Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIR.TV-8EV.ENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT TUESDAY , APRIL 6, 1976 SPEAKER ; THE HONO.URABL E GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER Nu mber 45

April 6, 1976 The House met at 2:00 P.~. Pr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape 1788 STA'J'E}'ENTS BY MINISTERS: }m. SPEAKER: The hon. ~inister of Tourism. IB-1 ¥R. HICKEY: }<r. Speaker, I wish to inform. the House on the progress of the Norma and Gladys. The boat arrived in Barcelona on Narch 18 and luring its visit some 7,500 people visited it, large crowds, line­ up crowds requirin~ police to control them. All in all a very successful visit. It arrived in Genoa on Narch 27 and clocked a speed of somewhere between e]even and twelve knots. Genoa, }'r.

Speaker was the best,or the most successful port, some 8,500 people or an average of something like 2,700 per day visiting. It left Genoa and went to Nonaco at the request of the - }IR. S}<ALLHOOD: noes the minister know who was a native citizen of Genoa? Kll, HICKEY: Anati.ve citizen? MIL S~-P.LLHOOD: Yes, born there. }IR. HICKRY: John Cabot. Mr.. SNALLWOOP: Yes, and who else? Columbus. NP. HICKEY: Columbus. Yes, that is right. }<r. Speaker, Genoa was by far the mdst successful port.

It went to ~'onaco at the request of Prince Rainier and it is the first t:l.me in the history of that principality that a Canadian vessel made an official visit. I might add, Sir, that one of the reasons for the vessel visiting there was because there is a gentleman there - I believe his name is Jacques Cousteau- who is an expert on underwater fillning and who has made a great number of films of the sea and the seabed, who is violently opposed to the establishment of the 200 mile limit. \fu:l.le he was not in the area at the time his staff visited the vessel and viewed the exhibit anrl was very interested in it.

The vessel left Monaco and went from there to Toulon, a very short stop of something like eight hours. Crowds of people again turned out. I do not have a count. It left Toulon and is presently in Marseilies. The first day it has been open to the public 4801

April 6, 1976 T11pe l78e IB-2 Ill' • fli C'KT'Y: so~thinr in the or~er of 2,6on people visitc~ t~e vesseJ,In d icRtin~ a very succPssful vis i t there as ~1 . For the interesr, vr. Speaker, of t he people '~ho ~o•ere concernec:l anc:l have been for sn lony ahout the seat~rtbincss of t he vessel, the Captain reports to me tc-clay tha t yet anr>the~: rec.,r<' ~~ <'S set by the vessel reaching t!'!irteen :md a half knots between "'onaco and 'l'oulon . Pear, hear! ~fl'. Hli.KEY: So r th1nk, "r. !'peaker, there should be no c'oubt at thi~ time of the sea"rorthiness of the vessel or inclee<l the safety of the crew.

I wish to rep ort as well that the captain nne\ the crew are all ·~E>ll .~•:lth the exception of one ycntlel".8!l who has had !'one rroul>le, soi"C! heart trouble . He knew it 1-efore h~ left . He is rresently hospitaHz ecl in ''ona co but is expectetl to he release<' w1 thin a "'eek or two and hopefully "ri.ll rejoin the vessel. Pear, hear! VI'. <;p£AJ{fl>: I wc-uld l:i ke to clra"' to the attention of hon. l".er.hers And to wclcol'le to the visitor ' s galle-cy "eve rene! Rro ther Wooc:l and a number of irR<le VJ stuc'ents from St. Bonaventure ' s School, . and certajnly co t l•e younp wen from St .

Bonave nture's, to express to theM on behalf of al:!. hon. r.embers how pleased ..-e Rre to have you here toda y and the hope th.<~t your visit ~d.ll be enjoyable and instructh•e . SO"E liON. }lf.''BF.T>S: Hear, hear! 4802

April 6, 1976 Tape 1789 PK - 1 PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bellevue. MR. W. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of the residents of North Harbour, in Placentia Bay. The prayer of the petition reads as follows: We the undersigned of the community of North Harbour, in Placentia Bay, do hereby present a petition to the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador requesting that the road from the Burin Peninsula Highway to North Harbour covering a distance of five miles be upgraded and paved in this year 1976. Mr. Speaker, there are 186 signatures on this petition.

And, of course, this petition is similar to the one that I presented yesterday on behalf of the residents down in the Hillview area, and similar to other petitions presented by other hon. members from their constituencies. Mr. Speaker, at the risk of getting into the realm of debate, I think I might say that it is pretty easy,! believe,for the hon. member for St. John's Centre 01r. Murphy) and other such hon. members, it is pretty easy for them to be jovial and funny and comical and so on. They do not have to fight for artesian wells, water and sewer, reconstructed roads, paved roads and so on - 1-!R.

NEARY: Hear, hear~ MR. CALLAN: - because the City Council does all of that for them. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear~ NR. CALLAN: So, Mr. Speaker, without going into detail of course regarding the prayer of this petition, let me simply say that I thoroughly support the prayer of this petition and I ask that this petition be tabled and referred to the department to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. HR.

