Volume 3 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 3rd. Session VERBATIM REPORT FRIDAY, APRIL 19, 1974 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 48

Th~ House met at 10:00 A.H. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. ?-'R. SPEAKF.R : Order, please! PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: The. honourable }!ember for Green Bay. HR. A. P,. PECl:FORD: Mr. Spenkcr, I ask leave to present a petition on behalf of approximately 150 residents, voters of the Tm."Il of H.ohert I i; Arm. The prayer of the petition is that the tm,m be provided with sufflcient fun<ls to begin the installation of a sewerage system for that town. About ten or twelve years ago the Town of Robert's Arm completed a water systrm which has been functioning extremely well - for a small amount o[ money, as a matter of fact.

Now with the town growing over the last four or five years at a tremendou& pace and because of the topography of the town, especially in the centre part of it where you have very flat land which is not altogether porous, we find that in the last year or so a lot of raw sewage has been flowing on toP. of the ground in that to~m. Robert's Arm is by population the second largest comrTUnity or town in the District of Green Bay, with a population of about, by the . 1971 Census, 1,243 I think it was. It i.s grow:lng. About three or four years ago they constructed a new subdivision.

With the increased forestry activity in the district, especially in that part of the district,ovcr the last eighteen months or so wa find that there are many other people who wish to build. At the present time there is even a shortage of building lots in the town. The council are at present trying to acquire more land to make it available to people to come and live there. This is a very pressing situation, There are I suppose, Mr.

Speaker, five or ten at least very pressing areas or towns in the province where sewerage facilities, not water and sewerage, some places they have water, like Robert's Arm, where sewerage is of dire importance right now. Considering the fact that there will be a health hazard here in the suT1I111er, as there was last year, I think it is incumbent 3748

Tape 1202 (night) PK - 2 upon government at this time to provide sufficient funds for at least the first phase of a four phase programme for the Town of Robert ':s Arm. There are some great problems in other areas of the town in try- .. ing to inctall sewerar,e because of the kind of land it is.

The cost is going to be i1ell over $500,000 to install this system. lt is the feeling of the residents, by the prayer of this petiUon, that if a beginning were made, this present year, on trying to eliminate the most serious part of the ~own problem that they would be and I would be pleased and that the other three phases could come in over the next three years. I heartily endorse the prayer of this petition and ask, Mr. Speaker, that it be placed on the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relntes. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bell Island. MR. S. A.

NF.ARY: Mr. ~peaker, we on this side of the House, of course, support the prayer of the petition, We think it is a very reasonable request on the part of the residents of Robert's Arm, Sir, which is a community that is growing very rapidly. It is a very thickly populated COIIIIDunity, About eight or ten or twelve years ago the former administration installed a water systeN in that community, Sir,, at great expense to the public treasury - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible, MR. NEARY: Pardon? AN HON. MEMBER: It was a loan. MR. NF.ARY: Ir was what? AN HON. Mf.\ra:ER: It was a loan. MR. KEARY: A loan? MR.

ROBERTS: Almost every water and sewerage system that was ever installed - MR. NEARY: Sir, I can tell the member it may have been a loan, Sir, but it is heavily subsidized by the province, as the Minister of Finance well knows.

April 19, ]97l1 Tape liW2 (mon1ing) PK ·- 3 Fut, Sjr, all during th1s session we have ha<l petitions pre­ sented in this honourahle House. Sir, I do not know if they 'do any good or not. The member \-,ho just presented the peti.ti.on on behalf of his constitutents in RoLcrt's Arm did not seein to Le very enthusiastic about it. As a n,atter of ,fact, I got t.)tc impression the member had e defeatist attitude, I do not blame him, Sir, after l j steninr. to the Mi.n:lstl·r of Finance in his budget spreech a little Rome of the statf;111entH "-'C heard the mi.nistlir make here yesterday.

The !Unister of Ftnance is in1,ensitive to the real needs of the people of this province, Sir. I doubt very much if the Membei: for Green Bay is going to be al,l e to get old Scrooge to budge and give him the few dollars that he needs to get this badly needed sewerage system started in the Community of Robert's Arm. I wish the member luck but, Sir, I doubt very much from the attitude of the Minister of Finance that anything is going to be done this year to resolve that very serious problem in that community or in any other community in Newfoundland for that matter. HR. SPF.AKER: Are there any other petitions?

ORAL QUESTIONS MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder,now that the Premier is back in the llouse,if he would indicate to the House if he has agreed or will azree to meet a delegation from Point Leamington concerning the road in that connnunity,when he visits Grand Falls this weekend? HON. F. D. ?-\OORES (PREMIER): It has already been agreed, Hr. Spcal-:er. MR. NEARY: I am glad to hear that, Sir, because they were talking abour rioting down there I think. Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Education,is ther~ anybody here who can speak for the Minister of Education?

I want to find out what is going on out in my friend's District of Port au Port. There has been a layoff and perhaps the Minister of Finance could answer the question. There has been a layoff of ten or twelve upgrading instructors. Does this mean the school is being phased down in Stephen­ ville? Is it going to be closed or is this a temporary thing? What 3750

April 19, 1974 Tape 1202 (morning) · -PK - 4 is the situation concerning the layoff of these instructors in Stephenville? Does the Minister of Finance know? Treasury Board knows every thing that goes on. MR. SPF.AKER: Order, please! Hm:. J. C. CROSBIE (~'.INI STER OF FINANCE) : Mr. Speaker, the honourable 11:entlernan will have to direct h1.s question to the Minister of Education when he is available. HP.. NFARY: Sir, I wonder could the minister tell us when the Minister of Education is going to be available? Over half of the ministers are - }~ • SPr.AKER: Oi:der, please! MR.

NEARY: - ahsent from th~ir seats again today. MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKP-R: MR. NEARY: ¥.R. SPEAKER: Order, please! ¥.r. Speaker, how can we get answers to questions - Order, please! - when the ministers are not in their seats? Order, please! I am sure the honourable Member for Bell Island is well aware of the purpose of the question period. lt is not to make speeches,which he certainly insists on doing. MR. NF.ARY: Well could Your Honour inform me if there is anything in the rules to make it compulsory for ministers to be in their seats during the oral question period? HR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I am sure the honourable Member for llell Island !a· also well aware that he is not to direct que3tions towards this Chair. ?-:R. lJEARY: Well, Sir, could I direct a question to the Hon. the Premier? Would the Hon. the Premier inform the House that we are going to have more ministers in their seats today to answer questions during the oral question period? Certainly the Premier has set such a bad example - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: - what else could one expect. MR. SPF.AKf.R: Order, pl~sse: MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct A question to the Minister of Fisheries, the great Arts and Culture Centre Namer. Could

April 19, 1974 Tape 1202 (morning) PK - 5 he inform the House, Sir, just what this government are doing, \lhat his department is doing concerning cod tongues in Newfoundland? AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudihle. MR. NEARY: We were shocked the other day to hear about - MR. SPFAKF.R: Order, pl~ase! MR. NF.ARY: We were &hocked the other C,_ay to hear about the importation of cod tongues into this province. MR. SPF.AKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: What is the minister doing about that problem? MR. COLLINS : Cut theip out • l-$.. NEARY: "Cut them out." Mr.

Speaker, this is .a very seriously matter• Would the minister mind answering the question. Now do not be so foolish. Well, Mr. Speaker, I will try my luck over there on the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. What has the minister done about a request from the Newfoundland Fish Food and Allied Workers Union concerning rents for fishermen and trawler workers living in subsidized rental apartments in Maeystown and Trepassey? HON. B. R. V. EARLE (MINISTER OF MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS AND HOUSING): Mr. Speaker, a very satisfactory meeting was held with the union on the matter a few days ago.

The Chairman of the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation at present is working out a recormnendation to· me on the matters which we discussed, When the decision has been made that will be divulged. HR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the minister could give us some indication when the decision will be-taken? When we can expect a decision? Will it be a week? A month? Six months? MR. EARLE: As soon ~s possible. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Manpower undertook yesterday to get me-some information on the wildcat strike at Come By Chance involving 141 workers of Guildford's Limited.

I discussed this matter, Sir, with the minister before the House met and the minister tells me he does not have the information available at this moment, but an hour or so from now he will have a full report. I wonder, Mr. Speaker, if the minister could be given permission of the House at that time to 3752

April 19, 1974 Tape 1202 (1DC?rniug) PK - 6 give us his report when it is brought in, because I cannot get the answer now - the minister will not have it for another ho11r. Would that be satisfactory to the House? HON. W. W. MARSHALL (MINISTER 'WITHOUT PORTFOLIO): Mr. Speaker, the honourable Member for Bell Island I think he i -s und&r the impression that he is running the Hi;,use but he has not yet achieved that particular desire that he wishes. But the fact of the matter is, if he has giver . notice of a que,stion to the Hon. Minister of Manpower, the Hon. Minister of Manpower as soon as he cap answer it will.

He will .impart the i.nformation to the honourable me.mber for Bell Islmid. Re shall infqrm the press, if he should feel it is 1:1ewsvorthy enough, in the interest of the public that the press should want it, and that hit. You lttlQW this is the oral question period and the honourable Member for Bell Island apparently feels he is running the House o( Assembly and I think he 3753

April 19, 1974 Tape no. 1203 Page 1 - MW should be aware of the fact that he is not. MR. NEARY: Mr. ~peaker, I hope I have the same leeway _ as the minister who just made the statement, MR. SPEAKER: Order please: MR. MARSHALL: Sit down: MR. NEARY: This is the oral question period and the minister just raised what I considered lo be a debating point and I intend to answer him, Mr, Speaker. The minister has abused his privilege, Sir. MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker: The Hon. Member for Bell Island is entering into a debate in the question period. A question was put and it was answer~d. MR.

ROBERTS: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker: There was no question put to the gentleman from st·. John's East. The question was put to the Minister of Manpower. The gentleman from St. John's East, with Your Honour's approval,obviously, quite properly . entered into the debate. All my colleague wants to do is to reply to it. I think he should be alloved to do so. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! The Hon. Member for Bell Island asked, I think, in essence, whether or not when the report, re the strike in question, is available to the Minister of Manpower, whether or not he would be permitted to answer it.

I recognized the Government House Leader in the feeling that he was going to give some clarification as to whether or not the government would give its consent to have this report presented. He did not do that. The Bon. Member for Bell Island then attempted to reply to the Member for St. John's East and the whole matter has been drawn into somewhat of a debate. I am sure if the Hon. Member for Bell Island wish to have the report presented by the member, then it is merely a matter for the Chair to put the question as to whether or not there is unanimous consent. MR. NEARY: Thank you very much.

That is precisely the answer I vas looking for, Sir. I thank Your Honour for giving the Bouse the information instead-of being sarcastic and abusive like the Minister without Portfolio, Sir. 3754

April 19. 1974 Tape no. 1203 Page 2 MR. SPEAKER: The question has not been put whether or not the Hen. Member for Bell Island has unanimous consent. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, at the time the report is available, by leave of the House we could have the report presented in the House. I understand that the question has to be put. That is the answer I was looking for, Mr. Speaker, not snide remarks, sarcasm and abuse from the Minister Without Portfolio, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: Order please: MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the grim labour situation in the province at the present time. would the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations give us an updated report now on what is going on around the province? The roof seems to be caving in. MR. ROUSSEAU: I would certainly like to. First of all I do not I agree with the premise that there is a grim labour situation in the province, Right now there are four provincial - I am talking about provincially •.. The grim federal strikes are certainly grim. tQe postal workers and the ceasing of the operation of airlines. In the province now we have four strikes.

There is a bad one at Labrador City. As I mentioned yesterday, we will be having meetings in about forty-five minutes. There is a walkout at Buchana, there is a walkout at Baie Verte and there is a walkout at Come-by-Chance and there are many, many sets of negotiations going on between companies and unions.quietly. There are a number going with the assistance of conciliation officers. There will be a great number of settlements .reached in this province without any resort to work stoppage. In these four situations- certainly any strike is a bad strike. Mr.

Speaker, let us put it in the proper perspec_tive and suggest that with four strikes going on in the province,'with the number of contracts that are constantly under review and being negotiated between the company and the union or with the assistance of the people in the Department of }fanpower and Industrial Reladona, I do not think the aituation is as grim as some people would like to paint it to be. 3755

April 191 1974 Tape no. 1203 Page 3 CAPT. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Manpower. ls he aware or is there anr proof or foundation to the rumour that there is a great number of workers resigu1ng from the I.O,C. in.Labrador and returning back to the island? MR. ROUSSEAU: I am not aware of it except from what I read in the newspapers. I talked to the union and they have suggested that the situation is not that.

