Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 11 (29th Legislature, 5th Session)

29-5-11

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable Peter Fox Vol. XX No. 11 2:30 p.m., Monday, March 5th, 1973. Fifth Session, 29th Legislature. Printed by R. S. Evans - Queen's Printer for Province of Manitoba

Electoral Division Name Political Address Postal Affiliation Code ARTHUR J. Douglas Watt P.C. R eston, Man. ROM 1XO ASSINIBOIA Steve Patrick Lib. 10 Red Robin Pl., Winnipeg R3J 3L8 BI RTLE-RUSSELL Harry E. Graham P.C. Binscarth, Man. ROJ OGO BRANDON EAST Hon. Leonard S. Evans NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova BRANDON WEST Edward McGILL P.C. 2228 Princess Ave., Brandon R7B OH9 BURROWS Hon. Ben Hanuschak NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova CHARLESWOOD Arthur Moug P.C. 29 Willow Ridge Rd., Winnipeg R3R 1 L5 CHURCHILL VACANT CRESCENTWOOD Cy Gonick NDP 1 140 Grosvenor Ave., Winnipeg R3M ONS DAUPHIN Hon.

Peter Burtniak NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova ELMWOOD Hon. Russell J. Doern NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova EMERSON Gabriel Girard P.C. 25 Lamond Blvd., Winnipeg R2J 1Y1 FLIN FLON Thomas Barrow NDP Cranberry Portage, Man. ROB OHO FORT GARRY L.R. (Bud) Sherman P.C. 86 Niagara St., Winnipeg R3N OT9 FORT ROUGE Mrs. Inez Trueman P.C. 179 Oxford St., Winnipeg R3M 3H8 GIMLI John C. Gottfried NDP 44 · 3rd Ave., Gimli, Man. ROC 1BO GLADSTONE James R. Ferguson P.C. Gladstone, Man. ROJ OTO INKSTER Hon. Sidney Green, O.C. NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova KILDONAN Hon.

Peter Fox NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova LAC DU BONNET Hon. Sam Uskiw NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova LAKESIDE Harry J. Enns P.C. Woodlands, Man. ROC 3HO LA VERENDRY E Leonard A. Barkman Lib. Box 130, Steinbach, Man. ROA 2AO LOGAN William Jenkins NDP 1294 Erin St., Winnipeg R3E 2S6 MINNEDOSA- David Blake P.C. Minnedosa, Man. ROJ 1 EO MORRIS Warner H. Jorgenson P.C. Morris, Man. ROG 1KO OSBORNE Ian Turnbull NDP 284 Wildwood Pk., Winnipeg R3T OE5 PEMBINA George Henderson P.C. Manitou, Man. ROG 1GO POINT DOUGLAS Donald Malinowski NDP 361 Burrows Ave., Winnipeg R2W 1Z9 PORTAGE LA PRAIRIE Gordon E.

Johnston Lib. 506 St. George Ave., Portage la Prairie, Man. R1N OT5 RADISSON Harry Shafransky NDP 4 Maplehurst Rd., Winnipeg R2J 1W8 RHINELAND Jacob M. Froese s.c. Box 40, Winkler, Man. ROG 2XO RIEL Donald W. Craik P.C. 2 River Lane, Winnipeg R2M 3Y8 RIVER HEIGHTS Sidney Spivak, 0.C. P.C. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova ROBLIN J. Wally McKenzie P.C. Inglis, Man. ROJ OXO ROCK LAKE Henry J. Einarson P.C. Glenboro, Man. ROK OXO ROSSMERE Hon. Ed. Schreyer NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova RUPERTSLAND Jean Allard Ind. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova ST. BONIFACE Hon. Laurent L.

Desjardins NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova ST. GEORGE Bill Uruski NDP Box 580, Arborg, Man. ROC OAO ST. JAMES Hon. A.H. Mackling, O.C. NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg I R3C ova ST. JOHNS Saul Cherniack, O.C. NDP 333 St. Jo hn's Ave., Winnipeg R2W 1H2 ST. MATTHEWS Wally Johannsen NDP 418 Home St., Winnipeg R3G 1X4 ST. VITAL D.J. Walding NDP 31 Lochi nvar Ave., Winnipeg R2J 1R3 STE. ROSE A.R. (Pete) Adam NDP Ste. Rose du Lac, Man. ROL 1SO SELKIRK Hon. Howard Pawley NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova SEVEN OAKS Hon. Saul A.

Miller NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova SOUR IS Kl LLARNEY Earl McKellar P.C. Nesbitt, Man. ROK 1PO SPRINGFIELD Hon. Rene E. Toupin NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova STURGEON CREEK J. Frank Johnston P.C. 310 Overdale St., Winnipeg R3J 2G3 SWAN RIVER James H. Bilton P.C. Swan River, Man. ROL1ZO THE PAS Hon. Ron McBryde NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova THOMPSON Joseph P. Borowski Ind. NDP La Salle, Man. ROG 1BO TRANSCONA Hon. Russell Paulley NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova VIRDEN Morris McGregor P.C. Kenton, Man. ROM OZO WELLINGTON Philip M.

Petursson NDP 681 Banning St., Winnipeg R3G 2G3 WINNIPEG CENTRE J.R. (Bud) Boyce NDP 777 Winnipeg Ave., Winnipeg R3E OR5 WOLSELEY 1.H. Asper Lib. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Monday , March 5, 1973 Opening Prayer by Mr . Speaker. INTRODUC TION OF GUESTS 241 MR . SPEAKER: Before we proceed I should like to direct the attention of the honour able members to the gallery where we have 60 students of Grades 5 and 6 standing of the William Osler School . These students are under the direction of Miss Lambert and Miss Greenbert. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for River Heights , the Leader of the Opposition. On behalf of all the honourable members of the Legislative Assembly, I welcome you here today .

Presenting Petitions ; Reading and Receiving Petitions ; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committ ees; Ministerial Statem ents and Tabling of Reports. The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. TABLING OF REPORTS HON . SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture) (Lac du Bonnet): Mr . Speaker, I wish to table the Annual Report of the Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation year ended March 1972. MR . SP EAKER: Any other Ministerial Statements or Reports ? Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills . The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON .

HOWARD PAWLEY (Minister of Municipal Affairs ) (Selkirk) introduced Bill No . 13,

an Act to amend The Local Authorities Election Act; and Bill No . 14,

an Act to amend The Soldier's Taxation Relief Act . (Recommended by His Honour the Lieutenant Governor.) HON . A. H. MAC KLING, Q.C . (Attorney-General) (St . James) introduced Bill No . 16,

an Act to amend The Tortfeasors and Contributory Negligence Act; and Bill No . 15,

an Act to amend The Married Women's Property Act . ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside . MR . HARRY ENNS (Lakeside): Thank you , Mr . Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Honourable the Attorney-General, of which I have given notic e. Can the Attorney-General tell me or the House that at the time he authorized the criminal charges did he consider the effect it would have on the functioning of the CFI Inquiry Commission ? MR. MACK LING: The answer. is yes,and such charges were laid on the advice of legal counsel employed for that purpose . MR . ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, I direct a further question to the Attorney-General , of which he has also received notice . Why were criminal charges not diligently proceeded with in the due course of the ordinary administratio n of justice in the Province of Manitoba ? MR . MAC KLING: Mr . Speaker, on the advice of counsel charges were laid. There was a basis for those charges being laid , but delaying of the charges facilitated the pursuit of further information obtainable outside of this country, and as a result of the information that was obtained, counsel had been considering recommendations in respect to other charges . MR .

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside . Last supplementary . MR . ENNS : Mr . Speaker, I direct a further question at the Speaker which in my judgment is not a supplemental question , Mr . Speaker. The Attorney-General has also received notice of this question . Does the government intend to accept any report from the CF I Inquiry Commission prior to the conclusion of the criminal proceedings ? MR . MAC KLING: Mr . Spea ker, the government is not in a position to know the date on which a final report would be obtained from the CF I Inquiry Commission.

However, pur suant to its terms of reference the Commission would tender its report to the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council .and the Lieutenant-Govern or-in -Council would be guided by the advice of legal counsel as to when and how release of the contents of that report can be made . MR . ENNS : Mr . Speaker, I direct anoth er question to the Attorney-General of which he has also received notic e. Does the government accept the judg ment made by the Chief Justice of the Queen's Bench -- Queen 's Court Bench of Manitoba, that under these

242 March 5, 1973 ORA L QUESTION PERIOD (MR . ENNS cont'd) .•••. circumstanc es the issue of the CF I Commission Inquiry Board will, firstly, prejudice the due prosecution of Dr . Kasser and Dr . Reiser; and secondly, constitutes contempt of court . MR . MAC KLING: Mr . Speaker, for purp oses best known to those involved, there has been concern to have publicity given to the recommendations that are made in confidence to government in respect to the conduct of the. administration of justic e.

As to whether or not prejudice has occurred by the publicity that 's been given in open court, I am in no position to judge . The matter is before the court and there will be a full statement before the court tomorrow . MR . ENNS: Mr. Speaker, a further question directed at the Attorney-General . Has the conduct of the Attorney-General, in his opinion, prejudiced Manitoba's ability to extradite and bring Messrs . Kasser and Reiser before the courts of Manitoba for prosecution ? MR . SPEAK ER : The Honourable First Minister . HON .

EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier) (Rossmere): I am wondering, Sir, if the Chair can regard that as a proper question, a question which asks the Attorney-General if his con duct has been such as to carry out properly the administration of justic e. Mr. Speaker, that kind of question, it seems to me, is patently out of order. MR , SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside . MR . ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the First Minister .

I wonder if he can tell whether or not he considers the conduct of the Attorney-General as having been such to prejudice Manitoba 's ability to extradite and bring them before the courts of Manitoba for prosecution. MR . SCHREYER: Mr . Speaker, I really don't think that that question deserves an answer, but if I don't answer someone will think that there is some uncertainty or whatev er. Mr. Speaker, my attitude relative to the Attorney-General 's ca rrying out of his duties is such that I regard his work and his carrying out of his duti es to be impeccable in every respect. I'm still answering the question, Mr.

Speaker. If the honourable member is asking whether there is any intention on the part of the Crown to proceed in the way the courts would like, I simply say, and I'll put it in layman's terms so that we both can understand each other, that insofar as we are concerned we would love to see the prosecutions proceeded with but in a manner and at a time on which there can be concurrence of you as to proper sequence between two very important and official entities: one branch of government and a very official enquiry commission . Mr . Speaker, the Honourable Member for Lakeside knows all that . MR . ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, I thank the First Minister for his answer to the last ques tion . I have one final question to direct to the Honourable the Attorney-General . Has there been any discussions between Cabinet, a committee of Cabinet or any member of Cabinet, with the Commission of Enquiry or any member of that Commission relative to the Commission's report or to the pending criminal charges now being considered against Kasser and Reiser other than during the course of the open hearings before the Comm ission of Enquiry ? MR . MACKL ING: Mr.

Speaker, it's yes, the Commission of Enquiry has made it known to the Attorney-General in no uncertain terms that they are very concerned about the timing of any criminal proceedings because they have not finished their work, a work which they consider vital to complete the taking of evidence which they are charged with . MR . ENNS: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, to the Honourable the Attorney General. Can he indicate, was he the only member of Cabinet undertaking these discussions with the Commission members or were there other members of Cabinet involved ? MR. MACKLING: Mr .

