Manitoba Hansard — 22 April 1974 (Sitting 98, 30th Legislature, 1st Session)

30-1-98

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8:00 P.M., Monday, April 22, 1974 COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY - CIVIL SE .tWICE Mh. CHAI.ttMAN: Civil Service Commission, Resolution No . 28 (

a) pass; (

b) pass. The Honourable Minister of Labour. 2663 MR . PAULLEY: That is correct, Mr. Chairman. I would like to introduce the Estimates of the

section of the government that deals with the Ci vil Service Commission, because after all, in this particular grouping of estimates we deal with what in my opinion is the most important function of government, and just before we rose, at about 5:20 this afternoon, there was an indication to me from both sides of the House , a desire to pass on without consideration the Estimates of the Civil Service in the Province of Manitoba. And it seems to me ••. MR . CHAlliMAN: The Honourable Member from Swan River on a point of order. MR . BILTON: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman.

I don't think it was suggested from this side of the House that the matter should be passed over in the matter of civil servants as the Minister will find out. MR . PAULLEY: I don't think my honourable fr iend has a point of order, but if he will recall and look up Hansard, the remarks of the Honourable Member for Morris , he will find an indication that we should have passed or I should have made my introductory remarks in a period of ten minutes. --(Interjection)-- Yes, and there's a bunch of horses of differ ent colours too in this Chamber. I would suggest, Mr.

Chairman, that the Civil Service and the civil servants of the Province of Manitoba deserve more than a mere introduction of ten minutes by the Minister who is responsible. And when we started this evening, Mr. Chairman, there was utterances, again from both sides of the House, the word pass-pass-pass. I have more, - -(Interjection) - that•s right, both sides, and I think that there is, Mr. Chairman, a lack of appreciation by the members of this House of the job that is being done by the civil servants of the Province of Manitoba. How true? Of course it's true, and one of the culprits is of course, Mr .

Chairman, the Honourable Member for Lakeside. I realize, Mr . Speaker, I realize, Mr . Speaker, how easy it is for members in this House and members outside of the House to pass over the involvement of the civil servants in the daily operation of government in Manitoba. What we're dealing with this evening are the Estimates of the Department but, Mr . Chairman -- and I know that it is improper to refer to a debate that has already been concluded • • . A MEMBER: That's right. MR .

PAULLEY: ••• but I cannot help , without violating the general principles and tenets of the operation of this House, how wont the Opposition were when considering a bill that I introduced dealing with amendments to the Civil Service Act, how wont they were to criticize and to condemn. --(I nterjection) -- That's right, and there's no one who attempts to subvert the civil servants in the Province of Manitoba than my honourable friend, the Member for Lake side, and he took the opportunity, as indeed others did, during consideration of that particular debate. That was an opportunity, Mr .

Speaker, for the Leader of the Opposition and other honourable members, to try and dagrade the civil servants of Manitoba. A MEMBER: That's a shame. M.tt. PAULLEY: It is a shame. I realize that in my position as the Minister responsible to this Assembly fo r the civil servants, that I have my difficul ties too; because after all, after all, Mr.

Chairman , we have over 12, 000 civil servants in the Province of Manitoba and naturally there will be occasions when there are differences of opinion between the administra tion, the Minister responsible for to this House for the civil servants and others as well, and I recognize that. But I want to say in my introductory remarks regarding the civil servants of the Province of Manitoba that by and large we are well served by them. Despite, despite the occasions, Mr.

Chairman, when members of this House -- and I think that I am being fair when I say members of this House rather than to pinpoint any particular individual -- that when members of this House are wont to condemn and to criticize the civil servants that we have, in the Province of Manitoba. There are times , there are times when I as the Minister responsible to answer in this House for the Civil Service that I wonder whether or not the 12, 000 or more were chosen individually and personally by myself. How often it is, Mr. Chairman, that

2664 April 22, 1974 SUPPLY - CIVIL SERVICE (1\lli.. PAULLEY Cont•d) , • , • , members of this House want to rant and rave of the deficiencies of the civil servants, I would suggest that the majority of whom were appointed long before I became the Minister responsible to this House, I want to say, Mr. Chairman, that they have done a good job for the people of the Province of Maniwba, My honourable friend the Member for Arthur says it was 8, 000 and it's now 12 or more. He may be perfectly correct, Mr.

Chairman, but at the same time, at the same time I think that we should recognize that because of the greater involvement of government, not only in the Province of Manitoba but other areas as well, it requires more people to become involved, I recall, I recall that when I sat opposite we didn •t have, we didn •t have the inward thrust in Medicare by government, in provision of governmental Medicare systems; we didn't have Autopac; we didn't have many other enterprises that we have at the present time. So I say, Mr.

Chairman, I was thoroughly disgusted with members of the House just before we rose, when there was an indication - can we not slough off the Minister's statement to the House on the introduction of these estimates inside of ten minutes. And I want to say through you, Mr. Chairman, to members of this Assembly, have a little more faith in the civil servants of the Province of Manitoba, Join me, join me MR . ENNS: On a point of privilege, - Mr, Chairman. MR . PAULLEY: There's no point of privilege , MR . ENNS: Yes, there is a point of privilege, MR .

CHAIKMAN: The Honourable Minister for Lakeside on a point of privilege. MR . ENNS: Mr. Speaker, fo r the third time he cast an aspersion, an innuendo as to what the members opposite thought or in what regard they held the Civil Service in. Any suggestion that the Honourable Minister makes with that in mind, I want to make very clear did not reflect the feelings of the Opposition for the Civil Service. It may have indeed some reflection on what we feel about the Minister. MR. CHAI!tMAN: Order please, That is not a point of order. The Minister just made a suggestion, The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR.

PAULLEY: And I'm prepared to accept the admonitions of the Honourable Member fo r Lakeside or any other member in this Assembly, I, unlike he, believe in the democratic process of government, I believe in the rights of free expression, I•m expressing my opinions at the present time, and if this happens that my fo ot comes down on the corns of the right or the left foot of my Honourable Member for Lakeside, let the hurt be where it is, and it should properly be there because at least since this session started, no one has been more critical of the civil servants of the Province of Manitoba than my honourable friend the Member for Lakeside and his colleagues opposite, And I cannot tolerate that, A MEMBER: Poppcock.

Garbage, MR . PAULLEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I agree most heartily for once with the Honour able Member for Lake side, that his approach insof ar as the Civil Service and our employees is concerned, that his approach is a bunch of ruddy garbage. I agree with my honourable fr iend at least in that respect, I think, Mr. Chairman, before I go fur ther on the introduction of the estimates of the department, I should introduce two of the civil servants of the Province of Manitoba that I have with me tonight: Mr. Doug Duncan, who is the full -time Civil Service Commissioner and Mr.

Bob Best who is the Director of Recruitment in the Civil Service; one who was appointed by this government after it took off ice, some time after we took offi ce; the other was appointed to his position by the fo rmer administration of the Province of Manitoba, who hasn•t been dismissed and is still ful filling his position very well. My colleague, the Minister of Finance --(Interjection)-- that's right, that's right, You know, Mr. Chairman MR . CHAI.KMAN: Would the honourable member .•• Order please, Would the Honourable Member fo r Lakeside restrain himself. MR . PAULLEY: You know, Mr.

Chairman, the reason I mentioned that is ••• MR . CHAiltMAN: Order please, MR . PAULLEY: .. , because if •.. M.K. CHAlliMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry , on a point of order ? MR . SHE.KMAN: No, not on a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I wondered if the Minister would accept a question,

April 22, 197 4 2665 SUPPLY - CIVIL SERVICE MJ:t. PAULLEY: After my 30 minutes have been exhausted, and I trust, Mr. Chairman, that you will be deducting the interruptions by the honourable members opposite, or any other quarter in this House during that period of time.

Because I said at the of fset I think we need more than ten minutes, as suggested by the Honourable Member for Morris, on the introduction of these estimates in order to pay a proper tribute to the civil servants of the Province of Manitoba, which would be denied me, I believe, if we fo llowed through the suggestions and interjections of the Honourable the Member for Lakeside .

I have said that I am proud of the jo b that the civil servants in Manitoba are doing on behalf of the citizens of Manitoba, and I used as an example the two gentlemen that I have before me to assist me in these estimates tonight, to of fset the criticisms that come, parti cularly from opposite the House, that we have dismissed their appointees and appointed our own, Mr. Chairman, on the introduction of these estimates, I want again, and I emphasize that Manitoba is well served by its employees. The Member for Arthur indicated that there has been an increased number.

That is perfectly correct and I accept that, but I know the reasons and I am sure my honourable friend from Arthur knows the reason well because of the ever-increasing involvement of the public sector into affairs of state. And it•s not only happening here, but it's happening throughout the length and breadth of democracies all over the world.

There are those that criticize that, And it may be a legitimate criticism, but nonetheless it is an ongoing situation and the people of Manitoba as the result of the expansion in our Civil Service, as the result of the programs and policies of this government, are being better served than they ever were before in the whole 104 years since we became a province, And we serve the province, our civil servants serve the public from our boundaries on the south to the north and from the east and the west, and I regret and I resent and I reject criticisms of the civil servants as a whole. I do want to pay, Mr .

Chairman, at this particular time a particular tribute to the former ful l-time commissioner of the Civil Service, Mr. Merlin Newton, Again an individual who was not appointed by this government but an individual who served Manitoba well and recently resigned from offi ce as a result of this government's lowering of the compulsory age or the end age of retirement at 65. Merlin Newton served Manitoba and Manitobans well, and I could not help on this first occasion since his retirement to pay a tribute to him, as indeed I pay a tribute to the other Civil Service Commissioner, Mr.