A lot of people are coming out, of course, as they normally do when in a strike situation when they have no indication of how long the strike will be and then will go back in when the strike is over. There are some people, of course, who may be up there, temporary employees for a short period of time, who may not want to stay. 'They may just come out and find other employment. I will be meeting with the people this morning. I have no indication that the situation is bad.

I have discussed it but I only have some general comments that I would not like to pass on because they are personal opinions of individual people and I might be misleading the House by suggesting in reality that there are not many leaving or there are because I do not really know. I will know this moTD.1.ng when I talk to the union. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Hon.

Premier would tell the House if there is any foundation at all to rumours that some of the key personnel at the Churchill Falls Hydro Development, employees of the Churchill Falls Corporation, are quitting their jobs b~cause of the government take over? la there any truth at all in this? Can the Premier enlighten us on that matter? MR. MOORES: Not to ~y knowledge, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Transportation and Communications, my old kissing cousin over here. Sir, he was not in the House yesterday when I asked the question about the St. John's Harbour Arterial Road.

There was a story yes~erday, I think, in one of the papers that there was going to be a delay. Is there any truth to this? 3756

April 19, 1974 Tape no. 1203 Page 4 What is happening concerning the arterial road? ls it going to go ahead this sunnner? Is it going to be completed or has it just been put on the shelf indefinitely? What is the situation now concerning the St, John's Harbour Arterial Road? HON. T. P. HICKF.Y (Hinister of Transportation and Communications): Mr. Speaker, I have no indication to indicate that the project is shelved. It certainly will not be compleLed this year.

To my knowledge, the project will continue as planned and hopefully will start pretty soon, ORDERS OF THE DAY: On motion that the House go into Committee of the Whole on Supply, Mr, Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY: HR. CHAIRMAN: Shall 401-01 carry? MR. NEARY: Kr. Chairman, you may recall that when the House rose at 11:00 P.M. last evening, I was continuing my few remarks directed towards the Minister of Finance, Sir, who does not seem to be listening to reason these days. He seems to be completely insensitive to the real needs of this province.

I ended up my remarks last night, Sir, by making a statement that I think the minister violently disagreed with and that was that in my opinion, Sir, in my humble opinion, the minister's budget, the increase in taxes, especially the one cent added on to the retail sales' tax bas bad a psychological effect on workers in this province, Mr. Chairman.

Whether the minister cares to admit i~ or not,it did have a psychological effect and it was the thing that tipped the scales, Sir, that set off this (partly responsible.not fully responsible) chain reaction of labour strife that we are going through in this province at the present time. Kr. Chairman, one would want to be blind, deaf and dumb or all three not to realize, Sir, that the people in this province are finding it most difficult and in some cases cannot cope with the high cost of living, One would expect, Mr. Chairman, for an administration 3757

April 19, 1974 Tape no. 1203 Page 5 for a party that built up the people I s hope.s and expectations in t~o provjncial elections, one would hope that that party when it came to power would do everything within its power to help the people whoput them there, the ordinary Ne.rfoundlanper, the ordinary working-class man and woman. llut now, Sir, that is not the case. The only policies that we have seen so far from this administration, especially from the Minister of Finance, are programmes that help the few and not the masses of our people, Sir.

There are programmes that make the rich get richer and the poor get poorer and certainly we had a classic example of that a little over a week ago when the Minister of Finance announced these increases in taxes. Now the Member for Labrador South may be bored wlth all this debate. He may think it is a lot of bull but, Sir, the people of this province do not think it is bull. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: If the Member for Labrador South c~nnot participate 3758

April 19, 1974 Tape No. 1204 in debate then that is his business. He has all kinds of chances. His a?senteeisrn is almost as bad as the Premier's and that is saying something. MR. CHAI!'~-fAN: Order please! HR. NEARY: But, Sir, the people of this province - NM - l MR. CHAIR'-!}_;{; Just so that the day gets off on the right foot so to speak, the member for Bell Island is falling into the bad habits which he was brought to task for on several occasions last night, being irrelevant.

Certainly the comments concerning the member for Labrador South are totally irrelevant to this debate and I suggest that he get on with the debate that is relevant, MR. NEARY: The member for Labrador South is probably irrelevant to this House but, Sir, the situation is this, Sir, that the Min1.ster of Finance last night left the impression, or yesterday afternoon, I am not sure which, left the impression that we were only going to get from Ottawa in the current fiscal year $9 million. A $9 million increase in the - AN HON. MEMBER: More than that. ~- NEARY: No, that is only in the equalization grants.

That is only for oil and gas. Now, Mr. Chairman, the minister only told us half the story-because remember what prompted the minister to make that statement, Sir, was my suggestion that additional revenue from the Government of Canada, this fiscal year 1974-75,in equalization Rrants would be close to $28 million, somewhere around $26 million or $28 million, of which $9 million will be as a direct result of the Government of Canada's oil tax policy or taxes on western oil. So I was right, Mr. Chairman, I was right. The minister comes in and tries to leave the impression: Oh!

We are only going to get $9 million this year when in actual fact, Sir, we are going to get from Ottawa about $28.2 million more than we got last year. A.~ HON. MEMBER: On account of oil. MR. NEARY: Not on account of oil, I did not say that. What I said 3759

April 19, 1974 Tape No. 1204 .l'iM - 2 waff, Sir, ma:lnly because of the increase or partially because of the :1.ncreasP. in the oil tax and what I suggested., Mr. Chairman, was that this $28.2 million could have been used, a part of it could have been used, at least the oil tax part of it, the $9 million could have been used to offset an increase in taxes or it could have been used, Sir, to reduce taxes in this province especially on gasoline and heating oil, as was done in other provinces. So, Mr.

Chair111an, let us make it perfectly clear, let us not let the Minister of Finance get away with only telling half the story, clouding the issue; $28.2 million, Sir, is the estimated increase in equalization grants for this province in this fiscal year of which about $9 million will come from the tax on western oil. The minister cannot deny that. Why did he not use some of this money, the same as they did over in Nova Scotia and the same as they are doing in Ontario, to offset an increase in taxes: This was an unexpected windfall, Sir.

Last year the minister had how much from Ottawa in equalization? $24 million. ~IR. ROBEKTS: Over and above the ongoing increase. MR. NEARY: Last year the minister had over $24 million dumped in his lap by Ottawa, saved his scalp. This year he had an extra $9 million. It was totally unexpected. What would the minister have done if Ottawa had not imposed this tax on western oil? Ottawa is up there, Sir, they are just like Santa Claus. They are not the Easter Sunny, Santa Claus. The minister cannot resist the temptation, every opportunity he gets, to etick the darts into Ottawa.

What I would like to know is how- long more they are going to tolerate that in Ottawa. They are not of the same political persuasion as the honourable gentleman and I would say that they have been very tolerant so far, Sir, to put up with the abuse that has been heaped on them from this honourable crowd since they formed the adl!linistration. So, Sir, that is a letitimate proposal, a legitimate argument. There is a good case, a sound case, a valid case, Sir, for using this $9 million, which is a part of the $28.2 million we ate going to get 3760

April 19, 1974 Tape No. 120• · NM - 3 from Ottawa this y~ar, additional funds, a strong case for using that to offset the one cent increase in the retail sales tax because it amounts - it will probably be $9 million or $10 million or $12 million as the Leader of the Opposition stated yesterday, soi t would be the equivalent of what the minister anticipates to eet by the increase in the sales tax. He should have given this matter very, very careful consideration, Sir. The point I am making, Mr.

Chairman, is that all the avenues were not explored before the minister came into the House and announced these increases in taxes. Mr. Chairman, you know I saw the minister yesterday in probably one of his best performances, tell us that the reason that the $14 million current account was transferred over to capital was because it would reduce our borrowing for that year. What hogwash! ~r.

Chairman, I could not believe my ears when I heard the Minister of Finance make that statement, Sir, you do not use current account to stick up a building, to put in water and sewerage, you use your current account to amortize the loan, to pay. off the bond issue over a period of twenty, thirty, forty, fifty years. What difference would it have made, Sir, by tacking another $14 million onto the debt of the province? This crowd since they took office have been borrowing at the rate of $1 million a day I think it is. Is it $1 million a day? MR. ROBERTS: $1. million a day. MR.

NEARY: $1 million a working day, $1 million a day. Not bad for a province that was bankrupt before that - MR. ROBERTS: The debt in two years has gone up twenty-two per cent. MR. NEARY: The Leader of the Opposition reminds me that the debt of this province has gone up twenty-two per cent since this administration took over. It is just not done, Sit. In no jurisdiction that I know of do you take a surplus, take a surplus out of current account and transfer it over to capital account to keep your borrowing down. It is just not done. It is not sound reasoning. It does not make sense. That $14 million could 3761

April 19, 1974 Tape No. 1204 NM - 4 mnke sense. That $14 million should have been used, could have been used to offset an incriease in taxes. No, the Minister of Finance did not see fit to use either one of these methods to hold the line or even to reduce taxes. So I made him another suggestion yesterday and he poked a little fun at that. The minister is not listening, Sir, not listening to the people and you know, Mr.

Chairman, one of the worst mistakes that an administration can make is to build up people's hopes during an election campaign and then knife thenin the back, knife them in the back when they get in office. The next time the people of this province have an opportunity to go to the polls the Minister of Mines and Energy will know. He will find out much to his dismay that the people of this province are not going to put up with it. Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Finance could have used the countervailing savings that I pointed out to him yesterday.

He could have gotten his $10 million or twice $10 million and he could have used countervailing savings, Sir, to decrease taxes or at least maintain them at the level that they were in the 1973-74 fiscal year. I am not going to go throµgh all the examples of extravaganceandwaste that are in that budge~ of the minister, Sir. They are there. I have another opportunity to talk about these matters when we get to the Budget Speech, I am not going to go over them again. I did give the minister a few examples yesterday but all he did was he thought it was funny, thought it was funny, Sir.

Well the people of this province do not think it is funny that they have to pay additional taxes. They just cannot make it now, Mr, Chairman, they cannot make ends meet. I would say, Sir, that the ... minister's Budget has had a psychological effect .. on workers of thiA province and that is why we are seeing so much labour trouble and strife in this province at the present time, The minister can deny it all he like, All they needed was one little thing, Mr. Chairman, to push theuover the hill, to tip the scales and the minister did it 3762

April 19, 1974 Tape No. 1204 the Wednesday before last when he brought his Budget down in this House. I had a new and 3763 NM 5

April 19, 1974. Tape 1205 (Morning) RH - 1 slighly different version of Nixonian and Nearyonian, I guess it is economics this morning and mathematics and as long as he is prepared to put forward these silly arguments, I am prepared to counteract. supposing we use up the whole seventy-five hours on the first item in the Depart­ ment of Finance. First, the honourable gentleman said that the one per cent in­ crease in the sales tax had a psychological effect on the workers of this Province. Now, Mr.

Chaii:;man; that is just ridiculous on the face of it but I do agree with the honourable gentleman that that one per cent increase did have a psychological effect. It had a psychological effect on the members of the opposition who thought that because there had been a slight tax increase that they had some issue that they could really use to stir up the people of Newfoundland and create more mischief. They have to win their campaign to get back into power. That is where the psychological effect is, a tremendous psychological effect on the members of the opposition opposite.

The psychological effect is even worse, Mr. Chairman, because they are discovering it is a non- issue. As Sir Val Duncan said at one stage in our negotiations about BRINCO, "It was a non-point", it is .. a non-point. Honourable members are discovering it is a non-point, that the people of Newfoundland are not seriously upset by that tax increase, that small tax increase.

There may have been psychological upset when honourable gentlemen opposite taxed the chocky bars and the soft drinks and when they raised the income tax five points in 1969 and when they raised the gasoline tax to twenty-five cents a gallon and when they raised the sales tax to six per cent and then they made it seven per cent. There -might have been a psychological shock then but there is no psychological shock now because the people of Newfoundland know that this government is spending money carefully, spending it wisely. They know that their services have to be carried.

They want their serv.ices carried on and improved and they know that they have to make a contribution towards paying for them and they are prepared to do that when they see a government at work trying to give them value for their money. 3764

April 19, 1974. Tape 1205 (Morning) RH - 2 ' So the only psychological effect is not on the working people. of Newfoundland, it is on, it is a trauma, a psychological tra\DD~ suffered by the members of the opposition opposite who are shocked and dismayed to discover that the people of Newfoundland are not listening to their catcallings and their caterwaulings and their howlings and their yowlings because they can see how insincere they are. On the one hand we have "Cool-Handed Steve" who is now on an economy kick, Mr.

