Manitoba Hansard — 4 May 1977 (Sitting 53, 30th Legislature, 4th Session)

30-4-53

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

TIME: 2:30 p.m. THE LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBL Y of MANITOBA Wednesday, May 4, 1977 OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker MR. SPEAKER, Honourable Peter Fox (Kildonan): Before we proceed I should like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery where we have 40 students, Grade 5 standing, of the Montrose School. These students are under the direction of Mr. H. Bahuaud. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for River Heights. We also have 15 students, Grade 12 standing, of the Nelson Mcl ntyre School. These students are under the direction of Mrs. Lambert.

This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for St. Vital. On behalf of all the honourable members we welcome you here this afternoon. Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees. MINIS TERIAL STATEME NTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Mines and Resources. HONOURABLE SIDNEY GREEN {lnkster): Mr. Speaker, I would like to

schedule for tomorrow, with le ave of the honourable members, a meeting of the Public Accounts Committee. The fact is that the Minister of Finance may not be there but his Legisl ative Assistant will be there and there is no other meeting scheduled for tomorrow so I'd like to do that if it is satisfactory. MR. SPEAKER: Any other Ministerial Statements or Tabling of Reports? Notices of Motion. INTRODUCTION OF BI LLS HONOURABLE IAN TURNBULL, Minister of Education (Osborne) introduced Bill (No. 52)

An Act to amend The Teachers' Pensions Act. (Recommended by His Honour the Lieutenant Governor.) ORAL QUESTI ONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. WARNER H. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct my question to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs and it is based on a news report today that the Marketing Board is being sued by Champs Chicken for al legedly selling rotten chickens to them.

I wonder if the Minister's attention has been drawn to the numerous complaints regarding the sale of rotten potatoes by the Vegetable Marketing Board to the retail outlets in this province and since the Marketing Board has a monopoly on the sale of potatoes in this province I wonder if he would investigate to find out if the reports are true? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Consumer and Corporate Affairs. HONOURABLE RENE TOUPIN (Springfield): Well, Mr. Speaker' attention was not drawn to myself in regard to rotten chickens or potatoes. lt could have been to the department directly.

I'll check and let the honourable member know. While I'm on my feet, Mr. Speaker, I had two other questions posed of me yesterday by the Member for Brandon West; the first being in regard to having people from the Department of Co operative Development directly involved with WestMan Media Co-operative. I'd like to indicate to honourable members that the department is not represented on the provisional board of the co operative. In answer to his second question, Mr. Speaker, in regard to members of the department holding membership on the board; the answer to that questio n, Mr. Speaker, is no.

No members of the Department of Co-operative Development, to my knowledge and the knowledge of my Deputy Minister, is a member of that board. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SIDNEY SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Fi rst Minister. With reference to the Western Premiers Conference, I wonder if he can indicate whether it is his intention to discuss the price of oil with the Western Premiers and to urge Alberta to restrain its request for additional money? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HONOURABLE EDWARD SCHREYER, Premier (Rossmere): Mr.

Speaker, this would not be the first time that there has been discussion on oil and natural gas and I would be very surprised if it were not discussed again. And indeed if I were to ask that they exercise restraint in pricing it wouldn't be the first time either. However, I don't think it would surprise my honourable friend if I were to say, in advance, that it is not likely that they would agree. . MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, other than a formal presentation verbally is the intention of the government to present to the Western Premiers statistics and facts that will indicate the increased 2685

Wednesday, May 4, 1977 costs to the people of Manitoba as a result of the increased price of gas and oil? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, the.quantification ofwhat is involved every time a barrel of oil increases a dollar at the wellhead is perfectly well known to the other provinces in Canada as it im pacts on their respective provinces and people. Ind eed, next Wednesday, a week today, all of the Energy Ministers of Canada will be meeting in Ottawa at which time that will be the only item on the agenda and it will be dealt with there. MR.

SPIVAK: I wonder if the First Minister can indicate why the Province of Manitoba attends such conferences. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, as was indicated at previous conferences on oil pricing we have made it known that we feel that the present procedure is not a productive one, but we attend as a matter of courtesy and in the hope that discussion has some merit. We have not been attending it under any illusion that these conferences would directly have a bearing on the decision-making with respect to oil and natural gas.

That, Sir, in the final analysis is a decision that is made as between the producing provinces and the Government of Canada. Ind eed, it is my understanding further, that if the Government of Canada were to exercise the same kind of sense of national policy as in the United States, then it would be perfectly in order for the Government of Canada to take decisions, with respect to fossil fuel pricing that would be parallel to that of the United States, which is to say, one price for new oil and one price for old oil.

We have urged that on the Government of Canada as well, recommending it for adoption as national policy. MR. SPIVAK: To the First Minister, why is Manitoba then being a party to something that obviously they can't influence at all? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, if one were to follow my honourable friend's petulant and childish advice we would stay home, but in the meantime the invitation goes to all ten provinces and thus far, all ten attend. If they were to be of a more petulant mind, like my honourable friend, he would stay home and sulk I suppose. MR.

SPEAKER: The honourable member has had four questions on this topic. The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. HENRY J. EINARSON: Mr. Speaker, I direct this question to the Minister of Agriculture and I would like to ask him if he has had any correspondence indicating his views on behalf of this government as it relates to the federal legislation dealing with the metric system on measurements of grain and land in the Province of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Agriculture. HONOURABLE SAMUEL USKIW (Lac du Bonnet): Mr.

Speaker, I am not certain, but I don't believe there has been any amount of correspondence. There may have been one or two inquiries, but I don't recall anything more. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that farmers are opposed to this legislation would the Minister care to indicate his position or that of his department and his government as it affects the farmers of this province. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, the rules do not provide for opinions, I don't believe, but I am willing to tell my honourable friend that whatever is deemed appropriate, on the part of the Government of Canada, we will co-operate with. MR. EINARSON: In other words, Mr. Speaker, I don't want to be too technical, but do I understand the Minister to say that the Federal Government has the full approval of the Government of Manitoba insofar as the legislation before the House as it affects the metric system on dealing with the measurements of grain and land in this province? MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, I am advising the Member for Rock Lake that they are better equipped to deal with that problem than we are here. MR. SPEAKER: The Member for Rock Lake final question. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Speaker, I direct another question, I believe it would be to the Attorney General, as it affects the Land Acquisition Department. Could the Minister indicate to the members of this House as to what the cost would probably be in dealing with the transfer of measurements of land from acres to hectares in this province? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, with respect to metrification in Canada, I think my honourable friend is aware that there is some attempt being made by all of the provinces to attemptto co-ordinate with the Government of Canada with respect to metrification. There is some difficulty with respectto target date, but the real point of my rising, Mr. Speaker, is to suggest to my honourable friend, the Member for Rock Lake, that if he has representations to make with respect to metrification that Jack Horner has been known to express himself on this subject.

Now that he is in the Cabinet of the Government of Canada, I suggest seriously and non-facetiously that he address his interest to Mr. Horner. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. LLOYD AXWORTHY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Consumer 2686

Wednesday, May 4, 1977 Affairs. Can the Minister report to the House whether the Consumers Bureau is involved in a credit or tenant rating system sponsored by the Manitoba Landl ords Association and does the Credit Bureau play any

part in the administ ration of that tenant rating system? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Consumer and Corporate Affairs. HONOURABLE RENE TOUPIN (Springfield): No, Mr. Speaker, we have no invol vement in regard to the tenant rating. I only received a copy last evening, when I spoke to them at the International Inn with the Member for Lakeside, of the form that they are circulati ng. But I wasn't aware and to my knowledge my officials are not involved. MR. AXWORTHY: A supple mentary, Mr. Speaker.

Can the Minister indicate whether the statements made by a representative of the Landlor ds Association that these forms are being used to intimidate tenants can be verified and is his Consumer Bureau planning to examine that particular statement to determine whether, in fact, these forms are being used as a form of intimidatio n. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker, I have had no such complaints, personal ly.

I'll check with my staff and if there is reason to bel ieve that tenants are being intimidated by those forms or what follo ws through once the data is given, certainl y we'll take whatever steps need to be taken to protect the interest of both parties. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BOB BAN MAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I direct my question to the Minister ofTourism and would ask him if he could inform the House as to what the estimated cost to the government-owned Venture Tours will be of getting the Lord Selkirk out of the mud? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Tourism and Recreation. HONOURABLE BEN HANUSCHAK (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, at the present time we do not know the exact amount of work that may be necessary to move it from its present location. The cost may be relatively minimal but this we are in no position to know at this point in time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. ARNOLD BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Health and Social Development.

Due to continuing reports and complaints of serious under-staffing and other difficulties regarding psychiatric care in Manitoba, can the Minister now tell this House whether he will have a full investigation into the problems of mental health in Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Health. HONOURABLE LAURENT L. DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, the time for that is during the Estimates. This was discussed at the time. I don't intend to restart my Estimate over again. MR. BROWN: On a different topic to the same Minister.

Can the Minister tel l this House when he expects the first Wilderne ss Camp to be in operation in Manitoba? MR. DESJARDINS: I also answered that question during the Estimates, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. MORRIS McGREGOR: Mr. Speaker, I direct this question to the Fi rst Minister and it has to do with Fire Danger Still High, Rain Needed by Farms, Rain, Lightning Mixed Ble ssing.

