May 12, 1999

GOVERNMENT SERVICES ESTIMATES COMMITTEE

Pursuant to Standing Order 87, Mr. Jack Byrne, MHA

for Cape St. Francis, substitutes for Harvey Hodder, MHA for Waterford Valley.

The Committee met at 5:00 p.m. in Room 5083,

Confederation Building.

CHAIR (Wiseman): Order, please!

My name is Ralph Wiseman, Chairman of the

Government Services Committee. The purpose of this meeting tonight is to review

the Estimates of the Public Service Commission. On behalf of the Committee, I

want to welcome the minister and her staff. The practice has been, Minister,

that you have fifteen minutes, if you so desire, to introduce your Estimates.

That is only if you desire.

The Vice-Chairman, I guess, in this case - I do not

know who is filling in for -

MR. J. BYRNE: I am filling in for Harvey.

CHAIR: Okay, Mr. Byrne is filling in, so you

will have fifteen minutes in which to respond.

I will introduce to you, for recording purposes,

the members of the Committee. They are: Mr. J. Byrne, who is the Vice-Chairman

tonight; Mr. Fitzgerald; Mr. Andersen; Mr. Sweeney; and we have Mr. Joyce who is

unavoidably delayed but will be along shortly.

Before we begin tonight, some business the

Committee has to deal with is the minutes of our last meeting. The Committee has

had an opportunity to review the minutes. If there are no errors or omissions,

would somebody move that these minutes be adopted as read?

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: Minister, you will have an opportunity,

when you begin, to introduce your staff. I will ask the Clerk now to call the

head and you can then begin.

CLERK: 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Thank you.

You may go ahead, Minister.

MS THISTLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First of all, I would like to introduce my staff.

To my far right is Mr. Bert Edison, Director of Staffing and Compliance. Next to

myself is Mr. Fonse Faour, who is Chairman and CEO of the Public Service

Commission.

As you indicated, you have allowed me fifteen

minutes to give an overview of the Public Service Commission. I do not think I

will need all that time but I think I will give you an overview to begin with.

Mr. Chairman and members of the Committee, this is

the first time that I have had the responsibility to report to you in relation

to the operations and mandate of the Public Service Commission. In fact, it is

the first time that I have had the opportunity to be in this position, as

minister, dealing with the Estimates, so it is historical in fact.

The Public Service Commission is the statutory body

with a degree of independence from the ministry; in other words, an arm's-length

arrangement. By doing this, it enables the Commission to have effective

oversight over the protection of the merit principle in recruitment, to credibly

deliver services such as the Employee Assistance Program, and to foster

innovation in public administration.

Now I will just tell you a little bit about the

background. The Public Service Commission was established in 1974 as the primary

institution of government to oversee recruitment and staff development

processes. The objective was to ensure a professional, non-partisan public

service to serve democratically-elected government in this Province.

The Commission, as the agency dedicated to good

public administration in the Province, is responsible for overseeing human

resource processes in all government departments and several agencies,

including: The College of the North Atlantic, the Pippy Park Commission, the

Public Libraries Board and the Medical Care Commission.

In 1996, as part of a reevaluation of the role of

the Commission, a very positive policy decision was made to delegate the

staffing process to all line departments and agencies. This changed a

significant part of the Commission's focus, from actually performing the

staffing process on behalf of departments to setting standards and providing

training to departmental human resources personnel to facilitate the staffing

process within departments.

Some staffing actions, because of their importance

or sensitivity, are still conducted by the Commission. Departments find the

availability of an independent and expert recruitment service is critical in

such circumstances. The delegation has generally meant a more flexible and

streamlined staffing process performed by people closest to departmental

activities, without the need of dealing with a central agency.

I just want to tell you about the current status.

Under the public service reform initiative, strategic planning has been

introduced. Activities in management development and staff training increased,

and a host of other projects initiated aimed at improving how the organization

operates and building capacity so that government's goals may be achieved.

Essentially, the objective of this initiative is to foster and maintain good

public administration.

