Manitoba Hansard — 26 May 1980 (Sitting 65A, 31st Legislature, 4th Session)

31-4-65a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 26 May, 1980. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER , Hon. Harry E. Graham (Birtle Russell): Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Recei ving Pe titions . . . Present ing Reports by Standing and Special Commi ttees . . . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. STERLING R. LYON {Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, I lay on the table of the House a Provincial Forest Fire

Summary which honourable members can read, rather then read it into the record. It's available for questions that can be asked on it later, of the individual Ministers. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour ab le Mini ster of Labour. HON. KEN MacMASTER (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to table the 41s t Annual Report of the Manitoba Civil Service Superannuation Fund for the year ending December 31, 1979. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion .. . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. GERALD W.J. MERCIER (Osborne), on behalf of the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs, introduced Bill No. 60,

An Act to amend The Municipal Act; and Bill No. 68,

An Act to amend The Local Authorities Election Act. MR. MERCIER introduced Bill No. 70, The Blood Test Act. MR. WILSON PARASIUK (Transcona), on behalf of the Honourable Member for Wellington, introduced Bill No. 71,

An Act to amend The Social Allowances Act (2). INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: At this time, I should like to draw the honourable members' attention to the gallery where we have 20 students of Grade 5 standing from the Wabowden School under the direction of Mr. Malalyk. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Labour. We have 40 students of Grade 8 standing from Provencher Junior High School under the direction Mr. Augert. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for St. Boniface.

We have 13 students of Gr ades 4, 5 and 6 standing from Gen eral Byng School under the dir ec tion of Mrs. Boake. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Attorney-General. On behalf of all the honourable members, we welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health, since the Mi nis ter of Health has effectively placed the hospitals, the health care workers and the nurses in a vice in imposing budgetary restrictions.

Can the Minister advise what he intends to do now to relieve the hospitals, the health care workers and others from the vice which he has effectively installed, placing us on the verge of a pending overal l provincial strike? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L.R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, I don't belie ve that it would serve any useful purpose for either the opposition or the government to be stampeded by reports in various news media, largely those iri the Winnip eg Tribune over the weekend, with respect to staffing and nursing situations in Winn ipeg hospitals.

Obviously, if there is validity and accuracy to those reports, it will be a matter of grave concern to me and to the government and whatever remedial action is necessary will be taken. I have, as of yesterday, instructed my officials to investigate the alleged complaints and the comments made in Saturday's Tribune. That investigation is und erway and will be completed as quickly as possible.

Pending completion of that survey to determine the accuracy of those remarks and comments, I think it's probably not prudent, Mr. · Speaker, of me to make too many further comments, except to say that the complaints referred to in the Tribune were never forwarded either to the Health Services Commission, to my Deputy Minister or to me. There were some incidents reported on incident reports in various Winn ipeg hospitals, which were dealt with by the nur sing admi nistrat ions and the general admi nistrat ions of the hospitals as they were received.

Insofar as we've been able to determine up to this point in time, the number accountable for among Winnip eg hospitals does not approximate the figure of 300 that was given in Saturday's Tribune. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I would simply point out to you that the answer did not relate whatsoever to the question that was posed by myself and I would hope that you would keep that in mind with future answers. I did not ask about the series of articles in The Winnip eg Tribune. What I asked about, Mr.

Speaker, is what the Minister intends to do in order to undertake the easing of the continued, protracted, restraint under which that Minister has operated under with the First Minister and members 3959

Monday, 26 May, 1980. across ttie way for the past three years, the past three years, Mr. Speaker, bringing about a situation by which hospitals are unable to pay the salaries that they might like to pay in the province of Manitoba, on the verge of a provincialwide general strike to occur in the health care institutions in this province. What action does the Minster undertake and plan to undertake in respect thereto? -(Interjection)- MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please. Order please. The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, negotiations and conciliation between the Health Sciences Centre and the CUPE employees at the Health Sciences Centre, and between some 40 other facilities that belong to the Manitoba Health Organizations and the CUPE Union, have been proceding for some several weeks and are continuing and it's my information that they're continuing today. I remain hopeful until the end, although I must say that at this juncture one does not have cause or occasion for any major optimism that a strike can be averted.

However, those efforts will be maintained; efforts to achieve as early an agreement as possible will be maintained intensely and contingency plans are in place at the Health Sciences Centre and other health facilities in Manitoba to take care of the emergency needs of Manitobans insofar as the Health Services of the province are concerned. I think at this juncture, Mr. Speaker, that the goodwill that can be generated on both sides should be encouraged and the situation should not be exacerbated by deba ting the negotiations and the conciliation that is under way. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, a further question to the Minister of Health. In view of the statements uttered by the First Minister but a few moments ago from his seat, can the Minister of Health assure us that he, as Minister of Health, would do everything possible to avert a strike and not to engineer a strike in the province of Manitoba? MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I think that question hardly needs comment but in order that the record be clear let me assure my honourable friend that up to this point in time, my office and I have done every thing that is possib le, short of direct government intervention in the collective barga ining process. We intend to ensure if we can that the present difficulty is resolved through the democratic free collective bargaining process. Up to this point in time it is not necessary, and I'm assured by the admin istrators of the hospitals involved that it is not necessary, that there be any other kind of intervention. MR.

PAWLEY: Again to the Minister of Health. Would t!;le Minister of H ealth then advise whether or not it is his intention, in order to undertake appropriate settlement of the present situation that exists, that the bu dgetary restrictions that had been imposed by his government will be reviewed if it is required in order to avoid a general-wide strike in the province of Manitoba and a further decline in health services that have continued over the past three years? MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, that's an interesting question, in view of the fact that just a few days ago the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition was scalding the government for a projected 139 million deficit in fiscal 19 80-81. Mr. Speaker, we will continue to do what we have attempted to do as a government since our election and that is to cut Manitoba's cloth to fit its coat and we will make every effort to ensure that all Manitobans, in all categories of service to this province, including support service in the health care field, are fairly and equ itably compensated. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, let me say to the Minister of Health -(I nterjection)- MRI SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. This is the time for questions, if the Honourable Leader of the Opposition has a further. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the Minister of Health's statement pertaining to concerns about opposition response pertaining to the 139 million deficit, is the Minister of Health prepared to indicate to the House that he will prevent the continued decline in health services if the opposition does not raise questions pertaining to the continued deficit on his government's part for the improvement of health services in this province which have declined over the past three years? MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, when the health care budget of a province, or any jurisdiction, is one-third of its total budget it is patently absurd, patently absurd and ignorant, Mr. Speaker, and irresponsible of any individual purporting to be the leader of an official opposi tion, to issue alle gations about reductions in health care or reductions in health care budgeting or tight budgets. I put the question rhetorically, Mr. Speaker, as to what the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition would be satisfied with, a half of the provincial budget or three-quarters of the provincial budget.

We believe that Manitobans have comm itted a substantial and a reasonable portion of their public funds to health care which outdistances many other jurisdictions, in fact, most other jurisdictions on this continent, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Kildonan on a point of order. MR. PETER FOX: I belie ve the Minister, in his opening remarks, inferred that the Leader of the Opposition didn't have any intelligence.

I do belie ve that it is the custom of parliamentary procedure to concur that all honourable members are elected here and are intelligent; that it is wrong to infer or to apply any kind of motives to any one, and I would suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that you have the Honourable Minister of Health retract that statement. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health on the point of order. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, if the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition feels offended by my remarks I am perfectly prepared to withdraw any 3960

Monday, 26 May, 1980. allegations that he or his colleague from Kildonan have interpreted in a particular individual way. I repeat that it is irr esponsible to charge this gover nment, spen ding one-third of Mani toba's taxpayers money on health care, with reductions or tight budgeting in health care. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon East. MR. LEONARD S. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I, too, would like to address a question to the Minister of Health with respect to the crisis that may be occurring very shortly, within hours.

Sinc e the average wage for Manitoba health care workers was 183 per week, compared to the average wage of 263 per week for all Manitoba workers as of December, '79, will the Min ister now reconsider adequa te funding of health care institutions so that these workers can obtain a much more equitable wage level than they have at the present time? I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister look at more than goodwill, more than public relations. How about some adequate funding now, for the health care institutions? -(Int erjection)- MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

I would like to draw the honourable members' attention to Citation 315 (2) of Beauchesne. It is irregular to reflect upon, argue against or in any matter call in question in debate the past acts or proceedings of the House, on the obvious ground that having besides tending to revive discussions upon questions which have already once been decided, such reflections are uncourteous to the House and irregular in principle. So I would suggest to the honourable member, that besides being repetitious, that if he has some new questions to ask, he should concern himself with something in that nature.

The Honourable Member for St. Boniface on a point of order. MR. LAURENT L. DESJARDINS: On a point of order. Would you rule, Mr. Speaker, that if there has been mi s representation in this House that is something newer where we shouldn't deal with it again. The Minister has repeatedly said that the morale with the nursing profession has been good and now he's investigati ng, and I wonder if we could speak about this, Mr. Speaker, or because it was mentioned once . MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please. I would suggest to the honourable member that he read the transcript of Hansard of what I have said.

The Honourable Member for Brandon East. MR. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Then I'll perhaps put my qu es tion in a different way. Inasmuch as the Minister and the government have settled with the doctors for an amount, I understand, amounting to approximately 22.2 percent over two years, will the Minister now consider whether the financing that he's made available to the health care institutions in this province does actually enable those institutions to provide a settlement with these other health care workers that somewhat approaches that 22.2 percent?

Because it seems to me that they're far far from able to offer that amount of money at this time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I believe that the Health Sciences Centre has made a substantial offer that is being considered and debated by the union at the present time that does correct what inequi ties my honourable friend may feel exist in respect to the wage scales of support workers in the health field. I would hope that the collective bargaining process will resolve that issue. MR. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, ina smuch as it is reported that the strike may occur at midni ght tonight and will be province-wide, affecting many institutions and thousands of patients, as well as hundreds and hundreds of workers, can the Minister gi ve us any assurance that he intends to do something, intends to take some action at least to avoid this walkout in the health care institutions as of midnight tonight? Is the Minister prepared to do something at this time? MR. SHER MAN: Wel l, Mr.

Speaker, we have worked diligently to assure that contingency plans are in place, we have worked cliligently to ensure that honest, meaningful bargaining and conciliation has gone on on a continuing basis, it's continuing to go on. I don't believe, Sir, that at this point in time the government, the province, should intervene in that process. Obviously, if the future presents us with situations that are critical to the health care of Manit obans, further action would have to be contempla ted by government and would be contemplated.

