Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 25 (35th Legislature, 5th Session)

35-5-25

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

;' Fifth Sessi on -Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published urukr the tndhority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker Vol. XLlll No. 25 • 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, May 11, 1994 JSSN OS42-S492

NAME ASHTON, Steve BARRE'IT, Becky CARSTAlRS, Sharon CERll.LI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, G�egory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, IIm, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon.

FRIESEN,Jean MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and PoUtical AfftD ation CONSTITUENCY Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson Kildonan Ste.Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley GAUDRY, Neil GIILESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis St. Boniface Minnedosa C�escentwood Gimli HEL WER, Edward R HICKES, George KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHIJN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Man:el MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY,TIDl MANNESS, Clayton, Hon.

MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCORMICK, Nonna McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry STEP ANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann Point Douglas The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St.

Johns Elmwood Morris BUirOW s Sturgeon C�eek Osborne Brandon West Assiniboia River East Pembina Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Rossme�e K.irldield Parle Flin Flon La Ve�endrye Fort Garry Swan River PARTY. NDP NDP Liberal NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal Liberal NDP PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC Liberal PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP -

1497 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA VVednesday,May ll,1994 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS RO�NEPROCEEDINGS TABLING OF REPORTS Bon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the 1992-93 Annual Report of the Department of Labour. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon from the Crystal City Elemen tary School twenty Grade 6 students under the direction of Mr. Larry Hamilton.

This sch ool is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Rose ). Also this afternoon, from the River Elm School, we have twent y-six Grade 6 students under the direction of Mrs. Jennie Bellino. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Concordia (Mr. Doer). From St. Norbert Collegia te , we have twen ty-five Grade 9 students under the direction of Ms. Michelle Beaulieu. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurende au).

On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Goods and Services Tax Replacement-Manitoba Position Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister ofFmance. It is dealing with the goods and services tax. We asked the Premier (Mr. Filmon) during his Estimates whether Manitoba would be presenting a position to the fe deral Finance committee of Parliament dealing with the so-called scr apping of the GST and its replacement, Mr. Speaker.

The Premier could not indicate at that point to his knowledge whether Manitoba would be presenting a position paper. He thought they would not. Five provinces and the territories have presented a position to the federal government on the replacement of the GST. We note that the former Minister of Fmance , in 1989, presented Manitob a's position to the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance in October 1989. I was wondering whether the provincial government bas presented a position to the fe deral government on this tax, which I would suggest most Manitobans bate.

What is our position to the federal governm ent on this tax? •

(1335) Bon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker; as the Leader of the Opposition knows, the curren t federal government campaigned on the basis of a replacement to the existing GST. This is all a part of their initiati ve. They have a committee that is holding various he arings, and they attended here in Manitoba. I do not believe that any repr esentation was made fr om the government or from the two opposition parties, to the best of my knowl edge. We had off icia ls in attendance ga thering information.

I have met with various groups on this issue , but, reall y, we are utilizing that process as an opportunity to bear from Manitob ans, to hear from Canadians, on the particular issue. It is on the agenda for Finance minist ers' meetings at the end of June, and we will have an opportunity for input at that meeting.

1498 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11,1994 Goods and Services Tax Replacement-Manitoba Position Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, the minis ter will know that during our discussions of the GST during the Prem ier's Estim at es, the Premier indicated that the discussions between the provincial government and representatives of the federal government two themes recurred in those discussions .

One is that they want to have the tax hidde n, and two, they want to have some form of harmonization collection with the provinces, harmonization to overcome the criticisms coming from sm all business. I would like to know from the Premier, is that still the position that we are bearing in terms of what will happen with the GST from the fe deral gove rnment? We are expe cting a report from the fe deral Finance committee . Certainly, I do not believe that Canadians want to go from a bad tax that is visible to a bad tax that is invisible . Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, I mentioned to the Leader of the Opp osition during the Estimates that those were the only themes I had beard, not that I had beard them recently. Those were the themes that occurred, in fact were under discussion last time we got together with the fe deral leader, Mr. Chretien, which was back, I guess, in December. Since then, we have not beard anything other than that they are out for consultation, presumably listening to what Canadians are telling them about what ought to be done with the GST, but those were the only ideas that it appe ared the fe deral government bad at the time.

Whether or not they adopt some of the suggestions that are being made to them by Canadians-there may well be better suggestions put fo rward by people across Canada. Goods and Services Tax Replacement-M anitoba Position Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, one of the proposals that the Finance committee is dealing with, allegedly, is the whole issue of replacing the GST with a business transf er tax. All of us have been brief ed by a large coalition of people against that proposal, primarily a business coalition.

We have not had the capacity to review except on a very, I would say , superficial basis the business transfer tax and its impact in Japan, the only country where it is applied. But this coalition of small business, retail business and other business argues that the business transfer tax is a tax which would be imposed on fo od, residential rents, financial services, educational, health and government services. I wonder whether that is the analysis or assessment of the provincial government about replacing the GST with the business transfer tax.

What is Manito ba's position on a business transfer tax, on its impact on our consumers and on our citizens, particularly on the issue of fo od and education, health services and housing in terms of how it will impact on Manitoba? Bon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, we are in the process of looking at the various alternatives that are being put fo rward. The Leader of the Opposition is corre ct. One suggestion bas been a business transf er tax, and we are in the proce ss of determining what the ramifications of that kind of a tax could be here in Manitoba.

He also did indi cate, I believe , that the coalition that I think be met with and we certainly met with, the Manitoba coalition for GST repl acement, is prom oting a dif ferent approach, really a broadening of what currently exists. They have eight or nine fundamental principles in the irs, and we are not convinced that all of the principles necessarily correlate to one another.

There is some suggestion you might be able to lower the overall tax and so on, but there are other aspects to the tax in terms of input tax credits which do not necessarily allow for the kind of reduction that many people are talking about. So it is a very detailed and a very complex issue , obvious ly, when you are dealing with taxation. We are analyzing all of the approaches being put fo rward, and as I indicated to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer ), we will have an -

May 11, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1499 opportunit y for input at the Finance ministers' meeting in June arid certainly, I am sure, First Ministers will be discussing the issue . •

(1340) Health Care System Funding Mr. Dave Cbomiak (Kildooan): Mr. Speaker, first the governm ent bad a plan to cut hospital beds and put in place community services. '!bey did not put in place community services; they only cut beds. Then the government brought in Connie Curran, and she was going to do all of the reforming of the health care system, and we know what happe ned to Connie Curran, and we know how well off she is today.

Yesterday , we learned from the minister that for the first time we have beam that a hundred million dollars is going to be cut from the urban hospitals and that the managemen t of those hospitals are saying that this arbitrary decision is without any apparent understanding of the service implications. My question to the minister is, can the minister table the plan for the cutting out of a hundred million dol lars, and could he advise us what the effect is for each hospital and bow many jobs will be lost in the health care sys tem as a result of the governm ent's hundred-million-dollar plan? Bon.

James McCrae (Minister of Health) : Mr. Speaker, I have been consistent in making it clear not only to the honourable member, but to all fa cilities and the Manitoba Health Organization, anybody involved in the operation of acute care fac ilities, saying to them that whatever proposals they make, I will not accept any that have any negative impact on patient care. The honourable member wants me to table a plan. I have not made a plan.

The honourable member should be aw are that I have asked hospitals in Manitoba how they propose to respond to the declining demand that will be placed on acute care facilities as we continue to build services in the community , build services and spaces. For example , the honourable member's question take s no account of the fact that River East Personal Care Home has established 120 new personal care beds; Kildonan Personal Care Home bas es tablished 120 new personal care beds; Concordia Hospital has established 60 beds; Deer Lodge, 44 beds; the municipal hospitals, 20 beds.

The honourable member's question does not take into account that the shift from acute care to community care is happening and is working and worldng well. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, the minister knows that their cuts to this point have aff ected patient care. I ask the mini ster, again, it is their plan. They have told the hospitals to cut a hundred million dollars that will affect jobs, that will affe ct beds and, most of all, will affe ct patient care. The minister cann ot have it both ways. He canno t set out a plan for a hundred million dollars and then say , oh, it is not going to affect patient care.

Will the minister table the plan to cut a hundred mill ion dollars that they have asked the hospitals in Wmnipeg and Brandon to cut? Mr. McCrae: The honourable member's question assumes that nothing has happe ned in the last six years in the communi ty. I remind him that the government has incre ased spending for home care services by 93 percent in six years. 'Ibe honourable member has to look at this in a historical perspective, too. That program began in the mid- '70s. Bef ore that, there was almost total reliance on acute care spaces in hospi tals. Average length of stay has changed very, very consid erably.

The honourable member and his colleagues want to continue to see patients in hospitals who do not need to be there. That is not an appropriate place for people who can be looked after at home and who can heal better at home . The honourable member seems to be saying, scrap the Home Care program, and I will not do that. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, the minister knows that most of the increases in Home Care in this budget is as a result of the user fees that have been imposed on home care suppl ies .

1500 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11,1994 Mr. Spe aker, my final supp lem entary: Will the mi nister outl ine how much of that hundred- mi ll ion cut has al ready been realized and how much remain s to be realized from the urban hospita ls, and how much, in addition, are rural facilitie s to cut from their budgets? •

(1345) Mr. McCrae: Becau se pati ent care is the bottom line of this government, last fall, those hosp itals moving to comply with staffing guideline s were asked to put on hold any la yoffs at that time while we could review those guideline s. We have the help of the Manitoba Association of Regi s tered Nurse s. We have the he lp of the Coll ege of Physician s and Surgeon s, the hel p of the Manitoba Ass ociation of Licensed Practical Nurs e s and others invol ved in the review of those staffing guidelines.

I sugge st to the honourable member that what he wants to def end is hospita ls in Manitoba with low occupancy rates having the capacity to look after large numbers of pati ents who are not there, who do not need that serv ice. What the honourable member want s to def end is the ol d way of delivering service to people , which is not going to be app ropriate in the future and is not sustainab le . I want to preserve the health care sy st em, but the honourable member wants to destro y it. SID Limited Government Loan Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, ye ste rday, I que s tioned the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism on the wisdom of rais ing expectation s of the people of Selkirk about 600 jobs and about a $2.5-milli on loan to a company called Sas katoon Heavy Industrie s. Mr. Spea ker, in 19 90, jus t be fore the Conse rvative government of Saskatch ewan went to the po lls, the same company, a one- man company led by a man by the name of Blue Taylor [phonetic] made a promi se to the peop le of I Connan Parle , just outside of Saskatoon, that the re wou ld be up to 10 ,000 jo b s, doing what ? Manufacturing heavy equ ip ment. Mr.

Speaker, not one of those jobs was ever creat ed. The man has not regi stered that company in Saskatchewan since that time. It has lost its fed eral registrati on in the last two years. Why is this government hoppi ng into bed with a fly -by-night operation which has never built anything? Bon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Touris m): Mr. Speaker, it is not this gove rnmem 's or any member of this government 's intention to raise expe ctations. I think the member sh ould refer to his que sti on ye st erday as to the way in which he approached it.

