROW"E: the laughable spectacle, that is why it is so pleasant, because it is laughable of the minister getting up and saying that he thanks the hon. Don Jamieson for the little bit of assistance that he might have put into this, the help that he gave the han. minister, Sir- MR. NEARY: MR. W. ROWE: MR. DOOOY: ~R. W. ROWE: $10 million worth. -to get this, laughable, Sir.

Should I not recognize - A multimillion dollar ice tank for Memorial, as a matter of fact when the hon. minister was reading his statement there, Sir, I was reading along with him from The Daily News here, a statement taken from a report in the morning newspaper this morning.

I would say that is about as close as the han. minister, or the government, came to having any impact whatsoever on the obtaininy of this very brilliant piece of equipment and facility for Memorial University and Newfoundland generally, research, Sir, the ice tank, a magnificent piece of research equipment and facility for this Province. $10 million was the figure mentioned. I notice that Mr. Jamieson I believe, when I heard his voice on radio this morning, talked in terms of a couple of million dollars this year, or in the immediate future, maybe leading up to $35 million or $40 million over the next few years.

It is a magnificent coup for Don Jamieson - MR. liEARY: Not a bad bit of co-operation. MR. W. ROWE: And for the Government of Canada, Mr. Speaker. The ludicrousness and the idiocy, Mr. Speaker, of this government erying to horn in on and get a little bit of credit for this particular piece of equipment, this facility, Sir, is made evident when you realize that as a direct result of this government's policies, the provincial policies, Mr. Speaker,

June 2, 1978 Tape No, 3876 ;::-t - 2 MP •• W. ROWE: the tuition for students at Memorial University must go up in the coming year - !1!\. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I must point out to the han. gentleman, number one, that I am not allowed to permit debate under this heading, and I think the han. gentleman is entering into that realm, !1!\. W. ROWE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. That may be so. The language perhaps that I have chosen to make my substantive point and comments may give the indication of debate so I vill choose more moderate langmage to make the same point.

The point being, Sir, that here is a government that by its own policies and by its own decisions, and the position it has taken at Memorial Univeristy, is causing the tuition of students to go up now in the coming academic year. Residence fees must go up, student loans must go up, three divisions of the university must close down, maintenance has gone down over the last couple of years and must go do~ this year, Mr. Speaker. a deficit of perhaps $1.5 million, an illegal deficit but the university cannot help it.

So this is the policy of this particular government with regard to Memorial Univeristy, the only university in this Province, and then, Sir, to have the face and the gall to stand up and try to take credit for a multimillion dollar expenditure, Sir, directly from Ottawa. We have it here only because of the Government in Ottawa, only because we have a magnificent in Ottawa, Mr. Speaker, and no credit whatsoever is due to this government and it little behooves them, in the face of their policies, what they have already done to Memorial University, to try to stand up in this House and take credit for it.

So let me join Your Honour in welcoming the Attorney General from Ontario. I hope he has an edifying experience here in the House this morning. SOME HON. }~ERS: Hear, hear!

Ju:1e 2., 1978 '1R. SPEAKER: !1!\, RICKMAN: Tape ~lo, 3876 NOTICES OF XOTION: The han. Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, I give-notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, a bill. "An Act To Amend The Financial Administration Act 1 197:3." ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: !11\, SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. MR. H. COLLINS: Xr. Speaker, I have some more answers in the continuing long story of the hon. rr:ember for LaPoile (Mr. Ueary). XR. NEARY: How many abortions? MR. H. COLLINS: I think he asked about 100 questions.

All of the questions which have been asked on that side of the House, which as ! said before indicates that he has got a lot of energy and all the others have none, but at any rate, Mr. Speaker, I have the answer to question number 68, question number 31, question number 65, question number 9, question number 15, and question number 66. I will keep the hon, member in suspense and table some more next 'Oleek. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. II. ROWE: ORAL QUESTIONS: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. May ! direct a question, Sir, to the Minister of Forestry.

If he is reported correctly he has said that he 1s not going to change his position on spraying the budworm and I would take from that the designated areas, the areas which we saw on a map here the other day, unless something happens to change his mind, I am wondering, Sir,

June .Z, 1978 Tape 3877 EC - 1 XR, W, ROWE: if he can let the House kno~ now whether in the face of mounting opposition, petitions apparently from Gander to the Premier - a petition has been received, I 'believe, by the government from the Green Bay district and every time you turn on the news you hear about another group, either organized or residents in a particular area, protesting the use of tl1e chemical, :ratacil to spray in the areas which the minister has designated in order to try to control the spruce budworm.

Let me ask the minister this, Has his colleague, the ~inister of Tourism, been able to persuade the ~inister to change his ~ind? You will recall, Mr. Speaker, that when I asked the Premier the other day whether the Minister of Tourism has now fallen into line and is going to cue to the government policy, the Premier said, 'Yes, he has, he has fallen in line,' and then the next day the minister said that he has not changed his position, that he is going to continue to try to impress upon the government and get the government to change its programme regarding the spruce bud~orm. Has the minister been successful?

Is the spruce budworm spray programme going on as originally announced by the ~inister of Forestry? MR. SPEAKER: and Agriculture. HR. MAYNARD: !he han. the Minister of Forestry Mr. Speaker, the decision that was made some time ago on the spruce budworm programme ~as made by Cabinet, and Cabinet at this point in time has not changed its mind regarding the programme or the areas. MR. U. R0t1E: ~R. SPEAKER: Leader of the Opposition. Hr. Speaker. a supplementary. A supplementary, the bon. the

June 2, 1978 Tape 3877 EC - 2 !·1R. !-1. ROWE: Does this mean more specifically that the spray 'planes will be spraying the poisonous chemical, Matacil, directly into Gander Lake, which is the source, of course, not only of recreation for the area, but a source of water supply for the town of Gander and other communities in the area as well, and also, of course, Gander River, that famous river that leads out of Gander Lake? Is that decision still in effect to spray directly into Gander Lake? MR.

SPEAKER: and Agriculture. :1R. ~!.:\ Y~·lARD: The han. the Minister of Forestry There never was any decision to spray directly into Gander Lake, Mr. Speaker, and the maps, if the hon. gentleman would look at them, would show that. There is no budworm in Gander Lake. There is no reason why we should spray anything in there. We are after the budwor~. not the water supply, so there has never been any decision to spray directly into the lake and there will not be. MR. W. ROWE: HR. SPEAKER: questioner. MR. W. ROWE: A supplementary, Sir.

A supplementary, the original Sir, I do not know why the minister would choose to use weasel words to try to get out of it, Sir. If he looks at the map he knows that the spray area almost completely surrounds one end of Gander Lake, and is the minister now saying that none of the spray will go into Gander Lake? He promised the people of Gander to reconsider that aspect of it. Is he now saying that no spray will go into Gander Lake? - that it is possible to spray trees right up to the banks or right up to the shore of Gander Lake in the area mentioned and none of the spray to go into that water supply system?

Is that what he is trying to tell the House, Sir?

June 2, 1978 Tape 3877 EC - 3 ~R. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. :.m. MAYNARD: The han. gentleman's last question was whether we were going to spray over Gander Lake and the answer is 'no 1 • Uhether there will be any drift of the spray into Gander Lake, even considering the low wind factor that is applied, is questionable. But as far as spraying over the lake is concerned, the anst.~er is 'no'. ~R. q, ROWE: One final supplementary on this subject, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: One final supplementary, the bon. the Leader of the Opposition. !1R.

W, ROI<E: May I ask the minister this, Is it absolutely essential, assuming that the spray is necessary - and I understand the dilemma the minister is in and the government is in - but assuming that the sprav programme is necessary, t.~hich is not admitted by any means, Sir, is it absolutely necessary to have the spray programme so close to Gander Lake? I mean, can it not be several oiles back from the shores of that lake?

Secondly, Sir, is it absolutely necessary to have a spray programoe that comes within a quarter of a mile, a half mile or a mile, or a couple of miles, five miles even, of communities? - like Port Blandford, for example, and other communities around the Province ~hich may be adversely affected by the spray prograome. Is that a necessary aspect of the spray programme?

If the minister did a~ay tJith that, if he moved the spray programme back from the lakes - you know, Gander Lake and the residential areas mentioned, would that necessarily mean that the spray programme fails, in the oinister's mind, and tJhy does he not consider for the

June 2, 1978 Tape 3877 EC - 4 ~R. MAYNARD: peace of mind of people concerned, moving the spray programme further away from these communities and from these water supply systems, Sir? HR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. ;.m. HAYNARD: ~·tr. Speaker, the spraying programme is carried out not simply for dumping spray over wilderness area where there is no forest or no bud wore..

The areas that need protection are selected after a great deal of work by the professional foresters and the scientists in the department - selected very carefully, based on the infestation that has gone an before, based on whether there is new generation there, regeneration of trees and whether or not it should be protected for the future of the forest industry.

It so happens that the banks of the South side of Gander Lake have about 220,000 acres of young, mature growth that the budworm is attacking very voraciously and in the estimation of the experts in the department that has to be protected, If you move back three miles from Gander Lake then you ~ill elioinate

June 2. 1978 Tape 3878 PK - 1 Hr. ~lavnard: that area. And if that is the case in many other water bodies in the Province. We have established a buffer zone of two miles from all water intakes, ~to miles from all communities in spraying with the large aircraft. Spraying with the agricultural type aircraft, or crop dusters which are used quite extensively over farmland, we have established a zone of a half mile, the altitude of the aircraft is much lower. The possib1ility of any dirt whatsoever is much more minimal, and that is taking into account all of the factors that we can take into account.

And I stated before that even if there is drift over a water supply, over a community there is no evidence of any harm whatsoever being caused, for psychological reasons we have moved back from communities and the intake of water supplies, the buffer zone is two miles with a large aircraft, a buffer zone of one half mile for the smaller agricultural type of aircraft. MR. II. ROI4E: (Inaudible. With Your Honour 1 s leave, Sir, there is one ouestion that I meant to ask the minister which is quite· important.- MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. W. ROWE: - that slipped my mind at the moment.

Yesterday in the House, last night in the Hause the han. member for Levlisporte read into the records certain figures and statistics regarding egg mass counts - I do not know if the han. minister was here at the time, and showed a decline on the Hest Coast, and decline, and then coming further East a decline in Central Newfoundland, a decline in the West Coast below the critical level apparently, a decline in the Central oart of Newfoundland to not quite below the critical level but somewhere within it, 300, I believe, or something, the critical level being 240, and on the East Coast a decline but still far above the critical level.

Would the han. minister care to confirm these figures to this House. Is this in fact true that there has been a reduction in the egg mass count over the past year across this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. MAYNARD: Well I do not have the report. 1 believe, the member for Lewisporte (Mr. ~lhite) was reading from a report, eithe the federal Forestry or the Provincial

June 2, 1978 Tape 3878 PK - 2 Mr. Maynard: for lewisporte (Mr. l.Jhite) was reading from a report, either the Federal Forestry or the Provincial Forestry - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. MAYNARD : AN HON. MEMBER: HR. HAYNARD: either one or the other. (Inaudible). I do not know which report he was reading from. Would the han. gentleman mind if I answered the question? Or is he AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). ,~R. 1-IAYNARD: in his usual fonn that he does not want to have any information given, in saying the egg mass counts in various areas of the Province have decreased from 1977 to the forecast to 1978.

That is quite true. And on the West Coast of Newfoundland they decreased substantially. So there are only two or three critical areas that we have to - that 1>1e feel that we have to spray this year. But whether the egg mass count decreases in a specific area, and where you have to relate that spraying depends on hov1 many times that area has been attacked by the budworm. And if you have specific areas such as we have that has been attacked, three or four different occasions by the budworm then that area is need of protection.