In view of the continuing drought throughout the province, would the First Minister be willing to ask the Minister of Public Works to hold more official openings of his Solar Energy Project, with the punch, since it seems to be the onl y recent progressive thing that brings relief to the drought, it having rained off and on since yesterday's official opening. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, I agree entirely with the sentiments of my honourable friend and would suggest that everytime he sees fit to suggest to the Minister of Public Works that he have another inaugural of his solar demonstration unit, if there is any chance at all that it will rain, I would hope that he will ask for that at least once a week. MR. McGREGOR: Then a supplementary. This not meant to be parochial. Would the First Minister consider making this solar project portable so I ... MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, I would think that that is onl y fair and reasonable, and I would suggest that as this is put on a mobi le basis, that the Honourable Member for Virden should assist the Minister of Public Works to buy a home in Virden and also in -(Interjection)- in Kenton, that's the one, yes. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Health and Social Development.

Can he report to the House whether he has received a deposition from the care homes which indicate that there has been a major withdrawal of services of personal care homes in the province, and that they are requesting an increase in per diem? Does he plan to meet with this organization to discuss this withdrawal and to increase their per diems? it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. · MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of any request from them. l will haveto checkon MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. 2687

Wednesday, May 4, 1977 MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I direct my question to the Honourable the Minister of Labour. Could· tl:le.Minister inform the House if he or any rnembers·Gfhis department are taking an active

part in trying to settle the Griffin Steel strike? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HONOURABLE RUSSELL PAULLEY (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Labour has been attempting to resolve that issue since January of 1975, when it first arose. The Minister of Labour and members of his staff have had no less than 24 meetings with the parties concerned, and are prepared now or at any time to attempt to have further discussions between the parties concerned on the process of free collect ive bargaining.

Unfortunately as of this present moment, to my knowledge no meetings are being held between the parties. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Another question to the same Minister, Mr. Speaker. Can the Minister inform the House when the last meeting was held when the department representative and representatives of the union and the management had met? When was the last meeting? MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, if my honourable friend in the Assembly wi 11 not hold me rigid ly to a precise date, which will be subject to confirmation, I believe that the last meaningful meeting was held less than 30 days ago. ORDERS OF TH E DAY MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I have a message from His Honour. MR. SPEAKER: The Lieutenant-Governor transmits to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, Estimates of further sums required for the Services of the Province for the Current Expenditures for the fiscal year ending the 31st of March, 1978, and recommends these Estimates to the Legislative Assembly.

The Lieutenant-Governor transmits to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, Estimates of further sums required for the Services of the Province for Capital Expenditures for the fiscal year ending the 31st of March, 1978, and recommends these Estimates to the Legislative Assembly. The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, pursuant to the foregoing, I move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Labour, that the said message together with the Estimates accompanying same be referred to Committee of Supply. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Attorney-General, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider oft he Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried, and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, with the Honourable Member for Logan in the Chair. COMM ITTEE OF SUPPLY - SPECIAL PROGRAM MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. William Jenkins (Logan): The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Mr. Chairman, it is proposed to deal with the matters being presented by the First Minister, to start with the Committee's proceedings. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman, on the 22nd of April on the occasion of the bringing down of the Budget by the Minister of Finance, he indicated then that within approximately ten days or so, that the government would be introducing a large-scale Job Creation Program and I can now advise the House of at least the basic parts and details of the said program today.

But before doing so, I think it is important to review some of the developments over the last few months which have made it essential for the province to introduce special employment measures such as we are now proposing at this time. The principal problem in our view has been the failure of the Government of Canada to meet its responsibilities in the face of what has been described by some as one of the worst unemployment situations that Canada has experienced since the thirties.

To be fair, there is some argument that the unemployment situation was slightly differently measured in 1958; 1959 and 1960, certainly compares with today, but I don't propose to comment further as to whether the unemployment situation in Canada today is worse than, the same as, or not quite as bad as it was in 1958, 1959 and 1960. Suffice it to say that it is at a level that should be regarded as unacceptable by all concerned and fair-minded Canadians. The issue of responsibilit y cannot be emphasized too strongly.

Although provincial governments can and should play a significant role in job creation, the ultimate responsibility for dealing with the economy in a counter-cyclical fashion is that of Canada as a whole since it possesses the major instruments of fiscal and monetary policy. With the actual national unemployment rate running over nine percent in Canada it would be an understatement to say that the March 31 Federal Budget was 2688

Wednesday, May 4, 19 77 disappointing. Instead of taking action on a meaningful scale, meaningful in relation to the country to create jobs, the Federal Government announced only relatively small increases in support for direct employment programs and decided to place most of its emphasis on tax concessions for larger corporations and investors.

Even if one does not wish to argue the efficacy of that approach, at least one would think that there could be agreement quite apart from the merits of that approach that there is an unacceptably long time lag for that to have any bearing on the circumstances of unemployment in the different regions of Canada this spring and summer. Therefore, it is with skepticism that we listened to the Federal Government's argument that it could not take further action because to do so might touch off another round of inflation.

Unfortunately, that argument ignores the fact that the Canadian economy is now operating - we are told - at something like 20 percent under capacity. As my colleague, the Minister of Fi nance said the other day, federal inaction has left us here in Manitoba in what could be described as a "go-it-alone" situation, at least for the period of the next four or five months.

I am venturing to say, although I have no proofto offer, that I still believe that the Government of Canada will be introducing a special ad hoc Budget in October, or sometime in the autumn, in order to come to grips with the levels of unemployment that prevail today even though for some inexplicable reason, it has chosen to leave that aside between April and October. And so our proposal really has to do with the assumption that some major significant- be it ad hoc- Budget measures will be brought in by Canada in the autumn.

Although the unemployment rate in our province remains the third lowest in Canada and significantly below the national average, nevertheless the jobless total particularly among certain groups such as young people and womenfolk in the labour force is at a level which we cannot regard as acceptable. Therefore, we believe it is our responsibility to take action as quickly as possible to deal with this phenomenon. The groundwork for our government's special employment program was laid down in the recent Budget. In contrast to the budgets of some of the neighbouring provinces, our Budget contains no tax increases.

In fact, as members are aware, we were able to introduce a number of tax-reduction measures, measures which will mean an average reduction of about $120 per family in 1977. On the income tax side alone, the reductions will total about $44 million. This does not include our share of the costs of certain of the federal personal and corporate tax deductions which were announced in Ottawa's Budget at the end of March. We estimate the cost in revenue terms for Manitoba of matching those federal reductions at an additional $10 million. As I have already suggested, Mr.

Chairman, tax reductions alone are not sufficient; and even if sufficient in the long run, are not appropriate in the short run in coping with a problem which in many ways is clear and present and with us now. The most effective method of ensuring job creation on a significant scale and the shortest possible lead time is through a direct employment program. Direct job creation measures have demonstrated their value on occasions in the past in Canada and in other countries of the free world. They do put people into a job situation with as short a delay as possible.

They do help, by degree at least, to reduce the cost of social assistance and other transfer payments.

They do put money into circulation via the unemployed, and generally speaking, via those on somewhat lower income, and in that way stimulating the economy and indirectly assisting business therefore, through purchasing power and purchase orders and hel ping every person who is already employed indi rectly in that fashion; and at the same time as doing this, helping to provide additional municipal and community buildings, infrastructure or enhancing services through additional service personnel in hospitals, nursing homes, day-care centres and related humanitarian services.

They guarantee that the work which is done will be directed towards higher priority socially useful iJUrposes. I am prepared to contend that direct employment programs to the extent we have attempted it in the past, have served us well here. Indeed right now, several such are already under way.

The Manitoba Special Municipal Forgiveable Loans Fund which was introduced in 1972 has had a significant practical effect during the past four years, not only in providing employ ment, but also in making it possible for municipalities to build recreation facilities, to pave roads, upgrade senior citizen centres and to construct much needed municipal infrastructure. Nearly the entire amount of $14 million allocated in the first round of the Forgiveable Loans Fund has been committed.

About a month ago, I announced on behalf of my colleagues a second round of the program with $1 0 mil lion allocated for projects which could be completed before March 31, 1979, with an additional $5 million bringing it up to $15 mill ion with respect to a three-year round ending March 31, 1980. Numerous applications have already been received and more are being received daily at the Provincial Job Office.

In December, 1976, in recognition of the unemployment situation in the core area of Winnipeg, the province initiated an Inner-City Employme nt Program also oriented to provide the impetus for lon g-term employment with an initial budget of $1 million. Approximately 30 projects have been approved or are in the process of being reviewed. 2689

Wednesday, May 4, 1977 Then of course, although it is not explicitly included here, the Criticial Home Repair Program remainsJn e.tfect;.providing both jobs and impr-oved housing for pensieners and others with low and moderate incomes through a combination of loans and grants. In the 20-month period from September 1975, when the Pensioner Home Repair Program was expanded into a larger setting, Critical Home Repair Program , to April of this year, over 14,000 applications have been received. Of these this 14 ,000, 8,000 have already been approved with an expenditure of about $7.1 million.

Critical repairs in order of frequency include roofing, insulation, heavy construction, windows and doors, heating, wiring, eavestroughing and really a much wider, less frequent, broader category of repairs to older houses which are perfectly habitable if given timely repair. lt is estimated that about 175 appli cations are received weekly. At the conclusion of this statement, I will table Supplementary Expenditure Estimates to provide up to a further $33.5 million for job creation this year.

The program, I must point out, will be in two stages, or phases, since we cannot presume to so finely tune and second-guess the activity of the economy as a whole, both in the province and in the national context. Accordingly, we are proceeding with Phase I which is a matter of commitment and the balance of $13 million of the $33 million is being requested as authority, and being held, however, on short-term reserve until such time as we can obtain a further reading in May, and even early June, before committing if necessary to commit, the remaining $13 milli on.

