Manitoba Hansard — 8 June 1993 (Sitting 78, 35th Legislature, 4th Session)

35-4-78

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 Fourth Session -Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 42 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XLII No. 78 • 1:30 p.m., TUESDAY, JUNE 8, 1993 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARREIT, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CH EEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim , Hon. EVANS,C iif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY,Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-L EIS, Judy WOWC HUK, Rosann Vacant Vacant CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin- Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur - Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Char leswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Crescentwood Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Pembina Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River Rossmere Rupertsland PARTY.

Liber al NDP NDP Liber al NDP Liber al NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liber al PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liber al PC NDP Liber al NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

3947 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, June 8, 1993 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Plohman). It complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS the Canadian Wheat Board has played a vital role in the orderly marketing of Canadian wheat, barley and other grain products since its inception in 1935; and

WHEREAS the federal Minister of Agriculture is considering removing barley from the jurisdiction of the Wheat Board; and WHER EAS this is another st ep towards dismantling the board; and

WHEREAS, as in the case with the removal of oats from the Wheat Board in 1989, there has been no consultation with the board of directors of the Wheat Board, with the 11-member advisory committee to the board or the producer s themselves; and

WHEREAS the federal minister has said that there will be no plebiscite of farmers before the announcement is made. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Manitoba Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay) to consider conducting a plebiscite of Manitoba farmers on this issue as soon as possible. * * * Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Ms. Cerilli). It complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS Manitoba has the highest rate of child poverty in the country; and

WHEREAS over 55,000 children depend upon the Children's Dental Program; and

WHEREAS several studies have pointed out the cost savings of preventative and treatment health care programs such as the Children's Dental Program; and

WHEREAS the Children's Dental Program has been in effect for 17 years and has been recognized as extremely cost-effective and critical for many families in isolated communities; and

WHEREAS the provincial government did not consult the users of the program or the providers before announcing plans to eliminate 44 of the 49 dentists, nurses and assistants providing this service; and

WHEREAS preventative health care is an essential component of health care reform. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) consider restoring the Children's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 1993-94 budget. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Cha ir person of Committees): Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to.

3948 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 8, 1993 TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Leonar d Derkach (Minis ter of Rural Development): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Annual Report 1992 for the Department of Rural Development, the Annual Report 1992 for the Manitoba Municipal Employees Benefits Board and the Annual Report 1992 for the Municipal Board. Hon. Donald Orchard (Minis ter of Health): Monsieur le president, I have, for the Legislative Assembly and my honourable friends my critics, Supplementary Information for Legislative Review 1993, Departmental Expenditure Estimates for the Alcoholism Foundation of Manitoba. *

(1335) Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery, where we have with us today members of the German Lander Parliament and Business Delegation. On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon. Also with us this afternoon, we have from the Minnedosa Collegiate twelve Grades 1 0 and 11 students under the direction of Mr. Bob Pineo. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer).

Also, from the Earl Grey School, we have twenty-six Grade 6 students under the direction of Ms. Pam Shay. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Crescentwood (Ms. Gray). On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Framework for Economic Growth Employment Creation Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier. Last year, Canadians were given a copy of a Tory theory paper called the prosperity paper, issued by Michael Wilson.

Today, Manitobans were greeted with a similar Conservative theory, a document issued by the Prem ier, a ve ry self-serving document, I might add, in terms of not dealing with some of the real and total economic challenges we are facing. It deals with partial economic challenges, but does not deal with some of the reality of what people are facing in Manitoba. It does not talk about rising social assistance and a strategy to deal with that. It does not talk about rising unemployment and a strategy to deal with that.

It does not talk about out-migration and the problem of people leaving the province of Manitoba and an action plan to deal with that, Mr. Speaker, six budgets after being elected, very reminiscent of the Michael Wilson document. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier why there is not a specific action plan in the document tabled after six budgets by the Conservative government to deal with the rising social assistance in the province, to deal with the fact that after the Premier announced his Economic Committee of Cabinet, we hav e 15 ,000 more pe ople unemployed, and to deal with the fact that now, unlike in 199 0 when 5,000 people were unemployed for six months, we have 13,000 people who are unemployed for over six months in the Manitoba economy.

What hope do we have for those people in the strategy document tabled by the Premier today? * (1340 ) Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, as usual, the Leader of the Opposition, of course, is narrowly focused on a short-term strategy. He has no long-term vision and no view of how we take Manitoba through a very difficult and very challenging process that is being faced, I might say, by countries throughout this world. Mr.

Speaker, it is a coincidence that we have guests from Germany in the gallery today, because they know full well that this challenge that faces people in terms of restructuring their economy is a worldwide challenge. It is not a challenge just for Manitoba. It is not something we have to come up with a quick fix on, that is going to see us deal with these problems within the next few months. Mr. Speaker, many of the things we are doing, of course, are paying dividends. There are 7,000 more people employed today than were employed last August in this province. That is good news.

That is not good news for New Democrats. They do not want to hear anything of that nature. Many of the comparisons show the massive progress we have made in terms of competi tiveness, where we used to be, of course, the

June 8, 1993 LEGI SLATIVE ASS EMB LY OF MAN ITOBA 3949 highest in terms of our personal income tax rates, and we are now the fourth lowest in the country comparisons all the way through the piece in which we are now the second lowest sales tax rate in the country. These are the kinds of positive things that people are looking to, as they want to have a foundation upon which to fund their investments, to base their investments on in the future. These are long-term strategies, a fra mework tha t involves all Manitobans working together.

Manitobans are not looking for the kinds of little, cute-kid quips that you see in Laurie Mustard, that you get from the Leader of the Opposition. They are looking for a long-term framework for the future growth of this province, and, Mr. Speaker, that is what we have given them. Unemplo yment Rate Government Statistics Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): The Premier forgets to tell Manitobans that Manitoba was in last place the last time economic statistics were released, of all provinces in Canada in 19 91 , and we are projected to be in seventh or eighth place in 19 92 and below the national average again in 19 93, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier: Why does his Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr.

Stefanson) send internal documents and letters, which I will table in the House, to Ottawa stating that conventional unemployment statistics for Manitoba are significantly understated, when his public relations document that he releases today does not deal with the under statement of unemployment statistics, and what is the real unemployment rate according to the government? Is it the understated statistics of his own Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism, or is it these glowing numbers the Premier released here today in the report he tabled? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier) : Mr.

Speaker, Manitoba continues to have the third lowest unemployment rate in the country. In the first five months of this year, overall, Manitoba has had the second lowest unemployment rate in all of Canada, and these factors do prevail. Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition wants to point to a year like 19 91 in which we exercised severe public sector wage restraint, a year in which we kept our spending down, as we have done consistently. This document tells about it, that we have been the third lowest in increases in spending throughout our entire period of six budgets in office.

We could do what the Leader of the Opposition preached and practised wh en he was in government, which is to simply spend taxpayers' dollars to artificially create GOP growth, because for every 3 percent of increase in spending, that increases our GOP growth by 1 percent. They practised that year after year after year. They were getting virtually no real growth in the economy. The only growth was based on public sector spending, and all that left us with was the debt, the debt that we are now having to pay interest on, Mr.

Speaker, the debt that is choking our ability to provide social services, the debt that is choking our ability to provide for health care, the debt that is choking our ability to provide for education. That is all we are left with, with that artificially fuelled GOP growth from government spending of the New Democrats. That is not the answer, Mr. Speaker. Framework for Economic Growth Interprovincial Migration Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition) : You know, it is a wonder the Premier can keep a straight face after running a deficit of $862 million last year, the highest in the history of this province, Mr.

Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Premier did not answer the question on real unemployment. [interjection] It is okay; he is too busy developing a retreat on the Children's Dental Program. He is a little agitated here this afternoon. The Premier did not answer the question about dealing with the understated unemployment according to his own letter signed by his own minister.

There is another issue in an internal document sent to the federal government that is lacking from the strategy document or theoretical document tabled by the government six budgets after they were elected, and that is the whole issue of the loss of population from Manitoba, the people leaving the province of Manitoba.

3950 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA June 8, 1993 His own government's letter states the reality of in terpro vin cial migr ation which mask s the sym ptoms of regio nal disparity. It must be considered alongside unemployment to accurately measure the abili ty of an economy to create jobs.

I would like to ask the Premier : Why has his government failed so miserably to keep people in this provi nce, and what strategy in this paper can Man itobans look to to get hope to have their careers in Manitoba and to raise their families in Manitoba with opportunity, rather than social assistance and unemployment? • (1 345) Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the mem ber knows full well that Manitoba's net interprovincial mi gr ation losses have declined steadily over the last three years.

The member knows full well that the most recent population statistics for Mani toba relea sed on January 1 , 19 93, was estimated to be 1, 099,700 persons, the highest population in the history of our province. The member knows full well, if he wants to read the statistics, that this is what they are. The fact is the information we have provided as the basis for our economic framework is realistic, that it is straigh tforward, Mr. Speaker, and that it provides us with a framework and a long-term vision of wher e this province is going.

It is not the eight-second clip that the Leader of the Opposition is so good at, but, th en, of course, that eight-second clip reflects the kind of thinking that goes into their long-term strategies. We saw what the short- term , mak e-wor k approach to government was in their office-debt, debt and more debt, and that is all we are left with. We are not left with jobs. We are not left with industrial growth . We are left with debt, and that is all we have as a legacy of the short-term thinking of New Democrats. Framework for Economic Growth Education Priorities Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr.

Speaker, the authors of this Framework for Economic Growth must have had their tongues in their cheeks when they wrote this one. On page 6 we find, quote: The immediate challenge is to identify educational spending priorities and to broaden our commitment to lifelong learning. Mr. Speaker, this government has identified its educational priorities; first of all, private education, and second of all, building better golf courses and car dealerships in Workforce 2000. I want to ask the Minister of Education and Trai ning (Mrs.

Vodrey): Did she not tell the authors of this report that the percentage of gross expenditure on education in Manitoba has declined so that we now rank ninth or eighth last year out of 1 0 provinces across Canada,

whereas under an NDP government, we were sixth, and that we are constantly 1 0 out of 1 0 in educational support for post-secondary- • (1 350) Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put her question. Hon. Gary Fllm on (Premier) : Mr. Speaker, regrettably, all we find in the questions from the member for Wolseley is her taking ever y opportunity to try and feather her own nest, because she speaks in terms of one, of course, who is always arguing that those who work in education ought to be paid more in order to impr ove the quality of education. I reject totally- Mr. Speaker: Or der, please.

Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (OpposHion House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I was waiting to make very clear what the First Minister was saying in his comments, and once again the Premier is taking the low road in not answering a question. He has broken our rules which indicate that one should not impute motives in this particu lar case. I would lik e to ask him to withd raw that inappropr iate comment made about the member for Wolseley immediately. Mr. Speaker: The honourable member does not have a point of order. I do not believe the honourable First Minister was imputing motives . • • • Mr.

Speaker: The honourable First Minister, to deal with the matter raised. Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is the member opposite is constantly trying to equate the quality of our education with how much money

June 8, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EMB LY OF MAN ITOBA 3951 we pay those who work in education, and that is wrong, wrong, wrong. The fact of the matter is we have to start judging the outcomes from our expenditures. This nation, as a proportion of its gross domestic product and on a per capita basis, spends more on education than almost any other nation in the world and does not get the results, does not get the results because that member, like every other member, wants to try and equate the value of those who work in education with how much they are paid, not with the results.

We have had some 50,000 people since May of 19 91 trained under Workforce 2000 to improve their skills so they will be better able to meet the needs of the jobs in the workforce today. That is the kind of value that we have to evaluate, not just how much we pay those who work in education. Ms. Friesen : Mr. Speaker, it is just like Estimates, the minister answering for his Minister of Education.

My question for the Minister of Education was: Did she discuss with the authors of this report her views that she presented to the Northern Economic De ve lopment Commission, that Manitoba 's shrinking revenues mean that the principal area in which this government can exercise restraint is in the college system? And restrain she has, $1 0 million out of that system- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The member has put her question. Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, we see the problem that New Democrats have when they cannot look beyond their own self-interest.

All they are talking about is how much money is paid to the people who work in education. They do nothing to try and evaluate the results of that education. They do nothing to try and evaluate the outcomes of education, and as long as they are on that track, they will never be able to prepare our students for the challenges put forward in this document and every other analysis of where the future challenges and opportunities in growth and investment in this world will be. Ms. Friesen: I do see where part of the problem is. We have a Premier wh o can only see education costs in terms of- Mr.

Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Wolseley, with your question, please. Ms. Friesen : Perhaps I should address this question to the minister since he seems intent on answering all this. Did the First Minister explain to the authors of this report the central role of the University of Manitoba in attracting research and development dollars, as reported in the Hogan report? Did he explain the impact of his cuts, his clawbacks, his 50 percent reduction to the infrastructure of universities, on the research and development future of this province? * (1 355) Mr. Fllmon: Mr.

Speaker, this is an interesting point the member for Wolseley makes. As a former university professor herself, she is arguing the cause for her own people, saying only- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Ashton: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne's 484, Citation 3, indicates very clearly a member will not be permitted by the Speaker to indulge in any reflections or to impute to any members unworthy motives for their actions. This Premier, the Leader of the party of Bob Kozminski and Arni Thorsteinson, to talk about that in this House, is despicable. The party- Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): On the same point of order, Mr. Speaker, what the Premier said, and I think everybody heard him, was to do nothing but state the facts. He did not, in any way, impugn motives on the member-[interjection] No, he did not. Mr. Speaker, the member was asking a question, certainly understood by us, and in view of asking for money for the faculties, for all the faculties, not specifically for herself, that is a statement of fact. The opposition House leader certainly did impugn motives with respect to the references he made to certain individuals.

So the very rule the House leader opposite quotes should be directed to him, and he should apologize to the House. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable opposition House leader, I indeed thank the honourable government House leader for his remarks on this matter. I am not exactly sure what was said, so I am going to take this opportunity to take this matter

3952 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 8, 1993 under advisement. I will peruse Hansard, and I will come back to the House with a ruling. *** Mr. Speaker: The honourable First Minister, to finish his response. Mr. Fllm on : Mr. Speaker, with respect to investments in capital, during the past five years, this government has put more money into the capital of the universities than any previous government in the history of this province, so let her not try and make an issue with that.

Go and look at the figures and you will find out that this government has put more into capital, because your government, when it was here in office in the '80s, stripped all the capital out of it. So for the last five years we have been repairing the steam tunnels. We have been repairing the buildings. We have been adding to all of the infrastructure in those universities, Mr. Speaker, and that is the truth. Framework for Economic Growth Education Priorities Mr. Paul Edwards {Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, the document released today looks very nice and it sounds nice. Mr.

Speaker, producing these is surely one of the biggest growth industries in the province, but once you have looked through it, it becomes painfully clear that all the words are nice and the rhetoric is finely tuned, but the substance is not here in this document. Mr. Speaker, my question is for the First Minister. The fact is at page 6 the document speaks glowingly about: Skilled workers are becoming the single most important factor in production. The immediate challenge is to identify educational spending priorities and broaden our commitment. Now, Mr. Speaker, the student social allowances program was cut.

The bursary program was cut. The Advanced Education and Skills Training budget was cut. The labour adjustment branch was cut. Universities were cut. Literacy was cut. Where is the substance? What is the plan to achieve these glowing, wonderful ideals in this document? What is the plan to do it? Hon. Gary Fllmon {Premier): Mr. Speaker, the plan is to ensure that all Manitobans understand what is happening with respect to the shift from an industrial economy to an information economy, that all Manitobans understand tha t this is a fundamental sea change that has not happened in the history, perhaps, of the world.

In looking at it, Mr. Speaker, we have to do many things to put us in a competitive position. Among those things, we have to obviously have our tax load on individuals and on corporations made much more competitive. We have to ensure that information and innovation drive the economic opportunities of the future, that we identify the target-segmental areas of our economy in which the greatest opportunities will be for the future, because we cannot stop the changes that are taking place. We cannot stop the wind, Mr.

Speaker, but what we can do is prepare for the future by ensuring that we know where the opportunities lie, what our vision is of fu ture growth and econ omic development in our province, and provide for that. * (1 400) Private Sector Involvement Mr. Paul Edwards {Leader of the Second Opposition): With respect to the Premier, Mr. Speaker, I think the thousands of unemployed Manitobans do understand the world is changing and that it changes quickly, and that the global economy affects this pr ovince and the unemployment situation.

What they are looking for is some leadership in retraining and in getting them back into the workforce with dignity and without the loss of income over the long term. Now, Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Premier. He talks about a co-operative approach. He talks about bringing in the various sectors of the economy, and government cannot do it alone, and I agree. Government, he says, does not have money to do this, and I agree. My question is: Has he brought them in? What commitment has he gotten from the private sector to help him?

Have they committed dollars to this kind of retraining, because if they are not going to do it, and he is not going to do it, who is going to do it? Hon. Gary Fllm on {Premier): Mr. Speaker, during the past year, the Round Table on Environment and Economy has held at least haH of its meetings outside of the city of Winnipeg,

June 8, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 3953 throughout the province, meeting with groups and individuals at every time we did it. During the past year, the cabinet of this government has met in communities throughout the province, held its cabinet meetings in four different locations throughout our province in addition to the work we normally do. In addition, in November of this past year, the Economic Innovation and Technology Council held a major forum in Winnipeg on economic strategy for the future. It is a forum, I believe, that was attended by the member for Osborne (Mr.

Alcock) on behalf of that member's party. In February of this year, we held a meeting with respect to Total Quality Management in health care, again sponsored by the Economic Innovation and Technology Counc il that talked about opportunities not only for reforming our health care system, but getting investment in it. In March of this year, in Portage Ia Prairie, the Economic Innovation and Technology Council held an agriculture forum, getting all of agribusiness together to strategize and develop the opportunities for the future.

Of course, in April of this year, the Economic Innovation and Technology Council, along with the Department of Rural Development, held a rural development forum in Neepawa, bringing together hundreds of people to help develop the strategies. So I say to him: Yes, yes, the stakeholders are prepared to make a commitment. Yes, the stakeholders do want this kind of leadership and vision, and, yes, the stakeholders do want this kind of framework as the basis for their future actions. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, I know the Premier and the government have had many meetings and forums around the province.

I have been to some of them. They are all nicely organized, and I was at the one in Nee paw a where the First Minister flew in and blew off and flew out and did not listen to anybody, gave his speech in the morning and then took off. I was there. I have been to those meetings. Mr. Speaker, my question for the First Minister, however, is: I think Manitobans are pleased they have come out to see them, but where is the commitment from the private sector? Where are the dollars? Where is the time line for this? Where is the commitment? Our friends are here from other countries.

They have commitments from the private sector, hard commit ments, commitments for retraining programs and a co-operative approach to get people back into the workforce. My question for the Premier is: Where is the time line? Where are the dollars? Where is the commitment to co-operation, Mr. Speaker? Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, I think all Manitobans appreciate that I have responsibilities to look after. When I participate in a forum-and I have; several ministers and a large number of my caucus there for the entire day and the entire forum-1 am not expected to be in all places all the time.

Having said that, I can tell him, yes, there is a commitment from people throughout this economy to do their

part in terms of training and retraining. That is why 50,000 people have been retrained and trained through our Workforce 2000 program, courtesy of joint investment not only of the gov ernment of Manitob a but of countless employers throughout the economy. That is the kind of significant commitment we are seeing, because they believe in the process, and they believe that government can be a facilitator in helping them to ensure their employees have the skills and the knowl edge necessary to be successful in today's work world. Framework for Economic Growth Aboriginal Education Programs Mr.

Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, in reading this document titled Framework for Economic Growth, it would be interesting to see where it is filed in the library, most likely under fiction. I hope it is not submitted as a prospectus to any potential investors, because it is full of falsehoods and inaccuracies. I would like to ask the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) how he can reconcile statements in the report that aboriginal education and training have been improved and that this government has set up an improved working relationship with aboriginal people-both of those are direct quotes from this document-when they have cut New Careers, they have cut the ACCESS program, they have cut friendship centres, they have cut funding to First Nations.

3954 LEGISLATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 8, 19 93 How can he reconcile the statements in this document with the reality of cuts to education for aboriginal people? Hon. James Downey {Minister responsible for Native Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I am extremely pleased to respond to the member for Thompson. This Premier (Mr.

Almon) and this government have resolved many outstanding difficulties and claims, whether it is the Grand Rapids forebay resolve which is in the community of The Pas, where the member represents, whether it is the Split Lake community where there is a $47- million outstanding claim that has been resolved with the co-management of land. The Minister of Natural Resour ces (Mr. Enns), in many areas , has developed co-managemen t-real hard issues, taxation issues, gaming issues, leadership roles dealing with native people, something that has been long outstanding and long overdue.

That member sat as a member of his government and was unable to do any of those kinds of things. I am proud of our record , and it is accurate , what is in that document. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, if this Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) is proud of his record , that is scary. I will ask this Minister of Northern Affairs, since he wants to answer the questions instead of the Premier (Mr. Filmon)-1 guess the North is not important enough for the Premier to answer them.

