Manitoba Hansard — 8 March 1962 (Sitting 22, 26th Legislature, 5th Session)

26-5-22

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legis lat iv e � � Assembly Of Ma ni to ba DEBATES an d PROCEED INGS Speaker The Honourable A. W. Harrison Vol. VII No. 22 2:30 p.m. Thursday, March 8, 1962 . 5th Session, 26th Legislature Printed by R. · S. Evans. Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba, Winnipeg

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o' clock, Thursday, March 8, 1962. Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : Presenting Petitions. MR. NELSON SHOEMAKER (Gladstone): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Petition of the Insurance Institute of Winnipeg, Praying for the passing of_An Act to amend

An Act respect ing the Insurance Institute of Winnipeg. MR. SPEAKER: Reading and Receiving Petitions. MB. CLERK: The Petition of Glen Carnegie Bruce and Others , Praying for the Passing of

An Act to incorporate Russell Golf and Country Club. MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees. Notice of Motion. Introduction of Bills. The Honourable the First Minister. HON. DUFF ROBLIN (Premier) (Wolseley) introduced Bill No. 57 ,

An Act to amend The Trustee Act. MR. JAMES COW AN, Q. C. (Win nipeg Centre) introduced Bill No. 59,

An Act to amend The Winnipeg Charter, 1956 , and to validate By-law No. 18589. MR. M. lj:. McKELLAR (Souris-Landsdowne) introduced Bill No. 18,

An Act to amend

An Act to incorporate the Union of Manitoba Municipalities. MR. SPEAKER: Committee of the Whole House . MR. ROB LIN: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seco nded by the Honourable Minister of Education, that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Commit tee of the Whole to consider the follow ing proposed resolution: Resol ved that it is expedient to bring in a measure to amend The Treasury Act by providing, among other matters, for increas ing from $100 ,0 00 to $200 ,0 00 the amount of the accountable advances from the revenue division of the Consolidated Fund that may be outstanding at any one time. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole House with the Honourable Member for St.

Matthews in the Chair. MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, the Administrator of the Province of Manitoba having been informed of the subject matter of the proposed resolution recommends it to the House. Mr. Chairman read the resolution. MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, this amendment suggested in this resolut ion has to do with

Section 44 of The Treasury Act. Under

Section 44 of The Treasury Act advances may be made from time to time out of the Consolidated Fund to provide for exigencies in facilitating the public service, such sums as may be required, but the total of all such advances outstand ing at any one time shall not exceed the sum of $100, 000. 00.

Members will recognize that these advances are part of the regular procedure of financing the operations of government by which sums are extended to departments for departmental working funds, for change funds, for travel advances, to finance seasonal expenditures for unemployment insurance stamps, assize witness fees, the movement of livestock to the Royal Winter Fair, teachers' annual tour of the province, and other examples of which members will be familiar. In 1948 the limit in this par ticular amount was $50 ,0 00 and at that time it was increased by amendment from $50, 000 to $100, 000. 00.

I now have a report from the Comptroller-General who supervises these funds, in fact no accountable advances may be issued without his certificate as to their necessity. He now advises me that the ceiling of $10 0, 000 is too low and that just as we had to reques t an increase in 1948 so we need one today, and he has suggested that we concur that the sum of $200 ,0 00 would be appropriate under the circumstances. I think that gives a fair sketch of the matter. MR. GILDAS MOLGAT (Leader of the Oppos ition) (Ste. Rose): Mr.

Chairman, we would have no objection to this change as recommended by the Comptroller-General. This , I take it, is simply the working capital that is normal in any business. I just wonder if it's a reflection whether my honourable friends have doubled the size of the staff since they're there that they have to double the size of the working capital. March 8th, 1962 Page 501

MR. ROBLIN: Well, I suppose it's just as much a reflection of our hav ing doubled it as our predecessors having doubled it when they doubled the size of the accountable advances. MR. CHAIR1'IAN: Shall the resolution be adopted? MR. D. L. CAMPBELL (Lakeside): Mr. Chairman, I'd just like to ask what are the other matters that are dealt wi th in this bill. MR. ROBLIN: This represents the total of the amendments, Sir, that have to do wi th matters of finance in this bill. Anything that there is in addition to that will appear on second reading. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall the resolution be adopted? Committee rise and report.

Call in the Speaker. MR. W. G. MARTIN (St. Matthews): Mr. Speaker, the Comm ittee of the Whole House has adopted a certain resolution and directed me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for St. Vital, that the report of the committee be received. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. ROBLIN introduced Bill No. 58,

An Act to amend The Treasury Act . . MR. SPEAKE R: Orders of the Day. MR. MORRIS A. GRAY (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, may I respectfully ask the Minister of Education whether his department may expedite the Order for Re turn asked for about eight or nine days ago in connection with the School for the Deaf. HON. STEWART E. McLEAN (Minister of Education) (Dauphin): Yes , Mr. Speaker, we wi ll expedite it as quickly as we can. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. HON. JOHN THOMPSON (Acting Minister of Municipal Affairs) (Virden): Mr.

Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I wo uld like to lay on the table the Annual Report of the Municipal Board for the period ending December 31 , 19 61. MR. SPEAK ER: Orders of the Day. Orders for Return. Adjour ned debate standing in the name of the Honourable Minister of Welfare. MR. ROBLIN: The Minister of Welfare is not here, Mr. Speaker. I presume if anyone else wishes to speak they'd be welcome to do so, otherwise perhaps we should let it stand in his name. MR. SPEAKER: Order stand? Committee of Supply. MR. ROBLIN: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister the Provincial Secretary, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself in to a Co mmittee to cons ider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for St. Mat thews in the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN: Department IV - Provincial Secretary, Resolution No. 19. HON. GURNEY EVANS (Provincial Secretary) (Fort Rouge) : Mr.

Chairman, before proceeding, I would like to make reply to some questions that were asked at our last sitting. The Manitoba regulations are bound yearly for the registration's office for use of the govern ment service . They're not carried in stock by the Queen's Printer because there has never ·been any request for them. I have obtained copies now of the last two yea rs, and if the page will help me, I'd be glad to present these now to the Leader of the Oppos ition and the Leader of the New Democratic Party.

The Leader of the Oppos ition asked me the amount of funds received from the Provincial Treasurer by the Manitoba Development Fund as at March 8, 1962. Loan capital -- that is to say debentures at 5 3 /4%, $2 million; share cap ital, $4 million; total $6 million.

My honourable friend from Gladstone asked for a reconciliation between the amounts of money shown for the Provincial Secretary's Department by the Public Acc ounts and the amounts that have been asked for in estimates, and the following spec ial wa rrants account for the differ ence: spec ial warrant for the Manitoba Gazette, $3 , 300 ; special wa rrant for the Civil Service for salaries, $6 , 300; special warrant for the Civil Service for expenses $8, 000 ; and a special wa rrant for the Civil Service Superannuation Fund, $184, 000. 00. I could offer the following Page 502 March 8th, 1962

(Mr. Evans, cont'd. ) ..... additional explanations as the Manitoba Gazette costs that amount beyond what we had estimated, the estimates for the current year are raised by an amount we think is sufficient to cover the cost. The Civil Service salaries were increased by three personnel to help to conduct a survey of existing positions which had been requested urgently by the Manitoba Government Em ployees' Association and to speed-up that review of each position, to see that each employee was properly classified and doing work appropriate to the salary level they were being paid.

With regard to expenses, it was found necessary for certain categories of professional and higher people to advertise Canada-wide rather than merely in Manitoba, and advertising expenses to secure ap plications .increased by the amount of $8 , 000. 00. The amount for the Civil Service Superannuation Fund was required because during that year it became obligatory for all members of the civil service to join the Superannuation Fund. Prior to that it had been optional.

So this sudden number of people joining the Superannuation Fund called upon the government to make a matching grant and the special warrants of $184, 000 was to provide funds for that purpose. My honourable friend from Gladstone referred to over-the-,counter sales by the Queen's Printer and I should explain that over-the-counter sales include mail order sales, and I presume my honourable friend would agree with that definition; that sales fluctuate greatly, as the figures which I will give at the end of this illustrate , depending upon the demand for statutes, reports, etc.

Sales in an y year involve material printed in previous years. For example, we are still selling Revised Statutes of Manitoba, 1954, at $50. 00 per set. A com plete statute, that is revised in each of the annual statutes of subsequent years is sold at $104; annual statutes which are priced at cost vary from $3 .5 0 in 1954 to $1 0.0 0 in 1956 . In 1960 the report of the Royal Commiss ion on Education at $3 .5 0 per copy was a big seller; approximately 700 copi es at a total of over $2 ,0 00 were sold. All material is priced at the even amount nearest to the cost.

For example, if the printing cost is $1. 55, the item is sold at $1. 50 -- pricing it 5� one way or the other. Sales by the Queen's Printer's office to the general public for the calendar year 1957 - $6 , 15 1. 83 ; for the calendar year 1960 - $13 , 045. 65; for the calendar year 1961 - $8, 771. 03. My honourable friend from St. John's asked concerning the amount of the 6% contribution of the civil service members to the Superannuation Fund which amounts to approximately $1, 280, 000. 00. I think that's the balance of the questions outstanding.

If I have missed any that honourable members are waiting for I'd be glad to hear about it. MR. EDMOND PRE FONTAINE (Carillon): I wonder if the Minister could giv e us a report with respect to this last insurance policy -- it's a new policy. I wonder if many of the members are insured under this group life insurance policy ? MR. EVANS: Does my honourable friend refer to the members of the Legislature? Per haps I have that information. I'm not aware whether I have or not. I'll just look.

I' m not able to tell my honourable friend how many members of the Legislature may be members, but I can give him an account of the operation of the fund for the first year. It did no more than break even. There were some rather substantial, and, of course, these are very sad events, losses. One particular one at the very end of the year when it had appeared that we were operating well in hand that there were perhaps surplus funds. There need be no alarm at this when I tell my honourable friend that we did put a sum here of $2 , 641 as a so-called increase in reserve.

Well, of course, merely the first addition or the first sum placed in a reserve. That would not be re garded as a satisfactory amount to put in on a business so large in one year, but we all recall some large claims -- some of our honourable friends who, one particular who was a Minister on this side of the House and others.

I think we can of course mourn the loss of our colleagues, but we can also somewhat rejoice that these ci vil servants and members of the House and mem bers of the Cabinet who were suddenly called by death, do leave their families in a far better situation than they otherwise would have been. I think it's true to say that only a matter of an hour or two after the fund came into being and became effective, there was a claim.

This was, perhaps, a dramatic evidence of the benefit, where an em ployee's widow is able to be assured that there are some thousand of dollars immedi ately available instead of com ing and pleading a case for some gratuity or gratuitous continuation of a salary for a month or two in order to help them over a tough si tuation. And I feel that we can rejoice that this is in being. March 8th, .1962 Page 503

(Mr. Evans, cont'd. ) .• •.. Now I have some information here concerning the numbers of losses and the departments and the months in which they occurred, but that is all at the moment I have to report. MR . ELMAN GUTTORMSON (St. George): Mr. Chairman, when this plan went into ef fect the members of the Legislature were allowed to go into the plan. It is not correct though that any member who didn't take that opportunity when the plan went into effect, cannot do so now ? Is this correct? MR. EVANS: I don't know. I'll see whether that's covered in the rules. MR. GRAY: Mr.

