Manitoba Hansard — 18 March 1982 (Sitting 16A, 32nd Legislature, 1st Session)

32-1-16a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 18 March, 1982 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. D. James Walding (St. Vital): Pres enting Petitions ... Read ing and Re ceiving Petitions ... Prese nting Repo rts by Standing and Special Comm ittees . . . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Min ister of Cons u mer and Corporate Affairs. HO N. EUG ENE KO STYRA (Se ven Oa ks): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to make a Minis terial Statement.

Members are probably familiar with today's media news reports about the finan cial diffic ulties facing Sunward Holidays, Winnip eg. I wanted to inf orm me mbers that I have met with representatives of the Manitoba Travel lndusry Association who informed me of the situation facing Sunward Holidays. Sun ward Holi days, for the information of mem bers, is a wholesale tour operator which is a business - operat ing name of Teach Tours Inc.

The staff of the Depart ment of Consumer and Corporate Affairs have made contact with the pr inci pal of Sunward Holida ys to ascertain details of the com pany's financ ial situation and will be meeting with the firm tomo rrow. In addition, Sunward Holida ys is mee ting today with representatives of the Manitoba Travel Industry Association to assess the imp act of the financia l prob lems. Initia l information indi cates that up to 100 peo ple who have paid for tour packages from Sunward Holida ys may be affected.

The govern ment is con cerned with the imp act on the clients involved and is strongly urging the industry to assist those affected. I'm advised that some of the individ uals may receive compens ation from their travel agents but that others, parti cularly those who booked tours directly with Sunward, may not be in a position to recover any of the mone y advanced to the firm. As yet, we have not been able to ascertain the exact number of indivi duals involved or the total value of possib le losses.

Legislation which would enable persons affected by such bankruptcies to recover their losses had been promised in 1979 by the previous government. How ever, this commi tment was not followed through. It is the intention of the government to bri ng forward as soon as possible legislation which will establish a fund whereby persons affected by the situation such as this within the travel industry will be able to obta in com pensation. We have been advised by the travel industry that they favour this legisla tion.

We look for ward to working with them to im media tely develop sound legislation which will protect both the consu mer and the industry. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. GARY FILMON (Tuxedo): Th ank you, Mr. Speaker. Fir stly of course, I'm sure that all memb ers on this side of the House, as are me mbers on the other side of the House, concerned about this situation and the potential loss to Manitobans who had put forward deposits or amounts of mone y with the com pany in the hope of travel ling with this parti cular com pany.

I would hope that the Minister will proceed with the legislation which was left by our govern ment in the process for bei ng presented to this Sess ion of the House.

The Min ister does mention the promise of legislation that had been made in '79 and, of course, he'll know from his discussions with the Travel Indus try Association that after a series of mee tin gs over a period of time they had declined a self-regulat ing piece of legislation which had been intended. 567 Since that point in time , of course, the department under the previous govern ment had proceeded to put together the material that would allow for the intro duction of a bill this year.

I would think that this side of the House would look very favourably upon that type of legislation if the Min ister is going to be br inging it forward this Session. We would hope, of course, that the department would conti nue to work with this comp any and with the Travel Industry Association to ensure that in some way Manitobans are not sufferi ng the effects of this business fail ure and that these Man itobans can be compens ated for their losses in some way. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Min ister of He alth. HON. LAURENT DESJARD INS (St. Boniface): Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I have a statement for the House. Mr. Speaker, further to a recent report I made in this House, I would now like to inform all me mbers of the current state of negotiations with the Manitoba Medi cal Assocation. I received a letter from the President of the Mani toba Medical Association dated March 9 and a letter from the Pres ident to the memb ership of the MMA dated March 10 in which Dr. Pearson advised the mem bership that until our pri ncip les are addressed in a sincere man ner by govern ment, fee bar gai ning with MHSC is on the shelf.

On Monday, March 15, my staff received a phone call from the MMA reques ting an urgent mee ting to clarify their position with regard to the negotia ting princi ples and policies they wish to establish. On mee ting with the president and other representatives of the MMA Tuesday, March 16, I was presented with a statement attached which reads and I quote: "We have asked for this mee ting to clarify any mi s understandings of the MMA's pos ition on com pulsory binding arbitrat ion and the other collective bar gain ing policies.

We felt it ne cessary to have some face to face discussion at this poin t because of the mood of the membership at large is clearly one of im patience. Phys icians across Manitoba are tell ing us they are prepared to force the issue with job action, but before emb ark ing on a full-scale, job-act ion program, we wanted to make one fi nal atte mpt at some reconcilia tion. "Our min im um requirement is for the government to agree by a Letter of Intent that com pulsory binding

arbitration will be provided for in all future contr acts with the MMA. We can work out the details later. We also want some comm itment from the govern ment that it will introduce legisla tion at some future date to bri ng about the other colle ctive bargai ning policies. Again, a Letter of Intent would suffice. We are will ing to meet with Cabine t tomo rrow to explain any aspect of these polic ies. It must be made plain, however, that after March 17th the association is going to act.

If you have any points you would like clarified, we will endeavour to respond." Following the mee ting I wrote the President of the MMA setting out my understanding of the associa tion' s demands. My letter to Dr. Pearson is attached and it states: "Dear Dr. Pearson: When we met in my office this morni ng, the representatives of the Manitoba Medical Association stated that it would be necessary for government to agree to the association's demands in respect to compulsory binding arbitration and changes in segislation before fee negotiations for 1982-83 can begin.

From our discussion, it is my understan ding that the association is demanding that government agree in writing to the following: "I. Provision for compu lsory binding arbitration be includ ed in all future agreements between the associ ation and the Manitoba Health Services Comm ission whil e at the same time lea ving in effect legis lation which permits physicians to opt out and extra bill. "2. (

a) The Health Services Insurance Act be amended at some poin t to sti pula te that the associa tion is the sole bargai ning agent for all physicians; (

b) the comm ission shall negotiate with the association rather than me negotiate; (

c) the association should also negotiate all forms of remuneration other than fee for service based upon a request of the majority of physicians involved. "3. The Medical Act be amende d at some point to make it compu lsory for all physicians to pay MMA dues if they wish to practise medicine in Manitoba. "You advised me this morning that physicians across Manitoba are prepared to force the issue with job-action and that after March 17 the association is going to act. As you are aware, Cabine t meets every Wednesday and I would like to place the association's pr oposals before them tomorr ow, March 17.

I would, th erefore, ask you to confir m by return le tter today that my understan ding as set out above of the above association demand is correct." Late in the even ing of March 16, in response to my request, I received a letter from Dr. Pearson that gen erally confirms the state ment they've presented at our mee ting that morning with a further expansion of their demands in respect to binding arbitra tion. Dr . Pear son's letter is attached and it says: "Dear Mr.

Desjardins: In response to your letter of this date, it should be noted that you instructed the Manitoba Health Services Commission to cease fee negotiations with the MMA. As that is a point of record, only you can direct the MH SC to return to the bargai ning table. The association is demanding that your government ag ree in writing to the follo wing: "1. Pro vision for compuls ory binding arbitration to be included in all future agreements between the association and the Manitoba Gove rnment an d/or its agen cie s, for examp le, MHSC.

Such a contractual 568 clause would ensure that disputes would not lead to confrontation. While compu lsory binding arbitration could be invoked by either side, it would be used only as the last resort after all other dialogue has failed to ach ieve a sett lement. Government's appr oval in prin ciple of compuls ory bindin g arbitration does not req uire legisla tion. We recognize that the practical details of impl eme ntation must be worked out and we would co-operate with you in this regard. We acknowledge that the compu lsory bindin g arbitration must be binding on both parties.

So that this would apply to physicians, we recognize that government may desire legislation to effect the follo wing MMA polic y: "All opted-out physicians have the right to so rem ain. Those wishing to opt out of Medi care will be able to give notice prior to the start of fee negotia tions . This notice shall bind the physician to actually opt out and rem ain opted out, at least until the anni versary date of the opti ng-out notice.

Physicians entering or re-entering Manitoba or physicians enter ing practice for the first time would im mediately have the cho ice to practise in or out of the Medicare plan and to so continue until the next annual option date. "You have recently stated that the current level of opti ng out in Manitoba is not a problem. With the above arrangements, we are prepared to ensure that opti ng out is not used to circumvent compu lsory bind ing arbitra tion. Item (2) and (3) in your letter accu rately reflect the MMA's position in respect of its other coll ective bargai ning princip les.

We recognize that some tim e may be needed to introduce the req uired legislation." Mr. Speaker, I have responded to the latest demands of the Manitoba Medic al Association and attach a copy of my letter, and it reads: "Dear Dr. Pearson: This is in response to your let ters of March 9 and March 16, together with a clarifica tion of the issues raised therein during a mee ting with you in my office on Tuesday, March 16. "As promised in my letter of March 16, I pla ced the Man itoba Med ic al Ass ociation pr oposal before Cabine t on March 17.

My colle agues in Cabine t dis cussed your proposal extensively, realizing that com pulsory binding arbitration is a comp lex issue and in a si ncere effort to resolve this and related issues, Exec utive Council has set up a subcomm ittee of Cabi net to review the entire matter and report back as soon as possible. "In the meantime, Dr. Pearson, I would hope that you can accept this decision as a concrete expression of goodwi ll and that we can now have our respective bargaining teams return to mean ingful negotiations respect ing a 1982-83 fee sched ule with no restriction on either party.

I would be pleased to receive your positive response in this regard." In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I'm hopeful that the positive action taken by our government will be accepted by them as proof that we wish to resolve these matters in the spir it of goo dwill and that they will now have their bargai ning team return to mean ingful negotiations with no restrictions on either side. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Memb er for Fort Garry.

Thursday, 18 March, 1982 MR. L.R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, I wish to thank the Honour able Min ister for his state ment and advise him that it is received on this side of the Hous e with conti nuing concern and regret that the im passe which has exis ted between the two par ties, the two sid es, for the last several weeks remains at this juncture at any rate unresolved. Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that the positions of both si des have changed in the past few days if not the past two or three weeks.

The Min ister has indicated that his government is willin g to explore during the calendar year 19 82 the concept and principle of bi nd ing arbitration. The President of the Manitoba Medi cal Association for his part, in my view - if I read the exchange of communic ati ons correctly - has moved off his original position with respect to bindin g arbi tration and has modified that position to some con si derable degree. That being the case, Mr.

Speaker, if that's a fair asse ssment and judgme nt of the situation, I th ink that the average Manitoba citizen could well ask with consi derable justifica tion, why can't the two si des get into negotiation? There are princi ples involved that are compl ex; no one questions that, but there seems to be an indic ation, at least at the level of the mi nds of the two parties, that those princi ples can be explor ed and exam ined outside of the heat of debate and the heat of the negotiation arena. What everyone is hung up on - it appe ars to me at this juncture, Mr.

Speaker - is the words, the rhetoric that has been exchan ged between the two side s and I recognize that in both ins tances there has to be rhe torical compr omise so that no one is emba rrassed. Th at's part of the world we li ve in; it's a realit y and I think our pa rty acknowledges that. But the average citizen it seems to me would now be sayi ng, why can't the two sides get into negotiations, discuss the fee sched ule? If, Sir, there happened to be a fa ir ly easy and happy conclusion to those fee

schedule negotia tions, I'd be willin g to suggest to the Min ister that some of the other problems would be resolved fairly easily. In any event some of the blo ckades, some of the difficul ties, standing in the way of agreement would be removed, because there would be a sp irit gener ated out of a happ y settl ement on the fee sche dule that would make for a cli mate and an envir on ment that could resolve the other problems. So, Mr. Speaker, this party, Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition, urges the Min ister and the government to ins truct the comm ission to com mence fee

schedule negotiations with the MMA imm ediately, without delay. There are now in front of us the realities of a pos sible job acti on and work slowdown which can only reflect to the detrime nt of patient s in this pro vi nce, and that has to be the pri mary consi deration - the security and the convenience and the safety of patients. Everyth ing else is secondary to that, Mr. Speaker. I would hope the Min ister is counselling the Medical Association that job action benefit s nobody, that it won't redound to the association's benefit any more than it will redound to the patient 's benefit.

