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May 4, 1993

35th Parliament, 3rd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

CENTRALIA COLLEGE

CONSERVATION AUTHORITIES

VOLUNTEER AWARDS

TRANSPORTATION FOR THE DISABLED

LANDFILL

JOB CREATION

PHOTOCOPYING LICENCE

CHILDREN'S SERVICES

WORKERS' HERITAGE

ROYAL COMMISSION ON LEARNING / COMMISSION ROYALE D'ENQUÊTE SUR L'ÉDUCATION

MEMBERS' PRIVILEGES

NOTICE OF DISSATISFACTION

LABOUR RELATIONS

PUBLIC SAFETY

LABOUR RELATIONS

AFFORDABLE HOUSING

REPORT ON VICTIMS OF ABUSE

LOCATION OF AWARDS CEREMONY

AFFORDABLE HOUSING

CENTRALIA COLLEGE

ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATIONS

LABOUR LEGISLATION

MINISTRY OF ENVIRONMENT AND ENERGY FUNDING

PRIVATE MEMBERS' PUBLIC BUSINESS

ABORTION

GAMBLING

BICYCLING SAFETY

LAYOFFS

NATIVE HUNTING AND FISHING

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

BRUCE GENERATING STATION

HOME CARE

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

BRUCE GENERATING STATION

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

BRUCE GENERATING STATION

ABORTION

BRUCE GENERATING STATION

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

BRUCE GENERATING STATION

LAND-LEASE COMMUNITIES

BRUCE GENERATING STATION

INTERNATIONAL PLOWING MATCH

CITY OF LONDON ACT (VITAL SERVICES), 1993

MUNICIPAL STATUTE LAW

AMENDMENT ACT, 1993 / LOI DE 1993 MODIFIANT DES LOIS RELATIVES AUX MUNICIPALITÉS

The House met at 1330.

Prayers.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

CENTRALIA COLLEGE

Mr Murray J. Elston (Bruce): I was about to say I had the privilege of attending a meeting in Centralia last night, but it is no privilege when you arrive at a meeting that is designed to raise local interest in the plight of an institution of higher learning which has been shut down by a government which speaks in riddles when it comes to trying to figure out what its real plans are. They talk about training and retraining our young people to be competitive in the new environment, the new economies, and yet the story of Centralia College of Agricultural Technology arises on the spur of the moment.

The people at Centralia are concerned because over 170 students are now left without options for their continuing education. Although the second-year class-to-be will be able to finish up its studies at Centralia, others will be left without institutions. There will be no veterinary lab, because the NDP government has decided to close that facility. There will be no field research for things like white beans and rutabagas, commodities which are essential to the healthy economies of not only Huron county, where the college is located, but also for those in Bruce, for Elgin, for Middlesex, for Oxford, for Lambton and other centres in the ridings of this province.

I bring to the attention of the Premier the plight of those students, the plight of the agricultural community around Centralia, and ask that he reconsider his hasty decision.

CONSERVATION AUTHORITIES

Mr Bill Murdoch (Grey): Conservation authorities across the province are extremely concerned with the recent reduction in operating funds announced by this government. Coupled with the spending cuts to the conservation land tax rebate program, local authorities have been dealt a deadly blow. Many may no longer be able to pay taxes on their land, leaving wetlands, floodplains, parks and forests unprotected. In some instances, the property may have to be sold. This is indeed strange behaviour from a government which has always maintained that it is committed to our natural resources.

But apart from the severe damage these cuts will do to Ontario's environmentally sensitive land is the harm they will do to our municipalities, which are struggling now to make ends meet. Obviously, if conservation authorities are to survive and to function effectively, the shortfall caused by both cuts, which is estimated by my local people to be well over 30%, will have to be found elsewhere.

The authorities understand the need for reductions in spending, but why should they and their areas' beleaguered taxpayers have to kick in far more than other sectors in the province are being asked to do? This blatant and constant downloading on local councils cannot continue. Municipalities must set their budgets in advance, so there's little room for manoeuvring every time this government unleashes its surprise attacks.

The Treasurer has already indicated clearly that taxes will rise substantially in his next budget. He will ask the people of this province again to bail out his government. How far does he think they will be prepared to carry him when he has taken all they have to give?

VOLUNTEER AWARDS

Mr Mike Cooper (Kitchener-Wilmot): On April 26, I had the pleasure of hosting the volunteer service awards in my community and presented an outstanding achievement to Chloe Callender. Chloe has dedicated herself to helping integrate visible minorities into the Kitchener-Waterloo community. She was instrumental in implementing a race relations policy at the Roman Catholic separate school board and is active in working against racism. She is an inspiration and role model to many in the multicultural community.

On April 23, the recipients of the Waterloo region corporate volunteer awards were announced.

Allen-Bradley Canada Ltd has supported the community with in-house campaigns to raise money, has an employee-run charitable fund, donates furniture and equipment to charities and has made available its cafeteria, meeting room facilities and its ball field for people in the community.

B.D.O. Dunwoody Ward Mallette encourages team members to participate as volunteers with community organizations. Through this participation, B.D.O. Dunwoody is represented in approximately 20 charities and community organizations.

On May 2, I had the honour of presenting 18 Canada 125 medals. One of the recipients was Lois Cressman, who was recognized for her efforts in the community on behalf of seniors, the women's institute and the horticultural society.

Lois was a founding member of the Haysville Sunshine Club for seniors, is a member of the Haysville parks board, is actively involved in church groups, participates in prison ministry and is involved in sorting and packing clothing for relief.

To Lois Cressman, Chloe Callender, B.D.O. Dunwoody Ward Mallette and Allen-Bradley Canada Ltd and all the volunteers in our region, we thank you for your efforts, concern and involvement in your community.

TRANSPORTATION FOR THE DISABLED

Despite whatever good intentions the government might have, the disabled community views this inquiry as yet another delaying tactic, an excuse for not actually dealing with the problem. This community is tired; they have lobbied for over two decades for the establishment of fully accessible transportation.

The NDP, prior to its rise to power, also advocated on behalf of this community for a policy of fully accessible public transport, acknowledging that this is the only means through which persons with disabilities will have equal access to employment, education and recreational activities.

A pre-election promise of this government indicated that it would require all new intercity buses purchased in Ontario to be fully accessible within three years and that it would work to achieve this goal for interprovincial buses.

To date, this issue, so enthusiastically promised, does not seem to appear on the agenda of either the Minister of Transportation, who is over there yapping, nor the minister responsible for the disabled: another empty promise, but this time to a marginalized and a disadvantaged community.

LANDFILL

Mr David Tilson (Dufferin-Peel): Yesterday, it was my pleasure to visit the Macville Public School in Caledon to attend a wonderful assembly on the environment and the one issue that is consuming the children: dumps. The NDP government has short-listed sites that are within miles of the Macville Public School.

Some children have made impassioned pleas at oral presentations to the Interim Waste Authority. One student spoke of how he would not be able to ride his bike because of the number of trucks. He spoke of how the country drives to see the fall colours would stop, because the only colours you would see would be the yellow bulldozers and the green garbage bags.

Another student prepared a poster with seven reasons why they don't want a dump in Caledon. They include odour, traffic, leachate, disease, breathing problems, tourism attraction -- not -- and that friends will move away.

Pretty heavy stuff for our children to have to deal with when they should be enjoying their childhood.

One student spoke of how he would not be able to farm like his parents do, because no one would drink their milk or buy the bread made from their wheat.

Another student wrote a poem that sums up why the NDP is wrong and the process is wrong, and that what we are doing to our children is wrong:

A dump near our school

a huge garbage pool

It'll make us think

about the water we drink

And that's not very cool.

Might keep the seagulls away

And how many trucks

will decrease our luck

At a chance for carefree days?

JOB CREATION

Mr Mike Farnan (Cambridge): I rise today to praise the business development department of Cambridge. With the problems of shrinking job opportunities following the free trade agreement so ineptly manipulated by Canada's federal government, Cambridge might have resigned itself to less growth and fewer job opportunities. However, Cambridge has not accepted the sellout of our great province by the federal Conservatives; it has continued to push for more and better industrial development in our city.

I commend the city of Cambridge Community Profile, a booklet which gives the facts about the city and is distributed to manufacturers and others contemplating a move to the Waterloo region. This booklet notes Cambridge's position within Canada's technology triangle, its skilled workers, its already extensive industrial base, its parks, low crime rate, easy access to major highways, its schools and universities, its health care and its energy facilities. Information about Cambridge has reached potential developers around the world, in the United States, Europe, Japan and China.

What the booklet does not mention, but which is at least as important to potential settlers, is that the business development department of Cambridge is working overtime. In fact, it deserves an A for hustle: hustle to get new jobs into the area and maintain the city. The city of Cambridge has one of the best locations in Canada for new business to set up shop.

PHOTOCOPYING LICENCE

Mr Charles Beer (York North): A memorandum was sent from the Ministry of Education on April 20, 1993, to all school boards informing them that within 10 days their photocopying licence with Cancopy would expire and would not be renewed. School boards were also informed at that time that the cost of the licence would now be borne by school boards. This memorandum defies all sense or logic.

The general manager of Cancopy states in a letter to school boards that by not renewing the licence, the system will be more expensive than the old system because of the extra costs that will have to be incurred. This is yet another example of offloading expenses on to each school board, leaving them to look to the local property taxpayer to make up the difference.

Worst of all, after all of this confusion, we not only end up with a more expensive system, but the ministry has asked school boards to adjust to it in 10 short days. The lack of any clear planning that would help school boards deal with this matter is appalling.

Why were school boards not given more time to deal with such a serious matter? At a time when nearly $800 million is being removed from the education sector, why would the minister not provide school boards with more time and guidance to deal effectively with the copying issue?

Many school boards have been placed in a most difficult position. Classroom teaching materials are often copied. According to Cancopy, only 30 school boards have contacted them. This means that any teacher copying copyright materials today is in fact breaking the law. For school boards, the 10 days' notice was a totally insufficient amount of time to deal with the issues.

I ask the minister to reconsider the decision made on April 20. If he does not, we will all be paying more this year than we were last year. Some planning; some logic. Is anyone awake over there?

CHILDREN'S SERVICES

Mrs Elizabeth Witmer (Waterloo North): I recognize that the government has little choice but to significantly reduce its expenditures in order to maintain limits on the provincial deficit. However, within the priorities which are set to achieve expenditure reductions, the province's children should not be neglected.

In times of grave economic distress such as the present, the coping capacity of families is severely stretched, even more so for vulnerable families. These are the families most likely to be affected by unemployment, poverty and family breakdown.

If, as a community, we are not able to at least maintain the supports families need to fall back on, it is the children of these families who will suffer the most. We have long known that if we do not ensure good care of our children, we are limiting their chances of growing up as healthy, well-adjusted, competent adults.

As the service mandated to provide the most fundamental safety-net care to children in the Waterloo region, our family and children's services is very concerned that, to date, the government has not demonstrated that essential care to the province's children is high on its agenda.

As the government moves to set its 1993 budget, which I know must contain significant expenditure reductions, I ask you to show your support for your youngest constituents by insisting that the deficit not be fought at the expense of the children, particularly those children who require special protection and support through family and children's services.