Speaker, I think the honourable member is indulging now in a fishing expedition and I'm not concerned to answer it . MR . SPEAK ER : The Honoura ble Leader of the Liberal Party . MR . I. H. (Izzy) ASPER (Leader of the Liberal Party) (Wolseley): Mr . Speaker, my question is an invitation to the First Minister to answer. In view of the fact that the people of Manitoba, according to news reports, have been sued for the staggering sum of half a billion dollars to date, would the First Minister care to make, rather than an answer, a full statement to the House at this time ? MR . SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, the Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party, the Member for Wolseley, likes to style himself as a learned member of the bar . I don't know what the point of his question is when he asks about the lawsuit that has been launched for

March 5, 1973 243 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD (MR. SCHREYER cont'd) ••.•• some $500 million; my only answer would be that I suppose it would have an equal credibility had they launched it 20, OOO leagues under the sea . MR . ASPER : Mr. Speaker, then I'll ask the First Minister, is it true that the people of Manitoba have been sued for $500 million in the courts of New Jersey, lawsuits having been launched today? Is it true? MR . SCHREY ER: Mr.

Speaker, whether or not the persons referred to have launched a suit against the people of Manitoba for $500 million of course has to be taken in the context of the fact that certain investigations that have been carried out in the last three years, 2 1/2 years thereabouts , are such as to cause us not to have any fear as to the probable outcome of any such court action . In any case, Mr .

Speaker, the At torney-General has already indicated there is a Commission of Enquiry trying to complete its wo rk and hopefully they will not be impeded from so doing, in which case the reply to my honourable friend will become crystal clear . MR . ASP ER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, to the First Minister. When did the First Minister or any other member of his government learn that there was an indication that such a lawsuit would be launched? MR . SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, it is difficult to answer my honourable friend's ques tion simply because there has been no formal serving of notice of claim for $500 million, or any claim whatsoever in that respect . There have been certain reports brought to our attention , you might say less formally than by way of serving of any notice or any claim . MR . ASPER : Mr . Speaker, to the First Minister .

Will the First Minist er, or the Attorney-General if that 's more appropriate, inform the House whether the laying or the not prosecuting of the criminal charges, the decision to not proceed with those for six months, was in any way influenced by the pending lawsuit which was brought today? MR . MAC KLING: Mr . Speaker, the principles involved in these companies have in the past exhibited an indication that they are prepared to employ public relations firms; they have the means and they have exercised every opportunity to attract as much publicity as they can .

Counsel advising th"l Attorney-General is concerned that there is an attempt to indicate that in some way their rights are being impugned by a publicity campaign at this time, so it does not come as an unexpected turn of events. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel . MR. DONALD W. CR AIK (Riel): Mr . Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Attorney-General. In view of the actions initiated in New Jersey announced today , and in view of the fact that the Enquiry Co mmission here is a provincial Enquiry Commission, at this point does the Criminal Code of Canada not take precedence over other actions ?

MR . SPEAKER: Order please . Order please . The honourable member is asking for a legal opinion . The Honourable Member for Riel . MR . CRAIK: Mr . Speaker, I'd like to direct a further question to the Attorney General . Did not the special counsel he's referred to recommend that the criminal charges be proceeded with ? MR . MAC KLING: Mr . Speaker, advice to the Attorney-General relating to criminal charges is highly confidential and it 's imprudent for an Attorney-General to advise and to elaborate on charges, the basis of the advice and so on in this House , and the honourable member should know that . MR .

CRAIK: Mr . Speaker, I have a final question to the Attorney-General . Did not the RCM P press he or his office to proceed with criminal charges? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I believe that question was answered, and I can indicate that under Citation 171,

Section g(

g) it is improper to ask a question seeking inform ations about matt ers which are in their natur e secret, such as decisions or proceedings of Cabinet , advice given to Crown by law officers, etc . I do wish the honourable members woold check Beauchesne occasionally so that we wouldn't have this problem . The Honourable Member for Rupertsland . MR . JEAN AL LARD (Rupertsland) : Mr . Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Public Works .

In view of the fact that there is a hole already dug in the ground, could the Minister tell the House what the government intends to do now that the City of Winnipeg has turned down the building permit application for a public wa shroom in Memorial Park ? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Public Works .

244 March 5, 1973 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD HON , RUSSE LL DO ERN (Minister of Public Works) (Elmwood) : Mr . Speaker, I don't know how long it will take for the City to give us final approval . I do know that we applied for a lane closing for our new office building in May of 1972 and that in February of '73 we were given approval, so I really don't know whether it will require two days, two weeks, two month s or two years for that approval . MR . AL LARD: I have a somewhat related question, Mr . Speaker, to the same Minister; it has to do with how long things take .

Could he advise the Independent members of this House when they will have some quarters in view of the fact that he had originally told us it would take one week -- (Interjections) -- one week ... or should we use that hole in the ground ? MR . DOERN: Well, Mr . Speaker, we are not constructing a room for the Independent members, but I might point out that the Members' Lounge across is available for members year round and I believe that by the end of the week you will have your room . MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party . MR . ASPER: Mr . Speaker, the question is to the First Minister .

In view of his state ment as reported in the Saturday newspapers that he was receiving "conflicting advice on the proper course of action" that should be followed on the CF I hearings and the CF I charges, would he inform the House from whom he has been receiving conflicting advice? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister . MR . SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, there have been a number of discussions as to the proper sequence that ought to be followed .

I have already said earlier this afternoon that there is the case or the problem where the court on the one hand is suggesting (more than suggesting -- insisting on) and requiring one particular sequence, and an official Commission of Inquiry headed by a retired Chief Justice of this province and his colleagues are suggesting another sequence . The problem is procedural really, not substantive . I would like to certainly believe that, and so insofar as the substance of the problem is concerned, I certainly have no fears but that the prosecutions will be proceeded with as indeed they ought to , Mr .

Speaker, let there be no doubt about thaL MR . ASPER: Mr . Speaker, to the First Minister . In vj_ew of the somewhat surprising statement by the Attorney-General that he has been consulting with the Commission, does the First Minister not feel that the actions of the Attorney-General have brought into question the independence of a judicial inquiry ? MR. SCHREYER: Mr .

Speaker, if one analyzes the honourable member's series of questions , one will see that he has tried to develop it into an absolute conundrum, because in order to try to deal with this problem of procedure and sequence, then clearly there was need to try to get some concurrence of view or at least to attempt to with respect to the procedure and sequence, inasmuch as one ent ity, that is to say the Judicial Branch, was insisting on one and there was advice from the other, that is to say the official Commission of Inquiry, initiated by them, not upon any request by the Attorney-General but from them, that there was need to follow a certain other sequence in order for them to best complete their work.

Given that circumstance, Mr. Speaker, it was completely impossible not to become advised from both sides, both entities, as to the ideal sequence of action in their respective views. Having said that, Mr . Speaker, I think it is quite understanda ble. MR . ASPER: A supplementary, Mr . Speaker. Then is the Premier saying that he regards the Commission of Inquiry as an agency of the government as opposed to an independ ent commission ? MR . SCHREYER: Mr . Speaker, I said nothing of the kind . The Attorney-General is charged with the administration of justic e.

If in the opinion of a Co mmission of Inquiry a course of action is about to be undertaken at the behest of someone, and the responsibility of the Attorney-General is to make the decision as to when criminal prosecutions are commenced, then clearly the Commission of Inquiry would feel obligated to make its view known and , Mr . Speaker, that is so much a matter of common sense that it is absolutely disgraceful for the Member for Wolseley to even suggest any impropriety on the part of any Chief Justice of the bench or a retired Chief Justice or •... MR . SPEAKER: Order please . Order please .

Would the honourable member state his point of privilege or his point of order. MR . ASPER: The First Minister has suggested that there was an implication in the question that I put to him of impropriety on the part of the Commission. Such is not the case,

March 5, 1973 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD (MR . ASPER cont'd) ...•. such will not appear from any examination of what was said, but what was suggested was that a compromising action was taken by the ... 245 MR . SPEAKER: Order please. Order. The honourable gentleman may make resolu tions and debate his issue . I will not have it debated during the oral question period . You may answer or raise questions but I shall not tolerate a debate . Those are your rules . Take your time, gentlemen, I'll call on you one at a time. Those are your rules.

I shall call upon each of you to state your views but let us remember, this is an oral question period, let's keep it cool , keep it <short, terse and precise and let's not debate . Does the Honourable First Minister wish to finish his reply? MR . SCHREYER: I had stated that I was , I had no reason to believe whatsoever that there was improper action on anyone's part, that 's the whole point of it. It was the Honourable Member for Wolseley that suggested in his question that perhaps there was a compromising position taken by someone .

He didn't make it clear whether that might be the Attorney-General or the Chairman of the Commission of Inquiry, but certainly it was suggested in his question that there may be a compromising attitu de, impropriety on someone's part . At that point perhaps I was negligent; I should have asked for a withdrawal right there and then . MR . SPEAKER: Will the honourable member state his point of order ? MR. ASPER: It 's the same point of order, Mr. Speaker.

I'm calling for the withdrawal by the First Minister of his statement that it was disgraceful for me to ask the question and for him to interpret the question as being an affront to the Chief Justice of this province when it is clear from the question .. . MR . SPEAKER: Order please . Order please. Order . There is no point of order on that particular matter . The Honourable Member for Riel . MR . CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Attorney-General .

Is it correct that the special counsel he has referred to has indicated he will quit unless the proceedings for criminal justice are not proceeded with in deference to political interests . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General . MR . MACKLlNG: Mr . Speaker, at this stage it is hard for me to contain my contempt for such a loaded question . There is no truth to the loaded question that the honourable member presents.

He presents a question full of innuendo; he indicates that he has some particular knowledge of something, and it's contemptible on the part of the honourable member to pre sent that question. The answer certainly is no . MR . SPEAKER: Order please . I should like to suggest to the honourable members that no answer has to be given and those who demand an answer are out of order. They should remember that . The Honourable Member for Morris. MR . WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): Mr.

Speaker, I should like to direct my question to the First Minister and ask him if any meetings were held by any member of the cabinet with any member of the Commission on the subject , other than the matter of procedure in this particular case. MR . SCHREYER: Mr . Speaker, there have been from time to time questions arising with respect to procedure and those have been dealt with by the Attorney-General . Does that answer my honourable friend 's question ? MR . JORGENSON : No , Mr . Speaker. The question was , have meetings been held on matters other than the question of procedure? MR .

SCHREYER: Matters of procedure, Mr . Speaker, not matters of substance, as I have indicated earlier. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Osborne . MR. IAN TURNBULL (Osborne): I have a question for the Minist er of Mines and Natural Resources . Ca n the Minister advise the House whether his department has cancelled the contract awarded a year ago to the University for the conducting of a physical impact study on the shores of South Indian Lake and tributary rivers ? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines and Resources . HON .

SIDNEY GREEN (Minister of Mines, Resources and Environmental )'.[anagement) (Inkster): Mr . Speaker, there has been no cancellation of a contract, as I understand it . There is phase I of a contract which was let to the University, which has now to my knowledge been completed, or at least I understand it 's completed , the reports of which I do not have yet . In the contract there was an option which permitted us to engage anoth er study, and the

246 March 5, 197 3 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD (MR. GREEN cont'd) ••••• University has been notif ied that that option is not going to be re newed, that the studies will be done in house. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland . MR, JAC OB M. FROESE (Rhineland): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct my question to the Honourable Minister of Mines and Resources .

Does the government of Manitoba, or has the government of Manitoba carried on negotiati ons either with the Canadian government, the U .s. government or the State of North Dakota in connection , in relation with the Pembina Dam development and with the possible dam construction on the United States side which might hinder our chances of having a dam on our side? MR , GREEN: Mr . Speaker, there are continuing discussions taking place between various officials, who I won't identify for the sake of accuracy, but involving United States people and Canadian people regarding Pembilier Dam .

The matter has also been referred to the Manitoba Water Commission . MR . SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre. MATTE R OF PERSONAL PRIVILEGE MR. J. R. (Bud) BOYCE (Winnipeg Centre): Before the Orders of the Day, Mr . Speaker, I would like to rise on a matter of personal privilege . On Friday last there was an

article appeared in the Winnipeg Free Press "More in NDP versus Diversion" in which it links my name with several others, and I wish to make it quite clear that I have never given any indication whatsoever that this would be my position .