I would hope that we do not have to urge the Mini s ter further, notwithst anding the differences sti ll exist ing out ther e, to instruct the comm ission to com mence fee sched ule negotiations this afternoon if pos sible and, if not, then no later than tomorrow. If they can reach a fee

schedule agreement, Mr. 569 Speaker, some of the other problems can be mor e easily resolved. MR. DESJARDINS: I have another statement and wish to tel l you it's much shor ter, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I wish to announce the creation of a Com mi ssion of Inquir y into priva te oper ators of lotteries in Manitoba. Since the creation of legal lotteries in Mani toba in 19 70, lotteries have grown into a $10 0-m il lion yearly concern.

Desig ned to provide a source of reve nue for charitable, nonprofit organizations, lot teries have grown beyond control with the rise in participation of pr ivate oper ators who often works for the lic ensed chari ty. We have li ttle control over these priv ate ope rators and prom oters. We want to find out what percentage of lottery doll ars is going to these promo ters. Judge Gerald 0. Jewers of the County Cour t of Winnip eg will chair the Commis sion of Inquir y, it's a commi ssion of one, which we have empowered under The Manit oba Evidence Act.

Lotteries were not designed to become large busi nesses for profess ional promoters, but in some cases tha t may be wha t they have become.

The inquir y will review all operations of lottery tic kets, ticket promo ters, break open ticket supplie rs, distributors and pri nters, com mercial bin go operators, casino man agement com pan ies and casino equipm ent supply com panie s, fina ncial deal ings of profess ional promo ters as they relate to lotteries, contractural arrange ments between lic ensed char itable organizations and profess ional promo ters, and investigation of any im proprie ties or ille gal ities which may be ide ntified in the course of the inquir y. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for La Verendr ye. MR.

ROBERT (Bob) BANMAN (la Verendrye): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would lik e to at the outset thank the Min ister for the statement. I think that this side of the House has been concerned in govern ment and now on this side about the amount s of monies that are being spent on lotteries in the Pro vinc e of Manitoba.

I bel ieve, if the Mini ster has been look ing at the figur es, I th ink the one area that he refers to here, the break open lottery ticke ts, the sales have increased dramat ically in the last number of years because of a few cha nges that have been made and to that extent we welcome this type of inquir y.

I would point out to the Mini ster, however, that last year we did pass legisla tion with in this Ch amb er which al lows the Manitoba Lotteries Licensing and Gaming Comm ission to appoint auditors to go and audit any books of people that have anyth ing to do with either the selling, distri buting or retailing of lot tery ticke ts. That, I bel ieve was an essential criteria that had to be establ ishe d and he does now have the legisla tive authority to appoint accountants to do that.

I think that is one avenue that he should be pursuin g very aggressively because, as he knows, there have been many accusations of people making exorbitant profits and before that bill was passed, there was noth ing in place which al lowed us to tackle that parti cular problem. So, he does have some avenues open to him at the present time to deal with any suggestions that somebody is misusing any lot-

Thursday, 18 March, 1982 tery funds and I would urge him to appoint these type of auditors to go ahead and examine the books of people involved. Again, I repeat, the lottery busi ness, especially the break-opens, I think look ing maybe at $40 milli on worth of sales wit hin the Pro vince of Manitoba this year. It has escala ted at a phenomenal rate and we welcome any inquir y which will ensure that the public protection of the funds that are being expended is in pla ce and that these people are not abusing the funds which are involved. Mr.

Speaker, with those few words, I hope that we can move on to make sure that lottery funds are being spent properly and consistent with the goals of recreation spor t and nonpr ofit groups with in this province. MR . SPEAKER: The Honour able Min is ter of Government Services. HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Lac du Bonnet): Yes, Mr. Speaker, I wish to table an Order for Return No. 1, an order asked for by the Honour able Memb er for El mwood. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Mini ster of Eco nomic Development. HON. MURIEL SM ITH (Osborne): Mr.

Speaker, I wish to table the report of the Department of Eco nomic Dev elop ment and Tourism for the year ending March 31 , 19 81, includin g the associa ted agencies, the Manit oba Bureau of Statistics, the Manitoba Trad ing Corporat ion, the Manitoba Research Council and the Manitoba Design Institute. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Munici pal Affairs. HON. A.R. (Pete) ADAM (Ste. Rose): Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, I wish to table the Annual Report of the Co-operative Loans and Loans Guaranteed Board for the year ended March 31 and, as wel l, I wish to table the Annual Report of the Co-operative Promotion Board for the year ended March 31 , 19 81 . MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion ... Introduction of Bill s INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before we reach Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of hono urable memb ers to th ree school groups in the gal lery. We have 16 students of Gr ade 9 standing from the Red Ri ver Valle y Juni or Academy. These students are under the dir ecti on of Mr. Landry.

The school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Memb er for El mwood There are also 16 students of Gr ade 9stan ding from the Ross L. Gr ey School. These students are under the direction of Mrs. Norman and Mrs. Stewart. The school is in the constituency of the Hon ourable Memb er for Emerson. There are 12 students of Gr ade 6 standing of the Ralph Brown School under the direction of Miss Mau- 570 reen Seale. This school is in the consti tuency of the Honour able Mini ster of Consume r and Corpor ate Affairs. On behalf of all the mem bers of the Ass em bly, I wish you welcome here today.

ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Memb er for Turtle Mountai n. MR. A. BR IAN RANSOM (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, yesterday at the clo se of the question period, the Min ister of Financ e informed the Hous e of what a tremendous job that the Legisla tive Assistant to his department was doing with respect to consult a tion on federal-pro vinc ial financing arrangements and other thi ngs. We're very pleased to hear that, Mr. Speaker. I wonder if the Min ister could inf orm us with what groups or organizations his Legisla tive Assi st ant has been consulting. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Mini ster of Fi nance. HON. VIC SCHR OEDER (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, I'm again very happy to be able to begin to answer that question. Just this very morning my Legislative Assistant spent an hour-and-a-half meeti ng with the Ch amber of Com merce of Winni peg and we were again in dis cussions. I happened to be at that meeti ng as wel l, we had some discussions with respect to the state of the Manit oba economy. We had some discus sions with respect to Labour legisla tion and other matters.

My assistant has been meeting and consult ing with the Pension Commission of the Pro vince of Manit oba, with people interested in pension reform; he has been meeti ng with and discussing issues of fiscal arrangements with people in the Pro vince of Manit oba including educators. I'm sure the Memb er for Turtle Mountain is aware that my assistant hails from the education profess ion, and so, she has some connections in that area and she has been making people in that field aware of poss ible implic ations of changes in fiscal arrangeme nts between Ottawa and Manitoba.

That is an area of concern to all of us in Manitoba. That is just a begin ning of what this woman is doing for the mere sum of $200 a month and an interest in serving the public of Manitoba. I think she's doing a tremendous job and I really ap preci ate it. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, we're very pleased to hear that his Legis lative Assistant has been involved to that extent even though he didn't advise what groups with which she had been meeting concerning federal-prov incial fiscal negotiations. But si nce the honour able memb er is so extensively involved with his departments, Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Minister could inform the Hous e whether or not his Legisla tive Assistant has access to file s in his departments. MR. SCHRO EDER: Mr. Speaker, when my assistant req uests of me that she wants specific informa tion, then I do my best to provide it to her if it has some th ing to do with what she is working on. I can say, Mr. Speaker, that I have never yet denied her access to a I -

Thursday, 18 March, 1982 file to which she has requested access. I should say tha t is because she is a very sensible person and would n't request access to fi les that she's not working on. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, two days ago in response to a questi on, the Min ister of Fi nance informe d the House that he was unable to say what im pact the cutbacks by the Federal Govern ment on transfer payments would have on the reve nues to the pro vi nce.

I wonder if he could now confir m to the Hous e that the statement made by the Fi rst Mini ster in Bran don last night to the effect that the cutbacks will amount to at least $10 0 mil li on is an accu rate state ment. MR. SCHR OEDER: Mr. Speaker, I'll take that ques tion as notice, I didn't see that par ticula r state ment in the speec h. I had looked briefly at some speak ing notes and I don't recall that number. MR. RAN SOM: Mr.

Speaker, I just would inform the Minis ter of Fi nance then that his Fir st Min ister has, indeed, stated that it would be a cutback of at least $10 0 mil lion even though the Min ister could not inform the House of that two days ago. I have a further quest ion for the Min ister, Mr. Speaker, I wonde r if his department has calcu lated a real growth figur e for the economy of the prov ince for the year 19 81 , if so, would he make that avai lable to the House. MR. SCHRO EDER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I'll take the second portion of the question as notice.

With respect to the fi rst por tion, again -t he $10 0 mill ion -w e are aware that the re will be hundreds of milli ons of dolla rs of losses as a res ult of the new arrangements over the five-year period, but we are not aware specifically of the dollar amount for this current year. It is my under standing that it is the intention of the Federal Min ister of Fi nance to table the leg isla tion dealing with the new fiscal arrangements tomorrow afternoon in the Hous e of Commo ns, and we are certainly awaiting that introduction. MR. RAN SOM: Mr.

Speaker, I wonde r then, would the Min ister undertake to consult with his Fir st Mini s ter and deter mine whether or not this is an accurate statement. MR. SCHR OEDER: Certai nly, I would be quite happ y to consult with the Fir st Min ister with respect to that matter. MR. RANSOM: Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Fort Garry. M.R. SHER MAN: Mr.

Speaker, I dir ect a question to the Acting Fir st Min ister in the absence of the Fir st Min ister and ask her whether, in view of the glowing accredita tions that have been offered by the Min ister of Fin ance for the Honour able Memb er for Kildonan in her capacity as Legislative Assistant, would the Fir st Min ister consider in the best interests of the people of Manitoba making the Honou rable Memb er for Kild onan the Min ister of Fina nce, and making the Honour able Mem ber for Rossmere her Legisla tive Assistant? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Eco nomic Devel opment. MR S. SMITH: Mr.

Speaker, I'm very happy to recog nize that the memb er opposite has seen the fine qual ity, not just of one Legislative Assistant or one back bencher but indeed, of all our backbenc hers and recognizing that they could all substitute for the front bench, in fact, that is the hall mark of the co-operative style of government which we are carrying out. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mem ber for Roblin Russell. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin-R ussell): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honour able Mini s ter of Agricu ltur e. Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Mini s ter of Agricultur e or the government can offer any new information instruction or advice for the beef producers across Manitoba. We're still wai ting for the government to announce and fulfil! its well known election promise of a supp ort plan for the beef indus try in Manitoba. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honour able Min is ter of Agricultur e. 571 HON. BILL URUSKI (Interlake): Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased that the honour able member and on behalf of the Cons ervatives are now agreeing that the market system that they so wholly supp ort hasn't worked and isn't working and are prepared to have government involvement in the market syste m. Mr. Speaker, as I have indi cated before, when the plan will be brought in, it will be announced in this House and the member will be aware. I hope as soon as possi ble , Mr. Speaker. MR. McKENZIE: I thank the Honour able Min ister for that non-answer, Mr. Speaker. I wonder, Mr.

Speaker, due to the numb ers of cattle producers in the pro vince who are holding back large numb ers of their herds, their prime beef, awaiting the annou ncement by this Minister or by this government, could he advise the farmers, the beef producers in this provin ce, if his plan is goi ng to be retroactive. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I agree that the beef pro ducers in this province are in dire straits. If it wasn't for their fina glin g of the previous Beef Income Assurance Plan, Mr.

Speaker, the beef producers in this pro vince would have had a stabi li zation plan that was just com in g to an end on March 31 of this year. It was their fina gling that caused them that po sition. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, it looks like another election promise has been shot down the drain. I feel sorry for the beef prod ucers in this prov ince who li stened to this group across, pledging what they were going to do durin g the election. I wonder, can the Min ister of Agricultur e giv e me any new informa tion, instructions or advice for the MANCO people at

Thursday, 18 March, 1982 Ross burn and Pil ot Mound. The 25 emplo yees are out of work at this time and waiti ng for the government to give them some help to get their industry back on the rails again. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I hope that the board of directors of that corporation - we've met with them. They indic ated to me that part of their difficu lty was the pricing of milk. I indic ated to them that the pro cess they should undertake was an appeal and to be dealt with by the Manitoba Marketing Council. I understand that they have followed that route.