WORKERS' HERITAGE

Mr Gary Wilson (Kingston and The Islands): I've been reminded in the past week about the importance of heritage. We don't think of worker industrial heritage as being fragile, but it is its everyday nature that makes it so vulnerable. Thus, a factory may not seem to have architectural merit; the minutes of meetings of a local union may seem to be too mundane to preserve; the skills and the stories of people in the workplace go unrecorded.

As I said, I've had recent reminders of the importance of worker heritage and I'm heartened by the fact that it is workers themselves who are commemorating their history.

On the Day of Mourning last week, the Kingston and District Labour Council, with the help of the Ontario Heritage Foundation, dedicated a historical plaque to the workers who were killed while building the Rideau Canal. Thanks to the research and work of the labour council, visitors and others enjoying this popular waterway will be reminded that "hazardous working conditions and diseases, such as malaria, exacted a heavy toll" of the workers "whose labour and lives gave us the Rideau Canal."

The other reminder was a feature

article in last Saturday's Globe and Mail on "The Last Days of Local 303." The story and photographs were by Gayle Hurmuses, a member of the CAW local at the Scarborough van plant. The workers at the plant are chronicling the history of their workplace and the final

chapter is a record of the last days at work there, as 2,800 men and women lose their jobs this month when the plant closes for ever.

What's striking about Ms Hurmuses's pictures of the workers is the way she has caught their humanity. They're real people. They're not automatons or parts of the assembly line. They're her friends and colleagues. It comes through in the pictures and the article, and that's why it's so important that workers tell their own stories.

I applaud the Minister of Culture, Tourism and Recreation for her financial support of these two projects and urge her to encourage more workers to get involved in conserving their heritage.

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY AND RESPONSES

ROYAL COMMISSION ON LEARNING / COMMISSION ROYALE D'ENQUÊTE SUR L'ÉDUCATION

Hon David S. Cooke (Minister of Education and Training): In the throne speech last month, this government announced a plan to set new directions in education, to ensure our young people are well prepared for the challenges of the future. Education is our largest single investment in that future and the foundation for our economic renewal and social progress. Ontarians want an education system that is more accountable to the public it serves. They want a system that teaches the skills and knowledge that we need to better understand ourselves, our communities and to meet the economic challenge head on.

I am pleased today to confirm the government's appointment of the Royal Commission on Learning. The royal commission will bring all partners in the education system together in a public process to make Ontario's education system work better for all its participants. The five-member commission will undertake a province-wide effort to assess and make recommendations about the goals, standards and programs to guide Ontario's elementary and secondary schools into the 21st century.

I am pleased to introduce to the members and to the people of Ontario the five commissioners, who are with us in the gallery today. The co-chairs of the commission are Monique Bégin, a former federal Minister of National Health and Welfare and dean of health sciences in the University of Ottawa; and Gerry Caplan, a public policy analyst and public affairs commentator.

Other commissioners are Monsignor Dennis Murphy, retiring director of the Institute for Catholic Education, from North Bay; Manisha Bharti, a grade 12 honours student from Cornwall and I believe the first student to ever be appointed to a royal commission; and Avis Glaze, a school superintendent from North York. Dr Roberta Bondar, Canada's first woman astronaut in space, will serve as a special adviser to the commission as well.

The challenge we have given these commissioners is to take the public's concerns and expectations and translate them into concrete plans for the future of our education system and programs. This is not an easy task, but it is crucial to improving confidence in the system, the improvement of our economy and the personal growth and wellbeing of every citizen of our province. That is why we are asking for the support of the general public and our partners. Participation in this process is critical to its progress and success.

The royal commission will fully involve students, parents, taxpayers, business, labour, educators and trainers, organizations, interest groups and individuals. The commission will also be mindful of the diversity of Ontario's population. Stakeholders and partners will be asked to participate through oral and written reports and presentations at public hearings.

The mandate of the commission was developed in consultation with a working group of education representatives. This mandate challenges Ontarians to examine a range of issues including:

Accountability: How can we ensure that our school system is accountable to the public? What are the education standards, who should set them and how do we evaluate the progress of students against those standards?

Governance: What are the most effective and efficient ways to organize the education system? What are the roles and responsibilities of parents, teachers, trustees and other education partners?

Program: What knowledge and skills do our young people need to participate successfully in a technological society? How should we develop, organize and deliver curriculum?

Vision: What is our shared vision for the education of Ontario's students? What values and principles should guide our education system?

The questions in the mandate are precise and reflect public concerns. They will lead to answers that we can put into action.

While the independent commission conducts its work, the government will move forward with a series of initiatives including testing for grade 9 students; the circulation of the working document, The Common Curriculum, Grades 1 to 9; the increased participation of parents in education; and further steps in French-language education.

Our goals are ambitious. The commission will confirm its work plan in the coming weeks and deliver its report of recommendations by the end of 1994.

As a government, we have the responsibility to make the system work for the people we serve. As members of our community, we have an obligation to listen and work with the people who will be most affected by our actions. The Royal Commission on Learning is an opportunity both to fulfil those duties and to bring systematic and major change to the education system.

Education and training are one of the 10 points in our government's plan to put Ontario back to work. We want education that emphasizes more than the basics, prepares students for a lifetime of learning and is accountable to parents, students and taxpayers.

I ask all members to support the work of the commission. I encourage all Ontarians to help us build lifelong learning by sharing their views on education with the commission.

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): Responses, the official opposition: the member for York North.

Mr Charles Beer (York North): Let me say first of all to the minister that in the time allotted to me and in the comments that I'm going to make about the initiative which the government has taken today, those comments that are made are in no way commenting upon the quality and the integrity of those persons who have been named to the royal commission. I say that because I believe there are some critical issues that need to be addressed, and we have some real concerns about the reasons for the government setting up this commission.

We hope desperately, along with the broader members of the public, that the government is serious in terms of some of the things that it has begun in the last few weeks and that it will take the reports of the commission which it has just created seriously.

Minister, it's awfully important to underline the level of scepticism and cynicism that is out in the province around the whole issue of education and where we are going. For that reason, I believe it is terribly important that we recognize what the issues are, that we identify them and that we bring concrete solutions to them.

In many ways, the success or failure of the commission that you have just named will depend in large part on the actions which you and your government take between now and when that report comes out, because if there is any intention that you are simply going to back off and not deal with some of the critical issues that are out there, then we are going to be in very big trouble. I acknowledge that you have said you are not going to do that, but I simply underline that it would be a grave mistake to leave the issues to the commission.

Of particular importance, and one of the areas that is of great concern to us, is the question of the funding of the system. It is clear that in the mandate of the commission, it will not be dealing with funding. In the background questions and answers which you released at your press conference, you note that education finance is being dealt with by the education finance reform project.

Minister, what I have to say to you is, how can the commission adequately talk about the purpose and direction of our school system, the program and curriculum development needed in our schools, the system of governance, the system of accountability that we want in our system and the organization of that school system without in effect being able to deal with some of the fundamental funding issues?

As you know, the Fair Tax Commission has brought in a report. There is a minority report attached to that. All of the main players in the education system are saying we have got to deal with this fundamental issue of funding. The cutbacks announced on April 23 only make that issue even more important.

I believe that we need from the minister standing here in this House, and with very short delay, a full statement on how the government is going to handle the funding of education, what specific steps are going to follow over the course of the next few weeks and months to get the system into balance, because without that, all of the work of the commission could well go for naught.

Alors, je sais que c'est dans le mandat de la Commission. Je souligne l'importance pour la communauté francophone.

While we have many reservations about the need for this commission in terms of solving all the issues we have, we recognize that the members who have been selected are going to approach their task in a serious way, and we will work with them in doing that. But I want to tell the minister and I want the minister to understand clearly that on the issues to do with governance, on the issues to do with funding, we will need some answers this spring, next fall, during next year, and we are going to need those long before the commission has finished its task.

Again, Minister, the success of the commission will depend in large part on what actions you take between now and when its report comes in.

The Speaker: Reponses, the third party: the member for Waterloo North.

Mrs Elizabeth Witmer (Waterloo North): I'm pleased to have this opportunity to respond to the statement in the Legislature regarding the Royal Commission on Learning, and I'd like to deal specifically with the concerns we have regarding this initiative.

First of all, we're very disappointed that once again, instead of taking action and dealing with the growing public dissatisfaction throughout the province, we have set up yet another education commission. Certainly, although you're going to take a look at the goals and the objectives and the programs, you are not dealing with the most critical issue of all, and that is the area of finance.

The past Minister of Education, Mr Silipo, promised to bring in a new funding model for 1993. Clearly, that's not going to happen. The Fair Tax Commission couldn't reach agreement on that. The question I pose to you is, when is the issue of finance going to be resolved and why is it not being considered in the context of looking at the goals, the standards and the programs of education? It is all part and parcel and it's very crucial to the future of education in this province.

I'd like to compliment you on the inclusion of a student within the committee. However, I have to tell you that I'm extremely disappointed that there is no parent representation. We've seen a growing concern among parents in this province; in fact, we had three parent groups in here last week: the Organization for Quality Education, Quality Education Network and Parents in Action.

These parents, unfortunately, because you refused to meet with them, had to hold a press conference to highlight their concerns about education, and I'm certainly disappointed that there wasn't a parent representative on the committee, because parents deserve to be involved.

Also, you talked about the cost of the commission only being $3 million, for the study. However, I guess the big concern is, what will the cost eventually be to the taxpayer in this province to implement the recommendations? That's certainly unknown at the present time.

Also, you've indicated that while the commission is studying long-term changes, the ministry is going to undertake selected short-term initiatives in areas of priority. I want to tell you that this is causing grave uncertainty and concern to parents, students and teachers in this province as you proceed with initiatives such as destreaming and the common curriculum, and also take a look at junior kindergarten and child care. All of those issues should have been resolved within the context of the Royal Commission on Learning, and not in a slipshod manner as is presently being done.

You've talked about the need for more accountability and we certainly agree. In fact the Ontario PC Party put out a document last fall, New Directions: A Blueprint for Learning in Ontario. In fact we've noticed that the good ideas that you've put forward today are based on our Blueprint for Learning in Ontario. We certainly have stressed the need for accountability to the public and the need for accountability in the area of standards and evaluation.

However, you have not given any assurance to the taxpayers in this province that there will be financial accountability. It is extremely important that we reassure taxpayers that they are getting value for their money. They must be assured that their money is being used well, and that issue is not addressed at all in the commission's mandate.

Also, you talked about the programs in our schools that we need to take a look at. What is the knowledge, what are the skills, what are the values that students need? How do we develop, organize and deliver the curriculum? If that's what you're taking a look at, why are you proceeding with the use of the common curriculum for grades 1 and 9? Why is that being now implemented in a vacuum of ignorance when at the same time you're going to take a look at what's going on in the schools? I really do question that.

I would suggest we don't need another expensive education study. We've had five since 1986. It's unfortunate, because there has been no commitment to follow through on any of the recommendations of the other task forces and now we have yet another committee that's not going to report until the end of 1994, just in time to serve as a springboard for the 1995 election. Again, we're going to see all of the recommendations put on the shelf. We're going to see the taxpayers' time and money wasted. I would hope that when you're taking a look at consultation with the public --

The Speaker: The member's time has expired.