My position , so it will be clear for the record at this time, I will be stating it further in the debate relative to the capital supply pertaining to Hydro, but my initial position was that I supported the 35 feet , and I have learned to, because of the $8 million that was expended by the Hydro and the government in amassing the information with which one could make a bare analysis of the situati on, I fully support the government in their stand at this time. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Cont'd MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Osborne . MR . TURNBULL: Mr .

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Health and Social Development . Will the Minister advise the House if, as alleged by the Leader of the Liberal Party, the Federal Government has in fact contributed a substanti al amount of money to the personal Care Home Program that will be introduc ed in the province of Manitoba? HON . RENE E. TOUPIN (Minister of Health & Social Development)( Springfield): Mr .

Speaker, the Federal Government under the Canada Assistance Plan is now cost -sharing approximately 62 percent of nursing home care for those that are at the responsibility of the Department of Health and Social Development . The Federal Government has completely refused cost-sharing, and this in writing, has completely refused cost -sharing under a universal program covered under Medicare, even including those that are wards of the province. SOME MEMBERS: Shame, shame . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge . MRS . INEZ TRUEMAN (Fort Rouge): Mr .

Speaker, I have a question for the Honour able Minister of Health and Social Development . Could he inform the House, then , when the Nursing Home Ca re is included under Medicare and Hospitalization, will the present cost sharing of 50-50 for that 62 percent who are not covered disappear? MR. TOUPIN: Mr . Speaker, I thought I dealt with that in the answer I gave to the honourable member, but to make it clear, the existing cost-s haring under CAP will be cut off as soon as the coverage of Nursing Home Care and other levels of care are covered under Medicare.

We are pursuing with the Federal Government the possibility of cost -sharing at all levels of care . We have a precedent in Canada where the province of Alberta is receiving cost-sharing in auxiliary hospital beds which can be classified as a level of care , at least in most nursing home facilities . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris . MR , JORGENSO N: Mr.

Speaker, I should like to direct my question to the Minister of Health and Social Development , and ask him in view of his statement that he just made about his dissatisfaction with the Government of Ottaw a, will he now contact his colleagues in Ottawa

March 5, 1973 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD (MR. JORGENSO N cont 'd) ••••• and ask them to turf the rascals out . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister . MR . SCHREYER: Mr . Speaker, before my colleague answers that question , I would like him to consider the alternative , which is even worse. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party . Order . 247 MR . ASPER: My question is to the Honourable Minister of Health .

Would it be fair to take from his answer on the question to the Honourable Member from Fort Rouge that his department is engaged in negotiations or intends to launch negotiations with the Federal Government to contribute the usual proportion for senior citizens' nursing home care if it 's brought under the Medicare plan? MR . TOUPIN: Well, Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party is quite aware that the New Democratic ---(Interjecti on) -- the Leader of the Liberal Party is aware that the New Dem ocratic Party has been negotiating with Ottawa for the last at least ten years .

I, having been Minister -- since the 18th of December 1969 I have been negotiating with the Federal Government to cost share not only at all levels of care within instituti ons, but equally home care services, to no avail, and we are still continuing. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR . CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Tourism. Can he advise whether he or his department are considering expropriation of land in the West Hawk Lake area that may be privately held land or leasehold land held by individuals? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation. HON. LAURENT L. DE SJARDINS (Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Cu ltural Affair s) (St . Boniface): Mr. Speaker, not that I'm aware of but I'll take notice of the question. MR . CRAIK: A supplementary question . In the Throne Speech, Mr. Speaker, the reference that's made to corridor acquisition, does it apply to areas such as West Hawk Lake area? MR . DESJARDINS : That will be discussed in the Estimates -- anything in the Throne Speech will be discussed in the Estimate s. CORREC TION MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR . GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to correct an incorrect -- I'd like to make a correction to a statement which I made which appears in Hansard , which may cause some embarrassment for the Honourable Member for St. Vital . In making a remark which I intended to make relative to the Honourable Member for Riel on page 176, I referred to the Honourable Member for St . Vital as having taken a certain position last year in the Legislatu re. It should be the Honourable Member for Riel and I apologize to the Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. SPEAKER: Correction is noted . Orders of the Day . The Honourable House Leader. MR .

GREEN: Mr . Speaker, may I remind honourable members who are on the seven man, the committee of seven, that we would be meeting in the Members Lounge very informally at 5:·30 today, hopefully to agree to the committee structure for the sitting com mittees of the House; 5:30 today. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Co nt'd MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland . MR . FROESE : Mr. Speaker, I would like to add ress a further question to the Honour able the Minister of Mines and Natura l Resources.

Is it the intention of the government to contribute certain funds to the development of the Pembina on the American side which pro vides water for the towns of Gretna and Altona? MR . GREEN: Mr . Speaker, if an agreement is reached regarding construction of certain water installations affecting the United States and Can ada , there would be an agreed upon cost -sharing arrangement. My understanding is tha t the reverse would take true; in order to have the cost benefits reflect Canadian minus benefits that the United States would have to spend money for installations which wo uld be on our side.

However, I don't wish to be

248 March 5, 1973 ORA L QUESTION PERIOD (MR . GREEN cont 'd) ••••• definitive on that subject; it's more complicated than I can answer in just a single moment . There would be cost -sharing between the two governments . MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable First Minister . MOTIONS OF CO NDOLENCES MR. SCHREYER: Mr . Speaker, at this time I would , pursuant to notice which I gave honourable members last Friday, I would like to turn their attention to the condolence motions which I will bring forward at this time . In the first case, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ,draw honourable members' attention to the passing last August 13th of the late Oscar Ferdinand Bjornson, MLA for the constit uency of Lac du Bonnet . In the late Mr. Bjornson 's case it is easy for me to speak to his memory because I had the privilege of serving with him in this Legislative Assembly for a period of seven years from 1958 to 1965 .

In addition to that , of course, he served a part of this province in this Assembly, the constituency of Lac du Bonnet, which includes the area of the Winnipeg River, some farming land west of the Winnipeg River and a good deal of what I call the bushland east and northeast of the Winnipeg River . Mr .

Bjornson was one who loved that part of the provinc e which he represented , that part of the province where the prairies give way to the shield, that part of the provinc e in which many people make their livelihood from the cutting of pulpwood, from the hauling of pulp wood, working in the pulp and paper mill, working on their farms and so on -- and tourism . Mr . Bjornson, the late Mr. Bjornson, was one who had a rather interesting, varied career.

He served for a time with the Ford Motor Company , I believe it was , and after a period of service with that company was posted as a representative of the Ford Motor Company in India , having lived there for some time in that sub-continent when he returned and ran for public office and sat here in this House in the seat now occupied by the Minister of Tourism and Recreation .

He used to, I think about once a session, rise in his place and talk to us -- I think that 's the best way to put it -- talk to us about his experiences in that far distant part of the world; the problems of humanity and the teeming masses in that country, the kind of social and economic problems to be encountered there as compared to the kinds of problems that we have here in this country and which we tend to make so much of from time to time . And so without wa sting words, as the late Mr.

Bjornson himself was not one to waste words, I would like at this time to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Agri culture, that this House convey to the family of the late Oscar Ferdinand Bjornson, who served as a member of the Legislative As sembly of Manitoba, its sincere sympathy in their bereavement and its appreciation of his devotion to duty in a useful life of active community and public service, and that Mr. Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this resolution to the family . MOTION presented. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR . USKIW : Mr .

Speaker, it 's indeed an honour and a privilege to second the motion of the First Minister . I have the honour of representing the constituency of Lac du Bonnet which was so ably represented by the late Oscar Bj ornson . My knowledge of him, however, was connected only with the activities of this House, the various meetings and committees that we sat on together and so on, so that I'm not able to elaborate as did the First Minister on all of the things that the late Oscar Bj ornson was capable of doing and so on . I want to say that the asso ciation that I had with him was certainly a pleasant one .

I have to agree that the late Oscar Bjornson did make a generous contribution to the people of Manitoba and in particular his constituent s, and I want to asso ciate myself with the motion of condolence. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney. MR . EARL McKELLAR (Souris-Killarney) : Mr. Speaker, I'd like to say a few words related to Oscar Bj ornson .

Oscar , as we all knew him in our caucus , as mentioned by the First Minister was elected in '59 , re-elected in '62 and re-elected in '66 and, as the Minister of Agriculture just mentioned, redistribution took place at that time and the constituenc ies were changed and left Oscar with no constituency at that time to run in. But I had the pleasure of sitting with Oscar in caucus for ten years during tha t time, 1959- 69, and he did represent his people well in that constituency and it was an unusual constituency because, as the First Minister mentioned , it was part agriculture,

part lumbering, and tourism involved too, and

March 5, 19 73 249 MOTIONS OF CONDOLENCES (MR. EARL McKELLAR cont'd) .•..• some mining, and he represented it well both in caucu s and in the Legislature. He did have quite a life before he came in here as mentioned by the First Minister, having been associated with Ford Motor Co mpany, and he did tell us all the many experiences in India that he had during the time that he spent there representing the Ford Motor Company .

He came back to Lac du Bonnet, started up a business there at Lac du Bonnet, a Fo rd Motor dealer, and he had the misfortune of having his garage burned down, and I can remember it so well because it was an interval or I don't know where the problems lay but he had no insurance on at that time and he went to work for another dealer there in Lac du Bonnet. Now, Mr.

Speaker, many of us I suppose will be remembered for many reasons while we 're members of the Legislature; some of us because we talked too much, some of us because we talk too little, but I think the most important reason is how you represent the people in your own area not the way you perform in here,and:Ithiilkfrom what I have heard that he represented his people well, his area, looked after their problems well, and that's the most important, what counts as a Member of the Legislature, in my opinion. Mr.

Speaker, we of the Conservative caucu s would like to associate ourselves with this condolence motion put before the members here this afternoon, to Mrs . Bjornson and members of the family, and we have always considered Oscar an excellent member in our caucus for those ten years he represented us here in this House. MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for La Verendrye . MR. LEONARD A. BARKMAN (La Verendrye) : Mr .

Speaker, our group would like to as sociate us with the motion that was just presented by the First Minister, and I'm sure that three of us in our group sat with him from 1962 to 1969 and all of us in this As sembly that knew him, and there's quite a few others that sit with him, cannot help but remember his pleasing personality . I can never forget one year when the news media chose him as the best dressed MLA in thi s Assembly, and he usually was too . But his pleasing personality and also his sincerity.

As has been mentioned by the two former speakers, he was well loved by his own people, not only loving his constituency dearly, as was mentioned, but somehow the people wanted to be close to him and he wanted to be close to his people . I can never forget the time that Mr. and Mrs. Bjornson and Mr . and Mrs. -- or the Member for St . John 's, the former Minister of Finance -- when we went on this parliamentary trip to Alberta I thought that we got to know each other very well and it was very pleasant to get to know this man .

I must perhaps complete the story of Oscar being with the Ford Co mpany for a number of years, and somehow the last eight or ten years I believe he was also asso ciated with the General Motors dealer in Lac du Bonnet, the work that he enjoyed very much. So, Mr. Speaker, we wish to asso ciate ourselves with this motion and also wish Mrs . Bjornso n, the children and the grandchildren whom he loved so very dearly, our sincere condolenc es . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland . MR. FROESE: Mr.

Speaker, I too would like to join with others who have already spoken giving condolences to the family of Oscar Bjornso n. Oscar, with whom I sat in the House for all the years since 1960, was a very dear friend of mine and, as already mentioned, having been in the Far East he had a real understanding for people and especially of those more unfortunate, and this always came out whenever he spoke and also in all his dealings. I would like to express sincere regrets and express my condolences to the family of the late Oscar Bjornson . MR .

