PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 64 5th Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT FRIDAY, MAY 28, 1971 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

May 28, 1971 The House met at 10:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape 782 (morning) PK - 1 PRESENTING PETITIONS HON, a. R, CHALKER: (MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS): I be~ leave to present a petition on behalf of 233 residents of the communities of Brig Bay, Plum Point, Blue Cave, Pond Cove, St. Gen~vieve Bay in the District of St. Barbe North. A lot of the petitioners, Sir, are members of the !lementary School Board. at Brig Bay to St. Genevieve Bay. The petitioners prayer, Sir, is that the original localtof the new ', school be adhered to. ~he original site, Sir; was at St. Genevieve Bay.

Evidentally some person that has control of the transportation advie~ the crimmitt-ee that- the schoOl -would be plAced in the wrong place, as r'egard-g: bus ·trBI'fspOrtation, and he suggest that it be moved further to Sir,, the petitioners claim that this land is boggy and not suitable for the- sch- l and furthermore that it would mean that a lot of the cbildren,who would normally come home for lunch would be unable to do so.

Sir, I may say that I am surprised, because I understood that this beautiful new school they are building down there,that the site had been selected, lhis a complete surprise to me,that some difference of opinion has been made. There is not much that I can say about it, Sir, but I do know that the place that they had originally located at St. Genevieve's Bay was, in my opinion, ideal. With respect to their request, Sir,I ask that this petition be laid on the table of this Honourable Houee and referred to the department to which it relates. BON. F. W. ROWE (MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND YOUTH) : Mr.

Speaker, I am very happy not to exactly support that petition, but at least to indicate that whenrthat petition is referred, as I presume it will be,to the Department of Education, I Yill be very happy to have the matter looked into thoroughly. In all these questions of where schools will be located and what transportatic systems will be required in the event of new schools being built here and there, there are usually a number of factors, usually very many complications 4943

• •• I • May 28, 1971 Tape 782 (morning) PK - 2 MR. ROWE, F.W. and very often more than meets the eye. Nevertheless, having said that,l will ha,,. this matter thoroughly investigated to determine,from the standpoint of the Department of Education,what is in the best interest of the people concerned. MR. A. J. MURPHY: (LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION): Mr. Speaker, if I may,I received a copy of that letter.

It is one of these complicated things where apparently the propo!ed site for the elementary school.already referred to in the petition and agreed on by both the people and the School Board1 has heen refuted by our supervisor of bus transportation, Undoubtedly in the interest of Government expenditure. Now what the actual meaning of that is, I do not knm,. The petition hBs been presented and the Minister of Education~ assures us that he will have the thing investigated.

So I can only say that, in view of the fact this committee did me the courtesy of sending a copy of the petition, I can only support their wish, with the hope that the whole matter will be investigated in the best interest of particularly the pupils and in accordance with the wishes of the School Board. On motion petition received. HON. W. N.

ROli'E: (MINISTER OF COMMUNITY AND SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT): I be~ leave t~ present to the Honourable House a petition which I received from LaScie in the District of White Bay South and from the people of several other communities outside of my own district,in the district of the hon. the The petition, Sir, ~ffecting as it does school construction in the particularly speaking,outside bf the jurisdiction, constitutionally of the jurisdiction of any department of Government here, although Sir, not outside the jurisdiction of the House, by virtue of the Rouse does vote money to the Denominational Educational reeds as follows; "we the u~dersigned do hereby register names in a petition to our elected.representative.

We hereby state 4944

May 28, 1971 Tape 782 (morning) PK - 3 MR, ROWE, W,N, that the Integrated High School serving pupils from Nipper's Harbour, Snooks Arm, Round Harbour, Tilt Cove and LaScie lack the necessary facilities for a modern education.

Furthermore, the elementary school serving Shoe Cove and LaScie, 281 children, lack the bare minimum facilities and it is overcrowded, to the extent that with its physical construction it is a health hazard and a fire trap, 11 We strongly urge our representative, through your direct action through DREE or your efforts through the Denominational Educational Committee,to have monies made available to the Green Bay Integrated School District to rectify this situation.n The petition, Your Honour, is signed by more than 490 people, by their own count.

I have no hesitation at all in supporting the prayer of the petition wholeheartedly. For some years now, two or three years, I have been working,on behalf of the School Board and the people in my own district particularl½ to get this kind of a facility and I can say now that some encouraging progress has been made. The last word I had from Mr.

Hatcher of the Integrated Denominational Connnittee is that the present plan this year is to use the present high school, I believe, as an elementary ~chool and to commence the construction,after the detailed planning has done to commence the construction of a new elementary school for LaScieJ serve LaScie itself and these other places which I have mentioned. Of course, it is not for me to make that decisionnor anyone in the to make the decision, but I am led to understand that is the plan, which is very encouraging indeed.

I move, Sir, that the petition be received by this Honourable House referred to the department to which it relates. In this case, perhaps. Clerk were to handeaJ~ack to me, I would see that it goes to the Educational Committee. Mr. Speaker, it gives me pleasure to rise in support of .,,,,~~i~ petition and it points out the fact which we have been drawing to attention of this House over the years, that there is still a great 4945

May 28, 1971 Tape 782 (morning) PK - 4 MR, COLLINS: disparity between the opportunities provided to some of our young people in some of the smaller outport settlements, when contrasted with the facilities which are available in some of the larger areas.

It is all very well and good, I suppose, to say that monies are not available and that where schools are located is the decision,the prerogative of the churches, Certainly the conditions or the lack of facilities which the people who signed this petition point out certainly indicates, as I say, to me~that there is a great need for improve..~ent in that area to eliminate the very obvious disparity. It gives us great pleasure in supporting the wishes of the people._ MR, ROWE. F.W. Mr. Speaker, I should like to give my general support to petition as well,for two reasons.

First,of course, because of the for some ten years I had specifically in that area and,secondly, like all other hon. members I am concerned about educational ' ficilities. I would point out here, the matter was actually referred to by the hon. gentleman who presented the petition,that neither this House particular area, that matter rests with the constitutional authorities, this case the Denominational Educational Committees set up by law. this House1 and the School Boards acting under those committees.

However, I would point out and I know that all hon. members recognize in that in the past it has been very difficult to give all the that the church authorities and boards and the department would to have had given to these areas, because the sum voted by this House were not actually adequate to look after all the pressing needs in It is for that reason that we recommend to this House here, we have already adopted a proposal that this year we vote for the building of such schools ,instead of the $3 million we last year, we will vote $8 million this year and furthermore that ;•.D,0•7-- give the church authorities 1and this has been don~an undertaking 4946

Tape 782 (morning) PK - 5 that it ll our intention to request the House to vote e!':that, much money, $8 million, for the next six years.

In that ' ,f,}is•• hoped and I have every reason to believe that this is shared '~ohstitutional authorities, it is hoped that over th<0 next year authorities will be able to make plane and implement programmes obviate the very destressing need which has been represented to I have no doubt at all that in the next two or tha~many of these d:l·atreesing needs \.Till have been met as the- -decision of this House to increase our vote from $3 million in addition to any monies which might be coming under Such monies, which I should point out, Mr.

Speaker, !!EE" programme, while applying only to specific areas, will have ·lessening the overall burden which would otherwi•e fall authorities and on the Government and on this House. So spent in the coming year,on the be far in excesa of the $8 million that we tbe House to vote this year. m6tion petition received. NOTICE OF MOTION (MINISTER OF JUSTICE): Mr, Speaker, I give notice that ask leave to introduce a Bill, "An Act Further to Amend - so-ciety Act* II R.

CALLAHAN: (MINISTER OF MINES AGRICULTUE AND RESOURCES): Mr. \---:_--,-: ___ :- - - - eJ:-),~t.--glve notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a -';f-c1*An-Act TO Ratify, Confirm and Adopt An Agreement Made Between And Noranda Exploration Company, Limited (No Personal ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ROBERTS: (MINISTER OF HEALTH), Mr. Speaker, I have answers to questions standing in my name, they have been asked by the hon. John's East, Question No. 546, 547, and 548 on the Question No. 546, Mr. Spe.aker, the hon. member asked 4947

Tape 782 (morning) me to give all the names of all nurses, full-time employees stationed in the following places: He asked West, but I think that was a misprint. tte tell me it is, '-(!\'there-is nobody living in Rencontre West. So I have given the <tt:ior R~ncontre East, which I think is what the hon. gentleman had He-Raked about King's Cove: Iu view of the fact there are three communities in the Province with that name, I have answered each -All the others are &f!swered here, Mr. Speaker, and I will PK - 6 I will table a copyiit is quite a long list.

Question -:::<~he hOn. - gentleman askef me to list the places in Newfoundland t,,, .. · .. the '4or-- whe!'e/de.partment, by which I ase:ue he means the Department of ~ residences. Well, we own none, Mr. Speaker, as a department. t_own them either through the Department of Public Works or Nf!W:foundland and Labre.dot' ... it !lays Housing Authority, but ::~t-< is >the Housing Corporation.

We own I through those agencies, -:fifty-seven houses for medical staff and we rent an additional Again it is a fairly lengthly list and oo I will give a copy of the House and the hon. gentleman can have copies Speaker, Question No. 548, the gentleman asked to \mom fees of $6,000,shown in the

Schedule of Administrative the Newfoundland Medical Care Commiesion for the year 1970,paid) The answer is Kate, Peat, Marwick, you know, 'Describe the nature of the services rendered Ultarits7u These services were rendered in connection with the of Medicare into the Province, Mr. Speaker. The services I overall project management and development tat~Otl of the necessary systems and procedures. If there is could doubtless get it from the ~~-tters, who have since fallen into error and crossed the House, TheY-WOuld know more about it than I would. I should add, would get the hon. gentleman over there is well spent,in 4948

;28, 1971 Tape 78l (morning) PK - 7 ,~. ROBERTS: my opinion. I should add;the total cost, Mr. Speaker, of that \\ti;£p~-itiCular enga~ement of the consultants was $15,000, $9,000 was paid in Ili~e Fi8cal Year which ended March 31, 1969 1 the remaining paid in the 'g4nancial Year which ended 31 March, 1970. ,--';/ -]'.~~Mi{., EARLE: Before Orders of the Day, Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct ;/:/&;;, '/" "'if'>"' tti;:q~estion to the hon. Minister of Economic Development.

Would the minister i~I~vi:~ the House what action J if sny, he has taken on the announcement by It~tadian National Railway of the very substantial increases in passenger {f~-d vehicle fares on the ferries operated by the C.N.R? "~~N. J. NOLAN (MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT): At the moment, I do not ;::4¥-'h~'ve in -my possession,although I am waiting this morning to have a meeting, itr a copy or the details of the increases. I was informed of '\t1ii:_:_:::fir"St of all, Hr.

Speaker, last night when I had a call from a reporter. '\tt~i;~--r that time expressed some concern about the matter, as I am sure hon. :<~t{}i:::: - - ;i:ibbers are pleased by the fact that we have a new ferry, an extra one this year. The fact is we have some good and some /-the new ferry is fine. The increases are not encouraging to me. When not only of the Newfoundlanders travelling but also from I have always had the feeling at least, rightly the Trans-Canada Highway extents- from British Columbia to St.

John•s 1 that in all other areas or most of the other you can go from province to province by simply driving over the

Whereas, if you want to come from Sydn~y to Port aux you have got to pay your toll one way or the other. I do not I never liked it. I know,through Mr. Jamieson'e effort9,we were new ferry. I have discussed it briefly with briefly last night. I am hoping to have more meetings ·ae soon as I can get out of the House. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, before we go into Orders of the Day, I to direct a question to the hon. the Minister of Justice: Has 4949

)fay 28, 19 71 Tape 782 (morning) PK - 8 ),ut. MURPHY: any representation or any information been supplied to his Jlc~partment by the R.C.M,P. with reference to alleged disturbances at ferra ~?V8 National Park and the alleged arrest or surmnonsof nine miners, for c~suming alcohol,under age? MR, CURTIS: I think that question should be put on the Order Paper, Mr. Speaker. But offhand, I think, no. MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Economic -Development: Is there a draft agreement now in the hands of the minister -or Provin~ial Refining Company Limited, the directors of those companies, in connection with the repayment to the Federal Government of the full cost of--thi, wharf at Come-by-Chance plus interest over a twenty-five year period? tf_thai:-agreement is in the minie:ter's hands, when does he expect it to be ~~ NOLAN: Normally, I would refer it to thee Order Paper, but in this insta~ce my hon. friend and colleague,~the Minister of Health, had been _(i,.oiI>.g s~e work on this for me.

I do not know if he is in a position to p_iovide any additional information. Ml\, ROBERTS: All I can say, Mr. Speaker, is that that will be tabled 'iU ,the House. We are required to and we will gladly table any agreement. }:: agreementa have been executed by or in behalf, of any of the crown /3;/;'y: ' i:,:/>;,: ,-;_~orations. {I{f/:i,' CROSBI!: Could the hon. minister tell the House whether the question '"(jj>\(i'' duties or federal sales truces on the machinery ~d equipment from England has been resolved? Mr.