MEMBERS' PRIVILEGES

Mr Dennis Drainville (Victoria-Haliburton): I rise on a point of personal privilege, if I might. Mr Speaker, as you know, last week I decided to cross the floor and sit as an independent member in this assembly. I have to say this has raised at least some questions and some problems which need to be dealt with by people in this House, by yourself as the Chair of the House.

I must say that I sent a letter last Thursday to the three House leaders and in that letter I indicated to the House leaders that I believe that my rights in this House are not accorded to me in certain important areas as a member of this House; that is, that I cannot ask a question in question period -- if I were to rise, I could not be recognized -- that I cannot make a member's statement and that I also cannot sit on a legislative committee.

Now, as you know, Mr Speaker, a year ago I introduced a resolution, which passed in this House, which indicated that independent members should be accorded these rights. I have also said on numerous occasions that this is the only jurisdiction in North America where these kinds of standing orders prohibit recognizing the rights of an independent member.

I would ask two things, Mr Speaker: Firstly, in your capacity as Speaker of the House, I would ask that you make some ruling as to my status, to clarify it so that all members realize exactly what rights I do have and what rights I don't have as a member of this House. But I would also say, if I could, Mr Speaker, I would challenge the honourable government House leader that I have sent him this letter. It would be in my way of thinking a great help to the House if the honourable government House leader would indicate the government's response to that letter as soon as possible.

I would hope that we can come to a day when these standing orders that we work under will reflect a more fair and equitable role for independent members.

Mr Ernie L. Eves (Parry Sound): On the same point of order, Mr Speaker: I would just say that I believe when the standing orders were reviewed the last time and amended, there were no independent members sitting in the Legislature and I don't think that --

Hon Bob Rae (Premier): Just in the caucuses.

Mr Eves: Well, there have always been independent members sitting in some caucuses, I say to the Premier, including ours, and I don't think anybody really anticipated the situation that we find ourselves in now.

For our part, we certainly would be willing to look at the standing orders. I feel quite strongly that any elected member of the Legislative Assembly should have the right to participate during question period and private members' statements, and obviously there has to be some mechanism whereby independent members also have the ability to participate in the committee process. They, after all, are elected members like anybody else and they certainly should have the same rights and privileges.

We, for our part, will be more than willing to sit down and talk to the other two House leaders about perhaps how not only the member for Victoria-Haliburton but other independent members can be accommodated in this place.

Mr Murray J. Elston (Bruce): Mr Speaker, on the point of order, while I think it is important that the three House leaders representing the established parties sit down and try and work out a reasonable solution to this issue, I would actually invite the meeting together of these House leaders with both the Clerk and yourself as more objective viewers of this place in looking at it from an other-than-party perspective.

While I think we would attempt to do the best to provide an evenhanded and a fair distribution of opportunity to ask questions and serve on committees, I think that cannot easily be seen when the three of us might be together looking to the interests of a fellow member of the House who was not a member of one of the caucuses.

The issue at hand is an interesting one because, as you see, there is a relatively large group of New Democrats representing the government, there is a significant number of Liberals in the opposition party and there is a smaller number of people representing the other party, whose name escapes me at the moment.

It is becoming quite clear that it is increasingly difficult for even the backbench members of most of the parties to have real access in question period, and while we would like to divide up even more the number of opportunities for people to participate, it will have to be seen to be equal opportunity for all of the backbench members as far as that is practically possible.

I understand that there is always going to be a difficulty in trying to make our questions short and precise, and even interventions on points of order precise, but we have been recently reaching only two of our backbench members' questions after the leaders' questions, and that really is not allowing very much access at all.

So in one way, when the member for Victoria-Haliburton, in his letter to me as House leader which I have now passed on to my colleagues, has suggested a guaranteed access every so many days to question period and to do other things, it is interesting because not all of our members are able to access every two weeks the question period, just by the very nature of the examination of the business put to the ministers.

Mr Speaker, this is not an easy exercise. It's one we willingly participate in, it's one we will certainly be looking for some guidance and direction not only from yourself and the Clerk but from my friend the government House leader and my friend the House leader for the third party, and we look forward perhaps at your call to come to a meeting to look at a way that we can fairly treat independent members.

Hon Brian A. Charlton (Government House Leader): Just very briefly -- I don't want to take a lot of time here in the House on this issue this afternoon -- let me say first of all, through you to the member for Victoria-Haliburton, that he's written to all three of the House leaders and hopefully whatever response we make at the end of the day will not be a response from the government House leader, it will be a response from our consultations with each other, you, Mr Speaker, the clerks and the members of our caucuses; in other words, a response that reflects the best interests of this House.

The House leader for the official opposition has suggested, for example, that in our considerations of the member's requests in his letter we will have to take into account the fairness of that over and against his circumstance and the circumstance of every other member in the House, and I hope we can do that in as non-partisan a way as we can. I'm certainly prepared to sit down with the other House leaders and with yourself, sir, and the Clerk and have some serious discussion about how we contemplate the participation of independent members outside of the three caucuses in this House.

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): May I say first to the member for Victoria-Haliburton that indeed, in his request of me, he answered his question. The standing orders are quite clear. They are indeed quite rigid with respect to any member who does not belong to a recognized party, so there is nothing in the standing orders which would assist either myself or himself in being able to participate in question period or indeed in other activities.

To the honourable House leader for the Conservative Party, the member for Parry Sound --

Mr Elston: Do you remember the name?

The Speaker: I remember the name -- and to the honourable member for Bruce and the government House leader, they perhaps will know, as I trust all members will know, that I've had a concern for some time with respect to the rights and privileges of independent members, and I appreciate very much the opportunity to meet with the House leaders and the Clerk to see if we can find a way to address the problem through a change in the standing orders.

In the meantime, or until that can be accomplished, members should know that always by unanimous agreement we can accomplish just about anything that is the will of the House.

I would say finally, in reply to the government House leader, that indeed it is my view that the best kind of accommodation for difficulties is when the House decides to make a change. Perhaps when the House decides to make changes, then all members will be happy with that and we can conduct our business the way it should be conducted.

NOTICE OF DISSATISFACTION

Mrs Margaret Marland (Mississauga South): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I understand that there is a requirement for unanimous consent if a request for the late show -- I think it's standing order 34 -- has to be waived. I made a request yesterday of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations, and she phoned me today at 12:30 and advised me that she was ill. I said I was perfectly happy to reschedule that when she is well, but she told me it required unanimous consent of the House, and I'm making that request on her behalf.

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): Do we have unanimous consent? Agreed.

ORAL QUESTIONS

LABOUR RELATIONS

Mrs Lyn McLeod (Leader of the Opposition): My first question is for the Premier. Premier, two weeks ago when the unions walked away from your social contract talks to draw up their own alternatives, you indicated that you would welcome their proposals. As you, I am sure, are aware, it is now being very widely reported that one of the major union alternatives to restraint will be proposals that you raise taxes even further. Surely you are not going to the table to negotiate more taxes. Premier, I ask you to give us your assurance that you are not prepared to entertain union proposals for major tax increases in addition to what you are already planning.

Hon Bob Rae (Premier): I can assure the honourable member that the tax decisions that are made by the Minister of Finance are, in accordance with tradition, made by him after his reflections and his discussions with his cabinet colleagues, as well as the very extensive budget and pre-budget consultations that have taken place. The issue of taxes is not at the table with respect to the social contract and is not subject to negotiation.

Mrs McLeod: We are assured by that reassurance, Premier, and we hope it reflects the fact that your Treasurer, as well as you, understands that you cannot deal with this deficit situation with more taxes when they will put more people out of business, more people out of work, and probably drive your deficit even higher.

Hon Mr Rae: That's not what you asked me and that's not what I said.

Mrs McLeod: I understand your answer and I'm just wanting to extrapolate from that answer that we can seek further reassurances about what we will see in the budget.

But, Premier, let me take you back to the social contract discussions and the negotiations which you expect to have resumed this week, which was indeed the focus of my first question. I would suggest to you that we can well understand why the negotiations are mired in some confusion, because it has been a problem for anybody to understand what in fact is on the table.

I believe, Premier, that you added to that confusion last week in Hamilton when you told Hamilton municipalities, and I believe I'm quoting accurately: "We are also going to be taking into account the circumstances faced by individual municipalities. If there are special cases to be made for any one municipality, absolutely, we'll be prepared to listen to that."

I ask, Premier: Can you explain to us how you intend to take into account the specific circumstances of individual municipalities, school boards, hospitals, colleges and universities, which are already struggling to cope with your broad-brush cuts?

Hon Mr Rae: First of all, since my honourable colleague made a point of extrapolating from one answer into a totally different answer, perhaps she'll permit me to de-extrapolate and to say what I've said in the House in response to questions from other members and from members in the press: It is certainly my understanding, on the basis of everything that the Treasurer and I have discussed, that there will be tax increases in the budget.

I don't want there to be any illusions about that. We've made that very clear. We're making it for the simple reason that we feel it has to be done in order to deal with the extent of the deficit problem in the province as well as part of broader strategies that we're putting into place.

What I said when I met with the mayor of Hamilton, my good friend Mayor Morrow -- as is my colleague from Mississauga. I would feel the same way. I would feel precisely the same way -- was to say that one should not read into, for example, the percentage cut in the transfer payment to the municipalities that each municipality would be affected in exactly the same way.

Obviously, it depends on the degree of dependence on transfer payments and it depends on the particular circumstances facing the municipality, and those are circumstances which obviously would be taken into account by the Minister of Municipal Affairs. That's his job. If there's a special case to be made, that's something which has to be taken into account.

Mrs McLeod: Premier, I agree with you in one respect, and that is your suggestion that in Hamilton-Wentworth they have shown leadership in dealing with the constant budget changes which your government has imposed on them. I would agree with you that that has also happened in Mississauga, where they have shown leadership at a municipal level, and I would suggest that that has also been true in other municipalities, just as it has been true in many school boards and for many hospitals.

That is why, Premier, I have a problem with the fact that you seem to be trying to have it both ways, because at the bargaining table your negotiators are talking about very broad-brush cuts, but when you hear the local concerns you say, "Don't worry, you'll be exempted." As we understand what you said in Hamilton, Premier, it was to tell municipal workers that they have sacrificed enough and should be exempt even from the social contract proposals on unpaid leave.

I simply ask you: How can you give your assurance to one municipality in the province that it will be exempt from the social contract before that contract is even negotiated? I ask further whether or not other municipalities and hospitals and universities and school boards that have indeed already made cuts will also be exempt. How are you going to identify who is going to be exempted and why?

Hon Mr Rae: Again the honourable member has extrapolated, and I'm glad she's introduced the word, because it now allows me to use it. She's extrapolated again. She's gone from my talking about a situation where, obviously, the circumstances and the steps that have been taken at a local municipality will be taken into account to my talking about there being blanket exemptions. I've never used any such expression. She's using that expression.

