Time: 2:30 p.m. LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday , 11 March 1980 OP E NING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. INTRODUC TION OF GU ESTS MR . SPEAKE R, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Birtl e-Russell): Before I proceed, I should like to draw the hono urable members' attention to the gallery, where we have 18 visitors from Phase II of a seminar called An Introduction To Practical Politics. This seminar is sponsored by the Manitoba Rural Leadership Training Co mmittee, under the direction of Mr. Keith Smith. We also have 28 students of Grade 8 Standing fro m He Des Chenes School, under the directi on of Mr. Claire Barard.

This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Springfield. On behalf of all the honourable members, we welcome you here this afternoon. PR ESENTING PETITIO NS MR. CLER K: I beg to present the Petition of The Manitoba Club, praying for the pa ssing of

An Act to amend

An Act to incorporate The Manitoba Club. MR. SPEAKE R: Re ading and Receiving Petitions •.• Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees •.. CO MMITTEE REP ORTS MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Radiss on. MR. ABE KOV NATS (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, the Committee of su pply has adopted a certain resolution, di rects me to report same and asks leave to sit again. I move, se conded by the Honourable Member for Dauphin, that the report of Committee be received. MO TION presented and carried. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPO RTS MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable First Minister HON. STERLING R.

LYON (Charles wood): Mr. Speaker, I have a statement to make to the House. Mr. Speaker, I have a brief statement on the announcement by the Bank of Canada last night of a new floating bank rate. While we have not seen the text of the Governor's announcement, and we're not informed about it in advance, it is our understanding from media reports that the new rate will be set at 1/4 percentage point above the average yield on 91 -day Canadian Government Treasury Bills at the weekly sale held on Thursdays. This will replace the .fixed rate which has been held at 14 percent since last October.

While the ne w floating syste m may create the impression that the bank rate will be determined by the market, in fact, it is important to note that the Bank of Canada participates directly in the weekly auction and because of that, may have a direct influence on the average treasury bill yield which will determine the floating bank rate. In any case, whatever the mechanism, the change will in no way absolve the bank and the federal government from ultimate responsibility for monetary policy.

While the new floating rate sys tem may have the advantage of le ssening the disruptive effect of large adjustments in the bank rate, it does not appear to have any other significant benefits. Quite clearly and as the Governor of the Bank of Canada has apparently ackno wledged, it does not signal a reduction in rates and, in fact, there is widespread speculation that further up ward movement is likely to occur as early as this week. - 647 -

Tuesday , 11 March 19 80 Our government has made it clear on numerous occasions, that while we recognize the difficult position in which the bank and the federal government find themselves and parti cularly their concern about preventing a further major decline in the Canadian dollar so as to avoid added pressures on import costs, we in no way endorse the current federal interest rate policy. And the same is true of the new announcement concerning the floating bank rate. Just under a year ago, Mr.

Speaker, in March, 197 9 the subject of interest rates was discussed in some detail at the last Conference of Western Premiers in Prince George. The communique issued at the conclusion of that conference stated -- and I quote only in part: "The western Premiers express their concern over the unacceptably high level of interest rates no w prevailing in Canada. They noted that these interest rates are having a negative impact on citize ns, parti cularly small businesses, small farmers and on persons now seeking to buy homes.

Because of the implicat ions of monetary policy for our provinces, the western Premiers felt it was ess ential that there be provincial input into Bank of Canada decisions. The western Premiers agreed that the Governor of the Bank of Canada be invited to meet as soon as po ssible with each government to review their concerns." Mr. Speaker, follo wing the Prince George conference, the Governor of the Bank visited each of the western provinces for discussions of bank policy.

When the Governor was in Winnipeg, both the Minister of Finance and I emphasize d very strongly to him that we believe the bank should take far greater cognizance of the differing regional impacts of its policies than it has up to no w, and that new mechanisms should be considered for ensuring better regional and provinc ial input in monetary policy formulation.

We emphasized that we recognize monetary policy was a matter which is within the exclusive jurisdiction of the federal government, but that improved consultation with the provinces was important because of our shared responsibility for fiscal and economic matters.

In light of the new announcement by the bank and of the very serious situation in the United States, I intend to suggest to the other western Premiers , that the governor of the bank be requested to meet with us once again, either singly or as a group, at the earliest possible oppo rtunity to discu ss the current situation and its implications for the provinces. I want to emphasize as well, Mr.

Speaker, that we continue to believe that one of the most important root causes of the current interest rate problem and of our vulnerability in two international pressures, is the unacceptably high level of the federal deficit. In the current circumstances, it is all the more ess ential that the Government of Canada reaffirm the fiscal policy commitments that it made at the First Minis ter s' Conference in concert with the other ten provinces in February of 1978, including the commitment, Mr. Speaker, to reduce its deficit.

We believe the new federal government should introduce a new budget as soon as poss ible after parliament reconvenes. and we also believe it is important that First Ministers meet to discuss the economic situation at an early date. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. HO WAR D PAWLEY (Selkirk):) Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the opposition, I first want to clearly indicate that we certainly oppose the efforts under way at the present time to tie the interest rate in a floating manner, to abdicate the interest rate from the control of the central bank to the hands of the chartered banks.

This lack of control, I believe, will result in interest rates increasing sharply and m ay very well, Mr. Speaker, result in interest rates in a sh ort period of time reaching record levels. So that the move announced yest erday by Otta w a is certainly one I believe that most Manitobans and Canadians will reject and will oppos e. No w having said that, Mr.

Speaker, I find it so mewhat of passing interest that the First Minist er, that his political party while in office in Otta wa, sa w fit to increase interest rates four times in the space of some six months after committing the mselves in the federal election of May of 19 79 to decrease interest rates. And no w, Mr. Speaker, of cours e, the members across the way speak boldly and bravely about what should be done. Why didn't they do something when they and their friends were in pow er in Otta w a in 19 79? Their stance, Mr. Speaker, comes as no surprise to us.

We have seen this maneuvering back and forth from Liberal to Cons ervative and the reversible attit udes on the part of both old line parties pertaining to interest for the last number of years . Mr. Speaker, what I believe must be mentioned at this time is that we appear to be void of any suggestions from across the way as to what can be done in Manitoba now to deal with the burden of interest rates upon the small busin ess people and ho meowners o f this province. - 6 48 -

Tuesday , 11 March 19 80 What are you prepared to do? You can blame Ot ta w a only so far, but let us hear your proposals as to what you will do in the Province of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, we have heard nothing that is concrete from across the way. We have heard no suggestions, no proposals , despite repeated questi oning in this Chamber to government members as to their intentions pertaining to some relief for those suffering fro m interest rates in the province. We say, Mr.

Speaker, that it is better to subsidize the homeowners pertaining to the problems that they are faced with in respect to renewable mortgages at high interest rates, than to continue to subsidize as they are doing under so many of the programs that they have undertaken in respect to Enterprises Manitoba. So much better, Mr. Speaker, but to subsidize the interest rates for small business men rather than to continue to pay out millions of dollars under grants under the Enterprise Manitoba Program. That would be a much more useful, positive program than what they are undertaking.

We await their suggestions, their positive alternatives. Let's not just continue, as they have been doing, to blame Ot ta wa. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. HO N. DO UG GO URLAY (Swan River): Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the Annual Report of the Communities Economic Development Fund for the year endi ng March 31, 19 79 . MR. SPEAKE R: Order. Order please. I would hope that we allo w the orderly process of debate in the Chamber. The Honourable Minister of Cultural Affairs. HO N. NORMA L. PRICE (Assiniboia): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to table the Tenth Annual Report of the Manitoba Arts Council for the year ending March 31 , 19 79. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HO N. GE RALD W. J. MERCIER (O sborne): Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the 52nd Annual Report of the Chief Inspector under The Liquor Control Act. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Government Services. HO N. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I have the pleasure of tabling the Annual Report for the year 1979, of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation. MR. SPEAKE R: Notices of Motion ••. Introduction of Bills . ORAL QUESTIONS MR.

SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. JAY CO WAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister responsible for the Emergency Measures Organization. Can the Minister indicate what role the Emergency Measures Organization is playing in respect to the train derailment and subsequent hazardous chemical contamination that is occurring outside of McGregor? And in specific, can the Minister indicate if the EM O is monitoring and evaluating the situation and will their report be made public upon receipt of it? MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable First Minister. MR. LY ON : Mr.

Speaker, if I may take the opportunity to respond to my honourable friend's question, the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs and the Environment has been on the scene of the train derailment at McGregor since this morning. He should be back in the House by 3:30 or 3:45 this afternoon and at that time he will be asking permission of the House to make a Ministerial Statement on that situation, which I trust will cover my honourable friend's questions, and any others, that may arise. MR. CO WAN: My question then, Mr. Speaker, is in response to that.

Will the opposition be afforded an opportunity to reply to that statement at the time that it is made? With that assurance we will await the Minister s report. - 649 -

Tuesday , II March 19 80 MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWL EY : Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister. In vie w of the StatCan release this morning of unemploym ent figures -- usually , Mr. Speaker, we receive a copy from the Minister. I believe he's already distributed copies of the details of the StatCan changes. But in vie w of the fact that the StatCan statistics released this morning indicate an increase in Manitoba's une mploy ment rate to 7 .1 percent, the sh arpest increase, Mr.

Speaker, I believe of any province in Canada, my question to the First Minister is, what action does he intend to undertake and to initiate on behalf of his government in order to ensure an improved employment picture in the province of Manitoba? MR. LYON : Mr. Speaker, there are two observations on my honourable friend's question. Number one, the statistics that we have received this morning sho w a one month change, not a long term change in the unemployment figures in Manitoba at all. Number two, Mr.

Speaker, the rate of job creation in Manitoba over the past two years or so has been consid erably greater than it was under my honourable friend's jurisdiction prior to October of 19 77. So the rate of job creation in the private sector, where most of the jobs are now being created - not in the non-productive public sector where they were mostly created under my honourable friends -- the rate of job creation, Mr. Speaker, in the private sector is much in advance of what it was when my honourable friends were in offi ce.

We, of course, are not satisfied to see even monthly increases but these do not in any way suggest a trend. In fact, one would have to wait for a three to four month period to determine whether or not there had been any trend that had occurred. But we realize, Mr. Speaker, that this is traditionally a time when unemploy ment statistics do tend to take a bit of a blip. They are approximately the same as they were at this ti me last year. We're monitoring the condition closely and, Mr.

Speaker, the best guarantee I can give to my honourable friend and through him to the people of Manitoba is that we will continue to utilize those sensible policies with respect to governments role that will encourage the creation of more jobs in Manitoba as we have been doing for the last two years . MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, first I would like to correct a statistic that was used in my question. The increase is from 4.8 to 5.8, an increase of 1 percentage point. The statistic that I used was in reference to the City of Winnipeg's unemployment rate which is, of course, higher. The First Minister, Mr.

Speaker, made reference to the labour force figures and increasing the number of jobs within the Manitoba labour force, and my quest ion to the First Minister, is whether or not he can confirm that from February ls t of 1979 to February ls t, 198 0, the increase in the employ ment labour force in Manitoba was but I, 000 compared to an increase of 13 ,000 between February ls t, 197 8 and February ls t, 197 9. In vie w of the fact, Mr.

Speaker, that the trend appears to not be improving in Manitoba but appears to be worsening, does the First Minister propose any step s immediately in order to deal with a situation by which the job creation has weakened rather than improved trendwise in Manitoba? MR. LYON : Mr. Speaker, I'm not closely familiar with the statistic and I didn't quite understand what my hono urable friend was saying about employm ent increase. I'll be happy to check that figure. But to reiterate to him, Mr.

