Volume 2 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 2nd Session VERBATIM REPORT Wednesday, February 28, 1973 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 15

February 28, 1973 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape no. HON. DR. A. T. ROWE (Minister of Health): 374 Page 1 - MRW Mr~ Speaker, I wish to make a statement regarding an

article which appeared in the "Evening Telegram~ 24 February 5 headed, 11Hospital Fiasco Under Scrutiny. 11 The

article seems to me to give the impression that this hospital was to proceed without any heed to costs and regardless of coat and suggestd to me that the Department of Health and the minister were irresponsible in this regard. This I refute and there are several points I wish to make in this regard. Firstly, I would like to say that as far as the Department of Health is concerned and as far as I am personally concerned, there has been no underhandedness with regard to any aspect of any construction of the hospital.

I am quite willing for the department and myself to undergo scrutiny from any direction regarding the activites of the department as they relate to any aspect of this project. To fully review the situation, I would now mention the fact that it was in 1966 this particular hospital was promised, an election promise.in the intervening yeara,1966-1971,in spite of proddings at the government by the board and by myself,at that time as a practicing physician,and by others,in regard to the importance of the hosnital, no specific action was taken. The election of 1966 gave assurance that the hospital would be built.

We were given to understand that construction would start in 1967. In January, 1972, when I entered the Department of Health,was minister and required the plans for the hospital, I was told that there were no specific plans. I was told that there were no specific plans except for the design of the hospital. A review of the activities 1085

February 28, 1973 Mr. Rowe" Tape no. 374 Page 2 from 1966 to 1972 confirms that in the l::mdge.t, examination of the estimate.a shows that for the years 1969-1970, 1970-1971 no money was provided for. If work had ccm:menced on the hospital in 1967 1086

February 28, 1973 Tape No. 375 NM - 1 instead of 1972, several millions of dollars would have been saved in view of the fact construction costs have been escalating at a rate of fifteen per cent per year. As it was only preliminary planned, it was also only preliminary budgeted, for a ·total of approximately $7 million. You could take the figure $7 million, escalate by fifteen per cent~ you can readily appreciate and understand increased costs.

I was somewhat amazed by the statements from officials of the department when enquiring as to the status of the plans, to find that in January the only heading of the hospital was Conception Bay Hospital and I understand that the change in the name had been made because of the fact th~t there was some question of a hospital beinr, built in Bay Roberts at that time and in order not to confuse the issues and the two matters being incompatable, it was decided to call the hospital the Conception Bay Hospital.

But, as I say, in January 1972 and because no plans have been finalized, I was advised that the quickest method of commencement was by a construction mana~ement. The advantage of construction management included the facts that because the project had been started before final plans and specification were completed, the project was considered a suitable one for construction management in order to keep construction under way while plans and specifications were being completed.

Construction management techniques by breaking the work down into smaller packages could provide the completed structure at an earlier date and at the lowest cost possible 1 rather than if one had waited until all plans were completed. Thirdly the preparation of a realistic budget and control of cost to complete the project within this predetermined budget were possible, and for supervision and co-ordination of all field construction to ensure building completion in accordance with plans will be achieved, and a proposal 1G87

Februnry 28, 1973 Tape No. 375 NH - 2 from representatives of Scrivener 1 s was accepted and a fee agreed upon of $490 1 000, The project was then passed officially into the hands of the Department of Health and arrangements made to finalize plans for construction, materials, plumbing, mechanical, heating, etc. and the whole point of construction management was that these tenders could he culled in phases, not waiting for all plans to be drawn. Th-1·., was the manner in which construction management was to attain efficiency and cut down both cost and time.

A considerable number of meetings with representatives of Scrivener's and the Department of Health took plnce regarding the project and by early summer it became apparent that we were in the position to start tenders~ It was at this time that the question of reassessment of cost and fees began to be of concern to the department and myself, and here for these reasons I strong refute the statement in the article, that turning the hospital over to the Department of Health was u colossal bhmder.

This was an opinion only. 'Why Health became involved was because nothing worthwhile had be.en accomplished and He were anxious to get started. 1 can say in no uncertain terws that the project was not hurried without serious consideration being given to cost. Instead the advice give tome at the outset was thnt construction management would cut costs. In the next few months, from April on~ the planning went forward and there was evidence by early summer we could proceed.

However, instead of minor adjustments as indicated, in actual fact the proposed fees of Scri.v,,n,,r when they became project manage.rs rather than construct.ion managers, were shown to be considerably increased. The total rose from $7.5 million to $9~5 million made up as follows: Actual construction costs - $6,700,000, plus further cost including contingency progressive designs, design fees, management ango 1\J O

February 28, 1973 Tape No. 375 NM - 3 construction, hospital equipment and furnishings, bringing it to a total of $9,490,000. Now because of the disagreement between Scriveners and the government over the question of fees, it was decided that the Deparmtent of Public Works would assume responsibility for negotiating this dispute and the project would therefore be returned to the Department of Public Works.

There was no suggestion of questioning the efficiency of the officials of the Department of Health, but removal back to the Department of Public Works following government becoming a-wnre, through us that Scriveners had asked for substantial increases. In all fairness,! do not think that any increase fee hns yet been ratifjed with Scriveners.

Another point I would like to make is that during the summer of last year, when I became very concerned about the escalating costs and made this known to the government and recommended immediate action, again at this time the project went back to the Department of Public Works, During the time the project was under the supervision of the Department of Health, only one public tender was awarded, in June,when public tenders were called for the hoiler house structures. The Babb Construction Company was awarded the contract,at $144,800, which was the lowest of four bids.

Other tenders on this phase of the work was Seaboard Construction,at $237,000; Parsons Engineering,at $222,000; Newfoundland Engineering Company, $189,000. After awarding this tender the project was again returned to the Department of Public Works and subsequent tendering of follow ... up was handled by that department. Because of discussions with Scriveners and other cost reasons, a stop order was placed on the hospital in July~ just when tenders were appearing in the press and consequently, 1089

Tape No. 375 due to this and other delays, all the good surr,mer construction weather was lost and an actual start was not made until late fall but great progress has been made since then. I cnn only repeat that as far as the department is concerned and as far as I am concerned, there was no endeavour to rush the building without regard to costs. To sunmH.rrize, I myself was satisfied that the best way of getting the project off the ground waa by construction manusernent.

I can only reiterate t:hnt I was informed that this would not increase cost~ indeed it will actually lower costs and that was the basis on which the decision wns made to etilize construction I reiterate again the fact that during the summer of last ye.ar,,.;hen these costs were escalating~nll these facts were brought to the attention of my colleagues. I say that at the appropriate time I shall be quite happy to answer nny questions regarding any aspect of the operation.

I am really surprised that the reporter~ although interviewing the Premier and the honourable Minister of Finance and other officials~ did not out of perhaps common courtesy interview me either as Minister of Health or H.H.A. for Ca.rbon,e,cr I could have been given the opportunity of correcting some of the misconceptions which have resulted from the article. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Thank youj Mr. Speaker. Hr. Speaker, I hope the minister has either a copy I could have or copies for the honour.able members of the House.

I do not propose to make any detailed comment on this matter now. It will be the subject either of a private members 1 resolution or of some detailed col'fu~ent during the ministerts estimates and during the estimates of the tl~partment of his colleague, the Minister of · 10 90

February 28, 1973 Tape No. 375 NM - 5 Public Works. In due course they will be brought: into the House and we shall go into it at length. I will not deal at all with whnt the ~inister said with reference to the period before he became minister. We will go into that at any length that is needed, except to say that the reason it was Conception Bay Hospitals in the estimates was that at that time the plan was to have two hospitals,indeed I believe the foundation was actually started for the hospital at Bay Roherts.

That hospital was subsequently stopped by the present administration when they assumed office and that is where that matter stnnds. Carbonenr Hospital has of course gone on since then, The only thing I will say, Mr. Speaker, is that the ministerts statement raises infinitely more questions. than it answers. It does not answer the questions which arise out of the "Evening Telegram''

article and more importantly it does not answer the questions which either are on the Order Paper in my name or which are going on the Order Paper. 1 have no doubt we will p,et some answers in due course. The whole question of the Carbonear Hospital obviously requires great examination. Nobody has accused the minister of anythinr;. He seemed to he implying in his statement that there were such accusations. nm not aware of any. I read the "Eveninp: Telegramn nrticle and I was not aware of any accussations against any minister or any group of ministers or any government for thnt matter.

AN HON. )-lEMll.IB.;_ Inaudible. !~OB.E:RJ].: Mr. Speaker, beinv an over-zealous politician, if that is a crime, I hope they will have to bu:i.ld rather large jails. I hope - this House has forty-two. DR. ROWE: Inaudible. 1091

28, 1973 Tape No. 375 'fR. ROBERTS: It hurts the minister, of cotn:se it hurts the minister. It may even hurt him politically but that is a long wa.y from imputations about his personal probity, his personal honesty and they say his conduct as minister is obviously open to debate and is going to be debated at some length and the truth will emerge. The point I am making in reply to the statement, Afr~ Chairman, is that I do not 1'-JJ.ow where the minister got these imputations of dishonesty. I did not read any into the nrticle. I read into the

article what amounted to accusations of nppulliniz mismanagement by the minister. Now that is a lon;r way from personal dishonesty or from corruption or from anything alonp those lines, As I say,I do not intend to comment on it now~ it is a l,:mg,lengthy statement which I shall want to read and to analyse. We will either bring in a private members 1 resolution, Sir, asking for an appropriate investigation~or we will request the matter on estimates to see what the iovernment 1 s response is then. In the meantimet all I can say is thot the minister is making a great deal out of it.

It confirms my suspicion, there is a great deal more yet to be made out of it and we will he doing our part. PRESENTING PETITIONS: MR. HOORES: Mr. Speaker, before the presenting of petitions, I would like if possible at this time, Sir. to HHl2

February ?" 1973 Tane 176 move that this hon. Hause record our deepest synpathy .:1t the sad loss to Nevfnundland nf tacly Dorothy iluterhridr-e nnd to extent to her devoted 1nrnban0. Sir 'Leonard Onterbridr.:e, and her dau?hter. Mrs. Winter~ our decriE>st sympathy. Lady Outerbridr;e wns so well known in }!ewfottmllanrl for her ·devoted vork to clrnrity and socially motivated activities that very little needs to be said in expressing sorrow on her passinr:.

Lndy Outerhridge was a distinguished citizen and torether with her lmsLan<l she served the province Fell in Govern.'11ent Honse from 1 oz,9. the very her,inninrc of Nt?wfoundl and' s foining the f.onfederntion of Cana,!a, to ]957 and during that period endeared herself ns nn inilividual to ;ill tlewfoundlanders. She was not born in Newfound1 nml but through her p.reat public service and her work with vouth .1nd service organizations she he.came one of us .is 1 nm sure ev('rvnnc will nr:ree. Lady Outerbridge will nerhllPf: he> hest remP"'lher for her Por!: with NO!HA, the 1.0.D.E. and the rrf'nfe11 Assncintfon.

T know i!1.l rtf'mbc.rs of this House of 1\ssenhlv inin wjth me in nfff'rin;: resp1cct nnd tribute to this rreat lady and I move thnt this House convPy its condolences :rntl its sincere svmnathv to the faMilv of Lady Outerbridge. "'P,·._F:..,•_"~•--~n)i_f.:RTS (LEADER OF Tr!E OPPOSITION.2_: ifr. Speaker. thls Js the third time within a pPriod of ten davs or a fortnight that the 1iouse has been zisVed to sunrwrt a resolution of tribute to a distinrulshed ~fowfoundlandcr.

I finrl it much harder to speak on this occnsion than JM - l on anv of the others he cause Lady Outerbridpe was more than a leac1inp. citizen to me, Sir. Mv parents and I livPd next door to the Onterbridges for ten venrs,on Pringle Place here in St. John's,and came to know Ladv Outerbri.df;e and Sir Leonard extremely well. T. endorse wh:it the Premier has sai<l n½out Lady Outerl-iddge. Sh(' 1093

February 28, 1973 Tape 376 JH - 2 graced the Government House as the first lady of our nrovince from just after When Sir Leonard was appointed Governor, Sir Albert Walsh wns the first Lieutenant Governor of Newfoundlnnd and Sir Lgonard succeeded him in 1949 as Lieutenant Governor of the nrovince and as His Haiesty 1 s personal representative and later r,ers0nal representntive of the Queen, Sir Leonard 1 s term of office, Mr.

