Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 2 (36th Legislature, 2nd Session)

36-2-2

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

.. Second Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVI No.2 - 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, December 6, 1995 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY Thirty-sixth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Afl'"diation Name CODStituency � ASHTON, Steve Thompson N.D.P. BARRETI, Becky Wellington N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Sel.kirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary Concordia N.D.P. DOWNEY, James, Hon. Anhur- Virden P.C. DRIEDGER, Alben, Hon. Steinbach P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside P.C. ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charleswood P.C.

EVANS, Clif Interlake N.D.P. EVANS, Leonard S. Brandon East N.D.P. FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo P.C. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield P.C. FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley N.D.P. GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface Lib. GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa P.C. HEL WER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES, George Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples Lib. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norben P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns N.D.P. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek P.C. McCRAE, James, Hon.

Brandon West P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane Osborne N.D.P. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia P.C. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn St. James N.D.P. - MITC:HELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East P.C. NEWMAN, David Riel P.C. PALLISTER, Brian, Hon. Ponage Ia Prairie P.C. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PITURA, Frank Morris P.C. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet P.C. RADCLIFFE, Mike River Heights P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack, Hon. Niakwa P.C. RENDER, Shirley St. Vital P.C. ROBINSON, Eric Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Gladstone P.C. SALE, Tim Crescentwood N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Broadway N.D.P. STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Park P.C.

STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin N.D.P. SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye P.C. TOEWS, Vic, Hon. Rossmere P.C. TWEED, Mervin Tunle Mountain P.C. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fon Garry P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River N.D.P.

,. 9 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, December 6, 1995 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Emergency Health Care Services- Community Hospitals Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Doug Simpson, Robert Simpson, S. Simpson and others urging the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) consider making a commitment to the people of Manitoba that emergency health care services in Winnipeg's five community hospitals remain open seven days a week, 24 hours a day.

MINI STERIAL STATEMENTS National Day of Remembrance Respecting Violence Against Women Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister responsible fo r the Status of Women): Madam Speaker, I have a statement for the House. Each year on this National Day of Remembrance Respecting Violence Against Women, we pause to remember the 14 young women killed in

an act of mindless violence at Ecole Polytechnique in Montreal. The shock and the horror does not subside over time. Once again, our hearts go out to the families and the friends of those young women who died in 1989. Today, we also remember and honour the Manitoba women who have died as a result of violence and express our deepest sympathy to their families and friends. All of us have a role to play in stopping the cycle of violence. It is our hope that by working together we can make Manitoba, our province, a safer place to live. Our government has undertaken many initiatives to stem the tide of violence.

We have adopted a stance of zero tolerance for violence in Manitoba. The Family Violence Court, the first of its kind in Canada, has been expanded to Brandon and Thompson and deals sensitively and speedily with cases of family violence. We have instituted an aggressive charging policy and police protocol, such that no reported incident of domestic violence goes unaddressed. We have lobbied and continue to lobby the federal government to strengthen the antistalking legislation in the Criminal Code. However, we cannot do it alone.

We are working with communities and individuals to provide supports for families in crisis. We fund wife abuse committees throughout the province, as well as crisis telephone lines province-wide, ones sensitive to aboriginal women's particular concerns. Our shelter funding model is one of the best in Canada, and we have added counselling support services for women and children. We are continuing our work in trying to change attitudes and behaviours of young people so that they will learn better ways of dealing with anger and frustration through programs such as No Need to Argue.

The Women's Directorate co-sponsored with Winnipeg School Division No. I the London Family Violence Court's A School-Based Anti-Violence Program, or ASAP, to train educators and community groups to initiate violence prevention programs in their communities. *

(1335) In September of this year I had the pleasure of accepting on behalf of the people of Manitoba the Women's Grove Memorial Garden dedicated to Manitoba women who have been victims of violence. This beautiful garden and memorial is a wonderful way in which to honour and remember the Manitoba women who have died as a result of violence. While honouring those who have died, it is also a symbol of hope through its living commitment honouring women's lives.

10 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 1995 This evening, at 7 p.m., a candlelight vigil will be held in the grove to honour the women who were killed in Montreal six years ago today. December 6 has been declared A National Day of Remembrance and Action Respecting Violence Against Women. I would ask each of you to remember those Montreal students who were victims of violence, as well as the Manitoba women who have met their deaths by violent means. Carved in the stone of the memorial garden is a pledge to end the violence against women.

I urge all Manitobans to join in that pledge to end the violence, and I invite all members to attend tonight's vigil in this beautiful grove to honour and remember those who have died. I would like to close by asking all of you, members of the Legislature, community and individuals, to continue to work together to build a Manitoba free from violence. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, I thank the minister for her statement.

I assure her that she can count on our side of the House to join communities, service providers and the women of Manitoba to work for a society which is free from violence. We certainly will, on our side of the House, be doing this work. A sign of our commitment is, of course, our Task Force Report on Violence Against Women which was released today replete with 90 recommendations for ending violence against women. I thank the minister, too, for bringing to our attention the Women's memorial grove.

I thank her personally as the former president of the December 6 Memorial Women's Committee and also as the curr ent critic for the Status of Women. I, too, invite all members of the Legislature to join us at seven o'clock tonight for the vigil. Since December 6, 1989, 600 Canadian women and 50 Manitoba women have been murdered in situations of intimacy, murdered by men whom they had once loved and trusted. Every week in Canada two women die this way.

We on our side of the House join, I am sure, with all our colleagues in remembering, December 6, 1989, the 14 young women murdered in Montreal and the 13 others who were seriously wounded and now will always live marked by sexism and misogyny. As parents, grandparents, sisters and brothers, as elected representatives of the people and as ordinary Canadians, we offer family members, friends and other survivors our sincere condolences and our strong commitment to end violence against women.

We will not forget your daughters and in honour of them name them here: Genevieve Bergeron, Helene Colgan, Natalie Croteau, Barbara Daignault, Ann-Marie Edward, Maud Haviernick, Barbara Marie Kluemick, Maryse Laganiere, Maryse Leclair, Anne-Marie Lemay, Sonia Pelletier, Michele Richard, Annie Saint Arneault and Annie Turcotte. I would like to also mention today the names of the two Manitoba women who were murdered as a result of domestic violence this year: Rhonda Michelle Lavoie and Dawn Brunsel. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Health Care System Emergency Services Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): My question is to the First Minister. Madam Speaker, we are pleased to see the government will utilize public consultations for decisions affecting health care. It is unfortunate the government did not use public consultations before the Premier (Mr. Filmon) made the unilateral decision to close our community emergency wards in the evening at the five hospitals. Madam Speaker, repeatedly on October the 6th, October the I Oth, October the 16th and October the 19th, the Minister of Health (Mr.

McCrae) has used the figure 4 percent as the justification for the Premier's decision to close the community-based emergency ward hospital wings in the evening. I would like to ask the Premier, was that the rationale and the data used by him and cabinet when they

December 6, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 decided to unilaterally make the decision to close down these community-based emergency wards in the evening? *

(1340) Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): The honourable Leader of the Opposition is quite incorrect to refer to any decisions made as unilateral. This government, unlike the one that the honourable member was involved with, is much more consultative with stakeholders in the community, including health care providers and consumers, than they ever were. Thousands of Manitobans have been part of the consultative process in the development of any health reforms that have taken place and any health reforms that will take place in the future.

Madam Speaker, the numbers that the honourable member refers t<H:here are numbers that fluctuate from year to year. As a matter of fact, at this particular time, the usage of emergency rooms is down somewhat from what it was a year ago. So numbers do change from time to time. If it is 4 percent or 5 percent or 8 percent or 11 percent or whatever percent it is, it is a small amount of the-the percentage of emergent care delivered in our emergency services facilities in the city of Winnipeg is small compared to the total usage.

But that percentage, no matter how small or large, is an extremely important number because those are potentially life-threatening situations. I recognize that. Minister of Health Replacement Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I guess this new accountability does not start with the Premier who refuses to answer the question and take responsibility for the decisions that he and his government have made affecting the lives and livelihood and health care of citizens.

I would like to table a document today that talks about the fact that it is 11 percent that are emergent and 58 percent are urgent at our community-based emergency wards. The government has had documents indicating that his numbers have been off it by a hundred percent ever since we have been raising this question in the House. I would like to ask the Premier, will he give us a new minister of health care who will make decisions based on the facts, who will tell the people the truth and take responsibility for the effect it has on Manitobans? Will the Premier take responsibility for a terrible decision?

Will he reverse the decision and give us a Minister of Health who can give us straight answers to straight questions in this Legislature? Bon.

Gary Film.on (Premier): Madam Speaker, I want to say to the Leader of the Opposition that while he attempts to play cheap politics with issues that are very important to the people of Manitoba, we have a minister who is working with all stakeholders in the health care system, who is listening, consulting and involving thousands and thousands of Manitobans in the process of working to provide better care and a cost-effective system of health care that will address the needs of the people of Manitoba.

It is that kind of attitude, Madam Speaker, that is needed and it is that kind of attitude that is being provided by the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae), as opposed to the kind of cheap political rhetoric we get from the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Doer: Well, Madam Speaker, if the Premier is satisfied with numbers that are totally false being the rationale of his government making decisions, that may be his standards but those are not the standards of Manitobans in terms of their health care system. Health Care System Emergency Services Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Dr.

Ludwig, on December 5, was quoted as saying that he knows what the decision of government is, but he just cannot tell the public what the decision will be about the emergency wards situation at our community hospitals. In light of the open, accountable new nature of this government, can the Premier please tell us today, if Dr. Ludwig knows what the decision is, what is the

12 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 1995 decision? Will the Premier reverse the horribl e decisions of his government and his Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) and reopen our community-based emergency wards, as they were intended to be, at midnight, Madam Speaker, or are we going to continue to play peekaboo politics with the Premier not telling us what is going on? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I heard Dr.

Ludwig, on CJOB, responding to the Leader of the Opposition on that particular occasion, where he made a fool of the Leader of the Opposition by demonstrating- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Doer: A point of order, Madam Speaker, the Premier's facts, just as his answers, are all incorrect. I have never been on the radio with Dr. Ludwig. I have been on the radio with a paid consultant from the provincial government. I would ask the Premier to apologize and withdraw his comments. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Leader of the official opposition does not have a poin t of order.

It is clearly a dispute over the facts. *** Madam Speaker: The honourable First Minister, to complete his response. Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I am quick to offer my sincere apologies to the Leader of the Opposition, and I should not in any way misrepresent Dr. Ludwig. It was Dr. Moe Lerner who made a fool of the Leader of the Opposition. Madam Speaker, the very fact is that Dr.