Jim McFee who forme rly was the Auditor of the Province of Manitoba. I'm proud to have had the opportunity to work with these honourable gentlemen, Another individual, Mr. Chairman, that I would like to pay tribute to - unfortunately he will not be able to either hear or read what I say of him, I refe r to the fo rmer secretary of the Civil Service Supernnuation Fund, Robert Watson - Bobby Watson as he was known by so many.

He took an early retirement and unfortun ately passed away before he had really an opportunity to have a retirement and to achieve some of the benefits - or to enjoy some of the benefits that he may have had in early retirement. Bobby Watson did a good job for the people of Manitoba, and in particular for those on the Superannuation Fund and boards of the servants of Manitoba. I cannot help, Mr.

Chairman, to refer to another undertaking that was made recently, and that is the matter of the Task Force on Equal Employment Opportunities in the Civil Service of Manitoba, Way back in September, as a matter of fact on September 24th, as the Minister responsible I thought that it was about time we took a look at equal employment opportunities within the Civil Service of Manitoba. There had been criticisms in many quarters across Canada of the lack of equal opportunities in the Civil Service between men and women.

Theref ore I suggested at that particular time that we should have a Task Force to look into the whole ambit of equal opportunities of employment in the Civil Service. I wasn't satisf ied, Mr. Chairman, I just looked at the matter in respect of equal opportunities between men and women. I thought that if we were going to do a job at all we should look further, that we should look insofar as the opportunities of the handicapped, the opportunities of the older aged person.

I thought we should take a look into the opportunities for equal employment by all segments of the community, and as a result of the establishment of that Task Force a report was made to me in around the 22nd of January of this year and ref erences have been made to my colleagues in Cabinet for the consideration and the impact of that study. I have

2666 April 22, 1974 SUPPLY - CIVIL SERVICE (MR. PAULLEY Cont1d) , , , , , had correspondence from all parts of Canada and indeed the United States commending this government because of their attitude in looking at a problem that has long existed within the Civil Service of Manitoba, and as a result of that Task Force report there have been 13 specific recommendations made respecting the same, and members in the Assembly are well aware of the input of those recommendations.

Mr, Chairman, I'm glad tonight to be able to announce to this committee a further thrust by this government in the field of equality of --(Interjection)-- Yes, Mr. Chairman, my honourable friend says we're going to start hiring Conservatives.

I want to say to my honour able friend, the Member for Lakeside, that I as Minister responsible for the civil servants, that I as Minister of the Department of Labour recognize ability, even though it happens to be that I recognize Conservatives, I recognize some Conservatives outside of this House having some ability, And I indicate to the House that one of the Conservatives, and I trust a former Conservative, that I have a considerable involvement with is one by the name of Professor Wally Fox-Decent who ran in the constituency against a former colleage of mine by the name of Lem Harris in the constituency of Logan, I am pleased to use his expertise as Chairman of many of our Fair Wage Boards, So I recognize, despite the narrow-minded approach of the Member for Lakeside, I recognize talent and ability, I want to say, and I want to repeat, Mr.

Chairman, that there is far more, there is far more ability in the Conservative ranks outside of this House than there is in it, But Mr, Chairman, Mr, Chairman I do want to make an announcement of something that we have accepted as a basis --(Interjection)-- Yes, I would say to my honourable friend the Member for Fort Garry, If you want my resignation, and if it's accepted, to this House, you can damn well have it, Mr. Chairman, because I'm sick and tired --(Interjection)- You do? Then you'll get it, I•ll forward it to my Premier immediately, because, Mr.

Chairman, I'm prepared to accept it, that after many years and I think faithful contribution to the well-being of the citizens of Manitoba, when you get that ruddy rabble as you got that side, I sometime s wonder, I sometimes wonder, Mr. Chairman, whether it's worthwhile, So I am prepared, I am prepared to submit my resignation, and only, Mr. Chairman, because of the ineffective, asinine approach of the Conservative Party in the Province of Manitoba who have gone to the lowest ebb of any political party that•s ever sat on that side of the House, (Applause) As a matter of fact --(Interjection)-- no, no, Mr.

Chairman, the Honourable Member for Fort Garry says to me, my honourable friend from Fort Garry says that my wife is not in the gallery. He is so correct, she is not in the gallery tonight, But she joins me, and she asks of me, "Russ, is it worthwhile when you have to be confronted with such individuals as the Member for Fort Garry?" And I'm fast approaching the time when I'm going to listen to her and get the hell out of the admonition by the asinine contributions of the Member for Fort Garry.

Mr, Chairman, I do want to make an announcement that I'm sure will not be accepted by the members of the Conservative Party, but despite them I am going to make it, And the degree of my announcement this evening, Mr. Chairman, is as follows: Equal benefits for women improve coverage options under our insurance plan.

I am happy to announce, despite my inefficiencies and deficiencies, that there will be improved coverage options in the Civil Service Employees' Group Life Insurance Plan, and extension of the plan's benefits on an equal basis to f�male employees for the first time in the history of Manitoba, (Applause) I want to announce to the House and through the House, Mr.

Chairman, to our civil servants and to the citizens of Manitoba that we have agreed upon, following discussions between the government, employees 1 representatives that there will be increased life insurance coverage, additional benefits for employees who take early retirement, changes in dependant's sections of the plan, and in addition an accidental death and disablement benefit, The plan currently covers about 20, 000 employees in the Civil Service, and such government boards and agencies as Manitoba Hydro, Manitoba Telephone System, the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation, The effective date of the new equal coverage is July 1st of this year.

Under the present existing plan single women are limited to $2, 000 in death benefits, while single men are permitted coverage up to the amount of their salary. Married persons with no dependants can obtain coverage to up to one and a half times their salaries, and those with dependants twice their salary. That•s the situation at the present time.

April 22, 1974 2667 SUPPLY - CIVIL SERVICE (MR. PAULLEY Cont1d) All benefits, Mr. Chairman, and provisions under the new plan will now be made equally available to male and female employees regardless of their marital status. In addition the amount of insurance is increased to one, two or three times the employee's aalary at the employee 1s option, up to a maximum coverage of $50, 000. The employee pays for two-thirds of the premium and the Provincial Government one-third as before.

The new accidental death and disablement feature, which will be fully covered by government contribution, will provide benefit similar to double indemnity in the event of accidental death or total disablement, An another additional benefit, Mr. Chairman, employees who take early retirement will be permitted to continue 50 percent of their insurance coverage to age 65, and employees who retire at 65 will be able to continue 25 percent of their original coverage to age 70. Changes have been made . . . MR . CHAIRMAN: Order please. Does the Minisrer have leave to complete his statement? MEMBERS: No, no, MR .

PAULLEY: How typical. Thanks, MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. BILTON: Mr. Chairman, Mr. Chairman • • . MR , CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Swan River has the floor. MR . BILTON: Mr. Chairman, in all deference, in all deference --(Interjection)-- Would you keep quiet for just about five minutes, Mr. Chairman --(Interjection)-- No, I•ve got it now. MR . SPIVAK: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Leader of the Conservative Party on a point of order. MR , SPIV AK: Mr.

Chairman, the record will not show the actual -- or under normal circumstances would not indicate the by-play that1s taking place here, But surely, Mr. Chairman, you were present here, The Honourable Minister could have given us the pronounce ments very easily in the half hour that was allowed to him, The fact of the matter is that he repeated himself for about five or ten minutes and in the course of • • . MR . CHAIRMAN: Order please. MR . SPIV AK: • • • and, Mr. Speaker, let the record show . . . MR . CHAIRMAN: Order please. Tha:t is not a point of order. MR .

SPIVAK: Well let the record not suggest in any way that this side has in any way prevented the government from presenting its policy, MR , CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Swan River, The Honourable Minister of Labour on a point of order. MR. PAULLEY: I note the clock now says precisely 8: 30, I commenced my 30 minute contribution - call it that if you will: there were several interruptions by the honourable members opposite, I asked you, Mr. Chairman, to take those into account, which has not been done and I could have completed my statement, 1VIR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Swan River has the floor.

MR . BILTON: Mr. Chairman, I personally regret, and l'm sure my colleagues regret the incident that just has occured a moment ago. I agree with my Leader that the Honourable Minister of Labour has talked to us for 30 minutes and has really told us nothing. We're dealing with a budget here of $5,383,300 and he has not attempted in any way to explain what is going to happen to this money, or given us any insight of any intentions of the department. He took the occasion to lambaste us on this side of the House, or lecture us I should say on this side of the House as to our lack of appreciation of the Civil Service.

He knows that that is a bunch of hog wash and is very very much below the position which he holds to refer to this party, or those members on this side of the House, in such a manner. I have said before that it's very unfor tunate that this House gets down into the gutter now and then and 11m sure the Honourable Minister does his part to take us down that far, and if he wants to get down there in the gutter we 1re quite prepared to get down there. Again, too, Mr.

Chairman, on that point I regret very much as a member of this House at the Minister's outburst a few moments ago and I'm sure my colleagues who sort of cheered the idea that he might resign, really didn't mean it, I believe the Minister of Labour with his service to the Province of Manitoba, as I've said before in this House and I'm quite prepared to say it again, is a service that's been well deserved and well received by the people of Manitoba, but his big problem is that he's power drunk; he can't stand the pressure of the heavy office he1s

2668 April 22, 1974 SUPPLY - CIVIL SERVICE (MR. BILTON Cont•d) • got or he wouldn't make the outbursts that he makes. And I for one, and I'm sure many of my colleagues would join me in regretting the incident that occurred a few moments ago.