Everyone's going to have to pitch in, and I quite understand -- I'm not saying it's easy. I'm not saying that the circumstances facing the province make the lives of mayors or regional chairs or local councils or school boards any easier. They do not. I'm the first to admit that, and that's precisely why we've taken the unprecedented step of encouraging people to come to the table, to sit down and talk with us, tell us their problems, their responses to what it is the government is proposing and have a serious dialogue at the table.

I think that's where the confusion over time -- and it's going to take a bit of time and it's going to take a lot of work -- where that can be cleared up and where, if everyone comes to the same table, it will then be possible for us to make some good, constructive decisions in which as much fairness as possible can inform what will no doubt be a very difficult process. But I don't think I've ever used the words "blanket exemptions."

Mrs McLeod: I think the focus of concern for the people who come in to negotiate is what the process is for them to be able to persuade the Premier that they are deserving of the non-blanket exemption.

PUBLIC SAFETY

Mrs Lyn McLeod (Leader of the Opposition): My second question is on a different issue. I would have preferred, I say at the beginning, to have addressed this question to the Attorney General, but it is a question which I have already deferred once in her absence, and I do feel the importance of proceeding with the question today, so I will address it to the Premier.

Premier, I'm sure you are aware of the Attorney General's decision to go to court to overturn the court-ordered police protection for Denise Thournout of London. You also know that many women are afraid that the actions of your government in intervening in this case mean that women who are vulnerable will not be protected even if the courts have ordered it.

Premier, when some of these women who are concerned expressed their concerns by staging a protest last weekend in London, the Attorney General said: "I personally think the anger is misdirected. I think if the demonstration were taking place at the residence of the person who is harassing the individual, it would be much more appropriate."

Premier, I ask you, do you not agree that these women have legitimate concerns and that they have a right to express them in a way that they consider to be appropriate?

Hon Bob Rae (Premier): I would say to the honourable member, and I know that she's going to be frustrated by this answer, but I really feel that in the circumstances I should simply refer the issue to the Attorney General and indicate to the honourable member that she will be here tomorrow and Thursday and will be in a position to reply to the question.

Mrs McLeod: Premier, I'm going to pursue the question, although I respect the fact that it would have been preferable to be able to address the question directly to the Attorney General, because I do feel that on an issue that has the kinds of consequences which this issue has and which is certainly not one that we're springing on you by surprise, since it has been featured quite prominently in the media, it's fair for me to expect that you and the Attorney General would have had at least some discussions about the implications of her decision, and thereby your government's decision, to intervene in this particular case.

Premier, I also understand that your government, through the Attorney General, has made very clear the reasons for intervening in the matter. But what is not clear to any of us, Premier, is what concrete alternatives your government has had to offer to this woman or to others like her. There are many women like Denise Thournout across this province who live in fear, and yet the only message that your Attorney General, and therefore your government, has sent to them is that you're prepared to step in and take away the police protection that's been ordered by the courts.

You have clearly said that Denise Thournout can't expect to keep her OPP protection, but I ask what concrete, practical alternatives you have to offer to Denise Thournout and to others like her so that women do not feel betrayed by a justice system that is leaving them without protection.

Hon Mr Rae: Let me say to the honourable member that I don't take away for a moment her right to pose the question. I hope she will appreciate that this is a matter that, in terms of the particular instance and the particular case, is being handled in the courts. I'm very reluctant to comment on it in any way except to say that in general I think the government is very firmly committed to providing whatever assistance we can and whatever assistance can be provided to people who are affected by any kind of harassment.

But above and beyond that, I just don't think it's right or reasonable for me, as Premier, to comment on an individual case, and I would certainly refer the question. I know the honourable member will be here tomorrow and the Attorney General will be able to answer, perhaps by means of a previously asked question.

Mr Tim Murphy (St George-St David): Mr Premier, in deferring the question I would ask that you take into account that the member for London Centre is both the women's issues minister and the Attorney General and that women of this province are looking to her and to your government for leadership in this matter, and they expect your government to take decisive action. Yet what is proposed to be done is to take away that very court protection, and in fact, from copies of documents that I have, not only are you taking that protection away but you're asking the respondent, Miss Thournout, to pay the costs if you win in taking that protection away.

We can understand, Mr Premier, that perhaps you can't afford 24-hour OPP protection, and yet I would ask that you ask the Attorney General to see if there are other alternatives, if she's considered other alternatives, before she did this move. Mr Premier, I'm asking you to ask your Attorney General and your Solicitor General if they explored other alternatives before they proceeded in this fashion. If you are not so satisfied, I'd ask you to undertake that they have that discussion and consider and decide on better alternatives than what they're proposing.

Hon Mr Rae: I don't say this simply to observe a nicety, but to say that I welcome the participation of the member for St George-St David in the House in terms of his participation in questions. Let me say that I shall certainly refer his question, as well as the question from the Leader of the Opposition, to the Attorney General as well as to the Solicitor General.

I think, though, that if he looks at the broad record and the direction which has been taken by the Attorney General and by the Solicitor General, I can assure him that uppermost in our minds is working in cooperation with the federal government, the new federal law that's now being proposed and the steps we've taken as a government. We are very much aware of the need to provide protection and the need to provide some real sense of security to women who feel that their safety is in any way in danger or that their rights are in any way in danger as a result of actions being taken by others.

I know this is something which would be shared by all members and making sure that that assurance is provided as a general rule. But with respect to the particular case, I'm very reluctant to make a comment and I will certainly refer it to the Attorney General.

LABOUR RELATIONS

Mr Michael D. Harris (Nipissing): Mr Speaker, I'm assuming that the Liberal Party making no comment of Clyde Wells's re-election was because he got elected on an issue that they fundamentally disagree with.

But I think we should take the opportunity, the first one, to acknowledge Clyde Wells returning as Premier of Newfoundland, and congratulate him on his election. Perhaps, by way of that in a question to you, Premier, I would like you, in a very non-partisan way, to say that this victory is one that you, who are now Premier of Ontario, should take some comfort -- it should reinforce to you that the time for tough action is indeed now. The time to cut the cost and the size of the bureaucracy and government is indeed now.

Premier Wells campaigned for cutbacks, against the entrenched position of the union bosses, and he won. He won the support of voters, he won the support of taxpayers and he won the significant support of the union membership. I think we would all acknowledge that today.

He also knew, Premier, that the union leaders can negotiate from a vested interest --

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): Would the leader place a question, please.

Mr Harris: -- but you must not allow them to set the agenda. They can negotiate their agenda, but you can't allow them to set it.

I would ask you this then, Premier: Since setting the agenda is slipping away from you, are you prepared to embrace the Wells victory as a sign that you need to toughen up, that it is you who should be setting the agenda, that it is you who should be talking about what's on the table and you who sets the deadline? Would you acknowledge that, Premier?

Hon Bob Rae (Premier): Perhaps I could borrow from a debate in another jurisdiction and say that I know Clyde Wells, have known him for some time and have worked with him, and I will say, listening to the leader of the third party, "You're no Clyde Wells."

I would say to the leader of the third party that, as a general rule, whenever premiers are re-elected, certainly an incumbent always takes a little bit of comfort from that fact. But I would make the additional point, in all seriousness, to the honourable member, that I'm not going to comment on events in other provinces except to say that I would obviously congratulate all those who campaigned. I've spoken both to Premier Wells today and to the leader of the New Democratic Party, who won his seat and increased his popular vote in the province in a difficult circumstance.

Obviously, we face a difficult challenge in the country. I listened to Premier Wells last night and also this morning on television and on radio, and I heard him saying very clearly that he wanted to sit down and negotiate with his employees, that he wasn't seeking a confrontation, and I heard very clearly from the unions saying that they also wanted to negotiate and weren't seeking a confrontation. In our own province, I think we're finding more and more that although there are differences of opinion -- they're being expressed very strongly -- people are willing to come and sit and talk and discuss and dialogue.

The Speaker: Would the Premier conclude his response, please.

Hon Mr Rae: It's in that spirit, and not in a spirit of confrontation, that this government thinks we're going to make the most progress, and that's the spirit with which we enter these discussions here in Ontario.

Mr Harris: The Premier will know that he and I are in favour of negotiations. Mr Wells and I felt that there should be a level playing field, and he sought a mandate: He sought a mandate, he set the agenda, he began negotiating from at least a level playing field.

Premier, I appreciate that today, in response to the leader of the Liberal Party -- who somehow or other was disappointed that the Liberals won; I guess only because of the agenda that they fought, they disagree with -- you said the unions may put tax hikes on the table, but that is not negotiable, you will not allow that to be part of the negotiations. I heard you say that and I just wanted to acknowledge that and appreciate that and support you in toughening up a little bit in saying that you will set the agenda. If that is indeed what you are saying, let me acknowledge that part of it.

However, the unions do plan, Premier, to put on the table today pay freezes for job security or position security, which, in many people's views, could significantly damage the ability of the government today, tomorrow, next year and the next year to properly downsize the size of government, as you have said must take place.

Premier, I would ask you this: As part of the negotiations, as part of the discussions --

The Speaker: Would the leader place a question.

Mr Harris: -- are you also prepared to take a tough line, as you have on taxes, and saying it is your job, it is the legislator's job, the Premier's job, to set the size of the civil service, but negotiating how you reach that size, what the pay

schedule is, that's up for negotiation? Are you prepared to tell us that, too?

Hon Mr Rae: I have a feeling that somehow, somebody took away his second question so he had to put another one in there; just listening to it. All I would say to him is that, broadly based across the broader public service, the issue of employment security naturally will be brought forward by the employees, as it has already been raised by the government in terms of its broad approach in the social contract proposal. I think if you look at the social contract proposal, you'll see a very strong willingness on the part of the government to do that.

Look, we have a responsibility to manage; any government does. In the 1990s, in an age of progressive management, it seems to me we also have an obligation to provide as much security as possible in an economic climate in which, of course, there's a great deal of concern. My own view is that that's going to be better for confidence, it's going to do more for the economy, if we have a greater sense of trust and a greater sense of security in terms of what we're facing. But of course we retain the right to manage. That's quite fundamental to any government.

Mr Harris: It's going to be an interesting set of negotiations. The unions say they want to negotiate tax hikes for everybody else, and the management of the size and what the civil service would do; they're not going to have much left to talk about. But we'll see what unfolds this afternoon. All I'm holding you accountable for, Premier, is to stay that course, because there are a lot of people concerned that you will not.

I suggest to you that if Clyde Wells were here today, he would differ with you. When the union bosses gave him a tough time, he called an election to get a mandate to be able to negotiate from a position of strength.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order.

Mr Harris: That's right. He told the union bosses that it was time for turnaround management, "management" being the key word, and that he was going to manage.

Now, I don't think you're going to call an election, Premier, so we're looking for other signs. I would ask you, as I asked you last Thursday: You said you had a line beyond which you would not be pushed, that there was a deadline for these negotiations to conclude. Will you today tell us what that deadline is, will you lay it out for us, for the public, for taxpayers and for the unions, will you be fair to them in their negotiations, will you tell us what that line is, and will you give us the assurance that if that line is passed, that deadline --

The Speaker: Would the member complete his question, please.

