VOL. 1 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSE~BLY FOR THE PERIOD: 1.0:00 .:t.m. - .l :00 p.m. FRIDAY, JUNE 25, 1982 NO. 29

June 25, 1982 Tape 1699 NM - 1 The House met at 10:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please~ ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) a question, and I would like for the minister to bear in mind that this is 1982 not 1939 and I would like for him to keep in mind th.::tt this is Lhc Province of Ncwfot!llJJ.·tnd .Jnd f,.Jllrc~dor, .1nd nut Nazi Germany. My question is this, Mr.

Speaker, does the minister intend to take legal action against the Iron Ore Company of Canada and force them to cancel out and remove a policy of their planners in Labrador City who have decided to qo through their files and weed out anybody and everybody who has had any kind of dealings with the law in the past and fire them on the spot? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr.

Speaker, certainly the policy, the first of which I heard was in the news last night, of what is reported to be the policy of IOC is certainly contrary to public policy As the House is aware, the matter of rehabilitation is an important matter. Public funds are spent on it throu<~h t.hc John Howard Society and through various other programmes. What I do intend to do this morning is to get in touch with the Human Riqhts Commission and I would like to have the benefit of their advice on it before proceeding further.

Having a Human Riqhts Commission, and I believe a good one and a quite active one, I \oTOuld hope to have the benefit of their advice in the very near future on this matter. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Oppositton. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I thank the h~n. minister. The bon. minister obviously shares my concern ~- '.1 3·.···3

June 2'> , 11)1'12 Tape l 1;1)9 NN - 2 MR . NEARY: and our concern over this extremely vicious policy, which I co nsider to be insulting and offen siv e in an eJlight ened society. It would appear to me to be the work of a devious mind and I am gla d to hear the hon . gentlem an say that he is going to consult with the !Iuma n Riqhts Association . Mr . Speaker, I would hope, and r am going to ask the hon. gentleman to advise the House of any follo w- up ~hat he might take on this matte r to try and undo the damage that has no w been done to all the socia l proqranunes that the hon. gentleman just outlined, the John Howard society, etc. And I would 3 5 i1 11

June 25,1982 Tape No. 1700 ah-1 MR. NEARY: assume that the hon. gentleman will take whatever steps are necessary to end this Nazi policy by the hierarchy of IOC quickly because as han. members know this sor~ oi policy could systematically eliminate anyone and everyone who opposes IOC. It could even put into effect a policy of racism in this Province and I ask the hon. gentleman if he would keep the House advised - there is not much we can no about it now until the hon. gent "Jeman does his homework -keep the House advised on what is happening in this regard. MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Justice.

MR.OTTENHEIMER : Mr. Speaker, I shall certainly keep the House j nformerl. J t is my intcnt.ion to wri to to the manager of roc pointing out that this action is contrary to public policy but , of course, that in itself does not preclude him from doing it. But certainly to put on the record the position of the government and then also to seek the advice of the Human Rights Commission and I will certainly be glad to keep the House informed on further developments. MR.NEARY: MR.SPEAKER: MR.NEARY: Mr.Speaker. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr.

Speaker, let me ask the Government House Leader a question, a supplementary, in the absence of the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor) in connection with the future oi the Iron <~re Compuny of Canada and the Wabush Mining Company. Everyone in Newfoundland knows that both companies are down now for eleven weeks and are scheduled to reopen again in September 1 but that seems to be uncertain and indefinite. Does the administration have any information that has 3511-~

,June 25,1982 Tape No. 1700 ah-2 ~m. NEARY: ·--- not been made public by either one of these mining companies in connection with what will happen after September lst? Will the mines be back in operation, both mines, or will they be going b~ck in oper~tion on a reduced scale? Does the administration h~ve any information that the general public does not have? ~!3.:_.!? f'_I';_I'~_!\_ER ( Rus sc_:ll:_) : The hon. President of the Council. MR.MARSHALL: No, Mr. Speaker.

Our anticipation as well as the public anticipation is in conformity with the statement made by the companie~· which is that they will be going back at the times they said they would be qoing back. MR.ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER: The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. ~m. ROBI':H'l'S: Mr. Speaker, if I could move from Western Labrador down to the Western side of the Northern Peninsula,a question for the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.Morgan) of which I gave him notice immediately before the House sat.

I understand the qovcrnmcnt has rf'ceivcd, or the minister , I guess, representing the government, has received a proposal from the T.J. Hardy interests in Port aux Basques who are the leaseholders, the lessees of the stages, the pl~nt facilities at Anchor Point and at Flowers Cove. T wonder if there is anything the minis~er can tell us at this time about the situation? I have no doubt he is woll c:w::1re thn.t people in both commun.ities, the people who work at these p1ants 1 are extremely anxious, The season is now getting well on, we are nearly up into the month of July "'J c ... lj 'J 11 g

June 25, 1982 Tape No. 1701 JV - l MR. ROBERTS: Is there anything the Minister could tell us with respect to whether those plants might be brought into operation this season? MR. ~PEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, yes, it is correct that we received a proposal involving a request for tinancial assistance; that same proposal and request has also been made to the Federal Government, Jn other words, a proposal made to both governments asking both governments for financial assistance. And it is from the company, '!'. J.

Hardy, which is owned fifty percent by the Nicken;on firm and fifty percent by Mr. Hardy of Port-aux-Basques and it involves their operations both at Anchor Point,at Flowers Cove at Cow Head ,at Fort-aux:-Basques and at Hose B I anchc. rn otlwr words, all their operations. All I can say is that the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) is aware of it and my colleague the Minister of Development (Mr.

Windsor), because we have assigned officials in these three departments- Pish eries, Finance and Devc~lopmc~nt- to fully .:~sscss Llw rcquc~:;t <md proposal from that company which is requesting -and I do not want to give the details, because I would think it would be unfair-unless the Company agrees for us to do that, make it public -but I will say it involves millions of dollars from both governments in the form of assistance to enable that Company to carry on its operations. Like many other companies they are finding themselves in financial difficulty.

And, as I say, the company structure is of such a nature -it is owned half by 'Nickerson's it is separate from what we talked about earlier, where we have assisted and formed a new company with the Nickerson firm, that company structure involves the plants that were owned outright by Nickerson's in Newfoundland. 'l'hj s structure nn t.hat part o t' I he co as l j :-; 11<11 r and half, owned in that way, and all I can say to the hon. gentleman is that we will deal with our part of the proposal 3;iri7

,JllJ H~ 2'.i , 1982 1'ape No. 1701 JV - 2 MR. MORGAN: as quickly as possible. It is being assessed now and then we will get it to the level of the full Government, the Cabinet, to make a decision as to what we can do to assist them. We are hopin<J that at the l•'ederal level - I understand that. it has gone to Mr. Kirby, the head of the Federal Government Task Force, and also to officials of Mr. LeBlanc's dl.! par.tment - so we :1 .li ~; q

LTU!ll' 25, 1982 'l'<lpC No. 1 "/0 2 M,J - I MR. J. MORGAN: are hoping they will give it the same kind of urgency as we have to get something, if at all possible, some consideration from both governments as quickly as possible. MR. E. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker. MR~§PEA~~~~~~~~~l~ The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Thank y0n. A supplementar-y if I might. I thank the minister for his very full and very positive response. A couple of ~uestion~ grow out of what he su.id. It is obvious, l assur;IC, from cvli.J.t he said-perhaps he could confirm it or straighten us out if it is not correct - MR.

J. CARTER : Is this a speech. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, I do have the power of speech, unlike the gentleman from St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter) who can only grunt. - perhaps he could confirm th e new arrangement between the government and Nickersons, whatever form it is to take, does not involve the plants he jus·t enumerated.

Secondly, it is my understanding that the plants in Port aux Basques and the areas that the minister named, cxceptinq on I y lhc pl ~tnts on the Nntllcrn Pen i nsul;·- Cow II<·.Jd - I am not sure about Parson's Pond - Anchor Point and Flower's Cove- these other plants are operating, on whatever basis catch-as-catch-can as may be. Is there any possiblity that arrangements could be worked out,even on an interim basis - and ju~t so we are all perfectly aHare of it, Mr.

Speaker, to show you the type of economic world we live in in Newfoundland todil"- llc,.-illl"'·· the urgent thinq is- the ministc:r, T knc>\J, i~; l11llv <~>J;lrt• - is IIJ.tt II~< · people working these plants qet their ten stamps. T I th('Y do nnt ,lr;;~q

June 25, 1982 Tape No. 1702 MJ - 2 MH. Jo:. rwrmwrs: qet. their ten stamps then, of course, dire economic catastro?he is likely. MR. II. L\ND::l.mvS: ·- ----- ----- Terrible. Mil. !{OI.n:RTS: I am sorry. Did my friend from Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. H. Andrews) say something? MR. 1\NOREWS: Is t'1at your idea of economic development? MR. ROP.El~TS : No,it is not my idea of economic develo pment, Mr. Speaker, I say to the minister, it certainly is not. llut hal [ d loc1 r: is better than none und ,until he and his colleagues can get some economic development in this Province, we got to go with what we got.

And ten stamps is an awful lot better than what they will get if they do not get ten stamps, which is the miserly welfare that the minister and his coL Lc~w'i ues dole oul. Now, Mr. Speake4 let me come back to the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. J. Morgan) who is being sensible, un 1 i K<' the qentleman from Burg eo-Bay d' Espoi r. Is there anyway in which arrangements could be put into place to have these plants brought into operation?

The problem of course is made urgent because there is a fish quota, the minister is more dW;,r·,, nl" it t.h ;m l .1111, in th<' Gulf. '!'he <lHOti< is bC'inq cau<"Jht up and if the plants cannot be brought into operation very quickly, I am told, it is more than likely that there will not be enough fish left to provide ten weeks work and therefore these people will not get stamps. And whether that is the most desirable development or not it is only possible development for these pe<l:' I c now. ~!3 ..: . .:_3? ~!\KER (Russell): The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MH •• r. MORGJI.N: Mr.

Speaker, yes 1 that is one of the reasons why we are dealing with it as quickly as possible, in an urgent way because we realize that these - we call them feeder plants, in Plower's Cove and Anchor Point in particular, and Cow Head - that these plants are not open,

whereas the main ~: 1nn

June 25, 1982 Tape No. 1702 M,J - 3 MR. J. MORGAN: plants, the processiny plants in Port aux Basques and Rose Blanche are open, :1S C1

June 25, 1982 Tape 1703 PK - l MR. MORGAN : But the proposal from the company was of the nature that it wanted us to deal with their overall operations in total. And the financial assistance will involve their total overall operation. I have been in contact through my of ficc with the company at Port aux Basque ..

They have inforrred me they will buy from the fishermen at Anchor Point, but unless and until the financial problem is resolved they are not able to reopen the ;:>l<:.nt at Anchor Point.SO that gives us some urgency , as was ,:>oi;1ted out by thP hon. gentleman, in getting the plnnt open because it means jobs, because there is a quota on the Otter trawler dragger fishery operations in the Gulf and when that quota is reached,of course, no more raw material and it would mean no ~ore jobs in that plant.

So we will deal with the proposal as quickly as possilble and,as I said earlier,we are hoping the federal government will take the same kind of dll i tUlk. MIL SPEAKER (Russe],_l) : The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A further supplementary. The minister and I, I think, are of one mind on this and I think we are both on the right track. MR. TULK: For once the minister is right. MH. ROBERTS: minister was right yesterday on this over-the-side The thing too. I mean - MR. NEARY : You and 'Morgan' are l~n tJ\0 ~~.Ufk:' tru.ck2 MR.

ROBERTS: Yes, I say to my friend, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary); when the Minister :Ei ~

i) June 25, 1982 Tape 1703 PK - 2 MR. ROBERTS: of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) and I agree everybody else in the House need stand aside and wonder what is happening. Now let me just come back to the Hardy proposal again, because it is of immense importance to several thousand people whose only livelihood is there. We bailed out Ramea and Burgeo so let us bail out these areas down here too. And my friend for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Andrews) will agree that there is as much economic development on the Northern Peninsula as there is on the Southwest Coast.

Is the proposal - and T agree with the minister, I do not want to get into the details of it. The~e is no business of bringing it out publicly at this stage - is the proposal contingent upon federal and provincial financing? In other words, are we going to be in another situation where, you know, 'After you, Alphonse,' 'No, no, Gaston. You must go first.' Can the minister tell us whether the proposal is of such a nature that it must have aclion by IJoth gov L' rmuc~nts, or will iL l1c po s:;Ll;Jc to resolve this at the level of the provincial government if we cannot get joint action?

