Manitoba Hansard — 5 April 1983 (Sitting 39B, 32nd Legislature, 2nd Session)

32-2-39b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second Legislature olthe Leglslatlve Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31-32 Elizabeth II Publl•hed undflr the authority of Tito Honourable D. Jame• Walding Speaker VOL. XXXI No. 398 - 8:00 p.m., TUESDAY, 5 APRIL, 1983. Printed by Ille Office of ll>e 0-s Prinfet. Province ol Alanlt obll

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon. Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J.

Frank KOSTYRA,Ho n. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wa lly MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Wa rren STORIE, Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Verendrye Min nedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elm wood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Ch arleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnk ster Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake Lac du Bonnet St.

Vital Party NOP NOP NOP PC PC PC NOP IND NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP PC PC PC NOP NOP PC NOP PC PC PC NOP NOP NOP PC PC NOP PC NOP PC NOP NOP PC PC PC PC PC PC NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP PC NOP NOP NOP PC NOP PC NOP NOP NDt NDP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 5 April, 1983. Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - LABOUR MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: We are on Item 2.(b)(1) pass; 2(b)(2)-pass; 2.(c)

(1) The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: I think the Mini ster wants to make a comment. A MEMBER: Does the Mini ster wish to say any1hing? HON. M. DOLIN: No, I don't think it's necessary to introduce this section. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd just like to ask the Mi nister a fairly general question in this area because I am sure she is aware, as I was aware when we were in government, of the difficulties that were being generated by the application of the fire code in arenas, especially in rural areas.

There were situations and there are situations in the rural areas at least with which I'm familiar of where, once the operators of the arena un dertake to make some improvements to it, there seems to be almost no end to the higher standards that have to be met. Communities have ended up spending far more money than they had ever expected to have to spend, far more money actually than the grants that were available even to pay for them, and there does seem to be many applications that don't really seem to make sense to most people.

Just as one minor example of the case in the arena in Boissevain, for instance, where there are metal posts supporting the upper floor, and they're told that they have to box in the metal posts with fireproof board because of the fact that a fire would eventually melt the metal posts and have the floor collapse. To most people, their feeling is there really isn't going to be anybody around by the time those metal posts collapse, and if they are, they're not going to be worth salvaging.

By the time a metal post has been heated to the point where it's going to melt, the chances of anybody surviving under those circumstanc es are about nil. To the best of my knowledge, there has never been a case in Western Canada, at least, where anyone has lost their life in a fire in an arena. There have been lots of arenas burned down, but to the best of my knowledge, there has never been anyone lose their life. So it's hard to make a case that life and limb are seriously threatened if some of these changes aren't made.

I know from experience with the Souris Arena, for instance, when the Mini ster and Deputy and others went out and went through the arena and worked through some of the recommendations that had been 1438 made and came up, finall y, with some compromises that seemed reasonable at the time. As a general question to the Min ister, I would ask her what sort of react ion she is get ting from communities generally; whether she thinks that the code may be too stringent; whether she's considering any kind of review of the code to see whether there could be something more practical put in place? MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Min ister. HON. M. DOLIN: In the Boissevain situation that the member descri bes, I belie ve a solu tion has been reached for those people. In fact, whenever a complaint is brought by a municipal ity, if it is brought by a municipality or a group in the situation such as the mem ber describe s, that is dealt with. We have sometimes gone out and made sure that all of the people instructing those who are doing the renovations or the building, whatever it is, are co-ordinated in their approach to fire safety and building safety.

You have two different codes, of course, that the building must comply with; one is the building code and the other is the fire code. I think co-ordination is an important issue. Whenever a specific complaint is raised over inability to pay for the renovations that have been indicated as necessary, or conflicting opinions of inspectors, and so on, we deal with that case and work with the people involved to reach a solution that is acceptable to all. In general, I really can't make a statement on it.

I certainly don't think it's appropriate to say that we're going to slack off on the fire code because people don't wish to comply with it or are finding it expensive to comply with or whatever. I think we have to deal with each situation as it arises. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Chairman, that, in all due respect, seems to me to be an answer that is perhaps generated by the system, that maybe the Min ister hasn't yet been exposed herself to some of the real problems that are encountered out there.

It's easy to say that we do our best to work out these problems, but I can tell you from first-hand experience that they have gone on and on and on in many cases, that the local people are at their wits' end with frustration because of problems they're having in undertstanding what needs to be done and then in finally getting it done. I don't really wish to get into the ind ividual problems as they' re encountered, because what it really boils down to is the application of the code.

A code, in my view after all, is only something that should be arrived at to serve the interests of people, to accomplish some purpose that people want to see accomplished. Just because there is a code doesn't necessarily mean that's the best code that could ever be, or that it shouldn't be changed. So the general question was, has the Min ister felt any need or any pressure to examine it to see if it is really doing what one would hope that it would do. Is it going farther than it's necessary to go? I get the

Tuesday, 5 April, 1983 impression now that there are situations out there where people don't want to touch anything in the existing arena s, for in stance, because they kno w from experience of other communities what it's going to lead to; that once they begin to make changes, they are going to have never-ending changes to make. So, nothing is done. What purpose is served by having that sort of thing happen in the country where people in charge just feel that they daren't touch it because they're going to open up something that they can't deal with, that it's beyond their financial means to deal with.

I think we're going to see within a fairly short period of time situations where perhaps rural rinks and arenas are going to be shut down because they can't afford to upgrade to the standards that are required, and since no upgrading is being done in some cases, they are deteriorating faster than would otherwise be the case. HON. M. DOLIN: Well, I think the member is aware that changes to the fire code are recommended to us by the Fire Advisory Commi ttee.

There is an Advisory Commi ttee of people who are familiar with this field; who certainly can hear representations from groups who feel that the code is too strict in one area, or not strict enough in another. That is one avenue that people have for expressing their opinion and having that opinion then come in the form of a recommendation to the government. The fire code itself is constantly under scrutiny and is monitored as to its effectiveness and so on. There are meetings not only in Manitoba, but across the count ry, with the national fire code and so on.

We work to maintain a compliance with that code as well. The fire code is just that, but it's there for a reason. I think the member is quite aware of the reason for having a fire code in the first place.

I think that with an advisory group such as the Fire Advisory Comm ittee available and being assured that certainly my office is ready to receive any ind ications from municipalities or groups that are involved in renovations of an arena, or whatever, with regard to the application of the fire code, with those invitations there for the acceptance of their complaints, opinions, concerns, we have a very open-door policy to that. I'm not sure what the member is suggesting that we should be doing other than that. MR. B.

RANSOM: I am suggesting what is happening out there is really beyond what would seem by all measures of common sense to be required. I suppose there is almost no end to how far one can go in trying to prevent an accident from happening, from injury or death from occurring, but in these cases, to the best of my knowledge, over the past decades even, there has never been a case where anyone has lost their life in an arena fire. So, it is very difficult, I believe, to say that all this is really essential in order to protect life and limb.

I mean it is one thing to have good exits and lighting systems and that sort of thing for people to get out, but when you finally get around to the point where you have to begin to box in a metal support because it's going to melt and have the roof fall in on somebody in an arena waiting room, it strikes the average person, that that is going beyond reason. I am sorry I used that phrase, that may be a . . . HON. M. DOLIN: We'll remember it. MR. B. RANSOM: I am sure the Mi nister must have had complaints about it because I have run into so much frustration on the part of people dealing with these arenas.

Now, if the Min ister is telling me that if people make submissions and she is prepared to look at those and indeed it might be possible to see changes made, fine, I am glad to hear that. I don't want to be criticizing staff for enforcing rules that politicians have passed. You can't expect to pass laws and regulations and then tell the staff not to enforce them. What I am talking about is evaluating the laws and the regulations that have been passed to see if they are serving a purpose that the public would really want them to serve. HON. M.

DOLIN: All I can say to the member is to reiterate what I said before and refer particularly to the issue that he is raising as an example and that's the Boissev ain situation where upon receiving a complaint about the strict enforcement of, actually it was the Building Code that deals with those posts. There was agreement reached, I suppose not entirely to the satisfaction of our people enforcing the code, but to the municipality's satisfaction.

My understanding is that the difference in usage of the building and the upstairs is going to be used for parties and so on, social events, was the reason for the change in requirements in the renovations, or the change that had to do with the structure and the posts that upheld it and so on. But that situation was dealt with and that is the way that we handle these cases. If there is not satisfaction or if there is concern on the part of the people doing the renovations, all they have to do is let us know that and we will deal with it on a one-to-one basis. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 2.(c)(1) - pass; 2.(c)(2)-pass; 2.(d)(1) -the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, does the Minis ter have anything she wishes to comment on? HON. M. DOLIN: I will just int roduce this branch, if you will, by saying that they are responsible for the admin istration and enforcement of legislation that concerns minimum standards relating to matters such as hours of work, vacations with pay, general holidays, wages and their payment, and so on. There's no request for a change in staffing for this branch this year. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, could the Minis ter advise as to how much money was paid out under the Payment of Wages Fund during the fiscal year '82-83? HON. M. DOLIN: At this point, $407,000 has been paid out in the '82-83 fiscal year. That's not the absolute, final number; it will be somewhat higher than that. MR. G. MERCIER: I believe $15 0,000 was budgeted for the fiscal year '82-83. HON. M. DOLIN: That's right. MR. G. MERCIER: How much is budgeted in '83-84? 1439

Tuesday, 5 April, 1983 HON. M. DOLIN: $700,000.00. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the Annual Report indicates that the branch, upon receipt of a complaint with respect to unpaid wages, will attempt to recover the outstanding monies from the employer. However, if such recovery is thwarted or results in a protracted battle, the fu nd is utili zed to ensure payment to employees as quickly as possible. In a newspaper

article last June, it was indicated by Mr. Moggey that if all reasonable efforts to recover money have been exhausted and a period of 30 days elapses, the employee is entitled to recover his wages up to a maximum of $1,200 from a government fund established by the Conser vative administration the previous year. Today, I asked the Mini ster, Mr. Chairman, some questions with respect to claims involving Terry Balkan Che vrolet-Oldsmobile Ltd., in which it appears that the Employment Standards Division ordered Mr. Balkan to pay his employees some $79,000 last October. Mr.

Balkan appealed the order to the Labour Board and they reduced the amount by $1 0,000 and he's now apparently appealing the order to the County Court. But in the meanwhile, the employees have not received any money. Can the Mi nister explain, in view of the statements in the Annual Report, that the fund is utilized to ensure payments to employees as quickly as possible, in the statement I quoted in the newspaper, quoting Mr. Moggey, why have the employees not been paid from the Payment of Wages Fund? HON. M. DOLIN: Because the matter is before the court. MR. G.

MERCIER: But it seems to me that under the legisla tion the empl oyees could be paid and enforcement proceedings could be taken against Mr. Balkan. HON. M. DOLIN: The order of the Labour Board was disputed, and that's what's before the courts. Now, the courts may determine that there should be more or less paid, they may make another determination, and we cannot pay monies out of the fund and settle this matter until the court makes its decision. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that the courts may determine that either Mr.

Balkan or the company have to pay the employees, and as to what amounts but, in the meanwhile, it seems to me that under this whole proposal, and this whole scheme that we established, the empl oyees could be paid immediately, otherwise, it's almost a useless endeavour. The idea was to provide some money to the employees for lost wages as soon as possible. HON. M. DOLIN: What is in dispute is the Labour Board ruling. Now, I would certainly hope that the courts would not overturn the Labour Board ruling, but that in fact, I suppose, could happen.

