Fifth Session, 41st Parliament

(2020) OFFICIAL REPORT

OF DEBATES

(HANSARD)

Friday, August 14, 2020

Morning Sitting

Issue No. 359

ISSN 1499-2175

The HTML transcript is provided for informational purposes only.

The PDF transcript remains the official digital version.

CONTENTS

Routine Business

Tabling Documents

Parliamentary Practice in British Columbia , fifth edition

Orders of the Day

Committee of Supply

Estimates: Office of the Premier

A. Wilkinson

Hon. J. Horgan

FRIDAY, AUGUST 14, 2020

The House met at 10:05 a.m.

[Mr. Speaker in the chair.]

Routine Business

Prayers and reflections: L. Reid.

Tabling Documents

Mr. Speaker: Members, before proceeding, I would like to take the opportunity to

table our new Parliamentary Practice in British Columbia , fifth

edition, book.

This is must-reading for everyone who is an elected member here. I’m

not sure people otherwise might spend this as bedtime reading. It’s a

wonderful new edition. This serves as a procedural authority for our

Legislative Assembly, and it was published earlier this year.

I wish to thank and congratulate our Clerk, Kate Ryan-Lloyd, who

edited this edition with the assistance of assistant editors Artour

Sogomonian, Susan Sourial and Ron Wall.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, Kate. Wonderful job.

They were assisted by staff across the Legislative Assembly who pulled

together to produce this impressive volume amidst many other priorities,

which you’re all familiar with. This book is a testament to the talented

staff at the Legislative Assembly and its service.

Congratulations and many thanks to all those who were involved in

putting together this book.

Orders of the Day

Hon. M. Farnworth: In this chamber, I call debate on the estimates of the Premier’s

office.

Committee of Supply

ESTIMATES: OFFICE OF THE PREMIER

The House in Committee of Supply (Section B); R. Chouhan in the

chair.

The committee met at 10:08 a.m.

On Vote 11: Office of the Premier, $11,334,000.

A. Wilkinson: This year, of course, is like none other in our lifetimes — or

possibly any lifetime in living memory — in that earlier this year, a

world pandemic was declared.

British Columbia became exposed to the pandemic in a serious way

in early March. Many of us will remember Friday, March 13, as the date

when many, many people went home from office work, and in fact, many

have never returned.

We now see empty office buildings, empty restaurants, empty

hotels. Of course, this has taken a toll on British Columbians,

Canadians, and of course, it has had major economic effects. The most

obvious measure of this is unemployment, which has risen

dramatically.

The B.C. Stats report for May 2020 listed the entire British

Columbia labour force at 2.5 million people and said that 338,000 of

them were unemployed. That provided for a 13 percent unemployment

rate.

[10:10 a.m.]

A couple of weeks ago the Finance Minister stood in this chamber

and said, in terms of the B.C. emergency benefit for workers: “We have

651,000 applications received, and 623,000 have been paid….This is our

$1,000 benefit, as the member knows. Do we expect that we’ll see any

further applications? Yes, I expect we will. I expect that there will be

people who will still be utilizing the weeks that they have left on the

CERB benefit” — of course, the Canada emergency response benefit of

$2,000 a month — “which will provide them the opportunity to be able to

claim this benefit, as well.”

I think it goes without saying that we know in this House that the

$1,000 one-time payment was provided for British Columbians who met the

CERB criteria, which included having stopped working due to

COVID-19.

The question to the Premier is: what is the real number of British

Columbians out of work? Is it the 338,000 stated in May of 2020, or is

it the 623,000 who received the provincial payments?

Hon. J. Horgan: If the Leader of the Opposition will indulge me, I was

anticipating an opening statement. Clearly, we got out of line there,

out of order. I’m going to proceed with that, and then I’ll get to the

member’s question.

I want to first acknowledge that we are assembled on the

traditional territories of the

Lək̓ʷəŋin̓əŋ-speaking people, the

Esquimalt and Songhees First Nations.

I’m grateful to have the opportunity, after the third anniversary

of the privilege of being sworn in as Premier, to stand today and work

with members of the House to discuss the issues of the day — as well, of

course, most importantly, to approve the budget for the Office of the

Premier.

I’m joined virtually by my deputy minister, Don Wright, and my

chief of staff, Geoff Meggs. Joining me, I think, in the chamber is the

executive director of operations for the Premier’s office, Vanessa

Geary.

For those who are watching, I’m going to be putting an earbud in

my ear. Traditionally, when estimates debates take place, ministers,

Premiers and others are surrounded by staff so that we can give the best

possible answer to the questions raised by members of the Legislature.

Because of COVID-19, we have an extraordinary session ahead of us — or,

actually, now just behind us, with this being the last day of the

session. I’ll be using an earbud so that I can converse with staff who

are not in the precinct with me so I can give the best, most

comprehensive answers possible.

A lot has changed, as the Leader of the Opposition has said, since

we last gathered here to discuss the Premier’s estimates — incalculable

changes in the lives of every single British Columbian. Indeed, the

entire world has been gripped in a global pandemic. COVID-19 has created

challenges for individuals, for communities and for the province that

none of us could have contemplated. Not since 1918 has there been a

challenge like this for all of us to collectively take on.

I know that as the day wears on, our patience with each other will

start to fray. But I do want to say, at the outset, that I absolutely am

grateful for the supports of members of the opposition over the past

number of months to work together, collaboratively, to address the

challenges that British Columbians have been working on. Together I’m

convinced that we will be doing our level best, not just to this point

in time but in the months and weeks ahead, to address the concerns of

people.

We entered the pandemic as leaders in Canada. We had very low

unemployment. We had an enviable financial ledger. The Finance Minister

tabled three successive balanced budgets with a three-year plan to

balance year after year after year.

All of that now, of course, is a distant memory. Six months ago

all of that changed. Instead of leading the country in all of the

economic indicators that you can imagine, we have found just a complete

collapse in revenues. We’ve seen challenges, as the Leader of the

Opposition just outlined, for small businesses in every corner of the

province and in every sector of the economy.

Civil society has, gratefully, come together in large measure.

People are being kinder. People are reaching out to help each

other.

I remember full well the early days of the pandemic when all of

us, together, stood on our back porches or on the street corner and

banged pots to celebrate the contributions and sacrifices of front-line

workers, whether they be working in our hospitals, taking care of our

ill; whether they worked in care homes, taking care of our elderly; or

whether they worked in the supermarket, making sure that the food and

goods that we needed to keep ourselves going were there.

[10:15 a.m.]

People answered the call. People stepped up. There was a sense,

across the country, of common purpose.

That common purpose manifested itself in a number of ways, one of

which was somewhere in the neighbourhood of 21 Premiers meetings with

all of the other Premiers across the country and 16 first ministers

meetings with the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister and, again,

Premiers across the country. All different political points of view. The

spectrum was completely canvassed from coast to coast to coast. The

traditional divisions within Canada were forgotten. The barriers that

often created challenges for provinces were forgotten. We worked

together to see how we could come through this.

Now, six months later, we are seeing positive results from that

collective effort, but there’s still a great deal of work to do. I know

that over the next number of hours, the Leader of the Opposition and

other members of the Legislature will be raising those issues. But I

just want to touch on a couple of the things that we’ve been able to

accomplish that may not come up in the course of our discussions this

morning but I want to have on the record.

First of all, I want to commend Dr. Bonnie Henry for her

extraordinary work, day after day after day without a break, to be the

voice of the pandemic here in British Columbia. Her professionalism, her

experience and her demeanour have been exactly, in my opinion, what

British Columbians needed. I hear that wherever I go. I know all members

of the Legislature feel the same way.

We did a whole bunch of things in a short period of time. We

pushed to make sure that our borders would stay closed so that we could

keep those who were not working as diligently as British Columbians to

bend the curve would stay in their places, particularly those south of

the border. I know today Minister Blair, at the federal level, has

extended the border closure into September 21.