NEARY: It gives ne great pleasure, Sir, on behalf of all the independent people in this Province to support the prayer of the petition so ably presented by my hon. friend and learned friend the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan). The prayer of the petition, Sir, is a reasonable one, and I do hope that the government will give it a sympathetic hearing. 4803

April 6, 1971i Tape 1789 PK - 2 1RAL QUESTIONS XR. SPEAKER: The hon . member for Trinity-Bay de Verde . }tn. F . ~ Mr. Speaker , the Minister of Education last week indicated, he took notice of a question that I asked hi.m concerning a provi,nce-wide educational T.V. system . I wonder if the mini s ter could indicate to the House what the status of that system is at the present time now, pleas e? HR . SPEAKPR: The hon . ~tinist er of Education . IIO:i • tL HOUSE: }lr . Speaker , the problem of television in schools have been under active consideration , of course , and i t is going to be dependant on cable T.

V. , and 1 t hink there will be educational s tations when the cable T.V. comes about, and that is &oing to be a little bi t into the future . Also we have been trying to 8Ct t ime on the sate llite, we worked \·lith the Univer s ity on that, and we are tryin g get tiJO hours time on that, but we have not gotten ony time on t ha t particular unit . That is a!l much as 1 ca n say on it . 11R. SPF.AKRR: The hon . member for Trinity-Bay de Verde . IIR. ~QI!E : Sir, in view of the fact that the Premier in 1971 indica ted that the P.C' s,presumably the government.would institute a province-wide educational T.

V. sys t em, is the '"inister now s3ying tha t they dropped t hat idea and they are noing to make it eol!le under the jurisd:. ction of cable T. V. companies or what have you? ~~R . SPEAKF.R: lUL HOUSE: The hon. Minister of Education . :·!r . Speaker, I was not aware of che .1971 promise or anything of that nature . So I cannot comment on it . The only thing T am saying is that with cable television coming about , 1~e are hoping co have televis :.on into the classrooms.when it can serve a purpose . SOm: RON • ~fEHil~RS : Hear, hear! 4804

April 6, 1976 Tape 1790 PK - 1 The hon. member for Bellevue. MR. SPEAKER: l1R. CALLAN : Mr. Speaker, there has been a gentleman in the galleries quite often during the last couple of sittings and he asked me to put a question to the Minister of Education, He is a retired schoolteacher, and the question that he wants asked is whether or not there is any provision in this year's budget to increase the salary of retired teachers? MR. ROWE: Salary? Pension. MR. CALLAN: Pension. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Education. MR. HOUSE: That matter, Mr.

Speaker, will be discussed when the Education estimates are discussed,and that will be in this sitting. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Pogo. CAPT. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, a question to the han. Minister of Fisheries. Would the minister inform the House if he has received the agreement which was suppose to be signed between Ottawa and the Provincial Government - a double-barreled question - and how much did the Provincial Government request from DREE for fisheries this coming year? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. HON. W. CARTER: Mr.

Speaker, the agreement could very well be in my office, I was not there this morning because of a Cabinet meeting. But certainly I did hear the news release on it, and I am looking forward to receiving it soon. The second part of the question I shall take as notice. Mr. Speaker, maybe while I am on my feet you would allow me to answer a question that was asked last week by the hon. member for Fogo.(Mr. Winsor),- MR. ROBERTS: No,this· is not the appropriate time to respond to questions asked previously. MR. W. CARTER: -concerning the calling of tenders. MR . SPEAKER: Order, please!

In order to answer that question new the minister would need unanimous consent, ·and it is my understanding that he does not have it. 4805

April 6, J 97 1' Tape 1790 PK - 2 ?!R . :lFARY: ----·- -· Ily leave ! By leave , l ~r . Speaker ! ~JR. RO!lEUS : A supplementary, Nr. Speaker. ~lR . SPF.Aiv.ll ; The hon. member may answer it by leave, but that would mean unanimous consent, and it is ry understanding he does not have it . MR. ROBERTS: No, Hr. Speaker, I for one will not give him leave, He should have bee:t here at the appropriate time on the Order Paper He has had a \-.'eek to anmver the question. A surplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Can the minister tell us Hhether the government of this Province are pt:epared to enter into the agreement with DPJ\E,,,hich apparently is in the mail, and I appreciate the fact that the minister may not yet have seen the today's - MR. W. CARTER: I will take notice. MR. ROBERTS: - he can take notice if he -.rishes. I '"ant to -------- kno"' ••hether the government ere prepared to enter into the agreement on fisheries with DP~E1 Mtl . W. CARTER: Of course we are. Hr. Speaker, it goes without saying, of course we are. ~ lR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. ~ !R. J . NOLAN : ~lr.