SPEAKER : In acc epting and agreeing to the motion of condolence would the honourable members please rise for a moment of silence. MR. SCHREY ER: Mr . Speaker, I would now like to refer honourable members to the passing away, the death last August 19th of the former MLA for the con stituency of Gimli St . George, the late Doctor Steinn Ollafur Thompson . I did not have the pleasure of personal acquaintanceship with the late Dr . Thompson but I suppose I could say in an indirect fashion that I did know him.

The area which he represented, the area is subsumed within the federal constituency of Selkirk, which I had the honour of representing for a short period of time. To all of the people in that area, that community of Manitoba in and around Riverton, of course the memory of the late Dr. Thompson is well preserved . Dr . Thompson entered medical practice as far back as 1922 in Riverton . He served

,---------------- 250 March 5, 1973 MOTIONS OF CONDOLENC ES (MR . SCHREYER cont'd) ••••. overseas in World War I on behalf of his country in the Field Ambulance Service at that period of world history . He served as a Member of the Legislative As sembly for Gimli in the period 1945 to 1958. I think it is also worthy of note and worth mentioning here for the record that in the year 1968 he was one of the recipients of Manitoba 's Golden Boy award . He leaves behind him to mourn his family, two daughters and two sons . Accordingly, Mr .

Speaker, I move , seconded by the Honourable the Member for Gimli , that this House convey to the family of the late Steinn Ollafur Thompson, who served as a Member of the Legislative As sembly of Manitoba, its sincere sympathy in their bereavement and its appreciation of his devotion to duty in a useful life of active community and public service, and that Mr . Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this resolution to the family. MOTION presented . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Gimli. MR. JOHN C. GOTTFRIED (Gimli): Mr.

Speaker, I wish to thank the Honourable the }Cirst Minister for extending to me the privilege of joining with him in this expression of sympathy to the family of the late Steinn Ollafur Thompson who passed away at his home last August 19th at the age of 78. Dr . Thompson is aff ectionately remembered as one of the great men of New Iceland , where he served in the Riverton community since 1922 , a period of 50 years . During this time he was one of its most revered and active citizens, working patiently at his chosen profession as well as being a member of the Legislative As sembly of Manitoba from 1945 to 195 8.

In 1968 he was the proud recipient of the Manitoba Golden Boy award, as you have just been informed . I have had the honour of meeting with Dr . Thompson on a number of occasions and from these experiences I can say that his whole life was a selfless dedicatio n to the service of his fellow man . Throughout his life he participated as a leader in many organizations and in all community affairs .

For many years during the pioneer stages of development he admin istered to the health needs of this community, often under very trying and difficult circum stan ces , visiting his patients by horse and buggy in the summer and by dog sled and cutter in the winter months, and frequently without compensation except for the personal satisfaction of rendering a much needed service . While a member of this Assembly he did much to promote the settlement of the area north of Riverton through his influence in urging the construction of roads and property drain age , something he will long be remembered for .

I recall that he was in this Chamber when the question of instituting larger school areas was being debated , and I well remember his plea for the retention of the little red school house because it was his firm belief that the close pupil-teacher relationship exerted a beneficial influence upon the molding of a student's character, and in particular in the promotion of such admirable qualities as self reliance, self respect, tolerance and respect for others and initiative , all qualities so evident in his own life style . Mr .

Speaker, I know that I speak for all members of this Chamber when I say that we wholeheartedly support this message of sympathy. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney. MR. McKELLAR: Mr . Speaker, I'd just like to say a word about the late Dr . Thompson, former Member of Gimli constituen cy, who passed away at the age of 78 years of age last August, and I think we all have to understand the only one member in the Legislature here that did sit with Dr. Thompson, that was the Honourable Minister of Labour; all the rest of us came in since 1958 or lat er.

So I guess he would be the one that would remember him best in this House , but I have been told by many former members of the Legislature that Dr . Thompson was a good member of the Legislature, a kind man and a man well respected by all the members at that particular time . I'd like to say to the members also that Dr. Thompson was first elected as a Progressive-Cons ervative having been elected in 1945 and 1949 , and during the coalition government transferred his allegiance to the Liberal-Progressives, I guess at that time, and ran as a Liberal-Progressive in 1953 and was re-elected at that time .

The redistribution at that time, 195 8 took place , and I don't know whether that was the reason for him not running at that time, but the Hon . George Johnson was elected at that time , in 195 8, to represent Gi mli, so they have had a long period of time when they were represented by a medical doctor . As mentioned by the First Minister and the Member for Gimli, he did pioneer in

March 5, 1973 251 MOTIONS OF CO NDOLENCES (MR . McKELLAR cont'd) .•... medicine in the Riverton area and I think that many of the people who lived in Riverton at that time and since then will remember him for his years that he served them well as a doctor in that area . ' Mr . Speaker, we of the Conservative caucus would like to join with the First Minister in his motion of condolence to Mrs . Thompson and members of the family . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party . MR . ASP ER: Mr .

Speaker, I think it goes without saying that I'm speaking on behalf of the entire Liberal caucus when I add our ass ociation to the resolution before us to extend the sympathy and condolences of this House to the family of the late Dr . Thompson . It was not my pleasure to have known Dr .

Thompson personally , but certainly by reputation , and those of us in this House, I think that regardless of what side we sit on , have made the commitment that the highest value of a community or of a man or woman in the community is to serve, and that is the highest calling one can pursue can certainly, from what's been said up to now , can be said about Dr . Thompson , can certainly take his life as an exemplary creed of what service really means.

He was a man, from what l 've known of him , who felt things keenly; he took his positions and he took his blows for having taken those positions , but mainly he gave of himself generously and humanely whenever an occasion required and even in cases where he himself judged that his services were needed; he did not wait to be asked.

Both in this House and in his community he was well loved by those who remember him in his community and certainly by those who served with him in this House, well respected on all sides of the House, and my honourable friend makes the point that he was originally elected as a Conserv ative; it is a tribute to 11is judgment and wisdom that he also ran and served as a Liberal. He was a pioneer in his community; to many people in the Riverton area he serves as a legend .

There are people who described his contribution to the development of concern and care over health and education as being one of the pioneers of commitment in that area . There are many stories that circulate about the constituency still today about him. His service in the war was perhaps another example of his commitment to his community, but it was true that the highlight, the pleasure that he received in 1968 by being named the Golden Boy, probably capped his career in terms of his service. And so, to the two daught ers and to the two sons who he leaves behind we add our condolenc es .

We hope their burden is softened by the fact that so many men and women of Manitoba will remember him with respect, and we hope that their grief will be lightened some how by the fact that they will at least be able to know that their fath er was a man who was respected, who was loved, and that he enjoyed a rich and full life; and so I add the voice of the Liberal Party to the resolution . MR . SPEAKER : In acc epting and agreeing the motion will the honourable members please rise for a moment of silence . The Honourable First Minister . MR . SCHREYER : Mr .

Speaker, I now refer honourable members to the late William Lewis Bullmore, Esquire, the former member of the constituency of Dauphin . Again it's a case of having to say that I did not have the personal acquaintan ceship with the late Mr . Bullmore, but certainly from the notes that have been provided it is quite clear that he was one who could be, I suppose , best described in colloquial terms as a "joiner" and one who was very actively involved in community aff airs and in community improvements . The late Mr.

Bullmore was born in Minnedosa , lived for a period of time in his younger years in Winnipeg, and then moved to the community of Dauphin where he established a busi ness and found time in addition to the running of his business to involve himself in such private non -profit service organizations as the Lions Club, the Elks Lodge; he was a member of the Order of the Eastern Star; he found time for the religious dimension of man , serving as a rector's warden at St .

Paul's Anglican Church in Dauphin; he was a member of the Minnedosa Symphony Orchestra; a founder and first President of the Manitoba Urban Association ; a past Master of the Vermilion Lodge of the Kharto um Past Mast ers' Club and a life member of the Khartoum Drum and Bugle Corps , and a member of the Khartoum Temple, a Ma sonic order. So clearly, Mr .

Speaker, the late William Bullmore was one who found time some how , some way, to successfully operate a business , to involve himself and give of his time to local community activit ies, community developments and improvements, to serve as a mayor of the Town of Dauphin for a period of ten years, and a member of this

252 March 5, 1973 MOTIONS OF CO NDOLENC ES (MR , SCHREYER cont 'd) .•••• Legislative As sembly for a period of five years, 195 3 to 195 8. Again it is a case of only the Minister of Labour among all of us here present in this Assembly having had a personal acquaintanc eship as colleagues in this Assembly during the same term . Mr .

Speaker, I would at this point move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Highways, that this House convey to the family of the late William Lewis Bullmore, who served as a member of the Legislative As sembly of Manitoba, its sincere sympathy in their bereavement and its appreciation of his devotion to duty in a useful life of active community and public service, and that Mr. Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this resolution to the family. MOTION presented . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways . MR .

BURTNIAK: Mr, Speaker, I rise to second this condolence motion for the late William Bullmore, whom I had the pleasure of knowing for some time and whom I've always considered as a personal friend . I don't know if there are too many members in the House at present who knew him, however, I do believe that there are a few that did, and I would think that they will agree with me when I say that Bill, as he was known to his friends, tried to always be cheerful and tried to cheer others, although he may have been depressed him self.

He contributed a lot in many different ways to the community in which he lived and to the Province of Manitoba which he loved , Because of his kindness and understanding of people's problems, natura lly he gained many friends and, as he once told me, that was why he chose to enter the political arena so that he could try to assist those in need, first as the Mayor of the Town of Dauphin, and later as an MLA for the constituency of Dauphin which I have the pleasure of representing at this time . In seconding this motion, I extend my deepest sympathy to his wife and family . MR .

SPEAKER: ·T he Honourable Member for Roblin . MR . McKENZIE : Mr. Speaker, I would like to add the comments of the Cons ervative caucus to the motion, the resolution which has been put before us by the Honourable the Premier and seconded by the Minister of Highways . I was personally acquainted with this jovial man, this well-known parklander from the Dauphin area . I knew him fraternally, personally, a family man who had gained the complete respect of everybody from every walk of life over the years .

His being the first president and the organizer of the Manitoba Urban As sociation was one of the great achievements of his career and one that he shall · be long remembered for . He was a very interesting political man, Mr . Bullmore. Before he decided to run as a Social Credit candidate in the 1953 election he bad been approached by the Liberals, and for some unknown reason he declined .

Then the Tories, they got involved with this most interesting person and they wanted him to run federally at that particular time, and he shunned the advice that was offered by the Liberals and the Tories and he ran provincially as a Social Credit candidate , and of course he became elected. And of course the story was as the Honourable Minister of Labour well knows, who was sitting here at that time, that many con sidered that he would be the next leader of the Social Credit Party in the province at that time .

When he was not busy, of course, in his duti es of public life he carried on a very successful business in Dauphin . Mr . Speaker, I'm most pleased to be given the opportunity to bring the condolences to the family on behalf of our party of this great Manit oban . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR . G . JOHNSTO N: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Liberal Party I would like to be associated with the condolence motion on behalf of the late Mr . William Bullmore from Dauphin . It' s quite obvious from the list of organizations and societies that the First Minister referred to that Mr.

Bullmore belonged to, that he obviously gave a great deal of his time to public service in the province, and because of that he is quite well-known as one of Manitoba 's leading citizens and he will be long remembered by those he has left behind that knew him . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland . MR . FROESE : Mr. Speaker, I too wish to asso ciate myself with the motion that is before us . Mr. Bullmore entered this Legislature as a Social Creditor and sat in this House from 1953 till 195 8.