Obviously joint action is desired, particularly because it would appear obvious that the Treasury is going to have to make a contribution, and it is devoutly to be desired, I am sure, that th~ f c der~l Tr< '~sury contribute as well as the provincial Treasury. But are we in a position of having to wait for a joint agreement particularly with respect to these Northern plants, which I understand the minister to say cannot be separated out as part of the package, the package must be viewed as a whol e. ::1 Cj q "i

June 25, 1982 Tape 1703 PK - 3 MlL SPEAKE!3 (Russell): The hon. Minister of l·'islli..'l" ics. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, when the company Nickerson's regarding their plants on the Northeast Coast made a proposal to both governments - well first let me go bnck a bit further, First of all when the proposal was ·: made to both governments by the Lake Group, we were successful in the two governments and the bankers ~ ~~-~I,

June 25, 1982 Tape No. 1704 SD - l MR. MORGAN: working out an arrangement of financial assistance from both governments to enable the re-opening of these plants. When a proposal was made from ~he Nickersons along a similar line to both governments for financial assistance, we found ourselves in a position whcr<"' the federal government rejected the request so we had to deal with the proposal to us alone with the bankers.

We were able to do that by means of successful negotiations with the bankers in particular in bringing down th e amount of money required to be put forward by CJOVernmcnt. 1n this case the proposal involves millions of dollars [rom both governments and unless these figures change , based on the information we have seen to date- my discussions with my colleagues and the officials in the different departments, the three departments I mentioned -unless these figures come down from what we have seen to date in the proposal, and we have no reason to believe they are going to change at this time, it will de[initcly need both governments to put in financial assistance as a result of it.

MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The bon. member for Torngat Mountains . MR. Wl\RREN: Mr. Spcukl'r, my qlll'stioJt i~~ t:o the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. Goudie). In the Estimate Committee I wanted to ask the minister could he confirm that his department is anticipating or is planning or has already transf er red housing th~t was built by the provincial and federal governments over a number of years, has his department transferred those houses to the town council or to individunl people in Torngat Mountains? MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Minister of Rurnl, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE:· Mr. Speaker, this particul~r .1 s C) ...

,lurH' 25, l')ll2 '!'ape No . 1704 SD - 2 MR .

GCUDlE : item came out during the estimate discu:>s ions in committee and , as a mat.tcr of fact , this particular move had been taking place prior to the Budget bC'i nq hrmHJht down . nut whilt is happening is that over the Jasl ten or twelve years there have been 397 houses , I believe !>uilt in various communitie s in Labrador, seven comm unities in parr.icular , and \"hat •·1e have now done as a governme nt is turned over these housing units to the ir respective community council s in the community, wh o in turn will then be in a position to turn them over to the present occupant or· some' otlwr p.~rsnn who miq ht hilVC nn interest. j n that p«rti.culoJr: dwel li ng.

MR . WARREN : Supplementary, Mr . Spea ker . MR . SPE l\K ER (Russe ll.) : Supplementary , the hon. member for •ror ngat Mountains . MR . \vi\RREN: t-lr. Speaker, my supplementary is Lo t!ll! Minister o[ Health (Mr . House) bu t it has to do with the ~unister of Rural , Agricultural and Northern Development's department (Mr . Goudie) . The Minister of Health is not here . He was here just a second wherever he has <JO ne .

Anyway probably I will ask the President of the Council (Mr . l'tarshall), in his absence, ar:c tlwrc any regulations within the governmen t of items 111.11 .11\' nn Llw slwlvl's in ~t,,,·c·s Lhrou<Jhont Nc·wfounclland and r.abradoJ : and wh en it says 'b est befor e such a da ,te ' how much longe r shoul d these items be left on the shelves be(ore being used? :1 ~ ~; r;

June 25, 1982 MR. MARSHALL: £-:::>. SPEAKER (Russell) MR. MARSHALL: Tape 1705 NM - 1 Mr. Speaker. The hon. President of the Council. Mr. Speaker, I think it should probably come as no surprise to the hon. member that I cannot answer that question immediately. I would have to research to see whether there is any regulation or law to that effect. But really I think what the hon. gentleman is referring to the area in which any such prohibition would come, would be under the federal laws, you know 1 t.hL' federal !o'ood and Druq Act, which woulJ rewll y regulate that particular aspect.

Because it would seem that that would be within the powers or the aegis of the federal qovernment. But I cannot indicate exactly as to whether there is any legislation provincially which might indirectly inpinqe on the question. · I think it is mainly a matter of federal concern. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a counle of questions for the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) .

Some time aqo the minister called public tenders for a ferry service to Pelleys Island, Can the hon. gentleman tell the House if the contract has been let yet, the ferry service to Pclleys Island? MR. SPEAKER: MR. DAWE: The hon. Minister of Transportation. Mr. Speaker, the proposals, the bids, have been in now for some time and discussions have qone on with the individuals. I think there were seven or eight, either companies or individuals,who had applied to operate that service, I understand that the lowest bidder has subsequently withdrawn his bid so the department is now talkinq to the second lowest bidder.

But it has not been confirmed yet or officially let or indicated who the operator is. :l s ~n

Jun8 25, 1982 Tape 1705 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Could the minister i nd i c<ti~L' when he ex pee ts to lc t the con troc t? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, it has been handled down the line. I would suspect within the next couple of days we should have a definite - once they have talked to the second lowest bidder and have confirmed that the bid is acceptable and in line,then it will be let. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. 1\!EARY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like also to ask the hon. gentleman about the ferry service to Ramea and the construction of the ferry terminals. Could the hon. gentleman indicate to the House when the tenders will be called for the terminals? MR. SPEAKER: MR. DAWE: The hon. Minister of Transportation. Mr. Speaker, the tenders have already been called. The best information that I have is that the terminals should be built by late Fall. Maybe late November or early December the terminals themselves will be finished.

We hope to call tenders on that service, the service itself sometime in mid July once the vessel is over from Scotland. I indicated to the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) that the vessel had been purchased, that is the one to go in the Fogo service. It should be over about mid July. Once CSI has done their final evaluation and approval of that vessel,we will call tenders immediately . MR. I~J\RREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. ~ ~I C: ~~

June 25 , 1982 .MR. NEARY : ~ffi . SPEAKER (Russell): the Opposition . Mr.. NEARY: Tape 1705 NM - 3 No, I have a supplementa ry . A supplementary, the hon. Le ader of Did I understand the hon. qcntlemnn correctly that the contract has been let for the termin als and that they are under construction? Or is he is in the pro ce ss of screening the tenders to let a contract? :l 'i ~{ •I

,June :~ 5 , 1 9 8 2 Tape No. 1706 ah-1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Transportation. Ml~ .D/\WI·:: Mr. Spe~kcr, 1 will take a couple of minutes and check that out for sure. I know the tender calls have been let but I am not sure whether the contracts themselves have been awarded. What I indicated as an end of construction date is what the department officials qive me as an estimate. I can check it in the next couple of minutes and let you know. Mr~. \v/\Him l\1 : M1:. Sp0~k c r. MR.SPEAKER: The hon. member for the Torngat Mount .ains. MR.WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Communications (Mr. Doyle). I think this will probably be his first question in the House. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: It will be his first answer. MR. Wl\I~REN: So, Mr. Speaker, I understand that Ncwfoun~Jand Telephone is looking for an increase. Could the minister advise if he has had any intervention aqainst Newfoundland Telephone with their latest request for an increase? .MI~. SI'I·:/\J\1-:H : 'I'he hon. Minister ot Communications . ------- MR.DAWE: No, Mr. Speaker, it is not the policy of governmen~ tn intervene in that regard.

The Newfoundland Telephone rate increase, the application for it has gone to the Public Utilities Board and as the hon. nnnrlnm~n is aware the Public Utilities Board is of course a quasi-judicial body and it is not the policy of government to intervene in that regard. MR.SPEAKER: The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR.WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question for the ~~inister-or probably a new question. Could :I'~ :' n

June 25,1982 Tape No. 1706 ah-2 MR . WARREN: the minister advise the House what tim~ does he expect that we will be receivin ••pay television throughout the Province? MR .SPEAKER(Russel) : The hon . Minister of Con~unications . M~. DOYLE: Mr .Soeaker , as the hon . gentleman is probably already aware , six licenses ~~ve been gra nted by the CRTC for natio nal packaging of pay TV . As a condition of that lice ns e the signal has to be on satellit e by April of 1983 .

After that , of course, it will depend on the local exhibiters in the Province and whether or not thev wish to get involved in the implementation o r pay TV . 'T'ha t w i.ll be <!~term i nc<l , u f course, Mr .Speaker , by the local exhibiter and how quickly he wants to move in that area and will be determined , of course, by market demands . So the signal has to be up on satellite by April of 1983, so anytime after that the local exhibition of the ;;erv ice could come to Ne wfoundland , it could be implemented within a year . But again, as I said, that wil I depend upon market demands . ') (' . I .1 I

June 25, 1982 Tape No. 1707 SD - l MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The han. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, the minister is doing so very well let me serve another nice big soft one up to him to see if he can hit it out of the ball park. Could the minister tell us what steps he and his colleagues are prepared to take to provide the second television channel to the parts of th•~ Province which do not now have it?

And specifically whether he is prepared to provide the financial assistance which is all that stands between the people who do not now have it and the state of affairs where they could have a second national television channel? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Communications. MR. DOYLE: I assume the hon. gentleman is referring to remote parts of the Province. MR. ROBERTS: Well, Mr. Speaker, if the minister will permit, people who live there do not consider them remote. There must be 50,000 in this Province who have access only to the CBC channel. MR. DOYLE: Well,iust recently, Mr.

Speaker, twenty-five applicants have been given licences for the distribution of the package known as the Cancom package in NP.wfoundland. That particular package is designed to to serve remote areas of the Province. So insofar as the financial end of it is concerned, helping these individuals brinq that service into these remote areas, we certainly do not get involved in that area of providing financial assistance to these companies to get that package programrninq into these areas. MR. ROBERTS: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : Supplementary, the han. member f~r the Strait of Belle Isle. 3 F.:: )

...... June 25, 1982 Tape No . 1707 SD - 2 MR . ROBERTS : !•1r. Speaker, it \vas a lovely soft question but I am not sure the minister understands the problem .

Let me then ask him whether he is awar e that the effect of t.."e introduction of the Cancom package into the areas of the Province where CRTC has approved it - twenty-five h..e says ; however many there are , I accept his f igur e , of course the effect of that is to create two classes of television viewers in this Province , those who for no direct charge have access to both CBC and CTV services , which is about 90 per cent of the Province, and those who have access to CBC (or free with no direct c llarge,buL fo• · ac:ccss tn th0 CTV service - not NTV; . they do not see Newfoundland news . You sit in St .

Anthony , Mr . Speaker , and you can t•at ch at 10 : 30 at night the 6 :0 0 Vancouver netvs . It is marvelo us, You know exactly what is happ ening in Vancouve r , you know more about what is happening in the Legislature of British Columbi~ then you do about what is happening in our Legislatur:<? - and for that service, the.' CTV s crv i (;(' , the people in these , ;l r; ':

June 25, 1982 Tape 1708 NM - l Mf{. ROI3l-:R'l'S : to use th0 minister's unfortunate term 'remote areas', are required to pay a fee approved by the CRTC, and it is compensatory $12, $13, $14 a month, plus the cost of the scrarr.bler device. So, you know, the situation is we have two classes of people in this Province now, those who must pay for their television and those who get if from the airwaves for free.

Secondly, I would ask the minister a second question, or a second point that he might want to mull over and in due course announce a policy on - of course I assume he is aware that the CRTC approved services, which is the distribution of the Cancom signal from the satellite, that does not cover larqe areas of the Province. It only covers lhe ;-lreas in respect of which the licence is qranted. Let me qivc him an cxumple.

You can qct the Cancom service in Anchor Point if you wish to pay the going rate, $12, or $13 a month, whatever is - which is substantial - but you cannot qet it in a community four or five miles away from the transmitter in Anchor Point because of course the Cancom's service involves pulling a signal down from the satellite with a ground receiver station and retransmitting it. MR. MORCl\N: seven miles. MH. l<OBF. HTS: Seven miles, my friend from Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan) who has some knowledge in that as well. So seven miles maximum and there are still - MR.

TULK: Better if he knew sornethinq about the --- - rishc•ly. MR. NEl\RY: Expert on television, knows nothing about the fishery . MR. ROBERTS: The point to the Minister of Communications (Mr. Doyle) is that there are still large areas of this Province, even with the Cancom approved service, where people do not have access to the second TV service. And I suggest to him that he 1fl

June 23, 1982 Tape 1708 NM - 2 MR. ROBERTS: might consider, as a point of government policy, making both national television services available to all the people in this Province. I would suggest to him as well the cost is minimal. It could be done for less than it costs,say,to run Mount Scio House for a year, just to take a figure out of thin air, and would provide a hell of a lot more for the people of this Province in the way of educating and benefiting them than does some other expenditures of the <JOvcrnrncnl. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. DOYLE: The hon. Minister of Communicntions. Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I believe, and it is also the belief and the policy of the Newfoundland Government, that all people in the Province should have access to a hroader ranrre or services, every area in Newfoundland. MR. ROBERTS: On the same basis? MR. DOYLE: On the same basis as well. I<Ve full' believe that. The CBC is not readily available in all communities yet in Newfoundland simply because of - MR. ROBERTS: Because of the 500 policy. MR.