Mr Harris: -- that you are prepared to legislate?

Hon Mr Rae: Let me say -- and I say this to my colleagues; we've had a good caucus meeting this morning -- that an election is not the first thing on my mind at the moment. I know that will come as a disappointment and a surprise to many members. But some two and a half years into the mandate, we have a mandate to govern and we'd be wise to govern, and we have a way to go before we sleep, let me say.

Let me just say to the honourable member that I think the answer I gave last week was very clear, that as we indicated in the social contract proposal, the Treasurer needed to have some indication from the bargaining table, from our chief negotiator, as to the kind of progress that was being made and as to his recommendations. That date is tomorrow, and I'm quite confident that tomorrow or Thursday, the Minister of Finance will have a report from the negotiator which will allow him to make a decision and report directly to the House, which is, I'm sure, exactly what the Minister of Finance will want to do.

Having said that, I think we also want to give time for the negotiations to work and time for people to come to terms with what can only be described as a change which requires their participation in order to work. But I can assure the honourable member, we will take the decisions that need to be taken.

AFFORDABLE HOUSING

Mrs Margaret Marland (Mississauga South): My question is to the Minister of Housing. Minister, yesterday, in your answers to my leader, Mike Harris, on government housing, you demonstrated your complete blind faith on this subject; in fact, so blind that we believe you have blinkers on, because times change, and today in this province we have the highest vacancy rate since 1972. We believe it's totally unjust to those people who require affordable housing today and the beleaguered taxpayers who must pay for it.

Yesterday you said, "When those market units are filled, it helps to pay off the cost of social housing faster." In fact, what you didn't tell us is that you're paying for video productions and all kinds of forms of advertising to fill those particular units. How naïve of you to think that people are going to choose to pay market rent in a government-subsidized building.

Madam Minister, what we would like to know is how you can honestly deny the needs of a quarter of a million people in this province who are on waiting lists for affordable housing while you spend more money for only half that number of people because you want to spend money on bricks and mortar rather than on people.

Hon Evelyn Gigantes (Minister of Housing): The member for Mississauga South continues not to understand what social housing is about. It's unfortunate, because it was her government which began the programs of non-profit housing in this province.

While times have changed, I think the member will have to recognize that one of the things that's changed is that a great number of people in Ontario now -- up to 600,000 cases in Ontario, which represent more people in the household than 600,000 -- are dependent on social assistance, and it is very helpful to people in that kind of situation not to be receiving a shelter subsidy in the form of a rental subsidy through social assistance but to have access to affordable housing which is paid for through the Ministry of Housing accounts.

But she can't have it both ways. You can't have people receiving social assistance for free. It's not free, member for Mississauga South. You can put them in affordable housing, which gets paid for over a 35-year mortgage, which retains its use of the public resource --

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): Would the minister conclude her response, please.

Hon Ms Gigantes: -- for people who have income problems.

I wish she would start to settle down and really look at this program and understand its benefits.

Mrs Marland: I guess the difficulty is that we have in this province a Ministry of Health that doesn't pay for two hearing aids, and I now understand why there's a need in this House as well as outside of this House.

I certainly wasn't talking about anything being free. I'm talking about the actual cost to the taxpayers of this program that does not look after -- the same number of dollars spent on four times as many people. It's very simple, actually.

Yesterday, in fact, the minister said to my leader that $2.5 billion was spent on shelter allowances. She said, "If that is not a rental subsidy in this province, how much more does he want to put into payments which are subsidies to landlords, which don't create new affordable housing?"

This is a selective argument. What I'd like to know is, how about the subsidies to land owners to whom the non-profit housing program pays three times the market cost of the land, then allows flips by these groups before they even come to market in terms of buildings?

I would like to remind the minister --

The Speaker: Would the member place her question, please.

Mrs Marland: The auditor has identified a lack of need and demand studies. The auditor identified that 25% of the projects do not even have approved operating budgets, the auditor talked about multiple waiting lists --

The Speaker: Would the member please place a question.

Mrs Marland: If this such a good thing, Madam Minister, why don't you open up your books and answer the questions that were asked in public accounts committee and answer the questions asked by the auditor himself, who is still waiting --

The Speaker: The question's been placed.

Mrs Marland: -- for the facts and figures on your oh-so-great housing program?

The Speaker: Will the member take her seat. Minister.

Hon Ms Gigantes: Mr Speaker, it's hard to know where to begin to answer this outpouring of vituperation and agitation, but I take all that she's saying very seriously because it's so highly inaccurate. It really dismays me that this inaccuracy goes on being spouted. It dismays me.

The Provincial Auditor reviewed the social housing program as it operated in this province between the years 1985 and 1991. He raised a number of questions, all of which we took very seriously at the Ministry of Housing in reviewing the social housing program which we are carrying forward under Jobs Ontario Homes.

We are making changes to those programs. The figures that were spouted yesterday by the leader of the Conservative Party are simply not the case. We will not be spending $1 billion by 1995. We have reconstructed our social housing program. The costs will be, on an annual basis, $70 million lower than that. I hope the member for Mississauga South will pick up her Hansard, read over the committee hearings which she participated in and note that every question raised was answered.

The Speaker: Final supplementary, brief supplementary.

Mrs Marland: Minister, if you had been in those committee hearings, you would know what questions your deputy agreed to answer at a future date. Those are the questions I'm referring to.

And when you talk about an outpouring of agitation, I want to tell you who is agitated in this province: It's the people your government is asking to pay higher taxes and give up their jobs.

You also said yesterday that my Conservative leader is going around the province talking about this program in pathetic terms. I want to tell you what's pathetic. The program is pathetic. You're asking people to make sacrifices in this province at the same time that you do not know what's going on in your ministry. You do not know that the auditor identified $200 million of misspent dollars, money that they can't find where your ministry has spent that money.

The Speaker: And your question?

Mrs Marland: I want to give you an example --

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order.

Mrs Marland: -- by the Board of Trade of Metropolitan Toronto. They are saying that the annual provincial subsidy has grown from only $33 million in 1987 --

The Speaker: Will the member please place a question.

Mrs Marland: Yes, Mr Speaker. This is the question: In light of the fact that this subsidy has grown from $33 million in 1987 to $605 million in 1992 --

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order.

Mrs Marland: -- why do you not provide the affordable housing that would house twice as many people for one seventh of the cost of your annual subsidy in the program as it exists today?

Hon Ms Gigantes: I would invite the member for Mississauga South to sit down.

Mr Chris Stockwell (Etobicoke West): Not another briefing.

Hon Ms Gigantes: Yes, for a briefing, absolutely. She still doesn't understand.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order.

Hon Ms Gigantes: I'd like to address two issues that she's sort of generally thrown out here this afternoon.

Mr Charles Harnick (Willowdale): Minister, where is the $200 million? Tell us about the $200 million you can't find.

The Speaker: Order, the member for Willowdale.

Hon Ms Gigantes: One is the question of this government spending money, raising taxes, throwing people out of work. I don't know what she's talking about, but let me point out for the benefit of the member that the social housing that will be under construction in the province of Ontario this year will create the equivalent of 30,000 full-time jobs. Is that worth nothing to the member for Mississauga South?

The questions that have been raised in the public accounts committee have been answered. If there is a specific question, aside from these generalized pieces of misinformation, that the member would like answered, I'd be glad to get it from her and be glad to get her any answer she's looking for.

REPORT ON VICTIMS OF ABUSE

Mrs Yvonne O'Neill (Ottawa-Rideau): My question is to the Premier. Yesterday, your government received a stay, pending an appeal, on the release of the 1976 report on the Grandview school for girls in Cambridge. Mr Premier, judges, a former Attorney General, the media, some of whom are plaintiffs in this case, and the community at large have stated consistently for almost a year that your actions surrounding the release of this I remind this House that this is a heavily edited document, with all the names and personal interviews deleted. Your continued request to suppress this report is described over and over again as extremely rare and highly unusual.

You know and I know that the release of this report, even in its edited version, would most likely help to prove that there was real abuse at Grandview. The NDP government has always claimed to be the champion of the rights of those wronged through their contact with provincial institutions.

Mr Premier, you have demonstrated your personal interest in this matter by requesting and receiving a confidential briefing on the case by the assistant Deputy Attorney General, criminal law, the same person who argued your government's case yesterday.

Will you and your Attorney General stop hiding behind the excuse of hindering an investigation? I ask you, will you give us the real reason why you are continuing to request the suppression of this report, which is of such high interest to you, to your government, to the members of this Legislature and indeed to the community of Ontario? Why are you personally and three of your ministries fighting so hard --

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): Would the member place her question, please.

Mrs O'Neill: -- to suppress this heavily edited report, contrary to the decisions of several judges and the freedom of information and protection of privacy commissioner?

Hon Bob Rae (Premier): First of all, I would say to the honourable member that her statement that this is some personal action being taken by any member of the government is frankly absurd and unworthy of the member. Secondly, I would refer her to page 16 of the standing orders, and I would refer others as well, to standing order 23(g), which states specifically:

"...a member shall be called to order by the Speaker if he or she:

"(

g) Refers to any matter that is the subject of a proceeding

"(

i) that is pending in a court or before a judge for judicial determination...."

Those are the standing orders of the House. They guide me in my actions and in my answers as clearly as they guide the honourable member. I can make no further comment on this matter, and she knows it perfectly well, as does every member of the House.

Mrs O'Neill: The Premier knows that he had a meeting on March 17, and that is the point of my question today. You met that day with the director of the provincial crown law office, Mr Murray Segal, and the assistant Attorney General for criminal law, Mr Michael Code.

Some crown attorneys in Ontario are concerned that their arm's-length relationship with this government has been compromised by this troubling and unprecedented briefing. Many believe your meeting with the director of the provincial crown law office, who will ultimately determine where and whether charges in this case will be laid, is more than the appearance of interference that your Attorney General continues to refer to.

Mr Premier, are you prepared today to share with this Legislature the contents of that briefing, or the reason why it was held on Grandview, that you received on the evening of March 17?

Hon Mr Rae: The basis of the question is without any substance or foundation whatsoever. There's nothing unprecedented in the discussion between the Attorney General and I with respect to briefings on matters concerning her ministry, nothing unprecedented or unusual in it at all with respect to it. I would refer the honourable member and, if I may say so, refer other members to what is, after all, I would have thought, a pretty clear standing order of the House with respect to comments that a member or that a Premier can or cannot make.

LOCATION OF AWARDS CEREMONY

Mr Norman W. Sterling (Carleton): My question is to the Minister of Citizenship. Madam Minister, I'd like to thank you, and also the Minister of Tourism and Recreation, for your invitation to the celebration of the presentation of the 1993 volunteer awards, a Festival of Stars, where they will recognize the stellar achievements of Ontario volunteers with special guests next Tuesday night.

I'm getting quite a few calls in my constituency office because my volunteers from my riding can't understand that at the bottom of this, it says these volunteer awards for Ontario residents are going to be given in Hull, Quebec.

Hon Elaine Ziemba (Minister of Citizenship): Thank you very much for the question. I want to say I'm very pleased that you received your invitation. We are often criticized that we don't extend those invitations. I hope also that you will participate, because we have tried, in all of our events -- that all the members participate in the event.