I knew he was heartfelt when he made that outburst, and I think he meant what he said, but it wasn•t the wishes of the members on this side of the House but rather he provoked them to it, Mr, Chairman, I know that the debate with regard to Bill 7 has been concludedfor the moment but at the same time I disassociate myself with everything the Minister's had to say insofar as our party is concerned, I led off the debate on that bill and I was sincere in every thing I had to say with regard to 44(1). MR . CHAIHMAN: Order please.

As the Honourable Minister of Labour indicated that it is before the committee and until such time I believe the rules are that there •s no further debate on that particular bill. MR . BILTON: I thank you, Mr. Chairman, but I notice you allowed the Minister to speak four minutes on the subject, and surely ycu will extend the same privilege to me. --(Interjection)-- Well I don't intend to mention Bill 7 again but rather comment on what the Minister had to say. It would go through my mind, Mr.

Chairman, that for an hour and a half of debates in this House we've listened to the Minister rant and rave on this particular bill. How can he stand up and talk to us the way he did tonight in view of what is right here. The notorious Bill 7. Who put that out? MR . CHAIRMAN: 0 rder please. I believe the matter is before committee and it is a rule of this House that matters before committee. are not debatable. MR . BILTON: Very well, Mr. Chairman. I can see you're separating the fish from the fowl, ar.d the "fowl" is on that side, the fish is right here. Mr.

Chairman, it's rather difficult to put to the Minister the questions that I would like to put to him because he didn1t give us any indication as to what the estimates before us are all about, So I would simply go this far, and simply ask him, are members of the Health Commission civil servants? And who are the members of the Civil Service Commission? And would the Minister tell us also how the Selection Board is set up, and would he go along without a lot of balderdash and tell us how they can guarantee appointments free from political patronage? These are questions I would like to ask him.

I would also like to remind him that I refute his statement entirely when he said tonight that the 8, 000 civil servants that were on the payroll prior to this government coming to office, which has been augmented by another 4, 000, are far better than those that have gone before in the last hundred years because that •s utter nonsense, --(Interjection)-- You did and coming from a man such as yourself you should know better.

I've been a civil servant for 20 years, 22 years, and I will defend their right to the death to see to it that they don•t get involved in politics the way the Honourable Minister wants them to by Bill 44 or Bill 7. He has told us on occasion that he1s going to bring in amendments but he hasn't indicated what those amendments are all about, MR . CHAIRMAN: Order please. As I indicated to the Honourable Member for Swan River that the Bill No. 7 is before committee and until such time there is no further debate in this House. MR . BILTON: Thank you, Mr.

Chairman, and you're running true to form; I appreciate that very much. I'm not going to reiterate that you gave the Minister fair weather and run all over the place on the subl3ct, but not on this side of the House, Well we1re getting used to it. We•ll find a way, we 1ll find a way to overcome. On behalf of our party I appreciate the statement that the Minister made tonight insofar as the equal rights are concerned throughout the Civil Service. I think this is a step in the right direction, and he 1ll get our fullest support in every direction. But again I say, Mr.

Chairman, with those few remarks I would hope that the Minister will be crisp and to the point with some of the questions that I have asked, and certainly questions that may be asked by my colleagues. And insofar as· the Minister of Commmer and Corporate Affairs is concerned it1s about time he grew up and kept his mouth shut once in awhile. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR . LLOYD AXWORTHY (Fort Rouge): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Before the Minister exercises his prerogative of answering our questions, I thought we might have an opportunity to pose a few to him so that he can make full use of his 20 minutes and rather than having to

April 22, 1974 2669 SUPPLY - CIVIL SERVICE (MR. AXWORTHY Cont•d) .••.. fill in the spaces he will have a full rich diet to work on and regurgitate back. We•re interested, very interested in this particular portion of the Minister's responsibilities because we feel that there are many areas of particular social concern that the Minister over the past few years has not quite carried up to par.

While he has been so deeply involved in the matters of labour I think that he has allowed in many respects the progress and development of the own employment standards of the Provincial Government to become a little bit shattered and a little bit tattered along the way.

The first matter of concern that I 1d like to express to the Minister, and welcome his reply on, has to do with the recent salary settlement of the Manitoba Civil Service that - we fully understand that it was a negotiated settlement, We're fully aware that it went through the normal requirements of bargaining but at the same time it was a poor settlement.

And certainly in light of recent economic developments where we have become conscious of the increasing acceleration in inflationary trends in the country, we would like to know whether the Minister is prepared to take some remedial action to at least enable provincial civil servants to have a salary settlement that would at the very minimum be equal to the inflationary trend of 10 percent that they experienced over the last year.

If I recall the figures in this first year, settlement was something around eight or nine percent, which according to our assessment is even less than what inflation will bring about, so in effect they are losing money this year.

We would certainly be both encouraging, as well as very concerned, that the Minister exercise his prerogatives of the Crown to see if some redress can be brought about in very short order and we are able to provide or ensure that the Provincial Civil Servants of Manitoba are not unfairly treated in respect to their counterparts in other government establishments, and that we are not in danger of losing some of our more talented and skilled members because they can acquire a better settlement elsewhere.

Certainly the Minister must have been aware over the past two or three months that members on this side of the House have been extremely concerned about the quality and calibre of our Provincial Civil Service, concerned about it from the point of political intrusion but also concerned, certa inly about if rom the point of maintaining the quality and calibre of skills.

And to do that we think that we have to at least indicate that we're prepared to take extraordinary action when it's required in order to provide for some minimum settlement to add up to the losses that our provincial services will have to suffer if the present settlement is allowed to retain itself and to become a status quo, and again as I understand it that settlement is some thing that will exercise itself over close to a two-year period, and as that period goes on the Civil Service will fall even further behind than they are now.

And so at this time in consideration of the Estimates we would like the Minister to issue some form of statement, and we hope that that statement would provide some hope and some indication that he is prepared to provide for some remedial financial assistance to provincial civil servants so that they will not have to suffer in effect a loss of income, a net loss of in come, because of the problems of inflation.

And I will of course, remind the Minister that I don't expect to hear from him some wholesale attack upon the inflation itself, I think we have debated that in this House to many extents, and if he wanted to discuss the relative fiscal policies of both Federal and Provincial Governments in relation to their attack upon inflation that would certainly be a worthwhile topic of debate.

But we would ask him to confine himself particularly to the question, as the Federal Government has done in some areas where they have given indexing or additional benefits to those on fixed incomes,on pensions, whether he is also prepared to consider such a move in the area of his jurisdiction which is the Civil Service employ.

Now on the statement that the Minister issued tonight, frankly when he said that he was about to make a surprising announcement in relation to the Task Force Report on Equal Opportunities, I sat back in my chair and braced myself for what I hoped would be a very major step forward, and as I gathered from the Minister's statements he in fact has taken only a very partial step in relation to the findings of his own Task Force.

And let me point out first that we find ourselves in a little bit of a handicap on this side of the House because I don't think the Minister was quite accurate in saying that they have provided us with full information and recourse, be.cause as I understand it there was a special Task Force Report Commission dealing particularly with the problems of women, and that Task Force itself has not been

2670 April 22� 1974 SUPPLY - CIVIL SERVICE (MR.

AXWORTHY Cont•d) • , ••. released, And I think that it is unfair to members on this side of the House to ask us to properly comment upon any initiatives in this area without having first provided a public release of that Task Force Report specifically related to women, and I would certainly be glad to be corrected if no such report exists, But if it is in existence, and if it is locked away in the catacombs of the ministerial office.s, then I would think it would be some honourable responsibility of the Minister if he would produce that report so that we can begin measuring the progress of the government against the standard of that Task Force as they've set, Because I would like to point out to the Mimster that at least as my reading goes as of about a week ago when I looked at the score card that was kept by the Status of Women groups in the Province of Manitoba, looking at the number of recommendations made on the Status of Women's Royal Commission Report about two years ago, they indicated that at least in the Province of Manitoba less than 10 percent of the recommendations in fact had been fulfilled, and they go through a large large number of check boxes, and I'm sorry I don•t have it with me tonight, I'd be glad to obtain a copy for the Minister, They have several pages in fine line detailing as to which provinces and the Federal Government, to what degree they have responded to recommendations made by that Royal Commission Report, And it certainly seemed to me, Mr.

Chairman, that on initial reading of that the per formance of this government was not particularly notable, Now I wouldn't say that it is any less so than other provincial governments but as we have provided some admonishment in the past, we don't expect this government to judge itself by necessarily external standards, We•d like it to judge it by Qur own standards in Manitoba, which should be of the highest standard, and therefore I think simply to accept some form of mediocrity, of being part of the pack, is not really good enough and we •re not, certainly on this side of the House, prepared to accept that standard as a measurement, In this respect, Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to point out that there are a number of recommendations that were in fact made by the Task Force on Equal Opportunties in the Civil Service in Manitoba which the Minister hadn•t really mentioned, and certainly one of the most important, and if I had a moment I would find the page that said, that one of the major steps that must be undertaken in order to correct the present unequal opportunity position of the Provincial Government is to eliminate the fragmentation of authority for making Civil Service appointments; that the present existence of powers of making certain appointments through Management Committee and certain appointments through the Civil Service Commission, is very damaging, and they say it's not just damaging in the field of women's rights, it's also damaging in the point that it does lead to certain abuse, or can lead to potential abuse on the part of the political people in government, And they said that is one of the major and first steps that has to be carried up - and it •s in that report - i.1 order to correct the problem of unequal opportunities.