Lerner, who is an expert in emergency room procedures and who has run eme rgency room s in the past and has extensive experience, of course, did take rightful exception to the misinformation that was being put forward by both the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) and the membe r for Concordia, the Leader of the Opposition. That is why he made a fool of them. *

(1345) Health Care System Emergency Services Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): My question is for the Premier. [intetjection] If the Premier is trying to answer the previous question, perhaps he can get up again, but will he perhaps try to listen to my question, Madam Speaker? Madam Speaker, my question for the Premier: Can the Premier explain why Dr. Ludwig said on CBC Radio yesterday that he knew, quote: Do you have any sense how many emergency rooms will be open at night? Yes, I do but I am not going to comment. How is it that Dr.

Ludwig knows, and this hiding government, this secretive government, this government that makes decisions in the backrooms will not tell Manitobans what they are going to do with the emergency wards? Can the Premier try to explain that, rather than taking shots at all the opposition critics? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, the member opposite would have to ask Dr. Ludwig that. Minister of Health Resignation Request Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): My supplementary question is for the Premier.

Can the Premier explain why they have kept information secret, why this Minister of Health has misled the public of Manitoba with regard to information, why this government has been using figures that have been inaccurate-and it has clearly been tabled this morning that these figures were inaccurate-why this Premier has allowed this minister to go on? Will the Premier do the right thing and ask the Minister ofHealth (Mr. McCrae) to resign because of incompetence? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, the only incomp etence that has been demonstrated time

.. December 6, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 13 and time again is the false accusations and false inf ormation that have been laid on the table of this Chamber over and over again by the member for Kildonan. That is the kind of tactic that has no place in a debate about serious issues, and that is why the members opposite have been made to look like fools, because they continually come here and make false allegations and lay false information on the table. *

(1350) Health Care System Emergency Services-Consultations Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, can the Premier, who could not answer the questions and could not explain those misused figures by his government, explain this tabled document that I am going to table which is the minutes of the Steering Committee on Emergency Wards, the committee set up by the government? It says the problem is there is no public consultation and no education regarding emergency wards, and that is part of the problem.

Can the Premier explain why his government has a throne speech that says they are going to consult and at the same time their own emergency report says they are not consulting with the public and there has been no public input? Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, over the years and certainly recently as well, there have been significant levels of consultation.

The thing the honourable member, who was totally silent when it came to trying to get the doctors to return to work when they went on strike, what the honourable member clearly ignores is the fact that even though we pleaded with the doctors not to do that so that we could work with them to develop that integrated emergency system that we have been talking about, the doctors were out of the picture and the whole process was changed somewhat.

The honourable member chooses to ignore that when he asks his questions, but he cannot get around the fact that the people with whom we consult and the people of this province of Manitoba would very much prefer an open and consultative approach rather than an arrogant approach that says, we will do it our way or we will do it no way. Dwayne Archie Johnston Parole Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, my questions are for the Minister of Justice.

Yesterday, aboriginal people from Norway House achieved an historic victory for victims of crime, first, by appearing before the Pacific parole board; second, by making the point that victims and survivors count; third, by convincing the parole board to visit Norway House and participate in community healing; and, fourth, by winning the right for Justine Osborne and members of the Women's Wellness Circle to appear before the parole board when it meets in March to discuss full parole for Dwayne Archie Johnston, the convicted murderer of Helen Betty Osborne.

My first question to the minister is, what responses has the minister received from the parole board, and what actions has she taken in this matter? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, as the member opposite knows, I wrote directly to the parole board, as Minister of Justice, giving to them our opinion of what should be considered in terms of the parole of Dwayne Archie Johnston. To my knowledge, I have not yet received a written response, but I will check on that. One may have come and I have not yet received it at my desk. Aboriginal Women Saf ety Ms.

Diane McGifford (Osborne): Especially in light of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry, would the minister tell us what she is prepared to do to ensure aboriginal women's safety? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, certainly we want to work with the aboriginal community, as with all Manitob ans, to deal with the issue of safety. Some of the safety requirements, though, come through changes to the Criminal Code because we have one criminal law across Canada. Some of the changes which I have asked the federal government to look at

14 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 1995 implementing are reverse onus on bail and stalking, very specifically to look at making sure victims are notified if an offender is released or escapes from jail, parti cularly a stalker. In order to make aboriginal women safe, as all Manitobans, there are certain changes which have to occur through the federal Criminal Code.

However, we in Manitoba have adopted some policies which we believe are administrative that would be better if they were in the Criminal Code, but we in fact are doing those things, such as lett ing victims know if an accused and a convicted stalker is released or escapes from jail. Dwayne Archie Johnston Parole Ms.

Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, given the significance of yesterday 's events for victims of crime across the country and given the minister's commitment to victims of crime, is she prepared to assist Justine Osborne and the Norway House Women's Wellness Circle to attend the parole board hearing when the board meets in March to consider parole for Dwayne Archie Johnston? Bon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, perhaps the member would like to speak to me to let me know exactly what it is she is asking for or what this family may be asking for.

At this moment I have not received any requests. Domestic Violence Legislation Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St Johns): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice. The NDP Caucus Task Force on Violence Against Women today presented 90 recommendations directed primarily at the provincial government so we can work toward an authentic zero toler ance policy. I just want to table three copies of that report specifically for the government so that we can work in a spirit of co operation with the government for improvements .

What the task force heard loud and clear was that we have a very, very long way to go to ensure even basic safety for abused women. My question for the minister is: So there is immediate help to get the abuser rather than the victim out of the home and to help with such issues as access to property and victim compensation, has the minister reviewed the Victims of Domestic Violence Act of Saskatchewan with a view to bringing in that kind of legislation here in Manitoba? Bon.

Rosemary V odrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, contained in the information the member has circulated now, I understand, are opinions of Manitobans which I will tell you we take very seriously. I will certainly be reviewing the document as it relates to the comments of Manitobans. However, I am pleased that based on those comments the NDP party has in fact finally offered concrete written support to a number of the positions which this government has taken from the very beginning. This was the governm ent that established the zero tolerance policy.

This was the government that established the Domestic Violence Court, the only Domestic Violence Court in this country, a model across the country, one in which we have visitors consistently coming to view. In addition, Madam Speaker, members across the way know that we have called an inquiry into the deaths, the murder-suicide in the Lavoie case, and we will be expecting following that that we may have some additional recommendations which may come to government. We will be looking forward to that. But we have at the moment a very aggressive stand.

We will always be looking to improve that, and we expect some additional information to come forward when we get the results of the inquiry. *

(1355) Government Initiatives Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): If the government is looking to improve the status of women and the situation regarding violence against women of Manitoba, would she explain why new initiatives on this issue were not so much as mentioned in yesterday's throne speech?

,. December 6, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 15 Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Of course, the member was not listening because I guess he missed the whole part on victims. I guess he missed the whole

section in the throne speech that spoke about this government's effort to continue to work with victims and in fact enhance services related to victims. He just missed it. He is wrong again. Pedlar Report Recommendations Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St Johns): Would the minister then explain to the women of Manitoba, if the government is so concerned about the opinions of Manitobans, whatever happened to all those outstanding recommendations from the Pedlar report that were released almost four and a half years ago? Hon.

Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I will be releasing before Christmas this government's record of accomplishments in relation to the Pedlar report. In addition to that, I think it will be very clear at that time that we have even gone beyond the recommendations of the Pedlar report. By way of example, I reference stalking and the position that we have taken in relation to convicted persons who are stalkers, the changes that we have asked for in the area of bail conditions. We have not yet ever seen anything concrete from the other side in support of that.

Perhaps what is contained in their document now may in fact support this government's position to the federal government, and maybe the federal government will make changes. Seven Oaks General Hospital Alternative Uses Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health. Back in 1981, people in the north end were served with the opening of the Seven Oaks General Hospital. The community was gratefully pleased to see that particular hospital built.

We were disappointed when the then-New Democratic administration took out the obstetrics portion of that hospital, but over the last few days we have heard significant rumours that have been coming to both me and the member for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski) talking about that this government is currently looking at alternative usage for the Seven Oaks Hospital. My question to the Minister of Health is, is this government considering doing something with the Seven Oaks Hospital, in particular converting it into geriatric usage? Hon.

James McCrae (Minister of Health): The honourable member for Inkster may not have been listening to the throne speech either, because the throne speech speaks about an appropriate and integrated system of health care delivery here for the city of Winnipeg and Seven Oaks Hospital, and a whole lot of other hospitals in the city are engaged in doing that, but they are doing it in isolation one from the other, at least they have been.

There have been some significant improvements in the way that all of the medical directors and CEOs and board chairs and others involved with these hospitals-they have been working much more closely together in recent times, and as we develop an integrated plan not only for emergency services but all the other medical and clinical disciplines, the future of the services delivered by each of these facilities will become clearer. Mr. Lamoureux: I would like the Minister of Health to be very clear. Is this government looking at turning the Seven Oaks Hospital into geriatric care?

Is that what this government is currently doing with the Seven Oaks Hospital? Are they considering it? Mr. McCrae: I would just repeat my previous answer, Madam Speaker, but I think the honourable member may have attended the forum, either yesterday or today, that is being conducted with the facilitation of the KPMG consulting group. I know the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) attended yesterday. The various stakeholders, including providers and consumers, have been taking

part in

16 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 1995 those discussions facilitated by KPMG to discuss the future of health care delivery in the city of Winnipeg of various types of clinical disciplines. The honourable member is wise to raise the issue of geriatric care because many of our hospital beds are occupied by people who should be appropriately looked after in something other than an acute care bed, and that is very much the subject of discussion. So the specific role of Seven Oaks or Grace or Victoria in these areas in the future will become clear as these consultations wind up. *

(1400) Mr. Lamoureux: Will the Minister of Health make a commitment to the people in the north end of the city of Winnipeg and those rural areas surrounding Seven Oaks Hospital that he will put a halt to any conversion of the Seven Oaks Hospital or the current purpose that it is there to serve, put a halt until there have been public discussions on the whole issue of the Seven Oaks Hospital? Mr. McCrae: Like I say, the honourable member, I invited him to attend the discussions that are going on with respect to the future of these services in the city of Winnipeg.

He and many others have been invited and many attend these discussions, and so I say to the honourable member, indeed, decisions will follow appropriate consultations. Domestic Violence Shelters-Funding Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Madam Speaker, many participants to the NDP Caucus Task Force on Violence Against Women spoke very eloquently about the importance of ongoing stable funding for the shelter system in the province of Manitoba Women desperately require shelters to escape domestic violence and abuse, to protect themselves and their children and at times to save their lives.

Unfortunately, changes that appear to be coming from the federal government through their federal transfer payments include the envelope which curr ently provides some funding for women's shelters. I would like to ask the Minister of Family Services if she has met with the federal representatives in order to discuss the issue of funding for Manitoba shelters. Hon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): I thank my honourable friend for that question because it does raise the issue again of the reduction of $147 million that will be facing Manitobans as a result of the 1996-97 federal budget reductions and also the $220 million the following year. Madam Speaker, it does present a real concern to us as a government in Manitoba as to how we are going to deal with all of the reductions that we will be receiving, and health, post-secondary education and family services in fact will be impacted in a very negative way.