The Public Service Commission continues to be in a

state of transition. With the new leadership and a renewed focus, the management

structure has been reestablished within the last few months, and the Commission

is once again beginning to take a more activist role in ensuring the

continuation of a strong and vital public service of the Province.

The Commission carries out its statutory mandate

through three divisions, and each is responsible for a distinct operational

area: (1) staffing and compliance; (2) employee and departmental services;

(3) policy and planning.

Firstly, the Staffing and Compliance Division

fulfils the core legislated mandate of the Commission as determined by the

Public Service Commission Act. This mandate is to ensure that merit principles

prevail in the staffing processes. Merit principles are designed to support a

professional, competent and politically neutral public service which provides

good public administration in support of democratic government. The division

accomplishes its goals by establishing standards, policies and procedures for

appointment and promotion to permanent full-time public service positions.

Through a process of monitoring and review, the division oversees the staffing

process in all departments. As part of its oversight role, the division

investigates and mediates complaints that may arise from the delegating,

staffing process. The division also participates in and manages workforce

adjustment programs.

Secondly, the Employee and Departmental Services

Division is responsible, on behalf of government as the employer, and the

Newfoundland Association of Public Employees as bargaining agent, for the

effective deployment of the Employee Assistance Program. In addition, it

provides support for significant organizational change by delivering services to

both employees and departments experiencing organizational change. Some of these

services have focused on assisting employees with the demand changes in their

working environments and their adaptation to significant changes in their career

paths.

This division has also taken a lead role within

government in the development and facilitation of programs to foster a

respectful approach to conflict resolution in the workplace. It is investigating

the concept of employee wellness, and how the working environment may impact on

organizational productivity and effectiveness.

Research in other jurisdictions has shown a

significant impact on work performance by the implementation of these programs.

The studies show that between 20 per cent and 25 per cent of a given group of

employees will have, within a three-year period, personal problems that have a

negative impact on work performance. For every dollar spent on EAP and similar

programs, the studies indicate savings in the range of four to eleven dollars.

The Policy and Planning Division is responsible for

the consultation, development, facilitation and implementation of public service

reform, aimed at improvements to human resource and organizational management.

This has been one of the significant changes in the Commission during the past

year, and one of the key events driving its revitalization as well as the

revitalization of the public service generally.

In summation, I would like to say to the members of

the Committee, the public service has a new vision. The Public Service

Commission intends to see that the public service of Newfoundland and Labrador

is on the leading edge of human resource planning and management. It intends to

ensure, through research and development, that senior managers are current in

their thinking and application of new approaches and techniques to human

relations, equity and fairness in the public service.

The Public Service Commission, and public service

reform, has been a participant in all these innovations. The continuation of

this work is important to employees in the public service, to those of us who

are elected representatives of the people of the Province, and to all citizens,

as a vital public service that will help us face the many public challenges this

Province faces.

In conclusion, I want to remind you again of the

significant changes taking place in the Public Service Commission. Our

consideration of the Estimates for the Commission needs to be seen in that

context. An examination of last year's budget reflects this transition, with

several variances which we will be happy to discuss with you.

In addition, I am confident that the new direction

of the Commission will lead to better results for the public service and the

people of the Province.

Thank you, and we will be pleased to answer any

questions that you might have.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Byrne.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

It seems to me that this government administration,

when it comes to the Public Service Commission, are in a state of (inaudible).

They are certainly flip-flopping all over the place with respect to the Public

Service Commission.

Back three years ago when you had the change in

policy - I am talking of staffing to line department - I remember questioning

the Minister of Finance at the time. He was saying at the time that the reason

we were doing that was that it would be more efficient, more effective, and all

(inaudible). Now we are saying that the Public Service Commission is going to be

in a state of transition and they are going to go back to that type of thing.

In actual fact, when the Public Service Commission

was set up - what you said there - the merit principle for recruitment was

definitely the intention at the time, but over the past three years we have seen

a lot of people hired in government, from what I can see, and they have not gone

through the Public Service Commission. That, to me, left the door wide open for

a lot of public or political appointments in positions in the line departments,

without a merit principle. I can think of a few, actually, in certain

departments, that I can point out to you.