Chairman, while you're looking for that information, is there an age limit? Either on the members or on the employees ? MR. EVANS: The age limit of 65, which, of course, is the same age limit as the regular employment in the civil service for men. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I guess the answer to the question is that as for those who are in the position of having passed the age limit that they can't get in again anyway. MR . EV ANS: In some cases. I'll be glad to get the information definitely for my honour able friend. I'm sorry I' m not able to provide it now . MR .

GUTTORMSON: .••...... .•.•. taken out of the indemnities ? Is that the procedure? The premiums I mean. MR. EVANS: The indemnity including the expense allowance is the amount considered for the group insurance plan. MR. PRE FONTAINE: The minute that a member ceases to be a member, is he automa tically taken away from the fund for the pension? MR. EVANS: I think he occupies the 'same position as an employee who leaves the service . He has the right within a flxed period to convert that insurance to som e other form of insurance offered by the Company without medical examination. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Resolution 19 - passed. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I have one question. I noticed in the Public Accou nts that the premium, of course, takes the balance of this -- the majority of this appropriation something beyond $45, 000 I think, if I remember it rightly. But there's another item of $300 or $400 of fees. I was wo ndering what are the fees in connection wi th this. I can understand, of course, the premium. MR. EVANS: I have found the information concerning members, that they can joi n the plan at any time -- membership in the Group Insurance Plan is open to members of the Legisla ture at any time.

The total amount that I see in the estimates here is $50, 000; the payment re quired to be made to the Canada Life is $50, 000. 00. I see no separate item for fees. MR. CAMPBELL: It's Public Acco unts I was referring to, Mr. Chairman. I just was checking them over and I notice that the premium is ·$45 , 500-odd I think, but then there was another item of fees that was something in the neighbourhood of 340 or thereabouts. I just wo ndered what the fee was . If my honourable friend hasn't the information now he could just check it at his convenience. MR . EVANS: I'll be glad to provide that information. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Resolution No . 20, Item 7 - Purchasing Bureau. MR. GRAY: Mr. Chairman, may I ask the Minister to bring up-to-date the duties, the responsibilities and powers of the purchasing agent. Particularly I'm interested in the buying of millions of dollars of goods for the province -- many of those like stationery and other things are routine and there's no question about that. But Jn case someone wants to buy a car or a truck or other heavy machinery, does he have to consult anybody or get the approval or get a recom mendation, or is anybody sitting on the larger expenditures ? MR.

EVANS: Is there no further questions, Mr. Chairman? With respect to the large technical equipment, the department requiring it, such as road building machinery or other machinery of that type, must wo rk closely with the purchasing agent to ensure that the bids that are called for do cover a machine that would be satisfactory. But in all cases of large machin ery of that kind bids are called for from at least three firms and the best price is taken. Now there have been from time to time some occas ions when the lowest price is not the best price.

There have been times when engineering advice has indicated that a machine priced at a lower figure might indeed we ar out more quickly.and that one of a slightly higher quality would last Page 504 March 8th, 1962

(Mr. Evans, cont'd. ) ..... longer and cost less in the end. But wi th respect to buying these pieces of technical equipment the purchasing agent does rely on the department and their tech nical staffs there for advice to assist him on what machines do fill the specifications . MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution passed. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, before we pass this item. The various utilities and com miss ions presumably do their buying on their own at this stage. Has the government given any cons ideration to centralizing all the buying for every department and every commission? MR.

EVANS: I would say that we have had a very detailed review and study of this ques tion -- not however with a view to centralizing it. When this res ponsibility came to me I thought I should learn more about the way purchasing is done by larger organizations and I personally visited one or two organizations, including the Canadian National Railways , which have a very comp lete purchasing department, have their own testing laboratories, and other facilities of that kind.

Then a member of my staff has -- not in the purchasing bureau, but borrowing as sistance from the Manitoba Development authority -- we did have reviews made of purchasing practices in one other government and then in some large corporations.

I wo uld have to tell my honourable friend that I haven't found yet any new policy that we should adopt, but I'm trying to keep my mind thoroughly open on it because it is a very large piece of business that we do here -- it's up to about $13 million wo rth of stock, and I feel sure that it will well repay a good deal of careful study and administration and everlastingly the system should be under review. But at the moment I have no indication of a change of policy at all. MR. MOLGAT: Mr.

Chairman, I'm glad to hear that the Minister is studying this be cause this is certainly one place where anyone who has been in business knows that savings can be effected. It's so easy to get involved in different purchasing methods at different levels that this is som ething that could well be cons idered. I hope that this study will continue. I think the City of Winnipeg, for example, has been investigating this themselves and have, in their own structure, made some changes. And I would recomme nd that the government continue this. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 20 - passed.

Resolution 21, Item 8, Workmen's Compen sation Board - passed. MR. MOLGAT: ....... .. ......... a doubling here of the figures. Could the Minister explain? MR. EVANS: ....... based purely on additional costs for people injured in the govern- ment service. I think I mentioned the other day that we do not pay fees in the ordinary way to the Workmen's Compensation Board -- fees that might otherwise be called premiums.

The government's employees are covered in the following way -- that if one is injured the case is reported to the Workmen's Compensation Board; they make their investigations and awards and the government provides the money to pay the awards and also some percentage loading to cover the expenses of overhead and so on in the Workmen's Compensation Board. So the increase in the amount of money required here is indirectly related to injuries sustained by members of the service. MR. PAULLEY: ...•... ... Mr. Chairman, that the government contemplates that the accident ratio will increase for the forthcoming year? MR.

EVANS: No, Mr. Chairman. These are acc idents that have happened in the past. These sums are provided to cover those. Some of them are on continuing payments or pensions or whatever you call them , either to the injured person or, I think I'm right in saying, widows• allowances -- I'm not too familiar wi th the details. But based on the accidents in the past it's anticipated that this will be the requirements including pensions to those who have been injured. MR. PAULLEY: I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if the Minister .... ..... I don't know whether this actually wou ld be his or the Department of Labour.

I think though it's the present Minister. I won der if he could give us the information as to the accident ratio wi th government employees that accounts for this -- whether statistics, or what statistics are kept, as to the nature of the accident within the civil service itself. I think this is an important matter, not only dealing with the particular amount under review at the present time, but I think we should have some information -- or I'd apprec iate it at least, Mr.

Chairman, if we had the information as to the number of accidents wi thin the civil service, the type of accidents which occur and then from that would pursue the question as to the steps taken in order to prevent a recurrence of the ac cidents. March 8th, 1962 Page 505

:MR . M. N. HRYHORCZUK , Q. C. (Ethelbert Plains): Mr. Chairman, before the Honour able Minister answers the question, I would just go a step further than the Honourable Leader of the New Democ ratic Party. This $35, 000 that we had in estimates for the year ending March 31 st, 1962 , must have been over-spent. From what you said a moment ago, some of this ... $.7., 000 is go ing to pay for damages for injuries sust ained before now. Could you indicate just how much it was over-s pent, and the type of injury or any particulars you can give us as to the necess ity for this increase ? MR. J. M.

HAWRYLUK (Burrows): Are all em ployees of the government covered by the same ratio as com pared to other employees in industry as far as the Workmen's Compensation -- the same set-up -- anybody working at Canada Packers and anybody working here are covered by the same rules and regulations ? MR. EVANS: I can answer my honourable friend that the case ls turned over to be handled by the Work men's Com pensation Board just as an ordinary case and they would deal with it in exactly the same way here as they would in a private concern or anyone else who is a regular member of the Work men's Com pensation Board.

I do not have the inform ation about the frequency of accidents , the cause , the nature , or matters of that kind. I'll be glad to provide it for my honourable friend -- I undertake to pro vide it. There is no necess ity of holding the item unless he wishes to. With respect to the over-payment, I don't have that information with me either -- I'll undertake to see if we can provide that information as well. :MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 21 - passed. . ......... , .. to Treasury. MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, we 'll turn to the Departm ent of Indust ry and Commerce. MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if I might ask the Provincial Treasurer when we will be com pleting his estimates. MR. ROBLIN: We 'll do that some time next week , Mr. Chairman. But I think I should tell the honourable members that after Industry and Commerce we expect to have a short inter val, probably to finish up the Treasury Department, then we go to Health and, following Health, Municipal Affairs. MR. CHAIRMAN: Industry and Com merce , Resolution No . 69 -A dmini stration. :MR . EVANS: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if I could suggest a method of procedure which I hope might be found to be agreeable by me mbers of the co mm ittee. I propose to make a st atement on my own salary dealing with matters concerning industry and regional development, including all matters concerning existing industry, new industry, regional development, and the Manitoba Development Authority. These are largely integrated operations and I would like to deal wi th them , if it's agreeable, in one place.

I will not, in view of an im pending debate on the Manitoba Development Fund and the policies upon which it is based -- I will not refer to that and if it's agreeable then we can have a debate on that subject, which I think might be the most convenient thing to do, when I come to that particular item.

Then if this plan meets wi th approval, I would be glad to make a second statem ent subsequently about the tourist business -- while it is certainly industry, and we regard it in the same light -- nevertheless, I think it's a slightly different character and I think it might help us to deal wi th that se parately; and a third and se parate statement on Civil Defence. Now I wonder if that procedure is going to be acceptable to the members of t)le comm ittee.

I would be glad to proceed in that way if the Leader of the Opposi tion and the Leaders of the other parties feel that is a sensible thing to do and it might help the Chairman to know in what way we'r e going to divide our discussions. :MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, as far as I'm concerned I'd be prepared to reserve my com ments on the Manitoba Development Fund until we come to Resolution No. 87 -- that suits me.

Insofar as the other items, I think likely the member of our group who will be speaking on this has general com ments to make at the opening on Minister's salary and he may range over more than just the initial statem ents of the Minister. I trust that would be in order. :MR . EVANS: ........•....

Now it's usual at this point in introducing the estimat es to give a rev iew of the past year's operation and normally this has consisted of a considerable amount of factual material or statistic s, and so this year, and in order to bring the inform ation rather more up-t o-dat e than the Annual Report, I have had prepared a review of the past year's operations , and I'm going to ask the Clerk of the House if he will now distr ibute to members this Page 506 March 8th, 1962

(Mr. Evans, cont•d. ) ..... review of the past year with res pect to the Department of Industry and Commerce, together wi th a pr inted borchure dealing wi th the plans and programs of the Commit tee on the Economi c Future. I shall be dealing a little later on in my remarks with the Comm ittee on Manitoba's Economi\) Futur e, but wi thin this publication -- a review of the De partment -- you will find evidence that 196 1 has been the most productive year of the Depart ment.

I don't think there is much doubt about that fact, and I claim little, if any, credit for that, because I would like to reinforce and emphasize the rem ar.ks that I made at the time we were discuss ing the Civi l Service Comm ission's estim ates , in bearing testimon y to the work of the mem bers of my st aff, which is quite remarkable and stands comp arison wi th any staff in any field of endeavour anywhere that I have seen, public or private -- not only in the amount of work they do and the hours and hours and weekends and weekends of overtime and additional work which they have put into it, which can be accounted for only by devotion to the interests of the people of Manitoba; and I might say that not only is there that quality and quantity of work, but that the senior mem bers of the st aff have led them in a way that can be described only as brilliant.

The review which will be dis tributed in a few mom ents now, reviews only the key events of the year that has passed - - 1961. It reviews subst antial achievements in this province, largely and almost altogether on the part of private enterprise doing the work, taking the risks and putting the effort into it; but it is worth noting that trade, industry and tourism have achieved new levels in the province. Manufacturing in 196 1 reached $765 mi llion, and the tourist business reached a new high of $37 million. In the com ing year we'll continue very largely the same policies that we have been following.