As has already been mentioned he was very active and served in various ways in many different organizations . H� was also the first President of the Urban Associati on

March 5, 1973 253 MOTIONS OF CONDOLENC ES (MR . FROESE cont'd) •.••. in Manitoba, and I think this already indicates and speaks for itself . Not having known him personally as well as some other members, and especially some of my colleagues in my party, who say that he was very likeable and represented his con stituency well indeed, I certainly want to extend condolenc es to his wife and family of one son, one daughter and son -in-law . MR . SPEAKER: In accepting and agreeing to the motion will the honourab le members please rise for a moment of silen ce . The Honourable First Minister . MR . SCHREYER: Mr .

Speaker , if the late alderman MLA H. B. Scott , Hank Scott , were alive today, or rather if he were somehow in a position to direct and orchestrate the commemorative exercise that we are having in this Chamber now in his memory, I rather suspect that he would insist that it be carried out with levity, not with frivolity but with levity, with humour and with a good deal of controversy spiced into it .

While I did not know him personally in the most direct sense, nevertheless I do recall on one occasion sitting as a young fellow in the gallery observing the events, the procedures of this House, I believe it was in the year 1955 or '56 . The late Alderman H. B. Scott , Hank Scott, was then an MLA for the multi-member constituency of Winnipeg Centre, and of course he was a man of great publicity and was widely known . In the period of 1943 to 1958 he served on the council of the City of Winnipeg and I believe in this Legislative As sembly for much of that same period of time .

It is not entirely clear to me whether he was at any given point in time an Independent -- he sat here as an Independent-Conse rvative MLA or as a straight Cons ervative member, but whichever way it was it did not prevent him from expressing his personal views in a most direct and at times outrageous ways . I do recall on that one occasion already referred to, Sir, that he stood up in his place opposite and exchanged a few words with someone sitting right next to him , or just in front of him perhaps, and that of course, nothing much was made of it because that was Hank Scott as everyone knew him .

He did take strong positions and vocal positions on certain important matters of public policy in the decades of the 1940s and '50s , perhaps the most notable of which was the process of decision-making relative to Plan C, whether or not Manitoba should develop a province-wide Hydro system including the City Hydro system, and whether it ought in addition to that to encompass the operation of the natural gas utility then known as Greater Winnipeg Gas .

He took a very vocal and active role in the campaign on that particular issue and he merged victorious, you might say . l 'm not intimately familiar with the details of that particular episode of pub lic policy debate but it is my impression that if not completely he emerged, at least in major degree, with a sense of having been vindicated . For subsequent years, and I'm sure Alderman Scott would , the late Alderman H. B. Scott would understand completely if I were to express the view now that perhaps many people in the province have different views and that the changing of time requires changing of policy .

I'm not sure if he were still alive today whether he would still , for example, take as firm a po sition on that issue as he did in 1952 -53. The late Alderman H. B. Scott , I should mention as well, served on the Manitoba Censor Board from 1958 to 1970 and I'm sure he would , given his sense of humour and of political vitriol , want me to mention the fact that he did serve on that board even for a period of time under the present administration .

Whether he would have ever admitted to having served in any capacity whatso ever under an admini stration such as our social democratic administration, of course I think the answer is pretty obvious; nevertheless he did serve and to that extent , of course, our paths and time overlapped . So , Mr . Speaker , it is with some sense of history that I move, seconded by the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition, that this House convey to the family of the late Alderman H. B.

Scott , who served as a member of the Legislative As sembly of Manitoba, its sincere sympathy in their bereavement and its appreciation of his devotion to duty in a useful life of active community and public service, and that Mr . Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this resolution to the family . MOTION presented . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . MR . SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q. C. (Leader of the Opposition) (River Heights) : Mr. Speaker, I rise to second the inotion of condolence. I knew Hank Scott . It 's easy to recite the chrono logical events of Hank Scott 's life .

He was 73 at the time of his dealth . He was a member of

254 March 5, 1973 MOTIONS OF CONDOLENCES (MR . SPIVAK, coµ.t•i;I) •I ••••• a family whose political history went back a long way in the annals of Manitoba and Winnipeg and he really called himself a professional politician. What is difficult to describe , Mr. Speaker, and the First Minister has touched on this, was his spirit and the contribution he made to the life of our province through his life as a private businessman and as an elected public servant serving the people of Winnipeg and the people of Manitoba .

Hank Scott almost owned the title of "disturber." How many times he would dig in his heels and take on all comers to make his point, and the i.ncredible thing , Mr. Speaker, is that even in spite of all odds many times he won and he would be exonerated in the positions he took, for many times they were the correct postures demanded of a public servant dedicated to protecting the rights in interest of the people he represented. As a young man, Hank Scott worked for Eat ons and Gaults here in Winnipeg before taking on the position of the Manitoba Secretary of the Retail Merchants Asso ciation.

It was in this position that businessmen persuaded him to run for Alderman in Winnipeg. He didn•t win the first time out ; as a matter of fact he ran several times , but eventually he convinced Garnet Coulter to run for mayor and with the resulting vacuum in Winnipeg Centre he obta ined a seat on the City Council. His interest in politics came naturally from a great uncle who was Winnipeg•s mayor in 1877 and '78 and from another famous Manitoban by the name of Thomas Scot t.

In 1953 Hank Scott was elected to the Manitoba Legislature and served in these Chambers until 1958, As the F irst Minister has indicated, Hank Scott probably stood alone during most of his time in politics , but the years are proving that his positions were taken in the best interests of Ma nitobans and he will be long remembered in this House and in the province as Winnipeg•s policeman in this Legislature., ever seeking to represent the interests of Winnipeg in this Legislature. So, Mr. Speaker, let the record show that all members share in the memory of H.

B. (Hank) Scott , a former esteemed member of this House. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assi niboia. MR . STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia) : Mr. Speaker, I wish to speak on behalf of the members of our party on this condolence motion. I had the pleasure to know Mr. Scott on a personal bas is. He had a great interest in the city and in this community. He was also involved in many sports activities in this city, in all kinds of them, and was a strong supporter of sports.

He was an outspoken person, as the First Minister has said, and if there ever was a controversial issue he was ei ther on one side or on the other side - everybody knew where he stood, He had a very long record as a public servant and , as controversial as he was, he still had many many friends. So, Mr. Speaker, I wish to associate the Liberal members with this condolence motion . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhi neland . MR . FROESE : Mr, Speaker, I too would like to associate myself in expressing condolences to the family of the late Hank Scott .

As has already been pointed out he considered himself a professional politician, and apparently when filing nomination papers this was his occupation so that he believed in it firmly. I'm ju st wondering how many of us consider our selves professional politicians herein this House at this time. Those of us that didn•t know him personally certainly we knew of him and got to know him through the press because he was quoted so often and, as has already been pointed out , he was a· very strong supporter especially of City Hydro and in that whole matter that was ••• at that time .

So I certainly appreciate a man of this type who stands up for his convictions and who serves the public in the way as he has done . MR . SPEAKER: In accepting and agreeing to the motion of condolence would the honourable members all please rise for a moment of silence.

March 5, 1973 255 ORDERS OF THE DAY - THRONE. SPEECH DEBA TE MR . SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Flin Flon and the amendment thereto by the Leader of the Opposition . The Honourable Member for Pembina has fourteen minutes left. MR . GEORGE HENDERSON (Pembina) : Thank you, Mr . Speaker. When it came 5:30 Friday I believe I was talkir:g about the development corporations and the local development cor porations are doing a tremendous job, but I have a feeling that ther e's an awful of high-priced people here in the Norquay Building that isn't given enough help .

There 's too many consultants in that group and not enough workers. You could say there's too many Indians and not -- too many Chiefs and not enough Indians . Regarding the border crossings at Emerson straight south of Winnipeg here, we have a 24 -hour port, in fact there's two ports there that stay open on the basis of 24 hours a day, and there's no other port all along that border that stays open 24 hours a day except Boissevain and that 's only for four months of the year .

Now we people in the southern part of Manitoba, especially along by Morden and Carman and La Riviere where they have the ski resort and they have the other attractio ns , feel that we'd like to see one of these ports stay open longer because across the border at Langdon they have the missle site and there's a four million dollars a month payroll there. Now these people have spare time as well as work time and they 'd like to come over to Manitoba and take

part in dif ferent things , but when they want to go to Winnipeg even, they have to go around by Emerson everytime , they can't cross up down through Morden and Carmen.

And this is why we're asking for an extension of time at least on a temporary basis at some of these ports, and in particular we 're concerned about the road between La Riviere and Hannah , a distance of about 18 miles, which is just a gravel road yet and it 's a terrible road; it doesn't make tourists feel like coming over there at all because between the dust on the road and the stones that keep flying from the vehicles it's really a road that 's not very safe to travel . I wonder what 's happened to the PFRA program .

This is a program that we shared between the provincial governments and the federal government in past years . It used to have to do with putting in stock watering dams and dugouts . It was a program that was a very useful program and a very necessary program for the people in the livestock business . However, I do know that one of the projects that was on the books , you might say, in 1968 - the McEachern Dam - that there's been people in to see about it and we never seem to get anything do ne .

Now I know it's a sharing program between Ottaw a and Manitoba but what 's happened to this program and why can't we get something done ? You know, we 're always told it 's a federal responsibility but when it comes to Hog Marketing Boards or Commission£> or something we always seem to be able to get together with the other provinces and Ottaw a and come through with what they want .

And it makes me think sometimes that the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, well I'd prefer this department was under the Minister of Agriculture really because I think he does a little bit more of hi s homework, it seems to me that the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources has just turned out to be the Minister of Mines over there -- I mean the mines up here -- and he doesn •t think much about what's going on at local level . At the same time I'd like to mention the Pembina Dam which is something that 's been talked about a lot in past years and still nothing seems to be done .

They're talking about doing something about it again across the line but we never hear about Manitoba's promotion .P eople down around ther e, the Development Corporations, they send in resolutions and they 're all for it and we don 't get no action from the provincial people .

And we have such a fine fertile soil down in that area that 's so suited to irrigation and that and there's a lot of special crops grown in there already and many more could be grown; in fact you've got your cannery down there now in Morden and if you want this cannery to be assured of success you should so something about some type of irrigation for some of that land because you cannot have choice quality if you don't have water at certain times . It seems when you depend on a natur e you either have a feast or a famine and that 's not good . You must have choice quality to be assu!'ed of a market .

Now that 's about all! have to say except that I read the Manitoba Co- operator an awful lot: and it 's a good little farm paper and there's a lot of good things in there and it's not written out too long- windedly, like it is in some other articles; one little thing I read in there when I was looking through it this morning is , what was wrong with politic s today .

And it was written in there that, you know, these are· the days when we 're talking about political patronage and it says that the ND P are getting all the jobs, the Con servatives are getting the axe, and no one has taken down the digns - the posters .

256 March 5, 19 73 THRONE SPEECH DEBATE MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Matthews. MR. WALLY JOHANNSON (St. Matthews): Mr. Speaker, in speaking on the Throne Speech I would first of all like to congratulate you on your resumption this session of the Chair in this House. It's an onerous job at times - - you have to deal with rather unruly members - however we're glad to see you again in the Chair presiding over this Assembly. I would like to congratulate the mover of the motion in reply to the Speech from the Throne. He is a very honest, blunt, individual and he gave a very powerful speech.

It would have been a good deal more powerful only the Rules of this Assembly prevented him from saying some of the things he would have liked to have said, and in the manner he would have liked to have said them. I'd like to congratulate also the seconder for his ·contribution to the Throne Speech debate. He gave his usual powerful effort. He was as dominant as he usually is in his role as Whip in forcing discipline among the members of the government caucus, who are also very unruly at times. MOTIONS OF CONDOLENCES (Cont'

d) I would like to extend my condolences to the family of the late Gordon Beard, and I would like to also express my appreciation of tre service he gave to his constituency and to this House. He was always a very able spokesman for the north; he was always a very honest and sincere man, even though we disagreed in terms of our political ideals I nevertheless had a good deal of admiration for Mr. Beard. I would also like to extend condolences to the family of the late Doc Thompson. I was going to speak on the motion but I seemed to have got lost in the shuffle.