He was criticizing this gover nm ent for wo rking to create job s in Manitoba. We have not lent any money to anyone in SHI. We have said if 18 conditions are met, we will negotiate with them the poss ibility of some 600 jobs in Selkirk . By the way, the member is saying we are jumping into bed. No, it is the community of Selkirk , the chamber of commerce , community lead ers who have come forward as king for considera tion, so he shou ld refer his comments , I be lieve , to the Sel kirk Chamber of Commerce. That would be more appropriate, Mr. Speaker. SHI Limited Government Loan Mr.

Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, this government saw fit to pass an Order -in-Council guaranteeing up to $2.5 mill ion. They will not loan any money to stude nts, but they will sure loan to Sas katoon Heavy Indu strie s. They put that money on the tabl e, committed it in the event that conditions are met. Sas katoon Heavy Industrie s have led the peop le of Selkirk in this province to believe the re will be hundre ds of jobs. They did the same thing befo re the 1990 el ecti on with Repap when they prom ised 800 jobs which did not materialize.

Why is this government going down the road that even Grant Devine pulled away from befo re the el ection becau s e he rea lized what he had gotten into? Why is this government prepared to get into bed and commit this money and rai se the se -

May 11,1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1501 expectations unfairl y for the people of Selkirk when this co mpany bas never built anything and went through this four years ago with Mr. Devine? •

(1350) Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I think the member opp osi te ought to firstly con sider his words . He is the one who raised this in the House. We did not put out any press release- Point of Order Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table a press release entitled Progres sive Conservati ve issued yesterd ay by tbis- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member does not have a point of onler. The honourable Leader, would you kindly take your bench, sir. ••• Mr. Fdmon: Mr. Speaker, this gove rnment did not raise the issue in the House. That member raised the issue in the House.

This gove rnment did not-[inteJj ection] Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Leader of the sec ond oppos ition party, you have already put your question, sir. He is attempting to put more questions on while the honoura ble First Minister is trying to attempt to rei!JX)nd to the first questi on. I would ask the honourable Fiist Minister to deal with the matter raised. Mr.

Filmon: I know that the Leader of the Liberal Party knows be is looking fo olish on this issue, but I will just ensure that be knows be is the one who raised the issue, that this gove rnment respo nded to the work that bas been done by the ec onomic development group in Selkirk , by the chamber of co mmerce, the local co mmunity and all the interested peo ple to attract an industry. This government bas only agreed to put fo rward loan money provided that they meet 18 con ditions that include them raising $24 pillli on of available capital financing.

I think what the member opposi te ought to be doing is trying to tell the public bow be can square his position yest erday about being against government financing for business when be put out a news release on the eve of the ope ning of the Legisla ture entitled, Liberal legi sla tive agenda, that says that the Liberal Party legislative agenda wil l lead with a dual stra tegy, training strategy fo cused on youth and tax incentives for business. This is the most co nfused individual we have sit ting in this Legislature . He does not know what be is saying .

He changes his mind from one day to the next, and be is acting as an absolute fool. If be wan ts to dig himself out, that is fine , Mr. Speaker, go ahead. sm Limited Government Loan Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, what I am against is a gove rnment trying to dupe the public just before an election, and that is what you are trying to do. Let me just remind the Premier of a hea dline in the Saskatoon Star-Ph oenix two years ago. Forty million factori es stil l remains a dream-and it is going to be a dream here , Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, I want to ask the Minister of Industry , Trade and Tourism why be put forw ard an Order-in -Council naming a co mpany as being deserving of a co mmiunent to a $2.5-million loan, albeit on certain con ditions, when it is not even a regis tered co tpo ration. It bas lapsed. Secondly , where and when bas this co mpany ever built anything, because yeste niay the minister said on the rec ord in response to my question, be spec ifically sa id, this is a co mpany which co nstruc ts or manufac tures or makes heavy manufacturing or heavy mining-type equipment. What have they ever made, Mr. Speaker?

Why is this gover nment leading the people of this provinc e to believe they are creating jobs? They are creating false hopes. They know they are not co ming. They have no intention. They did it in 1990, and they are doing it again. •

(1355) Bon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, it is not the intention of this ministry or this governm ent to

1502 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 1994 falsely raise expectations. It is not our intention at all. . Yesterday, I responded to a question in the Legislature which the Liberal member raised, which I think he is finding extremely emb arrassing today and by which he has now caused himself some emb arrass ment and is trying to dig out of it. Mr. Speaker, it is a feder ally register ed company. It has exclusive production rights for a product from GelUlany that manufactures heavy industrial equipment for mining and that like-type of activity. I would agree.

Maybe I misstated yesterday that they have built something. They probably have not, but they have a proposal, Mr. Speaker, that the community of Selkirk found acceptable. The Economic Development Board, the chamber of commerce, they came forward requesting that this government give consideration to their proposal . We said if 18 conditions are met, we will entertain a loan proposal. We will not give it unless certain conditions are made, one of which is there has to be $24 million of equity and/or loan capital raised by that company. That is pretty clear, Mr. Speaker.

Maybe the Liberal Leader has a hard time understanding it, but I thin k the general public will clearly understand it, if communicated properly. Point of Order Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, the minister has, I believe, put on the record that I was misleading the House about the federal registration. The company has had its registration lapse- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member does not have a point of order. Grow Bond Program Jentan Project Mr. Gregory Dewar (S elkirk): Mr.

Speaker, last night I had the opportunity, along with 50 residents in Se lk:ii:k, to attend a public meeting in Selkilk conce rning the proposed Jentan project which could create 15 to 35 jobs in Selkirk. As the Minister of Rural Development knows, this project is endorsed by the Triple S business development centre in Selkirk. I would like to ask the minister today if he can tell the House when the finn will know whether or not it will be accepted for a Grow Bond program. Bon.

Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): I would like to tell the member that the company Jentan has been working with the community of Se lk:ii:k for some time in putting the proposal for wa rd, but there has been no applicat ion to the Department of Ru ral Development for a Grow Bond to my knowledge. Now, I think there has been some work done as background work, Mr. Speaker, for the potential of a Grow Bond, but I do not believe there is an applicat ion that has come forward for a Grow Bond or for any amount. Mr. Speaker, the project would be examined, as all projects are.

The review committee would examine it, as well, but we will wait until there is indeed an application forwarded to the department and to the review committee. Mr. Dewar: Fortunately for Selkirk, Mr. Speaker, the Liberal Leader nor was any of his candidates there at the meeting last night, opposing jobs, opposing development for Selkirk. Fortunately for Selkirk, they were not there . Grow Bond Program Jentan Project Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, my next question is for the Minister of Environment.

This project depends upon the price for recycled tires remaining at the current level, and I ask the Minister of Environment, will he assure the House and the people of Selkirk that the program will continue and that these rate s will not be lowered? Bon. Glen Cu m mings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, this syst em that Jentan is proposing has certainly been one that has been intriguing from the start. Their proposal is certainly eligible if they meet certain criteria.

However, I would caution the member and anyone who would apply under the Used Tire Program that it would have to meet particular criteria, as the

May 11 , 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1503 establishment of this plant would have to meet environmental critena. SRI Limited Government Loan Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, my final question: I would like to table a letter from the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Downey) thanking me for my support of the SID program and the 600 jobs that will come to Selkirk. I guess the minister has a poor memory, and he forgot that he signed the letter on March 18.

My question to the Minister of Rural Development is: Can he tell the House whether the SID project will find out whether or not it is in line for a Grow Bond as well? Hon. Leonard Derkacb (Minister of Rural Development): Mr. Speaker, I believe the Minister of Industry, Tmde and Tourism laid out the conditions that have to be met prior to any funds being made ava ilable to the company. Indeed, no application at this point in time bas been made, as far as I know, to the department with respect to a Grow Bond.

Before we would even cons ider it, those conditions that have been outlined by the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism would have to be met before we could even take the first step. • (1 400) Brandon General Hospital Funding Mr. Leonard Evans (B randon Eas t): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Health. The Brandon General Hospital bas su ffered serious cuts in its budget by this government in the past few years, forcing it to close the pall iative care want, the gynecology want, and reducing the level of nursing care in that hospital.

Now it has been required to cut another $4 millfon in the next three ye ars. One option being cons id ered is the elimination· of one-third of its surgical beds, but this will only save about $300,000. My question to the minister is, where is the Brandon General Hospital supposed to find the remaining $3.7 million it has been ordered to cut? Hon.

James McCrae (Minister of Health) : We ll, I thank the honoumble member for mising this question, because, like him , I share the view of the importance of the Brandon General Hospital today and the services it delivers well into the future for future generations of western Manitobans. That is why we are looking at a phased approach to the delivery of services in Westman. We do not start, as was done in 1987, with no planning whatsoever for the pennanent closure of 42 beds at Brandon General Hospital by the honoumble member and his colleagues.

I remind the honoumble member, he sat in the cabinet that made that decision, and after it was made, he went away and bid. Mr. Leonard Evans: The people of the city of Brandon and Westman want to know of this minister and of this governm ent, when will these cuts to the Bmndon General Hospital's opemting budget cease? When will the downgrading cease? As the minister knows, over 5,000 people in Westman signed a petition in 1992, and they believed that the quality of health care at BGH was suffering. The minister knows that. Mr.

McCrae: The ho nourable member has already proved that his thinking is the thinking that goes bac k 25 ye ars. We kno w that . He has demonstrated that in this House. The honoumble member says, when is it going to end? Refonn of the health system and change in the whole wor ld 's indust rial, economic and political system is going to go on for a long time. The honourable member should have gotten used to that by now. He has been around long enough. The point is, you cannot continue to apply the solutions of25 years ago to the probl ems of today.

The fact is the honourable member and his party did little or nothing to promote and to enhance home care services, little or virtually nothing to promote seniors services in our communities, little or nothing to promote adult day clubs in this province. Those are the things this government has been promoting and funding.

1504 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 1994 By way of illustrati on, to show who has the interests of the health of Manitobans at heart, I point to the record of spending of our government on health care as a percentage of total spending and co mpare it to that of the gover nment represented previously, in the olden days, by the honourable member, and his government looks very shoddy indeed- Mr. Speaker: Older, please. Mr. Leonard Evans : Well, the peo ple of Brandon and area know that we built $18 million worth of nwsi ng homes in three years, '86, '87 and '88-$3 million, and the member knows that, too.

On behalf of the people of Br andon and Westman, I ask the minister, what is your long-tenn plan for the Brandon General Hospital? The peo ple out there want to know, how far is this minister, is this government going to go to cut levels of services? How many more beds are you going to cu t? How many more staff are you going to lay offl Mr. McCrae: It is exactly long-term planning that we are trying to do and that honourable members opposite want to stop.