Advertis ing in the indust rial and tourist fields; we will help existi ng industry to expand; and we will do this very largely by relying on research. We wi ll seek new industries, particularly by a method that we have been using and which we regard as the most effective, and that is what I call "face to face" salesmanship. The officials of the department and myself engage in actual negotiations and actual invitation to in dividual firms to come and locate in Manitoba.

We engage in what also might be called "sales manship", if you like, with regard to existing industries for the increase and divers ification of their line of products so that they may do more bus ire ss and provide more jobs wi thin the pro vince. ·T he outline of the accom plishments that this policy have achieved will be found in the review that will be before you, and I will be glad to answer any questions based on that. But I'd like to turn attention now to the future and to discuss some spec ial plans that we have before us in the com ing months .

We propose to give particular attention to assis ting the present industries in the province to expand and give close attention to the question of discover ing new products that can be made and brought into being within the province. Here are some of the ways in which we propose to put this program forward: In the com ing year in co-opera tion with the National Productivity Council and the federal departments of Trade and Commer ce and Labour, we intend to focus attention by every possible means on the questi on of rais ing ef ficiency and lowering cost for industry in Manitoba.

Plans are being made in co-op eration with the Manitoba industr ies to conduct a "materials requirement" survey to identify products now being purchased by Manitobanianufacturers that mi ght be produced by com panies within the province.

In a good many of our manufacturing institutions we find component parts which are being im ported from elsewhere which, in our opinion, could very well be made here, and I'm sure that lt requires only to be called to the attention of our manufacturers that these opportuni ties exist, for them to have the ingenuity and the will to get ahead and make them, and so we will draw these opportunities to their attention by means of what I have called a material require ment survey.

In the com ing year, high priority and increased em phasis is to be placed on im port re placements and manufacturing under license arrangements . We believe that our manufacturers here can flll a gap that exists and will be able to retain at home a good deal of money that is now spent abroad for various items.

In addition to business information and marketing data now prov ided to the Manitoba busi ness firms, the department intends to help the further development of our manufacturing indus tries by providing ass istance, when requested, in the form of divers ification st udies , to help Manitoba manufacturers locate new products , particularly new products of disti nctive style and quality which can comma nd markets not only here but abroad. Another form of assis tance is in March 8th, 1962 Page 507

(Mr. Evans, cont•d. ) ..... helping Manitoba to sell their products in the midwestern United States market. In conjunction wi th the Federal Department of Trade and Commerce, our de partment has already carried out preliminary investigations to determ ine which products could be sold in this market. It's our opinion that there is an important potential for Manitoba manu factured goods in the United States, particularly in the spec ialty and luxury light manufacturing classes .

Our program will be to identify the products which are su itable for marketing in the United States, bring these to the attention of Manitoba firms and provide them with the guidance on the most efficient methods and procedures for distributi ng Manitoba manufactured goods in the United States. I know there are many opportunities for growth and expansion in this export field. We have achieved a quite rem arkable list of products that are now exported from Manitoba. I don't think I need to refer to the st aples -- such things as work clothing and other things wi th which we're familiar.

I need not refer to the agricultural products such as the grains and butter fats and meat products and so forth, but I have here just a partial list selected to show the variety of items that are, in fact, exported from Manitoba to other countries -- not to other parts of Canada, but to other countries -- and I'll read it through now just as a list, to show variety rather than the entire range of these kinds of goods .

Automob ile frost shields and accessories, automobile brakes, rakes, hoses , spades, snow shovels, grain augers, harrow draw bars, hydraulic truck hoists, sw athers, curling sweaters, bulky knit sweaters, woollen blankets, high fashioned ski slacks and coveralls, sportshirts , women's skirts and spor ting clothing, sc intillating phosphors having to do wi th radiation equipment, spec ial technical comp onents used in the United States space program, circuit breakers and electrical switch gear equipment, curling brooms, windows and doors insulation sets, fresh and frozen fish fillets, wild rice , ceramic figures , lamps and wall plaques, lumber and particle board, church vestm ents and supplies, cedar canoes , carburetors and fuel pumps.

I think that covers a very wide spectrum of the kinds of things that are made in this country and are finding export markets abroad. Well, it's true today that we are facing a new set of circumst ances with regard to our ex port bus iness but this need, by no means , be a disc ouraging picture if we act wi th vigor and in telligence. And I won't dwell on this point longer because, as honourable members know, this is set down for debate at another time.

At any rate, we have to take the world as it is and to make the best of it, and I suggest that our manufacturing industries must help to develop growth by venturing abroad and capturing new markets for themselves. This means that if Manitoba industry is to sell at home or abroad it must produce goods that ·people want at a price that they will pay. To achieve this , all groups in the province must work together in making our goods and services compe titive. Busi ness , labour and government are all on the same side of this st ruggle and we must help one another. Business must sell and must sell hard.

They must develop new products and new processes faster than their com petitors - and in every si ngle thing that we sell or atte mpt to sell we have competitors -- and this runs right through the piece and includes the tourist business as well. This means rese arch and development. It means finding new uses for the products that we supply; the creation of new products for the new markets; tapping of the new products for all purposes to which they can be put. And more particularly, it means aggress ive selling and realistic pricing.

It's realized that our manu facturers must export their manufactured goods in the face of very tough com petition from other highly industrialized and industrious nations, but unless our manufacturers continue to make greater efforts to export, they cannot grow. Our home market is just too sma ll. Our future growth depends to a large degree on our success in this field. So in the export field, we are determ ined to leave, so far as our help can run, to leave no stone unturned, either large or small, likely or unlikely, to discoveri ng new markets.

Our first attention will, of course, be to Canada because that's the most readily access ible market, and unless you have a good market at home, you can hardly hope to develop a good export trade. We wi ll turn our attentions to west ern Europe. We will turn our attentio.ns per haps , with renewed hope in these days when we read the news papers about tariff negotiations, to the United -States. Now these are of vital markets for us for wi thout these we cannot hope to grow in the export market or indeed, to continue to sustain the kind of industria l development that we have now.

But these are by no means the only markets to which we should pay attention. I think I should mention that in Latin Ameri ca there are 199 million people -- a very large Page 508 March 8th, 1962

(Mr . Evans , cont'd. ) .... . market indeed. I suspect that not all our business concerns here, either manufacturing or commerc ial , have at their finger tips , all of the information that would be useful by way of trade practice, how are the credit arrangements handled and how is trade carried on, that they should have or would like to have, with respect to entering these other ma rkets. There are language barri ers, there are custom barrie rs, there are all sorts of frozen funds that must be negotiated.

Then one has only to turn one's thoughts to ,Africa, at the moment, to see what an enormously expanding picture there. is there. Here are people by the tens of millions who are px·obably learning to read for the first time, and what effect that will have upon such products as newsprints and other forms of paper and as their standards of li ving increase and grow, what an enormous dema nd will develop on that continent. The same thoughts occur wi th respect to Asi a.

Well, I say that if Germans and British and French and Americans can succeed in these fields , Manitobans can too, because we have the energy, we have the ima gination, we have the initiative, and I suggest that anything that the government can do to help our Manitobans to take up this challenge and to compete, and to compete succes sfully, with these other peoples, is our clear, plain duty, and we are bending in that di rection. I have emphasized that labour and ma nagement are on the same side in this struggle. What we all want is more jobs.

That is the slogan that we have before us in the department - "More jobs. " We want more jobs which pay well. We want more real return; real return in the form of goods and other things that we want to provide for our famili es. In order to do that, I can only summarize what I have just been saying, by mentioning three factors: productivit y, new markets, more investments. And those are the objects of our policy. Well then, so much for existing industry. I would like to turn more particula rly now, to the new indus tries which we may attract to the province.

If anyone is viewing this at all hard headedly, they will have to say this , that new industries will come to our province if it is pro fitable to do so. They will come here if it is more profitable to do so than to go anywhere else, and they will not come here under any other ci rcumst ances. And we must, for all the dream ing that we mi ght do and for all the wishfull thinking that we mi ght do, we must admit to our selves that unless there is money to be made here to attract industr ies, they won't come.

Well in our industria l balance sheet of the province, our balance sheet of advan tages and disa dvan tages we have both assets and li abilities . But after some study on this and after some discus sion with people who know a vast deal more about it than I do, I have come to the firm convic tion, and I think there is some evidence in that review of activities that I'm ri ght, that Manitoba is one of the brightest spots for the development of new industry in Canada today.

It ranks well with any comparable area in the United States and particularly with regard now and for the future, wit h industries larger than we have been accust omed to attracting here in the past. This is a combi nation of a number of factors but I think we can look forward hopefully to ind us tries of increasing si ze, but our program is to dig out specific opportunities for industries to come and establ ish in Manitoba. Ei ther new independent concerns which means putting together the management element and the financ ial element in starting a new concern or branches of existi ng concerns.

We bel ieve that any industrial development in Manitoba is a good thing. We are friendly to outsid ers; we are particularly friendly to Canadians who will c � me here and settle down. We are friendly to Americans who will come here and start industry. We are friendly to the British and Germans and Swiss and Italian and any others who will come to Manitoba and help us to provide jobs for our people. We believe this must be done on what we would ca ll the rifle approach rather than the shotgun approach.

We think we must try to isolate an existing opportunity for someone to corn e in here and do bus iness and make money and then take it to those who mi.ght come and sell it to them in a face-t o-face sales program. This will be based on the keystone of research. Research into new products; research into opportunities for new indust ry. Within this field we're going to give special attention to the united efforts of agriculture and industry because I beli eve very firmly that the next expansion in the food industry in Ca nada will be in Manitoba.

Manitoba can become a great food processing centre in certain particular kinds, I think, of canned and preserved foods; I think a certain specialty kinds of foods, for Canada. We have the land and the location and we-oon- grow.good quality raw materials -- two most es sential factors. This comes at a time when lands available for this purpose in other March 8th, 1962 Page 509

(Mr. Evans, cont•d. ) ..... parts of Canada, notably in Ontario, are actually shrinking by reason of expanded areas required for res idents and areas required for industries down there. And so at a time when Canadian population is growing, when the demand for food is increasing the lands available for producing them in other parts of this country are, in some cases, shrinking. This process has already st arted. We have found com ing to Manitoba a number of famous names and who have set tled here already.

My honourable friends across the way will have had the major res ponsibility for bringing the Cam pbell Soup Com pany here -- a famous name. Catelli is returning; the J. R. Simp lot Com pany; Canadian Canners have been here for some time . These are only the forerunners, I feel, of a very large expansion of industrial enterprise within the province based on a marriage of agriculture and industry. I'm not at liberty to discuss any details, but I will say that there are four large food process ing com panies at the mo ment working with the department with a view to comi ng into Manitoba.

Well agriculture and industry pay attention to each other not only because we can further process the foods and export them , but because the farm continues as the great market. The great single market for the products of our industries in the province, and certain specialized things made for the farm market itself. You need only think of fertilizer, insectic ides, machinery, building materials that are required espec ially for the farm and so forth.

So the department will continue to concentrate a high proportion of its efforts for industrial expansion on food process ing and industries serv ing the needs of agriculture ; we plan to act aggress ively to demons trate Manitoba's su itability for manufacturing these products . I'd like to say a word about the Regional Development program . The program is working and is having an effect on creating jobs within the province. It promotes industrial growth it self.