Speaker, a question on information which I womld like to address to either the Minister of Provincial Affairs or possibly to the !Iouse Leader. I wonder would they tell us if the Department of Provincial Affairs has been abolished? I ask that question because if you examine the budget, or if you look at the salary details released,you will find that it is listed as the Department of Consumer Affairs and Environment. Now has the Department of Provincial Affairs been abolished? Has there been an official name change? f~at is the situation rep,arding that department at the: moment? ~:R. SPEAKER: The h0n.

Ninister without Portfolio. MR. WELLS: ------ :-lr. Speaker, the in tent ion of the government is as the Premier bas announced,to make changes in the department and the changes that are intended of course will reflect the new name. But 4806

April 6, 1976 Tape 1790 PK - 3 Mr. Wells: the department has certainly not been abolished, and all the legal requirements are still in effect, And of course the name of a department cannot be changed without

an act passing through this Legislature,and likewise the functions cannot be changed. So the status quo is in effect as of now and until such time as it is changed by an amendment. MR . SPEAKER: I t"ill recognize the hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d 'Espoir for a supplementary,and the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, following up the question from my colleague would the Government House Leader not think that in view of the fact that the name of a department legally is Provincial Affairs and the Environment, is it not improper for the estimates to contain a term which is not the name of any department? I would understand it, Mr. Speaker, as a legal document in every sense of the term. We are being asked as the House of Assembly to approve estimates for a department that does not exist on paper,or legally. MR . SPEAKER: The hon. Minister without Portfolio . MR. WELLS: To answer that question, Mr.

Speaker, the department which legally exists,of course, as of now is the Department of Provincial Affairs and Environment. That is the present name. I do not think there is anyt~ing improper in using the name Consumer Affairs and Environment in the estimates, as it is the intention of the government,and obviously the government will bring an amendment in to authorize and to confirm the use of that name. ~ lR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. 4807

April 6, 1976 Tape 1791 IB-1 l'P • "'EA PY : }<r. Speaker, my ']uestion is for the Minister of '1-'ines and 1\nerp,y. lvould the minjster tell the House whether or not a contract has been let. as yet for the 138 KVA transmission U.ne to be construct en from Churchill Fa~ ls to Happy 1rall.ey-Goose B1>.y? If it is not Jet, would the l"ini:::ter indicate to the House when he expects the contract to be let? The hon. ~in:l~ter of Mines and Enerr,y. I • ""'" rrnsl3IE: ~:o contrRct has yet been let, Yr. Speaker. Tenilers were called and they have been received and trey Rre being evaluated DOH. ><p .

SPT\AKF.P. : '!'he bon. me!T'ber for LaPoile. A Rupp]el"lentary C]uest:ton, "r. Speaker. In the event thllt the contract should be awarded to a fim outside of Newfoundland, can the rnin:lster assure this House that Newfound}_anders will gPt preference for employment on the project when it commences? ~!'. SPF.Alill~: The bon. t'inister of ~'ines and Energy. VT', rrf'S TE: Yes, Yr. Speaker. ''F. f:PEA!CET': The hon. member for LaP oil e. Mil. NEARY: J. sur.pJ ementary. !.rill that be a part of 11nv agreel'\ent for a contract that is let? ''T'. SPEAKRT': The hon.

"jnfster of !'ines and Enern. ~"' crnc-BIE: "'he p11rt of the ailrdn:l .stration of the contract - '1'. HEA?Y: But '<>•ill :It be b :I nil ing~ Fow ..,iJ.l jt be in forcerl~ HP. CROSBIE: Tt ,,,jl] he just as binrling, Yr. Speaker, as anything that ••as hincUng on the Ppper Churchill or any other contract ever Jet in this Province. l'T'. NEARY: In other \·JOrcls,yon caonot guarantee it. Y11. C Clf:R r:: J .iust p:uaranteerl it . IT. SPEAKER: The bon. me!llber for Conception Bay South. ~'11. NOLAN: ~'r. Speaker, a question for the l"inister of Industrial nevelopment.

T realize lt will be clifficult for the minister to he speci fie on perhaps any one item or t1••o, but in view of the .iob s:l.tuation in this Province at the moment and ~7hat we see for the i1'1merliate future, J ""' wonclerin~ to ~.mat extent the I'lin:lster is 4808

April 6, 1976 Tape 1791 IB-2 ~ ll.OLI\N : _ successful in dealing with federal departments. I know something about what he is attempting to do through his o~m. department. But I am just wondering if there is any real initiative coming towards h:f.m or towards any minister who is involved in the creation of johs,if you like. lt:rhat I am saying jack blunt;n fact, is what is the relationship at the moment bet,~een the federal government on the one hand, whether it is nPEE or ~rhatever, and the provincial government on the other!

I mean, clo we have enough going for us to ass:l.st the minister in obviously ~rhat I 1qould think he is attempting to clo? ~~. SPEAKE~ The hon. Minister cf Industrial and nural Development. ~r_ . Ll!!"_Dl'ICAN: t•r. Speaker, that is a very difficult question to answer :In a nutshe]l. I suppose it is fair to say that the federal government are working with us in any kinds of projects ancl programmes ve are puttinr; forward. Some of the projects which have been talked about in recent lveeks my colleague, the Minister of Fisheries, has articulated on,and the Premier.