I don't belie ve, Sir, that's the case at the present time, I believe the collective bargaining process can take .care of the situation and the goodwill that has been evident on both sides of the table, notwithstanding disagreement, will produce a settlement in the normal bargaining process. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister how he could make the statement here that everything meaningful is being done when he insists that the increase to the budget of the hospital would be 8 percent - that doesn't even meet the cost of living 22 - how can that be meaningful when the Minister was told repeatedly there is no way they could stay with 8 percent when all the supplies and the food has gone up by up to 20-25 percent, Mr. Speaker; how can they give fair wages? MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, all I can do is repeat what I said a few moments ago, that I think it's a substantial offer and I don't wish, obviously, to offer an opinion on whether it is substantial enough or not; that's not for me to say but a substantial, reasonable, meaningful offer has been made by the Health Sciences Centre to the union negotiators. That is the only answer I can give to my honourable friend from St. Boniface. 3961

Monday, 26 May, 1980. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon. MR. TOM BARROW: I would address my question to the Minister of Labour, Mr. Speaker, can the Minister tell the House or inform the House of the hourly rate paid to fir e fig hters in northern Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourab le Mini ster of Labour. MR. MacMASTER: I believe it's 3.15 , Mr. Speaker, a similar rate that's paid in all jurisdictions across the country. MR. BARROW: Could the Mini ster inform the House if there is a special overtime rate? MR.

MacMASTER: Again, not to my knowledge in any place, in any jurisdiction in Canada are there overtime provisions in the case of forest firefighting. There are provisions, I belie ve, under the Federal Income Tax Act which permits that type of thing and income tax returns are not filed on sums that are paid to forest fire fighters. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon with a final supplementary. MR. BARROW: Is there a special rate for statutory holidays? Well, I'll change it. Do you think it's time we got organized? MR. MacMASTER: I don't believe there is a special rate, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour ab le Mem ber for Transcona. MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Health and it arises out his comments regarding the spirit of goodwill within which health negotiations are taking place. Has his department or has he investigated the rejection by the Mani toba Health Organization of a voluntary services' agreement put forward via CUPE which has been accepted by the Health Sciences Centre as a situation that would arise and would hold in the unfortunate event of a strike taking place? MR. SHERMAN: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, and I might say to the Honourable Member for Transcona that, as he is probably aware, the Board of the MHO turned the proposal down as a board but recommended that individual facilities could enter into that type of arrangeme nt on their own voli tion with labour organizations and trade unions and that is what has happened in the case of the Health Sciences Centre. MR.

PARASIUK: I would ask if the Minister can give us the government's position with respect to strike situa tions, does it favour union and management agreeing on the voluntary provision of essential services in a strike or does it favour a position that is unstructured, which results in scabs being brought in; or results in essential services being curtai led; or results in legislation forcing workers back to work? Does he favour that alternative or the alternative put forward that is operable right now with the Health Sciences Centre and CUPE? MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, the key ingredient in making that determ ination, of course, is patient safety and I think any Minister of Heal th, any government, any opposition has to rely on the expertise of hospital admin istrators and ch iefs of medical staff as to what they belie ve constitutes patient safety in specific categorical cases of illness.

It's certainly desirable to work out a system that would provide for emergency staffing in essential services in the event of a walkout, in the event of a strike, but some of the conditions that are tied to that kind of proposal have not been acceptab le, up to this point in time, to some of the representatives who constitute the board of the MHO. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour ab le Member for Transcona with a final supplementary. MR.

PARASIUK: In view of the Minister's answer, is he prepared to contact the Ma nitoba Health Organiz ation and ask them to reco nsider their blanket general rejection of the concept of voluntary services agreements, even though they have said that despite their bla nket reject ion that lead in dividual hospita l boards come to a gene ral conclusion? Would the Minister contact the Manitoba Health Organiz ation and ask them to reconsider their general rejection of this very enlightened policy? MR. SHERMAN: No, I can't do that, Mr. Speaker.

I've already met with the MHO over the weeke nd; I've accepted their report to me that that policy is not acceptable to the board or the gen eral membership of MHO. As the honourable member knows the organization consists of a great number of facilities, all of which take their own independent views on matters of this kind, and I think that we have sufficient opportunity to test what, I agree with the honourable member, is a worthwhile initiative in the measure that they have taken which permits individual facilities to make their own choice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. HENRY J.

EINARSON: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct this question to the Minister of Agriculture. In view of the fact that I have had a number of phone calls over the weeke nd, and I'm sure many others of my colleagues have had the same, and the serious drought situation, I wonder if the Minister could indicate his program or plans that are hoped to be in place providing farmers in the livestock industry with both hay and grain, particularly with the dairymen who are in real dire straits because their feed supplies are quickly running out. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Agriculture. HON. JIM DOWNEY (Arthur): Mr.

Speaker, the action that has been taken is we've introduced a freight assistance to move pellets in from Thunder Bay. There should be some presence of those pellets 3962

Monday, 26 May, 1980. showing up the first part of this week. We've also got some alfalfa bales being brought in from Ontario, Mr. Speaker, that by later this week there should be some physical evidence of the alfalfa hay bales being moved into the province; along with, Mr. Speaker, a continua tion of hay being ide ntified within the province

whereas it is still available to move into the areas of feed shortages. So it's a matter of continuing to co-ordinate, identify and direct feed supplies where necessary to those people who are in most urgent need. Mr. Speaker, I would also like to indicate that the rain showers that were throughout parts of Manitoba last night did not totally alleviate the problem, but it has somewhat helped certain areas of the province. I think that it has removed, in those specific areas, some of the urgency that was being felt by the farmers.

So there are programs in place and we are activa ting, continually keep ing up with what is happening so that we can further move if the continued drought persists. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Speaker, I wish to pose a supplementary question to the Minister and ask if all the agricultural representatives are now informed as to what the plans are? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the department staff are being fully informed of what is available as far as pumping equip ment for dugout filling in conju nction with the PFRA as far as the feed program is concerned. As I indicated, Mr.

Speaker, on a CBC phone-in show today I made myself available to the agricultural community. If there are people who weren't able to contact anyone, to call me to let me know of any specific concerns that they had so we could deal with them. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Churchill. MR. JAY COWAN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minis ter of Labour and it follows on some comments that were made earlier to the Member for Flin Flon.

I'd ask the Minister if he can indicate what action his department is taking in regard to some very serious safety and health concerns that have been expressed by persons fighting fires in northern Manitoba and throughout the province in regard to their own safety and health as well as safety equipment that is being provided to them. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour ab le Mini ster of Labour. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Speaker, our department is reviewing the type of equ ipm ent that's being supplied. I think we 'll find that, in fact, simi lar equipment has been supplied over a period of time.

There is always a possibility of upgrading types of equipment that people use for a variety of services provided. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Well, the Minister is entirely right, that there is always an opportunity and many times a necessity to upgrade and I would encourage him in those efforts.

In the meanwhile, and I believe that there is some urgency to his investigations, but in the meanwhile is the Minis ter prepared to issue bu lletins to persons fighting fires in regard to safety and health hazard that they may face and also to ensure that supervisors are adequately instructed as to the safety procedures that are in place and should be followed, and would he take it upon himself to use his department to assure himself that those safety procedures are in fact in place and are being adequately followed? MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Speaker, I would think that the average chargehand in charge of a group of citizens in northern Manitoba fighting a fire today is far more knowledgeable of safety and healt h precautions that should be taken in fighting fires than all 57 of us here in the House put together. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour ab le Member for Churchill with a final supplementary. MR. COWAN: Mr. Speaker, the Minister seems to be abdicating some of the responsibility of his government under legislation to ensure that safety and health procedures are followed.

My question to him is can he indicate what actions his government has taken in order to ensure that the provisions of the legislation are being followed and that fire fighters are working in safe and healthy conditions and ... MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please. The question is repetitive, The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. JUNE WESTBURY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Minister of Health.

I wonder, in view of the comments of a retired medical officer of health to the effect that the organized chaos of the NOP in that department has become disorganized chaos under the Conservative government, if the Minister will assure the House that he will be conducting a review - the medical officer also gave specifics - if he will be conducting a review of his department and eventually reporting to the House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. SHERMAN: First of all, Mr.

Speaker, let me say that the quote, I bel ieve, was the other way around but, in any event, I take the honourable membe r's qu esti on seriously and the situation seriously and I might say to her that we have, for two years in my department, been attempting to redraft or redraw The Public Health Act and that is part of a m�jor initiative which we intend to conclude by the ne <t session of the Legislature.

That also involves, obviously, a comprehensiv e study of the fragmentation of health services in the public health and environmental health areas and so there is a good deal of complex exploration that has to be completed, but it is in process and it is our intention to integrate those health services as quickly and as practically as we can. MRS. WESTBURY: My next question, Mr. Speaker, refers to a statement by the Minister made on May 3963

Monday, 26 May, 1980. 2nd to the effect that the government is appealing to nurses to return to work and I wondered if he could report to the House on the success that he is having with that appeal. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I don't have the statistics with me although I can get them but, as I recall, the appeal has had considerable . success in that a substantial number of upgrading courses at Red River Commu nity College and in Thompson and, I believe, at Assiniboine Commu nity College, are under way with the definitely projected conclusion at this point that some 100 to 11 0 nurses who had left the service will have completed upgrading courses and be back in the nursing market by the end of this calendar year. We would hope that numb er will increase even yet as we have additional applications for upgrading. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honouable Member for Fort Rouge with a final supplementary. MRS. WESTBURY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In view of the fact that up to May 15th of this year 233 nurses have left our province to practice elsewhere, what, if anything, is the Minister or is his department doing to encourage those nurses or other nurses to stay in our province? What is he doing to prevent this exodus of our trained nurses from our province? MR. SHERMAN: Everything we can, Mr.

Speaker. wearing of seat belts would have prevented certain accidents and consequently, if some people involved in accidents were not wearing seat belt protection, their settlements might be reduced accordingly. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I did anticipate that supplementary question and that's why I volunteered my feelings on that subject. I do not believe it's appropriate for Crown corporations, in this case MPIC, to act in such a way that would presume a position has been taken or that would presume a law is in place, Mr. Speaker.

The province of Manitoba does not have compulsory seat belt legislation and I believe in this instance the courts have ruled fairly and correctly interpreted the situation as it exists in Manitoba with no legislation being in place. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Elmwood with a final supplementary. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I ask the Minister whether he would be prepared to bring the 5,000 convincer to the legislature so that some of the sceptics, and in particular the Minister of Hig hways, might be jolted into proper recognition of their use. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I cite Rule No. 332(

b) of our own rules that prohibits members from bringing exhibits of any kind into the Cham ber. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for The MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Pas. Elmwood. MR. RUSSELL DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Government Services responsible for Autopac and ask him whether he sup ports Autopa c's campa ign to encourage the wearing of seat belts such as through the purchase of their 5,000 convincer and through their public education programs? MR. SPEAKER : The Honour able Minis ter of Government Services. HON. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): Mr.

Speaker, I can indicate to the honourable member and to the House that I am very supportive of the corporation's efforts by way of demonstration through the unit known as a convincer that hopefully wi ll travel through the fairs of the province in dicati ng to Manitobans the use of the seat belt and how it can, if individuals are so inclined, be a safety device that ought to be used. I certainly encourage their support of such worthwhile organizations as the Manitoba Safety League in the matters of education.