DOYLE: - because of the 500 policy, the CI3C's accelerateci coverac;c pl.1n. rrowevcr, i11 som<' in~;tance~;, and I think I should make the hon. member aware of this, in some instances,as the area like Rigolet is concerned, the CBC have hot yet provided a s~rvice in that area because of theiraccelerated coverage pl~n,but at the same time in areas like Postville and Makkovik they have gone in and orovidc>d the service and have chosen to waive the 500 accelerahed coverage plan.

So it is the policy of the Newfoundland Government that all areas of the Province should have full TV service. with respect to Cancom aqain, ~ h :~ '1

June 25, 1982 Tape 1709 PK - l MH. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker, it would also be of interest I am sure to people in remote areas that the jurisdictional end of the whole thing has not been fully worked out yet, and that even existing cc~l>Lc· companies !;IJOultl be allowed, insofar as I <Im concerned and insofar as the Newfoundland Government is concerned, existing cable co~panies should be allowed to pull down that s.ignul and to bring it into areas as well. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: A further supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

We are all going to be a lot older, as I am sure the minister either realizes or will shortly realize, before the jurisdictional questions are resolved. I am not even sure that people,in government and outside,understand the technical issues let alone the jurisdictional questions which arise.from them. The minister has stated the policy. Could he tell us what he and his colleagues- this is really where we carne into this little chat this morning- what he and his colleagues are prepared to do to implement that policy?

All the more so should they do something to irnplernentit, I suggest to hirn,because,as he has just said,he and his colleagues have jurisdictional claims which, with my full blessing, they should advance in the appropriate fashion ,in the appropriate place, and at the appropriate time. But what is he prepared to do?

Because the only way that these people in, to use the minister's infelicitous phrase, in these 'remote areas' will ge·t television is if somebody, and I am suggesting the government of the Province p1·ovidc•:; liJc• IJ,\rdwl!·c· m~C:t.'SS.\J·y lo rc'ccivc Llll' siqnal,wheLhcr it is (rom a satellite or from a land link 1and to rebroadcast it to the people with television sets. What is the government '1G ,;~

June 25, 1982 Tape 1 709 PK - 2 MR. ROBERTS: prepared to do about that? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon . Minister of Communi cations . MR. DOYLE: I do not know what the hon . gei.tleman means when he ·:says that the gove rnm ent should provide the hardware to bring that in . MR . ROBERTS: Receivers . MR. DOYLE: We) I ~01110 t j Ill(' - .I-1R. ROBERTS : They cost $100 ,0 00 each . MR. DOn£: That ie not the policy of the Newfoundland Governm ent , Mr. Speaker, to provide the hardware to bring in that signal, Tha t is generally done by the priv ate operators or the exhibitors who apply for lice ncing.

I t might be of interest to the hon. gentleman to know that over the last e.ouple of months in attending a fe deral - provincial co nference in Calgary on this matter with the Federa l Minister of Communicat ions, Mr . Fo x, that the federal gover nme-nt is quite adamant t hat they do not intend to r eally rel~as,~ <lny of the jurisdiction .1 r. . 7

Ju.nc 25, 1982 Tape No. 1710 MJ -1 MR. N. DOYLE: th.11 t-h0y pn~r-:enllv ho1(1 ov1n thi..s type or service. So a l<.•t of jurisdictional things wiH have to be worked out before w<'! c:tn n<ldress that problem. But again I say to the hon. •1cntleman that we ~er~ in this Province, as the government feels that everybody .in the Province, no matter where they liV'e, should have as broad an access t9 these services as is possible. Sc) 1 n reqar.d to getting involved ,Ji th actually providing the :;<'tVil'•' il:-;,•11 01:; o1 qovPinntPnl.,wr.

I"C'rUlinly r<1nnr>t do that,b11t \ve c:an cncoul:'a~Te and we cu:-e encoul:'aging and we will continue to encourage the federal government and operators in the Province to get involved in bringing T. V. services into remote areas of the Province. ~~~-?~f.~KER (Russell): Order, please! 'rhe time Eor Question Period has expired. NOTICES OF ~lOTION ~1fL 1'1. MARSIII\1,1.: Mr. Speaker. MIL SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. ~!~.: .!"0!-~~~~~ Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the hon. ~inister of Finance (Dr. J.

Collins) I give notice that I \~iII •Ill I <1111\11'1'11\~ .t!ik 11'<1V\~ 1.<• .inl:r'(\dttCU l.hc rollowinq !Jil1S: "1\n \ct Rosp~cti::.,; .1\n Increase In Cf!rtain Pensions", l' .. nd another bill: " ll.n ll..ct Re!'lpecting .'\n Increa:;e To Certain uensions "'or Transferred F.m9loyees." 1 r; ... ~

June 25, 1982 'l'i'l pe No . 1 7 1 o M,l' - 2 ANSWERS TO QUESTION FOR WHCIH NOTICE HAS !?EEN GIVF.N MR. J . DINN: Mr . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon . the Mini ster of J,;\l)() uJ· and Manpower . MR . DINN : 1-\r . Speaker , J l1ave tho an51 ..rcr t<> ('lc;litl tl 132 , asked by the the hon . the member fo1: •rerra Novil (1'1r . 'l'. Lush) on the Order Paper dated June 24 , 1982 . 000 MR . S . NEARY : Mr . Speak er , il ·Joi nt of j n fnrml lt ion b<' I' ore~ the hon . 1en t 1 c111: H1 c; 1 I I r; l:hr n r<i~· n: 111 llw n.1y . MR . SPEAKER: 'rhe hon . th e I.cade r or the Opposition. MR .

NEARY : We have a department of <JOVcrnm<:!nt that did not appear befor e any commiltee to deCem! lh t~i r estimates , the so-called Department Of Communic atio ns. W<)Ul<i the hon . gentleman tell us, you know, how we are goi nq to examine the est imates of th.e new Oepa rtm ent <>f Comtnuni t:ilt inus·? Is the minister being paid? Is their any auth ority to pay the minister? Ther e is nothing in the estil11ates . We hav e ·the estimates not showin g a Department of Communications ex cept under Executive Council . And no sala ry for the minis ·ter . I mean , how are we goi nq to CJet at this?

Th ere is no provi~it)n, in t-h. ~ concu rre nce debate that is coming up , to discuss it. ·u ;;

,June 25, 1982 MR. NEARY: the estimates and just - AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: conununications, Lut - Tape No. 1711 JV - 1 So are we going to go through It is under Executive Council. Yes, it is under Executive Council, MR. ROBERTS: Where is the salary? MR. NEARY: - there is no provision for a salary there. The Minister did not defend his estimates at the Committee meetings, there is no provision for it in the c:nncur.ro.ncc debate, it just does not exist as far as the House is concerned. Could the hon. gentleman tell us how to solve this? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): MR. MARSHALL: The hon. President of the Council. Mr.

Speaker, I can see after the stirling answers qiven by the hon. minister today why the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) would be very worried about his salary if it was not included,because from the way he answered today he should get a double emolument. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR. MARSHALL : The hon. gentleman will find the Minister of Communications (Mr. Doyle) estimates covered in Executive Council under Subhead 305-03. Now, this was discussed, Mr. Speaker, in the House, in the full House, before the whole House, and the bon. gentleman had quite adequate opportunity to ask questions then.

But he was only interested in asking questions and making observations about himself beating his head off the table in the Cabinet room in a former administration and asking other such innocuous questions. I kept reminding him at the time that what he should do, was ask questions with respect to the expenditure of money. Had he done that, he would have found that the Minister of Communications is looked after in these estimates and so is his Department. :~r.1'1

June 25 , 1982 Tape No . 1711 JV - 2 MR . SPEAKE~ (~ussell) : Orde r No. 3. Concurrence Motion I Resource comnittee . The hon . the President of the Council . MR,, MA~SHAL L : The hon. the Member for Fortune -Hermitage (Mr . Stewart) is not here today, he is on government business. I am not going to speak to any g~eat de gree on his behalf excep t to say that the Resource Committee met and the estimates or the v.,,·io\tS departments heard in the Re source Committee came under examination .

The meetings were very well attended on the gove rnment side and there were questions, very searching questions th at were asked . There was a exami nation of the -var ious details of the esti ma tes which experience has shown from the way in which these committees work that there is a much more effective examination of the estimates than there has been in the Ho us e . So the concurrence motion n0\-1 is before the Rouse , it has been presented by the hon . member, he has gi v~ notice of it,and I move the Concurrence Motion in the interest of having the Resource Committee's Estimates debated . MR.

SPEAKEH : (1\ylward) : MR. NE .MW' : Orde r pleas e: The hon . the Leader of the Opposition . Mr. Speaker , this is probably one of the most important Committees that we will be :'H ~ i I

June 2 5, ] 9 8 2 Tape No. 1712 ah-1 MR.NEARY: discussing because we _are talking about the industries tJ1.1t prl)vidc the new dol J ;us [or thj s Province. We 3re talking about the fishery, the energy department, rural and Northern development and forestry. Now, Mr. Speaker, it is rather disappointing that the bon. gentleman who chaired that committee is not in the House this morning to move his own concurrence debate because,as bon. members know after listening to the Government House Leader,all the gentleman did was to bluff his way through. He did not have the foggiest notion of what he was talking about.

I cannot blame the Minister of Justice (Mr.Ottenheimer) for sitting there with a smile on his face and looking up at the Government House Leader with his mouth open wondering Whdt he is going to say. 'l'he hon. gentleman did not know until prior to his getting up on his feet, he looked around to see if the member for Fortune Bay l"as here ,and when he discovered he was not here he said, 'l'llell,. somebody has to move the concurrence debate,' so the hon. gentleman got up and bluffed his way through it. Mr.

Speaker, that just goes to show what a shambles, what a shal'l, what a farce i:his system of examinincr estimates is in this House. It is a complete and utter farce and the only thing it does is yive the government a free ride. Mr. Speaker, they ~rc 0etting away almost scot-free with the estimates hy butyinq t-he cstjm<ttcs in i:hc hourd rooms an<l in the old Colonial Building. And, Mr. Speaker, it may sound repetitious,but the estimates should be analysed here in this bon. House. We are the only Province in Canada :iGl'.J

June 25 ,1 982 MR .NEARY: Province in Canada . Mlt._CARTER • MR.NEARY: Tape No . 1712 ah -2 Hhich has this system the only That is not true . It is true. And I think thut aiter the experience this year,and the track record of the last t\-10 or three years we should revert back to discussing estimates here on the floor of the House of Assembly. Once you remove the power of the purse from parliament ,you take awav its authority and you take away its power and that is what has happened here, Mr . Speaker . MR.CARTER : Pu .re rubbish. MR.NEAR Y: tlas the hon. gentlema n bcon sniffing savory again this morning, Mr.

Speaker? Anvwav• Mr . Speaker, tf we are going to be force d all we can do-by the way , we cannot examine estimates here now-all we can do is iust 1~ j '

,Jrmc 24, J 982 Tape No. 1713 SD - l MR. NEARY: debate back and forth for ten minutes at a time. Each member alternately,back and forth, will have ten minutes. IVe cannot ask specific questions, Mr. Speaker, our h~nds are tied. We can only get up and talk about policy or philosophy. We cannot get down to the nitty-gritty and ask why was this increased, why was this amount put in, what was this for, why did the government spend this, why arc they doing this. We cannot do it. We can only get up and talk in generalities about the various departments.

I suppose I could come back to the Minister of Energy (Mr.Marshall) , I notice that Nova Scotia is gloating now over the fact that the dispute between Newfoundland and Ottawa is continuin9 while Nova Scotia is down trying to pedal gas and possibly oil if they find any of Sable Islands to the New F.nqland states by running a pipeline from Nova Scotia down the the New England states to bring Nova Scotia natural gas via pipeline down to the United States. And while they are doing that, Mr. Speaker, they are gloatinq and keeping their fingers crossed and hoping I h.11.

Nt'Wi otuHitand wlll cont inuc warr i_ng with Ottawa. The longer we carry on the squabbling with Ottawa the more benefits are going to go to Halifax and over to Nova Scotia, the more money is going to be poured into Nova Scotia. They just signed a deal with the Government of Canada, with Pctrocan, a $250 million deal, Mr. Speaker, and that is not peanuts. And so all we are getting in this Province, I am just now talking about the Department of En<~rgy, all we have gotten so far are the evils of oil and no benefits. All the benefits are going to our sister province of Nova Scotia. 3 h I 11

June 25, 1982 Tape 1714 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. qen U ema11 may get up and say, "Well, once the ownership or the offshore management que.stion is settled we will catch up." There is H~ way, Mr. Speaker, we can catch up. They have got the jump on us now too long. There is no way we can catch up with Nova Scotia. The majority of the spin-off benefits with regards to oil and gas on the Eastern Seaboard of Canada on the continental Shelf off the East Coast of Canada, the majority of the sp:in-off benefits will go to Nova Scotia.