I knew Doc Thompson personally, in fact I was six years old when he first tended me when I was sick. I later got to know him while I was teaching at Riverton for a period of four years, and Doc Thompson was a very admirable man. He was really of the last of a breed, the breed of the general country practitioner, and his memory will be revered in Riverton and in the surrounding area for many years to come. He really embodied all of the good qualities I think that that town has, and he was a man Vlho will long be remembered.

He frequently took no payment for his services - this is a tradition that seems to have died out now. I would like to tell an anecdote which illustrates the quality of the man. This happened I think in the year 192 8. Doc Thompson had just got a new Model A Ford and a young girl suffered an accident over in Hecla; she feli down and gashed her lip very badly and was bleeding quite badly. Her parents were alarmed so they called Doc Thompson in Riverton.

This was in the springtime and of course the ice, the lake ice in the springtime is very tricky and dangerous, but in sp ite of this Doc Thompson immediately consented to come and he drove out to Hecla. Halfway there his car went through the ice and of course this was a brand new Model A. When he got to Hecla the young girl was playing happily, no longer bleeding, and of course her parents were very very embarrassed; they felt that all of this had been in vain, the girl was okay, and Doc's car had gone through the ice.

However Doc stitched her up and reassured them, told them that he was very glad that he'd come because she was a girl after all and he wouldn't want her to be disfigured for life and therefore he felt that the trip certainly had been worthwhile - by the way his car was rescued later. But this was the quality of the man. He had a sense of service which is very very rare. He also embodied the tradition of hospitality in a community like Riverton. At one time Tommy Douglas came out to speak in Riverton and of course Doc Thompson's political ideas were very much opposed to those of Tommy Douglas.

Douglas held a meeting and during the meeting one of the citizens of Riverton, who was somewhat the worse for drink, attempted to climb up onto the stage and interrupt Mr. Douglas. Well Doc Thompson stepped in as a peacemaker and maintained order and this was really very much in character. Doc Thompson was proud of the tradition of hospitality that the town of Riverton had and to him, it would have sullied the good name of Riverton for an incident like this to have ruined the meeting.

The last year or two Doc Thompson I understand was writing his memoirs and I really hope, I really hope that he did finish the memoirs before he so unfortunately passed away. THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (Cont'

d) I would like to make a few comments on the Throne Speech. I think the Throne Speech

March 5, 1973 257 THRONE SPEEC H DEBATE (MR, JOHANNSON cont•d) ... embodies a couple of qualities ofthis government.I t embodies the idea of humanity first - - contrary to what the Hono urable Member for Crescen twoodhas said, I think the Throne Speech very clearly puts humanity first, It will be of great benefit to the people in my constituency --I happen to have a constituency in the centre of Winnipeg where there are a large number of senior citizens and working people .

These are not people who own$50 , OOO hom es , they are people generally of lower moderate income , and this Throne Speech and the programs in it will be of great benefit to them. The Throne Speech also embodies the quality of responsibility, It's a responsible kind of Throne Speech. And whUe on the topic of responsibility I would like to refer to a Free Press

Article that was publish ed in the newspaper a couple of days ago which stated that I was one of five caucus members on the government side who were opposed to Churchill River diversion. Now this kind of news gathering is very strange to me; no one from the Free Press talked to me; no one attempted to find out what my position was; yet these two reporters apparently felt completely free to print a rather unequivocal statement that I was opposed to ChurchiU River diversion -- (Interjection) -- That is responsibility. While on that same topic of responsibility, Mr.

Speaker, I want to comment at some length on the contribution of the Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party, his contribution to the Throne Speech Debate, and I think I would like to spend some time care fully looking at what to him is the most important issue o:� all facing us , and that is, as he calls it, the renogotia tion of Manitoba 's place in Confoden�ion. I would like to examine it carefully just to see how responsible a position it is, and I'm going to go through a series of quotes from his speech.

The first quote: "For many years now, many of us on this side " -- and the Leader of the Liberal Party of course isn't in his seat, this is unfortunate, it wiU be much less fun. "For many years now many of us on this side, unfortunately no one from the government side of this House, have been insisting on a new deal fo r Manitoba and for Western Canada. We have patiently written, travelled, spoken across this country, attempting to gain sympathy for the legitimate grievances of Manitoba and the West, and in recent months the major change has oc curred - Canada is listening. " Page 71 Hansard.

This is one of the most audacious statements that one could imagine. What the Honour able Member for Wolseley is doing, is assuming that in Ottawa there is a new attitude towards the West, and he's taking credit for himself ar:d his friends for this alleged change in attitude, The reason for the change in attitude, if in fact one exists, is not because of the activities of the Pro vincial Liberals; if such a change exists, it is because the Liberal Party has all but been destroyed in Western Canada. A MEMBER: Hear, hear. MR. JOH ANNSON: Since the defeat of the St.

Laurent government in 1957 there has been no prairie Liberal leader who has been capable and able to represent the prairie west within the Federal Liberal Party. The closest the Liberals came was when Hazen Argue and Hazen Argue - it would take a brave man to claim that that particular experiment was a success.

The mere fact that the Liberal Leader claims to· have patiently written, travelled, spoken across the country, attempting to gain sympathy for his position, is simply an admission of his own ineffectuality within the Federal Liberal Party, The blunt facts are that the western Liberal leaders have as little weight in Ottawa as they have with the electors of their own provinces, m d they have very little there. Second quote; and this is a dilly: "It all goes back to the Confederation Table in Charlottetown in 1867 when Canada was born. " You know, Mr.

Speaker, as an ex-history teacher, a teacher of Canadian history, I find th at statement really incredible. The Charlottetown Conference of course was in 1864, not in 1867; the decisive conference in working out confederation was held in Quebec City in 186 4, not in Charlottetown. Quote No. 3 by the Liberal Leader: "The Fathers of Confederation of the country began and designed a system which was to be a federal scheme, a partnership of ten equal partici pating states. "This is simple and utter nonsense.

The Fathers of Confederation never envisaged ten provinces, and they never envisaged ten equal participating states. Fourth quote from the Liberal Leader: "The structure that was foisted upon the western provinces when we came in did not have anyone speaking on our behalf in the bargaining and as a result we entered a situation which has shaped the disparity and economic colonialism which

258 March 5, 19 73 THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (MR. JORANNSON cont'd) .•.•. we have endured for a hundred years in the west. 11 As far as Manitoba is concerned, this is utter nonsense again. Manitoba became a pro vince in 187 0 under the aegis of the Manitoba Act which was negotiated between the provis ional government of Louis Riel and the Federal government of Sir John A. Macdonald.

Anyone who has compared the terms of the Act wfth the provis ional government of Rupertsland and the terms of the Manitoba Act knows that - in fact, the Manitoba input into the const itutional struc ture under which it has lived was very cons iderable and the Honourable Member for Ruperts land is aware of that fact although his -- I shouldn 't say his leader, the Leader of the Liberal Party doesn't seem to be, doesn't seem to be aware of that. That is not to say that what was worked out in 1870 was either an enduring or an adequate arrangement.

The sugges tion, how ever, that Manitobans had no say in what was worked out is simple nonsense. Fifth quote: "Together these two provinces, Ontario and Quebec, control more than 60 perc ent of the seats in the House of Commons, more than 74 percent of the seats in the Senate, and a far higher percentage than that in the business and labour establishment of Canada. " Repres entation in the Hous e of Commons is of course based on population. Apparently this is the system that's not palatable to Mr. Asper, that is, the sy stem of repres entation by population.

However, it's a recognized and democratic arrangement in a popular ass embly, and it is one that is used in most democratic countries in the world. It is very difficult to replace in fact in terms of a viable alternative. The suggestion that more than 74 percent of the seats in the Senate are from thes e two central provinces, that is Quebec and Ontario, is, of course, total nonsense. Repres entation in the Senate is regional; there are 24 senators from Ontario, 24 from Quebec, 24 from the Maritimes , 24 from the West and 6 from Newfoundland. The total, Mr.

Speaker, is 100; 48 of these are from Ontario and Quebec, therefore the per centage of Senators in the Federal Senate from Quebec and Ontario is 48 percent. Forty-ei ght percent, Mr. Speaker, not 74 and this man has a reputat ion as a tax consultant. This is not to deny the complete ineffectuality of the Senate. However, its ineffectuality has nothing to do with its regional repres entation. The Senate is ineffective becaus e it is filled with bagmen, with worn out provincial leaders, with kept men appointed by the old line political parties who have cynically abused the system for the last 100 years.

When the Liberal Leader follows in the footsteps of his predeces sor, Mr. Molgat, he will undoubtedly receive his reward from Ottawa after the next provincial election, and we can look forward to seeing Mr. -- pardon me, the Honourable Member from Wolseley -- preach ing his constitutional nons ense in the Senate. Sixth quote from the Honourable Member. He says : " We have come to a moment of truth in Canadian histor y where Canada is list ening.

We did not arrive at this moment, those of us who have been sp eaking on this issu e for the past decade; we did not arrive at this entire ly without some bitternes s, violence, and at times, perhaps , even fatal pressu res being existed against the bonds of confederation its elf. " It would be extremely interesting to know what the Honourable Leader of the Liberal Pa rty means by this particular statement. Is he advocating the use of violence and attempted se cess ion from the Dominion of Canada. If this is what he means, he should say it, frankly and honestly.

The people of Manitoba have a right to know whether Mr. Asper is in favour of the use of violence against his federal leader and his federal party's government in Ottawa .

Seventh quote by the Liberal leader: " We insist that we in the West who represent 40 percent of the provinces of Canada must therefore have 40 perc ent of the political power and 40 percent of the influence in national decis ion-making; and if that requires new immigration policies to deflect the population to the underpopulated regions, a new industrial str ategy to cr eate jobs for those people when they come to the under-populated regions, then that is the price Canada must pay for confederation. " That Mr. Speaker is a marvellous statement and I hope it will be wi dely reprinted throughout the country.

Some const itutional historians give Liberal Robert Baldwin the credit for having invented responsible government. This , Mr. Speaker, is probably the most innovative idea that has turned up within the Canadian and Liberai mind since. Instead of repres entation by population, we are to have repres entation by political jurisdiction, and we are to have this done on a math ematical basis, on a mathematical formula. We are for example to have from Wester n Canada 40 perc ent of the decis ion of the influence in national decision-making.

I take it that we can extrapolate this approach province by province, and that the Province of Manitoba should there fore have ten perce nt of the influence in national decis ion making, ten percent. It would seem important to know in more detail where the Liberal Leader thinks things

March 5, 1973 259 THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (MR. JOHANNSON cont'd) ..... are missing; what for example is the gap between Manitoba's current influence in the Federal Cabinet and ten percent? Do James Ri chardson and the Honour able Manitoba Leader of the Liberal Party give us half of one percent of influence in national decision-making? Do-they give us one and a half percent? This must be an important point because preswnably the Liberal Leader feels that things like influence in national decision making can be quantified and region alized. Well it's obviously true that regional influence is important.

I find 'the process of quanti fication is somewhat difficult. If we are to have a new constitution that depends on this kind of arrangement, we should have a detailed analysis of how it is to be effected and how it currently operates. It would also be_ very interesting to note that Mr. Asper does give some lip service to representation by population. He suggests that if new immigration -- if that requires new immigration policies to deflect the population to the underpopulated regions then that is the price Canada must pay for Confederation.

Does the Liberal Leader believe that each province should have equal population? Prince Edward Island under his scheme is supposed to have ten percent of the influence in national decision-making. Are we to have policies that deflect ten percent of the population of Canada to Prince Edward Island? That's an intriguing thought; it seems to flow from his logic. It seems that this should be spelled out in more detail for the people of Manitoba and also for the people of Prince Edward Island, seeing they should be affec ted by it.