Speaker, that the rate of job employment increase in Manitoba which he has never acknowledged and we don't necess arily expect that he would, has been on the order of at least double what it was in the last two years of the administrat ion of which my honourable friend was a member. If he wants to improve on that , go ahead. MR. PAWL EY: Mr. Speaker, I had hoped that I could have realized some response from the First Minister as to steps, proposals, legislative change in order to ensure a turnabout in the situation rather than a continuation of harping back to 197 6 and 1977 .

I can't force the First Minister to respond but I would welcome so me response from the First Mini ster as to whether there are any programs that will be proposed during this session to relieve as against the increasing unemployment situati on and the worsening job situation in the Province of Manitoba. MR . SPEAKE R: The Honourable Min ister of Labour. - 650 -

Tuesday , 11 March 1980 HO N. KEN Mac MASTER (Tho mpson): Well, Mr. Speaker, first of all I am glad to see that the member corrected his figure of 7 .1. He was talking about actuals which we have never used in the prov ince for a good period of ti me. We're al ways talking about the seasonal, and I say to him that 5.8 is a particular figure, and that the rise is one percent, and the rise was certainly not appreciated by anyone. The number of 5 .8 percent is exactly what it was last year, being the lo west it was si nce February of 19 76. You may recall, Mr.

Speaker, in the fall of 1978 , when the unemployment rate started to stab ilize and in fact got lo wer. We are ... MR. SPEAKE R: Order, order please. The Honourable Leader of the Opposi tion on a point of order. MR. PAWLEY : Mr. Speaker, if the Honourable Minister is issui ng a statement, could we have copies of the sta tement? MR. SPEAKE R: Order please. I understand the Honourable Minister of Labour is answering a quest i on that was asked by the Leader of the Opposi tion. MR. PAWLEY : The questi on is to who's questi on he is ans wering. I am not aware of any questi on being di rected to ward him . MR.

SPEAKE R: The Honourable First Minister. MR. LY ON : Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Labour stood to ack nowledge a question that the Honourable Leader of the Opposi tion had addressed to me and he is ans wering it; he is the Minister of Labour. --(Interjection)-- Well, you ought to be happy to get an answer from any source. MR. SPE AKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. MacMASTER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I was under the impress i on that when the oppos it ion asked a question that the government should do every th ing in their po wer to supply as much information as relates to the quest ion as poss ible, and that's really the only reason I got up, Mr. Speaker. The members opposi te have al ways questi oned me on the rate of unemploy ment. They haven't questi oned very much in the last fe w months and in the last year or so, it's been very good, and th is is the only exceptional month that has taken one jump.

And I th ink you will find ••• --(Interjection)-- Well, go ahead and challenge it if you th ink it's out of order, or do you want to hear the ans wer; th at's what I'm tryi ng to get ••. Do you want to get up and say somethi ng? Does the Member for St. Boniface want to get up? Okay, get up. MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. LAURENT L. DESJ ARDINS: I would like to know, Sir, where he sees in the rules that he could admonish us and make a speech before ans wering any questi on.

You declare that the questi on was in order, that he was in order in ans wering the question, felt that he was asking a quest ion. I'm speaki ng on a po i nt of order and you don't ask questions on a point of order because you don't ask questi ons of the Speaker, in case you don't know. So, Mr. Speaker, I wish to say that we feel that he was definitely out of order and maybe now he'll ans wer the questi on. MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. MacMASTER: Well, to continue what I was try ing to do, Mr.

Speaker, which is si mply to ans wer the question of the Leader of the Oppos ition. --(Interjection)-- I intend to; good, if he wants the answer. Maybe he doesn't want the ans wer. The unemploy ment rate is identical to what it was last year, which of course we all consider to be unacceptable. The Leader of the Oppos it i on made reference to one month over month. He should know, I suspect that he knows, that during the course of the year, you get the average number of new created jobs by taking every month and averaging it out at the end of the year.

It happens, if he had done some more research, which of course, he didn't want to, he would have found that - 651 -

Tuesday , 11 March 1980 January over January, there was a 5,000 di fference; th i s month there is a 1,000 di fference, and as that works out during the course of the year, Mr. Speaker, you will find out at the end of the year, what the average mean is and what the total new employment was in the Province of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Oppos ition. MR . PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, it may be that there is some problem in hearing. My questi on was, what comprehensive programs does the government undertake to in itiate, to deal with the present si tuat ion.

I didn't request a st at ist ical elaboration. The honourable member hasn't apparently responded. MR. MacMASTER: Well, Mr. Speaker, the members oppos ite have a habit of standi ng up and making suggestions that leave the wrong impress ion. The member in fact did make reference to the fact of February over February, and I thought he would like to have hi mself corrected. You know, I am sure that he doesn't want to leave the wrong impress ion in th i s House, so I was just tryi ng to help hi m out, and he needs help, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for St. George. MR. BILL URU SKI: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker.

I would like to direct th i s questi on to the Minister of Labour, and ask him , in view of the fact that the unemployment situa tion in Interlake is getting worse, the stati st ics that are given to us are from 8.9 to 9.4 percent from last month to this month, and that does not include the remote and nat ive communities in the Interlake, can the Minister indicate whether he is prepared to announce that the Special Northern Employ ment Program and the Winter Works Program that were in effect pri or to 19 78 will be reinsti tuted to alleviate some of the hardshi ps in unemployment that Interlake no w faces? MR.

MacMASTER: I th ink, Mr. Speaker, we should be look ing at long-term permanent jobs rather than short- term make-work jobs. MR. URU SKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Could the Minister of Labour indicate to us what type of sol uti ons he has for long-term jobs for the people of the Interlake who want to work and who do not want to receive welfare - instead of taking money for noth ing, put people to work, Mr. Speaker? What sol ut ions has the Minister got? MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Speaker, there is a large variety of programs that are in effect which can help the people in the Interlake areas, so it can help people in other area in the Province of Manitoba. MR. UR USKI: Mr. Speaker, si nce the Minister is being very vague in that matter, is hi s program to export people to Alberta, or is he prepared to tell the people of the Interlake what kind of long-term programs for job opportunities there is, that hi s government has? MR . MacMASTER: Well, Mr. Speaker, there is no program in place in any jurisdi ction in Canada to export people to Alberta, but I th ink most Canadians, Mr.

Speaker, appreciate the fact of what's taking place in Alberta and the sooner that the oil fields produce a li ttle more, the better off our country will be. MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. SAUL CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, as was stated, we can't force an ans wer, but we could at least ask that if there is no ans wer to be given, it be clear that it's not given.

So I will ask the Minister of Labour, if as he says a year ago, the unemployment rate was unacceptable, and that's what he said, what is he going to do no w to correct the situa tion, having had a year's experience of an unacceptable unemployment rate as of February, 19 79? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure what an unacceptable rate is in anybody's terminology, be it one percent or two percent or no percent. The fact, Mr. Speaker, that unemploy ment rises in the middle of winter is nothi ng new in Manitoba; it's - 65 2 -

Tuesday , 11 March 1980 noth ing new si tt ing in th is House today. Last year at th is

part icular ti me there was a rise in unemployment the same as it is today . Whoever makes reference to the absolutely unacceptable unemployment rate in Manitoba last year, the unemployment rate in Manitoba last year certainly wasn't one that you could be proud of but it wasn't one you could be ashamed about. It's st ill the th ird lo west in Canada, and probably over the course of the year, it averaged out to be the best in three years, so it certainly wasn't a bad year in unemployment last year. And I don't th ink any government, Mr.

Speaker, regardless of what the party is, any government , should make a bunch of reactionary statements to one particular month, which reaches a hi gh in the course of the last si xteen months. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, just to clarify, does the Minister no w say that the February unemployment rate is acceptable? Is he changing the wording that he used earlier today when he sa i d it was unacceptable last year and this year? Is it now acceptable to hi m, and that no program is required to adjust to th is problem? MR.

MacMASTER: I don't know whether to use the word unacceptable or not appreciated, or not liked, whatever the case may be. Just to reiterate what I sa id, during the course of the winters in this country , unemploy ment has always risen. I think the Member for St. John might even agree with that. It is the best right now that it has been si nce 19 76. Certainly we intend to work harder at that.

I th ink we've been working with the constructi on industry and with the trades, and if you follo wed what they sa i d just recently - and I th ink the release is probably four or five days old - that this is by and large a far better winter for the construction industry and the trades, than they had a year ago. And let's hope that next year it's so mewhat better. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. RONA LD McB RYDE: Mr. Speaker, a questi on to the same Minister.

I th ink the Mi nister would acknowledge that there are winters in Canada, and that's why we have somethi ng called season ally-adjus ted rates, that the rates are adjusted for that fact already , so we do have an increase in the seasonally-ad justed rates. My questi on to the Minister, Mr. Speaker, is, is what representat ions, if any , has he made to Ottaw a to have the statistics ch anged and improved so that treaty Indians are sho w n on the unemployment stati stics?

Has he made any representati ons to Ottaw a in that regard, and what progress is being made to bring that segment of our populati on into the stati sti cs? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Speaker, I und erstand the questi on. The Member for The Pas raised it, I th ink, probably a year ago now, and I told hi m at that particular ti me that we would be in contact with the federal government, which we were. Subsequently there was an election.

In addition to that, I was in contact with the new government, now there's been another election, and the only th ing that I can say to him is that I will have to follo w it up with the member that happens to be from Winnipeg here. He is the Minister now responsi ble for those type of th ings. MR. McB RYD E: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Minister in his representations to Otta w a - so far unsuccessful, but hope fully they will be succ essful in the future - in his representations to Ot ta wa, he has pointed out the problem that we have in Manitoba, because the provinc ial government has cut back on employment programs for those communities of the type I am talk ing about, and that federal winter works programs, federal lead programs, are calculated on the basis of the unemployment figures. In hi s representations to Ottaw a, has he made those facts known to Ot ta w a in th is regard? MR.

MacMASTER: Well, without accepting the preface to the questi on, there are those, and rm sure the oppos it ion has used the same sort of argument, but there are those across our country and in so ciety that say a lot of the make-work programs were altering the true figure of the unemployment rates in th is country. MR . McBR YDE: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister then, si nce he is certainly not willing to involve hi mself or his govern ment in any speci al programs to meet the urgent need in Northern Manitoba and in the remote communities, I wonder then if the Minister would - 653 -

Tuesday , 11 March 19 80 cons ider taking a $300,000 profit from the sale of the construction company that created 30 jobs in Northern Manitoba, whether he would consider taking that $300,000 clear profit to the Government of Manitoba, and reinvesting that in long-term jobs in Manitoba. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Inkster. MR. SIDNEY GREEN: Mr. Speaker, Pd like to address a question to the Minister in charge of Corrections.

Approximately two weeks ago, I asked in the House as to the status of a 32 -year old mother of four children, who was sentenced to nine months in prison for having di verted welfare funds to recreational projects in her community, and I asked whether the Minister could tell us as to whether this woman has been facilitated in such a way that she could be with her four children , in the same way as Clarence Campbell is able to be free after spending one day in jail for bribing public officials. MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HO N. GEORGE MIN AKER (St. James): Mr.

Speaker, the individual in question is presently in the Portage Institute for Women, and has the same opportunity to have visito rs as any of the other inmates. MR . GREE N: Well, Mr. Speaker, I thank the honourable member for expressing Christian charity that this woman can have visito rs like anybody else. I want to know whether the Minister is able to look into this case to see whether she can be given such considerat ion as will permit her to be with her four children. MR. MINAK ER: Mr.