I would just like to hear what your comments are on

my comments.

MS THISTLE: Well, I would have to say to you,

Mr. Byrne, that yes, since 1996 there was a change in focus that the hirings are

now done by the department. The reason for that is that it gives greater

flexibility to the department. I would also have to say to you that it is a real

cost saver.

At that time, in 1996, we had forty-four staff

members dedicated to that responsibility. Now that number has dropped down to

twenty-three. With your reference as well to the hiring practices, each hiring

has been audited. Every single one has been audited by the Public Service

Commission; every hiring in every department during the course of the last year.

MR. J. BYRNE: But once the hiring is done, it

is different than looking at a specific person and saying: Okay, this person is

in a job, and may be qualified to do the job, or has certain qualifications for

it - I do not know (inaudible) question - and say the Public Service Commission

looked at it after they were hired, then again, what about the two, three, ten,

fifteen or twenty people who may have been interested in applying for that

position had it been advertised through the Public Service Commission, who did

not have access or a chance to get hired through the Public Service Commission?

MS THISTLE: Mr. Byrne, basically what is

happening, the best ones who would be aware of the need and the recruitment and

access to employees are the people who actually work in the department; for

instance, deputy ministers. They would have a better and keener knowledge of the

staff necessary to fill whatever responsibilities are within their department.

The process that occurred before was timely, costly, and very inconvenient.

What we see now is greater flexibility in the

hiring process, and we also have a guarantee that each hiring is audited. We

also have staffing that is looked at independently by the Public Service

Commission when there are sensitive issues involved.

MR. J. BYRNE: If you go with that train of

thought, in saying there is better hiring done through the line departments, and

the different corporations they are responsible for, like the Public Service

Commission, why is it a necessity at this point in time - you just mentioned

that in fact, at the time this person put it together back in 1974, I think it

was you said - that it was timely at the time. Is it a necessity now for the

Public Service Commission (inaudible)?

MS THISTLE: If you look back to 1996, you will

agree, I am sure, that this government was faced with a very serious deficit

problem - almost $300 million. As part of our program review - the Public

Service Commission did not escape program review. In looking at program review

within our public service, there was a policy change that was made for two or

three reasons as I have indicated earlier: To delegate more flexibility at the

department level; to provide a cost-saver to the department and government

overall; and to allow for more convenience and actually a greater handle on the

need to hire people that the deputy minister could see directly within his or

her department; the need of hiring someone right away rather than going through

the Public Service Commission. But that did not preclude the fact that there was

a complete audit done on every hiring within every department.

MR. J. BYRNE: Speaking of the audit, I have a

few questions along that line. In the meantime, I notice in the Budget that

Salaries have gone up this year. I had a note made earlier that there were extra

staff that the Public Service Commission required recently (inaudible). Could

you explain to me why that staff would be necessary at this point in time when,

in actual fact, more hiring is being done through the line departments rather

than through the Public Service Commission? Why are we hiring more people at the

Public Service Commission? And did those people - whoever were hired - have to

go through the Public Service Commission to get hired, or were they just

appointed?

MS THISTLE: Mr. Byrne, if you are referring to

Salaries, $1.2 million - you are, aren't you?

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, that and the -

MS THISTLE: The increase at that time was

actually $85,200 and there was an additional $150,000 that was provided for the

Graduate Recruitment Program and was offset by a reduction due to the

non-recurrent twenty-seventh pay period during that time frame. However, with

regard to the actual staffing complement, I will now ask the Chairman to

elaborate on that.

MR. FAOUR: Thank you, Minister and Mr.

Chairman.

I appreciate the opportunity to be here.

CHAIR: Could you identify yourself for

recording purposes? I am sorry, I forgot to mention that.

MR. FAOUR: Alright, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I

am Fonse Faour from the Public Service Commission.

Mr. Byrne, I guess a couple of points. First, the

Public Service Commission has not increased the staff complement, in terms of

new staff, from last year. We did transfer four positions from the Executive

Council last year, in July or August - late July - who were the staff

responsible for the public service reform initiative, but those were existing

staff already; they were not new hires.