Chairman, trying topersuade the House that there are , tens of millions to be saved in the estitnates when ordinarily every day the welkin rings, the radio tubes spiffle with 'his yelps and yowls and howls for more spending. While the honourable "Cool-Handed Steve" is calling for economy, I turned on my radio this morning, Mr. Chairman, and there is .. "Hot Fingers Eddie'' and "Hot Fingers Eddie" is taking the opposite tack. "Hot FingerF Eddie" is on the radio saying that the teachers are right, their contract collective bargaining agreement should be opened up, they should get more money this year.

Then there is a rumor that CUPE are going to ask for their contracts to be opened up, the hospital workers, despite the fact that last year they got an increase over two years.of eighteen toforty per cent. There is a rumor, not even confirmed yet, that the hospital workers might ask for theirs to be opened up and ·11Bot Fingers Eddie" iR on the radio saying, "Yes, they should be opened up. Yes they -should get a lot more," while at the same time they are in this House trying to pretend to the members of the public, the people ·of Newfoundland, (in this House)that there are all kinds of economies to be made.

I Well, if we want to open up, if we listened to the suggestions • of the honourable Leader of the Opposition, his mischevious and insincere sugge•tion and open up all of these contract• and put them all up dispite the fact that they were signed and there ~re generous increases provided in them, if we want to open them up, it will cost a few million more in our budget. The people of Newfoundland know who will have to pay for it. They know who are the ultimate payers of it. 3765

April 19, 1974. Tape 1205 (Homing) RH _: 3 So it is just not washing with the public. On lhe one band we have got Steve now trying to save every nickel. If he stepped over a nickel you know what would happen to the nickel, he is on such an economy kick at the moment. The rest of the members of ·the opposition screaming for more, spend more, give more here, do more there. Now that is just not convincing,the people of Newfoundland are not buying it. They are disgusted. They are appalled with the behaviour and the insincerity of the views expressed by the honourable official opposition opposite.

That was his first point; the psychological effect. Well it has had an awful effect on the opposition. Yesterday we heard from three leadership contenders. The Leader of the Opposition is. a leadership contender. He is not a leader yet. The member for Bell Island, contender, the member for Hermitage, con­ tender, he has been waiting in the wings for some years but now he is coming to the fore. He is coming up fast; the dramatic victor in Hermitage district. He rung victory out of the jaws of triumph. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Thanks to Crosbie, . MR. CROSBIE: Ah!

If Crosbie had gone there the honourable gentleman would not be in the House today. He prayed on his hands and knees every night, Mr. Chairman, "Please, God, keep Crosbie out of the campaignt" His prayers were answered and Crosbie did not go near Hermitage. We now have the honourable gentleman in the House, He is a great adornment. Three, we heard three of them yesterday and the fourth leadership contender is somewhere south of here, somewhere south but he will be back.

The fifth contender is on Forest Road making his plans and he is hurtling back and forth between Russwood and Forest Road cooking up schemes for next fall. AN RONOURABJ.E MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: I am just coming back to the point now. MR. NEARY: I do not care, Mr. Chairman. Yes, on this side of the House. MR. CROSBIE: I mean we can talk on this item forever. Now that was the;psychological effect on the - It is stirring up the leadership cauldron. I That is the psychologi~al effect. 3766

April 19, 1974. Tape 1205 (Morning) RH - 4 Now the honourable gentleman said that there had been - listen to the honourable Roger .-that there had been; he say our revenue was up $28 million from the Federal Government. Well, that just shows that the honourable Leader of the Opposition has done some subtraction and so on and ~iven the honourable member for Bell Island the figures. Yes, that is right. Our revenue is up from the Government of Canada, $28 million, no secret, right in the budget. It might have been a secret a few years ar,o because a budget disclosed nothing,but it is no secret in this budget.

Yes, our revenue from the Government of Canada is up $28 million. Our revenue from provincial taxation is up $31 million. Our revenue from other provincial sources is up $5 million. If we add those up, $28 plus $31 plus $5, it is $64 million. Fantastique! $64 million it is up. Now, look at our expenditures and they are up net on current accounts, $74 million and net on capital account another $4 million. It is $78 million. So our expendit~res are up more than our revenues. Where are the savings? The honourable member says there are savings. Where are the savings?

He mentioned a couple of million dollars yes­ terday he said we were saving or pretended saving. Now if our expenditures are going to be up over ·our revenue and they are up over our revenue despite the tax increase because I am includin~ in the revenue the $14 million 'from the tax increase. If we had not done that, we would have had expenditures up $78 million and we would have had revenues up only $50 million. We would have had a deficit on current account. The honourable gentleman talks about surpluses.

He has a new theory now on how_ look, there has not beQn in twenty-five years in Newfoundland a budRet with a surplus. 1'here has not been a surplus in our whole twenty-five years and there was no surplus last year. Do you know what the deficit was last year, Mr. Chairman, not a surplus, the deficit? We had to borrow $168 million of which, I am sorry, $157 million, $35 was debt retirement. So our deficit was $122 million less this; $122 million was a bud~etary requirement. 3767

April 19, 1974. Tape 1205 (Morning) RH - 5 There never has been a surplus and our deficit this year, our borrowin~ requirements, $133 million. We have never had a surplus. It is just divided into current account and capital account to try to show what the operating costs are as compared to what is being spent to create new facilities. That is all. That is all and you have to look at the whole budget together and when you look at it we have a deficit every year of over $100 million,and the gentleman says there is a surplus. Not only that, Mr.

Speaker, but this year one item alone increased over last year by $11 million is interest. It is going to cost us $11 million more this year in interest than it did last year, $79 million all together. So there is no way that the honourable gentleman opposite is going to persuade the people of Newfoundland who are far cleverer than he thinks-the people of Newfoundland are far cleverer, smarter, shrewder than the members of the opposition think. They see through this insincerity. They see through these inconsistent arguments.

If I were really in good voice today, I could really expand on this ,_,... but 80M kind of germ got over here from the opposition. It has · given me the flu. Now, what else was I going to say? I thought I had more to B•Y.• I have run out of notes here. So, Kr. Speaker, the point is 3768

April 19, 1974 Tape no. 1206 Page 1 - ~ that despite the best efforts of gentlemen opposite, the people of Newfoundland have accepted this budget as necess~ry ~nd it is popular. I hav~ been on "Open Line" and I have heard their response. I will be on "Open Line" next Wednesday in Grand Falls. MR. NEARY: I will be on the other one. MR. CROSBIE: Well there will be nobody calling the honourable member. If the honourable member is on the other one, it is a bad morning to be on. They are all going to be listening to the one I am on. I am going to be on with Freedom Black or whatever his name is. Freeman White, is it?

We are going to be on and we are going to discuss the issue seriously. The people of Newfoundland want the issues discussed, not all this flapdoodle that the opposition are getting on with. Oh, I hope the Premier is merciful on th~m and that he does not ~a~l an election in the next couple of weeks because if he should they a~e finished. In every nook and cranny of this province, they will be pouring out to vote against what they have heard from the opposition in the last two years in this House.

I hope and pray that the Premier takes mercy upon the poor, miserable wretches opposite and does not call an election this year. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, for the information of the general public, Sir, the minister will be on one open line and I will be on the other in Grand Falls,on Wednesday morning I think it is. I will be on the moat popular one of all, the most popular open line in Central ~ewfoundland. We will aee who gets the most calls, Sir. We will find out, Mr. Chairman, if the people of this province are concerned.about the increases in taxes. MR. CROSBIE. KR. NEARY: A bus load from Bell Island.

We will find out how shrewd the people of thia province are, how they can see through the minister's devious scheme to increase taxes in this province , unnecessarily. The people are shrewd enough. They are ' shrewd •. The minister is right; the people of this province are shrewd, Sir. They have served their apprenticeship after twenty-five year• of Confederation. With the exposure they have had to the communications 3769

April 19, 1974 'Iapeno. 1206 Page 2 in this province and the educational system, they are shrewd, Sir, and they are a little shrewder than the minister gives them credit for. Mr. Chairman, what is happening is that the people are asking the same questions that lam asking in this honourable House and I can get the answers to them. Why waste $3 million of our dollars on unnecessary Confederation banquets and bridge toumaments and beauty pageants? Look, Mr.

Chairman, if the minister came into this House and said that we have no choice, we have trimmed the estimates as much as we can, we have taken out the fat, the deadwood and we have taken out the extravagance and the waste and we do not have any choice; · there is no way we could carry on without an increase in taxes. then the people of Newfoundland would say yes, everything else is going up proportionately so the cost of operating government is going up,and the Minister of Finance and his administration have done the best they can and so we accept the fact that they have to increase the taxes.

But this is not the case, Sir. Ministers are jetting all over the world, spending hundreds of thousands of dollars out of the public treasury. Join the 'Iory Administration and see the world. 'Ibey are buying jet aircrafts. They have the rural developaeut give-away progra11111e. I could go on all the way down the line, Sir. Mr.

Chairman, I challenge the Minister of Finance now to come with me in front of the television cameras of this province and let us take this set of estimates, thia great document with the Tory colours on it that he brought into this honourable House the Wednesday before last.and let he and I (he can bring anybody he wants with him, He can bring any of his officials with him) sit in front of the television cameras of this province and let me go through the estimates with my harp pencil and say to tlie minister: 0 is this necessary? Is_this i~ the best interests of the people of this province?

Let the minister answer in front of the television cameras. The minister knows that what goes on 3770

April 19, 1974 Tape no. 1206 Page 3 in this honourable House is completely irrelevant to what goes.on in Newfoundland. Only about one-millionth of what is said in this honourable House is reported. Sir, we are going to ·have to get better co:11111unications with the people of this province. The Minister of Finance would not get away with some of the tripe that we have heard in the last couple of days in this honourable House. I challenge him now, Sir, to sit down and let us go through it, item by item.

I say to the minister: Is it necessary to spend one-half million dollars for the government to have its own little aircraft for flying them around the province and up to Ottawa and up to the Mainland whenever they feel like it? Is it necessary to have all the staff? Is it necessary for the Premier to have a press agent, $17,000 or $18,000 a year? I would ask the Minister of Finance that in front of the television cameras, expose it to the people of Newfoundland. I would like to see his answer then.

One would not get the same answer from the minister then that one would get in this honourable House beca~e, as he said, the people of Newfoundland are shrewd. They would be able to see whether he was bluffing, whether there was any phoniness, whether there was a phony ring in his answers. He can get away with it in the Bouse, Sir. Perhaps a handful of people would come in hnd sit in the public galleries. Mr. Chairman, this is what we should do, Sir, and thi~ is what I will be doing on Wednesday morning in Grand Falls.

When the minister is over apologizing and trying to defend the administration's budget, I will be over pointing out the extravagance and the waste in this budget. I will keep a record of the calls. I hope the minister will keep a record of his. MR, PECICFORD: The honourable member ia going out to campaign? MR. NEARY: I am not campaigning out in Central Newfoundland, Mr. Chairman. I am not going out after· the Member for Green Bay who was pretty good to me over the weekend. I have no ill-will towards him. I am not going to try to knock off his seat. I am aura there are a number 3771

April 19 • 1974 Tape no. 1206 l'age 4 of people down in the member's district. there are a number of people. Sir. who are riled up. who got their dander up 'frith these increases in taxes. Mr. Chairman, these taxes were put on without any consideration at all to ,a person's ability to pay, It did not make any difference. Sir, if you were a millionaire or if you were a welfare recipient, It is all the same. no relief for anybody.

The poor, old welfare recipient, the poor,old person with the low income. the middle income, the middle-upper incomes, opting out today, Sir. because they cannot take it, They are all driven to tranquilizers; they are giving up. No wonder we have so many strikes, People cannot make ends meet; they cannot clothe their family and feed them properly. What an air of pessimism there is in this province at the present time. Sir. There is no doubt about that. Mr. · Chairman, If the Minister of Finance cannot detect that. he is not reading the people properly.

He is misinforming his own colle~gues because what the minister is really saying, Sir, when he says that the people of this province have accepted his budget, he is trying to convince his colleagues because they are getting the flak and the backlash from these increases in taxes. The minister could have done better,in my opinion, Sir. I am not going to keep repeating this over and over again because they are not going to listen anyway.

The Minister of Finance will stand up with a little humour, dance his usual jigs, all we need is a little violin music when he is waltzing around, get a few laughs from the other side and then take his seat and we will try to put forward sound, logical, reaaonable proposals and they fall on deaf ears, Sir. One ia knocking his head on a atone wall and one cannot win with this crowd, Sir, and it is about t1'ite they started listening to the people of this province because, Mr.

