Manitoba Hansard — 3 March 1977 (Sitting 11B, 30th Legislature, 4th Session)

30-4-11b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

TIME: 8:00 p.m. THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY of MANITOBA Thursday, March 3, 1977 ESTIMATES - DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION MR. CHAIRMAN: Department of Education - Resolution No. 48, 1 (c), the Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BAN MAN: Mr. Chairman, further to the question I asked this afternoon, which had to do with the hearings that have been heard by the board with regard to the transferring of land from one school division to another, I wonder if the Minister could tell us if there is a backlog of applications that the board faces at this time? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. TURNBULL: Mr.

Chairman, that question I'll have to find an answer for, to give to the House tomorrow, along with other questions pertaining to the operations of the Board of Reference that were asked this afternoon. While I'm up I did want to respond to some of the remarks that were made by the Member for Brandon West earlier today, at least some of the inferences that arose as the result of his reading a letter, written I gather by a Department of Education person to a citizen.

At that time I mentioned to him and the House that I would consider making available to members of the department a book called : "The Complete Plain Words" by Sir Ernest Gower and, with some indulgence from the Member for Brandon West, I would like to read some selections from this book. lt is a book really designed for practical men of affairs, it's not a grammarian's bible as such and I would like first to quote something repeated in this book from Jonathon Swift, which says: "My Lord, I do here in the name of all the learned and polite persons of the Nation, complain to your Lordship as First Minister, that our language is extremely imperfect, that its daily improvements are by no means in proportion to its daily corruptions, that the pretenders to polish and refine it have chiefly multiplied abuses and absurdities and that in many instances it offends against every part of grammar." And then Sir Ernest Gower goes on to say: "I have long been waiting for somebody to dispel my growing bewilderment at the modern expression of affirmative and negative, or should I say disaffirmative, in English.

I had always imagined that the opposite of harmony was discord, not disharmony, of incentive, deterrent and so on, but at the present rate of distortion of our language, it looks as though we shall soon be talking about black and disblack, good and disgood." He goes on, if I may, to say: "And here we come in this chapter, the Choice of Words, to the most important part of our subject. Correctness is not enough.

The words used may all be words approved by the dictionary and used in their right senses, the grammar may be faultless and the idiom above reproach, yet what is written may still fail to convey a ready and precise meaning to the reader. That it does so fail is the charge brought against much of what is written nowadays, including much of what is written by officials. In the first

chapter I quoted a saying of Matthew Arnold that the secret of style was to have something to say and to say it as clearly as you can. The basic fault of present day writing is a tendency to say what one has to say in as complicated a way as possible, instead of being simple, terse and direct." -( Interjection)- That's correct. "lt is stilted, long-winded and circumlocutory. Instead of choosing the simple word, it prefers the unusual instead of the plain phrase, the cliche." Gower goes on to say, "Why do so many writers prefer a cliche to simplicity?

Officials are far from being the only offenders, it seems to be a morbid condition contracted in early manhood, children show no signs of it. Here, for example, is the response of a child of ten to an invitation to write an essay on a bird and a beast." And before I read this, Mr.

Chairman, I do want to indicate to you that this book, the copy which I have, was printed in 1954 and I bought it approximately then,just in case members think that the passage I am now coming to, which will have great relevance to the Member for Lakeside and other rural members, was not in fact written by a child in our school system, nor was it written in the present decade but some decades before. Here is a child of ten, asked to write an essay on a bird and a beast: "The bird that I am going to write about is the owl. The owl cannot see at all by day and at night is as blind as a bat.

I do not know much about the owl, so I will go on to the beast which I am going to choose. lt is the cow. The cow is a mammal. lt has six sides: right, left and upper and below. At the back it has a tail on which hangs a brush. With this it sends the flies away, so that they do not fall into the milk. The head is for the purpose of growing horns, and so that the mouth can be somewhere. The horns are to butt with and the mouth is to moo with." I hope the Member for Lakeside got that. "Under the cow hangs the milk. lt is arranged for milking. When people milk the milk comes and there is never an end to the supply.

How the cow does it, 1 have not yet realized, but it makes more and more. The cow has a fine sense of smell. One can smell it far away -( Interjection)- This is the reason for the fresh air in the country," - not your remarks but what the child said here. man "The cow is called an ox. lt is not a mammal. The cow does not eat much but when it eats, it eats twice so that it gets enough. When it is hungry it 321

Thursday,March 3, 1977 moos, and when it says nothing it is because its inside is all full up with grass. " Gower goes on to say, "The writer had something to say and said it as clearly as he could, and so has unconsciously achieved style. But why do we write, when we are ten, 'so that the mouth can be somewhere' and perhaps when we are thirty, 'in order to insure that the mouth may be appropriately positioned environmentally. "' Mr. Chairman, I read this because I think it is relevant to the letter that the Member for Brandon West read earlier today.

I conclude with this quotation that comes not from Gower but from his research on the Egyptian civil service. I think it is an admonition that should apply to all civil servants everywhere. Be courteous and tactful as well as honest and diligent. All your doings are publicly known and must therefore be beyond complaint or criticism. Be absolutely impartial. Always give a reason for refusing a plea. Complainants like a kindly hearing even more than a successful plea. Preserve dignity but avoid inspiring fear. Be an artist in words that you may be strong, for the tongue is a sword. Mr.

Chairman, I believe that this book is a book that should be distributed to the civil servants, particularly those who write the kinds of letters that the Member for Brandon West read out. I believe that this book plus the one I have here, The King's English by Fowler, which I would love to read from for the benefit of some members opposite who have never obviously opened these books- however, I want to indicate that many of the civil servants in the Department of Education do not write the kinds of communications that the Member for Brandon West read out to us.

Indeed, many of the communications that come to my desk for signature and that I see in files are clearly written, are concise, and do come directly to the point, and those civil servants are to be commended. l think they are working hard; I think they are doing a good job for the department and I think they are doing a good job for the people in Manitoba. However, there are some exceptions and for the exceptions, Sir, I think that this book by Sir Ernest Gower would make good reading. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I thank the Minister for that lesson.

I wonder if there is some message involved in the exercise that the Minister has just undertaken. lt seemed to me, Mr. Chairman, that he was sharpening his former skills as a school teacher and perhaps there is some portent in that exercise, that he is preparing himself for what may be in the future for him. But I do appreciate the message that has been conveyed by the former school teacher, the Honourable Member for Osborne. A MEMBER: Just for once call him the Minister of Education eh? MR. McGILL: Well, of course, he is the Minister of Education, Mr. Chairman. A MEMBER: lt makes him feel better. MR.

McGILL: I would feel that the main thrust of the letter which I presented to the Minister was not to be critical of the English of the Administrative Officer, that was an aside to the main point. lt was not intended that we be unduly critical of the method in which the letter was written, the kind of language that we use because I understand, of course, that the Minister of Education is one who supports the idea that language skills are most important in our educational system.

We did, however, introduce the letter to indicate that there was confusion among the administrative members of his department because an administrative officer had written the letter to a citizen of the province who was asking for information and had indicated that she would have to look to a school inspector in order to obtain the certificate that she needed. The point was that school inspectors had not existed in the department for over ten months. Mr.

Chairman, while I do appreciate the message presented to us by the Minister, really he misses the point and he has not yet really explained why members of his department don't know what is happening to the organization of the department. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, as I indicated in the quotations that I read, I do believe that language is important; it should be used well and I try to use it as well as I can, including when I go down to 1181 Fletcher to talk to the staff there.