The Public Service Commission, in July, had a staff

complement of eighteen with the four, and that was reduced from approximately

forty about two years ago. The four staff that came from Executive Council with

the respect to the public service reform initiative were staff already in place.

Now the Public Service Commission has a staff complement of twenty-two.

We do have occasionally, because of special

projects which receive funding from other sources, we may have one or two

individuals on projects. Right now we do have two other people on special

projects, but in terms of the permanent staff complement it has not changed.

MR. J. BYRNE: These four individuals from the

Executive Council, what were they responsible for at Executive Council, and what

was the necessity of (inaudible)?

MR. FAOUR: They were responsible for the public

service reform initiative, and for that purpose had been seconded from some

other parts of government, from the training area. One, in fact, came originally

from the PSC but the position was transferred out or terminated with the

downsizing of the PSC.

Public service reform, two years ago, was a new

initiative and it was designed to revitalized, I guess, the public service

following the several years of downsizing that the public service had undergone.

Over the last couple of years - it began its operations in early 1997 and, the

work it was doing, it seemed logical that it should continue its work as part of

the Commission. The kind of work it was involved in was the kind of things you

need to do to maintain a professional public service organization, and

traditionally that has been the role of the public service in addition to the

staffing role. The staffing role was the core role, but the Public Service

Commission historically, over its twenty-five year history, has had a

significant involvement in things like management development, executive

development, those kinds of things.

MR. J. BYRNE: Temporary positions and

contractual positions can be hired outside the Public Service Commission, and

there have been a fair number of them over the past few years, I do believe. I

have two things to ask you with respect to these.

Number one: I do not think there should be a big

problem - I thought there might be at first, but since the minister answered

that there has been an audit done on all the positions hired within the civil

service, and the corporations responsible for them - since 1996 when the policy

changed, could I get a list of the temporary and/or contractual positions that

have been given to individuals since 1996, since the policy change, and the

applicable departments and positions?

MR. FAOUR: Mr. Byrne, the Commission has no

involvement in temporary and contractual hires. What it does have is a direct

responsibility for permanent hires within the public service. We may have an

involvement in a temporary hire if a temporary position is sought to be made

permanent after the fact, and we would be very much involved in that. The

temporary and contractual positions and appointments are exempted from the

Public Service Commission Act by the Act itself. We do not monitor that; we do

not have a record of it.

If departments are planning -

MR. J. BYRNE: Could I interrupt here?

MR. FAOUR: Sure.

MR. J. BYRNE: It was stated by the minister

that all positions are audited by the Public Service Commission, or have been

audited by the Public Service Commission. If that is the case, then particularly

permanent positions should not be a problem.

If it is temporary and contractual positions within

line departments and corporations that you are not responsible for, then I will

direct my question to the minister; because she had (inaudible) to me the hiring

of temporary and contractual positions in the departments, and the positions.

I also want a list - if I can get it - from the

Public Service Commission, of people who were hired through the Public Service

Commission and their staff, or the departments they were hiring for, and the

temporary positions. I want, basically, two lists. The other one would be the

ones who were hired outside the Public Service Commission.

What I am trying to get a handle on, I suppose, is:

How many people have been hired over the past three years, since the policy

changed, through the Public Service Commission, outside the Public Service

Commission, and the temporary and contractual positions (inaudible). You are the

minister and you are the director, is it, of the Public Service Commission?

MS THISTLE: Chairman and CEO.

MR. J. BYRNE: Chairman and CEO.

I do not think that is -

MS THISTLE: Mr. Byrne, I would have to say to

you that I would accept your request in writing and I will respond to you. Would

you please put your request in writing?

MR. J. BYRNE: Should I also put in a request to

the CEO?

MS THISTLE: Well, you can put your request to

me. I will check on that through the act and, if it is applicable, you will get

the information you require.

WITNESS: If it is applicable (inaudible).

MS THISTLE: If it is within the act.

All I am saying to you, Mr. Byrne, is to put your

request in writing and I will review your request and respond to you

accordingly.

MR. J. BYRNE: I shall do that. It will not be a

problem.

I have no further questions at this point.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Byrne.