Chairman, the next time the people of this province get an opportunity to go to the polling booth, Sir. the Minister-of Finance will find out how they feel about his new budget and how they feel about the Liberal Party in this province. 3772

April 19, 1974 Tape no. 1206 Page 5 tIR. ROBERTS: The minister seems to be out, I assume . enjoying a cigarette. I do not know if he wants to reply. No, he does not want to say anything more in response to what has been said by my colleague. Well let me touch on a number of matters, Sir, which I think are relevant to the minister's salary and the consider~tion of whether or not this committee should give him his salary. First of all, Sir, let me deal with the matter the minister stated a couple of years ago that came to light recently where, I submit, be has been less than accurate in his prognosis.

Let me refer Your Honour to what I am sure is Your Honour's favourite bedtime reading, as Your Honour is wafted to sleep by the gentle odours that come across fr0111 the linerboard mill when the wind is the wrong way, Your Honour upon the hill, looking down on the people, doubtless takes to bed for consulation the Budget Speech of the present Minister of Finance on May 31, 1972; quite an odoriferous one it was. 3773

. ·,.· April 19 • 1974 Tape 1207 P1C - 1 Let me entertain Your Honour by reading, in case Your Honour has forgotten some of the golden words which appeared on pages (24) and (25) of that document, "Health Sciences Complex at Memorial University"- the Minister and I quote "I must now devote some time to outlining the position of the Health Sciences Complex at Memorial University since it is going to be a very heavy expense.: on the people of this province both with respect to its operating costs and its capital costs.

The picture is not anywhere as rosy as was painted by the last Minister of Health in the Liberal Administration, the present Leader of the Opposition." That was the minister's introductory remark. He goes on. "One of the main arguments of the proponents of the establishment of a Health Sciences Complex at Memorial University w•s that seventy-five per cent of the capital cost of constructing the complex would be met by the Government of Canada through the health resources fund." That is what he said there. Then he goes on in some detail on the figures and numbers and so forth.

He states some decisions of the Government of Canada to spread out the health resources fund money over a period of years until 1980. Then he goes on and I quote again, Sir .• "I can only state that the feeling of this government is one of outrage at the turn of events. The Health Sciences Complex is being proceeded with largely because seventy-five per cent of the construction cost .. was to come from the Government of Canada.

What the Government of Canada now proposes is that this province as well as other provinces borrow the funds to complete construction and to bear the consequent interest costta until we receive our $30 million share from the health resources funds in dribs and drabs over the next seven or eight years. Thia is intolerable. We intend to place our case before the Government of Canada in the most strenuous terms for a reversal of these arbitrary ceilings. The financial burden placed on this province in this event appears to us to be a breach of good faith." 3774

April 19, 1974 Tape 1207 PK - 2 It goes on, ''If it had been possible the government would have stopped the Health Sciences Complex as soon as these facts became known late in April of 1972. This was not pos~ible, since we had four years of medical students at the medical school, our plans have been completed, contracts have been entered into and the course have been irrevocably set." That is what the minitlter says, Mr. Chairman, on that point.

I think it is fair to summarize his remarks by saying that the Health Sciences Complex would not receive seventy-five per cent funding from the Government of Canada over the period under discussion. It might receive seventy-five per cent over the longer period. Because of this the minister and his colleagues were outraged and if they could have stopped the Health Sciences Complex, which is a ~o part building, as is, they would have stopped it ..

The two parts to the building, .Sir, are on the one hand the facilities for the teaching, the academic and laboratory instruction for the medical students and on the other hand a new hospital; _Tb.e two are joined in the one, but I am told they are separate operations and indeed will be operated by separate administrations. They are both in the same building - very large, I suppose one of the largest buildings ever built in this province. Now what then is the picture? The minister was going to stop that 1£ he could have but · he could not. But he was not going to get seventy-five per cent back.

Well, Sir, the facts have shown that the minister was lying. No lying is too strong a word, I withdraw it. The minister was not stating the truth. The 1971-1972 revised estimates show that the expenditure on the Health Sciences Complex was $550,000, The revenue - shown against that was $412,500. What about the next year? That was about eighty per cent last year. What about next year? "We were not going to get seventy-five per cent." said the minister. The revised expenditure vu $7,504,000. The revenue against that $5,600,000. Mr.

Chairman, it has just been brought to my attention that there are six, I am sorry, there are seven honourable members present 3775

April 19, 1974 Tape 1207 Pk - 3 on the other side. There are only four in the House. There is the Premier, that is eight, four of us - twelve. I am prepared to call quorum calls but this ridiculous new procedure we have blundered into means we stand around for three minutes. But if members on the other side do not show enough interest in the expenditure of millions of dollars of the public money, we will have to call them to get them in. There are thirteen, Your Honour is fourteen. I see the Member for Harbour Grace skulking around outside. There is the House Leader come to lend his beneficent presence.

The ~linister of Fisheries is outside. Do they care about this debate? They may not care about what I am saying but do they care about this process of examining the estimates? The gentleman for Labrador South has been here consistently. The gentleman for Hermitage has been here. The gentleman for Twillingate seems glued to his seat as always, most faithful in his attendance. The Minister of Fisheries, two, four, six, eight, ten, eleven. It is contemp.tuous, Sir, contemptuous. The people of Newfoundland will know.

Now, Sir, in the 1973-1974 fiscal year, the year which ended two or three weeks ago, what was the picture then? Did ve get seventy­ five per cent or did we get some lower figure? Well the revised ~•timates show,! am told, 412.5 millions in expenditure. What was the revenue then? Maybe $.1 million, maybe $2 million. To listen to the minister a couple of years ago in his great budget speech, and my point. Sir, is that the minister's budget speech~• and the minister's presentation of the estimates have been consistently misleading.

The facts have not borne out what he predicted, year after year, Sir, year after year. We spent $12.5 millions 9 according to the revised estimates, $11 million shown as revenue. If you add up those figure~, Sir, as I am sure Your Honour has, over those three years $20,554,000 was spent and $17,012,500 came against that from Ottawa. That is eighty-three per cent. Pretty goodt What about this year? Maybe the balance vill switch dramatically this year because we are into the heavy expenditures now. This year 3776

April 19, 1974 Tape 1207 PK - 4 the minister is forecasting $12 million expenditure on that complex, $12 millions,to bring the total up to $32,554,000. · That is subject to the Auditor General when we get his report in due course but that is the estimate anybody can get now from the published information by the government. We are showing a revenue against that of $7 millions. If you add that together, Sir, and that will show the total revenue then,over the four year period, beginning in 1971-1972 when the first expenditures were incurred, came to $24,012,500 against the projected expenditure of $32.5 millions.

Seventy-four per cent, Sir - seventy-four per cent. Tht! Minister of Finance, Sir, has a great reputation in his own mind, in the mind of his political supporters for being accurate, a. paragon and open and full and frank and revealing but time after time, now that we have had tliree years of his budgets, we have seen the truth. Look at the Linerboard thing. Last year he underestimated that, the expenditure there,by a mere $5 million. A mere $5 millions! That is $1 million more than will be raised by the eleven per cent increase in income tax. Completely wrong!

He made a point of going into the health resources fund. A great point, as if somehow -"Haw! Haw! I have discovered a scandal." Roberts said, '1ou would get seventy-five per cent,but we are not." Row in the fourth year, Sir, the facts show that the revenue will be seventy-four per cent of the projected expenditure over the four year period. Pretty good! Pretty good! About Grade C minus in the Universi~y Economics Course. Underestimating revenue last year, $20 millions,on provincial account $20 millions.

Let me turn to one or two other things, Sir, that the minister in his wisdom - let us look at unemployment because, Sir, the budget, the minister's programme, the programme which decides whether or not this lllinister should get his salary. in parliamentary terms, I do not begrudge 3777

April 19, 1974 Tape 1207 the minister his salary. No doubt like everybody else he needs it. He pays his share of taxes. He has no choice there. The parliamentary device,as Your Honour knows,is to refer to his salary - we had a~l the Beauchesne's citations trotted out yesterday. I am disappointed in the minister in this debate, Sir, and 1 am seriously considering now; Iwas prepared to vote for his salary when Your Honour put this to the vote but I do not know whether or not I shall now. His attitude - did you ever notice, Mr.

Chairman, when the hQnourable gentleman is really on weak ground, he gets sarcastic and l derisive and all of that. That is fine. If he enjoys it, let him feel free but what he is doing is indulging bis own personal pe~~iaritie~ at the expense of what should be a serious debate., a serious debate on the financial and economic condition of this province. The minister is responsible for the financial programme,for the economic condition of this province insofar as this govermnent, the Government of the Province can affect them.

Instead we get sarcasam, as if somehow that would help or personal •ttacks upon the gentle1118D for Bell Island or irrelev~t commentaries. Well let the minister do it. I am not going to attempt to play that sort of game with him·. Maybe I could or maybe I could not buf: that is not why 1 am here this day and it is not, 3778

April 19. 1974 Tape No, 1208 NM - 1 I mean it is not why we are here this day and I submit it is not why anybody should be here this day and I appeal to the minister to approach the matter seriously. I know he is getting a lot of kickback on his Budget, I venture to predict he expected that, so did his colleagues, at least those of them in the Cabinet vho are aware of the Budget. The backbenchers I suppose got a rude . shock when it was read to them. AN HO~,. MEMBER: It is not an election budget, I can tell you that. MR. ROBERTS: It may or may not be an election budget.

It is certainly not a conventional election budget. The minister is obviously tender now. He has been getting a hatmDering in a political sense and all of his colleagues have. Let him be man enough to stand up and if he is to have an election this year that is good. We will go into it tomorrow if the Premier want to have it tomorrow. If it is going to be next year or the year after or the year after that it is equally good. MR. BARRY: We are waiting for the leadership. MR. ROBERTS: Fine! Fine, all for it! Whe·never it comes the Liberal Party will fight it and will abide by the people's decision.

I am quite confident what that shall be. But that, Sir, is not the point in this debate. The point in this debate is the ,conomic conditiQn of this province and the minister had not dealt with that. The minister instead is trying to avoid the issue and to evade it. He is becoming as much a schoolboy debater as the gentleman from Placentia West. · Now let me bring the minister back to some of the facts. MR. BARRY: Same old leader. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Chairman, the honourable gentleman from Placentia West obviously knows a great deal about stables when you consider the company he has been keeping politically the last couple of years. MR. BARRY: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Now, Mr. Chairman, if I am provoked. if that is the word, by the gentleman, if that is the word. from Placentia West,then I shall probably be distracted. I confess humbly, Sir. penitentially .that 3779

April 19, 1974 Tape No. 1208 NM - 2 sometimes the gentleman from Placentia West makes himself suffici~tly obnoxious that even I cannot ignore him. So I would ask him please - MR. BARRY: lie has made my day. MR. ROBERTS: I hope I have made his day. Something has to make his day, But I hope he does some work. I would like him to do some work, Sir, and I wish he would have a look at our energy policy. ·. _ Ou:t energy policy shows no evidence of any work by the minister. But I hope he will allow me to carry on in my humble way. He is getting as bad as his mentor.

We have an odd couple ·o~er there now the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Energy, a very odd couple. As a matter of fact a very coupled odd couple but that-is another story. Now let me come bac~, Mr. Chairman,{and I do wish Your Honour would not distract me like this) to one or two points that I think are pretty relevant to the people of this province, which the minister has not dealt with in any substantive way. First of all let us talk about inflation. I know that the minister cannot control inflation. I know that the Premier cannot control inflation.

I know that all the government together cannot control inflation. Even the gentleman from Trinity South cannot control inflation, Sir, but they can certainly do something to help to meet th~ effects of it. I know the Government of Canada cannot control it even if Mr. Stanfield should be elected Premier of Canada, an unlikely event but unlikely events happen~ Ev~p if that were to happen, Sir, I venture to predict inflation w~uld not be controlled.

This ninety day price freeze that they talk about, I wouid like to hear the minister with his • great economic knowledge expand upon that policy thatbae had disastrous results wherever it has been tried in the world. SQ I do not expect the minister to control inflatio~, Sir, and if be wish· I shall give him a.letter to that effect or an affid~vit or I shall stand on any platform he wishes and say that I do not expect, _·this party . does ·.~ot - expect, my colleagues and I do not expect the Minister of Finance to control inflation. We do not; but we do not expect him to set 3780

April 19, 1974 Tape No. 1208 .NM - 3 out to hit and to hurt the peopla who suffer from it. Let us talk about inflation. Again th~ minister is dead on in his forecast, one hundred per cent wrong. The minister really has this great reputation, puffed up, self-puffed, ac:l:ulatioti: from his followers, some of it deserved, most of it not. In his 1973 speech the minister forecast an increase for 1973 in the consumer price index of St. John's, all items, in other words inflation in Newfoundland, the only measure we have really, of · 4 • .5 ~er _cent.