They could also determine that a lesser amount, a greater amount, could be owed to the employees. When the matter is before the Court we can't proceed. It has to be settled before the court and then we can proceed. But what is in dispute is the Labour Board ruling. MR. G. MERCI ER: Ther e appear s to me to be something wrong here. I'm not sure, under what Act has the Labour Board made this ruling? HON. M. DOLIN: Under The Payment of Wages Act. MR. G.

MERCIER: Is the Mini ster telling me that in every other case where some $457,000 in monies have been paid out in the last fiscal year, that the Employment Standards Division has waited until they have an order from the Labour Board? HON. M. DOLIN: To the best of my knowledge there's only been one other situation that was challenged that went before the courts. The others, the Labour Board makes a ruling and the employee (sic) either pays or it's paid out of the fund if the employee (sic) doesn't pay and then we try to recover it, so we don't get into this kind of a situation.

But in this particular case, the ruling of the Labour Board has been challenged. MR. G. MERCIER: Does the department wait in every case for an order from the Labour Board before it pays any money out of the Payment of Wages Fund? HON. M. DOLIN: Not necessarily. If it's not contested, then it doesn't have to go before the Labour Board. MR. G.

MERCIER: My understanding of this whole fund is that it was designed to provide payment up to $1,200 to employees who, for some reason or other, had not been paid by their employer, and that usually involved a few weeks pay that was very recent, and that this money was paid to the employees and the steps to recover the money really came second. If the money is paid out right now to the employees, cannot the action to recover from Balkan, or the company, or whoever, can still survive, can it not? HON. M.

DOLIN: Well, whether or not we consider that the ruling of the Labour Board was a correct one, I think is probably not relevant at this point. Obviously the owners of Terry Balkan Chev Olds feel that they have a right to appeal, which they do, that decision, and that is what they are doing, and the way that they appeal that is by taking it to court, challenging it, and that is where the situation is now. I'm sure that the member is aware that when that procedure takes place, that takes precedence over anything else; that's the procedure that you then must wait for.

That's the court of appeal and so on, and that decision must be rendered. To act on the decision of the Labour Board without having the court case heard would not be proper. MR. G. MERCIER: The fact of the matter is that under the Payment of Wages Fund, the employees are entitled to compensation up to $1,200 for lost wages. Whether Mr. Balkan is responsible for that, personally, or the company, or to what degree he is responsible, is that not something that can be determined later and through these court proceedings but, in the meanwhile, the employees can be paid? HON. M.

DOLIN: Normally when there is a court proceeding under way, as the member knows, there is 1440

Tuesday, 5 April, 1983 a stay or a hold on all other proceedings. That's what we're talking about here. Also, in- the past it has happened that a court decision has lessened the amount payable to the employees. We don't know whether that will happen in this case or not. But once an appeal is before the court on a decision of the Labour Board, then we have to wait to see whether the court is going to uphold or overturn that decision. MR. G. MERCIER: Is the question before the courts whether Balkan is responsible personally or the company is responsible, or is the question as to how much is owing? HON. M.

DOLIN: The appeal is apparently whether Balkan is responsible himself for the payment of these wages. MR. G. MERCIER: That's what I was saying then, Mr. Chairman, if it's a question of whether it's Balkan or the company, then that can be decided through the court action. In the meanwhile, employees should be compensated and the division can take action against whoever the court decides is responsible, at a later date. But, in the meanwhile, employees are suffering while the courts decide whether it's Balkan or the company. HON. M. DOLIN: What is also in dispute is the amount owed.

As I have said, that can be changed. It has been changed sometimes in the past. We don't know whether it will be changed in this case. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I would urge the Min ister to look into this matter perhaps in some greater detail that's available to her through her department, because it seems to me to be an injustice to the workers, created in the way in which this is being handled.

The intention was to provide compensation to the workers and the legal actions to recover take place, they're important, certainly, and if there's a possibility of recovery then every action should be taken, but that is secondary. Mr. Chairman, could the Mi nister indicate whether or not she plans on making legislative changes to The Payment of Wages Act at this session of the Legislature? HON. M. DOLIN: Yes. MR. G. MERCIER: And what changes would those be? HON. M. DOLIN: Basically, the changes will affect the priority given to wages. MR. G. MERCIER: How? HON. M.

DOLIN: It will give wages a higher priority than they have now. MR. G. MERCIER: Over what? HON. M. DOLIN: Over secured creditors; in cases of receiverships and so on. MR. G. MERCIER: Does she -the Min ister is being very vague, Mr. Chairman, it's difficult to deal with this un less she's going to be specific. Will The Payment of Wages Act gi ve priorit y over mortgages agai nst property? HON. M. DOLIN: I think that the member has to understand that we are ready to put the legislation on the Order Paper as soon as it is printed, and that detail will be available to him then. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 2.(d)(1) -The Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Chairman, sometime ago the Min ister was kind enough to meet with me to discuss a problem that some of my constituents had and I subsequently wrote a letter to the Min ister in January outlining this problem, and I think I should put some of it on the record here as to the background to it before proceeding to ask the Min ister some further questions. Last summer, there were 18 young people employed by a person in my constituency to help dismantle a grain elevator. These people had not been paid by the time this person went bankrupt.

Six of those 18 young people had knowledge of the Payment of Wages Fund and made application to be paid from the fund within the time that was required by the Act. Those six people claimed in total at the time, $1, 312 .84; they were subsequently reimbursed a total of $3,075.27 because the rate of pay was not according to standard. The other 12 people were late in applying to be paid out of the Payment of Wages Fund because they had no knowledge that there even was a Payment of Wages Fund in existence.

Some of these people had been directed to this job by the local job office, so that there seemed to be some feeling on their part that they were going to be advised, looked after -whatever you wish to describe it in terms of the problem that they had - especially once they learned that some of the people who had been employed were evidently going to be paid from the Payment of Wages Fund. Because one or more of the 18 was to be paid, the rest assumed that they also would be paid because they didn't understand the legalities of the situation involved.

As it happened, one or more of those 12 were subsequently advised that because they had missed the deadline, the case was closed, the file was closed and they would not be paid. So, the point that was arrived at then was that six of the 18 had not only been paid what they thought was due to them, they were actually paid over twice as much as they thought they had coming to them, and the other 12 were paid nothing.

Now, my question to the Mini ster was, would she consider taking some kind of action to see that these other 12 young people were treated in what anybody would regard as an equitable way and be paid out of the fund, even if that required the Min ister to bring in

an Act of the Legislature to extend the period of time for applying because I think the period to apply was simply one of adminis trative convenience, nothing especially significant about the period of time of 30 days that had been established. Because this fund was new, of course, and most of these young people were young people and hadn't been in the labour force to any extent, they had no knowledge that the fund existed. 1441

Tuesday, 5 April, 1983 My question now to the Mini ster is, what does she see happening by way of ensuring that these 12 young people will be paid the wages from the Payment of Wages Fund as were the other six of the 18 . HON. M. DOLIN: As I responded to the member on March 2nd by letter, we have included all the people on the list, all the young people he mentioned, in the investigation of this particular matter.

The department is filing a Proof of Claim with the Trustee and as soon as we have verification from the Trustee, we will be making payment to these young people, all of them, out of the Payment of Wages Fund. My copy of that letter is dated March 2nd. MR. B. RANSOM: I'm glad to hear that the payment . will be made, Mr. Chairman. The letter that I have doesn't indicate that. It says that additional orders under The Payment of Wages Act will be issued to this person's brother. It doesn't say that the people will be paid out of the fund. Now the Min ister is assuring me that this payment will be made? HON. M.

DOLIN: Yes. MR. B. RANSOM: Can she give any indication of how long that might be as to when that could be done? HON. M. DOLIN: As soon as we receive confirmation from the Trustee the payment will be made. MR. B. RANSOM: I'm sorry, what kind of confirmation is required from the Trustee? HON. M. DOLIN: That the amounts are correct. We need confirmation from the Trustee that the amounts are correct and then we will pay the money out. MR. B. RANSOM: Just for information then, was that confirmation provided earlier for the other six people? HON. M.

DOLIN: In case of a bankruptcy, we always get confirma tion from the Trustee regar ding the payment of wages so that procedure would have been followed for them as well. This was a bankruptcy case as you are aware. MR. B. RANSOM: Could the Min ister hazard a guess then, as to why the Trustee seems to be taking so long to confirm this because earlier I gathered that the other six people must have received a rather quick confirmation because they received their money in reasonably good time. This has now been active for some period. HON. M.

DOLIN: The second group of young people to which you are referring did not apply with the first group under The Payment of Wages Act so there was a delay in the application to the Public Trustee for confirmation of the amount to be paid. The letter to you confirming that that had gone forward was written on March 2nd. It usually takes about a month to go through the procedure of having the Trustee verify the claim and have it get back to us and the payout be made. That month has elapsed and I would suggest that payment is imminent. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr.

Chairman, then I would like to extend my sincere thanks to the Min ister for handling this situation in this fashion because up to the point that it had been brought to her attention, the 12 people were not going to be paid out of the fund and it did appear that there would a very inequitable situation. I'm sure that they will be very happy to learn that they will be treated in a way that everyone would perceive as fair. I thank the Min ister for her work. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(d)(1) - pass. The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, could the Min ister advise whether there have been any change s in membership on the Minimum Wage Board? HON. M. DOLIN: There haven't been any changes on the Mi nimum Wage Board to this date. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the last recommendation made to the Mini ster of Labour was March 3, 1982, with respect to a review of the minimum wage for Manitoba. Has the Mini ster received a further report recommending -or not recommending any changes in the minimum wage? HON. M. DOLIN: The Board has not made a recommendation to me since I have become Mi nister of Labour. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, is the Minis ter seeking a recom menda tion or expecting to receive a recommendation shortly with respect to changes in the minimum wage? HON. M. DOLIN: The matter of the minimum wage is under consideration now. The process that the Board goes through is that it only meets at those times when it is called into action if you will, to make a determination or a recommendation on a particular issue. So, that kind of situation will exist now. The matter of minimum wage is under consideration at this point. MR. G. MERCIER: Has the Min ister called them into action? HON. M. DOLIN: No, not at this point. MR. G.

MERCIER: When does the Minis ter expect to receive a recommendation then? HON. M. DOLIN: As soon after I ask them for one. MR. G. MERCIER: When does the Min ister expect to ask them for one? HON. M. DOLIN: As soon after I finish Estimates. I don't have much time in my office right now. MR. G. MERCIER: Is it the intention of the Minis ter to follow the majority report of the Min imum Wage Board, or does she have her own personal views? HON. M. DOLIN: I would certainly have to wait until a recommendation was made before I could even hazard a guess on answering that question. 1442

Tuesday, 5 April, 1983 MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, for the benefit of others, I only raise that question because last year the Min ister followed the minority report of the Minimum Wage Board and not the majority report HON. M. DOLIN: It seems to me that's the option of the Mini ster or the government. MR. G. MERCIER: It was for the first time, I think. HON. M. DOLIN: Well, we're innovative. That's right. We're not followers, we're leaders. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, last year we discussed with the then Mini ster whether or not the Min ister was going to introduce legislation related to the protection of young night staff; the Mi nister said that was under study. HON. M. DOLIN: I believe you are talking about the legislation related to workers workin g alone. That legislation or recommendation for legislation, or whatever, will be brought forward by the Mini ster responsible for Workplace, Health and Safety. We have been working very closely with that department, but that is the department that is responsible for Workplace, Safety Legislation.