And alJ we will get in Newfoundland are spin-off benefits that would not be economically feasible to put over in Nova Scotia. Like there may be a helicopter base here, there may be a few service vessels. That is all we will have, Mr. Speaker. We will be merely a service centre for the offshore, a few service vessels running back and forth and a couple of helicopters. That is all we will have in this Province. The capital of the oil development in Eastern Canada is Halifax, Nova Scotia , and there is no way we can win it back. It is gone too far, Mr. Speaker.

You cannot get an apartment, you cannot rent an apartment in Dartmouth or in Halifax. You cannot rent a foot of oFFice space in Halifax or in Dartmouth. MR. MARSHALL: Are you moving there? MR. NEARY: No. But, Mr. Speaker, I would submit that the 40,000 jobs that this administration forecast in their five year plan are over in Nova Scotia, not in Newfound­ land. Mr. Speaker, I do not know if the hon. gentleman realizes the damage that he is doing to Newfoundland, to our future, with his attitude towards the Government of Canada and the Government of Quebec. Mr. Speaker, let us just take the Quebec matter alone.

The bon. gentleman has made statements inside and outside of this House, and I challenge him now to put the evidence on ::1 G i '•

,June 25, 1982 Tape 1715 PK - l MR. NP.l\RY: the '.'abL~, that Quebec offered to reopen the contract on the Upper Churchill and make substantial contributions to the revenue of this Province. They offered to participate in Ute devl)lopml)nt oJ the Lower Churchill, but that is not hard and fast. If Newfoundland wants to develop the Lower Churohill by itself 1 well then Quebec indicated they would C~ccomrnodute this Province by allowing us to run the power across either on their transmission lines or on a ne\-J transmission line that we would like to build.

Obviously that has to be done for a fee, there has to be negotiations. And the other sti~ulation was that Newfoundland and Quebec would either jointly or separately develop the five rivers in Labrador that have their headstreams , their headwaters in the Newfoundland part of Labrador and the downstream in the Quebec part of Labrador. Now , Mr. Speaker, I ask this Jlouse wbat is wrong with that? ~·!hat is wrong with this Province entering into a package aeal with the Province of Quebec? What is wrong with that?

We have to get the t .. one'' some~1here to carry out these developments. 11P.. ~').\ RS FAJ.L: l-ive it all a\•7ay. MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Speaker, that is the hon. gentleman's philosophy. The hon. gentleman is paranoid about that. I am talking about a package deal that would be in the interest of this Province that would create thousands, piled upon thousands of· jobs and be good for the economy of this Province. But every time the hon. minister mentions that he also throws in the little dart that Quebec wants to change the boundary. Mr.

Speaker, I ask the hon. gentleman now to lay on the Table of this House the correspondence between this Province and the Government of Quebec in connection ::1 r i ~:

June 35 , 1982 Tape 1715 PK - 2 MR . NEARY : with that proposal, and poi nt out to me in that c<:>rrespondence where Quebec is talking about changing the boundary. It is not there, Ml: . Speaker . It is not there . It is a fiqmcnt of the hon . gentleman ' s imagination . It is ilis little narr0\•1, b \ 1tton~·· : - down mi nd. There is nothing in the correspondence or i11 the proposal to indicate a uhanging of the Labrador boundary . Noth .ing . There is nothing in it . All 'Quebec asked for. wDs either to enter into a joint agreement. r.m. SPP.Al<RR (l'.vlHardl : Order, please ! ;lr;: 7

,Tunc 25, 1982 Tape 1716 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: If there is something in it,put the corresponder~ce or: the table of the House, and do not be making wild,irresponsible statements. MR. SPEAK~R (Aylward) : The hon. President of Council. MR. MARSHALL : Is he finished, Mr. Speaker? The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) is he finished? We are going over this, you know, the same thing over and over aqain. Look, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman there opposite happens to be a messenger for the federal government and a messenger now for the Province of Quebec.

And every time he gets up and he speaks on issues like this he is prepared to accept by rote every single thing that comes down from Ottawa with them. They are prepared to accept everything even that Lhc l'rov.i nee of (luebcc says. Mr. Speaker, look, this business that he talks about,about the attitude with- did you just hear him recount the alleged proposal made by the Province of Quebec? If we left it to the hon. gentlemen there opposite they would give every single thing away.

The eight members over there are eight little lap dogs both to the federal government and l n Lit<' I' I nvi net• u I Ouel>t'c. /\net one cou 1<1 almo~;t do a car loon, if one could draw, depicting the eight little lap dogs pulling a komatik across Labrador with Newfoundland and Labradd .r all packaged up to deliver into the hands of Rene Levesque and to deJiver the resources into the hands of the Province of Quebec. Every statement made by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) indicates once again that if they had control, and God help that they ever did handle the affairs of thjs Province, that indeed the oil capital of Eastern Canada would be in Halifax. Indeed,U1e oil capital and the action would be on the Eastern Shore of the Province of Quebec with respect to the oil industry. Indeed, Mr. Speaker, another 3 G 1 :1

June 25, 1982 Tape 1716 NI-l - 2 MR . MARSHALL : great resource, the ;Lower Churchill resource, would go back into the hands of the Province of Que.bec ,ond this is really what we are trying to protect . The hon . gentleman there opposite, over and over and over again he repeats and repeats, he has got it by heart, he_ has got it wr itten on his back, l:h~ policies of the federal gov ernment and the posi 't:ion o[ the federal government \~ith respect to this.

Our pos ition is quite firll' wi th respect to the offshore, that we \~ant to , as we repea ·t it over again, you cannot say it too muc.:h, that we want this issue to be resolved by negotiations. 'l'he federal government say that they want it resolved by negotiations. The federal government then alleged that we -put down preconditions . The only precnncl i 1: i.on t~s such , if you want to call it that, is that ownershi p be set aside , when we say that , in effect we are sayin g we want to enter into an agreement that cannot be torn up. :1 r. ' ·-1

June 25, 1982 Tape 1717 PK - 1 MT<. MI\RSlll\LL: Now is that too much of a precondition for anyone to put down, Hr. Speaker, when they are talking about negotiating an agreement? Is this a wrong precondition to pu~ for the people of Newfoundland,that we do not want the agreement that is arrived at to be torn up? Would we be acquitting ourselves in our duty to the people of Newfoundland if we did anything else? Would it be correct for us to enter into negotiations and come up with an agreement that even if the present federal government would not tear it up a successor government could at will tear it up?

I suggest to you, no. What the federal government want is they put down a precondition and their precondition is ownership be adjudicated . In other words,their precondition is they want Lu cnL< :•r into an agreement which they would have the liberty in the futu:r ·e to tear up at will. Now I ask you what is the correct position and what is best for the people of Newfoundland? What is best for t~e people of Newfoundland, Mr. Speaker, is not what the eight little lap dogs there opposite would have us follow.

They would package it up, I say, and put Labrador ~n a sled and deliver it into the hands of the Province of Quebec quicker than you could say the word 'mush'. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: And we see the manifestation of that over and over again. And this business about the major spinoffs you know, you are sick and tired of hearing what the hon. gentleman there opposite says with respect to Tlalifax, repeated sometimes by other persons who are supporters of them from time to time. That is not a fact, Mr. Speaker.

The fact of the matter is that whatever development comes to Nova Scotia for their own resources they are welcome to it and we would be very happy if Nova Scotia can develop because jt is a province t,hat is in need of economic development as well as Newfoundland, not as much as Newfoundland. ~G., 11

June 25, 1982 Tape 1717 PK - 2 t-1R . MARSHALL: But in our particular case there will be no development in Nova Scotia on the basis of the resources of this Province,and Hibernia belongs, as I say , to this Province. As much as the hon . gentl emen may want it:,and as much as his friends in Otlawd may want iL by attempting to take from us our right to that resource , they cannot , although they would if they could, th ey cannot move Hibernia any closer to Halifax.

As a matter of fact, if the hon. gentlemen in Ottawa could do it they would move Hibernia,i£ it were physically possible, and ,I say,put it right in the middle of border between Quebec and Ontario so t.hat they could prese rve their po.liticill position l.>ctt(lr . But they canno t do that, Mr. Speaker, and the fact of the matter is the resource is nearer to this Province and deve lopment will take

part in this Province . To the hon . gentleman there opposite who is prepared to give it all away for :·c ,;s 1)n~: tw h.1 s already said from time to time . r say to 1 r ·J

June 25, 1982 Tape No. 1718 so - l MR. MbRSIJl\LJ": him that this Province and this government will never give it awny. The situation is we arc prepared on the offshore to negotiate if the federal government will agree to enter into simply an agreement thc:tt will be unable to be torn up 1 and I do not think that is too much to ask. In the meantime 1 the federal government has taken the matter to court, has taken it into the Supreme Court of Canada, The · fact that in an unPrecedented action the Sunreme C?urt of Canada has decided lo hear that matter is something that has to be repeated again and again.

I have just finished reading reports of the Justice Department's estimates in Ottawa, justice and legal affairs,in which Mr. Chretien appeared before the committee. And it is really unfortunate that the infonnulion and some of these proceedings do not get publication here in this Province. The publication relates to i1 hcarinq that occurred, Issue r.TUI'Iber 89,for those members and all me;nbers of the press who would like to see it, Issue Number 0~ on Thursday, May 27th, and I would very much recommend the examination by Mr. James McGrath of the hon.

John Chretien at the committee hearing Wilicil •>CI'\11"~; "fl fl·l'i'' JrJ dJICI ~n:;llillq OVC'r to po1<JC 20. It is very, very revealing. And one of the things that is revealing and very troubesome with respect to our negotiations is that Mr.

Chretien- who is the Minister of Justice; who certainly,if anybody,should know the lc:tw of Canada and the law that c:tpplies to Canada, it should be , I think everyone will agree, the Minister of Justice·-when it was said,and we said it was unprecedented and uncustomary for this matter to be referred directly to the Supreme Court of Canada, \,·e were greeted on local radio here by Mr. Chretien saying there were twelve other incidents. He repeated that in the House of Commons, he 1 G :! I

June 25, 1982 Tape No . 1718 so - 2 MR . MARSHALL : repeated it here under examination from Mr . McGrath. Now subsequent to that th•.!rc was a crit-ic.Jl analysi s of reference of case precedence - done hy "'hom? Done bv the Tories? No , not done by the Tories - done by the la• ·• and government division of the Research Bra .nch of the Libr<1ry of Parliament at Ottawa, done by a Bruce Carson , wh o is employed up there, an independent person with leqal training . And he revie wed th e cases that had been quoted , all twelve of th e cases that llr .

Chretien ~uoted , and he says that all tr.e cas es seem to involve the centr al government referring matters for clarification in relation to law suits which cannot be appealed to the Supreme Court of Canada or wi ll not bl.! <.~J!fH !O ll.!<l to tllC S\ t[>I" C:n u.: Clllli"L .

" N•llll' PI lltl' other cases" - novl note this, f'r. ~:->eaker - ~None of the other cases involve the central government referring a matter to the Supreme Court while it is a subject of a reference which is con ·tinuing in a provincial court of Appeal:· Now I think it is a little bit of a serious natu re the fact that the Minister of Justice (?-1r. Chretien) in Ottawa would get up and quote twelve pr0cedents where this ha~ occ urred before and the 3 r; ·;

June 25, 1982 Tape No. 1719 MJ - l MR. W . ~1ARSf!ALL: research of the Law and Government Divjsion, ft•scarch lnancl1 <1nJ the Library of Parliament in Ottawa is ahle to refute them. I think t;1a t that is, you know, a mutter. of some significance. The only one at all that had any relationship, ~lthough it was not similar, was u case in 1932 called The Radio Broadcasting Act, and that is the one the Prime Minister has referred to in his telex.

But the chap who did the research indicates that The Radio,Broadcasting 1\c·t "r 1912 hilS no n'l.ltionship clt illl to the• prr.sent inst<1nce as well. 13ecause what had haunpnec1 there is that the government of the Province of Ouebec acceded and was prepared to agree to the matter being taken, in effect, out of the provincial court and directly into the federal court. MR. CAH'J'El\: So Chretien is a liar. MR. Ml\HS!ll\LL: Well, I do not know. He has been accused of various things but it comes down to two factors: Numl.H .'I. •>nc, cilhcr the Hinister of ,lustice (Mr. J. Chretit'

n) in Clt.towa was misrepresenting case precedence, which you would not expect from a Minister of Justice on the one hand,or else he was incompetent. Ejther one of the other, I would think, would have to be the unswer,and neither one or the other, I think, woulrl L'Xactly fit him for the auqust position of being Minister of Justice for Canada because the issue - rtR. SI'EAKER ( Avli~ard): ------ --------"---- Order, please! MR. Ml\RS!ll\LL: - in this is just too important to tl1e people of Newfoundland, Mr. Speaker, for representations of th<1t nature ~:) be allowed to qo without being answered. MR. S. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Leader of the O~Dosition. MR. NEJ\RY: Mr. Speaker, I am highly at the remarks of the hon. gentleman. The hon. oentleman docs not address himself to the issues. The hon. gentleman just ~ r; ~J .,

June 25, 1982 Tape No. 1719 MJ - 2 MR. S. NEARY: branches out again in his usual tirade against the Government of Canada, his viciousness, his hatLed for ~~- Trudeau, his hatred for Ottawa and his hatred for the Province of Quebec. The Premier of this Province, you know, Mr. Speaker, cannot n~fer to lhe Jwe>pJe <>r <.)ttd>L '\" as Canadians or as residents of Quebec. The Premier of this Province has to keep referring to the people of the Quebec as French Canadians. Mr. Speaker, you know, that is kind •1f, in my opinion, a bit low for the Premier of this Province.