The increase, Sir, _ turned out to be ·a.2 per ce_nt, nearly ·doubled, not quite doubled but nearly doubled. It is a sad tale, Sir. It has gone on. If the honourable gentleman want the provincial consumer price index changes in the last ~hree or four years, 8.5 per cent estimated this year, 8.2 per cent last year, 5.0 per cent in the first year of Tory grace, 1.6 per cent in 1978-71, which happened to be the last full financial year that the Liberals were in power in this province, Sir, inflation has been rising steadily.

It is not necessarily the fault of the minister but, Sir, he has done little or nothing ·to counteract it. As a matter of fact in many ways he has done less than nothing. This current tax increase the minister is proposing will make it worse. But, Sir, the problem with inflation is that it is cutting into the real incoaes of the people who need most, who need help. The people who have least to sacrifice are being asked to sacrifice the most. The minister has told us about his increases, the proposed increases in pensions for civil servants, a good thing.

Let me be the first to say that it should have been done years ago. I am glad he is doing it now. That is good- $600,000 or is it $660,000, that is his concession to the inflationary spiral in Newfoundland. What is he doing on the other hand? Increasing taxes in a year when every other province has either held the line or low~red them. We are the only province in Canada where the Minister of Finance, or whatever he is called, provincial treuurer, be what it may, the only province 3781

April 19, 1974 Tape No. 1208 MK - 4 in Canada that is increasing taxes, proposes an increase this year. then to add insult to injury, the minister through his deputy is collecting taxes illegally this day, unlawfully, improperly, illegally. There is no authority to collect an eight -per cent sales tax in this province, Sir. Yet the minJster baa instructed his officials to put in the newspapers an advertisement as to what should be collected at an eight per cent_~~t~. lll,egal, _Sir, ·and unlawfu~1 People would be quite within their legal rights in refusing to pay that tax. MR.

CROSBiE: The honourable member· knows it is not. MR. ROBERTS: The Legislature may or may not pass a bill making that tax effective on April 11, but it ha• not, Sir, and the Minister of Finance, Sir, is collecting a tax unlawfully. He is in the same bind ~~t 1!,is ·tory colleague _, Mr. John White, got into in Ontario a year past. - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Deliberate1y deceiving the public. MR ROBERTS: Mr. __ Chairman, _)-drav Y~ur Honour's attention to that remark and ask whether it is _parliamentary •. I ask Your Honour's ruling whether that remark is parliamentary, Sir. MR CHAIBMAN (Mr.

Stagg.) To be quite truthful with the honourable gentleman, I do not recall the remark. I was listening to the honourable gentleman who had the floor. MR ROBERTS: I would ask Your Honour please to recess the comittee and get the tapes. I heard the Minister of Finance say that I was deliberately deceiving the public: He also said I was lying. Now I am doing neither but-even if I .were, even if I were doing the things that he accuses me of, Sir, he is not allowed to say it.

But I am doing neither and l , ask Your Honour now for a ruUng, and if Your Honour - MR CROSBIE: Can I set the honourable gentleman's mind a~ rest. I did say that he was deliberately deceiving the public • .AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Said be was lying too. 3782

"'April 19, 1974 Tape No. 120 NM - 5 MR. CROSBIE: No. I cut that off. I just got "liar" half out and then I stopped there. But I will . now say that if I said that the honourable gentleman was lying I withd~a~ _it and if I said he was deliberately deceiving the public I withdraw -it·because it was unparliamentary. He is deceiving the public, consciously or unconsciously,and he is making an infamous statement and misleading the public by doing so but I will answer that in more detail later. MR. ROBERTS: I thank the honourable gentleman for his ungracious concession to the rules of the House.

Let me repeat my statement: There is no lawful authority in this province this day to collect sales tax at an eight per cent rate and the Minister of Finance is acting improperly and I submit unlawfully. I challenge him to put it to the law officers of the~ r~wn, to get the opinion of the Deputy Minister of Justice or his colleague,the minister, as to whether there is any lawful authority in the Controller of Kevenue, the .Hinister of Finance or anybody in this province to collect a sales tax at a rate higher than seven per cent. There is not. There is not. There just is not, Sir.

There is on the Order Paper of the House a notice of motion that a bill . will come before the House ~o change it. The House may or may not accept that bill. The House may or may ~ot accept that bill, Sir. The bill may or may not have an eight per cent rate in it. It may or may not have a date effective April 11; at midnigl!t. . But I say that as of now, the Minister of Finance is acting unlawfully in attempting to collect sales tax at _a~·eigh~ _ per cent rate and the people of Newfoundland do not know that.

All that they know is that John Crosbie stood in this House and said, "The tax is going up boys, she is going up as of midnight on April 11," But, Sir, that tax has not gone up. On~y this House with the royal' assent given by His Honour the Governor can increase ·that tax 3783

April 19, 1974 Tape no. 1209 Page 1 - MW• only this House can. Nobody else can. The Minister of Finance bu . no power to levy taxes. He can come before the House~ Maybe he feels that the House will make that tax eight per cent and that it will make it effective on April 11, midnight. Maybe it will. Indeed if the Tories stick together, properly. they allllost certainly will. But, Sir, you cannot collect taxes on the Duis of that. 1 say that my citizen of Newfoundland today would be perfectly within his lavful .rights in refusing to pay a tax of a greater rate tban seven per cent.

I challenge any lawyer in Newfounclland to differ with that. I challenge the Minister of Finance or the Premier or anybody else or the Minister of Justice to produce any legal opinio~ to the contrary. There i  no authority to collect the taxes greater than 1even per cent. The Member for Labrador South can look up the act. It says, "You shall pay -. tax · seven per cent of the retail · sales I value, II not eight per ce~t. .

The next thing the M:l.nister of Finance may stand and say, "Look boye,we are going to bring it in effective today at eighty-three per cent~ Then · . a • ~ - • • • • - - • -- • - • • • ---- - the day after tomorro~ the deputy minister on instruction will put ~ little notice in the newspaper to the vendor; "Here is the rate at which you are to collect it." That would make as much lawful seue u what has hen done. I challenge the Minister of Justice to contradict• to . say what I said is wrong. Ia there any lawful authority to collect that tax at eight per cent! AN RON. MEMBER: _(Inaudible). MR.

ROBERTS: Can the mini ter_ answer ay queetlo11'l Is there any lawful authority! MR. HICICMAN: In the British Coaaonwealth - (inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Yea, this one here. Can the M1Dister of .Ju•tice - MR. HICKMAN: -~Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Sure, the income tax comes in as of July 1, that is one. Look at the Ontario budget last 1ear, look at thia budget speech. I repeat my question to the Miniater of Justice; Sir. Can he tall aa that it ia lawful for the government to attempt to collect or to collect 3784

April 19, 1974 Tape no. ~209 Page 2 retail sales' tax in this province this day at eight per cent? Is it or is it not lawful? Is it or is it not lawful? That is the question, Sir. Is it or is it not lawful? I say it is not lawful. HR. HICKMAN: Is it or is it not the most irresponsible statement ever made in this House·by that honourable gentleman right now: MR. ROBERTS: I say, Mr. Chairman, that that is the most responsible statement made in this House.

I aay it is completely responsible because the people of Newfoundland are being taxed unlawfully, that the Government of Newfoundland this day are collecting taxes unlawfully, illegally and improperly at eight per cent. They have said to the vendors, "The notice is in the newspapers, signed by the Deputy Minister of Finance, collect it at eight per cent." The Minister of Energy in private life is a lawyer. I challenge him, Kr. Chairman.

I say again that it is not lawful and that any citizen in Newfoundland is within his legal right• in refusing to pay an-eight per cent sales' tax this day or until such time as this bill has gone through this House, receiving thre~ readings and His Honour the Governor has given it Royal Assent. MR. BARRY: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I have the floor. Mr. Chairman, wi~l. Your Honour keep order in this committee! MR. BARRY: (Inaudible). SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Will Your Honour keep order in this committee?

Your Honour that non-Yahoo will he please be quiet• I- aay again that it is not lawful. I challenge any honourable gentleman oppoaite~ I ·recommend to the people of Newfoundland that they act in accordance with the laws of this province, Sir. I rec~d that they act in accordance with the laws. MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stagg): Order please! The point of the Hon. Leader of the Opposition that other members may be interrupting him is, of course; a logical point_. 3785

April 19, 1974 Tape no. 1209 Page 3 The problem is that I am clos.er to the Hon. Leader of the Opposition than anybody else and it is rather difficult to hear anyone else. He has sufficient volume to drown them out. MR. ROBERTS: Sir, I cannot drain out in my own.ear• the gentleman i from Placentia West • .AN RON. MEMBER: It gets to the honourable member. MR. ROBERTS: Sure it gets to me just as a hemorrhoid gets to one. It 1, exactly the same sort of situation. I Mr. Chairman, the point is this that that . tax is not being collected lawfully.

If the government are collecting it, they are doing so illegally and improperly. I venture to say, Sir, that any citizen of this province could take action against the government, any citizen who paid the eight per cent and had hi receipt from a vendor for eight per cent could take action against the Crown, sue the Attorney General who stands in this case for the Crown and get his one per cent back as of this day. They may bring in a bill retroactively but they have not brought it'in, Sir. They announced it April 11, today is April 19. Hr. Chairman, we have a notice of motion on the Order Paper, or do we?

No, we do not. Surely, we dol No, Sir. Yes, we do, Sir, Motion 3. We have not progressed with it. It has not been brought forward. I challenge any lawyer in Newfoundland today to differ with - on the law, any lawyer. The Minister of Justice cannot, Sir. The Minister of Energy cannot. Nobody else on the other aide is my brother at the bar. Your Honour cannot. The clerks who advise Your Honour, all three of .whom are members of the bar, cannot. What I say is legally eorrect. of Mr. Chairman, the Government of Ontario , fell into this trap last year. It is true that for year government  have done · this.

I am not going to deni that. I mean that is the fact. 'l'here are probably a thousand budget speeches or one hundred thousand budget speeches but I say, Sir, it is unlawful. I say it should not be done. I say if the governD1eot want to proceed in this way, ~hey ahould bring 3786

April 19, 1974 Tape no. 1209 Page 4 that bill on for debate immediately and let the House decide. Supposing today they move a motion that this House adjoum .for a month or for six months and they push it through with their majority, that bill may never come on for six months or a year. We have no control over that. Yet they would go on collecting that tax unlawfully, improperly, illegally. Kr. Chairman, there has never been the like of it. The normal thing with budget motions is that they are brought forward immediately. They do not propose to put the income tax into effect until July 1. That 1• two months.

It is an insult to the House, an insult to the people that government are collecting a tax that they have no lawful authority to collect. That is a fact. It cannot be challenged. It cannot be argued against. It cannot be contradicted. The goverument are acting illegally. They are collecting a tu for which they have no legislative approval. I ••Y now that the people of Newfoundland should follow the law. I say that any citizen of this country should always follow the laws of this province. That includes, Sir, Ber Majesty's ministers, who are not above the law, who are subject to the law as is any citizen.

They should not collect that tax until and unless the Legislature approves it. If they want to make it effective, Sir, they should bring the bill on this day and call it for debate. They should not act unlawfully. They have given no indication, Sir. They adjourned the Bouse for a week. This is the second day the Bouae has met since that adjournment, Sir. They have not called the bill. They have not called the resolution that must precede the bill, no, Sir.

All that has happened is a notice in the newspapera,signed by the Deputy Minister of Finance, acting no doubt on the instruction of his minister, to the retail vendorsi"Here is the tax rate you must collect.' It is unlawful, illegal, improper. If the people of Nefoundland do not pay that tax, Sir, they are within their legal rights. AN HON. Ml:l{BER: (Inaudible). HR. ROBERTS: There are three. ix. nine, t~n of them, because "Conflict of Interest" is one of them, believe it or not. There are ten of them. 3787

April 19, 1974 Tape no. 1209 Page S Diat shows how much intereat they have in an unlawful tax. It •how• how interested they are. The Minister of Justice haa sat there. I challenged him to give hi• legal opinion~ He is the Crovn's chief law officer. I say now that it is unlawful. MR. HICKMAN: (Inaudible). MB.. ROBERTS: We have four out of nine here - four-ninths. The Bon. Member for Labrador South will make five-tenths, if one would · wish to count all the members who do not support the govermae.nt in this House, fifty per cent.