Speaker, set the. standard by which n.11 subsequent governors of this province will be measured, He have been honoured over the years by the men who have served us au governor all the way from the gentleman who presently holds the place to his inmedinte predecessor the Hon. Hr. O 'Den and he fore him the Hon, Mr. :-'facPherson and then before thnt Sir Leonard. Sir Leonard's tems of office, Sir, was mnrked for rnanv things and nmong the prcatest of them was Larly Outerbri<lge 1 n contribution.

She wns a charming lady, 11 perfect hostess. the soul of kindliness and de.cencv nnd gentility, everything that can be adnircd and treasured in u lady. As! ca'1le to know her well in the years after the Outcrbri<lges left Government House and lived next door tony parents. He often v:isted their home and they often visited my narents home.

Her work in the Grenfell Association, with '!-WNIA.and she was the lifeblood of NONI}., the spark that kept it r,:oin~ for years,and with such orranizations as the I.O.D.E .• these will be remembered. l:lcr work in the Anglican Church, her work int.he variouFJ societies and grours nnd bodies, all of these. Sir, will be renembered and treasured but what will be. remembered most about Lndy Outerbridge is her kindliness and her graciousness _ well, the word ,;Lady" in the best sense of the word.

I nni sure that every member of the House will support this, Sir, and I do hope it is of some consti:lation to her daughter, Mrs. Dick Winter, Mrs. Nancy Hinter~and to her three grandchildren~ two 1094

February 28, 1973 Tape 376 JM - 3 young girls and a younr boy and the other members of the family. I mii;:;ht nlso suggest, Sir. it is a little unusual but the funeral service for Lady lluterbridge is to be held tomorrow afternoon at three o'clock, I believe, in the Cathedral. I a.'l'! sure many members will want to attend nnd :it might be possible, Your Honour, for the House to sit late tomorrow afternoon so that we could attend.

I am going to attend the funeral anyway and I susp~ct many members will,but if that is ,in order let us do it. 1n any event. let me second the motion and with very heartfelt sorrow I do so. MR. MOORES: If I may, Mr. Speaker 4 I would take the recommendation suggested by the Leader of the Opposition that this afternoon upon adjournment · the House Leader of the government side will propose that we will meet again at four 0 1 clock on tomorrow fol: this particular reason, I thank him for his suggestion. PETITIONS: MR. W.N. ROWE: Mr. Speaker.

I beg leave to present a petition which I have received from the Community of Westport. Now before I proceed with it, Mr. Speaker, I should note that the petition is out of order in this House because it is a request for finances and help from the federal government really because it is a matter which comes under the jurisdiction of the federal government and I know previously in this House that it has been ruled out of order.

I am sure that with the equanimity with which both sides deal with these matters of late that nobody in this House will deny the people of Westport a public hearing in this particular forum on this matter. What they asked for, Mr* Speaker, is assistance by me and by the Governoent of Newfoundland and Labrador to help the Community of Westport to get a new wharf in that community which would be of benefit to the fishermen and others who prosecute the fishery and ploy other trades in that community. The whaif there is in an atrocious condition 1095

February 28, 1973 Tape 376 JM - 4 nntl the M.P. for the district, Mr. Romkey;has viewed it and is concerned about it ns well. I run sure that he will be trying to do something about it. I would suggest, Sir, without going any further with that the petition be received by this hon. House and tabled and at some later date the clerk might return it to me so that I can forward it on to the Federal Department of Public Works. I am in full sunport of the prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker, and I certainly hope that the federal government sees it possihle in the months to come to find the money to do that job. ~m. G.H.

WIL~,OJ.!_:,_ :1r. Speaker, I beg leave to present a Petition on behalf of seventy-eight residents of the Mill Road, Georgetown,to have their road upgraded. Mr. Speaker, I have travelled over this road prettv often, I travelled over it this morning about half past eight and I find the school buses bogged down in this road this last couple of weeks. I also found in the last rninstorn a distance of 860 feet with eighteen inches of water where no car could get to and from the houses on the other side of the marsh.

These people have been living under these conditions for a long, long while and apparently there has been nothing done about it. I am sorry to have to say, Mr. Speaker~ in this honourable Rouse that I had to come to be elected in this House of Assembly to find out the holes in my district that were never known or heard tell of hy the former administration. Therefore, ?--fr.

Speaker, I have great r,lensure in supporting this petition to fH~P if I can get something done for the Community of r:eorgetown ;ind I hope that the people will bear with it in Ge.orpetown a little. longer until the time of the year comes when we can arrive to do something about this road. Thank you. Hr. Speaker, I would ·,like to support the petition presented by the member for Port de Grave~who is a bus driver ,on behalf of seventy-eight residents of Hill Road in the Georgetown Area. ! do not 1096

February 28, 1973 Tape 376 suppose, Mr. Speaker, that there is any other man in that district who knows more about potholes than the hon. menbc.r becnuse Tam snre that it costs him a fair amount of money for .springs for his school huscs. I hope, Sir, that if this road is upgraded and onved, as it should he because it is a reasonable ·request, that no more children will be standin~ on the side of the road getting snlashed with water from potholes or on a cold frigid winter day children left on the side the road~ I hope this will never happen <1;'Rin.

Sir 1 and when :_.on. member is driving down in his bus over that new niece of road vhen is paved by the Minister of Highwavs thtit nlJ ttH; children wiH be. able to get aboard and be taken to school. NOTICE OF MOT IO~!: left of it JM - 5 l)lJJl. J. ROUSSEAU (MINISTER OE REHABILITATION A'!D RECREATION): Hr. Speal-er.

T rive notice that T will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the fol lowing resolution: ¼1-IEREAS it is proposed hv the Government of Cnnada to install microwave service to Western Lnbrador and in particulnr to the Labrador City, Wabush and Churchill Falls Areas in order to extend to this area the French and Enr,lish language networks of the. f":madi:m nroadcasting Corporation, and

WHEREAS the French lani::uagc portion of the network will emanate from the Province of Quebec 1097

Februar::,.., 28, 1973 Tape no. 377 Page l - MRW

WHEREAS it is planned that the English portion of the network will emnnate from the Province of New Brunswick, and W11El1.EAS by reason of these decisions Newfoundlanders will be deprived of live regional programming emanating from their province~ and

WHEREAS this honourable House of Assenbly views with extreme alarm the effect of such a decision upon the social and economic well-being of au:r people, THEREFORE BE IT :RESOLVED that this honourable House of Assembly take the position that the English Languar,e portion of the network should be fed from the province of Newfoundland in order to meet the social:, cultural and economic requirements of our people.and BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the desires and requirements of the people of Newfoundland as expressed to this honourable House he communicated directly to the Government of Canada and the appropriate official thereof, and THEREFORE BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the wishes of this honourable House of Assembly be conveyed to the Minister of Transport and other officials of the Government of Canada as shall be deemed necessary.

MR. SPEA..'(ER: I shall accept the resolution under advisement and make the ruling on it later on today. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS HON. T. A. HICKMAN (Minister of Justice): Mr. Speaker, the answer to Question No. 50 asked by the hon. member for White Bay South, on the Order Paper of Monday, February 26, the answer to question (

a) is: "$8,272~44. 11 The answer to (b): n$1,722.32. 11 The answer to (c): ''there were no other expenses included. n I will lay on the table of the House the names of the various periodicals in which these advertisements were carried. I hasten to add, Mr. Speaker, that the end is not in sight. 1098

February 28, 1973 Tape no. 377 Page 2 HON* G~ OTTENHEIMER (Minister of Education): Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the answer to Question No. 59, appearing on the Order Paper of February 27, asked by the hon. member for St½ Barbe South. MR. SPEAKER: Before we go on with Orders of the Day, I beg to inform the members of this honourable House of the select committee to investigate the denturist situation in the province. This committee will consist of the following mewbers; the hon. member for St, John 1 s South, the hon. member for Carbonear, the hon.

Minister of Health, the hon. member for Bonavista South, the hon. member for Bonavista North and the hon. member for Twillingate. QRDERS OF TI!E DAY MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, 1 would like to direct a question to the hon. Minister of Public Works~ Would the honourable minister inform the House if a statement made today on radio is correct, that a Japanese firm is going to take over or establish a fish plant on the south coast? HON. H. R. V. EARLE (Minister of Public Works and Services): Mr. Speaker, I have not heard the announcement but if the word fish plant were used it is a complete misconception.

I think possibly what has beenmferred to is some project which has been worked on continuously for the past several months by my colleague the hon~ Minister of Fisheries and myself, in connection with a fish service depot to the fishermen in the area from Pool's Cove to Wreck Cove, encompassing eight settlements in that area~ This under no stretch of the imagination can be called a fish plant. We are hopeful of being able to provide a fish servicing depot for the fishermen in that area and the minister and myself have been working very actively on it during this past several months.

With reference to the Japanese gentlemen the fact is that a Japanese firm has shown interest in using part of that depot, when and if it is establishedifor the partial processing of certain types of fish products. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing who is not in his seat this afternoon, would the hon. Premier 1099

Tape no. 377 Page 3 Hr. Neary- inform the House if any representation has been received from the people in the Baird Subdivision,who were affected by the last wind and rain storm we had,for assistance to help out in the emergency? HR, NOORES; I take notice of the question, Mr¢ Speaker~ HR. NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to direct a question now to the hon. Minister of Manpc,wer and Industrial Relations.

Due to the fact that the honourable minister has announced publiclv that he is going to release the Hattenhauer Royal Commission Report on Safety and Health Hazards at the ERCO Phosphorous Plant, would the minister indicate whether he is going to do this House the courtesy of tabling the report for members of the House before he r;,akes it pub lid HON, W. G. DAWE (Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations): The report will be tabled before it is made public~ HR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a nuestion to the hon. Minister of Highways.

Last night on CBC television news the honourable minister said that paving on the Great Northern Peninsula Highway was a top priority of this administration. Would the minister tell this Jmnourable House what formal proposals the administration have made to the federal government for the paving of the Great Northern Peninsula Highway and at what date? HOH. DR. T. C. FARELL (Minister of Highways): All roads are priorities of this government. We will let the honourable member know exactly when our negotiations are finalized. MR. ROBER'FS: A supplementary question, if the minister is finished. HR.

FAR.RELL: Yes, sir~ MR~ ROBERTS: Have the. government made any requests to Ottawa for aid or assistance to paving the Northern Peninsula Road, if so when and uh.at? 1100

February 28, 1973 Tape no~ 377 Page 4 MR. FARRELL: The full context.: of that 1 Sir, will be revealed in due time,. MR. ROBERTS: ML Speaker, I take it that there have been no representations at all. A further question - does the hon~ Premier vish to answer the question? Go ahead if you have something to say. _MR. MOORES: Before the hon. Leader of the Opposition asked his other question - he said, nno representations have beenrnade to Ottawa. 11 Mr. Speaker, that is an incorrect statement. HR. llllBERTS: I thank the hon. the Premier. I wonder if the Premier could tell us what representations have been made,please?

MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, it would be a very lengthy list because we have made representations to Ottawa of where we need assistance in so many areas of our society. where the federal and provincial governments will be co-operating. I am sure even the hon. Leader of the Opposition will see a great deal of progess in our province in the next three years because of joint planning and joint efforts~ MR. ROBERTS: The Leader of the Opposition very much hopes to see- some progress which is more than he has seen in the past year, Mr. Speaker. I asked about highways.

Hy remarks about representations referred to highways, specifically the highway from Deer Lake~ north to St. Anthony. HR. MOORES: The highway, Mr. Speaker, north from Deer Lake to St. Anthony will have a great deal more paving on it after this administratio~ than after twenty-three years of the last. MR. ROBERTS: I should certainly hope so, Mr. Speaker, after all it was the Liberals who built it, let the Tories pave it~ John Crosbie promised to pave it.

Now a question for the Minister of Health, Could the minister tell us please what the prospects are of having a doctor stationed at Belleoram - English Harbour, English Harbour West,on the western side of Fortune Bay? DR. llllWE: Mr~ Speaker, I am sure the hon. Leader of the Opposition is as aware as I am of the difficulty in having doctors enter into rural 1101

Tape no. 377 Page 5 practices these days. I can only say that we have had since October~ to which yon are referring, aight or ten come out~ another ten being processed. A doctor who is coming this week is now going to fill the gapj hopefully, at Hampden which was caused recently by the death of Dr. Misik. I can tell the. honourable gentleman that I am doing my very best. A doctor went down to look at the practice recently and decided he did not wish to establish himself in this sort of area.