That is where it will be brought forward. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(d)(1) -pass; 2.(d)(2) -the Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: To the Min ister, I am not sure I'm in the right section, whether (

e) or (

d) would be the right one. I don't want to do anything that would have the Chairman calling me out of order. So, is this where one would discuss issues relating to The Construction Industry Wages Act? HON. M. DOLIN: Yes. MR. D. ORCHARD: -(Interjection) - Mr. Chairman, if the Mini ster of Cultural Affairs, keeps it up, he's not going to win the smiling contest. He's entirely too jovial lately.

To the Minis ter, is the Mi nister aware of activities I assume of, I don't know whether they're inspectors or what their positions are within the department, that are calling upon the various municipal offices and finding fault with the hiring practices of some of the municipal offices in terms of their employment of their equipment operators and requiring the municipalities to bring their empl oyees under the wage

schedule s that are negotiated and published under The Construction Industry Wages Act? HON. M. DOLIN: Yes, I am aware of the situation that the member describes, although I don't believe it is exactly as he has described. I don't think that our inspectors are questioning the employment practices, but rather they are making sure there is compliance with The Construction Wages Act in the payment of municipal employees. However, there is a complicating factor here and that is that some municipaliti es employ these people year-round and they do so for several different jobs.

That is an issue that I have discussed with the Union of Manitoba Municip alities, and have indicated to them that we have taken this concern under advisement and I have referred it to the Construction Wages Board as an issue that is slightly different from the one that they deal with when they design the construction wages and make recommendations for the wages to be included in that Act. MR. D. ORCHARD: The Min ister has referred the issue for review.

In the meantime, are there any orders being made by her department to require municipal councils or mun icipal itie s to comply comp letely with The Construction Wages Act and require them to pay certain employees more money? HON. M. DOLIN: If there have been und erpayments under the Act -according to the Act if there have been underpayments made, yes, then the department does issue an order to comply with the Act. MR. D. ORCHARD: Are there a number of these orders outstanding right now? HON. M. DOLIN: The majority of such orders have been complied with at this point. MR. D.

ORCHARD: I think the Min ister has gotten herself into a bit of a problem with this. I don't fault the Min ister, because I don't think she's aware that it was necessarily happening and I certainly don't think she would have directed it. The municipal ities in their hiring practices over a number of years have built up a staff of competent people who undertake probably two or three different types of work for the municipal ity, from snowploughing in the wintertime to road maintenace, even road construction, in the summertime.

Now, these people who have been there for a long time prefer to be paid not on an hourly basis according to the hours they work, but they like to have their income spread out over a 12-month period. They are, by and large, satisfied with their salary packages. They may work 60 hours certain weeks in the summer and 10 or 15 hours, or maybe none, some weeks in the wintertime. Now, the Mini ster, in requiring the municipalities to comply to the letter of the law here, are creating some interesting contrasts amongst the employees. I'll give you an example.

In one municipality, the employee that had been there app roxima tely 20 years, I suppose, is making somewhere in the neighbourhood of $1 8,000.00. Now, in his classifica tion accord ing to your Heavy Construction Wage Act, he should be paid 22,080 hours at $8. 15 , and he comes in being paid that. Now, they've hired on a young man, and this young fellow, they want to keep him year-round because he's got potential. Last summer was his first summer. He only worked a few months of the year, and they've kept him on year round.

He did run some pieces of heavy equipment, which would qualify him for the $8. 15 , and the board has made the ruling that because he is still employed, that you must guarantee him that minimum of 2,080 hours. So here is the 20-year person getting paid $1 8,000; and by the directive of your board, the fellow 1443

Tuesday, 5 April, 1983 that just got hired on last year as a brand new worker is also going to be getting in the neighbourhood of that $18,000 per year. The option that you're forcing the municipalities to undertake is to disrupt their normal hiring practices and hire this person only by hourly wage rates, and then come fall, lay him off and put him on unemployment insurance or whatever other means of support he may have. The employee doesn't want that; the municipality doesn't want that; the only people that want that is your department.

I think the municipalities make very st rong and legitima te arguments that their hir ing practices have not been to the disadvantage of the employee. They have in most cases been to his benefit, because he has preferred to be on a 12 equal-monthly payment so that he doesn't have an up and a down in income and, indeed, that he isn't laid off in the wintertime.

I think the Mini ster can appreciate in the wintertime a staff of five is probably not needed; a staff of two would take care of most of the winter work; but a staff of five is needed in some municipalities for the summertime; but they're attempting to provide year round employment and that attempt is being thwarted by a ruling from your department. I think the municip alities make a legitimate case that they should not fall under this Act, because if they do fall under, they'll comply with it to the letter of the law, pay hourly wages and, as I say, lay off in the off months.

I don't think that's to the advantage of the worker. I would ask the Min ister if she would not require any further compliance with the Act, any outstanding orders to put a hold on them, until you take a look at the way of resolving this problem, because it is a serious problem for the municip alities. HON. M. DOLIN: Well, Mr. Chairman, I think I have answered this question very fully, and I don't understand really why the member is reiterating and restating everything again. I have said that the issue was discussed with the principals involved.

I personally discussed it with the representatives of the Union of Manitoba Muni cipalities. They expressed their concern to me. I have referred the issue to the Construction Wages Board. The staff of the department certainly does not make up these rules. We have

an Act which they are charged with monitoring and enforcing. The Act itself has been referred to the Labour Law Review, and may or may not be changed within the next little while. All of these things are taking place, and I'm sure that the concerns that the member has expressed are being dealt with. It is being given serious consideration on two different levels and a solution will be reached. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is the Member for Pembina through with this line of questioning? MR. D. ORCHARD: No, I'm not, Mr. Chairman. Are there any outstanding compliance orders that haven't been paid yet? HON. M.

DOLIN: I can get that information for the member. There may be one or two outstanding. I don't have the orders here tonight. MR. D. ORCHARD: I think there's at least one. My question would be to the Mi nister; since she's got this under review, since she is fully cognizant of the problem that is being caused, will she insist that this municipali ty, despite the fact she's got this under review, be required to comply with the Act? That may solve your problem. HON. M. DOLIN: Mr. Chairman, I'm not going to give that promise tonight without having seen the compliance order that the member feels is outstanding.

I don't even know that it is outstanding. I will have to see what that situation is. To grant non-compliance with

an Act is not something one does lightly. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'll just ask the Mini ster if she could investigate the circumstance surrounding the R.M. of Louise. What I believe and I'm not 100 percent positive, but at last checking, the compliance order was still outstanding, that the R.M. had to make a payment to two of their employees. The order is antici pated. I don't know where your staff is at, but they have let it be known to the R.M. that there are, in their view, wages due to two employees; and at last word, they were going to insist on compliance with the Act.

I would like the Min ister, since she's got it under review recognizing the problem, if she would give consideration to having those people not so imposed upon? HON. M. DOLIN: I have ind icated to the member what we are doing to look at this situation. There is no provision within the Act for the banking of hours or for any change in the way that the Act is applied. That is what we are looking at, to see whether it is appropriate to make that kind of change in the Act. That is the only assurance I can give the member at this time. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, Mr.

Chairman, the Min ister can't give the kind of insurance that naturally the R.M.s would like to see, and that's fine; she's got it under consideration. The other question I would have is; obviously, The Construction Industry Wages Act has been enforced, I believe, since mid '70s and obviously the Munici pal Councils have been operating in this method for a number of years, yet it is only in the last several months that they have been called upon to comply with the Act. The question I have would be to the Minis ter, did you ask staff to investigate the Municipal Councils to assure that they were complying.

Did you initi ate the kinds of directives that went out? HON. M. DOLIN: The procedure followed by the staff is that there is a survey done annually and that is where this information was picked up. The Construction Wages Act, I believe, has been in place longer than 10 years -I'm not sure of the date of enactment.

Perhaps a clarification - there was an amendment brought in to The Construction Wages Act about two years ago that brought municipalities under The Construction Wages Act and that would explain why they are picked up in the annual surveying done by the department now and they hadn't been in the past -10 years ago or whatever. MR. D. ORCHARD: Now, two other questions on this subject. I noticed the schedules are laid out of wages. Are there any apprentice wages that are part of this schedule? 1444

Tuesday, 5 April, 1983 HON. M. DOLIN: No, there are not. MR. D. ORCHARD: What's the rationale for not having apprentice wages, because obviously people aren't instantly as skillf ul as a several-year employee when they just start? HON. M. DOLIN: It's my und erstanding that the Construction Wages Board has not been able to agree and therefore come forward with a recommendation on an appropriate rate for training for apprenticeships. MR. D. ORCHARD: Is that something they are looking at right now? HON. M.

DOLIN: No, the Board has not come forward with any recommendations and isn 't pursuing the training or apprenticeship level at this point in time. MR. D. ORCHARD: Is there a process of appeal, for instance, for a person who has been ordered to pay wages? Is there an appeal process? HON. M. DOLIN: To the Labour Board. MR. D. ORCHARD: There is an appeal to the Labour Board under The Construction Industry Wages Act? HON. M. DOLIN: Yes, they may appeal a decision made under that Act, to the Labour Board. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Min nedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Mr.

Chairman, my case was identical almost to the one the Member for Pembina has just so eloquently put before the ... I'm sorry I fed you all that material, Don. Mr. Chairman, I can't reiterate too strongly what my colleague, the Member for Pembina, has stated because that is creating a problem with municipal people and I appreciate the Minis ter's answers and she has indicated she is checking into some of them. I would like her to check into the RM of Glenella who have apparently been ordered to pay $5,500.00.

Along the lines as the Member for Pembina said, if the municipality hired someone on a flat monthly fee of say, $1 ,300 or $1 ,500 a month, whatever it may be, he's happy, he can meet his budget, he makes his mortgage payments and various other things. He may work long hours during the summer and he may work very small hours during the winter, unless they have a bad blizzard or something like that and he's required to work for a couple of days and then he's finished until the next blizzard arrives.

His only alternative is to be laid off in November and be called back in May and dr aw unemplo yment insurance or whatever else he requires to provide for his family in the interim period. The Mi nister mentioned the rules of the game earlier on, and as she well knows, rules I think are made for guidance; they're not hard and fast.

I think when she's looking at the problem, if she works_ with the municipal people and arriv es at some thing that's mutually satisfactory with the hiring practices of the municipalities as long as it's agreeable with the employees, I think she will find that things go along very, very smoothly 1445 and we won't be required to go into these investigations, and in some cases, there may be some abuse of the hiring on both sides, I don't know, but I would just reiterate what my colleague from Pembina has said and urge the Min ister to look into these various cases.

I'm sure that the people investigating do consult with the employees and find if they are happy with the working relationship they have, or if the cause of complaint has been instituted by the employee, or whether it's just on the whim of the department that they're checking this out and find out that they can maybe do better for the employee and are going to stick it to the municipalities, because there is no question that's what the municipaliti es feel is happening. I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman, I didn't catch the remarks of the Member for Wolseley. The Member for Wolseley said, Mr.

Chairman, that they used to say that slaves were happy and I don't doubt that many of them were. It would depend what fringe benefits they had to enjoy, I suppose, for the circumstances they were living under. But I don't think you can compare the employees of municipalities throughout the Province of Manitoba in any way, shape or form to the situation that the Member for Wolseley refers to.

I think we've advanced far beyond that, and as I mentioned earlier, there are working relationships set up with the employees and with the municipal people that are mutually satifactory to them both, witho ut the in terference of the Empl oyee Standards Board, to squeeze an extra few dollars out of the municipal ity, that in most cases is going to result in a detrimental situation to the employee, because they're going to say, that's fine Charlie, you're a great guy, but in November we can lay you off and goodbye.