Another quote by the Liberal Leader: - "We have called, and again called for a new poli tical structure in Canada, one where the Senate of Canada, as in other great federalisms, would become an effective body and would have representation of equal members from each of the ten provinces a policy which has been adopted by the Liberal Party in Canada. " This is an unusual suggestion. We do have some historical precedents in Canada.

Under the old union the Upper House was elected between 1856 and 1867 The fact that the Upper House was elected at that time made virtually no difference to the functioning of government. Under a scheme of responsible government the ministry can be responsible to only one chamber and that means that the other chamber is virtually totally useless. The real lesson to learn from the relationship between a responsible government and an Upper Chamber is that an Upper Chamber is unnecessary under our system of responsible government, and that such Chamber should be abolished.

This is the policy; it's long been the policy of the New Democratic Party, and when we are elected federally one of the first actions we will take will be to abolish that second chamber of bagmen, worn out cabinet ministers, worn out provincial leaders appointed by the Liberal and Conservative parties. A MEMBER: Hear, hear, hear .. MR. JOHANNSON: The suggestion that an elective Upper House is now a policy of the Federal Liberal Party is really marvellous. The Federal Liberal Party in 1919 adopted Medicare as a national policy.

If we are to judge the Federal Liberal Party on its past per formance, we should comfortably look forward to an elective Upper House in perhaps the second decade of the 21st century -- and as my honourable seatmate here says, there will be no Liberals left, so that will be a bit difficult. A ninth quote by the Liberal Leader: "The First Minister being a former teacher in political science should know that the renegotiation of Confederation must be with the ten pro vinces." The real point is that because the First Minister is a former teacher of political science, he knows better than to accept such nonsense.

The debates in the nature of Confederation, the debate over the so-called compact theory, is an old one in Canadian history. Constitutional authorities however, are virtually unanimous on the question: Confederation is not an instru- · ment of ten provinces that can meet together, pass resolutions, and change the constitution. That has never happened, that never has been the way of constitutional amendment in Canada, and it obviously never will. The chief motivation in a system in which Confederation is seen as a pact between the provinces is that of reactionaries.

It is a position adopted by men like Duplessis, Mitch Hepburn, and Patullo of B. C. What happens under these circumstances is that each province argues that because of the alleged compact it has a veto over constitutional change; the result is virtually no constitutional change. Had this kind of arrangement been in effect in the past there would have been virtually no constitutional change, and this would have been most unfortunate to the progress of the Dominion and very unfortunate to the progress of Manitoba.

260 March 5, 1973 THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (MR. JOHANNSON cont'

d) A tenth quote from the Liberal Leader: "If there is a Liberal government in this province after the next election we will call an all-party conference to se ttle and negotiate through a legislative committee the position on the renegotiation of Confederation that Manitoba has to take. Now Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Liberal Party gave us a long speech and I'm only examining one very small part of his speech, because there are so many holes in the speech that it would take days to expose all of them.

Are we to take fr<'>m this remark that the points about Manitoba's place in Confederation, which the honourable member made so absolutely, are not to be taken seriou sly? The honourable member has said-very absolutely, certain things about Manitoba's place in Confederation, but now he says that these are all up for negotiation after the next election. Where does the honourable member stand? I hope some day he tells us .

Eleventh quote: "If we Liberals form a government in this province, we would then call a full ten-premier conference to be held here in Winnipeg to begin the process of renegotiation of Confederation in order to eliminate inequities we suffer under the present system. " He goes on to say on the same page: "Ottawa cannot change the constitution of Canada without the. consent of the ten provinces . This is something for which provincial consent is required. " Page 75 Hansard.

This is not only wrong in fact, but as even the most elementary knowledge of Canadian history would indicate to the leader of the Liberal Party, that is, assu ming that he sometimes reads Canadian histo ry, but it's bad in conception. The pact theory, which the Liberal Leader is arguing, has traditionally been used by the premiers of the wealthiest provinces to make constitutional change difficult in order to protect their interests, that is, the interests of the provinces like Ontario and Quebec.

The major ass ault on the pact theory, it should be noted, came from the Liberal politici ans in response to the tragedy of the depress ion which placed the provinces in a weakened position and required heavy federal intervention. Surely the Liberal Leader knows that the most powerful opponent of the pact theory during the past generation was Norman McLeod Rogers, Liberal Minister of Defence during the early months of the se cond World War. His concern was that constitutional rigidity of the kind Mr.

Asper is proposing wherein each premier has a veto over constitutional change, should never happen in this country. Rogers ' concern was that the Federal Government should be able to assi st weaker provinces and to provide reasonable kinds of financial equalization in the interests of the weaker and poorer provinces. Out of the depres sion of the 1930's came the Rowell-Sirois report which recommended a larger role in national life for the Federal Government in the interests of the poorer provinces and which was opposed to this pact theory nonsense.

Surely the Liberal Leader knows that the strongest supporters of the establis hment of this comm iss ion, and of its findings, were two of his predecessors in this province, the Honourable John Bracken and the Honourable Stuart Garson. The concern of thes e men was that Manitoba function within a viable confederation, or federalism, that depended on a strong central government, financial justice for the pro vinces, and an ability on the part of the provinces that they be able to function with dignity within their spheres of jurisdiction.

Thes e men, and especially Premier Garson, sh ould be given full credit for the valuable work they did on behalf of the province in this area. Professor Mo rton, W. L. Morton, one of the great Conservative theoretici ans in this country, makes this point in his History of Manitoba, the good work of earlier governments of Manitoba sh ould in all honesty be recognized. The wartime coalition did good se rvice for the Province of Manitoba, especially in the area of dominion-provincial financial. Thes e men knew the dangers of the compact theory.

Rather, they worked with the Federal Government and through a process of sane and rational negotia tion, obtained a better deal for Manitoba within Confederation. It might be useful if the Liberal Leader could read a little bit about the pasts of our province. He would then know that the way to a healthier and a better Canada is not through a form of constitutional compact roulette. He would know that the provinces like Manitoba do not obtain a better deal by increasing and entrenching the powers d the wealthier provinces.

When reading the speech of the Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party, one is encouraged to ask the question: What kind of a Liberal is he ? He's obvious ly not a Trudeau Liberal: he implies the necess ity of the use of force against the government of his federal leader. It is abundantly clear from recent statements in the press that he's not a Campbell Liberal; it would seem abundantly clear that he's not in the tradition of Federal Liberal Leaders on the

March 5, 1973 26 1 THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (MR, JOHANNSON cont'd) •• ••• Canadian constitut ion; he is not a Garson Liberal. It is pretty cle ar what the Liberal Leader is: he is a cynical and demagogic Manitoba Liberal who, because he has no viable policy of his own, is attempting to take the errors and insens itivities of-his Federal Liberal Government and place the blame on the Government of Manitoba. It's a strange procedure, very strange.

It would take a rash and a foolish man to argue that the Canadian Confederation does not need to be overhauled in many respec ts ; but it would take an even more rash and foolish man to expect to find adequate answers in the confrontation st yle, and hopelessly dated const itutional nonsense, of the Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. This man, this man is pres enting himself as a viable alternative to the Government of Manitoba. Let the people of Manitoba judge him and the more he talks , the les s chance he has of ever being consid ered a viable alternative. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Ve rendrye. MR. BARKMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rather feel a little bit ashamed with the lady member also standing up but I hope -- I think her chance of getting the floor later on are better than mine, so I shall be a little bit selfish and try for it anyway. Mr. Speaker, I wish to congrat ulate, the mover, the Member for Flin Flan, and the se conder of cours e, the Member for Radisson, in applying their efforts.

While I may not com pletely agree with what they had to say, I think that they were si ncere, and esp ecially the Me mber for Flin Flan is dedicated in his work, in his effort, and I want to congratulate him si ncerely. I also wish to congratulate you, Mr. Speaker. I don't really know why we have to keep on rubbing it in to -- it's bad enough I think to be the Speaker of the Hous e but I am si ncere in wis hing you the best the rest of the season. Mr. Speaker, I would also like to congratulate our new Clerk of the House, Mr. Jack Reeves, who has had quite a bit of experience with the former Clerk Mr.

Charland Prud'homme. I don't really know what we're going to do on thes e commiss ions when we go out on some of the committee meetings without some of his cognac along, but perhaps we can do without it in some manner or some way. I am not going to say very much concerning my colleague to the left here, whose condo lence motion I believe will come up tomorrow and I do want to say though that it was a very sad day for me to hear of his pass ing away and I know that members in here are missin g him sadly and I hope to say more on that tomorrow. Mr.

Speaker, we have before us a very tricky, very shrewd Speech from the Throne.

I can hardly se e that if members during the next three or four months are going to pres ent any kind of a resolution unless the Hous e leader is going to be very benevolent; I don't se e how we are going to get too many resolutions in on the basis of somewhere it's intimated, or hinted, that somethizg may or may not, or will be done, and I think that could perhaps hold back quite a few resolutions ; and by the tone of the Speech from the Throne, I think these resolutions are neces sary for this government, or for any other government, I think ideas spring forth through these resolutions and I'm sure that, I hope they will let as many pass as at all possible.

Mr. Speaker, personally I cannot agree with some members that this is an elec tion Throne Speech, but I do believe that finally some improvements that were perhaps, some of them, quite long overdue have been initiated, or at least the intention is to initiate them -- I shall say more about that later on.

But I am of the opinion that with the government receiv ing higher tax revenues today than ever before in the history of Manitoba, plus more federal grants, and for that reason I don't necessarily wish that we have an election immediately as long as some of these grants keep on coming, and I hope they will for the province, but I think they are in the making because more negotiations seem to be pending and that I hope will bring forth some extra grants from the Federal Government to the province.

I am of the opinion that we will, and that we must, receive further aid in various departments such as Education and Health, and surely we must expect some further tax cuts and that is one of the reas ons I believe there will be more forthcoming and I do not for one expect an election immediately, and I can't really call it a Speech from the Throne for election reasons. Mr.

Speaker, I have sometimes wanted to, and I shall try again -- I think I would like to suggest perhaps a Throne Speech from the rural and urban municipalities -- an opportunity whereby they could inform their citizens of annual plans and allow the citize ns to more define their wish es and discuss their problems mutually. I have often thought if this would not be poss ible because as it se ems now the municipalities basically only pres ent their briefs annually,

262 . March 5, 1973 THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (MR. BARKMAN cont'd) .•... and I don't think the outcome is what it ought to be - the problems that exist between municipalities and provinces -- and I'm not suggesting that relations are not good, that is not the point at all, but I would like to see an annual or perhaps even a bi-annual conference, and not just the brief with the municipalities and the provinces, so that some of their problems could be solved. Mr.

Speaker, I want to congratulate this government where congratulations are in order, and I feel they are in order as far as congratulating this government for unveiling their health and social aid program. I don't intend to mention all of them but I am particularly happy to see the extension of insurance coverage on personal and nursing home care. I do rot have to remind members opposite that not too long ago, approximately two years ago, we presented a resolution in this direction and I'm very happy that they have accepted, or that they feel at this time that this is a must.

And perhaps if you talk of retaining sume amount, or call it a deterrent if you like, I'm not so much against that. I think it should not be - some money should be left with the old age people. They have the same desires to buy a few presents for their grandchildren, and clothes, and what have you, but I think a certain amount is quite in order because I always seem to think of the two old ladies -- I wish not to mention their names, but if I have to I could-- one of them, both of them inherited approximately $20, 000 some 20 years ago.