I have had dialogue and discussion with my counterparts across the country. We have not had the opportunity to meet with the Honourable Lloyd Axworthy as ministers responsible for social services for two years now. I think that is unacce ptable in the light of social security reform and what impact that is going to have on provinces.

I have indicated many times that in absence of federal leadership, provinces are trying to work together to see how we can develop a national vision for social services for all of the social programs that we provide, and national principals will continue to work on those issues as provinces. But it is not clear to us what the impacts will be, and we are not getting any straight answers from the federal government. Ms.

Barrett: I would like to ask the minister to provide a straight answer to the women and children and people of Manitoba and assure the people of Manitoba that funding a solid, ongoing core funding for programs and counselling for the women and children of Manitoba will be continued through the shelter system in the next budgets of this government. Is she going to assure Manitobans that those services will be protected? Mrs. Mitchelson: I can assure Manitobans that this government has placed a high priority on support for

,, December 6, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 17 women and children and victims of abuse in the past. We will continue to assure Manitobans that support will be there. We have one of the most comprehensive shelter systems right across the country. We take some pride in that, and I want to assure all Manitobans that, within the available resources that we have, we will continue to make services for women and children as victims of abuse a high priority. Ms.

Barrett: I would like to ask the minister if she could tell us in some detail how she plans to address the problems of potential cutbacks from the federal government to ensure, as we have asked, that those services are not reduced, they are maintained, and if possible, as a result of some of the recommendations in the task force, even enhanced. What is she going to do to ensure that those services are maintained and strengthened? Mrs.

Mitchelson: Manitoba, unlike all other provinces right across the country, has indicated very clearly that we are not going to be able to backfill on the reductions that the federal government is making. [interjection] Well, Madam Speaker, I hear some moans and groans from the opposite side of the House, but I want to assure you that governments of Liberal stripe across the country and New Democratic stripe across the country are facing the same circumstance and situation that Manitoba is facing.

All of those governments have made the same statements, so it is not unique to Manitoba We have indicated that within the resources that we have available to us, we are going to maintain high priority for health, education and family services by spending smarter. That will be the focus of all the change and all the reform that will be undertaken through the next year. Hog Industry Marketing System Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, in the throne speech yesterday we heard that a task force will be established to travel rural Manitoba to listen and consult with Manitobans regarding policy and programs.

If this task force is going to really listen to Manitobans, I want to ask the Minister of Agriculture if he will back off on his decision to move to dual marketing of hogs until rural consultation is complete, because he will hear that rural Manitobans are worried about this decision. They are concerned about the impact on producers and their communities. Will he really listen to rural Manitobans through this task force? Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, what I can advise the honourable member for Swan River is that a transition committee is being established while I speak.

I have suggested that the first meeting with Manitoba Pork on the issue that she raises will take place on or about the 15th of this month, December. It is my hope that accommodations can be made to achieve a smooth transition to implement the decision by government that has been made for a more flexible marketing of Manitoba hogs in this province. Ms. Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, so the minister is telling us that he is going to make an arbitrary decision on the marketing of hogs and then he is going to pretend that he is going to hold task force hearings across the province for Manitobans to be consulted.

What is the point? Is this a PR program for rural Manitobans saying that they are going to listen when he is cutting their livelihood off by implementing dual marketing? *

(1410) Mr. Enns: It was a decision that was recommended to me by, possibly, the dean of agricultural economics that we have at the University of Manitoba employed by Liberal governments in Ottawa, Progressive Conservative governments in Ottawa, New Democratic governments in the province of Manitoba and governments of all description. I am referring to the former Dean of the Faculty of Agriculture, Professor Clay Gilson-a study that took seven or eight months to complete, which consulted every aspect and every player in the hog industry and very much so, producers and Manitoba Pork. It was their recommendation that, after contemplating that recommendation for a better

18 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 1995 part of a year, this government chose to make its views known on the recommendation. Madam Speaker, with respect to the question she asked about the need for a task force, agriculture is changing, I can inform you, and some of the icons of agriculture are changing. Two out of one Alberta wheat farmers voted for dual marketing in Alberta today. So let us understand that if the New Democrats -[interjection] Let me correct it.

The results are two out of three, but that is simply an expression, as the federal minister has acknowledged, of the concern that is out there in western agriculture and the same concern, quite frankly, is abounding in Manitoba as well. The proposal is to have an understanding of that concern, to move throughout rural Manitoba and to talk about all agriculture issues in this post-WGTA era, and that is what the proposed task force that was alluded to in the throne speech will do. Ms.

Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, since the minister says his decision was based on a study that he commissioned and produCers are saying that they were not consulted in this study adequately, will the minister listen to producers and give them a say in this by giving them a vote, or is he paying off some of his friends on this? Mr. Enns: I have so much confidence in the honourable member for Swan River that I know, upon reflection, she will wish to retract that comment all by herself.

But, Madam Speaker, this issue is an issue that has in the past, by previous administrations, including N�w Democratic Party admini strations, been made when a position was arrived at by the government and leadership, in fact, was exercised, and that is precisely what I am doing with the current hog situation. Manitoba Telephone System Salary Disclosures Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, my question is to the minister for the Manitoba Telephone System.

On November 14, 45 employees at MTS were laid off with no right for recall, and on November 24, MTS hired four new presidents at salaries which have yet to be disclosed. In the spirit of the throne speech, which I just had the opportunity to read right now, there was reference to a greater financial accountability by public institutions to the public, so I wonder if the minister could start by indicating how much are they paying the new presidents for the four new corporations at MTS. Hon.

Glen Findlay (Minister responsible fo r the administration of The Manitoba Telephone Act): Madam Speaker, I think the member knows full well -we were in committee, we talked about this-that restructuring needed to be done at MTS. Restructuring has taken place. He approved of the restructuring. He approved that we are in a different time frame now. We have a federal regulator, and we need to separate the monopoly component of the company from the business component of the company, and that is what the restructuring has done. I am very proud and pleased with the individuals who applied.

I believe over a hundred people applied for the four positions at MTS. Madam Speaker, as the minister responsible, I want MTS to run itself as a corporation at some arm's length from the Manitoba government. I do not ask that kind of question. I will inquire for the member what the salaries are . I will bring it to him . But I can assure the member, four very capable individuals from eastern Canada have come and taken those positions out of the approximately hundred that applied. They are very well qualified. They have worked for Bell Canada, for Northern Telecom, and for Unite! in their careers. Mr.

Ashton: Madam Speaker, I take it financial accountability of some public sector institutions does not necessarily include the Crown corporation, so I will ask a further question, which is a decision that is going to be made directly by the minister and by the Premier. I would like to ask, given the fact they have already increased the payment to existing board members and they are now going to be creating four new boards, if they can answer how much each person on the board is going to be paid and how these people for these new four boards are going to be selected.

December 6, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 19 Mr. Findlay: The four boards that the member is referring to will be advisory boards. The members, the number and the composition is still under discussion. Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, I have a fmal question. I would just like to ask how the minister can look the 45 employees, who were dismissed at MTS, in the face when they have absolutely no rights of recall, no labour adjustment strategy, and yet this government is proceed ing with hiring four new CEOs and creating four new boards at the public expense while these people are out of work. Mr.

Findlay: Madam Speaker, if the member looks across the country he will see that 45 is a very small number compared to what has happened in Alberta in terms of Bell Canada. This is an industry of very high technology, new equipment, better equipment. You need less employees to operate the system. Madam Speaker, I can very proudly say to the member the amount of activity in that system continues to increase. The system continues to offer lower-cost options, particularly in long distance, which the consumers of Manitoba benefit from. Our mission over there is to keep the cost down and improve the level of service.

They have done it aggressively in the past and will in the future. School Boundaries Status Report Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker, last Friday, the school division Boundaries Review Commission released its supplementary review and recommendations, this of course being a final report to the final report which was released last February. My question to the Minister of Education: Can the minister tell the House and the taxpayers of Manitoba if this actually concludes the mission of the boundary commiss ion, and what is the total bill to the taxpayers of Manitoba? Bon.

Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): I just want to, first of all, indicate in response to some of the phraseology in the

preamble that the opposition has just spent the entire Question Period demanding further consultation from various bodies on this side, and, yet, when we took a few months to have further consultation- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Madam Speaker, on a point of order, I would point out that it is very clear in Beauchesne that answers to questions should deal with the matter raised and they should not be editorial comment or opinion on previous questions or answers in Question Period.

I would ask if, once again, you could ask the Minister of Education to address the question rather than providing extraneous editorial comments. Madam Speaker: On the point of order, I would remind all honourable members that indeed we do have rules, and I would suggest to the honourable minister that she keep her comments relevant to the question that was posed. *** Mrs. Mcintosh: In the question that was posed, the member referred to the fact that the review had had a further consultation.

In response to those points that the member mentioned, I would indicate that members opposite have spent the entire Question Period asking other members to consult. Madam Speaker, we did that in this case at the request specifically of the member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett), other members on the other side of the House who asked if we could take further time to consult. So I would expect the member would be very pleased that second look was taken, as many of her members asked for it, and it was indeed, the members on that side of the House said it was not long enough a consultation.

So let us be consistent, Madam Speaker. I think it is terribly important in the interests of being fair. We are being consistent on this side in consulting, and I would hope that they could be consistent in their questioning on that.

20 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 1995 The Boun daries Review report has now been received by the government a few days ago and that report, Madam Speaker, will now go to government for decision. There will be no more public hearings, in answer to her question, although members are still free to talk to us if they wish to. * (1 420) Cost-Benefit Analysis Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St James): Madam Speaker, again I am going to be talking about the serious question of cost analysis and cost-benefit of this rep ort. Is the minister aware of the St.

James Assiniboia School Division's cost-benefit analysis which conservatively esti mated at least a $7 -million cost, additional cost, for the amalgamation of only one of the proposed 22 divisions? Bon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, the member is referring to one of hundreds of reports that I have read, and she may wish to go through all of the reports that we have read. Certainly, if the member is trying to imply, am I concerned about costs and division of assets and liabilities to divisions, of course I am, as are all members on this side of the House .

Indeed, Madam Speaker, that was one of the items that we said we would be looking at in terms of a final decision, would be those divisions of assets and liabilities and costs to divisions, so, yes, I am aware and I have done a fair bit of study into it, as has my department. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The time for Oral Questions has expired. Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: I would like to draw the att ention of all honourable members to the loge to my left where we have with us this afternoon Jim Carr, the former member for Crescentwood. On behalf of all honourable members I welcome you this afternoo n.