Now the egg mass count is obviously done in some areas of the Hest Coast, end I mention specifically the Serpentine Valley simply because the trees are dead, there is no living organism at all in the Serpentine Valley at this time, specifically due to budworm attack. I might point out that the egg mass count is up substantially in the forecast. it is up substantially on the Avalon Peninsula. The areas of the attack have moved slowly eastward over the past seven years. MR. NEARY: Are you going to spray on the Avalon? MR. HAYNARO: There is no amount of commercial spraying on the Avalon - AN HON.

MEMBER: Not enough wood there to make a yoke for a goat.

June 2, 1978 Tape rio. 387il ~1R. MAYNARD: - that is necessary to spray for, plus the fact that this is the first year of infestation. MR. NEARY: As long as you satisfy the paper companies. That is the thing. MR. MAYNARD: As long as you satisfy the public of Newfoundland. SOME HON. !~EMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for LaPoile followed by the han. qentleman for Windsor-Buchans. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I have two or three questions for the Minister of Justice, Sir, would like for the han. minister to show his performance in the House today the way as opposed to the Attorney General from Ontario was a man of action, just to show how inactive our m1n ~1inister of Justice is, Sir. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: The han. Minister from Ontario knows,of course, from his experience that one of the most embarrassing positions PK - 3

June 2,1978 Tape 337 9 AH-1 :-ill., .'IE..-\P.Y: the governQent could find itself in is :o be surrounded with scandal and this government here has - C'!R. SPEAKER: Order, please! I must point out that the 'non. gentleman has gone over the area of necessarf

preamble and is getting into the area of debate. ER. NEARY: Well, Sir, I would like for the ~linister of Justice to tell the House if it is possible, if the terms of reference of the iclahoney Royal Coro.mission are sufficiently broad enough to be able to examine into the Scrivener scandal in connection with the Health Sciecces Comple.x and the Carbonear hospital? :-ill, SPEAKER: ~m. A.HICK1:1AN: Han. :·linister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, the question from the hon. gentleman for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) prepossess a scandal and the han. gentleman eats, sleeps and braathes scandals.

He cannot 30 to bed at night unless he has a scandal first, t:tere has got:. to be a scandal in order to - he cannot stay alive, he is nurtured on scandals. I ao very modestly trying co respond.to t~e vicious attack that was hurled at me frac opposite, Mr. Speaker. I can only repeat what my colleague the han. Xinister of Public Works and Services advised the committee of the House when his estimates were before the House that the secretary of the Mahoney Commission or the Cotmlission of enquiry appointed by the Governaent of !lewfoundland and Labrador and headed by !:ir.

Justice John Hahoney haJ. informed my department that :.!r. Justice Mahoney had interpreted the mandate and the terms of refe:ence of the co~~ission to be sufficiently broad to allow the commission to enquire into certain aspects of the Health Sc!ences Complex. Specifically the commission will be looking into any change orders that cay have been issued with respect to the Health Sciences Complex since April 1974 for the purpose of dete~ining whether ~r not there Yas compliance with the Public Tenders Act.

Following receipt of that information I also made enquiries as to whether or nat the terms of reference which were very, very broad as l:on. gentle!:lan will recall were sufficiently

Jw1e 2,1978 3879 broaci to r.:ake certain that the Public Ter.dering Act was also complied with in respect of the construction of the Carbonear hospital and the answer I received was in the affirmacive. ~m. NEARY: So, ~1r. Speaker, HR. SPEAKER: A supplementary the bon. memb~r forLaPoile, HR. :i"EARY: - I can assume chen , S!r, that Judge Mahoney or Justice ~ahoney will be looking into the Health Sciences Complex and the Carbonear hospital. Now, Mr.

Speaker, my second question to the minister and obviously, Sir, from his introductory remar!~ the ~inister is becomming paranoid or shell shocke~ over all these scandals that are rocking the administration at its very foundation. What about the Dobbin building? building? Now what are we going to do about office space in the Dobbin Will that be looked into by the Royal Commission looking into public ~arks? Can that fit within their teros of refe=cnce too? HR. SPEAKER: Hen. Hinister of Justice. HR. HICIG1AN: }fr, Speaker, I am very conscious of the constraint chat the - Pardon! HR.

DOODY: They are going t:o have their meetings in the Dobbin building - :m. HICIQiAN: That is right. I am very conscious of the constraint that is imposed under the rules of the House in referring to a matter that has been dealt vith during this present session. HR.W.ROWE: :-m, NEARY: XR. UICIQ-L-4~: It has not been dealt with that is the trouble. No it ilas not. Any matter that is debated and voted an is dealt with during this present session and Your Honour is fully aware of that fact.

I regrettably was away from the House an the evening and afternoon of the historic debate which proved beyond all reasonable doubt that not only does the government have nothing to hide with respect to any alledged Dobbin proposal but more than that that t:he government in an unprecedented move for governments of Newfoundland made is all public. HR. W.ROWE: :m. HIC~!A."'l: Oh yes! And, Mr. Speaker, I am quite certain that the ~mhoney

Jur.e 2,19i8 Tape :;o. JSi9 Commission cannot enquire into hypoth~tical cases and certainly whatever proposals anyone may have made w~th respect to meeting the necessary demands for ndditional space to take care of the requirements of the Public Service of this frovince would not come within that terms of reference and as to whether when we will be calling as a government for proposals that will be a matter that does not fall within my jurisdiction as Hinister of Justice nor as :·iinister of Finance.

June 2, 197S JF - 1 ~-IR. i!ICiC'.t-..~:: certainly the cor.:mission headed by ~r. Justice ~~al-.oney ·.-till not embark upOn hypothetical witch hunts. \rq_, S • :'TE.ARY: A supplementary question, '-'r. Speaker. !ITt. SP;:-AF.E:l: A suppler.entary.

The han. member for LaPoile. ~":r, Speaker, ! would like to be able to ask the .\.ttorney-General from On~ario a question but that is ir::proper as you know. \1e are ru~ning out of judges here to do inquiries I thoug:1 tr'.aybe we could borrow a fetv from Ontario ~ecause we have got about a dozen or so police investigations and !nquiries going on at the present time. ::ou, ! would like to as:: t::he r:inister I want to refresh the r:inister's meter:" to sorr.eth!ng that h<1ppenerl two or th'l!ee years ago in connection t-tith construction of the Regional College at Corner Brook, It uas stated at the time that tr.oney was coming into the Province from peculiar sources and there was sor.e strange goings on in connection with the construction of the !?.egional College at ramer Brook that organized crime for instance was involved in it.

Mafia coney was involved in the-and the government entered into an agreement with people who were using mafia money to construct the Regional College at Corner Brook. &~d I believe, I am not sure perhaps the minister can confirm or deny this that there has teen sooe at least the preliminary investigation in this Province to see· how active organized crime is in this Province.

Could the minister tell us if the Regional College - if the activities the agree~~nt the contract, the arrangement that was made for the Regional College can also be put under the Hahoney Royal Commisssion to have it zcrutinized to see if there ~ms indeed ;nnfia money used either directly or indirectlY ~y the government to construct a Pe:;rional College at Corner Brook1

J:.tne _, 1078 '-:R. SPE:.:\JU:::R: :''R. HICKY ... A.!1: me of C~dfather

Part ll "'R. ::OL'0!: The !'!on. Yinister of Justice. '!:-. Speal'et", that q:uest.ion rer..inds Yes, ('olumbo. I have not he.?t"d of any scandal with respect to the construction of that fine institution in Corner 3rook..

A)i HO~l. '';2!3ER: And, I repeat what I said iJhen I sta::teG t!'-.e first question the hoc. gentlerran for LaPoile ('~!r. ·:cary) subscribes to the view that scandal a day will keep us away froo discussing the issuen, the only issues~that concern the people of !:ewfoundland today - Dh, yes. ~8.. 11ICI1i.AN: - and that is to try and ~et t~e economy of CanaOn and this Province back on an evc!l lteel. ~~. S. NU\RY: that? '\'R, H!Ct~!.:\1!: But where are your plans to do Rut, ~·r. Speaker, t:e never get a chance because we have a scandal a da~·. ~!"R. S. ~l£ARY: Hell we will s tot' bring in so~e plans.

Ever: day, you !:not;, every ray. And I say, ··r. Speal:er, t:;ere is no evidence to t::y knot,;le'!e I ;u:. not a·;are of any irwct:~t:ign.tlon i!ltO orrani.zed crir;;e in this Province anyth'<e I have inquired of people wl-o should know !. hav8. bee.n very happy to learn fron them t.!Jat one of t~:!.nr;s we escaped beins a Prvvince of oul:r 5rJ(l ,:·rJ'l souls a large percentage of t.;hoo live art the Island part of the Province that lie !tave escaped orgnnized crime. ~!l~. S. YEA?Y: Are you absolutely sure? t.;hat about "'r. ''R. SPEAKER: Order, please! Or~er. ~lease! 2

I would hone that He tdll continue to do that and I :Cave suff:!.cent confidence in the two fine police forceS we have in this Province to say publicly in case there is someone ·.:ho may vant to rr.ove .:.nto this Province and start organize crir~ that they shall be caugnt and dealt with firmly !Jut equitably b;.~ th·: accords of this Province. AN HOU. ~!EXTIER : They are th~ only ones. MR. S. :.1EAJ\Y: What are they ~oing to do, go out and bring i:1 a nc,,. 1"1inister of Justice? And~ !!r.

Speaker, that is uhy today I am very proud to say that in the last t~ree or four years '"e have tripled in some instances the cour~ facilities and judges ia our Province and quadrupled the munber of r:rosccuors J.nd we move with quick dispatch in the field of A f~ir and equitable administration of justice. ;m. :TEA:?Y: All on a commission of inquiries now. MR. HICK!

IAN: But let me repeat I have never heard except when the han, gentleman for LaPoile gets up and says from time to time any talk of scandals but please I emplore him do not disappoint us by allowing one day to go !:Jy cdthaut a new scandal. !:o, (lo not worr:;. t:nless we get a nev ~Unister of Justice ''"'e will probably !1ave t•,:o or three ever; day. A:J RON. 1:-tt::ffiER: HR. SPEAKEP.: Do not worry, Sir. A supplementary. Order, please~ I recognize the han. Leader of the Opposition for a supplementary.

Before the supplementary I would like to welcoU'e on behalf of han. meD".bers to t:te galleries twenty-five grade eight students from Assumption Junior High School in Avondale accornpp.nied by two teachers Sister Elizabeth Lee and ~ 1 iss Sheila Gearin I !,:nov han. members join ne in •..;elcoming these students to the House of Assembly.

June 2, 1978 SO:!E ao:r. ~r::-~L1FRS: ~!E. SPE.\.!CEP.: ;!F.. w.~r. t'\OHE: Tape 3S8D P.ear, hear~ The hen. Leader of t~e Opposition. I ~ave a supplementary on the serious subject, Sir, raised by the merrOer for La?oile, the Opposition Pause Leader were treated with levity by the Yinister of Justice. Sir, I t:ay be wrong on this, Sir, but perhaps the minister could clarify the situation. H~~ is it possible regarding alleged wrongdoinr, that ::;>1ok place involvin~ Scrivener, and the Car!Jonear :1ospital nnd the R'!nlth Sciences C:e!'.t::'o.: alleged '"rongdoinr:

June 2, 1978 Tape 3881 EC - 1 HP .• W. ROWE: that allegedly took place in 1972 and 1973, how can that come within, in any way, the terms of references of ~r. Justice ~ahoney's Royal Commission of Inquiry, since as I understand it -I do not have it in front of me here, the terms of reference - as I understand it, that commission is supposed to inquire into wrongdoing that might have taken place with regard to the Department of ?ublic Works since April of 1974? AN HON. MEX3ER: That is right. HR. W.

