Manitoba Hansard — 2 November 1989 (Sitting 22, 35th Legislature, 1st Session)

35-1-22

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 First Session -T hirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS {HANSARD) 39 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Denls c. Rocan Speaker VOL. XXXIX No. 22 -1 0 a. m., FRIDAY, NOVEMBER 9, 19 90 Printed by thB Office of the Queens Printer, Province of Msnltobs ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARR, James CARSTAI RS, Sharon CERIL LI, Marianne CHEEMA, Gulzar CHOM IAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory ·DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim , Hon. EVANS, Ciif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FIN DLAY, Glen, Hon. FRI ESEN , Jean GAU DRY, Neil GIL LESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LA THLIN, Oscar LAURENDE AU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack, Hon. PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDE R, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary WASYL YCIA -LEIS, Ju dy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Os borne Thompson Wellington Crescentwood River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Portage la Prairie Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. Jam es Lakeside Charleswood lnterlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsland Gimli Point Douglas lnkster The Pas St. Norbert Elm wood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Glad stone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St.

Johns Swan River PARTY Liberal NDP NDP Liberal Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC NDP PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL V OF MANITOBA Friday, November 9, 19 90 The House met at 10 a.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Mr. Ben Svelnson (La Verendrye): I beg to present the First Report on the Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources. Mr. Clerk (WIIIIam Remnant): Your Committee met on Thursday, November 2, 19 89 at 10 a.m., in Room 254 of the Legislative Building, to consider the Annual Reports of the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission for the fiscal years ended March 31 , 19 88, and March 31 , 19 89.

Your Committee also met on Tuesday, November 6, 19 90, at 8 p.m., in Room 255 of the Legislative Building, to consider the Annual Reports of the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission for the fiscal years ended March 31 , 19 88, 19 89 and 19 90. Mr. Emerson, President and Chief Executive Off icer; Mr. Ahoff, Vice-President, Finance; Miss Hamilton, Vice-President, Licensing; Mr. Lussier, Vice-Pr esident, Purchasing ; and Mr.

Johnst on, Di rect or, Retail Ope rati ons , pr ovided such information as was requested by Members of the Committee with respectto the Reports and business of the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission for the Committee meeting on Thursday, November 2, 1989. Mr. Smith, President and Chief Executive Office r; Mr. Ahoff, Vice-President, Finance; Miss Hamilton, Vice -P resident, Licensi ng ; and Mr.

Johnst on, Di rector, Retail Opera tions, pr ovided such information as was requested by Members of the Committee with respect to the Reports and business of the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission for the Committee on Tuesday, November 6, 1990. Your Com mittee has considered the Annual Repor ts for the Manit oba Liquor Co ntrol Commission for the fiscal years ended March 31 , 1988, March 31, 1989, and March 31 , 1990, and has adopted the same as presented. Mr. Svelnson: Mr. Speaker, I moved, seconded by the Honourable Member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay), that the report of the committee be received.

Motion agreed to. Mr. Svelnson: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Second Report of the Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources. Mr. Clerk: Your Com mittee met on Tuesday, November 7, 19 89, Tuesday, November 14 , 19 89, and on Wednesday, November 7, 19 90, in Room 255 of the Legislative Building to consider the Annual Reports of Manitoba Data Services for the fiscal periods ending March 31 , 1 987 , December 31 , 1987, and December 31 , 19 88.

At the November 6, 19 90, meeti ng, your Com mittee agreed by unanimous consent to also consider the Annual Report of Manitoba Data Services for the fiscal period ending December 31 , 19 89. Mr. C. J. Cha lmers, President and Gener al Manager; Mr . R. Pennycook, Chair man; Mr. J. Jones, Vice-President, Client Support Services; Mr. N. H. Shakespeare , Vice-President, Operations Su ppor t Ser vi ces ; and Mr. J. G.

Ca mpbe ll, Vice-President, Corporate Services, provided such inform ation as was requested with respect to the Annual Reports and business of the Manitoba Data Services at the November 7, 19 89, and November 14 , 19 89, Committee meetings. Mr. Mike Bessey, Sec retary to the Treasury Board , and Mr. Tony De Luca , Di rector of Information Technology Review Off ice, Treasury Board provided such information as was requested with respect to the Annual Reports and business of the Manitoba Data Services at the November 7, 19 90, Committee meeting.

Your Comm ittee has consider ed the Annu al Reports of the Manitoba Data Services for the fiscal periods ending March 31 , 19 87, December 31 , 1987, December 31 , 1988, and December 31 , 1989, and has adopted the same as presented. Mr. Svelnson: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honour able Member for Seine River (Mrs.

978 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA November 9, 1990 Dacquay), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. Mr. Svelnson: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Third Report on the Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources. Mr. Clerk: Your Comm ittee met on Tuesday, October 31 , 19 89, at 10 a.m., in Room 255 of the Legislative Building, to consider the Annual Report of the Manitoba Public In surance Corporat ion. At the meeting on Tuesday, October 31 , 19 89, your Committee elected Mr. Pankratz as Chair man.

Your Committee also met on Thursday, November 8, 19 90, at 10 a.m., in Room 255 of the Legislative Building, to consider the Annual Reports of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation. Mr. Harold Thompson, Chair man of the Board of Directors, Mr. J. W. Bardua, President and General Manager, and other members of the staff provided such information as was requested by Members of the Committee with respect to the Reports and busi ness of the Man itoba Public In sur ance Corpora tion.

Your Committee examined the Annual Report of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation for the fiscal year ended October 31 , 19 88, and adopted the same as presented. Mr. Svelnson: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay), that the repor t of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Ja ck Penne r (M inister of Rural Development): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table, for your inform ation, the Department of Rural Dev elopment Expenditures and Estimates for 19 90-91 . INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of Honourable Members to the gallery wher e we have from the Ethe lber t School , twenty-six Grade 11 students. They are under the direction of Sandy Hafenbrak and Micheline Jean . This school is located in the constituency of the Honou rable Member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk). On behalf of all Honourable Members, I welcome you here this morning. * (10 05) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Manitoba lntercultural Council Report Recommendations Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Last January and February this province was plagued with incidents of a racial nature that caused all Members of this Legislature to be very concerned. We suggested and the Gove rnment agreed to establ ish a racism com mittee , the Man itoba lntercultural Committee, which has now produced their report, Mr.

Speaker. lt has some pretty startling state ments, perce ptions tha t our schools are pla gued with in to ler ant behaviour towards aboriginal youth and newcomers of diverse cultural backgrounds, perceptions that our curriculum in our schools lean toward a Eurocentric bias in content, a stereotypical viewpoint of people in our countries and in the western hemisphere. My question to the Premier (Mr.

Film on) is: Given that this Governm ent has this report, what action and strategy will his Government take to show leadership in the recommendations that have been produced to his Government dealing with racism in Manitoba and the challenges that presents for all of us in this Legislature? Hon. Bonnle Mltchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation): I do want to indicate that we did ask the Manitoba lntercultural Council for recommendations. I received an interim report just a week ago from the Manitoba lntercultural Council on specific initiatives that should be taken.

I indicated yesterday in Question Period that in fact it was an interim report. We will be looking at it and trying to develop strategies over the next period of time. The total Manitoba lntercultural Council has not yet ratified that report. I am under the understanding, in a letter that I have received from the executive of the Manitoba lntercultural Council, that the total board of MIC will be meeting in January. At that point they will be ratif ying that report as final , or looking at that report to ratify it. When that is done we will be able to give a complete report.

November 9, 1990 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 979 Manitoba lntercultural Council Report Recommendations Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): As the Member well knows, the report states that many of these issues and initiatives are well known to the Government, to the people of Manitoba. What we require now is not study, but action on the part of the Government to show leadership.

My qu estion to the Premier is: The recommendation dealing with the multimedia public aware ness program to combat racism and the recommendation to provide resources to coincide with the public aware ness progr am, is that a program , given the Government has funded public awareness programs before? Is that a program that the Gov ernm ent will suppo rt pursu ant to the recommendations? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Let us just ensure that the Leader of the Opposition understands that we asked for this repor t to be commissioned, because we believed that there was a serious problem.

We believed that the way to do it was to undertake this kind of study, to quantify and put some bounds on the dimensions of the problem and identify it properly and of course, as has been said many times, identification of the problem is 50 percent of the solution. We are on the way to doing it. The report, as the Minister has indicated, has not yet been adopted in total by the lntercultural Council. When it is it will be referred to us for consideration and, as we have done with each and every study that we have undertaken, we have been given a full and comprehensiv e response.

We have not on an ad hoc basis picked certain things out and said, this is it, we will go and do it. We have said we have to give it the thorough response that it deserves, because it has been a year in the making. There has been a lot of study and valuable work put into it. You do not just pick one thing ad hoc and say, do you agree or disagree? That is not the way that a good Government responds to it. Jt may be good fodder for Question Period and somebody trying to make a political quick trick, but it is not the way to embark upon good policy developmen t in this province, Mr. Speaker. •

(1010) Mr. Doer: Let us not talk about quick tricks. Let us jus t talk about backbo ne. One of the recommendations in the report states that the Government- An Honourable Member: Have you got any? Mr. Doer: We will find out about the Premier (Mr. Filmon) in a minute-that the Govern ment should take the lead in dealing with racism in this province and dealing with the racial intolerances in this province. Acting Minister of Culture Removal and Apology Request Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Given the fact that the Manitoba lntercultural Committee is given power of legislation to recommend to the Government, and given the Premier in the past has said we cherish the recommendation that comes from the MIC, will the Premier now act on the letter he received two days ago and either apologize for the statements of his Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Neufeld) or rem ove him from the acting capacity? Will he act and lead rather than just taking cheap shots in the Legislature? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, you know this is the Member who over and over again urges people of other political Parties in other circumstances that they ought to have the courage of their convictions to speak out even when they disagree from time to time with Government and with policy and so on. Mr. Speaker, I have said that I neither accept comments which were made by a Member of my Cabinet-! have said that we have a policy, a policy which we have had the courage to put in writing, that no previous administration did, our multicultural policy.

We are, in addition to that, in the process of developing a multicultural Act which no other previous administration had the courage to do. We are carrying out our policy as it is stated in writing, because it is the policy of the Government of Manitoba. That takes courage, unlike the cheap politics that are made from statement to statement, from day to day, by Members of his Party. Mr. Doer: Well, I do not think the multicultural community, when it meets with the Government Minister today, will talk about in glowing terms the courage of the Premier.

They will talk clearly about his equivocation and his moving away from a strong position, Mr. Speaker.

980 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA November 9, 1990 Human Rights Commission Case Backlog Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I have a new question to the Premier. He has, in his role of Treasury Boar d and in his role as Premier drama tic ally incr eased the re sour ces in the bureaucr acy of the multicultural secretariat of Govern ment. Com ments have been raised in this House about the bureaucrats who have been hired in that secretariat, but he has more than doubled and close to tripled the finances in that bureaucracy, in that secretariat.

My question is: Will the Premier have enough resources in Treasury Board to implement the recom mendations to have more human rights officers to deal with the backlog that presently exists dealing with cases dealing with racis m in the Province of Manitoba? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, we have increased the resources of the multicultural secretariat, because they are doing things that were never done before for the positive benefit of the multicultural community, such as the development of a multicultural policy-first time in the history of this prov ince ; such as the development of a multicultural Act-first time in this province; such as the establishment of a multicu ltural outreach office-first time in the history of this province. That is why we have increased their resources to do work that the multicultural community wanted to see done. I make no apology for that. Mr.