So that is again a very important question that we would like to pose to the Minister, Is he now prepared to reorganize the system of Civil Service classification in the Province of Manitoba: (

l) to eliminate the issue that has been bedeviling this House for the past two months, and that is, the· abuse that can be sort of brought upon civil servants through political inter vention or involvement in the making of employment which if it is not happening then there certainly is a lot of appearance to S'lggest that it could be happening, and that certainly my colleague from Portage la Prairie provided to the Minister evidence about a month and a half ago - and the record is in Hansard - of how incidences at the Portage Hqspital indicated how that abuse was in fact been activated, that we feel it is very important that we take a major step towards correcting the potential abuse that exists because of the segregation in responsibility: the fact that appointments can be made in two places; the fact the Ministers can still go down and choose whom they want to choose from that list, certainly opens up a very major issue and question in our minds, I don't think that anyone, including that large number of civil servants, are going to be happy until they can be satisfied that the Manitoba Civil Service Commission is both totally responsible for all appointments made to the Civil Service and that Civil Service Commission is free of any kind of political influence, Until that is taken, until all the symptoms and signs of evidences are cleared that it is independent and that it has sole responsibility, then I would suggest to the Minister that he is going to have continuing trouble in trying to maintain the esteem and responsibility of the Civil Service.

So I would like to raise that as a major issue with him and then go on to say that there

April 22, 1974 2671 SUPPLY - CIVIL SERVICE (MR. AXWORTHY Cont•d) •••.• are again a number of other suggestions in this Task Force Report, which again that the Minister hadn't mentioned as being part of his step towards, again, equal opportunities. Certainly one of the most important ones, and one that is being asked by all the women's groups in the province, is the establishment of an advisory council in the province to advise the Minister on matters relating to the equal opportunity problems of women, because as they feel now there are a number of groups each with separate interests.

What they really want at this stage is to provide a council, responsible to the Legislature of Manitoba not responsible to the Minister, that it would then be able to say to itself, is the government doing enough? Is it doing its job? And in respect they point out a very practical alternative.

They say, what the government must do now is to set a series of action guidelines so that each department and commission and agency of the Provincial Government will take the leadership in providing equal employment opportunities for women by saying that there are certain goals, that each department will be expected to achieve; that obviously the report of this Task Force, and other reports, have shown that women are almost virtually eliminated from managerial jobs in the Civil Service - I think something like four percent of what can be considered managerial jobs are occupied by women.

Well I think all of us would agree tbat•s simply not good enough, and so what the women's groups are asking for is a series of action guidelines. And they say, however, it's not good enough to simply have action guidelines where each department knows it's going to have to measure up to certain responsibilities, you need a certain prodding and pushing and certain - at least assigned responsible groups to say to the Minister and the Legislature, you baven•t gone far enough; you're not doing your jobs; you haven•t lived up to those guidelines.

So again I would suggest very strongly to the Minister that first be undertake, through whatever directives he is able to provide, that the various agencies and departments of the government implement that action program where there is guidelines set for the respective departments, because out of that kind of leadership will come a follow-through, or a carryover, into the private sector so that in fact women will no longer have to sort of feel that they are simply actually doing the menial jobs, the clerical jobs, but don't have access to the board room or to the manager's office.

It is the responsibility of the Provincial Government to undertake that kind of leadership, and if it undertakes that kind of leadership then it is certainly absolutely required that an advisory council be established in the province composed both of men and women, I expect, who would then be able to suggest to the Legislature year to year whether the Manitoba Hydro, or the Department of Labour, or the Human Rights Commission, has lived up to its responsibilities. Has it satisfied those guidelines? Is it ht.king all action at all speed at its disposal?

Because without that kind of information this Legislature is blind in terms of assessing the actual progress being made. All we have to rely upon in effect is the statements of the Minister, As we point out sometimes, Ministers' statements have a way of being vague, lengthy and vague in fact, and so we would suggest that there has to be certainly a council set up right away to provide us with the ability to make proper judgments concerning the activity of the Civil Service.

Now this goes on to a further point which has been of some real concern to me since the experience that I had at one time working in the Federal Government and to my horror finding out that it exists in the Province of Manitoba, where I•m told that everything is so much better than everywhere else, and that is the practice of rug-ranking. It's a very archean practice but what it basically means is that someone who is working in a clerical capacity has his or her classification, and it is mainly a her, assigned on the basis of the status of the person who she's working for.

So that is; someone is a secretary and is assigned to work in a sense with the Director of Research of the Department of Industry and Commerce, the tendency is for the classification of that person to be assigned in relation to whom she's · working for. And that therefore that is something which again inhibits the upward mobility or ability of women in particular, because they occupy most of the clerical and lower echelon jobs in the Civil Service, to be handicapped or hindered in their ability to move forward.

They also feel that there is a serious handicap in the ability to get better training in order to enable women to improve their position. Now that's something that I don't feel qualified to comment on. I would only simply repeat, it is part of this Task Force report; it is part of the assess ment made by the people that the Minister himself assigned and established.

2672 April 22, 1974 SUPPLY - CIVIL SERVICE (MR. AXWORTHY Cont•

d) And again I would think that that would be a step that would be relatively easy to implement and we would certainly again both encourage as well as hope that the Minister would be able to provide this evening, or certainly in his next statement in this House, a positive indication that those steps have been taken, and that things like the rug-ranking practice has been eliminated, that a training program has been implemented, that an advisory council will be set up, that action guidelines will be implemented for each of the departments· where there is a very specific set of objectives and purposes outlined so that all of us will know and can measure the progress that is being made.

These are steps which I think would go a long way to providing within the ambit of the Provincial Government the kind of leadership that can be demonstrable to people in the private sector in effect saying, that is how it can be done. And I think that this would be if the Minister is prepared to answer all those points this evening in a hundred percent positive way, then on this side of the group we would say you have certainly done well enough for this year and that that•s not bad as a start. So if the Minister is prepared to say that we would certainly be in agreement with the steps.

Before I just leave however, Mr. Chairman, there is one other area which the Minister himself mentioned and which I think it is worth just spending one further moment on, and that deals with the opportunities provided again by people who are handicapped and disadvantaged. But again this is an area where we as a society generally have been backward and laggard in not fulfilling our responsibilities, and it extends all the way to the design of public buildings - l1m not sure how, for example, how accessible this Legislative Chamber is to someone in a wheel chair.

I doubt whether it's really possible to make it easy and convenient for someone who•s --(Interjection).,.- I know that we have people working, but I'm also concerned about those who might want to come in in the evenings and see it, But there are many other public buildings, many of which have public moneys in them, which do not offer those kind of antes and services.

And particularly important again is in the area of employment where again the public service can be used as a leader in this field to demonstrate the kind of activities that can be undertaken on behalf of those who are physically disadvantaged, and the Minister has indicated that he is concerned, And again we simply raise the question about how those concerns will be expressed, and again whether the kind of measurement that I described before that should be applied to the progress undertaken in the field of women, could also be applied in other areas as well, particularly in the area of physically handicapped. --(Interjection)-- Now, my friend from Assiniboia points out that one of the public buildings is the Planetarium in the Cultural Complex on Main Street where it is very difficult for people who are in a wheel chair or who have physical handicaps, to gain access.

A prime example, Mr. Chairman, is a case which was brought to my attention by a constituent just a short while back, pointing out the comparison in the street network of the City of Winnipeg compared to that of Edmonton, where there are no curb cuts provided, for example, on downtown areas --(Interjection)-- and the same thing is true in Minneapolis.

Now, I realize it's not in the jurisdiction of the Minister, but I would trust to his own sense of enlightenment that he would prevail upon his Cabinet colleagues and upon others with whom he comes in contact, that when they're discussing questions of giving money to the City of Winnipeg for Public Works and for building bridges and streets that when they come to deciding what conditions could be attached to those, that would certainly make a very legitimate condition I think to overcome that particular distinction. --(lnterjection)-- So, Mr.

Chairman, those are the first questions that we would like to pose to the Minister of Labour or the Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission, and we can only trust that his expressed concerns will be matched by very definite and specific action, And I think that we have only outlined a series of the actions that are possible to him, and we await with some interest his answers. (Applause) MR. SPEAKEH.: Order, please. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SIIEH.l\1AN: Mr. Chairman, I notice that the clock is rapidly running out.

I'll hardly get started but I would like to say to the Minister that we certainly commend the efforts and the steps he •s taking in the area of equal rights in the Civil Service, equal rights in the labour force generally for women, --(Interjection)-- The Minister has suggested to me that we still want his resignation. Well, I can•t deny, Sir, that perhaps some of us on this side in a

April 22, 1974 2673 SUPPLY - CIVIL SERVICE (MR. SHERMAN Cont1d) , ••. , spirit of legislative exhuberance and enthusiasm feel from time to time that the labour affairs of this province might be improved by that step, but we'r·OJ certainly not going to go on a witch hunt or a scalp hunt and demand that the Minister exceed to that request tonight, We think that the voters of Manitoba will probably take care of that situation the next time we go to the polls. --(Interjection)-- I yield to you and the clock, Mr, Chairman, MR .

CHAIRMAN: Order please, The Honourable Member for Fort Garry will have 29 minutes next time the Committee sits, Committee rise. Call in the Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Committee has considered certain resolutions and has directed me to report same, and asks leave to sit again, IN SESSION MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Radisson, MR. SHAFRANSKY: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Rupertsland, that report of the Committee be received, MOTION presented and carried. PRIVATE MEMBERS' HOUR- RESOLUTION NO. 25 MR.