ROHE: So we have a two year period there, Sir, which is the germane period regarding Scrivener an~ the Carbonear Hospital where the alleged wrongdoing took place involving the P.C. Party and involving the Government of the Province, Sir. So how can Mr. Justice Mahoney inquire into that? Is there some way he can inquire into the alleged wrongdoing in a period two years earlier than his terms of reference set out - those terms of reference apparently, as I understand it, being from April, 1974 to the present time? HR. SPEAKER: HR. HICK:-lAN: The han. the Minister of Justice. Let us get the record straight.

If a Mahoney Commission was not set up because of alleged wrongdoing on the part of government, and if it was set up because there had been suggestions made in this House that all which are unproven and unsubstantiated that the Public Tenders Act - SOME HON. MEMBERS: HR. SPEAKER: !-!R. HICKHAN: Oh, oh! Order, ple2se! - may not have been strictly complied with. That is the allegation. And we very quickly and readily agreed, as a government, to appoint the Commission under }!r. Justice ~ahoney. And if han. gentlemen will recall,

June 2, 1978 Tape 3881 EC - 2 in preparing the terms of reference for the commission, government was so anxious and desirous that the terms of reference would be sufficiently broad to allow free rein insofar as the Commissioner is concerned that I carried out an unprecedented act, r suspect - I consulted with the financial critic opposite and got his approval of the terms of reference. And if the han. gentleman will look at the last paragraph in those terms of reference - HR. NEARY: the minister took them back yesterday. :·!R.

HICK~!AN: Yes, I was getting~ copy off and it will be delivered to the han. gentleman's office, but in any event, it was in the Newfoundland Gazette. It was public knowledge. The last paragraph provides, in all matters or things incidental which in the opinion of the Commissioner may be incidental thereto - I am paraphrasing it. The Commissioner has assured that ~e has the authority to inquire into all these matters.

And it would be ludicrous, it would be inconceivable to believe that if the Commissioner - and I certainly do not ~ant this to be interpreted in any way of even suggesting to the Commissioner as to how he should proceed with his inquiry - but if the Commissioner in his inquiry comes upon a change order that he feels should be looked at -it was made on April 2, 1974 - and he feels that he should go back and look at one on April, 1972 for comparative purposes that he should not do it and would not do it.

You know, that would be such a restrictive term of reference that I do not think that any Commissioner could function under it. And I am satisfied, Mr. Speaker, that the Commissioner in this case, who is a very fine Justice of the Trial Division of the Supreme Court

June 2, 1978 Tape 3881 EC - 3 HR. HICKMAN: of Newfoundland. will look into all matters which in his opinion are at all relevant and at all involved - the Health Sciences Complex or the Carbonear Hospital or any other matter or thing that needs examination and recommendations to government thereon. HR. SPEAKER: for Stephenville. I recognize the han. the oember Before he proposes his question ! would like to welcome another group of young people to the House of Assembly, thirty-four Grade VIII students from St. Patrick's Uigh School in Vancouver, accompanied by three of their teachers, Mrs. Brown and ~r. and Mrs.

Cameron. I know that members join me in welcoming these students from British Columbia. SOME liON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. XcN'EIL: Hear, hear! The bon. the member for Stephenville. Mr .. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Transportation and Communications in his capacity as Chairman of the Board of Labrador Linerboard.

Since negotiation for the mill of Labrador Linerboard is progressing quite well according to my usually reliable sources, and since the availability of housing will be a serious consideration for any company that may ~ant to take over the mill, could the minister tell the House if the Divestiture Committee has requested a block of housing units from Newfoundland and Labrador Housing on the Harmon Complex for the new management personnel if and when the mill is sold'?

June 2, 1978 t~R. SPEAKER: Affairs. MR. DOODY: Tape 3882 PK - The han. the Minister of fntergovernmental Not to my knowledge, Mr. Speaker. I am delighted to hear from the han. member that the negotiations are going so well. I am pleased indeed to know that we are making such progress~ and in of that infonnation I will certainly make enquiries, and I have no doubt at all that should we be successful in finding an operator for the mill that the Harmon Corporation and the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation will be most happy to accommodate any management peop 1 e ~·1ho might move in there.

The housing fac i1 i ties wi 11 certainly not in any way be a handicap or a hinderance in any negotiations that we will be having with the potential operator or purchaser of that mill. MR. HODDER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han. the member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: The subject of Labrador Linerboard Limited, Mr. Speaker, to the same minister. Shortly before the closure of the mill or within, say, a six month period before the closure of the mill there was a contract signed, a shipping contract signed, I remember when the former Chairman of Labrador Linerboard, Mr.

Crosbie and Mr. Ingram went to Norway and signed a contract for shipping, then shortly afterwards the mill was closed. My question is, is this contract, I understood from the minister last year that there might be a legal wrangle about that contract. Is that contract at the present time in the courts? Or did the closure of the mill negate that contract? MR. SPEAKER: MR. DOODY: The han. the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. No that was the contract with Jebsen 1 S Shipping. We have reached a settlement with the company to terminate the contract.

The amount of money involved is something I do not have in front of me. I do nat remember what the detail is. I will certainly undertake to get the information, perhaps it should rea11y be on the Order Paper. But in any event the - MR. NEARY: (Inaudible).

June 2, 1978 Tape 3882 PK - 2 I~R. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. DOODY: for the gentleman. In any event I will undertake to get the information I do not know what the amount was offhand, and I do not want to give the House the incorrect information. But there is no contract at the present time. And it is not in court, nor has it gone to court. MR. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER: MR. HODDER: A supplementary, Sir. A supplementary, the han. the member for Port au Port. I would ask the minister if he perhaps could provide the House I'Ii th that i nforma ti on.

I would also like to ask the question about other contracts, and I wi11 try to put the two of them together. The contract with the paper workers at the mill, the wage and employment contract - is that contract expired? And what about the contract with the loggers union? Has that one expired? MR. SPEAKER: MR. DOODY: The han. the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. Both contracts are still in operation and are still operative with the people who are working at the mi11. The termination date, I think, it is sometime this Summer, I am not sure, I can check that out as well.

To the best of my knowledge both contracts are still in operation, and they are still operative. MR. HODDER: A supplementary. ORDERS OF THE DAY 14R. HICKMAN: '4otion 10. f4otion, the han. the Minister of ~·1unicipal Affairs and Housing to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend ihe City Of St. John's Act," carried (Bill No. 47). On motion, Bill No. 47 read a first time ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. HICKM_A.ll.:. Motion, the han. the Minister of Health to introduce a bill, 11

An Act To Provide For The Provision Of Lower Cost Prescription Drugs, u carried (Bill No. 51).

June 2, 1978 laoe 3882 PK - 3 On motion, Bill No. 51 read 2 first time ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. HICKMAN: Motion 13. Motion, the han. the Minister of Finance to introduce a bill, ' 1

An Act Respecting An Increase In Certain Pensions,u carried [Bill No. 57). On motion, Bill No. 57 read a first time ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. HICKMAN: ~lotion 14. Motion, the han. the Minister of Health to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Registration (Vital Statistics) Act,n carried, [Bill No. 58).

June Z, 1978 Tape No. 3883 ~J:-! - l On motion. Rill No. 58 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. HICKMAN: !1R. SPEAKER: The budget debate. Order 3, the adjourned debate on the budget, the han. member for Mount Pearl. MR. N. WINDSOR: Thank you, Xr. Speaker, I vill try to take up from where I left off last evening when I was so rudely interrupted by father time, I had mentioned a number of things, of course regulations in our provincial parks I think, television in the House, media coverage of the House, several items of that nature.

And I started then, Sir, to get into items of concern directly to my district of Xount Pearl, and I talked about some of our financial problems with our general budget, our operating budget. I talked about the need for an expanded industrial base and I started to talk a little bit about some of the capital needs of the town of Mount Pearl itself. If my voice holds out I will carry on with it. MR. SIMMONS: - Donovans Industrial Park? MR. N. WINDSOR: No, not yet. ~e are working on it. I do not know if the hon. gentleman was here last evening - MR. CALLA.~: MR. N.

WINDSOR: It is in the electoral district of Mount Pearl. No, part of it is within the electoral district, yes. That was one of the items that I mentioned last night, that this is perhaps one of the keys to the financial stability of t!le tovn of Mount Pearl, t:o get back the industrial base that was taken away from t:hem. Now t:o talk about some of the, capital vorks projects that the town has proposed for this year, I started to mention them and time ran out, Park Avenue, which is absolutely critical, Sir. It is imperative that further construction be done

June 2, 1978 • Tape No. 3883 HR. N. WINDSOR: ~n Park Avfnue this year, There are a number of other older streets, I was talkiPg I think about the fact that in 1965 all the roads in Mount Pearl Yere paved and Ye were of course most grateful for that but unfortunately the standard of construction Yas very low and as a result of tYO things perhaps, as a result of the standard of construction and as a result of the fact that the town has not been in a position to carrf on a regular Qaintenance programme. You can only expect perhaps a ten to fifteen year life of any paved street in any municipality.

The town of Mount Pearl has something like fifteen miles of roads within the town boundary so that means that unless you resurface a mile and a half of pavement each and every year then you are slowly going to fall behind. And of course having all the roads paved at one time there was no need for the first number of number of years to do any resurfacing. The town has not been in a position for the last five years to do very much. There was some done two years ago, very little last years, just basically patching, but tYo years ago there was a fair bit done.

That is really all that has been done in the way of resurfacing. So we now find ourself in a position where most of the older streets in town, the older section, the old park area, what was once known as ~unt Pearl Park, these roads are very low standard, very few have curb and gutter or storm drainage, just open ditches. This is a situation, Sir, that cannot be allowed to continue. It is imperative that the town begin again this year to at least make a start on upgrading some of these roads to proper urban standards. I could list a number of streets of which this is required but I will not.

There are a number of areas, even in the newer sections of Mount Pearl Yhere standards are not up to par, particularly in some of the school areas and some of the playground areas where it is imperative to install sidewalks and so forth. And I should perhaps mention a problem on Third Street Yith sanitary seYerage, that problem has been with the town for

June 2, 1978 Tape No. 3883 MR. N. WINDSOR: a number of years. The town has made some efforts to correct it, has not been successful and I think it is evident now that a fairly major upgrading of that se~er is necessary. So, Sir, what it boils down to is that the town of Mount Pearl is going to need a fair amount of money this year to do some capital ~arks, It is absolutely imperative.

Park Avenue as I mentioned is without question, it has to be done, ~e cannot live without it, It is a disgrace in its present condition and indeed some of these older streets, Sir, if ~e do not make a beginning on them no~ then it ?fll be just that much ~orse next year. Common~ealth Avenue is one that is a little more comrlicated because it is a provincial highway. Some upgrading is needed on that and the han. Minister of Transportation and Communications has agreed to visit the district with me, perhaps this afternoon or if not early next ~eek. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. N.

WINDSOR: This afternoon is fine. :,IR. A.J. ~RPHY: Whenever the plane is available. ~!R. N. WI!lDSOR: Whenever the helicopter is

June 2,1973 T<.lpe ,ur-1 ::m..~ ;JUIDSOR: available to get us over Park Avenue. But this is one of the things that I will be showin; him.

I would like to thank the fon::.er oinister 1 :'lr, Speaker, for a visit he r:~ade with ce last year,it was quite urgent and I asked him to ecce in with ce to look at a particular problem on Commonwealth Avenue. which was one of traffic control at the intersection of Smallwood Drive and Commonwealth Avenue where we had a t:emendous number of accidents !he minister came in and looked at it with me and having studied a report that ~as presented by the Chief of the Nount Police he agreed that traffic control was ll:lperative and very quickly or~cred traffic lights and I am happy to say that they were put in service about a week and a half of two weeks ago, :\.;'/ HOU. ~ !E·iBER: aR. ~i. ~HNDSOR: That was previous - The previous r.~inister with the co-operation,of course,of the present minister.