Speaker, I can advise the honourable member that her la wyer, I believe, has applied for parole with the National Parole Board, which he know s is under someone els e's jurisdiction. MR . SPEAKE R: The Honourable Member for Inkster with a final supplementary. MR . GREEN: Mr. Speaker, is there anybody on the front benches of the government that will take an interest in getting this woman out of prison, which is not a difficult thing to do. It is available, it has been used for other citizens. Is there anybody who will do something to get this woman out of prison? MR. MINAKER: Mr.

Speaker, the honourable member is fully aware that I, as the Minister of Corrections, is responsible for carrying out the wishes of the judicial syste m, and this is what we are doing. MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR S. JUNE WESTBURY: Mr. Speaker, my quest ion is address ed to the Minister of Health. Would the Minister confirm that the proposal that was developed by the Lakeshore District Health Board and the Health Services Commission was for a clinic at Lundar, a 20-bed addition to Eriksdale Hospital, a 20 -bed addition to Ashern Hospi tal and a clinic in the Gypsu mville area?

Also, that the Board Members of the Health Board accepted in good faith, that whatever was agreed upon between the mselves and the Health Services Commission would, indeed, be the final outcome? MR . SPEAKER: Order, order please. I believe that the questions asked by the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge have been asked in this Cha mber before by other members. It was probably a repetitive question and serves ... The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR S.

WESTBURY: My supplementary then is, is it true that in order to achieve these goals, the United Church which owned the Eriksdale Hospital relinquis hed, again in good faith, relinquished ownership to the government as required by the government, sold the nurses' home, put in a sew er and turned over the doctors' residence as part of their co mmitment to Eriksdale addition? And is it als o true that the Board was told that any 20 -bed facility would have to be an attachment to another hospital and could not be a free-standing building, a free-standing building had to be a 40 -bed facility? - 6 54 -

Tuesday, 11 March 19 80 MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L.R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Yes, Mr. Speaker, essentially that is true. would point out to the honourable member that it's also true that there was a change of government on October 11, 1977 . MRS. WESTBURY: In view of the answer, I have a further supplementary to the Minister of Government Services, Mr. Speaker.

Will he assure the House that he has never approached the First Minister, or the Minister of Health, or the Manitoba Health Services Commission, or any other person or board with a view to moving the personal care home from Eriksdale to his constituency? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Government Services. MR. ENN S: Mr. Speaker, I'd be happy to answer that question. I, like undoubtedly 56 other members elected to this Ch amber to represent their constituents in the best way possible, have done and will continue to do everything I can do on behalf of my constituents. And I'm very proud of that fact.

I think most members would be proud of that fact if they have some accomplishments. I can also indicate, in direct response to that question, that I have never suggested that a facility should not be built in Eriksdale. Indeed, I'm very pleased and flattered that the Minister has already indicated an expanded facility, expanded services to the northwestern

section of the Interlake, of which I am part of and my constituents are part of, and that 's done because of the compassion and the concern of this government for delivering that kind of service. So, Mr. Speaker, speaking on behalf of the Interlakers, that the Honourable Member for St. George represents, we can now rest assured that we will have, not the half promises of the previous administration made prior to an election, but indeed the actual fact, the construction of improved, expanded facilities to look after those so much in need, namely the elderly of our part of the country. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Transportation. HO N. DON ORCHARD (Pembina): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, some days ago It ook a •.. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for St. Boniface on a point of order. MR. DESJARD INS: Mr. Speaker, the last spokesman said that it was a promise made by the former government just before an election. I'd like to point out to him that the five-year program was announced in 19 76, at least as much time as we'll have before the next election, and I think this is absolutely wrong. MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please. Order please.

May I point out that differences of opinion, differences of fact, are exactly that , and do not constitute a point of order. The Honourable Minister of Transportation. MR. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Some days ago, the Honourable Member for Elmwood drew to my attention an error of rather grave magni tude in the Department of Motor Ve hicles' Branch, and his concern was how, in fact, one resident of Thompson, Manitoba could have received not 1 but 10 identical registration forms for the same vehicle.

And because the Honourable Member for El mwood was indeed concerned about this grave situation, I have had it followed up, Mr. Speaker, and I would like to further clarify the response I give to the honourable member on the day he posed the question. First of all, Mr. Speaker, there were not 10 identical registrations sent to the gentleman at Thompson. What in fact was sent to the gentleman in Thompson was one original registration plus nine duplicate registrations. Now, Mr. Speaker, I would further like to explain how this grave error occurred. Mr.

Speaker, I will forward this material to the Honourable Memb er for Elmwood so that he can rest assured that such a horrendous error cannot happen again. - 655 -

Tuesday, 11 March 19 80 In the corner of the app lication form for registrations of vehicles in the Province of Manitoba, which are made out, Mr. Speaker, upon ap plication for registrations of vehicles in this province, there is outlined by marker pen, two columns. Now as I mentioned in my answer that day, Mr. Speaker, •.. MR. SPEAKER: Order. Order please. May I suggest to the Honourable Minister that his answer be brief and to the point. The Honourable Minister of Transportation. MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, I certainly will attempt to make my answer very brief and to the point.

In the corner, which I will note to the Honourable Member for El mwood, there is a box "For Office Use Only" in which the registration year of the vehicle is entered. In this case it was a 1979 registration year. So the last numerical entry was nine. Immediatly adjacent to that box, Mr. Speaker, is a box which says: "If the customer requires duplication registration or registrations, enter the number here." Inadvertently, Mr. Speaker, my keypunch operator entered nine for the year of registration plus nine in the duplicate column. Now, Mr.

Speaker, an error such as that, I will admit is strictly human error, and we have within Motor Ve hicles Branch considerable checks and balances to assure that this type of situation does not exist and waste taxpayer money. But in this particular case, Mr. Speaker, it is not unusual for duplicate registration slips to be requested by the original owner. And in this case when nine were requested, it could well be that the gentleman had a wife and eight kids. MR. SPEAKER: Order. Order please. The Honourable Member for Kildonan. MR.

PE TER FOX: I believe you admonished the Honourable Minister and told him to cut it brief, and I believe he is abusing the admonishment. I wish you would tell him again that he's too long. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kildonan's point is well taken. The Honourable Minister of Transportation. MR. ORCHARD: I will be finishing very shortly, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: I hope it's very short. MR. ORCHARD: So that under ordinary circumstances, Mr.

Speaker, where such an error in keypunching is done, we have checks and balances to prevent that, but since duplicatio ns are periodically requested, the error went unnoticed and, as a matter of fact, nine duplicate registration forms did in fact go out to the gentleman in Thompson. And, Mr. Speaker, I want to ass ure the Member for El mwood that such a situation will not happen again unless a similar error occurs, and I want to thank him, Mr. Speaker, for pointing out to myself the largest error that my department has made to date. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. DOE RN: Mr.

Speaker, I might say that the largest mistake made in the depaqrtment to date was the appointment of the present Minister. I want to just ask a couple of questions - and I do so with some trepidation - on the last point. Is the Minister seriously suggesting that the person may have requested duplicates, and tha t no matter what the request for duplicates is, that it will be honoured by the department? And it was only because there was a request for duplicates that there was a mistake made? Is the Minister seriously suggesting that? MR. ORCH ARD: Mr.

Speaker, obviously the short explanation I gave was not sufficient to bring the facts of the case fully to the Member for El mwood. What I in fact said, was that - and he now has the application form in front of him - inadvertently the number for the registration year, namely, 9, was punched not only in the - 65 6 -

Tuesday, 11 March 1980 square "for office use" but also in the duplication thing, and inadvertently the nine duplications went out. Now that is not a situation, Mr. Speaker, which my department normally cheeks. MR. SPEAKER: Order. Order please. I believe that suffices for the Honourable Member for Elmwood. A supplementawry question? MR. DO ERN: Mr. Speaker, I would then ask the Minister, when duplicates are requested, are they each then sent out in individual envelopes? Because these were 10 individual envelopes and 10 separate letters that were sent out.

Or would you not consider putting them all in one envelope? MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, that is indeed a serious consideration to myself as Minister. And, Mr. Speaker, should it be eeonomieally possible to stop the computer in process and take the nine duplicate registrations requested and put them in one envelope and pay a member of my department the costs of doing that, as compared to the rather automated and efficient costs by which the computer serves us, Mr. Speaker, I will indeed investigate that.

And should there be a cost saving from the duplication of 9 by 17 cents for postage, I will indeed implement such a plan, post haste. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for El mwood with a final supplementary. MR. DO ERN: Mr. Speaker, my final question is simply this: I don't care what the error is. I don't care how the error was arrived at. I don't care who's responsible. I asked the Minister earlier - and he didn't answer that - he seems to argue that this is the only instance of mismanagement in the department - I suggest that if this happened in this instance, there are probably dozens of others.

I ask the Minister whether he's prepared to argue that this is the only error that his department made in the past year, because that seems to be what he is suggesting. MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, since the Honourble Member for El mwood adequately paraph rased his question as to the fact that he didn't care who made the mistake, how it was made or what, why did he ask the question, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon East. MR. LE ONARD S. EVAN S: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to address a question to the Honourable Minister of Labour pertaining to the unemployment situation in Winnipeg.

Since the unemployment rate in Winnipeg, aeeording to this morning's news release, jumped from 5. 7 percent on a seasonally adjusted basis, which takes into aeeount the winter season, to 7 .1 percent, which is close to the national average in Ca nada, Mr. Speaker, will the Minister be prepared to work through Cabinet to undertake special employment projects for the City of Winnipeg? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. MaeMASTER: Not at this particular moment, Mr. Speaker, and I don't want to spend a lot of time repeating what I said.

We would hope that this is what is considered a peak high and that that will taper off rather rapidly, as it has done in the previous years. MR. EVAN S: Mr. Speaker, we do not have the details on other cities or regions within the province.

However, we do have information on the City of Winnipeg and therefore, in view of the facts that it is very serious, much higher than the average for the Province of Manitoba, I am wondering whether - and I guess I should address this then to the Minister of Eeonomie Development - whether the Minister of Eeon omie Development is prepared to undertake any action plan to stimulate industrialization in the City of Winnipeg, to provide meaningful long-term jobs in this city of ours, which contains over half the population of this province. - 65 7 -

Tuesday, 11 March 1980 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Economic Development. HON. J. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Speaker, manufacturing in the Province of Manitoba is up 34 percent in 1979 over 19 78 . The predictions of manufacturing by the Conference Board and by Statistics Canada and by the industry and commerce of the federal government being up at least 34 percent, or close to 40 percent in 19 80 will be reached. MR. EVANS : Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Honourable Minister would clarify his statement, because he says "up 34 percent". He doesn't explain exactly what will be up 34 percent.

Is he talking about jobs in the manufacturing sector? Is he talking about the value of shipments? Is he talking about investment?. But regardless, Mr. Speaker, the facts are that the seasonally adjusted data indicate that we have a very serious unemployment situation in the City of Winnipeg, 7 .1 percent. So given that fact, would the government be prepared, whether it be the Minister of Economic Dev elopment, the Minister of Labour or the Premier, or anyone, are you prepared to do anything to help alleviate the unemployment situation in the Ci ty of Winnipeg? MR. JOHNSTON : Mr.

Speaker, I don't know what can help alleviate the unemployment situation in Winnipeg or this province, better than manufacturing. As far as the service industry is concerned, there is no need for a wai tress. There is no need for anybody working anywhere unless you're manufacturing your raw resources or manufacturing and producing materials. That creates jobs in the whole province, Mr. Speaker, and that's what we have been doing in the Province of Manitoba, it has been built. The 7 .1 is much better than the national average, the same as our increase in manufacturing and manufacturing jobs. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Rupertsland. MR. HARVE Y BO STRO M: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister responsible for Manpower in the Province of Manitoba. In view of the ex treme high levels of unemployment in northern Manitoba, where most of the unemployed are not even included in the statistics that have been provided to the House and to the press in Manitoba, in fact where the unemployment in many remote native communities approaches 75 percent, levels which are scandalous in anybody's terms, Mr.