I would ask the Minister of Northern Affairs: Where was he when this government cut New Careers funding, when it cut the ACCESS funding, when it cut the funding to aboriginal friendship centres and when it cut the funding to First Nations? Where was he? Mr. Downey: Mr. Speaker, I was there putting mo ney in rec rea tion prog rams thr ough the Department of Northern Affairs and the Citizenship department, 20-some additional jobs to help the northern people. I was there when we did the research and the work to put hydro into some nine communities wher e they had not seen hydro in northern Manitoba. I was there.

Where was he when his people were living in Third World conditions in northern Manitoba? That is his record. Northern Manitoba Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, the member did not answer the question in terms of education and trai ning. ' If he wants to talk about where was he, where was he when this government cut the funding in terms of job creation for the Northern Youth Corps Program, where it has cut funding in terms of capital spending in the commu nities, where it has left many commu nities now this year with no summer jobs for young people?

Where was that minister when those decisions were made, and where was the Premier (Mr. Filmon), by the way, who writes nice, glossy things in this document while northern Manitoba is going through the toughest times it has ever seen? Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern Affairs): Mr. Sp eaker, we were in trod ucin g programs for the mining sector, for the prospectors and developers, mining tax holidays for people to go and get meaningful jobs in northern Manitoba, not just depend on government and social welfare that they continue to holler for. We were doing real things for the people of northern Manitoba.

Anlshlnabe Respect Funding Mr. George Hlck es (Poin t Douglas) : Mr. Sp eaker, my qu estion is to the Mini ster of Education. I hope she will answer this question, because aboriginal people have fared very badly under this minister with all the cuts she has made to training programs for aboriginal people across Manitoba. Since Anishi nabe Respec t, which is an employment preparation progr am, has recruited 26 students who have been left in limbo since November, I want to ask the minister when the Anishinabe Respect will be getting word about their funding. Hon.

Rosemary Vodrey {Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, we are beginning the process of Advanced Education and Skills Tra ining Estimates, and I will be happy to look at the details of that during the Estimates process. * (14 1 0) -

June 8, 1993 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 3955 Anlshlnabe Respect Funding Mr. George Hlck es (Poin t Douglas): Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier because he gives a much better answer. The people have been waiti ng since Nove mb er. They ar e recruited. Their families are left in limbo. They do not know if they will take a job or not.

I would like to ask the Premier if he will ask his minis ter if she will take a visit to Anishinabe Respect, which is located on Selkirk Avenue in Winnipeg, if she will go there and meet with the staff and students, go through and see the valuable work they do, to give her a better understanding, if she will meet with them to discuss their funding proposal. Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I will take that question as notice on behalf of the Minister of Education. Literacy Programs Private sector Involvement Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, my question is also for the Minister of Education.

We have a budget in which there is a decrease in terms of literacy progr amming, training and so forth. I think it demonstrates very clearly this government's appr oach. We have a classic example of a lot of fluff the government has introduced earlier today, Mr. Speaker. My question to the Minister of Education is: On the one hand we see fluff, then we look to the province of New Brunswick, and they have a creative idea that includes the private sector getting involved in terms of trai ning, getting individuals involved in community programs to make them more literate.

My question to the Minister of Education is: Will the Minister of Education ma ke a commitment today to seek co-operation from the pr ivate industry to ensure that we do have a literacy program that will get Manitobans back into the workforce? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, as that member knows, the whole issue of literacy is of gr eat interest and importance to me. I chaired the task force on literacy for this province, and from that task force we did set up our Literacy Office and also our Literacy Council.

I think during the Estimates of the Department of Education and Tra ining, we will be able to talk about the total amount of program dollars which are still being funnelled into com mun ity-ba sed programs in literacy, and I think he will find that those dollars remain extre mely substantial for Manitoba. Let me also tell him, as he has spoken about partnerships with the private sector, that Workforce 2000, which was spoken about earlier today, has levered over $1 8 million from the private sector. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, it is interesting in terms of what the Mini ster of Education is saying.

In the province of New Brunswick, we get two and a half times as many people graduating from literacy programs than this partic ular government does, yet they invest approxim ately the same amount of dollars. The question quite specifically is: What is this government doing to ensure that there is a private sector involvement in literacy programming? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker , I am quite happy to go over the literacy progr amming this province does support because we have very extensive liter acy program ming. It is com munity-based progr amming.

Much of it comes from the ideas of the community, and it meets with the hour s in which partici pants are actually able to take

part in literacy progr amming. I will be more than happy to speak to him about the numbers and types of literacy programs which we have in this province during the course of the Estimates, and I believe we are ready to look at Advanced Education and Skills Training beginning this afternoon. Literacy Rate Government Statistics Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, my final supplementary question is to the Minister of Education. When I had contacted the department in terms of trying to find out what the literacy rate is in the province of Manitoba, I was unsuccessful in getting any sort of response from it.

I am wondering if the Minister of Education can tell the House, what is she basing the literacy rate on in the province of Manitoba? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, as the member

3956 LEGI SLATIVE ASS EMB LY OF MAN ITOBA June 8, 1993 knows if he has kept up to date on this issue, the whole matter of percentage of literacy rate is now a matter of some discussion because the actual method of measurement has come under some discussion itself. The actual literacy rate can be measured partly through self-reporting, partly through graduation from schools and through assessment which we do with in our K- 12 section. It also comes from reporting within business, industry and labour. It also come s from scr eening which occurs in community-based progr amming. Social Polley Government Position Mr.

Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, two re ports in the last two days reveal disturbing trends in terms of the dir ection of the federal Conservative government in social policy. The Caledon Institute of Social Policy report called Setting the Record Straight, released yesterday, and Towards 2000: Eliminating Child Poverty, released today by the subcommittee on poverty of the House of Commons, both spell out the dir ection of the federal Conservative govern ment when it comes to social policy.

Those trends and directions are dismantling the social safety net and eliminating poverty by changing its definition. I would lik e to ask the Mi nister of Fa mily Services: Will he stand up for Manitobans and call on the federal government to stop eroding the social safety net in Cana da which affects, adversely, many low-income Manitobans? Will he even call on the new federal Leader of his party and ask them to change direction- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member did put his question. Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr.

Speaker, last week, I had the privilege of meeting with my cou nterparts from across the country. The major topic we talked about was income programs for unemployed people and social allowance recipien ts. There certainly is agreement that the measurement tools used by Statistics Canada and more specifically the low-income cutoffs are not an adequ ate measure to measure the income of Canadians. There was general agreement that there needs to be some refinement of the measurement tools used in that area.

Ministers from all provinces have committed themselves to working with the federal government to look at ways of enhancing both the education and training for unemployed people and also the benefits that accrue to those people. Child Poverty Rate Federal Government Initiatives Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr.

Speaker, will the Minister of Family Services write to Barbara Greene, the chair of the subcommittee on poverty, and tell her that elimin ating child poverty by changing the definition does not eliminate poverty, does not help people who are vulnerable to unemp loy men t and to cutbacks in federal program s? Will the minister encourage her instead to do something real and something concr ete to enhance the incom e, parti cularly of families with children, which is the only way to eliminate poverty amongst children by the year 2000? Hon.

Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): I would ask the member opposite to do his own co mmunication with whomever he wants to write to. We will continue to address these issues on an annual basis, as I have indicated in the past. The member has been very supportive of a number of the enhancements and reforms we have brought to the Social Allowances Program. I will maybe just take the opportunity, since he has asked the question, to mention a few of those. We do address the rates on an annual basis, and our rates are comparable to other jurisdictions in Canada.

We have consistently said that there is a di fference in the cost of livin g in Toronto, Vancouver and Winnipeg. The Statistics Canada documentation does not recogn ize that, so we would support any new measurement tools that are brought forward, and we will continue to address a number of these enhancemen ts on an annual basis. Social Assistance Employment Creation Strategy Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, it seems that this mini ster agrees with Barbara Greene and wants to redefine poverty in order to eliminate it.

June 8, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 3957 I would li ke to ask the minis ter, sinc e employment is the best way of enhancing people's income, if he will talk to his colleagues in cabinet, particularly the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ernst) , and support the proposal by the City of Winnipeg for infrastructural renewal in order to hire people who are on City of Winnipeg welfare, the 17 ,000 or 18 ,000 cases of people who are employable and who want to work. Will this minister support the proposal to get those people back to work? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): I com pletely reject the mem ber's

preamble where he is putting his own

interpretation on my words. He can cert ainly read that in Hansard for the correct version. The Minister of Urban Affairs has indicated it is an issue that is before government and one that government will be dealing with in the near future. HIV Infections Blood Transfusions Mr. Guizar Cheema (The Maples): My question is for the Minister of Health. The House of Commo ns subcommittee on blood and HI V rec ommen ded tha t the pro vinces compensate those who got the disease through their blood. Mr.

Speaker, the governmen ts of Nova Scotia, Quebec and, today, Alberta, have announced they will com pensate people who got the disease through this process. Can the Minister of Health make a commitment to make sure that people are compensated on compassionate grounds on this issue? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health) : Mr. Speaker, the Commons committee on this issue also urged that the federal government revisit their compensation package. I have indicated to the House and to those who have inquir ed that in September of this year, Ministers of Health will be discussing the issue.

I think it would be an important initiative to undertake those discussions collaborati vely with the federal government, because one of the things that we attempt to do in this nation is provide some consistency of program support from sea to sea.

The current environment where two provinces have made announcements, one to negotiate and the other one to commence negotiation in Quebec, independent of the other two provinces, tends to reinforce that you can end up with a diversity of responses and, Sir, the difficulty where we may well cr eate an envir onmen t where the federal government is left not participating in any additional compe nsation which ma y be forthcom ing, as recommended by the Commons committee. Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. Committee Changes Mr.

George Hlckes (Point Douglas): I move, seconded by the member for Wellington (Ms. Barret t), that the com position of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments be amended as follows: Wellington (Ms. Barrett) for Kild onan (Mr. Chomiak); Elmwood (Mr. Maloway) for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), for Wednesday, June 9, 19 93, for 7 p.m. Motion agreed to. Mr. Nell Gaudry (St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), that the composition of the Standing Comm ittee on Pub lic Utilities and Na tural Resources be amended as follows: Osborne (Mr. Alcock) for St. James (Mr. Edwar ds).