So that was a major improvement, Sir, on Commonwealth Avenue but we certainly do need a lot more. I could get into a great hassle with the cinister or h~s officiels at least about snow clearing on Commonwealth Avenue hut we have had a number of discussions and some recent correspondence.

I am running out of tice so I uill not get into that particular issue but I feel confident that by the next snowfall which I hope will be n~'tt year 1 it maybe sometil:te next week but hopefully it will not be until next Winter before we have a cajor snowfall and by that time I am confident that we will lmve worked out some solution to that problem. I would like to get into a number of things now, Sir, in relation to the other half of my district.

WOen I started last evening I mentioned that I had to talk about the municipal area, the town of Mount Pearl itself and I have to talk about the area outside the town boundary. I only have about five minutes left. so I will talk first about Topsail Road area which has a number of problems. One of them again as I mentioned last night, the widening of Topsail Road. ~ffi..SPE.AKER: A point of order has been made. HR. CALLA"i: Mr. Speaker, I think we should have a quorum

Jtr:n: 2,197.s Tape :;a. 3034 AH-2 HR. CALLAN: in the House especially when the hon. gentleman from the government Side is speaking. A call for a quorum. SOHE HON. HENBE.RS: Hear, hear! NR.N.WUIDSOR: You just blew three minutes of my fiue.

June 2. 1978 Tape 3885 EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER: I ~ill ask the Cl~rk to count the House. Do we have a quorum? Haunt Pearl. HR. N. tHNDSOR: The han. the member for (Inaudible) Hr. Speaker. It is impossible in tva minutes to describe all the needs of -or say one third, at least, of my district, so I will simply say in talking about Topsail aoad area that there are a number of problems there. I will get back to the specifics perhaps, in the Throne Speech debate or some other debate. !here are a number of problems there in relation to roads and sewerage problems - pollution problems there.

Perhaps the most imminent problem, of course, is the fact that there is not an adopted plan there to control development. It is imperative that we do get one. If we do not then we are going to continue to see development taking place without proper control. And I am not in any way criticizing the St. John's !Ietropolitan Area Board who are responsible for that area, but with a good adopted municipal plan then development will not take place in an orderly manner. Now I only have, 1 think, one minute left - is that right?

So, as I say, I will get back in some other debate to further discussion on Topsail Road and on the New Town area and on the Brookfield Road area. I would just like to mention one thing that I was reminded of early this morning on the way here. In looking at the construction of the new intersection at Allandale Road and the Parkway there, I noticed that at the cornerS of the sidewalks the City

June 2, 1978 Tape 3885 EC - 2 MR. N. WINDSOR: are making provisions now for wheelchairs, which I think is long overdue. I have supported it for a number of years and have suggested in ttount Pearl when I was there that we should begin. Unfortunately, since I suggest that, I do not think we have built any sidewalks in there. But hopefully, any other sidewalks that are built there this will be done with these low backs at the intersections for the benefit of people in wheelchairs and also people, of course, pushing baby carriages and prams and what not.

And in accordance with that, Sir, I would like to gentian the Wheelathon that is taking place this Sunday afternoon down at the harbour front. I am going to be down there quite ably filling a wheelchair as I have for the last two or three years. AN HON. MEMBER: Filling or pushing? MR. N. WINDSOR: Filling. AN HON. HEHBER: (Inaudible) push one. ~!R. N. WINDSOR: No, I have to fill one. I guess they figure I am not capable of pushing one, AN HON. MEMBER: No, it is the lot of the Opposition to push. HR. N, WINDSOR: That is right! ~aybe you will ~e pushing me! Most appropriate, undoubtedly.

But, Sir, I would encourage all hon. members to come down and take part. It is a very worthwhile thing. The Paraplegic Association are doing some excellent work in this Province. I support them wholeheartedly and I would recommend that any hon. member who is available Sunday afternoon come down and take part. SOME HON. MEMaERS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hear, hear!

June 2, 1978 Tape 3885 EC - 3 ~!R. SPEAKER: (Young) Order, please! Before I recognize the han. member, I vould like to welcome to the galleries from Central High School in Gander Bay, eleven students from Special Education, accompanied by their teachers, Hr. Ronald Ayre and Mr. Philip Butt. sm:E !tON. }!E!1BETI.S: :-!R. SPEAKER: MR. CALLAN: Hear, hear! The hon. the menber for Bellevue. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, in the ninety minutes that I have at my disposal I hope to get into some of the issues confronting my district.

I say ninety ninutes because my seat mate here, the han. the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight) has consented to give me his forty­ five vith the leave of the House, of course, that can be arranged, I guess. Hr. Speaker, I want to get into several topics this morning. I do not intend to be nasty - that is not my intention this morning - perhaps that vill happen, I do not know. I hope it does not - I do not intend for that to happen. But, Mr.

Speaker, I want first of all, since I did not get a chance the other night in the debate that we had on the spruce budworm spraying thing and so on - the time ran out at 11:00 P.M. so I did not get into that - I have a couple of ideas on it, so I thought I might take perhaps five minutes to talk about the controversial spruce budworm problem and the spraying programme and everything that goes with it. Mr. Speaker, we have heard a lot of controversy about it in this Uouse. He have heard debates on it. We have heard through the oedia different viewpoints and so on.

June 2, 1978 Tape 3885 EC - 4 HR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, let me say this, that I think there is in this instance as there is in

June 2, 1978, Tape 3886, Page 1 apb ~m. CALLAN: most any instance there is a happy medium. I do not think, Mr. Speaker, that the government has steered toward that happy medium, I think they have gone off on the deep end in one direction when, as I say, I think there is a happy medium. Mr. Speaker, if a patient is sick, say, with a tumour, with a stomach tumour or any other kind of a tumour, a doctor may take the option of prescribing medicine to alleviate the paid and so on, but the tumour, the problem still remains. The sensible thing to do, of course, would be to remove the tumour. In this case, Mr.

Speaker, I want to draw the analogy. I think that the forest in our Province is the patient and I do not think that a spraying programme, just a spraying programme alone is the answer to the problem. We have 5 million cords of wood dead on the stump, as they say. I think, Mr. Speaker, that an awful lot more money should have been allocated in the budget to look after our forests in this Province.

We have the woods access roads programme which is funded, I understand, 75 per cent by the federal government 25 per cent by the provincial government, a good programme a programme where we get a lot of assistance from ~~e federal goverr~ent in order to push forest access roads into our timber stands, the overmature timber, the timber that the spruce budworm feeds on. I think, Mr. Speaker the happy medium is this: I think we should be spending a lot more money, perhaps several millions on harvesting that overmature timber coupling that with a proper reforestation programme. Now, ~tr. Speaker, we have the

June 2, 1978, Tape 3886, Page 2 -- apb t-!R. CALLAN: Liner board mill which is shut down - and some of the things that I will be saying here now in the next two or three m~nutes have already been said - but we have the Linerboard mill which is shut down which, of course, is one avenue where this harvested wood could be put to good use, by reopening the Stephenville Linerboard mill. Mr. Speaker, at this time in our Province about 65 per cent of the timber that is used in this Province is imported, brought in from other provinces, 65 per cent, about two-thirds.

Two­ thirds of the timber that we use in this Province for building and all the other uses is imported. Mr. Speaker, everybody knows how valuable and how convenient it is to have a bank, a money bank like the one at Arnold's Cove, for example, or the one at Whitbourne. The people who have the money go and put their money in and the people who want it go and buy it at ten and-a-half per cent or eleven per cent, whatever it is, borrow it, buy it, the same difference. Mr.

Speaker, I think what is needed in this Province is a system of lumber banks across this Province, lumber banks distributed across this Province in areas, of course, where the forest and the timber is readily available. So we set us a system of lumber banks across this Province, banks that the big contractors can go to rather than have their lumber brought in by rail from as far away as B.C. We set up our own lumber banks and so the companies, the large firms in this Province which use large amounts of lumber for buildings of various kinds, they would use our own native lumber rather than import it. Now, Mr.

Speaker, obviously I know that there are certain types of lumber we cannot

June 2, 1978, Tape 3886, Page 3 -- apb HR. CALLAN : produce in this Province. Ne do not have the forest, the size of trees to produce some of the building materials which have to meet CMHC standards and what have you, but I drive every morning by Chester oawe's, for example, Chester Dawe's premises

out there and you see t~..-o ~y four, two by three that is im~orted brought directly from 7ancouver, right froo B.C. 1.rith all due respect to the people t-;e have in the gallery or ""e had in the gallery from that Province. So, Mr.

Speaker, t.~ere is another use to which this harvested tirr.ber can be put and at the same time of course creating the badly needed jobs, badly needly not only in the forest industry, in the logging industry, ~nrvestin~ the forest but also putting carpenters ann other people to work in building these lumber ~anks across the Province at various strategic points across this Pro\Yince as distribution points for t~e local fellow ~ho wants a thousand board feet or for the laq:;e constructior. firn that need.<; several million board feet of lumber. ~!r.

Speaker, I do not think •I do not Jelieve that I am totally and absolutely against the spray program. Perhaps we need it but not near towns and cities, not near water supplies,not interfering with the head waters of this Province. If we are going to have a Jpray program at all, Nr. Speaker, I think it should be done a very experimental basis, very experimental, very controlled and removed from settlements and tGwns anrl communities.

So. :--1r. 8peaker, there is a happy medium ! think there is a happy medium in tie spruce budworm control program and I believe t~at the government before it starts spraying next week ~-toulrl - they are making a mistake. The !tlnister of ForestrJ and Agriculture told us this morning that they have re-examined it and so on and they said no He are not going t:o chan:;;?. our r-.ind. i-7e are not going to change our mind: Hr. Speaker, ! remember € few :.·ears ago I used to train students at the high sChoOl whicit I Laught - train them to go on :he rBC Reach For The Top. As a matter of

Jane J237 fact in four different years I took four different to the c:nc studios and they ~.,.ent on for their Reach For The Top program. A Very famous man now of courQ~ is host of that program '!r. Bob Cole that is when I tlet ,in for the first time. A!< l:!ON. :D3ER: contract. H!l. CALLAN: Yr. Speal-.er, at that tin:e I had an awful lot of interest in that Reach For The !op program I ~;atc!-ted it faithfully,taped it off the television on to a tape recorder to provide myself with a battery of questions in training my students and so on. But I remember ~atch!ng that prograr.t one night, "r.

Speaker, I remember watching that program one night and ~·r. Eoi1 Cole was asking some questions and he said·, 'Okay, the nettt set of questions has to de with s::.akespear~', exe-:ts from Shakespeares plays and t-that have you.

And so he said and he started off the question and then he said, 'To be or not to be' and one of the Reach ror The Top teams prPssed the buzzer and Bob Cole looked at him and he said'to be' before Bob Cole could get a chance to read out the question to be or not to be that it the question whether it is ~ohle and so on that he was going to ask ! assume .,;hat play does it come fror.1 or who said i>;: and so on. But the young fellot: interrupted 'nir:1 very abruptly after he harl said to be or not to be. A ... ,d the younr: fellow said to be. J·.; - ~!r.

Speaker, I believe that this governnent is very much like that young stu1ent. They do not :...rait to hear the question or to hen.r the rest of the stateoent, they do not look into and examine all the ramifications. A~! PON. :~~BER: In the case of the spruce budworn spraying ?rogram I think the government said 'to be 1 without loo\:in?: at all the ramifications and all the facts and figures. Hear, hear!