Many of the points that the member has raised were points that 1 outlined for the staff while I was there. I spoke to approximately 70 to 80 staff of the Department of Education. I made it as clear as I possibly could what the direction of the department should be; I made it as clear as I possibly could what it was that I expected of them; I made it as clear as I possibly could how I would operate and much of what the member has cited in yesterday's speech was contained in my speech of some months ago to the staff.

Anyway, Sir, I indicate to you that the appropriation on general administration is really one that we have passed and Brand on West both the Member for and myself were out of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 48 (c). The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Getting back to the transfer of land from one school division to another. As the Minister knows there has been considerable activity in my particular riding and 1 think the people are looking to the Department of Education for some guidance in this particular matter.

I would refer the Minister to the problem being faced right now and that is that the reciprocating agreement that the school divisions have had in the past, in other words, that if an equal 322

Thursday,March 3, 1977 number of students from one school division attended the other school division because of geographical boundaries, it was sort of a reciprocating agreement and there were no problems attached. We've got the reverse happening right now where one school division is receiving a substantial number of students from another school division and this is causing land transfers. I understand that both school divisions have written these parents in question right now and have informed the parents that they will be forced to pay the tuition if their children continue to attend the other schools.

Now, I would suggest to the Minister that if this is indeed the course of action that will be taken, that the Minister's board will have a lot more applications for transfer of land than he has had right now and he could quite easily be swamped with applications.

Now the problem as far as the transfers and the reason I believe that they haven't been opposed to too stringently in the past, is that when low assessed land is involved the objection from either school division isn't that great but when we are running into high assessed land I think this is when the problems are going to start and the people in the area are looking for some guidance from the Minister and his department with regards to this specific problem.

I would wonder if the Minister is formulating any policy with this regard or if they are going to leave the Act the way it is and just try and ride out the storm as far as this particular problem is concerned. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution No. 48(

c) The Honourable Member for St. James. MR. GEORGE MINAKER: I'd like to ask the Honourable Minister if the Statutory Boards and Commissions, do they have any responsibility with regards to the safety of children in schools or to and from schools? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. TURNBULL: Thank you Mr. Chairman. There is to my knowledge no board of the department that is directly involved with the safety of children going to and from school.

Now, there is in another appropriation, Sir, when we get to it, under Transportation, some provisions for safety education which the department undertakes and when we get there I can describe that program to the member. But these boards and this appropriation, I do not think there is anything done by any of these boards that relates directly to safety of children going to and from school- that is a divisional responsibility.

And I should remind honourable members about the Manitoba Association of School Trustees wanting, in fact, to have not so much the Minister give them direction, but rather to give to the divisions greater authority and responsibility. That, of course, is what the department is trying to do. But as I do say, when we get to the provisions on Transportation, I can discuss school bus safety, at least. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. James. MR.

MINAKER: The reason I raise the question to the Honourable Minister is that it is my understanding that the principals of schools are responsible for the safety of children to and from school to their home, and I know yesterday the City of Winnipeg decided not to allow in its budget the hiring of its crossing guards which have become a recognized factor in the community of St. James which I represent. And why I put the question forward to the Honourable Minister Mr.

Chairman, is the fact that in most cases where these crossing guards are hired, they are retired commissionaires that come out every morning and every noon hour and every evening when school is closed to help children across very busy intersections. In the majority of cases, these intersections are crossings on main thoroughfares that this government presently shares fifty-fifty with in the maintenance of and are known as arterial streets where you have traffic going from one community to another or actually right through the town, interprovincial traffic.

I think it is a very important matter because it seems all of a sudden that the city has shed its responsibility for this particular safety feature and because it deals with roadways which this government has recognized as being a type of roadway where they will look after 50 percent of the maintenance of this roadway, and because of this high traffic concentration, it's deemed necessary that there should be some kind of adult safety for the school children that have to cross this particular avenue.

This is why I raise to the Honourable Minister at this time if this is the Board or Commission that can give consideration to this because it's very ironical that the cost to provide this service is identical to the cost that the Minister has this year for the Statutory Boards and Commissions, $24,0 00. And I would think probably that this isn't just a common feature to Winnipeg, but I would think that the more populated cities like Brandon and maybe Portage la Prairie have similar circumstances where the adult guard would be, in my opinion, useful. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please.

I wonder if we could just have a little bit of toning down of the conversations that are going on. lt's very hard to hear what the honourable member is saying. The Honourable Member for St. James. MR. MINAKER: So, Mr. Chairman, this is why I raised it to the Honourable Minister at this time. In my opinion it's a very important matter that all of a sudden there's nobody there to pick up this responsibility, and I 'm wondering if the Minister can look into this if this is the proper

section because I would imagine for the whole province you might be talking, maybe in the order of $50,000, and to me 323

Thursday,March 3, 1977 that's well worth the safety for children, particularly when it involves, in many cases, provincial roadways or as I said, those major thoroughfares in the cities where the province has already accepted 50 percent of the responsibility of maintenance of these roadways because of their interprovincial or intercity type of operation. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 48(c) -p ass; Resolution 48(

d) External Administration Support Unit (1}. Salaries $133,800. The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, this item was not in the Estimates, in this form at least, during the previous year's submissions. I wonder if the Minister could give us some detail on what is involved in this Item 1(d), External Administrative Support Unit. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. TURNBULL: I can assure the Member for Bran don West that there was much less detail this year than last year.

There are now six SMY's involved here; of these, four of the employees are performing some of the functions previously supplied by the Field Services Branch, one employee is seconded to the Seine River and Hanover School Divisions and the Secretary is employed in the Brandon Office. The Support Unit we are talking about here provides consultation and communications with all divisions and districts in the eastern, western, northern and unicity areas of the province and that is the function briefly of the Unit as described. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to ask the Minister what is the particular function of the member who is attached to the Seine River and Hanover School Districts? MR. TURNBULL: This particular individual, seconded to these two divisions, provides consultative support to the two divisions, and this involves a range of activities, I believe, from administrative to program. MR. McGILL: Well, Mr. Chairman, are these consultative support services somewhat unique in that you're supplying an individual to these two particular divisions but not to many other divisions in the province?

Is there some unique situation here that requires a special consultation from the Department? MR. TURNBULL: Well, Mr. Chairman, the Department as I indicated earlier, not only in some of my own remarks but in exchange with the Member for Fort Rouge, is going through a period of transition where it is providing resource personnel, who perform various functions to the Divisions, to work in the Divisions and this particular individual is provided to these two Divisions. lt is a pilot project and he is, I think it's a "he", is provided there and works under their direction. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 48(d)(1).

The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, in the 1976 Session of the Legislature, we voted on May 5th, the sum of $724,800 for the operation of the Field Services Branch. The question then would be, since there was no Field Services Branch after March 31st of that year, how was the approved sum expended? Could the Minister provide the Committee with some detailed explanation how $724,800 which was voted for the Branch and which was expended presumably, how that amount was used? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. TURNBULL: Mr.

Chairman, that is really an extremely detailed question. The general answer to it, though, is that the moneys that were appropriated went with the personnel who were moved into other areas of the government and other branches of the Department. Now I can go through a long list here of where these people have gone, which Departments, which branches of the government, and we could dig up, I suppose, the salary allocations that went with them for the period of time that they had been working in these other areas, but that in general is the answer. Do you want some more detail of where these people have gone?