We fixed some of the challenges in long-term care. Regrettably,

many, many people lost their lives. There are British Columbians today

who did not get to see their parents or their grandparents before they

passed away from COVID-19. We are doing everything we can to make sure

that we can make up for that for those elderly people who are now in

long-term care and the children, grandchildren, friends and family who

want to see them at this difficult time.

We implemented a testing strategy and a contact tracing strategy

that was, again, the envy of the country. We stood up and said: “We need

a national sick pay program so that people don’t go to work when they’re

ill because they feel they have no other choices.”

Those were all initiatives that began here in British Columbia —

collectively, all of us. This is not about back-patting. This is an

acknowledgment to all of us, every single one of us in this Legislature,

that there was a time — and we’ve now seen it pass — when we were all on

the same page. I think that gave hope to British Columbians. I think

that gave hope to the people of Canada that all of us together are

greater than some of us apart.

Have there been heroic stories of contributions by Canadians?

Absolutely. Have there been examples of extreme bad behaviour?

Regrettably, there have. Have we seen the most vulnerable bear the brunt

of these challenges? We have — women, children, people of colour and

Indigenous communities, all very concerned and uncertain about the

future.

As we go into the debate this afternoon, as we talk about the

issues that I know are very pressing for members of the Legislature and

for British Columbians, I hope that we can enter into this discussion

with the same level of cooperation that we began with back in March,

when we had an extraordinary session with a handful of members in this

House to secure some resources so that we could get them into peoples’

pockets right away, to make sure that we were protecting people’s

well-being.

We were making sure that they were able to meet their needs,

ensuring that they would not be evicted and ensuring that they could get

through this pandemic. We did that together, and I think we’re all very,

very proud of that.

Regardless of what happens today and regardless of what happens in

the weeks ahead, I’m hopeful. I know I certainly will look back fondly

at the esprit de corps and the collaboration that all members of this

House and all of the staff in this institution brought to bear to get us

to this point.

I want to commend the public service of British Columbia, the

professional public service that has gone to extraordinary lengths —

outside of their comfort zone, in many cases — to protect British

Columbians and to provide the services that British Columbians depend

upon.

With that, I know…. I’ll perhaps ask the Leader of the Opposition

to phrase his question one more time in terms of the specific number

he’s looking for. I’ll be happy to answer questions throughout the rest

of the day.

[10:20 a.m.]

A. Wilkinson: Just to restate the question, the Premier sat on the executive

council that voted to pay $623 million out to 623,000 people in British

Columbia who met the federal criteria of having lost their jobs, yet

unemployment is stated to be 338,000. So which is the real

number?

Hon. J. Horgan: What I can say is that starting in March and April, people were

laid off. Some were then recalled. We know that from March, 668,000

people applied for employment insurance, and then, of course, we

contributed our component part of that for the emergency worker

fund.

We still are trying to grapple with the numbers. We do know that

almost 200,000 people, according to StatsCan, have gone back into the

workforce here in British Columbia. So the discrepancy between the

668,000 and the 200,000 we have going out right now could be 468,000.

But the member will know that some of those statistics would have just

been people going back to the jobs they had. They were suspended because

of the health pandemic and may not have even registered in any way. So

they could be measured today.

there were 1.138 million applicants for CERB. We don’t know how many of

those have actually been paid out, but clearly, the government of

British Columbia decided that 668,000 of them were unemployed in May. Is

that correct?

[10:25 a.m.]

Hon. J. Horgan: We can’t explain the CERB numbers. That’s federal data. We can

say that between March 1 and August 12, 668

applications for employment insurance originated in British

Columbia.

A. Wilkinson: We assume the Premier means 668,000, rather than 668.

Interjection.

A. Wilkinson: Yes. Of course we realize that numbers matter here. When the

official unemployment numbers are reported as 338,000 but the Premier

reports that 668,000 people received cheques for $1,000, that’s a

discrepancy of 330,000 people. So can we just have an understanding? Is

it the Premier’s understanding that 668,000 people lost their jobs this

spring?

Hon. J. Horgan: I appreciate the member’s patience. Again, the 668,000

applications for the workers benefit were not necessarily all unemployed

in the truest sense of the word. They could have been parents who chose

to stay home because the school system was closed. They were ineligible

for the fund.

Our focus, the whole point, was to make sure that people were held

as close to what they were at when the pandemic began. The CERB was the

application process that we used to verify. We assumed the federal

government’s processes would give us that indicator. British Columbia

provided this workers benefit on top of the CERB because of costs in

British Columbia.

[10:30 a.m.]

I don’t want the member to hold fast to the 668,000 as all, in the

truest sense of the word, unemployed. Many of them could have been laid

off because of the pandemic, potential health orders or because the

business felt that even if there was no order, it was better to shut

down. As they started back up again, they had applied for the worker

benefit but had not been declared officially unemployed by

StatsCan.

A. Wilkinson: Well, this is becoming a bit of a rat’s nest, Premier.

The program was called B.C. emergency benefit for workers. The

CERB criteria required that someone had stopped working due to COVID-19

or be eligible for employment insurance regular assistance benefits.

They have to have left a job to get CERB, and supposedly, they had to

leave work to get the British Columbia emergency benefit for

workers.

In addition, we can add on 90,000 students who received the

federal benefit, the Canada emergency student benefit. So now we’re

looking at 758,000 people who were without work this spring who either

were anticipating being in work, like students, or who actually lost

work.

I’ll make an aside here. In general practice medicine, there’s a

well-known aphorism that the best consultant, the best specialist is the

one who is prepared to say, “I don’t know,” because saying “I don’t

know” means they don’t make mistakes.

Premier, with 758,000 people apparently out of work this spring

and your inability to describe why they were receiving cheques, would

you prefer just to say you don’t know the answer?

Hon. J. Horgan: Again, for the benefit of those that are watching at home and for

the benefit of the colleagues that are assembled here today…. The

Minister of Finance was here on her feet for 15 hours, able and ready to

answer those questions. I’m here to defend the budget for the Premier’s

office, talk about broad policy across government.

As with last year, the choice that the Leader of the Opposition

has made is to pull numbers out of the air that I don’t have any context

for, knowing full well that I have an earbud in my ear rather than

access to the professionals that could give a ready answer to that

question and instead of talking about the broad policies.

Why did we bring forward the workers benefit? Why were we

responding to the challenges in the community? Because there was need,

hon. Member. I appreciate that you want to talk to me about these

issues, throwing numbers out and saying: why don’t I know why the number

is that size, or why is it smaller or larger than another number? But

the point of the matter is, you had the Minister of Finance with

countless hundreds of staff able and ready to answer those questions

yesterday.

I’m prepared to say, if the member is satisfied with that and we

can move on to other issues, that I can’t give a specific answer to his

question.

A. Wilkinson: Well, having worked in the Premier’s office myself in the past,

it’s crystal clear that the man at the other end of the earpiece is the

head of the British Columbia civil service, Don Wright. There are

roughly 28,000 civil servants at his disposal, and a few thousand of

those were at the disposal of the Finance Minister for the previous

day’s estimates.

I’ll come back to the question. So 758,000 being unemployed

amounts to an unemployment rate of 28½ percent in this province. Just

let that sink in. Premier, if you and your staff can’t answer the

questions, you have to wonder why we’re here.

The Chair: Member, through the Chair, please.

[10:35 a.m.]

Hon. J. Horgan: Again, I hope this satisfies the Leader of the Opposition. Over

the six-month period that we’re talking about, 668,000 British

Columbians applied for unemployment insurance. That does not mean that

for that whole period of time, 668,000 British Columbians were

unemployed. Stats Canada does a very able job of providing the

unemployment rate on a month-by-month basis, and I would suggest that

that’s a better indicator for the member to focus on.

A. Wilkinson: Let’s focus on this for a moment, Premier. If 338,000 people are

reported to be unemployed in May by B.C. Stats, and then in July, they

report that 295,000 people were unemployed in British Columbia, are

those two different sets of people to add up to the 758,000? I’m

suggesting your answer makes no sense. Is there a rolling ball of

unemployment with people going in and out of work, hundreds of thousands

of people at a time?