I have some difficulty, and I will be discussing that with the management and general manager of Autopac, with respect to their taking legal positions, or their positions without changes of legislation within the province, to attempt to interpret in a legalistic way any penalties to Manitoba motorists who are not wearing seat belts in court situations. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I asked the Minister whether he supports MPIC and their court challenges where they are qu esti oning the amount of settlements given to people especially in that the MR. RONALD McBRYDE: Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Finance in his role as Minister responsible for Hydro. I am wondering what action, if any, the Minister intends to take on behalf of the commu nity of Cross Lake which faces serious problems because of low water levels which could be or appeared to be related to Lake Winnipeg and Jenpeg regulation. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr. Speaker, I understand that Hydro personnel are looking at the question now.

There's a problem with the ferry being grounded and I know that the Chief Executive Officer was in Cross Lake and Norway House and Jenpeg over the weekend. They are trying to determine whether there are alternatives that would allow them to have the water level raised without having a severe loss of storage in doing so. We expect to have a report back from Hydro fairly shortly on that. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question this time to the Minister of Health. I wonder, Mr.

Speaker, if the Minister has had any concern expressed to 11im by the community of Cross Lake in relation to the quality of their water supply in the community of Cross Lake. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. SHER MAN: Not to my knowledge, Mr. Speaker, but I'll check. 3964

Monday, 26 May, 1980. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for The Pas with a final supplementary. MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Speaker. A question to the Minister of Highways. I wonder what action, if any, the Department of Hig hways will be taking because the community of Cross Lake no longer has transportation services with the grounding of the ferry because of the low water levels in that area. Is the Minister able to come up with or arrange any alternative means of transportation for Cross Lake? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Highways. HON. DON ORCHARD (Pembina): Yes, Mr.

Speaker, that alterna tive transportation to replace the grounded ferry is under review right now by people in my department. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. George. MR. BILLIE URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A question to the Minister of Agriculture. He earlier mentioned that there's assistance available for the transp ortation of pellets from Thunde r Bay.

I question the Minister whether the assistance that is available to farmers will be from a Manitoba point or will it be all the way from Thunder Bay, as the freight assistance may not go very far if the base area where those pellets will be hauled from will be the Thunder Bay point. Could he clarify that for us? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Agriculture. HON. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): Yes, Mr. Speaker. In the introduction of the program the assistance applies to a maximum of 20 per ton and it does apply from the point of Thunder Bay. MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I ask the Minister whether his department has been able to locate any other supplies within the province of Manitoba or in closer. proximity to our need area than the Thunder Bay point for pellets, and also would the transportation assistance equally apply to the hay that has to move in all the way from Ontario as the base? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, there are some other pellets available through the private sector, as well. The second part of his question, does the freight apply, yes, Mr. Speaker, the freight assistance does apply.

There is a buffer zone of 50 miles, that it has to be from a distance of 50 miles or more, that that feed is moved from the source to the farm. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. George with a final supplementary. MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Could the Minister indicate to us what actions he now proposes to take, seeing as his efforts to indicate to the packers that they should not take advantage of the farmers with low prices, seeing that that avenue did not work, what action is he now proposing to take so that the disaster prices do not prevail in the marketplace for cows and cattle coming into the market? MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, I think the program of introducing feed assistance has encouraged more livestock producers to keep their breeding herds on farms, plus the first livestock that would be moved would be cull animals, so I think we have to put it into perspective that the type of animals and the reflection at the marketplace, how it relates to those kind of animals.

Thirdly, it is my understanding that there has been a fair amount of rain in Alberta, which is the largest beef producing province in western Canada, and the amounts of cattle could be held off the market or would normally come to market because of drought in that area will be somewhat reduced. So I think in the overall picture of livestock marketi ngs, smaller supplies or lesser supplies will be coming to the marketplace and in fact I think we will see a stabler price. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Labour. MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Speaker, in answer to a question posed by the Member for Churchill as related to Ray-0-Vac and the layoffs. There was in fact 30 people laid off sometime ago. At that particular time, the company Claims they had to let them go because they lost a very substantial out-of country contract. I'm pleased to say that 24 people have been recalled. I don't have access to why or what new contracts they have, but 24 out of the 30 are now back at work. -(Int erjection)- MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Time for question period having expired, proceed with Orders of the Day. ORDERS OF THE DAY ORDER FOR RETURN MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. WESTBURY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre, THAT an order of the House do issue for a Return of the following information:

(1) The number of corporations reporting under The Corporation Capital Tax Act in each of the last three reporting years;

(2) The number of corporations taxable under The Corporation Capital Tax Act in each of the last three reporting years;

(3) The amount of tax paya ble under The Corporation Capital Tax Act to the Provincial Treasury in each of the last three reporting years;

(4) The full particulars of the costs to the provincial government of administering this Act in the last three years. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Finance. 3965

Monday, 26 May, 1980. MR. CRAIK: We'll accept that Order, Mr. Speaker. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour ab le Gove rnm ent House Leader. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION presented and carried, and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair for Commu nity Services and Correct ions, and the Honourable Member for Virden in the Chair for Agriculture. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPL V - AGRICULTURE MR. CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (Virden): I call the committee to order and it think it's the desire of the Minister that we turn to Resolution 8, 3.(b), I guess it is. We passed Admi nistration . . . There were some questions there regarding contracts.

The Minister, I think. is prepared to go back if the committee wants. He would prefer to, I think, clean it up and then go on. But I'm again at the mercy of the committee if that's . . . MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I'm expecting the Member for Lac du Bonnet, who raised some of the points, in probably about ten minutes. If we say hold it till about . . . or if not, we can go one. I know the question that he wanted to raise. If you would like to leave it for about say 10 minutes or so and then come back to it, it would certainly be convenient. MR. CH AIRMAN: In that case, we are on Resolution 10.

The Honourable Minister. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I think for the member of the opposition who raised the question - the Member for St. George brings up the point, it was the Member for Lac du Bonnet - we can hold it till tomorrow or whenever. MR. URUSKI: No, he'll be here shortly, Mr. Chairman. MR. DOWNEY: Okay, that's fine. We might as well proceed on a normal basis and then pick it up. MR. URUSKI: Come right back to this. MR. DOWNEY: Or pick it up later on or whatever; proceed on a normal basis today for this afternoon. MR. URUSKI: And pick it up maybe this evening. That's fine. That would be agreeable, Mr.

Chairman, to pick up Resolution 8 this evening, and finish it off this evening, and go on to 10 at the present time and get as far as we can until this evening. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(a)( 1) Salaries. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister indicate . . . I believe he, and I've asked him with respect to Salaries, look at the entire division, the entire agricultural division which includes the five areas, and just give us the staffing changes that he proposes so that we'd have the global amount; what the total was last year, what the changes are this year, Mr. Chairman. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, the information I have available to me, I think we're sitting with the same amount of staff as we had last year . . . MR. URUSKI: Which is? Or is that a problem? MR. DOWNEY: No, Mr . Chairman, that's no problem. They're the same, Mr. Chairman, 195.47 SMYs in that whole division. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, so then there is no change in the staffing pattern of that division? MR. DOWNEY: That's correct, Mr. Chairman. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, with respect to the agricultural representatives, has there been any relocation of staff throughout the regional offices?

Have there been any shifts of staff from any of the regions, Mr. Chairman, and to what communities, from where to where? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, there has been no major change in regional offices or allocation of staff, except - I'll qua lify that, I think there is one - last year there was some question about the reallocation of staff in the Eastern Region, some questions on whether or not the regional office would be moved from Beausejour to Steinbach. There will no change as far as the regional office is concerned; it will remain the same.

I think there has been a re allocation of one of the ag. reps. out of that office to, or to be anticipated at this particular time; the Director indicates that there copuld be one ag. rep. moved from the office into the region and that would be moved to Dugald, that we would be putting a full time ag. rep. in the Dugald office. There is a part time ag. rep. for that area; now that office would have a full time ag. rep. But as far as the initial question of moving of the regional office, no, the regional office will not be moved out of Beausejour. MR. URUSKI: So, in the Eastern Reg ion, specifically, Mr.

Chairman, there basically will be an upgrading of position of a part-time to a full-time in Dugald and any re-allocation of staff from Beausejour to the Steinbach area or what remains now is what will continue; is that correct? MR. DOWNEY: Over and above that, Mr . Chairman, there's consideration being given to move two staff man years from the Beausejour office to Steinbach. That would be the extent of the move from the Beausejour office. MR. URUSKI: Could the Minister then give me, if he has that, the staff complement of both the Beausejour office and the Steinbach office? There must be a breakdown there. 3966

Monday, 26 May, 1980. MR. DOWNEY: I think, Mr. Chairman, the objective is to make sure that the Eastern and Southeastern region is supplied with an extension service that best serves the need of the agricultural community and certainly that's what we're proceeding to do, to make sure that kind of regional distribution is available to the farm community. A specific question the mem ber asks is the complement of Beausej our and of Steinbach at this particular time? MR. URUSKI: Yes. MR. DOWNEY: I'm getting that information. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, while the Minister is getting that information, I would like to know with respect to the present drought situation, what the chain of command is in terms of delivery and contact. I heard the Minister today on the telephone, on the radio program, indicating that the ag. reps. in all areas are the initial contact point.

How are the regional offices involved in respect to identifying what shortages or what availabilities are of feed and the like, what is the chain of command that has been set up and how is it working in terms of enquiries; what kind of enquiries are coming in to the offices; what kind of hay supplies are there, and that kind of information. How is it coming forward? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, the member asked the chain of command. There are actually two mechanisms.

First of all, the department system works on a contact to the ag. rep., who communicates through to the regional director, who is in touch with both the Assistant Deputy Minister and also the Chairman of the Drought Committee, who is Ed Hudek, who is in charge and touche s base with the overall government Drought Committee. The other system, of course, are the MLAs, who are able to feed into the government what they're finding out in their area on a direct basis.

Basically, it's the ag. rep., who can either, within his own area of information, if it's a matter a feed requirement, can either direct a known source to that farmer or can put into the system the request for feed supplies, and that should happen very quickly, plus they are in direct connection at the committee level with PFRA so that if pumps are required that information can be put through the central comm ittee and pumps allocated. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I understand that. The point that I'm getting at is, is the Minister kept up to date on the numbers of enquiries for feed at this point in time?

What shortages is he forseeing in terms of feed supplies? The other question that I raised with him in the House earlier with respect to the pelleting of screenings: Is there any move and has there been any move undertaken to attempt to keep the screenings in Manitoba rather than having all the grain shipped to Thunder Bay or encouraging the elevator companies to maintain the screenings here and pelletizing them here? I believe there are local operators who can pelletize in the Winnipeg area, for example. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, without arousing a whole new area of deba te as far as moving of screenings out on a su bsidized rate and bringing them back on a subsidized rate, I will answer the member; at this particular time, we've identified or tried to identify all sources of screenings in the private sector and, as far as the government are concerned, make sure we secured some supplies that were known and available at Thunder Bay.