Speaker, we will continue to evaluate any proposals that are put before us that require additional resources to do things that are important and necessary for the people of Manitoba. When I see such a proposal as the Member is talking about, I will then take it into account as part of the Treasury Board process in reviewing the Estimates of the Department of Culture, Heritage and Recreation as we would with any other proposal that comes before us. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I assumed of course the Premier had read the report. I will table the copies of the executive

summary for him. Human Rights Commission Resources Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): My question to the Premier is: If he is able to double and mor e than triple the bureaucr acy within the Department of Culture, Heritage and Recreation, will he also be able to deal with the real problems on the streets and in the com munit ies, in the schoolyards of Manitoba and in the workplaces of Manitoba by having real resources placed to where the multicultural community is recommending it?

That is in the human rights areas of the Attorney Gene ral 's Depar tment, wher e cases are backlogged and have been backlogged for two years, as the Pr emier knows. Will they be able to have concu rrent resources in those areas dealing with the real community racism, as recommended by the Manitoba lntercultural Council in the report? * (1 015) Hon. Bonnle Mltchelson (M inster of Culture, Heritage and Recreation): Mr.

Speaker, when we get into dealing in detailed Estimates, when the Department of Culture, Heritage and Recreation comes up we will be able to address some of the concerns that the Leader of the Opposition has been talking about. I do want to go back to when I was first appointed as Minister, when we were dealing with developing a policy for the Province of Manitoba and I met with the Manitoba lntercultural Council. One of the concerns they had at the time was that all we had within Government was a multicultural co-ordinator which was set up under the fo rmer administration.

They fe lt we needed more of a commitment within the bureaucracy to develop overall Government stra te gy on deali rig with the mu lticultu ral com mu ni ty. We addressed that issue by establishing the secretariat with something that the community wanted, and we have acted on that. Mr. Doer: The Minister has a very selective memory about the position the MIC took on her unilateral removal of their funding autonomy and taking it back to the Government bureaucracy. Let us remember the resol utions have been passed by the multicultural community. Cultural Awareness Programs Implementation Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): My last question is to the First Min ister. There is a recomme ndation to have incr eased awareness programs in the education system for teachers, in the judiciary for judges and even in the Legislature for Members of this Legislature.

November 9, 1990 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 981 Will the Premier implement that recommendation for his Members of the Legislature so we can have true awareness-o bviously for all of us--in terms of cul tural aware ness? Will he implemen t the recommendations for the teachers in our education system and the judiciary as recommended by the MIC? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): As I indicated I do not make my responses on an ad hoc basis, based on questions put in the Legislature.

When the report is considered it will be considered fully by Treasury Board, Cabinet, by the Minister responsible, and a comprehensive response will be put forth, not an ad hoc, one- by-one review of things based on questions in the Legislature, Mr. Speaker. That would be the way the NDP ran Go vernment, that kind of ad hoc decision making. We will not do that. Conawapa Dam Project Hydro Spending Mr.James Carr(Crescentwood): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro. Could the Minister please tell the House how much Manitoba Hydro has spent to date on the Conawapa project? Hon.

Harold Neufeld (M inister responsible for The Manitoba Hydro Act): Mr. Speaker, that is a number I do not have on my finger tips at this mom ent, but it is probably in the area of several-maybe $100 million. I am not certain of the amount. That is a good question for when Hydro comes before the committee of the Legislature. Mr. Carr: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question to the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro. Could the Minister tell us what Manitoba Hydro intends to spend in its own capital forecasting by March 31 , 19 91 ? Mr. Neufeld: That again, Mr.

Speaker, would be a good question when Manitoba Hydro appears before the legislative committee next week. Mr. Carr: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table a document called Capi tal Ex penditur e Forecast Program. Manitoba Hydro intends to spend by March 31 , 19 91 , $1 32.9 million on the Conawapa project. My question to the Minister of Hydro is: Why is Manitoba Hydro spending millions of dollars on this project before the recommendation of the Public Utilities Board, before the recommendation of the Cr own Cor por ations Council and before the necessary environmental reviews? Mr.

Speaker: Order, please; order, please. The Honourable First Minister (Mr. Filmon) and the Honourable Member for St. Jam es (Mr. Edwards), if you want to carry on a pri vate conversation you can do so outside the Chamber. Mr. Neufeld: Mr. Speaker, certain preparatory work has to be done before tenders may be called. The engineering has to be done. Some groundwork has to be done so that indeed those who tender on the project have the information necessary to tender. The tender has to be prepared.

There is an awful lot of work tha t goes in to the pr oject befo re -(interjection)- They apparently know the answers, Mr. Speaker, so I will sit down . *

(1020) Environmental Laws Increased Fines Ms. Marlanne Cerllll (Radlsson): Mr. Speaker, we were made aware again this morning that the public is not being adequately protected in . the area of enforce ment of environ mental law, especially under the area of transportation of hazardous goods. In spite of pleading guilty to at least three charges of the mishandling of dangerous goods, Burns was only fi ned $500, which amounts to a licence in effect to break the law rather than as a deterrent.

Will the Minister of Environment now get tough with enforcing environmental law and increase the fines for charges under the hazardous goods Act? Hon. Glen Cummlngs (M inister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, the fi nes that were levied against this particular trucker a year ago were done as a ticket on a fir st offe nce. We now are gathering information on this latest complaint which may very well, if proper evidence is produced, lead to much stiffer repercussions in the court system. Reporting System Ms. Marlanne Cerllll (Radlsson): Mr. Speaker, my supplementary question is also for the Minister of Environment.

Considering that employers fearful of losing their jobs are the ones most likely to have information regarding environmental hazards, will the Minister

982 LEG ISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA November 9, 1990 ensure that a more confidential process is available in the Department of Environment to protect workers reporting questionable practices? Hon. Glen Cummlngs (M inister of Environment): Mr.

Speaker, I am troubled by what I saw in the paper today and certainly am concerned that an employee may be exposing himself to actions which may be quite inappropriate as a result of this, but I· do not know all of the details and certainly wish to assure all Members of this House and anybody in the public who is listening that, it is my undertaking that if anybody approaches my department on a confidential basis with information that it will be kept confidential . If there is any breach of that I want to know about it. Department of Environment Staffing Ms. Marlanne Cerllll (Radlsson): Mr.

Speaker, my final supplementary is also for the Minister of Environment. Will the Minister now tell us specifically his plans to incr ease the number of staff in the area of en vi ronmen t re gulatio n, insp ection and enfor cement in the Department of Environment? Hon. Glen Cummlngs (M inister of Environment): -(interjection) - Mr. Speake r, I hear derogatory comments from the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Doer). lt seems to me that there are a number of ways that the public may not be, and obviously the Members of the Opposition may not be, totally aware of the numbers of ways the Department of Envir onment has to en force en viron men tal regulations. Those go far beyond adding people to my dep artment. We have intr oduced 14 new positions in Dange rous Go ods , Handling and Transportation. As well as that, we have access through police. We have access through federal off icial s. We have access thr ough Natural Resources offices.

We have access through public health officials and through local police for ces, whether they are RCMP or otherwise. Mr. Speaker, we have an enormous number of people on the ground who have the capability of enforcing and inf orming regarding The Environment Act. I believe that as the public becomes better aware and better educated that they will also be a valuable resource to us in infor ming when there are tim es that ther e ar e activi ties going on that enforce ment officers may not have been aware of. Agricultural Productivity Rejection of Federal Statement Mr.John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr.

Speaker, ! have a question for the Minister of Agriculture. Pool deleg ates and all Mani tobans were shock ed yesterday to hear the comments of one Doug Hedley, the senior federal ivory tower bureaucrat on policy when he said, contrary to the facts, that Canadian farm ers have become less productive than those elsewhere and are losing, consequently therefore fal ling behind in the world marketplace. These outrageous comments come on the heels of recor d low grain prices and an escalating international trade war, dried up world markets, a near record crop lying on the fields and skyrocketing fuel costs.

I ask the Minister-and yet this bureaucr at blames the farm ers- will this Minis ter reject catego rica lly these statements made by this apologist for the federal Conservatives and with regard to the productivity of Western Canadian fa rmers? Hon. Glen Flndlay (M inister of Agricultu re): Mr. Speaker, I have spoken hundreds of times in Mani toba and have constantly reminded the prod ucers of Manitoba that they are the most productive in the world. They produce the highest quality food. They were the most efficient in doing exactly that, and fa rmers know that.

They worked with all the issues that he has mentioned with regard to difficulties of trying to maintain that competitive edge. I have told this Member many times that our future is on the table at GATT and that is where we have to have resolutions. There is no question that we can go to that table and claim that we are the most efficient, very competitive and that we have done a good job in all the aspects of putting food on the table for the world. Manitoba fa rmers, western Canadian fa rmers are second to none. Agricultural Community Cost-of-Production Formula Mr.

John Plohman (Dauphin): Well, it is nice to get those assurances, Mr. Speaker, but clearly the federal Gove rnment is sending out this bureaucrat to soften up Canadian fa rmers because they realize the GATT talks are not going to be successful and to reduce the expectations of farmers for the '90s. I ask this Minister, as a consequence of that reality, will he begin immediately the process of

November 9, 1990 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 983 establishing a cost-of-production form ula system for western Canadian grain fa rmers, at least those in Manitoba, so that they will be able to weather this crisis, this deepening crisis in 19 90? Hon. Glen Flndlay (M inister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, the Mem ber is well aware that over the past year, little more than a year, a task force has been placed across Cana da consis ting of 33 people, 19 of whom are fa rmers.

I can assure him that the farm er members from Manitoba had been leading the charge in developing a process to protect the fa rmers from risk. lt is called the Safety Ne t Pr ogram- two componen ts GRIP and NISA-and it is moving towards completion in terms of presenting it to the Ministers. lt will recognize the hurt and try to reduce the risk for the farmers year in and year out because of low production and because of international grain prices.

I will have to tell the Members, I have told all the fa rmers of Manitoba many times, no risk-protection mechanism we put in place in Canada can fight a grain trade war. There has to be a two-focus attempt to resolve this. One is GATT and the other is the internal risk-protection mechanism that we can put in place as Gover nments and producers in the country of Canada. * (1 025) Agricultural Economy All-Party Task Force Mr.John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr.

Speaker, given that the safety net is coming unraveled and it is not being dealt with, and since the Minister will not deal with cost of production, I ask the Premier whether he will establish immediately an all-Party task force to deal with this deepening crisis in agriculture so that the groundwork will be laid to deal with this crisis in rural Manitoba. Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the Minister -(interjection)- The Member for St. Vital, Mr. Speaker, has asked a very good question. An Honourable Member: St. Boniface. Mr. Fllmon: St. Boniface ? I am sorry .

Okay, I am a block and a half out, you are about- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. I have recognized the Honourable First Minister to deal with the matter raised by the Honourable Member for Dauphin. Mr. Fllmon: I am not 300 kilometres out like you are, John . Mr. Speaker- Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I do not believe it is in order for the Premier to be continuously taking cheap shots from his feet. Besides, he should have learned from the election that all the cheap shots he took against the Member for Dauphin only increased his majority- Mr.