Speaker, I think there is a question on the Order Paper Well, is the minister going to answer the question? It is not addressed to me. Well are the Government going to answer the question? I do not know, we will have to see. Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Community 4950

,r···· i"4\.J,1ay 28, 1971 Tape 782 (morning) PK - 9 '~'!im. COLLINS: and Social Development. There appears to be aome delay in si·1:he signing of the DREE progrl!!l!!lle, can the minister indicate to the House i{ehe status of the proposed ARDA Agreement? MR. ROWE, w. N. The ARDA Agreement, Mr. Speaker, will be signed on ('.{~:-l!criiday or probably today, the announcement of it will be. The Agreement _c:,,--__ :--_' "'J.iitself will be tabled and the details of it I will announce on Monday fC~ing tin this House. ,;\{MR .. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, before we get to Orders of the Day, I would _;;;W/i:i.ke tO ask the hon. the Minister of Economic Development, whether the >\ ~tti-OJhe;- directors, besides 0 Mr. Grubb, had yet been appointed to the Economic :~:<f(,1if!veloJ)ment Corporation? If not, when might we expect them to be so ~!iW11ointed? I would like for the hon. the member to put it on the Order But the simple answer to that is 11 no." SPEAKER: ORDERS OF THE DAY Chairman of Committees. COMMITTEE OF TRE WHOLE ON SUPPLY /.CHAIRMAN: Order! Heading XII - Newfoundland Liquor Commioeion. carry? Mr.

Chairman, there is an amendment I believe, before the So we cannot carry it before the amendment is dealt with. The I have made, seconded by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, amount of thie vote be reduced by the eum. of $55,490, which ··/amount that represents the salaries of the Chainnan and members of Liquor Commission. I spoke last night outlining the amendment, the main reason having to do with the in connection with the granting of long term certain buildings. e?CPlained last night, Mr. Chairman, what this House and what the 'of Newfoundland want is information on 'Wbo owns the properties in 4951

Tape 782 (morning) PK - 10 ft.··•.··. -'ifif.-_-CROSBIE.: question and why these leases were entered into under the ,:~~~: ~Ud conditions they were entered into? The motion that I have made If a technical one. I realize that the commissioners are only technically ::;:t+-I> ~- - - ~~;ponB-i'~le for these particular actions, 'that the responsible really rests --~th the Government or the person who directed them to enter into theee -~:;::r-_::-:--- -teS.ses .. -Ther!! is no question about that.

I would withdraw the amendment, inf~rmation that has been requested -:j;--:5_ f~ti:he-Go~~mment would give the Rouse the __ :-i¥tfhe_- oi,P-~sition, by the Press and which should be given, as to the names t!i{he <>mier• of these premises and the reasons why these documeots were --~~~:~_ed int-a, with whose authority and the other information that is in the ,;;,t:;;,,\¥i~terest that should be diwlged. So ff that information is ' "'pg, Mr. Chairman, I will be quite willing to withdraw the motion it is forthcoming, we have no choice but to proceed with / Apparently, Mr.

Chairman, no one has risen to give us the So I can only say, Sir, that my feelings on all these matters, has been elaborated by the previoue speakers with leases 1and while I am on my feet,we were cautioned or to discuss the actual reaeon for this motion and exactly the same with reference to the officials of Commission, because in my opinion, Sir, they have dOwith signing this lease than,as I say about other things in -)--:_th-~ doorman do,;,m on Confederation Building down here. ,~-E{ f~~~ all this, Sir, we have had many unpleasant experiences There have been very many accusations back and forth and· lies with ministers who are re~poneible, I will not say responsible ministers, because they going around this tmm. today and around this Province, recent dieauesions with reference to the Newfoundland Liquor 4952

'.lt'iJi::?:;{;\ Tane 783(1'orning) apoallinr, Sir, the names of people that are beinr, brought into ma:ttet· ~fs "heinp: opners of these htlildin~s. T would not repeat tlii.s Pause h~re. I could but Twill not. Fut alJ this is due. the fnct thnt vou have a Government anr t{fnifltr.rs that are facts thtlt the r,ublic should knou • Now ~hat the true storv is I do not know, hut I wil 1 sav this, I 'Will be reprimanded hv the r,hair for doin~ so - this Chmrber veAterctav and this mRtter was cominr- un and , Hr.

Chaiman, at the coincidence of the r:h;liIT"!an havinv le,ft hand the nrder Paner of ~ay 5 an~ the nrooer nap,e One might just sav twhile vou are there ,that it is thf!-''Chaiman to trv anrl anticinate what , Fell. ~ir. 1 wi.Jl 1ust s:i:y thnt it was mi\ht come un. a verv sirnificant JU - 1 ·-i~tiittid.iit'ICe to -me. >~~!!AIIO'A!I: tt was not a coincieence,ns I hew it wns roinr to cof'le uo. TO me~ }fr.

Chairman~ whatever the Chairman's feelinr is. it _tr:nific1mt coincidence to me. r l-dll not make anv charges: thr.re. chnrP-e 1:-,ut I ·will immecU;:itelv -w-tthdraw it hec,1.use I still -in this House for the remaininl! few days th:1t remain for not proud of it. The roint I nm mal~inr, "fr. Chairnan: here is R Department of Governnent, an arM of C-0vern~entJ ~ir. Rnd throurh vast experi~nce outside this stronP'es t nolitic-a.l we.noon any r-0vernrnent con) ci use, anc:l 1 into any details on any of these other items.

Twill Malre en·t--as J - have ria<le it before :th.'t t this Government h:in 11sPil. r-·roJT!MiFision in the ~-rnrst political w:w tl--int :mv nP.'Jffftnent _c:011lcl he used. add. !;ir, ;md this is thrnuoh er.ncrirmce, th.?t this 4953

1971 ~~ne 7P.1(Moroinal , ;:'coJ:'!l!Tiissinn, nfl: f ;.r :1!'! rt?venuP. to the Gnvern~el':t 1 s ron.crrnA.rl, is ½¾ii T'lOSt pr,.fit;:ibl e one, as far as the Li her al l'artv is roncernei'. t~rn:-1, Sir 7 when we r,-et a l'lenartr'ent such '.-,~},!=-_bft-t_ -yielrls trericnrlcms nr/itP. that has ~o """ch nffe-ct on 1111 .TP - 'J T thinl· PP ,1.re rlc;il in('" .. j r!, one r>f tlH' P1nqt cnr,tl'.'rtinns r:ot 1rr,nw 11hat is set out in t1ie P.ct, '111t a ft:v Rhort n:itter wns hronr.,ht llD rmrl i.1: l,r;is inn] icrl. at lr.a,=;t t],;it the rhP.iTT1cm ;i.nd his 9onrrl were entirely entirrlv reaponsihle. ~ir. for anv trans;i.ctinns. anv that lrnvc heel'! sifTnerl rm hehnJ f o-f the '!er.rfoundl and To Fie thiR is not a true fa.ct herm1,=;e.

C:fr. anrl T I (10 not helieve that the rhain,,an nor any of his thinlr of 1fr. Vincent anrl Ur. n:u,fi.elrl anrl I rlo not on the Doard as such) T ~o not he]iPve, r.entlemen,and rentlernen they are Rnn T sav that most the authority, Sir. to arranee matters of h11sinesi=; ;l'lLe.ced bf'lfore us in this Fouse nnrl in the estinates. is responsible is doin~ a ~re~t 1\ireat iniustice to an awful lot of pP:orile, innocent ?xovfnce, ~ir, ,;.;rho are beinr accuset1 or inferrerl th.ryt out of thin vote,:mcl it the Hinister resnonsible or the to, the Prewier. 4954

auestions hrve heen aake~. The hon. member for Rurin an incident yesterday. an inci<lent that has not heen referred previous debate, Pir. where so~eone. some nerson or nersons friap.ine~ in this 'Province .-..1here we are forking out tho11santls thousanrls of rlollars anc-l the Government are nfrRirl to teJ 1 us uho is tr.e benP.ficiarv nf these great -the poor hardworkinr, neop]e of thfs Pro"ince. Mr. Chair­ it is rri.rdn;:;,l and 1 also think thnt~ln nnv other civ:f 1 izert j,rovince the r..-overnnent shouli' hRve ruts enour.h thev cannot suon1y this information. Sir.

They should --c-ause thev arP hetravinp a trust that hns heen placed uoon The maioritv nf the neonle are T"aiority of the T11eMbers, thRt !9 ~.lfly thev are the 'T'}rnt is why the.v :ire the r-f'lvern!'lcnt ancl' thev ::i:re wav you Fant to nut it, ·resnonsihle to I' thE! interest of all the neonle of the 'Province, not tvo, -~~r, five or six or seven or eight or nine favoure~ sons. use th.sit exnression hecause in mv oµinion, when the tn1th will fi.nd that the ownen=i of these builclinp-s are owerl Sir. o"?'eil SOTTlething by this Governrn,ent in power anrl T rlo it mavhe monev. j t T'ltl.vbe suonort.

T think Jt is :i disrrace, an ahsolute disr:race. "'- fac.ti::; hc1ve not heen forthcorninrr. All this discussion nll c1ll tlie insinuatior>s thr>t you hear, that oeonle that ;;ire inferrcd>that this is owned hv so anct so. it this nnn anrl it i!=: o•med hv thr1 t one, T. think thiR is onlv one ner~on anrl t'll?t is the Prel"'1ier or .it could he of Finance. :-1ri,.,, Sir, Fe ;,re here toC:iy ,,P;iin disr-ussin_l" dland Linuor Cor;r,ission ::tncl I as F;ir as I nr1 c.oncerned, ~ir. 4955 .P' - 3

Tane 783(¥ornJnr) JS not forthc0ri~~ then there is no ~ense o' us in this vote, The 0nnosition ~re as~in~ t~e '<J_,-·..,~ fe"eJ Pe are Pntitlerl to 1,onest ;,J'lswrrs, 1rnnest s't!\,en (IT eir,ht neonle on this s:frle of thP 1tr,use: h11t peorle Jn th::f.s ProviDcr. C::ir 1 who have the right to knr-w. -~'f::.ti-1ir MJy,.,C 1m in thei. r rnr'!s ;incl w,u ser it i.n this r('lrl'!;,C!'.fr! thnt ~•re rtre rcsnnnsil--1~ ~rir nrr the, half 0.J: this nrovincc. Thev <ire thi<> ones 1,1e ~re sprv:fnr. li.ere to rr>ri,..esent, ~ir. anil nnt ;mv ,..re>nt, 1'11onrr nnrl r,p,,: ··1,0nJ,.

J havP n ·i(thPv.-. thfs here, here, hPre or lipr,:o. T''ithout anv resr,onsi¾i 1 t tv, 1H r hrien nhrwrn to the way our ~nt is whv. ~ir. that iB nhu SC" rAr,,r ;::irC>ns rif our nf 0 0t!r ryeonle, Sir. have to rlo nithout thinrs th,'lt to_ 1:trf'.anse thiR rovPrnrent ar~ thro,.-fnr- their rmnev --\,_}n-:ie.'f~l!l-t-i.,t,rhoev~r thPV r;iv he. a::<£1i--1'111V -~uts~ :mv Bense of resnonsfhiJitu, Sir. on the --~-.;- 11mJRe,Vhether it l-i: tlH• Hfni.Rte.r of Pfn:mce nr the nm.,, :-t:mi' un not--, ~ir. ani:l tell 11s uhn is ~'.>ghO,t~-- tell us now.

Tf thev do nnt ro tht!t. c:ir. -:~'y-<_zi--rr1_-n~t fit, not <Fit to hold a resnonsihle nositi.nn -The--1-ion. T!'leril-er is tut-tnttfnv there, ncrh:mR !'8 beil1p; done, nerhaps the neonlc of Eonnvista money neinr. thrown nway to ~one in~ivirlual. Centre are not! f'ir, and T P-trnrantee ~et my hands. Sir, - Order! 4956 ,T',f - 4

Tane 7R3(Mnrninr) I wish I could ?et MY h:mrls, !=iir, on ;J fev thousnncl of tlollars that are beinr thrown arounc\ to hPln the neoole peneral administration. The hon. memher for St. John's an aJnC'n.clment ancl he h;,.s ex.nlainect vhv he h;:is moved There is no fault at all witl-i the Liouor Comrnission 1 as they are hefn~ used, Sir. li~e a Qt.her, _inriivitiual was used in this f-fotIRe n few short (1c1ys nro, ;\ '," __ r - the_entire responsihilitv of one ~an.

Bolo~na and that. \tiiSir.,-. 'J?efore this 1"'.otion is put and to avoiP any feelinr -;-J"1in~, Sir, that we feel anv malice r.rh:iteve.r towardfi the Liauor ror.nis~ion.will the person •:- for- perretratinr these fow] lenseR stanrl up nnd tell us :{--':,- - {itjl'er,?--_If not~ ~ir~ we have no other alternntive h11t to that is nut fonmrrl hv fTlV hon. friend for !-'!,_ f'htedrman 1 a:rmarentlv there i~ not roinr to he anv on these particular ~ccnsntinns Rni:l t 1;3}1p,leh_g1nteclly with the rern;irks ciade hy the hon.