There is an active program wi thin this Regional Development Department or Regional Development Branch for the actual promotion of industrial development through the Regional Development program , through the commu nity development corporation and matters of that kind.

But it does a thing that has sometimes esc aped attention, and that is, that it prepares the co m munities themselves for industrial development, because we find as a matter of day-to-day ex perience that a larger and larger proportion of industries and com panies who might come to the province are paying attention to and sti pulating that there shall be com munity planning in the towns in which they expect to locate. And honourable me mbers wi ll recognize that we have a deliberate policy of drawing to the attention of im pending industria l developers the advantages of placing their efforts in rural Manitoba.

We do not neglect the City of Winnipeg or Greater Winnipeg, but at the same time we do deliberately call the attention of im pending developers to other areas . We have found that they insist there be a good commu nity development plan; that there shall be an atmosp here there which will attract and hold the kind of personnel that they want to have as em ployees in their plants. They set great store by, for example, the atmos phere of hosp itality that may well exist tl:.3re for the wives and families of people like managers and foremen and others who will move in from the outs ide and settle down.

If there is a well planned com munity which is safe and healthy and hospit able to these families, they will remai n and remain as good contributing me mbers of the com munity and will be happy. And if they re main, that's a far less expensive thing for the com pany than if they were to move out and having to be replaced. At the mome nt the Regional Development branch is advis ing 38 c·om munities on their town planning in comparison wi th 13 of three years ago. One of the main objects of the Regional Development work is to provide a good mix of em ployment in the country areas .

The time is long past when everyone in the rural areas is concerned with farming or wants to be concerned with farming. We want to provide to the ris ing generations a variety of opportunities to work at the kind of work that they like, at which they will be happy and in which they will be able to earn sati sfactory living. In these rural areas we want to see a good mixture of opportunities in agriculture, industry, commerc ial, professional work. One of the great advantages of this is that it will help us to keep at home, in Manitoba, the best assets that we have -- and that is our people.

We have been in the business of export ing people from Manitoba for far too long. The figures that have already been published, and I think I mentioned them in the House last year, indicates that unless some change occurs in job opportunities in Manitoba in the next ten years, we will likely export from the province some thing in the order of 40, 000 people. We are now spending -- my honourable friend the Minister Page 51 0 March 8th, 1962

(Mr. Evans, cont•d. ) .. ..• of Education is spending far more on each child now that comes up through the educational system than previously, and we propose -- the prospect until now has been that we will make these very large expenditures and then give away the products . That seems to us to be a very sad waste.

And so one of the main objects of this regional development program will be, we hope and expect confidently, to im prove the opportunities and the prospect of retaining these young people at home where they can contribute to their province and where they will be able to grow up and have happy and satisfying lives . . In this regional development program I would like to menfion a number of items which consti tute our program for the com ing months. This year the Western Development Region Econom ic.

Survey will be published and advisory ass istance provided to local development agen cies who seek to implement the recomme nded opportunity. Consultative services will be pro vided to commu nity development corporations and agencies in rural Manitoba in the process of their investigations and the promotion of industries, business and tourist projects. It's intended to initiate a public planning education program by means of holding planning workshops in various localities of the province .

Procedures concerning the preparation of town planning schemes and plans of subdivisi on will be si m plified by the introduction of new regulations under The Town Planning Act. Now acting through this whole piece is the Manitoba Development Authority. Honourable members will recall that this is a machinery for co-ordi nating the work of various departments as required particularly in the fields of natural resource development and industrial develop ment throughout the province.

It has its own staff and it has been occup ied -- I was going to say preoccupied -- by a number of pretty important events recently, and I need only recall the Royal Commissi on on Transportation and the effort that was put into that through the Manitoba Development Authority. But for the future its biggest job is to act as the secretariat for the commit tee on Manitoba's economic future. It will provide technical and administrative and ad visory services to the various comm ittees that are operating in that connection. I shall refer to the work of this comm ittee in a few minutes.

The Manitoba Development Authority will con tinue its search for resource based industr ies. It will endeavour to search out groups in two fields -- one is the management field and the other is the financial field -- to come in and de velop the opportunities in this province for developing our natural resources , and more parti cularly wi th regard to forest products . We have given constant attention to this question of securi ng a pulpmill for northern Manitoba and to endeavour to interest groups to com e here.

We have been discuss ing, over the years now, two or three years, with various management groups their future programs and the opportunities that might exist to come in here. Each one of them have their long dist ance future before them; most of them have various opportunities they are considering; some of them even have projects under way. But we will continue to concentrate on the task of finding a management group which will say that it sees the profitable opportunity to come to Manitoba and interest them in undertaking a proper development here in the province.

I think it's true to say that if a qualified management group can be found, that it will not be too difficult a matter to find the funds that would be required to finance the operation. We will continue the battle of the freight rate costs , and this has been a program that the Manitoba Government, for many years, has concentrated on and one in which Manitoba, I think, has achieved a leading position in calling to attention the penalties that are imposed on the long haul .... ...... freight shipper.

The report of the Royal Commi ssi on on Transportation has been subm itted -- the first two volumes have -- there is a third volume to come ; but now the quest ion of what action is to be taken on the basis of the report is before us. This action will be taken, presumably, through the Parliament of Canada and we are prepared to consider what action Manitoba should take -- what representations Manitoba should make -- before the Rail way Co mm ittee will be considering the ques tion of what action should be taken.

The Manitoba Development Authority will co-or dinate programs under the ARDA program which is being developed by the federal authorities. This is an inter-departm ental matter in most cases, as honourable memb ers will remember, and the Development Authority will have its part to play there. The Development Authority will be res ponsible for what we might almost call the "Resources for Today" program . We had the Resources for Tomorr ow conference - and a great and significant conference it was -- in Montreal -- and a very great deal of informa tion was developed, and these papers are available.

But in order to take a Resources for March 8th, 1962 Page 511

(Mr. Evans , cont'd.) ..... Tomorrow conference and turn it into jobs , we'v e got to make it into a Resources for Today program, and we wi ll follow very closely the opportunities for de velo ping our own resources based on the information and the connections that were developed at the time of the conference.

The Development Authority has continued on wi th its program of area development, and I should mention to my honourable friends, the develo pment of southeast Manitoba, and the fact that the factory that was developed at Sprague, making hardboard, was the result of the study that was undertaken in that area, was the advice of consultants, and has resulted in at least one industry down there and other plans which are under way.

The Development Authority has under study other areas, including the Inter-Lake area in Manitoba, and the Birch River area, hoping that by co-ordinating the efforts of the various departments we may be able to bring new economic strength to those areas. The Development Authority has its own industrial engineer ing services wi th one engineer whose contribution to the develo pment of Manitoba has been sig nificant indeed.

These engineering services have been effective tools in our Natural Resources Development program ; they have been at the disposal of the Manitoba Development Fund, to investigate the soundness of the propositions that are brought to the Fund for consideration and in the regional and industrial programs. I'd like to call the honourable memb ers ' attention to the brochure which has been passed out concerning the comm ittee on Manitoba's economic future.

This is a searching scru tiny of the economy of the Province of Manitoba, which we are informed has not been duplicated for com pleteness or practical effect, certainly not in any other part of Canada and, so far as I am aware , not on this continent. This commit tee on the future will combi ne government, labour, management and citizens in general in a series of comm ittees -- I said it will combine, it has combined -- these elem ents in a complete study of the assets that we have, any liabilities that we have and how to turn our liabilities into assets.

Engaged actively in this program now there are 300 individuals now acting on these comm ittees and sub-co mmi ttees, giving freely of their time -- and I pay tribute to those who are not in what you might call the management or the •""::::::�:�; ·..:i«<>il '-'- I pay particular tribute to certain elem ents of labor, certain members of the labor movement, who have, not only given their time, but who, through t,heir IJ.nions, have made it poss ible for their me mbers to take

part in this joint and co-operative study of how to make more and better jobs in Manitoba. In addition to the work of these individuals , we have had letters and submissi ons from people wi th some advice to offer, by a good many dozen -- I was going to say hundreds -- it may well be hundreds of letters that have been received wi th practi cal suggestions of things to be looked into, and we care not whether the particular suggestion is one that can be adopted or not. We want to examine every possible opportunity for expanding our strength.

This comm ittee of 300 individuals can't, of course, be expected to do the kind of economic work and study that is required, and I report to you now that the comm ittees have retained 43 consulting firms from Manitoba, other provinces of Canada and some from the USA, to carry out the details and technical studies that are required to bring into being this searching scrutiny of the economy and the evaluation of assets and liabilities. The budget of the committee is some $575 ,0 00.00.

The provincial government is providing of that amount $200, 000 -- $7 5, 000 was provided last year and you'll find an item in the estim ates for $125, 000 this year. The balance of the fund is bei ng raised by the comm ittee itself and I am informed, although I am not in touch with the details, that they are wi thin sight of rais ing the balance of the fund to bring it up to $575 ,0 00. 00.

Well this is certainly the first time in Canada in which there has been a com bination of the leaders, and I emphasize that word "leaders" -- of the leaders of manage ment and labour and government and univers ity and the general commu nity. It's notable that the firms and corporations and organizations taking

part in this have not sent peo ple from say, the second le vel of management or second level of res ponsibil ity -- in most cases they have sent their most res ponsible officials, the heads of the organizations or the corporations, and I cannot over-emphasize my appreciation and the appreciation of the government for the work and concern that is be ing given to this great cause by the leaders of the organizations that I have mentioned, and I must say a special word about Mr.

Reg McMillan, who has accepted the chairmanship of this com mittee, because a great effort of this kind -- and I think my honour able friends wlll have seen some of the details which lead me to say that it is a great effort, by Page 51 2 March 8th, 1962

(Mr. Evans, cent' d. ) ..... the number of people engaged and the amount of money that is being spent -- this is a great responsibility, it is a great effort and an extended operation, and Mr. Reg McMillan has indeed performed a public service for the Province of Manitoba in accep ting the chairmanship and giving to it the diligence and hard work that he has put into this operation. I'd like to say a word about the questi on of transportation, and make some very sketchy com ments on the report of the McPherson Royal Commissi on on Transportation.

As the honour able members know, Volume 1 was received last Ap ril and Volume 2 was received at the end of last January. There is no indication yet as to what, if any, legisl ation may be based on the re port. But I may say that Manitoba is very gratified at the number of suggestions put forward by Manitoba,. a number of proposals put forward by Manitoba, that have been accepted. Out of 12 proposals by the province, six have been acce pted entirely, three have been accept ed in part and so far three have had no action recom mended on the part of the Royal Comm ission.

With regard to the inequities in the freight rate struct ure the commissi on recomm ended a maximum rate at 250% of variable costs based on a 30, 000 pound car minimum. The com mission believes that the implem entation of this recom mendation will see the end of horizontal percentage rates increases , this great incubus that has hung over Manitoba and the rest of west ern Canada for so long and has been such a handicap, and while this partly meets our re com mendation, its impact on Manitoba shippers requires technical examination.

Our recom mendation on unduly depressed rates in relation to minimum rates , has been adopted. The commiss ion did not deal with our recom mendation that the rates of the water carriers on the Great Lakes be regulated on a basis of cost. We believe this is com pletely inconsistent with the commissi on's positive statement that carriers be required to establish rates based on costs . We protes ted discrimination against Manitoba's intermed iate location.