Joint ventures and matters of broad sig:nificance are being 1rorkecl on. I think there will be announcements at a later date of significance. In terms of working relationships that are to be developed ,especially with the l'~inister of 'l'rade and r.ommerce whn is in a marve]lous pos:l.tion today to help the Province AS a result of his tremenclous international l:l.nkage .ond his overseas involvement that he has, h:ls tracle ab1Jity as a depart!"ental head. DREE - I clo not think I should make any derogatory comments.

Tt fs up to the Provi.nce of course to continuously put fon ,,arcl programmes that can be responc1ed to by the federal governnent. But I ~r ill take notice of the question to expand on it when the esti .mates are up. ~"' SPEAKEP : The hon. member for LaPoile. ~'Jl. NEArY: A supplementary questi.on, ~!r. Speaker. I think my supplementary is to the ~·inister responsible for I!l.tergovernmental Affa:l .rs. Is there anything clefinite yet from nREE or the Government of r.anacla concerning the Burgee P.oad, the Loop 'P_oad :In Bonavista North, the Bay d'Espo:lr highway and the Great Northern Peninsula? 4809

~pril f., 197(. Tape 17CJ1 IB-3 ~'ll . ~PF.Afa:Jl : The hon. t'in;l ster of ~':lnes anti Fn er~;y. •<r. C:POSBU:: f'r . ~peake r, there is an agreement up before the Government of ran1.1<ia not~ 1n t~hich c-f cour se this Province is fi&hting valiantl y to have cont1nuetl a!! ronds that were in clurl etl under the nl'EB pt;"ogramme lal't year . The 'l')epartment of r>eyional ancl Econ001i c Expansion, as memhers know ancl as I told the Rouse, are onl y g oing to spen d in this Province t hls year t he same a1!1ount as they spent last year.

But they have not agree~ to snencl the same amount on roans in this Pro vince this year as they spen t last year. There is no~o· before them a sup.gest ed two yet~ r np.ree111en t, cut back to accord with their dictates as to what they are will in P to spencl. Thnt includes a n~ber of roads in the Province , but there wHJ be ne> point in sayinr. Nhat is inclurleil until an arree~ent is si~etl. No~o• to•e understanci that an agreement shoulrl be si~erl within the next C'Ouple of weeks .

As soon a!' an arreement is signecl there vill hP. <~n announcen>ent . rertatnly ~o•e want wor k to continue on all the roacs the bon . y.entle~an ~entione~. "11 SPE.IIJ(E!': "!'he hon. l"emher for Trinity-Bay cle Vercle. ~>"" . F . rom~: "r. Speaker, 11 ouestion for the 11:1n:lster of :!':t'ucation .

To view of ~he fnct t r at the president of the Ttn:lvers:lty has announced h1 s intention to institute cutbac~s because of the $2 ~illion or so sho rr -fall :In the university hucr,et, could the l'linister indicate the ~ r~tu~ of the ~o ve~nt's announced intention to establish reg:lc-nal colleges i.n vprious sl.'ctors of the "Province? Thi~ "'as in the 1972 Throne ~l'e"'cr . 4810

April 6, 1976 'rape 1792 IB-1 J>'T?. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Education. ~'11'. ROHSE: l'r. Speaker, I am not fully aware of the status of that right now. All I can say is there is nothin~ in the estimates this year to my knowledge for any expansion 1but I will take the question and bring an anS'!ver back later. ~~. SPEAKER: The hen. member for Conception Bay South. 1-IJl •• NOLAN: }l'r. Speaker, a question for what I believe is the Minister of Tourism. I believe the minister is responsible for parks generally, is he not? I would not expect an immediate answer to this question now.

I raise it at this time because we are getting into the season when parks will be opening and eo on. }l'y point is that sorne years ago, I believe, the people of Topsail were promised a park in view of the situation regarding Topsail Re~ch. I am sure the minister is very, very familar with that situation although he was not min:l.ster responsible at the time. That is that the people who live on the road going down to that beach is really a savage situation there in the Summer. They are about the only people I know who pray for bad weather and the l'otmties obviously cannot handle the situation.

I am sure the }l'inister of Justice has been familar with it. I believe the minister's department or his parks division have been looking at the situation. I wonder would he undertake perhaps to be able to come to the House shortly with whatever information is available. I have talked to some of his officials,! mi~ht add,and I know they are very aware of the problem. If we could have an updating on it at the minister's convenience it would be very much appreciated. !'1' .• SPEAKEl'!: The han. ~'inister of Tourism. ?'R. HICKEY: "r.