I.ender of There is no business in this Province handle,:! by the t_h_at Sl"'lells so hir:hly as this narticular incident which the oucstion of these, leases. The Government ipp itself by its own silence,in not acknowlerlr.inp or -partfcular accusAtions. T c!o not thin!-­ c}.eaI'j.ng thet:1sP.h•P.s bet!.au,se thev cannot and thev wi'lnt to ~h~ ~tte~pts last nirht to silence this ~r.hate were c:,uite unheard 0f in a Derocratf c 1!011.c;e of Order nJ ense: 4957 .n-, "" 5

2Pth. 1071 .w - 6 ~~}?:f':RJ;I;_· fill r-fr•l-it. ~.1:. Ch;,_ir,.::m, 1 will trv to stic 1- tn t11e r,olnt. tr. refer tn thjs,r]th011{'"h it is AO co~ri1etelv 11nhe:=ir;,J-,J., _ _ -,,Jetely 1mth1~1·.:,l-1e th;it o r--o~rernrient wcmlcl :::il]oT,, this sort of thin):': ;:r,'o- on and not s;,y snfTleth:lnr aliout it, thnt it haa to he- rr.entionPrl nl!t nn tli(' rrener;11 nrincinnl of lin11nr amt the- ;ictions :>S the hon.

LP.nt:1t'r r,f the nnnosition l·nnT1s, vhile rl:ire.ct reSflC',...sf'"-ilitv o~ th~ ."irrvnnts nf' th.1.t r'onr(l is r!J't in ::i tlteir rr.Sfl£"1'1Ri,_,i1i.t,• h('criuse this SIT". of the f'-overnr'rnt is used so ,;lpqt,1rCly ~or nnliticnl p11r'1(1Sf>S. ½ein'." usC>P tr nroT"'Otc> t:!f:\~;er,,r.ient's ::!::,~fl'(' ;,_nrl its ~rienCsh:J.r-s :!n so rr>nv wavs tlrnt thoc;r ·< :run the -:.onrrl :irf'. comn1ete1 y ro•,•er1 cs!'. to tnh~ the actions that \-J~not:, in t~C:'ir r11•.'T' consc:iencc shon1d he tn1~C'f'.

T s:m T"Dnv a ·TT'eriher oF t½e rove.rnTT'Pnt,Rncl it shocl·ecl rre, 'flnt ho~1C"VC'r. '-'r. rhrtirMan, the-re is one stiJl outst;mdin~ nt .whict, T t:hink neecls reference tn a~nfn nnrl thnt jg in tl1e rlefuncterl hreTYC'.ry at <;te"'11envi 11 C' ,nhich h<'l:s noi,7 ove-r I believe,by Bison J\etrolen~ or sor:ie $t1Ch s11'i!=li~i::irv J~velir. That nartic:ular thinn- was :'I sc;i.ni!:i] frori the The Govf':rn.r.:ent ,tlirourh actions of the Preriier in ta.."{es, lost ~~nn,nnn. which we are now to]rl hns heen rccnvererl. recoverecl?

It haA bePn recovereC on ten vear T do not know, we h:ive not hear~ in this House have heen nrovided. The hrewcrv rtpo::trently fet'red or hon~ht 1 for $7.50:00(). for sonP..thin~ lil·e n ~ti. :1,rewt!zy, the nos t rr:oCe.rn and well enuioped in all the Province., ·advantages that possibly could he r,i.ven to it hv "1ay of truces and other concessions which are nrevelant at If ever there- vas a brewery that should hRve been able that should have heen,because it had all the concessions piven to it hy this Gnverrunent. Yet it went htL':;t an<l no1v 4958

Tape 7P3 O·'orning) million asset is sold for $750.noo, on the most Liberal terms. crerlitors of that hrewerv. tho!;e emnlovees of the went witliout s81aries :md th~ legitimate crerlitors around in rRnada receive Rny comoensation? They did not. ;~-es-were ignored. the creditors were ip;nored anil their monies ·'But the Governnient tried to secure its ~400.()fH). f:lonp.:-tern bonc'ls without interest .At the rate and e::roense and is borrowin12; money todav.St,no,non todav 1 to 4),in ten ve:us time,. represents $800,000l annroY.iJT"!fltelv ,if <he' illterest rates.

With the interest this is in effect costinp 5:400,1100. but $800,000, and that is a uure pift out this Province which the Government ~ade and which for. we m~y or MAV not si;et the S400.000. hack.

From what we can a. caretaker, of course, over the.re y1:>t and notl-iin~ Tt ~av takes vears for this hrewerv to get on its feet we hope for the salre of ~tenhenville thnt it does. that is created in S:tcnhenville or anytvhere else in the Net.rfounrllan..-! is r.ood for ~!ewfoundland an<l we woulc' lilre to and all other inrlustries succeed but we cto not like to or even p.:et underway, with encourarerent of tl1fs r-ivim~ away the people ts P.'Onev.

A hrewery, we heve somethinp; which is tantamount to nrintinrr currency it r:overn""!ent, over a rieri.od of ten yean:; ,will S400,t10(). :In interest. ,·hich they !'!.re ~ivim!'.,a lionn people to take care of this l-rewerv already obtRiner! 1v, .s1:1,crifical nricei:;. I do not see whv such n be Piven to nny ri11rchriser of such a r,oncv r,,,qJ·in° 4959 ,TM -

Tape 783(Morning) JM - 8 all water under the bridge, Unfortunately I do ever be forgotten because all we hear of in this ·_:t'S how- industries are created and what employment they give the other side of the picture,as Y:}l_;~ costing the people of this Province.

Here is a very tr'!ltion of the incompetence or even worse of this Government: eal was made and it is costing the people of this Province ·-/ ~tJtn- of money which coul~ be better used in other endeavours he Province where it is so badly needed. the whole question of liquor and its distribution not think would bear very clo,se investigation Government have prospered out of this and are The Liberal party prospers·out of it and iOsper and,on top of that,an action is taken by the <:1s--ut_1der, I believe, instructions from somebody higher deals which are outrageous in their very concept - any answers to these questions.

I do not know how there quietly and hear this sort of thing thrown themselves. Their silence speaks for itself so, 1:-1-_add nothing more.to this particular argument. '} amendment, item 1201(01) be reduced by the sum of 'jed, on division. carries, Mr. Chairman, there are a few make. The hon. member for Fortune has referred operation and everybody knows the story, of Brewery failed and the story of how they were law,implying that they had to pay no ta,ces 4960

' ,- Tape 783(Morning) JM - 9 on the beer they sold in Newfoundland, that they could ct the commission of $2.49 a case and just keep it themselves. 'ii_all familiar with the fact, of course, that Atlantic Brewery Government $407,000,I think the amount is,in connection on the sale of beer in this Province while they ""\:e_d ,lf~ich they did not pass on to the Government, in accordance I think that the Committee is vell aware, Mr.

Chairman, ')~.r the law, under the Alcoholic Liquors Act,the breveries are _p_l_e 1f#teen days after the end of each month, I think it is, to Government',;, conmiission on beer that they month and that Atlantic Brewery operated turning over to the Government one cent that they had collected from the public of - . $407,000, I think is the aJOOunt, paid by consumers ::_:Newfoundland to Atlantic Brewery ,as the Government's profit of beer.at $2.49 a case.was not transmitted -_C\Brewery to the Government of Newfoundland and that amount Now we are given to understand, Mr.

Chairman, etroleum or some company associated with Carutdian Javelin the assets of Atlantic Brewery at Stephenville ,e~ to understand that they are going to give the Govern- ,4! __ ;reSt bearing bonds, revenue bonds, to be paid over a period that if- the new enterprise is a success the money back over a five or ten year period. addition to the Government ,who lost their $407,000 ----negligence and gross carelessness, through gross failure to administer the law, through failure through a letter wrongly given by the Premier to

Tape 783(Morning) of Atlantic Brewing indicating that they did not have ithis colllnission to the Government, in addition to that $407,000 (k,vernment lost as its own fault 1there are ordinary of Atlantic Brewing Company Limited who are owed $342,302. JH - __ eferred creditors pa they have no security, they have no preference, -~--<oFd_inafy creditors and they are not, Mr. Chairman, going to that they are owed.

December 30, 1970 there ---t;->-of-them in the paper showing the amounts owed to various conceI'llll both in Newfoundland and on the Mainland, $342,302 r--ed- a"nd- that they will not get a cent of. ago in the House the Premier said that negotiations with the principals of the Bison Petroleum or were underway to see whether the Govern- / ;4({ anything to give these ordinary creditors back some or _-\(moriey, that negotiations. were underway. We have heard and in fact we have heard nothing since about _Ut!S arrangement with Bison Petroleum.

The Atlantic significant indication of the -~e __ Government or certainly the feeling of the Premier -~_o-- industrial development and econc,mic development in " - It _is the same attitude. as shown with respect to the \~oTllpanies~ The two that we have in the Province already, ers,_ do not have nea~ly the importance Jn the minds of -,,_ "-'-s the one that the Government hopes to get itself. respect to the brewing industry,it vas exactly the _er_e are three breweries in Newfolll1dland now, if ;__1~ ~reving or Bison Petroleum, three of them all ··ti1ianders, all manufacturing beer locally, all The market in Newfoundland for beer,when 4962

Tape 783(Morning) JM - 1 the tremendously high cost of beer in Newfotmdland, high is mostly the commission 'S.id, to the Govermnent and the transportation costs, the r in Newfoundland is much, much higher than it is in iovince,and that reduces the consumption of beer because beer is The higher the pdce the less consumption you are and the high price is caused by the fact that there paid to the Government of Newfoundland thiee breweries here. Actually two, from 4963

Tape no. 784 Page 1 - RW -point of view,"'from the point of view of production, of beer, can supply the whole Province of Newfotmdland, pbyaically. There is no room for a fourth, 1.mlese it is going outside Newfoundland. But four breweries in Newfoundland, there is no question about that. So, why assistance and aid be given to bringing in a fourth successful. is only going to result in one of the What is the good of creating fifty or sixty jobs b:r"e~-ery when, if that is successful, it is going to result present three closing down and perhaps eighty, ninety or a < It appears to me to be senseless.

That is That is uneconomic development. It is not -> th~ fourth brewery ,whether it is called Atlantic Brewery, t'<whS.tever it is called, has to_ sell its beer in Newfoundland, on it that one of the other three will close. Two could supply the whole market now,physicall; _._,,,, _ _icise.,to -my mind, Hr. Chairman, is an exercise in futility. '~fa:ii'd:inary concessions, there is no chance of its operation As a result of what the Government did from 1966 onwards, creditors are owed $342,000, secured ,~d ;;-Onsiiderable monies ,which they are now going to get in The Government are going to take $407,000 in bonds.

Petroleum is a success. If Bison Petroleum money, it will not be paying the Newfoundland Governme going to happen? The Newfowidland Government are ' E!ffort to give them concessions to try to make them profitc One bit if one of the other three go out of business . . its $407,000 back. The whole thing is completely ludicrous In th~t connection, Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the 4964

Tape no, 784 Page 2 could nq_w tell us what is the latest position on Petroleum? Has anything been accomplished with respect to arranging Ordinary creditors of Atlantic Brewing to get repayment of their Mr.

Chairman, I would like to say two or three things I will deal first with the two points that the hon. member The first point is Bison and the second is the ordinary ------The position with Bison,! am told and I have checked on days, the position is that the agreement was made by and the Industrial Acceptance Corporation and the <r,::-, - , e.pfance Corporatio°:• the three or four main creditors who have '.i~Ot",_had securJty for their debts.

The deal was made by Bison '":--crinipanies to buy out t~y, not buy the company but ' ------------- The banks,who had advanced capital loans to the not paid and so they were heavy creditors and they They foreclosed. They took over the property. So _)> -ac_ceptance companiest I think, Industrial Acceptance (Ia it IAC and CAC, Canadian Acceptance, they became the -e-property. I may be missing a detail as I go along,but the there were three classes of creditors that One was the banks and the industrial acceptance companies.

Newfotm.dland Govemment and the third were a number of companies, corporations, business enterprises in the Province. _classes. The first class, the banks and the acceptance companies. They had complete security. The second class all we had was (What is it called?) the others were secured. The third :creditors around 1 who were owed money (There were dozens and no protection and when the company failed they 4965

1971 Tnpe no, 784 Page 3 They did not ~ta dollar. l do not think they got a company failed and had no money. It could not pay. Bison The company failed. It wound up and went out But the property did not go out of existence. The property e'nville was taken over by the secured creditors, the banks ~cceptance companies. They took over the property. Bison bought :*tr from the new owners, that is the banks and the financial companies, ht- the property as a piece of property.

Having agreed to buy it er-S having agreed to sell it, it was not until a week ago, maybe long as a week ago that the final documents were signed. There every conceivable kind. I am told that it was on the part of lawyers for the banks, the lawyers for the acceptance companies s for Bison. There was one delay after the other, running it in­ ,,'c'/,,' so much so that it was only in recent days that the final Now I believe,as of today or at this momentJ I believe, _the property.

It had been agreed before that they would l believe they do 01Jt1 it, urged Bison or the officers of Bison to do \t::_he p_tj.vate creditors. They were not required to do it. They that owed the money to the private creditors. The and it wound up and went out of existence and that was It does not exist any more.The money that ommpany creditors went down the drain • The ordinary creditors cent of what was owed them.

So the new company that bought the property that the company had company.Bison.have, at my urging, agreed to make creditors, the unsecured and unprotected and unpreferred ~--c~re_d_i_t_o_r_s_,_But that is not what I really rose to sa:;..-­ tell the committee something about the proposals that to nationalize the sale and distribution of beer• in thi 4966

Tape no, 784 Page 4 A number of provl:nces did it. There are provinces in Canada have had these p~ovinces studied. We have had their systems that have nationalized the distribution of beer. They ;~ti.Ct nationalized the brewing of beer. The brewing of beer is st~ll :vate anterprise carried on by private companies, in those provinces in Newfoundland. They have not nationalized the breweries, the beer, huf they have nationalized the distribution of beer.