Speaker, does the government have any programs or policies to propose to deal with this very serious situation? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. MacMASTER: I would like to answer two questions if I may, Mr. Speaker, taking the chance of being chastised from the members opposite. The Member for Brandon asked about what we were doing in the City of Winnipeg, if anything, and then I'll answer the other question. We had been carrying on discussions with the construction industry and the tradesmen in an effort to see if there couldn't be a new type of method implemented in the Province of Manitoba,

whereas you're tendering jobs at different times of the year in an effort to get some of the construction industry work carrying on into the course of the winter. Some of it did work to some degree this year, but I think that could be im proved substantially. To the Member for Rupertsland, I think he is aware of a good number of the Special ARDA Program and the efforts that have been put forward in the last year on that.

If he wishes to direct that question as to the successes or the types of programs that's in place under that particular program, I'm sure the Minister responsible could certainly help him out with it. The CE DF program is working rather well in the past particular year and maybe he could get some facts and figures on those two particular programs. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Perhaps the member can ask those questions tomorrow, the time for question period having expired. We'll proceed with Orders of the Day. - 658 -

Tuesday , 11 March 1980 ORD ERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. MER CIER: Mr. Speaker, I move, se conded by the Minister of Economic Development that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Kildonan on a point of order. MR. FOX: I understood the Honourable First Minister to indicate that there would be a statement later on. Will both committees be called into the House at that time? MR. SPE AKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR.

LYON: Well, Mr. Speaker, I'm sure we'd be prepared to meet the reasonable wishes of the House in that regard. The time indication that I had was that the Minister of the Environment would be back around 3:45. If it would be the wish of the House, by agreement, to adjourn briefly to hear his statement and then to carry on, we can . . • --(Interjection)-- 4:3 0? If 4:30 is more acceptable, that would seem to meet everybody's convenience. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MO TION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, with the Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair for the Department of Labour and Manpower and the Honourable Member for Virden in the Chair for the Department of the Attorney-General. CO NCU RRENT CO M MITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPP LY - ATTOR NEY-GENERAL CHAIRMAN, Mr. Morris McGregor (Virden): Order. Resolution 17, No. 3., Boards and Comm issions. The Member for Burrows. MR. BEN HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister one question.

If he could perhaps explain and justify the reduction in the level of support for Boards and Commissions - and within this area, I feel that there are two very important, or wi thin this appropriation, are two very important areas of activity , na mely, the Law Reform Commission and the Human Rights Commission, which were initiated by the New Democratic Party government. And I think bo th the commissions are well-accepted by the people of Manitoba, and they have certainly demonstrated their effectiveness and the need for them wi thin our society, wi thin our system of government. And yet, Mr.

Chairman, we do see a reduction in the level of support which I feel must be reflected in a reduction in the level of service offered by the two boards and commission s. And I say that there is a reduction in the level of support because, if we look back to the last year that the New Democratic Party was government, and the esti mates approved by it, the level of support for the two commissions was $1. 2 million, in fact, $1 ,217 ,000 .00 . Now, this year, we're looking at a figure of $1 ,490,000.00. Now, Mr.

Chai rman, this is the third year after the year that we were government, because the first figure was for the year ending March 31, 1978 , and now we're looking at the year ending March 31, 1981. So over that period of time, Mr. Chai rman, there was an in flation at the rate of about 10 percent a year. So applying that, it would seem that just to maintain the same level of service, the government would require somewhere in the order of $1 ,600,000.00 . But just to maintain the same level of service, Mr.

Chairman, here in fact we see something less than $1.5 million which obviously, given the inflation factor, must be buying less in terms of manpower, in terms of whatever other services, goods and services the two Commissions require. So obviously, this must mean a reduction in the level of service - 659 -

Tuesday , 11 March 19 80 offered to the people of Manitoba; by reason of a reduction, over the three-year period, of the level of support , of financial support offe red the two boards and commissions. And perhaps that, to some extent, Mr. Chair man, explains some of the dissatisfaction that we had heard voiced over the year, in one of the commissions in particular . namely the second one. We'll come to that when we deal with that speci fi cally. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR . MER CIER: Mr. Chairman, I take it we're on Item 3.( a). MR. CHAIRMAN: Right. MR .

MER CIER: On the Manitoba Law Reform Commission. MR . HANUSCHAK: If we are on Ite m 3.(a), Mr. Chairman, then it makes the point that I am attempting to make all the stronger. Because with respect to the Manitoba Law Reform Commission, the 1978 appropriat ion of the last year that we were government, was $179 ,600 and now it's only $198, 200.00 . So what I had said in relation to the total appropriation for both commissio ns, applies to the two parts.

So going on the basis of the 1978 appropriation, if there was justification for the level of staffing that it had, for the types of expenditures that it incurred at that time in holding hearings, and so forth, and as I recall it in the first year that this party was government, I think this Ministe r said that he could not identify any fat in his department; that he couldn't identif y any leakage or wastage. So I take it that whatever was on track at that time, the Minister was satisfied with it, and certainly insofar as the two commissions are concerned.

So he was satisf ied that there was justification for the expenditure of the $179 ,000 in 1978 , and then applying the inflation factor to that, over which this government has no control, this figure should be well over $200,000, well over $2 00,000 and not $198,0 00.00 . So, referring specifica lly to 3.(a), the Manitoba Law Reform Commission, I suggest to you, Mr.

Chair man, that given the appropriation shown here in 198 0 dollars as co mpared to what was shown in the 1977 -7 8 Estimates in 1977 do llars, that there is a reduction in the level of support and hence that must reflect a reduction in the level of service offered the people of Manitoba. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. ME RCIER: Mr.

Chairman, I'm getting the actual figures, but my offici als indicate that the year that the Member for Bur rows refers to, 19 77-78, $1 79 ,000, it's estimated that the Law Reform Commission probably at a maximum, spent two-thirds of that amount of money in that fiscal year. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, I wanted to deal with the Law Reform Commission, in particular in regard to certain suggestions they had in regard to the funding of public elections and the operation of election procedures, and the most extraordinary co mments and actions of the Attorney-General last Octob er, where he int erfered ..• MR. MER CIER: Mr. Chair man, on a point of order. MR. CHAI RMAN: A point of order. The Honourable Minister. MR . MER CIER: Mr.

Chairman, there will be ample opportunity for the Member for Elm wood to comment on my actions, if he wishes, pe rhaps under Minister's Salary, but I don't think it is appropriate under the Law Reform Commission. MR. DOE RN: Mr. Chairman, on the point of order. It couldn't be more appropriate because I will give you a couple of direct quotations that, going back to October in regard to this matter. The Attorney-General said on October 11 th, reported in the Free Press, that he would like to see an independent authority set up to police election procedures.

Such an authority recommended by Manitoba's Law Reform Commission in 1977 would have pow ers to prosecute election act infractions. That certainly is directly relevant. - 660 -

Tuesday , 11 March 1980 Similarly, it mentions that he has been talking about revisi ons to The Election Act, and he said: "I would be very reluctant to impose any restrictio ns on political freedoms. You would only go in that direction if a clear and important abuse was taking place. The Law Reform Commission recommended against restraint in that area." So it's quite clear, Mr.

Chairman, that this matter does correctly fall under this item in the Esti mates because of the nature of the recommendations, because of the comments of the Attorney-General, and because of the possibility of amendments to The Election Act. I can think of no place that is more appropriate in the Estimates in that regard. And I remind you that, in the midst of the by-elections, that the Attorney-General decided to call a press conference in this building and, sitting beside Mr.

Harold Piercy, he decided that he would make state ments, both as Attorney-General of Manitoba in regard to election infractions, and by-the -by , secondarily, in his judgement as the campaign manager for the Conservative by-election camp aign in the province. And I said at that ti me that I believe that he was mixing and confusing and abusing his rights and privileges as a Cabinet Minister. He was pretending on one hand to speak as Attorne y-General, and on the other hand, he was attempting to promote the campaign of Harold Piercy.

And I recall, at that particular time, being in northern Manitoba, and being absolutely thunderstruck by the headlines given to the Attorney-General - and then, of course, the criticism which correctly foll owed. Now, for example, at that ti me he held out pamphlets of the New Democratic candidate Vic Schroeder ... --(Interjectio n)-- I'm so rry, at that time he was Vic Schroeder. He then became the MLA for Ross mere. --(Interjection)-- And he ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Order. MR. DOERN: The Attorney-General said that in his judgment these campaign pamphlets were improper, or well, in fact , he is much stronger than that.

Those are my words. His words were much stronger. He said that, "This was a campaign of fear, smear and innuendo." And I think all of us know that things are pretty rough in Ross mere. Mr. Chairman, he then, you know, held this pamphlet up - and I can tell you that I was working in the campaign and I was one of those who delivered those pamphlets and when he made those charges, I thought, "My God, maybe there is something wrong with these pamphl ets." --(Interjection)-- That's right.

And I looked at the pamphlet carefully , and attempted to ascertain whether this was, in fact, some deliberate attempt by the MLA for Ross mere, then the candidate, to mislead people. This was the big point of the Attorney-General, and in my own examination, I could see nothing wrong with th em. There was no particular attempt in my judgment to mislead. There were photostated headlines and there were articles, or commentary, or whatever it was underneath.

I don't beli eve that there was an attempt by the people who produce this pamphlet to suggest that the quotes below were verbatim quotes from the newspaper, and I don't think it was essential that they were or that they were not. I just think they were irrelevant. So the Attorney-General made a big thing of this, and he said that he wanted to do something about this, that he was considering, as Attorney-General, to prevent the publication of opini on polls.

That was one thing because there were some very uncomplimentary opinion pol ls being produced in the daily papers, and he said that he might establish a new body to regulate campaign literature. Well, that sounded a lot like Judy LaMarsh to me. I remember Judy LaMarsh, one of her brainwaves in the early 196 0s was a truth squad. You might recall this, that your leader, John Diefenbaker, in her judgment, told lies and she was going to form a little group and go around the country and monitor the statements made by the Conservative Prime Minister and issue correcting truthf ul and factual state ments.

Well, of course, this thing was preposterous, and Ron Gostrick in his - what is that thing called? --(Interjection)-- Yes, the Canadian Intelligence Service. And if ever there was an unintelligent, biased, racist, lunatic organization, of course, it was his. MR S. WESTBURY: Judy LaMarsh is not li ke that. MR. DOERN: Well, if the MLA for Wolseley would like to come and defend Judy LaMarsh and her actions - sorry, Fort Rouge -- then I would invite her to come and participate. Mr. Chairman, we want to talk about some of these particular issues. I'd like to give the Attorney-Gen eral some examples of polls.

I don't know if he still has this idea in mind or not. - 661 -

Tuesday , 11 March 19 80 MR. ME RCIER: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. MR . CHAffiM AN: The Honourable Minister. MR. MERCIE R: Mr. Cha irman, I don't dispute the right of the Member for Elmwood to raise his concerns at an appropriate time. But when we're considering the Esti mates of the Manitoba Law Reform Commission, I don't see the relevance of his comments. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I think we discussed this a few minutes ago, and I spoke on that point and you allowed me to proceed. So, I intend to •.• MR. CHAffiM AN: I'll ask all committee members to try to stick within the line because ...

