Manitoba Hansard — 15 July 1986 (Sitting 46A, 33rd Legislature, 1st Session)

33-1-46a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 15 July, 1986. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Madam Spe aker. MADAM SPEAKER, Hon. M. Phill ip s: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Burrows. MA. C. SANTOS: Madam Speaker, the Commit tee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same, and asks leave to sit again. Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for lnkster, that the Report of the Commit tee be received. MOTION presented and carried.

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Mi nister of Education. HON. J. STOAIE: Madam Speaker, it's my privilege to table the Annual Report of the Teachers' Retirement Al lowances Fund Board for the year 19 85. MADAM SPEAK ER: Notices of Mo tion . . . Introd uction of Bills . . INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MADAM SPEAK ER: Before we proceed to Oral Questions, I would like to direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have 10 students from the Business Learn ing Opportunities for Native Youth under the direction of Miss Verna Mentuck.

On behalf of all the members, I welcome you to the Legislature this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Manitoba Lotteries Commission Review MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MA. G. FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speaker, my question is to the Premie r. The question is: Is his government still commit ted to a freedom of information policy? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Yes, Madam Speaker . The Attorney General has dealt with a number of questions during this Session pertaining to the eventual proclamation of the legislation. MA. G.

FILMON: In view of that answer, Madam Speaker, will the Premier then instruct his Minister responsible for Lotteries to share copies of the Review of the Manitoba Lotteries Commission, the lottery system, that was done by three Manitoba Lotteries Foundation directors and the former Deputy Minister, Mr. AI Miller? Will he have that report shared with mem bers on this side of the House so that we can know and understand what is being recommended with respect to lotteries? HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I will ensure that I have a copy of the report myself and then it will be shared with honourable members across the way. I'm sure that can be done very expeditiou sly. MA. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, I'm delighted to hear that the Premier is willing to do it. I just suggest to him that there are already 10 umbrella groups who have copies of that report, and I suggest that members of the Legislature, duly elected representatives of the people of Manitoba, should not be left to the end to receive it ... MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have a question? MA. G.

FILMON: . . . so will he ensure that we receive that copy today? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'v e answered the question. MA. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, I'm asking the Premier whether he'll ensure that we get a copy today? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, we don't in any civilized society respond to demands today, tomor row, but as expeditiously as possible. I will be obtaining a copy, mem bers on this side, and it will be shared with members on that side. MA. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, is it the policy of the government to send the report out to 10 different umbrella organizations representing many other people in Manitoba and not to have members of the Opposition, duly elected representatives of this province, have a copy of that report? HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I'm not acquainted with the particular report. lt is my understanding that it's an internal report, an internal report that affects a number of groups and organizations, some 10 groups in total I'm advised, and it is principally a matter that those particular client groups ought to, by way of courtesy, have an opportunity to examine prior to. They represent, I understand, the voluntary organizations of 1783

Tuesday, 15 July, 1986 this province that participate in athletic, cultural and other pursuits. Madam Speaker, I think out of courtesy to those groups and to all those volunt eers and individuals that the Minister was certainly quite right in ensuring that they have a copy in advance for their own edification and discussion purp oses. The Min ister will be distributing it to both government and Opposition caucuses forthwith. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker , is the Premier suggesting that the members of the Legislature do not deserve the same courtesy? HON. H. PAWLEY: No, Madam Speaker. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, then if the Premier believes that courtesy ought to be extended to mem bers of the Legislature sitting here in Opposition, who want to review that report and its recommendations, will he ensure that it's tabled today? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker , I indicated that this was an internal document that would be made public and fully available to all mem bers of the House. The document has been made available to those groups that are n.ost interested in discussion pertai ning to same. I'm delighted that honourable mem bers are interested in it, and it will be made available to them. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, these umbrella groups, in my understand ing, received the report back in May. We are talking now about a matter that is to be discussed in the Comm ittee of Supply before this Legislature, and mem bers of this side of the House are being denied the opportunity to review it and prepare for those Estimates. Will the Premier not take some action on behalf of freedom of information, a policy which he says he supports, and give it to members of the Legislature on this side now? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker , I seek some advice from you as to repe titious questions.

I'v e already indicated it will be made available as expeditiously as we can. MADAM SPEAKER: Sometimes it is very hard for the Speaker to determine until the question is totally out whether it's repetitious or not. Brandon University - Parkins' settlement MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker , carrying along further on the freedom of information policy, will the Premier now instruct his Minister of Education to demand of the Board of Brandon University that they release the document that involves the settlement between the University of Brandon and Dr. Perkins?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honou rable Min ister of Education. HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speaker, I have dealt with this question on a number of occasions. I indicated to the Leader of the Opposition and members opposite that the Brandon University Board of Governors have an opinion, a legal opinion, which I have confirmed that they should not release it because it could do damage to the settlement which has been negotiated.

I have indicated on a number of occasions, Madam Speaker, that Brandon University is an autonomous board of 17 individuals who reached the decision some time ago that change was required in leadersh ip; that change has been implemented. Madam Speaker, they were empowered to negotiate a settlement; they did that. I believe it resolves one of the fundamental and outstanding issues which has concerned the community for the past several years. Madam Speaker, it resolves an issue which has done no good to Brand on University nor to the relationships between the individuals involved in that university. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, is the Minister willing to table that legal opinion? HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speaker, I did not record my telephone conversation with legal counsel for Brandon University, but I can indicate, and I'm sure that the member could confirm that advice by writing to the Brandon University Board of Governors or contacting the chairperson of that Board of Governors, that question has been raised in my own mind several times. I have indicated that I am not completely satisfied with the way this matter has been dealt.

Madam Speaker, I have indicated on other occasions, however, that I am satisfied that the matter is resolv ed, that Brandon University has resolved the questions that I have raised with them with respect to the settlement, its implications for the ongoing operations at Brandon University. Madam Speaker, I believe members opposite have been apprised of the substance of that agreement. There is a continuing - (Interject ions) - Madam Speaker, I believe they have been apprised of the substance of that agreement, which is essentially Mr. Perkins continues as a Faculty of Education mem ber.

There was a cash settlement of less than $40,000, funds to a pension over a number of years, and that is the sum and total of that negotiated settlement, Madam Speaker. The terms of the agreement - I have not seen it, but those are my understandings. Brandon University is an autonomous board. They have a legal opinion which prevents them, they believe, from releasing all of the details and aspects of that agreement. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, the substance of the settlement has been conveyed to us by Free Press reports, reports that members opposite have said we shouldn't rely upon.

Madam Speaker, my question is for the Premie r. In view of the fact that the lawyer works for the Board of Brandon University and is not responsible to this Minister, but in view of the fact that the board is 1784

Tuesday, 15 July, 1986 responsible to this Minister through its appointments and through its funding, will the Premier instruct his Min ister to demand that the Perkins' settlement be made public to clear the air? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I already indicated Friday that I would like to see this report made public. I indicated to mem bers of the House that I would send that request to the Board of Governors of the Brandon University; that has been done. If something does not happen within the next few days, I will consider further action. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, is the Premier indicating that he has sent a request in writing to the Board of Brandon University to make it public? HON. H. PAWLEY: That is precisely what I said. Canadian Union of Public Employees - withdrawal of services MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Charleswood. MR. J. ERNST: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Through you to the Minister of Labour, has the Minister had any discussions with the City of Winnipeg about the possible withdr awal of services by the Canadian Union of Public Empl oyees? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Mini ster of Labour. HON. A. MACKLING: No, Madam Speaker.

MR. J. ERNST: Does the Minister intend to talk to the City of Winnipeg with respect to the possible withdrawal of services by the Canadian Union of Public Emplo yees? HON. A. MACKLING: The short answer to that question, Madam Speaker, is no, but I'm sure the honourable member wouldn't be satisfied with just that brief an answer. The role of the Minister of Labour is not to intervene in the bargaining or even in the areas where parties are at dispute . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. HON. A.

MACKLING: . . . is not to intervene, Madam Speaker, unless or until one of the parties or both of the parties have indicated their inter est in having the Department of Labour give assistance to them. We hold ourselv es out to assist any party involved in a labour relations dispute at any time. MR. J. ERNST: Madam Speaker, although the question is some what hypothetical, I think it is sufficiently important that it be asked.

In the event of a withdr awal of service, particularly those of essential service areas, will the Minister then act in terms of either legislating people back to work or other activity? 1785 MADAM SPEAKER: That question, as the member indicated, is quite hypothetical, not sort of hypothetical. MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker, on a point of order. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Opposition House Leader. MR. G.

MERCIER: lt has been a long-time tradition and practice of this House to ask questions of the government relating to their contingency plans in the event of floods, strikes, company walkouts, etc., and this question is in order. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J.

COWAN: Madam Speaker, this House is made up of many long-time traditions and practices, and I'm certain you will recall, as no doubt mem bers opposite, including the Opposition House Leader, that when discussing matters such as strikes, it has generally been considered that those questions are hypothetical and out of order until a strike has actually taken place. Even the member ... MR. G. FILMON: You guys asked it all the time when you were in Opposition. HON. J. COWAN: The Leader of . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Could we please hear the advice of the Ho nour able Government House Leader? HON. J.

COWAN: The present and current Leader of the Opposition indicates from his seat that we ask questions all the time regarding strikes. I'm certain if he were to go back and review Hansard as to when those questions were asked and the responses, he will find that from time to time the responses indeed were that the questions were hypothetical and out of order. Even the member who posed the question, in structuring his

preamble, said to you, and I heard him distinctly, "Ma dam Speaker, this question may be somewhat hypothetical .'' Well, indeed, if it is somewhat hypothetical then it is at least somewhat out of order. For that reason we on this side would not be opposed to the memb er rephrasing the question, so in his mind even it is not hypothetical, and he can be comfortable with the fact that he is operating within the general practices of this House. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Opposition House Leader. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. I would like to now hear the advice again of the Honourable Opposition House Leader. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Tuesday, 15 July, 1986 Madam Speaker, it is absolutely ridiculous to suggest in this House that members of the Opposition should wait until a strike is called before we can ask members of the government about their contingency plans. Surely, with a strike looming on the horizon, it is the duty and responsibility of mem bers of the Opposition to ask questions about the contin gency pla ns of the government with respect to a strike. I, therefore, suggest the question is in order.

MADAM SPEAKER: My understanding of the question from the Honourable Member for Charleswood was that it was phrased in a quite hypothetical way, and that it said, if, if, if. On the other hand, if the honourable member would like to ask a question of a Minister of the government as to whether or not they have contingency plans, that's quite a different matter. The way he phrased his question was certa inly hypothetical. The Honourable Member for Charleswood. MR. J. ERNST: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Taking your advice then, does the Min ister have any conti ngency plans with respect to the pos sible withdrawal of service? MADAM SPEAKER: The Hono urable Minis ter of Labour. HON. A. MACKLING: Sorry, Madam Speaker, I believe I know the nature of the honourable member's question, but would he put it precisely for me, please? MR. J. ERNST: Does the Min ister, Madam Speaker, have any contingency plans respecting the potential withdrawal of service by the Canadian Union of Public Emp loyees from the City of Winnipeg? HON. A.