In those in those provinces, the brewery does nothing but brew beer and nothing The Sovernment of the province takes delivery of the beer from We had a study made of the system in We engaged one of the great firmB of auditers in the world, s the greatest. There are half a dozen really great world-wide firms accoW1tants and auditors and Price Waterhouse is certainly one It is the greatest or the second or the third greatest on ~arth. great firm. That firm had a wealth of experience in this They had been appointed by the Government of Ontario, i.e., to I'.!'Sur-vey of the distribution of beer in that province.

They had been 'd- by other provinces besides Ontario to make a careful analysis of _tea of beer distribution in those other provinces. They had, and they information about the distribution of beer, the coat of it and the profits made on the distribution. Because they had had this great experience, this Government Waterfiouse to come to Newfoundland and make a study of the beer in Newfoundland.

They made the study and they told us, _-advice, their reports to us that the Government of the Province could C , nationalized the distribution of beer_ as other provinces had realize,thR Treasury of this Province would realize, extra f-$2,300,000 a year.more than we are getting now, - $2,300,000. '::h~~e for more than a -year, Mr. Chairman. They made the kind of ;ng, pains-taking, detailed examination that probably only a firm ~rienced chartered accountants and auditors could make and than 4967

[- Tape no, 784 Page '---h~d already had great experience in that matter, in that tjier provinces, which Price Waterhouse did • They were here. 5 ;_1)ossibly three separate occasions. We were told that if the were to open a number of warehouses across close down the warehouses that were already owned by ___ ::Wei~es, because you can go to a town in Newfoundland and fferant warehouses owned by three different breweries, close go to another town and do the same thing, that :-·. could be made in that regard 1 in warehousing.

From __ --j,;--___ these great distribution centres, the beer would be - 'Liq-uor Commission' a own trucks end O'W'Il employees to the say the taverns, clubs, lounges, hotels, motels, the public. It would be delivered to those outlet loss of perhaps two or three dozen There would be no more than that. The Government million a year cash more than they now collect.

They -the breweries in Newfoundland, by stupid and expensive -_e_,'.sales, were adding greatly to their own cost of They were giving away all kinds of gifts to -r~-:-_:giving free beer as premiums to taverns, to encourage beer-rather than the beer of a competing.brewery. holidays, free vacations. no quorum. _:-__ ee gifts of many kinds• free beer as an enducement f!__-_beer of this brewery rather than the beer of those bartenders were given, also free gadgets given "k~di;ets of all kinds, all of which,because of the cost ~dtidfts of all kinds, were adding to the cost of :We-were told by Price Waterhouse that if we would 4968

\".; Tape no, 784 Page 6 distribution of beer, take it over completely, we ' $2,300,000 a year more than the Government were talcing in, taking in. breweries in the Province. I do not know were paid to buy them. There were three-local 'that were owned in Newfot.mdland, that were started in Newfoundland. ~~re Newfoundland companies, The shareholders were shareholders. They were Newfoundlanders. There are three - __ , They sold out to three big Mainland breweries: Molson and Laliatt 's.

Three gigantic brewing gigantic, came in here ,one after the other, they bought other until they owned all the breweries in this '-f!y°- paid for those breweries, millions piled on millions ,Mr, Chairman brewery here whose shareholders got, I think, $1 million each, There were· three, four or five shareholders. They were paid, a cheque for $1 million each by that big who bought out that local brewery. Another big in and bought out another local brewery 1with d on millions of dollara.

Then the third big Canadian bought up the third and last of the local out millions piled on millions. say that they paid at least $10 million to buy the These three breweri'es were not worth even half the money them.

They were not worth even quarter the money, the for them to buy them, as bits 6f proper_t.y, the land stood on, the buildings that stood on the land, the de the building, all the property of the three breweries were dollars that thosE Mainland breweries When the shareholders got tle cash, this man a cheque for a~ man a cheque for $1 million, the other man a cheque for $1 mill a cheque for $1 million, the fifth man a cheque for $1 million they got those cheques, the money they got was not got for value 4969

Tape no. 784 Page 7 ' e property they sold. What they sold was not just property. What -sold was an opportunity to those three big Mainland breweries to come have a monopoly of beer brewing and distribution in this Province. breweries -were buying was not just property, they were chance to make more millions in profits for themselves. Mr. Chairmant in Nova Scotia a brewery received $1.96 a dozen That is what you would get if you w'ere a brewer in Nova Scotia, get $196 a dozen. The Government of Nova Scotia buys all the that 1s brewed in Nova Scotia.

They pay $1.96 a dozen for the beer. rince Edward Island the same price, $1.96. In New Brunswick it is In lianitoba it is $1.87 a dozen. In Saskatchewan it is In Alberta it is $1.90. In British Columbia, it is $1.99. of those provinces are : British Columbia, $1. 99, a brewery is paid $1.99 a dozen for the beer they brew. In is $2.00. Now in Newfoundland, $2.59½, I~ is $2.93 in Labrador - J.s what the Newfoundland Government pay to the brewers in Newfoundland they buy from those breweries. The Newfoundland Government bu~ they brew.

The breweries in Newfoundland have only one customer 'e Province, the Newfoundland Government. They cannot sell a bottle They have only one customer. All the beer they brew in this can be sold by law only to the ~iquor Commission, The Liquor Commission customer, the only purchaser, having the legal right· to buy - are the only buyer. They buy the beer from the breweries In Labrador it is $2.93 a dozen. That is against) the -t_~-price across the rest of Canada of $2.00 1 the lowest price across $1.87 compared with our $2.59½ 4970

1971 (Morning) Tape No, 785 NC - 1 ' Now if the breweries of Newfoundland, getting those for the beer they sell the Newfoundland Government, are much profit as they would like to make, it could be because are under, unnecessarily, no need of it, but by an insane competition between them. They know it is admit that it is insane, crazy. They admit that. They that frankly. They told me.

They told me in my office. rs have come in and told me in my office that the competition between them,to sell their beer, one brewery trying to sell , more than another brewery will sell or the third brewery will breweries competing to sell its own brands of _advertising, by gifts, by premiums, by giving free beer to taverns ins-, by giving free holidays to bartenders, to encourage them to _'ft Particular brand, or brands, by gadgets and gifts scattered all and hotels and lounges and clubs and what trays, electric signs, drinking glasses, mugs, lavishly all over the Province.

That costs money, So ·--· that kind of competition and that expense that they go through, rieed to get $2,59and one half cents against the highest price Canada that is paid to any brewery 1 !n all Canada of $2.00~ a dozen more than any other brewery in the Nation. 52. 00 is that is ~1ew Brunswick I and $2. 59 and one half, or $2. 93, nineity­ in Labrador, but that would be the emallest part a dozen in the rest of this Province. thought that, acting on the advice .and recommendation of Price­ -we should step in, nationalize the distribution, take it eliminate these gifts and premiums, cut them out, cut out allow no advertising, allow no premiums, allow no gadgets, -glasses or anything els~, put it on a strickly cash basis ,-o~-outlet for beer woitld be able to get a case, a bottle If a tavern or outlet of any kind wished ";~e-st warehouse and pick up their own beer in their own car or 4971

Tape No. 785 NC - 2 fine; they would save something in doing it, lf '<tiquor Commission would deliver the beer to the retail outlet 'nearest warehouse and the 1 Govemment would make $2,300,000 extra the brewers would not make any leas or very little But what happened,Sir7 What happened? What happened was that intensive campaign, some of it in this chamber, I will name no campaign.was organized and carried on to fi,om doing it. -we have not decided not to do it.

We have not decided to do j:e-Waterhouse told us that we could deliver beer for a cent to '"- ~ a .. half a bottle, their estimate of•what it would cost the ~d Government or the Liquor Commission to deliver beer from·the y:- the nationalized distribution system to the retail outlet - In Corner Brook and Stephenville? In Newfoundlan~, in the Province a cent to a cent and a-half Corner Brook, Stephenville or Port aux Basques - To the Province I said. To the Province it would cost the closer you carried it.

But ,_ot do this ,for example, you would not have a truck pull up to a -~ell beer to that tavern and then an hour later another truck \the same tavern and deliver some beer and an hour later another _up to the same tavern and deliver beer; that costs money. ·Jiave one truck with one delivery and you save money per bottle, . Now Price-Waterhouse,of course are, as you know Mr. ;~uches,3tunned. stupid - __ If the members bad advised the Government on leasing places, some - D: They know nothing. They know nothing. They have no experience. __ t_ examined the liquor system or the beer system in any other Province, 4972

Tape No. 785 NC - 3 " so they came here as complete ignorant green home and they a year here investigating everything, and they came up and told us that distribution, put in a thoroughly modem system of it, you ~ould have to have computers, you would have e _the last word in modern accounting controls and you could deliver to a-cent,.and a half a bottle,averaged over the Province, that in some parts and more in others. This campaign that was waged, enlisted the unions, enlisted the enlisted the distributors. Mr.

Chairman, I hope no one dares me names of the distributors and the volume of their sales, how sell, I hope nobody does that and I hope nobody dares us to the names of all the distributors in the Province, the amount of beer of money they make - $10 thousand,$20 thousand, $30 I hope nobody asks for that. In fact I do not think d be right to give it. It is private business today. These distributors men, engaged in private business. : It is all right, Mr.

Chairman, for the Premier to publish s- of the distributors who are making $10 thousand, $20 thousand, I would like to see how many are making that much are making $30 thousand a year1 Not many. But I said making from $10 thousand to $30 thousand Some are making $10 thousand and there are l!IOre making $10 thousand, .here are making $30 thonsand. There are more making $11 thousand than ~e: making $29 thousand, and ti,ere are more making $12 thousand, $1 ,_ d -a month, than there are making $28 thousand a year. There are than there are making $25 thousand, and there are are working for it.

They are working for it and they are earning it and they for it and they are private business men dealing vith firms but it costs money and that is why they are not 4973

Tape No. 785 NC - 4 distributing beer for one cent a bottle to one cent ' but if the Government did it, they could iistribute _r,. ;hat cost and make more than $2 million a year for the Treasury, what the Treasury is making nO'W' out of beer. I do not believe this Government can do it. Mr. Chaiman., what I can only call a vile campaign was It was really vile. It was carried on by companies that were to death,and the pressures that were brought to bear from the moat source, the most unexpected and tmsuspected sources. You should people that came to me, privately, to ask us not to do it.

Some of that w,as carried on was decent and civilized, honourable. After is a business man and his business is the distribution of beer, 'g wrong with that, that is an honourable business and he is going to lose you cannot expect him to be happy about that. You do not comes to me and says; 11Premier 1 you know you are not really goinE Now it is unlikely that he will say~ "now do not d~w;l.th it, because if you do I am out this income." He is not going t_hat is his reason~be will give some other reason. It will probably but the pressure is put on.

There are eight or nine hundred or between seven hundred and in the Province Wo are agents, brewers' agents. Now make net clear profit every year, between $10 an agent e $2 thousand or $3 thousand an agent, trifling amounts. Some of _-_not sell 50 thousand bottles of beer a month. Some of them do not that and really not very many of them sell anything worth talking --there are seven or eight hundred of them in the Province -- 1£ they I _}enlisted, if they were all enrolled in the great holy crusade, the ade for justice and democracy against the tyranical government.

As a result of all the pressures that were brought to bear, the t-decided to defer decision. That is all we have done 1 We have But we do know this, that thereare a couple dollars a year 'and.as the population increases and as the economy 4974

, 1971 (Morning) Tape No. 785 NC - 5 MOOD: increases and as the prosperity of the Province increases, rather more beer than they are drinking now, that would become $2,500,000 and reach up,after a while, to a year. Sales this very year, so far this year,sales are this year and this is the 28th. of May.

January, ');y_,_ March, April, May, five months,the sale of beer is up eighteen t compared with the same five months - three months, the first )no-nthe, compared with the first three months last year, the sales , eighteen per cent,which means that there is a bit more prosperity, c;m afford a bit more •to buy a bottle of beer or to buy an extra mid the sales are up eighteen per cent.

And as the sales would continue to go up in the next five, eight, you, if you drank a bottle of beer in Newfoundland, you would you were doing two things:· (1) you were helping the breweries, and the truck drivers and the van drivers and -~k~rs in the headquarters of the Liqaor Comission, the accountants, and :~rollers, the employees in the warehouses, the employees on the trucks s around the Island. (1) you would be helping all of them. you would be helping the Treasury of the Province. You would to put two and then two and a.half and then three millions a the Province,and not costing you any more for your beer.

So that is why we have not decided not to nationalize the take it into our own hands but only to defer Before I sit down. let me say one other thing. Mr. Chairman, I _r_~rk earlier that might have puzzled some hOh. members, when I said breweries in Newfoundland have only one customer, the Newfoundland If a citizen sees a brewer's truck load up with beer in the and stop at one tavern after the other and deliver beer ,_lect the money, that citizen is likely to say, "well, the Premier the breweries have more than one customer,. 11 True the nt are a customer. The Liquor Board will buy some beer and put it 4975

28, 1971 {Morning) Tape No. 785 NC - 6 HALLWOOD: in their stores for sale, but that is the only beer the beer, the bulk of it is sold by the ~ries to taverns, to hotels; to motels, to clubs, to lounges, to bus outlets of all kinds, that is where they sell it. No, Mr. Every bottle of beer that is made in a brewery ought by the Newfoundlsnd Government and we determine what we pay it-~ not the brewery, we will tell the brewe'rs what we will pay for d-the Newfoundland Government buys every gallon, every pint of beet' is-brewed in this Province.