We are also very concerned about making sure that we save as many dollars as we can, that we can provide the best opportunity for our volunteers because they're extremely important, but we also have to make sure that we have facilities that will not cost us the dollars. I will look in to see about the costs effect of going to Hull, Quebec, for you.

Mr Sterling: Madam Minister, maybe you're not aware of it, but the Ottawa Congress Centre, which is owned by this province, is deficit-ridden at this point in time and would be very appropriate for this kind of ceremony. We have the National Arts Centre in the city of Ottawa, in the province of Ontario, which would be very appropriate for this kind of awards ceremony.

Madam Minister, I'm proud to be a Canadian, I'm proud to be an Ontarian, and the people who are receiving a province of Ontario award for voluntarism, quite frankly, would expect that this ceremony would take place in our province.

Hon Ms Ziemba: I'm very pleased to hear that the member is proud to be an Ontarian, proud to be Canadian, and I think we all share those values. I think it's extremely important that we state those. But I also would like to say, as I said to you in the last response, that I will look into this matter to see what the cost-effectiveness is of going to that particular facility and to make sure that we take your concerns into account next time.

Interjections.

Mr Chris Stockwell (Etobicoke West): What are you going to look into?

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): Order.

Hon Ms Ziemba: Perhaps next time you could give us the proper facility that you would like to have the events in, and I hope this time that you will participate, because other times you haven't.

Mr Stockwell: What are you going to survey, the provincial boundaries, hire some surveyors and move the boundaries?

The Speaker: Order, the member for Etobicoke West.

AFFORDABLE HOUSING

Mr Donald Abel (Wentworth North): My question is for the Minister of Housing. Madam Minister, when the recent federal government's pre-election budget came out, we didn't hear much about the negative impact that spending cuts will have on social housing. In this budget, the federal government cancelled five national programs which in the past have assisted tens of thousands of Canadians annually.

This move by the federal government has many people in my riding of Wentworth North, and I'm sure all across Canada, very, very upset. I think it is of the utmost importance that the people of Ontario are made aware what effects these Tory cuts are going to have on housing in the province of Ontario. Madam Minister, can you provide us with some information?

Hon Evelyn Gigantes (Minister of Housing): I'm glad to do that, Mr Speaker. There were five programs affected by the federal budget, and in fact five programs have been completely eliminated including the non-profit housing program, which has been a federal-provincial shared cost program; the federal rent supplement program, which really has been useful especially in small towns and rural areas --

[Applause]

Hon Ms Gigantes: Are you applauding now, Conservatives?

-- the rural native housing program, which is a rent-to-own program; the residential rehabilitation assistance program, RAP, which has helped people of low income repair their homes; and the urban native non-profit housing program.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): Order.

Hon Ms Gigantes: In addition to the complete elimination of these five programs, the federal Conservatives have capped the operating funding for the more than 40,000 units of social housing here in Ontario that they've cost-shared with the province of Ontario, including with Conservative governments in the past, over the last several years.

Mr Abel: Thank you, Madam Minister. I think it's also very important that the people of Ontario know what kind of pressures these cutbacks are going to place on housing programs in this province.

Hon Ms Gigantes: Mr Speaker, it appears quite clear that the Conservative members of this Legislature think it's very funny when Ontarians lose assistance from the federal government that helps meet the desperate needs of people seeking affordable housing in this province.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order.

Hon Ms Gigantes: I'd like to point out to them that it ain't funny. I'd like to point out to them that 2,000 units of social housing will be lost this coming year, 3,000 units of rehabilitated housing, and that amounts to 4,000 construction jobs in one year only, and that will be repeated year after year after year. That loss is going to be suffered in Ontario.

CENTRALIA COLLEGE

Mrs Joan M. Fawcett (Northumberland): I have here something for the Minister of Agriculture and Food, if he would like to take a look. I'd like to have a page come and deliver this to the minister so he could even get a closer look.

Last night, Minister, my colleague the member for Bruce and I travelled to Centralia College of Agricultural technology to listen to the concerns of the friends of Centralia. There were over 800 very concerned individuals from all walks of life there devastated by the closing of Centralia College by your ministry. They told us the vital role Centralia College plays in their lives and in the agrifood industry in our province.

I would ask the minister, have you talked to people like Dr Susan Fussell, the head of the animal research lab at the University of Western Ontario --

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): Order. The member for Chatham-Kent.

Mrs Fawcett: -- who stated she preferred to hire graduates from Centralia because of their experience with large and small animals? In fact, she stated there were at least four Centralia graduates working there now.

Has the minister talked to people like Donna Stewardson, the second vice-president of the Ontario Federation of Agriculture, who told us last night that the OFA considers the closing of Centralia as an outright attack on research, education and the establishment of future generations of farmers?

Has the minister talked to people like Brian Dudgeon, the president of the students' council at Centralia, who believed his future was in agriculture --

The Speaker: Would the member pose her question, please.

Mrs Fawcett: -- and who so passionately feels that his education at Centralia would equip him with the latest technology and skills to compete in the global economy?

Did you, Minister, consult with these people directly before you made the decision to close Centralia?

The Speaker: Would the member please place a question.

Mrs Fawcett: If not, how can you sit at the cabinet table and pretend to represent the agrifood industry when you haven't even consulted with the stakeholders?

Hon Elmer Buchanan (Minister of Agriculture and Food): I'm fully aware of the value of Centralia College to the Huron area and the staff there who do an excellent job. The research that's there is important to agriculture in this province and I'm aware of a couple of the research programs that are specifically located at Centralia and their importance to that region. But it's my job and the job of being part of the government to look at fiscal responsibilities. When we looked at the agricultural colleges, we have spaces for 2,000 students and we only have about 1,100 students in the agricultural college system.

Quite frankly, decisions had to be made. No one likes to close any college. If it had been Ridgetown, the people from Ridgetown would have had a meeting and they would have had a sign that said, "Save Ridgetown." It's very tough to close any institution, whether it's a school, a college or any other facility, but these are tough decisions that had to be made.

It's unfortunate for the people in the area, and I understand the economic impact. We'll do what we can to offset that. We are responsible and we will do what we can for the people in that region. But at the end of the day, we have to make decisions, we have to downsize the number of colleges we have in this province to show responsibility and reflect the capacity that we need to serve the agricultural community.

Mrs Fawcett: Is this the real Minister of Agriculture or an impostor? Never before, Minister, has the agrifood community shouldered such a disproportionate share of an Ontario government's attempts at fiscal responsibility.

How can you justify these cuts when your government is spending $2.8 million on seven ministers without portfolio who can't even answer questions in this House, or is spending over $1 million just to move cabinet offices across the street?

The minister has to realize that there is a future for agriculture in our province and that future depends on our ability to do research and development to provide our farmers with the best technology so that they can compete in the global economy.

The Speaker: And the member's question.

Mrs Fawcett: And that is true with all industry. The agrifood industry depends on our youth. A well-trained and educated youth is the key to the future, yet there can be no --

The Speaker: Does the member have a question?

Mrs Fawcett: -- future if you continue to close agricultural offices and colleges like Centralia and New Liskeard.

Will the minister today make a commitment to reconsider the closure of Centralia and New Liskeard, and will he sit down with all of the stakeholders and discuss all of the options and opportunities?

Hon Mr Buchanan: During the last administration, the Liberal administration, when revenues were increasing 10% and 15% per year, if the Liberal administration had put some money aside and left some money in the kitty, we could continue some of the programs that they valued so much. If our growth in revenues was the same as it was in the 1980s, we wouldn't be experiencing the kinds of closures we've had to take.

These are very tough decisions. At least we had the guts to make those decisions and we're going to stand by those decisions. There will be no reversal in the closure of the colleges that we've announced. There will be no backtracking on that.

In terms of Agriculture and Food taking an unreasonable cut, I have the list here in terms of percentage of cut. Agriculture was treated very fairly. Some ministries were as high as 18%, some below that. We're basically somewhere in the median range in terms of the restraints that we suffered, and we believe that Agriculture and Food has to participate and be a responsible ministry in this government and be responsible to the people of the province.

ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATIONS

Mr Leo Jordan (Lanark-Renfrew): My question is for the Minister of Natural Resources. The Ontario Forest Industries Association has stated that your government's ban on chlorine is not based on scientific evidence. Furthermore, it is the industry's contention that the large financial commitments necessary to meet your new regulations will not result in environmental gains.

Minister, how can you proceed with these regulations when the scientific evidence to support your position is inconclusive?

Hon Howard Hampton (Minister of Natural Resources): The regulations which are addressed here are more properly in the realm of the Minister of Environment. I think the question should go to the Minister of the Environment and Energy.

Hon Bud Wildman (Minister of Environment and Energy): I thank the member for his question. He will know that the MISA regulations were put forward after about six years of development and widespread consultation. We had a 60-day comment period and we'll be taking into account the comments made in the development of the final regulation.

The member should know that, while he questions the scientific evidence, the International Joint Commission has called for the elimination of organochlorines from our water supply in the Great Lakes, and I think that the International Joint Commission is a commission that is set up by both the governments of Canada and the United States to protect those waterways and we could hardly question their ability to make scientific judgements.

Mr Jordan: It is now estimated, Minister, that as many as 6,000 jobs could be lost if the zero AOX regulation is pursued. One operation has been widely quoted as stating your policy will leave them with no other option than to close the plant. The mayor of Thunder Bay has called this ban a threat to the survival of northwestern Ontario.

Minister, why does your government insist on jeopardizing these jobs without the scientific evidence to support the policy?

Hon Mr Wildman: I did refer to the question about science in the previous answer. I would just say that we all are concerned about the health of the pulp and paper industry in Ontario. All of us would recognize that the prices have been depressed for some time and that the difficulties being experienced by some of the kraft mills are related to the market, not to regulations.

I would also like to correct a misunderstanding that the member has in that he refers to the zero as a regulation, when in fact it is a goal. What is regulated is 0.8 by the year 1999, and he should know that two out of the eight kraft mills can already meet that regulation and that they will be required, along with the other six kraft mills, to file a plan on how they might meet the goal of zero by the year 2002 by the end of 1998. This is not really very onerous at all.

LABOUR LEGISLATION

Mr Gary Wilson (Kingston and The Islands): My question is for the Minister of Labour. Our government has taken steps to help working people in Ontario. With Bill 40, Ontario has one of the most progressive labour relations acts in North America. We've initiated a wage protection plan that ensures that working people receive earned wages and vacation, severance and termination pay when their employers don't pay.

The Ontario investment and employee ownership program encourages workers to buy into their own companies and provides a source of investment for individuals who want to invest in our economy here in Ontario. We've made progress with pay equity, and our down payment program announced this spring will pay up to $2,500 to thousands of lower-wage working women in the broader public sector.

With Bill 80, we have emphasized the basic democratic rights of construction workers by promoting greater freedom and control for local unions in their relationship with their international parent unions in the construction industry. Recently, however, some of my constituents have suggested that Bill 80 will require building trade unions members --

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): Will the member place a question, please.