You draw unemployment insurance, we'll call you back in the spring when we need you and we'll hire a private contractor to clear the roads if we have a bad blizzard this winter. That's what I'm saying, as long as the arrangement is satisfactory, I think you have to have a regulation that's fle xibl e enough to allo w for a harmonious relationship between that empl oyee and with his employer. HON. M. DOLIN: The RM of Glenella has been added to my short list with the RM of Louise, and we will check on that.

I would just like to point out to the member that this information was picked up in a survey done annually by the department; it's nothing new. What is new is the amendment to the Act brought in, not by my immediate predecessor, but the one before that, two years ago, which added municipalities to those groups covered by The Construction Wages Act. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2(d)(1) - pass; The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, at the last Session of the Legislature there were amendments to The Employment Standards Act to include domestic workers who were employed 24 hours or more per week.

Su bsequently regulations were passed effective November 1st by the department. I wonder, could the Min ister indicate how many domestics come within the protection of the Act and the regulations who work more than 24 hours per week?

Tuesday, 5 April, 1983 HON. M. DOLIN: The exact number of people employed as domestics, be there slightly less or more than 24 hours per week in that particular role, is very difficult to assess. What the regulations, and, of course, inclusion in the Act does is give them the right to the same employment standards as other workers and they can therefore come forward under that Act and claim those rights. MR. G.

MERCIER: Un less someone comes forward to claim the protection of The Employment Standards Act the department has no knowledge of whether or not someone is working more than 24 hours per week, is that right? HON. M. DOLIN: Unl ess someone comes forward, well, what we do, of course, is we do our very best to let people know that they are covered and included in The Employment Standards Act. We've had two cases come forward under this particular provision and both have been resolved in the employees' favour. MR. G. MERCIER: But you don't have any idea how many people are . HON. M.

DOLIN: Are actually emp loyed in that occupation? No, we don't have a figure to put to that occupation. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(d) ( 1) - pass; 2. (d)(2)- pass; 2.(dX3)- pass. 2.(eX1) -the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Does the Mini ster want to make any comment? HON. M. DOLIN: Perhaps I could just outline the functions of the Labour Board. They are two. As the Manitoba Labour Board it deals with the applications filed pursuant to The Labour Rela tions Act and Workplace Safety and Health Act. As the Wages Board appointed under

Section 2 of The Payment of Wages Act it deals with complaints referred to the board by the Employment Standards Division under The Payment of Wages Act. The Employment Standards Act, The Vacations with Pay Act and The Construction Industry Wages Act. There is no change in staffing for this year. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, could the Min ister ind icate how many applications were made for first contracts? HON. M. DOLIN: There have been nine. MR. G. MERCIER: How many first contracts have been imposed? HON. M. DOLIN: There have been none imposed. MR. G.

MERCIER: The legislation is working better than I thought. - (Interjection) - That's right, whether you believe in free collective bargaining or not. HON. M. DOLIN: We knew it would. MR. G. MERCIER: Is the Mini ster intending to make changes in the Leg isla tion at this Session of the Legislature? HON. M. DOLIN: As the member knows we have a Labour Law Review about to begin and certainly within the aegis of that responsibility all labour laws will be looked at and codification or recommendation for such will come forward. MR. G.

MERCIER: So after there are public hearings on the review of labour law legislation there may be some amendments but there will be no amendments at this Session of the Legislature with respect to the first contract laws? HON. M. DOLIN: I wouldn't say that there is absolutely no possibility of that not happening sooner but certainly I can assure the member that the whole area of labour law will be looked at under the review. MR. G. MERCIER: But the Min ister is not certain yet whether there will be amendments to the first contract amendments that were brought in last year? HON. M.

DOLIN: I can't say at this time whether there will be amendments brought in before the full labour law review comes forward with its recommendations and subsequent legislative changes. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, does the Min ister during the term of this government, intend to bring in legislation that would be aimed at banning the use of non-union workers during a labour dispute? HON. M. DOLIN: The member himself has called for public hearings and for a widespread discussion of the changes to be made to labour law.

These will all take place and there will be opportunity to discuss the recommendations coming forward from those persons doing the labour law review and at that time all possibili ties will be discussed and will be weighed and everyone will have an ample opportunity for input. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(eX1) - pass; 2.(eX2)-pass; 2.(fX1) -the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, you have to appreciate I only received the report of the department today. Is there any increase in staff man years in this department?

Last year when we discussed this area there was dis cussion about adding additional conciliation officers. HON. M. DOLIN: No, there is no increase in the staff years. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(fX1) -pass; 2.(fX2)-pass. Resolution 10 5 -Resolved that there be granted to her Majesty a sum not exceeding $6, 180, 100 for Labour and Employment Services for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March 19 84- pass. We are now in Item 3.(aX1) . HON. M.

DOLIN: This branch was previously known as the Employment and Youth Services Branch and the name change is the res.ult of the recent reorganization of the Emplo yment Services Division reflect ing 1446

Tuesday, 5 April, 1983 increased activity in the area of non-youth-related job creation activities. Another major effect of the reorganization on this particular branch, has been the transfer of the southern regional field unit to the new Employment Training and Regional Services Branch. Finally, the responsibility for administration of Youth Employment Program was transferred to this Branch during the 1982-83 fiscal year. MR. G. MERCIER: Could the Min ister explain the inc rease in expenditure in this particular area from $51 ,900 to $1 26,400.00? HON. M.

DOLIN: There is an increase that relates to our job creation activities of four persons. MR. G. MERCIER: What is the responsibility of those persons? HON. M. DOLIN: Their responsibility is the monitoring, reporting, financial administration and so on, of job creation activities. MR. G. MERCIER: Of which job creation activities? Where is the expansion in job creation activities? HON. M. DOLIN: All job creation activities -the co ordination of all of these job creation activities. whether it be from the Jobs Fund or from ongoing programs within the department. MR. G.

MERCIER: This is where the co-ordination of the Jobs Fund activities will take place? HON. M. DOLIN: The respons ibili ty for the administration of job creation activities lies within this part of the department and part of the responsibility is within this particular Branch. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, wher e is the expansion of job creation activities? HON. M. DOLIN: The $200 million appropriated within the Budget is the expansion of job creation activities. Those are going to be -some of them -coming under way in the future, during this fiscal year. Some of them are in place right now. MR. G.

MERCIER: What programs have been approved to date under the Jobs Fund? HON. M. DOLIN: The programs that have been approved to date under the Jobs Fund will be discussed when we discuss the Jobs Fund. The responsibility for monitoring and reporting to the government on the administration and so on, that kind of detail of job creation activities, is a staff responsibility within this branch. The activities of the Jobs Funds itself are within another appropriation and properly discussed there. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, we are being asked to approve an additional four persons in this particular area, whose apparent responsibility is to look at . . . HON. M. DOLIN: Point of order, there are actually two additional staff people within this. There are four people though who have been assigned to this responsibil ity. MR. G. MERCIER: Pardon me, two additional people, whose responsibiliti es are involved in the co-ordination of job creation activities including the Jobs Fund. I am asking a question as a result of that answer, what projects have been approved to date under the Jobs Fund, that these people are involved in.

The Mini ster has said they're involved with the Jobs Fund. HON. M. DOLIN: Three that I can name for the member include Careerstart; the construction of the trading facility at Red River Community College; the Rural Sewer and Water Program. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, Careerstart -the Red River Community College Project is a Capital Works Project, is it not? The Red River Community College Project is a $6 million addition to the physical plant there. HON. M. DOLIN: That's correct. MR. G. MERCIER: What involvement does this area have in that? HON. M.

DOLIN: Again, the job of the people in our department is to monitor that situation, to report back to the government on the job creation that is taking place around that particular project or any of these other particular projects. If you wish to discuss that project, it is appropriate to do so when the Min ister of Education is present during the discussion of the Jobs Fund. MR. G. MERCIER: What do they monitor to date on that project? How many jobs are going to be created? HON. M.

DOLIN: The start-up date on construction of that particular job has not occurred yet; I believe it's late April or May; it's in the late spring anyway. So there would be no report on actual job creation at this time. When the anno uncement was made of that particular project, it was indicated that the start-up date for construction was the late spring. MR. G. MERCIER: Has the contract been tendered? HON. M. DOLIN: It is not my responsibility to tender the contract on that. MR. G. MERCIER: This area is monitoring the job creation on the Jobs Fund. This is one of the projects.

I am trying to find out what they're monitoring. Has the project been awarded? HON. M. DOLIN: That question is properly asked to the Min ister of Education. The Jobs Fund co-ordinates job creation throughout the government. The $200 million is not being spent directly by the Department of Employment Services to create jobs. There is co operation and co-ordi nation th roughout this government with many projects being brought forward to create jobs for Manitobans.

Obviously, someone has to look at the overview of the entire en deavour and come up with the administration for it; to come up with the mon itoring and the reporting back to the 1447

Tuesday, 5 April, 1983 government on what the entire package is producing. That is the role of the job creation unit. MR. G. MERCIER: That's exactly what I'm trying to find out is what sort of monitoring is this department doing. The Min ister stated in her opening remarks that ". . . as the co-ordinating department for our government's $200 million Job Creation Initiative, we intend to deploy those resources with the utmost effectiveness . . . A project has been announced, and it's been announced by the Min ister of Labour coming out of the Jobs Fund. I'm asking her, has the project been tendered.

That's a pretty simple question. She made the announcement announcing the project. HON. M. DOLIN: The member obviously doesn't recall that I made that announcement in conjunction with the Minis ter of Educa tion. We both made the announcement. It was not my announcement. It was our announcement. That Min ister is responsible for the prog ram. This particular com ponent within my department, the Admin istration unit, is responsible for designing the rules, regulations, application forms, deli very mechanism and so on; all progr am administration requirements.

This is done co-operatively with the department responsible for the delivery of the program. They also establish and co-ordinate financial control and allocation procedures in conjunction with the Department of Finance and the delivery departments, a liaison between the Department of Finance as the controling authority for the monies involved, and the departments that are delivering the programs. They also consult with the Research and Planning Branch and design program-monitoring systems for all of these programs that are taking place.

They intend to maintain upda ted information on ind ividual programs and prepare cumulativ e or aggregated status reports. Obviously, it's early in the game to do that. They will assist in the design and implementation of evaluation systems of the various projects in co operation with the Research and Planning Branch. That's the job of my department.

That's quite different than the del ivery of an indi vidual program, and quest ions regarding the del ivery of an indi vidual program are correctly asked to the Min ister responsible for the del ivery of that program and that can easily be done during the Jobs Fund Estimates. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the Jobs Fraud Fund was created ostensibly to provide employment in a war on unemployment. Now, Mr. Chairman, how many jobs is this project going to create, and when are they going to be created? MR. CHAIRMAN: Does the Mi nister wish to reply? HON. M.

DOLIN: I will repeat again that the construction start-up date, if you don't count those people involved in the architectural planning, the design and so on - certainly those are jobs too -but, if you want to start with the construction date, jobs will be created related to the construction of that facility when construction begins which is in the late spring, as I have said. Other jobs will be created upon completion of the construction phase because there will be jobs created in the area of teaching.

There is also work-related training inv olved as new spaces for training in that particular field open up, and in the use of the old building which is being renovated. So there is job creation in that area as well. Obviously, these are phased in. Construction must take place first; renovation of the old building must take place. So you have construction workers at work first, and then you have professors and teachers at work, and you have people coming into the training course and going on out into the job market with their new, more saleable skills.

So job creation will take place on an ongoing basis on this particular project. It's one that is going to impact on many different sectors of the work force. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the Min ister keeps referring to the start of construction in late spring, but she doesn't know if the project is being tendered. She said in her opening remarks, ". . . We intend to deploy these resources with the utmost effectiveness towards the creation and preservation of employment within the province ...