We have not taken total control of all supplies but have bought a certain number and there are certain numbers available again through the other elevator companies or through elevator companies who would normally be selling screenings in other areas of not only Canada but would be exporting them. It's a matter of moving in what has been requested, and we have had something like 200 requests, or inquiries, I should say, to this point. In relationship to that at this particular point, I think everyone has been accommodated. MR. URUSKI: Is that for hay, prima rily? MR. DOWNEY: No, Mr.

Chairman, it's inqurnes, would say, for hay, pellets, water pumping and that type of thing. That's more of a broad picture that I have. Again, certain farmers phone and find out what some of the costs are probably, and they have other alternative mechanisms or measures that they can carry out. So again, it's a matter of how long this problem persists and we're, as I've indicated, moving in alfalfa hays from eastern Canada. At this particular time, there appears to be sufficient quantities.

Again, as you see , the num bers of people that are requesting feed and are una ble to get pasture growth, then the demand will increase. But I think in total supplies, I think that we're finding that a lot of farmers do have some carry-over of feed and are somewhat reluctant to either sell it, but they're sitting on it for their own· purposes for this coming year, until there is some assurance that we will get a hay growth this coming year. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister indi cate with respect to the assistance for transportation of feed or hay . . .

He indica ted that the transportation costs will be f.o.b., for example, if the pellets will be f.o.b. at Thunder Bay. What impact on the cost of freight will that, I assume the 20 per ton, have? What is the freighting costs, say to bring in feed into let's say the Rock Lake or the Brandon area from Thunder Bay? What's the mechanism that is being used? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, the rates that we had to go with to start with were back haul rates and the figures that have been indicated to me that it would pretty well pay for the cost of the movement of pellets by truck to those kinds of areas.

That's on a two-way freight rate type of proposal and it's been indicated there are trucks that are moving down that have capacities coming back, so it's a back haul freight for them. It's not as if you were deadheading to get those pellets. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, the Minister can assure us that the assistance that is being provided can in fact cover the costs of moving that. Are the 3967

Monday, 26 May, 1980. railways moving any of those pellets at all at this time or has there been any movement of the pellets that the province has picked up? MR. DOWNEY: At this time, Mr. Chairman, I can only speak for what has happened wit hin the government, I can't speak for the private sector if they move some by train. We have been informed that there is an ability for the cars to be used but are still waiting on what the costs would be. But our immedia te move, because of the urgency, was to get trucks which can move right into the farmer's yard and accom modate the shortfall as qu ickl y as possible.

The trucking systems were the best that were available to this particular time. Now, on a larger quantity, if we were to move the train system, I have been assured that the cars in the province, at least, would be available to use them for the movement of product back. So these are the alternative things we have but, again, I want to stress that because of certain areas, the urgency, we felt that the trucking system on a back haul was the best system. Again, if you're looking at larger quanitities moving further distances, of course, the train system is the best system as far as large volumes are concerned. MR.

URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister indicate how many tons or what qua ntity has he been assured that is available to the province at this time? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, there really hasn't been a maximum put on what we are purchasing. The initial purchase was 1,000 tons that started the program off but we really haven't had any indication what ceilings are available on numbers and of course we're proceeding to secure supplies and, again, the private sector are getting into the business also of making available some pellets on their own.

I think the other area that we're moving on very rapidly and that's to make sure there are sufficient supplies of alfalfa hay; that's critical as far as the dairy industry is concerned and, again, trying to meet the needs of those people who are against it, without supplies. I can indicate from my firsthand experience in the region that is most severely affected, and that's in the southwest, the majority of people there have turned their livestock on to fall rye if they had fall rye, and other breeding herds.

They have marketed any animals they've bought for normal pasture season, that they have returned those cattle to the market and they have subsequently moved into the Ontario feeder business or feedlots or pastures in the east. But the individuals who have cow herds, if they haven't got fall rye, they've moved them on to their pastures, and again that moves the problem down the road into where are they going to acquire winter feed supplies.

That again gives us a bit more opportunity to irriga te some of the other known water sources onto tame pastures and tame hay grounds, and that is now being looked at, what programs could we put in place to encourage that kind of work to be done. Again, it's a matter of total water supplies, what are available, and how much of it can you use for these specific programs. The objective, of course, is to increase the total supply of roughage for this period and looking down the road for the fall and wintering season, just how much feed can we make available and try and put everything in place.

In fact, through the com mittee process, I'm sure that members of your side and our side would have ideas that they may be able to put on the table, that we could look at. It's a matter of using the collective minds in these kinds of situations. I don't think anyone has a particular monopoly on what can be done as far as alleviating the problems. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to be sure and certain that the Minister has available to him and is using every means at his disposal to make sure that there are adequate supplies of alternate feeds, such as pellets, that he can purchase.

Can he assure us that, in the event that there becomes an acute shortage of hay in the province, screened pellets such as he made a rough purchase of 1,000 tonnes at the present time, whether he can be assured of a steady supply to cover off any further requirements that his department might see? MR. DOWNEY: Again, I suggest, to put a total qua ntity on what is available is very difficult to do because we're seeing the normal process of shipping and moving grain into the export ports; the rate at which that grain goes in and is cleaned, of course, determines how many screenings are available.

I guess the alternative is that we could see and implement and would be a wise idea, and this is a good time to raise it, that we would see more elevator cleaning of farmers grains right here in western Manitoba or in Manitoba to remove the rougher screenings off of those grains to start with, so it isn't a dual haul; that we can in fact we can save more of that product before it goes out of the province. Those kinds of things also have to be part of what is taking place.

If a farmer is a mixed farmer and he's delivering several thousand bushels of grain, it might be a good idea to have it run over to the local elevator cleaner to take the screenings back for his own use. I think they're already doing that but it's, again, one of the other things that can be done. But then we lack the, I guess in a more spread-out areas, there is a lot of the areas of the province that don't have the pel leti ng equipm ent ava il able that is available at Thunder Bay or other port facilities. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, are there staff within the department specifically allocated to and assigned to do this kind of gathering of information on requirements and needs within the various regions? Is there a staff component that is doing most of the work there and how has the staff been allocated within the regional offices? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, the specifics of distributing the pellets, if that's what he is referring to, the handling of the different things that are available, we've contacted the elevator companies to have their agents assist with the distribution of them.

If an individual wants a partial load then there has to be a picking up of that and we have the agreement from the elevator companies to do that, that if there's a supply put in the elevator they can be 3968

Monday, 26 May, 1980. distributed on a piece meal basis, so that's one of the other. The staff of the Department of Agriculture and the Union of Municipalities - and when I say the union, the local elected officials - are meeting; they are part of the overall commitee and in a lot of communities, as you people know as an MLA, a lot of the council people are called because the farmer is running into trouble. They're being fully alerted. The Minister of Municipal Affairs is meeting with them today in Brandon in the western region to outline in specific detail what all is in place and how we can work together.

Again, it's a matter that the links of communication are kept open, or the lines of communication are kept open so that everyone knows what's going on; it takes extra staff. And I know what the member is referring to. If there was an area specifically set up to deliver or needed for alfalfa hay in a dairy area, then I think it would certainly warrant additional term staff to be put in place, but that's his specific job. I haven't had indications from staff yet at this point that we haven't been able to handle it through what's available. But I think it's a good point, and I'm quite prepared to . . .

Goodness knows, in some of these areas there are quite a few spare hands around right now, particularly without any rain and there isn't any spraying to do, as normally would be done. So there are a few people who need the employment as well and it's a matter of using all hands in the best way to distribute and facilitate farmers in need. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I gather from the Minister then that existing staff are doing the day-to day work in helping to co-ordinate the information on feed supplies. MR. DOWNEY: With the municipal people. MR. URUSKI: The Minister says, With municipal people.

There must be a central point in the region in terms of where the ag. reps. funnel their information in. Like in your area, I would presume that, in the Minister's region, the Brandon office would be the co-ordinating area to facilitate the information as to how much feed is available for sale, what qua ntities of feed and the needs of the area and the like.

Has the Minister been able to - you know, it's been over a week now since his co-ordinating committee has been set up - have they been able to identify and what kind of qua ntities of feed have they been able to identify that exist in terms of hay supplies within our own province. MR. DOWNEY: We ll, as I indicated some two weeks ago when we set up our co-ordinating office, at that particular time there were some supplies available for a week or two. It was a matter of farm people that had supplies were holding them and not moving them.

Since then, of course, we've added the additional screening pellets, alfalfa, into the system, or it's in the process of getting into the system. The distribution to date has been through contacting of the ag. rep. office and the main western co ordinating office has been in Brandon, that the ag. reps. could get their information from Brandon or vice versa, that it would go out of Brandon.

What we are proposing to do, that's strictly with the Agriculture Committee, of course, it's all feeding into the central drought committee of the government, as I indicated, as supplies of alfalfa hay or feed move into the province it's a matter of not having to haul the hay to Brandon, for example, if it's needed in the dairy, the milk shed area of Winnipeg.

So we will be proceding to put a specific office in place through the ag. rep. system in the eastern area so that we can make sure that the dairy ind ustry is accommodated through that particular office and it's a matter of having two main points of contact, particularly when the product is moving from the eastern part of Canada. MR. URUSKI: So I gather, Mr. Chairman, we are in the process of moving hay in from Ontario now. That's fine.

Has the Minister got information or is information available to him on what supplies are still on hand that the department can guesstimate, if they haven't been able to co-ordinate the information at least guesstimate what kind of supplies are there on hand; how much is and has been moved in from the east in terms of supplementing our dairy herds; what else is required, what are our needs in the immediate future. MR. DOWNEY: The actual trading or hay available for trading at this time, Mr.

Chairman, is very little, as I have indicated there is a reluctance of anyone that's prepared to sell their feed, so that actual trading ... .

To be more specific, in qua ntities of feed supplies there have been such figures quantified as enou g h feed in custom feed lots to hold something like 10,000 head of cattle for a three to four month period, that's just what's been indicated, that's corn silage and feed supplies which doesn't necessarily say that the feed has to be fed in those feed lots, I'm sure it could move into the dairy industry, it could be trucked, the same as other types of feed but as far as marketable feed supplies, and that's basica lly.what we have to go on, there's very little trading.

As far as quantities, there is very little that is available in the province. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN Henry J. Einarson (Rock Lake): The Member for St. George . MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Now we're getting more specific here. I appr eciate the information that the Minister has given us. Could he tell us as to how much hay is available from the east and how much of it has been trucked in at this point. Are they aware of the tonnage at all that may be available and how much is being trucked in? MR.

DOWNEY: On tonnage, of actual tonnage, really we've just had indication from Ontario that there are fairly large supplies of alfalfa held over from last year because of the good hay this year, they've been getting extremely good, favourable hay conditions this year, so the new crop of hay looks good. As far as act ual provincial government movement of the product of hay in, there hasn't been any to this date, move in, it's in the process of being put in place.