Of that group and the money voted for them, Mr. Floyde, who's on my right here, is now Director of Administration, Miss Simmel is Clerk in the Payroll Department. In the Administrative External Administrative Support Unit which is the remaining unit we're talking about, we have Mr. McGinn, who's in Thompson, who's doing a good job, I met with him when I was there last Thursday, Mr. McCurdy, Mr. Neufeld, Mr. Decosse, Miss Sparrow, and Mr. Duhamel.

Of those staff that came from the branch as approved last year that went to another branch of the department, we have the following staff who went to Program Development and Support Services: Salinski - I have not, by the way, Mr. Chairman, met personally all of these people, though I've met a good number of them, both in the field, in Thompson and in Brandon and in my office in attempts simply to meet them and to communicate to them what it was that I them, expected of and to hear from them firsthand what it was that they thought the Department should be doing.

The Member for Brandon West has already indicated that kind of direct communication is something I shouldn't be engaged in but, Sir, 1 will continue to engage in it. I think it's important for a Minister of Education to meet with the staff, and I think that most of the staff that I've met with anyway, have told me directly that they appreciate it.

But of those people who moved from this old unit to another branch of the Department, in particular Program Development and Support Services, we have, moving into this s Support Services, Salinski, Brummitt, Sanderson, Stewart, Mclntosh, Taylor, Day, Yalmerson, Toms, 324

Thursday,March 3, 1977 Partridge, Uzwyshyn, lsaac and Telfer. Mr. Chairman, there are some other individuals who, in terms of dollar allocations used up some of the allocation that was provided in the Estimates approval, mentioned by the Member for Brandon West, before they retire or move to other positions right out of the Department. For example, Mr. Dunfield retired January 31st, Mr. Gibson retired September 1, 1976, Bollman's position was transferred to Corrections on April 1 st, Miller's position was transferred to Corrections April 1st, and there was an Administrative Secretary's position of six months which was no longer required. So there has been an extensive reorganization in this

section and I think that accounts for all of the individuals involved. The member will appreciate of course that when they move, their salaries must move with them and so must all the support expenses, etc. that are attached to a Staff Person Year. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, the Minister mentioned the Director of the Field Services Branch as having retired on January 31st of this year. My question to the Minister is, how was the Director of the Field Services Branch employed after that branch ceased to exist.

Now the period covered by the question I'm Minister putting to the is from April 1st, '76, to January 3131st, 1977. What were his duties during that period? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, there is attached to the department, the Public Schools Finance Board under which there are some committees-o ne of them is a Building Projects Committee. This individual was, during the period in question, questioned by the Member for Brandon West, employed as a consultant to that Building Projects Committee. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister how many meetings of the Buildings Project Committee were held during that period? MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Speaker, both the Schools Finance Board itself, which of course approves eventual school construction, and this Buildings Projects Committee, I understand, meet at least once a week. Their work is, as far as I know, quite detailed - well obviously it is detailed, it's the approval of school construction, school renovations, etc., which does involve the estimates of school population over time -a very difficult thing to do.

And it involves, of course, approving whatever the architects for the school division want to put into the school. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, can the Minister confirm to the committee that the Building Projects Committee did meet approximately once a week during that ten-month period? Could he name the Chairman of that committee? And how many building projects did they approve during that time? MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, I would be quite happy to get the information, but I think that that's the kind of question that would really have to take the staff a few hours to collate. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister mentioned two Brandon Regional Field Officers that were assigned to, I believe, the Ministry of Corrective and Rehabilitative Services. -(In terjection)- I believe one was a Mr. Miller; the other one you mentioned and I can't recall the name. - (Inte rjection)- Mr. Bowman. I believe those were the two gentlemen, and they were assigned to the Corrective and Rehabilitative Services Department. Mr. Chairman, cou Id I ask the Minister, when did these two gentlemen become active in the department?

I'm not asking for the date on which they were assigned to that new department of government, I'm asking when they actually took up duties in the Department of Corrections. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 48(d)(l). The Honourable Minister for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I assume the silence of the Minister indicates that he is going to get that information for me. MR. TURN BULL: Mr. Chairman, it does seem kind of silly to keep jumping up and down when I'm looking right across the aisle at the Meer for Brand on West. I did nod in the affirmative.

I will get that information if it is humanly possible to get it, and provide it for the committee tomorrow in the afternoon, presumably, or in the morning. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, in the same area, now we know that there have been some eliminations of a service that connected his department with what was actually going on in the field, with the divisions and with the schools. I would ask him now if he can tell the committee what kind of leadership, precisely, what kind of leadership, Mr. Chairman, is being given by the Department of Education to the school divisions and the schools in this department.

Who, precisely, is providing the leadership? Now we know that there were people who connected directly with these divisions and with tbese schools - how is this leadership function now being communicated by the department, by the Minister, to the divisions and the schools? MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, that question is most intriguing -(In terjection)- because it does not really determine or define what kind of leadership the Member for Brandon West is talking about.

I have been in the schools as a teacher in northern Manitoba and in Fort Garry and never did I ever see anyone from the inspectorial branch of the Department of Education, if that's what he is talking about, come into the school to give leadership. What they did was come in to check up on the boys, to see what they were doing, but there was no leadership involved that I can ever recall. So I 325

Thursday,March 3, 1977 would like him to define what it is he is talking about when he says "leadership". it's pretty obvious that the department, as we go through my Estimates you'll find this out, that the department is evermore involved in the school division in giving support to teachers in providing certain ranges of very specialized skills, in consultations with teachers and administrative staff, in working in some cases with children with special needs.

Those areas of responsibility, those functions have indeed expanded and I said earlier, have become ones that have been recognized by people in the field, that is, by teachers employed by school divisions. I don't think that is what he's alluding to. 1 don't know what it is he's alluding to when he talks about inspectorial leadership in the school and if he could define it for me, I would certainly make every effort to give him a clear and concise answer. MR. McGILL: Well, Mr. Chairman, I think we are not going to play on words and try and define the role of the department in the schools and in the divisions.

This role and this connection was supplied by a branch of his department formerly. What new arm of his department has he developed in order to perform this function, to encourage and to give help and assistance to teachers in the classroom, to bring to them some kind of explanation from his department that would enable them to more adequately carry out their classroom duties where they are having difficulties? How does the Minister now fulfil! this general function? The department must surely have some role to play surely have some function to perform other than being a receptacle for correspondence.

If decentralization has been carried to the extreme that there is now no longer any kind of guidance that the department can offer, then what really is the function that remains for this Department of Education to supply? MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, I just answered the question a minute ago and I don't want to be disparaging or provocative, but I do want to use good old Anglo-Saxon words that are short -I want to say to the Member for Brandon West that his remarks there were kind of screwy. -(l nterjection) You are talking about a leadership role that never did exist from the inspectorial branch.

I know, I was in the schools. They did not lead the teachers; what they did was come in and when they walked into your class, there was an inspector. He was usually an okay person -he gave you a couple of tips maybe. Usually he went away without telling you anything. Now, if that's what the Member for Bran don West is saying is a leadership role that used to be played by the Department of Education, he is not correct -I know, from first-hand experience not as a Minister of Education, a politician, but from being in the schools 15 years ago, and 7 years ago. I did answer the question.

I answered twice, as a matter of fact, on the two previous occasions I was on my feet to respond to the Member for Brandon West. I said first of all that the field services branch that we were talking about, the staff of which was reallocated , some of that staff went to program development support services and I named a number of people who were in that area. Program Development and Support Services is on the next page, Vote 4. lt is called Program Development and Support Services.