MACKLING: Madam Speaker, I think it is unfair to the parties who are involved in industrial disputes that questions should be put in this forum to ask, what if resolution of that dispute does not occur. I think it does a disservice to the collective bargaining process when questions are put here during the course of collective bargaining. I don't think that's fair to the parties, and I don't think that it helps in those parties trying to reach resolution to their disputes that other parties intervene or signal that they are going to intervene.

I think that's a mistake, and I think the honourable member should not pursue those questions. MR. J. ERNST: Madam Speaker , on a point of order, I don't think, first of all, that the Min ister should be imputing motives to myself with respect to asking of these questions. Contingency plans are a concern. Contingency plans are a necessity in this day and age when we deal with these kinds of issues. MADAM SPEAKER: Did the honourable member want to ask a question, or was he only rising on a point of order?

A disagreement over an answer a Minister gives is not a point of order - (Interject ion) - although The Honourable Member for Charleswood. MR. J. ERNST: Madam Speaker, I am afraid perhaps I wasn't quite clear enough with respect to the point of order. The concern I had was, the Minister was imputing motives to myself as to why I should not be asking these questions in this House. HON. A.

MACKLING: Madam Speaker, I want to make it quite clear that I wasn't, in my answer, indicating that the Ho nour able Memb er for Charl eswood was knowingly doing or asking questions which would interfere with the bargaining process. I was indicating to him my concern that line of questioning ought not to be pursued in the House during the course of collective bargaining, because I don't think it provides those parties with the objectivity and the fairness in trying to resolve difficult disputes among themselves when outside influence is brought to bear upon them when they don't invite it.

MADAM SPEAKE R: The Honourable Member for Pembina on the point of order? MR. D. ORCHARD: No, Madam Speaker, I thought we were in question period. MADAM SPEAKER: I have a point of order on the floor that the Honourable Minister was responding to. I think the Min ister was expressing his opinion. I did not see that he was imputing motives. He was giving his interpr etation of a situation. MTX -aud it, Saudi Arabia MADAM SPEAKE R: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is for the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System.

Given that last year at the Public Utility hearings the projected loss for MTX was esti mated at $50,000 and today we find that the loss approaches $375,000, and given that accounts receivable of some $8 million are deemed to be in precarious collection position, will the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System finally ask his colleague, the Minister of Finance, for the Auditor's Department to undertake an independent audit of all activities of MTX in Saudi Arabia which now appear to be hemorrhaging substantial funds from the Manitoba Telephone System?

MADAM SPEAKE R: The Honourable Min ister of Labour. HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker, I think that the Honourable Member for Pembina does a disservice to the MTX in now placing in the House questions which an officer and officers of the MTX have taken as notice. We are before a comm ittee of the House. He has asked question s. As a matter of fact, I gave the honourable member a copy of a financial statem ent, the better for him to analyze and be prepared to ask questions. He asked a great many questions in comm ittee this morning.

I didn't object to the fact that he could have given us a little notice so that we could have responded in detail to those questions, because he had that report for over 1786

Tuesday, 15 July, 1986 a week and chose not to ask me the further questions so that I could give that information. Rather, Madam Speaker , he poses questions now, indicating that there is a calamity involved. Madam Speaker . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. Is the Minister indicating that this comm ittee has not yet reported to the House? HON. A. MACKLING: That's right, Madam Speaker. We haven't comp leted our examination of the MTS, and the MTX is very much before that comm ittee. The honourable member has asked a number of questions, and I've undertaken to provide that information. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Madam Speaker . . . MADAM SPEAKER: One moment please. Even though that commit tee has not yet reported to the House, I apologize - I thought that was the report we had this morning - the question is in order in that it relates to information before the comm ittee, not proceed ings of the comm ittee. The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. A.

MACKLING: Madam Speaker, as I indicated, the honourable member will receive every cooperation from this Minister and I will ensure that all of the information he has sought, and quite properly so - before the commit tee - will be provided to him, members of the comm ittee and this House. But what I indicate, Madam Speaker, as my concern, during the process of getting the information that he se eks, th e honourable mem ber uses part of the information and hypothecates a very doubtful scenario of difficulty for MTX or the corporation.

The honourable member will be informed during the course of the comm ittee hearing that MT X is project ing an improvement in its operations in Saudi Arabia. We know, Madam Speaker , that there have been very difficult times for the oil ind ustry internationally and Saudi Arabia's fortunes ride and depend very heavily on the oil industry, so there has been a period of economic maladjustment and this corporation - the MTX, who are involved in Saudi Arabian contracts - has suffered as a result of that and the honourable mem ber is aware of that.

Before the commit tee completes its hearings, I will be able to put further information before the mem ber and all mem bers of the House. MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker , a new question to the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System.

In view of the fact that Manitoba ratepayers, through the Manitoba Telephone System, are now subsidizing teleco mmu nication services in Saudi Arabia to the tune of we don't know how many hundreds of thousands of dollars, would the Min ister responsible not deem it prudent to refer the matter to the Provincial Auditor, so that an independent outside review of MTX money losing activities in Saudi Arabia are fully investigated so that Manitoba ratepayers are protected? MADAM SPEAKER: The honourable member phrased his question as to seek an opinion. Whether the Minister thinks it's prudent or not is not relevant.

Could he please rephrase the last part of his quest ion? We got the

preamble fine. MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, would it be within this Min ister's resp onsibili ty to assure Manitoba Telephone ratepayers to an independent inquiry by the Provincial Auditor that the hemorrhaging of funds in MTX will not continue on, and have an investigation by the Provincial Auditor's Office, to assure Manitoba ratepayers that they are not going to continue to lose money and subsidize Saudi Arabians at the same time that this government goes to the Public Utilities Board for four rate increases that Manitobans have to pay? HON. A.

MACKLING: Ma dam Speaker , I reject categorically the highly colourful language that the honourable member uses in the premise he makes that the MTX is hemorrhaging hundreds of thousands of dollars. Madam Speaker, the corporation is involved in investments in expanding techno logy. We don't say in every case we'll always be 100 percent profitable, but this corporation is going to use its expertise and its technology to assist the taxpayers of Manitoba and a proper accounting will be obtai ned before the comm ittee and reported to this House.

Government buil dings, sale of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I direct my question to the Minister of Finance. The Minister has provided for me a copy of a

schedule of former government buildings that have been sold by this gover nment to priva te shareholders and Manitoba Properties Inc. for the pu rposes of raising badly-needed money, roughly $400 million, in part to service the growing deficit of this province and total accumulated debt, Madam Speaker. My question: Can the Minister indicate when and how the government will buy back from these private shareholders the Concert Hall at a value of $25.45 million? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Finance. HON. E.

KOSTYRA: The premise to the member's question is that the assets have been put over to private shareholders. As the member knows, from the very detailed explanation and discussion we went through in terms of the review of the Estima tes of the Department of Finance which concluded yesterday, that those assets belong to Manitoba Properties Inc., which is wholly owned, in terms of common shareholders, by the Province of Manitoba. MR. C. MANNESS: Mada m Speaker , it's my understanding that the security offered to preferred sha reholders are the buildings thems elves.

My suppl ementary questi on: When and how will the government purchase back the new Earth Sciences Building and the Duff Roblin Building and some 67 1787

Tuesday, 15 July, 1986 other University of Manitoba campus buildings, totalling $257 million? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Madam Speaker, again I will repeat my an swer. Those buildings are part of Manitoba Properties Inc., which is under the control of the Province of Man itoba. The structure of Mani toba Properties is the same, has been the case with respect to other governments in Canada, including the Province of British Columbia.

In fact just recently the Province of Saskatchewan, after reviewing Manitoba's experience, has instituted the same form of property management in the public sector in the Province of Saskatchewan. MR. C. MANNESS: A final supplement ary, Madam Speaker. The Minister refuses to answer my question. I would ask him finally: Were the senior administration at the University of Manitoba Campus given prior notice of the fact that ther e was going to be a change in ownership with respect to all the buildings at the campus, and did they receive some consideration in view of that change of ownership? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Madam Speaker , in response to the first question, yes, there were consultations with the University of Manitoba. In regard to the question of considerat ion, I'm not aware of any considerations - whatever that might mean. Disability Insurance - discrimination HON. E. KOSTYRA: In regard to the question that I took as notice yesterd ay, or the day before yesterday, from the Member for River Heights, I'd like to provide a response to that question she asked me with regard to the long-term disability insurance plan for Manitoba civil servants, particularly dealing with the area of mental health problems.

I should point out for the member's information that the long-term disability plan of the Government of Manitoba is one that is arrived at through collectiv e bargaining with the government emplo yees. Psychotic disorders are presently subject to the same coverage as any other disability under the plan. The one area that there is some disagreement on is non-catastrophic nervous disorders or neurosis which are subject to a six-month time limit.

I'm informed that time limit was originally agreed to by the Canadian Mental Health Association and subsequently they changed their position on it and expressed some concern. The staff of the Civil Service Commission is meeting with that association to see if there can be some changes made to the plan. Once there is some understanding of the position of the CMHA, there will be the usual discussions with the collective bargaining agent. Break-ins and burglaries - residential MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker , I have a question for the Attorney-General.

Madam Speaker, could he inform the House, with respect to residential break-ins and burglaries for the year 1985, that the City of Winnipeg ranked fifth highest in the country out of 16 major urban centres? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Madam Speaker, I'll take that as notice, so that I can provide the mem ber and mem bers of the House with comparative statistics that relate to year over year in Winnipeg and with respect to other major urban centres. MR. G.

MERCIER: Madam Speaker, in view of the report from the Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics out of Ottawa that Manitoba did in fact rank fifth highest in the country with respect to this matter, can the Attorney-General indicate to the House what steps he is taking to reduce the number of residential break ins and burglaries, in view of the fact that we have continually brought to his attention over the past number of years significant increases year over year? HON. R. PENNER: I have already said I'll take the question as notice with respect to a full picture of where we stand statistical ly.

While it is true that from time to time the Member for St. Norbert has indicated what every body knows, that is, that crimes in various categories from time to time are on the increase, I could tell him that the day he comes up with the solution to the problem he ought to patent it and make a couple of billion bucks. Nobody has to this date, and the Member for St. Norbert has never been able to offer a solution to the fact that crimes are committed.

In fact, what is known is that there is a fairly close relationship between property crimes, which is the issue that has been raised, and the social conditions that keep a very large number of people in poverty. In fact, under our government, the incidence of poverty and of unemplo yment has decreased comparatively as a result of the economic activities of this government. I think that, when I produce the statistics, he will note that the incidence of property crimes has in fact on the whole gone down. MR. G.

MERCIER: Madam Speaker, I have made suggestions to the Attorney-General over the past number of years, none of which he's accepted, and probably this accounts for the continual increase. Madam Speaker, perhaps in taking the question as notice, does he consider that the Canadian Centre of Justice Statistics out of Ottawa is in correct in the statistical information they put out from time to time, because there is a continuing flow of statistics from them? In fact, my impression is that the Attorney General perhaps was contributing in a small way in terms of a grant to that organization. HON. R.

PENNER: Madam Speaker, the nub of the question is, where have we been and where are we going? For example, was it the case, as I suspect it was, that when the Member for St. Norbert was the Attorney-General, Winnipeg ranked first and now we're fifth? Is it the case that in fact, with respect to property 1788

Tuesday, 15 July, 1986 crimes, the increase in property crimes in Winnipeg is less than in most other major centres? These are questions which I want to be able to provide answers to the House in a full context. lt doesn't tell me very much to say that we're fifth and not tenth. lt tells me that we're not first in any event, but I want to know in fact what the trends are, rather than where we stand in relationship to other cities. No two cities in Canada are exactly the same with respect to the incidence of various crimes.