I can only tell the honourable gentleman that I am trJing~ It is very hard trying to get a doctor who will settle in the area~ I have had letters from. the individuals there. I have had representations from the members. 1 am very aware of the situation. I can only ask a doctor to go~ I cannot compel a doctor to stay there. I run doing my utmost and I hope that within the next months we will have someone relatively permanently settled there~ MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister~ I am aware to nn extent of some of the difficulties of this type of problem.

In view of the fact, as I understand it, there is no doctor in Hermitage at present, there are two doctors stationed at Harbour Breton (I understand one of them is a,t present away, presumably on official le.ave of one sort or another) and there are none,'in Belleoram, so we have only two doctors covering an area which at least four should cover, could he indicate what steps he has been taking to try to alleviate this? I understand that the matter is becoming more urgent day by day. 1102

FEBRUARY 28, 1973, Tape 378, Pagel - apb HOil. DK. A.T.ROWE (MINISTER OF HEALTH): Mr. Speaker, I have tried to answer the question~ I am not quite sure if this was a supplementary question but I can only say that I had a doctor go down recently and he came bnck and said that he did not want to stay so now I have to find somebody else who will go downe If they go down and look at it~ that is about as far as I can go~ I will ask a doctor to go doim, come :into the area and he requests to come back; "I want to practice soernwhere else.

" I can only say that I am doing my best and when a doctor will stay the.re I will be very happy to give him the post. MR. ROBERTS: A further supplementary, Hr. Speaker. Can the minister indicate when the 'residence-cum-clinic that was promised by his colleague the gentleman from Fortune Bay will be built? I understand that one of the problems is that there is no adequate place for a doctor to live. DR. ROWE: This is Mose Ambrose-Belleoram. Tenders were called last year and because of the escalated figure of the cost that was produced we decided not to build.

Tenders are in the process of bein~ recalled and I think my last information was that they will be recalled within the next couple of weeks. The present residence can be used,but it is hoped that if they call the tenders now then this new residence will be provided before the end of the season. MR. ROBERTS: A final supplementary on this, Mr. Speaker. Are we to assume and I am not assuming this, but I phrase it this way for the question, are we to assume that a doctor can be stationed there before the new residence and clinic is completed;or must we wait until it is completed? DR.

ROWE: A doctor can be stationed as soon as I find a doctor who will go there. He can stay there now, hut it will be much :improved as far as his quarters are concerned when the new house is built. MR. F .B.ROWE: Mr. Speaker, a question to the honourable Minister of Highways and this relates to the work going on on the Great Northern 1103

February 28, 1973, Tnpe 378, Page 2 -- apb Peninsula between Deer Lake. and the Gros Marne National Park and in the Arca of H.awke's Bay and Port Saunders and Port aux Choix. Can the minister Liforn the House as to whether or not the agreement has been worked out between the Federal Government and the Government of Newfoundland for this work? Was an agreement worked out between the rn:e.vious administration and the federal government or the present administration and the, federal government? llON. DR. T.G.FARRELL (MINISTER OF TRANSPORTATION AND CO!AM!JNICATIONS): Mr.

Speaker 1 ! have already stated that negotiations are ongoing on all these matters at the present time~ HR. _ROWE (F ~B. t: The minister did not answer the question, 1-fr ~ Speaker. What I am asking.,is the work that is presently being done on the firea.t Northern Peninsula Highway, is this a result of an agreement that was signed between the previous administration or the present administration? DR. FARRELL: The previous administration. SONE HON. MEMBERS: Rear! Hear! DR. FARRELL: I say hear! hear! too. There is one truthful man across the House. MR. F~B.ROWE: Probably a word of explanation 1 Mr. Speaker.

SOME IlON. ME}fBERS_:- (Inaudfble) NR. SPEAKER_: Order please! The honourable member should get on with the question~ no words of explanation, otherwise he should place his question on the Order Paper~ HR. M.M.ARTIN: !4r. Speaker, I have a question I would like to direct to the. Minister of Highways. Does the honourable minister have any plans at this time for the upgrading and reconstruction of the ferry te.nninal at St. Barbe and the construction of a terminal on the Labrador Side of the watcr,on the other side of the Straits? DR. FARRELL: I am sorry, Hr.

Speaker, could I have the question repeated I could not hear it.. NR. HARTIN: Yes, I will repeat it. DR. FARilELL:+ I am a little deaf at times. 1104

February 28, 1973~ Tare 378, Page 3 -- apb MR~ M~MARTJB-=.. Are there any plans this year, Sir, for the upgrading and reconstruction of the ferry terminal facilities at St. Barbe and ,are there nny plans for the construction of terminal - ferry terminal facilities in this province on the other side of the Straits? At the present time,as you may he aware, the ferry terminal facilities are in Quebec. DR. FARRELL: "Nr~ Speaker, I would like to inform the honourable member for Labrador South that these facts will be divulged in the budget. MR. \IOODIIARD: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the honourable the Premier. During his recent visit to Quebec and his talks with Premier Bourassa, I would like to ask if they discussed the Trans-Labrador Hir;hway, if there are any negotiations or joint negotiations between the two provinces concerning that.particular highway and if we can look forward to havinr; some agreement with the federal people come this year on thnt particular programme? t~ HOORES :_ The answer to the question or the three questions, Mr. Speaker, are yes, yes~and hope so. .OJDERS OF TI!E DAY: HR.

SPEAKER: This being private members' day, we should move on to continue with motion (4). ·soME HON. HE!IBERS: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order please! We should continue with motion (4) and I would lilre to inform the honourable member for Bell Island that he has five minutes left in which to finish up. MR. _N_E..A.RY: Hr. Speaker, it is rather unfortunate that I only have five minutes left. I could go on again the whole afternoon and probably take up private members' day next week on this matter of Pr.

McLean and his dealin~s with the governmenL Sir, I pretty well covered the situation last week, but there are a few other points that I want to raise before I take my seat. This time I am quoting from the''Newfoundland Herald 11 of December 27. I would 1105

February 27: 1973, Taep 378, Page 4 -- apb like to draw this to the honourable member1 s attention. non Monday, December 18 1 a group of variously sodden journalists and politicians were gathered together at Confederation Bu:Hding: to view the world p:renier of two films by McLeans Public Relations for the Provincial Government, one a travelogue entitled rather awkwardly 'Come Paint And Photograph Us~' Good Heavens! do you want to he the object of tourist curiosity, pointed fingers and clicking cnmeras? 11 This set the taxpayer back some fifty thousand dollars so the nNewfoundland He:rald 1 i says.

Sir, in case the honourable rnc..'n.bers on the other side do not believe everything they read in the 1'Newfoundland Herald 1 · how about the "Western Star? 11 Listen to this, Sir, "McLean did public relations ¼"Ork for the P.C 1 s in the last two provincial campaigns in Newfoundland and since the election has received several government contracts, including one to make a fifty thousand dollar colour promotion film on t.he Newfoundland fisheries.

It is controversial to those who believe it resembles closely, a situation that existed between the former - coincidental - between the former Liberal Government and the Toronto Firm of Martin r...oldfarb Associates. r.oldfarb in April of 1971 when the Liberals were in power conducted a survey into the province 1 s tourist industry while at the same time conducting an opinion poll for the Liberal Party. At that time Finance Hinister John C.Crosbie, then chief of the Liheral Reform Group in che legislature brought in a motion calling for a public enquiry into the incident. The motion by Mr.

Crosbie, seconded then by the Leader of the Opposition A.J.Murphy said the situation with Goldfard was at least a very serious impropriety B 11 HR. MURPHY: Ab&olutely~ 1'IB, NEARY: I have only five minutes, Mr. Speaker, that is a minute gone there in heckling from the honourable minister~ Order please! 0 Hr. Crosbie as well as other conservatives then in opposition said that it was obviouSly improper for the same firm. to be doing these 1106

February 28, 1973t Tape 378, Pa~e 5 -- apb two jobs at the sane time and said it was a definite conflict of interest. Then Mr. Crosbie came into the House here, Sir, and amended the Throne Speech and here is what he said, 1 that an cnauiry be instituted into the operations of Martin Goldfarb of Toronto with respect to work unde:rway for the Government of Newfoundland by his firm and reported political opinion polls underway in the province by Hartin Goldfarb for the Liberal Party of Newfoundland and any possible conflict of interest or impropriety thereby resulting~ rn What does Mr.

Crosbie say about that, Sir, on the 30th. of September 1972? Here is what he says when not the opposition, when the newspapers raise this J'fcLean scandal, here is whn t Hr. Croshie snid the :Minister of Finance'. when Mr. He.Lean -was the subject of debate in the Provincial Legislo.ture the past summer and that is back in May. Sir, Hay past. This ls 1973 now, we are talkinr about 1972. 1 'This -past summer Finance Minister John Crosbie dismissed the opposition comments as a lot of cuf f-hubble about nothing.'' About nothing, ¥r.

Speaker_-;, Look at the list, look at the list of things that HcLean is involved in with this governmenL If the honourable Premier wants me to send it over to him before he gets up and gives his rebuttal~I will be glad to do it. Now, Sir, I ;ust want to summarize the situation again. 0 Before I do I want to say, Nr.

Speaker, that last week I made a mistake and the mistnke I made, Sir, was and this was a mistake that was made in passing me the name of the gentleman that came up to the Premier's floor prior to the Throne Speech being read in this House .and prepared the statement that the Premier read on opening day in this House and probably the one that he is going to read this afternoon, the gentlernan 1 s name waa not Ed Coady~ Sir 1 it was Ed Swain. I hope ~o have that corrected for the sake of the record. Now, Sir, here are the facts. Number 0), Mr.

McLean is the public relation.a man for the Tory Party in Newfoundland, two provincial 1107

February 28~ 1973 1 Tape 378, Page 6 -- apb elections one federal election. Mr. McLean. Sir, is also the public relations firm representing Burns, Denton (What is the other name?) MR. W.N~.fl.uWE: Burns BrothLrs & Denton. HR. NEARY: Burns Brothers & Denton the f,overnment 1 s fiscal agents. I can tell you what the honourable Premier said about that. HR. MOORES: Are you reading from Hansard or - HR. NEARY: No, I am reading from n pa.per. The Premier says; he went to school with Messrs Burns, Denton or whoever they are, he went to school with them but he was only ten, they were sixteen but he was only ten. HR.

EVANS~ Wbere did you go to school? Now, ~r. Speaker, also Mr~ McLean represents -1108

February 28, 1973 Tape 379 IB-1 and Shaheen Natural Resources in the international world. H<'w can you seoarate the three international and national and provincial? He has represented the Linerboard Hill. He has done work for ERCO and, Sir, he is doing work in this province that is not in the public interest, work that is i..nferior. We hnve already proven that. The Minister of Education, former Minister of Education,tol<l us about that. He is charging inflated prices. He has receiver! work with no public tenders being called, Sir, oral contracts, no written contracts. These are facts, Mr, Speaker.

The Public Relations Firm and HACON which I understand is North American Communications, not Nutbeam nnd fompanv, have no credibility at nll in the nrovince, Sir. A firm wi.th no credibility have their hooks into these departments including Tourism, Fisheries - MR. gEAKEn: I do not like to interrupt the honourable minister but his five minutes is up and he has spoken the limit. MR, ROBERTS: I hep: leave ,if the rn.emher could be alloved a minute or two to draw his remarks to a close. That is a common courtesy that has been extended manv times. It does require leave, if i.t is to he granted. HON.

FRANK "MOORF!-<: (PREMIER): Mr. Speaker, we onlv nppose it for one reason that the honourahle member does have the opportunity to speak twice on this hill which nohody else does'-in cluing up the debate on the bill, and I am sure that in his verbositv he can take hi.R hollr and n half then rather than take tt on an extended leave now, 1,m. P!;;ARY: He gave us one minute to wind up and I wind up my case. HP. SPEAKER: Does the honourable member from Bell Island have leave? HON. FRANK MOORES: (PREMIER): Yes. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, I started to say that the firm has no credibility in the province.

They have their hooks into n number of departments including Tourism, Fisheries, Highways, f,ducation. Social Services, Health, Mines and Resources. The facts speak for themselves, Nr. Sneaker, and it is also interesting to note here the turnover of 1109

February 28, 197 3 Tane 379 IB-2 staff with this firm. Newfoundlanders have 11 stnmg stomach. Sir,f\ut when thev have seen the -inside of this cr>mr,;rnv thev have had to lenve. Their honesty forces them to flU"ite. I ttwrefore feel, Mr, Speaker, that H is necessarv to nronose this re::n1ution Phich will T hope clear up matters. If the ~,fcLe,rn Drr,nnizatfon 'is the obiect of unfnir suspicion, it would be. Cleared. Sir.