He can see it there and when we get to that appropriation, I will be most pleased to tell him what support, what consultation, what leadership the Department of Education still provides to people in the field in this kind of function. But if he is relating it back to the inspectorial function, I don't know what he was talking about.

He may have picked up some things from the pipeline that he has into the department that goes back, back, back, back, back, back fifty years when people going into the schools as teachers were not university graduates, may not even have been high school graduates, were in fact pretty raw recruits in the teaching profession and they did need some assistance and the inspectors did provide it.

But I remind the honourable member that the inspectorial function of the Department of Education was beginning to be phased out in the mid-1 960's when they went from individual inspectors moving into individual classrooms to inspect individual teachers teaching particular subjects, when they moved from that to what they called team inspection which occurred between, oh, 1965 and 1968. That's when the inspectorial function began to phase out completely. This is not a new development. it's been coming for years.

The leadership function that he's talking about was never in my memory, going back some fifteen years, assumed by inspectors in a general way. But leadership is provided by the department through a variety of functions which are described in the Estimates, the major one being in Vote 4o n page 21, the whole of page 21. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I think that message is fairly clear. The department provides no leadership. The idea is complete decentralization, would negate any need for any kind of direction and support from the Department of Education.

I know the Minister in the past has expressed his support in his statements from time to time to the ideal of providing an equality of educational opportunity in the province. My question to him now would be: How does he plan to reconcile the ideal and the objective of providing equality of educational opportunity in the province with his decentralization plan? How, Mr. Chairman, can the Minister be sure that children are receiving a high quality of education everywhere in the province if he has no apparent means of evaluation, of comparing the product of these schools? MR. TURNBULL: Mr.

Chairman, you I guess are not familiar enough with the details of the 326

Thursday,March 3, 1977 Estimates to know when the Member for Brandon West is in order and when he is not. If you want a wide-ranging debate of what the department is doing by way of leadership, I am quite willing to provide it now. However, I want to indicate to you that the leadership functions that the Member for Brandon West is looking for are there, they are in the Estimates, including a provision for evaluation. I suggest that we wait until we get to that

section of the Estimates before we debate it. Now, Sir, it is entirely up to you; I am in your hands. If you want that free-ranging debate now, we can have it. lf you want to proceed through the Estimates in an orderly fashion as has been the case in the eight sessions that I have been here, then I am quite willing to do that. But I want to reiterate the department is providing leaderhsip are more departmental people involved in the schools now giving support to teachers and being involved in delivering programs to children than I believe has ever been the case in the past.

And if the Member for Brandon West wants to live in the past, that is his responsibility. ! am concerned with the present and the future. I would like to get through these Estimates so that indeed I can get out into the field again and meet some of those people who are delivering educational programs to people. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, that is good news - the Minister is going out to give some leadership in the field, so the cause is not lost entirely and we appreciate that. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution (d)1. Passed? The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, I can't quite understand why there is an appropriation shown for last year because the title of this 1 (

d) is somewhat new, but perhaps the Minister can indicate why the salary appropriation for last year was $230,000 and is down to $133,000 now. I don't quite understand how, in a new heading such as this, there can be a decrease in the amount of appropriation for salaries. MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, the Member for Brandon West surely must be attempting either to be provocative or just pull my leg. I have given him the detail, extraordinary detail. I have indicated to him that this

section has been reduced in number, that some people have retired, and that others have been reallocated to other parts of the department or indeed to some other departments. That has meant a curtailment of the salaries appropriation for this section. Unless he has something more specific that he would like to ask, that is the answer to his question. l have provided that answer three times. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 48 (d)(1) - pass; Resolution 48 (d}

(2) Other Expenditures Resolution 48 (e), Teacher Certification, Records, General Educational Development and Education Data Services. Salaries, (1). The Honourable Member for Brand on West. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, Item 1 (e). Teacher Certification, Records, General Educational Development and Educational Data Services. I wonder if the Minister would enlighten the House concerning the nature of the work of this branch.

The breadth of the responsibilities of this branch has been sharply reduced, particularly since the universities assumed many of the branch's former responsibilities, that is, teacher training and the selection of teacher candidates for summer school courses. I wonder if the Minister would indicate how many people took advantage ofthe opportunity to get high school standing by way of this equivalency test that was offered by the department. How many attempted these equivalency tests and how many succeeded in getting standings in the past three years, that is, for 1974, 1975 and 1976? MR. TURN BULL: Mr.

Chairman, I didn't quite follow the Member for Bran don West when he first spoke on this item for very good reason, he was talking about this branch being the branch responsible for teacher training which, in my memory, it has never been responsible for. However he did get himself straightened out and started talking about the GED , General Education Development testing. I have some data in my House book here but the precise numbers of students, people who took these tests, are not here. We certainly will get that information for you for tomorrow. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 48 (e}(1) - pass?

The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. D. JAMES WALDING: Mr. Chairman, I have a question or two for the Minister on Teacher Certification. I would like to quote to the Minister from a June, 1972 bulletin, although I know the Minister was not the Minister responsible at the time. lt says, "The Minister of Education has accepted the following recommendation from the Board of Teacher Education and Certification 'That the interim certificates on non-citizen teachers be renewable on application at two-year intervals to a maximum of three intervals.

This policy will apply to all non-Canadian citizen teachers commencing September 1st, 1972."' I would ask the Minister if he is familiar with this policy? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. TURN BULL: Mr. Speaker, the policy I am familiar with is the policy that says that after a nu er of years of teaching, a non-Canadian should be a Canadian - and the policy I am familiar with is that those people who retain permanent jobs over time in our schools should be Canadians.

That is the policy. lt's my understanding that a teacher coming from another country has an interim authority to teach for two years, that that authority may be extended twice to give him or her a maximum of six years teaching in our schools. And I think that six years teaching in our schools as a non-Cana dian is 327

Thursday ,March 3, 1977 long enough for an individual to have to make up his or her mind to become a Canadian citizen so they can continue teaching in the schools. I believe that is the policy as it exists now. - (lnte rjection)- MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, I recognize that the department does not actually employ teachers. Would the Minister agree that the effect of this regulation in the department is to deprive a teacher of his livelihood after six years? MR. TURNBULL: Mr.

Speaker, although we do not employ the teachers, they cannot teach and get in the public schools and get the salary that is set out by the department unless they have certification. My point, and I think the policy is based upon it- it has been over these decades - is that a Canadian citizen should be teaching in a Canadian school. I understand that some 10 percent of the teachers in Manitoba today are non-Canadians. I think that is a sufficient number for diversity and infusion of ideas from other countries.

I think it is just plain common sense that those who wish to continue teaching in our schools, teaching our young people the values of our society and our civic institution, should be Canadians. I think that that is a modicum of commitment to the country. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, I refer to The Humans Rights Act which I understand was passed by this government shortly after its election in 1969. I also assume that the present Minister, who was a meer on the government side at that time supported the Act.

And I will quote from the Act if the Minister insists, but the Human Rights Commission has put out a little booklet with a small write-up on this which I believe sums up the issue quite clearly and it says, "In the matter of employment, the law provides for the right of equality of opportunity based on bona fide occupational qualifications in employment.

Employers are obliged not to deny a job, nor continue to employ, not to advance a person, not promote a person, because of that person's race, nationality, religion, colour, sex, age, marital status, ethnic or national origin, or political beliefs of the person." And I put it to the Minister, Mr. Chairman, does he not believe that here his department is in fact discriminating against persons on the grounds of nationality? MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Speaker, I can sympathize with the Member for St. Vital.