" If that statement has been carried out then surely she would have some idea of how many jobs would be created by the expenditure of $6 million on this project, and when these jobs would be created. She would know that in advance, not down to the last hour of work, but she would have some reasonable estimate. HON. M. DOLIN: It is not my responsibility to offer the tender for that project. It is not within the responsibility of my department.

That question is more properly asked to the Min ister responsible for the delivery of the program, who is the Min ister of Education, who was with me and announced jointly that project. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, does the Min ister wish to withdraw her statement then that she is the co-ordinating department, etc? HON. M. DOLIN: Of course not, Mr. Chairman. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, you kn ow, the answers we're getting are a complete farce. This is not an unusual project. It's not an unusual Capital Works Project for any government to be involved in.

Did she not know in advance how many jobs would be created by this project? HON. M. DOLIN: If it would please the member, I'm sure that we can work out the number of projected work weeks in the construction phase of that particular project. That doesn't take into account, of course, the preplanning, the architectural work, the design work, or the impact on other parts of the work force, such as the teaching work force or the student or retraining work force.

The construction work weeks can be predicted, but what is far more important to us is to monitor it carefully and have some accurate and actual figures to come forward with as the project also goes forward. MR. G. MERCIER: The Mini ster went on in her statement to say that ". . . our efforts will be targeted 1448

Tuesday, 5 April, 1983 to those sectors of the economy and population that has been most severely been affected by unemployment ... " I would think that the construction industry is one area that has been very severely affected by unemployment. In considering other projects under the Jobs Fund will she be, through her co-ordinating department, asse ssing projects and approving them or recommending them on the basis of, I suppose is one important factor, the number of jobs that will be created. HON. M.

DOLIN: Certainly, the labour intensity of the various projects is a point of concern to us, and that is one of the major parts of the recommendations that come forward and are discussed by the Jobs Fund Comm ittee and so on. MR. G. MERCIER: Will she and her department make the final recommendation to Cabinet as to which projects are to proceed out of the Jobs Fund? HON. M. DOLIN: The Jobs Fund Commit tee makes that recommendation. MR. G. MERCIER: Will she make recommendations then from the Labour Department's perspective to the committee as a result of their assessment of the projects? HON. M.

DOLIN: As a member of that committee, certainly, I make comments and recommendations, and these are based on information gathered from my department, of course. MR. G. MERCIER: The Mini ster referred to a second project, Rural Water and Sewer Services Project. How much is that expected to cost? HON. M. DOLIN: That is a project of $1. 5 million, which is a 50 percent increase over a similar project last year, the same kind of project. MR. G. MERCIER: In which department was the similar project last year? HON. M. DOLIN: It's the Water Services Board that has responsibility for that. MR. G.

MERCIER: How much was spent under the Water Services Board in this area last year? HON. M. DOLIN: $1 million last year. MR. G. MERCIER: The total amount of $1. 5 million is included in the Jobs Fund this year? HON. M. DOLIN: That's correct. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chai rman , this is another instance of demonstrating that this is a Jobs Fraud Fund and not a new initiative. Mr. Chairman, what they have done again is pulled out of a department an ongoing program, put it in the so-called Jobs Fund, and tried to pass off to the people of Manitoba that this is a tremendous new initiative of the government.

How many jobs are expected to be created under this program? HON. M. DOLIN: First of all, the existence of the Jobs Fund in the first place has allowed this program to take place. It has been accelerated and it has been increased, the funding has been increased by 50 percent in this area. Without the Jobs Fund and the existence of the Jobs Fund, that wouldn't be happening. The number of jobs to be created under the program is determined by the take-up on the prog ram as wel l. It's an undetermined number depending on the take-up on the program. MR. G.

MERCIER: The Mini ster has no idea how many jobs will be created? HON. M. DOLIN: I have variables such as the location of the work, the size of the project, the amount of work needed to be done. As I say, the number of projects that get under way, all of these variables will vary the number of jobs, the number of work weeks created. Again, numb er of jobs created is really not an appropriate way to determine an impact. You have to look at the number of work weeks created, because there is such a wide variable available within any project for the num ber of work weeks created for each particular person on the job.

MR. G. MERCIER: Does the Min ister know where the projects will take place and when they will take place? HON. M. DOLIN: That hasn't been specified at this point. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, having just heard those answers, I return again to the Minister's statement in her opening remarks. ". . . We intend to deploy these resources with the utmost effectiveness towards the creation and preservation of employment. Our efforts will be targeted to those sectors of the economy and population that are most severely being affected by unemployment . . .

" And the Min ister doesn't know what projects will proceed, she doesn't know where they will proceed, she doesn't know how many jobs will be created, and she's made this kind of a statement to the committee. For one thing, that proves that this is an ongoing program that has merely been taken out of the departmental budget and included in this program, because they know this program has to be continued each year, that it is an ongoing program and they're trying, once again, to show that it's a new ini tiative when it's not. HON. M. DOLIN: Mr.

Chairman, I really feel very strongly that this entire discussion is out of order. I have said repeatedly that the appropriate time to discuss the Jobs Fund, and the projects under it, is under Appropriation 29 when the appropriate people are present to respond to the questions being asked by the members. If they wish to ask questions concerned with the way in which we are going to monitor the actual activities of the staff or the programs that we are offering and that come dir ectly under the responsi bili ty of Emp loyment 1449

Tuesday, 5 April, 1983 Services, I will be happy to answer them. Questions related to the Jobs Fund as a whole are not appropriate at this time, and I would hope that you would keep the members to the subject at hand. MR. CHAIRMAN: May I remind all the members of the committee to please confine their remarks of relevance to the item under discussion. The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, I just want to ask the Min ister a few questions about this $1. 5 million that has been announced about three weeks ago, which, I take it, is to undertake the construction and installation of sewer and/or water projects, or both, in various communities throughout the province. MR. CHAIRMAN: I just remind the members of the committee to please confine their remarks or debate on the item of the Budget under discussion, 3.(a)( 1) . MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, we're talking about an expenditure of funds for people who are monitoring and co-ordinating the program, and that's why we're going to talk about the Jobs Fund. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Springfield. MR. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. There are several opportunities in the Estimates book for wide-ranging dis cussion on the Jobs Fun d.

I understand the Minis ter, when he tabled the Estimates, made reference to the Jobs Fund and the fact that full detailed examination under Resolution 14 5 would be available to all members, and all the Min isters involved who are available at that time would be in the House to answer specific questions.

In addition, there will be situations where, such as the Rural Water Services Board, additional monies over and above that which appears in the Acquisition/ Construction of Physical Assets in the Department of Agriculture will be added from the Jobs Fund to that particular program, but it will not show up in the Acquisition/Construction of Physical Assets in the Estimates right now. There will be additional funds. I understand that several weeks ago an additional $1. 5 million was put into that specific program over and above what was in there before.

No one can expect this Min ister to be able to respond for projects which are going to add to the capital available in the Acquisition/Construction of Physical Assets in all the various departments of government. For that specific reason, the Estimates were set up this way to provide for a Jobs Fund debate. This will allow a review of all of the various construction programs that are part of the Jobs Fund.

In addition, under the Acquisition/Construction of Physical Assets within every department, members will be able in Education to ask about Red River Community College; in Agriculture to ask about Rural Water Services and exactly how the Mi nister and his programming and how the Jobs Fund Commit tee is going to appropriate the additional money that's been given. But to expect this Min ister to answer those questions is expecting a bit much, but also, Mr. Chairman, I submit it's totally out of order. No Mini ster can be expected to know those things because that's not her responsibilit y.

I suggest that any discussion of the details of what the Jobs Fund Program is doing, in terms of Acquisition/ Construction of Physical Assets or, under the Jobs Fund itself, Resolu tion 145, with somewhere in the neigh bourhood of $40 milli on-$50 mi llio n in that Appropriation, should take place under those resolution items. Any discussion on those items, in this Committee now, is definitely out of order. MR. D. ORCHARD: Hono urable Min ister , did you announce a $1.5 million fund - (Interjection) - MR.

CHAIRMAN: I'm being forced by the Member for Pembina to order him out of order because I already indicated before, under Rule 64(2), his speeches in the Comm ittee of the Whole House, must be strictly relevant to the item under discussion. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, the Mi nis ter has said we' re dis cus sing here two additional staff persons who are involved in monitoring and in the co-ordination of the Jobs Fund activities. This is the Mi nister of Labour. We're talking about employment in the Province of Manitoba and all of these questions are relevant. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Mini ster of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, on the point of order, I can see that the members of the opposition have some difficul ty, but the point is, as they know, that the Jobs Fund was announced in the Budget. It is a new item in the Estimates this year. When the Mini ster of Labour indicates that her staff will be involved in monitoring and assisting in the work of that fund, that is not inconsis tent with the position she takes that she doesn't have the detail.

One year from now, two years from now, it will be a matter of public record and she will have the kind of detail as to what projects were developed, how many were involved and so on. But at this stage, the formative stage of the Jobs Fund, that information is not available from her. It is available directly from each department where a specific project takes place. It is clearly un acceptable and out of order to demand that information from this Mini ster because it is provided in the Estimates, under different departments, and there the answers can be sought and obtained. MR. G.

MERCIER: There is money provided in other areas of the Estimates. We're talking here about expenditures of funds for at least two additional people and two existing people, whose job is to monitor the job creation projects under the Jobs Fund, and these questions are relevant. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Thompson. MR. S. ASHTON: Mr. Chairman, we discussed the same point yesterday and it seems to me that you, as Chairman, have been quite lenient with members opposite. They've been throwing editorial comments 1450

Tuesday, 5 April, 1983 like crazy on this particular matter, editorializing about the Jobs Fund, when that's clearly out of order. But for them to start asking specific questions about specific programs not within the jurisdiction of the Min ister, or to ask about the direct delivery of those programs under a

section which is specifically in regard to the monitoring and co-ordination of the Jobs Fund, is completely and absolutely out of order. I hope that not only will you rule these questions out of order, but you'll rule some of the editorializing out of order. I find it a bit hard to take sitting here, hearing the same bunch opposite that froze construction in 1977 when times were a lot better than now, now throwing editorial comments about the Jobs Fund because that's completely and utterly inconsistent. MR. CHAIRMAN: The function of the Chair is to facilitate the discussion of the budgetary item under discussion.

The Chair is trying to be as neutral as possible and that is the function of the Chair or the Chair has no business being the Chair. The speeches in the Committee of the Whole should be strictly relevent to the item or clause under discussion. The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman , attempting to stay strictly on the item that we're discussi ng, it's my perception that this is the Mini ster who is co-ordinating the monitoring of the Jobs Fund , a $200 million fund , and I assume that the Mini ster is monitoring it because the Jobs Fund, theoretically, has been introduced by this government to create employment.

What we would like to know from the Min ister, in her capacity of monitoring the Jobs Fund, we'd like to know what criterion under which the Min ister, as a member of the Jobs Fund Selection Commit tee, we'd like to know what criterion she chooses and her committee chooses, by which they will approve projects such as the $1. 5 million Sewer and Water Project, or for that matter, the $5 million construction project at Red River Community College. Specifically I'd like to ask the Min ister, is part of the decision-making process involved in the number of jobs that will be created from each project. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Does the Mini ster want to comment on that? HON. M. DOLIN: I will just tell the member that the question is appropriate under the Jobs Fund Estimates. I have outlined very carefully and in detail, the jobs of the people in my department, related to monitoring , to working with departments to design application forms and monitoring mechanisms and administrative details. I went into great detail to make sure that the members kn ew what the responsi bi lit y of the staff in my department is, in this area.