If nn the ott1er hand it is in truth fl1>PcinJ:! our -Public Traasurv and our privnte enterprise,thi,c: fact Pill hf' hrnught out in all its sordid ugliness, Sir,,md this economic , anccr removed with surp;ical -precirdnn iwmediatelv the truth :is Vnovrn. Hr~ Speaker, I &71 placing this resolution before the Pnuse of t'\sseml 0 lv and I am askinr for its sunnort,rm hoth sides nf the J-Jnnse hv hnnnurai·,J e members. fRl\NK .!_'TORES: (PRENIER): Mr. Speaker. Vf' have heard lnst We'1nesday and aF,ain tod;:i.y something in excess of a ninetv minute ;-iccusntion +,ased on innuendo. bnsed on no facts.

Pather than introduce the resolution and wait unti.l the government presented the facts - and thev 'W111 all he uresented - before making comment. the honourahle mernher from Bell Island saw fit to do a great mnnv things whtch 1 wi J1 t<iJ k about first before referring to Mr. McLean and his companies nnd hefore a11 the ministers who h11ve jnvolvement with 0r. -Pctean and his comnnnies sr,eak as well. ~rr.

Spenker, unl 1 ke the previous administration .which I am sure the hDnnurnh]e memher does not realize. this government td 11 re] av the focts tn the House and not go on rumor and impression cre.-ite<l by the mind of one individual. ~r. Sneaker, I have never heard such partisan nnnp,,;mse in my 1ife as T have heard today throutzh innuendo and directly. V<! have heard the member from Rell Island last week and today attack not _iust !,fr. HcLean in fact hut attack the repute of the government nnd because of his petty minded, f)arochial attitude~attack this provincP itself.

He would not sit down and wait for the facts to he nresented, .1110

February 28. 1973 Tape 379 IB-3 he had to make his political noints. Nr. Speaker~ the assassination of personal i.ttes seems to be a way of life that has heen created by certain voliticians in this province. Personalities are the issues, not the issues themselves. Mr. Speaker, people like this are more to he pitied in the future of our province than blamed. We have heard durin~ this sueech,and 1 wi11 refer to some of the noints the memhPr for Hell Is1 nnd hrought ur,. the word caroethaggers, "-'r. Mel.Pan is n car11cthagp:0r. ftmnv thinr; th.it Mr.

McLean came here nnd I will h.'.l.ve n rew quotes in that rcrnrcl in ;i m'nutc. Ue will ritrn1 i fy the work he has done :md d1cn we are tbrour,h the r,e0n1e 0f this province vi11 know that we have had work nerformed for monev r,.aid which is a great deal different than were ,;ome of the Public Relations Firms we have hnd in the past. "kLean is a Canadian comnany hut the honourable memher for "Rel] Ts1,md says that he is a carnethagf,!er because he moves from one orovince to another.

Would the honourable member from Bell Ts1nml sav JOC verp carrethnrfi.ng hecrmse thev were in Newfoundland, Shnheen Natural Pe.c;ources, Wabush Hines and all these neop1e~carretbagging? Th~ honournhle memher from White Bay South savs vef'>. Is that correct? You sav thev are carpetbaggers? You would, Sir. Having said th:H, ur.

Speaker, they are cnrpetbapJ;ers and 1.n the terms that his honourable cvJlengue descrihed them, they were not comrlimentnry, I am r;la({ the hnnourahle memher from 'Phite Bav South does not think we should do away with all thE' comnnnies tlrnt nre located in Newfoundland vho hrmnen to hnve head offices outside of the province. This nnrticuJnr carnethag.~H":r is located, Hr. Speaker, if you care to call him that,Phich he is not, is Jocated in St. John's employing all neon]e who live in thi~ '1rov-ince. all that work with them. I vill he J.!oinr: through the detn.i1 nf that a Jittlf'. later.

Durtnp: the reference to the honourable memher's sneech, the 1111

February 28 1 1973 Tape 379 rn - 4 detail on the booklet will be dealt with by the Minister of Tourism, on what happened on that particular occasion. The member asked during his remarks, 11 Did ~-1r. ficLean write a letter askin/4 for work with the government?" The answer is. Mr. Speaker, I do not recall but he dirl get a lot of work from the govern-rnent. I will show you and this honourable House th.flt he dJd a r,ood job after getting that work. Hr. McLean's reputation and the reputation of his companies were irnpur,ned by the member for Be11 1s.1anr1 by remarks, Hr.

Spenker, that he would not make outside this House> but will only make in 'it. If any member or anyone has an accusation and is too gutless to repeat it when the man who is being dist-ussed is involved, then he should not :make the remark in or outside this House, H.e waves a niece of paper that our information from Toronto says a. b and c. Does he say who this information came frof'l? ,fo. ?robnbly Goldfarb? The fiscal agents. Hr. Speaker, Burns Brothers & Denton.

I will have much nleasure in dealing with later in reference to a nast public relations firm emploved hv this province nnd whom they representer!. as well as how lonp: Mr. NcLean 1 s associntion has been with that company as opposed to being appointed after a new govern.~ent have been elected. Talking about patronage, I will deal entirely with it in a few moments. Sir. PromOtional tour I will deal with in a few moments as well. He brought up the matter of Hr. McLean, in the lobby of this building, as responsible for the draw for hunting and fishing licenses, that he was the one that set up this whole bit. Mr.

Speaker. that statement is untrue. It will be commented on later by the Minister of Industrial Development. Mr. Speaker, he will speak ar,ain I am sure but not now. Mr. Speaker, neither did he pump out the propaganda nor set up the draw because if a hunting licence had been set up there would have been one other animal added and it was not. I am sure Hr. McLean would have arranged that. t112

Fehrun.rv 2R, 1973 Tane 379 '·'r. Sneaker, the cost of the filn for tourism will he dealt with later rluri.n?: my remark,:;. There ts one thin!"' that T would like tn s;w that during the honournh 1 e meril-er 's remark<:: IB-5 1113

Fehruary 28, 1973i Tape 380, Page 1 -- apb he made a distinction to the fact that the script had not been prepared nor the oration nrorH:rlv done. He did not know it was paid for by !-~cLean. The one thing that he rlid not recov_nize, }lr. Speaker, the one thing that should he recognized is that in that imputation he took another Newfoundlander by the name of Chris Pratt who :is one of our most dlntingu:ished Newfoum:Hande.rs on ability in his fit>ld and through his condemnation~ conder;med a man who Newfoundland is proud of and certa:i.nly not hy the honourable rnenher' s reP1arks, ashamed of. Hr.

Speaker, this sort of innuendo is a dis;zrace. He talks about 'kick backs to. by innuendo agnin, to possibly members of this House and 1 would sayt }tr. Speal:er, that i£ any kick backs had ever come to :me:rnber.s of this House he would he in a position to judp:e much better than we on this side who are newly here. Nr. Speaker, I do not think anyone in this honourable House 1 if we are ever going top.et the stif;Tl1a out of politics which we must do, 1 do not th:!.nk anyone on this side of the House or on the other side of the Housr arc anything but honourable men.

How iJ11nortant is that that ..;-e arr, honourable men? Because, the day that anv of us hecome dishonest is the> day that we have let down our whole svstem and what we rev-resent. Or for nnyone. even by innuendo. Hr. Sneaker. to sugpest it is wronf. We hn.ve the i1onm1rnhle member from Dell Island becoming puzzled as he said durin? his remarks. He said: ''The ministers are allowed to make dee.is ions.' I will ouote in a moment. 1 can understand why that was puzzH.nR: to the men;ber, !-fr. Speaker, hecausc I am sure when he was minister under the previous Premier he was not allowed to make any.

The mnn - I am sorry, l<fr. Speaker, the honourable yentleman roes through this in great detail. The fact that the departments should be allowed to act upon their own and I will ouotP from Hansard of last week, quote; the honourable member from Bell Island, Mr. Neary, as it is quoted in Hansard; 'I think" (and that Mr. Spe:iker, is

February 28, 1973, Tape 380, Page 2 -- apb debatable) he said; u that the government as such is not doing business with HcLean it is only departments~ It is only the departments that are doin? husiness with, individual departments, individual ministers not the rovernment.ii "Mr. Speaker, I know the honourable Premier does not know very much about government. JI' (But if I could diverse for a moment~ Mr. Speaker, I think we know something about forming one which the honourable member did not. "But, Sir,(as I carry on) nhow can you separate the two? Are they all separate corporations going their own wny?

I say• they are not.

Sir, the !reulier is responsible for every action of one of these ministers or one of these departments,,, and here again, Hr* Speaker, I would like to diverse my comments Dy saying yes, that is absolutely correct, because I have competent ministers in charge of their departments so I have every confidence in them* Then he goes on to say that he -"he brushes it off by saying; 'No, no. no they are not doing business with the government as such, they are doing business with individual government departments and ministers.' Sir, 'and I have spent days and days trying to fi;wre that one out I know I have puzzled and I have been puzzled* 11 (Hr.

Speaker, this is fairly obvious) n since I came into politics in Newfoundland twelve or fifteen years ago. There are thinis that I am not able to understand, Sir, but I am not the stnartest. 11 Sir, I mean, these are fairly obvious statements that have been made by the honourable member for Bell Island, but they are also statements which take some clarification, because some people may not be sure if he is talking about the issue or if he had a personal axe to ~rind at that particular time. Mr.

Speaker, regarding the resolution itself, and this is really what I want to get to, certainly the remarks of the honourable member for Hell Island really do not deserve I do not think, any realistic or serious commentary. In the resolution I understand it to say that the present administration claimed that they would award contracts for 1115

February 28~ 1973, Tape 380 1 Page 3 -- apb the expenditure of public funds only after pu'blic tenders have been called and that contracts involved the expenditure of substantial sums etcet.er-n 1 without public tenders heing called. I suggest to the honourable member from Bell Island that he is saying that the work that M:r. HcLean has done in this province should be subjected to public tender. Is that correct? HR. MOORES: Right~ I would like, ~r.

Speaker, as the honourable member for Bell Island has acknowledged that this work should go to public tender to quor.c his leader to him if he has not been quoted to hy his leader before. HL Roberts, on page 3677 of Hansard last year; p 1 find it interesting that no bids were called nor have any bids been called. I do not find it unusuaL I suggest that it has been done all over Canada and will go on. It goes on in Ottawa.

When the Progressive Conservative Party formed the administration of the Government of Canada it happened, when the Liberal came back into the administration at Ottawa it happened again, it happens all the time~ 1 would not be the least surprised if Ronalds-Reynolds lost the contract next year. It does not surprise me nor does it surprise the honourable rentleman from St. John's East 1 I would submit. It is quite normal. It is quite. in hand. I do not find it curious and it tomes from an administration that has made such a fetish of no conflict of interest.Jl I will carry on just a little further, Hr.

Speaker. reizardin~ the quotes by the Leader of the Opposition which obviously one of his colleagues was not payin~ attention to at the time. All I want to establish I think (he thinks too) it has been well established in this debate this evening, as if the present administration, if there is guilt, if there is wrong, if there is bad, if they are as guilty, if they are as wrongt they are as bad as anyone else, they are just the same as the rest of us, that is all. That is all I am saying, that is all~ Then, ¥r.

Speaker, on page 3687, one unqualified no other statement surrounds it at all, one direct quote from the Leader of the 1116

February 28, 1973, Tape 380, Page 4 - apb Opposition; " I agree completely that you cannot call bids for films or advertising agencies." Mr. Speaker, I am sure the honourable Leader of the Opposition read this resolution before it came in. I am sure that he is competent of answerinf; it~ I will her very interested to find out what his answer is" I am sure that he has the ability to chante his m:inrl as has anybody else, but I am also sure that in this sort of position that this is very difficult to do. AN HON.

MEMBER: The honourable Premier said (remainder inaudible). ~!...:"~Q!)RES_:_ The honourable Premier said that they would call tenders on projects that were basicnlly - I have to quote here as well which I will be going through a little later by the way. Hr. Speaker, I think the reference that is made here is, 11 that any project that comes up in any deµartment that has McLean's services applied to, he is eligible to hid on it as others will he. 11 I think that is the quote. i1r. Speaker, I am t.alkini ahout specinl pro_iects and not pubU.c relations.