He is doing what I think a good government backbencher should do and creating an argument for one of his own Ministers to deal with. I have discussed this issue with the Member for St. Vital. lt was my understanding during my discussion with him that in fact The Human Rights Act was not being violated by the provisions of the Certification Branch with regard to certification of teachers who are teaching here. Now, I gave him an undertaking already to have the legalities checked because clearly the Department of Education Teacher Certification Branch should not be operating in violation of a statute of Manitoba.

That undertaking I have given to him - I will give it to him now again publicly. lf the policy of the Department of Education needs to be changed to conform with The Human Rights Act, it naturally- unless there is some unforeseen circumstances here- should be so changed. In the meantime, I believe that a Canadian should be teaching Canadian children. MR. WALDING: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do thank the Minister for his undertaking and I do agree with him on the last point that he made.

I will, however, tell him for his information that the legality of this action has been checked in the past and it was found, or an opinion was given at that time, that this particular regulation did not infringe upon the letter of The Human Rights Act because it says that there shall be no discrimination in actual hiring and it was held at the time that the department, by making this regulation, was not the agency that hired the teachers, that it was in fact the school boards. But that is the precise letter of the law, Mr.

Chairman, and I submit to you that that is not the spirit of the law- that the effect of what we are discussing here is quite clearly to deprive a person of his right to employment based not upon bona fide occupational qualifications but upon nationality. I would hope that the Minister will take a look at the principle involved here and the spirit of the regulation and knowing the Minister to be a very fair and reasonable person, Mr. Chairman, I hope that he will come to the right conclusion. -( lnterjecti on)- MR. TURN BULL: Mr. Chairman, I thank the Member for St.

Vital for his last remarks and I note the remarks of the Member for Lakeside because I know what it must feel like being in his party, to be attacked from the back. I must confess, though, that I am not familiar with it and I do hope it will enable me to develop some hindsight. As the Member for St. Vital has indicated, this matter has been checked and the Department of Education and the divisions are abiding by the letter of t he law. I think the letter of the law is sufficient.

I do not wish, and this is I suppose a very fundamental point- 1 do not wish to open the flood-gates to all those individuals in the world who may want to come to Manitoba to teach. I believe that teaching opportunities in our schools should be available to those who are Canadians and who are qualified to teach in our schools. I think that that is a reasonable approach; as I said, I believe some 10 percent of the teaching population, active teaching population in the province, is now non-Canadian.

I think that that is a sufficiently high figure and therefore, if the letter of the law is being abided by, I think that 328

Thursday,March 3, 1977 the regulations provided are satisfactory. The reverse would be, I think, to have more non-Canadians teaching in Manitoba than Canadians. I might point out that, for what it's worth, for the Member for St. Vital, that in the United States, no non-American is allowed to teach and while I would not want to carry that policy to extremes and indeed we have not here because, as I say, there are many non-Canadians now teaching in the schools.

I do not think that anyone coming here from wherever, with whatever qualifications that he or she can get accepted, should be in a position of teaching in our schools forever without becoming a Canadian citizen. The country affords people who are in our schools a good salary and good benefits such as pension benefits and it affords them, in this particular profession, the opportunity of considerable advancement. I think that they owe it to the country to become Canadian citizens if they want to teach in the school system and benefit from our society. MR. WALDING: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, can I ask the Honourable Minister then if he would like to see this same principle extended to, for example, private schools and the universities, that there should be the same discrimination there? And I would further ask the Minister if it is a condition of employment within the Department of Education that the civil servants be Canadian citizens. MR. TURN BULL: Mr. Chairman, this really is a fundamental issue and I think it should be debated. I think it has been a shame over the last 20 or 30 years that our universities have become so over populated with non-Canadians.

Many of our students come out knowing more about American history, more about the American political system than they do knowing about our own Canadian political system and society. Now I think that a university and a school system should be systems that allow diversity. I see nothing wrong with a number of people coming from other countries who do not hold Canadian citizenship coming into our schools and universities to teach, but not forever-and-a day without becoming Canadian citizens. lt is simply a fundamental issue. If the Member for St.

Vital does not think that Canadians should be teaching our children, should have job opportunities, then I suggest to him that he examine what I understand is the new policy of the University of Manitoba where in fact they have recently adopted, I believe, a policy that says in effect Canadians first for university jobs. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 48. The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: The Honourable Minister didn't answer the second question that I asked him as to whether it was a condition of employment in the Department of Education to be a Canadian citizen. MR. TURNBULL: Mr.

Chairman, I do not believe it is a condition of employment to work in the Department of Education to be a Canadian citizen but I think it would be a darn good idea. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 48 (e) 1- pass. Resolution (e)2, Other Expenditures- pass. We will leave the remainder of Resolution 48 until we complete the department. Resolution 49, Evaluation, Research and Policy Analysis. (a), Salaries. The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, this appears to be the area in which the Minister might enlighten us as to the way in which he, through his department, will be able to ensure that there is equality of educational opportunity in the province and the manner in which he will be able to evaluate the results. I believe this question was asked of him in an earlier

section and he preferred to delay until he came to the

Section 2 on Evaluation, Research and Policy Analysis. I wonder if the Minister would like to perhaps enlighten us. MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, the question, I believe, is one of whether or not there should be equality of education opportunity and whether this is the

section in which that is provided. Is that the question that the Member for Brandon West is asking? MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I'd remind the Minister that under an earlier

section there was some question as to how he was going to carry out the function of ensuring with the present departmental structure and the decentralization that he is encouraging in his department, how he was going to ensure that there would be equality of educational opportunity and how he was going to carry out the function of evaluating performance in the school system in Manitoba. MR. TURN BULL: Mr.

Chairman, the question of equality of educational opportunity and what the department is doing there I think can best be left to Vote No. 4 If we are talking about evaluation though, this certainly is the appropriation in which to deal with it. Evaluation is carried on by school divisions, as I know the Member for Brandon West understands. However, although there have been programs undertaken by school divisions and although the divisions are extraordinarily proud of those testing programs, I think that the department needs to establish an information base through its own testing program.

Therefore, I will be doing that, Mr. Chairman. I just want to run through very quickly the kinds of testing or evaluation that are now done in schools so the member will have a note of it. There is the Canadian Test of Basic Skills. We have conducted a survey of all school divisions and it was indicated to the department that most of these divisions were utilizing some form of standardized testing of their students, and on a continuing basis. Approximately 82 percent of these divisions were using the Canadian Test of Basic Skills.

I might say here that the results of the testing done with that particular instrument in the schools is to 329

Thursday,March 3, 1977 indicate that students are doing better than they were a few years ago. The results of the Canadian Test of Basic Skills reveals that. In the St. Vital division where I appeared for the Member for Aiel to open a new school some time ago, I think that is the case there. In other divisions, there are the Metropolitan Achievements Tests of Mathematics which have been used by many divisions. In this, mathematics skills of all grade 5 students in Greater Winnipeg have been tested. This test indicated that the Winnipeg norm is higher than the North American norm for students in that grade.

So again, here with the computational skills and the testing programs administered by divisions, we find that Manitoba students are in fact doing better. Better. Better than students in other areas. Mr. Chairman, evaluation is a many-faceted attempt by educators to determine how students are doing. In the last few years since 1968 when the Conservative administration began abolishing departmental examinations, the information base that the department has with regard to student performance has of course not existed. I think such a base is useful.