Motion agreed to. Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimll): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for St. Vital (Mrs. Render), that the com position of the Standing Comm ittee on Pub lic Utili ties and Natu ral Resources be amended as follows: the member for Springfield (Mr. Findlay) for the member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Prazn ik); the member for Portage (Mr. Pallister) to fill the vacant spot. Motion agreed to. ORDE RS OF THE DAY Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, if you were to canvass the House, I believe or at least I would hope you would find there is unanimous consent for me to make the following necessary adjustments to the Estimates sequence tabled on March 15 . They are to relocate the Department of Northern Affairs in the sequence so that it will be considered outside the Chamb er imme dia tely after Edu cation and Training, and delete Native Affairs. Secondly, just a minor name change, Industry, Trade and Technology to Industry, Trade and

3958 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 8, 1993 Tourism, and thirdly, add to the listto be considered outside the Chamber immediately after Allowances for Losses and Expenditures, et cetera , the items, Allowances for Salary Accruals and Emer gency Expenditures. Mr. Speaker: Is there leave of the House to alter the sequence as outlined by the honourable government House leader, and also for the name change? Some Honourable Members: Leave. Mr. Speaker: That is agreed? Okay, there is agreement. Mr. Man ness: Mr. Speaker, I would lik e to announce a number of committees.

The Standing Commi ttee on Privileges and Elections will hold public hearings to review The Freedom of Information Act on Tuesday, June 22, at 7 p.m. and Saturday, June 26, 199 3, at 10 a.m., if necessary, in Room 255 of the Legislative Building. The Sta nding Comm ittee on Economic Development will meet on Tuesday, June 15 , '93, at 10 a.m. to consider the 19 92 Annual Report of Man itoba Min eral Resources.

The Standing Comm ittee on Municip al Affairs will meet on Tuesday, June 15 , 19 93, at 10 a.m. to consider the 19 92 Annual Report of the Nor th Portage Development Corporation and the 19 92 Annual Report of The Forks Renewal Corpora tion. The Standing Committee on Economic Development will meet on Tuesday, June 15 , 19 93, at 7 p.m. to consider Bill 4 and Bill 23 in Room 255.

Next, the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources will meet on Wednesday, June 16 , '93, at 7 p.m. to consider the 19 92 Annual Report of the Ma ni toba Ha zardous Waste Corporation; the Standing Committee on Economic Development will meet on Thursday, June 17 , '93, at 1 0 a.m . to consider the 19 92 Annual Report of the Man itoba Lotte ries Foundation ; and the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources will meet on Thursday, June 17 , '93, at 1 0 a.m. to consider the 19 92 Annual Report of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation. I am wondering, Mr.

Speaker, whether or not there is a willingness to waive private members' hour and continue in Estimates today. Mr. Speaker: Is it the will of the House to waive private members' hour? Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: No. Leave is denied. Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummin gs), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be gr anted to Her Majesty with the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department Education and Trai ning; and the honourable member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) in the Chair for the Department of Health. COMMITTEE OF SUP PLY (Concurrent Sections) EDUCATION AND TRAINING Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this

section of the Comm ittee of Supply me eti ng in Room 255 will re sume consideration of the Estimates of Education and Training. When the comm ittee last sat it had been considering item 4.(a)(1 ) on page 39 of the Estimates book. * (1 430) Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin ) : Mr.

Deputy Cha irperson , under the first section, Management Services, I am interested in finding out a little bit more about The Private Vocational Schools Act that is highligh ted in a couple of places in the Supplementary Estimates as part of the activities of the Mana gemen t Ser vices in terms of administration and negotiation of federal-provincial agreem ents and training agreem ents and the private vocational schools that exist in the province in compliance with the act. Can the minister tell us how many of the pr ivate vocational schools exist in the prov in ce of Mani toba?

Are the 640 full-time equivalent students in six private religious colleges all there is or are there additional ones, and could she name each of those. Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): There are 43 private vocational schools registered in Manitoba. The member has asked them to be nam ed: the Academy of Electrology, Academy of Learning- North, Academy

June 8, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EMB LY OF MAN ITOBA 3959 of Learning-South, Advanced School of Hairstyling, CC Man itoba Driving Sc hool , CO l-C ar eer Deve lo pmen t In stitute , Cam brian Busin ess College, Canadian School of Floral Art, Classic Hai r styling Aca demy, Eu ropean School of Estheti cs, Fine-Art Barte nding School , Genie School of Electrology, H & R Block Canada Inc., Herzing Career College, Hi-Way Florists, Jacks Institute, Karen's School of Floral Design- Point of Order Mr. Plohman: If the minister wants to read them all out into the record , she can.

We know that she is quite capable of doing that but, if she wants to table them, that would be satisfactory as well. We do not need to take the time of the committee reading all of these. I thought there was far fewer than that. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. The honourable member does not have a point of order. *** Mrs. Vodrey: I am certainly more than willing to table it. The member had asked me to read them and that is what I was doing. Let me provide you a copy now and if you would make copies for the members, thank you. Mr. Plohman: Is Success commercial college one of those? Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, it is.

Mr. Plohman: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, can the minister give the committee some idea of the scope of studies offered at that institute and the number of staff at the Success commercial college? Mrs.

Vodrey: The correct name of the private vocational school is Success/Angus Business College, and it provides training in the areas of administrative secretary, legal secretary, medical secretary, private secretary, general secretary, com puter acc ounting tec hnician , busines s ad mi ni stra tion , stenograp her, clerk typist, dictaphone typist and receptionist, trave l, word processing administrator, tra vel procedures as an evening course, accounting technician as an evening course, legal secretary as an evening course, medical terminology, word-processing operator as an evening course, sales marketing, microcomputer applications, computerized office systems and legal secretary as an accelerated program .

The information regarding the number of staff is considered to be confidential information to that parti cular institution and , through our priva te vocational schools area, we simply monitor that they are in compliance with the act. Mr. Plohman: Does the de partm ent, in monitoring whether certain colleges or priva te vocational schools are in compliance with the act also keep statistics on the number of graduates from each of the colleges? If so, does she have the number for that college? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we do have that information on file.

It is to enable us to make sure that there is compliance. We have information regarding grads and enrollments. The information is not made public, because individual schools would not want to have that information made public to others in the area. Mr. Plohman: Can the minister tell us why she would honour that request or that wish? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairper son, because in the case of these schools, we do not fund those schools. We simply make sure that the schools are in compliance with the act. Mr. Plohman: What are the major features of the act where compliance is monitored by staff? • (1 440) Mrs.

Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair person, in terms of the pr ivate vocational schools and monitoring under the act, cer tificates of registrations are issued on the cale ndar year.

The regis tration process requir es a submission of an application fee; an application form signed by a commissioner of oaths; teacher declaration forms to ensure instructor qualifications comply to the minimum of the regulation, signed by a commissioner of oaths; course outlines; valid security, example, a bond to ensure consumer protection; financial statement prepared by a public accountant to ensure financial viability of the school; copies of the application, contract, certificate, diploma and all advertising materia l, sales literature, circulars, calendars and collection forms, also applica tion forms for the person or persons who act as agent, sales person or represe ntative of the school all signed by commissioner for oaths.

In the area of security, schools are required to post a secu rity for tuitions refund in the event of school closure in the amount obtained by a formula based on peak student enrollment or in the form of

3960 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA June 8, 1993 a bond from a guarantee company or a personal bond with collateral. In the area of curricu lum review, schools are required to submit a course outline for review by the Priv ate Vocational Schools Program Review Com mittee, which recom mends approval to the minister or designate who approves the course.

The comm ittee is com posed of a Man itoba government employee or employees, owners or operators of private vocational schools registered under the act, of a priv ate vocational school registered under the act, and person or persons engaged in the activity and with expertise in the area submi tted for review, example: licence hai rstylists for review of a hair stylist course. The area of admin istrative duties, the unit provides support services associated with the act and re gula tion to students, pri vate vocational schools, operators, the general public, the minister, senior admin istrators and the division.

In the area of a monitoring process, schools are moni tored by the pri vate vocational schools' admi nistration through the review of the Manitoba Gazette, urban and rural newspapers, print and audio adv ertisem ents. That has been an im por tant area in our mo ni to ring. Also, in vestigation of information from the public, screening of the registration applications, annual on-si te visi ts to all schools excluding the correspondence schools and , also, periodic student surveys.

In the area of complaint resolution the pr ivate vocational schools' administration assists both students and private vocational school operators with the resolution of a complaint if the charge is determined to be a contravention of the act or a regulati on.

The private vocational schools' admin istration designs and develops policy in response to both government and the private vocational sector and the unit staff also partici pates on comm ittees and provides liaison with major stakeholders in the public and the private sector, for exam ple, the Manitoba Trucking Association Education Committee, the National Accreditation Commission. Mr. Plohman: Ca n the minis ter give any indication of the number of violations of the act over the last year? Mrs.

Vodrey: In the area of compla ints statistics, in 19 92, the year which we have completed, there were 28 com plaints received. Of those, one compla in t was with dr awn and 27 of those complain ts were resolved. In 19 93, again we have not completed the year, ther e have been 14 complaints received, 10 complaints withdrawn and four complaints resolved. Mr. Plohman: Any charges laid on any of those? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair person, in 199 2, acting on four complaints, there was one charge. In 19 93, there have been none. Mr.

Plohman: Can the minister say whether tuition fees are monitored and regula ted in any way? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, yes, tuition fees are monitored and regulated in that they ask for appr oval to increase. Mr. Plohman: Can the minister indicate whether there are any standards among the colleges for sim ilar courses or are they allo wed to go at whatever they can justify on the basis of cost or what is the criteria? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, on pri vate vocational schools entry into business, they do set their own fee. By and large, it is set by what the market will demand.

It is a private enterprise, however. We have found that they seem to set compar able fees to other schools that offer the same type of training. Where private vocational schools wish to raise their tuition fees, we do review the tuition, and we do have the right to ask for some justification for a tuition fee which seems to be an extremely large raise, especially if perhaps they have had tuition fee increases over the immediate number of years. Mr. Plohman: Mr.

Deputy Chai rperson, again, on this ques tion , can the mi nister indi cate the com pa rative rates between the com mu nity colleges and the tuition fees charged to the pr ivate colleges? Mrs. Vodrey: The comm unity colleges are subsidized in what they offer in terms of a training progr am. So, for example, a community college fee might be $850, a private vocational college fee might be in the range of $5,000. Mr. Plohman: The minister is saying that an individual having to take the course in a pr ivate college might have to pay six times as much. • (1 450)

June 8, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 3961 Mrs. Vodrey: I am informed tha t in 19 93, students at Red River College, for example, pay approximately 8.5 percent of what is the cost of the course, wher eas students in private vocational colleges do pay a fee or a tuition more reflective of the true cost. However, with that comes the ability in many cases to take a course at an accelerated rate , sometimes, at an ongoing entry as well, as opposed to fixed entry points. Mr. Plohman: Well, obviously, the costs are much greater in the private colleges for the reason stated by the minister.