There is a very definitive difference as the Leader of the Opposition pointed out so ably last year. That is why, Mr. Speaker, it is impossible to call a bid on a film unless you take the creativity and the imagination and the ab:I li.ty of the firm to do it and that is why in all governments such bids arc placed in the hands of reputable public relations firms.

I will during the discourse. this afternoon of talking about Mr~ McLean and his companies, talk also about why we think they have done a µ:ood _iob, not just in comparison with what has been done in the past, but also, why they have done a good job for this government to date for the Province of Newfoundland. The minister who have been involved with Hr. McLean and his companies will be makin~ statements on their own, bringing before this House all the detailed dollars and cents and work done by a public relations firm. I might say, Mr.

Speaker, thn.t that is the first time in twenty-three years that that has been done. 1117

February 23, 1973, Tape 380, Page 5 -- apb ~r. Speaker, it is important to realize that we have talked to a number of companies regarding the patters of 3eneral rates and so otL We have in fact, had a number of our people investigate the rates of various companies and have always found as I will show you, that the 'P'cLean rates are highly competitive anrl in the p:reat majority of instances well below the rates of other competitive comrHmies.

One of the ma_ior factors in any company providing public relations service to a governm8nt 1 or to a nrivate industry, is its accessibility and its geographic closeness to the accounts it will serve. A lnrr,e Canadian public relations company, the 'HcLean p:roup 1118

February 28 1973 Tape 381 PK - l was a fim which was willin~ to come to Newfoundland and set up busineSs here employing Newfoundlanders. The McLean group that has come to Newfoundland to establish a local branch of their public relations firm and to establish a local branch of its film making company. Contrary to what the honourable member may say, Mr. Speaker, this has not been written by Mr. McLean. This is our oW"TI. information. However, McLean has some imput into it for the simple reason that we wanted some background which he supplied.

It was first established in HcLean Companies in Toronto six years ago as a proprietorship owned by George D. McLean and engaged in public relations activity. Prior to that time Mr. McLean had been a public relations director for the second largest advertising agency in Canada. Prior to that he was public relations for the third largest advestising agency in Canada~ Before joining these two large agencies in a public relations capacity,he was head of the public relations department for two smaller agencies.

Prior to that time hC had a distinguished career in communications field where he was staff reporter~photo~rapher or news director for 111fhe Buffalo Courier Express,n "The Toronto Daily Star," the Gannett Chain of newspapers, radio and television stations, radio CHBC in Niagara Falls. He was a news C&'neraman for WGRT in Buffalo and for CHCH television in Hamilton. He also acted as a special Canadian correspondent for the international news service and international news pictures were he won a number of awards for his news photography, Today Mr.

McLean's Company handles the public relations for a number of large Canadian companies and out of 200 or more public relations firms in Canada Hr. McLean's Company is in the top ten. I think it important that I also discuss a subsidiary company called NACOM Limited. It has been suggested that this company was established solely to handle production in Newfoundland~ However this company, Mr~ Speaker, which is a wholly owned 1119

February 28, 1973 Tape 381 PK ~ 2 m,1.bsidiary of the McLean Orgainzation was incorporated in Toronto on March 3, 1966. In fact it vas incorporated before the Holdings Limited Company was incorporated which is apparent of both the public relations and film and slide produc,ti.on group. This company was incorporated on October 29 1 1969 and before that it operated as a proprietorship. We heard a great deal about this NACOM Company and their inability to produce good quality product?by the honourable: member for Bell Island.

NACOH Limited is not new to film making as it had a comd.clerable record of film production prior to a branch beinr established here in our province. In fact three years ago this corporation was judged to be a recognized film producer in Canada,by the Government of Canada, the Liberal Government of Canatla.1 the Department of Nation,:1.l Revenue, Customs and Excise when they were granted the right to use a special

section of the Customs Act which allows film producers and film producers only to import film making equipment at a reduced rate of duty. I might say that I am advised thltt before permission is granted by the, federal government to use this category,an extensive investigation is conducted by the customs department and the request goes before a board who will rule on wheuher or not the company is actually in film production and has a sufficient record of film productions to justify this special customs category. I stress that this was granted to NAMCO Limited three years ago, ¥r.

Speaker, I run sure while the member for Bell Island may think that this company does inferior work, I am delighted that its federal counterparts in Ottawa and the Department of Customs do not feel the same way. l think another important factor which should be brought out is the fact that the combined staff of NACOM Limited and the McLean group within the province number seven full-time local residents and that , much of the production work is done within the province, bringing in for the first time this type of industry into Newfoundland.

This may seem like a very small business but it should be realized that within the Province of 1120

February 28. 1973~ Tape 381 Newfoundland this year this company now has a payroll of $69~600 per year or an average of $10,000 per employee. PK -3 In addition to this payroll this company would have spent within the last calendar year $104,000 in the province. This means a total imput into the Newfoundland economy of $173,000 a year, which under the previous government was spent entirely, Hr. Speaker, outside of the province. As an example~ this company hires to a great extent local announcers from the local radio stations to announce their commercials.

Some of them are recorded by announcers on the mainland but the majority of them by local people~ And other local people are involved in the processing of film and the sales to them of film and equipment of all kinds, leasehold improvement. office equipment etc. McLean therefore is an experienced organization with considerable expertise in the area. They are operating locally and have located locally and are keeping a great deal of the money they receive within the province.

Specific government departments require specific help with programmes in the area of public relations so that they can explain what services etc. are available to the general public and so they can help to educate the ~ublic as to how best to use these services, Mr, Speaker, if there were any one area where the previous government had been at fault, for that matter the Government of Canada, irrespective of which party happened to form that government, it was the inability of governments to pass on programmes to the people of the province.

Programmes could be drawn up, programmes that were worthwhile to the people but these programmes were never, the information regarding how people could take advantage of these programmes were not really very well done by government. Through the use of this organization through the projection for the various departments I will try and explain as I go through where this ~snow being done. 1121

February 28, 1973 Tape 381 The l'kLean Group and NACOM Limited are providing n service for the r::overnment and therefore nroviding a service for the people. They .are being paid hy the people of this province. There is no mistake about that. Mr. Speaker, whenever anyone is paid through a govern.'!l.ent source they are paid by the people, It: is imperative therefore that tf they are to carry ont this servicfc then they must do it at ccnpetitive prices and at prices that guarantee the people of the province the f'est value for dollars spent.

To this end the government have carefully investigated all of thei.r prices and are fullv satisfied that their prices nre not just competitive hut are nore hig:hly competitive than prices charged Ily other organization throughout Canada for the sa.--:i.e services provided. I hnve comparative fi1;ures here. In fact their charges are in almost every case considerahly heluw uhat is considered the normal charge for such service. Hr. Speaker 1 I would like to give you some examples of the prices compared to other prices availahle.

When thev were refpd rPd to produce one large fisheries film and two instructional fisheries films,the Minister of Fisheries had a menher of government very knouledgenble in the film production field investigate cost of production of a m.m1her of Canadian film producers, Unknot.;'TI to Ne Lean jof's were costed independently an average minirrnll71 for the three films was prepared and submitted to the Minister of Fisheries. The average minimum charge, Hr.

Speaker, not all the charges, but the minimums that were received were $94,000, HcLean 1 s quote,independently of any of the others,was !.92 ,000, plus copies of the sarne film. For the production of the main tour:Lst film which has come in for much criticism bv the honmtrnhL<> mttmber for Hell Island~ McLean's quote was $36,000. A si,;1ilar tourist film producPd by the Province of Ontario ran $56,000 and a sinilar tourist film produce.cl hy the Government of Alberta ran $48,000. A similar tourist film produced by the Government of British Columhia rnn $52,00D.

A s:inilnr fi]m produced for one of the tourist areas in flntarJo nm for 811P,!lOn. A similar film produced for the Province of Ouehec. ran ~51.000. 1122

February 28, 1973 Tape 381 PK - 5 All of these prices are for the initial production of the film and in.rm way do they include the cost of the prints which are so necessary. Now, Mr.

Speaker, in this regard, I will be going through it again,. here we have an accusation first of all that this film was too costly when in fact it was several thousand dollars less than any other province has paid for a tourist film of the same type~ We also have had comments as to the title and the content of the film which I am sure will be dealt with by the Minister of Tourism when he speaks and which I will be referring to in a few moment. All these accusations were made, Mr.

Speaker, before any of the facts were made available* The cost of the film was $36,000, not some irnaginery figure that the honourable member for Bell Island 1123

February 28, 1973 Tape 382 TB~ 1 just brought up, For the production of three driver education f:Hms and companion one minute television educational comnericals, :'JACON Limited quoted a price of $36 1 000 each. Two of these films dealt wit'h specific weather conditions which are inherent to this province and require camera.i1.:n1 to stand by to avail of good weather conditions when nature decides what and when such conditions will occur. Ilased on the production of the three similar filtns, depending on weather, for the federal government, cost comparing is very favourable.

The federal government films .:ere produced at a cost of $61,00D each, Mr. Speaker, Incident.ally, on the highways films none of the safety organ:izutlons nor motorcar companies nor any other similar groups have attempted to cover weather, because of the cost factor. However, we have looked ,rnd are looking at these reasonable quotes from the McLean group and then we dec:Lded we would proceed in this nrea because -seather is such an important factor to drivers in this province. We came into a lot of criticism about reflectorizerl plates when the Safety Council of Canada, in fact, Hr.

Speaker, 1u1.ys that an educational film on television is worth so nuch more in the safety context than this particular item that caused so r;mch controversy at the time. To deal for a moment: with the question of tendering on films: It is i.mportant to realize that you are buy:i.ng the expertise of producing the films. the mechanical know-how of taking the pictures, editing them, putting them together with sound, music etc. but more than anything else you are buying the creative ability of the film maker. At times straight forward films are put on tender but this is the exception to the rule.

Large corporations such as the International Nickel Company, Canada Packers - by the way to which Hr. He.Lean is the public relations firm - and I am sure the honourable. member for Bell Island will want to attack Canada Packers as well. General Motors, Ford, Alumim.ffi1: Company of Canada or F..alconhridge discuss a film idea with a film maker were they feel 1124

February 28, 1973 Tape No. 382 rn - 2 that it can serve the need of what they want to project. It is a joint creative effort where both the film maker and the customer must be compatible. It is not a situation which lends itself in any way to tendering unless you hire a film maker and then hire on top of it producers which you put on your staff or hire independently to direct the type of creativity you want.

It is when the independent producers are employed or when there is a large staff of productive people within the government or a company that tendering may be practical. !t naturally greatly increases the cost and this is why, to serve our purposes, an organization which best combines both services but also charges less is by far the best for our needs in this ~overnment. Mr. Speaker, I would like to talk about the public relations area. The McLean group has been retained during this year to carry on public relations activity for two departments of government in particular.

Later in the year they were employed to do a small job for a third department and details of these activities, as I said, will be made available through the ministers themselves. First, however, let me say in the area of tourist promotion the companies efforts have been unequaled and lvwe been a very important factor in the considerable growth shown in the tourist business in the province during the last year. I am sure it will be an even greater factor in another major increase in the tourist business during the coming year.

For efforts in the tourist area the company had been paid $7,000 per month, not as a fee but as a total budget. This has covered all of the activities that they have carried out, all of their expenses, when outlined by the Minister of Tourism later on, I am sure all members of the House will agree that we have gotten very great value indeed for the money spent.

This organization has a great ·feel for the tourist business and I feel now that they have a great knowledge of our province, This organization has an unequalled mechanical knowledge of how to attain publicity, how to not just promote tourism throur,h the press but how to reach through to our wholesalers, the officials of travel organizations, the various oil companies, how to work in co-operation with the 1125

February 28, 1973 Tape 382 rn-J al rl ines, bus c:mn-;:,anies, connani.es 0p0rati ng cruises, shins and how to bring it n.11 together for the greater henefit of the tourist industry of our province. $7,000 n month or S8!r ,OGG for the year spent in this activity has brought to our province many hundreds of thousands of dollnrs in increased tourist business and I nm sure over the next veurs will bring the province many million:, of dollars in tourist: revenue~ Mr.

Speaker, just nut of curiosity 1 if any members of the opposition would like sooe samples of the tyne of newspaper articles we are getting written.here ue have ne;wspupcr articles from vnrious papers all across Canada about fishing and hunt1nfC in thin nrovincc 1 wtdch were written by peon le who were broupht in hv the HcLean groun, at the f'lcLeun group 1 .s expense,un<ler this particulnr who went back, wrote the articles that were most favourable to our province. articles tlrnt would in fact have cost us a great deal of money ·if thev had to be pt:dd for in the way of advertising or what have you.