I think such a base of information could be collected over time and I hope to do this in consulation with the educators in the field. I hope to establish a testing program. lt will be small to begin with because these are expensive programs to administer, but to administer these tests in such a way that the superintendents and the teachers will be involved in the selection or in the formulation of the testing instrument.

I then expect that through that process, it will be possible to have the department administer these tests, assuming of course that the divisions will co-operate, to a sample of students across the province that is a statistically reliable sample so that in any particular grade or subject level over time we will have a sample of student achievement. And over time, say next year when I am standing here, I can give you the results of the testing that was done say next fall, as compared to this spring.

Now it may not be possible to draft, develop, administer and implement a testing scheme for this spring, but next fall I hope to have that done. The first purpose of this program, then, is to provide the Department of Education an information base on this statistically reliable sample over time. The other important purpose of a testing program, which I hope, as I say, to introduce in conjunction with the work and co-operation of educators, is to enable teachers to use these evaluation techniques or these testing instruments as teaching tools.

In other words, I believe that involving teachers in the development or the choice of evaluative instruments will enable them, not only to understand testing to a better degree, to a higher degree, but will also enable them to use those testing instruments in such a way as to improve the learning of the children. Now I say to improve the learning of the children for this reason: Research has shown, over the years, that testing of a child soon after the teaching and then giving the results of that test back to the child very quickly enables two things to occur.

First there is identification of whatever areas the child has missed on the test, whatever areas the child has not understood. Then remedial work can be undertaken, either remedial work undertaken by the teacher, or remedial work undertaken by the student, him or herself. So I think that these two purposes, a data base for the Department established for information purposes over time and the use of these evaluative instruments as teaching tools are two purposes that the Department can hopefully develop.

I think it is important, and I hope that we can have a system which will give us the information we need, but which at the same time, will avoid the pitfalls of the Departmental system of examinations that were established some years ago and, as I say, were abolished beginning in 1968. So if the Member for Brandon West is asking me about evaluation and how we think students are doing, the answer then, in

summary, is this: (1) lt appears that many school divisions are carrying out quite sophisticated evaluation of student achievement, and (2) that the Department through this new program in co-operation with those in education will be in a position to find out additional information over time about student performance. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Thank you, Mr.

Chairman. l listened quite carefully to the Minister and I believe it is some good news that he has indicated to the House what he is endeavouring to do in the area of having some kind of testing, because there is great concern in the minds of many parents today that they're not so sure that students - and there's always as well, at the present time, some disagreement between say, the University professors and the high school teachers as well. On one hand we' re told by the high school people and the principals that they do the testing by way of writing essays every week.

Most students have to do an essay every week and they know how to write exams, and on the other hand, you talk to some of the University people, they say, "uook, when we're getting the product out of high schools they don't know how to write an exam.

" You may have some of the top students out of the high schools that go to University and then the parents will tell you, "We're told by the University people that these students don't know how to write exams." So perhaps what the Minister is trying to do here will probably solve the problem and satisfy the two sectors, the high school and the University as well. 1 want to say to him that at the present time, there is, in the minds of many parents concern that even though the students come out of high schools with very high scholastic standing, when they do 330

Thursday,March 3, 1977 get to University, then they don't do so well. The reason the parents then are concerned, they are saying, "it's because they don't know how to write exams. " I would agree with the Minister, I think it would be wrong to go to the final examinations that we used to have long ago, where the students used to cram for exams for a full month or so and memorize most of the stuff that they thought they'd get for exams and I didn't think they had as much knowledge totally as they have now. So I agree.

But some kind of testing perhaps would satisfy the parents and the teachers and as well, maybe equip them a little better to write the final or the exams when they do reach University.

I have talked to some of the professors quite recently about this and one had said to me concerning his own kids, "Look, this student was a top student in high school and in University he found it very difficult in writing exams because he wasn't equipped in high school." And at the same time when I do talk to the high school principals, they're saying, "Look, the students do essays every week, so it's difficult to understand." But my concern would be, and I wish to ask the Minister at the present time, are the students in our high schools challenged to their highest capability.

I think that's a concern of many parents as well. Are the students in the high schools today challenged to their highest capability, and by that I mean, there's some very bright and capable students. Are they taking the easiest subjects and the easiest courses so they can have a lot of time and waste a lot of time and have an easy sort of contentment and self-fulfilment going through high school by taking easy courses, or are they really challenged to reach their highest capability and their highest potential.

There are many students with great capabilities and great potential that I am told are really picking up the very few easy courses, so it's sort of a contentment of going to high school and having a great fulfilment. I would be more concerned in this area by having so many options now in the high schools. Are we really challenging every single student to their highest capability or are we allowing most of the students to sort of pick their own courses and have an easy time in high schools.

I think that's an area that the Minister perhaps should have some communication from his Department to the high school in what way we can challenge most of our students to take the courses so they can reach their highest capability. I hope that the Minister can give us some answers, what he is doing, or is he endeavouring to do anything in this area. MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, the Member for Assiniboia, I think, has made what I regard as perhaps the most pertinent and progressive comments on these Estimates that I have heard so far today, or tomorrow.

I suppose it may be that he is able to take this stance because, indeed, he represents an area where the School Division is one of the most progressive in Manitoba. I have been in that School Division, St.

James-Assiniboia, on a number of occasions, to open new schools, to talk to the teachers, trustees and superintendents when they opened their teachers' centre and just last Saturday morning, to talk to the librarians, a meeting which happened to be held in the regional comprehensive vocational school in that School Division. lt is an impressive Division, and it is interesting that the Member for Assiniboia, coming from that area, would take the position that he has on this matter of education.

I assume that his children, some of whom are challenged on the ski slopes regularly, are children either in that school or graduated from that school system. Mr. Chairman, I believe that children should be challenged. I believe that children should be allowed to work to the maximum of their capabilities. I believe in that and I can say no more. I'm at a loss for words to describe what I am thinking in any more eloquent terms than that.

I hope that the school system, through the variety that can be provided in it by good teachers and by progressive administrators, does, in fact, either identify or enable every student who has the capacity to be challenged to the extent that it is of course sensible to challenge him or her. I do not believe in over extending children, but I think they should be challenged.

The programs that the Department of Education has in place now are programs that I think the child just will not become involved in it, then we have a problem that is not a teaching problem, it is more, in my mind, of a social problem. lt is a problem that I think, in many cases, can be traced back to the attitude of the parents towards education, to the attitude of the parents towards the school.

We can provide in this legislature millions upon millions of dollars for education and the school divisions can raise additional millions of dollars for education, but in the ultimate analysis, if you have a child who is not performing to his normal capacity I think one really has to take the parents and have a discussion with them about why their child is not performing. When I was in Flin Flon teaching we used to have what we called a "laggard policy " which in these days in education has become the kind of thing that is frowned upon by progressive educators, but it was a policy that worked.

And it worked this way, that a child - this is a high school we are dealing with - that a young woman or young man, through various testing, was identified as having a particular capacity, certain aptitudes, and certain intelligence- with all the flaws that that kind of testing might have, but one can make allowances for the flaws - then the student's academic performance was compared to what were considered to be his or her natural abilities. If there was a great disparity, in other words if you had a child measuring with an IQ of 150 with no obvious 331

Thursday,March 3, 1977 problems in the home or no obvious problems of any other kind, and the child or student was bumping along with grades of 50, then the administration took that child aside, that student aside and said, "Look, shape up or ship out." As I said, it was called the "laggard policy." Oh, there was a lot of static in the community about that policy because what it resulted in, of course, was moving some students who were old enough out of the school.