However, I've been informed that there have been some loads coming in through the private sector, through people who truck cattle down and have brought hay back and you know, this is hard to qua ntify because we don't know how many 3969

Monday, 26 May, 1980. trucks are doing it, but again, I think that are far as qua ntifying what is there, there appears to be a fairly large amount of hay ava ilable, indications to us availabili ty is good. The movement of that in, I would hope we should see some physical evidence by the latter part of this week. MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Minister has used at least the initial stages in his purchase of 1,000 tonnes of grain pellets at the Lakehead on what one could call the feed bank concept.

Has he got any of his staff in the field - it appears that the likely only pla ce that hay is available is in the Ontario market - is there anyone that he has going out and, for example, making sure that purchases are being made so that hay supplies are being gathered to make sure that the point that we raised last week of the possible upward swing of scalping in the feed market, doesn't occur.

If the Minister has any plans in this respect, mind you I think it's getting a bit late at this point in time, if hay is starting to move, that the supplies be cornered or at least a foreseeable supply as to what the province might be able to allocate for itself or its producers in Ontario. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, we have two staff members that are going to be, or are in Ontario, or on the way to Ontario as of now, we have an office offered to us by the provincial government, a central office in Ontario, plus the Truckers Association have been contacted and that part of the setup is in place; plus the Ontario Cattlemen's Association are working with the staff, identifying different areas where there may be feed supplies available. So we do have staff in place contacting the farmers in that particular area and a central office which has been set up or offered to us by the Ontario government.

Full co-operation, by the way, from them, the people of Ontario, as far as accommodating our needs and I think that's the key and we are, as I say, in the process of getting loads on the road, I think that's as far as I can indicate at this time. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister indicate, I presume the region that's he talking about for hay supplies is southwestern Ontario, I presume is the area that they are . . . Or what area of the province are the hay supplies coming from?

If he could indicate what kind of prices the hay is coming in at the present time and what are the prices of the pellets that have been purcha sed at the Lakehead? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, the areas of Ontario, first of all, there is some hay available in the northern part of Ontario I've had indic ated to me, plus southern Ontario. It's too early to, I think, put a price on what it's going to arrive at in Manitoba. As I say, it's difficult to put a price on at this particular time because it's in that process.

Pellets, I understand, the information I have is that they're going to cost in the neighbourhood of 65 a ton. MR. URUSKI: A tonne? MR. DOWt,tt:Y: A tonne. Now, that's the first batch MR. URUSKI: F.o.b. Lakehead. MR. DOWNEY: No, that would be a cost to the farmer at the farm. That's the initial product. Now, that price could go up; you know, it depends on how many of them are ava ilable through the private sector. We had to move to get a supply on hand. That is basically where we're at at this particular time. MR. URUSKI: The Minister indicated he couldn't tell us what hay would be arriving.

Really, the question I have is, have hay prices in terms of the price of hay within the Ontario region escalated at all with this or what is the price of hay being paid for just on the farm in Ontario at the present time? What are they selling the hay for? MR. DOWNEY: I'd like to have more information, to be specific at a later time in the estimates if I could, Mr. Chairman. We haven't seen any indication of escalating hay prices in Ontario because of the fact there was a reasonable carry-over. The new crop of hay is just starting to come off.

You know, there are several things that are stabilizing it, plus I think the fact that when we heard the weather reports out of Alberta; some of the amounts of rainfall that they're getting in some of the livestock country there would alleviate some of their problems. The region which has to be supplied with additional feed, again, is something we have to keep track of. I guess, you know, the other thing that we have to remember is that we also are in a period of pasture growth. It's been slow. We don't normally see a lot of cattle go to pasture until the first part of June.

So there's been some pastures in the northern part of the province that I think will be able to accommodate a lot of those cattle that now may need some additional supplementary feed for another week, until the normal pasture time is here. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. A.R. (Pete) ADAM: Mr. Chairman, I believe the pellets that we have purchased at the present time is primarily for the dairy herds or is that for supplementary pasture. I think that's the imme diate concern at the present time; it's not for winter feed but rather for supplementary pasture where it is limited.

Speaking to the auction mart in Ste. Rose, the manager of the auction mart yesterday, I enquired from him just what was happening insofar as cattle movements are concerned. Those cattle that are coming in, they're just starting to come in now; the people who are unloading them are selling good stock that they should be keeping. It's just begun last week really and the concern there is because they do not have pasture available. There's one fellow that I know; according to the manager of the Ste.

Rose Auction Mart, advised me that he had brought 25 yearling heifers in that he would normally keep, and he's bringing another 25 this coming Friday. I had a call from the president of the Ste. Rose Cattleme n's Association as well and they were concerned more of the long-term and whether we 3970

Monday, 26 May, 1980. were . . . In fact I did speak to the Minister last week about it. They were concerned about us keeping supplies here, what we had, so it wouldn't be sold out or now we see that we're hauling back from Ontario. But I would assume then that the pellets that have come in, where are they going to be stored? Are they just to co-ordinate the need and arrange for a trucking; is that the way it's done? MR. DOWNEY: I've indicated to the committee that we have some capacity to store them with some of the elevator com panies and I specifically said Manitoba Pool have some capacity.

I think in the majority of the areas where they are having difficulties the farmers themselves will have their own storage. If it's a matter of taking a direct truckload of screenings, that most farmers who have livestock have some facilities to store a truckload and it's a matter of most of those people who are in need will put them where they can feed them in short order. You know, they aren't buying them because they don't need them and it's not a matter of storing up a long-term supply; it's a matter of making sure that they have some to last probably for two weeks.

I think most farm people who are needing them have that kind of storage capacity on their farms. MR. ADAM: I'm just wondering how this feed is coming through now. Highway No. 1 is closed and several other highways in Ontario. Would it have to come in via the United States or how is it moving, because all traffic has been clos ed as of this morning, I understand. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, it's indicated to me that they are rerouting and being able fo come in via Fort Frances, that there is another route available to them and they are able to get here. That's the information that I have at this particular time. MR.

ADAM: Did I understand correctly that the cost of transportation will be 20 a tonne? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I indicated that was the maximum that would be paid per tonne for transportation. MR. ADAM: That's the maximum that we will pay, so anything above that the farmer would have to pay; is that correct? MR. DOWNEY: That's correct, Mr. Chairman. MR. ADAM: I see. Do we have a figure of what the cost is at this time? MR. DOWNEY: No, Mr. Chairman. MR. ADAM: No, the tonne, it's a long tonne, is it? 2,200 lbs. for a tonne. That would be, it could be 40 a tonne. Is that what they're talking about? MR.

DOWNEY: No, Mr. Chairman, I ind icated earlier to the Member for St. George the maximum would be 20 per tonne for freight assistance. MR. ADAM: What I'm trying to determine if we know ... MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Just a minute. The Honourable Minister. MR. DOWNEY: don't know what point the member is trying to make. I have indicated that there is a maximum amount that we will pay for freight assistance and that is 20 per tonne. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order please. Maybe if I could just suggest to the Member for Ste. Rose, the Minister has gone through this price mechanism with the Member for St.

George and I'm sure that the Member for St. George could give him all that information and clarify points that he may have. Would that be in order? The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, what I'm trying to determine is how much additional the farmer would have to pay . . . ? MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I indicated earlier that we were working on a backhaul figure for trucks that were coming out of Thunder Bay, and the figures that we have, avai lable to us from the trucking industry, that it would pretty well pay what that cost of freight was.

Now if it was a one-way haul and the farmer were doing it for himself, it might be somewhat higher than that but he could still get paid up to 20.00 a tonne for doing that if he were using his own trucking equipment. But we are basing it on fully utilizing the equipment that's coming back from Thunder Bay at this particular time. Now I think it's a matter of assessi ng what the length of time and the amount of feeds that have to be brought in. If that policy has to be reviewed in two weeks or th ree weeks time then, fine.

But to date we see the truGks moving back and we're using them to the best of our ability to accommodate the best use of facilities available. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. SAMUEL USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister - perhaps he's dealt with it and if he has then he need not reply - whether or not he has been able to qua ntify the extent of damage to this date, as a result of the drought conditions in terms of either tonnages of production lost or cost of the damage to the farmers in Manitoba and then what his expectations are with moisture or without moisture?

It seems to me that we should be in a position, through the field staff, to measure the extent of recovery that is possible should we do receive some reasonable amount of rain in the near future and to what extent it is beyond recovery - I'm talking about hay in particular, both native and tame hay. MR. DOWNEY: The first indication I can give the member, I have dealt jus t briefly with it earlier, and that is in certain regions of the province we have seen the livestock go into the rye fields and of course the fall rye, the people with cattle have used that up. The people that didn't have fall rye have 3971

Monday, 26 May, 1980. gone to their hay land and anyone tha t was depending on hay land, if the cattle pastured for too long then, of course, they lost their hay crop. I guess on a time period that we could still see because when we talk tame hay we could still see quite a recovery of growth if we received adequate rainfall up to the 1st of July because of the normal response of alfalfa to later rains with the first, second and third cut situation. If it doesn't rain for the first cut then the second, you could look for actually what would be a second cut.

The native pastures, any native pasture that is pastured down heavily the last fall or even if it wasn't, there is very little regrowth taking place particularly in the southwest region of the province. It just hasn't recovered now. There were showers last night that might have revitalized a little bit of it but, in a general sense, there hasn't been any real good regrowth on the native pasture. Anybody that has depended on native pasture has to go to the hay land, then we're looking at virtually eliminating the majority of our hay crop if it doesn't rain.

We're prolonging the situation by bringing in feed and holding cattle off hay lands. I think to quantify the total picture is a little difficult this time. However, our staff at this point, more work has been put into trying to distribute and make sure people have immed iate supplies available but that's a point that has to be picked up and monitored to try and get a reading on, where we're at. I know the Chairman of our drought committee, Mr.

Ed Hudek, in his overall work that he is doing is that we have to put every effort forward to use areas that can be irrigated; that we can use our alfalfas that can be irrigated; to use our supplies of water that are known, to increase the total feed supply wherever or however it can be increased.

I indicated, before the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet was here, that any ideas from members of our side of the House, the committee sitting here during these estimate debates, if they have ideas or specific proposals that may work to help increase the total supply, or identify areas that may be worked on, I'm sure they're welcome because we don't have a monopoly on how to increase total feed supplies in all areas. As rural representatives, if you have input, it would be valuable to our committee as it is to me. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 5.(a). The Honourable Minister. MR.

DOWNEY: If you have a binful of alfalfa hay in your constituency that you don't need . . . MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask the Minister whether or not he is now in a position to indicate what influence this is having on the BIAP Program, which his option so-called, and it has been open to May 31, whether it has accelerated the selling off and the withdrawing from production, or whether it has had any im pact on the existing clientele of the BIAP Program? MR. DOWNEY: No doubt, Mr.