Speaker: Order, please. The Honour able Member does not have a point of order. Mr. Fllmon: On the same point of order, Members opposite insist- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. There was no point of order. *** Mr. Film on: I would have thought that the Members opposi te would have asked about the unemployment rate in this Question Period, Mr. Speaker. I would think that the Member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) would like to have some fodder for tomorrow's Brandon Sun, that he might like to have a good

article about unemployment- * (1 030) Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. I would like to remind the Honourable First Minister that I have recognized you to deal with the matter raised by the Honourable Member for Dauphin . The Honourable Minister should deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate. Mr. Fllmon: The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay) has been working with his colleagues to come up with a comprehensive safety-net proposal for more than a year.

That proposal is in its final form that will be considered by all Gov ernments across the country. lt is the most comprehe nsive response to the farm community that has ever been put forth by any Governments in the past. In addition to that of course he, along with the Minister of Industry and Trade (Mr. Ernst), will be going to the final GATT round talks to protect the interests of the Manitoba fa rmers. We were in Geneva last month to do precisely that, to put the case forward for our farmers in

984 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA November 9, 1990 Manitoba to ensure that they do get the kind of treatment they need with respect to removal of export subsidies in the farm community. Mr. Speaker, we are doing things that have not been done by the previous administration, because we believe that it is in the best interests of protection to the Manitoba fa rmer. I will conti nue to do everything possible within our control. HIV Studles Public Awareness Mr. Gulzar Cheema (The Maples): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health.

The Manitoba Health Services Commission is currently conducting two studies, one named the Manitoba Cross-Match Study; the second is The Manitoba Study. Both these studies are aiming at fi nding the levels of HIV infection in Manitoba. My question is to the Minister of Health. Can the Minister of Health tell us why the public was not more widely informed about the studies? Can he tell us, has he consulted any patient advocacy groups, and why was this study hidden? Hon. Donald Orchard (M inister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, I did not hear the entire question, but I presume the qu estion is about Man itoba's participation in the national seroprevalence study as to the incidence of HIV infecti on, a blind study carried out provincially in participation with all other provincial Gov ernme nts and conduc ted by the Cadham Lab, a study which had been initiated, discussed fu lly with all the major participants in the AIDS question to assure accuracy of information, utility of inf orma tion, absolute pr otection of confidentiality, so that the nation of Canada can get on with activities, policies, planning to curtail any further spread of HIV in this nation.

Patient Notification Mr. Gulzar Cheema (The Maples): Mr. Speaker, it is interesting that the Minister has not read his own report. He has signed the report dated the 29 th, 19 90. Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of Health tell us why the patients are not being inf ormed, those patients who are participating in this study? Can he tell us why this is being done? Hon. Donald Orchard (M inister of Health): Mr. Speaker, with what they call a blind seroprevalence study, no on e-re sear ch er, pati ent, or anyone-knows the identity of the source of the blood sample tested.

That is the whole purpose of a blind seroprev alence study. lt is a national initiative with the guidelines designed, as I have indicated in the answer, my first response, nationally with participation by all provinces, with participation by all professional and interest groups to assure confide ntiality. No one knows whose blood sample is being tested. lt is an attempt through a blind study parameter to identify how prevalent HI V is in the general population of Canada. lt is designed as a public healt h measur e in full co-ope ration with all provinces and the national Government.

Surely, my honourable friend would not want to have Manitoba not participate in such a study of importance of the disease AIDS. Patient Participation Mr. Gulzar Cheema (The Maples): Mr. Speaker, the issue here is whether the patients are being notified or not. We are not dealing with the flu or one illness, we are dealing with the HIV infec tion, a very serious matter. We are having a study, and if you are not going to inform the patient, in the long run if they cannot benefit what is the use of this study? Can the Minister of Health tell us if the ethics are being fol lowed ?

How many Manitobans have already participated in the study? How many more will be abused without their knowledge? Hon. Donald Orchard (M inister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, with all the respect I can muster for my honourable fr iend, the doctor, surely my honourable friend understands the diffe rence between the voluntary testing prog ram which Manitoba has offered through the Cadham Lab for approximately five or six year s so that individuals who are concerned as to whether they personally carry the HIV antibody can go in for testing on a completely confidential basis in a patient-doctor relationship that they enjoy complete confidentiality within, as com pared to a na tio nal blind study on seroprevalence on discarded blood samples with no identification as to source .

My honourable friend does not understand the difference between those two tests. I regret that.

November 9, 1990 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 985 Rural Economy Long-Range Strategy Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (S wan River): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Rural Development. Throughout rural Manitoba we see communities suffe ring and busi nesses closing down in communities such as Virden, Ste. Rose and many other com munities. In particular we see farm machinery dealerships closing down because of the crisis in the agricultural community. My question to the Minister is: What is his long-range strategy to deal with the crisis in the rural community? Hon.

Ja ck Penner (M inister of Rural Development): Mr. Speak er, the Honourable Member for Swan River certainly indicates correctly that there is an economic problem in much of rural Manitoba. Many of the communities are sufferi ng because of the downturn in the agricultural sector. Many of the machinery dealers are affected , as she says, by the downturn in prices of grains and other commodities.

We recognize that. 1t is our intention to encourage the producti on , on a secondar y manner, the establishmen t of industry in rural Manitoba to produce goods out of the primary products that farm ers are good at producing. Up to now we have adopted policies in Canada largely based on the box-it, ship-it mentality. lt is our belief that we should encourage industries to establish there.

We have reached an agree me nt with the fed eral Government- a $90 million agreement-that will encourage those centres that currently are industrial centres to expand and to provide them wi th infrastructure capital to help them expand their indus trial base and to en courage thos e communities that have the capacity to establish industries to develop infr astructures that would allow them to do that. I believe that we are well on our way- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, unfortunately that strategy is only for southern Manitoba.

Assistant Water Resources Manager Position Vacancy Ms. Rosa nn Wowchuk (S wan River): This Government's whole policy of dealing with the rural problem had a lot of emphasis on decentralization. Decentralization was supposed to revitalize the rural community. My ques tion to the Min ister is: Wh at has happened to the position of an assistant water resource manager sche duled for Dau phin, a position that has long been promised and much needed within the Parkland? When will this position be fi lled? Hon. Ja ck Penner (M inister of Rural Developme nt): Well, Mr.

Speaker, I am surprised at the Honourable Member's question. The previous administration had many years where they could have established a dece ntralization program . However, they chose not to do that. They did not recogn ize the need in rural Manitoba. As soon as we took office, we indicated clearly our desire to encourage and establish better com munica tions and access to Go ver nmen t through our dece ntralization process . w�. are putting into rural Manitoba better than 700 positions, and hopefu lly that will be achieved by the end of 19 92. Position LocaUon Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (S wan River): Mr.

Speaker, my question to the Minister addressed a specific position, a position of assistant water resour ce ma nager. Why was this po sitio n changed -w hich was ori ginally scheduled for Dauphin-to Roblin-Russell when the bulk of the work is in Swan River and The Pas? I fe el that it is very inefficient to be moving it to Roblin? Why has it changed- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Ho n. Ja ck Pe nner (M inister of Rural Development): Mr. Speaker, first of all, through the dece ntralization process it was determined to establish positi ons in areas where they were needed most.

The position that the Honourable Member questions falls within the Department of Natural Resources. I will ask the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns) to provide the Hono urable Member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk) with that information when he has it. * (1 040)

986 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA November 9, 1990 St. James-Asslnlbola School Division Independent Assessment Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach). Mr. Speaker, insofar as school boards are finding it increa singly dif fi cult to meet co sts due to Gov ernment underfundi ng; insofar as problems have arisen in at least one school division, namely St.

Jam es-Ass inib oia; in sofar as the same superintendent of this school division is also the individual conducting the Government inquiry into educati on finance, will the Min ister have an independent third party assess the situation at the St. James-A ssiniboia School Division and perhaps other divisions if necessary? Hon. Clayton Ma nness (Acting Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I would like to indicate to the House today that a third party, in the name of the Provincial Auditor, is being asked to do an audit with respect to enrollment numbers in the St. James school division.

Goods and Services Tax Educational Texts Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Mr. Speaker, in addition, the Mulroney Government is charging the GST on books . Wha t assis tance will th is Gove rnment offer to school divisions to protect them from the cost of the GST being passed on to the local taxpayers? Hon. Clayton Manness (Acting Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speak er, my understanding is that educational books are free from the GST. Now there is some difficulty in the demarcation. I am aware of that, but in general my understanding is that educational items within the public school system are exempt. Mr.

Chomlak: Mr. Speaker, I think that the costs are inequitable and they are being passed on. My final supplementary is: With respect to the university students and the cost of the GST on their books, what assistance will this Government offer to university students whose costs may go up as much as $1 00 a year as a result of the GST? Mr. Manness: lt is probably a better question to ask the Minister during his Estimates. He is of course in his Estimates right now.

I can indicate that the Govern ment of course would like to see the methodology and indeed the analysis that would show whereby students are indeed paying as much as $1 00 because of the application of the GST. The Government would be very interested in seeing that type of analysis. Manitoba Unemployment Rate Comparison Mr. Ben Svelnson (La Verendrye): Mr. Speaker, the employment figures are usually something that is foremost on most peoples minds, for those who are unemployed and also for those trying to better themselves in their jobs.

Could the First Minister indicate to the House the most recent unemployment figure and how that figu re compares to the rest of Cana da? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh I Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I appreci ate the question from the Member for La Verendrye. The fact of the matter is that Members opposite do not want to ask questions that have to do with good news. I have to indicate, as was projected by the Minister of Rnance (Mr.

Manness) in his budget, that there are some indications in this month's unemployment figures that Manitoba is outperform ing the national average with respect to various elements. Mr. Speaker, the fact is that we are in a position where accord ing to Stats Canada our unemployment level is the lowest in the country. We would like it to be better, but we are continuing to work on that. The provisions that are in the budget will indeed work toward that. According to Statistics Canada, our employment has increased by some 12 ,000 persons between October '89 and October '90.

That is a 2.4 percent increase in employment in this province. Indeed our unemployment rate- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. Point of Order Mrs. Unda Mclntosh (Asslnlbola): I am having difficulty hearing the answer. the First Minister is giving, and I would appreciate your calling the Members to order so that I may hear. Thank you. ·(interjection)·

November 9, 1990 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA 987 Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Chair is also having great difficulty in hearing the response. Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, according to Statistics Cana da the unem ploym en t rate , on a seasonally-adjusted basis, decreased four-tenths of 1 percent to 6.6 percent-as I said, the lowest in the country. Our labour for ce, on a year-to-date basis of course, has increased by 1. 2 percent, which is much better than the national average- 7,000 persons, and that is good news.

All of this good news is indications that we will be outperfo rming the national economy in times of recession. We would like itto be better. We wish that we did not have the national recession, but indeed we will work hard to continue to improve these fi gures. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. NON -POLIT ICAL STATEMENTS Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): I wonder if I might have an opportunity for a non-political statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable First Minister have leave to make a non-political statement? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Mr. Fllmon: Mr.

Speaker, as all Hono urable Members know, Sunday is Remembrance Day, the day we set aside each year to re member, with an outpouring of affection and tribute, those who gave their lives, in the service of our country, in time of war. We must continue to remember, Mr. Speaker, lest we forget the horrors of the two World Wars and the Korean War and the need to work for peace in the world.