On that basis then, we are proposing, within the context of Phase I of this program, $500,000 additional for the Inner City Employment Program; an additional $1 mill ion will be made available to the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation to renovate existing public housing stock - I might add that it is understood and expected to receive federal cost-sharing in the normal way for this item - $2 million will be allocated for a departmental Job Creation Program in recognition of the unemployment situation among students, in particular, and young people, even though non-student, they may be non-students perhaps.

A number of departments of government, not all but a number of departments of government, such as Highways, _Tourism and Recreation, Public Works, will hire up to 1000 such younger persons on a three to four month basis. This component of the Job Creation Program is intended to recognize the seriousness of unempl oyment, particularly among young women and other youth between the ages of 17 to 24. This, I might add, is in addition to the regular Student Temporary Employment Program which has been formally underway in this province for some time.

Two million dollars will be provided for local government, that is to say municipal or local government improvements, as judged by them at the local level as having priority, and community clean-up projects. This will finance grants to municipalities up to a maximum of $20,000 to employ persons to repair and renovate municipally-owned facilities and extend municipal services. Persons must be employed for a minimum of three months. The spruce-up or clean-up component provides up to a maximum of $2.00 per capita for a variety of such ancillary and related programs.

Two million dollars will be available for institutional employment and by this I mean through the Manitoba Hospital Commission, Public School Finance Board, grants will be available to hospitals, school districts -you can think in terms as well of nursing homes and day care centres-to employ persons for a minimum of three months to extend a variety of services provided by these institutions, as well as upgrade facilities. An amount in the order of $1 milli on-32 million will be allocated to the Department of Agriculture for special measures relative to the current drought situation and other areas of concern.

I may add, although it hardly needs stating the obvious, that this amount may have to be further increased should major scale transfer of feed or of cattle to emergency unfenced pasture or grazing lands prove to be necessary. I refer to the combination of transportation, and the logistics involved with that, of emergency fencing and the labour that is involved with that or the possibility of a combination of fencing and cattle tending. If any honourable gentlemen opposite wish to enrol! in a crash course in how to ride and rope and lasso, then we are providing funds here to cover such eventualities. Mr.

Chairman, I say it admittedly in a bantering way, but who knows but that indeed we may unfortunately have to get serious about the possibility of making all kinds of contingency arrangements which, for the moment, may seem almost amusing and hopefully completely unnecessary. I go on now to make reference also to a provision of funds for the acceleration of capital works projects since the timing of capital works, principally through the Department of Public Works, has been such as to try to proceed on a more normal measured pace.

There is, nevertheless, capacity to advance some of the more major construction given that architectural design and planning have been taking place on a contingency basis for shelving for future eventuality. To this, we allocate an amount in the order of $6 million. In addition, $2 million will be allocated for community and local private, non-profit organization sponsored projects. This component will provide grants for community organizations to employ persons in such areas as maintenance, clean-up, minor renovation to recreation facilities, senior 2690

Wednesday, May 4, 19 77 citizen and other services. Three million dollars will be requested to finance a Special Incentive Program for small business. This component will provide assistance to employ one or two persons to small business in Manitoba with less than 50 employees, with the emphasis to those employing 20 persons or less, in the first stage. The maximum provincial assistance will be $250 per man-month up to a maximum of $1 ,000 per person thus employed in the period between May and October.

The objective is to provide employment opportunity for school leavers and other unemployed youth and, indeed, another group we must not forget, those who would be in the age category of 55 and over. This is indicative guidelines and not to be interpreted as rigid. Also, we hope that this can relate in, at least small modest way, to the possibility of bringing together the needs of small business in terms of ancillary or additional help or manpower with those I have mentioned but also including the handicapped and others having difficulty finding employment.

Eligibility guidelines have been established and will be included with the application forms and informational brochures which will be made available through the Department of Industry and Commerce in the first instance. Further details of these programs will be available through the provincial job office and, as I have just . finished saying, in the case of small business, assistance program from the Department of Industry and Commerce. As was noted in the Budget, the target time frame for the overall program is the period from mid May through mid-September and, this too, is indicative and not rigid.

I already explained as well that our 1977 Special Employment program will be in two phases. The first phase involving expenditures of about $20 million will begin, so to speak, almost immediately. For the second phase, we are proposing a requested contingency allowance of $13 .5 million. This second phase, I emphasize again, may or may not be required at all. But, of course, without the authority, it is impossible to proceed on that kind of backup capacity to meet contingency basis.

The decision as to whether or not to proceed with the second phase of the program will be made, and can be made, in early June when the unemployment data for May are released, and when there is further insight into the unfold ing of the Canadian economy's performance going into the prime season, or into the Canadian summer. Because of the timing of the labour force survey, the figures for May which are published in June, are not li kely to reflect the impact of the first phase of our special efforts here which I am just detailing.

Nevertheless, this data should provide useful information on the underlying employment trends as we enter into the summer. In addition, by mid-June we should also have available a prelimi nary assessment of the first phase of our program, and a clear picture of the initial response to the various components. And, here I again pause to add simply this, that while we are reasonably sure of the efficacy of each of the components, for some there may be a far better response and practical implementation than for others, which is yet another reason for having this division into phases I and 11.

Contrary to what some members opposite may have tried to suggest in recent days, these will be productive jobs, tangible jobs, and a significant number of these, we hope, will be in the private sector. In addition there will be a substantial stimulative effect for business, through the extra wages and related expenditures which this program will generate through the so-called multiplier effect. Of course we aren't certain of the extent of the so-called multiplier effect, but it exists.

The $33 million total Supplementary Expenditure Authority required for the two phases of our Special Employment Program will be not perfectly, but fairly evenly, divided, as between Current and Capital Accounts; $16 .5 million of this amount will be in Current Expenditures, or Current Accounts, and $17 million to the Capital Authority requirements for 1977-78. We feel that this is a manageable amount and one which is appropriate, given the current economic circumstances in the country and the province. We anticipate no great difficulties in financing the Job Creation Program.

We expect that the economic activity it will generate will yield added revenues to reduce the size of the deficit during the year. Clearly this is viewed from certain perspectives, an investment in the future of our province, an investment that will pay div idends in the form of new jobs and also divid ends in the form of new or improved or enhanced facilities.

And certainly, in the short run, enhancement of services, which short run, we hope, will be replaced by a different and more favourable climate in Canada and, if necessary, that brought about by some auxiliary effort, special effort, by Canada by means of a special budget in the autumn of this year. In the months ahead we will be monitoring the unemployment situation as best we can.

A few weeks ago, and this is the basis for my saying what I said, with respect to an autumn budget, the Federal Government stated that if the national situation had not improved by fall it would consider taking special action at that time. In the meantime the Province of Manitoba will be pressing the federal authorities on this point and will urge that it announce its intentions at the earliest possible opportunity to permit rational planning and optimum co-ordination between federal-provincial job creation measures. 2691

Wednesday, May 4, 1977 We will be assessing our own program in light oft he federal response. We believe Ottawa will want to make a choic e to live up to its responsibility more fully at thattime. However, if it does not, we here in Manitoba remain prepared to take whatever action we reasonably can to protect the incomes and the jobs of the citizens of our province, and to attempt to keep Manitoba at employment levels which in proportion will be among the best in Canada. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Resolution before the House. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. STERLING LYON (Souris-Killarney): Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.! think we would firstwantto thank the First Minister for the general outline and statement that he has just given the House with respect to the Supplementary Estimates that were tabled today, the Special Employment Program, 1977, $1 6,500,000 in Current appropriations, and under the same title and designation, $17 million in the Capital Supply, for a total of $33,500,000, because we do not, of course, have in front of us, Mr. Chairman, the statement that the First Minister has just read to us.

I hope the Committee will understand why we cannot make a full and substantive response to the First Minister at this stage, but will reserve the right, as we understand the arrangements have been made, that this item will be brought up again at the beginning of Supply for the next day or so, or whatever arrangement the House Leaders make, in order that we can make more definitive comments at that time. However, I would not want the occasion to pass, Mr.

Chairman, without acknowledging first of all what has stimulated the First Minister to make this program announcement today, as forecasted by his colleague, the Minister of Finance, in the Budget of some ten or twelve days ago.

The unemployment situation in Manitoba, while not, as the First Minister has indicated, out of lin e with that of other provinces in Canada, indeed better than many of the provinces in Eastern Canada, is still a matter of concern to the 32,000 or more who are presently unemployed in Manitoba as we enter into a period when we can expect the labour force to increase by virtue of the post-secondary institutions emptying out, the augmentation of the work force by more women coming into the work force, and the other demographic features that now interplay with respect to the manpower and job creation dynamics in this province and other provinces in Canada.

We thank the Minister for the outline that he has given us, and we thank him for, as well, Mr. Chairman, and I would imagine that all members on this side of the House would agree, that the concern that he manifests in his statement is shared by all members House. Where we may well have some point of disagreement is in the method by which that concern is best treated by government.

On that, I am sure, the question will not be decided in this debate, or indeed in subsequent debates during this session of the Legislature, or perhaps indeed, until such time as there have been some more fundamental changes in the outlooks of governments, not only here, but indeed right across the country, and in particular at the national level. So we acknowledge the problem.

We give credit to the First Minister for the stimulus that he feels will be provided by some of the programs that he has announced, some of which we favour, some of which, on the other hand, we think will fall into the category, regrettably, of short-term panaceas to what is essentially a long-term problem.

I would not want it to be thought, however, that any government, regardless of what its political stripe may be, can sit back at this particular time in the history of our country and be oblivious to the fact that the growing numbers of unemployed do not create an economic situation in this country which it is the obligation of government to try to meet and to try to deal with in concert with the private sector of the economy, which of course is the great job creator on the national scene and indeed on the provincial scene as well.