SPEAKER: The first item on the Private Members 1 Hour is private members 1 resolution, The first Resolution is Resolution 25, The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge, MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, I1d like to move, seconded by the Member from St. Boniface, that

WHEREAS there are growing numbers of children in the Province who require child care services in the way of day care programs, luncheon and after school and home care services; and

WHEREAS the present system of support for child care services in the Province is ad hoc in nature; and

WHEREAS existing child care services using public funds are presently facing termination of programs and there is urgent need to establish a support program; and

WHEREAS there is uneven distribution of child care services throughout the province; and

WHEREAS there is serious inadequacy in information and research to support services in the field of child care; and

WHEREAS any system of child care should be based upon maximum responsibility of parents and local residents for management of child care programs; BE IT THEREFORE RESOLVED that the Government of Manitoba consider the advisability of: 1. Introducing a program of assistance to non-profit community based child care services including day care, lunch and after school programs and home care services which would offer the following: (

a) initial start-up grant to cover equipment and facility costs. (

b) an annual grant covering costs of staff based oli a formula of staff to child ratios of an amount to be determined in consultat ion between the government and representa tives of child care service agencies. 2. Establishing a Child Care Institute, preferrably under the auspices of existing Child Care Agencies to co-ordinate information, resource sharing, and investigation and research in the special needs of children. 3. Setting forth guidelines related to the operation of all child Care Services that set forward standards and staffing program and management; 4.

Facilitating the development of Child Care Programs that are comm unity-based and user-controlled, recognizing the principle of responsibility by parents for child related .ser vices. 5, Instructing the Department of Education to develop plans and guidelines to negotiate with local school boards for the use of school facilities for Child Care Services. MOTION presented. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like first to indicate to the members of the House that I rise on this Resolution in the recogniation that in the Budget Speech the Minister

2674 April 22, 19 74 RESOLUTION 25 (MR. AXWORTHY Cont1d ) ••••• of Finance in dica ted that the Provi ncial Gove rnment had in dicated its willingness, and in fact its commitment to sign a joint cost agreement with the Federal Gover nmen t to prov ide for a cost-share program applied to the users of Day Care Servi ces. The purpose of this reso lution to clarify to the members, is to complement that particula r program, That the program as announced at least by the Mi ni ster of Finance in his Budget Speech was a program based upon giv in g a certa in financia l as sistance to the users of Day Care Services.

This resolution is to supplement that particula r program to provide what we would believe to be a mo re comprehensiv e approach to the program and to build upon that in itial foundation that has been laid, So I don't want it to be misunderst ood that this is in any way, is in o;Jpos ition to the commitment by the Mi ni ster of Health or the Mi nister of Finance to go into the share-co st program with the Federal Gover nment, It is more in the way of an addi tion to round ou t, to fill in, and to add a substantial netwo r k of Child Care Services in the prov inces, so that this ve ry impo rtant community servi ce for the first time can be established and built upon a very rigo rous and substanti al foundation rather than one that tends to be some what sparse and somewhat ad hoc in nature.

Let me begin, Mr. Speaker, by first poi nting ou t the sco pe of the pro blem that is faced by many people in the provi nce because of the limited facilities and servi ces that are presently obtaina ble in Child Care Serv ices. It was indica ted in a Canadi an Day Care Survey which was undertaken in 19 72 that, and I quote, "t hat there were 59 , 000 one -parent mo thers in the Canadian labour force; and for the same year" -- this is in 1971 - "i t is esti mated there were 634, 000 working mothers with 182,000 of these mothers having children under the age of six.

" I'd also like to go on and refer to the Barber Commission Report that was published by the prov incia l government in December of 1972, which poin ted ou t that in the Provi nce of Man itoba there was an esti mated 12, 000 children under the age of 13 supported by Mo ther 1s Allowances, and that existi ng day care facilities at that time could ac commodate only about 10 percent of those children.

Now what those figures simply mean is, that there are in creasingly large numbers of children in the Prov ince of Manit oba who for reasons of the family situ ati on are no t able to get their proper and decent care in the home. In many cases it is simply a basic economic func tion that the mo ther who is the only parent in the family for reasons of divoree or separa tion or death or abandonment, whatever the reason, is forced to work, and in fact wants to work to provide for a proper sort of economic upbringin g of the child.

Well if that's the case then it is certai nly essential that children under the age of five be giv en proper treatment, and that ki nd of treatment requires instituti onal Day Care Serv ices; it requires a form of lunch and after school program, so the children who are of schoo l age can be as sured of getting a hot meal at lunch and havi ng a place to go before their mo ther or father returns home from work. And in the case of younger in fants it also means having a family home day care pro gram where young in fants below the age of two are ac tually in a home setting.

Now each of these programs in one way or the other have been partially operated by different agencies. The Mi ni ster ve ry kindly tabled for me about three weeks ago a list of the exist ing Child Care facilities, of which there are about 30 operating in the provi nce, but what became ve ry apparent is that first the location was very random, and in some cases parts of the City of Winnipeg had no Child Care Servi ces at all, and certainly there are large areas in rura l Man ito b a in which .there are no Chi ld Care Serv ices.

I think at last ac counting the City of Thompson, Brandon and Portage, I think, were the only rural centres that had any kind of Child Ca re Serv ices. And in the Ci ty of Winnipeg areas like the west end of the city with the exception of one operation I kno w of , do not have proper serv ices. That folct was brought home to me in such a dramatic fashion during the last election campai gn when I was out bus-slopping one morni ng abou t seven o' clock, which was unusua l for me, and I met a young woman, age abou t 24 , who had her child with her, and I asked her where she was going.

Well, she was getti ng on a bus to travel all the way over to Portage Av enue, a distance of about seven mi les, to put her child int o a private nurs ery so she could come back downto'm to go to work; she had to go back to that cent re at the end of the evening and bring her child back. So in effect she was away from the home from abo ut seven in the mornin g ti ll seven at night, and of that time clos e to 2 1/2 to 3 hours were spent simply in transportati on so that her child co uld be giv en proper nursery care, whfch in dica ted very clearly that -- and

April 22, 1974 2675 RESOLUTION 25 (MR. AXWOR THY Cont 'd) • • • • . that case by the way was not iso lated, But as I had the oppo rtunity in my own ridi ng, and I•m sure other membe rs in the city could repeat the case , I found ti me and ti me again sit uations of mothers in ex actly the identical situati on, having to tr avel long distances. In fact I met another woman who told me at one point - I knocked on her door and she said she had just move d to Wardlaw Avenue. I said, "Well, what was your reason for movi ng?

She said, 111 had to move here because the Fort Rouge Co -Op Day Nurse ry is just down the street, " And as I began to talk to her, I found out this woman in fact decides where she lives in the city according to which Day Care Centre or Nurse ry Centre she co uld get her child into . So, in effect has to kind of search around from beginning in the fall to find a place to take her child; main ly because that woman doesn't want to go on welfare; she wants to work; she had a good supporting job but she also had care and concer n for her children.

She didn•t fe el that she could -- she had very bad experience s with baby sitters and she simply wanted to be assure d tha t that child would have good and decent ca re, No w I'm sure that that case co uld be magnifi ed , and certai nly a number of people who I have spoken to in the Child Care fie ld have said that the demand is rising; that it 's si mply a funct ion again that more and mo r e women are comi ng into the work force , and as a result there is more and more children in need, I think also, Mr.

Speaker, you can go one further step, that it is not simp ly the economic factor or demogr aphic fact of more women who are actin g as a so le parent who needs applied care . One of the im portant thing s that a Child Care Pro gram can prov ide is again for the handicapped or disadva ntaged child who needs specia l treatment or special needs. Many children of society are not born with all their faculties and as a result they need special care , particularly when they'r e young. And again in many case s we don•t prov ide a full-scale of pro grams for those kind of children.

In many case s I refer you to the Celtic Report on Ec onomic Learning Disabilitie s. They found out that many of the seriou s emoti onal and learning problems that children in elementary and juni or high schoo ls face could have been corre cted in their ea rly years.

I think as child psychologists tell us, many children acquire their basic tr ait s and personalities between the ages of one and five , or one and four, and therefore it •s doubly im portant that children who have particular kinds of disabilit ie s, whether it •s emoti onal or learnin g or physical, or whateve r , have the opportunit y to get that proper care in good facilit ie s where they can get spec ial treatment and tr aining and education by people who are tr aine d. So I think on that basis, for those two very good reasons, there is a se rio us requirement for services.

Now the question is, how do you go about prov idin g those servi ces? I think that is the thrust of this resolution. To begin with we don't feel that the cost-sharing program as we have come to analyze it will prov ide enough substance or support to ens ure that we have adequate child care facilitie s in the provi nce .

I receive d a copy of the guideline s that the Federal Gove rnment has issue d and related to the financial formula that will be applied, and aceo rding to that I ean esti mate , and the Minis ter could correct me , that the maximum amount that will go on a per diem rate to a child is between four and five dollars, and that the staff ratio s that they'r e asking for is a basis of one child to -- of one staff to ei ght children . Well, I did some diggin g; I sort of got the report on the nat ional study of day care by the Canadian Co uncil and Social Development .

There's the proc ee ding in the Canadian Convent s of Day Care ; there is the Day Care Studie s done by the Canadian Co uncil and Social Development , all of which say that if you 're trying to run a pro gram on that kind of money, forget it , it won 1t work, it 's simply not enough. Now, I co uld point out that there are ope rating in the cit y some of the best day care se rvi ces.