ORDERS OF THE DAY THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (First Day of Debate) Madam Speaker: On the matt er of the consideration of the spee ch of His Honour the Lieutenant Governor. Mr. Mike Radcliffe (River Heights): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck), that an humble address be presented to His Honour the Lieutenant Governor as follows: We, Her Majesty's dutiful and loyal subjects, the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, in session assem bled, humbly thank Your Honour for the gracious speech which Your Honour has been pleased to address us at the opening of the present sessi on. Motion presented.

Mr. Radcliff e: Madam Speaker, I begin my remarks today by saying how good it is to be back here in this Chamber. I look forward to another session in this Chamber and to be the beneficiary of your wisdom, your judgment, as you preside over the proceed ings in this House. We know you will continue to demonstrate your skill, your patience, which is often required in the · proceedings in this Chamber, in your role as the Speaker. I would also like to acknowledge my friend, my col league the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau), the Deputy Speaker.

We will continue to look forward to receiving the benefit of his knowledge and his compass ion on the proceedings in this Chamber. Madam Speaker, I would also like to thank the Premier for giving me the opportunity to move the thro ne speech and put a few thoughtful, provocative remarks on the record. Madam Speaker, the throne spee ch that we heard yesterday was a speech concerning values, and I want to talk about those human values, those essential integral values which relate to this government of how we are fulfilling our mandate in the province of

.. December 6, 19 95 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 21 Manitoba. This speech and our policy and this government is talking about human dignity. We are talking about the trust that we have received from the people of Manitoba to govern. We are talking about the principle of accounta bility. We are talking about fearlessly, in the face of a changing economy, in the face of changing needs in our community, presenting innovation, vigorous innovation, to meet the changing needs of our world. We are talking, Madam Speaker, about consequence of acti ons. We are talking about responsibility.

We are also talking about tolerance in a multicult ural society, a multicultural society in Manitoba which is representative of many different heritages from around the world that have found their place to the meeting of the rivers here in Winnipeg in the province of Manitoba which succeed in enriching our culture, in giving us contacts out into the global village which Manitoba appeals to and is trading into today . One of the integral things that this speech and our government policies will be appealing to and showing leadership for is to create a spirit of self-reliance in the people of Manitoba.

This is one of the values that made this great Canadian nation. This is one of the values that made this province the keystone of our union in Manitoba. Madam Speaker, we are now entering into, well into, tough times in Manitoba. We are entering into strange new times in our nation of Canada. When I think of this challenge that is facing us I am reminded of that well-known Chinese proverb which says may you live in interesting times. Well, indeed, these are going to be very interesting times. Yesterday, our thro ne speech restated our commitment to strong economic growth. This speech referred to job crea tion.

This is an essential need of every Manitoban in our province, and we, the government of Manitoba, have heard that need. This speech refers to excel lence in educa tion while protecting vital social services, restoring safe communitie s. We have made a further commitment, Madam Speaker, to accountab ility in government. We have received the confidence of the ma jority of the citizens of Manitoba, and we have declared that we will be accountable to this cons titue ncy. We will tell them how their money is spent.

Madam Speaker, one of the key steps in our presenta tion of good governance in Manitoba has been our balanced budget legislat ion. This has been a key achievement that many other provinces and the federal government are now trying to emulate. This sense of frugality, this sense of moderat ion, which has imbued all the spending practices of this government, is now reflected and balanced by a keystone in our fiscal policy which has been this balanced budget legisla tio n. This speech made a further affirmati on that we would be consistent and adhere to the principle of no new major taxes.

This government over the course of the last eight years has not raised any significant tax in this province, namely, the income tax, the sales tax, even the payro ll tax, Madam Speaker. We have in fact reduced the taxa tion level in this province in conformance with our commitments to the people of Manitoba. Madam Speaker, one of the roles of this government which was ou tlined in the edifying speech yesterday was that this Manitoba government will be an advocate for the province of Manitoba, for the people of Manitoba.

In fact, if my learned friend would care to read the document, he might see that the Province of Manitoba is willing to sit in concil iation with our coll eagues in Ottawa. We will bring vigorous representation to Ottawa. We are faced with a rapacious federal government right now who is bent on righting its fiscal imbalance, and this may very well create social inequities in the province of Manitoba. It may create inequities in the unemployment insurance changes.

It will certainly, it has, and we have all heard in this Chamber of the impact on the cutbacks to the agricultural industry and the supports to agriculture in this province. * (14 30) I need not remind the members of this Chamber that agriculture forms the backbone of our province, and all

22 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 1995 the industries in our fair cities in Manitoba can trace their roots to agriculture. That must never be forgotten, Madam Speaker. Therefore, our Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns) has in the past and will continue to represent our best interests with our colleagues in Ottawa. We now have been faced very recently with a potential threat of the closure of Atomic Energy at Pinawa. I know the honourable minister in charge of this area of the province will be vigorous and assiduous in his representation and advocacy to our colleagues.

We are facing in this next current fiscal year $14 7 diminishment in the transfers-[interjection] $14 7 million. I beg your pardon, and I thank my learned friend, my honourable colleague. [interjection] No, maybe not learned, but we presume he is honourable. Madam Speaker, a $1 47-million diminishment in our income. The estimates for 19 97-98 fiscal year are indicating there will be an additional $220-million decrease in our income. Now that, as the speech yesterday referred to, is equal to the budget of the University of Manitoba for its operating expenses for a year.

That is equal to the annual budgets for operating for the five Winnipeg community hospitals. Madam Speaker and colleagues, you can see the significance and the import of this diminishment of revenue that we are facing in government in Manitoba this year. In spite of the federal governmenfs differing priorities, our government has continued with its commitment to health, to education, and to family services. Madam Speaker, we heard even today our honourable Minister of Health (Mr.

McCrae) saying that there will be consultation, that an integrated plan for delivery of medical services is on the cusp of being presented to the people of Manitoba. Regional health boards are being established. This is a compassionate government, a government that listens to the needs of its people. We are not hung up on bricks and mortar and magnificent institutions. What this government, in its health care, is more concerned about is delivery of programs and meeting needs of our people.

This is a changing world, and we must be ready to meet new initiatives, new demands on our ingenuity, and this government has in the past demonstrated this ability. This speech, which we have before us, will do nothing but enhance that program and lead us to new thresholds of activity. In order to help us identify the needs and priorities of communities being serviced, we have established regional and northern health boards, so there is a direct link to the communities being served. Communication has to be one of the vital functions of government.

Respect for human dignity, as I originally cited, gives rise to our need and our drive for communication with the people who sent us here to govern. We do not govern by referendum; we do not govern by expensive votes. We are put here to make decisions, and that is what this government is doing. It is a listening government, it is a caring government, but when it comes down to the final moments, this government will make decisions and take action. We have seen that in our track record to date, and that is what we anticipate in the future.

Madam Speaker, one of the innovations that we are looking at and considering and implementing in our health care program is the presentation of nurse resource centres. This will improve the delivery of care at the community-based level. Delivery of home care services will be enhanced and promoted. Part of the respect of human dignity is that the best place for everyone, each one of us, is in our own home.

When we are feeling vulnerable, when we are at odds with society, when we are beaten down, the best place to regain our strength is in our own home, when we are sick and old and disabled, and that is what this government has recognized, not slamm ing these people into expensive institutions, not so. In the area of family services, our government is proposing to launch a comprehensive review of The Child and Family Services Act, and this obviously will of course include a period of public consultation. We are faced with many changing needs.

We have changing demographics in the city of Winnipeg; we have changing educational needs; we have changing needs of care in the province of Manitoba, but the underlying role of this government will not be to hand

December 6, 19 95 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 23 out more money. Part of that is driven of course by the fact of the reality we do not have that money to hand out, but part of it is again to respect basic human dignity that we will not be Band-Aiding prob lems; we will be helping people to help themselves. We are more concerned with what is going to happen to us in the future. We are not rushing out with a quick fix today, Madam Speaker. A Child and Youth Secr etariat has been set up, and this will anticipate problems in families to step in for early intervention with vulnera ble children.

Madam Speaker, another innovation that this government is addressing is to protect victims of crime. Our honourable colleague, the Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey), has touched on this aspect briefly, but we have heard too often in this Chamber, in our media, on the streets, in our constituencies, that the criminal carr ies on pampered, consulted, redirected, but there is an element of our society that is languishing, forgotten and neglected, and that is the victim.

It is high time that this government stands up and speaks for victims, the victims of crime, and we propose to introduce legislation into this Chamber which will address that want. Some of the areas that we are also advocating with our colleagues, the honourable colleagues of Manitoba in Ottawa, are changes to the Young Offenders Act. We also want to protect victims. We want to bring new legislation to apprehend, to penalize and to label those who prey on youth. We have seen, Madam Speaker, all too vividly in our media over the last 24 hours, the demolition of a house in St.

Catharines which related to the most heinous crime on those of our society who prey on youth. Madam Speaker, this behaviour cannot be tolerated. Today you have seen a badge on the lapel of every individual in this Chamber representing the ultimate depredation on youth, the flower of our country, who were mowed down while they were sitting in an educational institution. This is intolera ble, and this must change. We also plan to introduce legislation requmng parents to make some civil restitution to victims of property crimes committed by juveniles.

This speaks to respons ibility; this speaks to the family unit; this speaks to consequence of actions; this fits under the aegis of safer streets , better families and higher standards in our community. The family is the building block of the community, and it must be supporte d; it must be endors ed. Therefore, we in government will set standards and create policy by which this government, by which this society, will operate . Education was also an area that was firmly and vigorously addressed in the speech that was so eloquently presented to us yesterday .

We have addressed ourselves to creating centres of excellence in our education process. The blueprint in education which was intro duced in our last session will be carr ied on, and we have made a further commitment to endorse that and to implement those changes. *

(1440) Those changes touch upon creating standards in the education system, creating testing levels in the education system and greater parental involvement. I have been out in the community and been involved in youth action pro jects whereby I have heard many young people come and say that they are apprehensive. They are suffering significant angst because they think they are being educated for the wrong direction or that there will not be jobs when they graduate from whatever institution they are in.

We are addressing that, Madam Speaker, with some of the educational innovations which we are preparing and presenting to this Chamber and the people of Manitoba We are making it accessible education. We are enabling students to move from one kind of institution to another. We are saying that each child must master the basics in education so that they can meet changing technology. At the public school level we are endorsing this blueprint, and we look forward, as I say, to continued growing centres of excellence. Our Speech from the Throne yesterday outlines this, and this government endorses this direction.

We have a track record in fiscal management and in prudence in the management of the people's purse. Our

24 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 1995 background and our record has shown that, and the job creation has been one of the pinnacles of our administration of which we are most proud. We can point to increase in job creation in Manitoba over this last year of administration. The Speech from the Throne indicates that jobs and investments depend on a stable competitive economic climate. We believe that we will not create wealth by running out into the community and recirculating people's money by handing it back to them.