Chairman, the deadline of May 31s t would make your decision up as far as paying back funds to the province or not, has to be assessed. I think that, particularly in light of no pasture growth and cash outlays, it may have to be P!f!ced for to purchase feed supplies.

Again, that's one of the decisions that I think could cause a hardship or create a hardship on those people who may have to find additiona l funds, and it was indicated to me today that particular individual - I would have to say that we've had good response and I haven't got an update as of today but we've had pretty good response on those people that have opted out, but again, some people may not have the ability to pay back those funds before the 31s t and activate their option.

So again, as I indicated today on the radio phone-in show, that's one of the things that we would be reviewing and be doing it very quickly because, in fact, it isn't common sense on one hand to put programs in place to help the cattle industry and on the other hand penalize them by having to pay funds back. MR. USKIW: That's the whole point of my question, Mr. Chairman. If people are responding to the Minister's suggestion as to how to deal with the BIAP Program, they obviously are going to have their response somehow modified by their abilities, or lack of abilities, because of climatic conditions.

So, let's give the individual the position of wanting to respond but not being able to. It seems to me that's a fair qu estion to put to the government for review because it may be very counterproductive to make those demands under these kinds of circumstances. So I hope the government is taking a good look at that before they take another decision on that question, with respect to those that are volunteering their payments back. It's not that I'm recommending it though, Mr. Chairman. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 5.(a)(1)- pass; 5.(a)(2) pass - the Member for Ste. Rose. 5.(a)(2)? We're on 5.(a)(2). MR.

ADAM: We're on 5.(a)( 1). MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No, we're on 5.(a)(2), I'm sorry. MR. ADAM: It doesn 't matter anyway. I'm wondering why they have to increase . MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Pardon? MR. ADAM: There's quite an in crease there on the salaries. I'm wondering ... MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, it's a normal salary increase. It's just a normal salary increase, Mr. Chairman, that we're ... MR. ADAM: Is this the department that organizes meetings, extension meetings or seminars in the rural areas? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, this is the Agricultural Extension Service ag. reps. MR. ADAM: Do they organ ize other work?

Whatever they do, like do they organize meetings, seminars, and so on? MR. DOWNEY: If they're required to, yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. ADAM: understand that there have been some meetings organized in some areas and I am 3972

Monday, 26 May, 1980. referring in particular to meetings in Brandon. Has there been such meetings organized in the Brandon area by this department? MR. DOWNEY: Not in specific unless it's an ag. rep. meeting with farmers or some specific thing, not any different than in your area or in any other area. It's his way of communicating with farmers. If he wants to have a meeting with farm people then he organizes it and has someone in to ... It's a matter of an extension process that he has available to him. MR. ADAM: There has been some fairly substantial meetings, I understand, where guest speakers have been in. Mr. Deveson and others have been invited to take

part in those meetings. I'm referring to meetings sponsored by the department. MR. DOWNEY: I think to be more specific to the Member for Ste. Rose, who is wondering about the meetings, I think he is referring to meetings that have been held at the Agricultural Extension Centre in Brandon, whether it be the Outlook Conference or whether it be specific, where he refers to a special speaker coming in, those kinds of meetings are usually set up and organized by the principal of the school at Brandon, the principal of the Ag. School. MR. ADAM: The principal of the school? MR.

DOWNEY: Of the Agricult ural Extension Centre, Mr. Chairman. MR. ADAM: Have we had people there as well from the department? MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Chairman, that is the centre for the Agriculture Department in Brandon and ag. rep., the specialists, and it's really the regional office in Brandon. MR. ADAM: I've been receiving reports in regard to some of the meetings being held in Brandon and some of the farmers were complaining that they thought the main thrust of these meetings was to . . .

They spent a lot of time talking about alternate marketing and rationalization of transportation and so on and the impression that some of the farmers are getting is that the meetings are designed to downgrade the Wheat Board and also to try and condition the farmers to accept higher freight rates as opposed to the Crow rate, and so on. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, I don't know whether this is particularly the area where this should be deba ted but I can only respond to the member briefly on this and that's any reference that he may make to educational programs, I don't think because the department has set up a meeting and tried to provide information to the farm community that in any way, shape or form they are trying to condition or make anyone's mind up. I think it's a matter of exposing to the farm community different people. If the Member for Ste.

Rose is indicating that the president of Manitoba Pool Elevators, for example, is in any way trying to destroy the Canadian Wheat Board by him speaking to them, I'd have to totally disagree with the Member for Ste. Rose because I know the president of Manitoba Pool Elevators, who spoke at one of the seminars, is a very strong supporter of the Canadian Wheat Board, so what I think what he is saying is not totally correct. I think what the process that's been going on at the Ag.

School is to put on topics that are of interest brought forward by farmers; brought forward by Agro business; brought forward by the department, so that they can be truly debated in a farm group, not in any way to change anybody's ideas but at least to totally inform everyone what is going "on. And that is the process that I see taking place. MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, at no time did I say that Mr. Deveson was attacking the Wheat Board. MR. DOWNEY: Well, you didn't say ... MR. ADAM: just said that there was meetings which he had been invited to and other people besides him.

The impression that is left with farmers, and I've had people tell me who attended these meetings ... Su re, Mr. Deveson may not have attached the Wheat Board but he certainly attached the Crow rate and he was told in no uncertain terms at some of these meetings by some of the farmers that they didn't feel that he really and truly represented the best interests of the farmers.

The point I am tryi ng to make is that these mee tings are spons ored by the Department of Agriculture and the impression that's being left with the community is that they're designed to condition farmers on alternate marketing and also to try and condition them to accept the change in the Crow rate. This is the point that I am trying to make and I am just wondering whether our department should be doing that. We invite the kind of people at those meetings to speak and that's the way they speak. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I think on the point of order, to the Member for Ste. Rose, I believe we're talking about (a)

(1) Agricultural Representatives and Salaries. This is what you're on. I don't see the relevance of the comments the member is making on these grounds, but really, we're on (a)(2) which is Other Expenditures. I've given the Member for Ste. Rose a bit of leeway here but, as I said, we're really on (a)(2) which is Other Expenditures and I would appreciate if the member would want to make some comments on that. The Member for Lac du Bonnet on a point of order. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order.

It seems to me that (a)( 1) and (2) is the admin istration expenditures for the whole of that section, including the ag. reps., if I'm not mistaken. But in any event, when you're dealing with Agricultur e Extension, which involves meetings, you can discuss that either specifically under certain headings or you can discuss that under Salaries or Other Expenditures of the admin istration. I don't believe that one precludes the other, Mr. Chairman. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRM AN: The Honourable Minister. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, on the point of order. I don't mind the questions but I think it should 3973

Monday, 26 May, 1980. be kept into perspective here that we have already dealt with that part of the estimates, as far as the Ag. Extension Centre is concerned, which is what the member is referring to. MR. USKIW: Oh, I see, the Extension Centre in Brandon? MR. DOWNEY: That's what he was asking the questions on and I think we 're out of order by dealing with it because we've dealt with it although I don't mind dealing with it but I think it's a little out of order at this particular time. MR. USKIW: We can deal with it unde r your Salary. MR. DOWNEY: That's right. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose.

MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, unde r this item , organized meetings, and not only at the Extension Centre in Brandon but in other areas, and what I am saying is that the impression that the farmers are receiving is that somehow the department is trying to get a point across and this is why I'm registering this today. Complaints have come back to us that the department is trying to promote alternate markets as opposed to the Wheat Board and also the undermining of the Crow rate and I don't see why the department should be involved in that. That's up to the farmers. That's all I'm going to say on that. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, I think I clearly stated a few minutes ago that the ag. reps. weren't used for this purpose, that it was the Ag. Extension Centre and the principal organizes the meetings and I am sure that hasn't been any different under our government than it was under the previous, that there were extension programs, the Outlook Conferences, and they use that facility in that regard. The ag. reps. aren't used to do one thing or the other at these meetings. They organize their own meetings in relationship to local regional problems that they have or whatever. It's just a matter of their method of extension.

There's no direction to have them have specific meetings on anything. MR. DEPUTY MINISTER: I think the Member for Lac du Bonnet was first. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I don't want to make a big point of the point that the Member for Ste. Rose raises except that I think it's fair to say that there is nothing precluding an ag. rep. from organizing a meeting that subsequently picks groups of people or indi viduals to attend the other mee ting at the Extension Centre for the purposes of debate or propaganda, whatever it is, that the department wishes to be carried on. So that in that context the Member for Ste.

Rose is quite right. If ag. reps. have been utilizing their own discretion in talking to their clients, either in groups or as individuals, and giving them some encouragement to attend a function at the Br�don Centre wherein they discus sed the merits or otherwise of board marketing, or whatever, or open market, then the Member for Ste. Rose is quite right if he wishes to debate the point. I don't know of any example so I don't know whether it has occurred or not. The Member for Ste.

Rose belie ves that ag. reps. have been involved in this way and logically they may have been involved on their own in itia tive, not necessarily under instruction of the Ministers. But the fact that they are involved and on the public payroll makes it a legitima te point of discussion if the Member for Ste. Rose so wishes. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. George. MR. USKIW: I'm not finished. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you were. MR. USKIW: I would like to ask the Minister just why it is he is involved in another project with respect to sheep production in Manitoba.

It's a project under the Agro-Manitoba Agreement. MR. DEPU TY CH AIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. I believe there is a place further on in the estimates to deal with the Agro-Man Agreement under 8, and we could respond to it at that particular time. MR. USKIW: Under . . . MR. DOWNEY: Canada-Manitoba Value-Added Crops Production Agreement, Mr. Chairman. MR. USKIW: Okay, no problem. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, just a couple of questions I have yet relating to the assistance on the Drought Program.

Could the Mi nister ind icate whether this program is to be cost-shared with Canada? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, there have been meetings taken place and, yes, there is anticipation that it will be cost-shared on a 50150 basis. MR. URUSKI: I just wanted to make sure; for the entire program for the transportation assistance on both, Mr. Chairman? MR. DOWNEY: All indications that I have had so far, Mr. Chairman, is that we are negotiating with the feds and have requested it some time ago and haven't had response from the federal Minister. The program that we're talking about at this time, it would be cost-shared. MR.

URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to know how this assistance in terms of dollar per tonne of feed, when this formula was arrived at I presume that previous assistance programs were looked at; how does this compare to what was in place in '76 and 3974

Monday, 26 May, 1980. '75? There were two years. One year was a wet year assistance program and I think the following year was a dry year assistance program, in terms of assistance similar to what we have now. How does the feed freight assistance compare now and as it was previously? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, it's not exactly along the lines or specifics along the lines of the last program but I think it's been updated a little bit for the increased cost of freight and that type of thing.

So basically on the freight and the programs, they are pretty much along the same as they were, only we' re dealin g with a little bi t more cost of transportation and that has been accounted for. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, there is no intent on the government's part to provide assistance in terms of actual feed costs at this time? MR. DOWNEY: Not at this time, Mr.