Under that circums tance, knowing that students have to put out a lot more from their own pockets to take the courses, does the mini ster have any consideration of that reality when ma king a determi nation whether to reduce the enrollment allocation for courses that are offered in private colleges, or is there any correlation between what is offered in priva te colleges and what the govern ment considers to be necessary at the community colleges? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Deputy Chair, when courses at community colleges are being considered, we do look at a number of factors, but one of the most important changes-1 know we will talk about this in the Estimates process-is that the colleges have now moved to college governance and, with the ability to now make more decisions at the local level, then the community colleges and their boards will be considering a lot of this information. What is offered by the private vocational schools, again, are market-driven courses in many ways.

Students who attend some of these pr ivate vocational schools sometimes receive sponsorship from places such as Workers Compen sation, Indian bands or Em ployment and Immigration Canada funds. Mr. Plohman: So there is public money going into these schools. The minister said there are no direct grants, but there is support for students enrolled in those schools. Mrs.

Vodrey: There is some funding available to students as they wish to pursue their course, but I think he is drawing the distinction between some of the cost of underwriting courses at the community colleges versus the private vocational schools and funding which students may access to attend a private vocational school. Mr. Plohman: I just want to ask whether the numbers of graduates or students going through the priva te vocational school system are growing vis-a-vis the community college system. Could we look at a trend over the last three years?

If the minister can provide that at the next sitting, I would certainly like to have it. She does not have to provide all that information at this time if it is not readily available. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, in terms of the pri vate vocat ional schools, in 19 90 th eir enrollments showed a decrease of 12 percent; in 19 91 , they showed an increase of 11 percent; and in 19 92, they showed an increase of 20 percent.

The substantial increase in enrollmen ts in 19 92 and '91 may be due in part to the incr ease in sponsorship programs such as the fee payer pr ogram spons ored by Emp lo ymen t and Im migr ation Ca nad a. This stems from the unempl oymen t in sur ance changes from the passive income support into the active training support. Also, we have noticed that ther e have been Manitobans in the past few years who have been seeking to upgrade their skills in a number of areas. In the community colleges, in 19 92-93, there was an increase totally of 2.3 percent; and in 19 93-94, we have an estimated decrease of 2.4 percent.

Part of that would be reflective of the changes of the Government of Canada and how they will be funding programs at the community colleges. We use that estimated number because we know that the community colleges, now with their boards of governors, may be looking to negotiate directly with the federal government for courses to be offered at the comm unity colleges. Mr. Plohman: Well, the minister did not give comparative figures. In 19 90, did she not have it, and '91 ? She started '92-93 for the community colleges, so it is not as comparative as I would like to have had it. * (1 500) Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Deputy Chair, I have the actual numbers of '91 -92, but I do not have anything to compare that with for the year previous. So what I did was I gave the member, based on three years of the co mmuni ty colleges enr oll ments, the increase for '92-93 and the decrease, which is only projected at this time because we do not know how the co mmu ni ty col leges will deal with the

3962 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 8, 1993 Government of Canada, although we understand that they will be speaking to the Government of Canada on behalf of perhaps reinstating some of those programs directly with the colleges. Mr. Plohman: Could the minister provide us with a table of the courses that have been discontinued at the comm unity colleges over the last three years, and the total number of graduates or percentage increases and decreases over the last three years for both ? She ha s given us for the private colleges.

There are a couple of years missing for the community colleges, and the total courses that have been discontin ued, the names of those courses and the number of graduates that were coming from those courses in the year prior to their discontinuance. Can we get that information at another sitting? Mrs. Vodrey: What the member has asked for is extremely detailed information, and that detailed in format ion would be avai lable throu gh our Colleges Secretariat, which is Appropriation 16 .6. Mr. Plohman: That is fine, as long as the minister knows that we want that information.

If she can have it at that time, that is fine. Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Deputy Chair, I wanted to continue with some questions on private vocational schools, and to ask the minister about the retention rates in those schools. Mrs. Vodrey: We do keep that information within the department in our private vocational schools area. I can tell the member that it does vary. It varies depending upon the industry . It tends to be very school specific. It is not information that is released because again we do not fund these schools and this information would be

part icularly valuable perhaps to their competitors. Ms. Friesen: The minister said they were school specific and industry specific where she identifies problems in retention rates. Am I correct? Mrs. Vodrey: I did not speak about proble ms. I did say that we kept statistics. The statistics are school specific, and what I said was that there seems to be a variance in the area of students withdra wing. Sometimes it is dependent upon the industry; sometimes it is dependent upon the school. Ms. Friesen: Well then, could we look at it by industry?

As I understand the minister, she is saying that there are varying retention rates in schools across different industries. Could she give us some more information on that? Where are the high retention ra tes, where are the low retention ra tes? Mrs. Vodrey: Again, that is information which we do not di sclose publicly because this is not government money which funds the schools. Therefore that information is determined to be priva te. Ms. Friesen: That is exactly why I took the more general of the two options that the min ister essentially offered, and that is to look at it by industry rat her than by school.

Again, although the minister says that there is no public funding of these institutions, I believe that many people who go to these institutions are there on some form of student loan. So indeed there is public money in these schools in quite a large way. I would think in some industries, if you are looking at CE IC money and student loan money and Workers Compensation money, there is a very large amount of public money in these. So it seems to me that looking at it over all, ma int aining the kind of priva te com pany confidentiality that the minister wishes to, I am asking about comparisons across industries.

Where are the high retention rates? Where are the low retention rates? Mrs. Vodrey: Again, we do not give out the information by industry because some industries are very small, some schools offering particu lar training to support an industry may be very small. There may only be two, for instance, and with the release of that information one school may know that it is not them, and therefore they will have a very good idea of what is happening within another school. So again it is not information which we provide publicly.

We do monitor that information as we look for the schools to comply with The Private Vocational Schools Act, however. Ms. Friesen: As I see it, there are probably about four or frve industrial areas that you could look at. Ther e is an esthetic area, driving schools, reco rdi ng, broa dc asting schools, modelling agencies and florist schools, where there might be more than one certainly. In those, for example, it would seem to me that the minister's argument that it would be betraying confidentiality does not hold.

June 8, 19 93 LEG ISLATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 3963 There are cer tainly mo re than one or two hairdressing schools, more than one or two driving schools. Is it possible to obtain the information about the uses of public money, which is essentially what these schools are doing, using student money, to give us some idea about what their retention rates are? Retention rates are an indication of the academic and professional training standards that are maintained in these schools. They are not the only ones by any means, but they are one of the ones that are measurable. Mrs.

Vodrey: It is the student s who have accessed public money; it is not the institution nor the private vocational school, which the member seems to have implied in her question. Students, having accessed that money, have a choice of where they wish to apply to take that parti cular program, and I am not sure if the member is opposed to that kind of choice which is available to students. On behalf of the schools which we are discussing at the moment, I have explained to her why we do not relea se that information. * (151 0) Ms. Friesen: It is exactly that element of student choice which does concern me.

One of the ways in which students must weigh up the kind of school which they go to or the kind of training, which indus try they are going to apply to, wou ld presumably be some element of comparison and some eleme nt of assur ance of the kin d of education which they are going to receive. So it seems to me there should be something publicly avai lable, and Estimates is one place to begin that, of the academic evaluation of these schools. One way of doing that is to look at the number of people they retain.

I think if anybody in Manitoba was intending to go to a private vocational school, particularly at the charges which are made, the $5,000 to $6,000 fees per year, one of the things that they would want to be assured of was that there was a reasonable likelihood, statistically, of their completing the course. So it seems to me useful information for exactly the reasons that the minister has suggested. (Mrs. Shir ley Ren der, Acting Depu ty Chairperson, in the Chair) Mrs.

Vodrey: On behalf of the studen ts of Manitoba, that is why we do have a pr ivate vocational schools administration act, and that is why we also provide monitoring to those schools. That is why those schools are licensed. I did go through earlier in the day how we monitor the program right through the registration process, the security, through the curriculum review process, and also the ongoing monitoring process which we do.

I did com men t, when I spoke about the monitoring process, that part of the monitoring that occurs by our Private Vocational Schools area in Education and Training is a review of the Manitoba Gazette which would then reveal if there had been any legal action. In addition, we also look at the advertisements which occur in the rural and urban newspapers.

We also monitor the prin t and the audio advertisements, and I think the member is acquainted with that, and knowing that it was because of the scrutiny of our private vocational schools area that we were able to avoid some problems and have been able to avoid some problems in the past. So that is the kind of scrutiny that is provided on behalf of students to licensed schools. Then it is up to the students to make a choice based on the information that they obtain, and they can know that the schools have passed throu gh the same process of registration and licensing and then they will make their choice. Ms.

Friesen : Madam Acting Deputy Chair person, the students then can base their choice up on the absence of legal action and the self-adverti sements of the schools involved. It seems to me that it would be advantageous for students, as well, to have a reasonable expectation that there was a high level of completion in these schools. Now, the minister is essentially saying that is part of the monitoring process. I want to confirm that. Is the retention rate of schools part of the monitoring process? At which level must the retention rates reach in order to maintain a license?

So, for example, is there any penalty involved for the schools in very high dropout rates? Mrs. Vodrey: Well, certai nly, students may check with this individual school where they are paying their money to attend to look at the attrition rate . The member asks if there is a penalty for a dropout rate . The penalty is a very dir ect one: the schools lose money. So in that regard , yes, there is a penalty that is available but it is a very

3964 LEGISLATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 8, 1993 direct one in that, again, they do not receive payment for the courses that they offer. The member is asking, it seems, for some kind of a percentage. Again, as I have explained, in some courses there may be, for instance, four people. If two of those people for some reason found it necessary to withdraw, it would appear that there was then a 50 percent dropout rate, and that in fact may not actually reflect the quality of the course that is being offered. So I would remind her that students may check with these schools.

These schools obviously want students to attend, and if students are not satisfied the schools will lose money-a very direct penalty. Ms. Friesen: Madam Acting Deputy Chair, well, yes, in a market system in education that is exactly what happens, but the role of the government, I would think, is to ensure that the public money that students are using to attend these colleges was well used and that it had a payoff in fact for the econo my as a whole and for the Man itoba community.

The minister does collect these statistics, and, yes, of course, they can be misleading when it is 50 percent of four people, but I think most reasonable people can read those statistics. They can be explained. I do not think that is really an excuse for not releasing them or for enabling students to recognize that there is an area of alarm here, that they should be asking these questions. One of the difficulties, I think, is that the students who apply to priva te vocational schools are sometimes people who have had very little experience in educational institutions.