Vancouver and Montreal rank the highest with respect to drug crimes by far, but there are particular reasons for that. Some cities - (Interjection) - well, I've been asked the question. I would like to be able to answer it, unless the mem bers opposite don't want the information. Some cities, for example, such as Regina, are higher with respect to the incidence of violent crimes than others. There may be historical reasons for it. Let's look into the whole picture. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. May I remind Honourable Min isters that answers should be brief. The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR.

G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker, is the Attorney General telling the people of the City of Winnipeg that they have to accept being the fifth-highest city in this country with the fifth-highest level of residential break ins and burglaries? HON. R. PENNER: The people of the City of Winnipeg might ask the civic administration in the City of Winnipeg why the administrative costs of the City of Winnipeg Police have increased so much, compared to the increase in the number of line policemen on the streets. They might ask that question.

They might ask the proper authority, name ly, the City of Winnipeg, which runs its police force on its own, why the City of Winnipeg Police have not been able to cope with that problem any better than they have rather than asking the Attorney-General. AIDS by name. That is in accordance with an agreement that the Commission has reached with the community mostly affected by it. Those infected with AIDS virus are reported by code again with an agreement that we have with the community that is mostly affected. The Pas -handicapped housing facility MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MRS. S.

CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Housing. A 15-bed handicapped housing facility combined with 15 personal care beds has been promised for The Pas over the past three years with an appropriate home care budget in place during that time. Can the Minister confirm that this project will indeed begin construction in this year? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Housing. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Madam Speaker, I'll take that question as notice. MRS. S.

CARSTAIRS: Would the Minister also take as notice that, in light of the fact that the 200,000 over tender was rejected last year by MHR C and that the lowest tender this year is also 80,000 over, will this not prevent the building of the centre? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Ma dam Spe aker, it's my understa nding that we're in the process of looking at the increased costs to find out exactly where the overage is. After they have done that, they will be making a recommendation. MADAM SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired . INTRO DUCTION OF GUESTS (Cont'd.) MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St.

MADAM SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Min ister of Vital. Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Yesterday , I took as noti ce a que stion from the Honourable Member for Pembina. I' d like to answer it today. Before that, I'd like to elabor ate a bit on one of the answers I gave him yesterd ay. He wanted to know if the AIDS screening test was the same as the one used by the Red Cross for the donors. I said that, basically it was the same. The basic test is the same. it's used by Cadham Lab and the Red Cross. it's the Eliza test.

Now if the results are positive, then the Cadham uses the IFA test and the Red Cross uses a more complex western block test, and I'm told that those are just as effe ctive. Now as far as using the PH IN system in dealing with the AIDS in this province and those carrying AIDS antibodies, I would like to inform the members of this House that, in those cases, the AIDS cases are reported MR. J.

WALDING: Madam Speaker, on a point of order, I bring to your attention that there is in the loge to your right a former member of this House. lt has been the traditional practice of the House to extend the courtesy of a recognition to former members attending. MADAM SPEAKER: The honourable member does not have a point of order. He just happens to be a little faster on his feet than I. I would certainly like to welcome, on behalf of all the mem bers, the former Member for Kildonan who is in the loge to my right. COMMI TTEE CHANGES MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ell ice. MR. H. SMITH: Thank you. 1789

Tuesday, 15 July, 1986 I'd like to announce changes in the Public Utilities Comm ittee: the Member for Churchill substituting for the Member for Kildonan; the Member for Rossmere substituting for the Member for St. Johns. ORDERS OF THE DAY HOUSE BUSINESS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J. COWAN: Madam Speaker , if I can check very quickly with the Opposition House Leader, if it would be agreed to have the next Stan ding Comm ittee continue to consider the report of MTS on Thursday, we can agree to that at this time. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Opposition House Leader. MR. G.

MERCIER: Madam Speaker , we would be prepared to go ahead with that comm ittee on Thursday if the House Leader can assure us that MTS will have the answers to the questions that have been asked. HON. J. COWAN: Not being certain of exactly what questions are outstanding and how long it will take to prepare them, I have received some assurance from the Minister responsible for Manitoba Telephone System that every effort will be made to have as many of the answers available as is possible. MR. G.

MERCIER: Madam Speaker , perhaps on that basis then, the commit tee could proceed on the understanding that if any of the answers are not available that the comm ittee would adjourn until some future date when they will be available. HON. J. COWAN: I think perhaps what we should do in the interests of expediting the business of the House overall and ensuring that full and com plete information is available, as required, is to have the meeting of the commit tee, to attempt to answer all the questions that have been posed and will be posed.

Of course, in the past, as has been the case from time to time, if there are questions that flow during the meeting that can't be answered at that particular time, there is always the option of adjourning the meeting and continuing at a later date, completing the allotted time for the meeting that day, and continuing at a later date, or accepting those questions as questions that will receive answers in another form, either in the House or in written form, after the comm ittee has considered the report. Those options are all available to us.

I know members opposite, even the Member for Pembina, wants to expedite the business of the House as much as possible, and we 'll attempt to cooperate in doing that. - (Interject ion) - The Member for Lakeside says that they did that with Flyer and they're still waiting for answers - (Interject ion) - Hydro. And they're still waiting for answers. I think he should realize that those answers are provided in due course throughout this Session, and beyond, as the answers become available. There is certainly no intent on this side of the House not to provide full informa tion.

I hope he is not suggesting that is the case. Given that correction and the assurance, we shall have the meeting proceed and see what happens as a result of the questions posed at that time. While I'm on my feet , and hoping that it is not as difficult to get us into the next matter of business, I move, seconded by the Opposition House Leader, that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Comm ittee of Supply to consider an amount to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION pres ented and carried and the Ho use resolved itself into a Comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be gr anted to Her Ma jesty with the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for Civil Service; and the Honourable Member for Kildonan in the Chair for the Department of Business Development and Tourism. CONC URRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT AND TOURISM MR. CHAIRMAN, M. Dolin: Comm ittee, come to order. We are on Page 24, Resolution No. 23, Item 2, Business Development - the Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. E.

CONNERY: The Minister was going to supply me with some more information. I got some from her; it is somewhat incomplete. There was one company HON. M. HEMPHILL: I have Daerwood. MR. E. CONNERY: You've got Daerwood? HON. M. HEMPHILL: I've got Daerwood here, so we'll send Daerwood down. Were there any others that weren't complete? MR. E. CONNERY: I think most of them were replied to. HON. M. HEMPHILL: We lump ed some of them together. MR. E.

CONNERY: I'd like the Minister to explain the Daerwood one, how we could be into them for $72,000 in total when there really was no program for this sort of thing. it's not through the Jobs Fund; it's not Core Area. Under what grant form did they get this money? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, that money was received under the Manitoba Int erest Rate Relief Program. MR. E. CONNERY: What was the maximum for the Interest Rate Relief Program? HON. M. HEMPHILL: it's a $1 2,000 grant, $6,000 repayable and $6,000 forgivable. MR. E. CONNERY: What was it again, please? I didn't hear. 1790

Tuesday, 15 July, 1986 HON. M. HEMPHILL: $6,000 repayable and $6,000 forgivable. MR. E. CONNERY: Under what program? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Manitoba Interest Rate Relief Program. MR. E. CONNERY: I thought the Interest Rate Relief Program was a maximum of $6,000.00. That's the largest loss, I think, that you took, isn't it? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, that was for two years. MR. E. CONNERY: Were people allowed to participate in more than one year? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr. Chairman. About 60 percent of the companies went for two years. MR. E. CONNERY: But there's nobody that went beyond the 6,000 in them? HON. M.

HEMPHILL: That's right. MR. E. CONNERY: Except Daerwood went twice. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister is indicating in the affirmative. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Sixty percent of them went twice. MR. E. CONNERY: Yes, Daerwood went twice for 6,000 HON. M. HEMPHILL: Right. MR. E. CONNERY: . . . where everybody else had a maximum of 6,000 if they went twice, or are they in other years? HON. M. HEMPHILL: They could all go up to the 12 ,000 if they qualif ied in the second year. MR. E. CONNERY: Where does the other 60,000 come in this year? I'm not satisfied with that. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Chairman, the $60,000 is described as a one year only grant based on loan, based on crisis support, and the loan is fully secured and subject to a monthly repayment schedule. MR. E. CONNERY: Would this be through Cabinet decision then because there is not a program to provide that sort of money? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. E. CONNERY: lt didn't come out of the Jobs Fund; it came out of Business Development money? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. E.

CONNERY: On Gadient in the Design Assistance - and then when we can discuss the Design Assistance 1791 Program after, we haven't discussed it - the Gadient Manufacturing, the Design Assistance Program, it was my understanding that there was a maximum of $1 ,000 gov ernment assistance, and one firm received $5,555.00. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr . Chairman, it's my understanding that the grants are normally in the area of $1 ,000, but that is a guideline not a maximum limit. MR. E. CONNERY: Did that go through Cabinet? HON. M. HEMPHILL: No, Mr. Chairman. MR. E.

CONNERY: Is the department allowed to break its own guidelines? HON. M. HEMPHILL: lt's allowed to use discretion within guidelines. MR. E. CONNERY: What would be the maximum guidelines in that Design Assistance Program then, if you were working within the guidelines, that they could go to without going to Cabinet? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, staff informs me that at the time it was being run under IT and T; it was just before we took it over. We'll have to get the information from them about the maximum guideline levels. MR. E.

CONNERY: The Design Institute, while we're on it, are they still having the Premier's Award dinner? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. E. CONNERY: That will not be this year, though. I gather there was one last year and they are held every second year? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Every second year, Mr. Chairman. MR. E. CONNERY: There was discussion last year on the cost of the Award's night vis-a-vis the total cost of the program. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, we are looking at the issue of the cost of the awards and the dinner. lt has been under review and we have been talking with the industry.

We have some recom mendations coming in on restructuring the program and getting more involvement from the private industry, so there will probably be some changes made. MR. E. CONNERY: One of the questions that we have had in years back, and I think is still very evident with the business community - while it doesn't come under this one - while the Minister has sat here, if I'm ruled out of order, then we'll talk to you when you've got no staff.

The liqu or advert ising, which to me I think is ridiculous, when we allow American stations to come in and broadcast from 7:00 to 10:00 and Canadian stations can't, I think there is an inequity here that our local business people are being deprived of revenue.

Tuesday, 15 July, 1986 I would hope the Minister would take that message to the people responsible in caucus to try to take another look at that. If we're going to allow American stations in, it doesn't make sense that Canadian can't broadcast. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Message received. MR. CHAIRMAN: Message received is the response. MR. E. CONNERY: Thank you for allo wing that observation, Mr. Chairman. You'r e in a better mood than I am today. HON. M. HEMPHILL: He doesn't have gout today, that's right. MR. E.