The Me mber for El mwood. MR. DOERN: I believe this is commentary on the general suggestions in regard to election procedures, in regard to election spending, in regard to en forcement of The Elections Act, in regard to possible amendments to the Elections Act, and I believe that I'm speaking correctly and strictly wi thin those li mitations. If the A. G. wants to talk about phoney polls, I want to give him a terrific example from campaign literature from the last federal election in Manitoba, from Inez Trueman, who was a Member of the House, who had the follow ing two paragraphs in an

article in the Trueman Report, which was distributed by the P.C . Party, and it was called, "Survey shows Trueman Leading." I assume that this is the kind of polling that the Attorney-General finds impossible to stomach, because I regarded this as preposterous. It said here in this campaign report: "Survey shows Tr ueman leading." And then here's two paragraphs, one near the beginning: "A ccording to campaign officials .•• " MR . GREEN: What date is on that ? MR. DOERN: There's no date on this. MR . GREEN: Maybe she was leading on that date. MR. DOERN: No, there's a blank there.

It says, "Fill in the date." It says, "According to campaign officials," - this came out in the last week - "the survey indicated that of those sampled, they preferred Mrs. Trueman over her closest opponent by a margin of more than 10 percent." Right? And then it said, to wrap it up, because Lloyd Axworthy was, of course, rumoured to be offered a Cabinet position, so as not to be outdone, it said, "When asked about rumours of a Cabinet position, should she be elected" - you know, there was a lot of rumours about that - "Mrs.

Trueman said that any decision would be that of the Prime Minister, but her first concern would be to the constituen ts." So I'm saying, is that the kind of polling that the Attorney-General wants to ban? No details, no figures, no stat isti cs, no reference to any organization, just bold statement saying that so-and-so is leading and no more.

And I have to ask the Attorney-General where - rm not f amiliar with this particular statement of his during the by-election, but according to Francis Russell, at the ti me of the by-elections, the Attorney-General was denouncing smear tactics by the NDP one moment and turning around and labelling them communists on a television show the next. rm not familiar --(Interjection)- that could be a confusion. It could have been the Premier who made those co mments and not the Attorney-General. When it comes to printing errors, Mr . Chairman, I would give an example that affected the Member for Fort Rouge.

Because, you know, right after the Attorney-General made his statement, I think the next day, I think the MLA for Fort Rouge mentioned that the Progressive Cons ervative pamphlet contained a number of untruthful state ments. And, she, for instance, was described as living in the riding for only six months. She said that she had li ved there for six years. So, this was drawn to the attention of Hugh MacDonald, the Consesrvative candidate, and he said it was a printing error. A printing error, and everybody understands those printing errors. Those printers sometimes do things that they're not supposed to.

So the Attorney-General is going to offer, I guess, to proofread pamphlets for members of the opposition and members of the government. And he said that they had 10 ,000 leaflets scrapped and new ones printed. Well, we have to take his word for it, we don't know whether - 662 -

Tuesday , 11 March 1980 those pamphlets were recalled or how many were distributed. A hundred, he said, roughly were distributed in one poll. Then they discovered the error and they sent out retractions. Well, he certainly had the right idea. Now, whether that was done strict ly as suggested, we don't know. And then, when we want to talk about problems of pol itical parties, in terms of misleading or erroneous statements, one could go back to some of the campaign advertising used by the government when they were in oppos ition. In '77, for example, they had a TV ad and all of us remember that.

The famous blank cheque $4 million ad , where our government was accused of signing a cheque for Columbia Forest Products. -(Interjection)-- That was a good one, I mean it was quite impress ive, it was good TV. There was only problem, one problem, we couldn't remember signing it. The reason we couldn't remember was, we didn't sign it, the Tories signed it. It was a Conservative cheque and a Conservative advance and that was one example. Then there was the '73 pamphlet with the giant octopus with the tenacles grabbing the province for the state farm program.

I assume that's the kind of exaggeration and fals ehood and scare tactics that the Attorney-General is talking about when he wants to crack down on political pamphle ts. So he's going to ha ve to crack down on his party; he's going to have to crack down on some of his own candidates. He's going to have to look at some of the kinds of material that have gone out from the Progressive Cons ervative Party as well as the New De mocratic Party. I also attempted to get an opinion from the Chief Electoral Officer about some of the ads run by the MLA for River Heights, the new MLA for River Heights.

He's a businessman and he ran for months - he ran advertisements in the papers presumably to promote his business . These nice pictures - I don't have all of them but this one here, for Success/Angus, there were some in track suits and sweat suits. -(Interjection)- - Well, he looks better in pho tographs. He had a whole se ries of ads, Mr. Chairman, that ran for months. Now I am sure he would argue that this was to promote his business.

But it seemed quite evident to me, and I think to other people, that this was an attempt to promote himself because he was running in the by-election. -(Interjection)- Well, all right, what's wrong with that? Wh at's wrong with it is this, that if it's an attempt to circumvent the limit ation on election expenditures or if it's an attempt to do something to avoid legitimate campaign expenses then there is something wrong wi th it.

And I just say that anyone looking at these ads which were in a great variety, would, I think, understand, understand the fact that the candidate was putting hi mself forward, because if you looked at a lot of them I think you would have a hard ti me believing these were ads to promote a commercial busin ess college. It seems to me that young women looking through the papers would not believe this was an ad directed at them. --(Interjection)- Old women might be int erested. --(Interjection)-- Mr. Chairman, this is in praise of older women. So I think that these are interesting questions.

The Attorney-Ge neral said that he was going to do something about this. There was a reaction by the Winnipeg Tribune, as a matter of fact as well, because it was believed I think by some people that pressure had been put on the Tribune's editor and there was some discussion about whether the Minister of Finance, over lunch, had pressured Miss Harvey and the managing editor of the Tribune, or whether this was just a normal tete--8.-tete. That's French. Remember, I now have the right to speak in both languages.

Now, I know the Attorney-General doesn't speak French; I know that, because I recall when the Conservative government was first elected, that the reporters went to all the Tories and said, who speaks French? And the best, the best comment, the one that won the prize came from the Attorney-General; he said his mother spoke French. And that that was the closest that they could come was that one of the Ministers' mothers spoke French. Mr.

Chair man, I want to ask the Attorney-General whether he has abandoned the suggestions of his, whether he has given up the idea of establishing a truth squad, whether he has now decided in view of the overwhelming negative reaction of the media, of the opposition and of the public, to his proposals, whether he has given that up, or whether he still intends to proceed either on a personal basis or to establish some little body that he would appoint to regulate campaign lit erature; whether he intends to abandon the idea of blocking public opinion polls . And I might say on that point, Mr.

Chairman, that the banning of the publication of public opinion polls, I believe, would never be successful because you could not ban the taking or the commissioning of public opinion polls. So if you block their publication the results would certainly be known. The results could be made known and could be disseminated in other ways and I think would quickly become known to the public. - 663 -

Tuesday , 11 March 19 80 So I would be interested in hearing what the Attorney-General intends to do vis-a-vis his comments of last October in relation to the introduction of legislation or procedures in the Legislature. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Me mber for River Heights. MR. GARY FILMON: Mr. Cha irman, I wasn't originally going to speak on this partic ular item in the Estimates until the Me mber for El mwood indicated what some of the text of his remarks was going to be, and as members can appreciate, the Member for El mwood has seized upon his second major issue in this session of the Legislature.

The first being the identificati on of the nine copies of the Autopac applicatio ns that were sent out to a resident in Thompso n, and I don't intend to go further into that since I think the Minister of Highways adequately answ ered that , but he has, yes, he did a fantastic job, yes. But on the other hand, the Member for Elmwood has seized upon another major issue that of censorship of advertising and perhaps more appropriately , analysis of advertising in election ca mpaigns, and I am sure the Attorney-General wants to spend a great deal of time responding to that.

But if I may, I would just like to follow up on some of the remarks that he has made because I think they are very appropriate, that of false advertising, in particular, brochures. I reca l l in the particular one that he provided from the Member for Ross mere that there was some fo llow-up by the newspapers. I recall the editor of the Tribune admonishing candidates that they ought not to use portions of the Tribune wit hout permission in their ads, because in parti cular, a number of the references in this one bore no relation to the articles that appeared in the Tribune.

The headline reads, "Manitoba's Tax Rebates May Cease", the Tribune, Wednesday, September 19, 1979 ; and then the

article underneath was not extracted from that particular

article in the Tribune, in fact, it was a total fabrication and terribly misleading, terribly misleading. --(Interjection)- Whet her it was an

article or an editorial, the fact of the matter was that the information was not taken from the Tribune, only the headline was. Well, if that isn't a misleading endeavour, I don't know what is. Similarly, some of the portions of articles that were there. And as I say , the editor of the Tribune admonished candidates as a result of that. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ross mere on a point of order. MR. VIC SC HROEDE R: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair man, it may be privil ege or order. The fact of the matter is that what the member ... MR . MER CIER: On the point of order, Mr .

Chairman, a dispute as to facts is not a point of order or a point of privilege. MR. SCHR OEDE R: The Honourable Me mber for River Heights is alleging that that particular pamphlet , a particular secti on thereof, is one which is misleading because it is not an

article taken fro m the Tribune nor an editorial. That particular document in no way alleges that the statement contained to whi ch he refers is either an

article or an editorial from the Tribune. It does not come in quotation marks and I would ask the member to wi thdraw his state ment. I might also say, Mr. Cha irman, while I've got the chance, that from the appearance of all of these fine pamphlets I now know why I was 25 bucks over my spending li mit. I had to keep replacing these pamphlets that the Tories were taking into River Heights. MR . FILM ON : Mr.

Chairman, si nce the member wasn't here when I was so kindly provided wit h that by the Member for Elmwood, he can understand that the Member for Elmwood was just acceding to a request of mine to let me see it, and I was pointing out from it. You might ask him though, he indicated in the text of his discuss ion that he was handing them out in northern Manitoba. So that might be a source of your over-expenditure. MR. CHAIRMAN: Maybe I could just bring attention to the committee, because I do think we're running a li ttle bit off the item that we're on, Manitoba Law Reform Commission.

If we would just have more care, we'll get more ... MR . FILM ON : If I can then conclude, Mr. Chairman, the Me mber for Elmwood has seized upon the revelation that the Success/ Angus Commercial Co llege has used my - 66 4 -

Tuesday , 11 March 1980 phot ographs in advertising in the course of the campaign, and of course he wasn't interested in my business endeavours prior to my becoming a candidate. And I can understand that but, at the same ti me, there is ample evidence from all the newspapers, if he'd like to look through microfilms that our college has used both in pamphlets and in fact in newspaper advertising, my photograph or, in some cases, a sketch pho tograph dating back as far as 1975 . If he would li ke to see that he's more than welcome to it. But I understand that that doesn't cover his point.

I might also indicate that the limitations for overspending on campaigns, as was pointed out by the ot her successful candidates in those provincial by-elect ions who did indeed overspend, there were no penalties and it did not result in them being removed from office, or anything of that nature. So I can't understand any particular ulterior motive that I would have in having those as part of my campaign strategy. Thank you, Mr. Chair man. MR. MERCIE R: Mr. Chairman, just two brief points. The Member for Burrows referred to the budget for the Law Reform Commission in 1978 and 19 79 as being $179, 000 . 00.

In the Public Accounts for the year ended March 31, 1978 , the Manitoba Law Reform Commission is shown as having spent a total of $87,400.00. So it merely confir ms my previous advice to him that the moneys were not .•. In fact that would be almost less than half or about half of what was budgeted, which was • • . And part of the problem, I would point out, in those years, was the absence of the Chairman. Mr. Muldoon had, I think, left very early in the course of that fiscal year and that probably would have accounted for part of that underexpenditure. Secondly, Mr.