Speaker, I can :Inform the hen. member rivht now that 111y department h>!!s heen interested and anxious to do somethinp, with the Topsail Beach area for ~ite some time. One of the reasons it has not been successful to date is because of problems in acquiring land. Those problems are still not sorted out. Therefore I cannot tell him when any activity will commence. Certainly my staff are pursuing the 4811

~pril 6, 1976 Tape 1792 IB-2 ~'~". Hlf.KEY: matter quickly, with all the speed they can. I have no indication as to V.'hen the I!'atter will be resolved, but r.1hen it is certainly we r.1:fll continue our plans to develop that area. '~. epf.AKEr. : The hon. !!'£!!'her for Laroi]e. >~ Nl'A~>Y: ''r. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Pehah11itation and ?ecreation. Hould the l'linister tell the House ~~hat becomes of wards of the court, juveniles who are placed under the responsibility of the reinister by the court1 How are they supervised?

Are they placerl in foster homes? roulc.1 the minister tell us ~rhat responsibility the p,overnment would then have for these _inven:lles 1-1ho are pl2ceil unc.1er the minister's rlepartment by the conrts? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. }'in i.ster without Portfolio. MP. HELLS: ~'r. Speaker, anyc>ne ~rho is !'lade by the courts a ward of the nirector of Chilfl '''elfare or any offida.l of the department of c0urse ~•ould he carerl for hy the department. The department or the offi.ci<~l namecl wou] cl have the lefl:<~l right to guide and care for that chilr'!.

Of course that is done in a variety of ways, in instituti .ons or homes or Fherever the chile' mi>":ht he put. But there is no question that "''hen the court makes such an ward the responsibility for that person rests with the officials. '1' . SPEAKER : The hon. rnernher for Lal'oile. 'IlL NF~Y: Vr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Vould the mjnister then tell the Rouse in the case o~ property dama~e or theft of any kind 1 1voulrl the p;overnJT'Cnt then be responsible f0r that damage because the jnveni]es are wards of the c'epartment of the government?

To "''hat depree 1muld the ll'inister and the department be responsible for wy c:l. ama~e that may be done hy juveni)es \~ho are wards of the minister's c.1epartrnent? ~m. SPEAKER: The hon. "inister without Portfolio. MR. ~.!!_S_:_ That would he covered by the general Jaw of the land, "r. ~peaker. lis I recall the position, if we assume for a moment that the director or • ..,hoever else is appointed would be in the same 4812

April 6, 1976 Tape 1792 IB-3 Y~. WELLS: position as a parent - and the law as I recall it on that point is that a parent is not liable for the torts of his children, tort being damage caused to somebody else unless, and I think the woraing is, unless he counsels or procures the tort. In other words, if my child goes and breaks a ,.,.,indow and I have nothing whatsoever to do with it, then I am not liable for the broken ,.,_,i.ndow. Th1s has been decided in courts in Newfoundland all over the years.

On the other hand if I give a small child a rifle or some sort of gun or slingshot or something and allow him to go shooting all over the place wjthout caring what he does,then under the civil law I could be held liable. So I would feel, Mr. Speaker, without having researched this, and I am speaking nm,r from my memory of the law on this point, that the posftion vis-a-vis someone who is a 1vard of a government department or an official would he exactly the same as a position of the parent. It would be a case of proving in an individual case whether there was counselling ~r procuring on the part of the official.

In other words, negligence or carelessness allowing damage to happen. MJ>. NEAJ!Y: A supplementary question to the minister, 1-'r. Speaker. ~IJ'. SPEAKF.P: I will aJlow one further supplementary. 4813

Tape 17'l3 RH - 1 MR. l-lf.ARY: Nr. Sneaker, in the case of the fire, Sir, at the Curtis Academy where two juveniles were involved, has the minister investigated this particular case to see if the children were prooerly suoervised? Thev were under the minister's care,I understand. If so, who in this c~se would he responsihle for that rlamage, for the hurning rlown of the school? r!R . CROSBIE: The minister t•muld. I!R. SPEAKER: The hon. ~inister without Port~olio. HR. R. HELT.S: Hy hon. colleague says the minister, Hr. Speaker. No, I have not investigated that case.

The investigation was undertaken by the neoartment of Justice. I cannot conceive that anybody in any depart­ ment of government could be responsible for someone goinp: and doing some­ thinp,~if in fact they did what the hon. member has suggested. I certainly do not accept the fact that anyone under the care of the department actually >~ent and did this. This is something that would have to be oroven. But certainly I will look into it, ~r. Speaker, to see ~mat the position is vis-a-vis the Department of Rehabilitation. ~,. SPEAKER: The hen. member for Fogo. CAPT. ~. m:NSOR: Nr.

Speaker, a <]uesti on to the hon. ~lin:! ster of Tourism. In light of the statement which the minister made :i ust previously, the ~ 1 orma and Gladys havin?, attainerl a speed of thirteen and a half knots, can he assure the House that no ad<i.itional power has been j_nstalled in that vessel since he left here? How did she attain that thirteen and a half knots? A'l HO]'j. Hf.MBE!l: She is gone with the tide. HR. SPEAKER: The hen. ~1inister of Tourism. IIR • HICKF.Y : I am very happy to explain that, ~lr. Speaker.