We remember not only to pay tribute to those who fe ll in battle but those who fought and survived, those who we wish to thank and salute for the sacrifices they made and for the contributions they made to the preservation of peace and democracy throughout the world. We must take the lead from those who have survived in our remembrance as we resolve to do all in our power to ke ep the "f lame of freed om" buming so that the war-dead shall not have died in vain. There are tw o im portant aspec ts to the Remembrance Day celebrations, Mr. Speaker.

The first is to remember and to honour the memory of those who fought and died in order that all of us,· sitting in this Chamber and throughout democratic countries in the world, can enjoy the benefits of the society in which we live. Last April, I had the opportunity to be at Sal Wan Bay cemetery in Hong Kong and it was a very moving experience.

As we looked out through that cemetery-it is on a hillside so you can see the entire cemetery from the entrance point-row, upon row, upon row of monuments indicating the death of Canadian soldiers in the defence of Hong Kong in December of 19 41 . 1t was a very moving experience because we had to think about the individuals involved, most of them very, very young people, who were taken away, halfway around the Earth to defend a country that they had very little connection with, and yet they did it, lovingly, willingly, sacrif icing in huge numbers their lives as they went, as it tumed out, to be slaughtered in the defence of Hong Kong, a member of the Commonwealth. lt was moving both because those monuments did represent individuals, some of whom we could relate to.

I know that tears came to our eyes when we found the gravestone of the brother of Janice' s next door neighbours as she was growing up, and realized the significance to one individual fam ily of that person's loss. Many of the markers had no names on them and even that, too, has another significance , the factthat there were so many who losttheir lives and, in some cases, because of the horrible deaths that they faced, they could not even be identified. The Winnipeg Grenadiers, of course, were the major force involved in the defence of Hong Kong and they are remembered with great respect in Hong Kong today.

In fact, that picture of us placing the wreath at Sal Wan Bay was on page 3 of the South China Morni ng Post because of the significance that they place on their relationship with Manitoba and Canada as a result of that. So, Mr. Speaker, we should always remember because theirs was the ultimate sacrif ice, and we are led in remembrance, as I said earlier, by those who fought and survived the various wars in which Canada was involved.

Finally, of course, we must use the celebration of Remembrance Day as a recommittal of our lives to ensure that we will always work for peace-peace in our country and peace throughout the world. * (1 050)

988 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA November 9, 1990 Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Chamber for leave to make a non-political statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member have unanimous consent? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Mr. Doer: I would like to join with the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) and Members of our caucus on Remembrance Day this week end, in terms of remembering the ones that have given the ultimate sacrifice, their life, or their person, during many of the wars that have preceded our time in the world.

I think, when we talk about Remembrance Day, it is important not only to celebrate, or remember, the general issues of war and peace, but it also conjures up ideas of a personal nature at this time. I think of my parents always listening to Vera Lynn and talking about the war on Remembrance Day ; it usually was something at our home. I also think of some of our relatives who were locked up or imprisoned and barely survived during that confl ict that the First Minister mentioned, in terms of a prisoner of war during the last war for the defense of Hong Kong in that dispute.

We, on this side, and all Members of this Chamber, must remember the sacrifices that our forefathers and foremothers made in the defence of liberty and democracy, Mr. Speaker. lt is a year ago now, a year ago this weekend, when the Berlin Wall came down, I believ e, and many things are changing in Eastern Europe. That makes us fe el somewhat safer, in terms of the peace for ourselves and for our children.

However, as we speak, we have a very serious potential conflict in the Middle East, and now we know Manitoba people are being affected by that, potentially called up, potentially going over to that troubled spot in the Middle East. I just hope that we can avoid conflict, can avoid war, and that we can avoid the carnage that comes from war and that we can work with the United Nations for a peaceful resolution of that potential conflict in the Middle East.

So we, too, join with all the veterans and the fa milies on Remembrance Day in remembering, and we, too, remember the personal stories that are so important to all of us on this very important day and we pray for peace in our world in all spots. Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Could I have leave for a non-political statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member have unanimous consent? Agreed. Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr. Speaker, we are speaking today about Remembrance Day, and I think all of us have our own fa mily and personal remembrances.

I want to focus today on not only those who lost their lives in battle, but those who lost their lives when they thought they were safe from such loss of life. This week Hugh Macle nnan died. He wrote a very significant book called "Barometer Rising.n "Barometer Risingn was about the Halifax explosion in 19 17 when a munitions ship collided with a tanker. Ten thousand Haligonians were injured; 1 ,000 of them lost their lives. My grandfather was one of those; he was injured by a piece of the ship and because there was no medical attention he died of gangrene nine months later.

He left a wife and 10 children, the eldest of which was my fa ther. My grandmother died shortly thereafter. My father said she looked at the responsibilities of raising 1 0 children and had a heart attack. I do not know what was the actual cause of her death, but she left my father, as the eldest of those 1 0 children. At 19 that is quite a responsibility; the youngest child was six. In World War 11 that young man, then six, died when HMCS Ottawa was blown up on the high seas.

Those are the kinds of things I think each and every one of us can relate to on Remembrance Day, but our children and our grandchildren are not going to be able to do that in the same way because they will not have that knowledge and that information base. That is why we have watched the change and the focus of Remembrance Day often more and more on peace and how we can assure that our children and our gr andchildr en liv e in a peacefu l environ ment, and how we can prevent not only young men and young women being killed on a battlefield, but how the civilian population can also be protected.

That is what is so terrifying to so many of us when we liste n to the hyperbole around the Ir aqi controversy at the present time, because we know that this war will be a war which , if it takes place, will involve great civilian loss. I am reminded today of the poem by John McCrae, "In Flanders Fields,n that we all know so well, but John McCrae wrote that when he was treating victims of poison gas in 19 15 . We must remember that when we watch news photos of people being dressed in protective gear because of

November 9, 1990 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 989 the type of warfare that we now may find ourselves exposed to. I ask all Canadians, indeed all citizens of the world , to rededicate themselves on Sunday to peaceful resolution of disputes man to man, woman to woman. HOUSE BUSINESS Hon. Clayton Manness (G overnment House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I rise on House business. I would like to announce that Tuesday at 1 0 a. m., the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources will sit to consider the 19 88, 19 89, and 19 90 Annual Reports of the Manitoba Hazardous Waste Management Corpora tion.

I announced yesterday that also at that time the Standing Committee on Economic Development would sit to consider Moose Lake Loggers, Channel Ar ea Logger s and Com mu nit y Econ omic Development Fund. I would also like to indic ate that Thursday , November 15 , 10 a.m. in the morning the Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources will sit to consider the 19 89 and 19 90 Annual Report of Manitoba Hydro.

That evening , November 15 at 8 p.m ., the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources will sit to consider the 19 87, 19 88, 19 89, and 19 90 Annual Reports of the Manitoba Energy Authority. Also Thursday evening at 8 p.m., the Standing Committee on Econom ic Development will sit to consider the 19 88 -1 989 Auditor's Repo rt - Consol idated Financial Statements of A. E. McKenzie Co. Ltd. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Clayton Manness (G overnment House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, I propose to call second readings, Bill S, The Business Practices Act, Bill 12 , The Labour Relations Amendment Act and fol lowing that, debate on second readings on Bills 15 , 16 , and 17 . If indeed there is some considerable time after that, I would propose at that time to call the motion to go into Interim Supply. CommiHee Changes Mr. George Hlckes (Point Douglas): Mr. Speaker, may I have leave to make a committee change? I move, seconded by Burrows (Mr.

Martindale), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Economic Development be amended as fol lows: Oscar Lathlin for Jim Maloway, Steve Ashton for Len Evans. Mr. Speaker: lt was moved by the Honourable Member for Point Douglas (Mr . Hickes), and seconded by the Honourable Member for Flin Aon (Mr. Storie). Agreed. * (1 10 0) Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimll) : I move, seconded by the Member for Niakwa (Mr. Reimer), that the com position of the Stan ding Comm ittee on Economic Developmentfor Tuesday, November 13 , be amended as follows : Downey for Enns, Dacquay for McAipine and Helwer for Ernst.

I move, seconded by the Member for Niakwa, that the com position of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources for Tuesday, November 13 , be amended as fol lows: Vodrey for Render, and Orchard for Neuf eld. Mr. Speaker: Agreed? Agreed. SECOND READINGS BILL 6- THE BUSINE SS PRACTICES ACT Hon. Edward Connery (M inister of Co-operative, Consumer and Corporate Affairs): I mo ve , seconded by the Minister of Labour (Mr. Praznik), that Bill 6, The Business Practices Act;

Loi sur les pratiques commerciales, be now read a second time and referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Connery: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to read for second reading Bill 6, The Business Practices Act. Legislation, like wine, improves with age, and I am happy to say that this Bill is no exception. Over the past summer the department has continued to consult with business and consumer organizations, and we have worked hard to find a good balance between the concerns of business and the needs of consumers. While last year's Bill was good, we believe this Bill is even better. Mr.

Speaker, let me just tell the Members of the efforts that have been put into this Bill by a large number of people. We had representation on a committee, meeting all of them atthe same time. We had members of both the Manitoba and Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce. We had the Canadian

990 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA November 9, 1990 Federation of Independent Business. We had the Better Busi ness Bur eau. We had the Retail Merchants Association. We had the Consumers' Association and the Manitoba Seniors' Association. This is the first time that legislation has ever been developed with all people that are involved having some input to develop the legislation. The previous Government, who operated for seven and a half years in this province, never ever consul ted with the consumers; especially the senio rs were not even known to that group of people.

I can say with all honesty and satisfaction that every group interested in this has had input into the Bill and finds it an acceptable Bill. Mr. Speaker, The Business Practices Act will provide better protection for both the victims of unf air practices and for the substantial majo rity of Man itoba busin ess people who cond uct their business in a reputable way. We have all heard the saying, one bad apple can spoil the barrel. Well, business pr actices legis lation is designed to specific ally deal with the unscrupulous sellers or bad apples. In short, Mr.

Speaker, its main purposes are to ide ntif y decep tive prac tices used by some businesses in the promotion and sale of consumer goods and services; provide means of preventing decep tive or abusive practices from occurr ing; remedy consumer losses resulting from these practices; and protect legitimate businesses from competitors who use deceptive or abusive practices to compete unf airly. The need to protect businesses and consumers from unfai r business practices is not a recent dev elopm ent. Pr evious ad minis tra tions have considered the legislation. Mr.

Speaker, let me say that this Bill initially got its start somewhere around 19 75. By the time the previous administration came into Gove rnment around 19 81 , this Bill was in a position to be seriously considered to protect the consumers of Manitoba. I think there are six or seven oth er provinces that already have had legislation in place. Now, when they are in Opp ositi on, the New Dem ocra tic Par ty likes to say tha t they are concerned about the consumers of Manitoba. Yet, wh at did they do when they wer e in powe r? Absolutely nothing.

They tinkered with a few little pieces of amendments to legislation, such as the Trade Practices Act, which was done strictly in a political motivation way. Mr.

Speaker, let me tell you what other pieces of consumer legislation we have introduced in the two and a half years that we have been in power: amendments to The Consumer Protection Act ; a very major improvement to that protection Act for door-to-door selling-one of the big ones, of course, in that Act was increasing the number of waiting days from four to seven- amendments to The Insurance Act, major amendments to The Securities Act , amendm ents to the real estate Act , a prearranged fune ral securities Act to protect people's money.