And if we were to have any blanket criticism of the measures that have just been announced by the First Minister it would be that that factor is perhaps not underlined nor indeed, Mr. Chairman, understood by the First Minister and his coll eagues as deeply as it should be. We do not suggest for a moment that any government on the fourth day of May in the year of Our Lord 1977 can emerge with a three or four-month program that is going to deal fundamentally with the long-term problem which this country has faced over a good number of years. A long-term problem, Mr.

Chairman, I have to say which has been contributed to by a good number of the measures that have been fostered by the government opposite, in conjunction with a number of wrongheaded measures that have been utilized by the Federal Government, in their alm ost slavish adherence to rather out-worn doctrines such as the Keynesian doctrine and the more recent variations thereon prepounded by such great novelists as John Kenneth Galbraith, a novelist who from time to time tries to portray himself as an economist without too much success, either to those who read him or to those who slavishly follow his particular philosophy.

That is part of the problem that besets the Canadian economy today and part of the reason why, in the statement that has just been made by the First Minister, there is this - and it will bear further reading - but there appears to be this failure to come to grips with the underlying problem facing the national, and the provincial economy as well. The measures that the First Minister has announced, and I don't claim to have marked them all down because he did announce them in fairly rapid order, a $500,000 program as I heard it, for the 2692

Wednesday, May 4, 1977 core area in the City of Winnipeg. We would of course want to hear more elucidation as to what that involves; whether it is government buildings; whether it is part of a home repair program; what the nature of that is. If that elucidation was in the First Minister's remarks, I did not hear it. The $1 million to MHRC is understood.

The $2 million to local government improvements such as clean-up and so on will be helpful on a short-term basis albeit, but again does not meet that test of providing those long-term productive jobs in the private sector which give stability to the kind of job opportunity that is being sought by our young people in this country today. Two million dollars to the Department of Agriculture for drought combatting programs; I'm happy to hear that announced by the Fi rst Minister. We have been asking for a program of this sort for the past several weeks.

We only wish that it could have been included in the Estimates of the Department of Agriculture when they were brought before the House, as a contingency item to meet the drought condition which was manifest long before the fourth of May oft his year. I don't think there can be any doubt whatsoever that that kind of ad hoc program that is necessary to meet and to assist the problems faced by the agricultural industry- which is the biggest business in Manitoba, bar none will be welcomed in all sectors of the economy in Manitoba because as agriculture goes in Manitoba indeed so goes the economy of Manitoba.

And we realize, as does the First Minister, that no government can be expected to do anything terribly meaningful with respect to the cereal grain farmers or those who are in areas where they are not capable of irrigating cash crops, and so on. This may be a matter of levity, Mr. Chairman, for the Minister of Public Works who seldom moves outside of Elmwood, I want to assure him in the House it's not a matter of levity to any people in the agricultural community in Manitoba, as the Fi rst Minister indicated. Mr.

Chairman, these programs - and we hope and pray that it will not be necessary for the government to augment them - but these programs do go part of the way to meeting the kind of crisis situation that many of our farm producers are in at the present time and certainly are welcome.

I would hope as well, and I know it's on the agenda for the conference that the First Minister will be attending tomorrow and the following day with his counterparts from the western provinces, to see to what extent we can concert the drought assistance programs as they apply across the prairie provinces, in order to e!1sure that surpluses, for instance, of forage that are available in Saskatchewan and/or Alberta, in portions of those provinces where they may have had more generous rainfall or precipitation than we have had, that there be that kind of concerted co-operative arrangement arranged among the provinces in order that we can fight off the plight of the drought on a co-operative regional basis as best possible.

And I'm sure that the First Minister will approach that topic on the agenda with that kind of co-operative arrangement in mind. The $6 million capital building project; we will have to, again, read the Fi rst Minister's statementto see what is involved here. One would hope, however, that this would not involve the building of more government offices for more government staff or for the parking of more government cars.

One would hope that this kind of capital construction should be going into longer-term productive facilities in the Province of Manitoba that are needed, perhaps at the municipal level, or at the community level, more so than to augment the al ready bloated government building program that we have in this province and the already outlandishly large government hiring program which has been a hallmark of this government's policy since it came to office.

The $2 million provided for private non-profit groups in Manitoba employing maintenance and clean-up; again we will want further amplification as to just what that program means. But again there is the suggestion, at first blush, that it has a very termporary make-work nature to it rather than attacking the fundamentals of the problem, which is to provide long-term employment of a productive nature. This has the aura somewhat, of winter works programming to it.

And while it may be a temporary respite over the summer, I'm sure the First Minister would be the first to agree that that is something like taking an aspirin for a brain tumour. What we have to have is longer term meaningful prog rams that are stimulative of the real job producing part of our economy- the small business portion of the private sector in particular.

We see the mention that is made for special incentives to small business people or small business groups employing less than 50 persons. lt sounds, again, at first blush something like the program that was enunciated in the Budget of the Province of Ontario.

I will surprise my honourable friends opposite by saying that I do not believe that that is the best type of programming; that is the direct funding or subsidization of salaries out of the public taxpayers contribution to the Treasury in order to provide, again, a hot-house type of stimulation on a very temporary basis to this kind of employment in the private sector.

Much more encouraging for small business would have been a change, which I know is not possible but we always strive for the ideal, a change in the attitude of this governmenttowards small business- toward the growth of small business- realizing the role-of small business in, Manitoba as a prime employer of young people. One would want to hear as well, Mr. Chairman, and we would hope that in the course ofthe debate on the Supplementary Supply , we _'!'l!ould he_ar w_!lat sort of bureaucracy it will be necessary to 2693

Wednesday, May 4, 1977 establish to run the different programming operations that the government has announced today.

And I realize there is a penchant to gain on behalf of my honourable friends opposite, to think that increases in thestaffofthe public sector are really desirable, but I suggest that this is not a productive form of occupation for this kind of programming on a short-term basis and would hope thatthe kind of administrative staff, which is what I am talking about, the kind of administrative staff that is necessary to oversee the various programming thrusts that are mentioned by the First Minister here could be kept to a minimum and, hopefully, there could be utilized existing staff within the departments of Industry and Commerce as I believe was intimated in the remarks of the Minister of Finance at the time his Budget was brought down.

If that be the case, then my honourable friends opposite will receive nothing but applause from this side of the House, if their effort is to restrain the growth of the public side of employment in Manitoba. lhe First Minister's comment about the second phase of the program of 13.5 million being determined in early June- we will have to wait, of course, and see what the statistics bear at that time.

I would suggest to him, however, that in the consideration of the first phase, and as well the second phase, if they find it necessary to go into a second phase, that there should be more consideration given to the upgrading and the improving of the provincial road system in Manitoba which is in a dreadful state at the present time. There is a piece of the infrastructure of this province that has been abandoned by this government over the past ten years.

There is an area· where they found in British Columbia when the present government assumed office after three and a half years of a socialist government, that they found that that important part of the infrastructure of the province and even in that short of a period, had been disregarded.

And I suggest that with benefit to all parts of Manitoba, the improvements that are needed in the provincial road system in particular, the u pg rad i ng of our provincial trunk highway system and the enhancement and the improvement of that provincial trunk highway system would be meaningful additions to the public plant of Manitoba which would under-gird the productive part of our economy, particularly the agricultural part; would be job creating in thems.e!V.f!s and would provide the kind of stimulus at this time that would be helpful both to the economy and to the unemployment problem that we face at the present time.

I would ask as well, Mr. Chairman, that the First Minister and his colleagues should give equal consideration to the improvement and to the carrying out of a number of water conservation projects that have been lying dormant on the desks of some of his Ministers for the last number of years because they apparently do not hold too great a priority with my honourable friends in whatever their particular social thrust may be in this province.

I would suggest that this again would be an important addition to the- to use the bureaucrat's favorite word- the infrastructure of this province in order to enhance the major water control projects that were put into place in the 1960s, such as the Red River Floodway, the Portage Diversion, the Shell mouth Dam. That was not the end of the need for conservation or water control in Manitoba. Indeed, that was the major beginning.

What has been needed since is emphasis by government and some priority by government with respect to continuing the smaller, but equally vital regional water control and conservation measures on the Souris River, the Pembilier Dam and many many others that are as greatly needed today as they were when they were conceived by joint co-operative ventures between t,he then Federal Government and the Provincial Government and the plans for which still exist and could be carried out with a minimum of new engineering requirements but with emphasis being directed to them from the capital side.

So I would hope that the First Minister would give that kind of consideration to that kind of priority; to meaningful additions to the provincial plant that would be tremendously helpful to the provincial product and to industry, and to the farm community and to all sectors of our economy in Manitoba. I would hope as well, Mr. Speaker, that there would be an opportunity within this kind of job creation program for consideration to be given to much neglected northern projects, such as a new recreational area for the town of Thompson.

This is precisely the kind of program that can add to the needs of our communities in Manitoba. -(Interjection)- I know my honourable friend, the Minister of Highways, very seldom goes north of Dauphin, in fact he very seldom goes to Dauphin, but I want to assure him there are other places in Manitoba beside Winnipeg.

If my honourable friend is under any misapprehensions as to what the people of Thompson would like to see done in terms of an addition to the areas that they need for recreational habitat, not only for them but for the tourist industry which I know is not a great factor in my honourable friend's inbred consideration, but we do need that kind of infrastructure built in the north to accommodate first of all our people, whom we try to keep in the north; and secondly to make those facilities available to tourists- tourist industry, even though the Minister is unaware of it, being one oft he important industries in this province which needs continual advancement.