We will create instead an economic climate where people will be self-reliant, where people will want to come to Manitoba to do business. Madam Speaker, in the furtherance of the completion of our mandate and recognition of the trust which has been placed upon us, the Speech from the Throne yesterday said that we will give further information on how public money is being spent. We will introduce legislation to increase financial accountability of the public sector institutions.

We will tell the people of Manitoba where their money is being spent in public organizations, in public institutions and further through government, all funded by the citizen's dollar. We will do this by requiring greater disclosure of how taxpayers' money is being spent. [interjection] My learned friend across the way, Madam Speaker, is asking when, and I tell her to stay tuned. There will be innovative legislation coming forth, and I am glad that I have her attention because I want her riveted to our program.

Then our honourable colleagues in this Chamber will perhaps have the benefit of real wisdom, and they will see how real opportunity is created for the people of Manitoba. Madam Speaker, it is important to remember that governance is a continuum. When this government sets out what we intend to accomplish, we also explain what we did yesterday, what we are doing now and what we will be doing tomorrow.

We have made Manitoba one of the best places to live, to have a family, to do business and to invest. [interjection] I am getting to that, Madam Speaker, because this government has great wealth, a great wealth of ideas, a great wealth of vigour and a great wealth of innovation, and we bring that wealth of ability to the province of Manitoba, to the people in Manitoba Madam Speaker, I want to speak very briefly about how we have handled the tax record in Manitoba We passed the first balanced budget legislation in more than 20 years in this country. We did it without raising personal or corporate income taxes.

We did it without raising sales tax. We did it without raising the payroll tax, and that was for eight consecutive budgets. Madam Speaker, the balanced budget position attained by our government in partnership with all Manitobans was welcomed as the eagerly sought end to the debilitating legacy of debt and spiralling interests and irresponsibility that was rampant in this province, and I think that these following comments of third parties reflect what a marvellous outstanding achievement this appears to be.

The Globe and Mail lists Winnipeg as one of the most business friendly centres in Canada In addition, Winnipeg ranks second least expensive of 45 metropolitan manufacturing cities in all of the United States and Canada Madam Speaker, all governments dance to the tune of the money lender. Our Dominion Bond Rating Service says Manitoba's fiscal performance since 19 90 has been amongst the most favourable in Canada This is an endorsement of which we are justifiably proud. Our fiscal rating has been upgraded from A negative to A stable. This is a contrast to the situation of our federal government.

In its latest economic outlook, the International Monetary Fund urged Ottawa to adopt policies that will bring the deficit below the government's target of 3 percent of gross domestic product in the '96-97 fiscal year. Madam Speaker, our federal government would do well to adopt the model and to adopt the policies that have been presented right here in the province of Manitoba Madam Speaker, this government knows how to beat deficit This government knows how to handle money. The benefits of our fiscal frugality, of our moderation, of our skill, were recently recognized by the Province

December 6, 19 95 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 25 of Saskatchewan. I am willing to admit that our Saskatchewan colleagues are not of our persuasion, but when they praise our administration, that must be acknowledge d. The Saskatchewan budget presented intercity comparisons of taxes and household charges for 10 cities across Canada. The results for our capital are these. A single person earning $25,000 total income, the cost of living including all nondiscretionary sources of spending, we were the second lowest in the nation. For a family of four at $50,000, we were the second lowest.

For a family of four at $75,000, we were the fifth lowest. Now, according to the table of the 1995 Manitoba budget, page 14 ranks Manitoba with annual personal costs and taxes as follows : a single person earning $20,000, we are the second lowest; a family of four at $40,000, we are the lowest; and a family of four at $60,000, the third lowest cost. Madam Speaker, there is a message here.

Manitoba is a wonderful place to do business in, to invest in, to live and raise a family. * (1 450) Madam Speaker, in 19 87, under a New Democ ratic Party government, Manitoba was the top marginal income tax rate in the country-the top. This disgrace has now been remedied, and we are now the fourth lowest. We have lowered the small business tax from 10 percent in '87 down a whole percen tage point in '95 in spite of the horrendous fiscal recession that we have been working through.

Madam Speaker, you can see that we have not only kept our commi tments to pass the strongest balanced budget law in North America, but we have the strength and the moral integrity and the fortitude to enforce it and to live up to it. This is going to be legisla tion which will not only benefit our children, but we in the next ensuing years will benefit from this legislation.

Winnipeg is one of the least expensive cities in Canada to live now because the millions of dollars that we are saving in interest payments by being responsible are staying in Manitoba instead of fleeing the province of Manitoba, and it has only just begun. This AA, result-based government is a government that will find new and better ways to deliver services to Manitobans so that every tax dollar that we have under .our administration is spent to its greatest effect.

So, when you see a report like the one from the Dominion Bond Rating Service that rates Manitoba's fiscal perf ormance as one of the most favourable in Canada, it is easy to understand that this means tax relief to businesses, that this means relief in order to help stimula te governmen t, to help stimulate job creat ion. Lower taxes are essential to help attract new businesse s. Bear in mind, Madam Speaker, that every dollar that goes to servicing debt is a dollar that is not available for health, for family services, for education and for all the rest of the essential things on which government must spend.

Our government has taken initiatives in the rural areas of this province as well, and the honourable colle ague from Pembina (Mr. Dyck) will expand on these issues further. In s umm ary, Madam Speaker, I would point out to this Assembly, to my honourable coll eagues here, and I respond to His Honour the Lie utenant Governor yesterday, that Manitoba remains one of the best places in the nation to live, to work, to raise a family and to invest in a future with pride and confidenc e. An Honourable Member: Too cold. Mr. Radclitfe: We hear comments, Madam Speaker, that this place is cold.

In fact, this government has a warm heart, and in fact there will be heat coming from this government to root out waste . There will be heat to change the future , to harness the forces of government. So that we will meet the commitments of today and tomorrow, we will manage the needs of the citizens of Manitoba We recognize that this positive goal is shared by all Manitobans, and our government will continue to use this vision as a guiding framework for all the legislation, all the initiatives and the programs that are introduced in this session.

This legis lation will respect and respond and reflect the values that we hold dear,

26 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 1995 that of respect for human dignity, response to the public trust which has been vested in us, a drive to give accountability to the citizens of Manitoba of how we spend the public money. This legislation will show innovation in a hard and cruel reality of fiscal downsizing that we are all facing. It will show responsibility for the consequences of our actions, Madam Speaker. We all know in nature that for every action there is a reacti on.

There are these immuta ble laws of nature to which we are all subject, and this government will show that there will be responsibilities. Underlying all of this we have an inane, an intense-I was looking at my honourable colleague across the Chamber when I let that term slip, perhaps. We have an underlying tolerance for the multicu ltural fabric of this province, and we fundamentally, first and foremost, want to transmit to the people of Manitoba that essential self reliance which is so important for our survival and our prosperity in this province.

Madam Speaker, I thank you for this opportu nity to address these few words today. Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Madam Speaker, it is with a great sense of pride and honour that I rise today to second my government's throne speech for the Second Session of the Thirty-sixth Legislature of the Province of Manitoba. While it has been less than one year since the people of Pembina placed their trust in me by electing me as their representative to this Legislature, I feel that I have gained a lifetime of knowledge and experience in that short time.

As each day passes I have a growing appreciation of the responsibilities that I have been given and a steadfast desire to provide the constituents of Pembina with the quality representat ion they deeply deserve. When I have the opportunity to travel abroad, I am often asked by the many new people I come into contact with where I live. It is with great pride that I reply I am from Canada, the greates t country in the world.

When I travel within Canada, my fellow Canadians will often ask me where it is that I have trave lled from as well, and it is with an equal amount of pride that I answer, from Manitoba, the greatest province in Canada. Madam Speaker, when I travel within the borders of Manitoba, it is with the utmost pride that I tell nearly everyone I meet that I represent the constituency of Pembina, the greatest area in all of Manitoba. Madam Speaker, what a privilege it is to stand here today representing the greatest area in the province and the greatest province in the country in the great est country in the world.

When I reflect on the time that has passed since the April election, I become aware that I owe thanks to more people than even the time allowed for this speech would serve. Yet there are certain people to whom I owe a special debt, a debt I doubt I will ever be able to adequately repay. First and foremost is my family: my wife, Irene, and my children, Pat, Shannon, Ryan, Rob and Becky. They are the centre point of my life around which all other things revolve. They are the people I turn to for uncompromising understanding and love and from whom I draw strength.

The dedication and support that they have given me is the reason that I am here today. * (1 500) I would also like to thank my colleagues on this side of the House who have offered me many words of advice and direction as I continue to learn daily the many responsibilities of my position. Part of being a winning team is having players who are willing to lend a hand to their fellow t eammates. I can say without hesitation that this is the most dedicated, committed and unselfish team I have ever been associated with. Madam Speaker, I also extend my sincere thanks to the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) and to his colleagues on the Executive Council for granting me the privilege of seconding the Speech from the Throne. I am sure that my colleagues in the House will agree with me when I say that there are many difficult decisions and times that all governments must face. However, when you have the quality of leadership that we have as a government, you cannot help but have confidence that the hard decisions that need to be

December 6, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 27 made will be done so efficiently, effectively, and will be for the betterment of Manitoba. Finally, I would like to thank our Pages who are returning to help in the legislative process for another session. Perhaps someday in the not too distant future, these young men and women will be occupying the seats we now fill. Whatever the future holds for them, I am sure that as the next generation of leaders for our province, they will serve Manitoba well.

Madam Speaker, I would like to spend some time today talking about the economic climate in the Pembina constituency. The balanced budget legislation that our government brought into law during the last session was seen by the people of Pembina as an awakening. It was an awakening by a government that they could no longer afford to spend more than they brought in.

Madam Speaker, to the entrepreneurial and business minded people of my constituency, this was only common sense, and yet some levels of government and some members of this Legislature have not yet come to appreciate what the people of Pembina and Manitoba in general have realized. Governments, like individual households, need to be fiscally responsible. The people of Pembina have understood that by running annual deficits we were no longer borrowing on their credit but on the credit of their children.

Madam Speaker, I am not hesitant to say that there was a sense of fear in my constituency, fear about what the future held for Manitoba's young people, fear about what opportunities the children of today would find in rural Manitoba tomorrow. Yet, in the months since our government made its commitment to a balanced budget, there has been a change. There is a renewed confidence about the economic future of Manitoba.

There is a new belief that our young people will be able to find employment not just in Manitoba but in rural Manitoba There is nothing I find more disheartening than hearing that the young people of communities such as Winkler, Morden and Manitou feel that they need to move to an urban centre or another province to find employment. Having grown up in a rural community, I feel very deeply that it can offer special rewards and values that need to be maintained.