I think it is paradoxic al that they rise in the House so sanctimoniously, when real ly, if we fo llowed their advice, we would have destroyed the health care system abo ut a year ago. The honour able member asked about a long-term plan for Brandon General Hospi tal. Our government, not the one that he used to be involved in that cut hospital beds at Brandon without any plan, has approved the first phase of a $72-million redevelopment for Brandon General Hospital.

That redevelopment will take plac e over 10 years and will take into account the popul ation health needs of western Manitobans , and we will do so far more efficiently than the honourable members opposite ever dreamed of doi ng. In fact, whenever they dreamed of efficiency, they felt they were having nightmares. Provincial Judges Early Retirement Package Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, we now have record backlogs in the provinc ial co urt. For young off enders , this means that co nsequen ces are not meaningful and are not related to the of fence.

For abused partn ers, it makes a mockery of the zero toleranc e policy against spousal violence . My questi on for the Minister of Justice is, now that the government has made a back-room buy out of ei ght ju dges at a co st of $1 million to Manitobans, meaning, by the way, that Manitobans will be short 11 full-ti me judges by July 1-that is a quarter of the bench- will the minister advise of the pro jected impact on the court backlog? Bon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General) : Mr.

Speaker, as the member tries to characterize an agreement which was offered, I totally reject his characterization of back-room. He is entirely wrong . I would also like to remind him, I tabled in the House informa tion which spoke about a severance package which the NDP off ered to judges when they were in government What has been offered is a severance package. I would like to say also that I have received no co nfirmation from the chief judge as to those judges who are accepting the severanc e package, so I am not able to co nfirm for him exactly an amount. Mr.

Speaker, I would also like to say that there are cu rrently three vac ancies in the provinc ial co urt, and we are moving with the Provinc ial Court Chief Judge to deal with those vacancies. Then for any judges who do accept the severanc e package, we wil l be worki ng with the chief judge to determine replacements. Mr. Mackintosh : If the minister is saying this is not a sec ret back-room deal , will she now immediately table this deal in the Legislature at a minimum, or will she do the right thing and bring in the arrang ement as provided under The Provinc ial Court Act? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Speaker, as I have said before, the agreement that was reached is outside of the sc ope of what the member refers to in terms of The Provinc ial Court Ac t. This is a one -time- only seve rance package, time limit ed. As I said to the member, when the NDP were in government, they made an agreement, a severance -

May 11, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1505 package with judges which covered a year, and I believe he knows the tenns which we have also provided. Mr. Mackintosh: A simple question, Mr. Speaker: If it is not a secret deal , why is she not tabling it in this House so that Manitobans can look at it and determine, in light of the backl ogs, in light of the layo ffs, the cuts, a flat budget for Corre ctions , if that is a good deal for Manitobans? Mrs. V odrey: Mr. Speaker, the member makes a number of accu sati ons as he asks his questi on.

I will be very happy to deal with each of those accusations in detail when we get to the Estimates. However, I think he should not attempt to dangerously exaggerate facts to Manitobans in tenns of how the courts are opera ting. I ca n tell the member that, certainly , all the co urts are ope rating within the time lines of the decision that the Supreme Court brought down, so they are not ope rating outside of that in any way, shape or fo nn. However, I will say that in tenns of court procedure , I am wodd ng with the chief judge to ensure that it is the most efficient procedu re that we can have for Manitob ans.

Hog Fanning Operations Moratorium Ms. No rma McCormick (Os borne) : Mr. Speaker, my questi on is to the Minister of Rural Development Yesterd ay, about a hundred residents attended the co uncil of the Local Gov ernm ent District of Anns trong to ask for a prope r review of the issue of hog plant developm ent. The LGD of Annstrong Coun c il co mmitted to the preparing of a development plan and to pressure the Minister of Rural Development to plac e a morat orium on the co nstru ctio n of large hog operati ons. Can the minister tell us what his posi tion is on this request for a moratori um 7 •

(1410) Bon. Leonard Derkacb (Minister of Rural Develop ment): Mr. Speak �r, the LGD of Annstrong did in fact request in a resoluti on that a moratori um be plac ed on the expansion and the co nstr uc tion of hog barns in the LGD of Armstrong. They al so, in their resolution, indic ated that they want to get on with their development plan.

I can tell the member this afternoon that indeed staff from my department will be worki ng with the LGD immediately on the development plan, but I have to indicat e to the House that there is no way I have the authority to put a moratorium on the construction or the expansi on of hog barns in the LGD. I must also add that indeed there are new regulations that have now been put in place, and the interdepartmental co mmittee has met with the proponent, and the proponent is meeting the co nditio ns of the regulati ons.

So although there have been some statements made by a co nsultant , I must indicate that, obviously , the co nsultant did not know or did not read the regulati ons, acco rding to the co mments that he made on the radio. Hog Fanning Operations Moratorium Ms. No rma McCormi ck (Osb orne) : Mr. Speaker, my supplementa ry is to the sa me minister. The LGD of Annstrong in the resoluti on that the minister speak s of is in effect resc inding its supp ort for the hog bam co nstructi on, includi ng the Pur- A-Tone 's feed pro ject which is curre ntly underway.

Will the government co mmit to a review and approval proc ess whic h ensures that the site selection for these operations will inc lude a mechanism whereby the local peo ple 's co ncerns ca n be addressed and their land and water is protected from environm ental degradation? Bon. Glen Cummi ngs (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, the environmental co nsultant who was leading the charge last night at the LGD is a fo nner member for Wolseley-what was his name-Harold Taylor. I believe he is a close pers onal friend of many of the members of the Liberal delegation in the House here. I quote from his co mments.

He says: There is absolutely no damn scru tiny of these applic ations. Well, I won der if he has not read our regulati ons that we have just put in plac e that refer to storage

1506 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 1994 facilities of sufficient capacity to store the fertilizer used for the effluent; must design and construct so as to prevent escape of any livestock waste. There are about 10 pages here that I would like to read into the record, Mr. Speaker, but I think he has missed it. Ms. McCormick: My final question is for the Minister of Environment.

Will his department conduct a review on the de velopment of bog farm sewage lagoons which will res ult in ser io us pollution if not [interjection] No, you have not; you never have-which will result in serious pollution if not properly designed and managed? Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, I hope you will indulge me for a moment. I am afraid that the member does not app reciate the si gnificance of the livestock waste management regulations that we have recently proclaimed that refer dire ctly to the standards of construction and management of li vestock waste.

It speaks to the te chnical as pects of the construction of the lagoons. It directly addresses the handling of dead stock. It has been consulted with a very broad base and brought in specifically with the intention of making sure that the construction of additional livestock lagoons and livestock waste management in this province is well handled, well managed and within safe environmental standards. Workforce 2000 Northern Blower Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley) : Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Education.

Over the past two years, Northern Blower bas received $80,000 worth of tax rebate to train its workers in what government documents call technical education. Would the minister, who bas had advance notice of this question on April l9 , tell the House today which classification of worker was trained and what curricu lum was followed? Bon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I do not have that information. When I do, I will share it with the member. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Speaker, the minister promised that information on April 20. Management Training Ms.

Jean Friesen (Wolsele y): Will the minister then tell us what proporti on of the millions of dollars spent on Workforce 2000 bas been spent on management training? Will be undertake now to table that analysis in this House so that Manitobans may know bow their tax dol lars have bee n redistrlbuted? Bon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I will undertake to deter mine whether or not I can provide that information in the detail sought by the member. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Qu est ion s bas expired.

NONPOLmCAL STATEMENTS YM·YWCA Women of Distinction Awards Bon • .Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General) : Mr. Speaker, may I have permiss ion to make a nonpolitical statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable minister have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mrs . Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, I would like to say it was a privilege and a ple asure last evening to bring gree tings on behalf of the government of Manitoba to the annual YM-YWCA Women of Distinction Awards dinner.

The awards dinner was extremely well atte nded by Manitobans who have become longstanding supporters of this established award. Eighteen years ago, the YM-YWCA established the tradition of celebrating the ou tstanding achievements of Manitoba women. Through the years, many women of distinction have inspired us by their commitment and their dedication. Their con tribut io ns and thei r commitments have enr iched all of our lives. Last evening, 27 women who are recognized as leaders in their respective fields were recognized through their nominations for this award.

They are all a confinnation and a celebration of the valuable

May 11, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1507 contributions that women make to every aspect of our society. These women are each role models who have the power to inspire dreams and to chal lenge women's career choices. As more women distinguish themselves in nontraditional fields and in every sector, business, volunteerism and community development, young girls will be encouraged by their horizons. I would like to extend my congratulations to each nominee and recipient of the Women of Dist inction Award for their ins piration , commitment and their bard wor k.

Our communities are enhanced by their efforts, and the Province of Manitoba is proud to have these women of excellence publicly recognized for their contributions that their lives have made to the status of Manitoba women. The recipients of the 1994 YM-YWCA Women of Distinction Awards are: Vanaja Dbruvarajan, Janice Dodd, Shirley Matile, Katherine Pettipas and Win Torchia. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Wellington have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Ms. Becky Barrett (WeDington): Mr.

Speaker, I, too, would like to give our congratulations to the Women of Distinction who were nominated and selected last night at the awards dinner. I would like very briefly to mention a bit about the background of the five women who did get the award this year. V anaja Dbruvarajan is one the few women of colour to become a full professor at the University of Winnipeg. She is instrumental in raising the consciousness of her students and colleagues around issues of racism and gender exclusion.

She was awarded a professorship in women's studies at Simon Fraser for her education and advocacy on behalf of immigrant women and women of colour, and was insFntental in getting the Margaret Laurence Chair in Women's Studies at the University of Winnipeg and the University of Manitoba. Janice Dodd received her Ph.D. in molecular biology at the University of Toronto in 1981, is now an associate professor in the Department of Physiology, Faculty of Medicine, at the University of Manitoba and directs a research program in molecular endocrinology and cancer.

She bas been instrumental in improving the opportunities for women in science, and bas helped develop a course unique to western Canada within the women's studies program entitled Women in Science. Shirley Matile bas broken ground again for women in the traditionally male occupation of engineering. She was the only female in her 1977 graduating class at the University of Manitoba in Civil Engineering, and 17 years later she is director of admissions for the Association of Professional Engineers of Manitoba, the first woman in this position.

Among her achievements in the post bas been the creation of the first directory of women engineers in Manitoba. Katherine Pettipas bas been for the past 19 years curator of native ethno logy at the Manitoba Museum of Man and Nature. She bas been at the forefront of discussions between FU'St Nations and museums and bas contributed to the recent national task force report which has become a blueprint for defining a new relationship between museums and aboriginal peoples. She was given last year the Canadian Museums Association Outstanding Achievement Award.

