Manitoba Hansard — 14 May 1971 (Sitting 40, 29th Legislature, 3rd Session)

29-3-40

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable Peter Fox Vol.XVlll No.40 10:00a.m., Friday, May14th,1971. Third Session, 29th Legislature. Printed by R. S. Evans - Queen's Printer for Province of Manitoba

ELECTORAL DIVISION ARTHUR ASSINIBOIA BI RTLE-RUSSELL BRANDON EAST BRANDON WEST BURROWS CHAR LESWOOD CHURCHILL CRESCENTWOOD DAUPHIN ELMWOOD EMERSON FLIN FLON FORT GARRY FORT ROUGE GIMLI GLADSTONE INKSTER KILDONAN LAC DU BONNET LAKESIDE LA VERENDRYE LOGAN MINNEDOSA MORRIS OSBORNE PEMBINA POINT DOUGLAS PORTAGE LA PRAIRIE RADISSON RHINELAND RIEL RIVER HEIGHTS ROBLIN ROCK LAKE ROSSMERE RUPERTSLAND ST. BONIFACE ST. GEORGE ST. JAMES ST. JOHNS ST. MATTHEWS ST. VITAL STE.

ROSE SELKIRK SEVEN OAKS SOURIS-KILLARNEY SPRINGFIELD STURGEON CREEK SWAN RIVER THE PAS THOMPSON TRANSCONA VIRDEN WELLINGTON WINNIPEG CENTRE WOLSELEY NAME J. Douglas Watt Steve Patrick Harry E. Graham Hon. Leonard S. Evans Edward McGill Hon. Ben Hanuschak Arthur Moug Gordon Wilbert Beard Cy Gonick Hon. Peter Burtniak Hon. Russell J. Doern Gabriel Girard Thomas Barrow L. R. (Bud) Sherman Mrs. Inez Trueman John C. Gottfried James Robert Ferguson Hon. Sidney Green, O.C. Hon. Peter Fox Hon. Sam Uskiw Harry J. Enns Leonard A. Barkman William Jenkins Walter Weir Warner H.

Jorgenson Ian Turnbull George Henderson Donald Malinowski Gordon E. Johnston Harry Shafransky Jacob M. Froese Donald W. Craik Sidney Spivak, Q.C. J. Wally McKenzie Henry J. Einarson Hon. Ed. Schreyer Jean Allard Laurent L. Desjardins William Uruski Hon. A. H. Mackling, O.C. Hon. Saul Cherniack, 0.C. Wally Johannson D. J. Walding A. R. (Pete) Adam Hon. Howard Pawley Hon. Saul A. Miller Earl McKellar Hon. Rene E. Toupin Frank Johnston James H. Bilton Ron McBryde Hon. Joseph P. Borowski Hon. Russell Paulley Morris McGregor Philip M. Petursson J. R. (Bud) ifoyce Leonard H.

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THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 10:00 o'clock, Friday, May 14, 1971 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speake r. MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting· Reports by Standing and Special Committees . INTRODUC TION OF GUES TS 921 MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed, I should like to direct the attention of the honour able members to the gallery where there are 11 students of Grade 12 standing. of the Surrey High School, North Dakota. These students are under the direction of Mr. McDaniel, Mrs. Daugherty and Mrs . Kraft.

There are also 14 students of Grade 12 standing of the Munich High School in North Dako ta, United States. These students are under the direction of Mr. J. Demaine and Mr. Buckle. Also in the gallery there are 80 students of Grade 11 standing, of the Miles MacDonnell Collegiate. These students are under the direction of Mr. Kattermann, Mr. Wiebe and Mrs. Lowden. This school is located in my own constituency of Kildonan. We also have 13 Senior Grade students of the Alvarado High School of Minnesota, U. s. A. These students are under the direction of Mr. Wilke.

On behalf of all the honourable members of the Legislative Asse mbly, I welcome you here today. REPORTS BY STANDING COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: Adjourned debates. On the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Radisson. The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. JAC0B M. FROESE (Rhineland) : Mr. Speaker, after hearing the Minister of Finance last night you're almost tempted to digress from the report before us and make some comments on what he had to say, but I'll have to defer that to some other time. Mr.

Speaker, the report that we are dealing with, namely the Agricultural Committee's Report, of the work that the committee did in between sessions, outlines the numbers of things that they have tried to look into, investigate, and also some recommendations as to what should be done by way of legislation and also by way of recommendation. Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that agriculture in Manitoba is too much a forgotten lot. Too much or too little is done for the agricultural industry in Manitoba.

I would like to congratulate the government on having these various meetings throughout the province last year because I think it is valuable for honourable members to get out into the country and see firsthand and hear firsthand from the people as to their concerns, their mis fortunes , and also what they feel should be done in the way of rectification of the industry and also of the agricultural program in Manitoba.

I was not a member of the committee; however, I attended various meetings and made it a point to travel some distances in order to be in at tendance at meetings outside of my immediate area and to see whether the concerns of the people in my area were in accordance with what people thought elsewhere. I notice, though, that the government, the NDP Party, was also conducting meetings of their own at the same time that these meetings were held, and it rather appeared to me that there was a certain amount of prompting going on to . . . -- (Interjection) -- MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism -- Order!

Does the Honourable Minister of Tourism have a point of order? HON. PET ER BUR TNIAK (Minister of Tourism, Recreation, and Cultural Af fairs) (Dauphin): Yes, I wish to dispute the statement that the honourable . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. MR. BURTNIAK: member has just made. MR, SPEAKE R: Order, please. If the honourable member wishes to state his point I'm willing to listen, but I will not and cannot allow a disputation of facts. The Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation. MR. BUR TNIAK: Well, all right then. I'm sorry, Mr.

Speaker, but I don't believe it is a correct statement that the Honourable Member for Rhineland makes.

922 May 14, 1971 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The honourable gentlemen can have an opportunity to debate the point of correctness of the other member's statement. The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: I must have hit a nerve somewheres. It just so happened that I attended the Roblin meeting, and the night before .this particular meeting there was a meeting sponsored by the NDP, and I went over to it and had a discussion with some of the people in attendance - this was at Roblin, and there may well have been others that I'm not aware of. Certainly I didn't attend all of the meetings.

So -- (Interjection) -- Yes, why not? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON, EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier) (Rossmere): Will he confirm whether I heard him correctly that he, of all people, attended a meeting sponsored by such dangerous radicals as the NDP of Roblin? MR. FROESE: Mr. Speaker, it just so happened that I didn't know that this was being sponsored by their group. I came into the town and here there were quite a few cars standing at this particular hall, so I went in and inquired and this is what I found.

But this led me to the belief that there was certain prompting going on by the government to the farmers in the various areas to propose certain things along their ideas and which would go along their proposals. So, Mr.

Chairman, I think some of the recommendations that came forth from these meetings were certainly in line with the government's idea and the government's programs, that the alter native that they mention, and especially to the Federal Government's Task Force Report, and while I certainly don't subscribe to that report either, and I think there's a suggestion made by the Minister of Agriculture as far as an income plan for farmers, was much superior to that of the Federal Government, because the Provincial Government's one was based on ;net income and not on gross income, which makes all the difference.

You can have a large gross income but yet not have any net income at all because of your increase in expenditures, and therefore any program that should be brought in, I think should be based - as was suggested by the Min ister of Agriculture - on net income. There are numerous things that I would like to mention in connection with the report, but, Mr. Speaker, I think too many things were left out.

I think it's very deficient, the report that we have before us, because there were many important matters brought to the attention of the committee which are never and have not been commented on in the report, and I for one would like to bring to the attention some of these very matters.

The Plum Coulee Farm Management Group, which is a group of young farmers that at tended the special courses, a special course given in that area that was sponsored by the gov ernment, and these young farmers submitted a brief to this committee in Winkler and they have some very good recommendations in their particular report on which I would like to comment and also on which recommendations I think this committee should have acted.

We for one have the matter of drainage, and this is a point that I've raised in the House every year because I feel we are lax in not bringing .about a better program for drainage in rural Manitoba. The program that we've been following is not developing fast enough; it is too slow and in the mean time we are losing a very valuable asset, which is our topsoil.

We have had, some years ago, what they called the "Save the Soil Campaign." Certainly this is a matter that should receive very close attention by the Department of Agriculture, because once the surface soil is lost it can never be reclaimed, and to put it back in will take years and years, actually generations, and even at that you•d have to spend a lot of money in order to bring back fertility.. The pro gram, if it was enhanced, certainly could prevent a lot of sc ouring and erosion that is presently taking place, especially so in southern Manitoba.

It prevents farmers from planning a good rotation of crops; it prevents them from putting in a program whereby they can summer fallow land, because if you do summerfallow and you have floods like you have this year and you've had the last three years now, your topsoil just washes away and you have the barren ground left.

We had just in the one ward, Ward 2 in the Rhineland Municipality which is right next to the U. s. border, where we have between 300 and 400 acres which are practically ruined, and when I say ruined I mean ruined; and if this land valued, let's say at $200. 00 an acre, this is $80, OOO of damage just in that one ward. You don't have to have a large program to just compensate -- being compensated by the soil loss in one year. I had an opportunity to go through the area with Mr.