So I would hope -(Interjection)- Well, there we are, Mr. Chairman, back to the: "How much did we do in the Sixties?" This government apparently has to be constantly reminded, Mr. Chairman, that they have been in office for eight long, painful years-painful for the people of Manitoba, and instead now of saying, "what did we do in 1965 or 1962" or anything of historical interest like that, when the province was progressing, I think it's about time they got down to looking to what they are prepared 2694

Wednesday, May 4, 1977 to do in 19 77 to meet the problems of today rather than trying to bathe themselves or slough-off their current day problems in recalls from the past which are of no particurar benefit to them, although any time they want to debate it, I'm quite happy to debate it with them, because that's a record that any government could be proud of. I realize that we're having trouble. I realize, Mr. Chairman, that we're having trouble dragging some of our honourable friends opposite kicking and screaming into the Eighties, but we're going to do it in any case. Mr.

Chairman, this program, some of the features of which as I have said are capable of applause, some of the features of which I think the First Minister and his colleagues will wish to give some further consideration to, and other features which perhaps have not been mentioned. But some that I have mentioned today have another impact that we should all be aware of, and that is the impact, of course, of inc reasing the public expenditure in Manitoba at a time when all governments should be looking toward the holding of the line in government expenditure.

By quick calculation, one would have to say that this will place the total spending somewhere in excess now of a 10 to 11 percent increase over last year. I'm sure the Honourable First Minister was aware of that when he brought the program down.

I repeat only what I said some ten days ago in this House that it would not have been difficult, I would have thought, for a government to have included this kind of programming within its Budget so that the Budget Debate that has just concluded would have been a Budget Debate on the real deficit, on the real expenditures of the government rather than the boot dropping that we've been going through - like living in a room of an octopus.

We don't know how many more boots are going to be dropped by this government with respect to further expenditures, whether they be by way of further supplementaries, whether they be by way of special warrant after the House has adjourned and that particular avenue of expenditure is again open to the government.

But we think it would not be responsible if we did not point out at this time, and I'm sure the First Minister is aware of it, that we would hope that there can be some prudence maintained with respect to the normal operations of government under the ambit of his responsibility and that of the Minister of Finance to ensure that we are extracting as much of the programming dollars as are possible for the program that he has announced today- irom within existing revenues and from within existing programs within the government in order to make sure that we are ringing the last cent of value out of the taxpayer's dol lar, the taxpayer being the one who has to fund this mammoth operation.

And so that there be no misunderstanding about it, Mr.

Chairman, because we've dealt with this in the Public Accounts Committee, we've dealt with it in the Budget Address and so on, the grossed-up value, the grossed-up dollar figure for public expenditures this year, without using the new bookkeeping system that my honourable friends have, that is, of deducting municipal tax, deducting cost of living and deducting the rebate program from the personal income tax and not showing that as an expenditure- about which we can talk again and will talk again on another time - the actual gross expenditures of this government in the 1977 Budget stated on the old basis are $1 ,292,600,000.

We are, by this program today, adding at least $17 million more on current supply to that figure thereby taking us well over $1 ,300,000,000; and notwithstanding the bookkeeping and the foot noting and so on that has been going on in the way the Estimates are presented this year, and the Estimates of revenue as well, I would want the people of Manitoba, as I am sure the Fi rst Minister would, the people of Manitoba to realize that the Budget of Manitoba this year is now in excess of $1.3 billion on current account.

And it is in that vein that we say to the First Minister that he has an obligation, which I am sure he is aware of, to make sure that that money is spent as prudently as possible in all of the areas, desirable or otherwise, that this government has seen to move its particular thrust. Now, Mr. Chairman, we are going to see an inc rease in the labour force in Manitoba in June or July of about 20,000 people, perhaps even as high as 30,000. All of the predictions today for student employment are gloomy.

Not only in Manitoba - let's be fair about that- not only in Manitoba but right across the country, and therefore a large number I think, notwithstanding make work programs, notwithstanding what has been announced by the First Minister today, a large number can be expected to be unemployed for at least a part of the summer, and I think that the First Minister would admit that a program creating 3,000to 5,000 jobs, beneficial as it is and helpful as it is and welcome as it is, is not again going to the root of the problem to meet the longterm job creation and job opportunity requirements that this province has at the present time.

Mr.

Chairman, one could go on and deal at some considerable length with what really does afflict the economy in this country today, and Manitoba is being afflicted by it along with all other provinces in Canada. 1 would merely commend to the Fi rst Minister's reading, and I'm sure that he has seen it, the Annual Report of the Bank Credit Analyst in which they did a diagnosis of the Canadian economy, of which we are a part, and in which they indi cated with that kind of a balanced view that is sometimes brought by outside observers, just what has been happening to the Canadian economy and some of the remedies that are necessary if we are going as Canadians- and I'm speaking now on a national basis - if we're going as Canadians to get ourselves out of the kind of economic bind 2695

Wednesday, May 4, 1977 that we are in at the present time. I think some of the quotations from that report would be helpful.

As the First Minister goes to a regional meeting of western Premiers, and as the Minister of Finance is engaged, as I believe he is today, at a national meeting of Ministers of Finance, one would hope that some of these comments- not all of which we may agree with but they are observations on what has gone wrong with the Canadian economy- some of these comments would catch the attention of the various Ministers, and certainly of the First Minister and his colleagues as they very properly talk about the state of the regional economy in western Canada.

One of the comments that they made on Page 39 in talking about Canada's financial position was: "Canada's financial position deteriorated sharply, compounded by disastrous government policies in just about any other area that you can think of. Tremendous mis-allocation of resources were created by grandiose and extravagant Public Works' schemes, reminiscent of the Kubichek government in Brazil in the 1950s." Now, I admit, Mr.

Chairman, that's strong talk, but this is the observation of the Bank Credit Analyst people trying to look objectively at the economy of our country and to indicate to us some of the views that they have. So you -(I nterjection)- well, my honourable friend always insists on looking at things through his own ideological sewer pipe, but at the same time my friend, there is certain basic - or Mr. Chairman, there are certain basic economic facts to which even he is not immune as he'll probably find after the next election. Mr.

Chairman, one of these basic economic facts is, of course, that a country such as ours cannot spend its way out of inflation; no matter how well intentioned the spending programs are or whatever, we cannot spend our way out of inflation. As this comment continues you can see the basic ingredients, and I'm quoting, "a financial disaster in Canada"' and this was written in December 19 76 or January 1977: "An overvalued currency," ... my honourable friend isn't even sure what century he's in, let alone anything he reads -o r does he read, Mr. Chairman?

"An over-valued currency sustained only by continuous recourse on a vast scale to foreign credit. Huge budget deficits and balance of payment deficits, an uncontrol lable public sector, sharply decli ning competitive position of manufacturing and a persistent shift of employment to unproductive overhead areas and away from the produci ng sectors. Corporate profits and the rate of return on capital have been sharply eroded as a result of this process and more recently by the controls' program.

Investment in goods produci ng industries is falling at a rate which, if continued, will threaten the lon g-term viability of the economy. Private capital inflows for investment have slowed dramatically, partly due to the hostile political climate, controls on foreign investment and punitive taxation and the outflow of private capital is on an accelerating trend." MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member's time has expired. MR. SCHREYER: No, I don't believe there's any time limit, Mr. Chairman, on ... MR. CHAIRMAN: There is time limit in Supply ' 30 minutes. Unle ss the honourable member has leave.

If the honourable member has leave, then he can proceed. MR. SCHREYER: ... if it could not be agreed for my honourable friend, the Leader of the Oppositio n, to round out his discourse and then of course, as he said himself earlier, this matter is debatable in a matter of some few days. MR. LYON: Mr. Chairman, I'll round it out momentarily. I mention these things in the course of this debate, Mr.

Chairman, mainly because we have to come to grips, not only in this Legislature, but ind eed right across Canada with some of the diagnoses, not all of which we're going to agree with, but diagnoses some oft he that are coming to us from reports of this nature. lt is a depressing story, the state of the national economy today, the rewinding up of inflation, the growth of unemployment with the problems that that manifests for the person who is unemployed here, in Newfoundla nd, in Quebec, or whatever. So, I would conclude my remarks today, Mr.

Chairman, by thanking the First Minister for the statement he has given us, for the manifestation of concern for unemployment which is shared on all sides of the House, for suggesting to him that there may well be some areas in which he may wish to rethink the program that has been advanced by the government today along the lines that we have indicated; but to suggest to him, as well, that this kind of programming on the short term, while helpful on the short term, really does not get to the root of the problem of what is afflicting the national economy in this country today.

What is afflicting the national economy I think is readily understood by him, by me, by most people in the political field in Canada today.

There has to be that kind of restraint shown by government, there has to be that kind of realistic re-appraisal that we are not pricing ourselves out of international markets by virtue of national policies; that we are not permitting the monetary supply in this country to run wild as it has been- an increase in the money supply of 12 0 percent over a five-year period is hardly the kind of responsible growth and hardly the kind of responsible anti-inflation measure that one would expect any Federal Government to take.

I would hope that some of these considerations be equally to the forefront in the First Minister's 2696

Wednesday, May 4, 1•77 mind and in the mind of the Min ister of Finance, engaged as he is in discussions with his provincial and federal counterparts, as they work together- as indeed they must -over the next period to try to realign and to im prove the economy of Canada through those governmental measures which are best designed to mak-e su re that we have productive jobs in Canada for our young people, long term jobs in Canada for our young people; growth in our economy, particularly for our young people; and the kind of understanding that is imperative to that series of ideals that we want to achieve, the kind of understanding that this can most productively be done through the instrumentalit y of the private sector.