Fmally, but certainly not least, is Win Torchia who is at Red River Community College. She was a pioneer in the field of assisting women in nontraditional or alternative careers. She was co-ordinator of women's awareness for CN Rail in the 1970s and developed a first step employment equity program before this term bad ever been even designed. She is currently department head of women's programs at Red River Community College and bas been worldng in the area of freeing the college publications from sexist language.

She was the first chair of CN's fundraising campaign in support of the United Way, the Cancer Society and the Salvation Army.

1508 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 1994 I think these five women, as well as all of the women who were nominated, show what women can do, and it is up to us as members of our society to ensure that all women are given the opp ortunity to fu1till their dreams and desires. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. • (1420 ) Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Osborne have leave to make a nonp olitical statement? [agreed] Ms. Norma McCormick (Osbor ne): Mr. Speaker, I, too, would like to add my words of congratulations to the five women who were honoured in this way yesterday.

I had the privilege of receiving this award in 1977, and I know from personal experience that the recognition is indeed heartfelt, but when we accept an award like this, there is an overwhelming feeling that we accept it on behalf of all women. We are honour ing women who have made contributions in the academic world, for advocacy, public and community service and to business and industry, but we must recogni ze that these contributions as exceptional are only so in addition to making their day-to-day contributions in their personal lives to the benefit of their children, their families and to their community.

Again, on behalf of our caucus, I congratulate them. Committee Changes Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for St Vital (Mrs. Render), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Economic Development be amended as follows: the member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer) for the member for Arthur- Virden (Mr. Downey); the member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Pallister) for the member for Charleswood (Mr. Ernst); the member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer) for the member for Assiniboia (Mrs. Mcintosh). Motion agreed to. •

(1430) ORDERS OF mE DAY Bon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty . Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Depa rtment of Educa tion and Training; and the honourable member for Sehte River (M rs.

Dacquay) in the Chair for the Department of Health. COMMITI'EE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) EDUCATION AND TRAINING Mr. Deputy Chairpers on (Mar cel Laurendeau): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply ple ase come to order. This afternoon this

section of the Committee of Supply, meeting in Room 25 5, will resume conside ration of the Estimates of the Department of Education and Training. When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 2. (b)(

l) on page 38 of the Estimates book. Shall the item pass? Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Well, we were just talking about professional development at the time that we had to adjourn yesterday, and I expr essed my conce rn abou t the minister's discussion or comments about professions in his view and also the way that teachers were being treated by the government measures, and that it was contradictory to anybody's defmition of a profession.

I wanted to ask the minister briefly, as we talk about this whole area of reform, whether he finds the move to eliminate prof essional development days, which bas been initiated as a result of his government's action, somewhat contradictory with the needs for teachers in a time when he is saying major change is required in the public school system-major curriculum changes. We see that a -

May 11, 1994 LEGISLA1lVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1509 new blueprint forrefonn of the education system is going to have an irilpact in the classrooms. How does the minister rationalize this reduction, or is it just convenient to find the dollars for a short time and that be would not want to see that happen over a longer tenn? But bow does be rationalize those two views of the world, when in fact there is more demand for professional development, and, on the other hand, those days are being eliminated to a great extent in many divisions across the province? Bon.

Cla yton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the question is fair. It is one that has been posed to me many times by presidents oflocal associations and, as a matter of fact, by chairs of boards of trustees. As I have said on many oc casions, the government believes in professional development. As a matter of fact, my predecessor, the member for Roblin -Rossell (Mr. Derkacb), when be brought in the new formula, one of the very significant variables within that was support for the first time, or certainly increased support, of professional development days.

I can remember the minister bringing that to cabinet and what a strong proponent be was of that commitment by way of funding fonnula. That was readily accepted by the governm ent of the day. So I would say in the broader context the gover nment understands the imp ortance of professional development days and hope they will continue. We still provide wmkshops during the school day-I am talking about the department now. Of course, we are always mindful that professional development, or lifelong learning or anything you want to call it, is a responsibility not only of employers but indeed employees.

As I said in this very committee room to representatives of the Teachers ' Soc iety and, indeed, some representatives of the local asso ciation in attendance, when we considered Bill 22 when I was the host minister, at that time I said, was there anything with respect to Bill 22 that prevents you as teach ers from attending, without pay, professional development days?

I did not receive, at any of those questions that I posed to those who were here to provid e infonnation with respect to Bill22, any contradictory statement indicating that the legislation prohibited anybody from attending professional development activities, because indeed nothing prohibits that. If the element is that you have to be paid to attend those days, then that becomes the issue. I am saying that the higher order then, even overriding the com mitment we made to profes sional development days by way of the funding fonnula, was indeed the sharing of the limited and finite dollars within the public purse.

That was the overriding consideration, and as I have said to people everywhere, trustees, teachers, superintendents, 100, 000 of us, including every person around this table, take our salary and our remuneration from the public purse, every one of us. And the very essence of Bill 22 was to ensure that everybody made a commitment to that without exception. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we stand by the higher order, in this case being Bill 22 which, in some cases, obviously, worked against or at cross purposes with the professional development support that we have built into the new fonnula. Mr.

Pl ohman: There are so many contradictions in the minister's statements because, in fact, be is saying, well, nothing prevents teachers from undertaking professional development on their own time. That is part of being a professional, and many, many teachers if not all or most do that, and in fact it points back to the ridiculousness of reducing their annual salary by one two-hundredth when they miss five and a half hours in the classroo m because they are forced to do so by way ofBill22.

It shows bow ridiculous that is and unfair to deduct one two-hundredth and that is why I said to the minister there should have been another system for detennining the amount to be deducted, and certainly not one two-hundredth because it really belittles the job of the profe ssion. The minister did not seem to have thought about it other than to say, well, they said the maximum was eight days and the rest had to take 10, but there are divisi ons now tak ing 10. Th at wou ld demonstrate to me that everyone is being asked to take and can take, in that legislation, up to 10.

1510 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 1994 [interjection] There is no 15; I do not know where the minister came up with that. I guess the minister may have been advocating 15. So that makes my point, when he talks about teachers as professionals engaging in prof essional development activities beyond school hoUIS, and as I say, most teachers do that. I think the minister also has to look at how efficient this is.

Would he agree with me that as a result of the elimination of the days that were provided for this in many school divisions, more and more teachers are engaging in prof essional development during class time, so it is cutting into class time, contact with students, which is I would say undesirabl e?

The minister can indicate if that is true, and whether that means that the department out of another budget, through the suppor t for prof essional development that he just referred to when he talked about his predecessor increasing funding for support for professional development, that there has been increased -a draw for substitutes and for workshops that go on during the school day because there is no time to do it on professional development days. Those days do not exist any longer. Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we do not have at this point any evidence of the assertion made by the member for Dauphin.

We have not received letters from school divisions, particularly with respect to the increased call on substitution dollars. I am disappointed that the member would not be prepared to accept my challenge in his statement. He can talk about my contradictory statements in his terms, but, again, I told him the higher orders. The higher orders were this. One hundred thousand of us draw our support from the public purse , and what we said was there only are 50 0,000 tax filers in the province of Manitoba.

Twenty percent of us draw our livelihood from the public purse, and what we said was, given the difficulties of the time , everybody, whether you work for Hydro or Telephones or are a teacher, or indeed, even if you are engaged within the health care system, everybody should be expected to share the difficulties around the shortage of money in the public purse. • (1 440) The member refuses to accept that that is the higher order. I guess that is why we are philosophically apart, and that is why we are in different parties.

Because if you accept that as the basic principle, then you have to try and engender some element of fairness across all of us who draw our supp ort again from the public tax dollar. Mr. Plo hman: First of all, that is another debate, and I have put all my comments on the record, and our party's comments on what we felt with Bill22 years ago, so we are not going to get back into all that again. It is a matter of record.

The issue is, of course , it is kind of odd that the minister would talk about fairness and equity and that, when in fact the way he has applied Bill22 to the education system is not fair and equitable at all, because there are many teachers who have not been subject to Bill 22 . So the minister cannot talk about the higher order being that ever yone should- Mr. Mannes s: Is that what you recommend? Mr. Plohman: I am telling the minister he has not accomplished that. I never said I recommen ded it or did not recommend it.

The minister is in the position of having been in [inteJjection] Well , the minister has no courage. When he starts to stand up in this House and in this committee and tell Manitobans that in fact he has an equitable system when he has not an equitable system because he wants someone else to do the dirty work for him, and that was the school boards, you see, to pass it on to the middle man to do it, that is in fact what has happened- Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please.

Can I ask the honourable members to curtail from the debate that we are having without coming through the Chair and put their comments through the Chair so we can keep the decorum to a level that Hansard can copy us? Mr. Plohman: Mr. Deputy Chairpers on, I fmd also a contradiction between the re lega ting of prof essional development to a lower-order need, -

May 11, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1511 that the minister has said He says that pro fess ional development is not as great a concern as saving those dolla rs when in fact-and I say the contradiction is there be cause his own docum ent, in providing a summ ary of consulta tions to division staff and consultation and dialogue with stakeholders, said that in order for change to be brought about successfully, staff within a division, as well as in the schools, need to be provided with effective opportunities to develop and enhance their skills .

It is recognized within this docum ent and has been recognized by many who are consulted that this is a major concern and therefore a higher -order requirement, using the minister's words. I wonder how he is going to rationalize that statement with regard to future directions with his past action, which in fact has releg ated prof es sional development to a lower order. In fact, the minister has made an issue of stating that in this committee today. Mr. Manness: Well, the member overstates the case, and he attempts to put words in my mouth.

I said this government fully understands the imponance of professional development days. The question here is, who is going to pay for them? We are doing everything we can within the department time, given that the departmental staff , too, have had a reduction in their salaries and yet are expected to work the same number of hours, and indeed no different than anybody else, but we still expected the department, within their time and their effort, to outreach and deliver prof essional development in the way that we can .

The question is here now, should teachers continue to be paid during this time for these days? Is there no other set of circumstances that could cause the activities around development to occur at some other time . [interjection] Well, if they are, then the system is working, but the question is, can we not grow, can we not build upon that? Can we not build upon that?

I honestly believe that as a prof essional, if you wanted to increase your knowledge base, which I fully understand many teachers do, and I support them, then I would think that given these difficult times, you may want to do that on your own accord, and you may want to, through your societies and your associations, try to develop a model which would provide other opportunities than have existed in the past. I say to the member, that does not mean that it is a lesser priority in the scheme of all of the changes we are consideri ng. It is not.

It is a very high priority, but with respect to fairness, I have said there are higher prioritie s, and the priority was that somehow we had to save the jobs of 500 to 600 people in the public sector. The only way we could do that was to pull $25 million out of the public payroll, and the only way we could do that was ask that each and every one who draws from the public payroll take a reduction. In doing so, we saved $500 or $600 across all of government That is the higher order, the saving of $500 or $600 across the public payro ll. Mr.