There is only one customer, the Newfoundla that customer tells them what they are going to pay for it, "S the brewers what they, the Government, will pay for the beer. They /fol" the beer $2.59 and one half cents a dozen, on the Island .and the breweries deliver it on behalf of the Government. a brewery loads up with cases of beer, that beer belongs to the to the Liquor Commission, and when that brewery delivers cases 0£ beer to a tavern and collects the money for it, ·they an agent of the Government. Until the retail outlet buys the and pays for it, it is owned by the Government not the brewery.

The Government sets the price that it will pay the breweries they brew, the Government sets another price, the price at which will deliver it to the outlets, that price too is set by and the Government have the right to set the third price, by the retail outlet to the individual consumer. I do not whether we do it or not.

I think we have the legal authority to do it • . is a wide variety in the prices in the retail outlet, you one bottle of beer#in a hotel or motel or lounge or any other pa~ a price for a bottle of beer rsnging.from 60c to 80c a bottl a wide variety of retail prices 1 in the !etaii' outlets, but the the retail outlet pays for the beer is set by the Government and by the brewery, acting as an agent of the Government. 4976

(Morning) Tape No. 785 NC - 7 WOD: Now the Liquor Board could say to the breweries; beer you make ,as tip to now, will be ours, but unlike up to start now-delivering it where we tell you to deliver of the beer could be delivered to the Liqour Board here !. , John's and to their warehouses across the Province. A 11 of it 1 physical distribution would be done by the Government, by Commission.

T .hat is what I mean by nationalizing the , ~~tiQn, taking into the Commission's hands the actual physical ling of the beer, II here now it is handled by the breweries on f .of the Liquor Co111111ission, then it will be handled by the Liquor __ s~ion itself, with its own hands, its own employees. Inaudible. The same people who do it now, that is the retailers, the public, the St. John's citizen, would continue to buy he now buys it. the brewer's agent.

If there were a Prewer' s agent• if not brewer a.• agents,, from a tavern, a club, a hotel, a motel, a lounge, all the there are in the Province and there might even be1 in places or not enough taverns to suit the convenience of the consuming might be a number of. breve~~, agents. But the brewer&' agents beer,as the taverns would.from the nearest Liquor Board "_~ouse1 _!!OW they get it from the nearest breweryJs warehouse. But the then would belong to the Liquor Board where now it belongs to the The brewer warehouse delivers the beer to the br~er's To the distributor and to the retail outlets. Right.

In some cases,the distributor collects the beer and he delivers taverns and all the otfer retail outlets, 'Ih&t is actually done dietributor,who picks up the beer from the brewers, the nearest 49"17

y 28, 1971 (Morning) Tape No, 783 NC - 8 • SMALLWCOD: Warehouse of a. brewer, he picks up that beer and he He has his own trucks. He delivers it to the ustomers and he collects the money for i~ because he has got to pay Be has got to pay the brewer,in other words, so e collects it from his customers. The distributor is a go.between, middle man between the on the one hand and the brewer on the other. In·&etween it the distributor.

The brewers have found, practically,they have found. a ·sm.art and popular distributor, take a stretch, any the Committee likes to think of, if in that stretch of distributor who represents a certain brewery, he is a od fellow, he is a clever fellow, he is ingratiating, he has a nice that distributor will sell more beer for that brewery that _e _ represents than they would sell themsel vea or that another distributJOr sell, and•'some distributors are better than others. If you have two distributors in the•same territory, the on~ that 11 probably do best is the more popular man, the more efficient man and on. HON.

MEMBER: Inaudible, SMALLWOOD: Some do yes and some brewers' agents represent all breweries a-f is true not only of distributors but it is true, I believe, also of HICKMAN: A lot of people do not go to taverns. SMALLWOOD: And they do not want to go to a tavern or even a club a lounge or a motel or any place where people congregate to have a bottle -beer. They want the case of ~eert or the dozen,in their own home,and a bottle of beer. I often, when I go home myself,.. I !!ICarcelv eVer go in a tavern. been in ten taverns in my life and.put all ten together.I have t been in them twenty times in my life.

Not that I lOok down on them. I not have time to be going ~o tavems 1 for one thing. But when I go home frequently happens , if I 4 9 7 8

May 28, 1971, Tape 786, Page 1 - apb ¥orning. MR, SMALLWOOD (J.R.): arrive-home parched and dry, especially if I have spent all day in this House, the first thing I do is get a bottle of cold beer. I am not going in a tavern. So, there are 'thousands of citizens who would prefer to have their bottle of beer in their own home. I personally, speaking personally, would be in ~ivour of havin~ beer sold in the supermarkets and the grocery shops. In fact, it is sold in grocery shops now. I was in a grocery shop in the Town of St.

George's and the di"stributor there for some brand, I-forget what brand it was, I went in to buy aomethin~ or other for myself. I was hungry and I went in to buy a ba~ of biscuits. When I went in, the shop ~as half full of cases of beer 1 piled up. I enquired, I said: ''what is all this? 11 He said '"that is beer.'' "Why is it here? 1 • He said~ ''I am the distributor. '1 He had a retail shop and he would sell there in the shop. I do not knoY Wether that is lawful or not ... MR. HICKMAN: , It is lawful. It creates •.. MR. SMALLWOOD: I do not think it was St. George's~by the way. It was not St.

George's, because, I am not sure whether it i.ras legal or not. ~l. MEMBER· MR. SMALLWOOD: (Inaudible) No, it was not St. George's. I think it begins with _Saint, but not St. George's." It might be St. Michael's, St. Patrick's, ' St. John's or St, Paul's, but not St. George's. 2ffi. HICK1''AN: Nor St. Lawrence? . MR. SMALLWOOD· It was not St. Lawrence. This distributor was the owner of a shop, a grocery shop. That is where he stored his beer. You could go in and buy a case of beer from him. You could not buy one bottle, but you could buy a case. ~. HICKNAN_:_ That creates a problem.

You have a small community say vi.th three small storekeepers. One man is a brewer's 11 ~nt and say, la~fully he sells his beer from his store. This puts the other two in a most unfavounable competitive position, because the 4979

May 28, 1971, Tape 786, Page 2 - apb Morning. beer is the attraction but they buy the groceries when they go into the same store. MR. SMALLWOOD: Right • .AN HON. MB'BER: He is supposed to have it sftl)_arate. MR. S!'ALLWOOD:. It is what you might call almost not a loss-leader because it is a profit-leader. It is a thin~ that entices customers in, to buy other things. I am the first to admit that the distributor,in a good many cases, I do not know in how many but in some casee,perfoms a useful and necessary function. I am prepared to admit that.

I run _prepared also to admit that the breWer's agent,in a good many cases, performs a useful and necessary function. I do not think that it is so much the money that goes in their pockets that is driving up the cost of delivering beer to Newfoundland, I think it is this wicked, foolish, stupid: insane competition. These breweries will ~et together and they will admit to themselves, "for God's sake boys, we are jackasses, we are fools, we are fodls.

It has to stop. 11 They will agree to stop and,just like our salt cod fish exporters in the old days,who would meet and agree on the prices they would charge for this grade that grade and the other grade,in Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece, and Brazil and the other markets - the m:eting WOuld not be ended and they would not be out on the street before they would be breakin~ that market. So, also, again and again and again, the brewerS of Newfoundland have met in private meetings, they have done it again, and again, and ag8in, and again, countless times.

They have met, they have agreed that they were acting like fools, that it was unnecessary, that they would stop it, but they never did 6top it. This has happened endless times. They told me, so that is how I know. I was not present at their ~tings., They came to me in my office and told me of this stupid, stupid practice they have. If the Government were doing it1 there would not be anythinf 4980

May 28, 1971, Tape 786, Page 3 -- apb Mornini;i:. _like that. There 'W'ould be efficiency. It would be computerized, and while there ~i~ht be the loss of a few jobs, not many, HR . !-'UP.PRY: J!R. SVALLWOOD: four hu11dred. ~. M1J?.PIIY · MR. S1-'ALLWOOD: }!R. l'l'F.PRY· HR. S!IALLliOOD: About three or four hundred. Hot three or four hundred. Nothinf!; lilre three or Co~e on, come on. Not at all. Beer still has to be distributed. Sure it has. It still has to be distributed. There still has to be trucks.

There would be no reduction of employment in the breweries. 1-'R. l'l!RP!lY · - -· It is a pity there are local people into this, otherwise you would not hear a "'ord about it. The Premier is so _1ealous of anything local that is making a success. MR. Sl-lALLWOOD: Local, local, local. The breweries local? NF.. MJRPHY: Yes, absolutely. tIR. SMALLV.'!QOD: The biggest, the most monumental profit mal--ing organizatlons in Canada are (

A) the oil companies, and (

B) the breweries. !-'R • }'l!RP!lY: }IR. S}'ALLWOOD · Whnt about the liquor crowd'? All the liquor agents are.,. And they all make noney too. It is a very profitable business. He do not propose even to consider the idea, \lie are not even goin? to consider the idea of nationalizinp.; the dis~ribution of liquor, \~e would not dream of it, but to nationalize the distribution of beer could he sensible, it could be level-headed, it could be practical, and, for the Treasury of our Province, it could be profitable. We have to think of that. He have to think of the Treasury.

Every year,as we come into this House and ask the House to vote millions and scores bf millions, hundreds of millions of dollars,for·us to spend on everything under the sun, all over the Province, that would make newfoundland a better Province. As we cooe in here every year asldng for these hundreds of millions of dollars, 1;,'e have to think of the 4981

ttay 28, 1971, Tape 786, Pa~e 4 apb Morning. sources where it is coming from. If thereJ,.re. a couple of million dollars a year 1 to start with, ·not, two, two and a-quarter million to start off with, if there is that,! am not sure we should forE!'iler dismiss it, and forever not do it. We have decided not to do it at this tirr1e. We are. not going to do it this year. We might very -well do it next year. f.,s a result of tha.t sentence that I .1ust uttered, the last sentence, I have helped the Tory Party substantially in the coming election.

I could spell it out and tell them how, but I do not need to, they Ynow. }fR. l-nJRPllY: Phat r.:oney did the Tory Party get from the great breweries? Will the hon. r,iember tell r:ie ·what money his party got from the great brewe-ries? Is that what he is vexed about? l!R. SMALLWO_O_p· I am not vexed about anythfnr. I am not vexed. The hon. gentleman sounds vexed. Has he ever had any connection with beer? The only connection I have ever had is to drink a bottle of beer occasionally. I have not drunk two hundred bottles of heer since, I was born in the world. }ffi. "!TRPHY: Perhaps that was too much. :IBl.

SHALLWO()D___:) Haybe that was not enough 1 maybe that was too much, but that is· the only connection I have had with beer. Mt. MURPHY: I worked for a brewery. MR. St,<.ALLWOOD· Well, all right, the hon. gentleman maybe knows someth::l about it. MR-=-.JrnRPHY:_ The biggest employer of labour in this Province, bar none !1R. fil!ALLWOOD :_ Arn I knocking them? Am I saying otherwise? MR. MURPHY: Let us abolish it, that is right, MR. SJ-!.ALLl-100D: Abolish what? !ffi.. }!gRPHY: These mens I jobs. The breweries? Abolish the breweries? HR. SMALLWOOD· MR. HURPHY: The jobs that these men are occupying.

Give them to the 4982

l'ay 28; 197 I. Tape 786. Page 5 -- apb 1"orning. Government so that they can give ·them to one of their great friends, so that he can ••• mt. fil'ALLWOOD: The hon. gentleman sounds very indignant, I do not know why. I am not proposinp, to do away with bingo or anything like _that. I am not even proposing to do away with breweries. All I am 'proposing is, that one day the Government should nationalize the distribution of beer •. Mind you, there might be a case for nationalizing the brewin~ of beer. ' MR. t'lTRPHY: Or pork and beans? SH/\LLWOOO: Why not? Why not?

Why should not the Government decide to be the only brewer of beer as well as the only distributor? Why not? Is there a good reason why not? Yes. SMALLWC\OD• I would like to know Yhat it is. }f[IRPHY: Because this GoverOJT1ent tangled up whatever they did. rness of the brewing business. ' If we were to nationalize the distribution of beer we would put in, the smartest, most efficient, most businesslike it that any outfit had 1 in the Province.

If we were nationalize the brewing of the beer as well, we would do the same We have no thought of nationalizing the brewing of beer, the We have.thought of nationalizing the distribution of it t;T,,,To millions a year into the Treasury that needs that That is all;thought, but we are not going to do it this There will be speeches,I would assume,from each one of the seven or eight of them, so it is worth seven or 1'1lRPHY: It will not take an hour and a-half. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, the •.. SMALLWOOD· It took an hour and a.half to outline the thing,did 4983

y 28, 1971, Tape 786, Page 6 - apb Morning . • MURPHY_:_ Do you mind Sir, for a moment. Now, the beer that I am aa a partaker of the luscious substance one who was employed by a brewery for some eight, nine or ten and I have stood up and sat down this past three or four years to this hour or hour and a~half of this ~reat thought On the part of the Premier,where he is going to nationalize the distribution of beer. and he is only going to do away with one dozen possibly a dozen. Such utter trash and bull I never heard in my Such bull'.