There are thirty-two on the government side, eleven now, sixteen would be the same ratio. The honourable gentleman's arithmetic ia as bad as hia law. _Ml.. BICKMAN: The honourable g~ntleman never had the courage to practice. Ml.. ROBERTS: Never had the courage to practice? That is a pretty lov remark. At least, I am not trying to aneak. my way under the court of appeal, "Alec." MR. BICICMAN: I am not trying to sneak my way. Ml.. ROBERTS: ' No, by God!. The - honourable . gentleman is not going to get there eithet, Ulllesa Bob Stanfield gets in. Now, Mr.

Chairman, I shall practice law when tbe time comes and we will see whether I do well or badly. We will aee. I have never practiced law and I have never made any pretense at it. MR. BARRY: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Could be. Sure. It. would be a great place to be. Maybe it is time that we had some people. 3788

April 19, 1974 Tape 1210 {mo~ing) we would have some people practicing law in this province - AN HON, MEMBER: Inaudible. PK - 1 ~- ROBERTS: Re can tell me the Premier too or the parliamentary assistant to the Prelllier, you know that can go on and on. Now, Sir, I will just reoeat the statement;'the tax is unlawful. Nobody on the other side has contradicted it. They tried everything from questioning my morals,to my morale,to my political standing, to my legal ability, to my - I suppose to anything,but they have not contradicted a statement of fact. The government of this - AN RON.

MF."(BER: Inaudible. ~- ROBERTS: I recommend the people of this province follow the law. I recommend that even the Minister of Energy follow the law, The· law, Mr. Chairman, the law! This is a society governed by the law. It is not . a society governed by the whims of seventeen men. It is not, Sir. It is a society governed by the la~, the law passed by this House of Assembly or by the Rouses of Parliament at Ottawa or by the unwritten, the prerogative, what is left of it, the Queen's prerogative. I am saying that the people of Newfoundland should follow the law. AN HON, MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

ROBERTS: I say to the Minister of Energy; does he think that the people should pay taxes illegally? Does he think the people should pay taxes illegally? No, Sir! AN HON. MF."mF.R: Inaudible. ~. ROBERTS : Nol AN RON. MnfflER: people of Newfoundland. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, MR. CHAIRMAN Order, please? ~- ROBFRTS: Mr. Chairman, I am not lllisleadin~ the people of Newfoundland - I am telling the truth. AN RON. ~ER: Inaudible. MR. CHAIR.'-'AN: Order, please! l"R. ROBP."PT~: I say the government are actinp; illeRally. AN RON. 1'm'-fRFll: !lo. not be so foolish. 3789

April 19, 1974 Tape 1210 (morning) PJC - 2 MR, r.HAIP.MAN: Order, please! MR. ROBlRTS: The government may be guilty of theft, MR , Clt>.l'R~AN: The Hon, Mi~ister of ~ines and Ener,-y does not have the floor, Maybe he has entered into the debate with the agreement of the Leader of the Opposition. They certainly seem to want to talk to one another. However, I feel compelled to enforce the rule that the only person who has the right to speak is the person who has the floor. 1 am sure all honourable members will observe this as much as they can. MR, 'ROBF.JtTS : Thank you, Mr, Chairman.

The honou·rable p:entleman may have lost his dog but he has got a dog's breakfast around him. Now, Sir, let me come back to the consumers' price index just to point out one or two other things. Our consumer price index during the two years of Tory enlightenment; the cost of living in Newfoundland has gone uu faster than it has across Canada. It was five point zero per cent provincially and four point eight oer cent nationally in the 1971- 1972 ¥ear. It was ei~ht point t~,o per cent provincially and seven point six per cent nationally in the 1972-1973 year.

I do not have the projected figure -for 1973-1974 nationally but provincially it is eight point five per cent. In the last year of Liberal grace, the provincial increase in the consumer price index was one point six per cent, the national increase was two point nine per cent; just the other way around, Sir. The same is true · if you look at the real gross national product, gross provincial product changes .

In the last year of the Libe~al Administration, 1970-1971, Sir, the provincial gross product rose by nine point two per cent, the national increase was six point two per cent, llhat happened when the Tories came in, Sir, with their priorities and their planning and enlightenment and their great budgets? We went up five point five per cent provincially and five point nine per cent nationally. We fell behind five point six per cent in 1972-1973 provincially, seven point two per cent nationally. We slipped behind. What about unemployment?

Sir. the labour force _ has grown and unemployment has grown even more. tl'nemi,loyment hes gone up steadily in the Tory years. The annual average in 1971, 18,600 Newfoundlanders uaemployed, ei~ht point one per cent of the labour force. Then the 3790

April 19, 1974 Tape 1210 '(morning) PK - 3 year of Tory grace, 1972, 18,600 became 21,100 people unemployed, thirteen point zero four per cent. Then in 1973, 22,800 unemployed. This year the minister is forecasting 25 _,000 unemployed. He is not even forecasting, Sir, an increase in employment fast enou~h to make ui, for the growth in labour force. All you have to do is look at the budget, Sir, if you can find the infmnous page. He talks of rural development plans. __ He talks of this and he talks of that. S:f.r, the facts show him up. Your Honour will find it on page four of the minister's budget speech.

Economic Outlook for 1974 - Table 2. Increase in the labour force, 3.9 per cent, 7,000. 180,000 last year, 187,000 this year, 7,000. Increase in employed, 3.2 per cent - 157,000 up to 162,000 5,000 increase. In other words, 7,000 enter the labour force next year, Sir, 7,000. 5,000 will find employment. The minister forecasted So 2,000 Newfoundlanders entering the labour force now know that they are doomed. The Minister of Finance has done nothing about it. Nothing.· He is proud of his budget. He boasts of his budget. He is forecasting an increase in unemployment.

He will get up and he will wiggle and he will scream and he will shout and he will bawl about the need for Ottawa. The only thing that saved this government this past two or three years are the increasing expenditures from Ottawa. Mr. Chairman, the unemployment rate in 1973,on an annual average, was twelve point eight per cent. This year the minister's own figures shov it is climbing to thirteen ~oint four per cent. It will be less than that in the summer when construction is underway and the fishery is on. But in the winter, Sir, it will go to twenty or twenty-five per cent.

We do not hear the Premier boasting nOT-T, when they are importing workers from away,or boasting as he did that every ma~ in Newfoundland, there will be jobs for all. No, Sir, a shameful performance, thirteen point four, shameful? How the minister used to decry us,but the record in the Liberal years, Sir, was better than the record in the Tory years. God knows it was not 3791

PlC - '4 w,td @oou~h in the t.t1:1ua1 y@ate~ ~a \n~" th~~ were t& many Uflftifjlttf@d in H@wfftllt\illiittil ~ftl\ l\\ t~iil'e @~i! bi~y '1'e~ h%1ri~j fHH MlllflAf@d to whit we he"ft l\~'w. 'ft, ·~ t;~t; . %1:r,, 1% ~tt'ci'tt..:. in« 1,,Mn Ul\i!!llftl@y@i! @\lt t;f t la~~ut t~ttte ~f 1'817;00'0, ~n •rt'i'i\:lil ff4!H-I Yftlffl!'hym@n.t Ut~ l>f thhtHl\ f,@,iilt ~ur ~~! ~~t ·. fh@ Of181flll t@flf&8t ~% thitt~ f)'tilnt en~ ~~f ~~nt- That i8 what the lllit\11Uf UM:U@ ~\lt il\ ~'eM!~U.. ~ H hi %Sill~ tip p(jint thH@ pn unt.

Th~u &tt l\~t l\lit tt~ni\ sir, tl't~~e are peo,Ie j thou an Nf.wfb11l\tll&l\~Uij • ~nm:it H~a ~ je~ ~ t.'~t u, li,ak At tho reoott\. It Me ~l\te ~ s'teHH.y-. Th'e 'c~st of living has ~one u, 8ttadt1y, lomam.bar thh h th~ h:ey Htief@ ~w\ ti\!@! t~ thi! illn.Hter's ucord. Mr. Chatman, ~n AH t\\~ ~ry years ts. !fewfEnini:li.ind ~ tn 1914 h• 11 for1c1att~ tht~tffft ~tnt t~\lr ~ir e~nt~ (Th~$e are all annual averages~ In 1973 it was twelve point eight per cent. In 1972, it was twelve point one per cent. In 1971 it was eleven point four per ~ent.

So the Tory years hav~ seen the unemployment climbing .absolutely and on a percentage basis. The ~ercentage basis is more relevant than absolutely because our labour force is increasing, although the rate of participation is not increasing significantly. So those are so.ne of the Tory years, Mr. Chairman. The price is up more in Newfoundland than across Canada. The r&ta of price increase in this province is higher than across Canada. That is the minister's stewardship. That is the government's programme of action. Unemployment is up.

It is down across Canada but it has been rising steadily in Newfoundland~ Eleven point four when we went out of office, on an annual average, t~1elve point one the first year of Tory policies, twelve ~nint eight, thirteen point four. What will ve have next year? Fourteen of fifteen on an annual aberage. Our gross provincial products which formerlv wa8 increasing faster than the national averagehas now dropped below the national average increase. Ve are falling behind, thanks to Tory times. ·Tory times are hard timesl You do not have to scratch very hard in 3792

April 19, 1974 Tape 1210 {morning) PK 7 5 Newfoundland to find that feeling in our people; Sir. rou do not have to scratch at all to find it these days. This is the minister's record, Sir, an unlawful tax. misleading statements in his budget, inaccurate statements in his budget, rising unemployment, rising ~rices, falling provincial products; the Tory record. No wonder he is arrogant and sarcastic and frivolous in trying to evade the issues, Sir. Those are the issues.

That is what the Minister of Finance should be concerned with, not with this picayune, pettiness that he has shown in this Conmittee this last two days. Sir, let me talk about one other poi~t- teachers salaries: I said this morning on the VOCM radio station, not what the minister quoted me as saying. Be was inaccurate. I said that I thought ehe teachers had presented a reasonable request, in a reasonable manner and that it should be considered reasonably and I say so now here, that the teachers signed a wage pact. They said they will live by it, if it be . not reopened.

They signed a wage packet at six per cent tlds year, the year beginning 3793

April 19, 1974. Tape 1211 (Morning) ill - 1 April 1, The cost of living is going up. The minister forecasts eight and one half per cent. It will probably be ten or higher. His record for it last year, he was nearly fifty per cent out. He estimated about half of what it came to, I think the government should consider. I would like to hear the minister state the government's position, whether the government will say to the teachers: "No," The teachers have passed a resolution.

I remember the minister when I sat just behind where he sits when he was a minister and he sat over here somewhere in the outer darkness and we had the teachers' strike in 1971. I remember the minister then being so eloquent. I can remember the minister talking about funding teachers' pensions. Be has now been three years as minister and he has not done it. The hypocrisy, the sham! He said in this House that teachers' pensions should be funded. We said it cannot. He said that it should, "You are robbing the teachers!" Now in his budget he drags it in again, Sir, the same unfunded pension.

He has made no effort to change it. Now let him be man enough to admit he was wrong, wrong now or wr~g then,but nothing is changed except the minister is now the minister. Mr. Chairman, I think as well the government should look at all their wage settle­ ments. I know the minister has to find the money for them. I do not envy him the task and° he can stand and say, "What would be do?" and _ I would say, "I am not the government." If I were the !'.inister of Finance or the Premier I would answer it and I would stand by wry answer.

If the minister does not thi~k he can do the job let him get out, as an old adage in politics, "If you cannot stand the heat, get out of the kitchen," There is another old adage too, "The buck stops here!" The minister is the Minister of Finance. He must govern. Re . must bring in his budget and it must stand the test of scrutiny,and this one does not. I say they should reopen or consider reopenin~ the whole wage settlement, Sir, becau~e the hospital worker at four or five thousand dollars a year is crucified by the cost of living. 3794

April 19, 1974. Tape 1211 (Morni~

g) RH - 2 · The minister, who gets the same salary as I do, $28,000 a year, not neady as badly affected, No, Sir, let them look at it. Stelco,Delfasco have reopened their contract and given their employees sustantial wage raises and I venture to suggest, Sir, that you will see private employers in this Province doing it. I venture to suggest, Sir, that before this year is over you will see wage agreements reopened because, Sir, the wage agreements were entered into with no indication on either side of what was happening on the cost of living.