:':P.. CALLA!!: 1 think they looked at the Stephenville Linear~oard mill and they said 'not to be', they looked at the Cooe by Chance Refinery and they said 'not to be'. The ~~nister of Tourism looked at the hunter capability test and even though his officials said to ·'.ir.t 'you l:now obviously before you give a test you give i~st=uction' and so obviously the first thi~g we should do is give instruction and then give tests. ~:a the minister 5aid'to ~e','to be' ~.Jithout e:r.ar.dning all of the rJ.nister in another f!Ortfolio dirl the saft'-e thin~ ..-hen he rlecirler.! to go :vit:,. the slovr traffic l:eep right and c!1an;:e t:.at to the systen that we have today. ~·.; - 3

June. 2, 1978 Tape No. 3888 :T!1 - 1 MR. CALUN: I drive on the TCH every day of the week, Xr. Speaker, and I know that it is not because the people have been educated into how to use that highway and the new rules regarding the TCH, it is not because they know and because they have been informed and taught how to use it that there are so few accidents, it is just because I believe there are an awful lot of defenceless drivers who avoid accidents.

Because I would say that at least fifty per cent of the people I see on the TCH do not understand how to use that so-called, what used to be the slow lane and of course keep right except to pass as it is now, to be or not to be, And I would say, Mr. Speaker, that this is the fault of this goverr~ent, They cannot seem to do anything right. They cannot seem to do anything right.

I think there is a happy medium in this spruce budworm controversy and I think, and I believe, that the government will be making a large mistake if they do not take a second look at, the opposition to it is mounting but the minister and the Minister of Health do not even bother to go to the meetings that they are invited to, where the people want to hear their opinions and to have their side of the story. They do not even bother to go. I would say, Mr. Speaker, because they do not know how to answer the questions that they know will be put: to them. Mr.

Speaker, I want to get on. co anot:her topic now, I want to get on t:o t:he topic of this House of Assembly and perhaps I will call a quorum in a minute because I think it is important. I do not know where all the government members are this ~~ing. They have exactly the same number on that side now as they had the other night vhen the member for Burgee - lay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) called a quorum and wasted an ~our and a half out of his unlimited time. They have five on the other side, six now.

June 2, 1978 MR. W. ROWE: HR. CALLAN: House of Assembly. Tape :Io. 3888 Disgraceful! No quorum !n the House. ~r. Speaker, I want to talk about the ~1H - 2

June 2, 1978 Tape 3889 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER (OR. COLLINS): Order, p 1 ease! I am informed a quorum is present. I might just mention to han. members because the issue has come up,whether time out for a quorum call does come out of the han. member 1 s allotted time? And it does. The han. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, thank you. I was well aware that three minutes was coming out of my time, I only have eighty-seven minutes now. But, Mr. Speaker, I was aware of it also when I called a quorum for the member for Mount Pearl (Mr. N.

Windsor), but just to show that I am fair I took three minutes of his time, so now I have also taken three minutes of my own. Mr. Speaker, want to talk about the House of Assembly for a few minutes. MR. NEARY: Be very careful now. ~1R. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, there is a widespread, a widespread misconception around the Province, and,I believe, in the media, and in the minds of some people who should know the difference, who should know the difference, the President of the Board of Trade, for example, should know the difference. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR.

CALLAN: think it was the President, I am not sure, I believe it was. I do not know. There was somebody anyv.Jay who said a while ago that the House of Assembly should get down to the job that it is there for, create jobs in this Province AN HON. MEHBER: (Inaudible). NR. CALLAN: And then we hear peep 1 e on open 1 i ne prograrrmes, ca 11 ers in and so on saying, the Opposition is wasting the time of the House. Why are they talking about this scandal or that scandal, when look at all of the unemployment we have. Mr.

Speaker, let me repeat, I said the other day in a short speech, let me repeat, unless I am a¥tfully wrong unless I am under the wrong illusion completely I see this House of Assembly as a debating forum, a debating forum - SOHE HON. t~EHBERS: Hear, hear!

June 2, 1978 Taoe 3889 PK - 2 t4r. Callan: - a place where we in the flpposition have the opportunity,the responsibility, and the duty to question the government on hunter capability testing or on roads in our districts, where we have the responsibility and the duty to present petitions that are sent to us by the people in our districts. It is a debating forum. It is a debating forum where we debate the pros and the cons of Nordsee, the pros and the cons of the Linerboard Mill, and the Come By Chance Refinery, and all of the other things that come up from time to time. And, Mr.

Speaker, anybody ~ ... ha has the illusion that the House of Assembly should be creating jobs obviously they do not understand, they do not know 1>1hat they are talking about, and they do understand what the House of Assembly is all about. AN HON. MEHBER: (Inaudible). 14R. CALLAN: mandate. It is the government, Mr. Speaker, it is the government's AN HON. MEMBER: Right. MR. CALLAN: It is the government's responsibility and the government has a mandate to create jobs for the people in this Province, and they do not do it for the couple of months that the House of Assembly is open, Mr.

Speaker, they do it twelve months of the year, or they should be doing it, if they renege on that mandate, Mr. Speaker, then the time has come for the people of this Province not to say, what is going on in the House of Assembly. It is discussing. They should be creating jobs - MR. NEARY: The Telegram says they have got to go! MR. CALLAN: What the people of this Province should be saying, and what responsible news media people should be saying is, that the House of Assembly is not a place that creates jobs.

We pass bills, we pass supply bills, and we make money available for salaries to civil servants, and to social services recipients, all this is part of it, sure. But this is a debating forum, a place where we can bring out scandal if it exists, it is our duty, it is our responsibility as an Opposition to show up corruption if it is there. Are we going to be party to the crime, by knowing that it is there, and not root it out and bring it to public attention?

June 2, 1978 Arl HON. MEtlB ER: !1R. CALLAN: Tape 3889 PK - 3 (Inaudible). Anybody - prove it. prove it as we have done.

June 2, 1978 Tape ::To. 3890 N::-t - 1 MR. CALLAN: Prove it, Prove it as ~e have done. MR. MORGAN: - in your own party to - MR. NEARY: Is that so? Well put them on the table of the Rouse as ~e have done, ;m, CALLAN: Put them on the t~ble. MR. ~t:ARY: The han. gentleman should have been watching television last night. MR. CALLAN: He heard the member for Grand Falls (Xr. Lundrigan) say that about twenty minutes ago. That is where he came across that cliche, MR, W. ROWE: :m.. CALLAN: Original thought. Original thought, The member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan) said it a few minutes ago. I heard him. MR.

NEARY: - House must have a ruling. MR. CALLAN: Do you have a thought of your own? Or do you have to use somebody else's? That, Mr. Speaker, is what this House of Assembly is all about, MR. MORGAN: MR. CALLAN: The charges that we have made in this House of ~~sembly, Mr. Speaker, the proof has been there. ~.NEARY: Especially the helicopter one. MR. HORGAN: Never did. MR. NEARY: Did we not1 We got a letter from one of the han. gentlenan's constituents. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, last night in this han.

House a member of the governcent, as a matter of fact a member of the Cabinet, in a conversation with me informed me that he had heard that I was in trouble in my district. Well, Mr. Speaker, I want to say several things about that. Number one, Mr. Speaker, I was terrified and shocked, I did not sleep all night, what a terrible thing to find out MR. MORGAN: You will not lose any sleep by me,

June :, 1978 Tape ~o. 3890 :'i!:-1 - 2 ~. CALLAN: - that you are in trouble in your district, 'Jhat a terrible thought, Mr. Speaker, I was at a public meeting in my district the other night and I was asked, among other questions - MIL NEARY: they are going to cannoni:e him. MR. CALLAN: - I was asked among other questions, How are you enjoying being a member of the House? Wbat is it like and so on. And the answer that ! gave then, ~ir. Speaker, and I say it now, what a waste of three years, wasted three years.

Coming in here, presenting petitions for better roads, for artesian wells, and for all the other things that the people out there need and deserve - l!R. MURPHY: I agree with you, wasting three years in the history of this Parliament? MR. NEARY: Yes but the government is wasting it. The governmene has to - MR. CALLAN: - and not getting any response, Xr. Speaker. HR. NEARY: - programmes and measures. MR. CALLAN: Not getting any response, Mr. Speake~, getting empty promises, empty promises and bluffs and that is it, So, Mr.

Speaker, if I am in trouble in my district, then I hope and I know it is for all the right reasons. Hr. Speaker, let me say this, that I want to go on record now as saying this, that if I, providing of course I run and all that sort of thing, and win the nomination, if I am the candidate, there is a lot of ifs, ands and buts of course, but assuming that I am the Liberal candidate, or no matter who is, assuming that I am the Liberal candidate, if I lose, Mr. Speaker, I hope and I know ttat I will lose for all the right reasons. And I would rather have it that way, Mr.

Speaker, than Yin for all the wrong reasons, which I know is the way that certain individuals will win. I know the politics that they are playing MR. NEARY: But the people are wiser.

Ju:1.e 2, 1978 Tape :{o. 3891 MR. CALLAN: - the Cabinet ministers. Hr. Speaker, I want to make another statement, which I know will make the headlines, and which I kno~ uill end up in an intervie~ vith the gentleman from CBC, because it always does when you say something in this House, Mr. Speaker, let me say this, that MHA's are their worst enemies. MR. NEARY: That is right, >!R. CALLA.~: Hembers of this House of Assembly are 'W'OrSt enemies. MR. NEARY: True, MR. CALLAN: Any MHA, xr.

Speaker, who pretends to :r:r - 3 their people that I am available seven days a week, twelve months of the year, is his worst enemy because we should be conveying the right impression, that we as members of this House of Assembly are entitled to a private life, are entitled to days off, holidays and weekends and a few holidays in the Summer. MR. II. P.OIIE: MR. CALLAN: But do not take it to extreme like that minister, That, Mr. Speaker, is one way in which members of this House of Assembly are their worst enemies. They are creating the wrong impression among their constituents and you have, Mr.

Speaker, PC members going around in Liberal districts t~Jing to undermine that member. Mr. Speaker, last 1o1eek - ~. MORGA..~: Is this the name of the game?

June 2,19i8 !-ffi. CALLA."l: A."l HON.::!E,!BER: MR. CALLAlt : Tape :-lo. 3891 !lo it is not the name of the game. Sure it is. Ali-1 It is not the name of the game. If you think that is the name of the game then you know x~othing at all about democracy. AN' E.ON .t!EMBER: That is party politics. ~m. SPEAKER: (Dr.

Collins) Order, please: I think hon. members t.•ill recognize that it is more or less the tradition of the House that during budget debate especially when those not members of the administration are discussing matters they are really directing their attention mainly to th.-Jir owu districts and the House gives them the courtesy of listening in relative silence. HR. CALLA..1>l: That is right, Sir. Thank you. New, Mr. Speaker, let me cake another statement. From time to time !:1 federal and provincial politics Ye hear such statements as poli::ical interference, influence peddling and so on. :;ell, !·lr.

Speaker, as far as I am concerned any minister of the Crown or any member who pretends and who goes to any length to try and get a job for his constituents by sucking in with say some contractor or somebody by giving them a gift, it could be a bottle of rum or it could be a coloured television, it could be any number of things, any person, Mr. Speaker, whether he be on the government or the apposition side - tffi.W.ROWE: :·m. CALLAN: It could be twenty coloured television sets. That is right. That, !1r. Speal-.er, to ::te is influence peddling.

If I today phone up some construction company here in chis city and say, I have a gentl~an out in my district and he wants a job as a carpenter. Now as you know of course we may form the governcent the next time around so I want you to do me this favour and of course the man gets the job. In my opinion, Mr. Speaker, that is influence peddling, it is political interference and any member of this House of Assembly who pretends in whatever way to his constituents or to the general public that this is the way it is done as the Minister of Tourism just said "This is all part of the game." it is not part of the game.

Hr. Speaker, and in that respect I say this, that ~mAs are their worst enemies, their very worst enemies.

June 2,1973 Tape :So. 3891 AH-2 ;m. CALLA.~: }~. Speaker, if I am in trouble in my district, Hr. Speaker, then I a:n in trouble for all the right reasons,and I 'Jould rather be in trouble for all the right reasons than win an elec:icn for all the ·wrong ones. AN HON .MEMBER: Are you in trouble or anything? MR.CALLAN: If I were told, I was told. We will get to that perhaps in more detail later on. AN HON .::!E.."ffiER: HR. CALLAN: (Inaudible) What is that? Yes right. Well I did not sleep all night,when the member told me this last night, I did nat sleep all night.