The question that is asked now does not relate to that , but rather to the determination by the committee, which is not my committee, I might add, on how job creation projects are chosen. That is appropriate under the Jobs Fund discussi on , not here. MR. D. ORCHARD: As the Min ister of Labour and Employment Services and as a member of the Selection 1451 Commi ttee for the Jobs Fund, does this Min ister offer advice on projects which could be chosen from a range of projects, no doubt available to the government?

Does the Min ister provide advice to members of the committee as to how many jobs would be created via the expenditures of funds on given projects? MR. CHAIRMAN: Does the Mini ster wish to reply? HON. M. DOLIN: Yes, I do. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, Mr. Chairman, would the Min ister mind telling us how many jobs she saw being created in the construction of the college, of the building at Red River Community College, and how many jobs she envisioned being created by the $1. 5 million Sewer and Water Project Fund, in making her recommendation to have those two projects chosen to be part of the $200 million Jobs Fund?

HON. M. DOLIN: I have already indicated to members present that I will get the projected number of work weeks, I will get that figure for the members. I don't have it here tonight. Now we are back around asking the same question again. That is purely a research item. I can get the information for you. MR. D. ORCHARD: Then are we assuming that the Mini ster had that information on the number of jobs and provided that advice, when the committee made the decision , or is this something that was figured out after you made the announcement of the project and we started to ask you how many jobs are being created? HON.

M. DOLIN: Obviously, Mr. Chairman , the labor intensity of the project is part of the background information provided by staff to that committee. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well it would seem to me, Mr. Chairman, that here's a government that has been telling the people of Manitoba that we are the saviours of the unemp loyed. We are the saviours of the unemployed because we have a $200 milli on Jobs Fund which is being monitored by the Mini ster of Labour in this department, in this line of the Estimates.

Now any government who was making those kinds of claims to the taxpayers of Manitoba, I would think would be proud, would be wanting to tell the people of Manitoba, how many jobs are being created. You wouldn't have to come here and beg and conjole to get the Min ister to give us that information. It would be something that would be up front. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please, the hour being 10 o'clock, what is the wish of the committee. Comm ittee rise. A MEMBER: Oh no, it's going to be the same editorial crap. MR. D. ORCHARD: Yeas and nays. We don't agree with the motion. Who put the motion on the floor? MR.

CHAIRMAN: Those in favour of committee rise, say aye. Those against, nay. The ayes have it.

Tuesday, 5 April, 1983 Comm ittee rise. SUPPLY - HEALT H MR. CHAIRMAN, P. Eyler: Comm ittee come to order. We are considering the Estimates of the Department of Health. Does the Min ister have some opening statements to make? HON. l. DESJARDINS: Yes, I have. Mr. Chairman, I present my departmental spending Estimates for 19 83- 84, with a mixture of pride and sobering thoughts. Pride, because I think we have started to travel along a road leading to improved health and more efficient health services for all Manitobans; sobering thoughts because the total Budget for Health is now over $1 billion.

That is a staggering sum, Mr. Chairman. The health needs of our citizens compels me to ask for permission to spend it. I wish to emphasize that it represents an increase of 11. 6 percent over last year's Budget. It contains provision for some new and expa nding programs, some changes that will mean real economies in the future, as well as some substantial economies in the present. I intend to say more about this later in my opening statement and also in the discussions that follow it.

Before I do, however, I must commend the staff of the Manitoba Health Services Commission who have worked, and continue to work so ti relessly, to help control costs in our hospitals, personal care homes and health centres where a high percentage of our Budget is spent. I also want to acknowledge the efforts of all staff members in the Department of Health who continue to provide excellent public health and preventative programs.

The staff in Continuing Care and Mental Health Programs must also be commended for the dedicated and caring manner in which they provide their services to those of our citizens who are in need of them. I must also recognize with gratitude and respect, the contributions of those devoted men and women outside government who serve in our health care institutions, community organizations and voluntary agencies. They are the backbone of the health care service. It could not function without them, and I wish to thank them for being so compassionate, industrious and dedicated to the health of Manitobans.

You will be interested to know that a num ber of important organizational changes have occurred in the Department of Health, changes that will add impetus to our goal of better health for all Manitobans. At the Manitoba Health Services Commission, Messrs. Mccaffrey and Decock, long time employees of the Commission have been designated as Associated Executive Directors to relieve my Deputy Min ister, T. R. Edwards, of the day-to-day operations of the Commission. Mr. Edwards remains the Chief Executive Officer of the Commission, as well as Vice Chairman of the Commission Board. Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to leave my text here to share the committee my pride and pleasure to be associated with the team that I have. I think it's one of the best teams in Canada. We've been very, very fortunate in recruiting the people that we've had and those that have been there for many years. I certainly want to pay respect to one person that I feel is the most dedicated, the hardest worker, and certainly one of the most efficient, if not the most efficient of all the Deputy Min isters. I'm talking about my own Deputy Minis ter, Mr. Reg Edwards, who I feel we're very fortunate to have.

As announced earlier this year, I have appointed a new seven member Commission Board. We're talking about the Manitoba Health Service Commission now. We meet every two months at a substantial saving to the Manitoba taxpayers. Dr. Jack Wiltok is now Assistant Deputy Mini ster in ch arge of Com mun ity Health Programs, in addition to being Director of the Cadham Provincial Laboratories . . . , the Provincial Diagnostic Laboratory and X-Ray Program. Under Dr.

Wilt's direction, community health programs emphasizing prevention and health education are being reexamined and restructured, so that they will offer the maximum protection to all our citizens. To help further this objective, it is our intention to promote the use of health clinics wherever possible and practical. These have the advantage of providing ready access to medical and other health related services. We pro pose to pursue a pol icy that supports those community clinics already established, while at the same time, studying the health clinic concept and its place in our spectrum of health services.

These matters and our other priorities, Gerentology and mental health, are all being assessed for our new Director of Planning and Research, Mr. David Pascoe, appointed in October of 1982. Mr. Pascoe has had many years experience in the health industry and who worked for the Manitoba Heath Services Commission in the mid 70s, will integrate long range planning for the commission and the Department of Health.

Adding a planning group which will soon be fully operational, he is preparing a five year plan to address the high priority areas I've just mentioned and to allow for the orderly growth of all programs necessary for improved delivery of health services in Manitoba. He also heads a mental health working group composed of members of the Health Mini stry and Dr. H. Prosen, head of the Department of Psychiatry, Un iversity of Manitoba. A third group under Mr.

Pascoe's direction consisting of senior members of the Department of Health and the Manitoba Health Services Commission will be examining all aspects of our Personal Care Home Program and the Continuing Care Program. The oject of this study is to recommend ways to strengthen alternatives to personal care home placement. L' Ass emblee mondiale sur le vieill iss ement, commanditee par les Nations Un ies et a laquelle j'ai eu l'hon neur de participer l'ete dernier a Vienne, en tant que delegue du Canada, donna aux participants le sens de l'urgence de la situation.

Nous en sommes revenus convaincus que nous n'avions pas de temps a perdre et qu'avec un pourcentage de plus en plus eleve de notre population agee, nous devions planifier immediatement afin de nous assurer que ces citoyens ne seront pas un fardeau pour la societe, mais qu'ils seront bel et bien en mesure d'avoir des vies actives et productrices aux niveaux social, politique et culture!, tout en preservant leur sante et leur independance. A mon retour de Vienne, j'ai engage le processus qui nous menera vers ces buts en embauchant une gerontologue provinciale. Cette derniere est Madame 1452

Tuesday, 5 April, 1983 Betty Havens, de renommee internationale dans le domaine du vieillissement. Son role est de fournir des conseils, sur la politique et les programmes a adopter, aux cadres superie urs du gouv ernement aux organismes communautaires et au public.

Pour lui permettr e d' accom plir ses taches efficacement, Madame Havens siege a plusieurs comites de travail intermin isteriels, y compris le comite sur la reforme des pensions, le comite sur le logement a caractere social, le comite qui etudie les abus envers les personnes agees et qui a pour but de presenter des elements de solution, et celui qui a comme mandat d'etudier le bien-etre des jeunes personnes handicapees dans les foyers de soins personnels.

Elle est aussi membre d'autres comites qui eximinent les programmes de mise en condition physique pour personnes agees, le transp ort pour les hand icapes moteurs et les institutions externes. Pour renforcer l'efficacite du Bureau du gerontologue provincial, des agents de liaison ont ete nommes par chacun des minis teres, des institutions pertinentes et des societes de la cour onne. La gerontolo gue provinciale peut s'adresser a l'u n OU a plusieurs de CeS agents afi n de resoudre des que stions intermin isterielles. Un exemple de cette cooperation fut la preparation de l'expose du Manitoba qui faisait

partie de !'i ntervention canadienne lors de I' Assemblee mondiale. L'i ntervention canadienne influem;;a fortement le Plan d'action international , premier resultat pratique de l'A ssemblee mondiale.

Accentuant le besoin d'eviter les "ghettos" de vieilles personnes, le Plan debute comme suit: "No s efforts en ce qui concerne la sante des personnes agees et plus particulierement les efforts que nous faisons pour mettre au point un programme de soins fondamentaux, devraient aboutir a donner aux personnes agees !'o ccasion d'a voir des vies independantes au sein de leurs families et communautes aussi longtemps que possible plutot que d'etre forcees a vivre en peripherie de la societe et de ses activites." Specifiquement, le Plan recommande que les gouvernements accentuent les programmes de soins a domicile, de garderies pour adultes, d' h6pitaux de jours et de soins occasionnels, ceux-ci etant les moyens les plus economiques et socialement rentables pour le maintien de l'i ndependance des personnes agees.

Je ne peux pas etre en desaccord avec ceci. Ce qui compte est la fa9on dont nous allons realiser ces projets. Monsieur le President, je saisis cette occasion pour dire que lorsque j'ai quitte Vienne, j'etais tier d'etre Canadien et surtout Manitobai n. lei , nous avons des programmes pour les personnes agees qui sont les meilleurs au monde. Nombre de ces programmes virent le jour durant le gouvernement Schreyer: par exemple, le programme d'assurance pour les prestations offertes dans les foyers de soins personnels et l' etablissement du Bureau des soins permanents.

En poursuivant cette politique , le gouvernement precedent a reconnu la valeur de ces programmes et je l'en telicite. Pour ma part, j'ai !'in tention de renforcer et d' ete ndre ces programmes. Je crois que le programme de soins a domicile est .la pierre angulaire de nos services aux personnes agees. Voil a pourquoi j'a i demand e des augmentatons budgetaires de 20.4 pour cent pour les soins prolonges, et de 20. 1 pour cent pour les soins a domicile. Les soins a domicile com prennent !' assistance menagere, les soins infirmi ers de garde-malades et, si necessaire, d'autres formes d'aide de nature sociale.

Ce service est ouvert a tous, mais les princi paux beneficiaires SOnt les personnes agees OU leurs familles. Sur le plan social et economique, nous savons que ces services sont rentables parce que sans eux, bien des personnes agees se retrouveraient dans des foyers de soins personnels, des hopitaux, ou a la maison sans les soins qui leur sont ncessaires. Pour vous demontrer l' efficacite economique des programmes en question, je tire quelques chiffres de l'etude Canada/Manitoba sur les soins a domicile, publiee en avril 19 82.