Plobman: It is odd to hear the minister talk about fairness as being the higher order and to talk about saving jobs when in fact this government has eliminated jobs in addition to imposing Bill 22 and reducing salaries. Point of Order Mr. Manness: I just want to correct the record. I think in my emotion al outburst, I used $500 or $600. I meant positions and/or people , to correct the record. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the minister for that, but there was no point of order. • •• Mr. Plobman: Mr.

Deputy Chaiipe rson, I know that we certainly got the meaning of what the minister was saying, reg ardle ss of whether he stated it correctly during his emotional outburst. The fact is that we find it odd that the minister talks about fairness when he was party to and perhaps responsible for the imposition of reductions rather than negotiated reductions or settlements, thus admitting failure to be able to negotiate , which is the traditional way that these have been dealt with in the past in Manitoba. I said I do not want to get back into that debate .

1512 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 1994 1be minister wanted to ask me earlier on what I was recommending. Of course, we have made it very clear what we recommended, and that was that there should have been some negotiations as we had done su ccess full y in the past to fonnally save jobs, a free ze on layof f in ret urn for reductions or zero percents and so on in salaries . That is the real way to handle these kinds of situa tions.

This is a fal se way because, in fact, the base continues to grow for sal aries, and once this bill no longer applies, in fact, we have got a higher base for salaries than we had previously. And that has to be paid for by future governm ents. It might have been politically expedient for the short tenn for the minister, for him to try to ju stify to the public at large that he was getting toug h with the public sector workers, but, in fact, it is not long-tenn savings. It is only temporary, and they have to be made up later on.

Get ting back to the issue of professional developm ent, which his staff have identified as a major need in the future, the staff in the school needs to be provided with eff ective opportunities to develop and enhance their skills. Is the minister now saying that, as far as he is concerned, if he has an opportuni ty to remain in this position or his government, and be in government in this province and be the Minister of Education, and, in fact, he would li ke to see a formal end put to paid professional development days, as they have been historic ally known in Manitoba?

Previously 11 days and now 10 days-not all for prof essional development, some for administrative days, some for evalu ation in the schools and so on. But is he saying now that he believes that that is a frill , something that is not required, canno t be ju stified, and therefore should be eliminate d? • (1 450) Mr. Manness: Well , Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I will not be drawn into this debate very far. I mean, I can indicate to the member that I wish the world could return to the way it was.

All the wishing in the world is not going to necessarily provide that if the Minister of Finance, or new Minist er of Fmance, indicates to us that we have a revenue problem and that we are still going to have to deal on the ex penditure side and that education is going to have to have some promi nence in that area. So what I wish is, of course, a return to the old system in all respects, including the funding fonnula we have in place now, which recognizes, by way of dollar suppo rt, this government 's commitment to professional development.

But ultimately the Minister of Finance of the day will dictate through the global revenue consideration how it is that we are going to have to still find possibly savings within the field of educatio n. Now, maybe there will be a different focus. Who knows? Maybe the government will have to come to grips with resolu tions that have been passed by the Association of School Trustees in due course. I am hy pothec ating now , and maybe the governmem of the day and the Treasury Boaro of the day are going to focus on another line of the expe nditure envelope. Who knows? It is ju st too soon to say.

I am not trying to take away a benefit that the member would portray , of course, as a long-run ben efit to education in this pr ovince. I would support his statement, but the rea lity is we are cau ght in a time, which we have not been basically for 40 or 50 years in this country, and we are having to make decisions diffe rent than otherwise have been made in the past. I am just telling him my view in a ph ilosophical sense . Mr. Pl ohman: The minister talks about this being a benefit to education, not to necessarily educators. I am pleased to hear him say that.

By defin ition, if he is talking about other pressures and concerns, he is-and that this is perhaps something that has to be sacrificed-relegating it to a lower priority. I have to ask him how he can rationalize that, when his own department, in the consultations done on this in the programs division, have come to the conclu sion that in fact this is one of the greater needs that is being identified? If he is talking about major change in the education system, how is he going to accomplish it? Is he ju st going to work with teacher education with new teachers?

How are we going to deal with the current teaching st aff throug hout this province that has to confonn or adjust to the changes that are required, in the nature that they might be thrust upon them? Sur e they can do some on weekends and s umm ers and evenings, like they do now. But if the -

May 11, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1513 minister is indicating that it is not a high enough priority to include some time for professional development in the existing school year, as it has been done in the past, then what kind of a message is he sending out to the professionals in the province of Manitoba in education? (Mr. Jack Reimer, Acting Deputy CbaiJperson, in the Clair) Mr. Manness: Mr. Acting Deput y CbaiJperson, it just cannot be my priority. I mean, I am sorry.

During these difficult times, if it is the highest pri ority too of the teachers, then I would say they are also going to have to take that into account. I am telling you, we would not have given these powers to school divisions if teachers themselves had voluntarily agreed to roll back their wages. Then this would never have happe ned. So it not only bas to be a priority of the government, it has to be a priority of the teachers.

If it is a priority of the teachers, which I think it is in some respects, then I would say, if it is the priority to the teachers, then indeed they would voluntarily agree to a 2 percent reduction in their agreed-upon settlements with the local school divisions, and then this would not have been necessary . It still would have been in place. So it is not just the government's priority. It has to be the educators' priority t oo. If it is, then this will come before the hard maintenance of the agreed-upon salaries, won through amitration in most cases, as between teachers and the local school division.

You see, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, it is so easy to put it into the context of the old-think of government. If you do not give money to it, it is not a priority to you. Never is the focus turned to the person who is receiving the money and saying, if it is a priority to you, then we would think then that you would be prepared to take a little bit less and then this still would be in place. You see, it has to be a shared priority, just not the government's. Because in believing that, then that is old-think.

That is saying that government can do everything for everybody, and it is just a matter of shifting priorities, and of course that is the essence throughout the country. I do not care what political party is in place, but that is the essence of all of the difficult decisions that are being made today in provin ces across the land. The member can say, ah, that is a bunch of hokey, but the facts will bear me out. This is happening in NDP administrations, Li beral administrations and Conservat ive administrations across the country. Mr. Plo hman: The minister can talk about old-think, new-think.

We are interested in this government's think now. What we are concerned about is the fact that the minister has to take responsibilit y for the actions he undertakes. He selected those days through the legislation. He selected the professional development days and so then we are talking about his relative priorities. That is what I was zeroing in on with regard to the minister's statements and the fact that I see contradictions between his desire to have major change at a time when he is not ensuring that he is supporting professional development, which is essential to that change.

Does the minister think that there, or is it his plan, is he considering, and let us put it that way because the plan has not been tabled yet, and I expect the minister, as he has indicated, does not want to be definitive about what is in that plan, perhaps it is not fully decided what is going to be in the pl�is he contemplating extending the hours of the day and the length of the school year? I understand the standard day is five and a half hours, or a minimum day is, as I have been told, five-and-a-half-hour school day.

It does not take many minutes in a day over 200 days to make up another 10 days to the school year. Has the minister been considering that as an option in tenns of the number of days that are available for contact to students? Has he also consider ed whether this would be made available as an optional thing for school divisions, schools at the school level, for committees to decide within parameters whether they could alter the school day or the school year? Th ere ha s been some discussion about that in southwestern Manitoba recently, about a four-day week.

I just wondered whether this kind of thing is something that we can

151 4 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 1994 expect to see in the minister's plan that will be coming out hopefully within two months. Mr. Manness: Mr. Acting Deputy Chaiipe rson, right today, I imagine the member is aware that school divisions can extend beyond five and a half. I mean, I only approve one thing, and that is the make-up of the calendar for the year. As far as the length of the day, school divisions today have that option and can go beyond five and a half without my app roval. [interjection] Minimum, five and a half, but they can go far beyond that.

I guess the question is then, are you considering increasing the minimum? I can tell you, we have not internally seriously discussed that issue, and yet I am contemplating throwing that out as a question mark at the time of the forum. Again, I have no strong view on that. I honestly believe that if the school is really focused, and when you look at effec tive schools, an awful lot is done in a five-and-a-half hour day. So I do not have a strong affinity to either, at this point, increasing the school day length and/or even significantly increasing or incre asing at all the school year in terms of days.

I think that there should be discussion around both of those points, and I probably will seek views in coming out with the blueprint, but in all honesty, to me, that is a relatively minor issue associated with refonn . Mr. Plo hman: I have asked the minister what his views are as well on something that was stated at a forum that he was a participant in for princi pals, I believe , at Tee V oc School, not something he said, although I could quote him a lot of things he said because I have-- • (1 500) An Honourable Member: A transcript. Mr. Plohman: No. I kept close touch. Not a transcript. My own transcript.

My own notes . At that time, Gail Watson, the past president of MAST, was speaking as well on the panel, and she talked about Alberta 's situation. She has very strong views, as the minister knows, about what is happening in Al bert a, but the minister never commented on the actions that have been taken in Alberta to any extent. She said that in Alberta they are prepared to risk the future of the next generation, a quote that I took, and now it is a paraphrase because I wrote this. These are my notes, but I recall very clearly her saying that.

Rolling back to a 1930s system was another comment I took down that she ref erenced , going back to the 1930s. She said that superintendents will become inspectors hired by the province.

A basic education is defined only in the narr owest tenns, the three Rs plus social studies and nothing else , and funding will be based on 30 students per class, a student ratio, which means, of course , in terms of contact, it is much higher than that, because when you have a ratio of 1 to 30, in fact, when you consider all the other staf f that are involved, like administration and so on, that in contact tenns, a 1 to 30 teacher-student ratio would probably mean like 1 to 40 or more, 1 to 45. All grants for older students will be cut out.

No educa tion tax can be levied locally, massive layo ffs, and some trustees retained, of course, a number of divisions, I think, cut in half. She said, trustees retained in fe wer numbers, and I do not know whether this is my editorial comment or hers, but I think she said, to cushion the impact or take the blame for the government on these decisio ns. I would not want to on that particular item say that she definitely said that, but I think she referenced the fact that they are more tokenism than real in tenns of decision making.

Now, those are sweeping changes by the Alberta Conservative government, which are- well, it is worth stating. It is of, I think, concern to many people in education that that model may be copied to some extent by this minister. He has not said anything in the Estimates that would indicate he is contemplating anything quite as sweeping as that, although he has not really given us cause to believe that that could not be possib le. It is something that many people would view with a great deal of deep concern and alarm for the future of the public education sys tem in this province.

They are also going into charter schools as well, which I have some of my own biases about and concerns about. Without bringing in that issue , just on some of the changes that are made, the comments made by Gail Watson, rolling back to

May 11 , 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 151 5 the 1930 system, the Daii'Owed definition of basics and the higher student-staff, teacher-student ra tios, does the minister have any concerns about those kinds of moves and would he contemplate those kinds of things in Manitoba? Mr. Manness: I am not going to be drawn very far into these third-party comm ents by a person whom we all respect, the fo101er head of the association of trustees.