CONNERY: The advance factory in the Advance Office Space Program, it was mentioned but we never really did discuss it - if it's still in place, and what is happening in that sector? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, it's still in place, but it's under IT and T. MR. E. CONNERY: Okay, I' ll accept that. lt was discussed in Business Devel opment last year, but I'll accept that. Also, what have we got in programs to reduce red tape and paperwork? What is happening in this section? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Chairman, I think the major activity that was undertaken by my colleague was to set up a task force whose job it was to review the matter of the amount of regulation and paperwork that business, and particularly small business, had to deal with. They have had a long series of meetings, I can't quite remember the number, but a lot of meetings out in the commu nity, it went right throughout the province, and received very good information and feedback and indication of concerns and problems from the business communit y. They are in the process now of completing their report.

I understand it's almost at the comp leted stage, at which time I expect to receive it and gi ve it consideration. MR. E. CONNERY: Yes, because in the CFIB Report, only Queb ec sh owed the bus iness sect ion mo re concerned than Manitoba. Manitoba rated second in their concern for government red tape and paperwork. So this rea lly is a high conc ern of the busi ness communit y. HON. M. HEMPHILL: lt's a high concern of ours, too, Mr. Chairman.

I think one of the things we want to do is not only look at the amount; we want to get rid of unnecessary red tape, un necessary forms and requirements, to fill out paper that is not productive or isn't still meeting a purpose, looking at regulations to make sure that they're not dead regulations. that they still have a purpose and should be applying, and also to look to see where it's coming from, because some of the red tape and bureaucracy and regulation comes from the Provincial Government and some may come from other levels or other governments. We're looking at the whole thing.

What is the total pressure on the business community of regulation and red tape and what impact does it have? So that when the report comes in, it may not deal just narrowly with the Provincial Government but the total pressure on them. MR. E. CONNERY: I would hope the review will soon be in place because I remember it being sometime long before the election that the former Minister was going around the country, and it kind of makes you feel that it was more of a vote-getting thing than a fact-finding mission if we don't see a report reasonably soon. HON. M.

HEMPHILL: I agree with the point made, but it was for very substantive reasons and the comm ittee has been working very hard. They met with a lot of people and gathered a lot of information and have done a reasonable amount of research. it's taken them a while to both compile that and put it in written document form. So they have been working very hard all this time and are just completing it, because I've been in close touch with the chairman of the task force, and they are very close to making recommendations. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman, the Small Business Program that was announced dur ing the election campaign, there was $10 million in the budget which was held off until the program was available. I understand my colleague had asked some questions about this yesterd ay, but I have checked with him and I don't think he asked this. Does the dependence on whether that program goes ahead or not rely on the fact that the government will be able to sell small business bonds, as the First Minister announced during the election campaign? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr .

Chairman, no, it isn' t dependent. it's one of the options that we're presently investigating, but it isn't dependent upon that for the program to go. MR. F. JOHNSTON: In other words, the First Minister, during the campaign, misled the people of Manitoba because he said that he was going to have a program for small business based on the fact that he would sell bonds, sell bonds - I'll repeat it a third time - sell bonds to make sure that he would have a program to assist small business development. So in other words, the program can go ahead just by the government going out and borrowing the mon ey. HON. M.

HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, I think what I indicated is that we're presently looking at a variety of options, which includes all of the options that the mem ber suggested, and doesn't rule out any. MR. F. JOHNSTON: But your statement is that the program will go ahead, whether there are small business bonds sold or not. HON. M. HEMPHILL: I guess I was trying to indicate to you that the program was going ahead, and that 1792

Tuesday, 15 July, 1986 we are looking at options that include both of the ones that the Member for Sturgeon Creek mentioned. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, in other words, you're going to sell bonds and, if you don't sell enough bonds, you will then have the Minister of Finance borrow the balance of the money. Under that circumstance, what interest rate would the people receive under the bond that buy the bonds, versus the interest rate that the province would pay for the money? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I suppose those are part of the details that will be announced when we announce the whole program, but clearly the rate would have to be a competitiv e rate. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Well, Mr. Chairman, in other words, the department has decided to go along with a program, whether the First Minister's statement, advertising and press releases are correct or not. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, the department would not go ahead with a program that didn't have the endorsement and support of both the Premier of the province and my Cabinet colleagues.

When we have completed examination of the options and the elements that are going to be part of the program and are comf ortable and satisfied that that is going to be a good program, then we will . . . MR. F. JOHNSTON: I won't dwell on it, Mr. Chairman. There's quite a big difference between selling bonds and borrowing the money, as far as the program is concerned. We'll see whether the departments back up the First Minis ter's statement during elections or not. HON. M. HEMPHILL: I just feel I want to make one final point, Mr.

Chairman, and that is there should be no assumptions on what is or isn't going to be part of this program until we announce what it is going to be. MR. F. JOHNSTON: On your management counselling in your Small Business Development, are there two groups working or one group working in management counselling? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, essentially it's one group, the Business Development Centre. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Did the Min ister say working out of the Business Development Centre? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. F. JOHNSTON: On Lagimodie re Boulevard? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: What is the group that now works out of 15 5 Carlton? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, they provide the specific sector advice to ind ustries, to specific industries. MR. F. JOHNSTON: The Business Development group at Lagimodi ere Boulevard, how many people are involved in that? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Ten, Mr. Chairman, including administration. MR. F. JOHNSTON: If the ones on Carlton Street are on sector development, what business development does this group do, this 10? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, they assist firms in identifying and evaluating new opportunities.

They give provision of assistance for small manufacturers who are in a financially critical position. They assist businesses with feas ibility studies and they assist businesses in obtaining the required financing. MR. F. JOHNSTON: How many are at Carlton Street? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Six, Mr. Chairman. MR. F. JOHNSTON: What sectors do you break the six development officers . . . HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr . Chairman, machi nery, consumer products, plastics, food, transportation. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Nothing in electronics? HON. M. HEMPHILL: That's picked up by IT and T. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: So they pick up the small business as well as the large business as far as electronics are concerned? HON. M. HEMPHILL: That's right. MR. F. JOHNSTON: That's fine. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Portage. MR. E. CONNERY: We didn't discuss the Expo situation in this. I wanted to keep it to the very end, because it will also flow into Tourism because they're tied in together. Well I guess there is no tourism sector, because it's just the business area that's there. Is it IT and T or Business Development or both that's looking after our little wee cubbyhole? HON. M. HEMPHILL: IT and T. MR. E.

CONNERY: So it has nothing to do with business. You don't plan to have any staff or anybody going down there, any Business Development staff going to Expo with the booth? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, we did have some staff seconded to assist the staff of IT and T for a three week schedule. MR. E. CONNERY: What level of staff would this be at? What are we talking about in here? HON. M. HEMPHILL: At the consultant level, Mr. Chairman. 1793

Tuesday, 15 July, 1986 MR. E. CONNERY: So you don't have the office people going down, especially the people who would be dealing with customers who would be looking to locate or to purchase Manitoba produce. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. E. CONNERY: Okay well, if it comes under IT and T, then I guess we'll leave it in this sector and talk about it in the tourist sector. MR. F. JOHNSTON: The small business promotion or information - when we were in the IT and T Estima tes, they listed a number of shows that the provincial booth was used in.

He listed some shows that I know the small busine ss group were in as we ll. Is it the responsibility of this department to man the booths when they go into the shows for IT and T or for yourselves? Do they suggest which shows you go into, or is it done by this department because I know the booth is kept in this department? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, we promoted Prospect '86 and Miconex. Our department does not get involved in the trade shows. MR. F. JOHNSTON: You mean your department didn't have the booth at Centrex last year or the Chamber of Comme rce Show? MR.

CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, I don't think the Min ister is finished. HON. M. HEMPHILL: I'm sorry, I'm listening now. MR. F. JOHNSTON: This department didn't have the booth at Centrex or didn't have the booth at the Chamber of Comme rce Product Show? HON. M. HEMPHILL: No, Mr. Chairman. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Well I'd ask the Minister why this department wouldn't be involved in that, because the main thrust of those shows is for small business. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, we do take part. We take

part in Miconex, in the Chamber of Com merce Business Show, in the Small Busine ss Week in October, the business fairs and the Career Symposium. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: Any further questions? 2.(a)(1) -pass; 2.(a)(2)-pass. Resolution 23: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceed ing $3,3 12, 100 for Bu siness Devel opment and Tourism, Busi ness Development, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 87 -pass. We are now on Item 3., Tourism, 3.(

a) Travel Manitoba - the Member for Portage. MR. E. CONNERY: Is the Minister going to have opening remarks on Tourism or not? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Just a very few opening remarks, as with the other department, Mr. Chairman. I suppose that one of the important things for us to recognize when we're looking at the tourist industry - and it's a job that we all have to do - is making sure people understand how important and what a great potential it has as an economic tool for the Province of Manitoba. In Manitoba, we have a great base on which to build the tourist industry.

In fact, we have all of the elements that we need. We have some of the greatest natural resources in the world. We've got some of the best fishing, the best lakes. We've got the Arctic Tundra; we've got the Precambrian Shield; we've got desert land. We have some of the most bea utiful and recognized natural resources. We also have, I think, top-notch quality cultural and arts activities throughout the province, and they are of a nature that will stand on any world stage. They vary from the rural festivals to the theatre and the ballet and the Folklorama, all of which represent parts of Manitoba.

We also have some of the best accommodation in the country. Manitoba has received a Michelin rating which is a thr ee-star rating, which is one of the few provinces, I think, west of Toronto to receive this. lt is a statement to people who want to travel here that our accommodation is first-class, world-class, and at bargain prices. We offer several thousand first-class or good-class accommodations just within walking distance of the Convention Centre. So we've got all of the elements.

I think we're expecting a boom tourist year, in spite of the fact that the foreign tourists were down in May for reasons that we recognize. We are still projecting a $25 million increase in tourism for the year, and that amount of money is important. We're aiming for a $2 billion industry by the year - $1 billion industry by the year 2000. That was a little bit optimistic, was it? I just added a billion there. What's another billion? Why don't we go for it? Sure. So we're projecting a very good rate, a very good increase in tourists this year and in coming years. What we've started to do is target more.

We're not marketing all over the place. We're identifying our primary target markets, and we're going after them. We're increasing our markets anywhere from 15 to 40 percent in those areas where we're targeting advertising. So I think we're on the right track. We've got a cooperative program with the tourist industry.

I think one of the most cooperative efforts between the field and the industry and the government is in the tou rist industry where ever ybody that's involved, the tourism industry people, the hotel people, the restaurant people, all of the people in the service sector, are working very closely with government to promote Manitoba. If we could just make sure that every Manitoban realizes that they too have a responsibility to welcome tourists, to make them feel welcome and that they are each ambassadors, then I'm sure that we're going to meet our goal. MR. E.

CONNERY: I echo some of the comments of the Min ister in the sense that we do have a wonderful 1794

Tuesday, 15 July, 1986 province and that we do have a lot of things to offer people, but I don't think that we have been achieving the results that we should be. The statistics that I have here, and it's from the Manitoba Department of Business and Development, when we look at the visitors to Manitoba, we see that in all counts, looking back to 19 81, so from 1981 to 19 84, Canadian visitors are down, American visitors are down, foreign visitors are down, and so naturally total visitors are down.

The dollar value is up naturally because of inflation, and the cost of these people coming to Manitoba is more expensive. But I don't think that we've put the money out to attract the tourists as we see other provinces have. We see the Province of Ontario and Saskatchewan putting out large sums of money to attract the tourist industry and they're achieving the success. Manitoba is not putting out the dollars and naturally is not ach ieving success. I think in the ind ust ry, NDP governments are bad tourist years. The Minister indicated that they are going to have a $25 million incr ease.