Mr. Sweeney.

MR. SWEENEY: No questions.

CHAIR: Mr. Andersen.

MR. ANDERSEN: No questions.

CHAIR: Mr. Joyce.

MR. JOYCE: Just a comment, Sir.

I know the changes at the Public Service Commission

have helped with training and helped with staff development. Personally, I know

a lot of people who went through it. I would like to congratulate the Public

Service Commission because I know a lot of people who went through your program,

and it is definitely a benefit in the last three years.

Congratulations. I think it is making a difference,

upgrading the level of people, and they know they have a place to go for

assistance. I think you program is working.

CHAIR: Mr. Fitzgerald.

MS THISTLE: Could I please respond to Mr.

Joyce, Mr. Chairman?

I have had the opportunity to actually have two

speaking engagements to the public sector employees since becoming appointed to

this position, and I was so pleased with the response and the feeling that is

out there today in the public service. There is a feeling of stability, and I am

sure you will all agree that was not there three years ago when the

pre-Christmas adjustment was done and most public sector employees were pretty

worried about their jobs before Christmas when budget adjustments were done.

I think, if you speak to anybody out there today,

that since the program review there has been a different measure of stability

within the public sector employee group. People are now feeling comfortable in

going out and getting on with their lives, and making big decisions they had on

hold for many years. A lot of it is largely attributed to the work of the

Commission, particularly in lifting the morale in new training initiatives and

so on.

I, too, would like to congratulate the executive

and the staff on a continuing job that is well done.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Fitzgerald.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I do not have a lot of questions. In fact,

Minister, I guess this particular department, the Public Service Commission, is

probably the smallest heading within the Estimates.

Where is the Sir Brian Dunfield Building?

MS THISTLE: That is in Corner Brook, the Sir

Brian Dunfield Building. Isn't it? Where is it?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. FAOUR: It is the Newfoundland and Labrador

Housing Corporation building in the West End of St. John's.

MS THISTLE: Is that what it is called?

MR. FAOUR: Yes.

MR. FITZGERALD: That makes two of us, because I

did not know either. When I looked at it I thought it might have been in Corner

Brook or somewhere on the West Coast. (Inaudible) -

MR. FAOUR: Maybe if we could arrange that, with

the approval of the minister.

MR. FITZGERALD: (Inaudible) I was going to ask

if you paid for the wages and the trips back and forth.

MS THISTLE: What is the name of (inaudible)?

MR. FAOUR: The Sir Richard Squires Building.

MS THISTLE: The Sir Richard Squires Building,

is it? Okay.

MR. FITZGERALD: (Inaudible) housing

(inaudible).

MR. ANDERSEN: There is another one, the George

Dunphy Building in Corner Brook, too.

MS THISTLE: Yes, there is.

MR. ANDERSEN: On Main Street there.

MS THISTLE: I thought it was. That is why it

sounded (inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: I just wanted to go down

through some of the Estimates here. I understand Mr. Faour said there were

twenty-two employees within the Public Service Commission. In Transportation and

Communications, those numbers to me seem kind of high. I do not know what is

included under Communications: telephones I guess, and that sort of thing. For

twenty-two employees, $149,600 seems kind of high. What else should be included

in that? Is it strictly Transportation and Communications, telephone bills, et

cetera?

MR. FAOUR: Mr. Fitzgerald, the Commission's

work is Province-wide in terms of monitoring and reviewing staffing

transactions. Often these staffing transactions happen in different parts of the

Province. It is necessary to travel for the process of review and monitoring

transactions, and also to conduct training sessions for HR managers in the

various departments in different regions for the staffing process.

A significant part of the Transportation relates to

two programs, I guess. There is the Employee Assistance Program, where there is

a number of courses and training sessions in response to organizational change;

programs we call Fostering Resilience, things like that, where there has been

significant change in the organization in recent years. These programs are run

all over the Province for public employees and they assist employees in renewing

their skills in terms of their career paths and their career directions, given

that the organization is changing quite dramatically.