I left the house early, around ten o'clock I left and irove home and I tossed and turned all night. My wife had to get aut in the middle of the night and go to the chesterfield, she could not sleep because I was jumping around so much, twisting and turning in my sleep. \Jhat is that? MR..aURPHY: Is that a political reason or some other reason? MR. CALLAN: Well lets not - ~:. Speaker, if I am in trouble I know I am in trouble for all the right reasons and ! would rather live with my conscience, Mr. Speaker, than live with a job that I got for all the wrong reasons. That is my answer to that quest!on. Mr.

Speaker, there are a n~ber of things I could say but I do not have that much ttme, fifteen minutes, fourteen as a matter of fact. I want to take a quick trip to my district. It is the fourth largest district in the Province 1 that is the number of voters 7,500,most districts that you look at have voters 4,500, 5,000, 6,600, 5,280 and so on, over 7,500 voters in the district of Bellevue. It is a large district it was made large intentionally by the administration, they cut off all the PC sections to the best of their ability and they left the Liberal section. the district of Bellevue, the Liberal

section in there but ti:tey cut of all the PC and put it in Trinity North - this is -what they thought now, this is what they thought but it did not work out as it happened.

June 2,1970 7ape l,o, 3391 .J....i-l-3 HR. CALU..'i: 3ut, Hr. Speaker, perh.1.ps before I get onto my district let me say that there are thirty-si;{ ::om:nunities in my ;,listrict alld when I say communities, :1r. Speaker, I atl not talking about settlements of ten or one

June 2, 1978 Tape 3892 EC - 1 HR. CALLAN: dozen people. And when you talk about Whitbourne and Sorman's Cove and Arnold's Cove and Sunnyside and Swift Current you are not talking about a handful of people, Mr. Speaker -and Hodge's Cove and Little Heart's East and Dildo. AN RON. HEHBER: (Inaudible) :m. CALLAN: That is right. I think it would be interesting for bon, members opposite to hear a little bit about my district, how widespread it is and so on. Harkland. Mr. Speaker, let me start at I do not have that much time even though the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Plight) offered me his forty-five.

Let me start in Markland. Yow how will these people vote in the next election? How much trouble am ! in there? Last time, by the way, the P.C. candidate picked up twenty-four votes compared to one hundred and fifteen by the combined Liberal. ~ow then, Mr. Speaker, have you passed your hunter safety test yet? SONE RON, MEHBERS: Oh, oh! HR. CALLAN: Now, Mr. Speaker, that is Markland. ~arkland has been there for forty-three years, Mr. Speaker - forty-two, forty-three. What do they have there, Mr. Speaker? What kind of paved road do they have there?

How long have they been looking for it1 Have I presented a petition in this Rouse on their behalf? What do they have in the last three years since I have represented them in Opposition. By the way, I might say, Mr. Speaker, that one of the reasons why I am in such deep trouble in my district is because I am the first Opposition member to serve the communities - I cannot say the district

June 2, 1978 Tape 3892 EC - 2 ~IR. CALLAN: because the district did not exist until 1975 - but ! am the first Opposition member who represented these people in the Bouse of Assembly since Confederation. For the first twenty-three years under J. R. Smallwood they always had a Liberal me~ber - you know, Placentia West, Trinity North and Trinity South and so on - now, of course, it is Bellevue. They always had a government member, a Liberal member under Joey Smallwood.

Now then, in 1972 when the government changed, now they had Leo Barry down on that end which comprises part of the district, they had the member for Trinity ~orth who was still a member representing a lot of it and, of course, Hr. Jim Reid represented the rest of it. So in the first twenty-three years of Confederation they had a Liberal member and the government was Liberal. From 1972 to 1975, these three years, they had P.C. members and, of course, the government was P.C.

So for the first time in history the communities, the thirty-six of them that comprise the district of Bellevue, are represented by an Opposition member.

And it is difficult sometimes to explain to people, but perhaps after twenty-five years of having a man in the government - you know, perhaps it is a little bit difficult for them to appreciate the fact that if they want an ice making machine down in Southport that all I can do is say, 'Okay, a half dozen of you get in a car - a delegation of fishermen - cone in and we will sit down with the Minister of Fisheries and then we will talk about it.' And it is a good case - of course it is a good case. Well, now then it is up to the Minister of Fisheries Co make the money available. We did that.

I and the delegation down in Southwest Arm did that in 1975, 1976, 1977 - they did not get it! :row are these people

June 2, 1978 Tape 3892 EC - 3 ~!R. CALLAN: down there blaming me because the government decided not to put some of their tax dollars back there? He knows nothing. The Minister of Tourism is an idiot - he knows nothing. HR. SPEAKER: (Young) Order, please! MR. CALLAN: He thinks that all he sleeps and dreams and dreams and walks and talks is politics - trying to cake this member look bad- and'I will put ten miles of pavement in here. t had thirty-one miles of pavement last year, I will put another ten in.' Let me bring up a question, Mr. Speaker. Perhaps ! will not get any further than Markland it looks like.

Perhaps I will get out to the Markland hospital I may get out to the Boys' Home in ~hitbourne. I will not get to the Crossroads. I will not get out to the Tourist Chalet at the Whitbourne Crossroads I do not think. But let me say this, Hr. Speaker, last Fall when telephone conversations took place and people wrote letters and so on, there was no money available to go from the last house in Deep Bight and do Adeyton. 'There is no money available. All the funds have been allocated for paved roads this year.' That is fine - a good explanation.

Too bad - you ~now, disappointed - disappointed to see this sort of petty politics. People will never forget it, never forgive the member for Trinity North for allowing it to happen. If he had any principles - I told him that on the 'phone when I talked to him about a social service problem -I said, 'You are a member of Cabinet. Are you going to sit there and allow this to happen?' I would not do it, Sir.

I would not allow my government to be shown up in such an arrogant and such a partisan way to pave to the last house in Jeep Bight because it is a P.C. district, and then because the next inch of road through Adeyton

June 2, 1978 Tape 3892 EC - 4 ~IR. CALLAN: is a Liberal district you are not going to pave it even though it is all there - the paving equipment is there in the area, they are going to do that, and it is on the same loop road

June 2, 1978, Tape, 3893, Page 1 -- apb HR. CALLAN: and so on. The people go back and forth to each others churches and all that. I would not allow it to happen. I asked the member for Trinity North (Mr. Brett) , I said, 11 Are you going to allow it to happen?" He said, "I am only one member of a cabinet .. " "Well," I said, Sir, "if I were. yo? I would not be one ma~er of that cabinet for very long, I would be like the Minister of Tourism who went against his cabinet on the spruce budworrn, or the member for Grand Falls (Mr.

Lundrigan) who had more guts still and left the Cabinet altogether over the Grand Falls hospital, or we assume that is why he left, but we have other thoughts on that. But anyway, that was fine, Mr. Speaker, there was no money available to do Adeytown and that is it.. That is it, there is no money available. All the funds have been expended. Okay, fine! We wait until the Spring when the budget comes down. I go over to the new Minister of.

T and c. and I say, "When are you going to be in a position to let me know what road work I am going to get done out in my district this year, or you are going to do, the taxpayers are going to do? It made me laugh to hear someone like Jim Reid come out a public meeting in Bellevue and say, 'I have $400,000 for paving in your district.' Where did he get it? He had it!

Not my government had, or you the taxpayers are going to get some of your money back because you deserve to get it back,'I have $400,000 to spend on pavement here.' And this is the language, by the way, that is used by the Hinister of Tourism, I have heard him use it. 'I have. My officials and I have. 1 The taxpayers of this Province who paid it in, they have! They have the money to put back for paving, or ice making machines and the dozens of other things that are paid for by the tax dollars.

June 2, 1978, Tape 3893, Page 2 -- apb MR. CALLAN: But anyway, Mr. Speaker, I said to the new Hinister of Transportation and Conununications, "When will you be in a position to let me know what you are going to do out in the district?" "Well, the budget and the estimates have to go through and so on. 1' 10 Fine! Fine! 11 I came over ~~.

Speaker, and sat down and picked up the newspaper and look through the contract calls and here was a tender call for ten miles of pavement - I did not know where it was and I went out and looked at the map, and lo and behold! the first place I looked, obviously, because I knew there was nobody so cheap and lowdown as to try to trick me, I looked at the map, Bonavista South. Ten miles of pavement - the estimates are not gone through yet.

The minister was not in the position - so I go to him and I say, "You tell me you had no money last year,there was no money last year it was all expended and you cannot go calling contracts because the estimates have to go through~ I said, u there is a tender in the paper. " uAh, that is last year's money." I said, "There was no money last year. There was no money last Fall it was all expended.n Well, I went to the minister last Fall. So, you go to the minister who was minister last Fall, "I am not minister now, I am Minister of Tourism." Now, explain that to the people.

If that is why I am in trouble in my district, Mr. Speaker, then I will enjoy very much being in trouble in my district or anywhere else. Now, Mr. Speaker, ~~rkland. What did they get in the last three years? I went in there to more than one public meeting in the church, the only place they had to call a public meeting- in the Anglican Church, I believe it was, or the United Church, it does not matter - I went in therei "How

June 2, 1978, Tape 3893, Page 3 -- apb M.'<. CALLAN : are we going to get something done with our roads?" "I do not know. I presented a petition on your behalf, it is up to the government. I am an Opposition member." "Well, we never get anything in Harkland. We never get anything. IVe never get anything from Ottawa, we never get anything from the provincial government." I said, 1'0kay, make out an application for a LIP grant and I will see that you get it." They made out the application and so now they have a community centre in there. That is what they have gotten in the last three years.

Are they going to vote against me or any other Liberal candidate in the next election because the Government of this Province decided not to give them any pavement in there while the Liberal Government in Ottawa gave them a community centre, somewhere they can congregate rather than congregating in a church? I could go on, Mr. Speaker. WhitbOurne: Whitbourne has a water and sewer system that has never worked. Whose fault is that? I do not know. It was the first inland town, not Grand Falls. Grand Falls was not the first inland town in this Province, Whitbourne.

Markland, forty-three years old; Whitbourne the first inland town and you know who it is called after. Let me go down to Old Shop.

June 2, 1977 Tape 3894 PK - 1 Mr. Callan: not a bad little town.Old Shop, not a bad little to~>m, no trouble at all actually. I had a scattered call about a piece of Crown 1 and or a fe 11 ow \>tants to get a sawmi 11 1 i cence and so on. Hot much to say. A fair degree of employment there, a lot of fishermen around and so on. Old Shop, of course, is tied in with Dildo .anyway, South Dildo, Dildo. \jith all due respect, Mr. Speaker, I want to say this to the member for St. John1 s Centre (Mr. Murphy); when he made the remark last night in answer to the member for St. John's West (Dr. Kitchen) he said.

J'Tell the women to go home. Tell the women to go home so as their sons and daughters can get jobs." want to say this that if the member for St. John's Centre was to go out with me to the four or five fish plants that exist there in Dildo, a brand new one now by the way, Trino- the only place in this Province where seal pelts are brought a~d processed, partially processed -if the member for St.

John 1 s Centre vJas to go out with me and tell the hundreds of women who have to work there, by the way, have to work there to keep body and soul together, if he was to go out there and tell these women go home, go home - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. CALLAN: - so as your sons and daughters can cr.ll'e to totork - AN HO~. MEMBER: All the fish plants in Newfoundland. MR. CALLAN: - I would say that the member for St. John's Centre would discover very, very quickly how cold the ... mters are in Trinity Bay. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. CALLAN: MR. MURPHY: A corner boy. He would be split, gutted and head off.