MR. CHAI RMAN: The Honourable First Minis ter. MR. SCHRE YER: Mr. Chairman, I rise on a procedural point to indicate to the Honourable the Member for Fort Rouge that because of the commencement of the holding of the Western Premier s' Conference in Brandon, that events take me away from the Chamber and, accordingl y, I would li ke him to indicate by some means whether he would prefer the option of speaking at a laterdateor if he wishes to go ahead now in my absence, in which case, I would ask the senior Min ister present to simply take note of his remarks. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR.

AXWORTHY: Well, Mr. Chairman, I had, like the previous speaker, only wanted to make a few remarks and while I am prepared to go short, I would not go long, unlik e the previous speaker, so I would also have the opportunity perhaps to make an a more extensive reply. If the Min ister feels oblig ed to leave, that's fine, but we would still lik e to make an in itial reply at least atthis stageso thata note can be taken of it. Mr.

Chairman, we would just lik e to say that the announcement of the Premier is lik e that play that was running in Winnip eg a while back called "Waiting for Godot." They're always waiting for the message to come and finally when it comes, it really doesn't amount to all the expectations that have been placed on it. - We certainly welcome, no question, we welcome the intervention of the Provincial Government into the area of job creation because the simple fact dictates the necessity to do something.

We agree fully with the First Minis ter that the figur es don't look good in Manitoba; that there is presently well over 32,000 unemplo yed at the last reading. We talk about 1D-15,000 new people coming on the job market in the next month or two, that's 40-45,000, which is well over ten percent of the labour force in this province and so there is no question that something had to be done. We also welcome the fact that the Min ister is prepared at this stage to announce a number of .. programs that will be of some assistance to certain community organizations which need help.

But we go back to a basic proposition that we have been advancing in this House now for two or three years, that it is not only what you do, it's how you do it. Frankly, Mr. Chairman, in this annou ncement, as we see it, by the First Minis ter, they haven't learned their lessons very well about how to create jobs; and fu rthermore, they are missing some fi rst-class opportunities to do some fi rst-class thi ngs in this province that could have been used at this time much more effectively than the measures that he has announced. We would simply lik e to suggest fir st, Mr.

Chairman, this proposition, that the issue with the emplo yment program as we have seen announced, the $22 mill ion program' fir st should be seen in combina tion with what the Federal Government is presently doing in direct job creation. At last count, close to $12 mil lion of federal money has been coming into the direct job creation. So the issue has to really be asked, are we simply going to duplic ate that direct job creation of $12 milli on that the Federal Government has or co-ordinate it and supple ment it in a different set of areas? I am afraid, Mr.

Chairman, that what is happening is really duplication, not suppl ementation. Rather than putting our money to work to provide for a more comprehensive, wider ranging program that would work out from the federal job creation program, we simply have seen fit in many cases to replace what they �ave done or simply duplicate what they have done. In that respect, we regret very deeply that one of :he lessons that should have been learned in job creation is that you can't do proper job creation in a .'our-month period.

If there is any lesson that has been learned by the Federal Government si nce the 1960s , with its LIP program, its OFY program, l;>y the American job CORE programs, all the dif ferent manpower programs, is that you can't do very much in four months. Frankly, you are going to lose an �wful lot of money simp ly through slipp age and through wastage. In fact, Mr.

Chairman, I can recall in many cases in this House, the Min ister of Health and Social Development saying, "Those damn federal job creation programs, what they do is they get a lot of expectation set up; people get organizations going; they get jobs moving and then just when it starts to work, they cut it off and they say where's our long term financing? " That, Mr. Chairman, is exactly what's going to happen here.

You are going to build up a number of expectations on the part of the munici palities, on the part of community of organizations, on the part departments, and all of a sudden, just when they get hired, just when they start to work, the program comes to an end. lt's all over. lt just comes to an end, it's all done, everyone says, "Well, where's the next payroll?" All of a sudden, you sort of have to QO back for more suppl ementary estimates. And fur thermore, Mr. Chairman, that kind of false development of 2697

Wednesday, May 4, 1977 expectations ends up creating a whole set of activities which have a terminal poi nt which often times creates far worse problems and far worse frustrations than the ones they were designed to solve. The fact of the matter is, Mr. Chairman, -(Inter jection)- No, not do nothing, Mr. Chairman, because the fact of the matter is, the Member for St. Matthews and the Minister of Public Works voted against sim ilar measures in this House no more than three weeks ago which would have had a much longer term effective job creation formula than the one that was announced today in many respects.

In fact' the Fi rst Minister borrowed from many cases of resolutions that we presented in this House arid one thing I can congratulate the First Minister on is his ability to convi nce those recalculatrive reactionaries on the NDP side who -The Minister of Public Works is sort of saying, "Oh, yes. Don't get innovative; don't do anything new; don't develop anything that's different." You know, he was always sort of saying, "Boy, don't do anything at all." And he defeated that resolution.

Well, it's coming back to haunt him and I am goi ng to be very interested to hear what he's got to say now that he's been refuted by his own colleagues on his own side. But be that as it may, the fact of the matter is that the basic argument against short-term employment programs is that the same people that you emplo yed sort of have a temporary existence in the general market, they don't have enough time to acquire skills, don't have enough time to acquire any kind of permanency and soon they are going out the other end.

The argument that we have made in this House time and again is that if you are going to go into community employ ment, Direct Job Creation Programs, then they must be longer term, they must be worked out so thatthe recipients or people in those programs have an opportunity to get decent training, to get the kind of skills that they need and that you can create the jobs which have a longer term content to them. Mr.

Chairman, we say that this kind of short term, quickstart' politically expedient kind of program is really not in the longer term interests of the province and it will certainly not help those who are in most serious need of employment opportunities. If you really look atthe unemployment problems in the Province of Manitoba, let's ask who are the unemplo yed? Well, to begin with, many of the unemployed are those who have Grade Nine education or less and for lack of any credentials and lack of education and training, can't get into the general market.

There is a paper barrier that keeps them out - the credentials' barrier that keeps them out. This short-term job program will do nothing to help them. Whatthey really need is the job opportunity in a factory, in an office, wherever it may be, where if it does require supplementation salary to bring them in at the first instance, at least they stay there. They get paid; they acquire the skills, they acquire the permits; they learn how to work and then they stay in the job market because an employer begins to find that that guy is a valuable worker to have on hand. But you can't do it with this short term thing.

In fact, you know what happens, Mr. Chairman? An interesting report was in the Sunday New York Times of last week where one of the American job creation programs which provided assistance for job creation in the public service found that what municipality and state governments were really doing wa� simply replacing their own expenditures with that short-term job money. What you are going to find happening is that the City of Wi nnipeg and the different municipalit ies will cut back in some of their intended expenditures because they have now got short-term employees coming in.

You will gain nothing from it; you will gain nothing from that short-term activity because it will simply be doing what the economist called a "replacement function." They will simply be taking your money and using it instead of using their own. So the net stimulus to the economy will be thereby reduced.

We have again argued in this House many many times that what we should be doing is working out on a well-developed plan ned approach with the private sector job creating opportunities which could start out with a degree of subsidy at the start and then index out as the worker gained in proficiency and productivity along the way. But give them the initial start, get them into that market and give them the opportunity to get some skills, to acquire some performance, and to acquire some permanency. And that is why, Mr. Chairman, while we welcome job creation, we do not welcome the short term activity.

We also would suggest, Mr. Chairman, and we'll have much more to say about this as we debate it later on, this government has missed some fine opportunities to provide some important assets to the Province of Manitoba. The one area that was al most vi rtually neglected in this whole description, "New Job Creation," is the area of housing. The only money that is going into it is some improvement of public housi ng stock. Mr.

Chairman, I have in front of me the March Housing Activity Report of Central Mortgage and Housing, which points out that of the 600 apartment starts in Manitoba in the month of March, only 72 came out of the private sector, al most virtually that the private apartment rental market is dead in the Province of Manitoba. There is no capital goi ng in to bring it back to li fe and yet we have a vacancy rate of less than one percent, we have no money goi ng into Capital Supply in housing, and nothing is quicker-start, long er-term job creation money than putting it into housing construction.

If the announcement had been made today that capital money was going into housing produc tion, then the housi ng starts would have gone up radically and we would have had a major answer to the shortage of housing that we have now. The build ers could have started tomorrow into a 2698

Wednesday, May 4, 1977 major housing production field. There is no money at all for new housing starts, no money at all for the improvement and renovation of older apartment buildin gs to help protect against the demolition of older buildin gs - not one single cent of that kind of money - and that is where you would have had longer-term jobs and jobs that would have put important assets into the Province of Manitoba. So that was ignored; a great opportunity to not only provide jobs, but to build an asset. We also have missed the important opportunity, Mr.

Chairman, to provide major recreation assets in this province. There are plans afoot that are sitting on those shelves for major new provincial parks in the Province of Manitoba. There are a number of requirements for recreation centres-not just in the Town of Thompson- we need a new set of recreation areas, you know, in the area of Fort Rouge, if you can believe it. The inner city of Winnipeg probably has the greatest shortage of recreation facilities of anywhere in the Province of Manitoba, measured against populat ion.

There are far fewer recreation facili ties and space per 1,000 people in areas like Fort Rouge and Crescentwood and Wolseley and Elmwood and downtown Winnipeg, and not one single cent is going in for the capital construction of arenas, tennis courts, different kinds of art and recreation and athletic facilities in the Province of Manitoba. We could have had a whole string of inner city, town parks and recreation areas. We could have done some very exciting things, Mr.

Chairman, with that kind of capital supply and again put assets that would have remained in this city and in this province for 10, 15, 20, 30, 40, 50 years, assets that would have been used by generation to generation, rather than the quick -start, short-term, fast-buck kind of operation that we are getting into now. So that is a tremendous opportunity to miss. Why miss it? Why avoid that? I will tell you the reason: because that's the kind of thing the government isn't control ling. -(Int erjection)- it's not in there; it's not in there. I just read what the Minister said.