Recent developments in the agribusiness sector, developments that are directly linked to the economic initiatives that this government has put in place, have instilled a new energy in my constituency. Madam Speaker, this confidence is expressed in the conversations that I have had with my constituents on a daily basis; it is expressed in the interactions that they have with each other; and it is expressed in the interactions that they have with business and with other communities.

There is an energy that is coming from rural Manitoba, an energy that we as a government have helped create and an energy that we as a government will help maintain. Within my constituency I have witnessed growth and expansion at a rate that I have not seen equalled in my years to date. New endeavours in farm machinery manufacturing and chemical manufacturing have begun. New plants have opened that manufacture plastics as well as kitchen cabinets. Metal foundries have also become an important part of the economy of Pembina.

Flax straw paper products are being produced by the Kimberly-Clark company and the Ecusta company. The Valley Rehab Centre, a centre that employs mentally challenged individuals to help recycle paper products, adds not only to our economy but also to the lifestyles of people with special needs. Pembina is also home to the largest recreational vehicle manufacturing plant in Manitoba and has several trailer and truck box manufacturing plants. Yet, Madam Speaker, the individuals who establish and operate these businesses need more than a fresh idea and a will to succeed.

While these are certainly qualities that will help any new business prosper, the reality is that a government with a solid and a proactive fiscal plan is also a major ingredient to any healthy economy. We in Manitoba are fortunate that we have had the leadership and foresight to begin getting our fiscal house in order sooner than many other governments and have thus avoided the unfortunate circumstances they currently find themselves in.

Equally as notable, we as a government have been able to arrive at this point without increasing major taxes for eight years, a record unmatched by any government this House has seen. While our tax freeze has been met with repeated opposition by the members

28 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 19 95 opposite in the House, we as a government understand that Manitobans are paying their fa ir share and that it fa lls on the government to make do with what it has. What the business community in Pembina desires is fo r the government of Manitoba to create a climate fo r business to start, grow and succeed. Recent events show that we have created just such a climate. Business leaders have recognized that the government of Manitoba is fiscally respon sible and have begun to invest heavily in Manitoba.

In fa ct, more than half a billion dollars has been spent in our province over the past several months. By any standards, that is a ringing endorsement from businesses of the government's economic strategy. Most importantly, our citizens have begun to reap the rewards that a well-managed economy brings. Indeed, members on this side of the House have recognized that business and government need to work together and that the gains of one side do not have to come at the expense of the other.

Madam Speaker, my constituents have seen the effects of business and government working together to achieve mutually common goals, and they have been the benef actors of this relatio nship. Of course, government often needs to take a leading role. That is why I fe el, as do the constit uents and businesses of Pembina, that the fe deral-pro vincial-municipal infrastructure program needs to be ongoing. This program has been met with ov erwhelming approval in Pembina, and I call on the fe deral government, on behalf of my constituency, to renew its commitment to this initiative.

After all, if we are not willing to invest in our communities, why should we expect business to invest in them? There is no denying that the heart of the economy in Pembina revolves around agriculture. One need only drive through my constituency to arrive at this conclusion. Endless miles of fa rmland surround highways and towns, and most of the businesses in some way service and derive their income from the greater farm ing community . There is also little doubt that these are changing and uncertain times fo r Manitoba' s far mers.

The fe deral elimination of the Crow rate is a prime example of this change and uncertainty, yet I know from personal experience that those people who choose to make their living on a farm fa ce uncertainty each and every day. Every year our grain producers fa ce the prospect that one day of poor weather could destroy months of work and preparation. The very nature of farming dictates that you must be willing to adapt to change.

Anyone who has farm ed fo r a living knows that you do not do it fo r the secure and predictable lif estyle it aff ords you, so I am confident that the farmers of Pembina and Manitoba will not only survive in the fa ce of change but will prosper in the opportunity that change creates, but it is also clear that our fa rmers cannot and should not fa ce this challenge alone . That is why this government has created programs to help Manitoba's far mers through a period of transition and to develop a strong, value-added far ming base.

Madam Speaker, programs such as rural Grow Bonds and Rural Economic Development Initiatives are important steps in creating a diversified farm economy. In my own constituency, I have seen the positive effects of the rural Grow Bonds Program as Pembina has been one of the pro vince's leaders in the application. The Crocus Investment Fund has also been accessed to allow employees of a large business to buy into the company, reflecting the entrepreneurial and community spirit of my area.

Other examples of how our government is helping Manitoba farm ers adapt to change are seen in programs such as the Agricultural Diversification Loans Program and the community works program. * (1510 ) In particular, the community works program is one which shows how this pro vincial government responds to local needs in a locally foc used manner. Through this initiative, municipal cou ncils will work with local organizations such as the Chambers of Commerce and Community Round Tables to establish a community development corporation, a CDC.

The CDC will work in con junction with a local community development corporation and will establish a joi ntly funded pool of capital which can be accessed by new or expanding

December 6, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 29 local businesses. While it is certainly significant that the provincial government's contribution to this program will be $7 million, I believe that the most important part of this initiative is that it will be the local community development corporation that makes the final decision as to the allocation of the accumulated funds. Our government realizes that it is the local community leaders, those on the front lines of economic development, who are best equipped to access local propo sals.

The community works program is about an investment in the future of rural Manitoba and the young people of our province. It is an idea that is rooted in the value of common sense, a value that we have restored to government over the last eight years. Madam Speaker, if any of the members of this House are wondering this afternoon when we may begin to see the benefits of these rural initiatives, I would ask them to come and visit Pembina and the surr ounding area. They will see that we are already reaping the benefits.

In recent years, Pembina has become the heart of potato farming in Manitoba The recent announcement of McCain Foods expansion in Por tage la Prairie was, as one would expect, met with a great deal of excitement in my constituency. There are also several processing plants in the Pembina region. Sunflower, bean and meat processing are only three examples of the type of value-added activity that is taking place. So the benefits of our government's initiatives are already being harvested in our agricultural industry .

As I stated earlier, this is part of the energy that is coming from rural Manitoba that cannot help but benefit all regions, urban and rural, in Manitoba Despite the success that this government has had in its development of a value-added agricultural economy, initiatives that were announced in this throne speech promi se even more positive results. The task force that is to be established to consult with rural Manitobans in regard to future programs is a further recognition that our government is committed to working in co-opera tion with local communities to address their concerns and opportunities.

Madam Speaker, these initiatives are a clear indication that our government is not only working for rural Manitobans but is indeed working with rural Manitobans. For many years Manitobans living outside of the urban centres looked upon the future of their rural communities with a sense of pessimism. What a world of difference there is today in the attitude of rural Manitobans. Today, when I speak with my constituents, we do not talk about trying to hold onto what we have. We talk about how much more the future has to offer us and our children.

However, this optimism does not come at the expense of our fellow Manitobans living within our urban centr es. To the contrary, Madam Speaker, the economic renewal that is sweeping rural Manitoba can only help to ensure the future and prosperity of all Manitobans regar dless of where they call home. Rural Manitoba is more than happy to blaze the trail for economic prosperity in Manitoba, but it is a trail that we expect all areas and regions of our great province to follow.

I would also like to take this opportunity to talk about the importance oftourism to the province of Manitoba and to the Pembina constituency as it closely relates to the subject of economic prosperity . There are three things that I believe people remember from the trips and vacations that they embark on. The first is the things that they do at a particular destination, the second is the things that they see at that destination, and the third is the people they meet at their destination. In Pembina, as in all of Manitoba, there are a variety of activities that visitors and residents can particip ate in.

Madam Speaker, in light of the amount of snow that we have received lately, Pembina's downhill ski facility, Holiday Mountain, quickly comes to mind. In addition, Pembina offers visitors an opportunity to ice fish, snowshoe and cross-c ountry ski. During the summer months canoeing, fishing and swimming are popular activities. The beauty of the Pembina region is also notable with lakes and streams, hills and valleys. Our visitors are able to experience all that nature has to offer them.

I can say with all sincerity that if there is a friendlier brand of person than those which reside in Pembina, I await the pleasure of meeting them. I know from tra velling this great province of ours that our regions of Manitoba warran t merit as travel . destinations and that our government has implemented programs to show our many virtues to the national and

30 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 1995 international communities. We will also have an excellent opportunity to show the world what a wonderful place Manitoba is to live and visit during the 1999 Pan Am Games. In light of this opportunity and that presented by the 1997 Canada Games in Brandon and the 1996 Manitoba Summ er Games in Morden, our government has already taken steps to capitalize on the exposure our province will receive.

The establishment of the Tourism Marketing Council, which will work together with the Manitoba Tourism Education Council to train Manitoba's hospitality industry employees, will have benefits that last well beyond the 1997 and 19 99 games, Madam Speaker. I would also like to invite each member of this Assembly to visit the constituency of Pembina If you have never had the opportunity, this is a good time to see the many things it has to offer, and if you have visited before, please come by and experience the many new facilities we have to en joy.

As in most areas of Manitoba, education and the challenges that we face in education are of primary interest to the residents of Pembina While the area of Pembina has always prided itself on the quality of education and training it provides its young people, they also look to the future with a degree of anxiety. In a world that demands higher and higher levels of specialized training in order to succeed and with the dramatic reductions in transfer payments from the federal government for post-secondary education, it is clear that difficult decisions need to be made .

Yet, arising from the challenges that we face in education, are opportunities, opportunities to improve on a quality education system and meet the demands of a changing world. Today's students face a vastly different job market that demands vastly different skills from the time when I entered the workforce. This point is driven home to me each time I off er my youngest daughter help with her homework assignments. This reality means that change is inevitable. To stand still in today's environment would be to fall behind, an unacceptable alternative.

Fortunately, education is another example of where our government has seen the need to implement reform and has responded in a proactive rather than a reactive manner. With our blueprint for change in education we have established standardized testing to ensure that our students meet and exceed the established requirements and are able to compete on an international level. Parental involvement and consultation has been and will continue to be a vital part of the education renewal process as we strive to give the young people of this province every advantage as they enter the job market.

Education renewal is also taking place at the post secondary levels. By expanding the capacity of our community colleges and increasing program specialization in our universities, we are promoting the development of a workforce that will find employment in a specialized work environment. * (1 520) An important part of maintaining the economic surge Manitoba is experiencing is ensuring that there are suitably trained young Manitobans ready to step into the jobs that are being created. Our government has developed an economic climate that has created many types of employment opportunties for Manitobans.

The initiatives we have taken in education and those that we have yet to take will ensure that Manitobans are able to capitalize on this increased opportunity. Madam Speaker, the future of our province lies in the hands of Manitoba's young people, and it is incumbent upon our government to ensure that they have the necessary skills to meet that challenge. When I see students in the Winkler Bible Institute going out within the community and performing acts of charity, I feel certain that our young people have the necessary values to become worthy leaders.