I believe he would. (Inaudible). St. Jahn 1 s, you know, when a husband and wife worked side by side - MR. CALLAN: can tell the member for St. John 1 s Centre, Mr. Speaker, - AN HON .'.MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. CALLAN: I can tell in the couple of minutes that I have left, I can tell the member for St. John 1 s Centre, and I will take my own case as an example,that if my wife was not working from time to time

June 2, 1978 Tape 3894 PK - 2 Mr. Callan: in the post office, and if she was not getting that sixty-odd dollars from Ottawa that she is getting that I would have had to quit this job for long ago to go and - so my wife is not working - MR. NEARY: Get the dole order. MR. CALLAN: - because she is trying to take a job from somebody else. ~h~ is working,Mr.Speaker, because that is the only way that I can manage. And the member knows what I am getting at. He knows what r am living on .• and he knows what kind of machine r park dm1n in front of this building. r-1r. Speaker, I could go out to Woody Island - AN HON.

MENSER: (! naudi b 1 e). MR. CALLAN: could go out to Woody Island. I wonder is the boat ready, the speed boat that will take me out to Woody Island one of the resettled places - there is a topic that could last for several hours, oerhaps I will get into that in more detail - I could go out to \</cody Is 1 and if the boat is ready and ever\' body is in it. Now is the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan) in the boat yet? Is he in it yet? Perhaps the member for Placentia (Mr. Patterson) is in the boat also. MR. SPEAKER (MR. YOUNG): Order, please! MR. CALLAN: I do not think they are in the boat at all, fir.

Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (MR. YOUNG): remarks. I will ask the han. member to continue his MR. CALLAN: Yes. Okay. I do not think they are in the boat at all. Mr. Speaker, because they are not going to go out in a speed boat to Woody Island, they are going to go out in a helicopter. have seen them out there. I saw them on CBC Television eating lobsters out on Woody Island, and then they come back and say - MR. NEARY: What about the buffalo - MR. CALLAN: We did not know that was in your district. He did not know that was in your district. i.fe went out for a great bit of fun on a government helicopter.

We did not even know it was in your district. SOME HON. ME!~BERS: Oh, oh! ~1R. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, do you know what happened on Woody Island?

June 2, 1978 Taoe 3894 PK - 3 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh. oh! MR. SPEAKER (MR. YOUNG): Order, please! MR. CALLAN: There ~<Jere fifteen voters, nine voted P. C. and six Liberals. MR. SPEAKER (MR. YOUNG): Order, please! The han. member1 s time has expired. MR. CALLAN: Thank you. I had expected the same. MR. SPEAKER (MR. YOUNG): The han. the member for St. John 1 s East. MR. W. MARSHALL: fir.

Speaker, first of a 11 before I get into the main body of my remarks on the Budget Speech I ~,omuld like to observe that feel that there have been very few remarks passed in this Budget debate concerning the content of the Budget itself, the financial position of the Province, and what have you. am going to hopefully turn the main body of my remarks towards this, and before so doing.

Oecause I do not H;:mt to get the 7!inister of Finance's blood pressure jumping, I would like to say that even though I will have remarks about the financial condition of the Province that I think are necessary to draw to the attention of this House;that I would like him to know, and the House to know that I whole-heartedly endorse this Budget. f have no hesitation in stating this, I think the Budget is one of the better, if not the best Budgets brought in by this administration, AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR.

MARSHALL: And it is one that has to go a long way in other directions,as wi11 indicate in my comments, but I thought it was an excellent document and one that should be enthusiastically supported by the members of this House. But be that as it may, Mr. Speaker, we are now discussing the third consecutive restraint Budget in a row. In the last three years we have seen curtailment of expenditures

June 2, 1978, Tape 3895, Page 1 -- apb l·ffi. MARSHALL: with resultant deminishing services. Surely then the prime question to be debated when we are addressing ourselves to the budget is why this is so? What is the reason? What is the problem? And even more importantly, what steps have to be taken in order to be able to cope with it. ~m. W.N.ROWE: The former administration stated - HR. MARSHALL: We will get to the former administration. We are never too far away from the stranglehold that the former administration has on the economy of this Province, so the hen. members will not be disappointed.

My principle reason, as I say, Mr. Speaker, for rising in the debate, is to attempt to direct the House's and public's attention to this problem. It seems to me incredible that after seventy-five hours of estimates, and being treated to a marathon debate by the chief financial critic of the Opposition, I do not believe there was one word spoken concerning the excruciating and worsening financial position. Certainly there has been no focusing of attention on the problem as there most definitely ought to be.

The putative .Hinister of Finance in the next administration spent quite a period of time talking about a letter written by the Minister of Mines and Energy to a former schoolmate of his, he spent quite a period of time talking about tapes and what have you, and the usual diatribe from the Opposition about scandal, but there has been no real concerted effort to make an examination and to make any comments pertaining to the fiscal position of this Province, and this problem is urgent and it is pressing. }tr. Speaker, it is not under­ stating the matter to say it is jeopardizing our security,

June 2, 1978, Tape 3895, Page 2 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: and it today constitutes a financial straitjacket which is really threatening to cut off the circulation and the lifeblood of this Province. Surely, there is no member of this House who can really sincerely say that we are not now a country in crisis, with necessary services becoming more unattainable and minimal goals being unreachable. &iy person who cannot recognize these facts in the midst of restraint budgets with which we have been greeted obviously, I submit, is not within the realm of reality.

It is to me incredible, as I say, that the problem could thus far escape meaningful discussion on examination. And certainly it is in the hope of directing the attention of this House and the public, if possible, to this problem that I now rise. Now, what is this problem? The root cause then, in my estimation, of us being faced and finding ourselves now on the brink of possible financial disaster - and that is not understating it - is the size of our present public debt. That is the only expenditure, Mr. Speaker, which is rising.

The only expenditure which is consistently rising and constantly rising can be seen from this document here by anyone who wants to examine it. I do not believe there was a reference to the contents of it in the finance critic's fifteen hour speech. Now, the consolidated fund consists of,in the main, interest on our debt. And if anyone wishes to refer to it they will see the financial debt of the Province set forth in appendix 2, on pages 134 and 135 of the estimates, where there it is measured in the gigantic sum of $152,419,000.

Last year our net expenditure under consolidated revenue fund which members will find

June 2, 1978, Tape 3895, Page 3 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: on page 111 of the estimate - no, it is statement 3, that is why I had 111, the Roman Numerals there - but the net expenditure expended last year was $144,290,000 of which $143,000,000 of that is interest on debt. The reason for the slight reduction is the related revenue which was applied to it. Now, I draw :i:irst of all to the attention of this House the alarming fact that this increase is the highest increase of all expenditures last year. When I say higher, I mean it is higher percentage-wise and in actual dollar aoounts.

It is higher than the gigantic expenditures on education and health. Education rose last year by approximately $13.5 million, while health rose by $20.5 million,

June 2, 1973 * :'ape 389h p~,i - 1 ~fR. H. !·WlSP.ALL: yet thP net increase in consolidated revenue fund, Hr. Speaker, was $23 million last year and it will go up even higher next year. And if these figures do not cause no concern then I would submit that this House cannot be moved to the concern which is necessary to grip with the problems. Figures night be dry, Mr. Speaker, but just consider the effect. Surely this is cause for alarm when interest payments skyrocket while surely needed social expenditures are being cut year after year.

Restated the needed services cannot be provided because we have to pay the escalating interest. Nou,that is a fact of life whet!<er we like to accept it or whether we do not want to accept. Now, if the tnagnitude of this problem, Hr. Speaker, carnot be perceived by comparism within from one year to the other :rom this year to the other~ let us consider the fact that interest payments on the public debt have increased since 1974 by the startling amount of 100 per cent. In 1974 we were paying interest on our debt of S7S million, thts year !Je are paying $150 million.

Now at the same time it has got to be noted that there were huge increases in the same perio.i in education and healthr education increased by approximately 70 per cent fro~ 1974 and health has increased by over 300 per cent. But,nevertheleas,we cannot overlook the crippling effect of the fact that interest payr.ents now cons~~tute our largest single e7.penditure increase. This is an irreducible expense whict will continue to escalate.

In order to meet this i~crease,and this is a mandatory increase~ that there is nothin~ we can do about 1 we cannot cut,So vhat do we have to do?~·ie have to reduce necessary expenditures. And that is the sum total reason why there have been the reductions and the restraint budgets and the reductions in services and let it be abundantly clear that there will be farther reductions and services as the time goes on.

June 2, l9i8 !ape 3S96 ~m.. H. ~!ARSlL\LL: ~!r. Speat:er, to my mind disaster looms if this problem is not perceived ~nd understood and if it is not tackled and dealt trlth. :;ow the obvious question arises as to why did not the Opposition draw this problem sharply to the attention of the House. I mean 1 this surely is the function of an Opposition, certainly an Opposition critic on finance. !-lot a w-ord, not a whisper about it.

On the other hand, perhaps some people can say how can a government member point out this fact and retain confidence of the present administration as better of the alternatives7 The answer to both of these questions, of eourse 1 lies in the c:.use of our present: dilemma.And nm·r ! am going to satisfy the Leader of the Opposition because I believe that• the root cause of this escalating debt has been the mismanagement: of the administration which,when it left office,also left a legacy to this problem of a $1 billion debt. He are not supposed to mention this fact..

We are not supposed to whisper it. all. we are supposed to forget it exists and that is the big dan~er.And when mention is made of it it is pointed out that the previous government borrowed $1 billion and this government has in seven short or eight short years !Jorrowed in access of this. ~ow I have heard this referred to not: only by the Opposition which I would expect the Opposition to make this observation but also by certain supposed learned editorialists in this Province from time to time. Such statements,.of cot•rse, presume that $1 billion could have been borrowed at any ti~e without interest.

And if the members of the Opposition can, in fact, borrow a billion dollars or any amount of money of that magnitude ~ thout interest I would say that the government should definitely pack it up and leave the government to them because they are obviously finanCial wizards hut nobody can do this. DH - 2

June 2, 1978 :'ape 3390 ~8, H. Y,. \RSP.../<LL : He must understand then that the Opposition does not r.:.ention these facts, ''r. Speaker, in an effort to save its own skin because it does not vant this fact draw~ to the attention of the public because they know that they t1ill never get back into government again once this chilling factor is knmm.

They know that their onlY chance to get back in the government is to raise scandal after scandal and try to convince the public that this administration is as bad as the one that it took over, ''B.. :-lEARY: }ffi, 'il. !1.-\P...SHALL: t.'hy did you quit the Cabinet1 There is little excuse, Hr. Speaker, why we can understand the desperate attempts of !'W- 3

June 2,1973 AE-1 r·!R.. HA.RSHALL: the Opposition and little is the excuse though I would say for editorialist and so-called informed writers in this Province ~king this statement because the truth of the matter is that obvious interest must be paid year after year. Titere ~ere no funds from our own revenue to pay the interest Yhich ha~ accrued and we have had to borrow the every year interest.

Now interest on $1 billion even conservatively taken at eight per cent is another $80 million per year and this accumulates so it is not hard even with a conservative estimate to put a figure today of the present measure of the $1 billion debt at $1,700,000,000, in other words put $1,7DO,OOO,COO at least at the doorstep of the previous administration.

And when you add to this the commitments made by that administration in their desperate attempt, the cembers opposite, in their desperate attempt to retain government after the period of time by entering into and commiting this Province and plunging it into irretrievable public works such as hospitals and in particular the Health Sciences Complex.where incidentally we were first introduced to the Scrivener group of people who were the consulting engineers at the time, when you add these expenditures that had to be made I do not think, Mr.

Speaker, it is unfair to place at the door of the hon. members the sum of $2 billion as a debt under which this Province laboured and the real reason Yhy services cannot be provided and we are seeing restraint budgets year after year. M..tt. W.ROW'E: A very weak argument, very weak. MR. MARSHALL: But regardless of the cause, Mr.