The Gov ernment has brou ght in both compensation plans for property, casualty and life insurance companies. We also signed, by the Honour able Minister of Just ice, the Member for Brandon West (Mr. McCr ae), The Information Sharing Agreement for Financial Institutions. That was signed on behalf of Manitoba by the Minister of Jus tice so that we could share information to ensure that consumers would be protected by knowing what was happening in other provinces. Mr.

Speaker, I think this speaks volumes of the concern that this Gove rnmen t has for the consumers of Manitoba, unlike the previous NDP Government who spoke lots but had little action, for whatever reason, I do not know, but would do nothing on behalf of the consumers of Manitoba. As we enter the marketplace, Mr. Speaker, of the 19 90s, the need for such

an Act is clearly greater than ever before . As the number and complexity of consumers' goods and services continue to multiply rapidly, consumers have to rely more heavily upon the representations made by business. At the same time, a growing number of vulnerable consumers, such as seniors and new Canadians, suffer losses through various marketplace abuses. Mr. Speaker, once again we have, on a voluntary program , people that go out to consumers to explain legis lation and to explain their rights in the marketplace.

For the first time, I am pleased to say that our depar tment is now focusing on new Canadians who do not know the legislation and maybe do not speak the language as well. What we are encouraging is people from cultural groups to get an understanding of the legislation and then go to their communities, to their various cultural groups, to explain the Canadian legislation, the

November 9, 1990 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA 991 Manitoba legislation, to them so that they will be protected in the marketplace, to understand what rights they have, and what questions to ask to ensure that they are treated fair ly. This is the first time that this has ever been done for those new Canadians. lt could have been done a long time ago, but was never initiated by the Party who prete nds-a nd I empha siz e the wor d •pretends"-to be supportive of consumers and supposedly the average Manitoban. Mr.

Speaker, we cannot continue to ignore the increa sing undenia ble presence of a cr iminal element in the marketplace. ! must say the comment of the Member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak), the Critic for Workers Compe nsation, and his critique of the Bill in itself is criminal. Perhaps the best way to illustrate the need is to give you a few examples of the types of activities tha t are taking place.

We have all seen the headlines: ·con man tightens screws on seniors"; Swindler s str ip elderly wom an of sav ings•; "Door-to-door sales seam nets $70,000.00.• The previous Government chose to ignore these concerns and did nothing until they came into Oppo siti on, and all of a sudden be came environmentally-or consumer conscious. Well, Mr. Speaker, I made the mistake of •environmentally conscious." I can say the same thing there .

They have always been great talkers but very poor at acting. lt has taken the Conse rvative Government to put some of these things in and to put the teeth in place. -(interjection)- Yes, and the Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Pr aznik) says , gr eat ac tors. Prete nder s , actors- they put on a good face and a good sham, but really took no action to protect the consumers. • (1 110 ) Mr. Speaker, allow me to relate two stories to you, and maybe you have heard them. In a rural Manitoba town, an elderly gentleman who lived alone could not say no to fast talking, high-pressure salesmen.

These salesmen persuaded the senior to buy vinyl siding, notjustfor the exterior of the house, but also for the interior of his house. Altogether, he paid out $1 6,550 for im proveme nts to a 500 square foot home. In ano th er case, an elderly woman was systematically victimized by door-to-door home improvement salesmen until her bank account of $70,000 was exhausted. These are the sorts of things the previous NDP Government was prepared to allow to happen, and I say, shame.

In seven months, this woman signed 24 different contracts with six different door-to-door fir ms, paying out a total of almost $71 ,000 for improvements that should have cost about $1 5,000.00. Mr. Spe ak er, these cases are cle arly unacceptable, but in order to drive my point home, allow me to provide you with another blatant home improvement seam. A senior was approached by two home renovators. The renovators asked if they could check the siding on her home. After looking the house ove r, they informed her that they suspected moisture problems in the attic.

Once in the attic, they wet the insulation and presented it to the homeowner. They told her that if it were not removed and the rafters re-enforced, the ceiling would collapse. Consequently, the woman signed two contracts for a total of $6,500 .00. A suspicious neighbour contacted the Consumers Bureau. The bureau inspected the home and established the repairs were not needed and that the work done by the renovators should have only cost $600.00. Mr. Sp eaker, that is what the previous Gove rnment was prepared to allow to happen to consumers because of their inactivity. They knew the Bill was there.

They knew the need for the Bill. They talked a lot and did absolutely nothing, allowing people to rip off those who are not maybe as able to look after themselves. Mr. Speaker, staff of the Consumers Bureau have been placed in situations never experienced before, rang ing from total disregard for licensing and non-compliance, to threats on their physical safety. Recently, two unscrupulous direct sellers were sentenced to prison term s for fr aud. One, a two-and-a-half-year sentence; the other got three years for fraud and also for threatening physical harm to a Consumers Bureau off icer. Mr.

Speaker, the examples I have just given all per ta in to the home impr ov ement industry. Howev er, pr oblems resulting from the unfai r business practices occur within the automobile industry, dress shops, appliance repair, home alarm systems, health clubs, travel firms and, in short, with pr acti cally all types of business se llin g to consumers. Mr. Speaker, the existing law is inadequate for ef f ectiv ely and effi cie ntly dealing with unf air business practices. There are several agencies that

992 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA November 9, 1990 become involved in attempting to prevent and correct proble ms that res ult from dec epti ve info rmation and abuse activity. These agencies work closely together and co-ope ratively. They include Communications Branch of Co-operatives, Consumer and Corporate Aff airs, the Consumers' Association of Canada and the Consumers Bureau and the police, Consumer and Corpor ate Affairs of Canada, the courts, the Better Business Bureau. However, each of these agencies is limited in its ability to prevent and correct problems.

With the Communications Branch and the CAC , several efforts are made to prevent problems. For example, information on how to avoid deceptive information and abusive activities is provided to consumers, and a consumer education course is being developed for use in high schools. This is another first, that we are bringing in a pilot run to educate students right from the beginning. We are working to educate seniors and the average citizen, but we are also wanting to move at the school level so that students learn right from the beginning not to be taken.

However, there are technical limitations to the effec tivenes s of consu mer education and information in preventing problems. For example, some consumers are no t reached by advertisements. Consumers' inform ation may not be retained for long. Consu mer education and information does not pr ev ent in corr ect and decep tive information or attempts at abusive acti vity . Apar t from licensing req uiremen ts regar ding sellers, Manitoba's main consumer legislation, The Consumer Protection Act, lacks the effective means for dealing with deceptive and abusive practices.

With most problems involving unfair acts, the Consumers Bureau is limited to resolving these problems through mediation. If mediation fa ils, the consumer's only recourse is to go to court. Mr. Speaker, while The Consumer Protection Act came in at the beginning of the Schreyer years, the Act was written by Duff Robl in's Government prior to the Schreyer Government coming into place. So that Act was wr itte n by the Co nser vative Government, and fortunately Mr. Schreyer had the sensitivity and the wisdom to put that Act into legislation. Here is an example, Mr. Speaker.

We believe a particular car dealer used to scan the want ad

section of the newspapers, looking for consumers who were selling their cars. The dealer would phone the consumer and say that he sold used cars and that he would like to sell the consumer's car. The consu mer s wer e told that the dealer had a showroom and would even place ads promoting the sale of their car. When consumers brought their cars to the dealer, a selling price was established. Consumers were assured that they would receive the agreed amount, that a dealer's fee would be added to the asking price of the car.

Car owners, many of whom had a limited ability to understand the English language, were asked to sign a contract, but the dealer did not give them a copy of it. The car owners later discovered that the written contract stipulated that there was a $90 a month charge for leaving the car on the dealer's lot, plus a one time $50 document fe e. The consumer could only get his car back by paying the dealer's fees stated in the contract. The consumers complained to the Consumers Bureau that the dealer made no effort to sell the car or advertise the availability of the car. Mr.

Speaker, this is a good examp le of a deceptive act. The consumer is led to believe that there will be no cost to pay to have the car sold, but later discovers that the dealer fai led to disclose the documentation fee as well as the storage fe e. These are two important considerations the consumer would have take n into account before signing the agreement. This example also illustrates abusive activity in that the dealer appears to be taking advantage of a consumer having a limited ability to understand the English language.

While the Members over opposite talk about the multicultural aspect of this province and the needs of people who ar e not able to tak e care of themselves, they did absolutely nothing to protect new Canadians and those who had not yet mastered the English language to the extent that swif ties could tak e advantage of them.-(interjection)- The Member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) chirps from a back seat, but he was a Member of that Gov ernmen t that could have introduced legislation and did absolutely nothing, yet talks about the caring of their ND P Government.

Their lack of doing anything speaks volumes for the concerns that the NDP have for the consumers in a real way. They are considered chattel, chattel in the sense that they are votes, and as long as they get the votes, that is suffi cient for the NDP. Well, I can

November 9, 1990 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 993 tell you, it is not suff icient for the Conservative Party of this Gover nment. Mediation attempts by the bureau fa iled because the dealer denied having implied that there should be no cost for selling the car. -(interjection)- The Member for Thompson (Mr Ashton) keeps chirping . I guess I would be embarrassed if I were he, having sat in an NDP Govern ment that did nothing for the consumers and are very embarrassed over what we as a Government are doing in the sincere protection of consumers, not talking about it, but acting.

The Cons umer Protection -(interjection)- The Member for Thompson says the Bill was gutted. Mr. Speaker, I will get to that point where we will talk about the

article put in the paper by the Member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway). We will talk about that. He obviously has not read the Bill -(interjection) Eimwood, yes. I said Elmwood. list en. The Member has not read the legislation and does not understand it, but we will get to that. * (1 12 0) The Consumer Protection Act is limited in its measures for correcti ng problems caused by unf air practices. The Act provides no means of enabling the bureau to stop unfair practices, such as misleading advertising before they have resulted in consumers incurring losses and before they have a negative impact on honest competitors.

Although The Consumer Protectiion Act has certain licensing requirements that can be quite broad, depending on the extent of the need to regulate the activity of individual sellers, they are nonetheless limited to the fo llowing ways: They apply to direct sellers only and, therefore, do not apply to the vast majority of consumer transactions in Manitoba. They do not provide a broad range of remedies as would The Business Practices Act.

For example, they do not enable the bureau to seek a court order to freeze a problem company's assets to avoid consumer losses that exceed the bond posted by the seller, nor to obtain a court order injunction to stop the unfair activities of a direct seller. Although the Bureau can attempt to solve a particular complaint, it has no authority to stop the business from continuing to afflict other consumers with the same unf air business practice. Mr.

Speaker, there are four other agencies that become inv olv ed in atte mpting to deal with problems resulting from unf air business practices: the police, the Consumers and Corporate Affairs of Canada, the cour ts, and the Better Busi ness Bureau. However, as I have mentioned earlier, they are also limited in their ability to protect and correct problems. Mr.

Speaker, the police will investigate and lay charges regarding activities that constitute fra ud; however, the RCMP and the City of Winnipeg indi cate that there are lim itations to the effe ctive ness of th is means of deal ing with deceptive and abusive practices. For example, fraud under the Criminal Code refers to a relatively narrow range of activities. In addition, it is necessary to prove intent on the part of a person, as opposed to the business itself, in order to convict a business of fraud .