The point being: your government has paid out $668 million to

British Columbians on the premise that they were unemployed. All we’re

trying to establish here is whether or not you know: (

a) is that

accurate — all those people were unemployed; and (

b) do our unemployment

statistics understate that 758,000 people were without work this spring

at one point or another?

Hon. J. Horgan: Again, I want to just remind the member and those on the other

side that the objective was to be there for British Columbians and, from

the CERB process, for Canadians when they needed the help. The CERB was

available to people who, in any two-week period, lost their job, had

temporary reduction in hours to zero or had their income reduced to

below $1,000 a month. There were a number of criteria.

Stats Canada reports that the decline from 348,000 in June to

295,000 in July is a decline and better than the national average. Now,

again, I appreciate that the member wants to indulge back and forth on

how we were accumulating these numbers. I want to reassure him that the

diligence that was put in place by the professional public service

within the Ministry of Finance to ensure that we were monitoring and

checking where these dollars were going was all with the objective of

helping British Columbians.

[10:40 a.m.]

I’m pretty proud of what we’ve been able to accomplish in a short

period of time. We’re going to continue to monitor these numbers, and

hopefully, we’ll see continued growth in job creation, as we have over

the past number of months — almost 200,000 jobs in May and

June.

A. Wilkinson: Well, coming back to StatsCan, the number that we get from the

July employment report is actually 21,000 full-time jobs and 48,000

part-time jobs, nowhere near what the Premier talks about in terms of

200,000 jobs.

The underlying point here, Premier, is not the inference you make

that there may have been fraud, rather that we’re utterly befuddled

about what the real unemployment numbers are when you and your cabinet

have paid out $668 million to 668,000 people plus the 90,000 students

who have received the federal benefit, for a total of 758,000 people who

have been out of work this spring.

This is a very simple question I’ve been putting to you, and

you’re finding ways to avoid the answer.

The Chair: Through the Chair, Member.

A. Wilkinson: Just to wrap this point up, it’s entirely reasonable for you as

Premier to say: “I just don’t know. I’ll get back to you.” Would you

like to take that option?

Hon. J. Horgan: Again, we have gone through 22 sets of budget estimates canvassing

a range of issues. These issues have been canvassed. Hansard

will record most of the data that the member is looking for. If he wants

to put his question in writing so that I can examine the numbers and a

context, I’m happy to get back to him with more specificity.

A. Wilkinson: Quite obviously, the answer is: “I don’t know.” Coming from the

chair of the executive council of the government of British Columbia

with 28,000 civil servants and a $65 billion budget, I must say it’s a

little alarming that the Premier can’t tell us what the unemployment

rate is when he has just issued cheques for $668 million. However, we’ll

move on, because it’s abundantly clear the Premier can’t answer the

question.

Talking about the Premier’s economic response team, there is a

newspaper

article in the Vancouver Sun , August 6, 2020. The

headline is: “Thousands of B.C. businesses close as disease takes toll.”

This is happening all over the world. More specifically in British

Columbia, the

article states: “More than 14,000 B.C. businesses closed

during the first two months of the COVID-19 pandemic,” according to

Stats Canada. “Bridgitte Anderson, CEO of the Greater Vancouver Board of

Trade, said the statistics painted a ‘terrible’ picture.”

We note that Bridgitte Anderson is one of the key members of the

Premier’s economic response team, which we can call PERT. She says that

thousands of businesses have ceased to exist.

In terms of the plan for recovery, we note what’s happened across

the country. Most provincial governments have taken this step.

Saskatchewan released theirs two months ago, on June 15. Alberta

released theirs seven weeks ago, on June 29; Ontario, July 6; Quebec,

two and a half months ago, on June 3.

We’ve had five months, almost to the day, since the Premier

announced, on March 23, that there would be the PERT group put together,

consisting primarily of Bridgitte Anderson, Greg D’Avignon from the B.C.

Business Council, Anita Huberman from the Surrey Board of Trade and Val

Litwin from the B.C. Chamber of Commerce. Yet we have seen nothing in

terms of work product — nothing at all. So we have to start to wonder if

some of the concerns are valid.

On July 14, the Finance Minister gave an update and said:

“Industries such as accommodation and food services, wholesale and

resale, trade information, culture and recreation, transportation are

not expected to fully recover their job losses by the end of 2021.”

That’s 18 months of this continuing saga of unemployment with no sign of

a response plan from the Premier to date.

The polls show that 16 percent of businesses are confident that

when the province eventually launches a recovery plan, it will help

their business succeed through COVID.

[10:45 a.m.]

Now, the Premier, on March 23, raised expectations. “The public

needs to have comfort that the government kick-start and stimulate

economic activity. That’s what we’re doing, working with the private

sector, putting together this task force so that we can, indeed, lay out

with confidence to the public that there is a plan.” That was March

On July 29, Business in Vancouver reported: “The

prov­ince’s business advisory exercise is taking the summer off.”

Those 668,000 people who lost their jobs are not taking the summer off

voluntarily.

The Business Council was driven to release its own plan on July 29

to fill the vacuum shown by the lack of leadership from this executive

council in putting together any kind of plan. This is what Greg

D’Avignon had to say from the Business Council: “In B.C., there have

been some measures taken, but most of them have just been deferrals. I

would say, largely, the provincial government has not had an economic

recovery strategy. We’ve had a health recovery strategy masking as an

economic strategy. There’s a reckoning coming in the fall, and I’m

really worried about that.”

Bridgitte Anderson, July 16: “The viability of many businesses

hinges on the government acting quickly in rolling out a recovery plan.”

That was a month ago.

Bridgitte Anderson again: “We have known for months that many

businesses were suffering and now…we are starting to see the true

picture, and it’s a terrible one. Thousands of businesses have ceased to

exist already.”

Jock Finlayson, last week, August 7: “Where we haven’t seen much

out of the province is immediate economic recovery and also building

foundations for prosperity…. Ultimately, it’s up to the government to

lead on this.”

Expectations are running high. There has been no result. The

vacuum is being filled by the private sector releasing its own plans

with hopes and expectations. After five months, we have seen nothing

from the Premier’s economic recovery team.

Premier, when will we see the plan that British Columbians are

desperately calling out for?

Hon. J. Horgan: Again, I appreciate the questions from the member

opposite.

At the beginning of the pandemic, we all agreed that we needed to

focus on keeping people safe and rebuilding our economy.

I have a disagreement with the Leader of the Opposition. He

doesn’t see the importance of public health in our economic recovery. He

said that several times and just repeated it again here this morning. If

he doesn’t understand that, then I guess we have to go back to first

principles.

I’ll articulate that we immediately put in place commercial

property tax cuts, 25 percent across the board. All business taxes have

been deferred to take pressure off businesses, for the liquidity issues

that were being raised by the task force at that time.

We boosted disability income assistance rates. We put critical

funding into child care spaces. Again, something that I’m hopeful that

the opposition will now get behind. I think one of the positive elements

of the pandemic is that we now understand very, very well that child

care is fundamental to our economic well-being, and we’re going to

continue to make critical investments in that area.

We’ve been working with WorkSafe to ensure that public health

officials and WorkSafe are putting in place measures so that businesses

could open up safely — again, advice we got from the Economic Recovery

Task Force. They understood that customers would not go into businesses

if they didn’t believe they were going to be physically safe. If their

health was not being protected, they were not going to go. Health and

the economy are inextricably bound together.

We did a whole bunch of other things right off the bat. For the

hospitality sector, for example, we fast-tracked a process to expand

patios and to allow restaurants to purchase alcohol at wholesale

processes. And for those that were providing takeout food only, also to

allow off-sales, again, to stimulate more activity there.

And $10 million for labour stabilization in the agriculture sector

— critically important — for the temporary foreign worker program, which

we overdepend on, I’m afraid, in our agriculture sector. Again,

something that most British Columbians would have been unaware of. When

we had record low unemployment, it was imperative to keep our

agriculture sector going. We depend on temporary foreign

workers.