The final significant project area is in the public

service reform area. Again, we have made a strong effort to make sure that the

initiatives are not confined to St. John's. When we conduct sessions in Gander,

Clarenville, Corner Brook and Goose Bay for public employees in those areas -

and we are trying to do it on a fairly regular basis throughout the year - there

are significant costs associated with them.

As to transportation, I guess it is fair to say

that most of our professional staff travel on a fairly regular basis around the

Province in putting forth their programs. I should say as well that last year we

were in a state of transition and it is reflected in the fact that our actual

expenditures in this area were somewhat lower than they had been historically.

We had requested the amount you see there as an historical amount based on our

expectation that as we get through the transition period we will be raising our

level of activity outside St. John's again.

MR. FITZGERALD: What kind of Professional

Services would the PSC use?

MR. FAOUR: The bulk of Professional Services is

in contracted services for the Employee Assistance Program: Counsellors, people

who can intervene in a personal crisis situation. The EAP is a program run by

the Commission on behalf of the union and the government as the employer. A

significant chunk of the service is provided to individuals by professional

counsellors from outside the government, mainly because we need them in all

parts of the Province and we need to be able to engage them as we need them. A

crisis may come up at fairly short notice. The bulk of that is in that area.

MR. FITZGERALD: Would those types of services

be advertised for, or would you be using them from another department of

government? How would I get my name included in your list of professional

services whom you might call if the need arose?

MR. FAOUR: Our staff has a list of all the

qualified counsellors around the Province and works with them to ensure that

they could provide the service for the EAP program. I don't believe it has been

advertised in recent years. It may be something we should do. What ends up

happening is these services tend to be needed at a fairly short notice because

of an urgent need at the moment.

One of the things we have talked about is having a

pre-qualifying process where people would be pre-qualified to be on a list that

could be accessed.

MR. FITZGERALD: It would be nice if those

people knew that so that they could have their name added to the list because

work is important.

When you look at advertising for positions within

the Public Service Commission, or you apply through the Public Service

Commission, are you people now advertising in the daily papers as you always did

or is it going to an electronic media? I understand Works, Services and

Transportation is putting many of their contracts out through calls through the

electronic media and the Internet. Are you people thinking about doing the same

thing? Are you planning on committing to use the print media?

MR. FAOUR: I guess we have been expanding in a

couple of areas. One, we have been using the Internet for job postings for - I

am not sure (inaudible). We have been using it for some time.

WITNESS: Six months.

MR. FAOUR: About six months, and we have also,

just in November, begun an initiative to cooperate with the federal government

on a program we call InfoTel. The federal government through its PSC has a

phone-in service. Provincial government job openings can be advertised on that

phone-in service as well. So besides using print media we are using telephone

and we are using the Internet. We are looking to expand these areas as -

MR. FITZGERALD: But you will maintain the print

media as well?

MR. FAOUR: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: It was only the other day - and

I don't even know where I saw it - where I understand there are a couple of

companies now that contractors must pay $360 a year to be a member of.

Government contracts, tenders, will go to those particular companies and those

companies in turn will relay them to the people who are registered with them.

I think that is terrible. I don't think people

should have to pay $300 or $100 to a company to get information that is being

brought forward by government. I think that should be readily available. When

you look at the electronic media - that is good stuff, nothing wrong with it, to

use it in conjunction with something else - but there are a lot of places in

rural Newfoundland and Labrador today that don't have access to the Internet.

There are a lot of families out there who do not have access to computers and

probably never will, and businesses as well. The paper is readily available. It

is inexpensive and it is something that I think should be maintained. I just

want to leave that for my comments on that particular topic.

Under Allowances and Assistance, there was nothing

budgeted in 1998-1999. It was revised to $86,500 and this year it is $115,000.

What allowances and assistance would be included in those figures?

MS THISTLE: That one, Mr. Fitzgerald, was the

provision of an allowance to MUN to cover the salary of Robert Olivero as a

fellow of the J.G. Channing Chair. That is the annualization of the allowance to

MUN. So that was a one time thing.

MR. FITZGERALD: Okay.

MR. J. BYRNE: (Inaudible) this year.

MS THISTLE: Yes, but it is an annual thing.