Le cout moyen, par mois et par personne, des soins donnes en institution-des centres d'accueil jusqu'aux hopitaux-se chiffre a 1, 184.00. Le cout des soins a domicile s'eleve a 161. 00, soit une difference de 1, 023.00 par personne et par mois. Je ne voudrais pas creer la fausse impression que ces chiffres sont la seule raison ou meme la raison principale pour !'expansion prevue dans ce domaine. Les desirs et les preferences de nos personnes agees sont de premiere importance. Elles veulent les soins a domicile parce qu'ainsi, leur in dependance est preservee. Elles prisent leur independance et nous aussi.

Notre bureau de soins prolonges collabore avec la

section des foyers de soi ns person nels de la Commission des Services de Santa afin d'etablir des Garderies pour adultes dans des foyers et dans des endroits non-institutionnels. J'ai !'int ention de demander des fonds additionnels a cette fin. Ceci permettra aux personnes agees de recevoir des soins de jour, de temps a autre. Outre le soulagement qu'ell es procurent aux famil ies, ces garderies permettent des rapports sociaux, fournissent des occasions d'e valuer les besoins sociaux et medicaux des participants.

L'augmentation sollic itee nous permettra de multiplier le nombre de foyers de soins personnels offrant ce service et de mettre en oeuvre de nouveaux programmes hors-institution. Nous croyons que les possibilit es des garderies pour adultes en tant que systeme permettant de prolonger la vie en communaute n'ont pas suffisamment ete exploitees. Nous voulons offrir ce service dans des endroits de la province ou ii n'existe pas et ou ii serait utile a un certain nombre de gens. Le logement a caractere social est un autre de nos champs d'action.

Au mois d'avril 1982, un comite interministeriel commen9a a denombrer ces unit es de logements qui pourraient fournir a leurs residents plus d'independance si de plus nombreux services de soutien s'y trouvaient. Le comite presentera son rapport plus tard dans l' annee. Nous verrons une amelioration dans nos services geriatriques par suite de !'acquisition de l' Hopital Deer Lodge le 1er avril, dans le cadre du plan quinquennal de la Commission des Services de Sante.

Avec une subvention de 30 millions du Gouvernement du Canada, destinee a des travaux de renovation, nous serons en mesure d'offrir des services de soins personnels et des soins prolonges a 400 Manitobains. 1453 Les anciens combattants auront acces en priorite a 50 lits reserves aux malades necessitant des soins intensifs dans les hopitaux communautaires et a 15 5 lits pour soins a long terme a Deer Lodge. Les coOts

Tuesday, 5 April, 1983 seront pris en charge par le Min istere des affaires des anciens combattants. Mo ns ieur le Preside nt, j'a i revu en detail nos programmes relatifs au vieillis sement. J'ai cru ban de le faire car j'aurais ate negligent si je ne vous avais pas fait part du message que j'ai re<;:u a Vienne. Je n'aurais pas ate fidele ac e message si je ne vous avais pas communique ma sincere intention d'ameliorer les programmes que nous avons actuellement et de mettre de nouveaux programmes en place, selon les besoins.

J'ai !'assurance de recevoir !'assistance du Conseil manitobain sur le vieill isse ment, conseil qui sera restructure et agrandira le nombre de ses membres. Par l'entremise de la gerontologue provinciale, le conseil assu mera la double fonction de fair e des recommandations au Minis tre et d'in former les personnes ii.gees sur les progra mmes gouvernementaux.

Nous viendrons en aide a certains organ ismes communautaires tels que la Societe manitobaine des personne s ii.gees, dont le role aupres de notr e population du troisieme age, toujours plus nombreuse, est essentiel. (English Translation) The Un ited Nations' World Assembly on Aging, which I was privileged to attend in Vienna last summer, as a Canadian delegate, inspired all participants with a sense of urgency.

We came away feeling that there was no time to lose, and were convinced that we had to begin at once to plan for a future with a growing percentage of older citizens; citizens who would not be a burden to society, but who, with their measure of health and independence, would be active contri butors to our social, political and cultural life. On my return from Vienna, I initiated the process, which will lead us towards achieving these goals, by appointing a provincial gerontologist. She is Betty Havens, who is an internationally recognized authority in the field of aging.

Her role is to give advice on policy and programs to senior government staff. community organizations and the public. To enable her to do this effectively she sits on several in ter-departmen tal com mittees including one on pension reform, one on social support housing, one to investigate abuse of the elderly and to recommend safeguards against thi s; another to consider the wellbeing of young disabled persons in personal care homes. She is also on other committees which study physical fitness programs for seniors, transportation for the mobility disabled and external agency review.

To rei nforce the effectiveness of the Office of Provincial Gerontologist, liaison officers have been appoint ed from each department of govern ment, relevant commissions and crown corporations. The Provincial Gerontologist may call on any one or a com bi nation of these officers to resolve in ter departmental issues. An example of such co-operation was the preparation of Manitoba's contribution to the Canadian Government Report to the World Assembly on Aging. Canada's inp ut had a strong inf luence on the International Plan of Action, which was the practical outcome of the World Assembly.

Emphasizing the need to steer away from "Old People Ghettos", the Plan's

preamble reads as follows: 1454 "H ealth efforts for the elderly, in particular primary health care as a strategy, should be directed at enabling the elderly to lead indepencient lives in their own families and communities for as long as possible, instead of being cut off from the activities of society." The plan specifically recommends that governments place emphasis on home care, adult day care, day hospitals and respite care as the most economically and soci allly responsi ble ways to maintain the independence of the elderly. I cannot disagree with this concept. The important thing is how we achieve it here.

Mr. Chairman, I take this opportunity to say that I left Vienna feeling proud to be a Canadian and especially a Manitoban. We have programs for the elderly in this province that are second to none in the world. Some of these were started during the Sch reyer administrations, such as the program to ensure personal care home benefits and the institution of the Office of Continuing Care. I credit the previous administration with recognizing their value and continuing them. For my part, I intend to see them strengthened and extended. I consider home care as the very cornerstone of our services to the elderly.

It is for this reason I am asking to increase our budget for continuing care services by 20.4 percent and for home care assistance by 20.1 percent. Home care, consisting of domestic assistance, nursing care or social support if required, is available to all, but it is used primarily by the elderly or their families. We know that it is socially and economically valuable because without it many older people would have to be placed in personal care homes and many more would have to stay in hospitals. Still others would be at home without adequate care.

To give you an idea of the cost effectiveness of these programs, I draw your attention to figures cited in the Canada/Manitoba Home Care Study published in April 19 82. The average cost per person per month for institutional care at all levels from hostel to acute hospital was $1,1 84.00. For home care it was $161; a difference of $1,0 23 per person per month. I don't want to leave you, Mr. Chairman, or any other member of this committee with the mistaken idea that cost savings are the only, or even the princi pal reason for expansion in this area.

The wishes and preferences of our elderly people are of paramount importance. They want home care because it preserves their independence. They value their in dependence - and so do we. Our Office of Continuing Care is working closely with the Personal Care Homes Division of the Health Services Commission to establish adult day care in personal care homes and non-institutional premises. I intend to ask for an increase in funding for this program. This will allow elderly persons to receive occasional dail y care.

Besides rel ieving strain on relatives, these centres will provide for social interaction and opportunity to evaluate the social and medical needs of the participants. The increase requested will enable us to add to the number of personal care homes offering this service and to implement new programs in non-institutional settings. We feel that the potential of Adult Day Care as a support for conti nued community living has not yet

Tuesday, 5 April, 1983 been reached. We want to expand this service to areas of the province where it doesn't yet exist and where there are people who could benefit from it. Another area of activity which we are pursuing is support services housing for elderly persons. In April 19 82, an int er-departmental commit tee began identifying housing units which could provide greater ind ependence to their occu pants if more sup port services were available. The committee will report its findings later this year.

We will see an improvement in our geriatric services as a result of Manitoba's acquisition of Deer Lodge Hospital on April 1, under the Five Year Capital Program of the Manitoba Health Services Commission. With a $30 million grant for renovation from the Government of Canada, we will be able to provide personal care and extended care to 400 Manitoba residents. Veterans will have priority access to 50 acute care beds in community hospitals and 15 5 long term beds at Deer Lodge, to be funded by the Department of Veterans' Affairs. Mr. Chairman, I have dwelt at length on our programs related to aging.

I have done this because I felt I would be irresponsible if I did not preach the message I received during my trip to Vienna and the reby communicate to this committee the depth of my concern for strengt hening our present programs and for implementing new programs commensurate with the needs. In this I have the assurance of assistance from the Manitoba Council on Aging, which will be restructured with an expanded membership. Reporting through the Provincial Gerontologist, the Council will have the dual function of advising the Min ister and of relaying information from government to senior citizens.

We will also be supp orting cer tain com mu nity organizations such as the Manitoba Society of Seniors, which perform a unique role in serving this growing sector of our population. (End of translation) Mr. Chairman, it is restating a truism if I say that one way to reduce health costs is to promote prevention. However I must add that our concern for cost must not blind us to the real value ol good preventive health services. The real value is to improve the quality of life, to give our citizens a sense of security, to protect our most valuable natural resource -the lives and well being of Manitobans.

Amongst the measure for which I will seek funds is a program to recruit and train full and part-time specialists in community medicine as a cadre of well trained medical officers of health. This is being done in co-operation with the Un iversity of Manitoba. A training program, taking account of the many changes that have occurred in public health delivery systems and the need for new progr ams to control non communicable diseases, will seek to redefine the role of med ical officers of health as a prima ry care practitioner of preventive medicine.

This role will be to oversee preventiv e health programs; to encourage better diagnostic and treatment services for chil dren and adu lts; to in crease the emphasis on nutritional services for all age groups; supervise hypertension studies and preventive health support services for the elderly. I will also be asking for funds to support a pilot program in the early detection and management of hypertension, as well as for a grant to the Winn ipeg School Division to support the audiological services offered by the Child Guidance Clinic.

The proclamation of the Manitoba Health Research Council Act on June 30, 1982 drew wide interest. Under the auspices of its Act the new Manitoba Health Research Council is chaired by Dr. Lionel Israels. Total funds for the Council in 19 82-83 included $700,000 for research grants and operating expenses. 1983 will see the Manitoba Health Research Council continue its support of researchers in the form of fellowship grants, as well as providing direct operating grants to carry out health care research in the province.

Over the next few months, the committee will be assessing the possible advantage to the public of integrating Winnipeg's Public Health Services with those of Manitoba. The city and the province share an in terest in delivering these services as efficiently and economically as possible and will jointly wave the consequences of an amalgama tion. We will im plement a new immuni zation program for the control of Hepatitis B infection using a new vaccine. We are considering an enhanced immuni zation program aimed at erradicating common childhood diseases, such as, Red Measles.

One of the most fruitful, preventive measures open to us is to improve the standards of maternal and child health. We have this year appointed a prominent Manitoba Gynaecologist and Obstetrician, Dr. J.R. Mitchell, Director of Maternal and Child Health. During the year an Advisory Council will be appointed to co-ordinate community programs. The directorate will then begin to implement some of the recommendations made last year by the community task force on Maternal and Child Health. We're also initiating a pilot study at St.

Boniface General Hospital on the feasibili ty of early discharge of mother s and newborns with homecare where necessa ry. In clu ded in the stud y is provision of homecare supports for selected patients who require prolonged antenatal hospitaliz ation. We have also implemented an antepartum outreach program to improve maternal and child health in outlying areas. Now, pregnant women from outlying areas must be transported to Winnip eg if they are suspected to be at risk. The outr each program conduc ted in co operation with the perinatal programs at the St.

Boniface Hospital and the Health Sciences Centre will allo w profe ssional staff to make on-site, in itial, investigations to identi fy those needing the refined services of a tertiary hospital. One of our most successful preventive programs is the routine PKU screening of all newborn infants. This detects a metabolic error that can have serious mental and physical consequences if untreated.