Chair man, with respect to the incisive remarks of the Me mber for El mwood, I would sim ply indicate to him that the Throne Speech indicated there would be amendments introduced to The Elections Act this year and I'm sure that will provide him for ample opportunity to continue his remarks and express his concerns on that piece of legislation when it's introduced in the House. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Burrows. MR . HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr . Chairman. Did not the Manitoba Law Reform Commission have a Vice-Cha irman? MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. MERCIE R: No, Mr.

Cha irman, there was no Vice-Chairman but there were different members of the board who carried on in the capacity of Acting Chairman. MR . HANUSCHAK: So then I would ask the Minister, Mr. Cha irman, in view of the fact that during that fiscal year the Law Reform Commission only spent approxi mately one-half, not quite one-half, of the amount which was appropriated it, could some of this reduction also be attributed to this government's restraint program, whic h the government prides itself in ? MR. MER CIER: Mr.

Chair man, officia ls point out that there were two positions that were carried in the Budget in that year that were never filled and have now been filled with the appointment of Dean Edwards, as Chairman of the Law Reform Commission, having taken office on July 1, 19 79. Those positions are now filled, many research posi tions. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Yes, Mr. Chairman, just on that point of the Chairman of the Law Reform Commission. fd like to ask the Minister if he can account for the long two-year vacancy in that position.

Why is it that the government could not find a suitable person to serve in that capacity? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. MERCI ER: Mr. Cha irman, I had explained on a number of oc casions prior to the appoi ntment of Dean Edwards, which actually took place in about January. The appointment - 665 -

Tuesday, 11 March 198 0 took place in January of 19 79 but he wasn't able to take over as full-time Chairman until July 1, 19 79 , when he completed his duties at the Uni versity of Manitoba Law School. But we had had some difficulty in attracting a person to that positio n. It's a unique position in that not very many lawyers are attracted to it because it's a term appointment and it takes someone right out of the practice of law.

At the same time, you want, in that position, a well qualified person because, in my view, the Manitoba Law Reform Commission performs a very useful and important role in reviewing our existing laws and making recommendations for ch anges in the law. I think the wait was well worthwhile in the appoint ment of Dean Edwards' positio n. He is very much respected in the legal profession and in the community. He is a diligent worker and l think has done an outstanding job since he's been appointed to this position and will continue to do so in the future. MR. WALDING: Mr.

Chairman, I don't know the individual; I can make no comment on his suitability or any thing else. The question that I had asked the Minister was to why there had been that delay. It may not be two months; it might be two years; it might be only 20, or 19 months or something like that. Is it a matter that a person considering the position wouldn't want to do it on a ti me basis? Is it that they would not like to wo rk in this parti cular level of wo rk, or could it be that the government was not offering sufficient money?

And, perhaps in that regard, the Attorney-General could tell us what salary range was being offered when the government first began to look for a replacement for Mr. Muldoon and what the salary range was that was settled for. MR. MERCIER: As I recollect, Mr. Chairman - I could be subject to some correction - Mr. Muldoon was earning approxi mately $32 ,000 when he was Cha irman, and I think the province was fortunate in obtaining his services for that salary. As members will be aware, he subsequently went to become vice-chairman and is now chairman of the federal Law Reform Commission of Canada.

That salary was a factor, I think, in obtaining a suitable person for the position. MR. WALDING: The second part of my question, Mr. Chairman, was, can the Minister indicate the salary range that the present incumbent started at? MR. MERCIER: As I recollect, when he started he was - the present incumba nt being Edwards that you refer to? - was earning approximately $43,000.00. MR. WALDING: So it would appear, Mr. Chairman, from those figures that the matter of the salary to be paid was a very important criteria in finding someone suitable.

I would like to ask the Minister whether the amount that we approved last year of $64. 8 thousand for sal aries included an estimated amount for the as then unselected chairman of the commission? MR. MERCIER: The answer is yes. MR. WALDING: I would like to ask the Minister in that case why there is an increase in that amount of something like $20,000 for this year? MR. MERCIER: Because, Mr. Chairman, during the course of the current fiscal year 1979 -80, two research positions have been filled and they were filled part way through the year and I think that accounts for part of the increase.

In addition, the chairman will be on staff for the full year. MR. WALDING: I would like to explore with the Minister these two extra positions that the Minister mentions since they were presu mably not included in the amount that the committee authorized last year. Can the Minister explain where the money came from to pay for these posi tions ? Was it a matter of special warrants issued during the year? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, they were included and had been included, I understand, for some time but they'd never been filled , particularly the second position had never been filled.

These are research assistant positions. - 666 -

Tuesday , 11 March 19 80 MR . WALDING: I'm still not clear about the answer that rm getting from the Minister. If these were posit ions that dated back several years or for some time, I believe the Minister said, even though one of th em was vacant, were not those positions cov ered by the appropriation that we approved last year? MR . MER CIER: Pardon me, Mr. Chairman, would the member be kind enough to repeat that? MR. WALDING: Mr.

Chair man, the Minister had told the committee just now that there were two positio ns that date back for some time but one of them was vacant, and he was referring to research positions. If that was the case, did not the appropriation that the committee approved last year include those two positions? MR. MER CIER: Mr. Chairman, the staff of the commission is composed of two full-time research officers, .26 part-time research officer, one administrative officer, one administrative officer, and .13 part-ti me clerical ass istants to assist in the production of reports.

The level that was provided for last year was 3. 26 staff man years. The only increase requested is the .1 3 part-time clerical assistants. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, the Minister still hasn't answered my question. I asked him why there was an increase this year of almost $20,000 in salaries and he answered me that there was an additi onal two research people that had been taken on staff and that is why there is an increase. I then asked him why didn't the $64,0 00 last year include the provision for those posit ions and he hasn't given me an answer yet. MR . MER CIER: Mr.

Chairman, the information I have is that the increase this year is comprised of $1 3,000 for a research assistant on a part-time basis and the temporary clerical assistants at $3,5 00 , for a total of $1 8,500, and that amount was not included in last year's Estimates. MR. WALDING: I haven't finished yet, Mr. Chairman. So the Minister is now telling us that the $13, 000 and the $3,500 was not in the amount approved by the committee last year. Would that be true? MR. MERCIER: That's correct. MR. WALDING: So the statement made by the Mini ster earlier that this .•• MR.

MERCIER: I was referring back apparently to the year before last. MR . WALDING: Mr. Chair man, my reference is to the amount that this committee approved last year and the indicati on that there is only .13 of a staff man year increased this year. Now the Minister is telling us, firstly, that that increase of $1 8,000 is because of two research assistants and then he said, well, it was in last year's or that it goes back for quite a while. Now he is telling us that there is an increase of much more than .13 , and rm frankly confused, Mr. Cha irman, and I suspect the Minister is too. MR. MER CIER: Mr.

Chair man, I hope this will finalize it. During the course of fiscal year 19 79-80, half a staff man year was approved for the purpose of a research assistant which was not provided for in the Estimates for 1979 -80, that is the $1 3,0 00. 00 . In addition th ere is the thirteen weeks part-ti me clerical ass istant , whi ch is another additi on that was not provided for last year. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chair man, when the Minister said that half a research person was approved last year, by whom was it approved? MR. MER CIER: It was approved through Treasury Board, Mr.

Chairman, su bsequent to the Estimates being approved. MR. WALDING: Was the half a position actually filled and paid for last year or this a position approved last year that is to be filled in the coming year? - 667 -

Tuesday , 11 March 19 80 MR. MER CIER: No, it was approved and filled during the 1979 -80 fiscal year. MR. WALDING: Will the Minister then inform the committee wh ere the funds came from to pay this person who filled the position? MR. MER CIER: Suppl ementary Supply; it was paid for th rough Supple mentary Supply. MR . CHAIRMAN: The time being 5:30, I am now leaving the Chair and will return at 8:00 p.m. SU PP LY - LABOUR AND MANPOWE R MR . CHAIRMAN, Mr. Abe Kovnats: Co mmit tee will come to order. I would direct the honourable members to Page 68 of the Main Esti mates, Department of Labour and Manpower. The item under discussion is Resolution No. 90, 2. Labour Division, Item (

d) Employment Standards

(1) Salaries--pass - the Honourable Minister. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, the Employ ment Standards Branch is responsible for the administration and enforcement of legislation concerning minimum standards in matters such as hours of work, vacations, general holidays, wages and their payment, maternity leave, termination of employment, and equal pay. A prime function of the branch is collecting wages found owing to employees, either through the findings of branch officers or by orders of the Manitoba Labour Board, su bsequent to an adjudication hearing.

Functionally, the Employ ment Standards Branch administers and en forces the provisi ons of The Employment Standards Act, The Vacations Wit h Pay Act, The Construction Industry Wages Act, and The Payment of Wages Act. In administrating these Acts, off icers of the branch conduct inspections of workplaces and payrolls to ensure co mpliance with the legislation, investigate complaints of suspe cted violation, and take whatever action is necessary to effect compliance with the requirements of legislation it administers.

In addition, the branch provides an informational service relating to enquiries respecting The Remembrance Day Act and The Retail Businesses Ho liday Closing Act. Plans are now under way to increase the educational component in the branch to complement the enforcement

section in order to install a greater public awareness of Labour standards and the service provided to uphold these standards. This includes a planned speak ing program for Winnipeg Junior High and High Schools, or other interested groups - and we have embarked on that particular program already , Mr. Chai rman. Last year, there were 29.36 SM Ys. During the course of the year we've added one to the City of Brandon, and this year we're adding one more, which will be a clerk-typist for the main office here in Winnipeg. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Me mber for St. Johns. MR.

CHERN IACK : I just have one item I'd li ke to ask the Minister. I hope he will recall this, because a long time ago, I have a clipping from May 8th, 19 79 - What is that, 10 months ago? - where it was indicated that the Manitoba Medical Associati on arrived at a decision that it would recommend to doctors not to issue medical certificates to workers who are absent from their jobs for less than five days.

I'm wondering if the Minister is familiar with that and whether he or his department have dealt with that as a problem that would affect - and that's the whole purpose of it - affect the rights of certain employees to obtain payment for sick benefit for a period of less than five days. MR. MacMASTER: I think, Mr. Chairman, I recollect the article, too. I don't recall whether, in fact, it was put in practice in Manitoba or whether it wa s a recommendation from - I forget what the member said - from the executive director, or the president , or the association to its members.

I have to plead ignorance; I don't know whether that was ever followed up on by that associati on wi th its doctors or not. I don't know if that's in practice today, and the department has not investigated it or looked into it in any way that I know of. MR . CHERN IACK: Well, Mr. Chairman, just to clarify to the Minister, it's the Manitoba Medical Association' s decision to recommend that this be done. It is a matter for - 668 -

Tuesday , 11 March 19 80 MR. MER CIER: No, it was approved and filled during the 1979 -80 fiscal year. MR. WALDING: Will the Minister then inform the committee wh ere the funds came from to pay this person who filled the position? MR. MER CIER: Suppl ementary Supply; it was paid for th rough Supple mentary Supply. MR . CHAIRMAN: The time being 5:30, I am now leaving the Chair and will return at 8:00 p.m. SU PP LY - LABOUR AND MANPOWE R MR . CHAIRMAN, Mr. Abe Kovnats: Co mmit tee will come to order. I would direct the honourable members to Page 68 of the Main Esti mates, Department of Labour and Manpower. The item under discussion is Resolution No. 90, 2. Labour Division, Item (

d) Employment Standards

(1) Salaries--pass - the Honourable Minister. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, the Employ ment Standards Branch is responsible for the administration and enforcement of legislation concerning minimum standards in matters such as hours of work, vacations, general holidays, wages and their payment, maternity leave, termination of employment, and equal pay. A prime function of the branch is collecting wages found owing to employees, either through the findings of branch officers or by orders of the Manitoba Labour Board, su bsequent to an adjudication hearing.