We maintained that the rate from Winnipeg to Vancouver should be lower than the rate from Toronto to Vancouver, on the same commodity, and while the com mission made no recomme ndation it's significant that the Canadian National Railway agreed with our proposal -- they accept ed the proposal in prin ciple . Our recomm endation that inter-line rates be based on the shortest through mileage was adopted.

With respect to burdens imposed by law or publ ic policy, the commissi on adopted in total our proposal for having the nation as a whole lift from the freight shippers the burdens created by unecono mic and deficit passenger services . The comm ission adopted com pletely Manitoba's proposal of having the national treasury lift from the shippers the burden of uneconomic and unprofitable branch line operations . The commissi on also agreed that the problems created by line abandonment must be alleviated.

It suggested that commercial and industrial com panies with investments tied to rail facilities , might be offered concess ions by the federal government. This would refer to country line elevators which might be affected by the removal of the rail line, who might consol idate existing elevators and be given some advantage with regard to in creased deprec iation rates to overcome at least a part of the handicap imposed on them. Now we come to the subject of the Crew 's Nest rates -- the statutory rates on export grain. The commissi on only partly adopted Manitoba's recomme ndations .

The comm ission agreed with us that the present rates on the movement of grain and grain products to export positions should remain at their present level and under the control of Parliament -- so far, so good. The Commissi on did not agree with our recomme ndation that there be no comp ensa tion or subsidy to the railw ays for the movement of export grain. The railways alleged a revenue shortfall of $17 million for the CPR and $17. 1 milli on for the CNR.

The provinces of Manitoba and Al berta gave evidence to show that there was no shortfall and I might say here that we matched com puter versus com puter with them, because the railways brought into play the latest, these fantastic calculating machines, and brought in certain calculations up on which they based their alleged shortfall.

Well we, at very cons iderable expense I might say, went out and we hired com puters on our side and experts on our side, and we presented at least as well-consi dered a case and as well -founded and as well-es tabl ished a case as they did to show that there was indeed no shortfall and that, in fact, the grain traffic did contribute somet hing towards the overhead of the com pany. The com mission, however, did find a shortfall of only $2 million for the CPR and $4 million for the CNR and recomme nded a subs idy in this amount.

In addition the commiss ion recomme nded an annual contribution for overhead rel ated to export grain of $9 million for the CPR and $7 .3 million for the CNR . We will continue to op pose any subs idy March 8th, 1962 Page 51 3

(Mr. Evans, cont'd. ) ..... attached to the grain movement, especially when in our view it is not required to pay the costs of the railw ay because if aid is to be given to our farmers we want it to be given to the farmers and not, in our opinion, to a railway for conducting the kind of traffic on which we contend that they make their full costs and, indeed, contribute something to the overhead operation.

The comm ission refused to consider the subs tantial benefits re ceiv ed by the CPR as a part of the Crow's Nest Pass agreement. . ..... the non-rail asset s and earnings, the commissi on did not recomme nd that assets and earnings of the railway com panies in businesses and investments other than railways be taken into account in setting freight rates. We disagree wi th this recomme ndation. The effect wi ll be that the railways are per mi tted all the advantages of public assis tance as railway companies but none of the obligations of operating the railway companies wi th that assis tance.

The ques tion of cost studies is pretty fundamental, this whole question of transportation rates . Manitoba's recom mendation was adopted in total. The commissi on recom mended an adequate costing sec tion in the Board of Transport Commiss ioners . This is im portant in order to enable shippers to determine whether their rates are in fact equitable . Manitoba's recom mendation for a national transportation advisory council to recomm end broad policies was adopted in its entirety.

Northern development freight rates: the commissi on agreed with Manitoba's position on the importance of transportation at reasonable rates for development of the north. We ll , the report of the commi ssi on is very satisfactory in certain im portant aspects . But action must follow. Legislation wi ll be no doubt considered by those responsible. There may be required amendments to The Railway Act, The Transport Act and perhaps others .

Our study is continu ing and we're looking to action to assist the railway comm ittee wi th any information or views that we may have to bring into actual existence some of the advantages that should be ours and which are noted in the report itself. In this we wi ll continue to seek the active co-operation of the Manitoba Transportation Commi ssi on, which as the honourable memb ers wi ll know, co ordinates the representations on behalf of business , agriculture and government and presents a united front when matters of this kind are up for consideration.

Well, I have ranged rather far and rather. wide -- there 's a number of quite different sub ject s that do come into these fundamentals required for industrial development wi thin the pro vince. In sum mary, may I say that quite often the real object s of industrial development are obscured by the language of econom ists and certain writers. We so often hear and we so often use a kind of shorthand about potential and economic developm ent and we alth and income and all those other technical phrases which are so divorced from the flesh and blood and the actual real needs of people.

In Manitoba we' re trying to develop a partnership wi th bus iness to develop and utilize our local resources both human, natural, agricultural and social, in a manner to provide an adequate and well-r ounded living for all. We want any Manitoba boy or girl to have the opportunity to settle down in his own home, in his own home town, to seek not only a way of living which wi ll provide adequate means for him but satisfying work so that he can make his or her best contribution to the economy.

We look upon the government as the junior partner be cause the main burden must be assumed by the senior partner -- bus iness. I think there is some tendency, perhaps, from time to time in my own thinking -- and I hope I correct myself whenever it does come -- to think that we in government are doing this ; that we are res pon sible for or should have credit for the development of these great factories and the list of de velopments which you will find before you.

I think we must stop and say to ourselves pretty firmly that business is the senior partner in this and we seek only to find in what ways we can be helpful, in what ways we can perform services that they cannot or have not yet been able to perform for themselv es. Bus iness must be res pons ible for the planning and the decisions. Busi ness must, to the greatest possible extent, assume the risk ; they must assume the risk of loss and in that case they are entitled to the profits. They must provide the initiative and drive. Government cannot compete against its own citizens or shouldn't.

As I've indicated we'r e try ing to help business to grow by discovery of capacity to produce wi thin the province, through our regional studies , our raw material studies, our development and discovery of skills . We are discoveri ng opportunities to put this capacity to work through what we call our feasibility studies and our market studies. And then we are putting capacity and opportunity together and we are increasing the chances of success by provi<;ling financial and technical assist ance. And Page 514 March 8th, 1962

(Mr. Evans, cont1d. ) ..... we're doing all this to help to provide the opportunity to work for all who are able and wi lling to work. We believe it will help to maintain family ties, com munity pride, if jobs are available in the cities and towns where people grow up and where they were educated. And this applies· to urban centres such as Winnipeg as well as to our rural areas. We've a long way to go and the task is a difficult one, but I believe it is the kind of a program that will have the support of this Legislature. MR. HRYHOR CZUK: Mr.

Chairman, that certainly was a very well prepared treatment of the department, and I was going to start my little contribution by referring to the annual re port to just reca ll to the members of the House the importance of the department and what its objecti ves. were. I think the Honourable Minister has done a much better job in setting out the objectives and what they are doing to attain them than I could have by referring to the said re port and quoting from it. His talk is very convincing.

In fact for a while there I wondered whether I should be getting up and whether my figures and my little bit of resea rch has been accurate or not. I was basing what I had to say on the annual report which only covers infor mation to the end of March 31st , 196 1, but the Minister was kind enough to br ing us up to date wi th some additional information and I think there's some additional information in these pam phlets that have been dist ributed to us this afternoon. Now briefly, Mr.

Chairman, as I understand, the res ponsibility of this department is an endeavour to establish more industries in the province, thereby create more jobs and on the whole im prove tpe economy of the province. In addition to that there is the objective of increas ing the number of tourists that visit Manitoba. Well, Mr.

Chairman, in spite of what I'v e heard this afternoon and in spite of the hundreds of news items and material mailed from this depart ment to me, which I have followed pretty carefully, I am satisfied and I think that I can satisfy the me mbers of this House, that this government has not done the work in this department that the previous government did in the last two years of its administration. Now I see that some of the backbenchers on the government side feel kind of skeptical about this remark but I think they will agree wi th me when I get through wi th what I have to say. New to me, Mr.

Chairman, what is actually being done here is just a lot of brainwashing by ell pol"t propagandists and publicity agents. And that's all it is. Are the achievements equal to the propaganda and public ity that is given this department? And the answer is a flat "No", Mr. Chairman. Is the department doing the efficient and beneficial work that has led us and everybody else to believe that it is ? The answer is "No" again, Mr. Chairman. Will the de partment stand up under what is comm only known as the cost-benefit analysis ? Again the an swer is "No", Mr. Chairman.

Now my conclusions are based on the following two factors : the high cost of operating this department in relation to the amount of work that is actually produced -- the result of that produced; and the results achieved by this government as compared wi th those of the former government. Now let us take a look at the cost of administration of this department. Under the first item, the costs of administration amount to $147 ,0 00 in round figures. · Let's take a look at some of the other departments.

Welfare - $14 9, 000 -- just about equivalent to what the cost of administration of this department is ; Public Util ities - $32, 000; Agriculture - $8 1, 000, just a little better than half of what it costs to administer this depart ment. Now let us see how it com pares wi th the cost of administration of this department under the former government. This government - $147 , 000; the former government in estima tes ending March 31 st, 1958 - $74, 000 or approximately one-half the cost. Now the over-all appro priations that are in this department, this year's $1, 498 , 422 . 00.

Now for purposes of compari son, we have to deduct the appropriation for civil defence which amounts of $67 ,0 37 , which leaves a balance of $1, 43 1, 385, as compared wi th the former government's appropriation as of March 31, 1958 , with $688 ,6 55.00. Which means an increase in the total appropriations of $742, 00 0. 00. More than double. What about the personnel in this department? As of March 31, 19 58, there were 47 est ablishments . Now there are 91. The personnel has tripled. Salaries under the former government as of the date which I gave was $157 , 000. 00.

What are the salaries in these estimat es? $480, 000 -- more than tripled. Now that is well and good, Mr. Chairman, if we can show results for the spending of that money, but I'm sorry to say, Mr. Chairman, that we cannot. And I'm going to go to the information that has been supplied to this House by the annual report of the Department of Industry and Commer ce and Manitoba March 8th, 1962 Page 515

(Mr. Hryhorczuk, cont1d. ) ....• Development Authority, for period ending March 31, 196 1 and I wi ll also use some of the information which the Minister has given us this afternoon. Now let us -- because I have this in tha:t order and the Minister hasn't dealt wi th the tourist trade, but I'm going to go into the tourist trade in Manitoba first, and when he gets up to speak on it he can rebut anything that I have said. -- (Interjecti on) -- Well , I'm afraid the Honourable Minister is in for quite a disappointment if he looks at his work factually and prac tically and gets out of orbit and gets back to earth.

We want practical results. All these high sounding phrases , these continuous studies for four years , the surveys, that have cost hundreds of thous ands of dollars , if they are producing results, well and good. But they are not produc ing results. Let us look at page 30 of the report, the annual report. And I' m going to quote this because the Honourable Minister didn't speak on tourism so I'm going to quote from here as to why this particular branch of the department exists and what is .... MR.

EVANS: ....... honourable mem ber would mind if I did raise a point, but I asked wh ether the com mittee would consider it acceptable if I dealt wi th industry and then made a se parate statement on tourism later on, and I heard no disagreement. In fact I think his Leader nodded and the Leader of this party nodded ...... the other gentleman wasn't there, and I think the honourable memb er might be willing to concede me that request that I made that we deal wi th that separately. MR. HRYHOR CZUK: Mr. Chairman, the Honourable Minister has got either a very short or a very convenient memo ry.