Speaker, regardless of the cause the f:1c:: is we are, right now,to_day, on the brink I feel of a financial disaster if we fail to address ourselves to this problem, We have to address ourselves to this problem I think on an urgent basis and we have got to bend our entire resources to coping with the matter. The fact is we are not today coping with it adequately at all and indeed this House does not seem even concerned Yith the matter of the debt, The llouse and the public seem to run away from it and I use as an example of this the failure of this House and particularly of the financial critic

June 2,1973 I ape No. 3897 AH-2 llit, }1.'\ItSHALL: of the Opposition to take notice of the answer to the question that was filed by the hon. the Minister of Finance about three weeks ago in response to a question that I had asked sometime before that on April 25th, the only question that I asked this year in the House of the Hinister as to the effect of revaluation of the dollar oo our public debt.

That question in my mind should have,as well as many of the comments,been asked by the Opposition but it was not, ~e got an answer and it is incredible to me again that the reply has not even been addressed to in this House so I am going to address the attention of the House to it right now. !JR. NEARY: What was the reply? MR • >1A.RS1L\LL: The reply which was tabled shows - and the question was; first of all to list the foreign borrowings in the States and the European borrowings and to show us the effect of revaluation and t:'lis is what 1:e get.

The following summarized total foreign borrowings as of March 31,1978 shows the original amount borrowed in foreign funds and the Canadian equivalent received at the date of the borrowings; US dollars we received $558 million.

Deutsche~arks West German currency, $132 million, Swiss franks $24 million and the pounds sterling $14 million, It was observed that the above borrowings include Deutschc.itarks $98 million originally guaranteed by the Province in connection with the establishcent of Labrador Linerboard mill so our first sortie into that West German market was at the instigation of the Liberal administration. Now what has happened? There is a

schedule attached to this~ Mr. Speaker, and this goes to show how shallow the position of the Opposition is, how disgraceful it is in the examination of our fiscal affairs because this same

schedule was on the prospectus that was issued in the recent borrowings in ~rch of 1978 and I think it is mne of the more revealing statistics and certainly o~e that ought to have been brought to the attention of this House and it is as follows: It has a footnote on the

schedule of provincial debenture debt payable

June 2,1973 Tape :~o. 3897 .-\.H-3 :tR. tk\RSH:\LL: on foreign kinds of currencies. It sho~s that from the United States we received in our hands in borrowings

June 2, 1978 Tape 3898 EC - 1 t!_R. MARSHALL: $528 million. As a result of re-evaluation on March 31, 1978 we would have to repay if that debt were all called now, $588 million. In other words, our debt has increased by $50 million in U.S. terms as a result of the U.S. borrowings. But the startling thing, Mr. Speaker, to look at, the startling factor is to look at the answer with respeCt to the neutshemark loans. ~ow the first ones were, as I say, in 1968 when this Province received $132 million on the respective dates of the four or five sorties into the West German market, and the

schedule to the prospectus shows -and I read it - 'converted to Canadian dollars at the rates prevailing on the respective dates of borrowing. Based on the exchange rates existing !!arch 1, 1978, the Canadian dollar equivalent for all debenture debt payable in foreign currency was $885 million, consisting of $588 million for U.S. debenture debt' - and get this - • $239.2 million in Deutsher::.ark debt.' In other words, as a result of re-evaluation, Mr.

Speaker, of the West German loans, we now have to repay at the present time, $100 million extra as a result of currency re-evaluations· Now we talk about mortgage bonusing and what have you - that is some bonus - $100 million. If you work out the interest payable you will find that, for instance~ there was one there of 72 million Deutsche- marks, and the effective interest rate being 8 per cent, if you ~ark out the re-evaluation d to ay you will see, just in interest alone, that our effective rate of interest an these loans is now $14~ million.

Surely, in the name of God, that is a serious situation in which we find ourselves and it is incomprehensible to me that, as I say, the

June 2, 1978 Tape 3898 EC - 2 MR. HARSHALL: financial critic particularly, of the Opposition, could possibly have overlooked the situation. HR. NEARY: What is the remedv? HR. MARSHALL: I will get to a fe~ of the remedies later and twill not be talking about scandals. I hope to be able to make a few constructive rather than destructive suggestions. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) HR. MARSHALL: Yes, exactly. Now this started, Mr. Speaker - Ho~ did this occur?

This started, as I say, this occurred as a result of listening to advice from public servants and from the financial advisors at the particular time, and t say that elected representatives can no longer afford just to mutely accept the recommendations being made from time to time by the civil servants. One has to heed them, one has to take them into account, but in this particular instance now this has been cured. The present financial advisors to this Province, I am glad to say, at the instigation of this government, have long ago stopped borrowing West German currency.

It is a bit too harsh perhaps to turn around and condemn the people who gave the advice in the first instance, but I do think that due regard was as well known in the 1960s and the 1970s - SOME RON. MEMBERS: MR. MARSHALL: I would like, if I may - MR. SPEAKER: Oh, oh! - from both sides, Mr. Speaker, Order, please! The hon. gentleman has asked on both sides for no further interruptions. HR. HARSHALL: It has been well known in the 1950s and 1960s that the West German economy was progressing.

June 2, 1978 Tape 3898 EC - 3 MR. MARSHALL: !he West German and Japanese economies were really progressing. People used to say the vanquished really went to spoils and that is really what occurred. But regardless of ~hat the root causes were it ~as crystal clear that these economies were going ahead in leaps and bounds and the productivity of the North A~erican economy was going down accordingly. So I would myself, I will not say extremely strongly condemn the advice that was given, but I think that the advice should have been given much more careful consideration. As I say, it started in the Liberal days.

I think that the people who gave the advice to this government to do it ~ere the same advisors and that is another story again. There has been far too much readiness on the part of this government, particularly in its early days, to listen to the same advice that was

:Yu::e ..:,, !.97?. '-8.. :!.\.EtSF.ALL: :td::tinistration. In othe:- ·~-o:-ds to sene extent, the governne:tt may have changed, but the adcinistrat::!..on in effect re:::.ained the sa."":le.

A::td that just does not apply to finance, it applies to other areas, but finance is one real area where it vns and as a result of this, 1¥ithout even cast!nG fault shall we say, .... e are $100 million poorer today, But ny !!lain re:tson for brin:;ing it up is not go back four or five yc.:trs, but it is to the excruciatint; :-osi t:!.~n b ~-rhich this !'rovince findc; itself as a result of the ever acceleratin~; Cebt, a.."ld sor::.etlling has ;;at to ~c done about it. overstate t~e t:lattcr, nat:e it too sir:plistic.

Zut I think that there are certain prerequisities that nust be affected i::tt:':ediately. !ndc.ed there are probably many others that oth·~r hon. t:.emb-ars may wist to suggest. First of all,there is no doubt that there must be a full and complete perception and appreciation of the effect of the debt and the perilous results that will result from continued escalation at the present rate. Anc! there is no such appreciation or perception, Hr. Speaker, in this ?rovir.ce today. Tite star:ir.g ?Oint has to be in this '!iouse of ;\sse::~.bly.

And I have ::a :Jbscrvc ::::1at • .. -e l.ave to, ia this 1:ouse 1 ilave a greater Ccpth of exacination of the estioates 1 vhether it is t~e T~rone Speech shoulC coce, and the budget, followed by the estimates, uhcth.;;r S?ecific subheads should be called first before the illinister's salary, but this I \:."'10tl 1 that we have gor.e t:1raugh seventy-five bours of examination of the estitates and I suppose not ~ore than a dozen tir::es have there been sets of questions asked, .,.hat is ti1is amount for? Hhy is it higher than last year?

H:.ty does it need to be spent at all? :-That justificntion has t:C.e dnis::er got for t~e prograr.ce? Instead

2 MR. ~!.\?.Sii:\LL: we have been fed, ~r.

Speaker, ~ coopletc and absolute - ue have been enveloped uith you ~·~"'lot.: pet philosophies ~:md ·"'~at have you, There -;:as a atateoent oade in one of the papers :hat this govcrn.r:1.ent this year could have hid awa~r $3 td.ll:!.on or S4 r:lillion for a bubble gum factor; out in Isle aux :torts or sc;:;ec.:here like :hat and nobody would have noticed it. ;m. ~1EA?..Y: ~lot in Isle au:-: :!arts, ···~. ;!AR.SlL\LL: '!P.. ~·!ARSP.ALL: Sbilarly, ·.;hat else cnn be done in perception' it is quite obvious that ·"'e cannot suffer th:rough a - '"e Co not ;'l.C:hicve anyt!ling \lith a !'ifteen !'tour budget speech by the chief financial c~itic, which docs not even ~crit a quarter of a coluon of cor.:::.ent in any of t!le ?ress ~:ith respect to ",l'hat he said about the financial state of the Province, or a minute from the electronic nedia.

Now that ~s the answer. That is the answer there. !here must also, Mr. Speaker. be realization by leaders, both in and out of government,as to the situation, and these are real state~ents and they 4re matters of real urgency. It requires stringent discipline by the gove~ent here in the curtailing of all unnecessary expenses. ! liked this budget this year because it is stnrtinr; to curtail expenses.

But wit:lOut getting specific, there ;;.re other ure.::ts vhich the ;:;overn~cnt can ·.rell cut do~-n on, There are other govern:ncnt progra.-nr::es and certain athe!' e:-:penditures such as - well I uill name a fev like travellinB expenditures :md uhat have you and I do not know uhether this Province, with 500,000 people can afford the blanket available, the l~rge ~~ount of plane services that appear to ~e available, 3ut ! ~ ~ot go~ng to get off into specifics now but I am just going to point out that I think t!1erc .:1re

197: ':'-! - 3 n lot of expenCitu:es close~ to the ~one, that the gove:-:1::tent can :me! must ::take in the future, not so cuch to cut out the amount, ~ut to she~ that they ~ean business with respect to themselves so t~at then the leaders of the coremunity in the rest of ::he Province, can fully appreciate the er:tergency and trill have .1 re.1l exaJn?le to follo~.

There cannot be any pro~ises ~ade by the govern."!'tcnt. '!'here have heen too :::any ?r·:m.ises :nade by both :;;ov~rn:::e:1ts, and ir:. r.ecent tincs 1 that ;:anna~ 'Je fulf:!.ll~C. ~.J'e can:tot be pro'llisinc hosvitals if you cannot fulf' 11 hospitals and let us call a spaJa a spade and th~t is a fact. T!te r;:;:tyors, the leaders i:t eG.uca::ior., the

June 2, 1978 Taoe 3900 PK - 1 Mr. Marshall: be made to realize the plight in which we are labouring. And they have got to be able to cope with the situation, and they have not to be continually avioding their responsibility to lead, in the positions that they have been appointed or elec~ed to by transferring blame to government's failure to provide funds. And this applies with respect,as I say, to all areas. The next thing we must do, Mr. Speaker, is formulate an urgent basis in this House,a programme to retire the capital debt over a certain time frame.

Now this l-'li11 involve, obviously, a lot of sacrifices in all areas. Some progress has been made, you will see from the Budgets of this Administration that there are contributions - there are at least budgeted contributions to capital account. They call it a surplus but it is not really a surplus because capital and current has to be considered as one. But this is not on a planned basis, and it is not really taken as a top priority. Sometimes we say r1e must eat in. and we do eat into it. So we must set our sights then on capital retirement contributions. They must be substantial, and they must, Mr.

Speaker, be recognized as what they are a first charge on the Treasury of this Province with the surplus divided amongst the essential services. And that has got to be accepted by Cabinet ministers, by backbenchers, and frontbenchers, and in between, and people who want items for their districts, including the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) as he indicated that he needed money for roads in petitions that came up and they V'EY'e not being fulfilled, but there has got to be an appreciation and we have to be prepared to accept it. These capital contributions have got to be made, it needs to be said, Mr.

Speaker, without borrow