The speed w:J.s thirteen knots, so that ~1e are completely accurate,because I would hate to misinform the House. l'm.. HD!SOR: l·'R. JliCKF.Y: Sorry if I gave her a half a knot extra. I am told that gusts of winds up to seventy to eighty miles an hour so of lended a hand. C/\l'T; V-TINSOR: 'lo way coulil she carry her canva~! 4814

April r;, 1976. Tane 1793 RH - 2 MR. lliCKEY: That is what the equipment aboard the vessel. clocked her at, thirteen knots. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR. F. RO\.JE : Hr. Speaker, a question for the Premier. Could the Premier indicate to the l'ouse, Sir, what the status of,or where the two foreign ,firms are who were examining the possibility of constructing huge offshore concrete platforms in this Province? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PRl'J'!IER ~100RES: No, Mr. Speaker, I cannot give the exact detail.

The statul'l j_s that there are only two firms in the world at the present time have major involvement in them. I know one of them is Mr. Alpine and the other is ~ Non~egian that I cannot enunciate unfortunately. But the fact is that they both have their people in Newfoundland looking at the potential here. This is one of the few places in the East Coast of America, ~lorth America where it can be clone. Now one of the greatest problems :f s if they are built here, hm~ rio you tow them to where the oil has been found as opposed to where it may be found.

The situation is that this is still a considerable distance away. It is still not something that is going to happen tomorrow morning. It is something that when it does hapjlen it will he of such magnitute that certainly this House will be informed. }!R. SPF.AKER: MR. 1'. ROV.'F.: The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. A supplementary. Mr. Speaker, has the Premier been in consultation with these two com11anies since he first made the announcement back in January, 1<175? MR. SPF.AKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER ~OORES: The answer is yes, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKEn: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR.

NEARY: Can the hon. the Premier tell the House what is happening in connection no>r with the .Julienne Lake iron ore deposits, ~Jhat the chances are of having the iron ore in Labrador, these great reserves of iron ore, having them developedfWhat discussions have taken place, what discussions are 4815

Aoril 1\, 1<"!71'.. 11t. ~EARY : Tape 1793 'RH - 3 taldnp place "? Give us a progress report on what is happenin~ to .Julienne Lakt>. PRF."'TF.R '!OORES: l'.r . Speaker, there are several issues before the courts ant! other places . !?c have tall:etl inf<lrtnallv to people ahout the ootential of Julienne Lake , but there is nothing speci fie decided as vet. MR. SPF.AKF.R: ~IR . NE/IRY: The hon. member for l.aPoile . A supplementary question , Hr.

Speaker . ~·ould the hon. the Premier hf! in a p::>sition to table the names of the firms that the ''on . the Premier and the go vernment have bee n de a lin~ with in conn.ection 1~ith this development? 'IR. SPF.AKF.R: 1'he hon . the Premier. !'RJ'.!HER MOORP.S: No, ~lr . Speaker . :m. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. After I will r ecognize t"te hon . member for Stephenville ('lr. t.l. HcNeil) . 'IP.. RCIBF.RTS: Thank you, }fr. Speaker . There is time for two questions, I take it? ~IR . SPF.AY..ER: I '-'Ould think so. '-W.. ROBERTS: Okay. A ouestion for the t!iniste r of Tourism, ~r .

Speaker. /1 week or ten davs ago I asked hiD if he would be in a position to table detnils of all contracts entered into between his depa rtment on one hand tend the C:11hot Grou p 4 T.imited on the other hand, and he satd he would take i,t as notice . lias the l!linister yet had an opportunity to look into that question with a view to p.ivinp. us a definitive answer? ~ IR . SPEAKER: The hon. tlinister of Tourism . 48!6

April 6, 1976 Tape 1794 TB-1 ~'1'. Hir.KEY: l'r. Speaker, T ap;ree ~1ith the I,eader of the Opposition, that quest :ion 1Jas askecl and I said that I would take it tmder advisement. Since then his co] league the member for Burgee-Bay d 'Espo:f r U·'r. Simmons) asked the same question. I informed him that I ~muld do the same thing.

I informecl him yesterclay that for the most part, with the exception 1 bel:leve of t1ro very small projects,all work done by that company,whether there "ere contracts or purchase orders or ~·hatever the case may be, was entered into through the normal channels of Pub] ic 1,Torks and 8ervices. I have no authority or indeed no records of l••hatever contracts there might be. Therefore the question would be more appropriately n:lrecte~ to that department. In relation to the other n.•o :ltems,~7hen my estimates are being discus!'ed minute details will be supplied if necessary.

I am not sure what the hon. gentlemen across the way have in mind,but I assure them they are barking up the ~JT.ong tree. ~~- SPEAKEP: The hon. Leader of the Opposition . YR. ROBF."RTS: A supplementary. Then I believe the gentleman from Stephenville (1'r. 1.r. ~'cNeil) 1 Your. Honour ha~ sort of intended to recogni7.e him after. The minister,if ever we call his estimates, 'le "ill be ahl e to tell what ~'e are after.