The Honourable Leader of the Opposition got up and said that the member of the party was going to speak and he was going to cover tourism and he asked whether the Honourable Minister was agreeable to that and the answer was "yes". MR. EVANS: I have no way of stopping the honourable memb er if he doesn't want to grant me my request. MR. HRYHOR CZUK: No , I don't. I don't want to break up the trend of my speech any more than the Honourable Minister would have liked to have his interfered wi th.

Well, on page 30 of this annual report we read as follows, and I quote: "The number of Canadian tourists vis iting Manitoba has shown a steady increase in rcecent years. Several fac tors have influenced this trend, such as the high level of the Canadian economy and the resultant abil ity of individuals to allocate more disposable dollars for travel and vacation. " Arid then it goes on to say: "The increased population of Saskatchewan, Alberta and British Columbia is creating a major tourist market in west ern Canada which promises to sustain the high level of Manitoba's tourist trade.

The diversification of industry in the prairie provinces in the past decade, the productiOn of new wealth from varied natural resources and consequently higher level of personnel and corporate income have combi ned to produce a growing tourist potential at Manitoba's west ern doorstep. " It would appear from this that the climate for this particular type of trade is excellent. The economy is good, the will to go places is there and the money to spend is there. You would think, under those circumstances, the government would show considerable improvement for what was done by the former government.

Well, let's take a look at the facts, Mr. Chairman. If you look at page 31 of the annual report, you wi ll find that in 1956 the tot:J.l number of tourists is given as 990, 730. Now let's see how this increases from year to year, and then we will see whether this government, in spite of all its st udies , plans, surveys, comm ittees and everything else, whether it is doing better work than the former government did for far less money, less personnel. All right. In 1957 , the number of tourists were increased that year by 69, 000. In 1958 , they were increased by 75, 000 .

All right, here is where the government takes over and let's see what happens wi th the numbers of tourists that come into Manitoba from then on. What is the increase in numbers every year ? In '57, it was 69, 000; in '58, it was 75, 000. And when we come to 159 what do we find? The increase has dropped from 75, 000 to 67 , 000. We go to 196 0, what do we find there? The annual increase has dropped from the 67 , 000 of '59, to 54, 000. And in 196 1, the annual increase is 58, 000.

"In other words the annual increase in tourist traffic into Manitoba is lower right now than it was in the year 1957 or the year 19 58. There is a constant drop in the result of the efforts of this government. What about the tourist expenditures? Because after all, we don't only want the individuals, we want the money they spend here. And let's see what's happened to them. Well in 1956 the total amount spent here in Manitoba by tourists amounted to $28 ,9 00, 000. 00, In 1957 we see an Page 51 6 March 8th, 1962

(Mr. Hryborczuk, cont'd. ) ..... increase of $1, 900 , 000. 00. In '58 we see an increase of $1, 800 , 000 . 00. What happens in '59 ? The si ze of the increase is down to $1, 700, 000 . 00. It stays at that in 1960 at $1, 700, 000, and in '61, accordi ng to the figures tabled here this after noon, it's dropped down to $700 ,0 00. 00. Not even half of the increase that we realized last year. Where is all this wonderful work and planning and cos t? What is it bringing us ? Are we not spending money which is not giving value to the taxpayers of this province?

And I'd like to point out, and I'd like to point out, Mr. Chairman, an additional factor that we must not over look. We have a second tourist agency in the province of Manitoba now which we didn't have in 19 58, and that is the Manitoba Travel and Convention Associ ation to which this government is contributing in the following year $1 5, 000. 00. Now I think it's quite fair to say that probably it is this agency that is res ponsible for the increases that have occurred and then if we do that, then this government gets no credit whatsoever. Whichever way you take it the results are not there.

Now let's take a look at the industrial picture that we hear so much about, and this doesn't fare any better. In fact the picture is worse. From all propaganda and publicity that we've been getting, and we had an exceptionally good samp le of it here this afternoon, anybody sit ting back and listening to the Honourable Minister would think, "Well, isn't this a wonderful department? Just look what it's doing. " All this wi shful thinking and imagination they have, but outside of that, I don't see too mu ch anywheres. Well the proof of the pudding, honourable Sir , is in the eating.

And when I took a look at this pudding that you have kept in the show window before the public of Manitoba for four years, and took it out of there and opened it, I found that it was made of the poorest grade of flour that could be manufactured here in west ern Canada and instead of being tasteful and delic ious and nutritious, it was flat. Now let's go back to the annual report again. And I'd turn the members' attention to page 44, and what do we find there? Well in Table 1, we have gross value of production in Manitoba, and this is very, very interesti ng, Mr.

Chairman, because after all the flowery language and you get down to brass tacks you find out the tWo don't jibe at all. Well first we have agriculture , and of course this government can't take too much credit or blame for pro duction in agricultur_e because that de pends on the weather more than anything else and the weather is not any more predic table than what the Honourable Minister is. But we'll notice that the production year is pretty constant and we look back to 1956 , it was $3ll million; in 19 60, it was $315 million. I haven't got the figure for '61, it wasn't given to us today.

So we'll just disc ount that one as being on its own. Now let's take natural resources , and if you look at the note there it says: "this includes fish, fur, forestry, mining, electric power," and, Mr.

Chairman, that insofar as this particular branch is concerned, I'd like to rem ind you that we have beard continuously about the improveme nts in co-mmerc ial fishing by use of traps and so forth and so on; we've heard that our game and fish branches , the services in there have been streaml ined suppose dly for efficiency; we hear brags about what is going on in the far north, and what' is being done in mi ning and electrical power; well let's look at the facts , and what do we find? Gross value of production in 1960 is the same as it was in 1956 -- $122 million. Just the same as it was in 1956.

It hasn't im proved any. Then what's all this talk apout? What's all this talk about? Then we go into manufacturing. Let's see what manufacturing looks like and we heard quite a bit about manufacturing and the plans that this government has and the $200, 000 they're spending on so me more studies with so me big comm ittee. Well I hope that that one proves out because the others sure didn't. Now we just read reams and reams of literature that comes out from this propaganda departm ent as to what is supposed to be happening. Well let's see what is happening.

If you look at this table you will notice that in the last tWo years of Liberal administ ration production increased by 47 million, that is, from 156 to 158. Now what's hap pened since this government took over? Under this government's adm inistration the production increased in tWo years by 33 million -- far less than what it increased under the former admin istration, wi thout all that personnel, wi thout all that extra cost, wi thout all the study, these commi ttees, these plans , these trips to Europe to see how the European market is going to work and all this st uff. Is it necessary ?

Is it producing resu lts ? You see from that that lt is a loss in the increase in the tWo year period of 14 million as com pared from what this govern ment and what the former government did in its last tWo years of operation, and lf you look at March 8th, 1962 Page 51 7

(Mr. Hryhorczuk, cont1d.) ..... this closely you'll see that the annual increase between 1959 and 1960 actually dropped by 14 million. There was no improvement. It went the other way. Well then we have construction. Well I don't think: that this government can take any blame or credit in this regard either, because this construction depends to a great deal on our building of the homes as financed by the federal government and so forth. But let's take a look at the combined total. No improvement whatsoever over the efforts of the last administration.

Oh, construction is up, but surely the Honourable Minister -- (Interje ction) -- Well , you've got them right in front of you. Well , when you get up to rebut me you can give those figures . If you can get any ..... out of that, more power to you. Now let's look at the combined total. During the last two years of the former government's operation the grand total of value of factory shipments increased by 103 million.

During the two-year period from '59 to the end of 160 -- that's '59 and '60 -- the increase under this ad ministration was only 100 million, less than it was under the former administration, and again I want to say, Mr. Chairman, wi thout all that hullabaloo and all that money spent, and all the personnel and everything else. Now let's take a look at Table 2 which appears at the bottom of the same page. Let's look at est ablishments . Now what have we got under the number of est ablishments ? You will see, Mr.

Chairman, that the number of establishments in the last two years, the increase in the number of establishm ents in the last two years of the former government's administration, the number we nt up by 100 establishments. Now what happened when these people took over the government of this province ? It dropped in 1959, it came up in 1960, but the sum total of these two years is only 66 as compared with 100 of the former administration, and you have to add this year's increase of 41, which means three years' administration to equal the performance of the former government in two years. Now , Mr.

Chairman, that same thing is true right across the board, no matter where you look. I don't want to take up any more time. My only purpose of getting up was to point out that practical results are not there, and I said this on the Throne Speech in connection with other departrmnts, and Mr. Chairman, wi th one or two exceptions, the same is true of every department of the government.

In order to maintain the pace of growth set by the former government -- not to improve but merely to keep it -- this government em ploys three times as many persons at three times the cost and, in addition,i s pouring millions in public funds into private industry at a cost to the taxpayers of a quarter of a million dollars, and I don't think we should overlook that factor, that under our Development Fund we are pouring public funds into private industry which wasn't done before, at a cost -- if you look at your estima tes you'll find that that's be ing done at a cost of $25 0, 000 to the people of this province.

Is that expenditure justified? Now what is the fair and just conclusion after we see the facts as they actually are? That this government is not matching the performance and efficiency shown by the former government in this department, and I say, Mr. Chairman, that they'll have to do a little more than plan and survey and plan and study and survey over and over and over again. They've been doing it for four years. I think the people of the Province of Manitoba are entitled to some practical results .

The government front benchers have the habit of always turning to us and saying: "Well, if you think we're spending too much, where can we save ?" Well , Mr. Chairman, if they're looking for a place to pare the overhead this is as good a place to start as any. • . . . . . . . . Continued on nex� page Page 518 March 8th, 1962

1\ffi. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, my honourable and learned and genial friend over there does remind me of Brer Fox so oft en. He looks up with that genial smile of his, and there's something about his general bearing and •.•.•• appearance does remind me of Brer Fox. I hope he doesn't mind this comparison but I never saw a better example of sour grapes in my life .

While my honourable friend has displayed very considerable talent as a special leader and taken hold of some extremely meagre facts and made quite a good deal of sound and fury out of it, I must admit, fortunately it doesn't have any basis for the remarks that he has made and I would like to touch on some of his comments. · Now the industrial development program is not producing results . That's undoubtedly a fair

interpretation of what he said under that heading. 1\ffi. HRYHORC ZUK: Mr. Chairman, providing that he says "compared with the results obtained by the former government" - yes. 1\ffi. EVANS: Compared with the results obtained under the fo rmer administration. I wouldn't want to misquote my friend for a minute because I don't have to. Now I wonder if my honourable friend will take out his list of accomplishments during the period and point out to me an item to compare with page 3 of the

summary of operations that I pmvided him with. At Carberry , where J. R. Simplot -- he asked me for , •••• • results and, Mr. Chairman, I'm going to have to take some time. I point out to the honourable member , for his education, the facts of the case and ask him to match the items that we're drawing to his attention. The people of Carberry would find it hard to believe that there's any thing to match the operations of the J. R.

Simplot Company of Canada, which is opening up a potato process iilg plant to make instant potatoes, french frie s, frozen potato patties , hashed browns, dehydrated diced and sliced potatoes, etc. The investment at that plant will be $3 1/2 million. The building is 175, 000 square feet. It will employ 30 0 people at Carberry at the commencement of operations. This will grow rapidly to 500 people and the eventual employment there will be 700 people.