Thus, if intent cannot be established, a business may not be held responsible for deceptive activity, even if that activity resulted in losses for many consumers. Furthermore, on a conviction of fraud, there is no assurance that the consumer will receive redress for losses suffe red. Consumer and Corporate Affairs Canada will prosecute businesses for deceptive activities under the competition Act, particularly if such activities are having a major impact on the competitiveness of the market, especially if the business is operating nationally.

While the competitions Act does help to deter incorrect and misleading information, Consumer and Corporate Affairs Canada indicates that there are limitations. For example, the Act applies to very specific activities and does not, for example, apply to abuse of vulnerable consumers. In addition, the focus of the legislation is to stop major threats to the com petitiv enes s of mar kets as opposed to correc ting losses between individual consumers and businesses.

The Small Claims Court and other courts provide a means through which consumers can seek to recove r losses resulti ng from dec eptiv e and unc onscionable activiti es, however, there are several widely recognized limitations to the Small Claims Court and court system in general. For exam ple, desp ite rela tiv e inf or mality, many consumers are intimidated by the Small Claims Court and even more so the higher courts. When one party appears with legal counsel at the Small Claims Court, he/she gains an advantage over the other party if that party appears on his/her own.

The party losing the case in Small Claims Court will often appeal the decision in the hope that the cost of obtaining a lawyer and the formality of the higher courts will cause the other party to abandon

994 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA November 9, 1990 the case . The cost of taking an action to a higher cour t fr equently exceeds the amount of loss involved, especially if the case is complicated. Consumers who win cases at the Small Claims Court may still not recover their losses due to the busine ss having no assets , the diff iculty of garnisheeing income and taking other enfor cement measures, and/or the business having fled the province. As well, the Small Claims Court is unable to stop a business from continuing to engage in a deceptive or abusive activity. Mr.

Speaker, can you tell me how much time I have left? -(interjection)- I appreciate the- Mr. Speaker: Eighteen minutes. Mr. Connery: How much? Mr. Speaker : The Honourable Min iste r has approximately 18 minutes. Mr. Connery: Eighteen minutes? Thank you. The Leader of the Opposition, the Member for Concord ia (Mr. Doer) applauds the speech, and rightly he should, because I think the Bill is a very long-awaited Bill and one long overdue. ! appreciate the NDP Leader's support in this Bill. Mr.

Speaker, the Better Business Bureau will advise consumers on whether or not individual businesses have satisfactor ily dealt with any prior compl aints, and will also attempt to resolv e consu mer complai nts through conciliation and arbitration. Members of the BBB are precommitted to addressing consumer complaints, and if they do not, they prejudice their membership status.

However, if a particular business is engaging in a deceptive or abusive activity, and if that business is not a member or does not value its membership, the BBB is unable to recover any associated consumer losses or stop the business from continuing with the activity. The BBB, thoug h, records the businesses as being unsatisfactory and would provide that informati on to any inquiring consumers. Mr. Speaker, the vast majority of businesses operate honestly and do not create problems. However, there are some that engage in deceptive and abusive activities. These few businesses cause four main types of problems.

One, they cause a mlsallocation of resources in the marketplace by causing consumers to purchase goods and services they would not purch ase if they had co rrect informat ion. Two, they cause losses for individual consumers. Three, they cause their competitors to lose busi ness. Fou r, they cr eate a nega tive competitive environment in that honest businesses come under pressure to engage in similar activities in order to stay in business. These problems are occ urring, Mr.

Speaker, partly because of the limited ability of consumer education and information to prevent problems, partly becau se many activities fal l outside of the Cr iminal Code and Competition Act and partly because existing remedies such as mediation and the cour ts are ineffective or too costly and intimidating for many consumers to use. If the marketplace is to work more effective ly, changes in the law are needed. In attempting to improve business and consumer protection regarding unfair practices there are two legislative options available to Governmen t.

One is to develop separ ate licensing and registration legislation for each industry or type of business capable of unfair practices. This would virtually mean licensing all businesses. The Act is to develop an omnibus type of Act that focuses specifically on unfair practices regardless of the type of business. Clearly, the relative simplicity and eff iciency of the second approach is preferable by both business and Govern ment. ltwill avoid the paper burden and other proble ms that would be associ ated with the licensing and registration of each and eve ry business.

In taking the omnibus type of approach, The Business Practices Act would contain several provisions aimed specifical ly at unfair practices. Some of these provisions are as fol lows: the Act would apply to most goods and services used by consumers -(interjection)- ! see the Member from Thompson (Ashton) is still chirpin g away, having a good time. -(interjection) He would like the speech tabled, Mr.

Speaker, but I am not sure that he would take the time to read it, and secondly I do not know if he would have the capabilities of understanding it. lt would enable preventative action to be taken to stop an unf air activity before it results in a consumer incurring losses. lt provides for several powers to both prevent and correct situations involving unfai r activities including, cease and desist orders, orders to freeze as sets , authority to neg otiate on assurance of voluntary compliance, authority to undertake civil actions on behalf of vulnerable consumers when such consumers are not in a position to protect their own interests. lt would

November 9, 1990 LEG ISLAT IVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 995 provide consumers with a specific cause of civil action where losses have been incurred as a result of a deceptive or abusive practice. Finally, where prosecution becomes necessary, the Act provides for subs tantial fines and impr isonment com mensu rate with the severit y of some marketplace abuses that are occurring. Of course, Mr. Speaker, all decisions and actions by the Director of Business Practices will carry full rights of appeal to the courts.

An investigation would not be undertaken unless the director believes, on reasonable and proba bly gr ounds , that a cont raventi on of The Business Practices Act existed. Also, when undertaking an investigation, any request by the director for a business to provide information would have to be acco mpanied by reasonable explanation. The confidential nature of the information provided would be respected.

Although the Act provides strong measures to deal with the more severe unf air activities, it must be recognized that the vast majority of Manitoba businesses are fair and are scrupulous. • (1 13 0) lt should also be noted that the Bureau has had great success in mediating satisfactory resolution to many consum er problems and mediation will continue to be the most frequently used tool. However, where the situation warrants, as in examples given earlier, Manitobans must have the means to take swift and effective action to stop marketplace abuses.

Manitobans must have a way to re medy consu mer losses and to protect businesses from unfair competition. Mr. Speaker, part of the Department of Consumer and Cor porate Affa irs' mission is to foster an efficient marketplace. In many ways, The Business Practices Act exemplifies the pursuit of this mission. lt seeks to identify activities that are unacceptable and it enables them to be stopped before they harm businesses or consumers. At the same time, it will help remedy consumer losses caused by these activities.

Consumers will be able to more freq uently rely on representations being made by businesses, have unf air activity stopped before the consumer losses occur and have more effective means of obtaining redress where losses are indeed occurred. Businesses are expected to benefit by: a.) having a clear indication of what constitutes an unf air activity; b.) incurring fewer losses as a result of unfair activities by competitors; and c.) having better reputations, especially in those industries where unfair activities have occurred.

However, business practices law will not present magic solutions to all the problems which can arise in this province's marketplace. lt is in fact another means that the Consumers Bureau can utilize in its attack on unfair practices like those I have described today. While the Act is expected to greatly improve the bureau's ability to deal with unfair practices, it will not, as would not any legislation, end all unf air activities, nor will it end the need for consumers to shop cautiously, take their own court action, or convince the courts that a particular activity is unf air. In summation, Mr.

Speaker, business practices legislation is both a preventative and corrective approach directed at specific unfai r or abusive practices of individual sellers. Most businesses in Manitoba- will not be adverse ly affec ted. Only businesses that are not operating fa irly and who are creati ng serious marketplace probl ems for consumers and honest operating competitors need fear the legislation. As I have clearly illustrated, existing legislative and common law remedies are inadequate for deal ing with those pr oblems, stron ger, more effective remedies are called for.

The Business Practices Act attempts to provide these remedies, not by creating a licensing nightmare, but rather applying stro ng medicine to bad problems, regardless of the type of business creating those problems.

This Act will attempt to deal with those problems by identifyi ng and acting upon unf air practices before they cause harm , by giving consumers clearer means of obtaining redress, by providing broader powers to stop unfair activities and to act on behalf of wln erable consumers who are unable to protect their own interests, and by enabling the courts to impose hefty fines and prison terms where warranted by the severity of the action. Mr. Speaker, this legislation will directly benefit individual consumers and businesses. They will make the mark etplace work better.

Busi ness practices legislation offe rs innovative solutions and new remedies to some old problems. Existing legislation is limited and does not provide the

996 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA November 9, 1990 comprehensiv e consumer protection that we would like, or Manitobans deserve. Mr. Speaker, I read the paper this morning and I was reading an

article put in by the NDP Critic, the Member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway). He says, consumer protection Bill gutted, NDP says. He talks about the unconscionable Acts and the wor d •u nconscionable" being rem oved from the legislation. lf the critic, the Member for Elmwood, the representative of the New Democratic Party, would read

Section 3 of the legislation-! will see, Mr. Speaker, if I have a copy of that legislation with me. lt looks like I do not have it with me. Maybe I will be able to find one before I fin ish.

Section 3 of the legislation clearly is now much br oader than the pr evious definition of unconscionable acts. So where the Member says that it is being gutted, he talks about several areas where the provisions have been eliminated. If the Member knew, the Bill has been changed and rewritten and

Section 3 of the Bill, if anything, gives a broader power to the Consumers Bureau, to the director to ensure that those do not take place. Mr. Speaker, I thank the Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Praznik) for getting a copy of the Bill for me.

Section 3 says, "Taking advantage" and this is where we encompass all of the unconscionable acts. "lt is an unfa ir business practice for a supplier to take advantage of a consumer if the supplier knows or can reasonably be expected to know that the consumer is not in a position to protect the consumer's own business interests." Mr. Speaker, tha t is pre tty broad and all encompassing. There are not many things of an illegal nature that are not covered under

Section 3. We have been very careful that we do not leave loopholes in the legislation. All we do under

Section 3 is that we have to prove that someone has been taken advantage of. The legislation covers it very clearly. Unfortunately I will not be able to get a response, but I would ask the Member at some point in time, the Member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway) , to tell me what the diffe rence between unconscionable and taken advantage of really is. I do not think the Member really understands it. I do not think he cares. He got a headline and that was the intent of the Member for Elm wood. I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, if he was making a consumer transaction, the first person to be charged under this legislation would be the Member for Elmwood for putting in an

article of this-this is guttersnipe, guttersnipe stuff that he really just does not understand. He does not care. He just wants to get a headline, and I think that is really unfortunate that we have Members of this Legislature that would act in this case. He says, obviously they have a done a job on it in the backroom s-a job on it in the backrooms. Point of Order Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. Mr. Spea ker: The Honourable Member for Wellington, on a point of order. Ms. Barrett: I believe that the Honourable Member for Portage (Mr.

Cannery) was impugning motive, on behalf of the Honourable Member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway), in saying that he only put the item in the newspaper, which he has no control over in the first place, because he wanted a headline. I would ask that the Honourable Member for Portage withdraw the comment. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Acting Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Hon. Glen Cummlngs (Acting Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, the Member was refer encing the information that was put in the paper and not implying any more than the fact that this info rmation may not have been totally reflecting what was going on at the time. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member did not have a point of order. *** Mr. Connery: lt is interesting, Mr. Speaker, after any time the Member asks a question, or something comes up, he quickly goes trolling out amongst the news media but that is, I guess, irrevelant. He does go looking for news articles, Mr. Speaker, and he is very good at catching headlines, the Member is very good .