There have been no further proposals in terms of advice; we've offered assistance in terms of marke ting. If there are further proposals to be made, I've asked them to put it into writi ng and we'd be prepared to meet with them and discuss what assistance we could give them. Tha t's where the matter now rests, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Vir den. MR. HARRY GRA HAM (Virden): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Hon ourable Minister of Energy. I would lik e to ask the Honour able Min ister if he has any plans to table the Nugent Report.

He has given a copy to me privately, but I was wondering if he would table the report in the House for the public of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Min ister of Energy and Mines. HON. WILSON PARASIUK (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, I will take that question under advisement. We had received only a limi ted number and it was a matter of determinin g whether we would li ke to incur the larger expense of printing out a large numb er. I'll consider the request of the member and I'll report back very soo n. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Min nedosa. MR. DAVID R. {Dave) BLAKE: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Hon ourable Mini ster of Gove rnment Services responsible for Trans portation. I wonder if he can advise the House when his depar t ment will reach a decision on the abandoned rail line proper ty that is now under review by his department. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honour able Min is ter of Government Services. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I bel ieve the memb er should be aware tha t's a joint effort between Trans portation and Agricu lture, in that the staff of both departments are involved. That pol icy is under review, as I have stated, a few days ago, Mr. Speaker. MR. BLAKE: Mr.

Speaker, to the same Min ister, being a rural representative, I'm sure he realizes that this is the ti me of year when the farmers are making plans for their spring operat ion. I'm sure he's aware of the diffi culties. I know the Memb er for Robli n-Russ ell has a constituent that was told not to to uch the fences on 572 hi s par ticu lar proper ty where the rai l cuts thr ough hi s farm and those fences have since disap peared and he's now wondering who is respo nsi ble. There is a wheat problem coming up to be looked after. Whose going to be responsible for these rail beds?

These people would li ke to have a date when they might expect a decision on what is going to become of the land that's going thr ough their property - the rail beds. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I'm sure the Memb er for Minne dosa wou ld appr eciate the fact that a policy review is not someth ing that takes a couple of min utes. I don't bel ieve that we wish and that it would be prudent to act in an ad hoe basis. We are reviewing what was in pla ce and we may continue with what was there, Mr. Speaker, but at least we need an oppor tu nity to take a good look at it. MR.

BLAKE: A sup plemen tary to the same Min ister, Mr. Speaker. Would the Mini ster be prepared to put indi vidual cases where there is some urgency before that comm ittee and make decisions on individual cases wher e a decision should be reached quickl y? MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I did indicate about a week ago that if there is individual cases of hard ship or inconvenien ce, that if that were referred to me, I'd be prepared to foll ow up on those. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Pembina. MR. DONALD OR CHARD (Pembina): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, one question, a follow -up to the Min ister of Transpor tation.

If the polic y review undertaken on abandone d rail lin e right -of-way disposition is not comp leted by this spring or sum mer, will the province be assumin g the mai ntenance of fences, weed control, et cetera along those right s-of-way? MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I would assume that the natural course will foll ow and, that is, the province who owned the proper ty will want to mana ge those properties in the way that properties are managed that are held by the public. It's not as if the public hasn't the experience to deal with that question. MR. OR CHARD: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, then assume from that answer that the farmer, the lan downer, referred to by the former questi oner could apply to the Min ister of Hig hways and Transpor tation for the reconstruction of that fence. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I think that the former Mi n ister of Hig hways would apprecia te the fact that the pro vince is under no oblig ation to do anyth ing other than what it is doing at the mom ent and that is review ing the policy. MR. ORC HARD: Mr .

Sp eaker , the Pro vincial Go vernm ent, whi lst I had that responsi bili ty, estab li shed a clear and equ itable polic y for the disposition of those right s-of-way and we had commenc ed that disp osition. It is this Minister and this new govern-

ment which has disconti nued that disposition through adjacent lan down ers. These right s-of-way, Mr. Speaker, are of extreme imp ortance to the lan downers throu gh which those righ ts-of-way bis ect. The polic y was in pla ce; it is now disconti nued. Those farmers, those lan downers, want to know when they might expect a contin uation of the polic y that we had under taken and that we had comme nced to sell the pro per ty when not needed by the Crown to those adjacent landowners. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, I again want to rem ind the Memb er for Pembina that those lands were there trespass ing throu gh if you li ke, those same proper ties, pri vate properties for 10 0 years. Just because they are no longer used in that way doesn't mean that automati cally there's an urgency as far as the disposi tion of those proper ties is concerned. We have to develop a polic y and I'm certain, Mr. Speaker, that the mem bers opposit e know that our polic y review does take a li ttle bit of ti me. MR. OR CHARD: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, I might point out to the Min ister that up until six months ago those right s-of-way did not belong to the provi nce. In view of the fact, Mr. Speaker, that those right s-of-way now do belong to the pro vinc e and a polic y was in pl ace for their disposition to Cr own corporations, the provi nce, or to adjacent lan downers, the urgency is there now that the provi nce owns those right s-of-way to proceed with the disp osition of it. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, I would want to rem ind the Memb er for Pembina that there have been signific ant cha nges in this pr ovi nce in the la st few months -o ne of them was a change of government. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mem ber for St. Norb ert. MR. G.W.J. (G erry) MERC IER (St. Norbert): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Min ister of Consumer and Corpor ate Affairs. In view of his annou ncemen t today with respect to Sunward Holi days, and in view of the increasing number of bankrup tcies in the pro vi nce, and in view of the increasing reports of consu mers, Mr.

Speaker, who are losing deposits on goods or services as a result of companie s subsequently going into bankru ptcy and the consum ers losing their deposits and not getting the goods and services they thought they were buying, would the Min ister be pre pared to investiga te whether any program or legi sla tion could be brought into exis tence under his department to atte mp t to protect those consumer s who lose those deposits and recognizing the constitu tional and legisla tive problem of federal and prov in cial jurisd iction? MR. SPEAKER: The Hono u rable Min ister of Consu mer and Corpor ate Affairs.

MR. KOSTYRA: Yes, Mr. Speaker, there are difficul ties not onl y in the area of the travel industry but I do not think from the information that I've been made aware of that the difficu lties in other areas with con sumer purcha ses are as bad as they are in the travel industry where people have to front basically most of the cost or a good part of the costs of the goods that they will be receiving some time down the road. In most other cases consumer s are able to get the goods imme diately on putti ng forward mo ney.

There was some problems with respect to the furniture industry some time ago, however, I would certainly take the memb er's question under advisement and look at other areas. I do know that in the case of the travel industry there is legis lation in two other jurisdictions in British Columb ia and Ontario. I'm not aware of any other legis lation dealing with other aspects of con sumer purchases in any parts of Canada but I'm pre pared to look at that and to see if there is some thing that mi ght be done. 573 MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Min ister for that answer.

My supple mentary question is to the Honour able Attorney -General, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if he would in form the House whether muni cip alities can expect to receive increased police grants, particu larly in view of the new RCMP contract that's now in existence. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Attorney- General. HON. ROLAND PENNER (Fort Rouge): With respect to the fiscal year 19 81- 82, I'm ple ased to announce that we in fact were able to gi ve to the municip alit ies an increase of 10 percent, not as much as we would have li ked, but at least close to the CPI for this particu lar fiscal year.

The problem of policing the municip ali ties, towns and vil lages is a diffi cult one. I have asked the offi cials in my department for a com prehensive report on various aspects of the policing program and the cost to the province. I hope to be able to deal with some aspects of it, indeed, all aspects that I may be questioned on during Estim ates. I'm certai nly pre pared to look at what is a very severe problem for some of the municip alit ies, towns and vil lages, and all I can say at this juncture is that it is a matter of some concern. We are looking at it.

As soo n as I have the report, I'll have it before the time of the review of my depar tment's Estima tes and would be prepared to discuss it with the Honour able Member for St. Norbert or any other memb er on the op posite side of the House at that time . MR. MER CIER: Mr. Speaker, my final question is to the Min ister of Fi nance. Despite, Mr. Speaker, the now Premier's election promise to guarantee a great future for Manit obans, the Prem ier apparently announced last night the intention of his government to raise taxes in the Province of Manitoba.

Could the Mini ster of Fi nance indic ate how much taxes will be raised in Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Fi nance. MR. SCHROEDER: This government will follow the tradition of other government s of announcing Budgets on budget day. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Ri ver Heig hts.

MR. WARREN STEEN (R iver Heights): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I'd lik e to direct a question to the Minis ter of Econom ic Development, and ask her in view of a state ment by the Fi rst Min ister where he is quoted as saying, "We can prov ide interest rate relief and an economic cli mate to ensure that small busine ss stays in busi ness," and ask the Min ister if she, or anyone in her depar tme nt, were ever asked for any financial assistance from the Metro Drugs people? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Eco nomic Developmen t. MR S. SMITH (Os borne): Mr. Speaker, not to my knowledge. MR.

STEEN: The second question, Mr. Speaker, I'd li ke to ask the Min ister if she had any staff person from with in her department in atte ndance yesterday at the creditor s' mee ting, which was held at the Convention Centre, in relation to the Metro Drugs' fina ncial disaster. MR S. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I will take that question under advisement. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honour able Mem ber for Assinib oia. MR. RURIK (Ri

c) NOR DM AN (Assiniboia): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Min ister of Urban Affairs. Will the Member for Ell ice who is acting for residents of the Logan Area, will he be recei ving any part of the $39,000 grant that has been made by the province to those people? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Consu mer and Corpor ate Affairs. MR. KOSTYRA: No. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Pem bi na. MR. ORCH ARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minis ter responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System.

Has the Min ister directed MTS to install an additional satellite dish in Thom pson per mi tting the del ivery of th ree U.S. SatCom channe ls? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mini ster of Com munity Services. HON. LEONARD S. EVANS (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, I'm going to take that question as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Fort Garry. MR. SHERM AN: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the Honour able Min ister of Health whether he's had a cha nce to investigate the ambulanc e routing proce dures that were emplo yed Saturday midnight in the case of the unfortunate shooting victim in th e incident outside the Montcalm Motor Hotel? There were two hospitals involved, Vic toria and St. Bon iface. I think 574 the Minister originally took a question on that subject as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Health. MR. DESJAR DINS: Mr.

Speaker, I'm sti ll awaiting information on this, but while I'm on my feet, another question that I took notice of on the same day, March 16 , from the same memb er, I can now advise him that the memoran dum of agreement on the Diab etic Prev ention Program between the Department of Health and the University of Manitoba termi nates on March 31, 19 82. Unfortunately, due to demands for funding in next fiscal year, the need to pr iorize, we will be unable to support the Diab etic Prevention Program beyond March 31 , 19 82. Our senior medical staff are encouraging Dr.

Moorehouse to make appl ication thr ough the Mani toba Diab etic Foundation for a federal help grant, and if he agrees to do thi s, and is successful in recei ving the funding, we would be more than pleased to con tinue to work with him through our field staff and continu e to recog nize Dr. Moorehous e as our departmental consultant on diabetes. Of course, Mr. Speaker, as funds become more available in future years, we would be very eager to resume the funding of this program. MR. SHERM AN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I thank the Honourable Minister for the information but, of course, it goes without saying that I'm very disappoi nted by it. Obviously we' ll be discussing this matter when we reach the Min ister's Estima tes, but notwithst anding that, Sir, I'd lik e to ask him whether this indi cates that empha sis in the 19 82-83 Estima tes of the Department of Health will again revert to curative, repair-oriented medicine at the expense of preventative programs such as the Dia betic Education Service? MR. DESJAR DINS: No, Speaker, I think tha t we'll certainly look at the direction that the department will be going.

I think we're comm itted to prevention also, but the fact is that we have to priorize. For this year, I think, we have just for the commis sion of the depart ment, there's been a $45-mi l!ion deficit and we must priorize somewhere. MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Memb er for Turtle Mountai n. MR. RANSO M: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Min ister of Natural Resources.