Recognizing that the unborn child can be affected if the mother herself has the disease, we are expanding this program to test mothers whose blood samples routinely come to the Cadham Provincial Laboratory where the work will be done. In mental health, another of our priorities, we are going to try to direct the shortage of psychiatrists by establishing, in co-operation with the Un iversity of Manitoba, a career residency program to encourage 1455

Tuesday, 5 April, 1983 trainees in this discipline to join Manitoba's Mental Health Service. Discussions are under way to establish a training unit at Selkirk Mental Health Centre. Also as part of the continuing development plan we are seeking approval for $6 million capital expenditure. Part of this is for new 100-bed facilities at Brandon and Selkirk Mental Health Cent res. The centres will be for those patients who cannot be treated in the community.

Before we commit for construction at the Brandon Mental Health Centre we will have looked at other alternatives such as the building of facilities juxtaposed to the Brandon General Hospital to ensure that we are not continuing to invest in a plant that ultimately should be phased out. Our plan is to work closely with community mental health organizations to provide services needed to facil itate the re-entry of mental patients in to the community. To this end we will be asking for funds for a year's cost for a community residence in Winnip eg.

The Manitoba Health Services Commission is also proce eding with cons truction of an adole scent psychiatric facility in the core area of Winnip eg. We are, of course, continuing to support the Children's Mental Health Services allied to our communi ty based service. Nous demandons aussi 18.5 pour cent d'a ug mentation pour la fondation de lu tte contra l'alcoolisme du Manitoba. Ceci est en

partie dO au fait que la Fondation doit payer les coots de fonctionnement, pour une annee entiere, de !'edifice situe au 10 31-10 41, avenue Portage, anciennement occupe par l' lns titut National Canadian pour les Aveugles. Le personnel de l'l nstitut quittera ces locaux lorsque les siens seront prets, plus tard cet ete. Entre temps, le Centre a un nouveau service d'accueil, offre un programme de residence pour hommes, et abrite le "W innip eg Youth Treatment Centre" qui peut maintenant se vanter d'un e reputation nationale.

La Fondation de lutte contra l'al coolisme a pris possession, pour un dollar, d'un edifice appartenant a lnco Metals Ltd. a Thompson. L'edifice loge les services de la Fondation pour la region nord, et un centre de readaptation pour hommes. La Fondation, en collaboration avec le Minis tere de !'Education, lancera un projet pilote traitant de l'alcool et des drogues qui s'adressera aux eleves de l'ecole primaire. Ce programme fera

partie du nouveau dossier educatit sur la sante qui sera bientot a la disposition des eleves manitobains. La Fondation a augmente ses services de traitement a Winnip eg grace a une subvention de $425,000, accordee au Projet rue Main, pour acquerir et amenager de nouveaux locaux. Ces locaux permettent au "Projet" d'admin istrer une auberge ou peuvent etre re<;:ues pour de courts sejours les personnes ivres qui auparavant passaient la nuit au Centre de detention.

Le budget d'i mmobilisation du Min istere, qui se chiffre a $6 millions, prevoit le remplacement et l'amenagement de cinq infirmaries dans le nord: a Moose Lake, Pikwitonei, Thicket Portage, ll ford et Easterville. Ces amenagements accroitront noire capacite d'offrir des services de sante de bonne qualite aux residents du Nord. Outre le projet de construction a l' hopital Deer Lodge dont les 30 millions seront payes par le gouvernement federal, la Comm ission des services de sante demand era des fonds pour pour su ivre son plan quin quennial de construction d'i nstallations medicales.

Je presenterai les details des divers projets pendant la dis cussion sur les divers point s des previsions bu dgetaires. Outre qu'ils satisferont des besoins evidents dans notre systeme de services medicaux, ces projets de construction auront aussi pour effet de stimuler l' indus trie de la construction. M. le President, je voudrais faire un retour en arriere et faire quelques commentaires au sujet de l'ampleur du budget de mon ministere. II est claire, dans mon esprit, et dans celui des personnes avec qui je travaille, que nous devons faire qu elque chos e pour ralentir les augmenta tions budgetaires.

Comme vous le constaterez en lisant les previsions, les coots attribues aux hopitaux et foyers de soins personnels se chiffrent a pres de $600 millions. Depuis quelques annees, ceux-ci augmentent a un taux moyen de i8 pour cent par anne e; mais en 19 83-84, !'augmentation se chiffre a 11 .2 pour cent. (English translation) We are also asking for an 18.5 percent increase for the Alcoholism Foundation of Manitoba. This is partly due to a full year's operating cost for the new facility at 10 31-1041 Portage Avenue, formerly the Manitoba Headquarters of the Canadian National Institute for the Blind.

CNIB personnel will leave these premises when their new qu arters are ready later this sum mer. Meanwhile, the centre is now operating a new reception unit, a residential program for men and the Winn ipeg Youth Treatment Centre, which now has a national reputation for excellence. The Alcoholism Foundation of Manitoba has also acquired a new facility in Thompson, sold by lnco Metals Ltd. for one dollar. The building houses the A.F. M. Northern Services and a men's halfway house.

The Alcoholism Founda tion of Mani toba, in co operation with the Department of Education, will also pilot a new alcohol and drug education program for elementary school children. This program has been developed as part of the new Health curriculum which will soon be available to all Manitoba students. The Foundation has expanded treatment services in Winnip eg through a grant of $425,000 to the Main Street Project for that agency to acquire and renovate a new facility.

The new building will now enable the Main Street Project to oper ate a short-term hostel and accommodate the majority of intoxic ated persons presently held overnight in the Remand Centre. Inclu ded in the Health Department's Capital Budget of $6 million is provision for replacement and upgrading of five northern nursing stations at Moose Lake, Pikwitonei, Thicket Portage, llford and Easterville. These improvements will greatly enhance our ability to deliver good public health services to residents of Northern Manitoba.

In addition to the $30 million construction program at Deer Lodge Hospital, to be paid by the Government of Canada, the Manitoba Health Services Commission will be asking for funds to continue with the five-year construction program for health facilities. I will release details of this program as we debate the specific items in the Estimates. In addition to providing needed 1456

Tuesday, 5 April, 1983 improvements to our health facilities, Mr. Chairman, these projects will also stimu late the construction industr y. I should now like to return to the beginning, Mr. Chairman, and make some general references to the size of the budget I am asking this committee to approve. It is clear to me and to all those who work with me, Mr. Chairman, that we must do something to reduce the ever-escalating costs of health. As you will see from a more detailed examination, hospital and personal care home costs are approaching $600 million.

They have been rising steadily over the past few years at an approximate rate of 18 percent per year, although the increase in 1983-84 over last year is 11 .2 percent. (End of Translation) Late last year, Mr. Chairman, the Min ister of Finance and I had a meeting with hospital board members and administrators. It was, I believe, a successful meeting. The message was very clear, no more deficits unless occasioned by some unforeseen emergency, or some commitment agreed to at the time of Budget approval, with a real effort being made to increase efficiency without jeopardizing patient care.

We called upon our in stit utions to in crease productivity and reduce cost. We made it plain that the taxpayers' purse is not a bottomless reservoir. We asked them to assume the responsibility as guardians of medicare and providers of a health service we all need and want. I asked them to involve all health workers, profes sionals, parapr ofess ionals, and nonprofessionals in their goals and plans. I emphasized that cost-containment is not ju st the result of a temporary economic recession, cost-containment is here to stay. I have said the same things to members of the Canadian Union of Public Employees.

I intend to repeat myself every time I get the chance. We must cap the well, Mr. Chairman, while at the same time providing more and better services. This is not going to be easy but it can be done. It is my hope, Mr. Chairman, that the Manitoba Medical Association and its members will be willing participants in this process. I'm looking forward to meaningful discussions with the medical profession through a consu ltative process on various issues affecting program delivery.

I have made it plain, and I do so agai n, that everyone mu st co-operate; government, hospital boards, admin istrators, the medical profession, the nursing profession, all the other health disciplines and health workers, and also the consumers. All of us must unite to promote programs that reduce the risk of ill ness, prevent disease, and promote health. Mr. Chairman, I would like to take this opportunity to comment on a matter of health that is not directly related to my department Estimates.

I refer, Sir, to the conti nuing and increasing need for donations of human organs for transplant or other humanitarian purposes after death. In this respect, it has. been my pleasure as Mini ster of Health to proclaim April 4-10, 1983 as Eye Donor Week in Manitoba. I was given a number of pledge cards for the Eye Banks of Canada. I would . like to send a number of them to the critic of the opposition and also to the Whip of our party. The pledge of eyes and other organs can also be made, as my friend from across is showing me, on his driver's licence, if you sign that on the back. I want to emphasize this.

This is meaningful. We know - (Interjection) - I beg your pardon? Everything but your liver. I don't think they accept pickled liver, I'm not sure. I do wish to be serious. I think that we all know the need of blood. I think this is something that in the past some people have been reluctant to give. It's something that will not hurt the disease, of course, and can save lives. I would like to send you some to the critic of the opposition and also to our caucus chairman and to see if we can distribute them. The need is great, Mr.

Chairman, and I urge all Manitobans also to seriously consider donating all or part of their body after death in order that others may enjoy longer, healthier and happier lives. Mr. Chairman, before I conclude, may I draw to the committee's attention the death last fall of Dr. Morley Robinson Elliot in his 83rd year. Dr. Elliot was formerly Deputy Min ister of Health of Manitoba and we honour his memory. I thank you, Mr. Chairman, for permitting me to make this opening statement, and I thank the members of this committee for listening to me. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rhineland. MR. A.

BROWN: I thank the Min ister for his opening state ment. I hope that he doe sn't expect me to remember everything that he has said. It was quite a lengthy statement, and some of the issues which he spoke of, I probably will be asking questions on, and I hope that he's going to bear with me because I don't have a copy of his statement here. I probably wouldn't be able to read it anyhow, at least parts of it, if I did have it. So the Min ister will have to bear with me when I ask some of the questions which he already answered in his opening statement.

I am pleased to see that the Min ister is quite optimistic as far as the Health Program is concerned. I share his concern with the ever increasing cost of health. The Minis ter has said that there was an 11 .6 percent increase in the Budget of the Department of Health, which brings us to the $1 billion stage for health alone. That, of course, is a very large cost. At the rate that we are going, then it's going to be about six or seven years, and we'll be at the $2 billion stage. This really is a very large concern I'm sure to all of us.

I appreciate the work that is being done with the aged, because that is one of the major problems, I suppose, that we'll be facing. It's a good problem to be facing in Manitoba where people are living longer and they have to receive more care and attention. I wonder, though, whether the Min ister would be able to give me some kind of an indication as to how many people have been panelled at the present time for personal care homes; whether that list is decreasing or whether it is increasing. These are questions which we will want to be addressing ourselves to as we go along within the Estimates. First of all, Mr.

Min ister, I would like to ask you with the changes in the SMYs - I know that you gave me some of these figu res from last year to this year in the Executive Function in 1. (a) - I wonder if the Min ister would be able . . . 1457

Tuesday, 5 April, 1983 HON. L. DESJARDINS: Excuse me, Mr. Chairman, just on a point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Min ister on a point of order. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Is the member finished his responding to the opening remarks? Is he in the line by-line at this time? MR. A. BROWN: That's right? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Oh, okay, go ahead. MR. CHAIRMAN: I believe it's cus

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-2-39b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 2nd hansardpdf 39b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	3f0c178c921d405cf74472e2597162acf6935f2e

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