We did not want to put at risk people in communities. So we put in

place a program, unlike any other jurisdiction in Canada, although this

is a federal program, that we would quarantine temporary foreign workers

when they came into the country to protect them, the farms that they

were going to and, most importantly, the communities that they would be

operating in. We have a very, very commendable record in that regard.

That was a commitment that we made to the agriculture sector, and it’s

working.

[10:50 a.m.]

Similarly, the $3.5 billion in deferrals, in grants, in direct

contributions to individuals were designed to keep the economic activity

going in British Columbia. We’ve been singularly successful in that,

compared to other jurisdictions.

The member raised a number of dates. The Saskatchewan date that he

used was the date that they announced their restart plan. They didn’t

announce their economic recovery plan. They announced their restart

plan, as we did back in May. We have been working — the Minister of

Finance, the executive council — diligently over the past number of

weeks to look at the work that has been done by not just the members of

the Economic Recovery Task Force but sector by sector, whether it be

tourism, whether it be hospitality, whether it be forestry, mining or

tech.

We’ve been looking at those contributions that were made outside

of the Economic Recovery Task Force, and we’re putting in place what is

a pretty exciting plan that will be made known in the days and weeks

ahead as we go into the fall so that British Columbians can have comfort

that, first of all, we went to bat to get resources for public transit

and B.C. Ferries. We went to bat to make sure that we had a national

sick pay program. We also worked with the federal government to make

sure that federal dollars were able to be deployed in British Columbia

so that our restart would be safe and we could focus on the things that

matter to British Columbians.

I’m particularly proud of the work we’ve done, hon. Member. I

appreciate that in a combative, partisan environment, you’re going to

disagree with me, but most British Columbians want their government to

focus on their needs, not to focus on partisanship.

A. Wilkinson: Well, the Premier in his opening remarks said that he would

provide his best, most comprehensive answer. The question is very

simple: when would the plan be released? Clearly the answer is, once

again: “I don’t know.”

Interjections.

The Chair: Members.

A. Wilkinson: The response from the Premier generates some levity because it’s

so absurd. The provinces with a population of 8 million in Quebec, 15

million in Ontario, 4 million in Alberta have all put out their plans

six weeks or more ago. This Premier is stalled.

Let’s go to the interim plan from the B.C. Business Council

released in lieu of a real plan from the Premier. Page 6: “Until

employment has fully rebounded, governments should be looking at all of

their policies and programs through the lens of job creation, investment

attraction. This must be the top priority of elected officials at every

level of government.” Something this opposition caucus firmly agrees

with.

Page 8: “We believe the most pressing task for policymakers is to

support job restoration and employment growth. This will be key to

engineering a broader economic recovery.” I certainly hope we agree on

that. Page 9: “Complex, outdated, delay-prone and increasingly costly

government regulatory systems affecting large segments of the B.C.

economy. This concern extends to municipal and regional governments as

well as the province.”

Next point: “Uncompetitive taxes that deter investment, making it

hard to attract and retain talented people and discouraging the

entrepreneurial activity that is critical to an innovation-driven

economy.” Further on page 9: “In the last decade, B.C. has become a

high-cost jurisdiction for many important industry sectors, including

some that employ large numbers of people, drive innovation and supply

most of the experts that help to pay the province’s bills.”

Given that this is the interim report filling the void created by

the Premier’s lack of any productivity on this, can the Premier accept

those principles as the basis for a report, or is he rejecting the input

from a key member of his PERT team?

Hon. J. Horgan: I thank the member for reading me some quotes. I’ll read some

quotes as well.

Anita Huberman, CEO of the Surrey Board of Trade: “B.C. is

well-positioned fiscally and economically to move through the

pandemic.”

Craig Alexander, chief economist for Deloitte: “The B.C. economy

will be the outperformer, posting the mildest downturn and returning to

pre-COVID levels the quickest. A lot of this has to do with the success

that B.C. has had in bending the curve.” Again, connecting to health

care.

TD Bank has said: “B.C.’s fiscal position remains the envy of

other provinces.”

Martin Thibodeau, regional president of RBC, the Royal Bank, said:

“The B.C. economy is reopening step by step. I think it’s prudent, it’s

responsible, and it’s working.”

[10:55 a.m.]

A. Wilkinson: There comes a point where we have to conclude that the Premier has

no intention of answering any of these questions in the best and most

comprehensive manner he can, as he promised. It’s clear from the

unemployment numbers that he didn’t know the answer. From the date of

the release of his intended report, he doesn’t have an

answer.

I’ll put to him a few propositions again from the B.C. Business

Council and see if he’s prepared to agree to their proposals, since he

doesn’t have any of his own: (1) short-term reduction of provincial

sales tax, (2) extend tax remittance deferrals for businesses

significantly affected by the pandemic to the end of 2020, (3) introduce

the Nexus regulatory approval system for qualified operators and

(4) address uncompetitive personal taxes.

Is the Premier prepared to accept those principles as part of his

eventual report some day in the future in the face of 28 percent

unemployment?

Hon. J. Horgan: Well, firstly, I don’t know where the member opposite gets his 28

percent unemployment rate. One minute he’s quoting StatsCan as

verifiable, and now he’s creating a number that no one has ever heard of

but him. The unemployment rate in British Columbia is not 28

percent.

I was grateful to receive the report from the B.C. Business

Council. We have done comprehensive consultation with British

Columbians. Again, we were criticized by the opposition for asking

British Columbians where they felt we should go as a

government.

Again, part and parcel of how I’ve approached the role I’m in

right now that I have the privilege of holding is that I want to hear

from people. I want to hear from the Business Council and the Federation

of Labour. I want to hear from not-for-profits. I want to hear from

Indigenous communities. I want to hear from regular British Columbians.

And that’s exactly what we’re doing.

The recovery plan that the Minister of Finance is working on will

be ready in the days and weeks ahead. I know that will excite the member

opposite. It’s coming, and it’s a result of the hard work of all British

Columbians. In fact, there have been suggestions from the opposition

that may well be incorporated in the final product. We’ll just have to

wait and see.

I do want to say, though, in terms of tax competitiveness, since

the last budget that the opposition tabled, a family with two kids with

a $100,000 family income is seeing a net reduction of 22 percent in

their personal taxes. If you make $80,000, you’re seeing a 42 percent

reduction in your personal taxes. With $60,000, you’re seeing a 60

percent reduction.

Starting in two months’ time, families will be able to see $2,600

per family for child opportunity benefits that were cancelled and now

have been reinstated by this government. Medical service premiums used

to exist. In fact, they were doubled by the opposition when they were in

government. Now they are eliminated, and that means $1,800 per family in

pockets. If you cross a bridge in the Lower Mainland, you don’t have to

pay for the privilege of doing that.

[11:00 a.m.]

There’s a whole host of issues that we’ve been working on before

the pandemic and during the pandemic and that we will continue to work

on in the time ahead, focusing on making life more affordable for

British Columbians. That’s our objective. That’s our priority. That’s

what we’re going to continue to do.

A. Wilkinson: Rather than rehashing a stump speech from 2019, perhaps it would

be helpful if the Premier recognized what has happened in the last six

months. Let’s go to page 5 of the B.C. Business Council report and focus

on those most vulnerable to this economic downturn.

[S. Gibson in the chair.]

Alarmingly, the jobless rate amongst young people is now a

record-high 29 percent. Women and lower-income workers have been hit

particularly hard by the job losses and business closures that’ve

occurred since early 2020. It’s widely understood from StatsCan that the

most vulnerable group of employees in this downturn are women, often

women of racialized origin who work in enterprises of less than 20.

Their jobs have been wiped out.

There’s a great deal of expectation. People are waiting for

guidance, for leadership. What we’ve seen this morning is the Premier is

still trying to figure out what the unemployment rate is. The question

then arises…. One of most vulnerable sectors in our economy is

tourism.

It’s now been widely reported that British Columbians spend about

30 percent of what the average international tourist spends per day in

British Columbia. It’s been widely reported that 130,000 people in the

tourism sector are at risk of losing their jobs.

I must say that when I went past the Premier’s office the other

day, I was struck when I picked a poster up from an individual standing

there from UNITE HERE Local 40 saying that 50,000 hotel workers are out

of work.