I wonder if the Min ister of Natural Resources could advise the House whether or not the recent Americ an proposals concerning Garrison, which were announced by his Deputy Min ister on March 6, have the supp ort of the Secretary of the Interior of the Un ited States. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Natural Resou rces. HON. AL MACKLI NG (St. James): Mr. Speaker, as indicated the other day, the Deputy Minister in attend ing a mee ting of the Action Committee on Garrison outl ine d the proposed changes to Garrison develop ment phasi ng. I'm not sure to what extent the Min ister •

Thur sday, 18 March, 1982 of the Interior of the Un ited States has appr oved of that. I do know that this alteration in phasing was discussed with representatives of this government some time in October, Mr. Speaker, and that the pres ent admin istration was advised of this proposed cha nge in phasing as early as November 3, 19 81 , by com prehensive memor andum from the then Deputy Min ister to the former Premier, the former Min ister of Natural Resources and one of my staft. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, my question was a very direct one.

Were the proposals suppor ted by the Secretary of the Interior of the Un ited States? MR. MACKLI NG: Mr. Speaker, I haven't had com munic ation with the Secretary of the Interior for the Un ited States, so I really don't know wha t his thinking is on this matter yet. MR. RANSO M: Mr. Speaker, can the Mini ster confirm that written proposals were not received by the gove rnment until Febru ary and that the proposals which were discussed last summer and fal l were ver bally discussed? MR. MACKLI NG: Mr. Speaker, I'm not fam il iar with the summer discussions that the hono urable memb er refers to.

I am fam il ia r with a report that was made to the former admin istration dated November 3, 19 81. MR. RANSOM : Mr. Speaker, if the Min ister is familiar with that report, perhaps he could confirm or advise the Hous e whether or not the former Deput y Mini ster, Mr. Jack McNai rnay - I might say, Mr. Speaker, that Mr. McNair nay is a civil servant who has served the province and the city for 31 years and has no pol itical preferences contrary to present hea dli nes in the pap ers today - can the Min ister advise the House, con firm to the House that, in fact, Mr.

McNai rnay did advise the governmen t that these proposals could, in fact, lead to the deauthorization of the Garrison plan? MR. MACKLI NG: No, Mr. Speaker, my reading of the advice given to the previous admini stration does not indi cate that at all . What it does ind icate is that the proposed revisions to the Garrison project sti ll envi sio ned the use of the Lone Tree Reservoir in Nor th Dakota, but that there would be no ir rigation in lands in the Hudson's Bay Basin, other than an area in the Che yenne Basin which drains into the Robinson Coule e.

The memorand um further goes on to indicate that the Amer ican proponents did not indic ate that they would never proceed with the sewer's loop of this proposed ir rigation project. It's pretty clear from the memor andum that this alteration in pha sing does not, in any way, indicate a reversal on the part of those proponents of the Garrison project. MR. RANSO M: Mr.

Speaker, can the Min ister confir m that the then Deput y Min ister said that what Canada and Man itoba could take from the meeti ng was the realization in the Amer ican jurisd iction that Garrison as originally envisioned would never be built and that, furthermore, he said that pres umably, if the proposal is acceptable to the Secretary of the Interior, it would 575 then go forward for appr oval and, at the same time, deauthorization of the original Garrison plan. It seems to me, Mr.

Speaker, that it is crucial to know whether or not this plan has the appr oval of the Secretary of the Department of the Interior and it raises the question , once agai n, why, when the ques tion was put directly to the Min ister in the commit tee, did he have information concerning the Garrison which would lead him to belie ve that ther e might be deauthorization of the plan? Why was this informa tion not put forward? Will the Minis ter now table the proposals and will the Minister table the November 3 memoran dum from the Dep uty Min ister? MR. MACKLI NG: Mr.

Speaker, I have no problem with tabling this memorandum that the former admin istration received on November 3, 19 81, which is not marked confidential, secret or anythin g else. A MEMBER: We ran an open government. MR . MACKLI NG: Yes, apparently, and that's why I gather that ther e was no surprise on the part of the mem bers opposit e that there had been proposed changes to the Garrison project. They knew about it, Mr. Speaker. In respect to this memor andum, copies of which - I've got one copy here, I'll be happy to table - it's cle arly indicated that ther e is no reversal of the Garri son project.

There is a change in phasing only. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, the other request was, would the Min ister table the proposals that have been put forward by the Unit ed States? MR. MACKLI NG: Mr. Speaker, I don't have copies of any proposals that I'm aware of. My Dep uty Mini ster was advised verbally when he was in Washi ngton as to these pr oposals. I don' t know that there is anything in writi ng. MR. SPEAK ER: The Hono urable Mem ber for Pembina. MR. OR CHARD: Mr. Speaker, a questi on to the Min ister responsible for the Manit oba Telephone System. Mr.

Speaker, to the Min ister responsible, has an understanding or agreement been reached with the Federal Government regard ing receipt of U.S. satel li te television signals in the province? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Minis ter of Com munity Services. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I can only say that the Canadian polic y with regard to broadcasti ng televi sion and satell ites has not changed. The policy that was in place, as enuncia ted by the Federal Govern ment when the hono urable memb er for Pe mbina was the Minister resp onsible for telec ommun ications, is the same polic y that is in existence today. MR.

ORC HARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, then I take from that answer that the Min ister has not reached a new understanding or agreement with the Federal Government.

Thursday, 18 March, 1982 MR. EVANS: Well, Mr. Speaker, I guess I'm repea ting. The Federal Gov ernment stands by its polic y and it's a national polic y which they insist that they stand by. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Memb er for Turtle Mountai n. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker . two or thr ee night s ago in comm ittee, the Minis ter of Natural Resources advised that he was the focal point for information concerning Garrison . Can the Min ister confirm to the Hous e that he has just advised us that he does not know whether or not the province has received a new proposal with respect to Garrison? MR.

SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Min ister of Natural Resou rces. MR. MACKLI NG: Mr. Speaker, subsequent to my Deputy's atte ndance at a mee ting in Washi ngton and thr ough conversations that we had in Ottawa, I was advised that ther e was disclosure of proposed revi sions of the Garrison plan. I haven't seen a document in writing from the Min ister of the Interior or from anyone else.

We do have on display, in the Focus Office in the basement of this buil ding, maps showing the revisions proposed apparently by the proponents of Garrison and that's as far as I know - the only written docume ntation that we have, or the only visual display of the change that we have. If there is anything further in writing, I'll be happ y to table it in the Hous e. I don't know of any. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Member for Lakeside. MR. HARRY ENNS (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I want to ind ic ate to the Hon our able Min is ter of Na tur al Resou rces that in conversation with a Mr.

Murray Sagsveen, the State-appoi nted attorney for the Garri son Conservancy Di strict, he assured me that he would do the Opp osition a courtesy of sending us in duplic ate the mate rial, the proposals, th at were sent to this government in February. When I receive them, I'll be happy to table them in this Ho use and to make them av ailable to the Att or ney-G ener al or to the Min is ter of Natural Resou rces who doesn't seem to want to acknowle dge that he has that material. Does the govern ment have that material? - is the question.

Does the government have a set of propos als that we are informed from responsible officials in North Dakota were sent to this govern ment in Febru ary, just last month? MR. MACKLI NG: Mr. Speaker. I've indicated to the honour able memb er that if there is such, I have not seen it; if ther e is, I will table it. My Dep uty may have that, but I haven't seen it. MR. SPEAKER: Order ple ase. order please. Order ple ase. The time for Oral Questions having expir ed, Orders of the Day. ORDERS OF THE DA Y MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able House Leader. 576 MR. PENNER: Mr.

Speaker, again in accordance with the agreement, the Adjourned Debates and the Second Readings will stand until tomorr ow; and accordingly I would now move, seconded by the Min ister of Fina nce that, Mr. Speaker, now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honour able Mem ber for Flin Flon in the Chair for the Depar t ment of Com munity Services and Corrections; and the Hon ourable Member for The Pas in the Chair for the Department of Natu ral Resou rces. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPl Y SUPPLY-NATURALRESOURCES MR. CHAIRMAN, Harry M. Harapiak (The Pas). We're on Natural Resou rces 6. Lands. We're on 6.(e )(1) . The Memb er for Emerson. MR. ALBERT DRIEDGER (Emerson): Thank you, Mr. Ch airman.

I have a series of questions on this item regarding wild rice and before I get into that I wonder whether the Min ister could pos sibly indicate the lack of al location of mon ies in this area here. MR. MACKLING: Yes, Mr. Chairman, the monie s are relatively the same only they are put in the Enabl ing Vote which comes up separately and the figur es are $68,500 in the fir st item Salaries and Other Expendi tures $24,9 00.00. I think I explained that earli er. Mr. Chairman, that although they don't show there they show in Enabling Vote.

Now the mechanic s of that I'm not too fam ili ar with but the mon ies are there. MR. ORI EDGER: Mr. Chairman, I have series of ques tions here, I don't want to belabour it too long, but I'd like to make some reference to a report that was released by the Min ister, The Manitoba Wild Ri ce Industry, a Comm ission of Inquir y done by a certain Mr. Ross, and I have some concerns about some of the recomm endations in that repor t and I'm just wondering to what extent ...

I'd like to fir st of all have a bit of a reaction from the Min ister as to what his feelin gs are regard ing the matter of the wild rice industry, the direction that he maybe is pla nning to go, if he is planning to go anywhere with it at all, and then maybe from there on I could maybe foll ow up with some questions that I'd like to present. MR. MACKLI NG: Mr. Chairman, the wild rice indus try is a very im portant one for a great many people in Manitoba - I say a great many people, they're not large in numb er - but certainly because of the nature of the industry it involves a great numb er of people.

A lot of Native people have hi storically been involved in the har vest ing and proces sing, at least some process ing, of wild rice in Manitoba and it's an impor tant resource for the peo ple involved and it certainly can be an even greater resource for Manitobans. Ther e were 244 leases last year and we had 89 new appl ica-

Thursday, 18 March, 1982 lions apparently over the former year. Wild rice is a very attractrive food product and commands a good price on the market. It suffers, of course, from supply and demand factors influencing price and it suffers from the problems of qual ity from year to year, too.

It's a commod ity that can be developed much more effectively by control measures, by careful har vest ing, perhaps some additional lakes could be seeded and I am hopeful that this industry will become an even more im portant one for the people of Manitoba and par ticula rly for those who have in the past been involved in the winn owi ng, if I can say, of this resource and I'm par ticula rly referring to the Native people of Manit oba. The Native people hi storically have a limi ted resource base and I'm hopeful that out of all the recommen dations that have been made not only by Mr.

Ross but others sinc e his report, that we will be able to establish polic y which will be effective and productive and produce an even better development of wild rice in Manitoba. MR. DR IEDGER: Mr. Ch airman, to the Mini ster then. Is the Minis ter contemplating or considering cha ng ing the pr esent system or pol icy regard ing the wild rice industry for the upcoming year, in view of the report th at's out and also in view of the fact that a Mr. Bostrom is looking and doing an overall review of it to some degree again of the repor t, I assume ?

I have more questi ons on that but I'd fir st lik e to see what the Mini ster's reaction is, whether he is considering changes for the upcoming season? MR. MACKLING: Mr . Chairman, we ha ve reco mm endati ons being made to us. The Ross recomm endations I'm sure the hono urable memb er has read as well as a numb er of us have read, I think it's premature at this time to make decisions as to how the resource will be ha rvested this year. I th ink it would be prudent, we sti ll have some time , to await further reco mm endations, the analysis that Mr.

Bostrom will be making, and I hope in addition to that to be able to have some consult ation with group s that are interested and group s that have alr eady visit ed with me in respect to it, before a polic y deci sion is struck for this year. As I ind icated to the honour able mem ber, I think he was present when I made comment on this subject earl ier , that it may well be that during this current wild rice harvesting year, we will not have set in a position polic y or program for the full development of the industry. We may again then be involved in some mea sures for a limi ted time frame another year. MR.