John Wheeler who is the councillor out there, and I would at this time recommend to the government that we construct an open channel right along the U.S. border, inside the Canadian border and parallel to the U.S. bound ary, from a point where the two municipalities of Rhineland and Stanley meet and then from � L

May 14, 1971 923 (MR. FROESE cont'd) • . . . . there east to the Red River. The cost of such a channel would be, in my opinion, very nominal to costs of channeling ordinarily because you have no bridges to contend with. The only crossings would be border crossings at Gretna and one on 81 High way, so that the cost would be very small compared to normal channeling where you have to have bridges almost at every section, and this is the big cost factor.

By having an open channel of this type, maintenance would also be very easy and much less costly than normally, and I feel that the government should take this into consideration and bring about such a project, because to keep on this way it's very frustrating for the farmers in those areas. They never know how to work their land, and when an industry is already depressed this just contributes to further depression.

We notice from the Finance Minister's speech last night that there will be and there are new negotiations for another federal ARDA Agreement under way, and I would ask him to make sure that southern Manitoba for once will also benefit from these agreements that include drain age as one of the factors and being brought into this agreement. Surely, Mr. Speak er, this would also bring better relations with our neighbours across the line. It would certainly bring a halt and also a calm to the hostility that develops from time to time, and when we have another monument just further west on the U.

S. border, namely the Peace Gardens, which is supposed to be symbolic between the two nations as forever not taking up arms against each other but have peace, I think in order to bring that about and make that a more lasting monument, I feel that we should correct this issue to really tell the peope that we mean what we say when we are supporting the other venture. I think there are further monies to be spent in that area this year as well.

So there are many advantages to this - in fact they're all advantages and I can't see any disadvantages in the whole thing at all, and I would at this time like to really appeal to the gov ernment and the Minister concerned to take this in account and bring about some development in the area.

Certainly when we discuss the Pembina Dam, which would also be an asset in cur tailing flooding, but for the moment I can•t see where this will be coming up within the next two or three years, so I think we should look for ways and means of bringing about a more immedi ate solution to this problem and I think the open channel along the border would do just that.

This is not to detract from having the Pembina Dam brought in, because here I feel too that this should be a project that should be under consideration as well, under active consideration, so that this could also be brought about because certainly it would be advantageous to Manitoba to have this, It would give us a better water supply to the local towns in the area; it would give us water supply to our own town at Winkler which is now dependent on well water and the Water Supply Board takes its water from underground.

We don't know how long this will last and es pecially if our centers, our communities do grow, and I hope they do, so that we will have in future some 50, OOO population of these centers. I think our government is not realizing the potential of so uthern Manitoba and is not con tributing suf ficient aid to the development of that area, and the Pembina Dam certainly would be one project that would contribute to development. It would provide recreational facilities to the whole of southern Manitoba which now has to go for quite long distances in order to avail them selves of resort facilities.

It would definitely be an asset as far as flooding is concerned. It would provide water for irrigation purposes to bring about secondary industries, and expand industries such as we have, as the canning industry, and also bring about others. Mr. Speaker, I can't speak too strongly about these very matters when considering the Agricultural Committee's report that is before us at the present time. Special crops are grown in the area. We have a large number of crops that are normally not grown and also that have been developed in that area. Buckwheat. Where did it originate? Where was it first grown?

Right in the southern Manitoba area, right in our home area, and now it's developed into a big cash crop. Japan is very interested in the product; they buy large quantities of it. Before that, Israel and other countries were buying it and they use it for specialties. They tell me the meal is used for edible purposes and the shell is being used for filling pillow cases, and it's appar ently a very good fill, one that has a special value in humid countries where they feel that this is the best they can get, so that nothing of the product is actually lost when it is shipped across to these other countries.

We have the canning crops I mentioned, and here I think we could have a large extension; they are pres ently mainly canning corn, peas and beans. Certainly there could be development in other crops to be canned. Tomatoes have been tried at one time but they were discontinued, but I am sure if we had the water there for irrigation purposes, our farmers would develop new

924 May 14, 1971 (MR. FROESE cont'd) . . . . . crops for canning purposes. The sunflower industry was certainly started in southern Manitoba. We are shipping both roasting seeds to other countries in large quantities, and in bulk form. We have our oil. extrac tion plant at Altona which doubled its capacity last year, and now they are embarking on another program of expanding it almost threefold, so that this is becoming a very big industry in Mani toba.

Not only is it now a Manitoba industry,now we find that the provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta are also going in for sunflowers and that the market is developing and expanding very fast. We have other crops that I could mention: field peas, sugar beets, and many others; but Mr.

Chairman, I don't want to spend too much of the committee's time on this but certainly there is a large potential in this area that needs to be developed and the only way we can go about it and do it, is to provide the necessary water, flood protection and so on, so that I think the report before us is very deficient in this area and that much more attention should have been paid by the committee in reporting to this House on this very matter. Mr. Speaker, I would like to comment on some of the other matters, and one of them is margin.

I feel that the farmers today are not getting a proper return for the commodities that they sell. This certainly is and has been the case for many years now.

We find labour in creasing its wages year after year, yet the farmer is still receiving the same price that he received in the early 401s, and in some cases less, and yet it seems that no one is prepared to take action on this matter and I feel that if the Canadian Wheat Board, the Crown agency of the Federal Government, and the organizations supporting that agency are not willing to come about with some better alternatives, that we should abolish that board and have free trade. Certainly in Manitoba we could do a number of things to bring about better prices.

For one, I think we should extend the railway from Gypsumville to Thompson or to that northern railway going to Churchill, because there is a saving in shipping through that port and why should not the Manitoba farmer reap that benefit from that port? I think I should get the support from the Minister of Highways and other northern members in this matter because look what they had in British Columbia. They had the P. G. Railway which went nowhere and was a white elephant and didn 1t bring any return to the province. What did they do?

Social Credit developed it, ex tended it up north, and now today it's a paying proposition. It's bringing revenue to the govern ment and it's certainly providing much better service to the people of British Columbia. In this case, I wouldn't mind if that part of it was made a Crown corporation and extended. Certainly not, because if private industry won't do that, then I think it's upon us to see to it that it will be done, and I feel that the port of Churchill should be developed to a much greater extent than what we have seen, because right now who is doing the developing as far as the port ?

It's only the Federal Government. Why shouldn't we spend more money as a province in developing that port and making more use out of it ? Certainly the 28 or 30 ... MR. SPEAKER : Order, please. I am sure the honourable gentleman could get the part about Churchill into some of his other debates. I do not think it is really part of the debate of the Report of the Agricultural Committee. Would he confine himself to his remarks on the Agricultural Committee Report ? MR. FROESE: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

I was talking about the deficiencies in the report and this is one of the deficiencies in the report, that I feel that we have to bring about better prices and a better return to the farmers, and this is one way of doing it, to use that facility for giving a better return to our farmers, and the 28 or 30 million bushels of wheat that is being shipped through that port now comes from Saskatchewan, northern Saskatchewan and other provinces. Why can't we ship Manitoba grain through that port and get an extra 15 or 20 cents for the Manitoba farmer for his grain? This is something that can be done.

Why don't we do it ? And I am sure once you develop that port and provide more facilities so that you can ship products other than wheat, that it would be of great advantage to this province. Certainly this would also mean more employment to Manitoba and we would have a better picture and a bet ter report from labour in this province, because our unemployment is increasing rather than decreasing and I feel this is another way of providing employment.

One thing that really, because of the fast passing of the agricultural estimates, which certainly was not my doing -- that was not my doing, and I would have liked to have discussed the Agricultural Credit Corporation to a larger extent, where farmers are getting their loans. And what stopped me, the member from Morris says. I was only advised probably an hour before and then I had a meeting with the party that came in to see one of the Ministers and I was absent here for half an hour. When I came back the Minister's statement was just finished

May 14, 1971 925 (MR. FROESE cont'd) . . . . . and I wasn't prepared to go just momentarily, so that•s what stopped me. -- (Interjection) -- Well, I don't !mow why the Honourable Member for St. Boniface doesn't want to hear about agriculture. Is it no concern of his at all? Is that what they have?

A closed mind on agricul ture, coming from that side? -- (Interjection) -- No, but what I was coming to is on the Agricultural Credit Corporation, that there are loans in default and that I understand the cor poration is taking over farms at the present time and rehiring these farmers back as managers, and I certainly would like to !mow more about this, just what is taking place; how many of these farms have you like this, and in how many cases are we hiring farmers to run those same farms now, because they couldn't make a go of it now and if they are now hiring back those farmers at a good pay, I can't see where they can make money.

I think we will be underwriting shortages. I would think this matter should certainly be responded to when the Minister replies on the report, because it's a very important matter and I certainly don't blame these farmers for not being able to make a go, because if they made heavy loans and the high interest rates, and in many cases poor crops, actually crop failures, how can you pay your interest and on top of that the payments that are due? I cannot fault them in certain cases, with the economy as it is at the present time.

But I think it's worthy of mention here, this very fact, and to get inform ation from the government on this. I was also recently rather interested when we heard through the press about the Canada Grains Council having meetings here, and having closed meetings. Why were they closed? Are the farmers of this province not to !mow what goes on by the grain-handling people? They must have had some things on their mind as to certain actions that they contemplated taking which probably are not in the best interests or certainly which they diddt want to come out with into the open.

This is quite an accusation, I !mow, but certainly I think because the Canada Grains Council is supported by public funds, governments are contributing public funds to this council, and I feel then that there is a certain obligation on governments to tell us what is going on and what changes are being contemplated.

I have heard rumours about certain things and I certain ly don't want to come out with them here because they may not be fact at all, and therefore I don't want to come out, but I think if you are going to contribute money and if this government is contributing money to the council, that we should !mow what they have in mind, what changes they are contemplating and what programs they expect to come about and that they intend to develop.