Price, Waterhouse come in, r;ranted they are a great company, Premier did not sayi 'look, will you eY..amine the rest of our The rest of our busi~ess dealingst We are paying hundreds thousands of dollars for buildings that we could own without costing tenth/ 1 But the Premier gets very much upset, and he seems to a certain,! do not know \o'hat it is, oppression for anything that ...... Now, as he said, yes, I know, all the breweries sold out years ago. They started as local businesses riRht back - think~is over one hundred years old.

They have one ·agreements of any other business or anything else in I do not hold any brief as such for the breweries. I 'do not receive anything from them. I do not get any free beer delivered to_my house every week or every month. I do not. I am just speaking ,as a concern~d Newfoundlander who is familiar, very familiar with the _hundreds of Newfoundlanders that earn a decent living from the thi~ Province. The Premier gets up and he talks about how we are paying, charging the breweries more.If you like, for the bottle of beer or dozen beer ...

We are not charging them more, we are paying them more. • M1lRPHY: The Government is paying them more. All ri~ht! We can 49B4

}lay 28, 1971, Tape 786, Page 7 -- apb Morning .. play on words if we want to. Here we are, Nova Scotia,with whst, half aa much a~ain as our population 1can brew beer far Cheaper,because of the demand. Naturally enour,h, in a brewery you have a machine. That machine, if the breweries wanted to,today they could operate their machines for one month, one monthi just about, 8nd supply every·bottle of beer that was to be consumed in this Province for the next year just about. They could do that. They would save hundreds of thousands of dollars in labour. They could do that.

I have known and I have to speak fairly of breweries, through the winter months when the demand for beer was way, wy down, ,._ they kept maintained, in pretty well one hundred per cent of the ✓ cases, their staff right through 1 on a bit of maintenance work to provide employment for them. To hear the Premier stand up here in this House and ipeak in such language, you l ould think those breweries were a bunch of highway robbers.

When we witness, and I cannot refer to a previous debate, when we witness some unknown persons getting thousands upon thousands of dollars, just for sitting on their backsides doing nothing- at least, these breweries are supplying jobs. I do not know the exact figure, but I will guarantee anywhere from 600 to 750 people are earning a decent living through the three breweries, either directly or indirectly. The only thing wrong 1 P."r. Chairman, with our Newfoundland Liquor Commission, is this, It is run exclusively, it is controlled exclusively by the C.overmnent and the members of the districts.

Now 1 can document~ proof that you like 1 brewers'aients, distributors, whatever you have, unless he gets a prior approval of a political member on that side of the House, he is out. He is out, absolutely out! !IB- STRICKLAND.:_ Never in fifteen years have I touched it in any way. There is a gentleman here •.• 4995

1971, Tape 786, Page 8 - apb Con~ratulations. Never in fifteen years. Congratulations, two exceptions. Make sure of your facts. Never in fifteen years. I refuse to touch it under any circumstances. I am sure of my facts. There is not a brewer's agent appointed unless he has the political okay. Not by the member of the district. }fR-. MURPHY: I did not say the member said it. The member does not believe in liquor anyhow. I am not brin~ing the wember into this. MR. STRICKLAND · You said the member of the district. That is what you said. MR • J-IURP!IY: I said it is political.

He has to be okayed by a politician on the other side. MR. STRICKLAND: 11 0r the member of the district;'you said. MR, MURPHY: 'or the member of a district. I did not say Trinity . Sciuth. Every license had to be approved by the hon. member. I know he has been approached many times like a lot more. MR. STRICKLAND: I refused to touch it. }fil • J-IURPl!Y: Possibly he says; !!I am not having anything to do Yi.th this.,, MR. STRICKLAND: I ~--ould not do it for my mother. MR. ),lt)RPHY: That may not be his political belief. It may be his , ieligious belief, I do not know. I do not know! When we hear.Mr.

Chairman, of the breweries and we look at the taxes, ?eople talk about the high price of beer, of a bottle of beer in this Province, v.i'e have a set of regulations, (and I have said this for eight years. Eight yearsij A set of regulations that were drawn up in 1952, where the price of Ceer is pegged at thrity-five cents a bottle. How many bootlergers are operating ~~ceased premises in this to~m or Province today? That is still in 4986

May 28, 1971, Tape 786, Page 9 -- apb Morning, the regulations. Read them. I have had too much experience pver eight or nine years,Mr. Chairman, too much experience with the racket that goes on in beer and liquor in this Province. The Premier is trying to assassinate the breweries eh? Trying to assassinate the breweries} They spend molley on advertisinp;. They have neon signs. They have ' this, they have that, they have something else. Free trips for bartenders. What are the great liquor agents doing for this Province? Ras the Premier threatened to remove their commissions? How much would we save there?

Could this Government not go to any of the big distilleries and say "we want to buy direct.' They would not do that because too many of the faithful would lose. I would like to know what some of their incomes are1 Perhaps the Premier would go the whole hog and tell·us what some of the great whisky distributors, rum distributors and gin distributors -are making off this, without even having an employee in this place perhaps. It sounds grand you know. We are going to save $2 million for the Government. I would say1 Mr.

Chairman, after about or three years this Government would lose money on it,if they they way they are acting now. Lose money, not talk about making It sounds grand all those great schemes. Sounds grandJ The greatest racket ever was known was the liquor business in this The greatest racket,and I know that. As I said earlier, the Premier must be a bit upset with the national compani.es. Perhaps not kicking in enough for the slush fund that kept his party for so many years. Would this be the trouble?

Would this be The Liberal Ball, the great programmes, hundreds of of advertisements from licensed premises in this ProvinceJ ery liquor agent had to put an advertisement in that Liberal Ball rogra:mme. How many did the P.C's. get for their anniversary ball? meone guessl Start at one, start at two, but you will not see any 4987

~~y 28, 1971, Tape 786, Page 10 -- apb ~orning. names in it. I get so disgusted when I hear this. The past three or four ye~rs they stand up,with this great survey that was made by Price, Waterhouse. What a lot of bunkum. An hour ago here, we ~bowed where the Government is giving away $74,000. What was the total amount? AN HON. MEl'BER: $74,000.00 MR. HURPRY: $74,000? A million and a-half dollars 1over twenty years? Possibly Sir, the Government could now attack the cost of living.

I think ve could certainly cut that down, if we went to all the agents for pork and beans, for all the rest of the canned stuff~ We are just going to have one warehouse, one truck to deliver. Why should eight or ten firms have their trucks delivering something? We can do that much cheaper. Do away with them. Just have a common warehouse where all the food will come in. Would that not be a good idea? Would it not be far better than worrying about beer? The _ t.7_hole hB.lf _million of us eat food but I do not think that many drink _beer. I do not think that many people are concerned with it.

Would - tJJ,at not be a wonderful idea? Would that not be a good plank in the P.C.Platform, to nationalize all food coming into the Province? AN l!ON. HEMBER: We will have a beans marketing board. A beans marketing board, there you areJ There is a good idea! When you have to listen, Hr. Chaiman, heavens almightyt if that This great, you knowt Price Waterhouse. I have·seen their names somewhere, but they are' 1 the gre.atest • .w There was nothing that d~d anything for this Government yet but had to be the greatest,or -the second. or the third. It was never the fourth.

They had to come in here, spend a year here and I suppose it cost thousands and thousands of dollars for this thing. A few years ago, when I was in the beer business as sales ,m~nager, the taverns were having some trouble. The suggestion was ,-put forward by me,among others ,that we should have on the Tavern.'s 4988

· Hay 28, 1971, Tape 786, ~age 11 - apb Morning, - Association as such,a licensed pre.mises group that get together to discuss various problems,that they meet and they have their problems which have been~cc~ntuate~~ must say,by the recent regulations, where the taverns can remain open until one o•clock in the morning. That is a beaut, that is! That is a beaut! God knows they had trouble eleven o'clock in the night,pourinF them out of the taverns, not all of them, but a great number of a certain group that frequent taverns.

Now! they are allowed to stay open until one o'clock in the morning, serve beer until one o 1 clock in the morning or liquor. The tavern does not have to close until two. In my area, where I live on Lfilfarchant Road, in the centre of St. John's, there are seven or eight or nine outlets and they are in residental areas. lmaRine how that tavern owner gets on 1 trying to get a fellow out at one 0 1clock in the morning. Of course he is abusive and everythini else, waking everybody up in the neighbourhood. I will tell you, ,it certainly is going to endear beer or liquor to the residents of the~e areas.

I think it is just a part of the stupid, absolutely stupid, this Government's attitude is on the sale of beer. ~r. Chairman, I can only say that I look forward to the day, and I hope it is not too far away, when the people of this Province,in their wisdom, decide that we have had enough. Twenty-two years has been twenty-two years too long for the stupid administration we have had for that twenty-two years. Liquor is one of them, and my - the concerned people in this Province,and what is in the offing is going to make it far more Worrisome to an awful lot of people, particularly mothers and fathers.

I say this with the greatest of sincerity. I asked a question this morning,Sir, and I was asked to put it on the Order Paper. True or false 1I do not know. about the

May 28, 1971, Tape 786, Page 12 - apb Morning. disturbance at the National Park last weekend. The story went, as I say, I do not know if it is true or not. I was trying to confirm it with the Minister of Justice. He did not enlighten me. "Put it on the Order Paper. 11 The usual answer you get on something of importance. Nine persons, I do not know if they were young men or young women, arrested or surmnoned '.for being drunk or consuming alcohol,under the legal age. ~any people Mr. Chairman, will think I am somewhat of a prude when I refer to these things.

Perhaps the blame is not on these young people for consumin~ this alcohol at the age of eighteen or nineteen. Will some one ever find out, will they take the effort to find out who is supplyin~ these youn~ people with the liquor., We are very much worried about dope today, and we have great reason to be concerned. I think I am correct when I quote the _ hon. Minister of Public Health, in an address I think last nip:ht or the night before, who said~ ''our greatest problem is alcohol.'' MR. ROBERTS· MR. MURPHY: I said our greatest drug problem. The drug problem I am referring to.

Sorry J uOur - greatest drug problem is alcohol." When a minister of the Crown says this kind of thing 1}{r. Chairman, I wonder does he feel in his heart and soul that this Government is doing enough to allay some of the -worries it has about this? Are efforts being taken ••• :MR. ROBERTS: Yes, maybe not enough, but I really do no~ know what to do because you cannot stop people drinking alcohol. Next to the drug problem, and quite serious.are cigarettes. Smoking cigarettes will take five to ten years off your life - We are doing more all the time, God knows. I do not know how much more can be or ~hould be done.

As long as people drink alcohol •.• = }1R • MURPHY: Ah i 4990

Tape 787. Page 1. Morning Session. quite satisfied Mr. Chairman, that we are policing our liquor outlets1 brought the w~tter up time and time again but our inspection department always tells me that there are numerous cloak and dagger boys in civies ,that cannot be - but quite frankly - I have been out occasions to different places where liquor is sold, I have seen young are only seventeen or eighteen years old,there. It may right, perhaps I am old fashioned. Perhaps we should let them drink age of ten. I may be wrong, I may be completely out of step with the But in my experience, Mr.

Chairman, I can only speak for my experience, dealing with youth over forty years, I do not think it is _od for them to drink at too early an age, quite frankly. As I said earlier the day, the handling of ~iquor is perhaps one of the most worrisome ,oblems that any government can have. There are people that are all for it. that are dead set against it, do not want it at all. We do come back here, certainly Heavens, where they are mixing up it, hair tonic, and what have you. ~omewhere. I think there is I have just been in touch with my office.

We have no letter about in the park. ===:c.:.._No report. ted to find out - It was a report that was just exa.ggerated 1 but I just We have nothing at all. Nothing at all, I am very pleased to hear it. '.'>l'r. Chairman, planned to speak any further on this. But when I hear the Premier in get up - while they are going to save $2.5 million dollars; this Govern­ <_t saving any money on anything 1 to me it is unbelievable. I do not think how to handle money, quite fzankly. I do not think they know how money, and to cone· out with this tremendous brainstorm, that we uld nationalize the distribution of beer.

We have,as I said earlier., 700 or 750 people earning a decent living directly or indirectly. It does not make sense. It is certainly not going to make the price of to the conSumer any cheaper because our taxes are away the highest 4991

Tape 787. Page 2. Morning Session. f any in Canada. They are double some of the provinces. It is the -oVerrnnent's problem. Here in Newfoundland~for example, on every dozen commission and social security tax 1it is nearly thirteen thirteen cents just for taxes and commissions, $1.51 a dozenJ Then we talk about the breweries, they had to create great plants; that is $2.49. for two dozen.

So; if this is the thinking, Sir, and it has been, I know. with this thing you know, Were the Premier can go a\Jay. great industrialist 1 whether it is Tel Aviv or Florida or somewhere It has to be the greatest thing-in the world 1 the greatest thing ever happened to this Province. Now we play down the fact that we t supply these people with capital of a hundred or a hundred fifty illion dollars for this.

I doubt if this government has yet to put one any of these breweries,to maintain their operation,to provide or 750 jobs.which I will say will be four or five times as much we will get out of Come by Ch.Bnce or ERCO. (inaudible) The price of the beer. The breweries get a nickel a bottle more for each bottle they Out of that they have to pay a distribution factor,which is a cent to and a-half. They have to pay their taxes and everything else. =====-So does Nova Scotia. you know, tt is just across the Gulf.