Toly supplementary obviously is direC'ted to the Mini.ster of Public Works an~ Servi.ces. 1-louJ.d the l'l:lnister - the acting minister, 1 am sorry, in the absence of the gentleman for Tlumber Ea,;t (J1r. l'arrell) - 1•70U1 d the actjng min:! ster undertake to loo~: out and then to table details of the contrPcts that have> been entered into between the government through the department and this Cabot r.roup q Limited firm? ~- SPEAKEP: The acting ~in5ster of Public Works and Services. ~'1'. llOlTSSEAll: I wU l tal:e that question nnder aflvisement. ~. SPE/ol<ER: nrder, please!

There js t:lme for only one further question. I had indicate(! the hon. member for StephenvHle (l"r. ~.). YcNeil) and I would be remiss not to recognize him. ?'R. ~1r.NEIT.: ?'r. Speaker, a question for the Ninister w:l.thout Portfolio. 4817

/lprH 6,1 9 76 T~~:pe 1794 IB-2 __ 'R . t:CNEIL: Hhen will the proposen rep;oirs on buildi ng 214 he nin Sind w:lll these repairs be complete be fo r e the co~en ce~ent Qf the Newfounnland r.ull'l!le:- ~ames? 'Ru1l(l:ln!l 214 1.~ the prov:lnc: i a l 1-le~;t r.oast Training Cente r dormitories, the Trainin g C enter at Stephenville. 1-'1". SPEAK!'P: The " 1n1c;te r •dthou t Por ttol1o . That of course T will have t c- yet the detail s from the clepa rt!llent ami vould hope that ! could j!et t hem and give an ans1-1er to the member tomorrow. O!'lWPS OJ' THE flAY On motion t:1at t he House resolve itself into Committee of Supply. }~. Spe ake r left the Chair. 4818

April 6, 1976 Tape No. 1795 ID~ - 1 COMMITTEE: HR. CHAI~.AN (~'11. YOUNG) : Order, please! The Minister of ¥ines and Energy was speaking, the hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. 'MR. CROSBIE: I 'l-1ill try and reply to some of the remarks that were made. ~~. SMALLWOOD: The minister was not speaking when the debate adjourned. ~ .. CROSBIE: Yes,I was. }!F. CHAIRMAN (MR. YOUNG) : He was replying to a question. That is what I understood, l"R . s ~~.ALLWOOD: Nm<? Replying now to a question? MP. CROSBIE: Hhen the Committee adjourned, 1-!r, Chairman, I was replying to some point that had been made. MR.

NEARY: ~,T e are in r.ommittee of the Whole. The member for Twillingate (vr. Smallwood) was on his feet first. ~'11. CROS11U:: I do not mind, Hr. Chairman. HP. CHAIP}~ · (}'ll. Y!'HJNG): I recognize the hon. member for Twillingate. ~m. SMALLWf10D: Mr. Chairman, yesterday in the debate on this matter the hon. member for LaPoile (~r. Neary) made reference to an incident that had occurred in St. John's in the home of the hon. member for Trinity- Bay de Verde (Mr. Rowe).

I understand that this matter was referred to on an earlier occasion,but I would not be permitted under the rules to deai with it now in this present debate but for the fact that it was referred to in this debate, and that is the story of a meeting that was held in the home of the hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. I propose to tell the Committee precisely what happened as T recollect it. If other hon. members who were present at that meetin~ recollected otherwise,that is their affair. I can tell only what happened as I··recall ~'hat happened. What happened was that the hon. memher for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary), who was then the member for Bell Island,called me on the telephone -no, I called him and we discussed the Churchill Falls matter. The Churchill 4819

Tape No. 1795 ffi'!- 2 ~m. SMAl,LH'lOD: Falls matter had not at that moment been announced in the Rouse by the hon. the Premier. It had hmvever been announced outside the House and it was common knowledge that the government ~•ere taking over Churchill Falls. I ~ras asked by some ne~•spaper · , I believe The f.vening Telegram, and also by some radio and television stations what I thought of it, anrl I had made a declaration to the effect that it was the greatest blunder that this or any government had ever cor.un1tted in Newfoundland. I was absolutely opposed to it.

I thought it was a very, very bad move indeed; morally, constitutionally, financially and bad in every other ~.my". I had made this publ:i c statement. And this fact \Vas well knmm Hhen the hon. member for Tlell Island,then,and I discussed it on the telephone. And I asked him ~,rhat the Opposition were going to do about it. He said he did not know.

Hel], I said, it is one of the most vital matters ever to come before ~ewfoundland, ever in its nearly 500 year old history, and the 0pposition should fight it; that Cturchill Falls, BRINCO, r.hurchill Falls Power Corporation were all the creations of the Liberal admi.nistraticn of "hich some members of the llpposition,as it was then,had been members, had been minister>, three or four of them,or tva or three of them: The hon. member for Labrador North (}!r.