What is the projection for your total dollar spent by travellers in Manitoba this year? HON. M. HEMPHILL: $627 million. MR. E. CONNERY: Then I would have to ask the Min ister, if it's 627 million and we're having a $25 million increase, we were 621.5 in 19 84? HON. M. HEMPHILL: 616 we have. MR. E. CONNERY: That's not the figures that have come out of Hansard where it says 62 1, and that's where I got those figures - 19 84. HON. M. HEMPHILL: I'm not sure about the Hansard figur es, perhaps we can check, but I think the figures that we have here are accurate - 616 going up to 627. MR. E.

CONNERY: So then ther efor e,'85 ... HON. M. HEMPHILL: it's 627 for 19 85, I'm sorry, and 668 for this year. MR. E. CONNERY: 627 was last year's figure? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes. MR. E. CONNERY: I am somewhat confused. Now maybe we could start all over again. MR. CHAIRMAN: Perhaps the Minister could repeat those figures because they don't seem to add up. HON. M. HEMPHILL: I'm advised that the 25 million was based on the 1. 7 percent increase that we have right now on that projection and that we're projecting overall an increase of 2 percent. MR. E. CONNERY: lt went up $5.5 million.

Is the 627 million for 19 85 accurate? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes. MR. E. CONNERY: So we went up $5.5 million in 1985 and we're looking at almost going up five times what 19 85's increase was? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, we're expecting to go to about 668. MR. E. CONNERY: Those figures still don't round out. You're projecting an increase of $41 million and before it was 25. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Was there a question while I was coughing? MR. CHAIRMAN: The question was the difference between 41, between 627 in 1985 and 668 projected for 1986 and the 25 million figure you mentioned initially.

I think that's the question, what's the differentiation between those two things. HON. M. HEMPHILL: it's my understanding that the one is based on the actual incr eases that we're experiencing now at 1. 7 percent and the other one is based on our projections, which is greater. MR. E. CONNERY: So you have lowered your anticipated increase for this year? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, the 25 million is based on the current figures and we're into the big tourism months right now. MR. E. CONNERY: The Speaker advised us that you can't hear with your mouth open, and usually your mouth is open when you're coughing.

A MEMBER: The Speaker also apologized for that. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Can I just recess for one minute? MR. CHAIRMAN: We'll take a one minute recess. (Recess) MR. CHAIRMAN: We'll resume. HON. M. HEMPHILL: A politician's nightmare - you can't speak without coughing to death. MR. E. CONNERY: Can we go through the various boxes on the chart and the Minister can explain what we are doing in each one? I would appreciate if there was something that isn't here, some other program that you are doing that doesn't show on the chart that would be brought in at some point in the chart analysis. HON. M.

HEMPHILL: Are you talking about the annual report chart? MR. E. CONNERY: This is the chart for Travel Manitoba. it's in the supplements. Before we start, just so we know where we are, is there any Jobs Fund money allocated under Tourism? HON. M. HEMPHILL: No, Mr. Chairman. 1795

Tuesday, 15 July, 1986 MR. E. CONNERY: None at all, okay. Then if we could just go through the charts and explain the various sectors and what's happening up to date, like starting with tourism, marketing, go down that sector, and just take them one at a time, and we can discuss what's happening new is develop ing. There are some new programs in marketing and we can discuss the details. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, the marketing program under Travel Manitoba, its purpose is to help increase Manitoba's tourism expenditures, to increase out-of-province visitor entries and spending in Manitoba at a rate that maintains Manitoba's current share of in-province, Cana dian, U.S. and overseas travel markets. Priority emphasis is on an increase in Manitoba's share of longer duration trips. What we'r e aiming for is getting the people who are coming to stay more than the one day.

We're placing special attention on the enhancement of provincial parks, destination areas, off season produc ts, cultur al cont ent and speci ally markets. We have the following activities under this area. We've got the program development activity, and that's the annual marketing plan, evaluation of marketing programs, policy recommendations and coordination and liaison with the private sector into marketing plans.

The advertising activity includes the preparation and implementation of the advertising plan. lt includes mass market generic advert ising, specialty advertising in support of promotions to travel trade meetings and conventions, and we have an industry co-op advertising program designed to lever funds from the private sector. We have the promotions activity which includes organization and attendance with exhibits and sales persons at vacation and sport shows, mall promotions, fair and festival promotions. We have group travel activity. MR. E. CONNERY: Pardon me.

Before we go into - if there are any questions, when you're finished, go on HON. M. HEMPHILL: Okay. I'm finishing up marketing. MR. E. CONNERY: Real ly, the ma rketing and advertising group are almost synonomous, aren't they being the same? HON. M. HEMPHILL: With a little different focus. MR. E. CONNERY: Can you give us, when you go into each one, the amount of money that is being spent on each sector if you have it broken out? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr .

Chairman, Program Development is $36,000; Advertising is $920,000; the Co-op Industry Program is $11 8,000; Group Travel is $191 ,000; Promotions $2 10 ,000; Publications $489,000, for a total of $1, 967,000.00. The staff has 1 director, 3 managers and 13 professional and technical people in this area. MR. E. CONNERY: What areas of, I guess, foreign travellers are you targeting for? Have you made any changes in the areas that you're looking at? lt used to be North Dakota, South Dakota, Minnesota and maybe Wisconsin. HON. M.

HEMPHILL: Yes, those are still our prima ry targets and we're finding, as I said, we're getting very significant increase where we target We're up 15 percent in North Dakota and 41 percent in Minneapolis. MR. E. CONNERY: Over last year? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Over last year. MR. E. CONNERY: Where does the foreign traveller decline come from? Is that off North America? Are you calling foreign travellers outside of North America? HON. HEMPHILL: That was'85 statistics over the'84, the last year we had statistics. MR. E. CONNERY: Of course this is '86. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes. Mr.

Chairman, what we're projecting right now is a 4 percent to 5 percent increase from the U.S. market; Canada is about 3.2 percent, overseas 5 percent; and Manitoba 3 percent. I can give the individual figures for some of the areas. For instance, Minnesota is 5. 7 percent; North Dakota is 6.5 percent; Northwest Ontario 5.5 percent MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Sturgeon Creek. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, I need to correct that. I was reading the percentage from the wrong line.

I was reading percent of total growth. it's 5 percent for Minne sota, North Dakota, Northwest Ontario; 3 percent Manitoba; and 4 percent U.S. secondary markets. MR. F. JOHNSTON: What type of media advertising is being used in the United States, in the states just to the south of us, including Minneapolis? Are we on television, radio, which magazines, which papers, or not necessarily the names of the papers, the percentage of advertising that we're doing, television radio and print? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Chairman, I don't believe we have the percentages right now, but I can give him the overall and some of the specifics. We're conducting a multi-media campaign that utilizes radio, t.v., billboards and print in the following areas, and I think also uses co-op advertising. In Minnesota we have radio and the lure insert North Dakota has TV, radio, lure insert. Another example is in Manitoba. We have TV, radio, print, lure insert in the magazine. Saskatchewan is just print and magazine so it varies from area to area. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: I wonder if the department could provide to the comm ittee, not necessarily right now, but the cost of the Mi nneapolis promotion last year and this year where the police pipe band was taken down and there were rooms in hotels, receptions, 1796

Tuesday, 15 July, 1986 hospital ity, etc. I wonder if we could have the cost of the promotions for 19 85 and 19 86. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr. Chairman. Was it just the Minneapolis blitz you wanted? lt was $70,000 last year and $90,000 this year, or was it individual costs for all of these? MR. F. JOHNSTON: No, the Mi nneapolis blitz. Now that's 70,000 last year and 90,000 this year. Wha t organi zations were taken down to the Min neapolis blitz? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, we have about 40 suppliers altogether who went down. We had hotel men. We ha d suppl iers.

We had Folklo rama representatives, tour bus operators and restaurant associations. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Did these people pay any part of their own costs? HON. M. HEMPHILL: I beg your pardon? MR. CHAIRMAN: Did these people pay part of their own costs? HON. M. HEMPHILL: They paid all of their own meals, half the accommodation and the air fare was provided by Northw est Orient. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Of course, the police band travelled by bus, I imagine? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. F. JOHNSTON: lt was $95,000 and they paid their own meals and part of their accommodation. Where was the $95,000 spent? HON. M.

HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, the cost would be promotions, hosting public events, rental vehicles, some honorarium, and it's $90,000, not $95,000.00. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Does the department have any record of the number of people that attended from Minneapolis? I understand some of the receptions were mostly Manitoba people. HON. M. HEMPHILL: We don't have the figures, Mr. Chairman, that the member is asking for. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Well, were there invitations sent out or did people sign as they came in?

Were there no records kept of the numb er of people from Min neapo lis, tha t target area, tha t at tended our recept ions? HON. M. HEMPHILL: The receptions we're getting the information on, the mall promotions, of course, would be very difficult, and it's my understanding that one of the most successfu l activit ies was the mall promotions. MR. F. JOHNSTON: The mall promotions, does this include the fishing camps from Northern Manitoba, their booths, or are they involved in this one? HON. M. HEMPHILL: There were some operators in the mall shows. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Is this in conjunction with the Mi nneapolis . . .

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Sturgeon Creek, excuse me, could you speak up a bit, please? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, we are having trouble hearing. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Is this in conjunction with the Minneapolis Summer Festival or . . . ? HON. M. HEMPHILL: No, it is not, Mr. Chairman. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Is it in conjunction with the Sportsmen's Show? HON. M. HEMPHILL: it's my understanding that we were primarily there to talk to the travel agents and that we visited about 200 agents, which was a larger num ber, considerably, than they had done previously. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: But it wasn't held at the same time as the Sportmen's Show? HON. M. HEMPHILL: There was a weekend overlap with the Northwest Trade Show. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Of course, the northern fishing lodges from Manitoba, they would have their own booths in the Northwest Trade Show? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr. Chairman, they would have their own booths and also participated in both programs. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Were they available to work with the travel agents in Minn eapolis? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr. Chairman, there was a weekend overlap and they were avai lable. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: The Minister has given me the 70,000 figure for 19 85 and the 90,000 figure for 1986. Is it possible to have some breakdown of those expenditur es with the organizations that took with us? And, as I say, that can be provided to us. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, absolutely, Mr. Chairman, we're quite happy to provide that breakdown. MR. F. JOHNSTON: The group travel, this is support to group travel agents in Manitoba that are putting together group travel for Manitoba? They're advertising in other areas and you 'r e supporting them with advert ising? HON. M.

HEMPHILL: There are a few in bound Manitoba operators, but it's largely support to outside, those outside. MR. F. JOHNSTON: What support do you give to travel agents outside the province of Manitoba? 1797

Tuesday, 15 July, 1986 HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr . Chairman, we have to distinguish between what kind of support it is. If it's support under the agreement, there could be some money provided. If it's an agreement under Travel Manitoba support, it's non-cash support that they get, counselling information, advice. MR. F. JOHNSTON: The cash support is provided under the Canada-Manitoba Tourism Agreement? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. F. JOHNSTON: The information - well, I could leave that, Mr. Chairman. The information is further up. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In the

section 3, Grant Assistance, can the Mi nister tell me what is being received by the parent organization for Tourism Manitoba? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, I was just confirming that the parent organization is the TIAM organization. They are receiving from the province a grant of, I think it's $1 23,000 a year for the total organization, which is then divided up to the various regions where they get a range from a $7,000 grant up to a $49,000 grant going to the TIAM central office. lt comes to, I'm sorry, not 123 ,000, it's $1 89,000.00.