That I will also he denHng "Fith n little later. Vfr. Sneaker 1 the nn.me of I tourism." is 11 promotion" anrl this must he considered~ We haven ~reat orovince but wemust sell it to those who do not know ahout iL We have a lot to offer the tourist but unless the messar:e is carried to them the tourist will not come. Tn the historv of Newfoundland, in the history of the tourist oromotion in other nrovinces in Canad.a,no organization has been more successfull than the ~cLean ~roup. I am sure np organization has been able to show any greater increase :!.n the tou:ds t ind us try.

He investitrnted other puhlic relations firms for this activity and we were advised by a numher of rieople in the comrnunications field_, including larp;e ndvert:isin.r:: aisenc:tes and large tourist onerators as well ns the officals tn the tourist department of the federal government and a mmibe.r of provincial governments, that we would receive the greatest dollar value from the McLean group because of their expertise in this 1126

Fehruary 28, 1973 Tape 382 IB-4 particular area. It is not known in this province but because of the McLean 1 s group expertise,they have been hired~ Mr. Speaker, by a great many people other thnn the C--overnment of Newfoundland. We have heard the opposition say that this is a particular group that has been setup particularily to serve Newfoundland as a political pay off. Mr.

Speaker, nothing could be further from the truth because when we are finished we will find that vr. 'P'cLean and his comnanies deal with a great many more people than neonle who. have interest in Newfoundland or who are in the Province of Nev1foundland.

As an examnle: t4ctean 1 s group expertees were hired and have heen and are by the rovernment of Israel for major nromotion in the United States; by the r-0vernment of Tiaw;m for a major promotion through­ out North /\mericn; hy the Government of Hong Kon~ for the production of tourist material; bv Holiday Inns International for a snecial oromotional pro~ramme for all their Carribean property; hv several hotel chains for the nromotion of their hotel services and are engaged now in nn extensive survey regarding tourist promotion in Indonesia9 Mr. Speaker, Newfoundland are not the saviours for the McLean group.

Cbntrarv to any information rny honourable friend may have had. the VcLean g:roun have shown their expertise internattonally and with a great many major companies in Canada as I mentioned a few moments ago, Canada Packers being one. For the Denart~ent of Fisheries,the ~ublic relations programme has been carried out this year.

When it was found that because of the c.hnnp-es in the denartment the group could not be as extensive as first visualized. the McLean group immediately modified the programme to fit the immediate needs of the department.Although they had a contract they agreed voluntarily to reduce the fee proportionately. I might point out, ~r. Speaker. that when the contract was drawn up I was l..finister of Fisheries and when it was reduced Hr. Cheeseman, the present Finistet' of Fisheries ,as the honourable member for Hermitage; 1127

February 28, 1973 Tape 382 IB-5 was the Minister of Fisheries which probably puts uc more on the hook than he is. I would ulso like to discuss the industrial year book which is being produced. Industrial vear book, Mr. Sneaker, the !'!cLeo.n group is producing it at no cost to the government. This book when printed will be sent to industrial organizations in Canada, the United States and Europe as well as members of these ftnnncial r:or.mnmities :m.d many other businessmen in the provtnce.

The hook has been designed to assist in the promotion of industr.ial development wi.th.in tlrn nrovince nnd to provide. facts on the goverm:nent assistance prngrnmne." They nrc available eo well on the industries which are now located and ope.rating within the province. It will also deal uith induatrv which although not located in the province, service it. The ctrnt brenkdovn of this book in as follows: Expected advertising revenue, $40,000~ Cost of printing with taxes, $11,DOO. Art work nnd lay out, $2,000 Advertis:Lng sales;planninp: ads, ad. lay out etc., $12,000. Distribution, $11,000.

Writing (the only direct charge by the McLean group by the way, Mr. Speaker), $2,000 for a total of $38,000. This comes to a total cost of $38,000 leaving $2,000 as a reserve charge for miscellaneous charges or expenses. The book is important to the province. It is important to the industries which are located here and which are considering locating here. It is not a profit making venture by HcLean,as the honourable member for Bell Island would have you believe.

It is an undertaking which assists the province without heing nt any direct cost to the province. 'The printing is being done by a local provincial printer and the distribution will be done by local people 1128

February 28, 1973 Tape 383 ,m - 1 writin~ in the hook itself. The costs therefore ?re easily checked and there can be no question in anyone's mind that this is a service of HcT.ean1 s Public Relations as opposed to a giant money making scheme. Myself and the Hinister of Economic Development wrote a letter asking ndvertisers to support this programn1e because it has been published through our support. The advertising was negotiated by a local firm having no connection with McLean's.

This is one example of where this organization has tried to be of real service to the govern.~ent at no cost other than sufficient to pay for the writing layout and supervision of the book. It is an important service and not a giant money making scheme as we have been led to believe. The McLean group and George McLean in particular have been very strongly and very unfairly attacked. Here is a man and an organization who are providing a considerable service to this province. Mr. Mc.Lean did carry on public relations activities for the P .C. ,Party during the last election and, Mr.

Speaker, I might say he did them very well. Frankly it demonstrated his ability and the ability of his organization. I see no logic in the suggestion that because he provided a service in this area he should be excluded from government business. We have a man who is recor,nized not just by some people in Newfoundland, not just by Canadians but internationally as an expert in the field of public relations and film production. We have an organization that is charging lower rates to the government than the rates of comparable companies.

So what we have is unparalleled expertise coupled with the lowest possible cost and at the same tine an organization willinP, to spend many of the dollars earned here within the province itself. It is totally illogical to suggest that there is any mystery surrounding the activities of the organization or any question that the government is following the best course by employing the McLean group 1129

February 28, 1973 Tape 383 na long as their rates rerr.nin competitive and their service i.s at the st:andanl that it is at present. It has been suggested, as I mentioned earlier, that ue have crn::petbag:ging in the province, Let us look at the investment in the province to date by the He.term group, Mr. Speaker. The HrLean group has invested approximately $65.GOO in estnblishinp; fadl:itics within the prov:tnce. This does not include stuff but onlv eiruipmcnt for the development of film} production business etc. I asked Mr. McLean for these figures and they rn:c incorporated here.

Office equipment and supplies, all these things bought locally $6 ,DOD: pro_ie.ctorn and spccizl office equipment $6,500: filming .nnd editing equipncmt $3,000: cnmeras $26,000 which were bought from outside but through n local agent: lip:hts $2,500: transportation $8,500; dark room labratocy $6,000; speciaJ leasehold inprovement, for office and labratory $7 ~000; slhle projectors tmd sound equipment $2,000: for a tot.al of $67,500. In nddition as a :result of the business generated by the Newfoundland off:Lce ;the Toronto branches hud to acquire the ser-tices of two new film directors.

As well thousands of dollars worth of additional equipment including timers and all these tedmical things were put in at a total coat of $85,100. Now, }:fr. Spe'aker, here is a relations firm that has the first public nf its own volition established he.re in N,,w!'o,1mll1m,J, relations fi.rm ever that we hnve had in this province who has done that. Thcv have came here and preformed a job as will be detailed in this debate showing where dollars have been spent and value received.

We have aLso heard the ·words. 11 conflict of interest, n as we.11, I would now lH-e to review just n few of those firms where there is supposed to be a c.onfllct of interest and a few of the issues that have been raised hy the opposition. In the first place there is no conflict of interest whatsoever in the type of activities !fr. McLean carries 01!1': 1130 JM - 2

February 28, 1973 Tape 383 JM - 3 for the government or his other clients: nor is there any conflict of interest between the fact that he is doing work for the P.C. Party and is also doing work for the govern.~ent. I am sure the hon. Leader of the Opposition would, Mr. Speaker 1 be the last person in this House to suggest that if the liberals aiain ever attained power in the province they would refuse to deal with anyone who had worked for them in their election campaign.

It is ridiculous to even suggest that a person who has worked for a political party should in any way be excluded from doing business with government. Mr. Speaker, it is so ridiculous as to be untrue because in the two party system we have here.if the people were only allowed to work for the party they supported it would mean that virtually nearly fifty per cent of our people would have to wait four years before they could get a job a~ain. It is so ridiculous as to be unbelievable even to make such an accusation.

We all realize that politics is part of our democratic system and that you cannot penalize people for taking oart in the democratic process~ They were penalized enough in the past in that regard? Mr. Speaker, and it is not our intention to do it in the future. Therefore obviously there can be no criticism of McLean doing business wit~ the govern.~ent just because he has also taken

part in politics. The fact that Mr. McLean acts for accounts which have or might do business with the Newfoundland Government has been called by the opposition a conflict of interest and it has even been suggested that because Mr. McLean acts for the fiscal agent of the government,this constitutes a conflict of interest. First let me point out, Mr. Speaker, that a conflict of interest in this case is ridiculous. If Mr. McLean or his firm acted for the P.C. Party and the Liberal Party or acted for General Motors or Ford or if he acted for Swift or Canada Packers which he does, does this mean to say 1131

February 28, 1973 Tape 383 that tOat company cannot do business with the government through its institutions and so on? To even discuss it is totallv and absolutely ridiculous. The opposition are not clear in their terminology. V.Jhat T ru.1y they may he sug;rn,sting is that because Mr. McLean acts for the governuent and private industry he might exercise undue influence on the government on behalf of his commercial accounts and if he did then this is in truth wrong for, Mr. Speaker, he has not.

I know of and I have canvassed my ministers carefully and they know of no instance where he has acted on behalf of private industry in negotiations with this government. Furthermore it ls verv interestinf' to me to see the opposition who for many years employed ~1acLarcn 1 s Advertisin~ Agency of Toronto to do their work.to comnlain about a conflict of interest or any other undue influence. In th0 national list of advertisers last year MacLaren's Advertising who did the previous p:overnment's business in this regard listed as .sone of their accounts the Governm.ent of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Canadian JM - 4 Travel Bureau, the Department of Northern Affairs and Natural Resources in Ottawa, the Bank of Nova Scotia, the Bank of Canada and not to be outdone. La Banque Provincial du Canada. lut, Mr. Speaker. they also list 1 amazing. most coincidental, A.E. Ames and Company the fiscal agents for the time for the Government of Newfoundland. We have heard a lot of chaw on the other side regarding representing the fiscal agents of a province. MR. Rmm(H.N.): Two wrongs make a right. MR.

MOORES: No but the difference is this, for the member for White Bay South the difference was this that Burns Brothers and Denton were employed by Mr. McLean six years before the P.C. Party were the Government of Newfoundland, A.E.Ames became the account of MacLaren's when the Liberal Party was elected in Newfoundland. There is a large difference. 1132

February 28, 1973 Tape 383 JM - 5 Mr. Speaker. But also the list goes on to include the Brewers Association of Canada which negotiates directly with all provincial ~overnments including Newfoundland re the sale of beer by the government and to come even closer to home,of course, it lists Holson 1 s Brewery and !1"ewfoundland Brewery a,';1.ong their accounts. This company also lists a liquor distillery selling liquor through the Governoent of Newfoundland's liquor outlets, Imperial Oil doing husiness in this province and, Mr. Speaker, it also lists as one of its accounts the Liberal Federation of Canada.

It was never suggested that they should resign their accounts or resign the ~overnrnent account because of conflict. No, Mr. Speaker, this was not rlone because they knew that such a demand would be unfair, unreasonable anrl unnecessary. For the member for White Ray South and his comments, what I am saying is that it is not wrong for these people to have represented these accounts.

It is not at all wrong because they are ~enuine accounts and as long as they do not reflect or have influence .as they operate within government itself, of course it is not a conflict of interest whether it be for HncLaren's or anybody else. But, Mr. Speaker, let us look further. Let us look at the agency that succeeded MacLaren I s as the agency for the Goverrnnent of Newfoundland,Ronald Reynolds.

Here is an agency that has listed among its accounts once again the Government of Newfoundland, the Federal Government, the Department of Trade and Commerce and we go on with a great many and list the many that do business in this province. Mr. Speaker, there was no cry of conflict of interest when they were appointed but here is another agency with a winery which controls.a 1133

February 28, 1973 Tape 384 PK - 1 m'a:ritime winery doing business in the province with a traffic aervice involved with the government and a cement company selling to the government. Mr. Speaker, let us look a little further, let us look ut one of the agencies which they handle for the Department of Labour for the Federal Government and the largest account of the Government of Nova Scotia. the Department of TouriSlll.