Well the one lady was a bit of a swinger, or whatever you wish to call her, and she spent this $20, 000 quite readily and quite easily. Today both of these ladies, and both not married, are in the nursing care home. The one saved, tried to save every penny she could and is now paying roughly around $535. 00 per month, where the other one is having the same care, the same opportunities, and probably has been around the world twice, so I think one of them is quite in order.

Also I am very interested -- (Interjection) -- Yes she is still paying and possibly will until this law comes into effect, but at least there is hope. now. Also, I am very interested that the home care services in supporting families. We have a lot of families --I don't know, I guess it's the same in just about every constituency, but I know in my constituency it's even tradition that some of the children feel that they have to look after their parents and can't really afford to.

I note a particular case when I still happened to be Mayor of the Town of Steinbach about, oh, about three or four years ago, this certain lady about 50 years old and she was looking after her mother who was aoout 85 or 86 years old, for about four years, and this old lady was completely bedridden, and this daughter of hers looked after her and she could absolutely not afford to do this.

And I'm sure we're all aware that if thi s lady had really gone to the hospital where she belonged it could have probably in our area cost the taxpayers around 46 or 47 dollars per day, where here if this lady had received per- haps $10. 00 per day is all that is needed. So I want to congratulate the government on some of these aids, or some of these health and social aid programs.

I think it is quite in order that drugs, people should be helped to pay their drugs after a certain amount is spent; and I was particularly happy to see that families would be supported where they were willing to help the mentally ill and the mentally retarded; I think this is a step in the right direction. · Mr. Speaker, I want to turn briefly to some of the farm and industrial programs planned.

I hope the Throne Speech is quite definite in naming certain items that they are going to do, and then just about three-quarters of the rest of the speech they're going to be planning and studying and reviewing, and I hope that they will not stop planning or reviewing come election day. I hope whoever gets elected -- (Interjection) -- whoever gets elected in the next election wi ll keep on taking action and not just studying, and not just planning. and not just reviewing.

Mr� Speaker, I was particularly happy to see that there was concern, and I couldn't help but think of the former member for Churchill when I saw that a continued improvement and expansion of local and long distance telephone communications in the north -- I think this is a must and I don't intend to elaborate, but I do want to say that this is not just a must for the north, certainly for the north, but it goes further than that.

If we want to stop what the Premier called the other day out-migration that has been going on for the last couple of decades, I be lieve we can start and put our telephone rates, and even our service, on one of the top priorities as far as helping to keep people in the rural areas instead of moving into Winnipeg, and before we know it too many of them on welfare. Now I know that this is a good place to start to narrow our gaps between the urban and the rural people.

We seem to agree when rural taxpayers helped subsidize the cost of the purchasing of Manitoba buses - - and I think the City of Winnipeg would also agree to help somewhat subsidize the telephone rates that are in effect today, and I

March 5, 197 3 THRONE SPEECH DE BATE 263 (MR. BARKMAN cont'd) ..... do se e it as one of the priori ties .

I was surprised to see or hear the other day when the Honourable Member for Osborne who is also on this telephone board - and I do not know what kind of a job he's doing, I imagine he's doing a fair enough job -- but I felt rather hurt when he said that he didn't know anything about farmers and wasn't really interested in that part -- he was dis cussing something else -- I don't really hope that he meant that he was not interested in farmers at all, but this is a aad day if a board member on the Telephone Board does not even want to be reached or talk to farmers when they are in need.

And while I'm on the Minister of Highways Department -- who does not happen to be here, but he usually is in the House; it's not too often that he isn't - I think that I would like to make another plea to the Minister not to forget the importance of improvem ent of Provincial Road 210 when we had a delegation in - - he knows the difficulties that the people of La Broquerie and the people of Ste.

Anne's are having, and I hope that he is going to consider their plea, because I think they pres ented a strong cas e; it's a matter of perhaps the capital cost of the short road that they're as king would probably cost no more than the maintenance of a tricky type of soil that doesn't seem to stand up, and I hope he's considering that one, and also Provincial Road 303 in the F .. . area. These are important roads, and I know each member, each one in the House here have roads , and these roads are part of the problem ©fkeeping the communities, of keeping the people out of the cities.

They need good roads , and we all know they're expensive, but on the other hand I think this is a good reason to keep up the roads . I must say, I hate to pat the Minister on the back but I must say that we have been very fortunate in District 2 to have a very responsible staff, very efficient, and in most cases very cons iderate. And while -- before I go on I hope the Minister will read this because there has been some fun made of the issue. I would want to wish the Minister a safe journey if he should choose to open the special bicycle or tricycle paths at Birds Hill Park. Mr.

Speaker, on the subject of education, I must remind honourable members oppos ite - and I'm thinking particularly of the Minister now of Universities , and some others -- I must remind them that it is not too many years ago when they clearly spelt out the need for better education, but also for more and higher grants.

And I think they were right then, and I think they should try to be right now, because even if larger amounts have been forthcoming I think the overall pic ture hasn't changed; the speci al levies to municipalities se em to have gone up, even if the grants have been raised from 70 to 80 -- the Foundation Grant has been changed to a 80-20 basis.

The other thing of concern in the Education Department -- and I think experience of the last four or five years has brought this out very clearly -- I think the department should be very, very -- I'm sorry that this Minister is also not in the House, but I guess it's one of those days where the Ministers are trying to do their work on Monday, although it's odd the former and the pres ent House Leader are usually in the House but quite a few are miss ing in the other benches -- but I wish to point out to the Minister of Education, I think they're going in the right direction when they're taking a very close look at what is happening as far as public schools, as far as schools are concerned where the 11, 12, 13 and maybe even 14-year old children are transported -- not just the fact that they're transported for 15 or 20 miles, and I am sure in our area it isn't as bad as in most other areas because their population is fairly high, but I think a certain transition period takes place in these childre n's minds .

I've se en so many coming from farm homes in the 11, 12, 13 -year old age, then swung into a town of 2 or 3 or 5, OOO population and somehow - - I'm not trying to be sarc astic that thes e children are throwing themselves away, but they're just not used to some of the changes that have to take place, as if the fathers or the parents ' advice is not close enough when children are gone for five days a week for nine or ten hours a day.

And I have se en the department take a different attitude than it was taking some years ago, and I want to support that attitude because I think the longer we can keep that student as close to the usual environment he or she is used to I think we'll find that this will pay off in the long run. Mr. Speaker, much has been said about the costs of education, so while the increase of per pupil basis is not spelled out in the Throne Speech, I hope, I hope it's not going to be too puny because it looks like that is about the only amount we can depend on that will help keep down the special levies for municipalities .

And I would like to say that I think the time has come where we should stop playing around of changing our formulas from 70 to 30, 70-30 to 20-80. The special rates are high enough that we could forget jumping five percent, or five perc ent a year; I think the costs are

264 March 5, 197 3 THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (MR. BARKMAN cont'd ) ..... high enough now and our special levies are high enough to take that out completely and make it 100 percent Foundation Grant. I 'm not asbamed to say that some years ago I probably would have thought different, but the special levy is so high, up to 50 perc·ent in certain municipalities, that if this part were picked up -- I know there's partly a problem of control, but I think the time has come where it should be 100 percent, especially now that Rhineland is also in this -- taking in part, I imagine he would agree with me. Mrc.

Speaker, I have a se rious complaint, that I feel is serious, when it comes to the Clean Environment Department. Permits for hog and poultry barns and other buildings for agricultural purpos es, including feeding lots and so many other different types are being held up for far too long a pe riod. Farmers waiting up to six months, and some quite a bit longer, get very impatient, and while I realize some of the problems involved, I want to beg the Minis ter to speed up this operation.

I know that by the time a farmer starts planning financially and planning where he's going to put the building, very often by that time four or six months have elapsed, then another six months or so, and very often finally in November or December the permiss ion is granted, he's got to wait another four months bec aus e of weather conditions in this country, and I think this is a serious complaint, and I'm happy to see the Minister nod be cause I know he's aware of th is , and I hope something can be done about it.

I also would like to bring up the point as far as it seems that there are no more rendering se rvices left, at least not in southeastern Manitoba -- I don 't know what it's like in the west, but it seems that I can take you to places in my area -- just the other day 60 hogs in one pile they got disease- ridden and they died, and they haven't been cleaned up to this day.

Now I realize that some of the problems are that you have not adequate nuisance grounds , and even if they want to bring them somewhere some of the municipalities are not equipped the way they should be equipped, and I don't know for what reason the rendering services have quit, but I guess it wasn't profitable. So I realize that perhaps my problem is larger because of south eastern Manitoba's high population of dairy cattle and poultry and hogs, perhaps higher than a lot of other areas and so more of this takes place.

But I think we'll have to be brave enough to pass some kind of a law bec ause these things just cannot be allowed. Mr. Speaker, I wish to come back briefly to our slow pace of rural development in Manitoba.

I don't think there is a member in this House that is not aware of our fast declining population and ownership of farms and small busines ses, and I know that each member in this House is aware of some of the nearly critical conditions existing, and I do not want to elaborate, but I think it has to be said, some of the problems that are coming up, the difficulty of obtaining labour for example, farm labour; the high turnover of personnel in our, not just farms but our small busines ses.

And one could go on and on, but I realize the Throne Speech suggests that perhaps it will be in the study stages, but I hope it'll go further than that. Mr. Speaker, I would like to just say a few words on the subject of agriculture. Fi nally, mostly I guess through the misfortune that other countries have had as far as dil emmas of drought, or in some cases perhaps incapable farming methods , but we can at least say that we are finally getting a little more sens ible prices, or the farmer is getting a little more sensible prices .

But I want to leave this very clearly on the records, that as part of it has been said in this House, the farmers are not out of their problems yet. There's a lot that's stayed behind the last five or six years; there's a lot of machinery to be replaced; there are a lot of build ings to be replaced; and there are a lot of bills that were left behind that have to be paid.

And I was just wondering the other day, so many that had to fall by the wayside in the last three or four years, it would be nice to see some of those if they hadn't had quit and see some of those get some of the prices that finally have come to some extent today. And I must admit that I get quite perpl exed when I start analyzing the pros and cons of marketing boards.

But I think I have one thing clear in my mind, that if governments want to and have to stick their fingers into agricultural problems , one thing seems to be certain - they may for all I care, I hope they will, go and help find some of the markets, go and help with a lot of things, but make very sure that thes e markets are controlled by producers , in cluding the turkey busine ss, including many of the other busine sses .

And I find that I think I should tell a little story -- there's so much joking done about sen ators , that I think I should probably relate - - I heard the Senator McDonald who used to be the former oppos ition leader in the Saskatchewan government -- I was attending a meeting in, I think it was in British Columbia, with him and we were discuss ing agricultural and wondering

March 5, 1973 26 5 THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (MR. BARKMAN cont'd) . . what governments were trying to tell you one day grow more wheat, the next year grow less wheat, and finally it was his turn to say something, and he says - - and coming from a Liberal Senator, I thought this was pretty genuine - - he says, "You know, if I had not for the last ten years farmed completely opposite than what they told me, I would not have done as well as I did now. " And, Mr.

Speaker, speaking of marketing boards, I want to remind this government that I am not one of those that do not think that there are places for certain controls, but that con trol has to be wanted and needed by the producer. I know that things can go too far - - we just have to look at the B. C. broiler raisers .

I think they're paying from $3. 50 to $3. 65 per bi rd just to get the right to raise a bird, and we also know the dairy quotas not too long ago were rather high in our area - - everything can be over done but, if like our beef industry, or quite a few other industries, if they are running smoothly, if they are running properly, I think governments should have enough courage to just stay out of those people's busines ses and let them operate by thems elves. Mr.

Speaker, I don't" want to be too long because I know there's the lady speaker and others waiting; I would like to at this time just get away from politics for about two minutes and ask the pages if they'd be good enough to present members o

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-5-11
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 5th hansardpdf 11.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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Identifier	404411d39af37d7d940db90bef9f249aff355903

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