Apart from that, the Federal Government and the Provincial Government agreed to give an additional grant under the new agreement, which was an additional $12 3,000 which was also divided and broken up with $1 0,000 additional going to TIAM central office and the rest being divided up in the regions. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: I am concerned that at one point the grant that was given to the Winnipeg central office, which was about 49.9, covered almost all of their costs. Their budget was about 65,000. Now their budget is 13 5,000 and yet they are still getting the same basic grant.

Is this an indication of the lack of commitment to this organization? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, in these times, I hardly can imagine that anybody would think that a grant that was almost doubled - I guess not quite do ubled - was a lack of comm itm ent to th e organization.

In fact, the decision to give additional funding, you know, they were. getting $1 89,000 in total, you have to look at the funding that is going not just to central but to the regional offices, the total amount, and to take a grant that was at $1 89,000 and add another $12 3,000 in one year can hardly be called a lack of comm itment to the organization. lt's onl y because of the very strong commitment to the tourist industry people and to the regional offices that that grant was made.

I did indicate that the central office did receive an additional grant of $10, 000, but the rest of it is going out to the regions. I'v e had many meetings with them, and I didn't have any concerns raised to me about that point. I think that they were pleased to receive the additional $1 0,000, but there was not a suggestion from anybody, from the regions or central office, that we should be taking more of the money away from the regional offices and putting the larger amount into the central office. MRS. S.

CARSTAIRS: I am not suggesting we should be taking more from the central office and putting it into the regional offices or vice versa. I am suggesting, on representation made to me by the central office, that the funding which they are receiving, which used to be 49,900 of $65,000 and is now 49,900 of $1 35,000, is in fact providing them with woefully inadequate funds to carry on their central function. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, I'm wondering if the representation that was made to you was made prior to the anno uncement of the additional $1 23,000.00.

That's the only thing I can imagine that would account for that kind of a response. They are not getting 49,000 now; they're getting $59,000.00. I have to say that, when I met with them and discussed it and told them what they were getting and how it was going to be divided, at no time did the representatives from the central office indicate to me that they were dissatisfied with the allocation or the total amount. In fact, since it was very questionable that the 123,0 00 would be agreed to under the new agreement, they were awfully glad to get the news. MRS. S.

CARSTAIRS: lt doesn't surprise me that any organization would be delighted to get an additional $10 ,000.00. HON. M. HEMPHILL: An additional $1 23,000.00. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Well, we're talking about the central group here. lt is true, I think, that we are losing our share of the tourism market, not in terms of our own percentages - we are going up - but in terms of the percentages for the other Prairie provinces. Is that not correct? HON. M. HEMPHILL: I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman, I only heard part of the question. MRS. S.

CARSTAIRS: lt is true, while our own tourism figures are going up in terms of percentage, our tourism rate is not going up as fast as the other Prairie Provinces. Is that correct? HON. M. HEMPHILL: lt's my understanding that their rate went up faster than ours did in 19 86, but that, in 19 85, our rate went up significantly higher than theirs did. So you'd probably have to look at it overall. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Can the Minister confirm to me that, in terms of the 10 provinces in Canada, we are seventh in the amount of marketing dollars actually spent on tourism? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Chairman, the information I have now indicates to me that we're up 4. 7 and Saskatchewan is minus 3.9 up to the end of April. You were asking for comparisons with other provinces. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: What about Alberta and British Columbia? 1798

Tuesday, 15 July, 1986 HON. M. HEMPHILL: Al berta is 7.6, and British Columbia is 7.4. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Considerably above what we are. So if we averaged them out, we're in fact . HON. M. HEMPHILL: Medium, probably. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: In terms of the marketing strategy money, however, is it true that we are seventh for Canada in terms of the money that we spend on marketing? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, that's probably correct. We can't confirm the exact figure, but it's probably correct. MRS. S.

CARSTAIRS: Does the Minister plan, during her ministry , to increase the marketing percentage, and thereby give us the opportunity to do as she said and to which I agree comp letely, that we take advantage of all of the elements that we have for a boom tourist industry? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, the first answer is yes. We do both hope to and intend to. I think it's important to indicate that there is 30 million in the new Tourist Agreement. That is where we are concentrating a lot of our activities, and our new money for new initiatives, marketing and promotion. MRS. S.

CARSTAIRS: I'd like to congratu late the Minister or the previous Minister on the change of advertising strategy. I think that getting the advertising out in January has, in fact, been a very wise move in terms of helping those south of the border and in other provinces plan their holidays so that holiday can include a visit to Manitoba. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, I have to bow to my colleague, and let him take the cheer or the credit. MR. E. CONNERY: He did something right. HON. M.

HEMPHILL: I think there's general agreement by both our industry and our province that the early marketing is very important, although it's interesting that I don't believe the Federal Government studies or position is the same. They think that we can still come out sort of late, although we're beginning to pull them in with us and with our thinking for early marketing. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Portage. MR. E. CONNERY: Just for the numbers that we did so well with the year before in tourism when we went up, I think ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Excuse me. The Minister of Education. HON. J.

STORIE: On a point of order, the Member for Sturgeon Creek mutters from his seat that marketing before March is waste of time and money. MR. F. JOHNSTON: That's right, Mr. Chairman. If we're going to have points of order on what I said across the table, marketing much before March has been proven over the years - and this is the average number of years - is not directed to the best place in the market for the western part of the United States and for the western part of Manitoba. January is not a month when people look at marketing to that great an extent when you'r e talking about holiday seasons.

If the member would like to have a debate with me across the table, I'd be very glad to do it. MR. CHAIRMAN: I think the Member for Sturgeon Creek's remarks were relevant to Travel Manitoba. The point of order by the Minister was not a point of order. Across-the-table discussion, I think, can be conducted in the back of the room, but that was not a point of order. MR. F. JOHNSTON: As a matter of fact, I wasn't speaking to him. I was talking to my colleague beside me. MR. E.

CONNERY: The point that we should raise, when our tourist numbers did increase so greatly, it was the year when we had the Pope and the Queen. So I think there was a real reason. Wasn't it? When did they go up? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Last year, and we didn't have the Pope and the Queen. MR. E. CONNERY: Last year they went up, in 19 85? HON. M. HEMPHILL: In 1985. The main reason, we believe, for the increase is the targeted marketing. lt is targeting our primary market areas and concentrating on that, both geographically and destination area and specialty market. We target all those. MR. E.

CONNERY: Well, the Mem ber for River Heights had mentioned money for TIAM. She was concentrating on the central office, but this year the tourist people within the RDC's, I think in all cases - I'm not sure in all cases - but several of them had run out of money and had to lay off their person responsible for tourism in the rural area. What comment has the Minister got on that? I know definitely in Portage, and I was told that there were others. They were connected with the ADC, the Tourism person with the ADC. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, there isn't any direct connection.

They do work together, and they do have some joint sort of cooperative interests and activities, but they are separated and their grants and their funding are separated. MR. E. CONNERY: The RDC's and the Tourist sector are separate. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Are separate. MR. E. CONNERY: Yes, that's the quest ion. Why were they not given adequate funding to maintain their personnel? 1799

Tuesday, 15 July, 1986 HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, the RDC's were given the same funding level as last year. We're not aware of layoffs, so perhaps . . . MR. E. CONNERY: I think I'm going to try to clarify, Mr. Chairman. The RDC's are separate from the tourist people but they do have some accommodation for that tourist person to be within their facility. HON. M. HEMPHILL: In some cases. MR. E. CONNERY: But the funding for that person in Tourism was not there. I'm not saying that the RDC's didn't get the funding, but the tourist person. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, now I understand the point he's making.

In some of the regions, they did lay off people and were having trouble maintaining their services. That of course is one of the reasons that we looked so seriously at the request, and agreed to commit another $1 23,000 to them. MR. E. CONNERY: Your program of funding, is it that fragile that they have enough and then they don't have enough? They're on for awhile. How do you have an ongoing tourist program if the people aren't on full time pay? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, their base funding was there. They had the $1 89,000.00.

The original plan was that they would move towards self-sufficiency. lt was never intended when they were set up that they become an ongoing and sort of perpetrating body that required larger and larger amounts of money. Now that might have been a little idealistic, and it may be that they won't gain self-sufficiency quite as quickly as people had thought but that was the goal. I think what they're faced with is the same thing as anybody else is faced with. They've got a lot of things they want to do and a lot of activities, and they're trying to do as much as they can with the money that they've got.

We're trying to support them to a level that they can not only maintain what they were doing, but they can expand and increase their programs in the way that most suits the region. When I met with them, it's quite clear that they have quite a wide variety of activities going on in the various regions, and they determine those activities themselves. I think the increase in grants clearly will allow them not only to maintain but expan d. In fact, they told me that. MR. E. CONNERY: $1 23,000 additional for TIAM, which is regional and central, is in the new agreement with Ottawa. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes. MR. E.

CONNERY: When that agreement expires, what happens then as far as funding? If you can't achieve a new agreement with Ottawa, is the province going to come up with another one? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, first of all, we'r e in the first year of the new agreement, and it's a five year agreement. I would say that the TIAM Association has, in terms of bodies, all would like inflation factor built in or CPI or a formula that would guarantee an increase or guarantee that the money was there.

They probably have more guarantee and more protection than most other outside organizations receiving grants from government today because, in the negotiations with the Federal Government, we agreed that the $12 3,000 increase would come for the TIAM Association in each year of the agreement with only one provision. That is that there be a review at the end of each year by both the Federal and Provincia l Min isters . The TIAM Association quite agreed that there should be some evaluation at the end of the year, but that has been built into the negotiations. So I would say they're in pretty good shape. MR. E.

CONNERY: lt should be pointed out that in the TIAM Report, which I'm not going to look for, they said that government funding had, up until this point, remained the same while their people have doubled. So I think the TIAM people have done a super job in increasing their own funding. So I think the private sector has done a pretty fair job. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, I agree that they are trying to work towards that. The one other point that should be made, of course, is the large number of volu nteers.

You know, I think that there is a tremendous volunt eer support and effort that has to be recognized through the TIAM associations and the regions. They're doing a marvellous job, and that's why we were so anxious to support them. MR. F. JOHNSTON: The federal-provincial agreement, it's 60-40 - is it? - or 50-50. HON. M. HEMPHILL: I wish, as long as the 60 was theirs and the 40 was ours. it's 50-50, Mr. Chairman. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Then the Federal Government is paying 50 percent of the cost to the regions and also 50 percent of the increase in the funding for the TIAM. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr. Chairman.

We were quite clear when we announced it, that it was under the agreement and that it was 50-50 by the Federal Government and the province, and we were sharing the costs. MR. F. JOHNSTON: The Minister mentioned 60-40. Back in our days, it was 60-40, and we also paid it out of our agreement. Does the central office have anything to say about how much the regions get or how the regions spend their money? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Chairman, I'm advised that the original allocation was done by the province with some advice from the central office, and that the money that has been given since then has been based on that original allocation. lt certainly would have to do with their activities and their size. I don't believe that TIAM Association Central dictates to the regions what they do, but I think they do a lot 1800

Tuesday, 15 July, 1986 of coordi nation and a lot of even cooperative programming that goes on, but they don't dictate to them what they do. You can tell that from the plans that they have for the various regions in the future. They'r e quite independent. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Is it still the seven regions? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Eight regions, including Winnipeg. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Could we have a breakdown of the amount that each region gets? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I can give that to you right now. These are the figures without the increase.