Goodis, L.:Oldberg and Sor£n aa well as these government accounts they hnndle the account for Hiram Walker a liquor company which does a great deal of business with the Province of Nova Scotia liquors control~ The Mercantile Bank very closely involved in many deals concerning the provincial government, The Family Planning Federation which gets federal and provincial assistance~ EPA which is greatly involved with the federal government Departnent of Transnortatmon. Again.

Mr~ Speaker, no conflict of interest has been suggested nor shown because very simply if one has to pick a public relations firm or advertising agency or a film maker that did not number among their clients people who dealt with the federal or provincial governments you would have no advertising agency nor any public relations firm whatsoever~ It is only natural, Hr. Speaker, that anyone in that business is bound to have accounts doing business with other clients as long as they do not use one to take advantage of the other, in the case of governments there is not a conflict of interest. Mr.

Speaker, the former Liberal Govern,.•cH:mt took no action in this regard because they knew it was impossibleb They took no action in this regard because they knew that they could not find a ebmpany to provide the service they required which did not also act for industries involved with the provinical government. The federal government knows the ea."!le thing ns do the other provincial govern,~ent of Canada. There is not one provincial government in Canada, Hr. Speaker, who does not have aec:nunts located within their province and who also acts for the government the province~ .1134

February 28~ 1973 Tape 384 PK - 2 Mr. Speaker, I would like to deal spec1r1ca1,1y with the activities of the McLean group of companies~ They act for Bruns Brothers and Denton and have for the past five years~ sorry I said six years earlier, five years handled this public relations from their Toronto office. Now, Mr. Speaker, this is very important because if you talk to Hctarens they will tell you that different people are involved in the accounts and therefore different tmits make up the operation of their organization. This is true of the McLean group who have over thirty employees~ I would further suggest, Mr.

Speaker, it is an advantage to the government to have a fiscal agent public relntions firm knowledgeable the governments objective and proble~~. No two organizations haven more common interest and a more common set of objectives than the government and its fiscal agent. The He.Lean group does act again from its Toronto office for Shaheen Natural Resources but because this company is very closely involved with the Government of Newfoundland, to the construction of the various refineries at Come by Chance, Mr. McLean has on no occasion since he has been in this province tried to promote Mr. Shaheen.

As for yesterday 1 s announcement I a~ sure the honourable member for Bell Island will realize that was not necessary~ MR. NEARY: What about the trio to Ca.Pe Kennedy, who arranged that? MR. MpORES: The trip to Cape Kennedy was arranged, it was a question from the other side, Mr. Speaker, by the honourable member. The trip to Cape Kennedy was arranged through an invitation from the United States Government. We accepted iL I assmne Mr. Shaheen made the arrangement he was there and that was the beginning of the second oil refinery at Come by Chance. I am sure, Mr.

Speaker, that our honourable friend for Bell Island who has a problem with speaking too much has gotten confused with achievement as opposed to patronage which I am sure he got as an honourary senator of Lousianna during his last trip to New Orleans. Mr. Speaker, the McLean group (Rossie Barbour is one too, yes). also acts from its Toronto and Newfoundland offices for National Sea Products. Limited. Before accepting this account, Mr. He.Lean discussed 1135

February 28, 1973 Tape 334 PK - 3 it with me. He both agreed that there was no conflict in anyway. Hr. McLean assured me that he nor any of his employees would in anyway be involved in any relationships with the government departments for this organization. This 1 Hr. Spcakeri is exactly what has happened. I am infomed that they carry on a public relations progra?.me for National Sen Products, do press releases for them~ assist them in the marketing of fiah and fish products.

But again they have never made any representation to any member of this government on their behalf or in fact to my knowledge and the knowledge of my cabinet colleagues have never discussed the company in anyway with any member of thin government~ Mr. McLean was also public relations man for ERCO for many years way before th:Ls government came into office. Once again upon discussing with me I suggested to Mr. McLean a month or so ago that I thought his interest in ERCO as a public relations man would have a very direct conflict of interest in this province.

With the problems that have arisen at ERCO there is no way, if he was doing his job properly that he could represent that company and represent the governrr~nt at the same time because there would be a genuine conflict of interest. Mr. McLean has resigned as the public relations firm for ERCO and it was done for that reason. Mr. Speaker, McLean 1 .s is carrying on a public relations programme in the sa~e way as to add other advertising agencies, public relations companies and film m,1kers of Canada. I might say from my own personal experience with Mr.

Mc.Lean it is very careful to refrain from disussing with any govermnent member, any of his private accounts, their activities or :relations with this government. It is inconceivable that the accounts and actions of Mr. McLean could be questioned when for approximatley twenty years the former Liberal Government dealt with the company which acted for the govern.e'lltmt, also acted for ccrmmerical accounts that had relations with the government. It is inconceivable that any conflict of interest should be suggested concerning McLean when he has been so careful not to 1136

February 28, 1973 Tape 384 even discuss commerical business with those in my government. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. MOORES: No I am sure the opposition members, Hr. Speaker, from their remarks find it very unusual that to deal with people who could be honourable in a field vhere there could be a rake off involved. But I am sure also that with the change in government they were equally surprised. AN HON. MEtIBER~ Inaudible. MR. MOORES: Which one was which? AN HON. MEMBER: The dragon was destroyed in March. MR. MOORES: The dragon was destroyed in March. That is just about it.

I would like to make one other comparsion, Mr. Speaker, last year the former Liberal C,overnment authorized to be spent through these various public relation firms and I have the figures here. Ronnlds Reynolds Marketing Consulting Service, $35,885. T. E. McLoughlan Development Associate.S' Limited, Industrial Promotion and Public Relations Sl56 ,125, Gordon Goldfarb Consultants, a tourist study, $82,000. Newfoundland Broadcasting Company spot announcements by Mr. John A. Nolan, $18,000, Colonial Broadcasting System, $1,134.

Lee Wolfe production of tourist film $50,000 and funds paid directly from the Economic Development Department, the Department of Mr. Smallwood I s office, for promotional advertising $60,000. AU HON. MEtffiER: Inaudible. MR, MOORES: So he is, but he spent too much money when he was here. You see they are spending a great deal for a person who is broke when he is here too. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, that is a total of $403,000 and for that amount the Government of Newfoundland received one,twenty-seven and a.­ half minute film, one report on tourism,, and pubic relations assistance of one department and some Newfoundland advertising as well as some financial advertising. That was the total that was received for $403,000. Nr. 1137

February 28, 1973 Tape 384 Pl( - 5 McLean's bills will be very close to that and aa a matter of fact they will be slightly more, I would guetHJ 1 Hr. Speaker, they are not finalized as yet but most of it will be when the minister speaks in the vicinity of $420~000~ I would outline right now what will be received before that amount is reached¼ AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible, MR~ MOOPJJ:S: That will be for the full fiscal year 1 as the last figures were for the full fiscal year. 1138

February 28, 1973 Tape 385 IB-l We will receive for that amount vhic.h could. Hr. Speaker, hut will not be any more than $17,000 nore than were paid to some of these peonle last year. (n.) one najor tourist fi. 1m which the departmental people say is a far sm,erior nun] itv to the nne produced by Lee Wolfe the preceding vear. {

b) a major twenty-seven and a hulf m:im1te fisheries film. (

c) distribution and arrangements for the playing of the films nt nn cost to many millions of potential tourists in Canada and the 11nited §tates and to the majority of the Canadian nooulation on the fi:;heries film. (

d) for instruction of fisheries films of maior importance in exnlaining net1 improvements in our fishing industry, (

c) three instructional highways films to he shown to young drivers, each of fifteen minutes in length and each ,~eo;!raphicallv show.lnp specific island driving conditlnn,c; or provi.ncin1 driving condit.ions I should say. I am sorrv. (

f) fourteen slide nr.csentntions.inclwHnp: the equinment to show them,dealing with the mnnv of the government Sf'rvic,;,s of mnnv deriartments available to the neoplc of r;,,,doundland which vi'! l he shovm thrnup:hout the province~ (

g) a very extensive •inhl ic re1at:ions nromotiona.1 nropramme !or the Department of Touri F"' and the Department of Fisheries. pub11C relations assistants for (

h) a monthly hulletin for the -people of Gros Horne Park 11rea. (

i) nhotography service instilled to the Department of 'fourism. (

j) public relations ar.rnistants to other departments if and when necessary. I am sure, Mr. Sneaker, that you will agree that there is no comparison between the work nerfonned in one vear a!'a opposed to the other. I would like to hreak away from these notes, Hr~ Speaker, .iust 1139

February 28, 1973 Tape 385 IB-2 for one :moment, which ! had prepared, to pick up some casual ones that I researched since. That is an example in the tourist film alone which has received so much criticism.

The tourist film which vils thought by the opposition to be such a terrible document that the chaiman or the nresident of the Industrial Tourist Association of Canada ,which is the association which handles al 1 the tour guides, all the tourist promotion for all the provinces, all the people who are involved in that sort of promotional Dus:iness in Canadai writes nnd asks could we show this film hecause it is one of the best films he has ever seen?Would we enter it into the National Film Competition thifi vear because he thinks it has award winning potential1 That is the poor nualitv that the man across the way talks ahout.

He must have been a Tor1? I did not know. I did not ask him. example of the value for the. tourist film, Fr. Speaker. is that 50,000,000 people w:Ul be seeing it this year in the United States and Canada on television. To buy one minnte nf televiRion t.i.:r:ie on the number of stations that the tourist film wi.11 be shown cost anproxirnately $700,000 ner minute. it is a twenty-seven nnd a ha1f minute film that is being shown at no cost to the rieople of this province.

The fisheries film, the same thing and on and on you could gn for services received 1iki! the articles that I mentioned that were shown in the nevsnapere T had here previously-. He have had more. value received for monies snent thi.B vear i..n public relations and tour-tsm, !A-r. Sneaker, I will not snv thnn in twentv-three years past hut certai.nlv many of them. It shows indisputnhly that the serv:tces nrovi.ded by the McLean Organization to this povernment are, a;:1 1 have said in the hegininr., of unn!ln111e1 value.

Naturally, thPse services; can he nrov::i.ded for this mrount- money because the 'McLean 13-roun has heen able to concentrate their efforts, establish i.n the nrovince, co-ordinate their rrogr:immes together nnd thereby a.fix savin17:s. 1 sursg1:;st thnt this is far he.tte-r than huvinv, ;,;ervices from people all oVer rnnadn each tn1dng money nut of the -province 1140

Februarv 28, 1°73 Tape 385 :rn-3 instead of !'if!ending a large portion of it he.re. Last year the film uas made in Boston 'bv Bostonians, the public relations being carried out hv a firm with no nersonnel here, onlv oersonne.1 in Ottawa. The consulttng was done lw a Goldberg Organization which was also monev taken out of this prov:l.nce. Arrnin the "kLenn groun has snent nnd is spendtng money here emplovinp: Newfotmdla.nders. We have on hand all the H1m.s and slide presentations 1 new t'ullctins etc. which have heen produced to dnte. In tl:rnt regard, M:r.

Sneaker, regarding that booklet which wns of c¾enr, wtlue, which wns not a good presentation, that waB waved hy the member from Bell Island, this will also be cmnmente.d on bv the Finister of Tourism, If there ts nnv nuel';tion ns to the quality of the fUms. Blide nresentations or othPr materials, we vonld be delighted to hnve the McLean's Or~anizntion sho~ them at any time to anv of the members of the onposition or people. who are interested, The two major films we have nlrendy shm-m.

All of the members of the opposition were invited to attend and none saw fit to do so with the exception of the honourahle member for Lahrndnr South. MR, ROBERTS: I do wish to discuss that because we vould have gone if we had realized the films were to be shown. The :i.nvi.tation we were given was to - what we we.re told was n press cocktail recention so we did not go. We would be de.lighted to see the films. To make ·tt a question, does the. Premier realize that? HON. FRANK MOORES: (PREMIER): l apologj_ze to the Leader of the Onvosition, }-fr. Speaker. They did not realize the films 11ere beinr, shown?