The very idea of asking for these kinds of criteria from schools would be both threatening and probably would not even occur to most people. It seems to me that there is a role for government there which is, throu gh the students, expending a fair amount of money in this market education system. I ask the minister again. She collec ts this money, she collects the information, the statistics. Why can it not be made available on an industry basis? If the numbers are good, then we will all celebrate and say, yes, this

part icular industry is doing a good job. If the numbers are not as good, then we should be able to say to students, look, you are interested in that particular area but these are the kinds of questions one should ask. Why is that so unreasonable? Mrs. Vodrey: First of all, no excuses have been provided. That terminology is quite incorrect. (Mr. Deputy Chai rperson in the Chair) What I have provided is information for the mem ber on the process of regis tration and monitoring of our private vocational schools.

As I have said to the member, that is why we go through this process of licensing, why we go through the process of monitoring where we check the kinds of advertisements that are being made available to students against the kind of curriculum that we know is available. So we do provide that kind of check and balance which I know the member is interested in.

Also, we would assume that the private vocational schools then also want to provide realistic training at a realis tic cost; otherwise, they would not remain in business because, as I have said to the member, the very direct penalty for failing to do what they say they will do is that students will withdraw . So I am not sure how much more information I can provide her, because I have explained the process that Private Vocational Schools area goes through to assist Manitobans.

It is a process that we believe is one which does protect the interests of Manitobans, but students themselves will have the opportunity then to make choices among those places where the courses are offered. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, just to go back to an earlier question. I asked whether retention rates had any effect upon the maintenance of licences, and the minister did not answer it directly. So I just want to pose it directly, and I assume the answer is no, because the minister replied that it was essentially a market system and they would lose students.

So the answer is no, it does not affect their licence. .. (1 520) Mrs. Vodrey: The dropout rate, or the withdrawal factor, is not a factor in the actual licensing, though if we see a very high dropout rate , I am informed that certainly the Private Vocational Schools would be willing to work with that school if there seemed to be some difficulty. What would affect the holding of a licence is a failure to comply with the law. So we look at making sure that the private vocational schools are in complia nce with the act, and that is the way we

June 8, 1993 LEGISl ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 3965 assure-and I have gone through the process of what the act requires, and that is the way that schools maintain their licences. As I have said before, the dropout factor is not a factor in maintaining the licence. It may, however, be a factor in maintaining the business. Ms. Friesen: Mr.

Deputy Chai rperson, so when a situation does arrive wher e a flag is signalled for the minister, then the information, which is being denied to the public through this committee, is then forwarded to an advisory comm ittee which is concerned, which does look at overall standards? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chai rperson, let me take a moment to introduce Monika Oepkes, who is the manager of the Private Vocational Schools Administration.

If there is a very significant dropout rate at a private vocational school, that information is noted by the department and then-it is not a committee, but it is, rather, the manager of our Private Voca tional Schools Adminis tration , Monik a Oepkes, who then goes in and meets with the private vocational school and is able to decide if there is any kind of support which can be offered to assist the school. Ms. Friesen: Thank you for that clarification. It sounded as though it was the whole advisory comm ittee which would have access to this information.

Does the minister know whether an application for freedom of information on this would be successful, using just industry-wide numbers? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, some freedom of inform ation requ ests have been received and, again, a number of those requests are severed releases wher e the information if, No. 1, competitive or if, No. 2, affects a thir d party, that information is most certainly blacked out. Ms. Friesen: In the minister's view, does this information that I have been requesting here affect a thir d party ? Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, it could. It could affect the school. Ms. Friesen: Mr.

Deputy Chairper son, I have been asking for industry-wide numbers in areas where there is more than one school and certainly mo re than two scho ols. Again, this whole discussion has been conducted on that basis. So, again, could I ask the minister if a request was made for freedom of information for areas of the industry wher e there is more than one school, more than two schools, wher e there would be no mention of individual schools. Would the mi nister still consider that not available for freedom of information? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deput y Ch airper son, the member asks again another hypothetical question.

I would say to her simply, then she may have to try. Ms. Friesen: I wanted to ask a similar question about the claims of private vocational schools to employment records . Again, proceeding from the minister's basis of freedom of choice for individuals and an informed choice, one would hope, these claims of 70, 80, 60 percent success in employ ment rates are obviously one of the ways in which these schools attract students to them. What kind of monitoring is done of those claims? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, as part of the monitoring process, the pri vate vocational schools area does , wher e they see the percentages, frequently check exactly what the meaning of that percentage is to the school. Some of the questions they may ask is, is the percentage used percentage of total enrollment or is it the percentage of graduates in that parti cular course area? If it is found to appear not to be as accurate, then the pr ivate vocational schools area does ask that be changed. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chairper son, when the private vocational schools

section looks at that, is it looking for com parable numb ers across an industry, or is it simply looking at the claims of a particular school and ensuring that is written very specifically and very clearly? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, each school does its own advertising, and so we look at the individual ads of each school. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chai rperson, what does this

section do to actually verify the claims that are made? I can see that it is relatively easy to say, well, are you looking at enrollees or are you looking at graduates. When an 84 percent or a 60 percent success rate in employment is looked at, who ch ecks up on those individual empl oymen t records? How long do they cover them for? Are we looking at sort of employments three years out or two years out or one year?

3966 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA June 8, 1993 * (1 530) Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we do not check the individual employment recor ds. There is a contact made with the school. The first contact is usually by a phone call, though there may in fact be a visit. Schools will be asked to verify in writing the claim that they are making. Ms. Friesen : Have ther e ever been any complaints in this area where the minister has had the opportunity to compar e the schools' claims with the real world, the actual facts, or has there ever been an occasion where we could at least have an example of some check?

Mrs . Vod rey : Ther e have been some complain ts, as I gave the memb er figures of complain ts received. This complaint around actual employment often is one of a number of complain ts which a person might put together about a private vocational school. I am informed that on checking specifically on the area of employment rates, Education and Training has found that the schools have been honest. Ms. Friesen: I promise a couple more questions. The minister did read out a list of the number of complaints.

Could she tell us, first of all, how many involved claims of-1 cannot quite say false advertising because I have not seen the claims, but essentially the issue of whether there is an accu rate represent ation of the percentage of graduates finding employment? Second of all, could she tell us what procedures, wh at me thods her depar tmen t follo wed in essentially determining the number of graduates and over what period they were employed? Mrs.

Vodrey: In the complai nts procedure, there is a process that a person would provide name, address and phone number of the person making the complaint, name of school, course, date of the course, state the complaint, but I am informed that there never has been a single complaint around the issue of advertisement re-employment. In fact, that has been a part of other complaints that have been made. However, it has only occurred maybe twice in terms of the information that we have.

In terms of checking on that par ticula r area, as I have explained to the member, there is a direct contact with the school, sometimes a visit to the school. Then the school will have to verify in writing. They will also have to discuss exactly which statistics they are using. I am not sure if the member was asking about how a total complaint was investigated. Ms. Friesen: No. I am asking specifically about the claims of many of these schools to employment rates.

What I am understand ing is that the minister simply discusses with the school their claims and the basis-not even the basis on which they are making the claims, but simply the level of claim they are making, whether it is a percentage of graduates or numbers of people enrolled. In the event of a complaint which does involve those kinds of claims, is there no checking on the number of people who have been employed, where they have been employed, how long they have been employed? I mean, how else do you check it? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, again, as I have explained to the member, the process of checking is to check with the school exactly what statistic they are using. Is it a statistic of graduates? Is it a statistic of total enrollment, and then, does the employment actually reflect that percentage of that particular statistic?

As I have said, where it is found that it does not, wher e the schools cannot verify in writing that it does, then the schools are asked to change that particular percentage or claim that they are making, but as I have said earlier as well, we do not look at the empl oymen t records, the individual employment records of students. Ms. Friesen: So just exactly what is it that the schools are required to write to the minister that would satisfy her that X school has, over the past three years, had an 84 percent employment? Mrs.

Vodrey: What schools are required to verify in writing is the course , the number of students, the number of students who have graduated and then the numb er of stude nts who ha ve become employed. Sometimes schools do in fact provide where students have gained employment. Sometimes, as part of their advertisement, they also do that, but the information that we hav e documented at the minimum is, again, the course, the number of students graduated and the number of students who have become employed.

June 8, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 3967 Private vocational schools do focus on making people employment ready, but very few schools actually-! cannot think of any schools, if I am right, that guarantee jobs. Schools do not guarantee jobs. They do speak about an employment rate . Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chair, so essentially, the schools are not required to say where their students are working and how long they have been working there. They can simply write to the minister that X percentage are employed, and the mini ster, who is now acting upon a complaint, requires no further evidence. Mrs.

Vodrey: I am certainly informed that where we ask the schools to say where the students are employed, the schools provide that information to us. Ms. Friesen: So the minister gets a letter then saying that X graduates of our school, these are the years of their graduation, this is where they are employed, and this is how long they have been employed there. • (1 540) Mrs. Vodrey: They do not provide us information on length of employment. Ms. Friesen: Does it refer then only to existing employment, that is, people who are in jobs at the time of the receipt of the letter from the minister? Mrs.

Vodrey: It depends upon the date that the pri vate vocational schools area gives to the employer. If they ask upon graduation or if they ask as of a certain date, the schools will comply with whatever the date requi red is. Ms. Friesen: I want to look at disput e mechanisms within the schools and to ask if this is an area of mo nitoring by the depar tm ent.

Students who are in dispute over marks, teaching, conditions of the schools, a feeling that they may not have received what they had anticipated they would receive as a result of the advertising: What does a student do who has a complaint in a priva te vocational college registered under the act? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Dep uty Chair pers on, the schools themselves may have appeal mechanisms or mechanisms to deal with complaints. Some schools do; not all schools do. However, most schools do not want to lose the students, so they do provide a way to deal with the complain ts or appeals that are requi red of them.

The private vocational schools admin istration only becomes involved when there is determined to be a contravention of the act or a regulation. Ms. Friesen: When the government monitors these schools or when it has an annual inspection, is the presence or absence of dispute resolution a factor in the evaluation? For example, do you ask that question? Do you consider it the role of government to advise on the desirabil ity of having such a resolution? Mrs.

Vodrey: Under the act, specifically, it does not require schools to have the appeal mechanism, but in terms of certification under The Private Vocational Schools Act, certainly we speak about all areas of those that the school wishes to speak about. We also pr ovide adv ice and poi nts for consideration of the schools, but in this particular area, it is ultimately up to the schools how they wish to deal with the particular matter of disput e mechanisms or advice or appeals . Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chair, what proportion then of the private vocational schools do have such procedures? Mrs.