I don't know if there are school divisions now that are engaged in that kind of policy but in Flin Flon at that time, it worked. lt was a way of saying to the student, "Okay, here's the program, you've got the ability, you have no particular problem, perform." The remarkable thing was that the majority of students, as I recall, who were in that program, did in fact perform.

So the lesson I learned from that was that if you have students who are for some reason not willing to participate in the program, the school can bring to bear certain policies, but it has to be the school, it has to have the support of the staff in the school, and it has to have, of course, the support of the community at large. That is one approach.

The other approach, of course, is to somehow involve the parents in the school process because, you know, if the parental attitude towards the school is negative, then one can hardly, in reason, expect that the student will have any kind of attitude towards the school except a negative attitude. So I think that these are really the two approaches that have to be taken by educators, those who are in the field and dealing with students.

They have to do two things, reach the parents through good communication with the home, and secondly, they have to, if necessary, develop policies that do in fact require the students to measure up to their latent abilities. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE: Mr. Chairman, I have a question for the Honourable Minister. I wonder, can the Minister advise the House if the department does an evaluation on the teachers. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. TURNBULL: Mr.

Chairman, the question of evaluation of teachers is one that naturally has interested me for many years and I'm sure has interested every previous Minister of Education. lt is a contentious issue. I believe that in the last few decades we have developed in our school system a core of professional administrators - superintendents, assistant superintendents, supervisors, principals - and that these people are the ones who are in a best position to evaluate the work performance of teachers.

And I can advise the member that that evaluation is indeed carried out by the principals and by the department heads and by the superintendents. They know what the teacher is doing in the classroom. I don't think that the department has been involved in the evaluation of teachers other than what the inspectors used to do in years gone by of course, and even those evaluations, of course, were done in conjunction, consultation with the school administration. They were not evaluations done by the department alone. So I think that, Sir, is an answer to the member's question. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 49(a).

The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I was interested and pleased to hear th at the Minister is developing a program of testing that will be carried out by the department with the co-operation of the school divisions. Prior to his announcement of this - I believe this announcement for the first time of this program being actively undertaken - he did mention that many of the school divisions do carry out, and I think he said somewhat sophisticated testing of their own.

There was a reference to the Canadian Test of Basic Skills as being used by many of the divisions in Manitoba at the present time to evaluate the achievement levels. The Minister took some pride in the fact that the Manitoba scores were somewhat higher than in other parts, but I wonder if he is able to tell the committee whether or not the trend of scores nationally, that is the Canadian Test of Basic Skills , the trends nationally for the past five years, whether they have been upwards or down in that time. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. TURNBULL: Mr.

Speaker, I believe that a literate society has ever-increasing expectations of ever-greater competency and literacy. And I believe that the standards have gone up across the country. I mean, one only has to talk to some of the gentlemen and ladies that you know of senior years to know, from firsthand, how literate they were in the book-learning sense, but it's not the "be all, end-all", far from it. But one knows from very brief discussion how far they went in school and what kind of books they read, how literate in fact they were.

I think that if the member just thinks and pauses and reflects about it for a moment, he will recognize that indeed literacy levels have gone up in Canada over the last, oh, 70 years, certainly they have in Manitoba. And it is a result, I think, of the compulsory education system that we have here, have had since 1916, and the compulsory education system that we have in other parts of the country. However, Mr. Chairman, when it comes to tests and test scores, these changing or ever increasing levels of literacy as I understand it are constantly adjusted.

In other words, the score in Manitoba is adjusted on a relative basis, as I understand it, to the scores in the rest of the country so that although it's true that literacy rates have gone up everywhere, there is no disproportion in the statistics that are revealed by these tests. Do I make my point clear to the Member for Brand on West? 332

Thursday,March 3, 1977 He does not understand. Mr. Chairman, apart from getting into jargon of testers, I don't how to make it much more clear to the Member for Brand on West. What I am saying is that the norms for the Canadian Basic Skills Test are adjusted every two years. In other words, they are re-normed every two years so that the norm in Manitoba is compared to the re-norm or new norm in the rest of the country and this is done every two years. So that when I say that the Manitoba results are higher, that any inflation in there is built into what those Manitoba norms are compared to.

Let me take an economic example which the Member for Brandon West might understand more easily. I am sure he is familiar with the idea of comparing absolute increases in costs of, say, airport construction, or aircraft, say. Let's use airport construction because the design of those stays relatively the same. One can take the cost this year as compared to five years ago and say, well, the increase in the cost of construction has gone up so many dollars , it's an abso.lute comparison. You can also try to take it in constant dollars, adjusting the dollars in both years to a constant dollar figure.

Then you get a more valid comparison. I think that analogy which may be more easily understood by the Member for Bran don West will get across to him what I mean by re-norming the tests every two years in Canada on this Canadian Test of Basic Skills, at least I hope it does. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I think the Minister has attempted seriously to answer my question as to whether or not the national trends in the scores in the Canadian Test of Basic Skills had been rising or declining in five years' time.

Now whether or not they are re-normed during that period every two years, surely it would not be done to the point where it would be impossible to determine whether there had been an increasing score or a declining national score in that. But in any event, Mr. Chairman, we will not dwell on this at any great length. I would hope that the Minister is not taking comfort from the fact that Manitoba's score is higher than some other parts of Canada and that this may be because in those five years there has been a general decline in the averages achieved. But let us leave that, Mr.

Chairman, I would like to go back to the plan that the Minister has described in general terms as to how he will carry out testing under the Department of Education which will apply to the various divisions in Manitoba. My question would be whether or not this program of testing would apply to all schools in Manitoba and if so, I would assume that there would be some method of sampling the students in each of these schools.

I'd like to know how the Minister could ensure that testing a sample group of students from each school will be protected from any kind of selective activity that might take place in order to achieve a -( Interjection)- higher rating for that particular school. Yes, you said you were going to sample test in the schools in Manitoba. Now I am wondering how this can be done in a way that will prevent maybe more capable students from being put up for tests. There must be some plan involved that would prevent any kind of selective sampling of that type.

The other question I in would have is what specific grades would these tests be conducted? Did the Minister have in mind perhaps that the grade 8 or entrance stage and perhaps the grade 12 or grade 11 ... ? Was it intended in this program to carry out testing in say two or three stages of the primary and secondary schooling, or was it the intention to have it in more frequent intervals than that? So the two questions really: Could he confirm that every school would undergo a testing program under this proposal?

Could he indicate how the sampling will be done in order to ensure that there is no selectivity in the students tested so that we get an accurate reading of the average quality of the school, and at this stage in the planning at what grades would he have these tests conducted? MR. TURNBULL: The member's questions, Mr. Chairman, are really basic ones and they are questions that I will be now endeavouring to find answers to in co-operation with those in education. There is every need of course, as the member indicates, to avoid weighting the sample.

I think what he is getting at when he says selectivity is that the division somehow will choose all their best students and put them into the program that the department wants to administer. Well, that clearly is not a fair sample; it would not be a random sample. What I expect to be able to do from this day on is enter into discussions with those in education who are administering education in the province to work out the best technique for determining a random sample of students. The same consultative process wi 11 be involved for determining wh i eh subjects and which grade levels.