But the cost production here, I think the hon. minister must me, if you could sell to 750,000 people - No argument. Also the cost of capital is higher,because I ~ink you will find the capital structure of these breweries is hideously how they manage to make five or six (quote) millionaires. know the man who owned the breweries or who built them or owned the area and sold them, that all has to be serviced. 4992

28, 1971. Tape 787 Page 3. Morning Session. That is right, How long did it take to create these? I do not know1 people became millionaires overnight. I suppose, I suppose they were entitled to a fair return. They been better off perhaps if they had the agency - I ~ould like to know if those breweries,you know, to see an valuation as to what they were worth. Why do we have to pay a bottle more here, Jb not tell me our labour is insufficient 1it is notj bret,1ery here gets five and a-half cents a bottle more, now - cartons l More than where? Than Nova Scotia.

They do have to pjck up some distribution - Five and a.half cents, that is sixty-six cents a dozen more. Yes, it is sixty-three and a-half cents a dozen more. That is is what the brewery gets. They do have to pick up some dis- I presume there arefreig:ht charges coming in,is there,on bottles A cent to a cent and a-half. I wonder would the breweries agreE l~t us pick up the distribution, you know, comparable to Nova Scotia, Fair like is like. Then we will pay them the same as Nova Scotia plus they can prov~ if they have to ray to move bottles in. You know, _u~can figure that out.

And pay the salaries of the misplaced employees,the displaced r..fuat displaced employees? The three or four htmdred men o~ women that are going to be out ====-'-Weare talking about the breweries nothing about anybody else. them the same aS Nova Scotia gets for their beer, $1.96 a dozen. Jou take over the whole operation - We will pay them a distribution allowance. My point is they are than Nova Scotia and there seems to be no reason for it. 4993

.ROBERTS: Tape 787 Page 4. Morning Session. I have no authority to speak on behalf of the breweries, to deal at the present time,.If they put it on the Order Paper I it a little later on. That is a private members resolution - Mr. Chairman, as I say, I have been much longer than I planned I said earlier.when I hear the Premier getting up and trying to ,, nsinuate about the - you know he never acknowledges what is good, he talks I bet you that athletic associations and recreation generally would non-existent e~cept for the cooperation of the breweries.

I am I bet you there area great many athletic organizations - I do mot argue that. But supposing that the state subsidized them directly, the athletic organizations- let us assume, I quite readily they have a value a vecy real value. But \.my should they have to a brewery, why do not - you know perhaps the government is not put tin~ moneyl' We will take a million dollars away from the brewetj.es, whid they may give a~quarter of a million to the athletic associations, we will givE e quarter or a-half million or three quarters of a million to the athletic .MURPHY: • ROBERTS: Becanse, as I said earlier, Mr.

Chairman, I do not think this could administer That is a matter of opinion • It is a matter of opinion. I think the opinion is shared by - me finish,then the hon. minister can have his say. I am just about the thing now.

It is a pity we have not got a - what happened -John Doyle in the beer?- Would this commission be the answer to it allf eU we get the Bison Company in ~e would take over the whole works because comes very-_ well endowed with the necessary and - I just want to finish up Ch&irman,and say that it is just a little bit too much when you have to there,year.after year.and hear this great report of this Price Waterhous~ th- the Premier saying we may do it and we may not do it. Now, look, I am ,t saying we are going to do it, I am not saying we are not going to do it. 4994

Tape 787. Page 5. Morning Session. is still there. Whatever it is, there is something, how often the minister of Finance or his commission meets with I do not know how often they meet with tavern owners,perhaps it is __ -ot individually, perhaps as a group, to discuss mutual problems because there st be,if this liquor business is to be handled the way it should be to atisfy every segment of the population, I think there has to be an ongoing iscussion, 1"1e government in the first instance are the ones that are irectly ~esponsible.

You have your Newfoundland Liquor Commission to dm~nister the department on behalf of the Government. You have your _I'eweries,who brew the productJ then you have your license outlets,who handle ton the retail level or your agents - So Mr. Chairman, as I sa,:td a few ments ago,there is one thing I look forward to in a change 6£ Governmept. complete rationalization of the liquor laws and the liquor transactions in .CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, we will hear the Hon. the Premier on radio again Ilday talking about obstruction in the House, After he spoke for an hour -is morning;that is not obstruction.

The Premier spoke an hour this morning, e dispensable tale of th~overrunent taking over the distribution of beer. heard it all last year. The matter ~as debated just a year ago. The Vernment had the Price Waterhouse report a year ago. The Premier spoke the House a year ago, giving the same fanciful figures and the rest of it, ago. A ~ea~ has passed; the Government has not acted. ~he Premier says have not made a decision on whether they take over the' distribution of or not. ''Perhaps it is the best thing for the Government to do.

Other ovinces do. there would not be anything extraordinary about. it. 11 The Govern- nt has had a year now to consider the Price Waterhouse report. So why does pop it up this morning and go on this spiel about the great the breweries are making; that the Government could make $2.3 i11on a year extra if the Government nationalized the distribution of beer. Just a diversionary tactic. The Premier spoke for an hour on this of beer; has not spoken thirty seconds, fifteen seconds, ten 4995

Tape 787 Page b1 - Morning Session, econds or one second on who owas the liquor stores at PlacentiaJ Grand Bank, t. Lawrence, Marys town, that are hidden behind the Royal Trust Company and Not one second on that, not five seconds, not ten, not hut an hour on something that was discussed last year, bout the Price Waterhouse report on, the distribution of beer and how the could make $2,3 million and the rest of it. It is unimportant who owns these other bonanzas.

It is a pure I say this; if the Government can make $2.3 million distribution of beer by nationalizing_it,they should do it, lf it will not result in the loss of too many jobs to the distributing beer now, g~ ahead and do it.They cannot make they do nationalize the distribution of beer,nothing But,if they think they can,go ahead and do it.

Why has n~t the done it1 The reason is not any pressure campaign put on by any reason is that so ma.ny of the distributors and brewers agents and of it are people ~ho have been found to be politically sound, loyal They are not going to be disturbed and disrupted 1 this election interfered with and put out of work. The Premier challenges the se, Oh! will he reveal the names of distributors, this that and the other! hon. Leader of the Opposition challenged him to do it. Why not? do that, certainly. I say If the Government feels it is right to do it, do it.

But at the table the names of the owners of the seven liquor stores in New­ that are hidden behind the Royal Trust Company, Table the names the ownersof Harystown, Grand Bank, St. Lawrence, Placentia, Baie Verte The owner of the Clarenville store, the seven stores that are hidden ind the Royal Trust Company. Let us have a clean breast of everything, who tributes beer, who are agents for beer, who makes ~hat on beer, who makes on liquor leases, who owns liquor stores. That is what we are asking That is just what we are asking for. The Premier says an intensive campaign was put on, an intensive 4996

Tape 787. Page 7. Morning Session. mpaign; here are these three breweries, these sinister forces, these an intensive campaign so that even the domitable Premier J. R. Smallwood has to quail before this intensive -am.paign and hesitate to take over the distribution of beer. What poppycock? _e three breweries and everybody associated with the liquor and beer business - this Province are completely at the mercy of the Govenunent and the self­ Premier.

Are they going to put on an intensive campaign.that will make Premier tremble. in his boots to go ahead with this great public service taking over the distribution of the beert What nonsense! They can be out in the signature of a pen. The Premier can go down to s office this afternoon and wipe them out. Take away their license;that He can take away every distributor's license. He can ke away every brewer's agent's license. There is not one word in the Alcoholic Act prevents them. There is not an Appeal Eoard. There is no one to an appeal to, them out. 'They will have no rights. They cannot go to court.

Now where is this intensive pressure coming from? Intensive pressu1 What balderdash! Where did the intensive pressure come from, to Liquor Commission to enter into those leases? Those leases are some mysterious owner tremendous profits,Who does not employ one in this Province, not one person• who has buildings and sits back collects the rent and does not pay for repairs, does not pay for heat, not pay for light, does not pay municipal taxes, just collects the rent. Now I tell you thistHr.

Chairman, one member of this House is not ied about the Premier revealing distributors,brewer~ agents or anything , but at the same time this member wants to Bee revealed the names of actual true persons ~ho owii the liquor control stores around this Province, _ing behind the Royal Trust Company. I have told this House before, I told last year, I will say it again, so we will be quite clear on the matter, I of a brewery. A director of one, dD not own any shares, I have -_o\.rnership but I am a director. I said that last year, I say it now. So if 4997

Tape 787 Page 8, Morning Session. Premier is trying to insinuate that I might be afraid if anything was li~hed, go ahead and publish it, but let us have the whole story on --Crything, on these liquor control stores in particular. I know distributtrs Mr.

Chairman, a distributor certainly, who right to distribute beer because he had the audacity to support me I know agents around this Province th~t were terrified out of because they dared to express support for me and were frightened -;~ of their wits and stopped from supporting me, had to withdraw from the ole situation, terrorized because they got the message that they were going i~st their license. A man got a call, was told, Confederation Building was he a supporter of John CrosbieP They had thirty to get back the answer.

The person from the brewery that called thirty minutes to report back to Confederation Building,whether supporter of mine. The poor devil 1to protect his livelihood i h d " h '' d f h h l H 1 ncome, a to say~no, e was not,an stay out o t e woe matte~ e ost ~tcense anyway, six or nine months after the convention was over. cracy in action! I am making these statements now. -further. I do not deny the hon. gentleman,! can hear him making - The hon. gentleman is relying on - I will give you his name •if you like.

If the hon. gentleman would 1 and he is relying 'on heresay, me the name,! will see that it is looked into and so will so will the minister, so will the chairman. I will give the hon. minister his name. Not the name of the person in the brewery who,according to the ~- gentleman, contacted him , I am having no one discharged from any brewery nor embarrassec1'~ Not to see anybody discharged from a brewery,but it is awfully 4998

Tape 787 Page S. Morning Session. "'-'===::.:.._You can speak when 1 am finished speaking. All I want. you know, is the hon. gentleman not to adopt the tactics he is on. Put the facts - Look, do not talk to me about McCarthyism, - I do not have to>you ½now all about - Do not talk about McCarthyism Wen hon. members on that aide are trying to insinuate everything under the sun about landlords I am not trying to insinuate - now put up or shut up - I am stating a fact, I am making no insinuation. ====c..:..-Then put some evidence up.

I will put evidence up when the Government puts up evidence who -s those liquor stores. Put some evidence 'l:!P - What about evidence, who owns the liquor stores! I have no idea, put up or shut up. Shut up or put up yourself • Who owns the liquor stores? • ROBERTS: I have not made any charges about liquor stores. No you have not.I guess you have not. 1 ROBERTS: No I have not. No, sure you have not. You have not given any answers on the - Mr. Speaker let us have no hypocrisy in this matter.

Every member of is_fiouse knows that the system of granting licenses in this Province is a rroristic system, knows it, W&were given a - by the way there is something the three breweries in Newfoundland. One is owned by Canadian one is owned by Labatts, one is owned by Molsons,you see. Now _ere is something wrong with that, the Premier implied. But 1 Bison Petrole1..BI11 in to establish a brewery or take over the one at Stephenville anything wrong with that? Is not that a foreigil company,Canadian Is not Bison Petroleum a foreign company?

But is there anything g with th.ati No, that. is wonderful, that is magnificent. John C. Doyle 4999

Tape 787 Page IO• Morning Seas ion •• going to do that.. Is that outfit coming here to make money or not? do they hope to crnne here just to lose money? Or do they hope to come 'ere just to employ Newfoundlanders? Or is it charity?

Or for what purpose! e- insinuation is there-is something wrong with these other three breweries. the people of Newfoundland, the residents of Newfoundland 1have established three breveries that were later bought out by Labatts, by Molsons, by adian Breweries,worked hard, had initiative, invested their money, local secondary indUStries,which became a success and employed My father was one of them. At a certain stage of their life 1 when s":wrong with that? many people. to consider and the rest of it,they sold out. What The three breweries are still here. Still employing John O.

Doyle is going to put a brewery in Stephenville for some ptrTpose. He is different than Canadian Breweries. He is fferent from John Labatt. He is different than Holsona. There is some- ing wrong with them. What is wrong with them is they have assets, they industry, they have money to invest. We do not have assist them, not one bit. But I tell you this,~r. Chairman, we are assist Bison Petroleum and we had to assist Atlantic Brewin2- e Government did. They had to let us collect $407,000 from the pockets the people of this Province, not turn it over to the Government.

That bit of assistance, and give them a building in Stephenville for a year. Heavens knows what other assistance was given them! There is something wrong you see, Mr. Chairman, with every industtj business that is in this Province that was not brought here by the Govern­ _:- t4 There is something wrong with the poor Newfoundland businesfiman if he es a few dollars. It has to be something new, brought from away, preferE Ught by Mr. Doyle or Mr.

Shaheeniand we have to dip into the public's cred: millions and millions to help it along, -rest. ~ut there is some thing wrong 'Wii Now the Premier's remarks this morning were a rehash of what he 5000 ,

Tape 787 Page 11. Morning Session .. ,:Said last year, complete rehash. In principle there is nothing wrong with 'the Government taking over the distribution of beer,Mr. Chairmant nothing _at Government monopoly and the Government distributes the beer! The overnment will not make any extra $2.3 million out of it, nothing like The public will get less service because the Government,if it takes the distribution of beer and wants to make extra money or save money, have to lay off certain surplus employees and will have to cut down the services.