Vodrey: We do not keep those statistics, however I am informed that certainly most of the larger schools seem to have those appeal mechanisms. Ms. Friesen: Could the minister tell us what the education level is of students who are applying to the vocational schools or who are taken into the vocational schools? Mrs. Vodrey: Some of the schools require high school. Others will accept an equivalency or the GED. Some schools accept the completion of Grade 8 level. Ms. Frie sen : The mi nister spok e in her evaluation of, I think it was in the evaluation

section of these schools, the requirement for student school contracts. Is that right? Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, I did make reference in the regi stration process to the regi stration process requiring a submission of the appli cation fee, application form, and then one of the other areas I also spoke of was copies of the applic ation, contracts, certificate, dipl oma, all advertising materials, sales literatu re, circulars, calendars, and collection forms.

3968 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 8, 1993 Ms. Friesen: Would it be possible for the minister to table a specimen contract with the name of the school removed, or something that the minister considers to be average industry standard? Mrs. Vodrey: The regulations of The Private Vocational Schools Act determine what that contract should look like, and I refer the member to the act and the Regulation

Section 46(1 ), and it is page 24. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chair, I do not have a copy of that act in front of me. Could the minister tell us whether there is a cooling off period, as there is in many consumer agreements for students? Mrs. Vodrey: Under the regula tions for the signing of this particular contract, there is not a cooling -off period required. The member may have to check with the Department of Consumer and Corp orate Affairs in terms of whether or not that is the standard practice for this type of contract or, in fact, only in some other kind of sales.

But where a student decides after the signing of the contract that they would not wish to carry on with attendance at the school, the school may keep the registrat ion, but the school would be required to return all tuition. Ms. Friesen: After what period would the school return that tuition? Mrs. Vodrey: Up to completion of two-thirds of the course. Beyond two-thirds of the course, then they would not be required; then it would be prorated . What was returned would be prorated to the student. Ms.

Friesen: I think I would like to be a bit clearer on this, because I think there are a lot of students who do not know this. Maybe I should let the minister explain it aga in, but you could be, for example, in a yearlong course. You could decide after having completed two-thirds of that cour se that you are going to withdraw from that school, and that up to two- thir ds the school would refund you two-thirds of the tuition, and that for the last thir d they would refund it on a prorated basis? Maybe we could take that example of a one year to explain it. * (1 550) Mrs.

Vodrey: Let me try and make that answer a little bit more clear. In terms of the return, before a student has actually attended the program and wishes to withdraw without attending any part of the course, then the school may keep the registration fee, but the school would be requi red to return the tuition fee. When a student actually begins the program, then there is a formula which is in place in the regulations, and up to two-thirds attendance at the course, then the student would pay a prorated amount and would receive a refund on the other part of the tuition, the remaining amount of the tuition.

After two-thirds completion of the course, the student would not receive a refund. Ms. Friesen: Yes, that clarifies it, although I am still not sure that many students actually are aware of this. Certainly, with some of the cases that I have dealt with, it would have been useful for the students to have known that from the beginning. What propor tion of the total fee is the registration fee on average in these cases? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, the registration fee is 20 percent of the course cost or $1 00, whichever is the lesser. The maximum amount is $1 00. Ms. Friesen: That is by regulation, is it? Mrs.

Vodrey: That is correct. Ms. Friesen: I asked last time in this

section about untrained teachers in this industry, and I believe two of the Maritime provinces, I think it is Prince Edward Island and New Brunswick, both require in their vocational schools regula tions that teachers have some kind of trai ning. Manitoba does not have that in its act, and I believe there are a number of these industries where untrained teachers are the norm . I was wondering if the minister had any indication of the numbers on that.

What proportion of the teachers in these colleges are untrained, and does, again, that vary by industry? for example, are we looking at trucking, which we looked at last time under this appropriation, wher e there is no requirement for training at all? It is simply a particular type of driver's licence and the maintenance of a clean driving record . For example, is there a difference between that and the business colleges where training might be more of a norm ? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Deputy Chair, under the regulations of The Priva te Vocational Schools Act, a person who teaches in the private vocational school must fall into one of five categories. No. 1, they must possess a bachelor's degree from a

June 8, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 3969 university in Canada or an equivalent degree from a university outside of Canada in a subject directly related to the subject or vocation to be taught, and als o have 12 months actual occu pati onal experience in the vocation to be taught. Or they must be a gradua te of the com munity college established under The Education Administration Act or an equivalent institution outside of Manitoba in a subject directly rela ted to the subject or vocation taught, and they must have 24 months of actual occu pational experience in the vocation taught.

Or the teacher must be a graduate of a private vocational school registered under the act or a predecessor of the act, a trade or vocational school registered elsewher e in Canada or an equivalent institution outside of Canada, and have 24 months actual occupational experience in the subject or vocation taught. Or the teacher must have 36 months experience as a teacher in the subject or vocation to be taught or must have 48 months actual occu pational experience in the subject or vocation to be taught. Ms. Friesen: And none of that requires teacher training? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Deputy Chair, these have not required the Bachelor of Education degree. Ms. Friesen: Nor have they requir ed any other short courses in training the trainer. Mrs. Vodrey: The private vocational schools are advised that these courses are available for their instructors. They are not requir ed to have taken that particular course. Ms. Friesen: In the evaluation and monitoring of these schools, which this

section of the branch conducts, is there any recording of the number of staff who might have taken up such shorter training courses? Is that a criterion? Mrs. Vodrey: That is not information that we collect; however, the private vocational schools are required to submit a notarized teaching declaration. On that declaration, they then must declare exactly what are the areas of qualifications, academic and tea chin g experien ce and als o occu pational experience. With that, they also have to submit references, and those references also would include employment experience references.

Sometimes, I am infor med, in addition to providing this notarized teaching declara tion, in some cases, there is also a resume attac hed regarding each of the teachers. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chair, do we know what proportion roughly of students in pr ivate vocational schools are rece iving public assistance -for example, those which come from this minister's department, student loans? • (1 600) Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, I do have a number which is a global number because the numb er includ es not only pr ivate vocational schools, it also includes Bible colleges, schools of nur sing, aviation schools.

This particular statistic is the number of students who have collected the-and this is the Canada Student Loan. We have the numbers for the Canada Student Loan, and then we also have the numb ers for the Manitoba Student Financial Assistance. For 1992-93 school year, that global number is 2,546. Now there are awards also given to students attending other institutions such as the Universities of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Brandon University, the three community colleges.

This global number, then, is those students who have access to Canada Student Loans for institutions other than those, but excludes those students who have received Canada Student Loans to attend out of the province. I have a number again in that same global categorizati on for students attending, as I said, pr ivate vocational schools, schools of nur sing, aviation schools, and the Bible colleges and accessing the Manitoba government bursaries and loan rebates for '92-93, and that number is 1 ,079.

Then the Mani toba government grants and awards in the third area, thir d category, in the other section: 280 students is the number for 19 92-93. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chair, I thank the minister for those numbers, but they are not very helpful. I assume those are the ones that we have with us. The issue that I am looking at is the student body composition of the vocational schools, which is the line that we are looking at.

In Saskatchewan, for example, a province which is often com pared to us in edu ca tional prac tices and in popula tion composition, of the students enrolled in priv ate vocational educational schools which come under their act similar to ours, close to 40 percent-it is about 37, 38 perce nt-of those students are on student loans.

3970 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 8, 1993 So what you have is a picture of a good proportion-! do not think you can it is necessarily typical in the sense of average, but certainly a high proportion of students in those vocational schools, first of all, do not have the resources to make it on their own. Forty percent of them are on student loan. As the minister has said, there are other forms of public funding. CEI C, Workers Com pensation would add to that. Second of all, they have anywhere from a Grade 8 to a GED kind of qualification, and perhaps some of them have high school.

They are entering a system where they are required to sign a contract for which we do not know whether there is a cooling-off period or not, which is wr itte n, I presu me, in formal legal language. They are entering a system where they have to face advertisements that argue that there are 70 and 80 percent employment rates and for which the government has no standard way of verifying those numbers until there is a complaint. They are entering a system where there is no requirement and, indeed, no recording of whether their teachers have any trai ning.

It seems to me that we are looking at a large numb er of areas of vocational schools where students with less education, fewer economic resources than other post-secondary education students, are entering a system where they have relatively few protections. Now, obviously, in some industries and in some schools, there is not going to be a probl em, but in some there may.

I wonder, has the minister ever considered some kin d of con sumer instruc tion, some kind of consumer booklet which says to students, look, buyer beware; you are entering a system wher e you are essentially entering a commer cial contract and for which I would have a number of concerns? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Dep uty Ch air, we ha ve discussed a lot of information this afternoon that does act to provide a level of standard for private vocational schools and also the ongoing monitoring of private vocational schools.

In the member's question about, will there be something provided to students so that they can look at the schools, and perh aps dis cuss them with an employment counse llor, the answer is, yes, through our Manitoba Prospects, which we distributed for the first time this year.

In the next Manitoba Prospects-the circula tion is in the area of 1 00,000-we will have an area which focuses on private vocational schools, and which will help students look at some of the issues of awareness which they will need in choosing a private vocational school, and then it will provide them with some information that they may wish to continue some discussion about attendance in a pri vate vocati onal school with employmen t counse llors, or with oth er trusted friends or relatives. Ms.

Friesen: The issues that we have discussed today, the absence of information on retention rates, on graduate emplo ymen t, on disp ute resolution, on absence of teacher tra ining, on legal contracts with no cooling-off period-will all of those be included in that article? Will all of that information and concerns be shared with the employment counsellors? Mrs. Vodrey: The Manitoba Prospects

article will focus on how to go about assessing decisions regarding enrolling in a private vocational school. It is that process of decision making that I think students need to think about and also would perhaps like to have the opportu nity to discuss with people who are close to them or whose advice they rely on. I would remind the member that some of the information which she is requiring for priv ate vocational schools may not be available as well at other institutions such as our uni versities. * (1 61 0) Ms.

Friesen: I do not believe that universities advertise by their employment records, nor is there an absence of dispute resolution, nor formal ways of dealing with a variety of issues. Point of Order Mrs. Vodrey: I did say to the member that a number of schools do have dispute mechanisms and a mediation process in place. I did say to her tha t we do not keep the statistics on that. However, many schools do have, and students certainly would have the opportun ity to look into that disp ute mechani sm, as they do at the universities. Mr. Depu ty Chai rpers on : The honourable minister did not have a point of order.