Bill C-16 was discussed at these -- no, it's not Bill C-16, I'm sorry; it was the federal Task Force but Bill C-16 I think came in after, as a result of the federal Task Force Report and which provides for the setting up of marketing boards on a national basis. Mr. Speaker, I do not have confidence in boards of this type that they will do a proper job. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. I think I referred to this matter once before. Some honourable gentlemen are bringing in extraneous material into this Chamber. Would they kind ly cease and desist .

I don't want to bring it to the attention of the honourable members again. The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: Vlr. Speaker, I think the report itself mentions marketing boards and that the government supports the principle of marketing boards, and I for one take exception, be cause what we do by setting up marketing boards, we are channelling control into that board and if they don't do a proper job, then we just don't develop markets and then lose markets on top of that. I feel that we should have more agencies instead of less, and this is the very thing that we are going in for.

By accepting marketing boards we are approving the principle of less channels by way of which we can expand our marketing, and I feel that I don't have the confi dence in these marketing boards that they really go all out and develop markets, because we've seen an industry like we have in our area, the vegetable oils, if the local people hadn't had a chance to do it, certainly a provincial marketing board would never have done it. Never.

And yet, here we are going to give the marketing board complete control over all of this and I cer tainly don't subscribe to it; and if legislation does come forward at the provincial level, cer tainly I'll make my views !mown further on this. There were many other matters raised by the various submissions at the area meetings. For instance, there was a request to have storage and washing facilities for vegetables in rural areas. Why just have one facility here in Greater Winnipeg that all products have to be hauled in before they can be washed and so on.

I think we should have greater decentralization, and here again we are speaking of a marketing board; and they have complete control and therefore they have the power to centralize these facilities and there is nothing that the farmers can do.

926 May 14, 1971 (MR. FROESE cont'd) . . . . This principle is wrong, in my opinion, and I think we should accede to the request of the groups like the Plum Coulee group that I referred to before which would like to see these facilities decentralized, so that we would have a lot of economy taking place in not having to ship the raw product in and have it be washed here and a lot of it dis carded when it could be done locally. And it would provide employment at local levels as well.

I certainly have no objection to the report as far as the farm machinery and the plans that they have in that connection of having depots open for 24 hours a day during certain times of the year, and the government testing and evaluation of farm machinery is a recommendation by this particular group at Plum Coulee. I think this has been tried in Saskatchewan. I don't know; I'm not prepared to debate this matter fully at this point because it would take quite some time again. The lower interest rates to young farmers certainly was strongly endorsed by some of the farm groups.

The matter of the Hog Commission which is dealt with in the report, and the recommendation is that it be compulsory - here I take exception again. I don't feel that we should make these programs compulsory. They have been developed in a voluntary nature and I think we should leave them at that. Why shouldn't we have alternatives to these programs, and I think this is what the Hog Commission does and I think this is one reason why it has been so successful as it has, and when the time comes to debate that point I certainly intend to de bate it much more fully.

There are recommendations here that flax and rapeseed be left on the open market; certainly this is a matter that is not the prerogative of our Provincial Government at the pre sent time, although this could be done by them I imagine if they really wanted to. There's matters such as the Wheat Reserves Act which falls into the category of Bill C-176, and here again I certainly don't subscribe to what that piece of legislation contains for that matter. So, Mr.

Speaker, I for one, feel that the report is very deficient; that it should have commented on many more aspects pertaining to agriculture and dealt with more of the problems that are urgent and essential such as better prices and more margin for farmers so that the family farm can be maintained in the Province of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Member for· Sturgeon Creek. MR. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Yes, on agriculture! Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I intend to be fairly brief - probably rather surprising that a city member would get up and speak on the Agricultural Report but it kind of disappoints me that many of the city memb ers on the government side don't seem to be as interested in the rural area as they should - their interest is basically based on an agreement of supply-management as far as the farmers are concerned, and agreement of C-176 of the Liberal Federal Government in Ottawa, agreement of basically cutting down on farm lands that are cultivated in the province, which only when brought into effect is the ruination of the City of Winnipeg and less jobs in the City of Winnipeg.

It can only develop that way if you cut down the farming community in Manitoba which is what basically this Bill will accomplish as far as supply-management is concerned, cutting down acreage which only means that you'll be saying you can grow so much, you can sell so much, we'll sell it for you and the proof is in the pudding that governments do not suc cessfully sell products of any kind. I can assure you that you will be in a situation where they'll say, oh, we don't need that much, there's not that much market around so you can•t grow that any more or neither can you sell any more of your products.

This means that in Winnipeg you will have what is happening at the present time - country salesmen working for organizations who travel out through the country, coming back with empty order pads. I said this in 1969 and I say it now and I would invite any one of you here to make the calls I do around this city and I'll show you businesses that are at complete standstill because the rural econo my of Manitoba is in vezy bad shape and there is nothing being done about it.

The only way you're going to accomplish more economy as far as Winnipeg is concerned is to face the fact that the rural area of Winnipeg and rural Manitoba is as much a part of this part as the City of Winnipeg is because the rural area has a tremendous support to this city. You have to fact the fact that the agricultural industry has been our number one industry in this province and if you neglect it, what you're doing is neglecting your good customer while you're trying to find new ones and that is sheer suicide in any form of business.

The farm economy at the present time can only be stimulated by people going out and finding new markets and if we have to, that's what you have to do. I don't think there's a salesman in a carload of you over there. I'll guarantee you that if you give me the opportunity with about four guys

May 14, 1971 927 (MR. F. JOHNSTON cont'd) . . . . . around this province that I know as salesmen, I'll go out and sell your wheat. I may even cut a price to do it but I'll move your product for you. And that can be done, that can be done by working with the organization that we suggest in Man itoba, If somebody's not going to move it, to hide your head in the sand and say you can't do it yourself is ridiculous. There are starving people in this world today.

The neurologists tell us that the demand for food is absolutely more than we are presently supplying and all of a sudden we're turning around and we're cutting back. I would be very interested in what the Minister of Health and Social Welfare would say, and I would be interested to know what he does say about cutting back on farm produce, food, food, with the amount of people that are in dire straights in this province and in this country and all over the world. It's a standstill type of an attitude and it can only mean disaster.

You'll kill the country towns in this province, you'll kill the larger areas in this province and you will hurt the City of Winnipeg drastically. You know, it's very easy to say we can only end up with one farm machinery place, we can only end up with one of this or two of that or something like that, but you're only saying that you're doing away with jobs in this city, you know, and I just don't understand it. Mr.

Speaker, when I get up and say things like this, I get looked at by what I call the "alphabetical" back row over there - you know, when the Premier chose that back row, he went, Allard, Barrow, Boyce, Gonick, Gottfried, Jenkins, Johannson, you know. He messed it up when Adams came along. I thought Adams would head over the other side.

But the alphabetical back row is presently, you know, mucked up pretty badly, but when I stand up and I say some thing in a positive way of going out and selling something, doing it for yourself and disregard ing the fact that you can only hurt this province by supply-management policy, they're very surprised. So, Mr, Speaker, I said I'd be brief; I said I was speaking as a city member on agricul ture.

I can only say that the policies of the government for supply-management is drastic; and I would say the other part of the report that disappoints me very much is the amount of consideration being put into more irrigation, the Pembina Dam as the Member from Pembina has mentioned many times for more research and study as to products that can be made from our agricultural products in Manitoba that would create jobs, but there has really been none of that in the report of any consequence. So, Mr.

Speaker, I would say if they don't change their attitude, you'll not only harm the rural area of Manitoba, but you'll hurt the large urban areas as well. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Member for Souris Killarney, MR. EARL McKELLAR (Souris-Killarney): Mr.

Speaker, I was not of those members that was on the committee, I just had the privilege of attending one meeting in Brandon and was very interested in what had to be said at that day regarding farm machinery dealers and the farmers that were concerned about the problems attached to, and as one of those that had farmed all their lives and interested, third generation, I doubt very much if the future will be bright enough if it carries on this way for the young people of our province to start and take over from their pa;ents. This is one thing that concerns me. Who are the farmers of the future?

Who are the farmers of the future? The average age of farmers in Manitoba is around 55-56 years of age and each year it climbs by about one and there is very few farmers that can afford to start up farming, and if they did set up farming there's no future because the chances of success when they borrow money is practically nil at the present time. Many farmers in my area who started up farming in the late 50's, early 60's, are presently about 35 years of age, have between thirty to forty or fifty thousand dollars mortgage on their lands.

They bought this land when prices were good and now they are finding it so difficult, and it was related by the Minister of Agriculture, 30 percent of the people that have loans in the Province of Manitoba cannot meet their payments, can only meet their interest charges. I understand that 14 percent of the farmers in Manitoba that hold mortgages with the Federal Credit Corporation cannot meet their payments this year, too. Alberta is worse than that, they're 19 percent and I think Saskatchewan is in between.

So you can see the problem we are facing, In the last year, due to the suggestions by many of the farm experts, many farmers went into the hog enterprise and poultry enterprise thinking that the future was there and within only two years these farmers in my area are go ing into bankruptcy, losing everything that they had worked for all those years. Now where do we go from here? WhaUs the answer to the farm problem? Is more

928 May 14, 1971 (MR. McKELLAR cont'd) . . . . . credit the answer? I doubt it very much; I doubt it very much; because all you're doing is sending them that much closer to bankruptcy. To those people that I talked to that went into this hog enterprise and poultry enterprise last year, spend ing as much as 30 - 50 thousand dollars capital expenditures. At that time the grain prices were low and they could make a dollar, hog prices and poultry prices were good.