I would sense that these are Gail 's intetpretations or the conclusions that she senses will result from some of the actions taken by the Alberta government I have been in conversation with the minister there at meetings, and I have asked, what plan of implementation? It is one thing to state goals and it is one thing to state objectives and bow it is you plan to do things, but quite often it is more difficult to put it into a plan of implementation. I would think that that government is wrestling with some of those issues right now.

I am no more or less intere sted in what is happening in Alberta than any other Minister of Education across the land. I can assur e the member that the NDP Ministers of Education are watching Alberta just as closely as I am, because the fiscal reality in their provinces dictates that they do that. So yes , Alberta certainly seems to be moving on, some would say, a radical but certainly a different app roach, and everybody is watching. I am not losing any sleep over what is happening there. I have my own responsibilities to lead here.

I do not think , within the Manitoba context, that we have as many financial difficulties, because we have managed extremely well, if I do say so myself , over the course of the last six years. A lot of the decisions that we have made have precluded us from having to take some of the very bard measures which app arently are being taken in Alberta at this time.

But just like I would not look kindly on Alberta, a government , a leader there and/or a minister there reflecting on bow we are trying to do things in Manitoba, I am sure they w;,uld be of the same opinion if I were to reflect on activities there , that they would also sense that I bad overstepped my bounds. Mr. Acting Deputy Cbaitperson, theref ore, I will not comment on provinces elsewhere . I never have made a habit of doing that and I will not engage in that at this point. Mr.

Plo bman: I think the minister is quite prepared to reflect on actions in other provinces when it suits his political agenda, and when it does not, obviously be does not want to reflect. As Minister of Finance and in speeches in the House, we have many times beard stories about bow Ontario was doing things in teiDls of finance. His Premier bas been one of the experts at that, I would think, and so this is rather fore ign, for any minister to say that I would never contemplate reflecting on what another province bas done.

As a matter of fact, it is a very positive reflection to be able to indicate wbether-[inter jectio n] It could be a positive reflection for this province if you were to say that be rejects most of the measures undertaken. The minister is not prepared to do that, so then he is not prepared to reflect. I also want to ask the minister about something that was raised-in the interest of time, I am not pursuing that any further, incidentally, insofar as Alberta. There is a lot of discussion that could be undertaken there in teiDls of whether the minister is moving in some of those areas.

But I want to ask about the issue of curri culum and what model will be followed with these teams that the minister is putting in place. When the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) was asking some que stions about this area the other day, I noted the minister's comments regarding emphasis on curric ulum, and I am wondering whether be would agree with the statement that it is not so much the curri culum that is centrally prescribed that is so critical for maintaining some degr ee of uniformity in education in the province , but the standards and the bench marks that are established by the pr ovince.

There has to be much more flexibility in the curriculum in te101s of what is actually the recipe to get there, as long as the students get there and meet those standards and benchmarks , and there is room for flexibility in curri culum. It is standards and bench marks that are the key here.

151 6 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11 , 1994 • (1510 ) Mr. Mannes s: In theory, I suppor t what the member says. I might not have. I mean, coming into this office , I sensed that the only way you could still wolk toward greater unif onnity was a greater focus on a consistency of curr iculum being presented. But through the discussions-and as I said, I will try and stay open-min ded-! have learnt too that there are different ways of doing diff erent things.

I will at this point withstand the pressure being presented by some that we move to a very specific curriculum in some of the core areas, which would allow for lesser experiences with other so urces or differing sources. But then the pressure is going to come very much onto-but then there is going to be added pressure with respect to grad es, gradin g, standards, benchmarks , because we cann ot have it both ways. So to those who of course do not really want that either, but who want standards and/or grades in some terms of some subjective overview, then we are going to have some difficulty.

What some are seeking to do, then, is to maintain the good-faith model which says: Hey, just tell me what the concepts are and let me bring my various sources in; I will bring into the clas sroom from my various ref erence sour ces-one of which may be the provincial textbook or which may not, as one of many so urces . And then let me also do testing or do my evaluation based on subjective measures. I am sorry , that model has fai led, and we are going to have to address it on one or two issues. I do not think right today we can go hard and fast in both areas.

That means there is a hard-fixed curr iculum and a hard-fixed test or evaluation or benchm arks or standards issue, whatever term you want to use. We are heavily involved in discussions around these points, and how can you fa irly then-if then you are going to put this added pressure on, because you still have flexibility on the curriculum side, and I am saying, okay, then if we are going to put added pressure on the standards side, how then do you constitute the test? The member for F1in Pion (Mr. Storie), I know, is keenly interested in this.

He and I have bad a lot of dialogue, and I am sure anybody that has been close to the education community has. That will become a chal lenge, but, my goodness, everybody then better contribute meaningfully to that challenge. If turf protection or some way of moving to where we are now which, in my view, is unacceptable-- results, then obviously we are going to have some probl ems. Mr. Plo hman: Mr. Acting Deputy Cba iiperson, it is interesting to bear the minister diff erentiate on this are a in response to the question.

I think, perha ps, if we went back in some of the Estimates during discussion when he was critic for Education years ago, we might find maybe a more strident view and rigid view on curriculum. We could dig that all out and it migh t be some interesting reading, but we do not have time, quite frankly, for old news. We are more interested in what the minister has to say today rather than trying to find contradictions in what he said years ago. We know they are there- An Honourable Member : So they are hard to find. Mr. Ploh man: No, they are not very hard to find, as a matter of fact.

So, if the minister wants to throw out a chal lenge, we can all do that, but clearly there has always been a diff erence between the printed or prescribed curriculum, the taught curri culum, and the learned curr icul um. Some people have done a lot of writing on this kind of thing, and what we have seen is a tremendous variation because, even though you try to prescribe curriculum centrall y, it very seldom manif ests itself in terms of actually what is being taught in a uniform way in all the class rooms of the prov ince.

Perhaps it is not even desirabl e--! do not believe it is-to have a uniform curriculum across the province for ever y detail as to prescribe precisely how certain outcomes shall be met and how the standards shall be met. I think the key is the standards and the bench marks. If the minister is showing some flexibility in that reg ard and so me inclination to loo k to the standards and the bench marks as the key areas here , then I think he is on the right track, and so I was interested in seeing whet her be did diff erentiate between the two.

I notice , as well, when you look at some of the concerns that were raised in the consultations on

May 11, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 151 7 the reorganization , that one of those that was focused on, No. � needs to be an increased focus on classroom issues and recognition that these needs will be different from region to region and from school to school. So I find a bit of a contradiction when we are trying to prescribe everything that shall happen, recognizing these regional differences and school diff erence s.

That is one of the difficulties with standardized tests, depending on what they are being used for, because of the regional and cultural diff erences , different socioeconomic conditions and so on that impact on the ability and readiness of children to learn certain things at certain times. If there is some flexibility in how the material is taught, as long as ultimately the bench marks and standards are met, then I think we can still accommodate dif fere nces from region to region and school to school. Mr. Manness: Two points , Mr. Acting Deputy Chaiipe rson.

I guess I can say yes, generall y, to the member's comment. That is why I want the department to be very involved in some of the core subject areas. There will be basic concepts there that will have to be learned. Outside of that, if we are going to reach out to the comm unity, there is still a lot of time in the day-the five and a half hours we have talked about-where the community can reflect itself.

I would hope that in some of the other course s however they are constituted and indeed in some of the core sub ject areas that teachers who have these special gifts will take time to introduce to our young people the issues of the day that are important to Canada and to Manitoba. To me, that is what knowledge is all about The department does not need to reflect upon that and/or certainly test for that, but the department, I think , should fo cus its attentions more on some of the core subject areas. Mr.

Plo hman: One other statement that was made in the dialogue, No. 8-t qere should be an increased emphasis on early identification and intervention, since this appro ach is the most eff ective and least costly way of helping students . Does the minister agree with that statement as a principl e? It is not stated as his policy; it is stated as an identified concern by those con sulted. Does the minister endorse that statement? If be does , does be fee l that be is putting sufficient priority on that issue insofar as the reform of education is concerned? (Mr.

Edward Helwer, Acting Deputy Chaiipe rson, in the Olair) Mr. Manness: Well, I certainly agree with the statement in principl e. To that end, the reading recovery pilots that we have now in two divisions are very relevant to us and we will make every effort to shift resowces to the extent that we can to give greater support to this area, because I am more convinced than ever that unless we begin to deal with some of these basic issues at an earlier age, we will end up with a much larger problem at a later age .

I do not know whether society is going to support, and I have said this, a very risky statement on my part; I will say it anyway. I do not know whether the way I see society unfold ing, whether or not many of our citizenry are not the magnitude today, that exists today, will be given a second chance to, I mean, funded by the state at least. Mr. Pl ohman: Second funded chance . Mr. Manness: Second funded chance to improve their skills , their basic literacy skills . So I think then we are going to have to do a better job at the beginnin g. Mr.

Plobman: This is a key area and one in which I agree completely in terms of being the most effective and cost-efficient in terms of the future impact on society.

If we have students who have learning disabilities that are not detected early and go on and languish in the school system, inevitably it is going to cost society more in the long term in terms of not only direct disruption of the classroom and difficulties in dealing with the child in the classroom therefore causing lost productivity for the other students in the class, but to society by way of fru stration and by way of drugs and violence and ultimately perhaps frustrated individu als who will commit serious crimes and who have to be housed in prisons at a cost of

1518 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 1994 $50,000 a year. So it is all very much related.

We have 'to do more in this area, and yet I think that the government would have to be found guilty of not making this a priority over the last number of years. • (1 520) Now, there was one decision taken last year, and I would like the minister to comment on that I will get into this whole issue of protocols for special needs children and who delivers the service and how can we ensure that all the services are available at the earliest possible age for children and what action is being taken there, but we also had the situation where clinicians involved in this type of activity in school divisions across the province were eliminated from the department.

Then school divisions were given a gmnt, albeit not sufficient to cover their total costs, to hire these specialists in their divisions as an employee of the division. In retros pect, considering the minist er's recognition of the importance and the priority placed on this issue, does he not feel that that was a step backward in this area and one that perhaps may have to be addressed as part of reform in order to ensure some equity in providing for these services throughout the provinc e? Mr. Manness: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, answering the last question, no, I do not agree with the member at all.

Our indications are, given that clinicians are now employed by divisions, for the most

part it has gone very well. The sharing model is working. We can detect no apparent problems from where we are today as from where we were previous to that. This is what makes the member and myself belong to different political parties. In principle , and the member brought up the issue under early identification and we agree, in principle we agree, but you see, as he then stated and the record will show that, he seems to say, well, if you throw enough reso�s at it, you will be able to fix the problem, or if you throw more at it than you have been in the past, this government should be able to fix the problem .