June 8, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EMB LY OF MAN ITOBA 3971 *** Ms. Friesen: The point I am making, obviously the minister understands that in a public institution which is publicly accountable and wher e there is public information available through public schools and every other area of our pub lic education system, there are certain guarantees and certain standards that are understood and accepted by the public at large. The difficulty with private vocational schools is that these cannot be taken for granted. That is why I am drawing these to the minister's attention. I will look forward to seeing that

article in Manitoba Prospects, and als o, of course, looking at the circu lation of that magazine or that newspaper, which, I hope, will encourage students to look very care fully at the kind of system that they are entering into. I wanted to move on from vocational education and ask about the religious colleges. An Honourable Member: Where are they? Ms. Friesen: Still under the same line, I think. What I wanted to ask about the religious colleges is, are the grants provided under this line or are they included in the UGC, and what is the particular relationship of this

section of the department to the private religious colleges? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deput y Chair pers on, the private religious colleges do receive their funds flowing through this particular line of the Estimates process, and I believe the member 's question is: Why are they not funded through a line of the Universities Grants Commission? The reason is the UGC Act does not provide for the funding of priv ate religious colleges. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chair person, has the minister received any recent applications for new religious colleges? Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, there has been one request. Ms. Friesen: Mr.

Deputy Chai rperson, could the minister tell us wher e that request has come from , how many students it would add into the pr ivate religious college system, and is the potential for approval of that included in these Estimates? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairper son, we are still in the process of reviewing the request. We need to check with the universities regarding eligible courses. Therefore, it will not be included in the funding for '93-94. Ms. Friesen: I am making an assumption. I assume the minister does not want to name the school, but it is one outside Winnipeg.

Have there been any approaches to the minister on behalf of what is being called the Jewish campus, and is that likely to evolve into a private religious college? Mrs. Vodrey: The answer is no, no approaches. Ms. Friesen: Have there been any applications to affiliate with Brandon University? Mrs. Vodrey: The answer is no. Ms. Friesen: Before we move to pass this, wanted to ask about the reduction in the number of staff in this department. We have seen a 20 percent increase in private school vocational enrollment. We are seeing an increase or an additional application in religious college.

What are the implications of reducing the staff in this area? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, as the member knows, there has been a r ecent reorganization of the division, and th at has resu lted in the amalga mation of the Adminis trative Suppo rt function for the ACCESS programs and the former Post- Secondary Car eer Development and Adult Continuing Education branch into this new line, the Management Services bra nch. So the work again has been subsumed or has been taken on by those people who are cur rently working there.

The workload, I can say to the member, has been fully redistributed through the remaining staff of the Management Services branch and the viability of programs has not been affected. Ms. Friesen: Has there been an overall reduction in management and administrative support in this area? The minister has redistributed the work. She has redistributed the personnel, but taking the total amount of the total lists of responsibilities and looking at the number of staff who were formerly employed in that, do we have the same number? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Deputy Chair, there has been a reduction of th ree SYs in the Professional! Technical area and two in the Administrative Support area. Ms. Friesen: Were those people reassigned within the department, or are those people who were, to use the euphemism "let go," fired?

3972 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 8, 1993 Mrs. Vodrey: All five individuals whose positions have been reduced have either been redeployed within government or taken the VSIP or have resigned voluntari ly. * (1 620) Ms. Friesen: How many resigned voluntari ly? Mrs. Vodrey: One. Ms. Friesen: I ask also about the expenditures of this

section of the department. I notice there are two areas in particular where there have been large reductions, in Transportat ion and Comm unications, Transportation reduced by about 50 percent and Communications by considerably more. Again, I am looking for the impact of this on a department that does conduct annnual inspections and that presumably has a mandate that takes it through much of the southern part of the province. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Deputy Chair, the Trans portation line has been reduced due to the college governance and the travel related to college governance, and the Communications line has been reduced, again primarily due to the com muni ty col lege programs and personnel adverti sing now budgeted within the community colleges budget. Ms. Friesen: Could the minister also tell us what else has been taken out? How much has been taken out of this budget as a result of community college changes? For example, you have an increase-no, I will get to that later. Let us look at the decr eases.

The reduction in Professional Fees-pnterjection] I will come back to it. It is interesting because it is an increase in rental and maintenance. I am quite happy to ask the minister about that as well, but if we are just looking at it systematically, perhaps the reductions first and the relationship to college governance. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, there has been a reduction in all areas for the community colleges that totals up to $250,000 through this line, and it is a one-t ime nonrecurrin g. Ms. Friesen : Could the mi nister gi ve an explanation of the reduction to Professional Fees?

Is that related to community colleges? Mrs. Vodrey: The reduction in Professional Fees of $7,9 00 is related to college governance admin istration. Ms. Friesen: Does that mean that last year's $38,8 60 was enti rel y devoted to colleg e government admin istration contracts? Is it what is taken out that was the colleges', or was the entire line formerly available for colleges? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chai rperson, I am not sur e if the memb er had referred to the lin e correctly. In the '92 -93 expendi tu res the Pr ofessional Fees wer e 15 .4, not the 38. Thirty-eight is from the line above.

So the 15 .4, this year 7.5- the decrease is 7.9, and that is accou nted for by the College Governance administrati on. Ms. Friesen: Yes, Mr. Deputy Chai rperson , I thank the minister for the correction. That is right, I had not got the lines right. But the question I was asking is still the same. Does that mean that last year 15 .4 was spent entirely on College Governance contracts? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Deput y Ch airper son, the money which was not used for Professional Fees or not earm arked in the year previous for Professional Fees was money available to be used for things such as short-term contracts to help prepare us for governance. In some cases, they may have looked at details of accountabil ity as we moved into the governance process, and now we are in the governance process. Ms. Friesen: So of that 15 .4, ho w ma ny contracts were there? Who had those contracts and how were they defined? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Deputy Chai rperson, of that amount of money available, we believe that, in fact, it was not spent, that that money was not needed in that particular year. This year, we have budgeted some funds in the event that we may need to look at some additional areas this year. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chair, so $1 5,400 was estimated, but not expended. Could the minister tell us how much was expended then on that line? (Mr. Jack Reimer, Acting Deputy Chai rperson, in the Chair) Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chair, I am informed that the province has not totally closed the books for this time period, so we will need some time to provide a reconciliation for the member. I will certainly provide that information as quickly as I can. * (1 630}

June 8, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 3973 Ms. Friesen: Does the minister have enough information with her now to tell us whether it was close to $1 5,400? We are looking at a 50 percent less, or 75 percent less, or 25 percent less? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Acting Deputy Chair, I would prefer not to estimate, and I will provide the reconcilia tion for Thursday. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Acting Deputy Chair, the reason I am asking this question is, of course, that it looks like a substantial reduction . Can the minister tell us what she is estimating spending the $7,500 on?

If last year there were some problems with expenditures in the sense of overestimation, then how has that been corrected this time? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Acting Deputy Chair, in the year previous, I understand that some of that budgeted money was--we were able to do some of that work internal ly. The Department of Finance did some of the work which we thought we might have to contract out, which is why some of that money had been budgeted and not expended. In this year, we are expecting to have some expenditures in this area. It may be in the area of some technical reports.

It will be cert ainly in short-t erm contracts in the area of some technical reports. It may also be in the area of reports for computer capabilities. As the member knows, we are moving to a new program with our Student Rnancial Assistance in Manitoba, and it will require some implementation and some computer capabilities to make the adjustment. The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Reimer): Item 4.(a)(1 ) Salaries $480, 700-pass ;

(2) Other Expenditures $407, 300-pass;

(3) Advanced Education and Trai ning Assistance $1 ,679, 1 00- pass. Item 4.(

b) ACCESS Programs $9,926,000. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Acting Deputy Chair, let me take a momen t to introduce the staff of the Advanced Education and Skills Training area: Dominique Bloy, who is the assistant deputy minister of this division; Mr. Bob Gorchynski, who is the acting director of Management Services; and Mr. Earl McArthur, the acting dir ector of Labour Market Policy, Planning and Analysis, and Mr. Bruce Proctor, the co-ordinator of the ACC ESS program. As the member knows, we have gone through some restructuring and some changes of title. Ms.

Friesen: The obvious thing that leaps out at you from this page is the reduction from $1 1, 1 00 to $9,900 in this area. I wonder if we could hear the minister's defence of that, of a program which has made Manitoba renowned in the area of parti cularly aboriginal education, but not only that, and for a government that has just produced a report, which claims that of its 10 strategies, education is one of them, and another one is the close and amiable relationships that they have managed to maintain with aboriginal societies in Manitoba.

None of that seems to be fulfilled by the straightforward reduction that we see in ACCESS programs. There is a good deal that I think we shall want to discuss about ACCESS programs. There certainly are a number of members of our caucus who have some particular concerns, both regional and community concerns, that they want to raise about the ACCESS programs. But maybe we should start at the beginning. We have heard the minister many times talk about-e ssentially blame this on the federal government.

Two years ago, the federal government did withdraw from some aspects of ACCESS funding, and the minister did at that point continue the grandfathering, continue support for students in ACCESS. So I wonder if we could put that argum ent to one side. We know that the minister did take up some of the slack that the federal governm ent-her federal government, her Conservative colleagues -did drop. But, putting that on one side, the minister this year has taken $1 million or more out of ACCESS program ming. It really seems to me very inaccurate to describe this as a result of the federal government action.

Two years ago, yes. We accepted that. We understood what the minister was doing, and yet in response to every question on this she has continued to maintain that this is the fault of the federal government. Last year the minister claimed that she was stepping in to cover the actions of the federal government; this year she has not. So there has been a change in policy. * (1 640) Mrs. Vodrey: I know the member would like to not look again at the facts regarding the federal government funding, but that is a very important piece in terms of the funding for the ACCESS programs. The member will know, as I have said

3974 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANIT OBA June 8, 1993 several times, that last year this province did step in and supplemented where the federal government would not, to the amount of $1 .1 million. The province is not able to continue picking up where the federal government has not been able to support students. So this year we do look at a reduction in the area of $1. 2 million, and this year the province is not able to pick up that extra money which, in fact, we did in the year previous.

So, as I have said, quite correc tly, the reductions are primarily a result of the federal offloading relating to the funding of Status Indian students under the Post-Secondary Student Su pport Program of Indian Affair s and No rt hern Developmen t Canada, but the pro vince is co mm itted to ongoing suppo rt of this very worthwhile family of programs. I will tell the memb er that there were 71 2 continuing students in the ACCESS programs as of April 1, 19 93. So we have certainly made every effort to assist those students who are currently in the ACCESS programs. Mr. Steve Ashton {Thomps on) : Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, I also want to raise a number of concerns related to the ACCESS programs. The ACCESS programs are amon gst the best programs of their kind in the country, if not this continent. The bottom line is that there has been an extensive number of students graduate in the last number of years. In fact, I recently

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-4-78
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 4th hansardpdf 78.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
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