There is a lit tle bit of money going in for renovation; we are going to have people picking up paper off the river bank; we are going to be cleaning up brush; but there isn't that kind of major development of capital assets. Univ ersities have been asking for a major recreation, gymnasium, housing project in downtown Winnipeg -n o money for that kind of thing. In other words , we have had great opportunities to do some important things, and leave important, enduring structures, and all we are going to get, probably, is temporary work programs. Mr.

Chairman, in the past we have argued that major investments are as desperately needed in this province for capital services, for sewer lin es, aqueducts, servicing of land. One of the major causes of high land cost and high housing cost is that there is a shortage of serviced land, major servicing like storm sewers and water and utility lin es, not one single cent is going into that kind of asset.

And yet other provinces, that is where they are putting their capital, into the implementation of major services and structures in municipalities for the servicing of land which would have reduced the cost of housing, would have brought far more land .... We have demonstrated and proved, without question of a doubt, that those fine, grandiose plans of the Minister of Housing to provide MHRC land are simply fool's dreams because the servicing isn't there. They are not going to come on stream for five or ten years because there are no pipes going into them.

Well here was a chance to build those pipes to connect that land so that it becomes serviceable and useable, and again we missed the opportunity. Mr. Chairman, I don't understand why, frankly- $33 million he announced, $22 million in the first phase, $16 million in hard capital - the money was there. lt is not for lack of spending it. The money could have been used to provide that kind of important asset to the province and yet create the economy that would have given much more permanent, long-term stimulation to many critical job sectors in the Province of Manitoba. So frankly, Mr.

Chairman, I am somewhat perplexed by the Minister's announcement. We welcome the initiative; we welcome the response to the unemployment problem, but we are absolutely perplexed by the particular measures that he has introduced. I think, Mr.

Chairman, it shows a poverty of imagination. lt shows that the ability to think in a kind of attractive, insightful way into what ails the Province of Manitoba is missing, that there has been a kind of deadening of imagination and a shrinking of spirit, and that therefore they go on the shelf and take what's easy, the short-term kinds of things that are so easy to handle, rather than really putting their minds to work and coming up with something that could have been an important and positive, constructive kind of intervention. So we really are of two minds about the program, Mr.

Chairman, it's the old idea of having mixed feelings about watching your mother-in-law go over a cliff in your new car. We have that feeling, in this case, Mr. Chairman, I suppose I would be prepared to overcome my feeli ngs if it was those Ministers opposite going over in that car. I would be prepared to make that donation to mankind, but, Mr. Chairman, the fact of the matter is those mixed feelings are; again it is the right purpose, it's the wrong means.

You are not going to get the maximum benefit for the money spent, and that is what perhaps bothers me the most, that we are not really going to get a full bang for the dollar that we are spending, we are not going to get the ulti mate use of those public dollars that we are spending. Mr. Chairman, I don't mind spending publ ic dollars if they are well spent, if they really have a high degree of impact, 2699

Wednesday, May 4, 1977 and if they have a long-term, enduring sort of benefit to the commu nity, but I don't lik e to see money spent that is simpl y being done for short-term political gain, or somethin g to respond to a short-term problem. That's the wrong use of money and, my golly, Mr. Chairman, they are using the money wrongly in this case. They could have done an awful lot more with it, and, Mr. Chairman, we will have a lot more to say about what they could have done. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Min ister of Public Works. � HONOUR ABLE RUSSELL DOE RN (Eimwood): Mr.

Chairman, I did not inte d to enter the debate at this time. MR. LYON: ... Mr . Chairman, I am sorry, with the House Leader, we were under the im pression that the Fir st Min ister would make his statement in Supply today. That was the arrangement as it was reported to us, that the Opposition would make a response, a Member of the Li beral Party would make a response, then we would move into regular Supply and the debate would be set over by agreement unti l tomorrow. That was the arrangement the House Leader spoke of. If that arrangement is to be changed, if somebody else is to speak, fine.

I would just lik e to know if the House Leader is aware of it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minis ter of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, that is my un derstan ding of the arrangement, although I would hope the Honourable Leader of the Opposition under stands that no one is precluded from par tici pating if they wish to proceed. lt is an un derstandin g that may or may not be kept. I accept that und erstanding as being on the record. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Min ister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Chairman, if I may interject, the Min ister of Public Works has indic ated that he wi ll not proceed and that the arrangements that were made will carry through and that, as far as this aspect of discussion is concerned, it wi 11 cease and go into regular Comm ittee of Supply for the next 20 mi nutes. -(l nterjections)- MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. MR. LYON: Mr. Chairman, the Min ister of Labour has expressed what was our un derstanding, not a desire on our part to cut off anybody who wishes to speak, that was the arrangement we thought that had agreement on all sides of the House. MR. PAULLEY: Mr .

Chairman, may I say to my colleague, the Minis ter of Agriculture, I am not attempting to supe rsede what he said, but I was just made knowle dgeable of the point raised since I came in to the room, the Min ister of Agricult ure, I think, is following through the und erstandin g. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I am wonderi ng, being that it is 12 minu tes after 4, whether mem bers opposite would agree that we not proceed further with Comm ittee of Supply, but rather we call in the Speaker and proceed with Introduction of Bills that have not been introduced to date.

We have some Min isters prepared to in troduce new bil ls. MR. LYON: The second readings to bill s that have not been introduced, Mr. Chairman? MR. USKIW: That's right. Yes. For the 20 min utes. MR. LYON: That's agreeable over here. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I move that the Committee rise. MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee rise. Call in the Speaker. The Chairman reported upon the Committee's deliberations to Mr. Speaker and requested leave to sit again. IN SESSION MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Logan. MR. JENKINS: Mr.

Speaker, I would lik e to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Poi>n1 Douglas, that the report of the Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether we couldn't proceed with Second Reading s, on the bottom of Page 2, Bill 13 and No. 68. MR. SPEAKER: Right. Thank you. SECOND READINGS - GOVERNMENT BILLS BILL (N0. 13) -

AN ACT TO AMEND THE MUNI CIPAL ACT MR. SPEAKER: Bill 13 , the Honourable Minis ter of Mu nicipal Affairs. HON OUR ABLE BIL LIE URUSKI (St. George) presented Bill (No. 13),

An Act to Amend the Mu nicipal Act, for second reading. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter. 2700

Wednesday, May 4, 1977 MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for the honourable members of the two parties I will provide copies of my remarks after I finish introducing the bill so they would have the comments on the sections. The proposed amendments are basically housekeeping matters necessary to permit the municipalities to keep pace with changing circumstances and service requirements. There are amendments in the bill which involve the local government districts of Leaf Rapids and Snow Lake which have recently - last fall - been incorporated.

The initial structure of these LGDs involved agreements entered into basically between the province and the mining companies which developed these two areas. The basic financial and assessment structures established in these development agreements will be carried forward with the newly created towns becoming legal successors to the LGDs and its obligations. The amendments in this Act will clarify the position of the towns which evolved from an LGD in that regard. The present Municipal Act does not provide for boundaries of a city to be altered except by Act of the Legislature.

For example, a city cannot agree with its neighbouring rural munici pality on a boundary change by submitting the proposal to the Municipal Board. Where there is an agreement, or indeed there is a disagreement regarding a proposed boundary change involving a city, the matter must wait until the Legislature convenes. There are changes which will provide that any municipal unit including a city, will have the same procedure for boundary changes available to it; that is basically the Municipal Board will be requested to make a recommendation regarding change in status, boundary or area.

This is to be the same as is now the case for other munici pal districts where they can go before the Municipal Board. One further change will permit the Munici pal Board to recommend that a particular situation should be dealt with by way of a bill being presented to the Legislature if it feels that the decision is very major in scope, so they can still recommend that it be referred to the Legislature for decision depending on the submission made to it. There are present prohibitions in The Municipal Act for certain groups of persons from running for munici pal council.

For example, a jailer, superintendent of any correctional institution, sheriff, deputy sheriff, sheriff's bailiff or bailiff of any court, a clerk of a County Court, a master, registrar or referee in Chambers. In our opinion, there appears to be no particular reason why these people should continue to be excluded from munici pal office. Rather, it would seem appropriate to broaden the area available for public partici pation. The question of elected members of council failing to partici pate on a regular basis at council meetings has proven to be a problem in some municipalities in recent years.

At present, the Act requires such a situation to be dealt with through the courts. The Act provides that a member of council who misses three regular consecutive meetings of council, forfeits his seat. However, if that member refuses to resign or disclaim his seat, it is necessary for an Election Petition to be taken to court.

Such a procedure is time consuming and expensive for municipalities. lt is therefore proposed to provide that where a member forfeits his seat by missing three regular consecutive meetings of counc il, the council of the municipality may pass a resolut ion requesting the Minister of Municipal Affairs to declare that the member has forfeited his seat and that the seat is vacant. The Minister may then so declare the seat to be vacated and advise the municipality and the member of his decision. Provision is made for that decision to be appealed to the County Court within 30 days of the date of such a declaration.

The proposed solut ion should simplify matters in this regard without preventing the matter being considered by a court should any person wish to appeal the Minister's decision. There is an administrative change providing that municipalities may prescribe interest charges on unpaid fees and other charges for munici pal services. The proposed interest rate is one percent per month on accounts not paid within 30 days of the rendering of the account.

While specific penalty rates are provided in other situations in the in The Municipal Act, there was no provision in the Act for penalties for services such as ambulance charges, street damage charges and other services which are rendered by the municipality. Municipalities have requested the authority to attach such interest charges on unpaid accounts and we are in agreement with this request.