DRIEDGER: Further then, Mr. Chairman, is the Min ister recomme ndin g or is there an opportu nity for peo ple who are interested in this kind of industry to make representation to Mr. Bostrom? How can he be contacted? Is he having hearings? How is he conduct ing his enqu iry to some degree? Because I know of individua ls that would lik e to maybe meet with him or make reco mmend ations and if the Min ister could pos sib ly, either thr ough the Commit tee here or pri vately otherwise, maybe make the people aware of the fact that they can have some of their concerns 577 expressed to Mr.

Bostr om; that I think would do a lot to help alle viate some of the problems in the industry. MR. MACKLI NG: Mr. Chairman, I'll be happy to refer as I have any further recommendations, any observa tions, any constructive advice from any persons that the hon ourable member may know and have con tacted him. I'll be happy to refer those to Mr. Bostrom. However, because we are anxious to endeavour to review pol icy as quickly as we can, we have indicated to Mr. Bostrom that we want his report by the end of the month, so there isn' t all that much time for further in put to the analysis that Mr.

Bostrom will be making on our behalf. But as I've already indicated to the honour able memb er, after we receive that report I'm hop eful, pro viding I'm sti ll not here in Estima tes, and even if we are, I will make time on the weekends to deal with people who want to talk to me about the advice we have been given, includin g the analysis of Mr. Bostrom, hopefu ll y, before we must make deci sions in respect to the current year. MR. DRIEDGER (Emerson): Thank you, Mr. Chair man, just some of the concerns.

The fact that we have a repor t here, and maybe my colle ague, who used to be the Min ister before who authorized the repor t by Mr. Ross. I have had the occasion to meet with the various groups from the Wild Rice Associations, indi- · vidually as well as in groups, and they don't necessar il y agree with all of the recommendations and have some views as to the thi ngs that may be concerns. For examp le, the time element of leases, the block leasing programs, the investment that they have, and many of the lakes that actually, potentia lly , could be seeded.

One of the problems that they have is the capital investment that is involved in terms of some of these lakes that you can only fly in, and the seed ing process, and getting your eq uip ment in, etc. Again it ties in to some degree with the water resources in terms of certain lakes, or shallow lakes where there is a certain amoun t of controlled structures put in pla ce, permits are req uired. The other thing is that the har v est season itself is taking appro xima tely anywhere from a month to six weeks, two months or some th ing like that.

The possi bil ity of setti ng up structures so that the workers that are out there in isola ted areas, at least can have someplace to have reasonable living quarters while they're on the job, and agai n, envir on mental people, to some degree don't allo w these thi ngs to happen out there. Ther e's always a li ttle bit of a pr oblem about getting some of these structures set up so there are many areas that the people that are in the industry, and I, incidentally, Sir, have never har vested wild rice, but I've had the occasion to get acquai nted with people that do.

So, the Minis ter probably is aware of many of the shor tcomings in this thing. The recommen dati ons that are in the Ross Report ! would hope that discretion was used in applying some of these things. I, along with some other peo ple, don't necessarily agree with all of those recommenda tions, so I would hope that the Min ister, when he form ulates his polic y for this coming year, and even tually the long- range polic y - I've criticized him from time to time for lack of consultation with peo ple from other departments - that he would consult with the

Thursday, 18 March, 1982 people in the industry, not necessarily just the Native people, there's other people involved as well that have capital investments involved who should have a chance to speak their minds before dyed-in- the-rock type of pol icy gets form ulated. I just want to know what will happ en to new appli cants that make an appli cation for, let's say, iso lated lakes that are not under lease right now. Will these be processed in the normal fashion at this stage of the game or what happens to them in the interim? MR. MACKLING: Wel l, Mr.

Chairman, that's a good question that I haven't been advised to date wha t additional appl ications have been received this year, if any, over last year. I would think that a great number of people know that a review is bei ng made, and may not be applying; however, I really don't know. But past polic y was, first come, first allocation. Gi ven the fact we're looking at the whole industry, that doesn't mean to say that we're necessarily going to do that. We have, I understand, 89 new applic ations on hand. MR. SPEAKER: The Memb er for Emerson. MR. DR I EDGER: Thank you. Mr.

Chairman, since the leases I understand are only on a year-to-year basis, there is always the concern of the indi viduals who have seeded certain lakes and done certain prepar a tory work, etc., this area of fir st-come, first-serve, creates some concern in my min d and some people's concern that, if on that basis somebody would take and apply for a lease on some lake that had been developed in some degree in the wild -rice industry that somebody else cannot take and apply on that.

Now, I know, this is a sort of discretion call but I would caution the Min ister to be relatively careful in that direction that just because there have been a change of govern ment that not necessarily the change in some of these lake leases take place. Just as a word of caution because they are only one-year leases and there is some concern in the industry among some of the people that this could happen. MR. MACKLI NG: Mr.

Chairman, I'm advised that the past practice that has been pursued apparently for some time, is that although the leases are for a one year period, that as long as they have met the req uirement s of the lease, there has always been an attem pt to permit renewal of those leases. But the recommendations that have been made in the Ross Report and the other recomme ndations and obser va tions and suggestions we're getting of course, will infl uence what polic y determi nation is made of the industry, including the lea sing. MR. DRIEDGER: Just a few shor t questions.

Who is the authority that actually authorizes the leases at this stage of the game? MR. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised it's the Dir ector of Lands. MR. DRIEDGER : Which would be? MR. MACKLI NG: Mr. Amie Barr. 578 MR . DRIEDGE R: And this individual, under his juris diction with the peo ple on his staff is the one that would be proces sing the leases, if any leases came in, and authorizing who gets what? MR. MACKLI NG: Wel l, Mr.

Chairman, of course, sub ject to the polic y directions that we will form ulate after we have consid ered all of these recommen dations, includin g any constructive advice we may get from this Comm ittee. MR. DRIEDGE R: One more. Then people who wish to make recommen dations or presentati ons would be in a position where they could also further this kind of information or meet with either the Min ister or Mr. Barr and his people? MR. MACKLING: Mr.

Chairman, the regional director does not estab lish polic y and so any polic y sugges tions and so on, ought to be directed thr ough the Min ister's office and then we will be forward ing them, if they're in time to Mr. Bostrom; if not, I'll sti ll be deal ing with them. MR. CHAIR MAN: The Mem ber for Ruperts land. HON. ELIJAH HARPER (R upertsland): Yes. My question is to the Min ister about, I'm concerned about the time frame. I understand that the time frame to repor t or for consult ation meeti ngs or the repor ts should be in by March 31s t. Is that correct? MR. MACKLING: Yes. MR.

HARPER: Because I've had some representa tions from various indi viduals and groups concerned about that, because it doesn't giv e enough time for them to prepar e and I understand that also they're callin g for interpro vincial conference by one of the groups deal ing not only with themselves but with indi viduals li ke farmers, or busi nessmen to deal on this issue. Are you aware of that? MR. MACKLING: I'm not aware of the parti cular con cern about interprovi ncial dis cussions on it, but I think that would be advisable because the marketi ng of wild rice is not exclus ive to Manitoba.

It could well be as I've indicated, that because of the time con straints we will not be in a position to have comp leted a polic y review in an entir ety that we're satisfied we've been able to consult with enough people to affect an overall polic y decision for this year. So, we may again have to be faced with what the previous admini stra tion was, and that was making some decision this year on a tempo rary basis that is sti ll subject to further revisio n of polic y. MR.

HARPER: Because I was concerned about, you know, with this sh ort period of time developing a lo ng-term polic y that's really very hard to cha nge, but in the meantime maybe tem porary polic ies could be put into pla ce, at least for this coming seaso n. I know for a fact that they were concerned about traditional har vesti ng versus mechanic al harvesti ng. One of the other thi ngs too, is that the Native people is to retain em ployment in those com munities and

also to develop some sort of market, and also put in a processing plant and most of the wild rice is sold into the States and there's no retain ment to ongoing emplo ymen t for the commun ities. Part of the problem has been that there is no imp lementation doll ars ava il able for the various commun ities to im plemen t their projects.

I know a lot of representation has been made to cha nge some of the pol icies, but the problem has always been to go beyond that; I know for a fact because I worked with 16 bands about three years ago and we made some recomme ndations in terms of marketi ng, in terms of seed ing the lakes and in terms of har vesting mechanic ally and also tradition and also proces sing the plan ts. But the problem has always been to im ple ment those thi ngs and hope this government would see fit to help the com munities not only in the pro vince because the Federal Gov ernmen t has some respo nsibilit y too. MR.

MACKLING: Yes, Mr. Chair man, I welcome the comme nts of the honour able memb er. Certai nly, we will want to, in our pol icy decisions , reflect the con cerns of the people who want to see a polic y that provides for not merely the harves ting, but also the proces sing here of prod ucts so that we get more of the emplo ymen t benefits, the econo mic benefit, from the industry which has unfortunately in the past been subject to merely the har vesting and most of the pro cessing bein g done elsewher e. Certainly, I will wel come the honour able mem ber's contributions by way of further advice too.

As he's indic ated, he has had some experience in this area before. If there are any further submis sions he hims elf wishes to make, of course, he can do it through our government caucus, but it would be help ful to put those also into the mill with those who we get from Mr. Bostrom and fro m the other groups and I would welcome that. MR. HARPER: I have no further comme nts. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Memb er for Min nedosa. MR. BLAKE: Mr. Chairman, I don' t want to com ment at length on this.

I wonder if the Min ister could give any indication of how many lakes or what percentage of the lakes are not under permit that are sort of open for harvest by indi vid uals? MR. MACKLI NG: I'm giv en to advise that most of the lakes that have been identified as having natural wild rice or wild rice pot ential, from the point of view of seed ing, are under lease or have been exploi ted but there is sti ll an ongoing search by some for extension of that and I am sure that ther e's probably more area that could be developed. MR.

BLAKE: Yes, it's a fairly lucrative busi ness and I just wonder what control is ther e to detect or to pick up poac hing or bootlegg ing, whatever word mi ght suit some people acq uiring wild rice that maybe aren't in accordance with the permit terms or in the best interests of the industry, is that just conservation officers keep an eye out for it or is there any specifie d watch or control? MR. MACKLI NG: Mr.

Ch air man, the honour able mem ber is right it's a very diffi cult area, the enforce ment, because it is not regulated in a way like cereal grains are regulated by a board or com mis sion and, once it's off the lake it is hard to identify, and it's difficult. And, oft ti mes I'm advised by staff that what will happ en is that a foreign buyer - I say forei gn, I mean they're usually Americans - have just dropped into a lake at har vest time when they know harves ting is going on and they buy the rice at la keside and away they go. A MEMBER: The y set up a tripod and the scale is on there and away they go. MR.

BLAKE: Yes, that was part of my concern, it would be a very very diffi cult thing to watch I know and, as I say, it's maybe not restricting free trade or free enterprise in anyway, but there are some areas wher e I can see a great percentage of the prod uct going out into an illi cit mar ket or a black market, so to speak, without any way of detecting it at all. 579 MR. MACKLI NG: Wel l, I just have to agree with the honour able memb er, it's just difficu lty of enforce ment.

However, those involved in the industry are watchful and it's lik e, I have some experienc e with the trucking industry, and those who are involved are the obser vers and enforcers to a degree and I th ink prob ably what's happ ened, over the course of many years, is that without there being a recognizable market for processing of the green rice here in Man itoba, people involved were happy to sell to someone who would take the prod uct off their hands because it does dete rior ate if left unprocessed. MR.

BLAKE: That 's my main concern, I'm not inter ested in a lot of it, I mean, a few pounds usually does me over the year and I didn't want that source cut off. I don't like pa ying $8.9 5 a pound for it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, we're on 6. (e)

(1) Salaries. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, are we pa ssing this item? MR. CHAIRMA N: Wel l, I would hope so. The Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I defer to the Mem ber for ln kster. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for ln kster. MR. SCOTT: Thank you. I just wanted to make a couple of comme nts on the industry as a whole.

I think there has evolved in the past couple of decades, or a past decade really, an attitude that I agree with certainly and that is that the first chances for many of the leases should go to the Native people in the areas that reside within the general area, espe cially the east side of Lake Winn ip eg which is of course the area that we're talking about. But I have a couple of concerns on some of the areas that I have come by in canoeing in that area in the past myself.