I'll give you the original first, because we haven't added the two together. The Central got 49,000; Winnipeg Convention and Visitors' Bureau, 36,200; Brandon Convention and Visitors' Bur eau, 15,6 00; Regional Tourist Booth Sponsor Support, 12 ,899; lnterlake Region, 10,733; Central Plains Region, 7, 103; Eastern Region, 11 ,833; Pembina Valley Region, 7, 103; Western Region, 9,523; Parkland Re gion, 11 ,833; No rth of 53rd Re gion, 16 ,673.00. The increase, the 12 3,000, we gave an additional 30,000 - or was it? Mr. Chairman, they each received 30,000 less what they had received . . . .

We supplemented to $30,000 for each region with central getting an additional 10. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Wait a minute now. The central got an additional 10 bringing them to 59,000 and the balance went to the seven regions or was it spread between these organizations? HON. M. HEMPHILL: lt was spr ead between the regions. MR. F. JOHNSTON: The regions? You said said there were eight regions but you gave me a couple of others in there that are not regions, but was it on a percentage increase for each one? HON. M. HEMPHILL: No, we brought each one up to $30,000.00. MR. F. JOHNSTON: You brought each one up to $30,000.00?

HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Yes, 19 88 is going to be the 250th anniversary of the establishment of both Fort Rouge and Fort la Reine in Portage la Prairie by La Verendrye, and marks our 250th anniversary of the first white settlement. Is Tourism Manitoba planning anything to bring back, in a homecoming way, people to the Province of Manitoba during that year? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, it's one of the items that's under consideration right now in the proposals before us. MRS. S.

CARSTAIRS: I have a letter here which dates back to October 9, 19 80 in which it was under 1801 consideration at that particular point by the Minister, Mrs. Price. Has it been under consideration now for six years? HON. M. HEMPHILL: My guess is that since the original one was with Mrs. Price is that she was considering it and that the others have been considering it since then. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Yes, I'd like to go back to these grants. Parklands, I think the grant given - it was given quickly - was 9,000-something? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Parklands is 11 ,833. MRS. S.

CARSTAIRS: So that was, in fact, in this new agreement it was given a grant of almost 20,000 to bring it up to 30,000? HON. M. HEMPHILL: That's right. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: What was the rationale giving the regions such a disproportionate share of this money in comparison to the central office of this organization? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Chairman, the basis of it was to divide it so that we were suggesting 15, 000 for staff and 15 ,000 for marketing, which gave each one of them a base for both marketing and promotion and staff ing, so that they each have a basic base, I suppose would be the way to describe it, from which to operate. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(a)(1) - the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Well, say we bring the seven regions up to 30,000 and we bring Winnipeg up by 10 ,000, but there's two other organizations - or one other at least - in Winnipeg that was brought up as well, wasn't there? HON. M.

HEMPHILL: lt was brought up for what? MR. F. JOHNSTON: That was increased as well. You gave the $49,000 for the TIAM Central and you gave me 36.2 for ... HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, they're eligible under the agreement for marketing. MR. F. JOHNSTON: And the 36.2, what was that one? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Winnipeg Convention and Visitors Bureau. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Winnip eg Convention Centre Touris t Bur eau. So , Winnip eg , there's really two organizations in Winnipeg, TIAM Central and the Tourist Bureau that had an increase in funding? HON. M. HEMPHILL: That's true. Oh, I'm sorr y, correction there.

The Winnipeg Convention and Visitors Bureau did not get any additional money. They are eligible under the new agreement, under marketing.

Tuesday, 15 July, 1986 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Portage. MR. E. CONNERY: In our advertising section, do you want to make some comment on "Come To Winnipeg, Your World Next Door." lt's part of your advertising promotion. What's special under this that you haven't told us already? This is the federal-provincial one . . . HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr. Chairman. That's an advertising program that was initiated by the Federal Government and that had the participation of Folk Arts Council of the City of Winnipeg, the Chamber of Comme rce and ourselves, and the Convention Bureau.

All of those groups got together and put in a certain amount of money. We put in $50,000 toward that promotion and its principle is to be a promotion of the multicultural nature of the Province of Manitoba. So we're promoting multiculturalism and the activities, the people, the resources, the festivities like Folklorama, but not just like Folklorama; it's an expansion of Folklorama. MR. E. CONNERY: Is this the program that the Minister was dragging her heels on when she acknowledged that early promotion draws more tourists to Manitoba? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, it is the promotion that I was dragging my heels on for very good reason though, because by dragging our heels, Mr. Chairman, we got an agreement from the Federal Government to do a number of things that we thought were very important. One was to agree to a long-term multicu ltural promotional program over a period of two or three years instead of what was originally planned, which was sort of a one-shot deal, which we thought is not good marketing strategy - you have to build. We also got them to agree to - what were the other things?

Oh yes, and the broader consultation, there were three things: (1) we wanted to focus on broad mu lticultur al is m in Manitoba because we've got activities going on throughout the province all through the year and we want to get away from, as important as Folklo rama is, of having people bel ieve that multiculturalism takes place one week in Winnipeg in Manitoba; (2) we want them to know so that they can get it anytime they come, almost anywhere; and (3) there would be broader consultation with the ethnic commun ity, so that when we went in and broadened the content away from just Folklorama, we also included a broader consultation with the ethnic communi ty through the lntercultural Council.

I think the agreement to develop and to fund, under the agreement, a plan for a two-or three-year period was very, very important for us. I just might also say that although the program is late, we have found before that when we have developed good programs and they've been a little late getting off the mark, or we review them again, so they can be used again another year. We don't scrap things that are developed and that are good and that can still be used to promote. lt may be a little late this year - and I think it is - but it's a beginning and we can still continue to use it. MR. E.

CONNERY: We'll be closing soon for the Private Members' Hour. Does the Min ister have a copy of the various publications that they have put around so that we can peruse them before? HON. E. HEMPHILL: I think we've put a number of them up on the table there for you, plus a copy of the new posters, which I am supposed to inform you are $3 a poster or $18 for the series, unless the department feels that the promotion to you is worth $1 8.00. MR. CHAIRMAN: Charge it to members' expenses. MR. E. CONNERY: So what are you saying? You're selling these to people so we can put them up? HON. M.

HEMPHILL: We may even make them available to you if the promotion is going to be well used. MR. E. CONNERY: I'l l have to have a look at them. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(a)(1) ... MR. E. CONNERV: You have one area and this will finish the Tourism marketing. The consumer promotion - what consumer promotion do you use? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Sport shows, mall promotions, group presentations where we'r e talking directly to the consumer and not through travel agents. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(a)(1) ... MR. E. CONNERV: We have lots to go yet. MR. CHAIRMAN: The time being 4:30 p.m., we'll interrupt proceed ings for Private Members' Hour.

We will resume at 8:00 p.m. SUPPLY - CIVIL SERVICE MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: The Commit tee of Supply will please come to order. We have been considering the Estimates of the Civil Service Commission. We are now on Item No. 1. (b)

(1) Human Resources Management Services: Salaries - the Member for Brandon West . MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, last evening we were discussing personnel records under Administration and Finance. I believe the Mi nister told us that a good deal of personnel records from all the departments are kept by the Civil Service Commission and that would be covered under the appropriation un der (

a) Admi nistration and Finance. Yet I looked at Page 19 of the Supplementary Information the Minister was good enough to provide us with, and Reference No. 5 refers to development of personnel records, policy and managing of personnel record systems for all Manitoba government emplo yees, etc. I would just like to have the Minister clarify whether those personnel records are kept under appropriation - I gu ess the appropriation for Admin istration and Finance or the appropriatio n for Human Resource Mana gement Services. 1802

Tuesday, 15 July, 1986 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. E. KOSTYRA: The reference note No. 5 relates to comm ission management because they do the systems for the keeping of those records. Obviously there is greater room for . . .. MR. J. McCRAE: I wonder either if we could have the sound system checked or if the Minister would speak out. I just did not hear a word he said. HON. E. KOSTYRA: I think it's on now. I think he didn't have it on before. The reference to personnel records here is that it is in relation to dealing with the personnel records systems as an information management function.

That does not mean that the records are kept here but they work on the systems for the automation of the various records of the Civil Service and the personnel. Some of them are automated; others are still on the manual type systems. MR. J. McCRAE: I wonder if the Min ister could just make that a little clearer for me. I'm not sure I understand. What was the reference then last night to the Admin istration and Finance appropriation and the fact that the $475,900 is related to personnel records? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: All of the hard copies, all of the records are kept in the area and maintained by the staff in the administration area. The reference in No. 5 is to the Information Management Division of the department which is responsible for the development of information systems. So they are responsible for developing information systems with regard to the personnel records. The records are located in the

section that I said they were, the hard copy. There is staff allocated there to deal with them. This branch, further down the road under Reference 5, is the branch that provides the computerization for those records. lt plans the system and implements the system in this area and in other areas of commission activities. MR. J. McCRAE: Is the Minister assuring us that there is no duplication of services in the two appropriations? HON. E. KOSTYRA: No, there is no duplication of services between the two areas. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (b)(1) - the Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr.

Chairman, also on Page 19 of the Supp lementary In forma tion, un der Other Expenditures, this is Reference No. 5, there is an allocation for professional services significantly higher than professional services last year. Perhaps the Minister can tell us what the $45,900 paid for last year and what the $98,500 pays for this year? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I'm informed that significant increase is related to ongoing impr ovements in the whole information system of the department.

The specific incr ease relates to one cont ract that's been entered into with System Ho us e Ltd . who are consultants in the comput er information field and they are working on a major reorganization and upgrading of the commission's computer and information systems. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, I'm wondering which benefit and insurance programs assigned - well, we're really not at the Labour Relations Services yet, so I'll come back to that. Under the Development and Training, would that come under this heading, Mr. Chairman? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, it will. 1t comes under Reference No. 8, Page 23. MR. J.

McCRAE: Here again, Mr. Chairman, could I ask the Min ister about the substantial increase in the allocation for professional services? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The increase in professional services here is to accommodate increased outside resources that will be contracted on an as-need basis for a number of training programs, including Affirmative Action and other areas of the department. What it would be is pe opl e hir ed to conduc t cours es for the govern ment, so there isn't one major contract in it, but a number of individual contracts. MR. J.

McCRAE: Does the commission have any specific courses or plans in mind to - you know, does it know specifically how it's going to be spending this $86,100 this year? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I would first say that the practice that the Comm ission has been in the use of outside consultants for training in most instances was to train the trainer so that whatever information existing staff can develop in new or different areas, and it is something that is then built into the in-house programming of the Commis sion so there isn't an ongoing reliance to outside assistance.

The two specific areas that will see greatest attention are related to Affirmative Action and Career Development. One particular area within that is a new area which is something called the Assessment Centre in which there will be a significant involvement from outside consultants. it's something that has not been previously developed at the Commission as a specific thrust.