Mr Gary Wilson: -- to join only Canadian-based unions. There appears to be a contradiction here, Minister, between the constructive things for working people our government has done and this apparently arbitrary provision. Could you clear up this contradiction?

Hon Bob Mackenzie (Minister of Labour): I'm very glad to hear the member for Kingston and The Islands raise the issue, for example, of Bill 40 and Bill 80, which relates to Bill 40. Some of the members across the floor of the House might take a little time to find out exactly what's happening with Bill 40, both from the workers' and the companies' side, and might find out that it's nowhere near the bugbear they thought it was when the legislation was brought into the House. It has had the effect of speeding up the processes.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. Minister.

Hon Mr Mackenzie: As I was saying, Mr Speaker, the ability of workers to organize has been enhanced. There are quicker first contracts, there have been less costs through speedier handling of issues before the board and to date -- it's early in the game yet and that's why I haven't got up in this House to say anything before this -- it has been a success right down the line.

With respect to Bill 80, I want to say that it does not restrict, I tell my honourable friend, union members or workers' rights to join the union of their choice and it does set out prohibitions from the parent unions interfering with a local union, with the autonomy of the workers without just cause, which we think is something that's a step forward. It also provides effective representation in benefits and non-benefit plans, and it gives shared bargaining rights with the local unions as well as with the international that they represent.

Mr Gary Wilson: Minister, many of my constituents have been following the progress of Bill 80. They've participated in the consultations surrounding it and are anxious to see it reintroduced into the House for second reading. Just when can they expect to see Bill 80 back in the House?

Hon Mr Mackenzie: We have heard some of the concerns that were raised earlier by the member. We have been engaged in extensive consultations with the building trades unions and with both sides, those that are happy with Bill 80 and those that have some reservations about the legislation, and we are currently in the process of meeting with the various groups and discussing the concerns that have been raised by construction workers across the province of Ontario. I can tell you it is my intention to meet some of the concerns that are there when we bring the bill back in for second reading, and we hope to have it through in this session of the Legislature.

MINISTRY OF ENVIRONMENT AND ENERGY FUNDING

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): I have a question for the Minister of the Environment. When I had the opportunity to establish the investigations and enforcement branch of the Ministry of the Environment, it was set up as an independent branch whose mandate it was to investigate all environmental infractions and to enforce the environmental laws of the province of Ontario. It was deliberately separated from other branches of government and from the control of the minister in order that it may preserve its independence and do its job appropriately.

As the minister has been asked by the treasury board to look at his ministry to determine which parts of the ministry shall be dismantled or cut back, would the minister assure the House that the investigations and enforcement branch of the Ministry of the Environment first of all will not be reduced in size; second, will not be reduced in its mandate; and third, will be retained as a totally independent branch of the ministry and not integrated with other parts of the ministry as a so-called cost-saving measure?

Hon Bud Wildman (Minister of Environment and Energy): As the member will know, all ministries of the government are playing a role in the expenditure control plan of the provincial government, and the Ministry of Environment and Energy is playing a

part in that.

I think, though, that he will know that the cuts we have made have been made in such a way as to ensure that we will carry out our mandate for environmental protection and to ensure that the responsibilities of the Ministry of Environment and Energy are met. As a matter of fact, certain environmental groups have expressed the fact that they believe that the cuts have been made in such a way that our mandate will indeed continue to be met.

Specifically with regard to the enforcement branch, it is indeed independent and I expect that it will continue to carry out its mandate as it has in the past.

MOTIONS

PRIVATE MEMBERS' PUBLIC BUSINESS

Hon Brian A. Charlton (Government House Leader): I move that Mr Harris exchange places with Mrs Witmer in the order of precedence for private members' public business.

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

PETITIONS

ABORTION

Mr Allan K. McLean (Simcoe East): I have a petition here. Enclosed are photocopies of 586 names and signatures of persons in my constituency who signed cards concerning the report of the Task Group of Abortion Service Providers, and it's from Campaign Life Coalition.

GAMBLING

Mr Dennis Drainville (Victoria-Haliburton): Mr Speaker, I add to the thousands of signatures that I've introduced in this House concerning the issue of casino gambling:

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the New Democratic government has traditionally had a commitment to family life and quality of life for all the citizens of Ontario; and

"Whereas families are made more emotionally and economically vulnerable by the operation of various gaming and gambling ventures; and

"Whereas the New Democratic Party government has had a historical concern for the poor in society, who are particularly at risk each time the practice of gambling is expanded; and

"Whereas the New Democratic Party has, in the past, vociferously opposed the raising of moneys for the state through gambling; and

"Whereas the citizens of Ontario have not been consulted regarding the introduction of legalized gambling casinos despite the fact that such a decision is a significant change of government policy and was never part of the mandate given to the government by the people of Ontario,

"Therefore we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"That the government immediately cease all moves to establish gambling casinos and that appropriate legislation be introduced into the assembly along with a process which includes significant opportunities for public consultation and full public hearings as a means of allowing the citizens of Ontario to express themselves on this new and questionable initiative."

I am happy to affix my signature to this petition.

BICYCLING SAFETY

Mr Randy R. Hope (Chatham-Kent): I have with me today 4,200 signatures that have been circulated over a four-week period, which is addressed to the Speaker of the House and the Parliament of Ontario. It is, the undersigned support the voluntary use of bicycle helmets but are opposed to the province's implementing the mandatory use of bicycle helmets. It is also signed by a number of people throughout my riding and throughout Kent county, and it is also signed by our future voters of the province of Ontario who are opposed to the mandatory use of bicycle helmets.

LAYOFFS

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): I have a petition which is addressed to the Premier and members of the Legislature. It reads as follows:

"General Motors' announcement to close the foundry operations in St Catharines, with the resultant loss of 2,300 jobs, adds to the growing devastation of the vital manufacturing sector in the Canadian economy. The spinoff effects will result in four to six lost jobs in other sectors for every lost job in auto. The foundry closure also puts the remainder of General Motors' St Catharines operations in serious jeopardy, which has a total combined employee population of 9,000 hourly and salaried workers. We strongly urge the Ontario government to intervene in all possible manners to stop the erosion of jobs and the economic base of our province and, in particular, the Niagara region."

I have added to this petition my own signature, as I am in support of it.

NATIVE HUNTING AND FISHING

Mr Allan K. McLean (Simcoe East): I have a petition here to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas in 1923, seven Ontario bands signed the Williams Treaty, which guaranteed that native peoples would hunt and fish according to provincial and federal conservation laws, like everyone else; and

"Whereas the bands were paid the 1993 equivalent of $20 million; and

"Whereas that treaty was upheld by Ontario's highest court last year; and

"Whereas Bob Rae is not enforcing the existing laws which prohibit native peoples from hunting and fishing out of season; and

"Whereas this will put at risk an already pressured part of Ontario's natural environment,

"We, the undersigned, adamantly demand that the government honour the principles of fish and wildlife conservation; to respect our native and non-native ancestors and to respect the Williams Treaty."

That's signed by 30 people and myself.

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

Mr Ron Hansen (Lincoln): I have a petition here to the Legislative Assembly and the Lieutenant Governor of Ontario:

"Whereas the people of Ontario are undergoing economic hardship, high unemployment and are faced with the prospect of imminent tax increases; and

"Whereas the Ontario motorist protection plan currently delivers cost-effective insurance benefits to Ontario drivers; and

"Since the passing of Bill 164 into law will result in higher automobile insurance premiums for Ontario drivers,

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"That Bill 164 be withdrawn."

The Speaker (Hon David Warner): The member for Bruce.

Mr Murray J. Elston (Bruce): For me? Okay. Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I was so taken by that previous petition, I didn't get a chance to get up.

BRUCE GENERATING STATION

Mr Murray J. Elston (Bruce): "We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"When discussing the future of Bruce A, to consider that the undersigned are in full support of the continued operation of all the units at Bruce A. Furthermore, we support the expenditure of the required money to rehabilitate the Bruce A units for the following reasons:

"In comparison to other forms of generation, nuclear energy is environmentally safe and cost-effective. Rehabilitating Bruce A units is expected to achieve $2 billion in savings to the corporation over the station's lifetime. This power is needed for the province's future prosperity.

"A partial or complete closure of Bruce A will have severe negative impacts on the affected workers and will seriously undermine the economy of the surrounding communities and the province."

This has been endorsed by several organizations, including the Bruce Provincial Liberal Association and others, including the municipal governments and labour groups in the area, and I have affixed my name to the petition.

HOME CARE

Mr Larry O'Connor (Durham-York): I've got a petition here:

"We, the employees of health care in the community and members of the community, wish to protest the government's move to eliminate the provision of publicly funded home care by commercial companies.

"We feel that a balanced mix of not-for-profit and profit agencies should be maintained in order to keep the quality of care at a maximum and to service the needs of the community.

"The elimination of commercial agencies will put many more people out of jobs and cause less service to be supplied to people in the community."

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

Mr Randy R. Hope (Chatham-Kent): I have another petition here that was mailed to my office, and it's saying:

"Whereas the people of the province of Ontario are going through hard economic times, high unemployment and are faced with possible tax increases...."

They also say, for some reason, that the Ontario motorist protection plan is currently working well.

It's just signed by a number of residents throughout, I guess, Kent, Port Lambton, Chatham and Wallaceburg, and I wish to forward it to the Legislature.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Gilles E. Morin): The member for Bruce.

Mr Murray J. Elston (Bruce): Mr Speaker, it's so helpful to have the member for Chatham-Kent helping us out with the auto insurance bill.

BRUCE GENERATING STATION

Mr Murray J. Elston (Bruce): "We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"When discussing the future of Bruce A, to consider that the undersigned are in full support of the continued operation of all the units at Bruce A. Furthermore, we support the expenditure of the required money to rehabilitate the Bruce A units for the following reasons:

"In comparison to other forms of generation, nuclear energy is environmentally safe and cost-effective. Rehabilitating Bruce A units is expected to achieve $2 billion in savings to the corporation over the station's lifetime. This power is needed for the province's future prosperity.

"A partial or complete closure of Bruce A will have severe negative impacts on the affected workers and will seriously undermine the economy of the surrounding communities and the province."

Along with municipal governments, with labour groups and riding associations, I affix my signature in support of the petition.

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

Mr Kimble Sutherland (Oxford): I have a petition that was forwarded to me by Mr Wayne Geall, who's an auto insurance agent in my riding, and it says:

"To the Legislative Assembly and Lieutenant Governor of Ontario:

"Whereas the people of Ontario are undergoing economic hardship, high unemployment and are faced with the prospect of imminent tax increases; and

"Whereas the Ontario motorist protection plan currently delivers cost-effective insurance benefits to Ontario drivers;

"Since the passing of Bill 164 into law will result in higher automobile insurance premiums for Ontario drivers,

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"That Bill 164 be withdrawn."

There are 63 signatures on the petition.

BRUCE GENERATING STATION

Mr Murray J. Elston (Bruce): "We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"When discussing the future of Bruce A, to consider that the undersigned are in full support of the continued operation of all of the units at Bruce A. Furthermore, we support the expenditure of the required money to rehabilitate the Bruce A units for the following reasons:

"In comparison to other forms of generation, nuclear energy is environmentally safe and cost-effective. Rehabilitating Bruce A units is expected to achieve $2 billion in savings to the corporation over the station's lifetime. This power is needed for the province's future prosperity.