Now we're right back to actually about 1934 in poultry prices and abou.t 1959 in hog prices and it's im possible at the present grain prices for these people to carry on, and the only suggestion I say, there's no sense in them going into debt any further, they might as well face the facts right now and this is what many of them are doing. Now, much mention is made in the report about hogs. I was not a member of the commit tee but I am an interested person in agriculture and I was here when the Hog Commission was brought in.

The First Minister was a member of that committee and I think the Member for Arthur was a member for the .committee and I can•t just remember whether any members in the House at the present time, but a great study went into that report at that time; I think months of study, trips were made to the United States, Ontario, the western provinces. In turn they come up with the idea of a Hog Commission which is voluntary agents, you could sell to them or you could go through the packers direct and take the average price. I must say that over the years I've received very few complaints, very few complaints.

It's quite true there's always a few because some farmers some days all decide to take their hogs to market and some days they have to notify the farmers to hold them back; but this is nothing new, it happens in our ordinary markets. But I think the farmers as a whole like the privilege of the option where they could go through the commission or go through the packers direct taking an average daily price. Now in this report it mentions that the marketing of hogs produced in Manitoba through the Manitoba Hog Marketing Commission be made compulsory.

Now this takes the freedom of the individual producer, takes his freedom to sell his hogs in the manner in which he wants. Personally, I remember so well back in 137 and 138, 1937-38, we had that option whether we'd sell through the Grain Exchange or sell through the Canadian Wheat Board at that time our wheat, in those two particular years. The prices varied a lot at that time and for those of the people that could hold their grain it meant many more dollars through the Grain Exchange.

I'm not necessarily approving of that type of thing but I do think regarding hogs I think the man who goes to the trouble of producing his hogs, takes time out, he should have this privilege of sell ing his hogs in the manner which is presently being done right now, through the Commission or direct to the packers.

Now, as mentioned, I think, by the Member for Rhineland, there is a lot missing in this report, but I like the idea of the one thing he mentioned about Churchill because we all know what difference this makes to the average farmer in the Province of Manitoba if we could sell our grain through Churchill, I think it's anywhere from seven to 10 cents a bushel.

I was al ways wondering why more use couldn't be made out of this particular port especially with the tie-ups, the strikes we have at the Lakehead, the strikes we have at the west coast, which tend to disrupt our whole marketing plans, especially when they have so many millions of bushels they have for export planned ahead. We had a strike up at the west coast which tied up this year many millions of bushels and held up many boats there for a long period of time. Now, Mr. Speaker, we have, I think, in this report mentioned the Farm Implement Act and we all know as farmers what is happening in the farm machinery.

The men who are oper ating farm· implement agencies are in just as much trouble as the farmers and in fact more, I would say, at the present time, because the farm prices having dropped, very few farmers at $1. 25 wheat can go out and buy a $10, OOO tractor or a $15, OOO combine and the farm imple ment agencies in my area are loaded up, and I mean loaded up with new equipment.

I don't know what's going to happen because I realize, you know, they tell me that they have got so many months to pay for this equipment and I can realize it's about, I think October is the dead line; they're going to have to make the payment or raise the money somehow or they'll be in bankruptcy, too.

I talked to one person who is in this difficulty already in Southern Manitoba, a man who left his farm four years ago, went into the implement business, put everything he had and now, two weeks ago, he was at the Court House over here having to appear before all his creditors, and that's not a very good situation to have in our province. I can foresee there won't be any private implement agents in the Province of Manitoba. There'll be people employed as managers to operate an agency there on behalf of the manu facturer, and this is what's happening, and to those.of us farmers who think we're going to be

May 14, 1971 929 (MR. McKELLAR cont'd) . . . . . able to drive 20 miles or 10 miles to get the parts, we'll be looking at a hundred mile trip, at least a hundred mile trip within five years, or less than that. And this is going to raise the costs of the farmer. Now how can you legislate for that? What can you do? I doubt very much if you can do anything about it because the companies are going to have to look at it from a cost estimate point of view.

There's only so many dollars that they can spend and they've got to give the service at that particular cost, and in turn the farmers will have to pay more for their parts. Now, Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek brought out a very good point: the relationship between the farmers of Manitoba and the urban people of Manitoba, and more especially the cities of Brandon, Portage, Dauphin and Winnipeg. And what does this mean to the people of the urban area? What standard of living do they expect to have if the farmers' standard of living is reduced?

The standard of living will just be as good as the farmers' standard of living, because if the farmers haven't got a dollar the people of the City of Winnipeg aren't going to have any dollars either. And that's just a fact of life. It's always been that way. Agriculture is our number one economy no matter what the experts say, and as long as the farmers haven't got money in their pockets, the businessmen won't have money, the person employed by that businessman won't have any, and right down the line. And it's happening right in our very towns right now, the effect is being felt.

As mentioned by the Mem ber for Rhineland, the prices right now are lower -- well, back to 1939, around 1939 - 1940, and everything we purchased at that time was about a third of what it is now. So the farmers are faced with this very important problem along with low quotas, and I want to say or just tell the people here how much on my

section of land, what does this mean to me this year, the amount of wheat I can sell. The amount of wheat I can sell is less than 2, 400 bushels at $1. 30 a bushel, makes a total of about $2, 800. 00. I pay my hired man in the summer $2, 200, then what's there left for me? Not enough to even pay the property taxes on the farm. And this is the problem the farmers are faced with. Where are they going? How are they going to face these problems? The only man that might be dragged along a little long er is the man that's got no debts, and how many are there of those? Very few. Very few.

The member here behind me mentions McKellar. Well, I guess I am maybe one of those. But I'm a third generation and this is only natural when you hand down from one generation to the other. But that isn't going to last very long in the next generation. My boys are going to have to face the problems just as the boys who are facing them right now out in the country. So where do they go? Is the agricultural economy in our country not worth saving? This is what I ask all the people of Manitoba and all the people of Canada right now. Is it not worth saving? Is the only answer to reduce the number of farmers?

And I attended a meeting in Killarney where one of the top men in the Department of Agriculture came out there and told us at the Chamber of Commerce the only way to solve the problems of Manitoba is to cut down the number of farmers. Well I tell you, I wish I'd had a chance to reply but there was no op portunity. So I'm going to reply right now. I've got a platform here. I don't know whether anybody will listen but I have a platform.

And I want to say to the people of the Province of Manitoba right now that if you reduce the number of farmers you•ve got, you•ve created a problem ten times worse because these people will have to go to the city, and if you think there's ,problems in the city right now you'll really never have seen anything because there's no way these farmers can dispose of their property right now and realize any amount of money. Five years ago, yes, but not today. Land that was selling $150, 00 an acre in my area is sell ing for $50. 00 today, $50. 00 an acre. So this is the amount of money yoLi•re talking about.

This is the problem that the Member for Sturgeon Creek mentioned, the relationship between the rural and the urban areas, and I hope and pray that things don•t get that bad when every one suffers, everyone suffers, because the farmers have been used to adjusting. They can cut back in their expenditure s, but the city people are used to a standard of living which is very difficult to cut back. They're living from day to day.

I can see right now that if we think we've got problems in welfare right today - the Mini ster was mentioning the number of dollars that was over-expended this past year - I can see right now, if the bankruptcies on the farms continue , if the Federal Government bring out in this program to reduce the number of farmers , encourage the people to reduce the number of farmers and shove them into the city to increase the labour market, the number of people in the labour market, not only will the Minis ter of Health have troubles, but every department in government will have troubles trying to finance, and so this is one of the things that I am really concerned about.

I imagine that I will survive till I'm ready to reti re . I imagine that, with, a little bit of good management, providing the government don't take any more bus iness away from me - they took my insurance business away

930 May 14, 1971 (MR. McKELLAR cont'd) . . . . . last year. I can survive even at that bit I'll tell you, a lot more of them won•t survive. -- (Interjection) -- All you've got to do is ruin me in my farming and defeat me in an election and you've finished me and I'll be on welfare over there. Yeah. But I'm not going to get defeated in an election, and I'm going to try to run my farm, and I hope that many other farmers will be able to do likewise.

But they won't be able to do it if they're loaded in debt; they won't be able to do it because they can't meet the interest pay ments, seven or eight percent, even five percent. Did you ever figure up the amount of inter est they have to pay on $1. 25 wheat, 50 cent oats and 75 cent barley? It's just impossible at low quotas to do this.

Now, I don't know what the government's position is and this is one of the things that I - it's not in the report because it's not a government report - and I'm sorry and I want to ex press my sympathy to the Minister of Agriculture in the loss of his mother who was buried this morning - b u t I would hope that some time during this session I would like to hear the position of the government in regards to the policy of the Federal Government as to the reduc tion in the number of farmers in the Province of Manitoba. Are they in favour of this policy? Are they going along with it?

Are they studying it, or what approach are they taking in this policy? And this is one of the serious things I have at this time, in the farming economy right at this time. How do we deal with these farmers? Are we going to turn them loose in the labour market, going to turn them loose in the welfare? Where do they go? They can't all work for the Highways Minister. One fellow in my area quit this year, he did get a job; but that's only one man.

So here are the problems as I see them, and I would hope that each member in the House, whether they be a farmer or not, whether they be a farmer or not -- farmers haven't got any money, you haven't got any money, the government hasn't got any money, and right down the line. And it affects the Minister of Finance too. He's going to get hurt. So, Mr. Speaker, with those few words, thank you very much. MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR, SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for The Pas. The Honourable the Attor ney-General. HON, A, H.