Madam Speaker, this government has earned the trust of the people ofPembina and Manitoba This trust has been earned not on the words that have been spoken but rather upon actions that have been taken, actions that have seen Manitoba prosper and grow. I have trust in this government, as do the residents of my constituency, that it will continue to take the necessary actions to ensure that the young people of Pembina and

December 6, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 31 Manitoba receive an education that will prepare them for the challenges they will face now and into the next century. However, Madam Speaker, reductions in federal financial support have not only affected education programs but have also caused the government to look closely at how health care services are provided. The constituents of Pembina value affordable, accessible, quality health care, yet my constituents also realize that change to the health care system is necessary if those things that they value are to be maintained.

Their willingness to change was demonstrated by the establishment of one of the first regional health districts with the amal gamation of the Morden and Winkler hospital boards. Madam Speaker, there is a growing realization that institutionalized health care does not necessarily equal quality health care. While there is certainly a place in the health care system for this type of treatment, other community and preventative based alternatives need to be examined as well. Indeed, rural health boards are often better able to deal with the regionalized health needs and priorities of their communities.

Madam Speaker, this government recognizes that the best way to protect quality health care in light of cuts to the federal transfer payments is not to remain stagnant but rather to explore alternatives that will be fiscally responsible while still protecting the well-being of Manitobans. The ultimate goal of all Manitobans is to maintain a quality health care system that is affordable and accessible to all, and I am confident in our government's ability to achieve this goal. Madam Speaker, it is apparent that we live in a time of change, and with that change comes natural uncertainty.

Yet in this the year of Manitoba's 125th birthday we also see unequalled opportunity. Rural Manitoba has, as I described, developed an energy and excitement about its future. Our government has achieved a level of fiscal responsibility that has attracted many eager investors, so the challenges we face as a government is to properly adapt in our changing environment while capitalizing on the many opportunities we have created.

Madam Speaker, this government's throne speech has given clear direction on achieving both of these goals and is a continuation of the mandate upon which the people of Manitoba elected us in April of this year. Madam Speaker, when I was asked to second my government's throne speech, I was deeply honoured. It is with all my heart that I feel we are moving in the right direction as a province, a direction that will take us to new heights and achievements. I began my speech today by stating that I believe Manitoba is the greatest province in the greatest country in the world.

While the past 125 years have served us well, I believe that this government's initiatives will ensure that the next 125 years are even greater than the last. Thank you very much. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, contrary to custom in the House, I am not going to take the adjournm ent right now. I think we have changed the dates of the Speech from the Throne, but I think it would be ineffective in terms of the amount of time available to other speakers, so I am going to choose to exercise my responsibility and option this afternoon.

I want to again say how much it is an honour to speak on the government Speech from the Throne, their second one in this mandate, and an honour it is to represent the people of Concordia. I want to start off with a few comments that I gleaned from a community meeting in the constituency of Concordia over the weekend at a community club at a pancake breakfast.

Perhaps some of the comments and some of the advice and some of the questions I had posed to me reflect some of the intellectual and visionary challenges that we all have in this House and the kind of mixed messages we get sometimes from members opposite, sometimes from the federal government, sometimes from the society as a whole. People are grappling, Madam Speaker, with the mantra, the kind of constant theme of we have to do more with less, and they look around them and ask themselves, what is really going on in our community?

Why is the Bank of Nova Scotia announcing close to a billion dollars in profit on Wednesday, another bank on Thursday? Then we have the UI cuts on Friday, and

32 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 19 95 the appren ticeship programs are all wiped out by a national government with surpluses from an insurance program . Then, just to reflect on that, last night, when I was reading the brief speech from the government, I was watching the news at the same time, of course, and was quite intereste d to hear that the Royal Bank of Canada just announced a $1 .26 billion profit.

Now, Madam Speaker, some ofthese same people who were announcing these profits are the ones running around with members opposite saying, oh, we have to tighten our belts and blah, blah, blah and et cetera.

People ha ving pancakes and having coffee on Saturday morning where I was, a nurse, a CN worker, a worker who teaches telecom munications technology, a person in small business, kind of a variety of people, none of them rich, none of them poor, just trying to make ends meet, were asking themselves the question and asking me the question: How can a government, how can our society seem to have such overwhelming wealth on the one hand and people who are most vulnerable in our society are being cut and cut and cut? Is there not a more balanced and appropriate way to go in terms of the choices we have to make?

When we reflect on thiS-and this did not come up at the coffee conversation I had-we are now at Wall Street records, over 5,000 and climbing to 5,200, bigger increases on the TSE, not as great as the United States. We have the fe deral Auditor General coming out and saying, you know, I have a major revenue problem in this country: people are not paying taxes in terms of the corporate sector, people are not paying them soon enough, def erred taxes.

That sort of reflects and echoes onto past Auditors General that have identified some $39 billion in def erred taxe s, some of which are registered retirement savings plans, about $19 billion. * (1 530) Their Auditors General in the past have said maybe we should look at the revenue side of the equation and not just look at the spending side. Perhaps we need to have a more balanced approach to the revenues of medicare, post -secondary education, maybe we need to have a different vision than the Harri s/Klein/Filmon vision of a race to the bottom.

The Premier said he is not those people and I will talk about that in a fe w moments. I noticed he expressed a little interest in that comment and I will come back to it. I am sure he-in fact, I will come back to it for a longer period of time because he was inte rest ed. I would not want to deny him that opportunity. It is distress ing to us when we read last week that the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson) is blaming the fe deral minister. The headline is The Grinch that Stole Chris tmas.

I do not know whether the Grinch is Lloyd and the Grinchette is somebody else, but it see ms to me there is something wrong here, something does not add up when we are cutting back on money for food for kids on social assistance. At the same time we have just wealth and wealth in our society. Canada is the second richest country in the world, yet we read reports from the Fraser Institute, and members opposite perpetuate these myths, that we are a Third World country. Rem ember, the Fraser Insti tute the other day came out with a report: Canada is a Third World country.

What a shame in terms of some of the decisions that have to be made. When we look at the Spee ch from the Throne, this brief document from members opposite, there are two paths to go in terms of Manitoba, there are two appro aches to deal with our futures of our families and the quality of our communiti es. There is the path that says we have to continue to race to the bottom, that is the only way to go, we Americanize this, we slash that, we do something else over here.

Or it is the path that says Canada is a rich country, Manitoba is a prosperous place, a quality place, and we have to look at our challenges from both sides. Yes, we have to modernize our services, absolute ly, but we have to look at our capacity to share, our capacity to develop a consensus in our society. The burden of change should not always be on the most vulnerable in our socie ty, but the burden of change should be on all of us in equal measures.

In fact, some of us that may have a greater capacity to deal with these changes should carry a disproportionate burden or a more significant portion rather, I change that word -than just having a race to the bottom and the people that are most vulnera ble that are cut back.

,, December 6, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 33 Madam Speaker, when we look at child poverty statistics, when we look at food bank statistics-and this is happening in other provinces and it is not just unique to Manitoba in terms of this government and this Conservative philosophy-we see, I think, a real crying out for a national vision, for a national consensus, for national programs that allow us to use the strength of a national government to deal with our challenges rather than just running away from them and offloading from one jurisdiction which is going to offload to another jurisdiction.

I think a lot of the seven pages or eight pages that we have in this document, to my way of thinking, do not deal with the real challenges as we move into the 21s t Century. It does not deal with any of the real challenges. Oh, yes, we have seven or eight task forces. I think it is eight task forces in this document. For a government that has been in a number of years, it is quite surprising actually. It does not deal with a society where the rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer and the average family is feeling more and more squeezed.

They are worried, they are scared, and maybe today they will want to cut back programs for the people that are most vulnerable, and maybe tomorrow they will want to do something about the people that are getting richer. But we are not developing a consensus, a vision of how we can move into the 21st Century, and we do not see this in this document. We do not see a vision in this document that would start to address those problems.

We do not see the kinds of challenges that we have in a society that is becoming more and more technological, more and more part of the electronic highway, the new technology that is coming into play. We do not see any vision here on these new changes. The kinds of challenges we saw with the agricultural changes that were made in the change of the century to an industrial society, we have those same challenges. How are we going to pass on the productivity, the great creativity, the great knowledge we can use in our new knowledge machines?

How are we going to pass that technology on and maintain a middle class or an average income group so we can maintain our standard of living and improve our standard of living? We do not see that. All we are going to have is an information highway committee. Do not even have a minister responsible for it, like other provinces, New Brunswick, notably, has had for years, another committee. Where is the issue of equity?

Where is the issue of dealing with the I'm-okay-Jack kind of philosophy in North America and start to go from the me generation to the we generation, which has been more of the tradition of Manitoba, and I believe more of the tradition and values that make Canada a truly great, great country, the best country in the world to live in. We have to look at these challenges as we move along, but this speech really is a couple of new gimmicks, eight task forces and lots of federal bashing.

I thought there was even more federal provincial bashing than some of our questions of a couple of years ago may have had, and even the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) would reveal that. But that is what the Speech from the Throne really is. Let us look at the first gimmick. Let us look at Mr. Honesty. Well, you have a new embassy in Ottawa now, Madam Speaker. We could not even get close to that We have an ambassador to Ottawa now under this government with a budget of $400,000. Perhaps he should start with his own accountability. Maybe we will ask questions about the salaries in that office.

Maybe we will get more honesty and truth from the Premier on that question than how much he is paying Barry Shenkarow. I have asked, how much are you paying Barry Shenkarow under the Premier's operating-loss agreement with the Winnipeg Jets? How much is this person getting from the operating-loss agreement that the Premier signed? Now, I am happy to read today that he is unveiling the secrecy, the veil of secrecy is coming off of government programs. I was disappointed today but not surprised to hear minister after minister after minister keep things secret. How much are the new CEOs making?

Oh, cannot tell you that-got to be arm's length. How much is the Norrie review going to be? Oh, cannot tell you that. I

34 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 1995 do not know how much. Why did you not consider the data when you closed the emergency wards? We did not have data. If we did, we were not going to tell you because it makes us look like we made a mistake. We are not going to get that out to the public. There is the gimmick that this Speech from the Throne deals with that only could come from the members opposite.

This is the only government in Canada that the Ombudsman of that province has singled out fo r secrecy, has stated in the annual report under the Freedom of Inf ormation that they have to literally go back and back and back to get the most fundamental inf ormation from this government. The NDP had to sue the provincial government to get inf ormation that the Ombudsman recommended that you release a year ago on gasoline prices. The government, the Premier has admitted that he withheld all the inf ormation on lotteries until after the election, even though he had a community-by community breakdown-Mr. Honesty, Mr.