We wi 11 need with the program that I have here to be quite limited in the first year of application. I am sure the member appreciates that through the process that has to be gone through one cannot really get into discussion with groups outside of the government until you've got the money in your budget, until your budget is approved in the Legislature. One never knows, of course, this year when we'll all be dissolved as the saying goes, and be out on the hustings.

I wanted to make sure that this item was approved before I committed myself publicly to the expenditure of money and to the development of a testing system. But those in education have got to be involved in the development of the sample and they must be involved in the determination of which subject areas and which grade levels should be tested. You did ask also a question as to whether every school would be involved. Well, in this first year it's 333

Thursday,March 3, 1977 pretty obvious that every school may not be involved. That is something that will have to be determined as I say through this process of involving those in education. I do not have a testing program. I do not have vast amount of money to implement a testing program in every school, but what I hope to see occur is that overtime we would choose particular grades, particular subjects, and determine, on a rotational basis, that we did get, in fact, to every school with that test. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, I know that this is in the formative stage and probably a debate would be premature, but if the Minister is proposing a program which would rotate the schools tested over a period of years, I am wondering how he could compare, at any particular time, the quality of the achievement levels in all of the schools in Manitoba. lt seems to me that that might defeat the very purpose for which the Department might be involved in this testing.

I know that if we have it at the Departmental level, we will perhaps have taken a great step to eliminate what might be termed "an inflationary tendency" in marking where individual schools are involved with their own testing, that there tends to be, over a period of time, an optimistic view of the achievement levels of the pupils of those who are directly concerned with their education. So I would be looking to some kind of a plan that would at least have embodied in it the ability in any one year to compare the product of all of the schools.

Now, the Minister mentioned that in this first year, he might not be able to have this program operating in a complete and final form, but do I understand from that, then, Mr. Chairman, that the Minister intends to have this program in place for September of this coming year, that is, that there will be a form of testing by the Department of Education beginning in September? MR. TURNBULL: Well, Mr.

Chairman, that would be my tentative time horizon, but 1 know the Member for Brandon West is reasonable on these things and he recognizes that when you become involved in a consultative process with as many people as there are involved in education, that you can't always make things happen as quickly as you would like.

I mean, he was pointing out just yesterday that he didn't think that I could accomplish those things that I wanted to even within the Department as quickly as I would like and was taking me to task for trying to do it in the way that I thought would be more direct than through the usual bureaucratic channels. So I am sure that he recognizes this problem and is reasonable. I want to point out to him, though, that there are statistically reliable methods of selecting students and schools and grades, etc. This can be done. Don't forget the main purpose I have in mind here is comparison over time.

I do not want to get into the situation where we are testing one school against another. I do not want to get into the situation where we are testing one division against another, I do not want to get into a situation where we are testing one teacher against another, through, in all those cases, the examination of the results of student achievement in those schools. That is not the purpose.

From the Department's point of view, the purpose is to establish information over time as to what we can expect of our students and how they are doing. lt will be much the same, in terms of an information base, as the base that is already established for the Canadian tested basic skills.

But this whole process of developing it, I think, indeed, can be done and I am, quite honestly, seeking openly the co-operation of those involved in education, because I believe that it is supremely important to all those in education, trustees, teachers, students, the parents and the legislators, that we know, over time, how our students are performing in the schools. By trying to achieve that goal, I do not want to get into the old system of departmental examinations.

I just don't think that that system had the benefits that many of us might think it had. lt's the kind of system that worked for some, but not for others. So this is a process of developing either a formulation of tests or the selection of tests that I hope to go through with the interested groups, or my staff will go through with the interested groups. I think it will achieve its purpose over time. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, the Minister said that he wanted to avoid comparing the achievement of various school divisions in carrying out this testing program.

He did not have in mind comparing the achievements of various divisions or various schools in Manitoba. Mr. Chairman, I ask the Minister, how does he expect to determine whether he is achieving an equality of educational opportunity if he doesn't in fact compare the achievement levels of those in the Turtle Mountain schools with St. James. lsn't this really what part of the testing program is all about, that we want to be sure that schools offer the same opportunities and the way that these opportunities are reflected are surely in the achievement levels of the students. MR. TURNBULL: Mr.

Chairman, the Member for Brandon West has, I think, just got himself into the problem that many lay people get themselves into when they address themselves to evaluation of student achievement in the schools. Ultimately, it can be shown that evaluation evaluates the socio economic status of the community in which the tests are administered.

In other words, Sir, if you take a community in which there are predominantly University professors, medical doctors, lawyers and engineers and take their students and test them, and then take another community where that is not the predominant types of occupations, you will find, invariably, that there will be a difference in student performance on those tests. it's because of that problem that I do not want to get into comparisons with one division and another. The evaluation system is not a system that is designed to 334

Thursday,March 3, 1977 insure equality of educational opportunity. Evaluation does not do that. What evaluation does and what I hope it will do in this program, is show us, over time, how our students are doing as an aggregate. That's the interest I have in it from the Department's point of view.

But let us not lose sight of the fact of the statements I made earlier that there is every need to involve the teachers in the process of selection and development of these tests so that they can use the testing mechanism as a teaching tool, because that is vitally important. lt is a second purpose, but perhaps even more important than the rather simple purpose of trying to ascertain over time how our students are doing through the information level that we can get from a system of tests. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, I have one or two questions relating to the technical operations of the Evaluation Research and Policy Analysis Branch, and one question that I would put to the Minister relates to the Director of the Branch. I wonder if he could tell the Committee why the Director of this Branch, the one that was in office a year ago, was replaced after a very brief tenure in office. MR. TURNBULL: This person, who was Director of the Evaluation Branch, when I became the Minister, was in the process of making a move, and did indeed move to another branch. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, we have given the Minister some advance notice of my next question. lt relates to the qualifications of the new Acting Director of this Branch. I think the Minister has received the Order for Return and I wonder if he could tell the committee just what is the experience of the Acting Director in elementary and secondary education, and what is her experience in evaluation research and policy analysis as applied to public education. MR. TURN BULL: Mr.

Speaker, I am indeed glad that the pipeline to the Member for Brandon West has told him that the Acting Director of Evaluation, Research and Policy Analysis is a "her", that is good to know that he has got accurate information. The person who is director of the branch holds a Masters Degree from the University of Manitoba, having graduated in 1963, it is a Degree in Social Work. The person involved has had fairly extensive experience as Supervisor of Foster Care Services in the Inner City of Montreal and Children's Services Centre for three and a half years.

Her job is one that is a management function, and I think that those particular qualifications are as good as one might expect for a person in this particular job, . carrying out these particular functions. MR. McGILL: I gather then, Mr. Chairman, that the present Director has not been involved previously in Evaluation, Research and Policy Analysis in the field of Public Education, but that the experience has been in other fields. MR. TURNBULL: Mr.

Speaker, I thought the first question was what are the qualifications of the present incumbent and I was attempting to give those qualifications, but I did not indicate to the member and now I will in response to this question, that she has been with the branch for over three years. I think that that is important in moving a person into a position, even on a acting basis. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that Committee rise. MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee rise. Call in the Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, the Committee of Supply has considered certain resolutions, directed me to report progress and asks leave to sit again. IN SESSION MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Welli ngton that the report of the Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: : The hour of 10:00 o'clock having arrived, the hour of adjournment, the House is adjourned and will stand adjourned until 10:00 a.m. tomorrow morning. 335

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-4-11b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 4th hansardpdf 11b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	3e83b9be53d7574770fb43696928c78f458f80ff

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