You would expect better from the Chief Executive Officer of this Province. But, Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is that the administration is digging a hole deeper for themselves all the time. r~r. Speaker, I asked the hon. gentleman point-blank to tell us "Lf in the proposal that was put forward by Quebec on a number of occassions in recent years, if that proposal included a change of the La0rador Boundary, and the hon. qen t 1 0.111il n r.nm[) 1 etc~ l v <'Viln<'<l 1: he' 'lll L' !.H ion - <111d i l clc><'S not MR. MARSHALL: 1 wilL unswcr: that. MR.

NEARY: If the hon. qentleman wants to answer me, he can answer me now and put the document on the table of the lluuse. MR. W. MARSHALL: I willanswer it if you want me to. MR. NEARY: No, Mr. S..,eaker. I want more than just the words from the lips of the hon. gen tleman, Mr. Speaker. I want to see - I am a doubting T:1omas - :r '''c.>nt to stick my hand in the wound, the table of the House. 1 want to see the evidence put on ::1 r ·; .,

.run~ 2S ,l9fl2 Tape No. 1720 ah -l MR. \\1ARREN : right . Ml~.NEARY: That is right, that is The fact of the matter is that t lw ht">n . 'l<'lltl~·tn;'ln dOC!'; not hi:lVC ' th<' hnnl <'Vide nce . Tf he had it- and ram calling his bluff now , Mr .Speaker . The hon . gentleman has been bluffing long enough and it is time to call his bluff - if he has it let him put it on the table of the House . llere is the proposal, as I understand it ,that would be to the benefit of hl o provinces , both ~,>rovinces , not one . It is not a onc-wny street .

Do not hon . gentlemen have enough confidence in themselves to negotiate? Do they not, Mr . Speaker? \"hY are they always so paranoid and wh y are they always asking the question, 'Do you want us to give everything away?'Do they not have any c-onficlence in t~ernselves? What is wrong with taking ,, n~.t~on.tble .;ommon -scnse .tppru.tch 1.<> the:;oc· pC'oblcms und sitting dOH:t around the table and negotiating in good faith? Now is that giving something away? What is wron g with it , l·1r .Speaker? What is wrong with that procedure?

No interruptions from the other side so I w(l tild Clssum!• there is nothjn'l t~r()n() wit:h it . 1'hc only thing that is wrong with it is that if you resolve your differences t·rith Quebec , if you resolve your dit:ferences with the Government of Canada,theC'e ~1ould be no election issue in the next federal el~ction . · That is what they see wrong with it . They are continuously cnn:·yi ng on the election campaign . They have an opposition syndt·om~' . ·rhC'y •tct up .:~nd thcy ::;pc:tk ll~ i ( th<'Y arc in op;X>si tion . They are more conce ~:'ned about us than they ':lr"~

..... June 25,1982 Tape No. 1720 ah-2 MR.NEARY: are in carrying out their mandate. They are more interested, Mr.Speaker, in trying to embarrass the Opposition , in trying to twist and turn and squirm at every move than they are in taking a positive, constructive approach to these problems. And the hon. qentlemiln just did the same ·thing again and I can stand up here twenty times a day and the hon. gentleman would get up twenty times a day and squirt his venom and his poison and tell us nothing about the plans of the government of which he is the chief spokesman at the moment. MR.WARREN: God help us.

MR.NEARY: The fact of the matter is that the proposal that is before us is the development of iivc rivers in Labrador, the development of the Lower Churchill either with or without the help of Quebec - with or without. MR. MARSHALL: Where did you get that? MR.NEARY: 'T'hilt j:s in the letlc~r the hon. gentleman got from Mr. Lalonde. The hon. gentleman has not bothered to go back. MR. DINN: You do not trust Mr. Lalonde. MR.NEARY: I trust Mr. Lalonde just as far as I trust the hon. gentleman. Mr.

Speaker, the fact of the matter is that you could have five rivers developed in Newfoundland Labrador., you could have the Lower Churchill developed,and you could have the Upper Churchill contract reopened. Now how do you accomplish this? Do you accomplish it by firing guns across the border? No, Mr. Speaker. You sit down around the burqe~ininq ttlblc: ' and negotiate in good fait.h with no prccondit.ions ~ r -_; l

June 25, 1982 Tape 1721 PK - 1 MH. NEl\RY: -- - i-l.nd you come to a conclusion. That is the way the hon. gentleman's conciliators settle labour disputes in this Province, is it not? MR. UlNN: They are in the middle. MR. NEl\HY: I see,they are in the middle. Oh, I see they are in the middle of the table. I see. MR. DINN : Both sides have to sit down in f.TOOc. .Cc..l c_l. MR. NEARY: The trouble is, Mr. Speaker, if you do not do it their way, if you do not do it the Premier's way, or the - MR. Wi\lm~:N: •<~ rshall lilw. MIL NE/U~Y: - other fellow's way then you do not do it at all.

So therefore it is not being done at all. And who is suffering, Mr. Speaker? Who is suffering? The people of this Province are suffering. The han. gentleman is not suffering. He can dig in all he wants.He has the Bank of Montreal as his client down in his law practice. lie could not care less. He is getting his retainer. But what about the poor people in this Province v:ho are unemployed? And what about the people who have to abandoned their homes because they cannot pay the mortgage?

Wl1at about the people who cannot pay their light bills? /\nd wl\.1L ;;.boul the people who cannot properly clothe and feed their children and send them to school? What about these people? It is all right for that hon. crowd to sit over there with smirks on their faces carrying on a federal election campaign two or three years before it takes place, but while they are doing that, Mr. Speaker, the senior citizens, the people on social assistance, the people out of work, the students, the sick people are suffering.

Everybody is suffering in this Province because of the stupidity and the stubborness of this administration who are not prepared ~ r. ) ·i

JUne 25, 1982 Tape 1721 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: to sit down man fashion and negotiate in good faith because they have no confidence in themselves and they think they might give something away. Mr. Speaker, t~e hon. gentleman keeps saying ,'Oh,the eight over there, oh if they only had their way they would give it away.• We are not the government. The government is over there. That remark, Mr. Speaker, is just a nasty rude remark, that is all that is. It does not accomplish a thing. The present confrontation policy, the disaster course that this administration is on does not accomplish a thing for Newfoundland.

Not o. thinq. MR. MARSHALL: Yes it does. MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman says,• Yes it does.' Mr. Speaker, what it accomplishes is this that businesses in this Province are going bankrupt at an alarming rate. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: We have record unemployment. We have students who cannot find work and I would suspect the vocational schools will be empty this year because of the policy they brought in in the Budget. Sick people cannot go to hospital because they cannot afford to pay fnr thP. h~nc,~n e increase in the beds.

They are closing down hospitals. ~nd what they arc not crucifyinq t·h,1t way, Mr.~ -;pcukcr, t·fwy dll' taking out the airplanes and spraying the people out in Central Newfoundland, spraying them with 2,4,D and matacil. That is the kind of philosophy this government has. Anc: :, rlr. Speaker, :~ G ! ~~

June 25, 1982 Tape 1722 NM - l MH. NEARY: their policy is to build jails. They figure, "Well, if we nre r:roinq to have this policy, if we are going to have soc.iol ~nd economic upheaval ,let us build more courthouses ond jails. " So thc~y close down hospitals, increase the cost of hospital beds and build jails all over the Province. That is the policy they have been following. I think it is $12 million or $14 million in the last three or four years spent on courthouses and jails. Mr. Speaker, ~he fact of ~he matter is that everything in life, everything has to be negotiated.

A union manageme~t contract has to be negotiated, and a boundary dispute between two countries has to be negotiated in good faith. Even differences in families sometimes you need a third party to come in and mediate and settle the dispute. ~11<. lHNN: Maybe you coulrl volunteer Lo mediate . MR. NF:l\RY: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. gentleman wanted me I would be glad to volunteer. But there are people available who could mediate this dispute. You have the President of the Board of Trade, you have the Mayor of the city of St.

John's. you hilve the President of the Law SociGty, you have all kinds of competent people in this Province who would be prepared to mediate this dispute in the long range interests of the future of this Province. But we cannot go on the way we are going, Mr. Speaker. They are going to take Newfoundland down the economic drain. MR . nAnm : Give it away. MH. NEARY: You are the govGrnment. We are not the government. You are the government. We cannot give anything away. We could not even give the hon. gentleman away if we wanted 1 G 'l il

!Jd' June 25, 1982 ·rape J 722 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: to. The government is over there. They are over there . MR . BAIRD: And do not forget it. r.;;> • NEARY : Oh , we \~ill not forget it . But do not forget you were given a mandate to negotiate on April 6th. Do not ever forget that either . MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): time has elapsed. Order, please~ The hon . gentleman 's MR. NEARY: Thank you , Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The hon. member for St . John's North. MR. CARTER: Mr. Speake r, the speech that \~e have ju::;t h~.:~r.d and the spe ec h the hon. qc:nLI.<!m.tn q ;:~ vc just .1 1' '\~ minutes ago are probably the -=lr1 1

,lll!ll' 2'i, 1982 •rape No. J 72 3 MJ - l MR. J. CAH'I'ER: closest departure from all the canons of decency and good debate that this House has ever had to listen to. Now, I notice that the House was redecorated there during the break and we have a new carpet, but it is no acciden~ that walls behind the Opposition are still soft and p2.dded, because if they were solid and could be written on you can bet your bottom dollar that it would be scribbled all over them. So, I suppose it is just as well we do let the f0llow harangue, otherwise he would only write it all over the walls.

Now, the c:ommitt.ee system as it was dt•siqm~d, was dcsi•1ned to qive 1nor.e time to debate and not less time. I think we spent something like sixteen or seventeen hours debating for which fifteen hours of the seventy-five hours allowed for debate were taken off. But, Mr. Speaker, there was three weeks in which to hold hearings and we could have :;ilL J'n1- .u; much ;lS forty-five hours. 1n fact, last year, or the year before we sat for something in excess of thirty hours. So there is no excuse possible, for the Leader of the Oppostion (Mr_ S. Neary) to say that debate was cut off.

There was a much tjme as he could possibly want. Now, he says that various member of Opposition had to burn the midnight oil in order to keep up. I ~trould say, Mr. Speaker, they were drinking th(' midniqht nil. T cannot see how they coul~ say that they coulJ not keep,up because the various chairmen were more than ~illinn tn nccomodate them and to

schedule the meetings at their convenience and not at anyone else_ And it is an atrocious nhusr. of parliame::1tary privilege to suggest otherl'o'ise. MR. BAIHD: Hear, hear! MR- Cl\R'l'ER : Now, I have not been privy to negotiations wit.h Quebec but I certainly have been privy to ~ublic stntements that have been made by the Premier of Quebec i r ~~ }

June" 25 , 1982 Tape No. 1 721 ~1 :1 - 2 MR . J. CARTER: and tirnc an<.l time acJain he h.:ts said what we need is a global settlement. And what they mean by ... global settlement is that the Labrador 13ounda,·y would be discussed , that the Lower Churchill- Muskrat Fatls, ~very possible aspect of Labrador and the previous contracts miyht be discussed . But still there is no assurance that we \o/O UJcl get any\o~here with the Churchill Falls power. And proof of that, Mr. Speaker, is that you cannot even get anythinq over the 350 megawatts recall power that are already in the contract.

And even though the wording of the contract, as I understand it , is vague and sugqests that we muy be <lbl~, tll <Jet more n:c< lll fJII\o/l~r ·, Lho.:y .. ,·t· uludtithl "'" ,tt ·l\•mpl:s ,,, •11• court even to resolve that . And for the Leader of the Opposition (Mr . S. Neary) to suggest that we can nc9oti.:~tc with Quebec, that a 1 r, :1 I

June 25, 1982 Tape 1724 PK - l MIL t'l\l<'l'tm: n<"'<JOLi<~tNI sc•l l l<'in<'lll is just uround the corner is, as far as I am concerned deliberately misleading the House, and the Opposition can get up and make the most of that statement. I am surprised,by the way, that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) is now the spokesman for Quebec. DR. COLLINS: No point of order. No point of order! MR. CARTER: I always thought he was the spokesman for John Doyle, but I guess he has changed his boss. People do change their jobs. In fact,now that he is Leader of the Opposition his income has increased.