Functionally, the Employ ment Standards Branch administers and en forces the provisi ons of The Employment Standards Act, The Vacations Wit h Pay Act, The Construction Industry Wages Act, and The Payment of Wages Act. In administrating these Acts, off icers of the branch conduct inspections of workplaces and payrolls to ensure co mpliance with the legislation, investigate complaints of suspe cted violation, and take whatever action is necessary to effect compliance with the requirements of legislation it administers.

In addition, the branch provides an informational service relating to enquiries respecting The Remembrance Day Act and The Retail Businesses Ho liday Closing Act. Plans are now under way to increase the educational component in the branch to complement the enforcement

section in order to install a greater public awareness of Labour standards and the service provided to uphold these standards. This includes a planned speak ing program for Winnipeg Junior High and High Schools, or other interested groups - and we have embarked on that particular program already , Mr. Chai rman. Last year, there were 29.36 SM Ys. During the course of the year we've added one to the City of Brandon, and this year we're adding one more, which will be a clerk-typist for the main office here in Winnipeg. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Me mber for St. Johns. MR.

CHERN IACK : I just have one item I'd li ke to ask the Minister. I hope he will recall this, because a long time ago, I have a clipping from May 8th, 19 79 - What is that, 10 months ago? - where it was indicated that the Manitoba Medical Associati on arrived at a decision that it would recommend to doctors not to issue medical certificates to workers who are absent from their jobs for less than five days.

I'm wondering if the Minister is familiar with that and whether he or his department have dealt with that as a problem that would affect - and that's the whole purpose of it - affect the rights of certain employees to obtain payment for sick benefit for a period of less than five days. MR. MacMASTER: I think, Mr. Chairman, I recollect the article, too. I don't recall whether, in fact, it was put in practice in Manitoba or whether it wa s a recommendation from - I forget what the member said - from the executive director, or the president , or the association to its members.

I have to plead ignorance; I don't know whether that was ever followed up on by that associati on wi th its doctors or not. I don't know if that's in practice today, and the department has not investigated it or looked into it in any way that I know of. MR . CHERN IACK: Well, Mr. Chairman, just to clarify to the Minister, it's the Manitoba Medical Association' s decision to recommend that this be done. It is a matter for - 668 -

Tuesday , 11 March 19 80 the Labour Department. The Minister is not familiar with whether or not they proceeded, nor am I. I would ask him then - and I'm willing to send him this clipping if he likes - I would ask him to ensur e, if he agrees with me that this may be a serious problem for employees, to ensure that the practice is not being carried on in any general way. That is if he agrees with me. If he doesn't agree with me, rd like him to say so, so we'd get some clarification on his approach or his policy. MR . MacMASTER: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I don't know if, in fact, the policy has been carried out and, if it has or hasn't , my staff tell me we have received not one reference, complaint, comment or phone call relating to the possibility of that having taken place. I don't know where we're going wit h this conversation but if, in fact, it took place, there has not been one communication with our department in any way, shape or form, and if it hasn't , then I guess there has not been a problem. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Chairman, I just draw the Minister's attention that it was something he himself noted that long ago, so that it did come to his attention. He says that and if he's looking for an inquiry, he just received one this afternoon. And I don't want to make any issue of this. I just think it is a matter for the Em ploym ent Standards people to be aware of.

Too often, employees are not aware of their rights; too often, they don't assert them, and I think it is a matter for the Department of Labour to, when it's so mething like this is drawn to its attention, to ensure that it makes the proper inquiries to determine whether or not people are adversely affected. That's all I'm suggesting, no more than that. MR.

MacMASTER: Just following along the line of what the member has said about making people aware, we're ... at least I'm certainly very pleased with the new direction that the department is taking in not only making the adult part of our population aware, but I think the Member for St. Johns would certainly agree that our efforts going into the schools and trying to educate our young people as they come into the workplace is something that's long overdue, so that they know their rights and also they know their obligations.

But they know basically some of the laws that apply so when they step out of hig h schools if, in fact, they go directly to employment, that they have an understanding of the basic rights and privileges that they will be working under when they get out in the workplace in Manitoba. So I concur that the education end is certainly important and I'll check into the MMA's position and what they've done about it since then. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Chair man, I do want to take the opportunity to express interest in the program that was referred by the Minister of Labour regarding instruction and advice given to pupils in the schools .

I must say that I do not have confidence in the Department of Education, whose Minister is present in the Chamber now, to carry forward progressive programs, in the light of i ts own record in regard to the material which had been developed and sponsored by the credit union movement, in regard to other progressive educational tools that have been in the school syste m and which have, to my mind, been suppressed by the Department of Education, which I believe has a reactionary attitude.

So I'm hoping that the Minister of Labour, who see ms proud of a program that he thinks is being carried on in the school, monitors the Department of Education to ensure that the Minister of Education and the people who work with him are not actually boycotting or frustrating the efforts of a progressive department, such as the Minister of Labour describes his work to be in this regard. MR. CHAIRMAN: (1 )-pass. The Honourable Me mber for Kildonan. MR. FOX: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, in view of the continual and increasing rise in the cost of living, can the Minister indicate whether he has given any further thought to the increase in the minimum wage and giving sufficient lead time to industry to adjust to it, and also whether he has considered applying a formula that would be tied in with the rising cost of li ving, so that possibly he wouldn't have to be announcing these things after the fact?

Also, I should like to say, in view of the fact that there was almost a three year hiatus between announcement of wage increases for the minimum wage, does he not believe that it is ti me that a realistic look was taken at this particular area, so that the people trying to earn a li ving at this particular level would not continually be under dur ess and forcing them to go on welfare because they can't afford to live at that low level? - 669 -

Tuesday , 11 March 1980 MR. MacMASTER: I appreciate the concern expressed by the Member for Kildonan. I can only say to him that we're still the third highest in our country , with two provinces that are in fact substantially ahead, Quebec and Saskatchewan. And the rest of the provinces are 10 , most of them 15 cents, some of the m 20 and 25 cents behind us.

I haven't given any further thought to the formula though I must explain that by saying that it is never complet ely out of a person's mind when a particular proposal has been presented and sometimes withdrawn and put back in such a wide variety of numbers of ways. I had thought later on in this year that I would certainly sit down with the Minimum Wage Board and and have discussions with th em.

Once again, though I have said in the past that the efforts of that body may be admirable but there is no history of any political party of any st ripe ever really adh ering to the recommendations, but I still am prepared later on this year to sit down with th em and have a discuss ion on the minimum wage situation. MR. FOX: Just to follow up, Mr. Chairman, probably the figures that the Minister uses in respect to minimum wage that we are the third hig hest may not be t rue anymore. I believe there have been some increases in a number of other areas.

But the fact remains that Winnipeg, which has more than half the population of Manitoba, has had the highest cost of living across the nation, and so therefore, we should have the highest and not the third highest minimum wage if we're going to use that as a criterion . Again, I say, we also have to recall that it was almost three years without an increase that took place, and that put all of those people, even though there was a ten cent increase for the first six months and again a ten cent increase in January, all of those people are still very very far behind in trying to maintain their li velihood.

I would really urge the Minister to have another hard look at this. MR. CHAIRMAN: (1 )-pass. The Honourable Me mber for Lac du Bonnet. MR. SAMUEL USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman, I had not intended to ent er into the debate but the answer that the Minister gave just a moment ago with respect as to why the minimum wage has not been alt ered or increased in recent times, does bother me. The Minister alluded to the fact that Manitoba is of course in the area of third place compared to the other provinces with respect to the level of minimum wages. And it oc curred to me that that really is not the relevant yardstick, Mr .

Chairman, because we have seen a number of reports over the years show ing Winnipeg as being one of the high cost areas as far as li ving costs go because of climatic conditions, energy costs, which we consume in greater proportion annually per family, per household, than for example, people do in the labour areas of Ontario. There are transportation costs that are greater for western Canadians than they are for central Canadians, and so on.

And so the Minister is attempting to suggest that there is so me credibility to the idea that being in third place here still leaves us plenty of roo m, that in fact he is trying to leave the impression that we are somewhat more generous than we might want to be or should be perhaps, wi th respect to legislation on wages in this province.

I would like to suggest to the Minister that we have nothing to be proud of wit h respect to the wage scale, at the bottom end of the scale that is, and that is the minimum wage group, given the f act that we have had such astronomical increases in the cost of goods and services, al most on a monthly basis during the course of the last twelve months, Mr . Chai rman. As a matter of fact , had the Minister been on his toes, he should have been increasing those wages every few months just to keep up with it. Just to stand still, Mr.

Chairman, he would have had to make increases over the last twelve months at least three or four times. And so we are somewhat bewildered here as to why the government takes the attitude that it does not have a very important role to play with respect to what is expected to be the minimum standard of living for Manitobans who, for whatever reason, happen to be employed in industries which do not pay more than what the legislation requires them to pay. I think th at's not good enough, Mr. Chair man.

I think the government has a role to respond to changing needs, based on the changes that are taking place in the economy. And I am su re that if one took a good look at economic conditions in 1977 and again now in 198 0, that one would qui ckly conclude that the minimum wage adjust ments fell far behind the adjustments, upward adjustments, in the costs of goods and services that Manitobans must finance in the course of their daily needs, in the course of their shelter payments, in the course of their food requirements, and so on. - 670 -

Tuesday , 11 March 1980 So it's just not good enough, Mr. Chairman. I don't believe that we should be satisfied with a statement that because we're in third place that it seems to be reasonable that that's the place we should be in terms of wage scale compared to the rest of Canada. It seems to me that we should be moving towards an era where we really don't have such a thing as a minimum wage.

Perhaps we should have something that almost - well, perhaps I'm suggesting something too futuristic - that would require that people be either organized to bargain for themselves, so that Ministerial discre tion would not be a factor in wages in this province. But until that happens, Mr.

Chairman, and I'm talking about society where 95 percent or 10 0 percent of the people are organized to bargain for the mselves, but since we're not going to be there tomorrow nor the day after and perhaps not in the next decade, I think the Minister has a responsibility to assure that people have relatively fair standards of living, regardless of the wage scale. Now, Mr. Chair man, if one wants to be very cautious and conservative about that, there's an argument to be made.

Because to the extent that people can't make ends meet on minimum wage salaries, we find that there is a real incentive for those people to drop out of the work force and become dependents on society. And you end up in the so-ca lled wel fare synd rome where people of ability are forced, because of the wage scales, into the welfare syste m. And ultimately we end up with a situation where we breed welfare, Mr. Chairman, and that's a disaster. We are destroying hu man beings, th at's what we are doing, and we are charging the costs of their destruction - we're not doing it on the cheap, Mr.

Chairman, it costs money to destroy people - we are destroying them through the we lfare syste m, we're destroying them be cause they don't have jobs that pay reasonable wages, and we create a liability on the rest of the taxpayers, who are basically the middle income tax-paying group who have to shelter more and more people to the extent that they are unable to find their way in the economic sy ste m that we have.

And I believe it's the government's responsib ility to ass ure that that particular group shrinks year after year, rather than becomes a larger ghetto of half- employed or not employed employable people. MR. MacMASTER: Well, I notice that the Member for Lac du Bonnet is suggesting that possibl y the government should consider some type of forced unionis m on all Manitonans. That's really what the words were and I'm sure a lot of Manitobans will be quite interested in hearing that philosophy.