If you do not do that, Sir, you will see chaos, and unrest and grievences and unhappiness, and we do not want that. I say -now• the government, I believe,do not want it and they should act to try to prevent it. Let them deal fairly and reasonably and let the minister say that when the teachers come in with their reques~ as they will they have passed the motion. They have done it publicly. It has been in the newspapers and on the radio- let him say that they will be heard and their request will be considered. I am not saying, Sir, it should or should not be increased. I do not know.

What I am saying is that it should be considered. It should be reopened. It should be,and we will see what results. If not, Sir, the long,hot summer that the Minister of Manpower fore­ ~~ts will become an early and very hot summer indeed. I do not condone unlawful strikes, Mr, Chairman, nobody can.

I do not condone unlawful actions by a government, collecting a tax illegally but Sir,~ have a certain sympathy with men and women who are workin~ for relatively low wage scales ,and they are finding as they go to the supermarket and the prices are up and the price of electricity is up and the price of gasoline is up and the price of houses is going to go up now because the eight per cent sales tax will go on things going in houses just as the seven per cent does, the price of their income tax goes up and the! are trying to make things meet.

Now they are going to have a school tax in St, John'• and probably increased school taxes around the Province because of the minister's policy and the minister's budget policy of passing the load 3795

April 19, 1974. Tape 1211 (Horning) RH - 3 back and refusing to take it on the provincial shoulders, putting it back directly on the backs of people around the Province, not related to their ability to pay, related only to the minister'~ lack of political courage - the ministry's lack of political courage! So, Mr. Chairman, I hope the minister will deal with some of these points I will make and then we will consider his answer and ve will probably have some 1110re points to make or some questions. If I have been heated, it is because I am angry. All this does not affect me personally very directly, Sir.

I can still live without any real change in my standard of living with what is going on. Sure, sure, but there are lots of Newfoundlanders, Sir, most of my constituents are finding a cruel pinch. I venture to suggest, Sir, -. there are very _few men in this House who are not in the same - for instance I am sure down in Labrador South that people are upset and angry and hurt at what is happening. What you are seeing; people are not buying milk. They cannot afford to buy it. People cannot afford adequate clothing.

I mean it is mean, penny-pinching, grasping, that is what happens, .That is why they got the devil in them when t~ey see $3 millions being flung away on Confederation Celebrationa. By God! Let us mark Confederation! Confederation was not a great party. Do you know what Confederation first meant, Mr. Chairman, for ~ost people in Newfoundland? Do you know how it first showed up? In the children. Now this is hearsay to me. I grew up in circumstances in St, . .John's where I did not see these things.

My father always did well, worked hard and did well but, Sir, I have knocked around the Province for eight or ten years now and I have learned something and people have talked to me. When I hear mothers in their forties and fifties, not old women, not old ladies, young people who remember that what Confederation meant was shoes, new shoes or socks or adequate winter clothing or being able to wear rubber boots vith·soclts inside them. Your Honour may or may not have gone to school wearing rubber boots with no socks inside them. Hundreds and thousands of 3796

April 19, 1974. Tape _l211 (Morning) RH - 4 Newfoundland kids did. Now that is what Confederation meant. That is w~at it really meant. If the government vere to mark that.and it should be marked, It was a great event in our history, ~t should be marked. Maybe a retarded children's home, as the member for Bell Island suggested,or something along those lines instead of flin~ing out-we are going out to a steak dinner in St. Anthony now. Oh! I suppose there will be one hundred people there or two hundred people there, a ]igg's dinner.

I would rather have three or four hundred or thousand or two thousand dollars that would cost, Sir, put into the housing· of a lady. AN HONOURABLE "1EMBER: What kind of wine? MR. ROBERTS: A lady living down in Goose Cove that the Minister of Social Services says they can do nothing for. AR HONOURABLE MEMBER: Is it Rhine wine or Portuguese wine? MR. ROBERTS: Lots of both, I am sure - A lady in Goose Cove, Sir, the go~ernment cannot afford to fix up her House. One can go into that house and one can look through the walls. One can look through the walls. The Minister of Social Services is not here, he is ill.

That is not his fault. But he wrote me a letter in October and he said that nothing could be done about it. Seventy-five year old lady, living with a forty year old retarded nephew, all alone in the world. It is really the worst case I have seen and I thoug~t I had'seen some pretty nasty housing situations. I will go down as the member in the district, if the government want and "I will say,."Look, let us cancel this dinner. Let us take the cost of it and we will go down to Goose Cove and ve will build that lady a house.• A.'i HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. Kil.

IOBEB.TS: Well, I can table the letter or I would rather show the ·gentleman outside because I do not want to reveal the lady's name. I will gladly. show the minister the correspondence file. The minister came back and said that there seems to be nothing more we can do. Now one can appeal to the Appeal Board is it? But for a seventv-five year old lady livin~ in Goose Cove, the Appeal Board is not the place. ~7Q7

April 19, 1974. Tape 1211 (Morning) RB :... 5 tf the minister would take an interest in it,I would laud him. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Sure, sure, that is a fat chance. I have got the Welfare Department back on it again. The regional supervisor is back at it again and hopefully we can ~et around it. I do not 0 want to table the letter but the point is - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: That is not the point. MR. ROBERTS: I agree it is not the point.

The point is that if we want to celebrate Confederation, I am sure the people of White Bay North would rather see that lady get a home than one hundred or two htmdred people gather up in the Skylight Motel and wine and dine and I mean that, Sir. I would rather see it. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Is the horourable Leader invited. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, only because I am the member. I am sure if they could find a way around it they would, although I may add, I had been invited even before the committee invited me. Mr.

Chairman, if we want to celebrate Confederation, that is ' '-l• _,....._ ,,. . •. the way to do it, hundreds of things. Any man who has been in govern- . i' ment is deeply touched by the needsof retarded children. The. honourable gentleman, the minister's aunt, Mr~. Vera Perlin, has done ma~ificl!flt work. Indeed, I suppose she was the first one to take an interest. Sh~ made us come partially to ou~ senses. She lobbied and she worked and some recognition was taken but not enough was done. By God!

I cannot think of a finer, there is not a district in Newfoundland, there is not a member who has not run into two or three or four cases where family lives are ruined by children whom - you know, the luck of a draw, the luck of a genetic draw. In God's wisdom these children cannot function as normal human beings and they grow older and the families lives are crippled. I know of cases in my district where _3798

April 19, 1974 .Tape 1212 (morning) children of sixteen and seventeen had to be tied up because they were violent. Everybody on the other side is studiously ignorin~ me as if somehow I am embarrassing them: AN HONOURABLE 1"E1"BER: I do not even know that case. IB-1 ~- ROBf.RTS: Well, the honourable gentleman mi~ht- I wish he would do something about it. I mean, there are many cases around. The real problem is the lack of institutions. Now, there are some in th? budget. I think there is one forJ~tephenville, Your Honour, which would serve the West Coast. AN HONOUR.ABLE 1"E1"BER: 1961.

They had a case down in his district in HR. ROBERTS: Well, 1 certainly was not there in 1961. I was not even there in 1963. I have run across fifty. 1 remember one when I was Health Minister, Mr. Chairman, A family - 1 will not name the community - but there were ten children in the family. Five of them were hopelessly retarded. I can remember a case out on the West Coast, Your Honour, when I was again Health Minister. Two old people died,as often happens. An old man and an old lady, one goes and the heart seems to go out of the other and the spouse dies quickly.

When they went into that house on the West Coast they discovered three young men in their thirties, brothers, each of them mentally retarded. Those parents had looked after those three children for thirty odd years· and nobody in the community knew about it, nobody. I could give the Minister of Health the name of that family. The three boys were taken into care and as far as I know they are still receiving care. How many of those are there still around Newfoundland? In St. Anthony vhere they have had the Grenfell Mission providing medical services for seventy years, they still discover cases from time to time.

AN HONOURARLE ~':\!BER: They were taken into care but they have not been put in the mental hospital. 3799

Apri~ 19, 1974 Tape 1212 IB-2 MR. ROBERTS: Oh yes. He remembers the case. Because there were no adult facilities, no facilities for adult retardates. Now, maybe that should be our Confederation Celebration thing. Maybe it should be. There are some increases for children's homes in here and that is a r,ood thing. Maybe a school for the deaf,but I would even put the need for adult retardate care above that. That is why 1 get angry. That is why the•people of Newfoundland get angry when we are flinging out how many hundreds of thousands of dollars to George McLe~? I have nothing against Mr. McLean.

He is obviously a very good public ' relations man·. Why must he fatten himself on the revenues of this province? Why do we not mark this? There is a long tradition of it in Newfoundland, Sir. Jubilee scholarships: The govemment of the day - I guess it was Collllllission - wanted to honour King George Von his twenty- fifth anniversary of his coronation. They set up the jubilee scholarship and 1 suppose thirty or forty young Newfoundlanders were given an education, a chance to get ahead. It does -not mean now what it meant forty years ago because there i~ much more help for people going to university.

When the queen came.in 1971,there vu a donation made to the Vera Perlin School. The Minister of Finance might remeabe.r. I think that was the comnemoration. Her Majesty asked that she be given no gifts, that if any govemment wanted to honour her visit that it be done in that sort ~f ~•Y, and govel'IUIJl!nts across Canada did things like that. The Government of Ontaria,when the queen visited there last year, built a playground or a ward or something at the Hospital for Sick Children,which is down on University Avenue, south .of the parliament buildings in Toronto.

Those are the sorts of things that govemment should be doin,. That is why I am glad that the Govemment of Canada have not given the Government of Newfoundland a nickle. The Minister of Finance puts it in his budget. I challenge him 3800

April 19, 1974 Tape 1212 IB-l . to show any evidence that he is going to get that contribution. I hope that they do not give it for banquets and bonfires and that sort of thing. I am all for them honouring Confederation.

I would like nothing better than when the Prime Minister and the cabinet come here in June, as they have announced they are .going to do. than.~to have the Prime Minister announce; "The cabinet this day have approved millions of dollars for some great project for Newfoundland as a gift from the people of 1 canada through their government to ·mark the twenty­ fifth year of our tmion with Canada." I appeal to the minister now to do just this, to cancel all these nonsensical budgets. Every department has got it hidden ' away, Sl4,000 or $15,000 squirreled away, Confederation Celebrations.

Put them all together.they add up to about $3 million I think. Use them for something memorable. I do not care if he calls it the .. Crosbie Center or the Collins Center. That could not bother me less, I would like to see it. Anyway these are a few remarks on the Minister's salary. I will be most interested to hear what he has to say on the points that I made. Thank you~ AH HONOURABLE MEMBFR: Inaudible. !'Jt. CROSBIE: Yes, I think he does • . Mr. Chairman, this is really the most infamous statement yet made in this House of Assembly by the Leader of the Opposition.

In fact in all parliamentary history I cannot think of another example where anything this infamous was ever attempted as the statement the Leader of the Opposition has made about the sales tax and his ' appeal to the people of Newfoundland, his misleading appeal to them ~ not to pay it, his argument that it is illegal. It is absolutely the 110st infamous and irresponsible statement ever made in any parliament in the British Commonwealth that I have any knowledge of. The Leader of the Opposition and every member of this Bouse is well aware of the fact that tax changes have to be announced 3801

April 19, 1974 Tape 1212 IB-4 and implemented before legislation is introduced and ~assed by the Rouse because if that be not done, people can take advantage of the period in between. Some arrange their affairs.so that they avoid tax. It is the well-known and clear precedent in every parliament in the British Commonwealth, every House of Assembly in Canada and the Parliament of Canada that tax changes come into effect as soon as they are announced in the Budget Speech.and that legielation is subsequently passed by the House of Assembly or parliament and made retroactive to that date.

Now, Mr.·Chairman, there will be legislation presented to f' this Rouse .- it is on the Order Paper now - amending the Retail Salee Tax Act so that as of midnight on the day of the Budget Speech the eight per cent rate become• effective. The legislation will contain a clause making it retroactive to midnight on the night of the Budget Speech which was April 11, was it not? AN HONOURABLE ME~ER: The tenth. MR. CROSBIE: April 10, midnight, April 10. So it comes into effect on April 11. '!hat was the practice, Hr.

Chairman ,when sales tax changes were introduced in this House in 1967 and in 1968 and when the gasoline tax was increased.by five cents in 1967 and when the income tax was changed,when the corporation tax was changed. MR. NEARY: Quorum call, Sir. Yo'R. CROSBIE: Every increase was done in the same manner. AN HONOURABLE KEMBE'P.: Sit down. MR. CROSBIE: When the bell rings,l will sit down. MR. SPEAKE~(~. STAGG): We have a quorum. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, before I was interrupted hy this nuisance quorum call - this is really, Mr.