In fact I don't think they'd mi nd my me nti oning the very excellent servi ce that's eondu cte d by -- it runs out of Knox Church, which lakes close to 80 children in the downtown part of the cit y, which presently sort of has to charge a per diem rate of G. 50; and that isn't extr avagant, Mr. Speaker, because the staff salaries and that, I think, start at $400 .00 a month, which I think in this day and age isn't known as a ti g salary, and the maximu m they made, the mo st qualified people with advanee d degrees working nea rly 12 and 13 hours a day, is $G 00. 00 a mont h.

Which again I don'! tl:t�J; anyone in this Ho use would conside r to be a ma1=nificent salary. And yet they on a per diem rate are force d to charge a mi nimum of $6. 50 ju st to pay for their services. An d that same case can be repeated ti me and ti me again.

2676 April 22, 1974 RESOLUTION 25 (MR. AXWORTHY Cont'

d) In fact I had the privilege of attending a meeting of the people involved in day care about two weeks ago and they simply indicated that if the only support coming from the government for child care services was a $4.50 per diem rate, then many of them would simply have to close their doors, or cut back drastically in the services that they operate, or cut back drast ically in the staff they had to operate.

And aga1n I would point out going back to the study on day care undertaken by the Canadian Council and Social Development, they estimate that again the proper staff ratio is based about one to six, not one to eight or one to twelve, So again the thing we're pointing out simply is that that per diem rate as formulated to the cost-sharing program simply won1t be enough, and therefore what is required is this: is that we are asking the Provincial Government to take one step further, and that is to provide a grant basis to the non-profit uommunity sponsored day care centres to help pay for staff and facilities; to make up a difference between what the per diem rates will bring in and what is actually required to provide proper and decent services, That's the major thrust of our program, is simply to ensure that there is a minimum, good standard of services; and that secondly, that those services are not simply limited to those areas where they are not existing, but will in fact become available throughout the province in areas which at this point cannot afford them •.

And I would point out, and I know that perhaps some of my colleagues to my right here might find this a little disturbing, but in fact I have spoken to some parents and to some people who say that one of the major developments that should happen in the Province of Manitoba is the development of day car services in rural Manitoba to help farm wives who presently are unable to get away from the home, so that they themself can move in and provide for a greater free dom and a greater sense of responsibility particularly at times - now I don't want to make the foundation of my argument- I simply point it out for the interests of some of the members, that this is the concern of many women beyond the boundaries of Manitoba, and that I would suggest that they're going to be running for election in two or three years and by that time that what is now a small trickle of development may become a major momentum, a tidal force that will sweep over the constituencies of Pembina and Morris and that they should be prepared to consider what those developments might be, Now, let me point out, Mr.

Speaker, another facet of this program and that is this, That one of the serious difficulties faced by people presently trying to obtain services in child care is the lack of information and the lack of support services. By information it simply means that for really hundreds of families who want to know where the services are, what kind of services are being offered, where do they go, there is really no place for them to find out. They try the Family Bureau, they try the Day Care Nursery Centre but no one is assigned that responsibility.

Similarly there is no one who is specifically commissioned to look into problems that child care agencies should be looking at, Things like nutrition, things like educational training, things like health standards, and therefore we think that the establishment of a child care institute perhaps under the auspices of a bureau like the Family Bureau, which is doing excellent work in the city, could provide the basic informational source and resource centre that could both undertake retraining of people on staff, provide information for those who need the services, provide co-ordination between agencies so that they can share .certain programs, provide for the development of better standards in things like food and health and physical facilities.

In other words, provide the kind of support services and informational services that are required to make that network of child care programs operate properly. Similarly, we think that there should be better standards provided in terms of the regulation of day care centres, particularly again in the question of staffing and personnel, and this is something that the Pr ovincial Government could provide guidelines on.

Another aspect of the resolution is the requirement, and again this can fall under the orbit of the Department of Education, to undertake a real concerted action to provide facilities in our schools for luncheon after school programs and day care programs particu larly.

There are many schools, and we •ve discussed them in this House, many schools particularly in Unicity, I have a couple in my own riding, where there are classrooms empty, which simply are not being used because the age of population changes, and yet while those schoolrooms are not being used children are having to leave that self same school and walk

April 22 , 1974 2677 RESOLUTION 25 (MR . AXWORTHY Cont•d) .••.. four blocks down in the middle of winter to go to a church basement to go to a luncheon after school program . It would seem to me only to make logical sense and also good economic sense to make use of those schoolrooms . I know that there is talk on the City of Winnipeg School Boards to do such a thing and I know that other people have paid a certain degree of lip service to it, The point is it's not happening; or if it•s now · happening it's only happening in isolated cases.

And again I would simply ask the Provincial Gove rnment to use the weight and advantage it has as a Department of Education to prevail upon individual school boards to implement that kind of policy and to make their physical facilities available and they can work out all kinds of arrangements. I think it could actually bring about an interesting partnership between the community and the school in providing for early child care services. This could also be very important , Mr. Speaker , in periods such as the summer holidays .

Again many of the day care programs that we've been talking about are forced to close down during the summertime. That doesn't mean that the woman who has to put her child in there stops working but the day care nursery cl oses down, so again about this time of year - and I can tell you because I 'm getting the calls right now - there •s a great flurry because existing day care services who are running out of LIP grants and so on are having to cut back their programs and many parents are forced now to go back out and find some kind of service to carry them over the summers .

The same thing is true on hol iday periods. There was just a general lack of direction on this. I recognize that the Minister is about to set up a new co-ordinator fo r the program who I read in the newspaper will get a salary of about 13, 000, which is about twice as much as any teacher in a day care program will get - but that•s all right, I guess that•s the !)Terog atives of management - the fact is that what is really required is to provide the missing links, the missing pieces in the program, That if you 're going to do a child care program let•s do a full program, let's not do it in half measur es.

So the p1. :rpose of this resolution and the reason why I ask the support of members of all sides of the House is to provide us with a proper program not a half-baked program, and then we can sort of provide decent child care fo r those who need it, ..... continued next page

267 8 April 22, 197 4 RESOLUTION 25 MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR . SHAFRANSKY: Mr. Speaker, you know in listening to the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge it would be really worthwhile if he was not so desperate and if his party was not so desperate in trying to appeal to those working mothers who are faced with having to find a place for their children. But just this last weekend I want to, Mr . Speaker, point out the des peration that the members of the Liberal Party had introduced to the convention in one of the resolutions, Mr.

Speaker; one resolution on the agenda proposed that contraceptives be made available to everyone from kindergarten age upward. Well, Mr. Speaker, this is really going down, you can see the mentality and of course-- "Asper exudes confidence after meet." Well, when you have. that type of a situation ... A MEMBER : Are you going to amend the resolution again ? MR . SHAFRANSKY: I will get to that point. However, Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge is really behind the times. He seems to be inflicted with "me-tooism".

All. of the things that have been - the ideas that have been put forth by the members of the New Democratic Party when they were in opposition have been and are actively being implemented. (Hear, Hear) Mr. Speaker, the basic design of a day care program has now been completed and sub mitted to the Federal Government and the fact that most of it has not been implemented is be cause of the slowness with which the Federal Government is moving on this question.

However, the target date for ful l operation is scheduled for September ls t-- (Interjection) - -Af ter I fin ish and if I don't use up the 20 minutes then I'll entertain a question from the Honourable Member for Assiniboia. Mr. Speaker, the target date for the full operation of the day care program is scheduled for September 1st, 19 74 . Between then and now community groups who wish to organize day care centres and individuals who wish to provide family day care services will be assisted by personnel of the Department of Health and Social Development with any organiza tional problem.

Family day care is defined as care provided by a person in their own home for up to five children. Gr oup day care is defined as care provided for over five children in a group setting. Gr oup day care centres have to be incorporated non-profit bodies. Start-up grants, Mr. Speaker, will be made available to approved day care centres and family day care homes. A basis for the provincial support of day care centre services is a subsidy to those users who are determined eligible by an income test.

The eligibility criteria are consistent with guidelines which the Federal Government has negotiated with Manitoba over the past year . The costs will be shareable on a 50-50 basis, and I'm sure that members would like to find out what the day care program is about and therefore I will indicate that. The costs will be shareable on a 50-50 basis with the Federal Government under the Canada Assistance Plan. Very generally speaking fami lies whose income is at or near the level of support provided under social allowance will receive day care services at ful l subsidy.

From then on with increasing income families will be required to pay a corresponding propor tion of the day care costs. At the point where family income approaches the average income for Manitoba entitlement to day care subsidy terminates. In the case of each family there will be a determination of the amount of money which is available over and above the income which would entitle them to a full subsidy. I'll entertain a question. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: I thank the honourable member for permitting me to ask a question.

I understand the member has indicated the government is ahead of this resolution and is already doing what the resolution indicates. Well perhaps he should put his scissors away and just vote for the resolution. MR. SHAFRANSKY: Mr. Speaker, when the resolution that is introduced by the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge is such that is of a nature on the type of programs that we have already introduced I believe it requires amendment to make it clear what the government is doing. Mr.

Speaker, of this amount of exc ess income, as I've indicated, each family will be required to contribute. not more than half towards the cost of day care services. If this con tribution is enough to pay for the day care services there is no provincial subsidy. If the cost of day care is greater than the amount payable by the family the province contributes whatever is required to make up the full cost of the day care program. The exact method for computing the cost of day care to a family under this program will be to first of all determine net income.

April 22, 197 4 2679 RESOLUTION 25 (MR. SHAFRANSKY cont'd) ..... Now net income means gross earnings less involuntary deductions including such deductions as income tax, unemployment insurance, Canada Pension Plan contributions, union dues and any other allowable deductions under the lncome Tax laws. The size of family in relation to their income is also taken into consideration by subtracting from that income of say $3, 600 for the first adult in the fam ily, $360 for the second adult and $600 for each child. The resulting figure is the amount of excess income.