MR. J. BYRNE: Then why (inaudible)?

MS THISTLE: Wasn't it? (Inaudible)?

MR. FITZGERALD: So is it a set amount?

MS THISTLE: Yes. (Inaudible).

MR. FAOUR: If I may? The Channing Chair has

been used in the past, since the early 1980s. The government of the day brought

it in as a way of increasing connections between the public service and the

university. The way it was used through most of the 1980s, and until the early

1990s, was that senior public servants may be seconded for one, two, or three

years to the university but we would pay their salary. We have not used it in

recent years, again because of fiscal pressures.

This past year we were concerned that there was a

need to develop public administration capacity in the Province, ideally at the

university. Mr. Olivero, as the former chair of the Commission, has an academic

background. It was viewed as a positive thing to put him at the university and

reinstate the Channing Chair. Traditionally, the Channing Chair has been funded

through the Public Service Commission as a development opportunity for the

public service. So what that reflects is the reinstatement of a program that had

not been used for - I think the last time it was used was in 1990 or 1991.

MR. FITZGERALD: So where does it end up? It was

$86,500, now it is $115,000. It is not a set amount that you put forward every

year, obviously.

MR. FAOUR: It will be $115,000 approximately.

As I understand the contract, he will get the salary he had here plus a small

operating allowance. The university will provide office support and so on. The

$86,500 in last year's budget was because it was for nine months of the year. So

it will be $115,000 until this one expires.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR: Thank you very much, Mr. Fitzgerald.

Any questions on this side?

Mr. Byrne.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I just want to make it clear. I am not - I'm

referring to the comment of Mr. Joyce - criticizing the Public Service

Commission, because I think the Public Service Commission is an entity that was

put in place at the right time, and is something that should be utilized by

government. I disagree with government and line departments hiring people

through departments. The Public Service Commission is there for a purpose. It

should still be utilized and I am not criticizing what is going on there. There

may be many good things happening, but it is not being utilized to the full

extent that it could perform, and I disagree with the (inaudible) change.

I said that three years ago when I asked questions

of Mr. Dicks in the House of Assembly. Basically, it is a fine department. If I

have any other questions I will put them in writing to the minister (inaudible).

CHAIR: Thank you very much.

MS THISTLE: Mr. Chairman, before we conclude I

would just like, for the record, to direct, really to Mr. Byrne, this comment.

The audit I talked about that was conducted by the Public Service Commission, I

said on all positions. I meant to specify permanent positions. I would like to

state for the record that that was intended to be permanent positions.

I would also like to mention that Public Service

Week is June 14 to June 18. It is another time for us to acknowledge our public

servants. I would like to thank this Committee here today for your oral

questions and good dialogue.

MR. JOYCE: Could I just ask one question?

CHAIR: Sure.

MR. JOYCE: The Opening Doors policy, is that

under the Public Service Commission?

MS THISTLE: That is under Treasury Board, yes.

MR. JOYCE: Treasury Board. I think that is an

ideal program. I think it is a program that is helping a lot of people who

otherwise would not gain the experience through, sometimes, drawbacks or

(inaudible) they may have. If there is any way to enhance that program, I think

it would bring a lot less fortunate people into the mainstream. I think it is a

great program if we could enhance it.

MS THISTLE: It is. That is a program that is

cost-shared between the federal and provincial governments. It has been a

wonderful program, as Mr. Joyce has said. An awful lot of people with

disabilities who would not otherwise find employment have secured employment

through that program and have been updating their skills and finding the dignity

to work like other people. Yes, it is a very successful program.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

I detect there are no more questions. I will now

ask the Clerk to call the head.

On motion, subhead 1.1.01, carried.

On motion, Public Service Commission, total heads,

carried.

CHAIR: On behalf of the Committee, Minister, I

want to thank you for coming. I want to thank your staff for coming. I noticed

that you noted you were new. Being new puts a fresh face on everything. The

Public Service Commission has done a good job. We recognize that, and on behalf

of the Committee say thank you for appearing here. We are pleased with the

answers that we received. Thank you very much.

On motion, the Committee adjourned.