MAC KLING, Q. C, (Attorney-General)( St. James) : Mr. Speaker, I had askai to have this matter stand in my name because I considered the opportunity to be one in which I might address some remarks in respect to certain aspects of assessment. I have reconsidered, however, and I think an opportunity will be provided under one of the resolutions which may be debated, and therefore I am prepared to concede my talking time at this time and allow it to go to a vote, land. Mr. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Member for Rhine- MR. FROESE: Mr.

Chairman, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Portage, that debate be adjourned. MR, SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR, SPEAKER: Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills; Orders of the Day. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. HON. RENE E, TOUPIN (Minister of Health and Social Development)(Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table an Order for Return No, 1, dated Monday, April 12th, 1971, on the motion of the Honourable Member for Rock Lake. And I would equally like, Mr.

Speaker, to table the report of the Department of Health and Social Development for the year 1970. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. HARRY J, ENNS (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Honourable the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. Some time ago he indicated to the House that he had a proposal to offer to the federal authorities with respect to compensation payments for fishermen in this province, Can he indicate to the House at this time whether or not he has received any response from the Federal Government? HON, SIDNEY GREEN, Q.

C, (Minister of Mines, Resources and Environmental Manage ment)(Inkster) : Mr. Speaker, the proposal was offered, I believe, on April 22nd or there abouts, I have received ongoing communications from the Federal Government but I don't

May 14, 1971 931 (MR, GREEN cont'd) . . • . . think that I will be able to give their total reply until, let us say, Wednesday of next week. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. GORDON E, JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie) : Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Labour. Is it true that the lay-offs at the CAE Plant are now approaching the 300 figure? HON, RUSSELL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour)(Tr anscona): I have no precise inform ation, Mr. Speaker, as to the numbers involved, I'll try and obtain that information for my honourable friend. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake, MR, HENRY J. EINARSON (Rock Lake): Mr. Speaker, I direct this question to the Minister of Education. It relates to an

article in the paper where a request for a free school was made. The question I would like to ask the Minister of Education: Did he make a verbal commitment to the undefined group who met with the Division Board, that he would agree to grant in the way of capital grants for a free school in the Division 1 of Winnipeg? HON, SAUL A, MILLER (Minister of Youth and Education)(Seven Oaks) : Mr. Speaker, I replied to that question a few days ago; I •m trying to recollect the date. No commitment was made.

I said at that time in answer to the question in the House that any application or any school would have to be under aegis of the school division. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR, DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Youth and Education. Can he indicate whether all capital in the university budget has been transferred over to borrowing out of current? MR. MILLER: No, Mr. Speaker, not all. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, can the Minister indicate how much capital is included in current in the university budget? MR, MILLER: Mr.

Speaker, I don't have my estimates with me. When we get to the estimates I'll give the information. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. STEVE PATRICK (Assin iboia): Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct my question to the Minister of Health and Social Services. Can the Minister tell us whe ther his Department has been approached by an organization called "Switchboard" for financial aid? MR. TOUPIN: Yes, we have, Mr. Speaker. MR. PATRICK: Does the Minister anticipate that some aid will be given, or can he tell the House if any aid will be given to this organization? MR, TOUPIN: Mr.

Speaker, the Department of Health and Social Development is con sidering the request by the organization. If funds will be made available is a matter of policy. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR, J, WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin): Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. The gates of the Shellmouth Dam have been opened and there's excessive flooding in the area. Whose responsibility is that, Manitoba or Canada? MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I'll take the question as notice and I don't accept the assumption of the question, MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Honourable the Minister of Trans portation which he may want to take under notice. Can he indicate to us, prior to his estimates coming up, what portions in his department were taken into capital from current? I believe some mention of that was made by the Budget Speech last night. HON, JOSEPH P. BOROWSKI (Minister of Public Works and Highways)(Thompson) : Mr. Speaker, the answer is I can but I won' t. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia, MR. PATRICK: Mr.

Speaker, I wish to direct my question to the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. Can the Minister advise whether the Autopac has already signed a lease with the Bank of Montreal, and whether the execu tive of the Autopac will also have their of fices in the same place? HON, HOWARD R. PAWLEY (Minister of Municipal Affairs)( Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, in answer to the first part of the question, as of two or three days ago the lease had not yet been signed. Negotiations were still under way. Too, insofar as the executive or the management of Autopac, their offices there will be on a temporary basis.

They will eventually be located

932 May 14, 1971 (MR, PAWLEY cont'd) • • • . • in whatever building is built or obtained in Brandon. MR. PATRICK; One supplementary, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister can advise the House if it's true that he has already seen the list of agents that will be writing for the Auto pac? MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, the suggestion is absolutely false and I would hopefully request that the honourable member would check with the source of his information. I would be curious to know just on what basis the suggestion was made to him because I've never heard such a false suggestion in a long time.

I only wish I had already the list before me. MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: I direct a question to the Honourable the Minister of Finance. I wonder if he would consider, as an aid to cutting off useless debate on the Budget Speech, providing us with some . •• MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. I think the remark is a reflection on the Chair. I would ask the gentleman to withdraw it. I think I am trying to chair these proceedings without having useless repetition, and if members cooperate then it doesn't occur. So I really would ask the gentleman to withdraw that remark. MR. ENNS: Well, Mr.

Speaker, it appears that we are in a sensitive mood this morn ing. You threw me out of the House for bringing a cup of coffee in and I'm just a bad boy today. I wasn't casting any reflection on you, Sir. I think if you would just allow the gist of the question, you would know it was no reflection on you. MR, SPEAKER: Would the honourable member make his question? We're not in a de bating mood this morning with the Chair. MR, ENNS: O. K. The Honourable Minister of Finance.

Would he consider supply- ing the members of the Opposition with some additional details with respect to those portions of funds normally in our current estimates that he indicated were being transferred to Capital Supply both in Education or in Highways, or in any other field that would be of an aid to us in ter ms of debating the budget later on this week or next week. HON, SAUL CHERNIACK, Q. C. (Minister of Finance)(St. Johns) : Mr. Speaker, last night I brought in a message from His Honour giving information regarding the Capital Supply Bill No. 2.

I propose that we will be bringing it up -- I was ready to do it today. The leader of the Opposition asked that I stand it till Monday, so probably on Monday or Tuesday, what ever is convenient, we can bring in Capital Supply and at that stage we can discuss the Capital Supply Bill. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Municipal Affairs.

In view of the number of the insurance companies folding up their local office and employees being left stranded, will people who were employees, not agents but employees, have any special consideration given to them by way, first of all, of direct job opportunity or secondly, qualifying for a licence to sell insurance even though they have not been an agent before. Mr. Speaker, the Minister hasn't grasped the full intent of the question, so I'll read it directly. This is from a person unemployed as a result of his local office ... MR. SPEAKER: Order, please.

I do believe the honourable gentleman could place his order as a return or a request for information. The question period is designed to elicit short answers to short questions. We are not in a debating mood this morning, I'm sorry. Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address a question to the Minister of Municipal Affairs. Is the government considering or will the government set up an office on the Insurance Corporation in my riding? MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I don't know whether it's safe, because I know the Honour able Member's hostile feelings towards public automobile insurance and I would be very, very uneasy about establishing any regional office in his riding. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR, ENNS: I direct a question to the Honourable the Minister of Transportation. Can he indicate to the House whether or not he has hired a new technical and special advisor, namely Lawrence Welk. ORDERS 0 F THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader.

May 14, 1971 933 MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I presume that it's the priority to call the motion of the Hon ourable Minister of Finance. MR. SPEAKER: Adjourned Debate. The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr, Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable the Attorney General, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole -- Oh, I'm sorry, Mr. Speaker, it's on the Throne Speech; it wasn't for me to move at this stage. MR. GREEN: ... Leader of the (Opposition and I presume that his wish is to be stood but I think it has to be called. MR.

SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Finance. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition, (Stands) The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CHERNIACK: I move, seconded by the Honourable the Attorney-General that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider the following Bills: No. 2,

an Act to repeal The Succession Duty Act; No. 4, a.n Act to amend The County Courts Act (1); No. 5,

An Act to amend The Court of Appeal Act; No. 6

an Act to amend The Department of Tourism and Recreation Act, No. 7,

an Act to amend The Public Schools Finance Board Act; No. 16,

an Act to amend The Government Purchases Act; No. 22,

an Act to amend The Housing and Renewal Corporation Act. ' MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of The Whole with the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE MR. CHAIRMAN: (Bills Nos. 2, 4 and 5 were each read

section by

section and passed) Bill No. 6,

an Act to amend the Department of Tourism and Recreation Act. 1 -- passed; 2 - passed; 3 (a) -- passed; (b) -- The Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. HARRY E. GRAHAM (Birtle-Russe ll): On second 3 (b), this matter was raised in the committee and at that time there was some discussion about whether to allow this at the time. The Minister was not present so at this time I would like to move, seconded by the Member for Roblin, that Bill 6 be further amended under

section 2 - 3 (

b) by adding thereto after the word "engaged" in the first line thereof ''as his prime means of livelihood. " MR. CHAIRMAN presented the motion. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Tourism and Recreation. MR, BURTNIAK: Mr. Chairman, I must apologize that I wasn't here yesterday. I was away out of town. However, I cannot accept the amendment as such for the simple reason that if the amendment is put in, it will actually defeat the purpose of the whole bill. I would just like to reiterat e, Mr.