The first question to deal with tourism is the obvious one. Why

was the tourism sector, the Tourism Industry Association of British

Columbia, ignored and left out of the Premier’s economic recovery

team?

Hon. J. Horgan: Again, just for the edification of the Leader of the Opposition,

B.C.’s unemployment rate in July was 11.1 percent, not 28 percent — 11.1

percent. There you go.

With respect to the tourism sector, I’m a born-and-raised

Vancouver Islander. Living in Victoria growing up, I worked on the

Coho ferry, which has been idle for the past five months.

We’ve not heard the horn of the Coho leaving the Inner Harbour

for five months.

Before that, the Coho had made every single sailing but

one over a 60-year period — every sailing but one. It was as reliable as

anything that you could imagine, yet here we are. The Coho does

not sail. Cruise ships are not stopping here, because British Columbians

said loudly and clearly that we want to protect British Columbians from

the spread of COVID-19.

These were decisions that were made collectively — that we wanted

to keep our borders closed, wanted to ensure that we were protecting

those people so close to us, our seniors and our children and everyone

in between.

[11:05 a.m.]

What have we done instead to focus on trying to stimulate activity

in the tourism sector? The Minister of Tourism has been meeting

regularly with stakeholders, as have I, talking to companies, talking to

umbrella groups for companies, trying to find a way to make sure that we

can meet their needs in our recovery plan. They’ve made a submission,

the Tourism Industry Association of B.C., seeking somewhere in the

neighbourhood of $680 million. We’re looking at that very closely and

have been for the past number of months.

We’re encouraging British Columbians to travel this summer on

their summer vacations to places throughout British Columbia. I was

criticized for mentioning Barkerville too much by one of the media, but

it’s an outstanding place, right in the heart of British Columbia. I

encourage people to travel through the Cariboo, into Barkerville, and

spend some time in northern British Columbia, spend some of your

discretionary dollars there.

Tourism is the most significantly affected industry because we

closed our borders, which is something that British Columbians agreed on

and we’re committed to, and we are continuing to do that until at least

the 21st of September.

A. Wilkinson: Well, the pattern is clear by now. The Premier has no intention of

answering any questions.

The question was: why was the Tourism Industry Association of

British Columbia not included in his recovery task force? The question

was ignored. The unemployment point the Premier raises…. He quotes the

figure of 11.1 percent of unemployment in July, which was based on

295,300 people being unemployed, which is obviously connected to the

question of, then, why on earth did he pay out to 668,000 people if less

than half of them were actually unemployed.

We will move on to a few quotes from the tourism industry. The

story in the Globe and Mail last Saturday. The headline:

“Tourism Providers Struggle to Stay Afloat.” The story: “Many in this

industry, which is the third-biggest economic generator in B.C., say a

lack of government support tailored to their often seasonal business is

devastating. While many in B.C. may never use or even know about these

tourism services, specialty operators say they add hundreds of millions

of dollars to the province’s tax revenue and often key employers that

help keep smaller B.C. communities thriving.”

Alasdair Douglas is one such operator of Rockwood Adventures. He

says: “All these seasonal businesses are ineligible for the Canada

emergency wage subsidy, and this is crippling right now for a lot of

tourism businesses trying to restart and focus on the local and domestic

markets….” His season is gone. No revenue this year.

A further quote from Walt Judas, chief executive officer of what

I’ll call TIABC. He said the “problem with the support program is one of

the key issues his group is pushing. The other, bigger one is a request

to the province for $680 million to help prevent widespread collapse

during the lengthy time it will take the industry to fully

recover.”

These are generally mom-and-pop operations. They depend on ten

weeks of revenue in the summer. Possibly, they operate in the winter,

but that’s often a completely separate market. The Province —

from the operator of the Listel Hotel in Vancouver: “There is no

business coming into Vancouver. There is nothing. We’re all struggling.

It’s horrible.” July 22, 2020.

Ian MacPhee from the Prince of Whales boats that we see here in

the harbour every day: “How do we survive a winter without the summer’s

income?” From the Province , June 11, 2020. The province has

been alluding to a bailout for tourism. It would be nice to know what it

is. Too little, too late means bankruptcy, Premier.

Let’s go to the report provided by the TIABC and what their

expectations are. On page 3, job losses to date: 114,524. On page 4: “In

2018, the tourism industry involved over 19,300 businesses, generated

more than $8.3 billion in provincial GDP from $20.5 billion in direct

visitor spending and created employment…for more than 300,000 people in

every community of the province.”

On page 6: “These employment losses in B.C. far exceed the

national average, including B.C.’s tourism and hospitality sector, which

is enduring even more severe impacts than for Canada overall.

Accordingly, federal assistance programs structured to deal with

‘average’ impacts across the country are insufficient to address the

higher level impacts being experienced in British Columbia.”

Also on page 6: “These businesses require immediate support and

investments to remain solvent, while critical core markets have been

erased.”

[11:10 a.m.]

We look at page 10. Humboldt, Saskatchewan, with a tourism

industry about a tenth of the size of British Columbia, has structured

financial relief programs to provide emergency short-term liquidity

through non-repayable grants up to 15 percent of gross operating

revenue.

The governments of Quebec, Prince Edward Island and the Northwest

Territories have also recognized the massive and unique impact of COVID

on tourism and developed specific tourism-focused programs to increase

liquidity in businesses.

Yet from this government, we have seen that they weren’t even

invited to the table, completely ignored as the season escapes them,

revenue collapses, mass layoffs, and not even a phone call from the

government of British Columbia. So 45 different organizations put

together the TIABC report, which was sent to the Premier. The Premier

didn’t have the courtesy of including them in his economic recovery

team.

Why not, Premier?

Hon. J. Horgan: Firstly, the Leader of the Opposition alleges not even a phone

call. The Minister of Tourism and I have regularly been in contact with

the sector — regularly in contact. We encouraged them to send us their

views. They’ve done that. He read some components of that report that we

asked for. It will be part and parcel of our recovery plan in the days

and weeks ahead. The notion that we did not contact the tourism industry

is patently false. He knows it, and he should withdraw it.

Now, with respect to the Economic Recovery Task Force, the state

of California created, at about the same time we did, an economic

recovery task force that had 125 different organizations on it. You know

how long it takes to go through 125 people in a Zoom call, Member? A

long, long time.

When we put together the task force, it was with a specific

purpose. We wanted real-time information from the economy across the

province.

We asked the B.C. Business Council, the largest employers in the

province — the biggest companies represented by that organization — and

the B.C. chambers of commerce, which have, among their members, dozens

and dozens of tourism operators at the table through that umbrella

group. We asked Creative B.C. to be there, again, talking about things

like conventions and talking about things like festivals, which have

both a creative and a tourism component. We had a whole host of

information coming from the tourist sector and individual calls that I

made myself as well as those by the minister.

To suggest, as the member just did, that there was not even a

phone call is patently false, and he should have the courage to stand up

and say he’s wrong.

A. Wilkinson: Well, the Premier likes to talk about process and inputs. Let’s

talk about results. The Premier has been alluding to a bailout for

tourism — it’d be nice to know what that is — dated June 11, 2020.

That’s two months ago. These people are going to be bankrupt in

September.

We’ll talk momentarily about tax deferrals and the effect that

will have at the end of September. But let’s go to a more urgent

problem, which is that the federal government announced yesterday that

CERB will end in a scant 17 days. We think of those tourism operators

hanging on by their fingernails, wondering if they can make it through

to next year. They put together a constructive, courteous proposal to

the Premier’s office, and they aren’t even invited to the

table.

Let’s get specific. The TIABC proposal is for a working capital

recovery grant of $475 million, support for adaptation costs of $190

million and support for developing resilient B.C.-focused supply chains.

Will any of those be part of the Premier’s $1.5 billion economic

recovery plan or not?

[11:15 a.m.]

Hon. J. Horgan: Certainly the tourism industry has been hardest hit by the

pandemic. I’ve touched upon some of the reasons why. Closing the borders

means millions of people who would have come through our ports, through

our airports, through our border crossings, have not done so. That’s

going to have a profound impact.