What it is is to have a centre which assesses people's ability to do work and to develop career ladders, an assessment which is different than merely assessing a person's academic or specific qualifications in some cases to provide a better understanding and some equiv alency in terms of what a person may need. So it's a specific initiative that's part of the Affirmative Action thrust which will require outside consultants because it is not an expertise or knowledge that exists within the Commission at the present time. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, I take the Minister back to his opening statement last even ing.

On Page 2 of that statement, the Min ister said that seven staff years and an additional $500,000 had been included to provide resources for the im plementation of Pay Equity and to fund a number of central initiatives in support of Affirmative Action. 1803

Tuesday, 15 July, 1986 These expenditures or professional services, are those expenditur es included in the figure of $500,000 that the Minister gave us last night? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Not specifical ly, though I think the mem ber will recall last night I talked about money that was coming from the MGE A Trust Fund in agreement with the MGEA for the Career Development Program, so part of those funds will be used to offset that. MR. J. McCRAE: I think the question, then, Mr .

Chairman, goes to Reference No. 9 on Page 25 where we have here funding for an expansion of six staff years for expansion of the Career Devel opment Program, and funding for this expansion has been appropriated in the Manitoba Jobs Fund, MGEA portion, so that the money for those staff years, there's money in addition to that. In other words, these professional services would be part of the money coming from that source? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, the salary dollars are in addition to what is shown there from the Trust Fund. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr.

Chairman, I just make the comment that it's very hard to really get to a bottom line figure as to what these initiatives are going to cost the taxpayers of Manitoba. I'm talking about Pay Equity and Affirmativ e Action Programs. lt appears to me that there are expenditures here, expenditur es there and all over the map, and it's very hard for us to nail down exactly what the bottom line cost will be. it's one thing to support such initiatives, and I can't see how anyone wouldn't be supporting the principle that people be paid equal pay for work given of an equal value.

We also support Affirmative Action which would assist those in positions in society that need that type of assistance the most. But it is fair, I believe, to the taxpayers of the province to unde rstand just what it is that they're paying for these initiatives. Mr. Chairman, in the same line, we talked a moment ago about training for trainers and we talked about this figure of $86,000 for professional services. I'd like to take the Minister to Page 61 of the annual report of the Commission which lists various courses that are offered .

We see on the right-hand side a column showing us the number of civil servants attending these various courses. Are they attending those courses of their own volition or are they referred by their managers or by their superiors? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Before I answer that question, I'd just like to answer the comments that the member made previous ly.

I know he wasn't suggesting it, but when one may read the record there may be some that would read the remarks in such a way as to interpret the memb er's comments to suggest that the government was somehow fudging the figures in terms of what was happening with Affirmative Action. The only area that is not accounted for specifically in these Estimates, though it's reconciled, is the money from the MGEA Trust Fund which is a salary increase that was part of the negotiated agreement that was renegotiated and put back to assist in various government program ming areas.

Some of it was used in Highways and a small amount has found its way here. I would just point out the other part of I guess his concern was that mo nies are here, there and everywhere. Well, that's actually true and I do n't apologize for that fact because one of the things that we're atte mpting to do in terms of affirmative action is not deal with the issue of affirmative action by layering on additional resources or additional costs.

A lot of it is being accomm odated within various appropriations of the department or of the Commission as a priority of the Commission so there's some reallocation of existing resources to that. lt would be much easier to deal with problems if one had the resources and just layer on more staff and double the money in order to deal with it, but a lot of it is reallocation of existing activities to make that a prior ity. So you will see, and the member can question literally in any area of the Estima tes and find some of those monies going towards initiatives like that.

That was a deliberate decision to include as much as possible within the existing resources, recognizing that there had to be some additional resources placed on that. In terms of his question, on Page 61 of the report, there are two ways of emp loyees getting into these programs. One is on their own request where they ask to be provided with the opportunity to attend these courses, or on reference by management of their departments where management of that department feels it would be in the interest of their career or their position to participate in some of those courses. MR. J.

McCRAE: Would I be correct in saying that those referred by their superiors would take these courses on company time or government time? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Most of the courses that are offered through the Commission are on government time. MR. J. McCRAE: Those courses taken at the request of the emp loyee, are they taken on government time too? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, for emp loyees that request courses, both the departmental management has to appr ove of the emplo yee participa ting and the Commission. MR. J. McCRAE: That's where my next question was leading me, Mr. Chairman.

The value of some of the programs must surely be recognized by the emp loyer before an employee is authorized to take those courses, especially when they're taken on government time. So, Mr. Chairman, when this annual report first came out, there was some attention paid to the list of courses offered . I believe the Mi nister or some official in the government made the point that, when it came time for Estimates, there might very well be a serious look taken at the value of some of these courses. For instance, what is "Conversations for Action," and what is "Developing Your Power Profile"?

Could I ask about those two courses, and if the Min ister's Department has giv en any consideration to the continuation of those courses? 1804

Tuesday, 15 July, 1986 HON. E. KOSTYRA: The staff are just looking for the detail, but I just want to make a couple of general comments. First, did I understand the memb er correctly when he said that there was some suggestion by me or staff that there would be a review of these programs in terms of effectiveness during the Estima tes? MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, that is my recollect ion.

I can't show you the Minister's exact words or whether they were his or someone else's, but it seems to me, whether in the Estima tes process or at some point in the near futu re, the Civil Service Commission would re-examine the value of each of the programs. Some of the more questionable ones may be dropped was my understanding. HON. E. KOSTYRA: I have a copy of the press report, and I'm not quoted at all in that, nor was I approached by this reporter that wrote, in my opinion, a rather silly article.

I don't say that in reference to my next comment, but the comment of questioning some of the relevance of the programs was - or at least was quoted in this

article as - yours and not the Commission staff. I don't find fault with the member's comments on it, but the whole article, I thought, was one of the sillier ones that had been written, where it starts off saying: "The NDP Government spent about $230,000 last year teaching civil servants to be civil." I think that is, quite frank ly, nonsense. I'm sure the member has looked to the range of programs that are offered for empl oyee development and better serving the public, so I found most of that

article quite silly in terms of the approach that the reporter took to a serious subject of on-the job em ployee training. I'm just going to stop for a minute and see if I can get the detail on those two areas. I'm told that course was dropped after one year because there was only interest from 13 people to take it. The title of the course, I think, may be somewhat misleading. 1t is a form of assertiveness training to help people improve their profile in terms of making presentations and building their own abilities to pass on and deal with information.

But it is no longer offered, as it wasn't a popular course in terms of participation. I'm afraid I didn't hear the second course. If the member wouldn't mind repeating it, then I could provide an answer. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, I take it that the Min ister was talking about "Conversations for Action." - (Interject ion) - No, "Developing your Power Profile." HON. E. KOSTYRA: What was the first one again? MR. J. McCRAE: The first one was "Conversations for Action." HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Tha t cou rse also has been dropped because of lack of response. lt also dealt with assertiveness in terms of conversation and attempting to assist people in dealing with com mun ications between individuals. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, when the Minister talks about lack of response, is there a criterion or a number 1805 of enrolled individuals you need in order to decide whether there's a lack of response or a good response? I see that they're headed in the right direction by dropping those two courses because, if you turn over to Page 61, the Assertiveness Course, 217 attended those classes.

I just wondered, when the Minister says there's a lack of response, what would be considered a reasonable response thus enabling the Commission to feel that it should carry on with the course? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The process for the adding on or deleting of courses is not one that I could provide just one simple answer. Some of the requests come from the department in terms of what needs they see for training. On the basis of those requests and Commis sion resources, additional courses are added from time to time. There is an evaluation done of all courses, particularly new ones.

From time to time, there are also new courses that are added to test to see if there is any interest. So the decision to drop courses is made on the basis of the need, if there are other needs that are identified by departments that are of a higher priority than those that are offered presently; secondly, an evaluation of the course itself by the staff and by participants; and thirdly, the response to particular courses. So it would be a combination of those factors that go into decisions relative to courses. MR. J. McCRAE: A few minutes ago, Mr.

Chairman, the Min ister made light of, I believe it was, a Free Press report about these courses and about teaching civil servants to be civil. I see that we had 217 in attendance at the assertiveness classes. As I understand the word "assertivene ss," it doesn't mean to be particularly polite but to be very direct. Then on the other hand, we have "Dealing with the Public," and only 160 attended that one. Maybe that's the kind of list that the newspaper reporter was looking at when the comments were made about teaching civil servants to be civil.

I just wonder if the Minister could tell us any other of these courses that have been dropped, and if there have been any added since the publication of this annual report. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Well I again will suggest that I found that

article very very silly, because it suggested all of the courses that are run by the Civil Service Commission deal with making civil servants to be civil. If you look through the list, that is certainly not the case. There are some courses, and I think they're important, for people that are dealing with the public on a regular basis who may need some assistance in terms of being civil to the public and how to deal with difficult situations as people who deal with the public get into from time to time.

The member knows well what I talk about because, as an MLA, you get situations with people who are agitated or dealing with problems, and it's sometimes very difficult to deal with people. Sometimes a person who is not experienced in that has a great deal of difficulty, and may need help to be civil under trying circumstances. So that was the context in which I made that comment. I also disagree with the

interpretation he placed on assertiveness training. I don't necessarily interpret it

Tuesday, 15 July, 1986 to be training to make people impolite. I interpr eted it in a broader sense, in terms of providing people self confidence with which to express their ideas and points. I will table a copy of this for the mem ber. This is the staff training and devel opment calendar for the govern ment. it's published once a year in terms of what's available for civil servants. lt gives all kinds of details on all of the programs that were offered until July 19 86.

I'll just read the description of the assertiveness training workshop. it's open to all civil servants who would like to de vel op or im pr ove their abi lit y to commun icate assertively. The workshop provides an opportunity to assess skill at commu nicating assertively. Participants in this course will learn to differentiate aggressive, non-assertive, and assertive behaviour, and use the components of asse rtion to enha nce interpersonal relationships. lt goes on from there. We will provide a copy after.

In terms of the question of the number which have been dropped and which have been added, we would have to go through that manually and take the 19 84 report against the 19 85 report. Staff don't kno w specifically which ones. lt would be a matter of just going through the two lists. If the mem ber wants that subsequent, I will provide it for him. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, I don't think I need that information for the purposes of the discussions here, but if I'm going to be the critic for my party, then it might be useful for me to have that information later.

With respect to these courses, we talked a little while ago, Mr. Chairman, about professionals being brought in for certain training, for trainers. Would there be outside professional services involved in presentation of these courses listed on these two pages, and to what extent? HON. E. KOSTYRA: There are some that use an outside consultant. I'll use one as an example, from Page 61, and that is third from the top, the Kepner Tregoe Problem-Solving and Decisio n-Making Course. it's a relatively new one over the last few years.

Staff from the consultants that are involved in that program do come in and conduct the training. At the same time, staff of the Civil Service Commission and others within government are beng trained in order to eventually run this course without their assistance. I might also add that it's not only staff of the Commission that provide training, but the government has a program of training people in departments who are also used by the Commission to train emp loyees in particular areas of expertise.

So it's not just the staff of the Commission that do the training, but staff throughout the Civil Service who have particular abilities or skills or knowledge, are trained from time to time as trainers of particular courses, and do provide that training. To the greatest extent possible, in-house resources are used and where outside resources are used, if it's intended that that's going to be at all an ongoing program, then it's attempted to bring that expertise in-house. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, I don't want to

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	33-1-46a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	33rd 1st hansardpdf 46a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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