Chairman, the purposes of the Outfitters Act is to per mit and develop outfitters services on a controlled plan basis, in prime business areas where this type of service is needed, to insure the equipment provi ded by the outfitters is safe, legal and reliable, such as boats, motors and the likes of that and to prescribe and control building standards for the outfitters buildings to insure orde rly development. Now we can also go a little further and say that at present, for example, the chartered airlines would like to get into the outfitting business.

The proposed amendment would enable them to get into this business without benefit of a licence and I don't think we want to do that. If the bill is amended as I said or approved, it will virtually wipe out the possibility of establishing suitable controls on equipment and therefore I cannot accept the amendment as such. MR. CHAIRMAN presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion lost. MR. GRAHAM: Ayes and Nays please, Mr. Chairman. MR, CHAIRMAN: Call in the Members. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The matter before the committee: Moved by the member for Birtle Russell, seconded by the Member for Roblin, that Bill No. 6 be further amended under

section 2-3 (

b) by adding thereto after the word "engaged" in the first line thereof 11as his prime means of livelihood . " A COUNTED VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: Yeas 16; Nays 26. MR. CHAIRMAN: The amendment is lost. (The remainder of the bill was read

section by

section and passed. Bills Nos. 7, 16, 22 each were read

section by

section and passed. ) Committee rise. Call in the Speaker.

934 May 14, 1971 IN SESSION MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre. MR, J, R. (BUD) BOYCE (Winnipeg Centre): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Member for The Pas that the report of the committee be received. MR, SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. GOVERNMENT BILLS BILLS Nos. 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 16 and 22 were each read a third time and passed. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, would you call Bill No. 31. MR. SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Transportation.

The Honourable Member for Souri s-Kil larney. MR. McKELLAR: Mr. Speaker, could I have the indulgence of the House to let this mat ter stand. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR, GREEN: Mr. Speaker, the fact is that this bill has been stood three times, I believe. -- (Interjection) -- Twice. Well, it was adjourned once, stood the next time and stood the third time. I think the honourable member should be aware that it is desired to pass this legis lation as soon as we can so he better take that into consideration. Bill No. 19, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR, PAWLEY presented Bill No. 19,

An Act to Amend the Winter Employment Act for second reading. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, over the last several months we have been familiar with the efforts undertaken by the government in order to alleviate unemployment in the urban and rural parts of the province.

This work has been done. through the auspices of the various municipal ities in the province and I don•t think at this point I need to deal with the extent of the success of the efforts, except to suggest that much of the report that the Honourable Minister of Labour was able to make yesterday about the very fact that unemployment had declined inuhe Pr ovince of Manitoba in contrast to the increase in unemployment throughout the rest of the country prob ably can be brought home to the doorstep of the efforts that were made in order to initiate work projects of one type or another on the local level under the auspice s of the provincial employment program.

I think most honourable members are familiar with many of the projects that local people have initiated from brush clearing to various projects to improve tourist facilities, to the im provement or the construction of community centres, the renovation of community centres.

Only last month, in speaking to, for instance, the convention of the Urban Association in Beause jo ur, other honourable members were there too, we could not but have been impressed by the work that had been undertaken by the Town of Beausejour under the auspices of this program in having a new community hall and municipal council chambers, work which had earlier been con templated, in many cases later in this particular year, being moved up in order to remove people from either the welfare rolls or to remove them from the unemployment insurance rolls.

Now, the amendment that is before us deals basically with certain legal changes that were required in order to provide authority for the type of spending program which the province entered into with the various municipalities. One change that's outlined is, of course, the change insofar as the scope of the present existing Act. is concerned.

The scope of the Act was extended so that local authorities could be broadened to include hospital boards and I have been informed that a large sum of money, I believe it's in the neighbourhood of approximately 600,000 has been made available to the hospital boards in order that those boards in various parts of Manitoba might be able to undertake needed programs of improvement in respect to Manitoba hospitals.

There had to be some alterations from the old Act as well insofar as to include the fact that a person that was registered with Manpower would be one of the classes of people that would be acceptable for projects on the municipal works and this was not available or not allowed un der the old provisions of the Act. The Act has therefore provided that a municipality has been empowered to create debt for purposes of projects coming within the meaning of the Act without reference to the Municipal L

May 14, 1971 935 (MR. PAWLEY, cont'd. ) ..... Board or to the ratepayers. It is not now necessary for a municipality to submit money by-laws to the ratepayers and this amendment before us will pro vide that the Municipal Board may be by-passed only in the event that the Lieutenant-Governor in-Council has exempted the municipality from that requirement and this of course again is to assist in the rushing up of important projects on the local level in order to create employment.

The Act has also been altered in order to permit the province to pay up to 100 percent of the labour involved rather than 50 percent of the labour involved that was the case under the provi sions of the old Act. So in

summary, Mr. Speaker, the amendments facilitate the program that was initiated by the province in order to reduce the number of unemployed, to take people off our welfare rolls, to remove people from the unemployment insurance rolls, to extend it to those that have been unemployed for at least a one-month period, to include as many as possible that were in need of employment in Manitoba in order that they might initiate projects at the local level, long needed and long required.

I think this is done to the extent that the program has successf ully brought into employment somewhere in the neighborhood of 5, OOO people that would otherwise be unemployed in Manitoba. I think much of the success, though not as great as we all would like, but at least success in holding the line and reducing the number of unemployed in Manitoba has been due to the provi sions of this Act and the amendments are required in order to broaden its scope in line with the various actions that the government has undertaken under the provin cial employment program, commonly known as the PEP program.

MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle- Russell. MR, GRAHA M: Will the Minister permit a question? He stated that one of the purposes was to take people off the welfare rolls. Can he tell me how many people that were receiving welfare took advantage of this program and are actually working now?

MR, PAWLEY: Well, I'm not sure whether I can ascertain the exact number for the hon ourable member because, of course, this was done through the municipalities, the money was provided to the municipalities and as a result of the request from the municipality for a partic ular project and the terms or the criteria for employment outlined to the municipality.

I sus pect that we will be able to obtain a full report, whether we have it at this point or not I'm not certain, as to the number of welfare recipients that the municipalities, where through the ad ministration of this bill at their level, were able to remove from welfare rolls, but certainly that was the obj ect. .,. MR, SPEAKER: Tbe Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, in making a few comments with respect to the bill, let me say at the outset that we will of course support this particular bill.

It's a bill, I think, that involves a program that has been carried out from time to time in this. province and it's always nice to note that although we think the world changes a great deal, only faces and events are somewhat different. It also affords me an opportunity to remind honourable members that this kind of legislation was brought into being in Canada by a person that I certainly have a lot of respect for, namely, the Right Honourable John George Diefenbaker.

It's nice to see that the Minister and the government opposite recognizes progressive reform legislation of this kind, necessary labour legislation, I might even say, in terms of the particular efforts or direction that this bill is directed to. We concur that unfortunately with the passing of a government of conscience with respect to employment from the federal scene to that of a Liberal government that it now may be neces sary for the province to have the powers to do it alone if need be.

I think this is one of the changes that are included in this bill and I say that's unfortunate in the sense that the Federal Government would allow itself to be put in that kind of position and not to co-operate with the provincial eff orts with respect to reducing what always is a problem here in Canada, particular ly in the prairies, seasonal unemployment, particularly winter unemployment. So, Mr. Speaker, with a few comments, I beli eve there may be other members that have a few specif ic things that they want to raise.

I only congratulate the government in the program that they have carried out this past winter in accepting the wisdom of the continuance of this kind of program.

We certainly can understand the necessity for modifications, review, bring ing up-to-date to meet the more current needs and requirements that legislation, good old John Diefenbaker legislation, good old Conservative legislation, even requires from time to time as it's been around since the early 60's, and with that gentle jab at honourable members opposite, I remind them that it isn't new initiative on the part of this government; it' s merely following in the well-trodden paths of that great reformBr, the Honourable John George Diefenbaker.

936 May 14, 1971 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Swan River, the debate be adjourned. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Attorney General, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MR.

SPEAKER pres ented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Winni peg Centre in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR. CHAIRMAN: The matter under consideration is Resolution 25 (a) -- The Member for Brandon West. MR. EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West) : Mr.

Chairman, yesterday we were discussi ng a problem under The Highway Traffic Act which was essentially a rural one and I would like in a very brief way to bring this problem into clearer focus by relating just two Brandon samples of a situation that has developed under the present arrangements. The case of the man who had been a truck driver and is a truck driver of some 20 years standing who while he was driving his private vehicle was apprehended for impaired driving and who lost his driv er's licence. It was suspended for six months under the regulations by the magistrate.

This happened on the Sthof February and he was given a temporary restricted licence because of his occupation by the magistrate and he was enabled in that way to continue with his job as a truck driver for 30 days. But on the Sth of March his licence expired. Now the Appeal Board apparently had met the day following his conviction in Brandon but he was unaware of this at the time and with the assistance of his counsel he immediately obtained the proper forms and filed them with the necessary fee.

It was not until towards the end of April that the Appeal Board again met in Brandon and from the Sth of March when his licence expired he was unable to continue with his work. He had no licence. He eventually after being off work for about three weeks obtained a restricted licence from the Appeal Board and was able to continue; but had this man been living in Winnipeg he would· have been able to appear before the Appeal Board and have avoided the necessity to be off work for this period of time. The second case was that of a young farmer who carried on the farming operations - on his fat her's farm..