Accou ntability. Well, it is going to be quite interesting as we go through Question Period. I would like the Premier to stand up tomorrow and tell us what Barry Shenkarow is making. We are paying fo r it. You signed it-oh, I did not sign it. Who signed it? [interjection] Oh, no, no. Okay, so this is how it goes. We send the cheque to somebody who sends it to Mr. Shenkarow . We are paying fo r it, we sign it, we cover all the losses, the team has appreciated in value by 400 percent, but we are not paying for it.

We send a cheque to the Winnipeg Jets for $12 .5 million and not one cent of that money this year is going to go fo r Mr. Shenkarow's salary. I would suggest the Premier better have a consistent and honest position. I have no difficulty, we have no difficulty on this side of the House in supporting the extension of making salaries public that come from this Legislature. In fa ct, the member fo r Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) has asked fo r the salaries of the university presidents for five years and all we have got is stonewall, stonewall, stonewall from the stonewal ling Premier across the way.

We have asked that question -Mr. Shenkarow, the presidents of universities. * (1 540) So the Minister of Education (Mrs. Mcintosh), two months ago when we asked the question during the dispute, said, well, you do not want the prof essors' salaries out. We said, yes, make it all public, Madam Speaker, and we say, good. But we are going to start with the Premier. The leadership on making things public starts with him, and I am glad he has had a conversion on the road to Damascus. I am glad the sun is now shining on this Premier and this government.

We find him the most secretive person- An Honourable Member: I would not go that far . The sun is setting on this government. Mr. Doer: Well, I hope the sun is setting. It is the twilight, but it is not quite the sunset of this government's regime. But we are going to test this new policy of the Premier. He may have got his headline today, but we are going to ask him, the public has a right to know. I hope he sat down with the Minister of Telephones and said, oh, you are breaking my policies. This is a new dawn. You signed the Orders-in-Council.

These are Order in-Council appointments signed by the Premier, recom mended by the minister of Telephones, and this Premier has created contracts to hide the salaries, hide the benefits of all the Order-in-Counc il appointments. This Premier has devised a way to take the inf ormation that was fo rmerly made public to everybody in Manitoba and kept it secret. The 12 percent extra pension fo r Jules Benson secret. The 12 percent pension- An Honourable Member: How do you know about it if it is secret? Mr. Doer: Because one of your senior staff that did not get the pension went public to one of the

,. December 6, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 35 newspapers. That is how it went publ ic. I will not even tell you-no, I have to disclose. Maybe I will tell you some day who it was, because I want to be open and honest with the Premier. So what absolute hypocrisy of this government now to wrap its bodies in this open and accountable government. But we will support it. We will support the proposal, but we are going to move an amendment for it. We are going to move an amendment to start with the Premier to be honest and disclose everyth ing right there . You know the person sitting there that should be Mr.

Accountable, we are going to try to make them more accountable. Well, we will start with Barry Shenk.arow's salary in the next fe w days. Forewarned is forearmed. We will also go, the government is talking about any union. I do not know the exact words in the Speech from the Throne, it is also talking about organizations that get public money directly or indirectly from the government through dues . I personally have no problem with that I think it is a good idea I also think it is a good idea for business. Any business that gets a Community Places grant -disclosure.

Any business that gets a government contract-full disclosure. Any business that gets any business from the governm ent-fu ll disclosure . Let us have the financial sta tement ofF oster Marks and find out how much money it has got from the provincial government. KPMG-$2 million. Make that public. Biggar Ideas -remember that company? Let us make their contracts public. Let us have a financial statement from Mr. Bob Kozminski. I think we should make his statement public. Oh, what about Ami Thorsteinson?

I think his sta tement should be-he is getting money from the governm ent, he is on the board of Manitoba Hydro -should be made publ ic. Mr. Honesty, Mr. Integrity, Mr. Accountability -we will see whether you have- An Honourable Member: You know exactly how much he gets from Manitoba Hydro. It is in his 0/C. Mr. Doer: Oh, yes. We should have financial sta tements disclosed from organiza tions that get money from the provincial government. Shelter Corpora tion gets money from the provincial government for renting public housi ng-for public housing and people put in rent, right?

In fact, I have been told that they get lots of people that are renters ref erred from the Department of Housing even when there are vacancies in houses that are owned by the publ ic. I have only heard that, I do not have any-[int erj ection] Yes, well, anybody who speaks out gets fired. Just ask the person from Swan River, the wildl ife biologist, you know-there is Mr. Open ness. A wildl ife biologist talking about the trees and the wildlif e, what happens to him under the Filmon regime, the Filmon team, the Conse rvative Party?

They are suspended, they are suspended, they are suspended, and then they are transf erred and then they are fired. Mr. Sustainable Development, Mr. Honest Accountable, make it all public. So we will see whether this new-f ound conversion on the road to Damascus for honesty and integrity of information is going to really reflect itself in a consistent manner throughout its society, because we will support it. Government spending, I have always believed that public accounts should be expanded to all government operations. If the government is going to extend that to employee organizations, I say that is fair.

There should be nothing to hide. I say for all private and publicly traded corpora tions, we should have the same stan dard. You get money for Manitoba Housing, you get contracts in KPMG, you make your numbers public, your financial statement is made publ ic. So we will await the government's legislation to make sure there is some integrity and honesty in the proposals of the Premier and whether he really means that he is going to do that or whether it is just going to be cherry-picking elem ents of society that he wants to pick on.

An Honourable Member: There is a principle here; you would not know much about that. Mr. Doer: Well, the proof will be in your pudding, Madam Speaker. The Ombudsman has already spoken about your princ iples of openness and integrity, and I

36 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 1995 hope you do not fire that person. We are getting tired of you firing people that are honest. So we are pleased to see this conversion. Let us look at some other decisions the government has made in terms of honesty and integrity of inf ormation. Madam Speaker, we have seen the Lotteries Corporation. We had to bring in a private member's bill, The Lotteries Account ability Act We had to bring in a bill to require the government to provide inf ormation to communities.

It was supported by 25 cou ncils across Manitoba Did the government ever proceed with that legislation bef ore the election? No, they did not Madam Speaker, we asked the government to make public their plans on the Winnipeg Jets. Did they make it public when the Winnipeg Jets and the new ownership of the Jets filed with the Securities Commission two weeks before the election? The Premier went around the province saying, I did not know what was going on, I am going to save the team fo r $1 0 million. When Mr. Mauro and Mr.

Burns said you could not save the team unless you had a salary cap and revenue sharing agreement, the Tories were taking people out to the polls saying, we are going to save the team fo r $10 million. Surprise, surprise, a cou ple of days later, what do we find-$37 million, shares in the team, 18 percent of the team; private, secret infrastructure agreements that were signed with the provi ncial government?

And we still do not have a full accoun ting of public money that has gone into that hockey team under an infrastru cture program that never had a signed contract and never had a contract that has been made public. When the members opposite talk about honesty, integrity and accountability, you will excuse us if we guff aw and say, we will wait and see because we have not seen it in the past. Madam Speaker, when we deal with the new accountable government, I want to remind the Prem ier (Mr. Filmon) of questions I asked him about six weeks ago in the House on the emergency ward closures.

Remember that display on a Friday morning? First of al� it took us about a couple of provocations to get him to stand up because , you know, the political strategy is, make the decision, close the emergency wards down in the evening contrary to the minister's promise, which was made in July of 1994, and then to accept no responsibility fo r it and just find a way to saw off the limb fo r the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) and reverse the decision-hopefully, hopefully reverse the decision. Madam Speaker, the Premier, on October 27, would not take respons ibility. This person across the way is not Harry Truman.

The buck does not stop there. The buck stops over here, it stops over there, it stops up there, it stops over there. I mean, I remember a couple of years ago he blamed God and nature fo r the decrease in the GDP. Now, when we ask the Pr emier about who made the decision, he said, those decisions have been made collective ly. Those decisions were made by the various hospitals. I asked him a second question: Who made the decision? Did the chair of cabinet, the Premier, make the decision? "The member opposite said I ordered the closure of those. That is wrong. That is fa lse, and that is not appropria te ....

" Then he goes on to say, I did not make the decisions . Those decisions were made "as a result of consensus flowing from all the various investigations"-none of the investigations he flowed. The fo urth question, who made the decision? Did it go to cabinet? Did the Prem ier approve it? "The decisio ns that are made collectively by the government are made on the basis of a consensus arr ived at by the governmen t." Not once did the Premier say, I chair cabinet. The Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae), who closes emergency wards down in the evening, reports to me.

I make the ultimate decision and I made it fo r X, Y and Z reasons because they were good fo r us or they were bad fo r us. Never once was the Premier accoun table in questions in the Question Period. Never has he accepted responsibility fo r making decisions that aff ect the health of Manitobans. * (1 550) Again, another example of this new, I hope this new value we will see in government where the Premier

.. December 6, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 37 actually is accountable himse lf, new accountability, accepted responsibility, and we will welcome this change if it is to manifest itse lf, because it has certainly been opposite to our experience and the experiences of Manitobans in the past period of time. (Mr. Ben Sveinson, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) Mr. Acting Speaker, we note that the government is making a lot to do about the fe deral government cuts and we agree to some extent that the cuts are serious. We did not support the cuts last spring.

We do not support the cuts that will be intro duced or implemented in the '96-97 fiscal year. But I also think the government, if it is going to be open and accountable under the new regime, this newf ound value, should be honest with all the numbers with the people of Manitoba. You should put all the numbers on the table. The member for River Heights (Mr. Radcliffe) and the member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck) who just spoke on the Speech from the Throne have a responsibility to put all the numbers on the table.

You cannot say we are going to be open and accountable with everybody in Manitoba and then choose to be one-sided or one coin on your numbers here in Manitoba. In the middle of July last year the government released its fourth quarter report. Now I was always curious during the election campaign how the government could say that we did not incorpo rate the . $87 million in cuts in the second year proj ections, and we will not cut-the Pr emier's (Mr. Filmon'

s) words-any health care or educa tion or vital services. I was always curious about how they were going to do that. We said we would not elimina te the payroll tax. The government was also promising to elim inate the health and post-secondary tax, another $200-million item. So they had $220 million from the fe deral government, $200 million for an election promise, and they were not going to touch any of these other program s. What we found very curious, Mr.

Acting Speaker, is in July, a matter that was not covered much by the media, and I guess that is why the government released it under -1 guess the open accountability is going to take place in the middle of July, you know, on a Friday afternoon. Here it is. Read it on your way to the barbecue. But what we noticed was there was $1 45 million more than budgete d. You budgeted for an increase in equalization and on top of that it was $145 million more in revenue from equalization. On top of that there was $30 million more in EPF payments for a total of$17 5 million. I am giving the me

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-2-2
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 2nd hansardpdf 2.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	3f18f3397aa7c39a13e312970e311a3a4e6012cd

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