The one operator, in particular. on the Bl ack Ri ver which is now, I think it's just south - I'm not sure if his area is within the New Nopimin g Park or

not - but in this area the person who is operating it - it's a fly -in area - they had crashed a road thr ough because there's no gravel to make a road so it's just basically a conti nually widening mud path through the bush with junk strewn and bits and pie ces of vehic les strewn all over the pla ce.

But the most upsetti ng thing was that he had gone down below one of the beautif ul falls about a half or three-quar ters of a mile below his operation - and his operation was on just a small adjoining lake really that drains into a widening of the Black Ri ver and is called Bl ack Ri ver Lake and he had in a very very crude fas hi on started dynamiting the top of the falls to lower the level of this widening in the river. There was sti ll dynam ite lying around.

Where it had been dynam ited the rocks whene ver you do dynam ite esp ecially if you use no mats or wha tever, there's jagged rock cast all over the ruddy pl ace. It's in a very good canoeing area, a pristine area, very much so a pristine area and what they have done by this person going thr ough - and I don't know whether he had li cense to be able to go in at that point in time and carry on li ke he had or not - to be able to change the water level.

But I think the perm its - and he's sup posed to have a permit to use dynam ite in the first instance - the permits for what they can do on a water regulation I th ink has to be addressed not just on the benefit to the industry itself or to hi s lands but also what it is doing to other uses within the area. To just focus on the Wh iteshell, for instance, a li ttle bit of hi story.

I just found out in the past couple of weeks tal king with someone who is from the area said that the wild rice industry is much less than it was years ago, at least the potential was much less pres ently than it was a number of years ago because of water regulation which raised the levels of many lakes.

I bel ieve some of the lakes are around Wh ite Lake and Brereton was as wel l, Red Rock I bel ieve as well and these areas of water were raised for recreati on purposes and are now - and I'm not certain I'd recomm end that change at all - but the whole regime of water regulati on, I think, has to be looked at on confl icting uses, particu larly when you're deal ing within what is sup posed to be a natural park. I put on the record the other day wha t a natural park is sup posed to be.

I certainly agree basically with the recommenda tions coming from the Ross Report here on the tradi tional form of har vesting rather than going in and turning it over purely to the mechan ized harvesters. So I guess in concluding my concern is, that when we start looking even at seed ing new areas and new lakes if there is not wild rice in them, then there is perhaps a reason why there isn' t wild rice in them just from a natural perspective, that has to be continually seeded.

If we get into the idea of mor e intensive farming of the areas and having to introduce ferti li zers and what not, then you are talking about major chemic al bal ance change in the water and I don't know that that's necessarily desirable, espe cially when we're tal king about pro vincial natural parks. So, when we're deal ing with the changing of the water levels and man agement of the water with farming itself, of whether we should be seeding new areas, when you are seed- 580 ing new areas are you upsetting the present balance in the area for staging waterfowl in particular and also nesting waterfowl.

So all I'm really asking for, Mr. Min ister, is when we are revie wing this report thr ough wha tever mecha nisms have been established, that we start looking not just simp ly from the point of view of productivity of the wild rice - certainl y we have to look at that - but I think we also have to start doing some of what I hope will be coming forth before too long, is environ mental assess ment review processes. When we are tal king about introducing farming of wild rice into areas wher e presently it is not in exis tence or trying to upgrade for hi gher levels of production, present wild rice pr oducing lakes.

MR. MACKLI NG: Mr. Chairman, I thank the honour able memb er for his observati ons. It is true that there have been wild rice oper ators who appear to have taken matters sort of into their own hands in respect to water control measures and that is not perm itted. An oper ator must get appr oval from the Water Resou rces

section of the department in connection with any alteration of water levels and I am advised that one oper ator has presently been referred, the actions that he or she took. In respect to altering water level it's with the Attorney- Gene ral's Department for pos sible pr osecution. There was a dragline involved altering the water level. I don't know whether the department is aware of the instance that the honour able mem ber talked about. So there has to be an ongoing supervisory role in respect to any wild rice operator's developments.

Al though as the Ross Commission indicated, water control is a factor and of course in the prod uction of wild rice and that has to be carefull y supervised. In respect to the use of ferti li zer in wild rice prod uc tion our staff indic ate that to their knowledge hasn't been the case to date. I would think we would want to look very very carefully at ferti li zer use in wild rice production because of the environ mental concerns the honour able member refers to.

I suppose it should not be automa tical ly ruled out because it would change the environment but we'd have to look at it very carefully because fertili zer heavy in phosp hates can alter the char acter of the waters themselv es and perhaps very quic kly. So certainly we will be inter ested in that concern. MR. CHAIRMAN: 6.(e )

(1) Salaries. The Memb er for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, just before we pass this item I do want to put a few thi ngs on the record. Fir stly, that I find it perfectly understandable that a new admin istration would want to choose somebody such as Mr. Bostrom to review and to assist the Minis ter and the department in finding some solutions to this rather fascinati ng subject of wild rice. Mr.

Min ister, part of the reason that we haven't got all the answers solved is because although it's not a major part of his department, it doesn't lend itself to easy solutions and simple answers to the resolut ion of the problem about the wild rice industry. Tha t's because the industry is different thi ngs to different people; it's very much part of the cultural background

of very substantial numbers of people - I refer, of course, to our Na tive people that are involved in the industry. It is a busi ness; it's a fairly lucrative busi ness for some of those that are involved and, of course, I concur whole heartedly with the com ments made by the Mem ber for Ruper tsland that a greater role should be found to maxim ize the opportu nities of the indus try in the province. However, Mr.

Minis ter, you will untlou btedly find out, if you haven't al ready, that there have been many good efforts made by successive gove rnment s, includin g one that you, Sir, were part of and one that I was part of. I would like to belie ve, Mr. Min ister, that in the appoi ntment of Mr. Bostrom you will not simply be trying to rework all the ground that I believe Mr. Ross covered fairly well. Whe ther or not you accept the recommendations of the report are, of course, entir ely up to the present govern ment, but let me put on the public record that I deli berately chose a person like Mr.

Ross because, although he has many many years of dedi cated public service to this pro vince and to many different governments, he had no parti cular connection with the wild rice industry and while, at the time of his appoi ntme nt, that was seen by some as some thing lacking or fai lin g in the person that recomm ended him for this repo rt, I found it to be just the opposit e. You'll find very quickly that anybody that is in the wild rice busi ness has very fixed views, there's a great deal of vested interest involved and much of it understandable.

So, I deli berately chose a person that had no prior background in the wild rice industry, but I belie ve that Mr. Ross, I know that Mr. Ross, carried out his responsi bil ities with a great deal of resp onsibilit y; that he spent a great deal of time with all of the people involved in the industry, at the lake level, at the processing level. He, I th ink , has understood some of the kind of traditional val ues in the wild rice industry,

part icularly as you relate to the Native people, I think that is reflec ted in the report. I think he has also tried to understand that there is a very genuine conflic t here with respect to methods of harvesti ng, traditional versus mechanic al, and has also attempted to have some feel ing, some under standing of the role of the pro vincial govern ment and their respo nsibil ity wher e this occurs in a pr ovincial park; that the park ethics, if you lik e, have a role to play as well. So, Mr. Chairman, with those words, let me recom mend the Comm ission of Inquir y that was carried out by Mr.

Ross to this Min ister. I would hope that Mr. Bostrom avails him self of Mr. Ross' very serious look into this inquir y when he is doing his review and making reco mm endati ons to the department and, Mr. Chairman, certainly not in any patr onizing way I wish the Mini ster well in finding a resolution to this problem. It is not because there haven't been serious efforts made.

There have been different approaches, co oper ative appr oaches been made, the willin gness to pretty well leave it in the hands of Native co-operatives to harvest this resource, have been tried and for one reason or oth er have fai led in the past, so, good luck, Mr. Min ister. MR . MACKLING: Well, Mr. Chairman, I just want to thank the hono urable member for his remarks. Cer- 581 1982 tain ly, we will need good fortu ne but I guess we' ll need to do a lot of hard work. I know that Mr. Bostrom will be communic ating with people who have made submi ssions and I hope that he has also commu ni cated with Mr.

Ross where he feels that that would be helpful. The Harvey Bostrom review will be much, I supp ose in a way it'll be looking at the Ross Repo rt and the reactions to it and giving us further comme ntary on that. I think that the Ross Report was a good effort, despite the fact there are people who aren't happy with its recom mendati ons, and we' ll have to evaluate the recommen dations in light of the constructive crit icism we're receiving on it.

But, we will need goodwi ll, and I don't know whether, even after we develop, hopefu ll y, a long range polic y, I'm sure that there will sti ll be req uests for impr ovements over the years and let's hope that with goodwill the industry will continue to grow and im prove. MR. CHAIRMAN: 6. (e )

(1) Salaries-pass; 6.(e)

(2) Other Expenditur es-pass; 6.(e) (3) -pass; Resol ution No. 10 6. The Memb er for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, not to hold up the Resolu tion at this point, but because our rules prevent us from speak ing to a Resolution that the opposition took a negative position to, I do want to put it on the public record what the exercise was all about yester day when the vote was req uested for the passage of Resolution (d) (2) having to do with Crown Lands Reg istry. I say this for the public record, I think, individ ual memb ers are aware. Mr.

Chairman, the Min ister has, on a number of occasions, indicated that, and under standably so, we've acknowledged that, that he has not in all instances had the oppor tunity or indeed perhaps the incli nation to expr ess any strong views about any parti cular matter in these Esti mates which, as he correctly stated, have su bstantially been put together by a different admin istra tion, a different Min ister and certainly with lit tle oppor tunity for his own influence with respect to these Esti mates. However, Mr.

Chairman, it is not acceptable, cer tainl y to the Mem bers of the Opposition, for a Minis ter to indicate to us in the comm ittee that he has serious reservations about an item and is not prepared to defe nd the inclusion of that item in his Estimates, parti cularly when a Memb er of the Gov ernment side takes a pretty critical position about the inclusion of that item as the Memb er for Ri ver East did. It was deeme d im portant to us to find out whether the Minis ter and the Memb er for Ri ver East was prepared, des pite his opposition at this comm ittee, to the inclusion of a

part icul ar item, to then have to stand up and vote for the m. Mr. Chairman, what that simply demon strates is a Min ister is responsible for all the items that he's put ting before this comm ittee and the Min ister cannot take a position of; wel l, I don't really necessarily sup por t what's in my Esti mates, but it's there in front of you. That's not the way the rules work, Mr. Min ister. I know you're aware of that. Whether you have had the opportun ity of fam il iarizing yourself with all these Esti mates, the fact of the matter is, you, sir, are pres-

Thursday, 18 March, 1982 enting them to us for approval and if we sense in you, sir, some thing less than supp ort for your own Esti mates, it leaves us very li ttle choic e than to suggest - even though we might have had a role in prep aring those Estim ates - we are prepared to learn, sir. If a new, enl ightened Min ister has reserva tions about some of these Esti mates that we've prepared then perhaps we were wrong, and that was what the exer cise was all about yesterday with respect to the votes. MR. MACKLI NG: Mr.

Chair man, I just want to say that if the honour able mem ber's concerned about my enthusiasm, it's only tempered by the lack of appreci ation for the intricacies of the department so far. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution No. 10 6. THEREFORE BE IT RE SOLVED THAT there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1, 547,500 for Natural Resou rces for Lands-pass. MR. CHAIRM AN: Now we're on Natural Resou rces, No. 7, Forestry, on 7(a )(1 ), Salaries. MR. ENNS: Wel l, Mr. Chairman, again we seem to be working out al right under the arrangement that al lows us some leeway in the discussion of these thi ngs.

My fir st que sti on to the Min ister would be to indi cate the change from the 3.9 mil lion over print to 4.3. That doesn't represent a great deal of an incr ease. The Forestry Division has in my judgment, req uired some recognition that we in Manitoba are not doing as well as we could in terms of making sure that this very valuable resource is not harvested in such a manner that puts us into a too seriously negative position, by that I mean cutting more than natural growth will allo w. Of cou rse, Mr.

Min ister, thr ough natural causes Manitoba has suffered some very serious years of deprivation as a result of forest fires. The extremely dry conditions of two sum mers have had their toll on Manitoba forests. It seems to me that heig htens the concern for acknowle dging in this divi sion of his department some additional elb ow room. It would have been my hope, Mr.