J: suppose, he wi I I 0~ ,!dclinq I u his house u l"cw bathrooms. Nm,,, perhaps, he can call himself a four flusher · Well,anyway,the whole thing is depressing and disgusting. And talking about negotiation, how come we cannot negotiate with the Opposition any better mnthod of discussing the estimates. All we get is the members get up and fill their full ten minutes of harangue and do not pay any attention to the answers this government are giving. My experience with this government has been that they will give any and all information that is requested of them, any specific questions illicit a specific answer.

And for the Opposition to suggest otherwise is disgusting und clis•Jraceful. I think jt is just a shame and a misuse of the time of this House. It is too bad too because we could develop and devise a method for dealing with the estimates that would be as explicit as any other House in the ten provinces. But we are blocked in our attempts by the Opposition because of the way they act. MR . ." l3AIRD: It is just a shame. Not a responsible Opposition . ., ,.., :; ' ,"1 rJ

June 25, 1982 Tape 1724 PK - 2 MR. CARTER: So I would s1~ggest, t-1r . Spea ker , ~~~hy do they not try in the few hours that are lef 1: for this debate, why do they not try, get up and ask a :pecif ic question and see if they do not get a specific answer, experiment . If they are proven to be wrong, if I am proven to be wrong I will certainly agree with them . But I know that I am right , I know if they ask anything specific they will get a specific a nswer. It is just too bad they do not know ho11. MR . BAIRD : sensible one now, - MR. CARTER: wait for a sensible question . MR. BAIRD: member for Fogo (Mr.

Tulk) . MR . SPEAKER (1\ylwnd) : Mountains . t-1R. NARREN : ' Garfield ' is going to ask a So I to1ill sit down and - with instructions from the 'J'he hon. mcmbf;')r for. 'l'orny :tl Mr . Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to speak in this Concurrence debate on resources. Mr . Speaker , I do find it very interesting_ T~is morning l asked ·t he Minister of Rurul,Agricultural and North<"rn Development (Mr . Goudie) a question conce rnin g houses that were built in Labrador Coastal communities undet" the federal ;provincial nati .ve agreement to find out ~~ha t the mini~ter plans to do with those ~ouses .

No\.,r, Mr . Speaker' · I ~9nte<1 to make sure that I am quoting the minister correctly ::~r;·.r.

,June 25, 1982 Tape No. 1725 so - l MR. WARREN: so I sent upstairs and got a copy of Hansard, the questions this morning. And what the minister said is as follows: "And wh~t we have now ~nnn ~~ a government is turn nver those housing units to th0 respective community councils in the communities who in turn will then be in a position to turn them over to the present occupant or some other person who might have an interest in that particular dwelling". Now, Mr. Speaker, that is not the correct truth, the community councils in some of the communities will not accept those housing units.

The cnmmunlty council in Nain has told the Department of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development we will not accept those housing units. Now, Mr. Speaker, to illustrate and to tell you why they are not going to accept those housing units, I have taken several photographs of those bents i nq un .i l: s ;:uaJ t h<~ n~.1son the y .:1 rc not qo i n<.J to take them is that they are not fit to live in, they are unfit to live in. And I have asked the Minister of Health (Mr.

House), in the Estimate Cornrni ttee, has he had his inspectors go in and check on those houses that another department of government is planning to turn over to the council of the people. And the Minister of Health has said no. Now, Mr. Speaker, I want to show the House those ~ictures. I have more if anyone is interested the minister,me or anyone else. Now those are the houses that people are presently living in in Nain and as you can see from the pictures of the 397 houses, l think the minister said, yes, 397 houses, roughly 40 per cent of those 397 are in the condition that those houses are in.

Now those are the houses that were bought in the early '50s, no insulation, no concrete foundations to them on~y just little posts to them, windows very, very cold. Mr. Speaker, I am going to table those two pictures, I have more if anyone is interested. ~ r ~ ~~

June 25, 1982 Tape NO. 1725 so - 2 MR . WARREN: The councils have said to the minister 's officials, 'Look, we will not acce pt those houses in those conditions: And furthermore, Mr. Speaker , just to tt ~ the whole story, in the community of the town of Nain, Municipal Affairs a few years ano, throu gh Rural Development , went in to survey lots. At the present time there are three houses on one building lot - in some cases, three houses bordering one building lot .

Now this is what is happening, Rural Development is saying, look ,we want to get out of this tight bin d so we will tun1 il over to the council and l~t the council go and tell the people,now two of you people have to move off this building lot but you can stay. And these are people who have been there, we wi 11 say, since the '50s when they were moved down from ~ r ·, 1

,)UTI(' 25, 1982 Tape No. 1726 JV - l MR. WARREN : Hebron, Nutak and Okak. Now, what the Department is doing is trying to shove this off on the people of Nain through the Community Council and the Community Council, and rightfully so, and I support them one hundred percent, are not accepting those housing units. Because, No. one, 40 per cent of those housing units should be immediately destroyed. The ~inister of Health (Mr.

House) should do his duty as Mini9ter and urge his inspectors, or make sure that his inspectors go into Nain, Davis rnlet, Hopedale, those three places in particular, and check the housing that is like this and worse and make sure that the people are not living in those rat infested houses, and this is what is happening and these are the houses that this government is trying to turn over to the people. And here we are tillkin<J about oil and gas, and what do we have? We have not even got a decent house for the people in Northern Labrador to live in.

You know, if CBC only saw those pictures, they would - you know, the houses that they showed downtown, when they had to close some of those houses downtown, they were palaces compared to those houses that the peopls have to live in. And, Mr. Speaker, I would suggest to the Minister that he should make sure that his Department will not turn over those slums, those slum houses, that is what it is, slum housing, that the people are obliged to live in. And, you know, Mr.

Speaker, it is because - and there is money, there is money through the federal Provincial Native agreement for better housing for those people and this is what the Department is trying to turn over. Now, there are some good houses. As, I said, 40 per cent of the houses are this kind, but there are 60 percent much, much better houses. I can see nothing wronq with the ~r;·.~

June 25, 1982 Tape No . 1726 JV - 2 MR. WARREN: Department turning over those good houses to the Council and the Council turning them over to the individuals, but, not those houses that the Minister's Department are trying to shaft over on the Community Coun cils in the district . Now, M.r. Speaker, earlier I asked - No, I think I would like to stay on Rural Development for awhile yet concerning the housing . The same thing , Mr . Speaker , applies to Davis Inlet . The same thing applies to Davis Inlet. Tn Davis Inlet , 70 percent, 70 percent of the housing is in the same condition as those are in . And, Mr.

Speaker, I lay thes0 on the table of the House and anybody can view them. So , T would strongly suggest, I would strongly suggest to the Minister of Health (~tr. House) that this is a health matt er. This is a health ;lfl'Jq

June 25,1982 Tape No. 1727 ah-1 MR.WARREN: matter and it concerns the Department of Rural Development trying to get the burden off their shoulders, saying to the town council, you take over this housing. r think it is scandalous, I think it is ridiculous and I think it is inhumane for the Department of Rural Develo pment to expect the town council in Nain - and some of the councils have agreed to do it,but one thing for sure is that the Nain town council are standing up for their rights. They are not going to take over those kind of buildings from a department that wants to get rid of them.

So I am glad that the minister has answered as truthfully as he can with the information that he has received. But I want to make the position clear, that the Nain town council has not accepted the hous es, they are not going to accept the houses and one of the main reasons why they are not going to accept them is becaus e they are not fit for human habitation. They want to get rid of them. We have a house there where a gentleman about forty-eight years old lives. He hus only one arm and he is living in this hnns"' with only a plain mattress , no stove, no bed, the walls smashed down and everything inside.

I have another picture here, Mr. Speaker, of that house, that house that this individual is living in. And I suggest that the minister and his department should use the money more wisely and get a housing project started. There is funding, there is $20,500 of a grant for people to build houses up there. And by the way, t-!r. Speaker, there is another i tern ·· AN HON. MEMBER: Mr. Speaker. MR.WARREN: - if my time has not elapsed. 3 R 1• 11

June 25, 1982 Tape no. 1727 AH - 2 MR. WARREN: There is another item of very much concern, Mr. Speaker, and I am sure the minister will be shocked to learn of it, because I am sure if he knew ~~ definitely would not happen. Individuals 3Fi I, i

June 25, 1982 MR. G. WARREN : those grants 1 Tape No. 1728 MJ - 1 along the coast who qualify for the $20,000 or $22,000 grants 1 whatever is available to construct their houses 1towards new housing; they have been told by members of·his department, 'Look, you havegot to buy your materials from one of two places in Happy Valley - Goose Bay',. That is the only place they are allowed to buy the materials, they have been told that. So, one of the ladies called me up and she said, 'Can I buy from Stokes in St. John's' .

And the answer I gave her "I'Jas, 'f~y dear', I said, ·~1herever you can get it the cheapest, naturally you buy it.' And the next day I got a call from an offical saying 'Look, they have got to buy it in Happy Valley - Goose Bay.' And who have they got to buy it from? I will not mention individual names,but this is what they have been told. So, I think, the minister - MR. SPEAKER (A yl ward) : Order, please! MR. WARREN: I am sure that the hon. minister was not aware of it 1 so I ~wuld like for him to probably struighten up the situation. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order!

The hon. the Minister for Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. SOME HON. MEMBERS: ,1R. J. GOUDIE: Hear, hear! ':"here v1ere a very interesting number of comments made by the gentleman representing Torngat (Mr. G. Warren) although not all the information that should be available to the House Has r-1ade available by the hon. gentleman.

If I can just briefly go into a short history about housing programmes as it relates to native communities, or more correctly, designated communities in this Province, particularly in Labrador, the Jnly incorrect thing that I said in my answer this morning to the gentleman's 31)1: )

June 25, 1982 Tape No. 1728 MJ - 2 MR. J. GOUDIE: question was inadvertent in that I said during the last ten or twelve years, 397 housing units were built, it was longer than that. I realized that after I had given the answer.

The programme began in the early 1950's, not just of constructing houses in these designated communities but providing other services as well. ~nd r was living in Labrador at the time, did some interesting interviews, when I worked with CBC,with some of the occupants of these homes and I understood that the federal government had put up the money for these homes, had designed them and implemented the programme with very minor innutby the provincial qovernment.

Because when the programme first began there was Sl million provided by OttaHa 1 in 1952 _ I think, to ~rovide some of these services to these designated communities. I went down and looked at some of these homes because they are in my district.

They put up these little two by four shacks with no insulation, no foundations to them, no hot and cold running water, no water or sel•7er services, one stove to heat the whole house - that was a wood buring stove, some of these homes being two level homes - and, as a matter of fact, near the end of t;le first year, the first winter, some occupants became so frustrated that they set up their tents inside ~he house, which they had been used to living in for 6,000, 7,000 or 8,000 years, whatever it was, they lived in Labrador, set their tents up inside the house, occupied that, tore out the insides of the building to burn in the stove. ~ Fi [. ·~

June 25, 1982 Tape 1729 NM - 1 MR. GOUDIE: And that was the only way they got some comfort and someway to heat their bodies during the Winter months. AN HON. MEMBER: That was the way the house was built? MR. GOUDIE: Because of the way it was built, there was no insulation, as I have said, no hot or cold running water, no anything. AN HON . MEMBER: MR. GOUDIE: I have seen better wood sheds. So what we have done since that time, Mr.

Speaker, in quite a number of communities- I suppose if one wanted to cast blame I am not particularly interested in doing that in these discussions but if one wanted to cast blame, who was responsible for moving all of these peorle from all of the other outside communities into the centralized areas? Again, what is the point of going into that? I think the operative points are that these 397 units which have been built over the years, and many of them are very nice bungalow and other types of homes, Mr.

Speaker, which will compare - I know in the community in my district, in Sheshashit, there are homes there which are equal to many homes you will find here on Elizabeth Avenue, Duckworth Street, or any other street. So there have been improvements.

Now,the system put in places when these new homes were being built was that the federal/provincial aqreement provided the cost of construction, $40,000, $50,000, $60,000, whatever it was, and the occupants who moved into these homes 1 for a period of ten years I think was the original scheme, wouldpay $20, $30, $40 a month rent and after ten years would own their homes. A fairly reasonable cost I think. But I believe, and this is only opinion or speculation on my part, that one of the reasons that these homes are not in as good a condition ;1 r; ;, ':

1.. -- June 25, 1982 Tape 1729 NM - 2 MR. GOUDIE: today as they perhaps might have been, was the lack of pride of ownership by the occupants . Governme nt owns these homes. It is only costing us $10 , $20 , or $30 a month, wh y should we worry? Why should '"e keep them up? Why should we maintain them? So during the most recent agree ment which was signed a little over a year ago, :iG ~li

Jun e 25, 1982 Tape 1730 PK - l MR. GOUDIE: between the two governments, federal and provincial, a new system was put in place and a new management team put in place , if you will, to handle this particular scheme. An outright grant now of $19,500 is available to residents of these communities as a fairly substaintial contribution to the cost of constructing a home. And I can use the example of one gentleman in the community of Makkovik, a certain Mr.