Well, I just invite my honourable friend to comment on that as to whether that is an accomplishment comparable with some unknown accomplishments that he is talking about under his administration. -- (Interjection) -- It's a good plant. The. employment will open on April 1, 1962. That isn't all we did for Carberry -- not the only opportunity that came to Carberry partly through our operations . The Stramit Corporation came there, and they picked up a new process.

They're going to take wheat straw, that in the former days was simply destroyed and was of no account at all, and they're going to buy it from the farme rs -- I think at $12 . 00 a ton if I recall -- and make it into strawboard. In fact they're doing it now. The investment is $175 , 000 , the building is 72, 000 square feet and it's employing 40 people and it did open on June 1, 19 61. Now we come to an item at Sprague -- the Columbia Forest Products Limited. I wonder if my honourable friend would point to something down in southeast Manitoba that will compare with ••.•• - - (Interjection) -- Mr.

Chairman, I ask the same privilege from my honourable friend. · 1\ffi. HRYHORCZUK: You asked me a question, I want to answer. 1\ffi. EV ANS: I didn •t rise in my place and my honourable friend . MR . CHAffiMAN: Order ! Order! 1\ffi. EVANS: So in southeast Manitoba we have the Columbia Forest Products. That was quite a shouting match. When you can't depend on logic just shout is apparently the best thing. Now what do you want? 1\ffi. JOHN P. TANCHAK (Emerson): Will you permit just one question please ? MR . EVANS: I would prefer my honourable friend to wait until I'm finishe d. 1\ffi. TANCHAK: That's fine .

Thank you. MR . EVANS: This is just a private show between the Honourable Member for Ethelbert Plains and myself at the momimt. -- (Interjection) -- This is a process known as wood flakes bonded together with a resin binder. The product is particle board and there's an investment down there at Sprague of $3 million. The building is 50 , 000 square fe et, it employs 75 people in the plant and is giving employment to 75 others in woods operation. In Transcona there's the Western Archrib (Manitoba) Limited with laminated wood beams, investment $100 ,0 00 .

I'm not going to make this too painful but I'm going to invite the honour- March 8th, 1962 Page 519

(Mr . Evans, cont'd. ) ••.• able membe rs to follow down this list, item after item, and tbese are all factories that were assisted to come to :Manitoba directly by the operations of my de partment, and as you glance through these , I ask the honourable member to put opposite each one a comparable achievement in any single year under his administration.

Now we turn to the question of tourism , and he pointed to the boom years of 1956 , '57 and 158 and he indicated increases in the tourist business in those years and then he took the years in which a reces sion hit us -- though my honourable friend may not have known this up in Ethel bert Plains -- but there was a decline in economic conditions from those earlier years until now.

He points with great pride -- or great glee -- to the fact that in 1959 there was a falling off in the tourist business from 75 down to 67 in the volume of tourists attracted to the province by the operations of his government before they were thrown out, and so the decline surely, in the succeeding years , is the responsibility of my honourable friend. The amounts of money held up relatively well , I think he'll admit, although he quoted them for some reason that I don •t know.

Well , the Manitoba Travel Convention Associa tion apparently deserve all the cre dit for this but we deserve the credit for the Manitoba Travelling Convention Assoc iation. My honourable friend will remember I outlined this plan to him when he sat on this side of the House and I was over there.

I indicated to him that it was time some one got together and tried to enlist into the tourist business, into the attraction of tourists and the development of tourist attractions here, some of the business interests and then, he not having taken action, we took action ourselves and brought the Travel Convention Assoc iation into being, and on this occ asion I would like to pay tribute to them , because they have performed a most remarkable service for Manit oba and I would like to direct attention to the amount and kind of work that has been done by particularly Mr . Maitland Steinkopf and now Mr .

Jack McMullen as president of that Associ ation, and not only those two but by the very large board that has been assembled to try to enlist to gether all of those interested in the tourist development in Manitoba and the very effective and devoted and hard work that they have done in this cause . I am glad that the honourable member did draw attention to this, and I make only this limited comment at this point because I propose to say something further about the tourist business at a later date. My honourable friend ran over some of the statistics of production in the agriculture and natural resources field.

The figures were quoted in the annual report of the Department of In dustry and Commerce, very largely as economic statistics , although perhaps he will recognize that responsibility in these regards is in with other ministers and they're quite able to look after themselves. I don't need to defend them. So those are the comments that I would offer at this time on the speech of my friend . • • • •. MR. HRYHORCZUK: Mr .

Chairman, I'm not going to get into a debating match here, but I haven't the list of all the establishments in the Province of Manitoba; there are over 1, 600 of them, in fact 1, 700 now, I understand, and the honourable minister can take credit for which ever of them he wants to out of the 1, 700 , but I would like to just remind him of several that would match anything they have done and probably match all of what they have done, and that is the Campbell Soup, the Manitoba Paper Company, the International Nickel at Thompson, the Winkler plant and there are many others.

Now he blames the recessi on for the falling down in the tourist traffic and so forth. No doubt there is. No doubt that has some effect, but this is the first time I've heard about a reces sion from that side of the House . Every time I've picked up anything that they had to say about the conditions in the Speech from the Throne, the economy was buoyant, the prospects were good, and even in today's speech, why everything was glowing. I didn't hear anything about a recession until you have to find an excuse for not having done anything. MR . TANCHAK: Mr .

Chairman, I was going to ask a question of the honourable minister but I notice that he's paid me back for refusing to answer a question when I spoke previously. I just wonder which of the two figures is right out of this propaganda sheet that he refers to constantly. We've been told that 2 1/2 million was the investment in that Sprague plant .and now we've heard three . I'd like to know which one is right. Is it $3 million or is it $2 1/2 million?

And then the honourable minister just mentioned that the plant in Sprague -- and I agree with him that it was quite an accomplishment; it's one of the wonderful things for southeastern Manitoba; I'v e been out there with him -- but when he stands up and he says that presently the plant is employing 75 men inside and 75 outside, that is , as far as 75 inside, it may be correct Page 520 March 8th, 1962

(Mr. Tanchak, cont'd.) •••• if you take all the different shifts, but as far as 75 outside , it's absolutely incorrect. They are not employing any outside . The reason for that is this , that a year ago -- last winter, not this winter -- the plant purchased enough raw material to do them a full season , but they were not in operation last year, therefore they are processing the raw material, the poplar that was bou ght last winter . This winter they're not purchasing any pop lar, therefore there are none employed as a direct result of this plant outside . So that figure is incorrect.

There are no men employed outside the plant, and who is to blame for that? I'm not prepared to say, but the thing is that the plant did not start operation according to plan . The operation is just beginning and they have to use up the raw material, therefore it is not employing 75 men outside . MR. EVANS: I didn't intend to say, if I did say, that they are employing 7 5 outside , but they will provide employment for 75 outside when in operation. My honourable friend indicates that they're only jus t starting to operate and this is correct.

They have been tuning up the plant and I don't think it can be said that it's in operation yet. Now as a way of showing their inter est in my honourable friend's area, this company went ahead and bought poplar far in advance of their requirements . The opening is just about on

schedule •. This is the time in whi0h the plant was scheduled to begin operation, but in order to show their willingness to co-operate with the people who live in that area, they went ahead and invested in raw material piles, those great huge piles that we 've all seen down at the plant who have been there, and they invested in those in order to show their willingness to co-operate with and to provide buying power for the people in my honourable friend's area.

Having piled as much material there as they possibly qould, it's perhaps to be understood that they wouldn't buy any more or provide any more em ployment in the woods until they've used up some of it. I think they have gone at least as far as one could expect them to go , and farther , in a really generous gesture to the people of my honourable friend' s area in buying this raw material as far in advance as they did, and this was a deliberate act on their part. As far as I'm aware , the correct figure for investment in that plant is $3 million. MR .

TANCHAK: ••••• the fact that intention was good there , but it seems to me -- I may be wrong, and if I am wrong I'll apologize to the Minister -- but it seems to me that the Minister did state that it employed 75 men inside and 75 men out , and that's the only one I took objection to because I don't want the House to be mislead that presently employing 75. As far as the good intentions of the company, I agree with the Honourable Minister that they did purchase the raw material last year , but I don't think it's helping the people this year because they can't sell any. So it's either last year or this year .

I mean it isn't helping the wood cu tter at present because they're not purchasing any. Next year it wilL MR . J. M. FROESE (Rhineland): Mr. Chairman, in conne ction with that plant, I've been told that that firm is unable to export their product to the United States. Is that correct? MR . EVANS: Yes, Mr . Chairman, the or iginal product that was des igned to be exported has encounte red some tariff difficulty. They, however, are altering the product and will be able to export it into the United States market in its altered form. MR . RUSSELL PAULLEY (Leader of the New Democratic Party)(Radisson) : Mr .

Chair man , I feel I should make a comment or two on this very important department becmi se of the responsibilities of this department to attempt to achieve in the Province of Manitoba, I almost was going to say "continued growth industrially" but I'll just amend that by saying growth indu s trial-wise, in the province . I was somewhat amused to hear the interchange between the Hon ourable the Minister of Industry and Commerce and the Honourable Member for Ethelbert Plains because of the fact that, to me, it was the pot calling the kettle black.

I have in my possession, I would sugge st, at least 20 well-bound documents of surveys dating back to 1953 , '54 and '5 5, that were prepared at the reque st of the former government , and I wonder whether or not all of those reports are still gathering the same dust as they did for the years that the former administration reigned here in the Province of Manitoba. It does seem to me that the present administration is continuing in the same manner . I don't think there's very much difference between them.

Those that were in the House a few years ago will recall the favourite expres sion of my honourable friend at that time from Winnipeg North, I believe it was , prior to redis tribution, Donovan Swailes, when he used to refer to the department and their propaganda as gobbledygook, or something of that particular nature . I think that it is still continuing . March 8th, 1962 Page 521

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd .) •••• First of all , may I say, Mr. Ch airman, to the Minister that I agree most heartily with him when he says that it's going to require the co-opera tion of government, management and labour to advance . I suggest, Sir, that , to a conside rable degree , that this has been so , but it needs even more close co -operation between these various segments in our economy . But I think, Mr . Chairman, that the approach of the Minister is not too realistic .

I don't think that it's really possible for us here in Manitoba to be in a position to leap further ahead in the ex portation of our manufactured articles until such times as we make as a requisite, those who are using our natural resources to come here into the Province of Manitoba the second ary in dustries to produce the product that we have here in the province .

I was very interested to see , the other day, a report on the matter of International Nickel where their busine ss had incre ased, where here , in the Province of Manitoba, due to the coming in on a larger scale the mines at Thompson, that the net value of mining produced here in the Province of Manitoba had increased to a considerable degree . It's true the Minister could tell me that they have a smelting plant starting at Thompson -- I think I'm right in that -- but this really is only a small lump in what is required in the whole of the Province of Manitoba.

We appreciate and we realize that becaus e of the development at Thompson a considerable number of additional people are employed in the Province of Manitoba. There is no gainsaying that matter at all. But it's equally true that Manitoba, as well as the whole of the Dominion of Canada, has not kept pace with many other nations in progress in the field of providing employment and increasing our national provincial productivity. I would like to just draw to the attention of the House what I think is a far more valid approach to this problem .

In the very flowery oration that we heard from our Minister as to where we're going he mentioned the fact of the National Productivity Council and it's head ed, as we all know , by Mr. H. G. DeYong, one of the imports from the United States of America who has become a Canadian. I would suggest , Mr. Chairman, if more of the individuals that we im port or emigrate from the United states to here became Canadians , and particularly their dollars and cents that come from the United states would become Canadian, we 'd all be better off in Canada.