Well, the reality, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairpers on, we have thrown an awful lot of money after early ident ification, and we have helped somewhat, but we still have these growing proble ms. So then what is it that we have to do? Somet hing is not working right, even though we share the same principle s. Something is just not quite working as well as we would want. No, it is not It is not. The member then assumes and accepts then it is society 's responsibili ty, in totality then, to deal with this problem. I guess I reject that.

I am saying it is the state 's responsibility to identify where there may be shortcomings in abilities and learning. I also accept that it is the state 's responsibility within the given resources to try and do what it can but not accept for itself as either the final success as to how well the state is doing as to whether or not everybody is su ccessfully brought to the highest level, however you define that. I think this is where we have to tum back to the community and say to the parents , well, this is what we found. This is the short gap coming; this is the gap.

We will try and find the reso urces that we can to help, but you have a signif icant responsibility also, because remember, the child is with us, as we said, five and a half hours a day, and there are other influences in that student 's life which I would say are even more powerful. So to those households then that want to also make a shared commitment to helping and indeed those communities outside of the household who want to make a shared commitment thro ugh volunteer efforts of service clubs and whatever, they are going to have to make that commitment also.

Yes, it is the government 's responsibility to identify. It is the governmen t's responsibility to the extent we have resources through reading recovery. We hope that is a better thrust, and we will do what we can, but I think it is fo olhardy to leave the false expectations there that if there were even unlimited funding, we could do it all. That is what makes the member opposite and me diff erent . That is what makes him di ffere nt, because he will try and leave with society the fal se expectation that it is a money issue. Put more -

May 11, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 151 9 money at it and you will, after the early identification, be able to provide the solution. I am saying no. Even if we did have all the resources available to us, or even if we shifted them all into this very identifiable nee d, that in itself would not do it. I guess that is what makes the difference between him and me. We know that we are going to have to make some of the changes.

They will never satisfy the community in totality, but the community to be totally satisfied is also going to have to be a real partner in this attempt to identify early, react early, and that is why I am so convinced that these standards that we talk about have to be imposed at an earlier age in a diagnostic sense so that we know if any gap exists as early as possible. Mr. Plohma n: We ll, the minister un fairly characterizes our position.

Of course, it is very unfair because he is not considering that we may take issue with the priorities and decision making that he has undertaken in terms of the approach and its impact insofar as efficien cies. We are not convinced that this appro ach that was undertaken last year with clinicians and specialists was the most efficient way to go. The minister is talking about throwing unlimited amounts of dollars . That is not what I am saying.

What I am saying is that it is more efficient to have a team appro ach, where you have all of those specialists who are available to deal with a myriad of different kinds of difficulties that are out there in terms of identification and early intervention. It is way beyond what one school division or even a group of school divisions in a particular geographic area could contemplate in terms of specialists. They canno t afford it, but if they are housed central ly, they can respond. It is a team ap proach and therefore much more efficient at dealing with the proble m. So that is what we are saying to the minister.

I mean, he bas adopted the team approach in Curriculum. Instead of having individual specialists for each subject, he is taking a team approach, and I think that is not a bad way togo. I think it is an excellent way to go with regard to identification of special needs proble ms, and I think the minister has gone the wron g way here . It has nothing to do-- well, it has something to do with dollars but that is not the major overriding concern here. As a matter of fact, it took some time before the minister even admitted there were any dollars saved last year in this change .

It is a different way of doing it, and I was asking the minister about that, whether he felt this was a better way, it was more producti ve, it was more efficient and met the needs better. The minister went on a tirade about differences between him and I in terms of spending money . I recognize that there is also a community responsibility. • (15 30) I know that many of these parents are at their wits' end in trying to deal with behavioural problems particula rl y, which come about as a result of some other problem.

If the child bas a hearing problem or some other disruption to their development, very often behaviour is the way this is manifested. Those parents are at their wits' end and they have nowhere to tum for help. Their children then are ultimately going to end up costing society a lot more , so why not the team appr oach? The specialists are there to be sent out to deal with these kinds of situations.

Also the diagnostic centre which was there to accommodate diagnosis and prescription for treatment to plan a program for children from rural Manitoba, that was eliminated by this government I have to say that completely contradicts the minister's understanding of the need to deal with this prob lem. If he was not responsible last year directly , then he has an opportunity now as a new minister to perhaps take another look at this issue and see whether it is not a better way to go and perhaps say, well, I would like to move away from what we did last year. I think it was wrong. Mr. Manness: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, I have to rej ect most of the statement made by the member. I do not see where the team approach, to use the words of the member, has been violate d. The employer is different, yes. The employer is no longer the department The employer is a division and/or a group of divisions. I do not know why the source of employment breaks down any team

1520 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 1994 approach. There may be some slightly differe nt roles than existed in the past-[interjection] Ob, so it is not the team app roach be is talking about. It is the resources be is talking about. I am saying, in my view, we maintain the service enhanced, and what is wrong with that? I thiok the client bas better service today because the employer is not the department but indeed is the division and so the client is closer to the resource. I say that nothing is materially changed except the employer.

The team app roach still is-if it bas value, its value is made continuous because of the willingness of people to work together, and nothing bas prevented that. Mr. Plo bman: I am not going to say too much else except to say the minister is oversimplifying this issue.

He is forge tting in his respome that when you have a variety of professionals available, made possible by the sheer numbers of students who are being serviced by one jurisdiction, that being the province as opposed to school divisions, then you can respond more accurately with the kinds of prof essionals that are needed for a particular situation than school divisions can now because of their limited numbers. They only have one of these allocated for what-is it 700 students-! do not know what the number is. I think it is 700.

I know in the city of Winnipeg under Division 1, they have a much lower ratio of one to 390 students. But the province 's ratio of support, I believe, is on the basis of one to 700. The minister can correct me if I am wrong. [interjection] The point is though, there are very few of them in a division. That is my point. They cannot afford to hire the kinds of specialists, because there is be aring im pair ment, spee ch pathologists, behavio ral psycholog ists , many diff erent prof essions within this discipline. They are spe cialists, and you cannot have all of them within a particular division or even a region.

You can have more of them available if you bouse them centrally and respond as need be. That was the concep f. and that is why I am questioning the minister on it. I think be should address that, part of it, rather than just simply trying to confuse the issue by saying that it is a matter of our advocating and throwing all kinds of money at a problem and not recognizing limitations in res ources . We recognize there are limitations in reso urces , but there are two aspects to this, prioriqes, and it is the way it is done. Both are important. Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster) : I wanted to ask a number of questions in this area still . The first is to just pick up on what the member for Dauphin was talking about with ref erence to the actual curriculum. The minister made reference to the bard, fixed curriculum, or there was discussion about a hard, fixed curriculum.

I am wondering if the minister could comment to the extent that there might be a need to have some sort of local discretionary authority for possibly the principal to be able to look at individual students and make some sort of a value judgment, whether or not it is in that student 's best interest to be taking a particular course? Mr. Manness: The question is put in very general terms; therefore, I will give a general answer. My general answ er would be yes, but within the core subje ct areas and those leading to greater literacy, those leading to greater understanding and comfort or ease of manipulation.

I am thinking computing and mathematics. Those in my view have to be made pretty uniform across the provin ce. But within the school day there is an awful lot of opportunity for the community to reflect itself, and I dare say even by way of curriculum in a number of other subjects. Mr. Lamoureux: The other day I had mentioned the individuals, and I had asked the minister in terms of he might even have been made aware of it He indicated that in fact it does happen, when you get someone graduating from Grade 12 and not being able to read or write .

I have had some discussions with, in particular, adm inistrators with respe ct to, how does something of that nature happen? It was indicated to me by at least one individual,

whereas they do not have too much of a choice in the sense that you have a core curriculum which dictates that you have to teach this, in some cases it might not necessarily be in that child's best interest, possibly -

May 11, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1521 because of an inabil ity, if you like, whether it is through fe tal alcohol syndrom e. There are some problems that are in fact there. I am wondering if the minister could comment in tenns of whether be sees some flexibility in that specific area of the core curr iculum where a valued opinion from , say, an administrator at a local level is that this particular student maybe should be spending more time and effort in an industrial arts program as opp osed to as much time in some of the other areas? Mr. Manness: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, I am flabbergasted by the comment from the Liberal I mean, today society is going to have to give a fo cus in our industrial arts and indeed within our vocational education system like it has never given before. I dare say, if it is not happening now it will happen in such dimension in the next couple of years. The so- called deemed to be better students are going to be focusing their futures and their attention on some of the vocational courses in a technical side like never has been the case . That is what we have to take into account when we provide the blueprint.

It is something that we are trying to come to grips with inte rnall y. I can fo resee when the demand to move into those courses is going to be by students of all ability, and we are going to have to come to grips with that. • (1 540) The member , I do not know what he is suggesting. I sense he is suggesting that there are inherent reasons, no fault of the child, of the student, as to why they cann ot achieve at a level that is consistent with what we would hope and want. I do not know what he is saying in his statem ent.

Is be saying, well, take that into account and make sure that student then proceeds orderly through the school period and is not held back, taking into account that reali ty? I am not troubled with that, personal ly. All I am saying is, though, the standards that apply to the grade average have to be at a level that significantly challenges those who are going to make up the reality of society in the years to come. That is not necessarily the individual to whom you refer. It is not necessaril y the very, very gifted person to whom the member did not refer.

Indeed, my concern is the great, great majority who had to be challe nged at a higher level and the standards that apply to them and, as importantly , the honesty with which we make the system accountable to their better understanding as to how they are doing . That is what will drive me. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Acting Deputy Chaitperson, the reason why I bring it up is that the minister was making refere nce to that hard-core curriculum and the vocational schools , industrial arts or whatever. No doubt there is, I would argue, a demand today for those sorts of courses, and it will continue to increase.

There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever. 1be question that I was asking the minister to be more specific on, and he did answer it, if not indi rectly , was the individual decision or the possibility of having the local authority to be able to have some discretionary power on what is in the best interests of the student. The minister has indicated that authority would in fact be there. I am not convinced that it is there right now, and that is the reason why I put forw ard the question. I wanted to move on to the reshuffling that was done within the department .

I know the minister had made reference to the regional teams as being one of the higher priorities for repl acements. Under the regional teams he used the example of I believe it was the Parkland, and with in the Parkland for example there is-[inte rje ction] Parklan d-Westman, the member for Dauphin points out-that there are , from what I see , currently six vacancies in that area, two from within Parkland- Westman. I am wondering if the minister can give some sort of indication when he believes that they will be up to staff . Mr.

Manness: In the examples ref erenced by the member, one of the pos itions, vacancies , has just been fille d. One is still vacant but will be fill ed after the full impact of the reorganization has been fe lt through the organi zation. We give very high priority to filling these vacancies. Mr. Lamoureux: The minister made reference to, un der the education reform I believe it was

1522 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 1994 supposed to be nine individuals that were going to be brought aboard, six for Cwriculum, one for the library resource, two for Distance Education. Would these individuals now be in place , or are they looking for these individuals curre ntly? Mr. Manness: No, these positions have not been fill ed. They though are a very important placement to us, but more importantly than filling them is to find the right people to fill them. I mean, these are crucial positions. Mr.