Winters who has built, I call it a mansion, I do not know what he calls it, but it is certainly a very adequate home, and,if I understand correctly,the gentleman did not even take advantage of this particular programme for a number of reasons,pride in the other direction, if you will.

But until the end of 1981, there had been 100 applications from these seven communities in Labrador,from individuals in these communities to get into either the construction of new homes,using this grant and some additional funding available in other programmes of either federal or provincial governments, ~nd many of these applications have been considered and many have been approved. I cannot say tod~lY whether or not all 100 of them were, but there is a fair amount of interest in that particular programme.

In addition to using that amount of money as an outright grant towards the cost of constructing a new home,a homeowner presently living in one of these more dilapidated structures can take this $19,500 grant and also avail of other programmes to fix up his or her home. With a new agency such as NLHC becoming involved in the housing programme in this Province as it relates to designated communities,similar action was taken in the :1fl;, ;:;

June 25, 1982 Tape 1730 PK - 2 MR . GOUDIE: transfer of fish plants from our department where we had no expertise in the operations of fish plants, neither did we have any nreat amount of expertise in operating housing programmes and are transferrinq t.nem to ot.wr mot~' appro priate departments. And in order to do tha ·t we , as a government ,felt the decision should be made to turn over these 397 dwellling units to the respective Community Council. Now whether or not they accept them is entirely up to them , I guess .

But these houses, these units ,by the way ,can be made available to the homeowner for a nominal fee of $1 , and you have outright ownership. I mean ,that is stated policy . So not all of the aspec ts of this particular housing programme a.re bad I do not think. I realize, the hon . member realizes that there are quite a number of dilapidated homes in designated communities not only in his district but in mine as well , it has been an ongoing problem.

But we think with the new system put in pl ace, \~ith the $19,500 grant either to go towards tl=le cost of ne w construction or to fixin~ uo tneir ~resent dwellin~s - 3 r; 1! 7

June 25, 1982 Tape 7731 NM - 1 MR. TULK: ---~-- Can that be used for renovations as well? MR. GOUDIE: Yes, it most certainly can. Any portion of that $19,500 can be used for renovations, to upgrade an existing structure. We feel it is a fairly good and effective programme. If a horne costs more than $19,500 in one of these communities,obviously the homeowner, or the person who constructs the horne, is going to have to come up with additional financing.

But we also feel with that added responsibility of having to borrow or put in one's own funds, whatever form the additional money takes, it will have the added incentive of perhaps more pride,we hope,in the new structure, or the upgrading of the old one, and will be maintained more consistently for a longer period of time and we will not have the situation existing where there are delapidated homes in a number of communit ies. As it relates to health inspection, I cannot even comment on that. My colleague, the Minister of Health (Mr. House) would more appropriately address that particular issue.

The final point that the hon. gentleman made about people in these communities being dictated to by the staff of my department, that they have to purchase materials from either one of two suppliers in the Happy Valley-Goose Bay area, I am not aware of that at all. My first reaction would be that they may receive their materials a little more quickly if they were to do that. But that again is only a suggestion on my part. If that particular activity is going on 1then it will certainly be investigated.But as I have said,this is the first time it has ever come to my attention. :1 R ;, A

~'\ June 25, 1982 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Mountains. MR . WARREN: Tape 7731 NM - 2 The han. member for Torngat Yes, Mr. Speaker, the minister did 9~-"e a history of the housing programme in Labrador. However, I think he is still missing the main poin t of my argumen ·t. The main point is that some of those houses are on buildinq . lot .s - one building lot with three houses on it. And t\V'o of those houses are shacks that people cannot live in.

And secondly, if the individual person does t.ake the opportunity or take advantage of the $20,000 grant, I think the han. minister realizes that those people are the lowest income earners in the \V"hole Province. They are the lowest income earners in the whole Province, those people who are living in those houses. so what is the good of taking a $20,000 grant - a $20,000 grant would not even repair those houses.

And if they did repair them, if they did repair them, either the council or the Department of Rural Development have to tel l them, "You cannot repair it right here because you are on someone else's land." So it is just a complete schemozzle. ~11 /.. rt

June 25, 1982 Tape 1732 NM - 1 MR. WARREN: And until the department can go into those communities and do the job that they are supposed to do - I mean, like we said, we can blame it on Joey's resettlement programme if we want to, but it was still done under a govern­ ment policy. So I do not think we should pass it over to the town council, to wash their dirty linen. And this is what ·they are expecting, the town council to wash their dirty linen. Now, Mr.

Speaker, on another matter with respect the minister responsible for consumer affairs, but it is goods that are in the government store that is operated by the Dep;:u-tment of Rural Development. There a while ago the Minister respons~ble for Consumer Affairs released a survey that his department presumably had done and the indication was that goods along coastal Labrador, in Nain and Davis Inlet, and I think it was Hopedale and Postville, these were the four towns done, that the goods were cheaper, the supplies were cheaper than they were in Happy Valley­ Goose Bay.

So last week I took the opportunity of checking twenty items and I found out just the opposite of what the minister found. So, okay, I will just give him an example and the first prices will be in Nain, in the qovcrnment owned store in Nain, and the second prices will be in the Co-op in Happy Valley- Goose Bay. The Co-op in Happy Valley-Goose Bay is comparable to the Hudson Bay Company or anyone else there, so the prices are pretty well reasonable. And it is on the same item, the same brand, the same size container and everything else.

Corn flakes in Nain $1.14, Happy Valley-Goose Bay $1.09; carrots, a two pound package of carrots AN HON. MEMBER: the whole order? ::~r.r.;n

June 25 , 1982 Tape 1732 NM - 2 MR. WARREN: No, I am only qoing to list about ten of them, Mr. Speaker, just about ten . Car~ot, a two pound bag of carrots in Nain is $2.62; and in Happy Valley­ Goo~~ Bay $1.79. MR. TOLK : A difference of 85 cents. MR. WARREN: Okay , eggs, medium sized eggs, in Nain $3 .05 a dozen, in Happy Valley-Goose Bay $2.09. MR. TULK : A difference of 96 cents. ::lfi ;\J

June 25 1 1982 Tape 1733 JV - 1 MR. W A R~EN; Grapefruit, grapefruit. You know most everybody likes to have a grapefruit once in awhile. MR. POWER: Good for the diet. MR. WJ\RHEN: ---- -- Good for the diet, okay. One grapefruit in Nain will cost you $1.13. One grapefruit t-Till cost you ~1.13 in Nain and it will cost you 57¢ in Happy Valley - Goose Bay. Now, I will go on the other side. I will go on the other side. Listen to this one now. Milk is 76¢ in Nain, that is tinned milk, Carnation, and 67¢ in Happy Valley Goose Bay. Table salt 65¢ in both places. Table salt - the same thing.

Now, to just tell you what happened, The Minister's officials went in there last January or February, and I was told this by the staff in the store in Nain, that they went in and they did, for example, apples in both places. Right! Now, they found apples were cheaper in Nain than they were in Goose Bay. Now, I- ·will tell you what happened. The apples that they saw in Goose Bay were apples that came in three or four days before they saw them. The apples that they saw in Nain were the ones that they had been selling there since October.

So these were October apptes, like ten or twelve in a bag, some of them,were soft and this was the comparison that the Minister's department was making. so actually, when this survey came out the other day - when the survey came out the other day I was in Nain at the same time - the people of Nain were furious, and they said, look, for jumpins sake will you do something about it? Will you let the media know that it is not true. We are paying through our teeth for things that are here. It is not true they said, do something about it.

So what I did, I got someone in Nain to go along with me and we did a true survey in Nain and then I called Happy Valley - Goose Bay, spoke to the Manager of the Co-op there and we did one there on the same items and this is what we came up with - it shows that along the Labrador Coast things are more expensive than in Goose Bay. Now, Mr. Speaker, for some reason I like presenting ~fl. S ?

...... June 2S 1 19 82 Tape 1733 JV - 2 MR. WARREN: exhibits to the House . I gave three of fou~ pictures earlier . The Minister of Health (Mr . House) was not in his pla ce this morning, bu t I asked the ~resident of the Council (Mr . Marshall) about the li fe span of items on the shelf and the P:r?esident of the Council said, well, it should come under the Federal Government . But this is in a Prov±ncial Go ve rnment store. So I brought along an exhibit, Hr . speaker, :1 fl '; =t

June 25, 1982 Tape No. 1734 SO-l MR. WARREN: I purchased in Nain when I was up there last week. Now this is supposed to be some kind of dressing, but I should shake it up, I suppose, and see what is in there. Anyway here is what it says,' best before January 19 7 8' . MR. PATTERSON: They obviously do not use much dressing. MR. WARREN: No, they may not use much dressing but it should not be on the shelves either. Now it is a very fantastic price only seventy-five cents. MR. TULK: Only seventy-five cents? MR. WARREN: That is right, only seventy-five cents.

Now here is something that is four years old - January 1978 -right? MR. ROBERTS: ---Over four years old. MR. WARREN: Over four. Almost five years old - four and a half years old. Now I do not know, it still might be as good as any you would buy today, but I am very doubtful. I am afraid to open it, I am afraid it might explode. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WARREN: So what I would like to do - MR. TULK: Give it to the Minister of Health ( Ml-. IIOLI!3L' ). MR.

WARREN: I was going to say that probably the Minister of Health could take this and get this inspected, or get someone to check it out and just see how good it really is. But be careful, there might be some kind of poison in it. So when we have our next government meal probably we can all use this and see if it works, okay? But anyway these are some of the things - MR. BAIRD: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER( McNicholas): A point of order, the bon. member for Humber West. 3 1\ :_; IJ

June 25, 1982 Tape No. 1734 SD-2 MR. BAIRD: Mr. Speaker, I understand that there are no exhibits to be distributed in the House? SOME BON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. WARREN: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I said when I started off I was going to table this bottle of fantastic mixture, and I will table it at the conclusion of my remarks. MR. SPEAKER( McNicholas) : That is in order if he tables the bottle. MR.WARREN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. So as I said, Mr. Speaker, I would only betooglad to bring down some other items that are up there since 1977,1978,1979.

And I understand from theminister's department that the shelf life does not affect it very much. But I believe the minister should make sure that items like these, especially when they are four or five years - MR. OTTENHEIMER: ( Inaudible ) . MR. WARREN: At least I got the attention of the Minister of Justice ( Mr. Ottenheimer), and he is quite concerned about this as well as I am.

So I would suggest to tl~e Minister of Justice very strongly that, number one, when he sends his officials to do a price survey of goods along the Labrador Coast, he take into consideration that fruits and vegetables have to be flown in there in the Wintertime, it is the only way to get them in there, and if he goes up in January the 3 f\ ~; s

June 25, 1982 Tape No. 17 35 PK - 1 MR. WARREN: fruit an~ vegetables are what was delivered there in the last boat in the Fall of the year. So, if you are going to do a fair price estimate, you do it on the age of the commodities and I think we can come up with a fair price. Number two, I think the Minister of Consumer Affairs should make sure that in any stores, not only in my district, but any stores in Newfoundland and Labrador, that you would not find products on the shelves that you are going to sell to the consumer for which the over four years shelf life has been expired for four years. So, Mr.

Speaker, I will leave this on the table of the House and I would suggest that we be careful of what we eat. MR. STAGG: MR. WARREN: SOME HON. MEMBERS: What is the brand? The brand is Kraft. Oh, oh! MR. BAIRD: Put that on, that grows hair. MR. SI'El\KER (McNicholas): The hon. Minister ·Of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This is a very interesting exercise this morning, I think, with various exhibits taking place and so on.

I can tell the hon. gentleman that I have bought children's cereal in Happy Valley-Goose Bay over the years I have been there in which the kids wanted to enter contests and the contests were three years outdates as well So that particular problem, on that particular salad dressing or whatever it was, does not apply only to the community of Nain. Just let me explain to this hon. !louse, Mr. Speaker, the type of things that we go through as a department in operating retail stores in communities in ~ f} :, ~

L-~- June 25, 1982 Tape 1735 . PK - 2 MR. GOUDIE: Labrador , a function which we should not be performing in the first place, I might add, I think private enterprise should be in to that . AN HON. MEMBER: Right on ! MR. GOUDIE: And as a matter of fact in the store in the Nain itself we have discontinued quit e a numbe r of lines of hardware, of furniture, and so on, to allow the business community to get i·nto the retail of that particular commodity. We have already turned over the fish plants, as I have said, to people who know the fishing industry,for them to operate.