He was the only driver in the family since his father was blind and his mother was not able to drive. He was apprehended and convicted for imparied driving in Febru ary; he did obtain a 30-day temporary licence from the magistrate but this ran out in March. He completed and filed the necessary forms but after the temporary licence had expired he was unable to do anything except work in the fields on his farm and he was not even legally able to go from one field to another where it involved taking his tractor out on the highway or the road.

He was able to continue by relying on his neig hbours to go to town for him to pick up repairs and so forth but this became a very difficult thing for him to do during the busy seeding and cultivating season which he finds himself in at the moment. Up until last week this man had not been able to get a temporary licence although he had filed his appeal and sent the necessary fee. Mr.

Chairman, I think perhaps the way this could be avoided -- there is not criticism here of the law as it now stand, the judgments were quite correct and the law was administered in the proper way, however it would appear that in rural Manitoba an additional hardship is being experienced because of the, inability of people to appear before the Appeal Board within the 30-days which they are permitted to obtain f rom the magistrate. So it might be a solution to this problem, Mr.

Chairman, if the magistrates were enabled to give an additional tempor ary licence of an additional 30 days on application from the person involved provided he could produce a receipt from the Licence Appeal Board which would indicate that he had filed his notice of appeal and submitted the necessary fee.

I'm suggesting that the problem is a rural one, the solution is not too difficult a one and we would recommend that the Minister consider granting to the magistrate the authority to give an extension of an additional 30 days provided the applicant has made the necessary appeal to the Appeal Board and submitted his fee. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Attorney-General. MR. MAC KLING: Mr. Chairman, I thought that I had adequately indicated a response to the concern manifest by the honourable member the other day pointing out -- but I will point

May 14, 1971 937 (MR.

MACKLING, cont'd. ) ..... out again that previously there was no provision for tempo rary licensing at all and people who lost their licence as a result of an automatic conviction under the Criminal Code went without their driving privileges unless or until they were restored in part or under restricted basis by the Licence Suspension Appeal Board and this government through the Minister of Transport moved last year to provide a much more equitable system as a result of which now it is possible for a person to have a restricted licence because of his oc cupational requirement, and in the interval of the 30 days which is considered a reasonable time to make application and obtain, if he can satisfy the Licence Suspension Appeal Board, a return of his driving privileges.

There may be instances as I've indicated where through some lack of knowledge about the availability of the Licence Suspe nsion Appeal Board or the technicality of its requirements that someone or some few people may not file in time or there may be some hardship, But the fact of the matter is that people can appear before the Licence Suspension Appeal Board in Winnipeg if they are from an area where the Board has met but recently and they missed the hearing, because I'm advised that people now pome from various parts of Mani toba to Winnipeg for hearing of their case if something like that should happen.

So maybe it's just a lack of publicity about how this system works and how it's available that results in the odd case, and I think it is an exception, where some people ha ven't been able to avail them,,. selves of the new system that this government has adopted. But compared to what existed in the past this is a wonderful thing. There may be I say the odd case of hardship but it's a lack of knowledge about how the system works that probably results in this. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina. MR. GEORGE HENDE RSON (Pembina): Mr. Chairman, my question is along the same lines.

I know that these hearings when they apply for them though it takes a long time for them to have them. But there's another trouble that we have after that, is if they do get a restricted licence they have to go through this testing and rewrite this examination. Now in the country in different points these people that conduct these driver testing and examinations only appear about every three weeks, and it's three weeks in my town. This means that a fellow's licence is delayed even further so it ends up that -- I'm not quarreling about the way the law is admini stered.

There is times though - the p1rticular person I'm thinking of he drives a school bus and then when he comes in he had a job driving an oil truck for a man in town that had an oil business during those hours between 9: 00 and 4: 00, so to be restricted again it was really quite a loss to him and I think that in the country points we should have some other consideration so as we can get their licence back quicker. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Attorney-General. MR. MACKLING: . . . answer the Honourable Member for Pembina.

There may be as I indicate again some instances where improvements in administration of program can be made but I want to underline our concern and the concern of this government that people whose driv ing privileges have been suspended must satisfy society that their driving privileges ought tube restored and that they are safe drivers and can be entrusted with the responsibility of a vehicle on the highway. Becaus e in the hands of irresponsible people it's a dangerous and lethal weap on. The honourable member suggests something in connection with a driver of a school bus .

Well of all people we want to make doubly sure the drivers of school buses are safe drivers and if there is some delay in satisfying the adequate testing then I think any delay that is neces sary to satisfy society that someone assumes that kind of responsibility is a safe driver is a necessary delay and I would accept full responsibility for anything like that. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina. MR. HENDERSON: In this regard I believe that you should be sure that he is a safe driver but I'd like to see him given the opportunity to prove it to your satisfaction sooner. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Roblin. MR.

McKENZIE: Mr. Chairman, I have a couple of problems that I'd like to draw to the attention of the Attorney-General. He's likely aware -- I think I've discussed the one of the vanilla being sold by vendors, storekeepers in certain areas of the provinc e and they can - (Interjection) -- No, not me. And they'll also provide the mix to go with it. Well it's a matter of grave concern to many people in my constituency. It•s going on and on. There doesn't seem to be any way to retard it or stop it. -- (Interjection) -- Well it is quite a concern.

I understand the jurisdiction possibly is out of the hands of Manitoba and it comes under the Food and Drug Act but I'd just like to know how we can arrive at some solution to that prroblem which at the moment doesn't seem tobe able to be. correcteda ndit 's causing a lot of social concern in

938 May 14, 1971 (MR, McKENZIE, cont'd. ) ..... the area and whether in fact that we can bring it to the at tention of the Federal Government or try and get it enforced some way. It seems that the pres ent laws you can't do a thing about it and it just goes on and on and no brakes on the problem at all. The other one I have is a matter of policing - and I'm not quarreling with the RCMP in the way they're administering the law - but I have several occasions of farmers driving old trucks.

I have one here, a 1948 and 1952 truck, I think he got four or five tickets in a month, and the problem is with these older vehicles and the charge on them in every case is operating a motor vehicle upon a highway with faulty equipment. Rural country roads are not that good. You could take a 1948 truck today and take it to the garage and have it in what•s reasonably good working order, in a matter of two days something else has broke down on that vehicle.

So the farmer appears out on the highway thinking his truck is in reasonably good condition, maybe taking some goods to market and he's picked up again for faulty equipment. Now we've either got to let him drive it during the working hours of the day, the man has never had any problems of this nature before, it's the only transportation he's got and either tell him you can't drive a '48 truck because it's impossible to keep them in working order.

I don't know how to arrive at it, it's a continuing problem and, you know, do we tell foem to go back to the old horse and buggy days or go back with the oxen or walk or just keep those old farm trucks off the road. It seems that we've got to make a stand one way or the other because I can see the farmer's prob lem, you know he's taken it to the garage after he was summonsed and asked the garage man to fix it up the best way that he could, at least he takes it out and maybe the next trip to town he's back and he gets another ticket.

So those two problems, I wouldn't mind if the Attorney-General would give me some answers if he could. MR. CHAIRMAN� The Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARS ON: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to make a few comments in regards to this

section of the administration of justice. I would like to make comment on one particular instance that I'm aware of, not in my constituency but in southern Manitoba late this winter when there was a skidoo parade that was conducted from Emerson I believe, came north for about 40 miles, went west to Somerset and back into LaRiviere. Now the situation that I want to bring to the attention of the Minister, Mr.

Chairman, is this, that there was one particular citizen who was involved in the safari that was going on and it so happened the weather was real bad, they had a real bad snowstorm blowing, wind from the south, and one skidoo was in some difficu lty and the assistnat that was along the highway had stopped and he put his flashing lights on while he was stopped to give this skidoo operator some assistance. Af ter having done that he got back into his truck and he proceeded to commence down the highway but forgot to take off his blinkers.

The storm was blowing very badly and of course a patrol officer happen ed to stop them and said that he was travelling to the common danger. Now the gentleman who was driving the truck said he was so sorry he didn't realize it because of the storm, and he got a ticket for this . Now the thing that concerns me, Mr. Chairman, is I am wondering - and I don't want to be critical of the people who are enforcing the law - what concerns me and I'm wondering if the instructions are coming from the Attorney-General in a manner that is somewhat different now with what we have had over the years . I don' t know.

That•s why I pose this question. I be come concerned because I think that generally speaking our police that are administering the law are fairminded people and this partic ular case was brought to my attention and I felt, Mr. Chairman, that there was some unreasonable aspects insofar as the decision that was made by giving this gentleman a ticket for such an occasion. There is another area, Mr. Chairman, that I would like to comment on and that is those people who are asked to become members of a jury when a court is being held. The area in which I am concerned here, Mr.

Chairman, is the ex penses that are involved or the costs rather that are involved. A number of people have brought it to my attention that they feel that when they have been selected it's a compulsory thing that they must do, it's a service they must perform on behalf of society, they feel that they are not being properly remunerated for their services.

This can apply to a farmer say who is called away from his own particular business, he may be away for a week, he may be away for two weeks depending how long the trial goes, but he feels that the remuneration that he was receiv ing doesn't begin to take care of what it really costs him when he's away from his business. This could also apply to anyone who was in business in the cities or the towns. This is another area, Mr. Chairman, that I am concerned about; I am wondering if we can make some improve ment in this area.