Min ister, to have accompl ishe d that, perhaps never to staff's expe cta tions, but certainly such things as the expansion of the capacity for our seed ling and planting program at Hadas hvil le, certain ly, at least the start of a somewhat enhanc ed reforest ation program. I will ask you specif ically, Mr. Min ister, how we compare in Manit oba wi th respect to our reforestat ion program as com pared to some of our sis ter jurisdic tions. It's my concern that we are not in good shap e.

So, we have to recognize that, and I think the Min ister has to look within his own department if funds are a problem as they are, if they are limi ted, whether or not the division of forestry doesn't receive some extra attention. I note in a general perusal of the Esti mates, Mr. Ch airman, that by and large there is no cha nge, only allo wances for infla tionary costs of the operating and the salaries wit hin the department. I think tha t's pr ob ably a fair assessmen of the Estima tes as I see them. Well, Mr.

Chairman, with those few open ing remarks, I would in vite the Min ister to partici pate in the del ib erations at this ti me, parti cula rly those two questions. I supp ose any capital impr ovements would not be sh own here but would be shown somewhere else? I 582 ask that because I make the specific allu sion to exp anding the capacit y at Hada shville or somewhere else, and the possible expanded reforestati on pro gram. Thank you. MR. MACKLI NG: Mr. Chairman, I thank the Honour able mem ber for his remarks. In respect to the memb er's observations about capi tal; he is right.

There are some capital expen ditures that will be reflected under Item No. 13 that have appl ication to this

section of the department. In addi tion, I mi ght say that if you look at the items, Item (

g) doesn't have dol lar items set on the right -hand side, again there and, as I'm understood in the Ena bling Vote and the figures I might give now; that's Item (g) (1), Salaries, 300,900, and Other Expendi tures, 1, 860,9 00. MR. ENNS: Pardon me, Mr. Chairman, is that an Ena bling Vote? MR. MACKLI NG: Yes, I'm giv en to understand that is out of the Enabling Vote. I'm given to understand that of the items in Capital, that is in Item 13 , the capital items in ther e do not include anyth ing in respect to expansion of Hadash ville at this time and deal with resource roads or fore stry roads only, so far as this department is con cerned, this

section of the department. By way of general comment I think the honour able memb er, his observations respec ting reforest ation, the further development of the Hadashv ill e Nursery, if I can call it that, are well founded; I think we want to look at that. Cert ain ly, we may; I think my department will confirm to me that we may not com pare as favourably as we'd lik e in respect to our reforestry program and nursery program as sis ter provinces. We'll certainly want to be looking at that in the future.

I think I'll limi t my com ments to those because I don't want to take any mor e time with the mem ber's time than is necessary. MR. ENNS: Mr. Ch airman, I know that the forest-fire costs are not involved in these Esti mates and if I may be allo wed, Mr. Min ister and I do so not for my own purposes but simply to acknowledge the excellent staff work and the people involved in the development of what we refer to as the fir e attack crews in provi ding in Manitoba a corps of profe ssional firefig hters.

Forest fir e prevention has in the past, rel ied to a large extent on being able to comma ndeer, summ on help from wherever it's available and that has worked reasona bly wel l, but it has always been recognized by staff that what was req uired was at least a corps of profes sionally trained fir efigh ters who were knowledgeable about the new equipment that was avai lable to them, that could be air l ifted, dropped in by helicop ters, par ticula rly to catch the fires at their earl iest pos sible mome nt.

All records indicate that kind of sup pression is by far the most successf ul, if we can airl ift a crew in at the very earliest outbr eak of that fir e. It was my good fortune to have attended an on-sit e demo nstra tion of the capacit y of these fir e attack crews. There was every effort made, to develop an genuine esprit de-corps within that group, and most of the fir efigh ters involved come from our Native comm unities; they

Thursday, 18 March, 1982 were just excell ent in terms of their capabil ity in carry ing out this imp ortant work. Wel l, Mr. Chairman, I make just that general comment about the forest fir e suppr ession at this tim e, even though they are not contained in these Esti mates. Mr. Ch airman, on another matter, when I was Minis ter responsible, there was always a consid erable amount of attention paid to the Abitibi Forest Man agement Agreement. Ther e was, Mr. Gi>hairman, and the Hansard records will prove, considerable opposi tion to tha t agreement when it was signe d by my predecessor, Mr. Ransom.

A lot of the opposition came from a person who is now consulting you, advis ing you, Mr. Bostr om, who was then the Memb er for Rup ertsl and.

I would ask you to offer some advice as to what the new admin istration feels about that Abitibi Forest Management Agreement, and specifically, there was always a question that was raised by the Honour able Memb er for Rupertsland at different times, and I'd ask the mem ber to consult the staff as to whether or not he can confirm that the agreement is working, is beneficia l to Manitoba, and that this government has no intention of substantially altering that agree ment.

One par ticular concern that was often expressed, both at the signing of the agreement and has come up since the agreement has been in effect, is that a numb er of private operators, or independen t operators, have been forced out of busi ness as a result of that agreement with Abi tibi. I wonder if the Min ister could advise the numb er of private or inde pendent operators that have forced out of busi ness, if indeed, the re are any. Can he giv e us some indication as to whether or not that is a legiti mate concern? MR. MACKLI NG: Yes, Mr. Chairman.

In respect, fir st of all, to the concern about the fire sup pression activi ties of the department. The Honour able Memb er is qui te right about the desirabil ity of early fir e suppr es sion, and the apparent effectiveness of the fir e attack arrangements which do have the capacity of getting to a smal l-scale fire and mini mi zing it. The doll ars and the vote is' not included under this Item; it's under 12 .(k), under Regional Services and there's 66 staff involved in that. My staff indic ate here that it's about $4.5 million dolla rs involved in that operat ion.

In respect to the Abitibi Agree ment, I haven't per sonally yet made an evaluation of that, but my staff indicate to me that in respect to the concerns about indi vid ual woodcutters, those concerns about their being dis placed have not material ized , that the sys tem seems to be working very well withou t har dship to those indi vidual cutters. Their rig hts were protected under the final arrangements. MR.

ENNS: Just to be somewhat more specific, the Min ister then, cannot advise me of any par ticular numb er of independent cutters that the department has had to force out of cutting rights as a result of the Abitibi Agreement? MR. MACKLI NG: My staff indicates to me that it doesn't appear any quota-holder that had a quota prior to the agreement has been forced out of timb er cutting or operation. MR. ENNS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr.

Chairman, it alw ays came as somewhat of a surprise to me that the arrangements, particularly those regarding forest management, refores tation programs, etc., are con si derably poorer at the government run mill, the oper ation at The Pas, Man For than those run by the private mult inational, Abitibi. I wonder if the Min ister can confirm that? MR. MACKLI NG: Mr.

Cha irman, my understanding of the matter is that is when agreements were ini tially sig ned with Chur chill Forest Industries and the other parti cip ati ng companie s, agreements in respect to stumpage and the general forestry operat ions, did not provide for reforest ation and their long-term agreements with respect to forest use, and in effect, a pretty hard bar gain was driven in respect to forest extraction in those original agreements. They have a long time to run.

Of course, even though it is now a Crown opera tion, pre sumably, I suppose the govern ment could force a renegotiation of those arrange ments, but wha t they do in that area, I understand, is not provide for reforestat ion by man. It's left as a natural reforesta tion. There are differences in the north.

There was a very, very extensive cutting area provided for that originally, Chur chill Forest, now ManFor opera tion, and presumably ther e is sufficient timb er and pulp within the cut area that's authorized to tha t company that pro vincial foresters, I assume, do not see a need currently, for reforesta tion. Now, I suppose that's subject to review, but that's my under standing of the situat ion, Mr. Chairman. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I would have to take except ion to the suggestion by the Min ister that the Crown operation at The Pas owes or, indeed, is in anyway tied down to some agreements by a com pany that was put into receiver ship taken over by the gove rnment, a government that you were part of, Mr.

Mi nis ter, I re mind you and indeed its princip les sought after for crimin al action, I think it's stretching a point to suggest that there are agreements or com mi tm ents that thi s govern ment, as in deed the govern ment of the past four years owes any par ticular obliga tions, moral, legal or otherwise to some of those origi nal agreements that might have been in the works or in place that the Min ister refers to. Surely, Mr. Chairman, as I think the Min ister hims elf realized as he was giving his explanation that it is a government-run operat ion, it is a Crown Corpora tion.

You app oin t the directors of ManFor and as such can imp ose polic y with respect to the ManFor Forestry operation and my question still stands. 583 It is my understan ding - and I am suggesting it because there has been a suggestion that from time to time parti cularly from mem bers opposite - that any dealings with multi nationals of course is not in the interest of Manitobans but in this instance I am led to belie ve that the Forestry Management Agreement that Manitoba signe d with Abitibi is among the more progressive in this country and certa inly treats our valuable timb er resource in a better way, in the area that Abitibi is involved, than for instance does our own government-run operation at ManFor.

MR. MACKLI NG: Mr. Chairman, unquestionably the Abitibi agreement was made between a pulp opera-

Thur sday, 18 March, 1982 lion that was in a weaker bargaining position than Chur chill Fo rest Industries were at the time those agreements were sig ned. Obviously given the bar gai ning position of the comp anies involved, one can antici pate that the results are different. I don't quarrel with the honourable memb er's words about the Abitibi agreement. he may be absolutely righ t that it's an excel lent agreement. I haven't made that evaluation. But in respect to the Mani toba fore stry's opera tion. it's sti ll based upon the agreements that were made with Chur chill Forest Industries. However.

I am giv en to understand that as a result of the department's activities. Manitoba Forestry resources will be submitting proposals in respect to some reforestry operation whi ch would include plant ing and thinning and other activities. I might say that recently arran gements were made with Moose Lake Loggers for some thinnin g activity ther e which would have the effect of providing more adequa te growth of hi gher quality ti mber in the result. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Ch airman, in another area that cer tai nly I acknowledge not havi ng succeeded in my short duration as being the Min ister responsible and that is to secure for Manit oba a better deal out of Ottawa. The Federal Go vernment correctly acknowledges that the forest industry generally in this country is one of the main export money earners for this cou ntry, the major emp loyer in this country and as such is signif i cantly in volved in the supportive role in the develop ment of forest managemen t agree me nts, in the devel opment of free forestration programs and so forth thr oughout the cou ntry.

It was alwa ys my hope that we could strik e a harder bargain for Manitoba in this area.

I appreciate the cli mate for enh anced federal aid is waning but none thel ess it seems to me that tha t's the tragedy of Can ada. tha t at a time when we have untold milli ons to spend on various concepts of what this country ought to be and wha t is req uired for its unity, whe ther it is hiring of Bruno Ger ussi for a couple of hundred thou sand doll ars to promote the metric system because we belie ve tha t tha t's going to be a great nation build er, it seems to me that these gutsy, hardno sed programs that are so vital to the preservation and the enhancement of major natural resources of our coun try, such as forestry, have tough sledding when it comes to getting their fair share of attention from Ottawa.

So I would want to encourage and indicate to the Honour able Min ister certainly the wholehe arted sup port of the memb ers of the Opp osition in his efforts to secure for this bran ch, I think some of that extra atten tion that I spoke of quite frankl y, could come from Ottawa and I'm simp ly saying, don't treat Manitoba any better or in a special way than the Federal Gove rnmen t treats Quebec or British Columbia or Ontario, but at least on a per capita bas is or on a resource al location basis, treat us as well as some of the other jurisdictions.

It is my information, and the Min ister may be able to get that from his staff, that traditionally and hi stori cal ly we h11ve not been treated as well. I apprecia te that Mani toba doesn't rank among the major forest pr oducing prov inces in the country. Our forestry is 584 marginal in comparison to British Colum bia's or to Quebec's and Ontario's, but nonetheless that doesn't take away from the legiti macy of our ins istence on getting a fair share and forestry to Mani toba is im por tant. The two mai n operations as well of course, is the numb er of the smaller independent one s.