We are turning over the houses ·to housing people who know how to operate that particular programme. I would like very much to see a co-operative formed on the Coast of Labrador to take over the retail of food . That is not government's business. We moved in there in the 1950s when the Hudson's Bay Company decided to move out,after they had made their fortune the way they normally did and went on their way with their money in their pockets. In any event, Mr . Speaker, just as one example o·f the cost 3R S7

June 25, 1982 Tape 1736 NM - 1 MR. GOUDIE: of food on the Coast. The hon. gentleman referred in his survey to qrapefruit, I believe, there were other commodities as well, and potatoes, this kind of thing. Two years ago I had just a little private survey done myself of the cost that we as a department, as a government, go through. If the hon. gentleman from Fogo (Mr. Tulk) were living in Nain two years ago and he wanted a 100 pound sack of fresh potatoes, demand it to the point where we had to fly it in, that 100 pound sack of potatoes would have cost him,if we had recovered our costs, $125.

That is the cost of air freight alone, never mind the cost of the material itself. In addition to that,Labrador Airways is being subsidized to the tune of-what?- $485,000 a year. One example of the cost of operating these stores, Mr.

Speaker, th~re was a store in my district up until three years ago, in the community of Sheshatshit, exactly the type of store that the hon. gentleman was talking about in Nain; by closing down that store,at the request of the community,by the way, not by our own initiative but at the request of the community, by closing down that store the community of Sheshatshit was able to save $300,000 subsidy a year and spend it on other proqrammes. Now I would suggest, although I do not have the figures in front of me, that in the community of Nain MR. TULI~: Y.lhere did the money come fr0~? MR.

GOUDIE: That is the money that government was putting in in terms of subsidizing the cost of food such as the potatoes that I am talking about. "U<. 'L'ULK: (Inaudible). MR. GOUDIE: Where? In Sheshatshit? There is another store, the Hudson Bay Company in that particular community and the community of Sheshatshi t felt t~1e money would be better spent if they bought their groceries at the Hudson Bay and used the $300,000 they would save in other social ~Fl:~R

June 25, 1982 MR. GOUDIE: or whatever. MR. TULK: Tape 1736 programmes, or economic programmes That was the reason for closing it down. (Inaudible). NM - 2 MR. GOUDIE: L Not with another store in the community, n;o. The Hudson's Bay sell their goods and recover the cost of their services. We have been trying to operate our stores for the last couple of years, Mr. Speaker, on a cost recoverv basis. We have not been able to do that,obviously,when we have to subsidize air freight costs and so on the way we have been in the pas·t.

But in the purchase of items, which is one of the problems referred in the hon. gentleman's comments and that whatever it was, salad dressing, we as a department have to purchase our supplies for every depot along the Coast of Labrador through the public tender process. Now,how does that grab you? By the public tender process. I could have as many as 450 or 1,000 different tenders operated on one commodity and the supply can come from anywhere in Canada, including Vancouver, British Columbia.

Now1 how do you get all of these items co-ordinated together in one spot, get them down to the docks here, get them on the boats, ship them to Goose Bay, transship them from Goose Bay up to Makkovik, Davis Inlet, Nain, Hopedale, Postville, Rigolet, wherever the store is, there is ;IR.'~li

June 25, 1982 Tape No. 1737 MJ - 1 MR. J. GOUDIE: no damage occurring to them, with no loss of materials?Andyou try and judge the quality of these particualr items, Mr. Speaker. Let us just assume that a smmlir~r in Toronto is supplying food to one of the stores on the coast of Labrador. It conveniently arrives just three or four days before the final boat for the season departs. Now, let us assune it is a year outdated. What am I supposed to do, Mr. Speaker? Not send supplies to the coast of Labrador, or do we take a chance on what we have and get that up and see if people will buy it?

These are the types of difficulties we go through. It is very easy for the hon. gentleman from Torngat Mountains (Mr. G. Warren) to say, 'Minister of Consumer Affairs, Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. J. Goudie) get up there and correct the situation.' I have made a few corrections over the last three years. As an example, two years ago, durinq the winter months,! travelled to two or three communities along the coast and discovered in one of our warehouses, in Hopedale, that there were purity biscuits there which had been shipped to the coast of Labrador on the motor vessel Kyle.

Now, that will give you an idea as to how long ago they had been shipped up. They had not been sold, but they were stored there, until I got there~ They have now been burned, since that. There are a few little difficulties, Mr. Speaker, in supplying goods to people on the coast of Labrador. Some of them are being overcome. We are constructing new storage facilities for vegetables, for fruit. We are constructing new "''arehouses, we will be opening new stores this Summer in a couple of communities on the coast of Labrador. The system is improving.

There is obviously aninconvenience and a great deal of frustration caused to people in these designated communities on the coast of Labrador 1 but I will 31l!=:ll

June 25, 1982 Tape No. 1737 MJ - 2 MR. J. GOUDIE: tell you one thing, Mr. Speaker, there has been a vast improvement since these programmes were instituted in 1952,and improvements will continue to take place, both for health reasons and for other humanitarian reasons. So, all I am suggesting is that yes, there are problems, the problems are being overcome. If I could sent my purchasing people out to the various places around St.

John's or any other community in this Province, to take advantage of sales which are put off to purchase items and send them up to the coast, fantastic: we could offer goods in the costal stores for a third of what this gentleman is talking about. So we cannot do that. MR. TULK: MR. GOUDIE: from The Public Tender Act. MR. BAIRD: (Inaudible) . To have our department exempted And then they will be screaming. MR. GOUDIE: Everyone screams about the abuse already to The Public Tender Act, Mr. Speaker, There is nothing I can do about it, my hands are tied. It is as simple as that. MR. B. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (McNicholas) : MR. TULK: The hon. the member for Fogo. Mr. Speaker, I must say, I found the back and forth between the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. G. Warren) and the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. J. Goudie) to be ?erha:as, somewl1at enliqllte.ninq to all members of the House and it is perhaps one of the better pieces of debate that we have heard. I would like now, though, to perhaps, take a look at another problem :=tllR

June 25,1982 Tape No. 1738 ah-1 MR.LUSIJ: in this Province,and I am going to talk about something in the Department of Fisheries,and that is the problem of marketing fish. I think it is no secret that the biggest single problem in the Newfoundland fishery, and I think the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.Morgan) will agree , is in the area of marketing. For example,the glut problem that we are now experiencing,and hopefully are about to overcome, is definitely directly related to marketing rather than perhaps to the processing industry itself.

The minister now tells me,for example,that as a result of his opening up the buying of fish,the Nova Scotian processors are eager on our doorstep to buy fish, and the Newfoundland processors,he tells me 1are now saying perhaps they will make some accomodatio~ I think that shows exactly what we said on this yesterday, Mr. Speaker, to be true, that the minister, if he choses,could indeed pressure the fish processors in this Province into buying what is suppose~ to be a surplus of fish,and I am again glad to see that that is happening.

But I want to talk about the Sal tf ish Corporation .. 1 noticed,. that in the Premier's reply, a statement of June 18th on the Province's response to the Royal Commission - that is something we have been waiting for for a long time, the Province's response to the Royal Commission on Fisheries that was established in 1980-I noticed that the recommendation of the commission,as everybody knows 1was that the sole right of saltfish export as provided in the statutes established in the Canadian Saltfish Corporation be continued without amendment.

And the Premier's reply to that - I presume it was the Premier's reply and 1 I .1RF1:J

June 25 ,1982 Tape No . 1738 ah-2 MR .LUSH : suppose,the minister's - was that we are not £ully supportive - and I quote from him -"We are not fully supportive of the commissions 's recommendation that the Corporation retain the sole right of saltfish exporting as provided in its present statutes. We believe there is room for greater flexibility,for involvement by the private sector,and we will .approach the federal government on the matter.

By advocatinq greater marketing flexibility the Province would not wish to see the Corporation abolished,but ,as has been indicated,such a position differs from the commission's recommendation that the sole right of the saltfish export remain with the Corporation ." Mr . Speaker, in view of the problems that we have had \o~i th marketing in the last couple of days ,and it is a problem with marketing regardless of what the minister stands up and says. I agree with him that the fish processors in this Province have to be able to hand le and have to agree to handle small fish as well as large. I agree ~ R F\ I

June 25, 1982 Tape 1739 PK - l MR. TULK: with him totally that that has to be done. And I agree tha~ if you put pressure on them -as I said to him yesterday ,he holds the licence in this Province,and if he puts pressure on the fish processors in this Province,there is no doubt in my mind that they will find a means of overcoming the glut problem that we are having. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I think the greatest single piece of legislation that has been passed, perhaps,in the history of the fisheries in Newfoundland, the greatest single piece of legislation that has been passed was the legislation that created the Saltfish Corporation. I think it is the greatest single move by two governments, by the provincial government at the time and by the federal government at the time, regardless of whether it was - I am not even sure what the political stripe was at the federal level. I think it was the greatest single move by the governments in the history of the fishery in this Province.

Now last year we heard some disturbing comments from the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), and we are now hearing what I believe is a disturbing comment by the Premier in his reply in his response to the Royal Commission on Fisheries, and that is that we open up the door for the fish processors in this Province to again start exporting saltfish.

And the minister in the House yesterday, I believe it was yesterday or the day before, spoke about something else that we all know has been happening in this Province for years,the different companies going down to the United States market and competing l..ri th each other, trying to cut each other's throat, so to speak. I sincerely believe that this response, this policy statement that has .1 G ;; ··

June 25, 1982 Tape 1739 PK - 2 MR. TULK: been given by the Premier that they are going to allow some flexibility,or they would wish to allow some flexibility in the export of saltfish, is just the foot in the door that the fish processors in this Province are looking for.

And I would urge the minister, I would urge him with every ounce of strength that I can find and will that I can find,that after the problems we have had for the past two or three days, a week and-a -half with marketing in this Province, and that is what it is, i:t is marketing, it eventually comes down to marketing, the two or three problems that we have had,the problems with the glut that we have had and the problems that we have experienced with marketing over the last year, instead of saying we will allow some flexibility to those processors to export saltfish in this Province, and I believe again ruin the markets for saltfish, that instead of that he come out foursquare on the side of the Canadian Saltfish Corporation, and that,indeed,perhaps he extend their mandate or create a similar structure for the market of fresh fish in this Province.

MR. BARRETT: Rubbish ~m. TULK: Mr. Speaker, it may seem like rubbish to the member for St. John's West(Mr. Barrett). I would wish that somebody would give him another little sniff down there and put him out completely. 'lfj::;c; ,I .

June 25, 1982 Tape No. 1740 SD - 1 MIL 'T'ULK: Because I believe that the minister will stand and give a sincere answer to this question, to this whole thing, and perhaps may indeed have some doubts in his mind about the statement that has been given by the Premier. I would hope that he would certainly take it under serious consideration again. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas}: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, just to take

part in this debate for a few minutes, just to respond to some of the comments on the fishery, first of all may I say that maybe I should update the House at this time and members interested on the present glut situation. I did not make a Ministerial Statement this morning, I felt that was not necessary because we were still working on it.

The situation now is that the companies despite the fact, the Newfoundland companies and I guess this morning on some of the media and on Open Line I made some stinging attacks on the companies and I intend to keep up that because I am thoroughly fed up with the way the companies are handling the fishing problems in this Province. They keep on blaming the fishermen for poor quality, they blame the fishermen for providing poor quality at the same time they blame the goverments for lack of policy or the policies they have - both governments.

At the same time they blame the poor economies of the different countries for the we~ker markets and poor markets but, yet,what is happening- The companies themselves the problems are right in their ball park. They have inefficient operations, many of them inefficient operations, they have poor management, very poor management and they have unco- ordinated and unorganized marketing efforts. They are out competiting with each other in the market place. Now, we have some good companies doing the right things. Not all the companies are in the same category. There are ~ f) ;--: 'l

June 25, 1982 Tape No. 1740 MR. MORGAN: some good companies doing the right things but the majority of the companies, the large companies in particular, they keep on corning to us looking r~r money. Oh, do they come looking for money when they so - 2 are hurting financially. But when we need their co-operation to help the fishermen, do we get it?

We very seldom get it­ Because the fact is,on the Avalon Peninsula right now the companies are more concerned with their own ends, of processing caplin, which is not providing jobs,by the way, very few processing jobs, processing caplin because it is more lucrative for thern,rnore so than to process cod. The companies told us yesterday, and I told the House in answer to a question from the member who just sat down,that they would not get involved in buying fish from those fishermen on the Avalon Peninsula and trucking it anywhere to the plants in the Province. They could not do it.

Well now, today, in .the last two hours, we got at least three companies from Nova Scotia, they are going to come to the Avalon Peninsula, buy fish, truck it with ice all the way back across Newfoundland, go across on a ferry boat - MR. TULK: And that is the smaller quality of fish. MR. MORGAN: - and go into Nova Scotia with the s