Chairman, but again it's a matter of the length of time and the period at which this drought persists and other things that can be done, and I go back to my statement, what other programs we can introduce to produce more here in Manitoba rather than having to move all quantities in if we can encourage other ways of producing more feed then It reduces the amount that has to be hauled in and paid for in that manner. So it is a matter if we can encourage other forms of production through irrigation or that type of thing then it offsets the extended period of time in which governments have to provide assistance. MR.

URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, the Minister indicated they are moving on alternate sources of production right within the province of Manitoba. What courses of action does he propose to take, for example, let's use his example, like irrigation? Is there equipment on hand that the Minister has been able to purchase and set up either a committee to move throughout the province, or a group to move throughout the province, to do some irrigation, or is he utilizing the central purchasing mechanism that is at his disposal to buy equipment at cost and allow farmers to pick it up at next to cost?

Wha t are the mechanisms that he's using to, as he's talking about, encouraging irrigation, what kind of moves is he making in this respect? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, first of all, there is an assistance program on source development that will help pay for the development of a source under Agri-Water Program, that's No. 1. No. 2, we've had indication from the people who provide irrigation equipment that there is a reasonable supply of equipment available in the province.

I guess No. 3 is that individuals who may have to, or who want to irrigate, first of all, we have to make sure that there is water for them to use, either streams or gr oundwater, and the Department of Na tural Resources, who control the water rights or the identification of where underground aquifer are available, that we will do everything we can to identify them and find out who is interested and who isn't.

I know of specific areas that have been identified, people know there is water there to a certain extent, but how much, and there is a reluctance, particularly when it comes to spending a lot of money by an individual farmer to pay the cost to get into irrigation. Now as far as testing the water, the wells, the capacities, that can be done, in some cases if it is being done it's a matter of trying to quantify and give assurance to that person who may want to even invest, that there are supplies there. That's the kind of thing we can do at this time.

We haven't any other programs at this point, and I refer to them as subsid ized programs, to provide for people wanting to irrigate. However, I think that if this were to persist and we were to have to look at that kind of a policy that I'm prepared to do so. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, the Minister indicates that the Agri-Water Program will help farmers to develop irrigation sources for their crops, I think that's the general tenure of the announcement in terms of the supply of water, maybe he's been misquoted. I'd like to throw out another suggestion to him.

There probably are some streams which are spring fed, however, their flow may be of such a nature as not to provide a large volume of water unless the water was ponded or dammed in certain areas and could supply a fairly good size of pool for some areas; whether grants of this nature, while the source is there but really the source isn't because they cannot pound or pool the water; whether the assistance could be provided for the construction of dams, if necessary, and if approved by the various agencies to have a water source.

Because while the water may be flowing through there, it's availability is lessened by not being able to have a head on it that could provide the amount that may be necessary for irrigation or whatever is necessary. MR. DOWNEY: You know, the suggestion the member has made, as far as I'm concerned is a good suggestion. I think that some of the things that have to be done ar.e longer term programs.

We have in place the PFRA dugout filling and construction program but again there have to be some other areas that can pond water, identified on a longer term basis and it's unfortunate that we get in these situations where we do without having them in place and it's a continual process, there have to be priorities placed on them. I think it's a matter of again the environmental conditions that are upon us that bring our attention to the kinds of needs that have to be put in place for longer term protection of, not only of the agricultural industry but the total agriculture and rural and urban communities. MR.

URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I hope in raising these points that we have raised that the Minister has some idea and is prepared to, I think, be fairly bold insofar as feed supplies and making sure that he doesn 't become what I would consider overly conservative in obtaining or being able to move afield and secure supplies of feed, while on one hand being worried that rain next week may solve all the probl ems that he has.

I would hope that he's prepared to move ahead, secure as much as can be reasonably determined by his department and bank the feed because it appears, that while his staff are in the field, there have been no moves in that respect other than the small quantity of pellets in terms of a thousand tonnes. And we know that at 3975

Monday, 26 May, 1980. the present time it certainly doesn't look good and no matter, even if the weather changes, I don't think the Minister could be criticised for making sure that an adequa te supply of feed is on hand to protect the resource of cattle that we have within our province; so that he doesn't get caught up in any great hangup about not being prepared to commit the province to adequate feed supplies so that our cattle numbers are not forced to decline by the weather situation that we have today. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose on (a)(2)? MR. ADAM: Yes. The Member for St.

George has covered some of the area as far as the policy on transportation assistance is concerned. I just wanted to clarify whether or not - the way it was the last time where the farmer paid the first 25 miles. Does that still remain the same? MR. DOWNEY: The member says specific 25 miles, that the farmer paid the first 25 miles? MR. ADAM: No, I think the farmer paid the first 25 miles and I belie ve and anything above that . . . I wanted to know whether there was any major change in the ... MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I indicated earlier that it's a 50 mile distance, the feed has to come from more than 50 miles.

The first 50 miles is not paid for by the province. That if it's available within 50 miles there is no assistance, over that 50 miles there is. MR. ADAM: Full? MR. DOWNEY: Full, to a maximum of 20 per tonne. MR. ADAM: Over the 50 miles? MR. DOWNEY: That's right. MR. ADAM: I see. I understood before it was the first 25 miles was exempt from assistance. So this is a major change if it is 50 miles. MR. DOWNEY: I think, Mr.

Chairman, if it was different, and I will check that out, if it was different, if the feed supplies were available within the province and it was a matter of internal distribution within Manitoba, this is a lot longer distance it would have to be moved and there won't be many feed supplies within the 50 miles radius, so it's coming from a long distance and that's the reason, Mr. Chairman, if there is a change why it was changed. MR. ADAM: I wanted to make sure that there wasn't a change. If there's a change there from 25 to 50 that's a major change and additional cost to the producer but I just point that out.

I stand to be corrected, the department can check it out, the Minister will check it out and if it is felt it should be the same as it was before, well that's fine, if not . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: (b)(1)-p ass - the Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Just on that point, Mr. Chairman, if I understood the Minister correctly . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(b)(1) ... MR. URUSKI: Well, Mr. Chairman, I don't know how we got off 5(a)(2) yet. MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, I passed, we were on 5(a)(2) that's what we were discussing. MR. URUSKI: Well, Mr.

Chairman, do you want us to have our hand up steady, or can we go on and then when we're finished we just ... MR. CHAIRMAN: I thought the Member for St. George had finished before and the Member for Ste. Rose came after. I thought the Member for St. George had comp leted this qu estions on this particular portion of the estimates. The Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Thank you.

I just wanted some clarification from the Mi nis ter that under the assistance program that if the feed supplies, which as he indicates likely will be from a distance greater than 50 miles, mile one of assistance will be covered under this program if the feed distance is in excess of 50 miles? MR. DOWNEY: No, Mr. Chairman. MR. URUSKI: Actually then, Mr. Chairman, the assistance covers mile 51 return in other words, or mile 101 return per tonne mile. How is it? On the return basis or how is the formula worked out? MR. DOWNEY: The formula is consistent, Mr.

Chairman, with last programs -(l nterject ion) That's right, it's a loaded tonne mile that we're talking about first of all and it's the same policy as prior to this program, that it's no freight on the first 50 miles of a load coming towards the farm unit but if it was 750 miles it would be freight on 700 miles paid. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(a)(2)- pass; 5.(b) (1) - the Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Could the Minister indicate the thrust in this area? MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, the area we're talking about is the Regional Production Specialists, really the major areas of thrust of course are in farm management , to ensure that the department is keep ing fully abreast and supporting the farm community when it comes to using management decision tools that we again have identified, in my opening comments, the livestock industry and the crops specialist to work with the value-added crops, corn production, those are the main areas and all the livestock areas to suppor t the total livestock industry. I suppose basically, Mr.

Chairman, I don't believe there is any change in staff complement as far as the total specialists are concerned, we are sitting with the same amount as I indicated earlier of total staff. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, would the program of leaf cutter bee be under this program or would these 3976

Monday, 26 May, 1980. group of people in the production specialists be primarily dealing with livestock, poultry and sheep? MR. DOWNEY: Well, if the member could indicate if it's a specific program that the leaf-cutter bees, or organization are working with, otherwise it would fall within the entomology department of government. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I believe that's likely the case with the entomology department.

I raised this matter with the Minister by letter last year and there was - I have to thank him - some movement within the department to set up a program dealing with research and development in terms of the leaf cutter bee program de aling with alfalfa seed production within the province. In fact, that's an area that's been widely developed and expanded because of the lessening amount of disease-free bees in the province of Manitoba, and this research has proved very valuable for this group of people. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(b )(1) - pass; 5. (b)(2)- pass; 5.(cX 1) - the Member for St. George. MR.

URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: It's maybe very close to the hour anyway and I just remind the committee as it was agreed that we would go back to Resolution 8, 3.(a), (b) - it isn't marked - first thing at 8 o'clock. MR. URUSKI: Right, that's agreed. MR. CHAIRMAN: The committee rises for Private Members' Hour, and will return at 8 o'clock (tonight). SUPPLY - COMMUNITY SERVICES AND CORRECTIONS MR. CHAIRMAN, Abe Kovnats (Radisson): This committee will come to order.

I would direct the honourable members' attention to Page 21 of the Main Estima tes, Communi ty Services and Corrections, Resolution No. 32, Clause 6. Social Security Services (a)( 1) Salaries- pass - the Honourable Minister. HON. GE ORGE MINAKER (St. James): Mr. Chairman, if the commit tee would allow me to provide answers that were raised under the other sections. I had promised I would get them for the Honourable Member for Transcona as well as the Honourable Memb er for Seven Oaks. The one question related to item 3(

b) and the Member for Transcona questioned the reduction of recovery from Canada under the Regional Personal Services Program from 2,51 7,000 in 1979 to 2,355, 000 in 1980-81 under the Oanada Assistance Plan. Mr. Chairman, I would like to advise the committee that the 1979-80 estimates of 2,51 7,000 includes CAP recoveries on sharable costs, funde d through Commu nity Health Centres. These centres are included in the Department of Health Estimates for 1980-8 1 with recoveries from Canada estimated at 380,000.00.

The comparison of total recoveries for both programs is therefore, if we added in the Department of Health Estimates, would be 2,735,000 for 1980-81 versus 2,51 7,000 for 197 9-80. I can forward the written copy over to the honourable member for his information. With regard to the question raised by the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks. Correction, before we deal with the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks' question. Through you, Mr. Chairman, to the Honourable Mem ber for Transcona, with regard to the other matter relating to his constituent, I will get him that information back in a confidential manner.

With regard to the qu est ion raised by the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks, relating to a cost per patient day comparison for the Manitoba School, the St. Amant Centre and Pelican Lake Centre over the past three years from 1977-78, which will be final figures, and 1978-79 which again will be final figures and the 1979-80 will be the int erim rate until we have the final bud geted amounts. The Manitoba School daily cost per patient day for 1977-78 was 39.20; in 1978-79 it was 40.31; in 1979-80 the interim rate is 44.3 1. Following the same year pattern for St.