No, we we.re not told that, I would love to see them. l would really like to see them. Tiefare a select committee. preferably. HON~ FRANK MOORES: (PREMIER) i i1r. Speaker~ it has been suggested by the opposition in their,or at least in the wild, unfounded attack by the honourable member for Rell Island, that native Newfoundlanders have been resigning from the McLe.nn group operations here at a rate of one a week because of husiness dealings of the comnany. Hr. Speaker, 1141

Fchruarv 28, 1973 Tane 385 IB-4 eight employees over a year hrrve resir,ned from the ~kLenn groun and this is the history of many new grmms becauf:::t" peonle want to try something: new ,particularily in this fielil ,.ihich thev think is gla.mouroua tmd then they find that it is not tn their liking. That is not the way I hear it. HON. FRANK Y,QORES: (PREMIER): Mr~ Speaker, the member for Be11 'Island snvs that is not the way he hears it. I think probably the meroher for Bell Island has more problems understanding and 1:isteninr, thrm actuallv hearing~ Mr.

Speaker, I think one of the most important thing~ to rer11ec"rer when considering the activities of the McLean group of companies i.s that they are fulfilling the need. We are spending the same amount of monev or less than we have spent :i.n the previous administration. By dealing with the McLean Companv we are gettJng many added vecy necessary services.

Probably one of the best examples is in the field of the Departr.ient of Fisheries~ For a number of years the Denartment of Fisheries has been doing research in and field testing of new types of fishing gear, new methods of fishing, new wavs of improving the orof::l.tahility of this industry for our fishermen. Information was beiug µ:athered together but it never got out.

Some of the peonle in the department knew there was no method of gettin? this inform.at:tnn on a mass basis to those directly involved in the industrv, It is obviously so good for the denartment to know that the Scottish ring net, for instance that at fishing can he very successful in Newfoundland or that cod traps can be more effective if they are modified unless the fishennen themselves know it. If the fishermen do not know it then the research and study is a waste of effort which benefits noone. As I have said~ Mr.

Speaker, this type of investigation and study has gone on for some years but little attempt has been made, on a mass basis to get this information to all of the fishermen in the province. 1142

February 28 1 1973 TApe 385 IB-5 This year through the radio prograt;m1e, thro1qh the instrur:t:ional movies which have been and are being nroduced on cod traps, on b;isic. processing~ on ring netting, on trrMlf,r 1 tfe etc, we have nut the message in a form that can be easilv distrihuted and .is bei.nt cnsilv dist:rihuted to fishermen in all parts of the province nt this nrcsent ttme. Now obviously the movies are not good unless you have the facts but the facts are of little or no worth unless vou have the vehicle to tell the people about them.

This :instructionnl movies are not simplv movies 1-1ith the fancy announcer hut rather are films of an instructional nature told in a wav that the fishermen will know and understand. These a.re imnortant programrr:es, programmes which mv vovernment fceh, must he continued if we are to be Of maximum assistance to those people -tn the fishing industry. \.<Then elected we said the involvement of neople, the dialogue with the people and providing the people with inforrn.ation was one of the most important tasks of government.

The choice of method to be used~ whether it be movies, slides, printed matter etc~ is a :matter of iudgement, an opin:i.on. No one, Hr. Speaker, can quarrel with the bas:lc objective itself of providing people with information that is vnluahle to them. We choose the movie method nnd the slide presentation method because they offered easy profitability, the combination of both the audio nnd visual _message and thirdly, probably the most i.mnortant of all that of instructional movies that show the various processes. 1143

February 28. 1973, Tape 386. Pa~e l -- npb Yr. Spe.aFer, the fishery in Newfoundland is a very important part of our economy. I think everyone uses this, I think it 'becomes very nuch of n political issue on occnsion hecnuse a lot of people say it and a lot of people do not mean it. If our fishery 1.n this province is going to be projected~ moved into the era where it really is going to have some benefit for those involved in it, then wens a province must get the message across to our fishermen in particular thnt there nre new and better ways than -possibly they know where certain things can be done.

I do not think anyone, particularly the fishermeni would say that they have all the answers to all their problems. I know a few years ago any diversification from cod fishin~ itseJf would not have heen heard amongst the fishermen. Today these chanres are tak:Ln? place but they take new gear, new hoats and new equipment which were not readily available nor readily indentifiahle at thnt time. When r;omethin~ new comes up that is of value, Hr. Speaker, it is very iP1portant that the ~overrnnent or those in positions to pass on this new information do so in whatever and the most effective manner they feel is best.

This year the fisheries film will be seen on every English television station in Canada and it has been booked on every English television station in £,mada to just show how important the fishery is to our particular provi~ce~ The new tourist film has already been shown by C.ILC. here, c.n.c. in Toronto, C.F.C.F. Yontreal, one of the T.V.stations :in Calgary, W.G.R~ in Buffalo, in New York and it is about to be shown on two of the mn_ior New York television stations as well as ones in ,Chicago.

The twenty-seven and a-half minute movie is being enthusiastically received and for the next two years will be shown on television stations throughout the Eastern United States anrl nll of Canada. The cost of this film, as I mentioned before, was $58,000 including one hundred prints. Incidentally) the prints cost approximately two hundred dollars each. The shootin~ of this film took a cameraman a 1144

February 28, 1973, Tape 386, Page 2 - apb total of more than eighty days, editing took one hundred and twenty­ one days by the film editors and it took several more days to mix the sound and make the inter~negatives where the prints were taken from. I could go with a great deal more technical data here which I run sure the minister has to discuss in some detail and which I will skip for now.

Not only has the McLean group produced this film, but as a part of their budget the Tourist Department has (1) established a quarterly newsletter distributed to sll those in the travel industry in Canada and the Eastern United States. Invited to the province and worked with thee after they were here, prominent sports and outdoor writers to publicize such activities as tuna fishing, salmon and trout fishing etcetera, and these are .:just a small sample,if any one on the opposition would care to look at them for the type of publicity we got when these people went back.

All of this was in the budget of McLean, his budget not ours$ Released feature stories to the news media throughout Ganada and the Eastern United States about Newfoundland. Produced a series of local and international releases and feature stories of fishing and other events taking µlace in the tourist interest in Newfoundland~ Instituted a programme of working closely with lar~e tour operations in Canada and the Eastern United States to assist them in promoting special group travel to Newfoundland next year. I would like to speak personally on one of these programmes, which was carried out last summer.

To encourage the tuna fishing and other sports activities, the McLean group brought to Newfoundland,again out of their overall budget, prominent sports writers from the major newspapers of Canada,showing them the tuna fishing, salmon fishing etcetera we have in the province. All of these sports writers,upon their return to their respective newspapers, did an extensive series of stories praising this province as a #must" for sportsmen to visit. I 11si5

February 28~ 1973, Tane 386. Page 3 - apb -stress this series of stories because it is exactly what these writers~ Mr, Speaker, did~ They did not go back and write a single story they wrote a series of stories,over several weeks~ They wrote story after story telling of the excitement, telling of the fun and relaxation to be experienced here and urgin~ their readers to come and take

part in it themselves. This type of publicity is difficult, Mr. Speaker~ if not impossible to obtain unless the public relations people who are handling these people on their visitations are actually handled well and they feel confortable when they are here~ Mr. Speaker, I have just returned from Toronto last week where I had the opportunity of viewing one of the multi-criticized aspects of our public relations effort in this government.

I was there when tl:.e film was showinf,;, that 1 ·come Paint and Photograph us' which once again is the title that is not too popular with the member for Bell Island, I will be remarking on that in a moment. Therr were over one hundred people present,all putting package tours together for tourists to visit various parts of the world and Canada. They were all very excited and they were all very anxious to know more about Newfoundland. A great many of them are coming down and a great many of them vant to get in touch with our tourist department to make sure that the proper arrangements can be made. Hr.

Speaker, the cost of that particular party, for the edification 1,,mcc again of the honourable mew1Je.r for Bell Islanrl f'who paid for the booze? The gin-drinking government 11and so on) that total cost was borne by the trcLean r!roup as part of their overall budget and the cost to the Government of this Province and the people of this province was the minister travelling fron here to Toronto and back again~ Mr. Speaker, this is the type of activity which can be directly related to the long-.term expansion nntl development of our tourist business. We cannot sit and wait for the tourists to 1146

February 28, 1973, Tape 386, Page 4 --·abp come. We in this province are competing with the other provinces in Canada and with many locations in the West Indies and Europe and for that matte~ throughout the world today. We have the scenery, we have the pollution-free air,{except on occasion in this chamber) we have the tranquility, we have the friendliness of our people but this is not enough: unless we actively sell these assets to the tourists, to the travel press, to those. engaged in the tourist industry. This is the meeting that was held in Toronto.as an example.

There are others being held in New York ••• AN HON._ MEMBER: Boston and Philadelphia. Boston and Phililadelphia, where the Canadian Consul is shariniz the cost with the Newfoundland Government been.use they think it is such a marvellous idea, But then again, I am sure the member for Bell Island is not heyond attacking Canadian Consuls amongst his other weird and many subjects which he gets tied up :in every now and then. }ffi, NEARY:_ How about coming to Bell Island and throwing a cocktail party for the boys over there?

MR._HOORES:_ The honourable member for Bell Island suggests that we go over and show the film on Bell Island and have a cocktail partv for the boys over there~ I nm sure upon the occasion when the member for Bell Island returns to his district, that is entertainment enough for anybody. Mr. Speaker. Mr~ Speaker, as I said, the ministers of the various departments will be detailing exactly what money has been spent and what value received by the McLean organization. I have tried in a general way to point out some of the areas in which he hns been involved and some of the attitudes of this govern.,ient.

I apolog:lze for having to read some of it, because I did want to establish some of it actually on the record and make sure that I just did not go into a wild tirade because I think it is too important, Mr. Speaker, that the r,overnment itself at least show some responsibility in estahlishinf! the validity of the various people and the various programmes it has. 1147

February 28. 1973, Tape 386, Page 5 -- Hr. Speaker, as I said earlier, whenever someone attacks an individual in this House and we have had a lot of it, it seems to be alrrost a way of life in here, whenever sol':"!ebody nttacks an individual in this House it does nothing in effect but affect the credibility of this province~ Whenever a person p:ets up and slanders or vilifies and makes statements that he will not rna};c outside the House, whenever they try to do something by innuendo, this, Hr.

Speaker. does nothing but discredit, I hope in the future the individual who thinks this is the way to play the gnme realizes this, It is a little game, Mr. Speahff, that is basic.ally a very sick little gamc1 because we have a province to build and we have a province to build that takes public relations firms to do it. We must take the expertise that is available to us as a people and make sure it is to the greatest advantage of our province. We talk about 'McLean in this resolution.

There are departments here in this i:tovernment that have returned his work - on one project I know of one department that returned the work three times because it was not satisfactory. The only reason, Mr. Spenker, that was not done under the previous government was because no work was needed to be dom:: t so there was nothing to be turned down only the poll, the Goldfarb farnomJ' poll. That should have been turned down. Mr. Speaker, because it was not very accurate. Hr. Speaker, this province where the opposition and ourselves have a tremendous responsibility 1148

February 28, 1973 Tape No. 387 Nl1 - l MR. MOORES: responsibility. This business of individuals and name calling. ''patronage;' great stuff this word patronage, making him the very first claim on the resolution itself. 11 The present administration claimed they would award contracts for the expenditure of public money only after public tenders were called.u On page 367 right after that quote last year which was taken out of context and put on this resolution, the Leader of the Opposition, "I ar,ree completely that you cannot call bids for films or advertising agencies, 11 and on and on it goes. This, Mr.

Speaker, is just someone trying to misconstrue the facts. Soreeone who wants to make a political issue out of something that is basically so unimportant as to be unbelievable, to waste two days after today, probably next week a full day of this honourable House debating a quirk of an individual or group of individuals is absolutely disgraceful. The people of this province deserve more than politicians who are in here trying to make issues out of nonissues, of people who talk about other personalities because they enjoy it, because it is a way of life. Hr.

Speaker. it is the issues we want discussed in this House and the sooner we get back to the issues themselves, the better off the province and this House will be. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I welcome the Premier's comments regarding the attack of individuals, personalty assassination, slandering individuals and this sort of a thing, It is about the only thing in the whole speech that he made this afternoon that I agree with. I would like to point out 11 Sir, that he became a part of an organization, an administration, a party last year that spent two or three or four years in this honourable chamber, 11119

February 28 1 1973 Tape No. 387 Sir, doing nothing but attacking the personality of the then Premier, the personality of the various ministers of that .administration and the personality of Hr. Shnheen himself. So I welcome his comments but for the life of me 1 cannot see what the honourable the Premier is doing. !fR. HOORES: Would the member permit a question? NH - 2 "ffi. F. ROWE: Hr. Speaker, I believe I only have ninety minutes to speak and the I'remier can le