Tourism companies have been able to access the programs that were

put in place at the front end. They’ve been, of course, very much part

of our discussions — the minister having over 75 engagements with the

sector over the past number of months, taking the information that the

member is reading from as part of their submission. We’ll be

incorporating many of those elements in the pieces that we bring forward

in the days and weeks ahead.

I think it’s also important to recognize that in order for this to

work, British Columbians have to do their part as well — those people

who are going to be travelling, have been travelling in July and, of

course, those that have holidays ahead of them — to do what they can to

spend a few dollars in communities that desperately need to see those

dollars coming through. Make that booking. Go to that place you’ve

always wanted to go to. Now is the time to do that. That’s what we’ve

been appealing to people to do. We’ve put resources into marketing for

Destination B.C. to do just that.

I want to say…. The member has been reading quotes. I’ll read from

Walt Judas, the CEO of the Tourism Industry Association of B.C., who

said: “I wish to express my sincere thanks for your leadership” — this

is in respect to the Minister of Tourism — “and support for B.C.’s

tourism industry as we continue to deal with the devastating impacts of

COVID-19. Thank you again for championing the needs of tourism workers,

businesses and communities throughout British Columbia.”

It is a complex problem. If you don’t have people coming, which

historically have come, to stimulate that economic activity, we have a

problem. The member will acknowledge that.

We have received the submission. We have been engaging for months

with the tourism sector — myself as well, of course, as the minister

responsible and the Minister of Finance. We will have a plan coming out

just before the beginning of the school year, so that we can

have….

Interjection.

[11:20 a.m.]

Hon. J. Horgan: That’s the best heckle of the year. You won the heckle right

there, Member.

In the days and weeks ahead.

A. Wilkinson: Well, sadly, the thousands of tourism operators around the

province can take no comfort from hearing the Premier say he’s

encouraging British Columbians to travel, because 750,000 of them are

living off CERB, plus the 90,000 students who are living on the federal

grant.

There aren’t an awful lot of people out there who are feeling like

spending the way German, Japanese or Australian tourists do. They don’t

have the capacity. So the tourism industry is looking for some

government assistance, a little more than the Premier’s marketing pitch

to British Columbians, which he just gave.

I’ll ask once again: can the tourism industry expect to be part of

the Premier’s $1.5 billion plan? And more specifically, will there be

money for a working capital recovery grant, support for adaptation costs

and support for delivering resilient B.C.-focused supply chains? It’s a

simple question. They need to know the answer immediately.

Hon. J. Horgan: As I’ve said from the beginning, we did receive a substantive

submission from the sector. We have been in contact and discussions with

the sector throughout the pandemic. As I’ve said, the plan will be

available in early September. We’re taking every submission seriously,

every sector seriously, every worker we’re focusing on.

Again, I know that not that long ago, all members of this House

were unanimous in our approach to making sure that we put aside

partisanship and focused on the needs of British Columbians.

A. Wilkinson: That, yet again, tells the sector absolutely nothing of any use or

value.

I’m going to take the Premier to a meeting he apparently went to

on April 21 of this year with Dogwood and a few other organizations.

They put out a press release the next day. Under the header, it says:

“$1.5 billion in stimulus money.”

I’ll read it. “Finance Minister Carole James and Environment

Minister George Heyman also joined the meeting. James confirmed that the

government has so far allocated $1.5 billion for economic recovery under

its COVID-19 action plan” — the item that we’ve been waiting for now for

five months. “The Premier said he shared those goals. When asked what

kind of recovery projects he had in mind” — wait for it — “Horgan

mentioned the Pattullo Bridge…public transit expansion in the Lower

Mainland and flood protection along the Fraser River.”

I might note that all of those massive expenditures are in area

code 604. There is nothing in what the Premier cited to Dogwood for

Vancouver Island or anywhere in the Interior.

We might also note that the Pattullo project alone is a $1.3

billion project, inflated because of the Premier’s choices. Public

transit expansion in the Lower Mainland — the Broadway line is going to

apparently be $3 billion alone. And diking along the Fraser River is a

massive expense.

To the people in the tourism industry, given that apparent

interest in supporting existing infrastructure programs that are

themselves in the range of more than $5 billion out of a $1.5 billion

recovery fund, will there be anything left at all for the tourism

industry?

Hon. J. Horgan: The capital projects that the member just identified are not part

of the economic recovery plan. They’re part of the annual

budget.

A. Wilkinson: Can we surmise from that, Premier — it’s a very simple question —

that Dogwood was wrong? Correct?

Hon. J. Horgan: I don’t have access to the press release that he’s referring to. I

can’t confirm or deny the contents of it. I can tell you that the items

that he identified are not part of the $1.5 billion, save and except

that when we were talking at that time about $1.5 billion, we didn’t

know that we had secured over $1 billion from the federal government for

municipalities, transit and B.C. Ferries, which we were going to

match.

[11:25 a.m.]

Again, those projects are not part of the plan. That’s what I’ll

say. I won’t dispute the contents of the document, because I haven’t

seen it.

A. Wilkinson: It’s come up in this exchange about deferral of taxes. We know

that the Finance Minister has said that the employer health tax, sales

tax, fuel tax, carbon tax, tobacco tax will all be deferred until

September 30. That’s for the period of April, May, June, July, August,

September — six months. Half of the year’s revenue in those items has

been deferred. Those items add up to $13.6 billion a year. So there’s a

$6.8 billion tax bill due on September 30.

The obvious question arises: who will be able to actually pay it?

CERB is ending. The tourism industry is in disarray. Restaurants are

empty. Hotels are empty. What will the Premier and the Finance Minister

do on September 30, when thousands upon thousands of businesses say: “We

can’t pay”? Will they petition them into bankruptcy? Or will they

relieve them of the tax burden or defer further?

Hon. J. Horgan: As I’ve said, I believe, earlier, the CERB is rolling into EI, so

it’s not a suspension of federal participation and assistance in that

regard. It’s just going to take a different form or go back to a more

traditional form.

With respect to those deferred taxes that were collected by

companies, that’s moneys that they would have collected to be remitted

to the province. We fully intend to be as flexible as we can be with

those companies and those businesses as the months go by, again keeping

in mind that the dollars, in many instances, that were collected by

those companies were not supposed to be spent. But liquidity was a

significant issue. We heard that repeatedly. That’s why we brought

forward the deferral programs.

A. Wilkinson: Of course, liquidity assumes that you have some cash, and as I’ve

said, thousands upon thousands of businesses in British Columbia have no

cash. Some of them took in no cash at all, but they still have tax

liabilities.

The Premier said he’ll be flexible. To the few thousand

accountants and comptrollers around the province, that comes as a

titillating bit of bait, but little comfort. Perhaps the Premier can

elaborate what flexibility means.

Does it mean that taxes can be deferred to the end of the year, as

the B.C. Business Council suggested — and it’s part of his economic

recovery team? Does it mean that some taxes will be written off, because

they simply are insolvent otherwise? Does it mean that as a creditor,

the province of British Columbia is prepared to write off those bills if

the organization goes into a reorganization or receivership?

[11:30 a.m.]

Hon. J. Horgan: Well, the whole range of issues that the Leader of the Opposition

just articulated are part of the process. They’re in the mix. We’ve been

working with those companies, with those ideas, and it’ll be part and

parcel of our recovery plan in September.

A. Wilkinson: Should those businesses that are facing insolvency write to the

Finance Ministry today and give them notice that they will not be able

to pay their taxes and, thereby, look for some flexibility?

Hon. J. Horgan: Well, again, I’ll just repeat the last answer. People have been

bringing these ideas forward. The Leader of the Opposition has raised

those, as well as others. They’re in the mix. That’s part of the

proposal that we’re going to be announcing at the beginning of

September.

A. Wilkinson: The Business Council report that I read out earlier said that one

of the British Columbia’s problems going forward is: “Inefficient and

uncompetitive taxes that deter investment make it hard to attract and

retain talented people and discourage the entrepreneurial activity that

is critical to an innovation-driven economy.” British Columbia is a

high-cost jurisdiction with high taxes.