He says-a nd I want to really emphasize very clearly, when I talk about the despicable comments made by the Member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway) -obv iously they have done a job on it in the back rooms. Is the Member for Elmwood saying that the Consumers' Association and the Manitoba Society

November 9, 1990 LEG ISlA TIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA 997 of Senior s is in a back room developing bad legislation? Is that what the Member for Elmwood is- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honour able Member for Wellington. Ms. Barrett: Excuse me, Mr. Speaker, but I did not hear. Again, on the point of order, I did not hear the Member for Portage addressing the poi nt of order as he- Mr. Spea ker : Order, plea se. He was not addressing. He was not. I had said there was not a point of order. The Honourable Member was back on his second reading. Mr. Connery: The Member for Wellington (Ms.

Barrett) should know, when she rises on a point of order and there is no point of order, that is the end of it. I can appreciate the sensitivities of the Member for- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I would ask the Honourable Minister to keep his remarks relevant to the Bill before the House, Bill G. Mr. Connery: Mr. Speaker, I can appreciate your comments, but I also understand the sensitivities of the Members opposite. Mr. Speaker, we have indicated, at the beginning of my address, the amount of legislation that our Government has brought into effect since we have taken power.

I have also made reference to the almost nil amount of legislation that was introduced by the form er NDP Govern ment. Mr. Speaker, I recommend this Bill, Bill 6, The Busi ness Pr actices Act, to the Honourable Members of the Legislature . I look forward to hearing their comments, both the comments of the NDP Critic and the Critic for the Liberal Party, the Member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry). I think, Mr. Speaker, this is a Bill that is long, long overdue. lt has been discussed thoroughly by all sectors of our society to give it a balance of fairness to both the consumers and the business community.

I recommend this Bill highly to the Legislature. * (1 14 0) Mr. George Hlckes (Point Douglas): I move, seconded by the Memb er for Broad way (Mr. Santos), that the debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. BILL 12 -THE LABOUR RELATIONS AMENDMENT ACT Hon. Darren Praznlk (M inister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings), that Bill 12 , The Labour Relations Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les relations du travail, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of th is House. Motion presented. Mr. Praznlk: Mr. Speaker, I rise today with my voice quickly fading due to a cold that I am suff ering from . I hope that Honourable Members will bear with me as I make my remarks on this very important amendment to The Labour Relations Act. Mr.

Sp eaker, with the introd uction of this amendment, our Government proceeds to repeal wh at we have alwa ys consid ered to be an unnecessary and one-sided legislative intrusion into the collective bargaining process. lt has been and remains our opinio n that final of fer selection undermines free collective bargaining. On this simple but fundamen tal principle, our Government has based its continuous opposition to this provision.

On this principle, we once again take action to restore the balance which is so essential to the maintenance of a strong and healthy labour relations climate which ultimately leads to more jobs for the people of our province. Mr.

Speaker, I would remind all Members of this House that this particular issue is one that has been thoroughly debated by this Chamber on a number of occasions. lt is an issue which has had extensive public heari ngs dur ing the cour se of the last Legislature. lt is an issue which was included in the package of policies which Members opposite in the New Democratic Party took to the people during the recent general election. The repeal of final offer selection was part of the package which this Party took to the electors of the people of Manitoba in the recent general election.

One has to fu lly recognize that the people of Manitoba in that election have given us a manda te. I recog nize very fully, particularly Members of the New Democratic Party, that opposing the repeal of fi nal offer sel ection was an issue included in their package of policies, and I do not expect them to support this amendment because that would be, needless to say, a betrayal of the people who elected them on September 11 .

998 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA November 9, 1990 Conver sely, I think they have to respect that repeal was part of our package of issues that we took to the people, Mr. Speaker, and to not come forward with this amendment would equally be a betrayal of the electors who sent us to the Chamber. As to the Liberal Party, I look forward to hearing their position on this particular amendment. Mr.

Speaker, the fundam ental strength of the collective bargaining process is an agreement which incorporates the different positions of labour and management while allowing for a win-win solution which both sides can accept and live with. (Mrs. Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) The inherent principles of fi nal offer selection is that it creates a winner and a loser. lt is an all-or-n othing, imposed settlement, and it is an unnecessary legislative intrusion into the collective bargai ning process .

When the Bill was initially debated at committee in 19 87, various presenters said-a nd I would like to quote them, Madam Deputy Speaker, without putting a name, at this time, to the quotes. One presenter said: lt is the worst form of arbitration. lt encourages gamesmanship with the parties placing more emphasis on reading the arbitrator's mind than resolving the issues. Another presenter said: patronizing, gratuitous and contemptuous of precollective bargaining. A furt her presenter added: Final offer selection sets up situations where there is one big winner and one big loser.

Another presenter: lt removes the balance which is required to exist between the parties in order that a resolution palatable to both sides may result. Madam Deputy Speaker, I take this opportunity to remind Members of these comments and would draw all Members' attention to the fact that two of these comments were made by representatives of major employer associations, while two were made by representatives of major unions. I challenge Mem bers to disti nguish bet ween th em, fully confident that they could not.

This is a key reason for our Government's consistent opposition to the in trod uction of this one-side d , unb ala nced mechanism into our industrial relations legislative scheme. Mature and seasoned representatives on both sides of the table have expressed serious concerns that final offer selection disturbs the balance which is so essential to a healthy collective bargaining environment. We must ask ourselves, Madam Deputy Speaker, are the benefits of this method of dispute settlement so miraculous, so wonderful that it is worth comprom ising a basic and fundam ental principle of collective bargaining?

Members on this side of the House answer clearly, no, it is not. Let me point out to all Members that there has been a tradition in this province which respec ts and supports free collective bargaining, a tradition on both sides of this House. Let me remind you of these words, the words of a very prominent Manitoban, and I quote: lt is our conviction that the parties themselves should have as much freedom of action as possible to develop the ir own collec tive bar gaining and dispute-settlement procedures.

We believe that this approach will produce more acceptable results than would rigid legislative procedures that would inhibit the parties from exercising their own ingenuity in finding, developing and refining ways of resolving the difficulties-end of quote. Madam Deputy Speaker, these remarks were made by the Honourable Edward Schreyer in an address to the Manitoba Federation of Labour in October 19 72.

Again, Madam Deputy Speaker, I quote another Man itoban well-versed in employee-emp loyer relationships, and I quote: I recognize our present sys tem of collec tive bar gaining has ma ny imperfec tions, yet I still maintain that free collective bargaining is one of the best means available for negotia ting contra cts that are equitable and generally acceptable to the parties directly affected by the outcome of collective bargaining.

Laws can affect the nature and direction of collective bargaining, but they should not interfere with the process unless it is absolutely necessary and there are exceptional circumstances. Madam Deputy Speaker, those remarks are taken from an address pre pared from the Honourable Ken MacMaster and given to a meeting of the Mechanical Contractors Association in April of 19 79. I would suggest that reasonable Members on both sides of the House could endorse these remarks made by Honourable Members of both the Conservative and New Democratic Parties.

The reason that we can endorse these comments is that they are based on a sound understanding of the

November 9, 1990 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 999 importance of the collective bargaining process and the atmos pher e and fr amework necessary for reasonable agreements to be made and to flo urish. Let ther e be no misunder stand ing, Madam Deputy Speaker, Members of the Government are not at all opposed to final offer selection as a method of dispute resolution. We are completely opposed to the legislation of this mechanism , its compulsory nature and the inherent unfairness in that it can only be appr oved as a method by employees.

This opportunity is not afforded to employers. * (1 15 0) Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, members of the Manitoba public who have attended to the debates surr ounding this Bill may ask, why does this Govern ment simply not move to amend this section, making the process fa ir to everyone, by giving the employers exactly the same rights as employees? Afte r all, one of the reasons for supporting final offer selection made by Members of the New Democratic Party is that it reduces the opportunity to strike, prevents strikes.

So the argument goes, why should it not then be available to both sides equally, employers and employees? Well, Madam Deputy Speaker, I will allow the words of a member of the Manitoba Federation of Labour, Mr. Peter Kennedy, to answer that excellent question, and I would quote Mr. Kennedy: The most obvious danger in final offer selection legislation is that it can easily be altered to make strike action illegal . A Gov er nmen t ho stile to labour, no t nec essarily Tory-in the words of Mr. Kennedy-could remove the workers' veto giving management equal right to demand final offer selection.

A company which could not afford a strike could invoke final offer selection and get the plant running. This pot ential outcome makes the proposed legis lation the most insidio us and dangerous piece of anti-union legisla tion in decades-end of quote. Madam Deputy Speaker, these are not the words of a Conservative Member; they are the words of a member of the Manitoba Federation of Labour. I would like to take this opportunity to put to rest the notion that Members on this side of the House do not take into consideration the concerns and desires of working Manitobans, or the concerns of their representatives.

This is simply not true, and it is certainly not the message we have received in the recent election. I do not rise today to introduce an amendment which would give the same right to employers that the fos amendm ent gave to employees, thus fulf illing some of the worst fears of representatives of labour unions in the province that a hard-won right, the right to strike, would be thoroughly undermined, if not destroyed.

I rise to speak today to our position on this issue which is based on sound and consistent principles, principles which my Party and our Government will continue to maintain, that at the heart of the free collective bargaining system is the free collective agreement, and that the parties themselves must retain the responsibility for reaching and maintaining agreements. While Governm ents must occasionally take action to protect and preserve public safety, and there may be exceptional circumstances where intervention is warrant ed, these circumstances must be exceptional.

Madam Deputy Speak er, is it real ly worth compromising such fundame ntal principles for the sake of making compulsory a dispute resolution mechanism which the parties can voluntarily agree to, should they so wish. There are contracts in Manitoba which incorporate final offer selection provisions. If the parties wish to take this approach, they are at perfect liberty to do so. In fact, Madam Deputy Speaker, prior to the introduction of this amendment to The Labour Relations Act, there has been very little use of final offer selection as a tool for dispute resolution.

I would suggest that this is because, left to their own preference , the parties to collective agreements are not particularly enthusiastic about it. If they were, they would use it. Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, just before I turn to the specifics of final offer selection, let me turn again to our history to illustrate why we must exercise great caution in how we develop our labour legislation. The issue of third-party intervention into our collective process must be approached very caref ully. Such initia tives must be balanced, considerate and fai r.

They should not serve narrow or specific interests; whether those are the narrow interests of specific union leaders, specific business leaders, or political leaders. Out of respect for my colleagues opposite and members of unions, which have supported fi nal offer selection, I have reviewed the comments and thoughts of many of those, and I certainly do respect-

1000 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA November 9, 1990 let me share with Honourable Members the remarks of the Honourable A. Russ Paulley, form er leader of the Manitoba New Democratic Party and Minister of labour in an address to CUPE, Manitoba division, in September 19 76. I quote Mr. Paulley: Our present labour relations Act is very largely fo unded on the principle that the parties themselves, by the ir own efforts , ac tions, and sense of respon sibility should re solve their dif ferences themselves. Perhaps some of you in the union movement disagree.

I sympathize with a union which finds it lacks the strength to compel an emp loyer to agree to its preferred term s of settlement, but there are great dangers in expecting legislation and Governments to deliver the goods. For one thing, Governments change ; for another, the kind of legislation having any real effect would su bstitute state contro ls for free collec tive bargaining, lead to the abolition or reduction of important fr eedoms in our society and introduce a regimented system of wages, prices, profits and investment decisions.