Lamoureux: The minister had indicated that the regional teams were in fa ct a priority, and just going through the number of vacancie s, there seems to be a good number of vacancies through the department . I am wondering with these new positions being created and there is the-I do not know if you want to call it unwritten or a statement that the minister made in terms of 5 percent, a general rule 5 percent for vacancies. I am wondering what sort of impact that particular rule is going to have on the hiring or filling of the positions in the regional teams . Mr.

Manness: I think I answ ered that question yesteiday. It is part of the record. I said that within that general guide line-and the government vacancy right now is not too far away from it-but within our department that we have to set into place priorities. We always do have positions that come open, but to the extent that we have to fill a position here or somewh ere else, or another division in the department, I mean this one will receive the higher priority. Mr. Lamoureux: Can the minister indicate what percentage we are at right now of vacancy? Mr. Manness: As a dep artment? Mr. Lamoureux: Yes. Mr.

Manness: As I said, at the end of the last fiscal year, end of March, we were at 7.2 percent, and last month that is dropping off to a little below 7 percent . It cycles. It cycles from department to department. Pot the whole year, indeed for '93-94, when the same guideline was in place, it seemed to me the average vacancy was 4.8 for the department for the whole year. Mr. Lamoureux : Mr. Act ing Deputy Chairperson, in terms of actual numbers, what would that worlc out to? Mr. Manness: On a base of 700 employ ees, we are looking at roughly 35 positions. Mr.

Lamoureux: In going through some of the vacant positions there is- Mr. Manness: I am sorry for interrup ting, Mr. Acting Deputy Cha.iipe rson. The member should realize that if we went to 100 percent employment, the best that we could ever achieve as a government, I mean we would have-it would alm ost be impossible to drive the vacancy rate below 2. 5 to 3 percent. It would almost be impossible to drive it lower. To give a specific answer, 71 2 total positions at 5 percent, the guideline then would call for 35 staff years to be vacant. Mr.

Lamoureux: I have noticed that there are in fact currently a couple of current Curriculum vacancies right now out of the department. I take it that those would be a higher priority also than , let us say, the regional tea ms. Where would the Cwriculum consultants fill in for vacancies that are curre ntly there, or are there any current vacancies in Curr iculum Development? • (15 50) Mr. Manness: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, we thrashed this all out yesterday . We spent a considerable time doing so.

I do not mind re-entering it all into the record, but as I said yesteiday, and I will try and be very brief, as we come to a clearer understanding how our protocols are going to worlc with other provin ces, and as we get a clearer understanding of the reform package, then we will begin to fill the remaining positions within the Curriculum Develo pment area. Mr.

Lamoureux: My apologies if the minister fe els that it is somewhat repetitive , but I still am interested in knowing now-unf ortunately , we do not have yesterday 's Hansard-if you like , in terms of what the curre nt number of Cwriculum consultant positions that are vacant. -

May 11, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1523 Mr. Manness: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairpers on, I remind the member that we have changed around the reorganization. It does not lend itself to a compar ison, as similar as it might have been in other years. I point out to them that within the ed reform package , out of the nine positions as shown, eight are going to be directed towards Curriculum.

We hope to fill them, or a significant number of them, by the end of June and within the regions, well, in two parts: six in one part, Curriculum Development; and the other two were also Cur riculum Develo pment but in a computer-assisted learning area. So they are all program development consultants . Then within the regiom, there are five vacancies out of a total of, I think it was, 33. Mr. La moureux : Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairper son , I know that in terms of the reorganizing of the department itself, you bring in a new initiative in terms of education reform and allocate out a considerable amount of dollars and sa y that you are going to be hiring some individuals to deal with curriculum, if you like , and then yet we have a number of positions that are in fact vacant. I am wondering why that would be, why you would not be necessarily hiring, at the very least, individu als to fill these positions and possibly put them, on an interim basis, on the regional teams or whatever. Mr.

Manness: We just ann ounced the change to the field a month ag o, and we are trying to fill these vacancies as quickly as possible . We filled one last week. As I have stated again, we will try and fill as many as we can by the end of June, but you must remember there are procedures in place. There is still impact of some of our previous staff. There are redeplo yment issues here. The member should know that. He has been in gover nment long enough.

There are some other people within government and within the department who have now found their way to the redepl oyment list because of decisions made elsewhere, and they have to have an opportunity and a time to determine whether or not they fit these positions . That is the very meaning of the redeployment process. Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, yes, again I will try and reflect more detail. We still do not have a cle aned-up copy, but we will endeavour to have that in place for tom orrow. (Mr. Deputy Chailperson in the Chair) Mr.

Lamoureux: All I know is that I get representation and it is saying , look, industrial arts, phys ed consultant, gifted education consultant, English as a second language-there was some concern with respect to a co-ordinator from the heritage language which the member for Dauphin had mentioned, and there were some vacancies that are curre ntly in place . The minister talks about establishing priorities. Is he talking about the new individuals coming from education ref orm plus filling these vacancies, and none of those are going to be dealing with those that I just finished listing off. Mr.

Manness: I cannot answ er that question right now. I have listed out the prioritie s. Obviously , some of the areas the member reads out because he has been heavily lobbied to ask this question. I mean, I have frozen the firings-or pardon me, the hirings. We ll, which sounds better, though? I have fr ozen the fir ings. That is kind of a partial alliteration. As I have indicated, we are putting our priorities into other places right now, and ultimately how and when and if these positions are filled, the hard ones are the ones put on the record by the member for Inkster and yesterday by the member for Dauphin. Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, that will be determined in due course . Mr. Lamoureux: I do not realize why the minister would take great off ence to some questions that he might have fe lt were asked yesterday. I have seen duplication of questions within Question Period itself. A minister tends to give different answers even to the same questions at diff erent times. The minister is expandin g the whole Curriculum area, or at least making the commitment to expand the whole Curriculum area. I think it is fair to ask the minister to try to give more clarity to the issue of what he intends to do with some of the areas in

1524 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 11, 1994 which he has cut in the past. If he is hiring additional individuals to deal with the curriculum as consultants/co-ordinators there should be some sort of an indication of whether or not ones that have been cut are going to be reinstated. If he does not want to give that sort of clarification, that is fine. I will go on to the reform area where he mentioned two pilot pro jects, one which was with respect to the special nee ds. Under this particular area, I wonder if the minister could give a bit of detail on that.

Hopefull y, that question was not asked yesterday. Mr. Manness: We are doing no pilot with respect to special needs. We are doing a special needs review. Mr. Lamoureux: Can the minister indicate what that will include? Mr. Mannes s: I can, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, but I would ask to wait for some information to come tome. What we are proposing to do is to identify all special ed programs and services provided by divisions and districts throughout the prov ince. We do not have a strong catalogue of the programming throughout our province.

We would like to exa mine the operational eff ec tiveness of provincial policies and special education. I mean, we have heard the word "effectiveness" being used and we are going to try and determine if it is done better in some areas as compared to others. We have all been working in this for several years now. It is time to do an eff ectiveness analyses . •

(1600) We would like to review the quality and cost eff ec tiveness of specia l ed programs in our province , given that we have some benchmarks of compa rison. We wo uld like to review the ef fec tiveness and eff iciency of the current provincial funding me chanisms in meeting the intent of the provincial policy dire ctions in Special Education. This is a program that obviously has grown in significance now for, what, 15-20 years, and it is time to do an evaluation. That is what we propose to do. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr.

Deputy Chairpers on, I know one of the concerns that has been brought to my attention with special needs is in fact the funding formula. The argument that I have heard is that the province is not contributing the actual cost, if you like , of having this particular program instituted throughout the province.

I know, for examp le, in Winnipeg School Division No. 1, where there is a higher per capita of special nee ds students, there tends to be more reliance on the school boards to make up for some of the shortfalls of the government 's inability to provide enough resources to be able to service special needs students. I am wondering if the minister might want to comment on that. Mr. Manness: Well , I have no comment to provide. I am aware of the arguments also, basically, but the reality is, this is not a funding issue, this is a society issue.

I mean, we have to decide , we have to do the evaluations and see whether or not the present model is one that we want to continue to support either in greater or lesser fashion into the next century. Mr. Lamoureux: Could the minister indicate whether or not he believes that the financing does cover the cost of the special needs, the current financing? Mr. Manness: Yes, I think our support is fair under the circumstances . What else can I say, Mr. Deputy Chairperson?

I mean, the funding formula is in place, I believe an adjustment was made again two years ago again to take into account the view of some and obviously the view of the government that maybe the funding was not quite adequate , and so we provided a 20 percent increase in this one envelope in 1992-93 funding changes in the levels. So today, in Level II we provide $8,520 for each pupil identified, and we also pay $18, 960 for Level m. Then, of course , we also provide for the severely-so those are the increased lev els under support under Levels II and m. Mr.

Lamoureux: Under Level I, from what I understand, it is based more on a percentage and, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am wondering if the minister can indicate or give me a better idea in terms of the Level I special needs student in terms - -

May 11 , 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1525 of bow the percentage dollars are broken down, not the actual numtJer of dollars, but I am referring to I believe it is 5 percent or the actual percentage . Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I do not know if be is talking about percentage of students who are in Level !-[int erjection] The member is right in his latter comments. We just take the number of students within the school division, divide that eligible enrollment by 180 and multiply by $43,700, but that money bas to then be spent If a lesser amount is spent, then that is what is received. Mr.

Lamoureux: I am wondering if the minister would acknowledge that there are some school divisions that might have a higher percentage than other school divisions of special needs student, or does be find that that is not the case? Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairpers on, that is the way we used to do it It became such a bureaucratic nightmare because it called upon resources of school divisions and departmental staff at such a high level, we were spending so much money on book wor k and monitoring that this was an agreed-upon approach, acceptable to the school divisions and all. Mr.

Lamoureux: I am sutprised that all school divisions would have agreed to it. I know if you take a look at demographics of the province of Manitoba, socioeconomic strata, that there might be an argument, and I would put it forward that there is a need for some variances between the school divisions . I would ask the minister specif ically if his review will take this into account. Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, it seems in this job you are damned if you do and you are damned if you don' t. You set up advisory committees to try and openly consult with people. The former minister, Mr.

Derkacb, set up an advisory committee to deal specifically with this problem and this iss ue. He sought wide-ranging views and they came in, and I am led to believe that �e majority of you strongly supp orted, let us say we go to the model that we do and then we abandoned the old model which, of co urse- well, they recommen ded staying with the model that bad been introduced back, I believe in 1986, introduced by the other government, the government before us, and not to go back to what bad been in place before then. That is what we have done, except we have also put

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-5-25
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 5th hansardpdf 25.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	3eb9a1acb4d6d3ae090d06f8a6a435f13e5f8dca

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