Amant Centre in 1977-78 it was 48.52; 50.33 and 55.25. In Pelican Lake Centre the 19 77 -78 is 38.73; 40.99 and 44.00. The percentage increases from 1977-78 to 1979-80 for Manitoba School is 13 percent; for St. Amant Centre is 13 .8 percent and for Pelican Lake Centre 13.6 percent. I believe, Mr. Chairman, just to check myself, the Manitoba School - did I indicate 13 percent increase? Okay. The only thing I would like to note that for the Manitoba School costs include an estimate for maintenance, utilities, heat, etc. which are provided by and funded by the Department of Government Services.

So we just have an estimate in there for that so it could, in actual fact, have been higher. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is that a copy for the government member? MR. MINAKER: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: To the honourable members. I would suggest that maybe we proceed on the item that is under debate at this point which is Item 6. Social Security Services (

a) Admin istration

(1) Salaries-pass - the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks. MR. SAUL A. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if at this time the Minister could indicate to the House the impact of the new programs, how it will dovetail with the existing admin istration. I'm thinking of the CRISP Program, the SAFER Program, the new level or the integration of social allowances based on the different revenues, different incomes now being taken into account, like family allowances and so on. Something which, in the past, could not be taken into account, wouldn't be taken into account.

And the Minister of Finance's indication that to meet that problem the threshold or need would therefore have to be raised so that no one would be worse off than they are today when that program goes into effect. I wonder if the Minister could give us some indication today on these programs and how it effects his department. 3977

Monday, 26 May, 1980. MR. MINAKER: Mr. Chairman, as the honourable member has indicated, there's a numb er of new programs that have been introduced with the Tax Credit Reform White Paper.

At the present time the admin istra tion of the Finance Department, the admin istration of our department, as well as the admin istra tion of the Mi nis ter of Economic Development responsible for housing � I believe that's the four involved - have been meeting to review the integration of all of these new tax credit reforms that are being proposed for those in need and it is the in tention, in the next week, my understanding is that we, as Ministers, will be getting together to look at the different steps of integrating these programs together.

The one thing that has been clearly indicated in the budget was that anyone on social allo wance would not have a benefit reduced when we look at recog nizing that any income to a person would be included as a part of the income. So that if we start to add in say, family allowance now or the child tax credit or any type of credit like that as part of the revenue, we will in turn then on the opposite side, if we set up their budget of how many dollars they should get, under our present regulated rates and then we look at the incomes that we now accept and recognize we get a dollar figure.

Say in the instance of an individual, single person, when we look at food and clothing and household and personal amounts that we allow, you are looking at about 178 under today's program, approxima tely. Then if the person also gets the shelter allowance for rent of 150, you'd be looking at say, approximately, for the individual 328 in social allowance income under the present system. Then we would budget their needs at 328 and we'd look at their resources under the present system. They might have zero resources as far as the income that they might receive and we would say that individual is entitled to 328.00.

Now under the new scheme we would still look at their basic needs of food, clothing, household personnel at 178; but then we would look at any family allowance. Say, in the case of the individual, obviously they wouldn't have a family allowance but say they were receiving shelter of 150 and then the cost tax credit of say 200, then you'd end up with an income of roughly 528.00. If you look at the budget needs of 528, we would increase that 328 over here up to 528 because they're receiving an outside source of 200, say.

So we would increase that allowance that we would give them by 528, so that's their needs now, and we would subtract the resources of the 200 they might be getting under the shelter or whatever other program that is introduced new and they would end up in the budget of receiving 328.00. So this is basically the way that we are approaching it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Seven Oaks. MR. MILLER: Mr.

Chairman, I think I follow the Minister and what he basically is saying though is that the threshhold for qualification is therefore being raised because they're including in the estimates of income for that individual not just the traditional income or revenues which is work from a job or one thing and another but they're including in that the Cost of Living Tax Credit, Property Tax Credit, SAFER benefits, CRISP benefits of their children, family allowances, etc., etc.

So therefore what you're doing in Manitoba is increasing the threshhold for admittance into the program because at the present time each case is decided on its own merits. The person comes along, they show nil income, or they show a very minor income and, based on the income the calculation, as is indicated here, is then done and the requirements for food, clothe s, personal needs and shelter, depending on the size of the family, are taken into account and, as the Mini ster indicates, 328 per month is the amount tha t could be paid out, depending on what revenues or what income that person has.

Now the person will have adjudged to have a revenue by virtue of other programs including federal programs, so in order not to cut anyone off or reduce the amount they're getting, they are going to be raising the threshhold at which a person will qualify. If that is the case, Mr.

Chairman - I ask this question because I don't know the answer - will it mean that someone who is not on welfare but is in fact earning the minimum wage or very close to minim um wage, by raisi ng the threshhold, and because they are working and getting something, their benefits under the various federal and provincial and municipal tax credit programs won't be as great, that they therefore might now start qua li fying for social allo wance benefits? I'm wondering if the Minister has looked at that or his department has looked at it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, just a brief comment. I sometimes find it confusing to follow the debate because of all these abbr eviations of SAFER and CRISP and so on and so on. I think it would help sometime if they were spelled out and I would refer to this as acronymious debate. MR. MINAKER: CRISP is Child Related Income Suppor t Program. I don't know whether the honourable member was serious when he was raising this question or not. The other one I believe is Shelter Allowance for Elderly Renters, SAFER.

Now in answer to the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks' question, there is a possibil ity that people might qualify for social allowance. It's a complex question that the admin istration group that we described earlier, are dealing with at the present time, and will become an integral part of moulding in of this whole program. The discussion is still being held with regard to what depa rtments will be responsible for the implementation of this program and recommendations will be forthcoming in the immed iate near future on this.

Whether some of these programs will end up under the financial departments, this is the im plem entation of the programs, or whether they will end up under our department, there is that possibility, but some people who may be receiving SAFER and CRISP, could go off the welfare roll as well. The fact that we will now offer the SAFER program to low income families with children, that they may in fact go off the welfare program. 3978

Monday, 26 May, 1980. MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, since the purpose of the tax credit reform was to rat iona lize these programs and to try to get away from all of the different programs, the plethora of programs that existed, the maze of documentation that has to be filled out, the applications, etc., etc., and what the Minister tells me, it seems to me there's going to be even more.

Trying to pull all of these together, there are different programs, different applications have to be made, different forms have to be filled out and it seems to me what you're head ing for is very admin istratively difficult programs to bring into being and to oversee. I know that at the present time the social allowance program is quite difficult in itself, but at least it's limited in what it takes into account and it's easier to, therefore, ride herd on it. Even with that there are problems.

Now with the introduction of new programs which will be taking into account and yet ignored in the final payout in as sense, so that the people shouldn't get less, then it seems to me what we're heading for is almost an admin istrative jungle here, of different groups and individuals having to apply for different things hoping to qual ify. Certain revenues have to be taken into account. How that's going to be done? Is it going to be done on last year's revenue? Is it going to be done on anticipa ted revenue within the current year?

Because the cost of living tax credit is something you earn when you qualify when you file your income tax, but it's based on the tax of the previous year, when you file for the tax of the previous year. Same as property tax credit, not the basic minimum, but the maximum. Is that going to be done, as I say, retrospectively, in anticipation?

Frankly, I would say to the Minister, looking at moneys provided for salaries under Administration, I see there's a cut, and frankly with what I've been hearing and what I see in the White Paper you're going to need more than you've got here unless it's done in another department or in other departments, that may be.

But certainly as far as this branch is concerned it seems to me that what we're adding is, we're adding to the maze that people have to go through, the hoops they have to jump, the various and sundry forms that have to be filled out and, if the Mini ster is correct, maybe even by different departments; that a certain program be operated through MHR C; anothe r depa rtment would be operated through the Finance Department; another one through his department.

And I tell you instead of rationalizing it, I think what has happened here is a new maze of programs have been developed which are going to make it much more difficult for people to take full advantage of it, and because we know that people at the lower income levels are not the most sophisticated, that there may be many people who just won't get around to knowing where to go and how to get the information; and even though there will be an Information Services, that doesn't resolve anything, they still have to go through the procedures of filling out the proper and adequate forms and then having them needs-tested against whatever criteria have been established.

MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I can agree with the honourable member in regard to the fact that there Will be more admin istration required in this program than with the general tax credit type of program.

But I know the honourable member is aware of and was part of the debate that we just ended on Friday, was the fact that we felt as a government that we wanted to target in on those people who we thought needed the money and assistance in these various programs and recognizing that there was going to be more admin istration required for this type of a program, but felt that in the long run that it would be best for the people of Manitoba that we gear in to those that are in need and provide this money to them rather than the shotgun approach that had been accepted for the past number of years.

I can advise the honourable member that the present estimates before us do not reflect any additional admin istration that might be required - and I underline might be required - for additional admin istration because at the present time many of the questions that the honourable member has raised are premature. I am not able to answer them in detail with regard to certain implementations of the programs and that is why we have certain programs starting up prior to others.

As the honourable member recognizes, the first program that is starting up is the Day Care and the Noon and After School Program in September of this year, because we are basically organized and set up to carry through this program,

whereas the other ones are to be implemented on January 1, 1981. During this timeframe, between now and January 1, 1981, the many questions that the honourable member raises, we will have resolved and hopefully all of them will be resolved.

I agree with him that if it ·comes under our department, we will be after more help to admin istrate this, whether we second them from the Fina nce Department or from the Economic Development Department, who are now presently looking after SAFER; and these general rec ommenda tions will be coming before those Ministers who are now presently handling some of these programs and will, in final, be recommended to the Cabinet. We've got a lot of work ahead of us over the next few months and some of our staff have a lot of work ahead of us and we recognize that.

The one thing we have to concern ourself with is that we don't want to jeopardize in any way the federal cost-sharing arrangements we presently have, we want to maximize them to the fullest. So some of the questions the honourable member raised earlier, these will have effects in making sure they're implemented correctly and how they're implemented and who qualifies, and so forth. I think, primarily, those were some of the questions that had been raised by the honourable member. MR. DEPUTY CH AIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Seven Oaks. MR. MILLER: Mr.

Chairman, after listening to the Min ister I have to then assume that the advertisement which ran - I think it was on Friday - advising people of the new programs and asking them to phone in or write in for information booklets, but in fact those booklets - they're not ready yet - so the advertisement really wasn't information for a program because it was just an announcement that there will be a program because the Min ister 3979

Monday, 26 May, 1980. indicated that it's not till Jan uary 1st that this particular one comes into being. Mr. Chairman, again I have to say that this government has prided itself on being good mana gers and being critical of the layers of admin istration that tend to redirect money from the field to the bureaucracy, and yet what I hear today is an admission - and I think I commend the Minister for admitting it, that in fact what we're going to witness is more admini stration, more checking and cross-checking, and whether it's done through one department or three depa

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-4-65a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 4th hansardpdf 65a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	3e64784e2c4bb4bb34602d94346721c8fbfd6e71

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