Finally-and I continue to quote-it would detract from the strength of the labour movement, the last thing I imagine the labour movement would want-end of quote. Madam Depu ty Speak er, worki ng people in Manitoba have confidence in this Government to lead them through and out of some very diffi cult times. This is the message which they have recently delivered to all Members of this Ho use.

Our Governmen t recognizes that we have great and grave challenges to face, and that we will need the co-ope rati on of all Manitobans to build our economy, develop our resources, attract investment and provide the jobs which our citizens want and need. This Government encourages and challenges employees and employers to focus with us on the task ahead to achieve these goals which are crucial to all our collective well-being. As Minister of Labour, it is my challenge to ensure that the legitimate and important concerns of labour are heard.

I intend to do this sincerely and to the best of my ability, respecting that there may, from time to time, be diffe rences of opin ion which must be addressed and resolved. I do not believe, Madam Deputy Speaker, that compulsory, one-sided final offer selection, as a method for resolving disputes, is in the best interest of the collective bargaining process and ultimately the people of our province. Let us look, Madam Deputy Speaker, at what that process requires, then let us look at the effect of one-sided final offer selection.

I again would like to add that I do respect that Members opposite have arguments and analysis which they wish to reinforce as their reasons for having introduced and passed the original amendment to The Labour Relations Act. lt is not my intention to minutely detail all the old arguments which have been heard. ln fact, I am sure that we can all agree that this issue has had an extremely full discussion and debate. Again, it is our duty as responsible Members to place on the public record the reasons for our positions.

That is the essenc e of the parliamentary process, but we should not forget-and I would again remind this House that this matter has been debated and aired in a much larger foru m, the forum of public opinion. Madam Deputy Speaker, I will now turn my assessment of the practical need for final offer selection, bearing in mind the very grave concerns of representatives of both labour and management regarding the erosion of fundame ntal principles. Why does Manitoba need final off er selection? Do we have a level of work stoppage activity which requires attention?

Have we been encountering serious di ffi culties in our labour relations environment with regard to dispute resolution? Has legis lating final offe r selection brought some profo und and signific ant change to the labour relations climate in our province? The answer to these questions is no. lt is the nature of the collective process that there will be from time to time disagreements. This is normal. This is healthy, but what is the major problem that required such drastic action that it was necessary to impose this

part icular form of one-sided dispute resolution through legislation? One argument which is continuously offered as a reason for final offer selection is the need to reduce the number of work stoppages in our province. Firstly, Madam Deputy Speaker, Manitoba has consis tently had a very low number of work stoppages compared to the rest of Canada. In the 1 0-year period from 19 80 to 19 89, Manitoba was in the top three jurisdictions with the lowest number of person days lost to strike per 1 ,000 workers in seven out of those 1 0 years.

Let us be realistic, even those years when work stoppage activity is higher, it is usually indicative of what is happening in the rest of the country. Work stoppages are usually at their lowest levels during periods of economic slowdown

November 9, 1990 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 1001 and at their highest fol lowing these periods. This was exactly the case fo llowing the recession in the early 19 80s, for example. Madam Deputy Speaker, the relatively small number of work stoppages occurring in Manitoba each year makes it diffi cult to determine by comparison the positive effects of one-sided final offer selection. The point is that we do not have a significant problem with excessive strikes, so why do we need one-sided final offer selection?

Why would we disturb the essential balance of labour relations for such minimal reasons? * (1 200) Madam Deputy Speaker, a comparison of work stoppage activity before and after the introduction of fi nal offer se lection on Jan uary 1, 19 88 , does not show any startling change in work stoppage activity. There were 11 work stoppages in 19 88 and seven in 19 89 . Is this pattern so very remark able? Statistically, is it even relevant? I would suggest no, it is not. This is very similar to the eight work stoppages in 19 83 and 19 84 and the 10 work stoppages recorded in 19 82 and 19 87 .

If the number of work stoppages has not changed in any significant way with final offer selection, what did we then need it for? The one disturbing impact of final offer selection was recorded in 19 88 when an examination of the 11 work stoppages in that year showed that six involved applications for final offer selection during the 60- to 70-day window. The average duration of these six work stoppages was 81 .2 days.

This is significantly higher than the 1 0-year average of 36.5 days. lt would appear by legislating one-sided final offer selection, the effect was to prolong the average duration of work stoppages in 19 88. Now the Opposition must say that this is not such a significant impact. Madam Deputy Speaker, the effect was to more than double the duration of stri kes, compar ed to the avera ge, in the six applications where FOS was involved. From the date of introduction of fina l offer selection to October 4, 19 90, there have been 97 applications.

Of these applications, only seven decisions have been filed by a selector, with four decisions for the union proposal and three for the employer proposal. Six decisions are pend ing. There have been six dismissals. In 74 cases, parties have reached agreement prior to the appointment of the selector or prior to a decision, or they may have withdrawn. In three cases, parties are awaiting the result of a vote. In one case, a selector is being appointed. There are no applications pending.

Madam Dep uty Speaker, Members opposite have cited the fact that 75 percent to 80 percent of applications are settled voluntarily or withdrawn by the parties as proof that final offer selection is working, but what do these voluntary settlements or withdrawals really mean? Manitoba normally has 400 to 500 collective agreements expiring every year. The vast majority of these cont racts are settled by the parties themselves without resorting to strike or lockout.

If the par ties requir e assistance in settling, our department, through the Conciliation and mediation Branch, provides such service, excellent service, if I may say so, and also entirely at the request of the parties themselves. Use of the con cilia tion servi ce is entirely voluntary. These same services, Madam Deputy Speaker, are made available to parties who have applied for FOS. What is happening with voluntarily settled agreements is what happens in any case in normal collective bargaining.

The two parties sit down and negotiate, with the assistance of our concil iation staff, and they reach mutually acceptable agreements on terms and conditions of employment. This is our normal procedure. lt is not fi nal offer selection, I would suggest, which is producing the percentage of settlements. lt is the normal collective process working, as it does best, with the parties them selves reaching mutually acce ptable and livable agr eeme nts that cer tainly repr esent com promise and certainly represent a win-win result, not a legislated win-lose result.

When the parties want the assistance of a conciliator, they get it. We will not be successful in every single instance because we live in the real world, but we do have an excellent and enviable record.

When I assess Manitoba's low record of work stoppages over the years, Madam Deputy Speaker, I have diff iculty in believing that all the applications made for final offer selection would have resulted in a strike or lockout without the benefit of this particular mechanism , especially since most of the applications for legislated FOS are made in the first window of 30-60 days, prior to the expiry of a collective agreement.

1002 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA November 9, 1990 When you look at the applications made, many times the application is made even before the parties have exchanged initial bargaining positions, or before the point is reached when parties are concerned that negotiations may break down. There is really little evidence to suggest that final offer selection adds anything positive to our existing collective bargaining fr amework.

There is some evidence that it may have a negative effect on prolonging strikes and most importantly there are very evident concerns that it undermines the basic principles of collective bargaining, of free collective bargaining.

One need look no further than the 19 68 Woods Report to Parliament in Canadian labour relations to find com pelling arguments which suppor t the necessity of respecting the fundame ntals of the collective bargaining process, and I would like to quote that report, Madam Deputy Speaker: In a system of free collective bargaining, employees must be free to organize into unions, have a right to require the employer to face them at the bargaining table through their union representatives and, in the event of fa ilure to agree over the terms and conditions of employment, have the right to refuse to work wit hout permane ntly qu itti ng their employment.

Dean Woods also noted , Madam De puty Speaker, and I quote: The object of negotiation is agreement. An agreement is essentially

an act of volition, or at least a seH-determined choice of the lesser of two evils. Compul sory arbitration may serve as a crutch for weak leadership in either union or management. Where a union leader can force a dispute to arbitration, he can avoid some of the compromises within a union that invariably go into a settlement. I continue to quote: Instead of making the hard decisions about wage claims, as against fringe benefits , across the board absolute is against percentage increases. He can take the internal conflic ts to the arbitrator as demands and let him make the unpopular decisions.

Once a leader of any kind fin ds an easy way out of some of his dilemmas, he is likely to behave in the same manner in other areas. In the long run, the effect would be to under mine the leadership in question and the collective process itself�nd of quote. Madam Deputy Speaker, let me suggest that we should be taking all reasonable steps to encourage bargaining, negotiation and, of course, agreement. We should not be making it easy to resort to imposed settlements to satisfy the narrow interests of either union or management representatives.

Madam Deputy Speaker, while I respect the right of the Opposition Members to put on the record their reasons for supporting final offer selection, I confess I am somewhat surprised and saddened at the fervour with which they have embraced the practice which so clearly represents a threat to the collective bargaining process. When the original amendment to The Labour Relations Act was made, Madam Deputy Speaker, a numb er of highly respec ted union leaders expressed their opposition and their concerns.

At subsequent hearings, the Bill having become law, an action being taken to repeal, these same people were silent. They remained silent, I believe, as a gesture of solidarity with the of ficial Manitoba Federation of Labour position. I respect that silence, but would also respectfully sugges t the position may not have changed significantly. There may be one or two union representatives or unions who have altered their views, but we need only look at the usage record, i.e., those applyi ng for final offer selection to determine who principally want it and supports this procedure.

I would suggest all new Members of the House have a look at that record . Madam Deputy Speaker, I know very well that Members opposite are fully aware of the legal and jurisdictional boundaries which have circumscribed labour legislation and the evolution of the right of workers to engage in free collective bargaining. There is a long history of development in our province and our country of labour legislation. All of that tremendous sacrifice is being made to ensure that we had a true and free collective bar gaining process.

Madam Deputy Speaker, in reviewing labour legislation and the history of these arguments, I have purpos efull y avoided crit icizing specific Manitoba experiences with FOS. After all, while we may disagree with the principles underpinning this measure and are very concerned with its one-sided and compulsory nature, it has been the law. Madam Deputy Speaker, the parties who have used it have done so lawfully and appropriately, but let us take this issue outside of the boundaries of

November 9, 1990 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 1003 our province and examine an Ontario case from 19 77.

Madam Deputy Speaker, in the Haldimand Board of Education case, arbitrator Kenneth Swan made the fol lowing observations regarding final offer selection, and I quote: "The consequences of a total loss for one side on a series of matters going to the heart of the collective bargaining relationship are too serious to be easily ignored in fav our of the questionable process influence of selection on ma tters whic h are di ff ic ult to resolve by compromise." The problems in the Haldimand case indicate what can happen with FOS. Thirty issues were unsettled and left to the selector for a decision.

Professor Swan commented: "The items in dispute clearly included a number of matters on which negotiation and compromise were possible, such as the salary grid, a cost of living allowance, fringe benefits and allowances. "They also included, virtually in the entir e gr ievanc e and arb itration proc edur e , some proposals for eo-administration of certain aspects of employment and a number of important structural matters.

Because of the importance of the economic patterns in a selection like the present, it is only to be expected that they will weigh heavily in the balance when a selector is trying to select a more reasonable package. "The structural issues are not likely to outweigh the economic issues, and as a consequence, they are likely to be decided along with the economic issues. As a result," and I continue to quote, "the issues on which the parties are least likely to compromise are those which are likely to be overborne by the economic ques

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-1-22
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 1st hansardpdf 22.pdf
Language	en
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