Now, looking at the competitiveness of British Columbia’s taxes

across the country, we have amongst the highest income tax rates in the

country. Will the Premier state today he’s prepared to look at income

tax reductions to give people a break, stimulate the economy and make

British Columbia competitive once again? Or is he ruling that

out?

Hon. J. Horgan: Well, tax measures are just one element of competitiveness, as the

member knows. We do have the second-lowest small business tax rate in

the country. Our corporate tax rates, save and except for the recent

change by the government of Alberta, are competitive.

We’re competitive by investing in child care. We’re competitive by

having world-class post-secondary institutions. We’re competitive by

seeing a tech sector — a dynamic, innovative sector that has continued

to grow — that has been leading the country in many, many regards and

that is seeing investment coming from abroad to take advantage of our

connections to Washington state, the Silicon Valley and the Cascadia

Corridor. Our strategic location in terms of trade, in terms of

investment, is part and parcel of our competitiveness.

I appreciate that the member will want to come back and talk more

about taxes. The tax policy of the government is set by the Ministry of

Finance. We work closely on these issues. We’ve looked at the

applications that have come forward, and we’ll have more to say when the

program comes out in September.

A. Wilkinson: We’ll take that as a faint hope clause that there might be some

tax changes in September, but the Premier seems to be enamoured with the

idea of high taxes as somehow making British Columbia an attractive

place to live and work. The obvious concern is that the personal income

tax rate in the state of Washington is zero. So it makes it very

difficult to run an enterprise on this border, because talent wants to

work in Washington state with the comparable way of life and lower

taxes.

Now, the Premier mentioned corporate taxes. Let’s go to the

Finance Minister’s statement in Hansard , October 18, 2017, that

we’re increasing the corporate tax “to match the other western

provinces, to keep us competitive with Alberta, Saskatchewan and

Manitoba.” I’m not sure that keeps us competitive when we raise taxes to

match theirs, but perhaps the mirror-image scenario does apply. Alberta

has cut its corporate tax from 12 percent to 8 percent and has no

employer health tax, which is another 2 percent on top of

that.

[11:35 a.m.]

Will the Premier, as part of his economic recovery program,

consider making British Columbia competitive with Alberta in terms of

corporate taxation?

Hon. J. Horgan: Well, as I said to answer the last question, tax rates are only

one element of competitiveness. Individuals and investors look at a

whole host of other issues. Our public health care system, of course, is

one. When we’re comparing to Washington state, that’s a superior

advantage to us here in British Columbia.

We have the lowest personal tax rate for individuals making up to

$140,000. That certainly makes us competitive if you’re trying to

recruit and retain workers in British Columbia: the advantages, not just

of public health care, but of significant investments in child care and

post-secondary institutions. Now, as we come out of the pandemic, there

are programs and efforts by the Minister of Health to ensure that our

long-term and extended care facilities have appropriately staffed

resources to meet the needs of our elders.

All of those are issues that lend themselves to making British

Columbia a desirable place to work and a desirable place to invest. I’m

confident, as we come through the pandemic, that we’ll continue to see a

lot of Canadians and a lot of international investors looking at British

Columbia as the place that they want to be.

A. Wilkinson: Once again, we hear a stump speech for 2019, rather than a way to

address the crisis we’re in — a truly unprecedented crisis, with

hundreds of thousands of people unemployed — and we hear the Premier

being completely inflexible on competitiveness.

Let’s talk about some more granular issues. Workers compensation.

The Premier pushed through Bill 23, over the objections of the business

community. He received a letter from 21 business organizations objecting

to the legislation and proceeded anyway. This is in contrast to his

earlier reversal on the issue of compulsory severance payments. After

forcing it through with the Labour Minister, a week later the Premier

backed down, realizing that this would have been ruinous for thousands

upon thousands of small businesses.

At a more granular level, we sent some letters to the Premier — 15

in total, 65 ideas. Two of them were adopted immediately. Wholesale

pricing of liquor, patios, home delivery of alcohol by restaurants. Some

others were ignored.

One of them was to use at least part of the accumulated WorkSafe

surplus, in the billions, to support the cost of PPE. WorkSafe claims

dropped dramatically in the last six months because so many fewer people

are working. Their premiums have already been paid. They’re sitting in a

pile of money at WorkSafeBC. So we suggested something as simple as

allowing the cost of personal protective equipment to be paid for by

WCB, up to 30 percent of the premium for an employer.

Is that the sort of granular idea the Premier is prepared to

entertain, or is he rejecting any input from the opposition?

Hon. J. Horgan: I heard the Leader of the Opposition taking credit for ideas that

he offered and that we implemented. Now he’s criticizing for not

implementing ideas that are still part and parcel of our discussion with

respect to a restart.

Just to be straightforward and candid with the member, we took the

input from the official opposition. We put it into the mix with a range

of other issues, in the same way we’ve done with every sector and with

individuals across British Columbia. In early September, that plan will

be revealed. It will be putting $2½ billion back into the economy and

continuing to build B.C. to get back better than we were before the

pandemic.

[11:40 a.m.]

A. Wilkinson: Here’s another opportunity for the Premier. He liked our idea

about wholesale liquor pricing. He liked our idea about larger patio

spaces with the same liquor licences.

Would he like the idea of saying that the provincial sales tax due

on September 30 should just be written off?

Hon. J. Horgan: As I said in answer to the last question, all of the ideas that

we’ve received, even those from the good burghers on the other side, are

part and parcel of our consultation process. We’ve been vetting all of

this information through cabinet, and it will be made available in early

September.

A. Wilkinson: Another one of our ideas was to double the tax deduction for

business-related meals, take it back to where it used to be. Get people

into restaurants, reduce costs. Is that the sort of idea the Premier is

prepared to entertain, or is he going to summarily dismiss it because it

came from us?

Hon. J. Horgan: I’ve got to pause and say that it’s the contortions of the Leader

of the Opposition to say: “Why won’t you take us seriously?” When we do

take them seriously, it’s: “You should take us more

seriously.”

We take the ideas that we get from anywhere, from everyone, and

we’re trying to weave together a plan that lifts up businesses, that

lifts up individuals, that supports communities. If they come from the

official opposition, if they come from Mars, I don’t care. It’s not

about credit. It’s about doing what’s right for British

Columbians.

We’ve taken the information provided by members opposite. We’ve

taken information from the Green Party caucus. We’ve taken information

from people across British Columbia. We’ll continue to do

that.

A. Wilkinson: We might note, Premier, that you’ve done absolutely nothing with

it.

The Business Council had to fill the void on July 29 with their

own report full of proposals and ideas, as the Premier dithers and

businesses go into insolvency. The bailiffs are at the door. They’re

taking the equipment out of the restaurant. The creditors are shutting

down the hotel. The car dealership’s in big trouble. And the Premier

dithers.

Let’s talk about another topic — strata councils, strata

insurance. It came as a surprise to many of us to find out that of the

2½ million people living in the Lower Mainland, 1½ million live in

strata buildings. Their strata premiums have exploded.

We had a telephone town hall and heard a number of stories. Bob

and Susan in Kelowna. Their premium went from $84,000 to $387,000, water

deductible went from $15,000 to $150,000, and monthly strata fees

increased $200 a month. To quote them: “We are pensioners, and we’ll

find it very difficult to pay this.”

Jack in Coquitlam. Premium went from $85,000 to $253,000. Water

deductible, again, went from $15,000 to $150,000. Mostly seniors in this

building. To quote him: “How am I supposed to enjoy retirement without

money?”

Wendy in Delta. Premium went up from $166,000 to $487,000 — a 200

percent increase.

We actually talked to a couple in Penticton who live in a bare

land strata, where they saw an 1,100 percent increase in their premium,

an 11-fold increase. They say that some of the members of their strata

will simply have to sell, and it’s unsaleable without having paid the

insurance, and who would buy into a property with an uncontrolled

insurance premium that could go up again?