I can agree in part what he's saying that there are problems with those that are on the minimum wage but the reverse, of course, of that argument is always presented and I think it has some validity; and I say some, because when you're talking about this particular subject, th ere are pros and cons on both sides, but there are a large number of people that get started, as a matter of fact, into the work force because the minimum wage is what it is.

If it was $4.50 or $5.00 they might not get started and a lot of them get started at that particular wage and they get themselves trained and they move up the ladder, in a lot of cases rather rapidly. But it's an entry rate. We've had this debate last session for I don't know how long, and I don't know who really wins the debate on it, but in a large number of cases that minimum wage is in fact a starting rate to get in, get started and get yourself familiar with what you're doing and move up the ladder. And that's the case in a lot of instances. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I would like to ask the Ministe r whether or not he feels comfortable with the idea that we've now had a period of time where certain sectors are no longer covered by The Minimum Wage Act and whether he is satisfied with the disposition of that group of people and their salaries, as they have been able to determine for themselves in the bargaining process as between thems elves and their employers, given the fact that they do not have coll ective bargaining facilities, by and large, in that particular part of our economy.

I would like to know whether the Minister has statistical evidence to show that that group that he deleted from the minimum wage regulations in this province is doing as well or better than they had been doing before they were deleted fro m this particular category, Mr. Cha irman. Perhaps the Minist er may have some information for the House. MR . MacMASTER: I think the record should be clear to the Member for Lac du Bonnet that this government did not delete groups and I think we should repeat that. We did not delete groups.

There has been a deletion of certain groups within society in Manitoba for a good number of years. This government, I repeat, did not delete any particular groups. - 671 -

Tuesday , 11 March 198 0 MR. USKIW: Well , Mr. Chairman, perhaps the Minister may correct me, but my impression is that in so me areas of the service industry , the hotel industry , the restaurant industry, that those groups are no longer covered by The Minimum Wage Act. If I am wrong, I would be pleased to be corrected, Mr. Chairman. MR . MacMASTER: They are covered by The Minimum Wage Act. There was no deletions. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, can the Minister indicate to the House whether or not the minimum wage increases that take place from ti me to ti me and the most recent increase, whether that applied to all Manitobans in the work force, if they were working outside of a collective bargaining agreement? MR . MacMASTER: No, it didn't, Mr. Chair man. There are a good number of exclus ions that have been in place for a good number of years. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, perhaps the Minister would facilitate the debate if he would then enumerate the most recent exclusions to which I am referring, because there were a number of exclusions announced only a year ago or perhaps a little more than a year ago.

And it seems to me that it's incumbent on the part of the Minister and the government that when they exclude a group from those provisions from that kind of shelter in wage law, that they ought to monitor what takes place with that group to determine whether or not that group's position has been enhanced economically or whether it has been retarded, and certainly I would expect that this Ministe r would want to satisfy himse lf that that was a positive step, not a negative one. MR.

MacMASTER: If he's talking about the people that were associated with liquor dispension - and I don't know if that is what he's talking about - if he's talking about exclusions, well, I think the Member for Lac du Bonnet is quite capable of answering hi mself. That particular group still has the possibilitie s and certainly more than poss ibilities, they certainly are in the tip receiving area and that's part of the reason that they were not permitted the increase that we gave to the others that are working outside that industry.

But the exclusions that have been in place for a good number of years are still there. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, is the Minister trying to imply to this Assembly that those peopl e who were covered by minimum wage law up until most recently when the changes were made, that they were not receiving tips up until that point in time? Is that what he is trying to make this House belive? Well, Mr. Chairman, the Minister is using as an excuse that there is a group in our society who receive tips in the course of the carrying out of their duties and the responsibilities on their job. They were always in that position, Mr.

Chair man. So when that group was deleted from the applicat ion of minimum wage law, in effect this Minister caused them to suffer a reduction in their pay. That's what took place, Mr. Chair man, because the people that pass out the tips aren't concerned or cognizant of the fact that there has been a reduction in wages to that particular group of people and, therefore, it has to be offset in some way by a more generous tipping allowance on the part of the patrons of those establish ments.

Now certainly the Minister cannot convince me, and I am sure he can't convince anyone, that he did not create a reduction in take home pay for a good portion, a good sector of our economy, with that one stroke of a pen, Mr. Chair man, and he will be the only Minister that I know of, in terms of the last two or three decades that I can recall, who has, in effect , in an inflationary period of ti me has caused a group, through his actions, to suffer a reduction in wages. MR . MacMASTER: They didn't get the increase that the others, parti cularly got, Mr. Chairman; that we agree with. MR. USKIW: Well , Mr.

Chairman, I now ask the Minister if he would inform the House why they are not entitled to maintain a standard of li ving somewhat comparable to what other people in the same kinds of industry are receiving, albeit not adequate, but why is that one group not entitled to receive protection under minimum wage laws just because they happen to be employed in a certain area? - 672 -

Tuesday, 11 March 198 0 MR. MacMASTER: It was felt that a gap could be established and would be good for the industry and in any future increases that gap may not be extended, Mr. Chairman. · MR. USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman, we now have arrived at the point where the Mini ster agrees there is now a gap between different groups covered by minimum wage laws in Manitoba. He is now suggesting that there is discri mination between groups. I would like him to justify in this House why there ought to be any kind of discrim ination. We now know there is a discrim ination between groups in the area of the service industry .

But, Mr. Chairman, there are others, Mr. Chairman, who receive tips, gratuities, of all sorts, that have collect ive agreements. That doesn't seem to enter into the debate. People that earn $20,000 a year may have tips or whatever from their customers. That's an every day occurrence in our society. So I don't know how the Minister can justify the fact that because one particular group, the people that serve beverages, because they receive tips that they are not entitled to the protection of the state with respect to wage laws. MR. MacMASTER: They are protected at a different rate, Mr. Chair man. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Logan. MR. WILLIAM JENKI NS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is a topic that is one that I have raised in this House on a few occasions. and what the Minister has now is ... bad enough that before we had two classifications; we had for those who were under the age of eighteen a wage differential but now the Minister has created three wage differentials.

We have those that are now, as of January ls t, receiving $3.15 an hour; we have those that work within the service industries who are receiving $2 .95 an hour; we have those that are under the age of eighteen receiving $2. 70 an hour.

What I just can't seem to fathom, and I guess the people out there can't fathom it either, is that the Minister saw fit to order an increase as of January lst of a further ten cents an hour for those who are already receiving the maximum under the minimum wage, but for thos e who were under the age of eighteen, for those who worked in service industries where liquor was served, they have now fallen another further ten cents an hour behind what the wage differential was before. --{Interjection)-- Well, it 's twenty cents, but I mean the recent increase has put them a further ten cents an hour back of where they were as of the ls t of July.

I believe that was the lst of July when the . . . Yes, effect ive the lst of July the minimum wage in Manitoba was, for employees under the age of eighteen and over, was increased from $2.95 an hour to $3.0 5 an hour. And as of January ls t, the minimum wage was increased further to $3 .1 5 an hour for employees eighteen years of age and over, provided they didn't work in service industries. So now we have the Min ister establishing three categories.

I can assure the Minister that I never agreed wit h the two categories in the first place, because I think that that person, even if he's under age eighteen, goes into an organized plant, he doesn't start at a learner's wage unless he's serving an apprenticeship and then he has a definite wage scale increase which is set out in his indenture papers. But we don't have an indenture sy ste m within the minimum wage.

There is no thing wi thin the system that says that the person, except when he reaches the age of eighteen, he will automatically jump from $2.70 an hour to $3.1 5, provided he or she doesn't work wi thin a service industry where liquor is served. And I think that the Member for Lac du Bonnet has pointed out quite adequately to the Minist er that these people received those tips before. There are other people who might work in restaurants where there may be no liquor served who are receiving tips, and perhaps I shouldn' t talk about it bec ause the Minister may take it into his head to exclude these people also.

There are people that are working in various industries that can receive tips and I think that the Minister wants to take a real good hard look at this thing. You've had twenty-seven months in office to do something. And I know the Minister hasn't been in the office of the Minister of Labour for twenty-seven months but he's been there for the biggest part of the twenty-seven months. We've had resolutions before this House. The Minister and the government saw fit not to adopt them but in the meantime they have come up with no other solutions.

Perhaps the minimum wage should be tied to the cost of living increases, at least in the fact that the cost of li ving is increasing all the time for these people. They are falling further and further and further behind. Wage increases go up, prices go up, the cost of even travelling to and from work is going up, because of the cutbacks of the government to the municipal authorities. - 6 73 -

Tuesday , 11 March 1980 The cost of their fare increases; just to go to work, has cost them more. But in the meantime, if they work in these two categories, they are there, and the only way they can come out of it is they either leave the service industry where they have been receiving tips and go into another industry that pays the minimum wage, then they can have a 20 -<lent hour increase. And for those who are under the age of eighteen, the only salvation for th em is to hope that they reach the age of eighteen in a hurry. But to say that the Minister is studying this, well, good godfather, Mr.

Chai rman, they've had twenty-s even months to study this. And I think it was only the fact that we, on this side of the House, poked and prodded, cajoled, that we even got the mini mal increases that were put in. I think they were sha med into it , but evidently we didn't do our job well enough because we weren't able to shame them into something better than what they came up with. It was an absolute insult to the people who are working on the minimum wage.

And I agree with the Me mber for Lac du Bonnet, if we were 95 percent organized, we wouldn't need a minimum wage because the other 5 percent wouldn't go and work for that kind of a wage. But, unfortunately, we don't have 95 or 90 percent of our wage earners here in Manitoba, or even in this coun try , organized. But I think that there is a formula; if you don't like that formula, get the Minimum Wage Board together or devise your own formula. There are many methods by whi ch you can tie this in. Get it off your back, get this monkey off your back that is there.

It's going to be there progressively and it's going to stay there for all Minist ers of Labour until you co me up with something that will bring the increases. But, godfathers, we did the same thing here in this Chamber. That is how the members stipend that they receive for attending this Legislature has been geared to cost of living and industrial wage complex; I just forget the formula. If we can see fit to give that so rt of a formula to ourselves, surely we have many people out there who deserve at least something simi lar, espe cially those people who have no organization, no one to speak on their behalf.

If they try to organize, in many cases, regardless of all the changes that are made in Labour legislation, the y get fired. It still happens, the Minister knows that, I know that, the people of Manitoba know that. When an organization drive is taking place, there are still people who are losing their jobs because of the organizational activities. There are many methods by whi ch the employer may reinstate them after the Labour Board makes a decision. But then they say to the person, he's not doing his job properly and whatnot.

There's all kinds of method by which they can get rid of people that might be a pain in the neck to the employers. I'm sure that the Minister of Labour has had that experience in his experience as a trade unionist and as an organizer.

There are methods by which an employer can get rid of you, and for these people, even if they were organized, I can tell you that the first agreement that they would have, they would be bargaining from either $3 .1 5 an hour; if they were in the service industries serving liquor, they would be bargaining from $2.95 an hour and if they got a 20 percent increase, you know what 20 percent of nothing is still practically nothing. And to say that we are the third highest in Canada. I don't care what they do in Saskatchewan, Alberta, British Columbia, and Quebec.

We're not elected as representatives to represent the country as a whole; we're elected as representatives for here for the province of Manitoba. And I think that the people here in Manitoba, the people who, unfortunately, ha ve to work at the minimum wage, I think it behoves us, as legislators, to make su re that these people are treated fairly, not only by their employers but by society as a whole, because the cost of living has risen so drastically wi thin the past couple of