May 14, 1971 939 (MR. EINARSON, cont'd. ) ..... The other thing that I am wondering about, Mr. Chairman, I have heard where we have not just the RCMP patrolling highways but just road patrol. In this one area here we have special constables. I am wondering if the Minister could .tell us how many special constables were employed say in 1969 and how many have been employed in 19 70; if there has been an in crease or are they roughly the same. There seems to be some notable difference in the atti tude towards some of the police patrol as opposed to the RCMP in the performance of their duties.

I'm not criticising either one but there just seems to be some difference in the way each operates. I don't know whether t)le instructions or the training that a road patrol receives is somewhat similar to that of an RCMP but I'm just wondering in this area whether there has been an increase in the number of special constables as you refer to in the Item (2) under Ad ministration of Justice.

INTRODUC TION OF GUESTS MR, CHAIRMAN : Before I re cognize the member I would like to direct the attention of all Members to the galleries on my right where we have 50 senior students from Red Lake Falls, Minnesota who are under the direction of Mr. Czech. On behalf of all honourable members I wish to welcome you to our Legislative Asse mbly. MR, CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE : If I may, I would like to bring one matter to the attention of the Minister. Actually it came up earlier in the session on one occasion but to me it seemed that we did not get a clear-cut reply to the matter concerned.

What I'm referring to is the matter of some of our senior citiz ens who have been driving cars, have had a licence for years but now they come into the category where they are of senior age, they are still in good health, they have not caused any infractions whatever yet they are now required to write an exam. MR, CHAIRMAN : May I suggest to the honourable member that his question would be bet ter directed to the Estimates of the Minister of Transportation under whom licensing falls. MR. FRO ESE: Mr.

Chairman, we are dealing with the administration of justice and I think we are not dealing out proper justice. . . MR, CHAIRMAN: And the honourable member's questions pertain to the licensing of drivers who are under the purview of the Minister of Transportation. I would ask the honour able member to direct his remarks to the Attorney-General's estimates. MR, FROESE : Yes, but I'm discussing the matter of dealing out justice in a proper way. I feel that we are not doing it.

I feel that the people of English and French ancestry they're privileged, we are giving them a preferred position, because they have no difficulty in doing this. We have some of our senior citizens who have not acquired knowledge of the English language and as a result, they are not able to meet the requirements laid down by the law. MR, CHAIRMAN: Order, please.

I don't intend to debate it with the honourable member but if under regulations of the Highway Traffic Act, certain regulations are impinging upon some citizens in the member's view I would suggest that he still must direct his remarks to the Minister of Transportation, and any further remarks in this regard I'll have to rule out of order. The Member for Rhineland.

MR, FROESE : Well I'll refrain from speaking of the licence department then, but as I mentioned, I feel that certain groups in this province are in a preferred position because of legislation on our statutes and I feel that we need changes because of this .

We hear from time to time the government's support of the various cultures in this pro vince and I'm wondering whether we are not just giving lip service when on the other hand, we are penalizing a certain number of our senior citizens because they have not acquired the know ledge of the English language as such and because they are now to meet the statutory require ments. I feel that the Attorney-General's Department should look into this because people have approached me on this.

They have had no infractions whatever and yet all of a sudden they are faced with the situation where they will no longer be able to do what they have been doing here tofore through their normal daily living. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Attorney-General. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I'll refrain from dealing with the questions raised from the Member for Rhineland, because I think as you indicated I think his questions can be more properly put to my colleague the Minister of Transportation.

He implies a general problem with which I suppose I could deal lightly but I think that our laws are general application and it's true that some people have difficulty in understanding our laws, because of either a

940 May 14, 1971 (MR. MACKLING, cont'd. ) ..... diffic ulty of comprehension of the language, not necessar ily the English language but the difficult language of law because it's written, often the statutes and our laws are written in verbiage that is difficult to the best of us. But I hope, Mr. Chair;.. man, that over the course of time my department will be able to develop laymen's language booklets and periodicals explaining some of the fundamental laws and some of the laws which are utilized more or with which people ought to be more familiar than others, including the Highway Traffic Act and others . It's an awfully difficult problem to provide an

interpretation of the laws, because once you try to simplify the law by giving a kind of layman's language to what the law is, then someone thinks that that's exactly the way the law should be interpreted and you get even more complicated problems, so it's not an easy matter to render the laws simply so that they are simply understood. But his point is nevertheless well taken.

In connection with the Honourable Member from Rock Lake's concern about application of the law, I wish to assure him, as I have assured others of his colleagues on that side of the House recently, that there is no application of the law that to my knowledge is different under this administration than it was under the previous administration. Those who patrol the roads are patrolling with the same concerns to maintain the appli cation of the same laws.

Now there have been changes in the Highway Traffic Act that he as well as other members of this House have noted and in connection with the operation of snow vehicles adjacent to highways, there have been changes in the laws, there has been manifest I think by this government a concern for the highest standards of highway safety that it is possible to have. I think that's reflected in the statistics which my honourable colleague the Minister of Transportation has been able to indicate, revealing substantial reductions in the fatalities on Manitoba highways.

There is no question in my mind that you can't have respect for the highway traffic laws unless you have an adequate number of patrol officers to insure that people are respecting the laws. In our estimat·es passed by the previous legislature there was provision for some in crease in the number of highway traffic patrol officers and we assumed res ponsibility for polic ing the perimeter highway. So there has been some increase in the amount of highway patrols possible and I think this has shown beneficial results in the statistics of particularly fatal acci dents that we have each year in the provinc e.

In short then, there has been no change in the concepts of how and when interference is made in the rights of people driving on the highway. There has been a concern to make the highways as safe as possible . In respect to his concern about those citizens who are called upon to accept the responsi bility for service on a jury. I had indicated earlier that although I don't suggest that the increase that is provided for in the present es timates will in any way compensate for the effective econ omic loss to an individual who serves on a jury, it does provide for an increase from $9. 00 to $12. 00 per day.

It's still in many ways a token payment but it's much less of a token payment at least with this increase. The fact of the matter is that it is indispensable to the administra tion of justice to be able to call upon citizens to serve on juries and to also be able to compel their attendance as witnesses to give evidence in cases that come before the courts.

It's a hardship, it's a hardship, however, that under the Juror's Act is endeavoured to be shared in a reasonably equitable arrangement among the citizens of the province - and I won't go into the details of the preparation of jurors' lists and so on - but that's the whole purpose provided for in the mechanism that's in that Act.

In respect to the number of special constables, I'm afraid I ca n•t give the details that the honourable member is seeking but I want to assure him that road patrols and RCMP are the same thing, that is we employ the RCMP as the policing arm for the province and it's RCMP who patrol the highways and they are not special constables.

We have some special constables in the province that have been engaged by the Federal Government under provisions whereby they have engaged persons, particularly of Indian ancestry, and trained them to be special con stables on federal Indian reserves and they have done and exhibited a capacity to do excellent work in the field in the limited jurisdiction that they have. Now there has been some concern that perhaps this sort of technique should be expanded. However, presently that's a program that is completely under the control of the federal government.

So that's the only "special" constables of the type that I had mentioned earlier in discussing my estimates. Under the provisions of the Police Act, however, it is possible for every municipality and city to have their individual police constable apply and become a special constable for the province, that is that they have the right to arrest and so on, but it doesn't really go too much further than the rights of citizen arrest, for example.

May 14, 1971 941 (MR. MACKLING, cont'd. ) . Addressi ng myself now to the questions of the Honourable Member from Roblin, he was concerned about the sale of some products which have a devastating effect on people and yet it is not possible to deal with those who sell them. I know of the problem that he talks about, Mr. Chairman. I have had brought to my attention the fact that certain merchants sell an inor dinately large amount of vanilla extract and there is no question but this product is being con sumed for other purposes than baking cakes and pies and it's a terrible business.

I have en deavoured to try within the limitations that we have by using moral suasion through the police on those whose sales are obviously inordinate, that they discontinue this practice. .However, it is not possible under the pres ent Food and Drug Act to charge them with an offense and representations have been made to Ottawa in connection with this and there hasn't been any tangible result, The problem isn't an easy one, Mr.

Chairman, because there is such a great variety of what are otherwise non-dangerous acc eptable household products and drugs which can be utilized for debilitating effects , intoxicating effects and hallucinogenic effects. It is a serious problem and we don't have an immediate answer for it because we don't control the law in this area and it's a matter that we would like the federal government to do something about. The question about older trucks on the highways is something that has been with us and I suppose old trucks like a lot of other things will be with us for many, many years to come.

I think that what we are trying to establish within Manitoba is high standards of safety. I know it may be difficult from time to time to satisfy the requirements of high safety and yet be reason able in your application of the laws, but I'm advised that other provinces have much more rigorous standards in respect to safety features on vehicles and I don't think that our applica tion of the law is unduly harsh. We have a program which we consistently follow to endeavour to maintain the highest standard of safety and whether it be mufflers or brakes or steering or anything else.

I think that we are concerned as any· other government to reduce the carnage on the highways. The experimentation that the Minister of Transport has developed to date, indicates that there is a very low standard of highway traffic safety from a vehicle point of view and I think it means that there must be a greater challenge to us to improve the safety standards of vehicles on the road. MR. CHAIRMAN: It is near the hour of adjournment. Committee rise. Call in. the Speaker. IN SE SSION MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre. MR. BOYCE: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Member from Flin Flon, the report of the Committee be received. MR, SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR, SPEAKER: The hour being 12, 30, I am leaving the Chair to return at 2, 30.

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-3-40
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 3rd hansardpdf 40.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	3eba3fd811cb6764db96b54e1142019b9cee0720

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