The family will be expected to contr ibute 50 percent of this excess income to its day care costs with the govern ment subsidizing additional costs. Where 50 percent of excess income is equal to or greater than the actual cost of care the family would pay the full cost of its day care program. Mr. Speaker, I will try to explain my example. Take a single working mother with two children one of whom is going to school and one of whom is below school age and requires day care.

If the mother's wages are up to $2. 50 per hour giving her a gross income of some $5, 200 per annum, her net income would be less than $4, 800 per annum. Her family exemp tions would be $3, 600 for herself plus $1, 200 for the two children. Since her deductions are equal to or greater than her net income she would be entitled to 100 percent subsidy of her day care costs. Now, Mr. Speaker, in a case of a woman whose wages were to increase to $4. 00 per hour giving her a gross income of some $8, 500 per annum, her net income would probably be more than $7 ,4 00.

After deducting her family exemptions of $4, 800, she would have $2, 600 excess income. At a full year-- (lnterjection) -- you work it out af ter. At a full year day care costs of $1, 300, one-half of her excess income would be suffi cient to cover the full costs for one child. On the other hand . . . A MEMBER : And the union dues . . . ? MR . SH AFRANSKY: She's already deducted that. On the other hand, if she needed day care for more than one child she would still have entitlement to some assistance.

For the woman with one child in day care whose income is between the two figur es mentioned there would be a subsidy paid on a diminishing scale in accordance with her income. Mr. Speaker, in addition to financial eligibilit y recipients of day care subsidies must have a social need for these services. It is considered that the highest priority for day care services is for the single employed parent. The next highest priority is where both parents are working.

These would be cases where both parents are working at or n'ear the minimum wage either full or part-time and where financial independence requires that there be two bread winners in the home. Without a subsidized day care program such families now face the dilemma that the high cost of day care services virtually swallows up the income that can be earned by the second breadwinner . The next priority would be for day care to enable a parent or parents who are enrolled in educational programs.

A further category would be where a parent is at home to look after the children but there are complicating factors on this aspect but, however, special needs such as medical or the other complicating factor such as special needs for medical disability or other disruptions of fam ily life which require temporary care for the children over some period of time. Finally, Mr. Speaker, there will be an entitlement of not more than two days per week to provide some free time for mothers who are otherwise completely house-bound to the dis advantage of themselves and their children.

The only eligibility requirement for this service will be the standard income test mentioned for the subsidies. Mr. Speaker, the two levels of government are looking at a program based on a flat $5 per diem which will be paid both for family day care and to day care centres. No participating day care provided may charge more than this amount to any of its clients whether they are subsidized or not.

If a day care program is able to operate at the required standard for a lesser amount than $5 they would be able to use the extra funds to enrich their program in whatever way is deemed appropriate; or the surplus could be banked for use at a later date. Day care centres will not be required to submit budgets, but they will be expected to provide a financial statement each year and they will be expected to meet prescribed standards. Day care rates will be reassessed annually. Payments will be made to providers on the basis of monthly billings for children under the subsidy program. Mr.

Speaker, application forms and informational material for day care centres ar e being prepared. Very shortly a brochure describing the program will be printed. An of fice of children's day care services will be

2680 April 22, 197 4 RESOLUTION 25 (MR. SHA FRANSKY cont'd) ..... established which will provide consultation to day care operators. We will be able to offer assistance with equipment planning, staff requirements and development generally in developing the day care program. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Emerson that the proposed resolution of the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge be amended by striking out all the words after the word "And

Whereas" in the fourth line and substituting the following: "The government has developed day care program proposals consistent with federal guidelines and designed to qualify for federal finan cial support. Therefore

Be It Resolved that the Governme nt of Manitoba continue the steps it has taken to introduce a province wide consumer based day care program. " MR . SPEAKER: Moved by the Honourable Member for Radisson, seconded by the Honourable Member for Emerson the resolution be amended in the followi ng manner: That the proposed resolution strike out all the words after the words "And

Whereas" in the fourth line . . . Do the honourable members wish to have it read? MR . ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I think there is some genuine confusion with the kind of amendment that we're having and I would appreciate having it read for clarification. MR . SPEAKER: ... amended by striking out all the words after the words "And

Whereas" in the fourth line and substituting the following: "The government has developed day care pro gram proposals consistent with the federal guidelines and designed to qualify for federal financial support. Therefore

Be It Resolved that the Government of Manitoba continue the steps it has taken to introduce a province-wide consumer based day care program. " Are you ready for the question ? The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. ARNOLD BROWN (Rhineland) : Mr. Speaker, as a rural member my impressions on the resolution and on the amendments are possibly a little different than some of the things that have been expressed. I would like to say that first off that in my own area I tried to estab lish a day care centre about two years ago.

We had a four year old son and my wife was teaching and we would have liked to have had some kind of place where we could leave him so that he could get together with other children and enjoy the companionship, but unfo rtunately in a town of about 3, 500 people there were not enough people that were willing to go along with a plan of this. I believe there was six of us that were interested in this so we had to scrap the plan because it would have been too expensive for only six people.

I believe in the city for instance, and even in the rural area, that assistance is needed for mothers or let's say one-parent fami lies. It could be the one parent mother or father. There is no doubt about it that these people have a hard road to hoe and if they have to look after a child or a couple of children there is no other way that they can do this but to go on welfar e. I believe that if these people are willing to go out and work we certainly have to commend them for their ability.

I believe that we should be going into dif ferent areas of the program, we should have a special program let's say for children of, two-year-olds like the Member from Fort Rouge was saying. These could possibly be put in a neighbourhood home where there would be one lady looking after them, so on, probably six children. We should have another program pos sibly from the two to five years of age at which time children start going to kindergarten.

We should be looking after them and we should also look after the children of parents let's say who are both working, and provide lunches for them after school because I believe that there is nothing worse than to kick a child out of school and have him have no place to go but to play in the streets and get into trouble. I believe that they should be supervised until such time as what the parents come home. Now this could be done by how people can afford to pay for these facilities.

Let's say if there is the mother only there is just absolutely no way that she could pay for this and make a living so naturally she would have to be subsidized. But anybody who is earning money let's say above the average Wage certainly should be asked I would say to fund this program them selves. There is no reason why people who possibly would be earning less money but preferred to look after their childr.en themselves why they should be helping su bsidize somebody else's child or parents, that were earning more than they were just because they decided to look af ter their own child.

This is very apparent in the rural areas. Very many people still prefer to have.their children at home and they like to look after them until the children are old enough to fund for themselves.

April 22, 197 4 2681 RESOLUTION 25 (MR. BR OWN cont'

d) I believe that the resolution that the Member from Fort Rouge put forth was a good reso lution. I believe that possibly in some areas he was possibly carried away because as far as I'm concerned we have to look at priorities and if we were at that stage of the game where we had no other priorities which I thought would be more important than what this one is certainly I would say let's go ahead with this and let's pay for this out of the public purse.

But unfo rtu nately there ar e many other areas that we have to consider, our budget in Health and Social Development is very high and I think that we will have to take a very careful look at any new programs that are being instituted. There are some programs that are needed badly and some of these will be coming forward shortly, but I still think that we will have to take a very close look at our priorities and establish what we can affo rd. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR . PATRICK: Mr.

Speaker, I only have a few comments to make on this resolution. will not take too much time of the House but I was disappointed with the remarks of the Member for Radisson because his amendment indicates that the government will continue to do what it's doing at the present time, and I am disappointed because really the indications and the studies that we have before us have indicated that some 12, 000 women, mothers, in this province need some form of day care fac ilities. That's a pretty large number, Mr. Speaker, because what are we talking about.

If you do not provide any kind of facilit ies for these people the cost to the province will be much greater than it is at the present time. I can talk from just some little experience. I know several of the people that have worked with the firm that I'm connected with for quite a few years and they would not have been able to be employed if they wouldn't have been able to find facilities for their children when the children were very young. This is where the Member for Radisson has missed a point. He will say the government will continue to carry on. But, Mr.

Speaker, the people that are getting the facilities at the present time are not satisfied with what's available in the province and in the city. They're not satisfied. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR . SHAFRANSKY: I just wonder if the Honourable Member for Assiniboia has wrote to the federal MPs and asked the Federal Liberals to make sure that this program would be speeded-up, that they would not have taken the delayed action that they had and caused the longer period of time of implementing the day care program? MR.

PATRICK: The Member again from Radisson is not informed, because it's because of the federal legislation that the government is availing itself to this program. It's because of the federal legislation that's making it possible.

We feel that the present government has an opportunity to provide the type of care facilities that's required in this province and this is where we've asked for assistance to non-profit community based care services and this is where the member has said, well you know we'll continue what we're doing, and it's well-known that the per diem that's required to keep the programs operating in the community at the present time is insuffi cient, that even the present programs and fac ilities that we have may have to close on the per diem basis. I understand it's not suff icient.

And surely the people that are making themselves available to these facilities know perhaps more than I do what is available and what downfall and the shortcomings of the program is. We talk about the initial start-up to cover equipment facility costs and grants covering staff based on some formula, which surely the member would agree that some formula is required so that these facilities can be started in many of the communities and it would be much easier to start them at the present time.

Surely the member would want to agree that we need some guidelines related to operation of all care services in this province and I am very much disappointed that the member feels that, you know, enough is done at the present time, because this is not the feeling of many people that require these fac ilities. I believe that what would be a good thing if one of these evenings on a pr ivate member's day if somebody can steal the scissors from the member perhaps we may get some more debate and one of the resolutions through.