Because , Sir, while American capital. is undoubtedly assisting in the developing of our natural products here in the Province of Manitoba, it is equally true that the manufacture of the products is being done mainly outside of the province . Mr . De Yong made a few very pertinent remarks and I would suggest that the members of the committee should get a copy of the Merit News published by the Industrial Acc eptance Corporation, the September '61 edition, wherein Mr . DeYong mentions that we have to work smarter. He has, I think a valid criticism, - (Interjection) -- smarter.

He has a very valid criticism, I think, of Canada and its people and its attitudes and I think this also is true here in the Province of Manitoba at the present time , when he says that we have no unity of pur�ose , no national goal. Now when I say to my honour able friend that we have no national goals , no provincial goals, I know that he will say to me that I am wrong -- I am quoting DeYong, of course -- and the Minister will point to the fact that we have now set up this committee on Manitoba's Ec onomic Future .

And I say, and I join in the tribute that he paid to the members of this committee , that they have a tremendous task and we wish them every succe ss . But as Mr. DeYong points out that we'v e had these types of set-ups before and he , in effect, says that not too much has come of them . We hope certainly in respect of this one it -- that it will , because he says of the Productivity Council , and I'm going to quote directly from him, he says, "I wish I coul d say that our own Productivity Council was already making a major contribution towards Canadian economy resu rgence , but it is not ." And through out his

article he points out that whe reas other countries have taken such studies as this and made something of them that we here in Canada have yet not developed a national or provincial desire on the type of basis that is required to advance economically. The Honourable Minister mentioned the fact that we have to set up industries here in the Province of Manitoba. He men tioned the fact that it should be done to make it more profitable to locate here in the Province of Manitoba.

I ask him directly what does he mean when he states that -- to work more pro fitably here in the Province of Manitoba -- because there are so many connotations which can be placed on a statement of that nature that I would like to have a fuller explanation. Now, Mr . Chairman, I'm not going to be overly critica l of the Minister . I wasn't overly critical of the former administration so I'l l treat him the same as I did the former administra- Page 522 March 8th, 1962

(Mr. Paulley , cont'd.) •.• tion in saying that we 're not yet hitting at the base reason, we here in Canada as a whole have slipped, that our woole economy has slipped. We're not making the progress either nationally or provincially that we should . I would like to ask the Honourable Minister another question dealing with the pamphlet that he has placed before us -- The Objec tive Method Program of the Comm ittee on Manitoba's Economic Future.

The very first page that we looked at in the book deals with the prime objective of 40 ,0 00 additional jobs by 1970, and I'd like to refer him for explanation to page 4 of the annual report of the Department of Industry and Commerce and ask him whether he can reconcile tlie figures that are used on the first page of the Manitoba Ec onomic booklet and those on page 4 of his annual report. Because on page 4 .of the annual report, Mr.

Chairman, it mentions that during August 1960 , the labour force in Manitoba was estimated to be 348,0 00, 97 .4 % of this force was employed compared to 94 .7 in the Canadian labour force. That would indicate to me that during the month of August in the year 1960 -- and incidentally Mr. Chairman , August generally is a month of high employment -- that our total force at work at that time was 338 ,9 52 , usi ng the percentage fig ure , giving us 9, 048 unemployed.

And yet when we read the report or the booklet in connec tion with Manitoba' s Economic Future we have the figure there of total jobs by 19 70 as being 335 ,0 00 at our present rate. I would like to ask the Minister whether he can reconcile the figures or whether actually they were prophesying that by 1970 without the Economic Council we would go down even from 1960 because the figure there is mentioned as 33 5, 000. So I would say that we would have to have found in the period between now , 1962 and 1970 a far greater number of jobs than the 40 ,0 00.

And if the percentage increase over the last number of years of our labour force in Manitoba is take n into consideration, the rate of growth of the province is taken into consideration, you'll find that we 're going to have to really go to work to achieve the goal of 375, 000 jobs by 197 0. Our rate of growth has been very slow. So I say that at the present time it doesn 't seem to me that the rate of growth is sufficient and must be trebled within the next seven years to even approach the goal. By that I don't mean , Mr.

Chairm an, that we shouldn't have goals to approach, but I think that they should be really realistic goals. But quite frankly, Sir, I say this as a Socialist, that I don't expect that by the methods that are being used, by the methods that are being sugge sted, that we are going to achieve the desire . I think we have to take a full and complete look at the whole of the economy and direct the use of our wealth for use and for the benefit of all. MR.

EVANS: Would my honourable friend let me comment on the remarks of the Leader •••• • Well, I do thank my honourable friend for some thoughtful comments and I shall do my best to provide him with information on the questions that he has asked and points that he has discussed.

With regard to the 20 or 30 reports and whether or not they are gathering dust , I can tell my honourable friend they are not, such as those that had to be brought up-to-date , they have been reviewe d, and they are among the opportunities that we are trying to call atten tion to people in the management of financia l groups to come here and start. We believ e that the studie s were good studies and we believe that a good many of the opportunities that were disclosed by those studies are still open for development and we're trying our best to see that that development occu rs.

I welcome the attitude and tone of voice with which he has joi ned in the discussi on on the question of co-operation of all the people of the province to increase the productivity of our industry here. We will have to insure as our plans go along that if we can grow a bigger melon that everybody gets their fair share. And if we can get together on that proposition and make sure that we develop the very best methods possible of growing the big gest melon possible , I think everybody's going to be better off. And I thank him for the atti tude that he has displayed toward that element of what I had to say.

Now our approach, if he feels it is not too realistic, to the problem of trying to increase the amount of production and the amount of productivity in the province, the last person who would say that we have a plan in hand or know what to do , is mysel f . This is behind the thoughts that we had to call into being such a thing as the Comm ittee on Manitoba's Ec onomic Future. That's the very reason for calling it into being, because we don't think that we have the answer .

Now my honourable friend may feel that this study may not be the answer, although I think , in general, he seemed to agree that the study itself is a good thing -- it ce rtainly won't do any harm and might , indeed, turn up the answer. I invite my honourable friend and his colleagues , and anyone else that he may be associ ated with, to give his ideas and their ideas to this March 8th, 1962 Page 523

(Mr. Evans , cont'd. ) .•.. Committee. They will be studied on their merits with the active hope that in any submissi on that comes before us we may find some further germ of an idea to help accomplish the ends that both he and I have in view. And so I do most earnestly invite him to give us any suggestion -- no matter whether it may be considered far-fetched or not -- no matter whether it may arise from his particular philosophy of being a socialist and a state manager as contrasted with mine.

I give him my assurance that it will receive consideration on its merits and will be either accepted or rejected according to whether it's good for the people of Manitoba or not. Now we should certainly go as far as we possi bly can to attract industry to come here and further process our raw materials. On that we are completely agreed.

I don't feel it would be right to say, "You cannot have our raw materials unless you come here," because we are in competition with other areas not only in this country but in foreign countries and other contin ents and other parts of the world, and we can be "dog in the manger" only to a very limited de gree and I don't think with permanent success . He and I would have a difference of view on that , but this is an honest difference of view and I do give consideration , and will continue to give con sideration to what could be done by saying to people , "We have what you want.

You come here; we 're not going to send it to you any further." This is valid -- this is good . Mr . DeYong's views with regard to the Productivity Council on the unity of purpose and national goal -- I think I see the partial effect of this . How much steam have we got in the boil er? How much drive have we got? How much pride have we got? How much confidence in ourselves? I think in all these things we can very well improve our attitudes and our energies, if you will . Canada's national consciousness has been emerging only a short time -- I think it has come long strides .

I think our confidence in ourselves to produ ce, our confidence in our selves to manufacture and to get out into the world and compe te , is comparati vely new , and as we get out and find that we can succeed -- and we have some pretty outstanding exampl es, like the International Nickel Compa ny and our paper compani es and a great many others -- that as we find we can succeed in competition our confidence will grow and I think we will have a further sense of provincial or national unity and pur pose and a national goal, which would be - well I won't develop that further at the moment.

What do I mean by profita ble ?

I mean I think just the straight propo sition as follows: - that one can bring his capital to Manitoba and invest it, place it in pla nts and equipment , hire labour at proper rates, buy materials, and come out with more money than he spent ; and if the opportunity turns out to be so rich that he is earning too much, I think the natural processes will bring him competition which will certainly have the tendency to cut down that margin and , i.rl any event, the corporation tax is something over 50% plus personal income taxes on what he might take out of it himself, ranging from 50, 60 or 70 perce nt on the highest amounts, would have the effect, I think, of bringing benefit to the people of Canada, and to some extent now to the people of Manitoba direct.

Now we may not yet be hitting at the base reason for the fact that other areas recently -- notably Germany and some of the other countries, countries of the Common Market -- have made more spectacular advances in recent years than we have. I agree -- I agree. Again we come back to the Committee on Manitoba's Economic Future. I don't think we're slipping. I don't agree with that diagnosis , but I do think we are not getting ahead as fast as we would like. Again, this is the reason for the committee.

Now as to the calculation by which we arrived at this total of 40 , 000 jobs, I find that I didn't have the calculation here that I thought I had. The 40, 000 jobs is arrived at very largely by calculating the number of people who would be available for work opportu nities at that time , which included certain numbers which would probably be further released from agriculture he cause the units are getting bigger and more and more farm workers are seeking jobs in the cities and in factories. It did take account of those .

It took account of natural increases but not immigration into the province from either elsewhere in Canada or other countri es , and made certain projections into the future of the trend at which jobs had been increasing. Now, I'll get the calculation and provide it to my hon ourable friend because then he will know the same figures that I used. They may be wrong - undoutedly they are -- nevertheless it was a scale against which we should measure the size of the task that confronts the Committee on the Economic Future. I wonder if those are the main points that my honourable friend mentioned.

Page 524 March 8th, 1962

MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, there was one futher question that I wanted an answer from him on, and if he hasn't got the information available I'd gladly await his obtaining it. He mentioned the fact that there were some 43 consulting firms acting for the committee, Mr. Chairman.

He mentioned, I believe , Manitobans , Canadians and some from the United States, and this has always been a point as far as I'm concerned, that it seems to me that we are not developing or making use of -- one or the other or a combination of both -- the talents that we have here within the Province of Manitoba. i had that criticism before when we used to -- and I believe we still do to some degree -- use the facilities of the Arthur D. Little Co. of Boston, Massachussetts and such firms.

So I would like the Minister, if he would, give me a break down of.the location of the firms who are consulting, and also I understand there is some staff at the present time -- technical research staff I presume that is working for the committee at the present time -- I would like to know whether they are products of Manitoba because I'm a firm believer in the products of Manitoba and it's for that reason in this field that I feel with some justification -- possi bly not wholly so -- that we haven't been using the products of our university here in Manitoba and others to obtain the information and data that we require for our own products .

I saw a report the other day where we're losing thousands of the graduates from our universities going across the line, and I think that if we can use the personnel and the individuals who graduate from our university for studies such as this it would be to our ad vantage, but I think the Minister knows my viewpoints on this from the past, but I think it would be of interest to the committee if we knew the locale of the firms that are consulting now. MR. EVANS: Could I just answer this one further question? I agree with the proposal to use,

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	26-5-22
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	26th 5th hansardpdf 22.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	3da5588b87cedaa0fc7037dce99d8090c57a3340

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).