So I encourage the Min ister to pursue that with all the vigor he can. Mr. Chair man, one fi nal question if I may, going back to the Abitibi matter for just a moment, would it be the Min ister's intention to avail hi mself of the servi ces of Mr. Bostrom in any way at some future date, to advise and consult him on poss ib le changes of the Abitibi Forest Agreement? MR. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I don't know whether that's constructive advice on the part of the honour able memb er or not but if it is I will have to take it under advise ment.

In respect to the gener al ity of his remarks par ticula rly regarding the lack of general assistance on the part of the Federal Govern ment in respect to our forestry industry, I haven't had a posi tion yet to make a com parison as to the Federal Government's inpu ts to Manitoba as com pared with sister jurisdic tions.

If the honourable memb er is right you can be certain that this government will be poi nt ing that out to the Federal Governm ent and asking for our fair share. not more, but our fair share and hope fully with somewhat of an im proved clima te between the Federal and Provinci al Gov ernme nt, we may be able to do some thing. I might point out that our industry is a very val uable industry. The economic value to the Provi nce of Mani toba is appro xima tely $400 mill ion.

So it is a very im portant industry in this prov ince and it does rate consider ation by the senior government when it comes to shar ed-cost progr amming of various kinds. MR. BLAKE: Mr. Ch airman, I've just one or two ques tions of a gener al nature. On fir e damaged timb er, wha t is the policy follo wed on allowing operators in there to retrieve fir e-k il led timb er before it gets into the rotting stage? MR. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised by my staff, and I should have introduced Mr. Harry Laws to the comm ittee, h hasn't been here this far and he's our Provincial Forester. I'm advised by Mr.

Laws that, in the case of fi rekill . and this is the practice tha t has been ongoi ng for sometime, that exis ting quota hol ders are encouraged to take out the fir ekill, as much as possi ble, and then, when it becomes appar ent that the existing quota hold ers won't be able to harvest all that is available, we go to the public and encourage me mb ers of the public to take out timb er perm its to extract fireburnt tim ber. MR. BLAKE: This was follo wed in the Porcupi nes, that bad fir e there. Most of that timb er was retrieved as far as poss ible by the existi ng oper ators that were there, eh. MR.

MACK LING: Mr. Ch airman, I'm advised of that fir ekill that the honour able memb er refers to, about 200,000 cords have been salvaged which represents about one-quar ter of what was avai lable for salvage.

Thursday, 18 March, 1982 MR. BLAKE: Yes, Mr. Chairman, just as a com ment, there was a problem in the Riding Mountain National Park and, of course, it's Parks Canada polic y that there's no har ves ting done there but we had about 10 0,000 acres burnt out in there and that's just a shame that ti mb er and rails and wood has gone to waste.

Another item of interest that I receive com ments on every time I go up north, with a numb er of people that have switched over to par tially heati ng their homes with a woodstove now that ther e's a lot of deadfall and waste timb er, if there was only a bit of a bulldo zed road pushed in the odd section, I'm par ticu larly refer ring to Flin Flon area, that they could get in there with a li ttle two-wheeled trailer and load out some of this fi rewood at a pretty reaso nable price. I wonder if the govern ment is going to foll ow any polic y to make that situation avai lab le? MR. MACKLI NG: I'm advised by Mr.

Laws that we have done that in some areas and certainly we could look at mor e of that in areas lik e the mem ber refers to. MR. BLAKE: It was interesti ng, ln co have opened up an area where they're going to open a new open pit and they've al lowed the townspeople to go in and that's been very very well received and I th ink that there's a great many areas wher e this can be accomp li shed with a li ttle co-operation with the townspeople.

Also, in Nor way House, the Band have a sawm ill in there that has been a fa irly successful operation and they've indi cated there was a tim berberth close to that area that req uired about 13 mil es of winter road and I just wondered if the department was foll owi ng a course of making that access road available to the Band in order that they could get in there and take out that tim berberth and provide that mill with another six or seven years of operati on. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, Mr. Laws advised me that the re's nothing in Item 13 on Capital on that road expansion.

However, that suggestion certainly can be conside red and I'll ask staff to pursue it. MR. BLAKE: Yes, the comm ittee and the Band group are pretty aggressive and I'm sure that if some assis tance were made available to them they would proba bly build that road in there themselves with very very li ttle cost to the Treasury. Maybe, if Mr. Bostrom has a weekend left on his latest consulting contract. he might go and have a look at it and provide the Min ister with an up-to-date report. MR. MACK LING: Wel l. Mr. Ch airman, I'm sure that if Mr.

Bostrom isn' t available the honour able memb er and I will imm edia tely we get these Estima tes throu gh, go up ther e and take pick and shovel in hand. MR. CHAIR MAN: The hour is 4:30 p.m. I'm interrupt ing the proce edi ngs for Pri vate Memb ers' Hour. MR. CHAIRMAN: We'r e on Na tural Re sou rces. 7.(a )

(1) Salaries. The Mem ber for Min nedosa. MR. BLAKE: I think my questions on the vari ous items can wait, Mr. Chairman. I will defer now to whoever is on your li st. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Memb er for Emerson. MR. DRIEDGER: Thank you. Mr. Chai rman. I would just like to have a few com ments and a few questions that I'd li ke to present to the Min ister. Fir stly, I'd like to encourage what I thought was his comment that he felt he was going to enla rge on the Reforestation Program in the Province of Manitoba.

I believe he indicated that our sister provinces possib ly had better programs in regard to the reforestat ion than we have. I certainly bel ieve that the Pro vinc e of B. C., which I think their major industry is Forestry, and they I bel ieve have a very good program where for every tree that is cut there has to be one plan ted. I most certainly encourage this kind of approach, espe cially in the southeast where we have a lot of pressure.

We have a limi ted amount of sup ply there and a vari ety of quota hold ers out ther e all wanting to get the ir maximum out of it and I think there is a program in pla ce right now if the Min ister is poss ibly looking in the future for expansion of the Hadash ville pl ant, and I'd also lik e to suggest to him that he could look at the southeast corner and maybe establ ish another one out there. There's a lot of interest there and I'm sure ther e's lots of need for this.

A question that I have is could the Min ister indicate the percentage of allo wable cut for quotaholders in the southeast at the present time ? I believe our situa tion is a li ttle bit more unique out there. In other parts of the provi nce I don't think the pressure is as extreme as it is in the southeast. 585 MR . MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, the southeast region is a very im portant region to for estry because of its prox im ity to market and the honour able member is right . This is an area where reforestat ion has been an ongoing concern.

I don' t know whether it's tree for tree, but there has been, over the years. extensive reforestat ion in that area. In respect to the reduction in cut, overall cut, I'm advised that in 19 80-19 81, there was a 5 percent to 1 O percent reduction in softwood cutting because of the lim ited resource space there. MR.

DRIEDGER: It's two years ago, three years ago, I belie ve. when the initial agreement that was set up in terms of the 15 -year period for quotas - am I right in that - came to an end and then we had all kinds of negotiations at that time and espe cially I think there was extreme negotiation going on in the southe ast of young people wanti ng to get into the woodcutti ng industry, with the quotas the way they were.

Anyway the whole system finally got sorted out, I'm just wond ering, is the Min ister or the department sti ll getting pressure from individuals who feel they would lik e to get into the industry by applying for addit ional quota or new quotas? MR. MACKLI NG: Yes, Mr. Ch airman, a number of woodcutters have been in to see me and we certainly are going to respond to their concerns. We have to look at the problems that are involved in reduced

Thursday, 18 March, 1982 quotas and the cut in the area. MR. BLAKE: Is ther e any additional quota being allo cated to new cutters at this time , new applic ants? MR. MACKLI NG: No, Mr. Chairman. MR. BLAKE: Thank you, then further, the decentrali zation of some of the area offices took pla ce in the last few years, includin g the one, I belie ve, that went to the southeast Steinb ach office, admin istrating the polic y or the program for the south east. Has this decentrali zation taken place, has it been comp leted? MR . MACKLI NG: Not yet, Mr. Chair man, but I think that's kind of in the hopper. MR.

BLAKE: Is there any change antici pated in the decentralization program that was init iated? MR. DRIEDGER: Wel l, Mr . Min ister, we'll be watchin g that very closely in antici pation that there should not be any change.

I would also like to draw to the Minis ter's attention that we have offices in Pine y, as well as in Sprague, and from time -to-t ime ther e has been concern about havi ng the staffing reduced in some of these areas, and as I have my problems, to some degree, with the previous Min ister, who then saw the light of the day and decided there would be no cha nges, I would hope that the present Mini ster would also keep that in mind. I think the need is ther e.

This is in the heart of the forest industry; the major quotaholde rs are located in tha t general area and I would hope that there is not going to be any de staffing of the offices in Sprague or Pi ney. MR. MACKLI NG: No, I won't respond to that. That's just advice to me, I think, Mr. Ch airman. MR. DRIEDGER: Yes. I further have a com ment, Mr. Chairman, to the Minister that, because of the availa bili ty, distancewise to the City of Winn ip eg, there is an extreme amount of pressure on the cutting of fir e wood, expecially under the energy crisis that we have.

We have programs in pla ce where peo ple can apply for cutting of fir ewood - a permit for so and so much - and consideri ng the fact that many of our resource pe ople are maybe not as active in the winter months as they are in the summ er, there has been concern expressed by people in the Marchand area, which is sort of the trunk highw ay into the forestry area there, that ther e is an awful lot of wood that is being moved out there pos si bly without permits and thi ngs of this nature.

I realized it's difficult to mon itor this but the concern has been exp ressed by people, and if some of the forestry people would ever see the amount of traffic that moves through there on a giv en week, or weekend, hauling out wood, I just want to bring this up because the pe ople in the area feel that consid er ing the amount of perm its issued there seems to be a lot more wood moving out of the area. Rather than having the people sitting here in the offices in Win nipeg maybe contempla ting activity for the next year, maybe some of them could be out there moni toring it a li ttle closer.

I realize it's a problem, but permits are req uired and I don't thin k there's too much checking 586 done on that aspect of it. MR. MACKLI NG: Mr. Chair man, I think maybe the honour able memb er could be correct that there could be an increase in surveilla nce and enforce ment, but as the honour able memb er appr ecia tes, that involves extra costs, extra man power and notwithstan ding, we haven't adopted a polic y of acute protracted restrai nt, we are nevertheless going to be very prudent in our hir ing practises and our spending practices.

I think we have to moderate our wis hes in order to make sure that we don't over spend. We'll have to look at that very carefully and if we can impr ove our surveilla nce or monit oring with exis ting staff that will be pursued first. If it appears that further staff are warrented then we will have to consider that. MR. DRIEDGER: I just have a few more questions and comments, Mr. Chairman. This is regarding the rela tionship between the forestry people and the local government district councils.

The councils, espe cially in the LDG of Stuartburn and Pi ney, have cer tain diffi cultie s in terms of operating under a very low tax base where, I think as I have indic ated a few times, 80 percent, or approxi mately 80 percent, of the land in the LGD of Pi ney is non-pr ivate owned. I don't belie ve, at the present time, there is a system of com pensa tion, to some degree, to help them carry the req uired services because they don't have the tax base. Is the Min ister considering at all the pos sibil ity in the future of assis ting, sort of a grant in li eu of taxes, in some of these forest stands.

The land, for very obvious reasons, cannot be sold, it's forestry, it's good forestry land. Still, they are, to some degree, stuck with pro viding certai n services, roads, drain age, etc. to the priva te landho lder s in the area, and a lot of this goes through the forestry section. There is a bit of inequity here. Is the Min ister possibly consider ing that there could be some kind of arrangement worked out with some of the local government dis tricts in terms of prov iding these services? MR. MACKLI NG: Mr.

Chairman, thi s again is an area that would involve a departure from pre vious provin cial government financing and spending, and agai n, it would involve increased spe nding, and I don't want to repeat what I said earlier, but certainly anything like that is pos si ble, but given our fi nances we'd have to be very careful in any review of that kind of proposal. MR. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Consid ering the fact that your department does build roads in certain areas, like Forestry or Parks roads farther north in t

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-1-16a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 1st hansardpdf 16a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	3f18745692284c5cdd3cb149b55e432b4dcbf4ba

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