There are also administrative changes recommended regarding the munici pal pension plan situation such as establishing the Municipal Employees' Benefits Board as a corporate body and providing for that board to provide remuneration and payment for expenses for board members performing their duties as such. Previously, there was no specific reference to payment of such expenses nor was there any specific designation of the pension board as a corporation.

Other amendments dealing with the pension board deal with authorities; giving it authority to temporarily borrow in order to carry out its operations and of course the borrowing must not exceed an amount fixed by the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council. An amendment to the Employee Benefits Board to extend the time limit where people are required or permitted to take action under the regulations or under a pension plan. Such time extension will extend only to matters of a minor nature but will enable the Board to waive strict time requirements where hardship might be the result of strict adherence to time limits.

These changes are basically administrative in nature and are the natural result of the establishment of a new pension board for 2701

Wednesday, May 4, 1977 municipal empl oyees. Certain sections are being repealed which require a muni ci pality that wishes to expropriate land in another munici pality to obtain the consent of that municip ality to the expropriation. This

section is repealed to reflect the provisions of

Section 202 of the Muni cipal Board which gives the Mun icipal Board the right to approve expropriation by one municip ality of land lying in another municip ality. lt's designed to delete reference to any consent by a municip ality but the

section still provides that an application for authority to expropriate in another municip ality shall be advertised and that the Board will have a hearing on the proposed acquisition. These changes clarify the jurisdic tion and procedure for the Municip al Board in dealing with such expropriations. lt also confirms the Board's right to deal with a requested expropriation even though the municip ality being expropriated from does not concur with the proposal. Certain vital acquisitions of land beyond the boundaries of municip alities could previously be thwarted by refusal to grant consent of the expropriation.

This wil l no longer be the case but the hearing will continue so that both municip al councils can be heard and the valid ity of the program can be decided upon whether or not it should proceed so that there will be ample hearing in cases where there may be a dispute between two municip al councils on an acquisition. I could cite many instances where projects have taken a long time dealin g with reservoirs, sewage lagoons in a town adjacent to a munici pality and the lik e where problems have arisen. This will give ample opportunity for both councils to be heard.

There are amendments of an adminis trative nature dealing with an operating deficit incurred by a mun ici pality without the approval of the Min ister. The change recommended clarifies the right to require munici palitie s to levy taxes for an operating deficit over a period not exceeding three years. The suggested change merely clarifies the Minis ter's right to order such a levy in case of an operating deficit. There are certain amendments which make The Local Authorities Election Act applicable to uninc orporated villa ge district elections.

At present the UVD com mittee members are elected at a public meeting to hold office for one, two or three years. Amendments to The Municip al Act propose that the provisions of The Local Authorities Election Act concerning nomi nations and elections will apply to unin corporated vil lage district comm ittee and that the term of office be the same as for muni cipal councils; that is three years.

The present Municipal Act sections dealing with local improvement districts provide that the Municip al Board may order the disestablis hment of a local im provement district but does not provide for the Board to alter or mend the boundaries of such a district. The proposed changes clarif y the situation by permitting the Municip al Board to vary the boundaries of any local improvement district establis hed pursuant to The Municip al Act. At present, The Mun ici pal Act does not prohibi t a member of council from purchasing land at a mun icipal tax sale.

The pro posed amendment clearly prohibits a member of council from participating in any purchase of land at a tax sale in his own munici pality. In view of the prohibition which is extended to municip al clerks, assessors, secretary-treasurers or managers, it seems reasonable to also prohibit a member of council from participating in such tax sale purchases. lt should also be noted that there are specific procedures outlined in The Municip al Act-and that is in

Section 49 - and that is for members of council dealing with municip alit ies. lt would seem reasonable that a member of council who would be considered an insider should not participate in the tax sales of his own muni cipality. lt will not prevent him from participating in it should lands go on tender and sale after the original tax sale. lt will not prevent him from doing that. But in the initial instance, it would prohibit him from taking

part in the tax sale. -(I nterjection)-

Section 49 will be the one that deals with the rapport between a council lor and his munici pality. There are certain proposals in the Act scheduled to come into effect upon receipt of Royal Assent with the exception of the proposed new

section which is retroactive to the fir st of January, 1976. And that

section deals with the newly incorporated Towns of Leaf Rapids and Snow Lake from the LGDs. This retroactive provision is necessary in order to accommodate the newly incorporated Towns of Snow Lake and Leaf Rapids and their contractual relationship with the min ing companies involved in each respective town. Mr. Speaker, as I have indicated, most of these are housekeeping in nature and I will distribute to members opposite copies of the notes that I have on this. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. GE ORGE HENDERSON: Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member from Rhi neland, that debate be adjourned. MOTI ON presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: We have two mi nutes to Private Mem bers' Hour. BILL (NO. 68) -

AN ACT TO AMEND THE SOCIAL SERVICE S ADMINIS TRATION ACT MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Health. MR. DE SJARDINS presented Bill (No. 68),

an Act to amend The Social Services Adminis tration 2702

Wednesday, May 4, 1977 Act, for second reading. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, there is very little exp lana tion that I can give that is not clear in the bill. lt is not replacing anyt hi ng. lt is a new

section that makes it qu ite clear that the government will lic ense these faci lit ies for our programs and no other lic ence will be req uired. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Rhi neland . MR. BROWN: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Member from Pem bina, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. BILL (NO. 59) -

AN ACT TO AMEND THE HUMAN RIGHTS ACT MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Ag ricultur e. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, if it's convenient for mem bers of the House, the Attorney-General is prepared to go with Bill No. 59, but he may need more than a minu te; he may go over the 4:30. MR. SPEAKER: Is it the pl easure of the House to proceed? (Agreed) The Honour able Attorney General. HONOURABLE HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk) presented Bill (No. 59),

an Act to amend The Human Righ ts Act, for second readin g. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Attorney-General. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, this bill deals with amendme nts to The Hum an Righ ts Act pertainin g to those that are handic apped. The defi nition of physical handic ap is in cl uded in the bill and mem bers can read its de fini tion, and needless to say, it does in clude infi rmity, disabil ity of a physical nature, mal formation, dis figur ement, etc. As honour able mem bers I'm sure are aware, the physic ally hand icapped have suf fered from various areas of discr im ina tion.

These various areas of discri mi nation have become more and more apparent with the passage of time and certai nly I, as Min ister, have received a numb er of submis sions from the handic apped , including representat ions from their assoc iation repres enting the handic apped in Man itoba, as to various problems which they have encount ered in the field of emplo yment and housi ng because of their physical hand ic ap. In sofar as the bill is concerned, it rel ates to all fields; housi ng, signs, notices, and inc lud es that of emplo yment.

There is a clause here in order to ensur e that ther e is some protect ion that if the handic ap is of such a natu re as to reasonably preclu de or render the indi vidual in capable of sati sfacto rily dischar gin g the dutie s of the position being advertised for, then of course, it is not di scr imina tion to apply this legisla tion in that type of ' situa tion. But if the hand icap itself does not preclude the person from carrying out those resp onsi bil ities then it would be an area of di scrimi nation un der The Hu man Rig hts Act to discr imina te agains t that indi vidual.

I think that covers, basically, the material. This is a bill that cert ainly affects the liv es of many hundr eds of citizens in Man itoba that un fortunately suffer from hand ic aps. I think it's long overd ue. There is cert ai nly a need for this leg isla tion. That need has been expressed, cert ainly to The Hum an Rights Com mi ss ion, to myself.

The Hu man Rig hts Comm ission had a very exte nsive comm ission exam ining this entire area, so that the bill has not been in troduced has tily but has been in troduced as a result of a great deal of reflec ting and though t about the very unf ortunate position that so many of our fellow citizens fin d thems elves in today in Man itoba, and in an effort to try to assist them in this im portant regard. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Swan River. MR. JAMES H. BIL TON: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Robl in, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. MR.

SPEAKER: We are now into Private Mem bers' Hour unle ss the House has a desire to carry on. The Honourable Min ister for Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if there may be an asse ssment as to the de sir abil ity or otherwise of it bei ng calle d 5:30. We do have a very im portant document to take a look at over the dinn er hour that was presented by the Premier, it may be an inclina tion to do so. Of cour se, Sir, the Ru les of the House do provide for the 4:30 Private Mem bers' Hour, su bject, of course, to the desire of the House.

I think I can answer as far as the government is concerned, if it's agreed by the House we wou ld agree. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Leader of the Opposit ion. MR. LYON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We would have no objection to cal ling it 5:30. The Mi n ister mentioned a copy of the Fi rst Min ister's state ment. We don't have one and if by ch ance there was one it would be help fu l; otherwise we have to wait until tomorrow's Hansard, but if one could be made avai lable it would be help ful to each of the parties. · BUSIN ESS OF THE HOUSE 2703

Wednesday, May 4, 1977 MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Flin Flon. MR. THO MAS BARROW: Well, Mr. Speaker, I'd lik e to make a change on the Public Accounts Commit tee, if I may. The Min ister of Corrections wil l replace the Min ister of Fin ance on that commit tee. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. The Honourable Min ister for Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Well, Mr. Speaker, I just want to make a slightly dif ferent in terpretation than apparently that of my honourable friend, the Leader of the Opposition.

I referred to an imp ortant statement; I wasn't referring precisely to any docu mentary but rather to the words and the su bject matter that was in troduced by my Premier. MR. SPEAKER: The House having agreed to the adjournment hour, the House is now adjourned and stands adjourne d until 2:30 tomorrow afternoon. 2704

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-4-53
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 4th hansardpdf 53.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	3d70536253ccd59c91991a9464b27f357ecd8a76

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