You will have to go to certain Governtt1ent warehouses your beer and the rest of it, tt will not be the same service. op~ortunity,of course,for people to construct warehouses. and lease them to the Government. That will be an 5001

Tape 788 (morning) PK - 1 • CROSBIE: Well if the Government decide to do it, fine 1do it. Negotiation and say they are going to do it. As long as the breweries still manufacture beer and make money, and that beer is still going to sold in the Province, why should Qq object to it, if it can be done that The Pricewater Bouse shows it cannot. But this was all discussed last Nothing has been done since. The Premier has said this morning that going to be done this year. are up. The Minister of Finance says; eighteen percent in the of this year compared to'last year. Yes, compared to first three months last year.

Now I do not know the figures, but I would . the sales this year would not,in the first three months,would not compare months for several years ago. Perhaps, the Minister has the figure? We have the lowest per capita consumption of beer of any province, because the price is so high. One of the reasons the price that the Government's coDilission ie so high, $2.49 a case, the transportation and distribution cost. If the Government establish the fact, perhaps the breweries are making too much money, 9 not think so. I doubt it. Perhaps they are.

If so and the Government justify it, if so I fine, 6queeze them, give them the squeeze, take extra five cents the minister is talking about. Who is going to oppose right and correct and it turns out to be right and correct? it is all a red herring, a complete red herring, It is not going to year, if it is ever done.

For political reasons, iiot from pressure of these sinister breweries, because the Government made a political judgment that it does not want~to distrub the waters year• it does not want to distrMb the people who are distri?utors distributors, and brewers agents and the rest of it. figures given in this House, Mr. Chairman,n year or t\Jo ago, ,t how many licences there are. I can just look them up here. March 1, l there were 468 breweries agents with licences, 468. Since April i, 5002

Tape 788 (morning} PK - 2 , CROSBIE: 1970,that is in the last year,eighty-five new licences have So there are 468 breweries agents licenced b~ the Government. -their licence·can be taken, anyone of those 468 men can lose their If the word goes out from any powerful circle to the anyone of that 468 can lose hie licence, tomorrow,without any recourse at law, without any appeal to That is~468 at the mercy of the authorities, if they want to their business. are same reply to the question No.461, showed that there/110 distributors the breweries and approved by the Newfoundland Liquor Comnissi~n does the Newfoundland Liquor CODID.ission have to approve the beer distributors by the brewer!@s.operating in Newfoundland! answer is "yes. 11 So there are 110 distributors of beer who could lose !r business tomorrow at the whim of anyone in political power, 110.

Four sixty-eight bre,;.,ers agents, 110 distributors, that would be 578. the distributors are companies, some are individuals, and so on, th~re are 110 df them. Then the question was asked about club licences What are the total number of licences issued by the Commission effect with respect to the sale of beer or liquor in the so on? Answer 913 licences issued thus far in 1971.

There are \establishments licenced to sell beer or liquor within the Province. i].+ just give the list; bonded warehouse licences - four; club licences - hotel licences - 78; lounge licences - 183; military mess licences - 18; licances - !2; tavern licences - 6; brewery licences - 3: -aft licences - 2; airport establishment agent licences - 1; well a duplication here; brewers ·agent licences -468, so that 913 the brewers agents. But, if you take that 913 and add on 110 1023 firms or individual peraona licenced in one ,nr another, either to sell liquor or beer at the retail level or to 5003

Tape 788 (morning) PK - 3 distribute beer or to be brewerB agents. Everyone of that at the absolute mercy of the Governmen~as to whether they stay in or not. One wrong word get9 across to anyone who is in a position m:er, do their own thing politically, lose your licence tomorrow. You You lose the licence. You cannot appeal to any appeal board. do is get down on your knees, Mr. Chairman, and grovt!:1,, to the ent and ask them for it back. Now what kind of a system ie tha~ that is suppose to be a democracy. another interesting point that turns up in the answer to some increase in licence fees.

Restaurant licence fees where doubled It is now $300 to have a reataur4nt licence. It is $200 to licences, It is $500 to have a lounge licences, that was increased last year. Hotel licences $200. Tavern licence is $250. Bonded licence is $50. BrewerB agents licence $5. The Newfoundland -~ Commission last year collected,aa a result of licences or permit ,_$176 ,050 were collected just out of licence or permits fees alone. a question a8 to how many people had lost ~ licences last year or had licences suspended?

Here are the figure8 on From April lt 1970 to March 3lt 1971 there were twenty-five suspensions _-closurers of licenced establishments. In each case they were reinstated. e-are three establishments whose licences were suspended or cancelled There were also seven brever8 agent8 suspended ~einstated during the same period, and five whose licences were cancelled. establishments were canoelled and still in effect, five brewers Mr.

Chairman, it may very well be that each one of those cases is ified one hundred percent, That ;;ould be absolutely justified. operly running the establishment or breaching the regulations or 8elling who are miner. The only point I want to make in that connection whether everyone of those is justified or not the per~on no recourse to any independent authority. He had nowhere to 5004

Tape 788 (morning) PK - 4 CROSBIE: present evidence to an independent authority, he could go to h n ,, people who ad suspended his licence and say\ you are wrong, but he JlO independent board to appeal to. Be could not go to the courts, he absolutely at the mercy and discretion of the Liquor Ccn:mnission and That is not right. That is wrong. That is unjust. That question was asked about the revoking of permits, the lMt suspension. Well that is the same answer,three licenced brewerB agent's licences.

Two licences suspended for of licence fee, one for failure to comply with the Alcbholic and five brewer's agents becauBe of convictions in the courts, er the Alcoholic Liquors Act. Inaudible. Did I not say when I mentioned those that they were probably They all are. Right, they all are. So now I say thay are,all right. But oint ia this - my point is still quite relevant 1that none of those eight else whose licence is suspended or revoked has any recourse to authority to try to disprove what is alleged against them.

In the since April 1, 1970, the Board received 505 new applications in that year and the Board approved 132 applications and the approve the 364 applications, and it has nine still pending. last year applied for licences, 132 got them, 364 did not, and , are pending. Now my point there, Mr. 'chaiman, is this; that not one -ose 505 had any recourse. If they were turned down, if they did not go licence, they had no recourse.

They could not(to an Administrative They do not have to be given written rea~ons for the refusal. e~oundland Liquor Commission does not have to say a word to them, except e turned down." They do not have to get a le:;,tter outlining the reasons hey are turned down. So they do not have to be given a reason. They 5005

Tape 788 (morning) PK - 5 • CROSBIE: have nobody to appeal to. They cannot go to court. They go to an appeal board. It is absolutely at the discretion of the Commission and the Government. That system, Mr. Chairman, is wronp: ~ould be that all those 364 were tuETied down for legitimate reasons, t 3t least the board should be forced to give them the reason in writing turned down, your application for a lounge licence 1 because there many establishments in this area. The local clergyman has protested • . have a criminal record.

You are financially insolvent • 11 What ever reason is, tbey should be forced to give the reason. Then the man ul,d be permitted to go, if he disagrees with the rea!on, to appeal to independent board set up by the Government. The members should have advance evidence before that board, if he can disapprove what the Liquor Commission, the reasons they and the Liquor Commission would go to the board and say;'here is " r evidence and the board will decide whether their rejection on tqe plication should be approved or not approved. Thia is the system we should Why do we not have it?

It seems elementary, why do we not have it? the Government from instituting it? It has been twenty-tvo rs without instituting this or changing it. Why? Why not do it? There o~ly one reason that I can see why a Government would not do that, because e-_ Govermnent likes the arbitrary I absolute power it has now, and does not change it, for political reasons. Now these are the important issues, Mr. Chairman, in connection with the ,foundland Liquor Cocmnission. The question of licensing and losing licences and issuing licences without any appeals or important issue.

The other important issue is the one all familiar with;that is the ownership and reasons for the seven entered into with the Royal Trust and the Banker's trust flompany1 ~e are the two important issues, not this red herring about the Stributorship,that the Government might take ov~r distributorship, but it ll not talce it over this year, It could make $3. 2 million and all the rest 50116

Tape 788 (morning) PK - 6 • CROSBIE: of it, that is red herring. That is not a real iseue. It the Govermnent acted and took it over and it is not be something that you could debate. It is not something you can debate now when the Government have made no decision. It is red herring. There are the two serious issues we have had no &nswere Who the owners of those estahlishments are~ Why the the licensing system, Why it will not permit appeal board and the rest of it. These are the two serious ' Mr. Chairman, I am just going to have a few words to say these great,passionate speeches doncerning rand liquor.

I guess I am like the Premier, I do not suppose I have k ten bottles of beer in my life, I do not like, I like hard liquor, I might make that quite plain. am a businessman and I have been, I guess.since my father-in-law practically left me the busineaa,so I had to go into it. At that remember quite plain he was a distributor of Beer. ilbat was first the road went down to St. Barbe District. So I took over the business, ese I made a success of it because I made money, not entirely on beer, coco cola and everything else. Inaudible, $30,000, oh, yes, $30,000,absolutely.

I do not want to bee.st did all right out o~ it. I made a good business, of beer, I want to make that quite plain, We handled many other I was the distributor and had been I gueas 1until,maybe a year or o, we wrote the board and said that we just did not want to supply distribute beer;on my own initiative. I would like to quite plain here, I am not the distributor that was ever threatened terrorized or any part of it. I do not think anybody ever mentioned 5007

Tape 788 (morning) PK - 7 anything to me about the business I ~as carrying on, Iver, I am not taking sides or anything like that, but I would make this plain, else was mentioned and I would like to get that off my chest ~"Concerning agents. I have been a member, I guess, for five years and, member, I say this quite plainly, every member at some time or been asked to do somebody a favour.to ask how to get an agent, an agency for beer and that. We all have.

I tell them the truth. have to write the board. and, of cour9e, if the board says.Well will probably come back~ ''who is John Jones dom1 in Joe Batt 1 a Armr" • ; well, I know the man, he seems to be honest. If he wants a licence, give it to him, it is all right with me, I do not care,' people have been the same way. Now this is the way it \ and I will say this about the board, having dealt with them for many ~J and many hon. members,like they have all said here, I never, never 2.- minute's trouble.

I have never gotten, not one-tent1! probably of the s that ""8 probably needed, but they know better than I do, They tigate, they go down through the district and say: 11 look, there is There is no need of two here. He cannot make a living.~SOme 1like he says,may sell ten cases, another might sell twenty case~, ome may not make ten cents on it, but, this is the way it goes_1 distributor, we found that there was never any question about whether -- ~ tory or a liberal or who.

If he was a sound businessman, you to help him out. $30,000 that is a little high, I must say,in any Ss,of course, but you know to be a successful businessman, you had it. We worked hard. But there are other businesses we lost money like everybody, e thing is, Sir, I would like to make it quite plain that a lot of inge in the Pricewater House Reportm".e good. There is no doubt about read it over myself,per!oMlly, and there are good facts in it. The 5008

Tape 788 (morning) PK - 8 facts are that, if you manufacture beer and you send it to a warehouse and the people involved, the agents, the distributors, in and pick that up, that is your one cost there. There is money being e, I know that, and it is quite proper. Honestly, I thirk that the into this thing. I think it should be, but they will give the local distributors or the local agents chance to compete in this business. There is nothing wrong with But there is, and we all agree, like my hon. friend here says, a lot of money wasted. But again,they do a lot of good too 1 They do a lot of good in sports.

We know that. But they a lot of money. I will be the first to say it to. Their system of could be made better, Lut it could be made better You cannot distribute beer in St. Anthony for the same that is quite well known. There are a lot of I would like to say that actually it ia a businesa that cannot plainly you cannot make money on beer,running ap to The costs are too high, trucking. and everything else. good with something else, other linea,of chips, coke, chocolate bars, ~ome distributors around are doing. This is the only way any type of be run.

But as far as doing some of the things the Pricewater and I think it should be done, quite possibly it can be done over Most of the people involved in distributing and the agents and at would be taken care of-, they will be doing some part of the system. regards to the other thing, I would like to say,as far as the concerned, I know these men have sat through a lot of hard lang~ge and I w6uld like to say actually these men are very honourable found them quite pleasant to deal with.

I have no deslinga with them like to say that.I am sure I spe~k for all the House, it is subject, but I would like to say they are very honourable-men -has been a pleasure knowing them and dealing with them. 5009

Tape 788 (morning) PK - • DAWE: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to add a few words to some made to the activities, I would assume,of various members in ir provincial districts~ I can eay;in our district of Port de Grave have about twenty various outlets of liquor within the district. I knOtJ I can say of these twenty, I could honestly say more than three of these persons are actually supports of this party. than three - Out of? Out of twenty. One of these perBons, I am not quite certain he owns the liquor licPTtt'"" himself. He certainly manages the propert: &t Mackinsons. He was a former member of this House.

I am assumh'lFi, is a supporter of this partyJ George Mackinsons. Of the other club iicences; we have eight retail outlets. There are two I think six brewer's agents. I have been contacted from time time, as every other member has been contacted, I have been contacted by officials of the Board of Liquor Control asking me es to the reliability At no time did I ever ask this person his tical affilication. I did on one occasion distinctly go out of my to a distributorshir. a retail licence that SOIJ.leone t~is person or persons