Chairman, positively the most unscrupulous act by a Leader of the Opposition yet in any parliament • .. So, every precedence since 1949 in this House is that a taJI' change is announced in the budget. The legislation comes later and it is made retroactive. 3802

April 19, 1974 Tape 1212 IB-5 'Now, wha.t is the practice in the· Par:J.iament of Canada, the Liberal Administration in Canada? What is the practice there of thos.e people to whom tl'e Leader of t~e Opposition here appears to be or says he is so elose? !!r. Chair111an, here is an interesing thing that happened . in the Covermient of Canada, the Parliament of Canada,controlled by the Liberal Party. The 1972 federal budget was broug;ht dQWtt on May 8, 3803

April 19, 1974 Tape 1213 ( morning _) PK - 1 1972. lt introduced a numher of changes in federal income taxation; in the area of personal income tax it increased certain ex~tions and so on. There is a whole long list of changes that were to be made, changes in the corporate income tax and so on. The tax changes introduced by the 1972 budget were not sanctioned in 1972 - there was no legislation passed in 1972 in the Federal House. Those changes went into effect, effeetive from January 1, 1972, not even effective from May 8, 1972. The changes were to be effective from January 1, 1972.

No legislation was passed by the Parliament of Canada all during 1972. But did the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Stanfield, get up and advise people not to pay these taxes, and not to observe these changes? He did not. He certainly did not. When was the legislation passed? The Twenty-Eighth Parliament was dissolved in September, 1972. for a general election. All the bills introduced then were swept away, passed away from the legislative scene.

A new bill covering these tax changes introduced by the 1972 budget that pertained to personal income tax was brought before the newly elected Twenty-Ninth Parliament in 1973 and enacted with retroactive effect to January 1, 1972, made retroactive over one year after they became effective. t.egislatio~ was passed at the time the Liberal Party became a mi~ority government. nie 1973 Federal Budget presented by . e_lose. ·f~e~ds __ c;>~- the Leader of the Opuosition who so loves to be praising them and saring how wonderful they are, their Federal Budget was introduced on January 19, 1973.

It prooosed significant changes in personal income taxation, increased exemptions and so on. ~ It did various other things. The basic income tax rate vas changed and so on. The corporate income tax was changed.· The oer80tl81 income changes introduced in that budget of 1973 and the corporation tax changes were brought before Parliament in June 1973, six months later. The budget was brought down in January 1973. The legislation was brought before Parliament in June 1973, six months la_ter, and enacted .._ into law. 3804

April 19, 1974 Tape 1213 (morning) PK-- 2 But in the meantime it was acce~ted that this was the Law of the Land because it was known and assumed that the legislation would be passed by the House of Commons and if it were not.otherwise no govern­ ment could function. So there is the federal precedent, ~r. Chairman. The May 8, 1972,budget which was retroactive any way to January 1, 1972, no legislation vas passed until 1973, over one year later. The 1973 budget six months later.

Now the Leader of the Opposition here,knowing all of that, a student of Parliament affairs, prides himself, you know o·n how he knows all about Parliamentary affairs, political history, _the British Connonwealth, the Parliamentary traditions, in addition to which he is a lawyer, stands in this House today and makes a cheap,irresponsible statement that because the budget was brought down a week ago and the changes introduced,effective that day.are not law and that the people of Newfoundland should not observe it and should not pay the tax, know­ ing full well that legislation will be introduced in this House and enacted in the next several weeks,retroactive to April 11, 1974.

Now, Mr. Chairman, that just absolutely takes t~ e cake. We are not going to wait six months, we are not going to wait a year. The honourable gentleman now is up with the press,with. a volume of the statutes in his hand, trying to persuade the press, ~r. Chairman. A.~ HON. MEMBER: Well that will take nine minutes off the·, seventy-five hours. MR. CROSBIE: hands. MR. NEARY: Uo with the press now.look with the statute books in his Could we have a quorum call please? Bow many times I have to ask to call a quorum? !-'it, BARRY: HR. CROSBIE: MR. NEARY: MR. CROS:RIF.: Inaudible. There is a ctuorum here, Mr. Chairman.

There is no quorum here. There is a quorum. There were three over there and there were at least eleven here, no not be so foolish; 3805

April 19, 1974 Tape 1213 (110rning) Pl: - 3 Well, Hr. Chairman, this is clearly the most infamous and most irresponsible sta_tement by a Leader of the Opposition ever in this Rouse and in the British Co'ITl'lonwealth. Let no one in Newfoundland, Mr. Chairman, be under any misapprehension,the law is and will be that the eight per cent tax is effective from April 11, 1973,and anyone who does not observe that does so at his own peril. The saae as the law that was observed in Canada during 1972, despite the fact that the legislation was not passed until later and made retroactive eighteen months to January 1, 1972.

Mr. Chairman, it just boggles the mind, it boggles.the imaginati~ how - what does the Leader of the ~position think he is gaining by this kind of an unscrupulous suggestion] Who does he think he is impressing? I mean surely _it paase~ all understanding how that honourable gentleman could even attempt the like. It is just inc0111J1rehensible. It takes the breath away. MR. BARRY: The same thing as the freeze on petroleum prices. the federal government had no legislation - MR. CROSBIE: Yes, the federal gove?1111ent exactly! the Bon.

Minister of Mines and Energy points out that a freeze vas introduced on oil and gas prices in Canada without there being any legislation and with~ut the federal government having the legal authority. Because they · announced it and they said, legislation will be passed putting this into effective - ~he legislation was not passed for weeks later. MR. 'BARRY: It is still not passed. MR. CROSBIE: It i~ still not passedr th~ Hon. ~inister of Mines and Energy ays •· This is the Leader of the OJ,posi tion' 11 cohorts and his friends in the Liberal _Party in Ottawa ~ MR.

BAP.RY: Re would have the oil companies raise prices. Re vauld tell them to - MR. CRO~BIE: Yes, why does he not get up in the P.ouse, Mr. Chairman, and tell all the oil companies; the law is still not passed yet, raise your prices. He does not do that, ~r. Chairman. Well you know I cannot say any more on this because I mean it is so astounding. I can 3806

April 19, 1974 Tape 1213 (morning) PK - 4 only ask the news media to make sure that the people of Newfoundland are told that ther will be observing the Leader of .the Opposition's observations at their peril - because the amendment to the Retail Sales ~ax Act will be passed in the next week or two weeks, the government are committed to it. The govertu!!ent have~ majority here. It will be passed the same as the federal legislation was passed, will be retroactive to April 11, 1974. AN HON. HFYBER: Not a free vote. MR. CROSBIE: Now what are we? Not a free vote?

Every vote here is a free vote, every vote, Every vote is a free vote. Let me c0111e to some of the other points of the Leader of the Opoosition, or so-called points. The Leader of the Opposition started out with the Health Sciences Centre and a statement made. in the 1972 budget which was one hundred per cent accurate and which reoorted what we had been told by Ottawa that our $30 million - that their contribution from the Health Resources Fund for the Health Science Centre would be paid over a period to 1980' depending on how construction went in other areas of Canada.

We could not count on it until 1980, it would be paid over that period. I said in that budget that strong representations have been made and would continue to be made. As it has turned out, )l[r. Chairman, oiir representations have been successful and we had been receiving seventy­ five per cent, approximately,of the money spent on the Health Sciences Centre as it is under construction during the past several years and we hope and except to receive that again this year. Nothing inconsistent. The statement in the 1972 budget, absolutely accurate.

It just so happens that things have tu~ed out right and that our reuresentations have had effect. So the Leader of the Opposition tries to twist that and to make it something else, to make it look as though the Rouse was being misled. "The minister was not stating the trut~" and all this kind ~f, you know. So the Hon. Leader of the Opposition,that mountain of virtue and Parliament decowm,of hi~tory and tradition,laboured, that veritablP mountain lahoured,to try and show that I have misled the House,and ~An7

Ai,dl 19, 1974 Tai,e 1213 (morninR) PJt -.5 brought forward a mouse, not even a mouse. No wonder he is touchy, no wonder he is worried about the fall. He will not get ten i,er cent of the votes· in that convention. The ~.ember for Bell Island will be swei,t in. They will carry him to the hall on their shoulders. It is,even the Member for Bell Island is going in - MR. NEARY, How about being my cam-r,aign manager? MR. CRO~BIE: Yes, I am very tempted, very tempted. Either it will be the Member for Bell Island or the honourable former retired Premier, Mr. Smallwood, one or the other is going to get it. AN HON.

MF.MBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: Neddy Spencer may have a job this time. Now what is the next point he made? The Labrador Linerboard, he add, was under estimated by $5 million. 3808

April 19, 1974 Tape No. 1214 NH - l The honourable Leader of the Opposition said he though he was on a magnificent point there, $5 million underestimate. Well what happened, Mr. Speaker? Why was there an underestimate in that respect? Well the reason is this that last year, Mr. Speaker, there had to be a repayment in principal on the Javelin loan. That is the Deutschemark loan and the Stirling loan arranged by Javelin before ve took over the linerboard mill.

There had to be a ~~~c_!pal repayment which we estimated to be $15,180,000 during the _year and interest payments were calculated in dollars to be aix million odd dollars. This. is the amount that was used for the estimate. Last year, Mr.

Speaker, the exchange rate of a Deutschemark and the exchange rate f~r th~ -p~un~ went up rapidly vis-a-vis the Canadian and United States dollars and therefore those payments cost not $15 million and $6 million in dollars rather it cost $18 million and over $7 million because we had to pay out more dollars to get the- same number of Deutschemarlcs and pounds to ~~p_ay ~he princ~pal _on the loan, That explains why a further amount had to be voted for Labrador Linerboard or at least just over $4 million of the amount. No one could estimate, Mr.

Chairman, last March,whenever .••·. it was, the Budget came down the end of March, ihat the ' Deutschemark va, going .to so increase in value during the coming year or that the pound would. Both the Deutschemark and the pound have now receded again from their heights during last year. The stirling at the moment is $2.43, that was when we paid it, the Deutschemark now is - no, I. have not got the present figure. The Deutschemark now is thirty-e~ght cents Canadian

whereas it was forty-two cents (42.5 Canadian) when a lot of that money had to be repaid and similiarly the stirling . was $2.43 to $2.54 and today it is $2.20 to $2.28. So that explains the linerboard underestimate, this criminal act that the Leader of the Opposition thought he was onto such a great point with. Understated revenues. I dealt with understated revenues 3809

April 19, 1974 Tape No. 1214 NM - 2 last night, Mr. Chairman, and I know it will only be boring to the House to go into it again. Understated:revenues were not •n error at all, estimates areestimates. No one could forecast what happened last year. The federal government did not forecast it. We did not forecast it and the result is that our revenue was higher because of great inflation. Not bad estimating at all, excellent estimating. We have had the most accurate estimates of revenue and expenditure during the last two years ever .in Newfoundland or ' ever since 1949. Now la~t night I was accused, Mr.

Chairman; I was ·responsible I was told for the increased _b~~~h rate_, _ -~Dcreased population in the island, That was one thing I was responsible for and today I am told that I am responsible for the unemployment 1n the province. This is the first time in my experience in this House, Mr. Chairman, that .the Miniater of Finance has ever been accused of being responsible for all the unemployment in the province but today the ~eader · of · the Opposition throws that one in as well. Row tliJJt can be I do not know.Not only that, Mr.

Chairman, but I am responsible for inflation, not John Turner, the Federal Minister of Fiuance,who controls the Bank of Canada and who controls. the printing of money and who • controls exchange rates and all the rest of 1.t, not the ~owerful Minister of Finance of Canada,who has a Budget of $22 billion,but the Finance Minister of this little province who has a Budget of three-quarters of a billion is now responsible for all of the inflation in Canada. I bear a heavy burden of responsibility, apparently. I did not realize I had such an effect on the whole economy of Canada.

I did not know that the little Newfoundland tail wagged a big Canadian dog. I mean if I were ~esponsible for all of these things I things I want the l~ tr\ml_;nta 0 put ~n 'niy . controi so that I can ~ something about· it. I want the Bank of Canada and I want the mint and I want control over banking and trade and co11m1erce. If I am to be assigned responsiblity for inflation and unemployment and all the rest of it, I want to be given to me the instruments that I can use to attempt to 3810

April 19, 1974 Tape No. 1214 .NM - 3