"A partial or complete closure of Bruce A will have severe negative impacts on the affected workers and will seriously undermine the economy of the surrounding communities and the province."

I affix my name in support of the petition.

ABORTION

Mr Noel Duignan (Halton North): I have a photocopied petition signed by some 989 names of persons in my riding who have signed petition cards concerning the task force group on abortion services. It's being submitted by Campaign Life Coalition.

BRUCE GENERATING STATION

Mr Murray J. Elston (Bruce): I have a petition. This is one in several which actually bring to the Legislative Assembly some 15,600 signatures in support of the protection of Bruce A.

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"When discussing the future of Bruce A, to consider that the undersigned are in full support of the continued operation of all of the units at Bruce A. Furthermore, we support the expenditure of the required money to rehabilitate the Bruce A units for the following reasons:

"In comparison to other forms of generation, nuclear energy is environmentally safe and cost-effective. Rehabilitating Bruce A units is expected to achieve $2 billion in savings to the corporation over the station's lifetime. This power is needed for the province's future prosperity.

"A partial or complete closure of Bruce A will have severe negative impacts on the affected workers and will seriously undermine the economy of the surrounding communities and the province."

This, as I have indicated, is supported by various organizations, including labour groups, business groups, the several riding associations previously mentioned and several municipal governments. I have affixed my name to the petition.

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

Mr Paul Wessenger (Simcoe Centre): I have a petition also with respect to Bill 164 and concern that it will result in higher automobile insurance premiums for Ontario drivers.

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"That Bill 164 be withdrawn."

BRUCE GENERATING STATION

Mr Murray J. Elston (Bruce): I must note while I'm reading the petitions today on Bruce A that we do anticipate in very short order that there will be several petitions to come here in the days ahead in support of the continued existence of Centralia College. But with respect to the over 15,000 supporters of this petition, I wish to read the following:

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"When discussing the future of Bruce A, to consider that the undersigned are in full support of the continued operation of all of the units at Bruce A. Furthermore, we support the expenditure of the required money to rehabilitate the Bruce A units for the following reasons:

"In comparison to other forms of generation, nuclear energy is environmentally safe and cost-effective. Rehabilitating Bruce A units is expected to achieve $2 billion in savings to the corporation over the station's lifetime. This power is needed for the province's future prosperity.

"A partial or complete closure of Bruce A will have severe negative impacts on the affected workers and will seriously undermine the economy of the surrounding communities and the province."

In addition to all of the other groups mentioned in support of this, I have affixed my name to the petition.

LAND-LEASE COMMUNITIES

Mr Larry O'Connor (Durham-York): I've got a petition here.

"We, the residents of land-lease communities, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas residents of Sutton-By-The-Lake felt the previous government set up a committee to report on land-lease communities but took no specific action to protect these communities;

"Whereas the residents of Sutton-By-The-Lake feel it should be a priority of this government to release the report and to take action to bring forward legislation on the following issues that surround land-lease communities;

"Whereas the residents feel that the government of Ontario should examine the problem of no protection against conversion to other uses which would result in the loss of home owners' equity;

"Whereas the residents of these communities do not receive concise and clear information about their property tax bills;

"Whereas there are often arbitrary rules set by landlords and owners of land-lease communities which place unfair restrictions and collect commissions on the resales of residents' homes;

"Whereas there has been confusion resulting in the status of residents with long-term leases where they fall under rent review legislation,

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to follow through and to release the committee report to the communities and to propose legislation to give adequate protection to the individuals of these land-lease communities."

This continues to be a concern of many residents in my community.

BRUCE GENERATING STATION

Mr Murray J. Elston (Bruce): "We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"When discussing the future of Bruce A, to consider that the undersigned are in full support of the continued operation of all of the units at Bruce A. Furthermore, we support the expenditure of the required money to rehabilitate the Bruce A units for the following reasons:

"In comparison to other forms of generation, nuclear energy is environmentally safe and cost-effective. Rehabilitating Bruce A units is expected to achieve $2 billion in savings to the corporation over the station's lifetime. This power is needed for the province's future prosperity.

"A partial or complete closure of Bruce A will have severe negative impacts on the affected workers and will seriously undermine the economy of the surrounding communities and the province."

In addition to councils, chambers of commerce, business associations and labour groups, riding associations and school boards, I have affixed my name in support of this petition, this particular one being one instalment in a series containing over 15,500 signatures in support of Bruce A. The people herein listed come from Whitby, Ajax, Toronto, Unionville and other places that are removed from the Bruce area, but that know of the importance of Bruce A to the future prosperity of the province.

INTERNATIONAL PLOWING MATCH

Mr Murray J. Elston (Bruce): Mr Speaker, I just rise to ask your direction. I have been requested by constituents to advise all members of the Legislative Assembly that the International Plowing Match will be held in Bruce county on September 21 and that there is a special invitation to all members to attend on Tuesday for the opening ceremonies.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

CITY OF LONDON ACT (VITAL SERVICES), 1993

On motion by Mrs Mathyssen, the following bill was given first reading:

Bill Pr13,

An Act respecting the City of London.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

MUNICIPAL STATUTE LAW

AMENDMENT ACT, 1993 / LOI DE 1993 MODIFIANT DES LOIS RELATIVES AUX MUNICIPALITÉS

Mr Hayes, on behalf of Mr Philip, moved second reading of the following bill:

Bill 7,

An Act to amend certain Acts related to Municipalities concerning Waste Management / Loi modifiant certaines lois relatives aux municipalités en ce qui concerne la gestion des déchets.

Mr Chris Stockwell (Etobicoke West): Mr Speaker, on a point of order: I ask if there's a precedent here with respect to having a junior minister in a ministry who should be here at this time for carriage of this particular piece of legislation. I can understand the minister not being here, but we've never been in a situation with a junior minister. We are now, and would it not be appropriate that if it is not the minister, then the junior minister must be in the House at the time legislation is being dealt with?

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Gilles E. Morin): He's a parliamentary secretary, and this is our procedure, so this is what we're following.

Mr Stockwell: Mr Speaker, on the point of order: The point I was trying to make was that it's either the minister or the second in charge who has to be in the House during carriage of legislation. Now that we have junior ministers, it would make sense to me that it's either the minister or the person who's second in charge: a parliamentary assistant if there's no junior minister, but if there's a junior minister, one or the other must be in the House, one or the other, the minister or the person who is second in charge in that ministry.

The member who is standing in his place today and introducing the bill is not the person who's second in charge in that ministry who has carriage in this House. I would ask, Mr Speaker, considering the fact that there is a minister and a junior minister, would it not be acceptable that one or the other must be here, that it's no longer the parliamentary assistant's role?

The Deputy Speaker: I have just explained to you that we're totally within the rules. He is the parliamentary secretary and therefore he has the right to represent the minister. I will not entertain that point of order any more. Mr Hayes.

Mr Pat Hayes (Essex-Kent): Thank you, Mr Speaker. I don't believe this is setting any type of precedent. I think one of the things the public really wants to know, and I'm sure the opposition, is that parliamentary assistants are exactly that: They're assistants to the ministers, and they have certain responsibilities. I'm looking forward to carrying out that responsibility.

As many of my colleagues will recall, the throne speech emphasized that this government's top priority is putting Ontario back to work. There's a very important part of the 10-point plan, which includes sustaining the environment by encouraging the emergence and growth of green industries.

My colleague the Minister of Environment and Energy introduced ambitious new regulations last week that will help ensure that Ontario meets a 50% waste reduction target by the year 2000. The regulations require businesses and municipalities to recycle more and to reduce the amount of solid waste going to landfill sites.

Today I'm introducing for second reading Bill 7, the legislation that will enable municipalities to implement these new regulations. Bill 7 gives municipalities increased powers to develop and operate comprehensive waste management programs, particularly the 3R programs. The bill amends the Municipal Act, the Regional Municipalities Act, 13 regional acts and the Municipal Affairs Act.

We know that many, indeed most, municipalities already have the 3R programs in place, but existing powers are inadequate for developing comprehensive waste management systems geared to waste reduction, and most municipalities lack explicit 3R powers.

In introducing Bill 7 for first reading, Municipal Affairs Minister Ed Philip noted, "It is important that communities have the tools they need to continue with innovative, effective and long-range waste management programs." Indeed, the Association of Municipalities of Ontario told us that municipalities clearly support this legislation which, in their words, "represents a close fit with the recommendations the association has made in the past for clear municipal legislative authority for waste management activities."

We've also received support in principle for the bill from the Ontario Waste Management Association, representing more than 250 private waste management firms. The Ontario Waste Management Association's members contributed numerous suggestions during our consultations that are reflected in Bill 7. I might add that they do have some concerns, and we'll be looking at amendments to address those particular concerns from the waste management association.

This kind of reaction from our partners tells us that we are on the right track in our approach to sustaining the environment. Let me provide some specifics of the enabling legislation.

Under the amendments to the Municipal Act, municipalities can establish and operate facilities for all waste management activities: collecting, reducing, reusing, recycling and waste disposal. They can charge user fees for waste collection and disposal. They now have powers to enter potential waste management sites to conduct surveys and soil tests. Accompanying these entry powers, of course, are procedural safeguards to protect the rights of property owners. Penalties for breaching municipal waste bylaws have been increased, and municipalities can market products made from waste materials.

Our legislation goes a lot further. We know that even in areas where the 3R powers already exist, they are vague and unclear about how the powers are distributed between the two tiers of municipal government in regional municipalities.

We have addressed this issue. Bill 7 clarifies that whatever level of government is currently responsible for waste disposal sites has the power to operate the 3R facilities. For example, in Metro, the upper tier currently has the power to dispose of waste; now it gets the power to process recyclables. In addition, upper tiers can assume any waste management authority from the lower tiers -- for example, collection -- but only if certain voting requirements are met.

I know that financial considerations are on everyone's mind these days. In fact, we have been asked, why give power when there's too little money to pay for waste management programs? Just as an example, Ontario spends about $33 per household a year for the blue box program. That cost, I submit, is a relative bargain, but the cost of not reducing and recycling is even higher. If we don't reduce, reuse and recycle, we end up sending more waste to landfill sites, and nobody wants that.

We have been asked about user fees which our legislation gives municipalities the power to charge. Of course, people pay for garbage services now through their property taxes. Our new legislation, however, allows municipalities to compute and levy these fees in a different way if they so choose. The great benefit of user fees is that they reward people for reducing the wastes they generate. But let me make this point clear: It's up to municipalities to decide whether they want to establish a user-fee system; our legislation simply ensures they have the authority to do so.

We also recognize that municipalities, like the provincial government, are facing unprecedented financial constraints these days. Despite these hardships, the Ministry of Environment and Energy plans to contribute its 3R financial and technical support programs for municipalities, which accounted for about a quarter of the cost to run 3R programs in 1991.

The government will also be looking very carefully at a more appropriate way of financing the system. Too much of the b