So what can be done? Well, this government, sadly, introduced a

piece of legislation that did absolutely nothing. It made no difference

whatsoever to the premiums paid. It made no difference to the security

of tenure of these people living in strata housing. It was, in short, a

complete flop. We suggested many things, because….

The Finance Minister recognizes the problem. She has said that

she’ll take further action if needed. But this is the end of the

legislative session — today. No further legislation was tabled. So the

question becomes…. There is no sign of relief in sight. The most obvious

solution is for the Premier to tell the Finance Minister….

[11:45 a.m.]

We collect, the government of British Columbia collects, a 4.4

percent tax on massively increased insurance premiums. This is a

windfall to government at the expense of these strata owners. They know

that they’re paying 4.4 percent of a hugely increased premium directly

to the NDP government. They resent it.

Will the Premier take action on this pressing matter and say that

the 4.4 percent tax will be capped at what it was last year or suspend

it all together?

Hon. J. Horgan: I just want to say at the outset, as we explore this issue, how

much sympathy I have for those families and homeowners that are captured

in this — what is clearly a private sector failure. This is not a

government program. This is not a government initiative. This is the

private sector imposing these costs on individuals and on

stratas.

With respect to the particular question around the tax issue, the

tax is not paid directly by the strata councils or by the strata

members. It’s paid by the insurance companies. There’s no guarantee that

they’re going to pass that back on to….

Interjections.

Hon. J. Horgan: I’m sorry. I didn’t realize he had more questions. I’ll sit and

wait for them.

A. Wilkinson: The Premier has just demonstrated his profound naivety about

corporate commercial matters when he thinks that a 4.4 percent tax

applied to the insurers is not passed on to the insured. Who on earth

does he think pays the tax, Santa Claus? So the Premier persists in this

naive, sheltered view that somehow a windfall tax on insured condo

owners is a good thing. This is breathtaking — that we can face this

level of naivety from the chair of the executive council of the

government of British Columbia.

Let’s take another angle on this. Perhaps the Premier will rise to

this occasion. In this House, a month ago, my colleague to my left gave

a speech suggesting that the necessary legislative framework be created

for condominium owners to prepare themselves to go into the cooperative

mode of insurance as has been used in credit unions all across the

prairies in the 1930s and after World War II. British Columbia has by

far the most fully developed credit union system in Canada for the same

reasons. This is the concept of taking care of each other, in the spirit

of the party opposite.

This would be the concept of self-insurance, captive insurance and

mutual insurance. It is not permissible under British Columbia law. This

was raised in time for this government to act this summer, and

absolutely nothing has been done.

Will the Premier direct his staff and the Finance Minister to act

promptly to make it possible for condominiums, strata councils, to form

mutual insurance, to form captive insurers and to

self-insure?

Hon. J. Horgan: Well, it is permissible currently. We’ve asked the B.C. Financial

Services Authority to review the proposal. We think it’s a good one. We

think it’s an area where we can fix a private sector market failure and

protect British Columbians right across the board.

[11:50 a.m.]

Again, I want to…. I do take with comfort, oftentimes, the

comments from the member for Kamloops–South Thompson. He knows the quote

I’m going to read. I do so only because it’s the common sense that I

think most British Columbians have on issues like this where you’ve got

a vexing problem that has been created outside of our jurisdiction, not

as a result of any policies, not as a result of any decisions we’ve

made. The member for Kamloops–South Thompson, referring to this issue,

said that there are no silver bullets and that it’s not going to solve

the problem in and of itself.

These are complex issues. We have benefited from the insights of

members on the other side on this question. Again, I would have been

delighted to talk about the tax piece with the member, but he already

decided what my answer was. I’ll let him just keep that in his heart,

and we’ll move on from there.

A. Wilkinson: Rather than keeping things in our hearts, I’d rather get some

answers.

Interjection.

A. Wilkinson: The Premier says I don’t really want an answer — be honest with

myself. I’ve never had any trouble being honest with myself in this

room. I think the Premier needs to look in the mirror when he blurts out

a remark like that, given that he’s been evasive the whole morning and

reluctant to answer anything of any substance.

We have to get this in focus. We are in the middle of the biggest

economic meltdown in British Columbia’s history. We have unemployment

numbers that we can dispute but are in the half-million range. We have

668,000 people in British Columbia collecting a cheque from the federal

government to keep themselves in groceries. That ends on August 31. We

have 90,000 students living on a $1,250 cheque from the federal

government.

In that context, British Columbians are very keen to see

leadership from the provincial government. We’ve seen the promise of a

recovery plan five months ago. We’ve watched the rest of Canada announce

their recovery plans. Nothing has happened in this room with this

government — nothing.

We’ve seen the Premier’s economic recovery team put together March

23 with great fanfare. Then they had to take the extraordinary step of

expressing their profound dissatisfaction at the lack of action on the

part of this government and the fact that this government seems to be

ignoring their input, even though they did it in the best, bona fide

way, to the extent that the business council had to put out its own

report on July 29 to fill the void from the complete lack of leadership

from this government.

We face ourselves now thinking: where is this going? CERB ends,

and $6.9 billion in taxes are due on September 30. School is going back

some day in September. There’s a demonstration this morning in front of

the Health Minister’s office from parents who say they’re not prepared

to send their children back to school under the circumstances described

by the Premier so far.

We’re seeing, sadly, a profound lack of guidance from the

provincial government. We’ll go over, this afternoon, a number of other

issues where the provincial government has been lacking, completely

empty in this space, leaving British Columbians adrift. We’ll touch upon

one more before the lunch break.

All parties in this House voted last November in favour of the

bill related to UNDRIP, the United Nations declaration on the rights of

Indigenous people. In this legislative session, we saw the disappointing

and frustrating efforts of this government to push through Bill 17,

dealing with energy reforms that meant that British Columbia would no

longer be self-sufficient energy, that British Columbia would be open to

purchase nuclear and coal-fired power from the United States and that

British Columbia and its government would terminate the opportunities

for First Nations to benefit from independent power projects.

Not only was this a bizarre policy in a time of climate change and

energy conservation — bizarre is a polite word — but more significantly,

it was a complete and utter violation of the spirit of this Legislature

from the previous November, when Aboriginal leaders sat here in special

chairs, in regalia, to celebrate the fact that this government had

decided to engage them in consultation on everything that matters in

their world.

[11:55 a.m.]

Here are a few quotes. The

Tŝilhqot’in Nation, July 15,

“The amendment of Bill 17 proposed in June raises

alarming concerns that the NDP government has no intention of

honouring the principles of the United Nations declaration on the

rights of Indigenous people, despite proclaiming it to be a

cornerstone of its mandate….

“Bill 17 directly

threatens Tŝilhqot’in clean

energy aspirations as captured in the

Tŝilhqot’in Nation clean

energy plan…. That plan would see the

Tŝilhqot’in become not only

self-sufficient in the production of clean energy but a net

contributor to clean energy in B.C.…”

“Proceeding

with Bill 17 at this point would be a blatant betrayal of all this

government has said about its respect for and willingness to work

with First Nations. The proposed amendments have profound

implications for the economic and social well-being of Indigenous

peoples in B.C., yet absolutely no meaningful engagement took place

before this bill was brought forward.”

Just before the lunch break, Premier, is that the standard that

you’re now setting for UNDRIP consultation going forward? Will we see

more of this kind of high-handed, arrogant behaviour dismissing the

interests of Aboriginal people, in spite of your fine words last

November?

Hon. J. Horgan: I certainly recognize high-handed and arrogant when I hear

it.

With that, I will thank the member for his question, and we can

pick this up after.

I’m noting the hour, hon. Chair. I move that the committee rise,

report progress and ask leave to sit again.

Motion approved.

The committee rose at 11:56 a.m.

The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair.

Committee of Supply (Section B), having reported progress, was

granted leave to sit again.

Hon. M. Farnworth moved adjournment of the House.

Motion approved.

Mr. Speaker: This House stands adjourned until 1:30 this afternoon.

The House adjourned at 11:57 a.m.

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