But really I believe that the member confus ed not only himself but confused many of us on this side with his statistics, because he quoted for some at least 10 to 15 minutes about statistics and had lost us some way through the middle of his speech because I recall quite well last year he talked on the budget debate and got carried away on an economics speech and quoted for some 15 minutes about statistics and even confused him self. So perhaps not only that he was confused as far as statistics were concerned but he tr ied to confuse the members in the House.

2682 April 22, 1974 RESOLUTION 25 (MR. PATRICK cont'

d) But really I feel that what was proposed .in the resolution is something that shouldn't be considered, I feel that it should be considered, because I feel if we have provisions and provide day care facilities we would have many mothers that want to work are able to work and would do so but they have to have a place where they can put their children in. So surely the member would I hope take this resolution much more serious than he has, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question ? The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr.

Speaker, I just want to take the opportunity to correct some of the statements made by the Member from Radisson because I'm afraid that while he was obviously in the depth of preparing intensive research that he repeated to the House he missed what I was saying. Therefore I'd like to point out to him exactly what was said. It is simply this. That the present program as the Member for Radisson outlined which indicates that the per diem grant will be no higher than $5 per day is simply not enough.

Understand? - simply not enough to provide for the adequate existence of most of the existing day care services that are presently operating in the City of Winnipeg.

That at a meeting sponsored by the New Democrats two weeks ago at which an official of the Department of Social Development was there, almost every single representative of day care agencies indicated at that time that if they are going to simply have to rely upon the cost-sharing formula and the per diem rate out lined as part of this cost-sharing program, they will simply have to cutback on services or fire their existing teachers or in fact close down, and that's why this resolution is designed simply to say, we agree with the per diem rate. That's great, that's a major step forward, we're in full agreement.

Now take the step, as by the way your colleagues in British Columbia have already done, and I would put for the member's consideration the day care folder put out by the Department of Health and Welf are which deals with the British Columbia program which indicates that they recognize that costs have gone up, that a $5 per diem rate is not enough, there is nothing in the federal guidelines which says that an individual province cannot on its own accord take the step beyond and provide individual grants to agencies or organizations where needed to prov ide for staff. Now that is in the resolution.

If the member had read it he would have recognized that rather than simply repeating what he was talking about we in fact are indicating they should take a couple of steps beyond to fill the program out. Now, at the same time I'd like also to bring to the Minister's, or members - and I keep saying the Minister, why do I keep saying the Minister - I'm sorry that must be a Freudian slip or something, Mr. Speaker, it keeps--Oh, and the third Minister's up there, it keeps slipping off my tongue that way. I'm very glad by the way, Mr.

Speaker, that the Minister retrieved the member's speech so that he could read it because I think the member has some very useful things in it. What I'd like to point out secondly, Mr. Speaker, is the other part of our resolution deals with the existence of child care institutes. And again this is based upon what the British Columbia people have done, which provides informa tion where you go and how you do it because It's presently not available, and if the member thinks that the present Department of Health and Social Development provides that info rmation, I would offer for him a little test.

That is that tomorrow morning he get on the phone and start trying to find out where day care fac ilities are in this province because I'll say that he will return to this House by 2:30 tomorrow after noon more confused than he usually is. Because he would find out that in fact it's almost impos sible to find out.in the City of Winnipeg, that you get the runaround by every dif ferent agency.

So we're simply saying to the Provincial Government, take under the advisability of looking at the present very excellent services that are being provided by some of the private agencies who have a good many years experience in this field, give them some extra resources to pro vide for those infor mation centres, for those resource centres, for those development centres so that groups like the Honourable Member for Rhineland when he tried to set his organization up, or the Member for Radisson when he may want to set one up in his riding some way to be able to get the best kind of information, the parents will know where to go, to know exactly what they can do in terms for providing for better faciliti es.

As well, the member did not address himself to the questions of schools which is also part of the resolution, so I would suggest that unquestionably the member and this group in the House believe in the same thing. All we're talking about is the means that should be used to

April 22, 197 4 2683 RESOLUTION 25 (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) ..... bring it about. What we're saying is at the present moment as much as can be understood in terms of the guidelines and the cost sharing with the Federal Governme nt is not enough to give us an effective child care program in the Province of Manitoba. The design of this resolution is to fill in the gaps, to providefor the extra assistance where needed and to provide for the information and resources required.

If the government was to take under advisability and implement the additional items included in this resolution I think we could all in this House, along with the Member for Rhineland who speaks for that group, our group , and your group, would then be able to take some real satisfaction that we're taking a major step forward in providing really good child care for all those families who really need it. (Applause) MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, --(I nterjection) - MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. SHE RMAN: George-- (Interjection) --Ge orge ... MR.

SPEAKER: Order please. MR. SHERMAN: I wish to assure the honourable members opposite that the ninth inning is being reserved for the reliever from Pembina and he'll be, he'll be coming out the mound any moment now. But Casey Stengel from Morris permitting me to go for a minute or two, Mr. Speaker, and I want to say at the outset that I'm most disappointed that the Honourable Member for Radisson would move his amendment and then not make it available to us on this side of the House.

Ther e is no copy of it over here for us to work from-- (Interjection)- However, there is no copy of it for us to work from, but, Mr. Speaker, going on past perform ance, going on past performance from the Honourable Member for Radisson we can as sume that the amendment is one of an emasculating variety which simply nullifies and neutralizes everything that was in the resolution, so it's possible I suppose, Sir, to speak to it on that basis. Thank you. I now have a copy of the resolution in front of me and a swift glance serves to bear out the point I was trying to make, Mr.

Speaker, that it totally emasculates the resolu tion that was proposed by the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge, and therefore is completely unacceptable to us on this side, Sir. I think the original resolution has a substantial amount to recommend it.

I don't want to go over ground that's already been covered by my colleagues, and by others on this side of the House, but I would like to say that my experience, and I'm sure the experience of many mem bers around this Chamber, is that there is a desperate need for assistance of a meaningful nature in the Child Day Care Program in this community and in this province and the kind of vapid, innocuous substitution of words proposed by the Honourable Member for Radisson hardly comes anywher e near the mark of serving that need. Mr.

Speaker, one of the things that I think we have to recognize is that institutional day care programming is not the be-all and the end-all to the problem. Institutional Day Care Programming is really old school programming in the field in .my view, and I'm sure that the Member for Fort Rouge and many others in the House would agree with me.

I think that it's a kind of programming that's better than nothing but it leaves a great deal to be desired both in the level of the child who is receiving the care during the day, and on the part of the families who are involved whose children are in the institutional programs.

There is some thing cold and insensitive and impersonal both from the point of view of the care given and the care received when it is done purely within institutional walls and an institutional framework, and I think it's highly desirable and necessary that we get away from that approach in the child care and day care field, and we develop a program of as sistance to parents, to homes, to fa milies who are willing to take children on a day to day basis and fit them into their own family environ ment, who are willing to take children and look after them during the in-between school hours, at noon, and after school in the aft ernoon before their own parents ar e at home, and thus give them a family environment, a home family environment, in which to live and exist during the day.

And it's that kind of program that needs to be developed and that kind of program that requires funding and support. That's the area that this government should be looking in. I think all of that is envisaged and implied in the resolution before us and I would urge all members, Sir, to repudiate out of hand the negative amendment which has been introduced by the Member for Radisson. (Applause) MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina.

2684 April 22, 197 4 RESOLUTION 25 MR . GEO RGE HENDERSON (Pembina) : Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I have been listening with great interest to the debate here tonight, and I've heard it said many times about the Liberals could outdo the Socialists, and having listened to the Honourable Member from Fort Rouge I'm sure that he could. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. MR. HENDERSON: In listening to many of these speeches, although I admire him in many ways, I certainly believe that he's just as big a Socialist as anybody over there.

When they're going to start and take children, practically taking the whole fa mily, taking them away from the time they're born, you know, all through school and other people looking aft er them, willing to pay up to five and six dollars a child - imagine raising a family like some people raise, and having them go to Day Care Centres, and other people paying a large percentage for it out of their work. You know, what's become of home life ? And what became of the home ? We should be trying to hold this together.

And where we have families growing up, where there's four or five, surely to goodness they have a responsibility if they're raising a fam ily to stay there and look after them. I think really if the people haven't got more of a sense of responsibility than to stay home and look after tbem, then they should darn well pay for it themselves. you know, it shouldn't be put on to somebody else, any portion of it even. Now, I wouldn't say, having said this, that there shouldn't be such places for deserted mothers and people who through loss of their other partner or something like this, that shouldn't have care.

But let's keep it at a level, let's keep it at a level wher e they're helped, not something where they'd be better off than if they were looking after their own. And having listened to the Member from Fort Rouge, I think if we took his program, that's just about where we'd end up on the whole thing.--(Interjection)--None of the members speaking went to the extremes that the Member from Fort Rouge went.

No, I'm not against Day Care Centres for people who are separated or deserted, or any of these things, trying to earn a living, and trying to have their child cared for so that they can go out and maybe earn more than--by considerably more than what they're paying out. But t{) set up these things and to even say taking them into rural areas where farm people could be using them where they have their family, I jus t think you know, that this has got to be an awful type of socialism that we're talking about. MR . SPEAKER: Order, please.

The hour of ten o'cl ock having arrived the House is now adjourned and stands adjourned until 2:30 tomorrow afternoon. (Tuesday)

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-1-98
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Volume / chapter	30th 1st hansardpdf 98.pdf
Language	en
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