Woodward) ; the hon. member for Fogo (Capt. lo/'insor), who is still the hon. member for Fogo; the han. member for White Bay North, who is still 'the member for that district under another name and other boundaries; there were at least three - '!R. ROllERTS: rrr. Bill Rowe. HR. SH.ALL1-'00D: There ~vere four, at least four members of the then npposition who had been members of the preceeding administration led by me. ~m. roBERTS: The gentleman then for Bell Island. >"l. Sl'ALLTI100D: And also the hon. member then from llell Island.

There were five ex-Cabi.net Ministers helping them to form the Liberal Opposition of that time and either 4n-u Cl.

April 6, 1'176. Hlt • S~1ALUVOOD: Tape 1796 RH- 1 I volunteered or the member for Bell Island, the present member for LaPoile(Mr . N eary) suggested, either he or I suggested that I should, if I were willing, I should speak to the members of the Opposition. He as l•.ed me if I were tvilling to do so and I said I was. It ought to be a private meeting, a confidential meeting and we should be able to talk plainly and confidentially.

Re said, "Will I find out if the Opposition would be willing to have you speak to them!" I said 1 "Yes, if you like, find out." He called me back and said that he had spoken with the J.eader of the Opposition and that the Leader of the Opposition had agreed that it would be all right for me to go and speak to them. He had only one condition to make and that t•Tas that before I spoke with the members of the Opposition I should first speak with him, that he and I should have a hrief personal conversation to be followed then by a meeting of all of the members of the Opposition.

To this condition I agreed without hesitation. The meeting was set, I believe, for the following morning and I believe that the following day was a Thursday, morally certain that it tvas a 1hursday. It was set for nine o'clock Thursday morning in the home of the present hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. I had not been in his home previously and had some little difficulty finding it.

But I found it, I went in and I did meet with the Leader of the Opposition briefly, for a matter of three or four minutes, maybe five minutes, very briefly, whereupon the host, the mmer of the home,ushered the other members, hi s colleagues of the Opposition into this basement room which if I recall it right is sort of a rumpus room,is it perhaps or a - AN ITON. HEMBER: A recreation room . MR. SHAT.LT,.TOOD: -- a recreation room . MIL DOODY: A rumpus room indeed! MR . SMALLWOOD: All right, rumpus room, recreation room.

At all events there was no rumpus on that occasion nor were there any ructions nor was there too much recreation. It was a sensible,business-like discussion, I thought, friendl y and interesting,and I thought extremely valuable, extremely 4821

April t'i, 1976. HR. StfALLHOOn: Tape 1796 RH - 2 valuable,! thought,from the standpoint of Newfoundland, Newfoundland's long-range interest, from the standpoint of the Liberal Party of Newfoundland, a very valuable meeting. I think all members of the Opposition were present with the exception of Mr. Woodward1who was in Labrador at the time, I believe with that sole exception they were all present. Now I made the remark that in my opinion what the government were doing ~Jas a popular thinp.; with the people of Newfoundland.

I said that you might as well face it gentlemen, that if you oppose it you will be taking the unpopular position, that the government's decision to nationalize Churchill Falls was a decision that was meeting then,at that time, up to then - and I mip,ht add, parenthetically,continued for some time afterwards-to meet with general public approval.

I pointed this out to them and pointed out that if they took a contrary stand, a stand in opposition to what the p.overnment were doing,and had announced unofficially they were doing,and which the Premier was understood to be planning to announce officially that very afternoon here in the House of Assembly. However, I said, unpopular as it is, in my ooinion, for you to oppose it, unpopular as it is, it is the rip.;ht tr.ing for you to do.

You ~rlll be doing the ri~J;ht thing to oppose it and you ought therefore to oppose it,and you ought not to refrain from opposing it merely because it would be unpopular to oppose it. lve discussed it back and forth very amiahl y, Mr. Chairman. Very amiably, 4822

April 6, 1976 Tape 1797 PK - 1 Mr . Smallwood : in a most friendly fashion, we discussed it .back and forth. I made one promise to the group, to the Liberal Opposition, I said,"Gentlemen, you have doubtless,all of you heard,! know some of you heard, and I doubt not that you have all heard that I have plans to launch a new political party, a ·,new Liberal party:' And they all nodded, they had heard that. They were not alone, A lot of people at least had heard that I was talking, thinking strongly of forming a.-new Liberal party in this Province.

I said, "If you men will take the right stand on this Churchill Falls thing, if you will take the right stand- the unpopular stand, but the right one- if you will do that, you can forget that you ever heard any hint of suggestion that I will form a new Liberal Party. On the contrary~instead of forming a new Liberal Party, I will support the Liberal ~arty, your Party. I will campaign the length and breadth of Newfoundland when the election does come.

I will do all in my power to help you get re-elected, to get elected to power, to become the government." And there was very considerable satisfaction on the faces and in the voices of everybody as far as I could judge, every person present. And one member of the Opposition spoke up and said, "Well,that is wonderful, but would you yourself run as a candidate with us?" To which my answer was, "No. No I will not be a candidate.

But I will campaign for you, I will campaign Newfoundland and throw whatever weight I have, whatever influence, what campaigning ability I have behind you to get you elected to be the government, if you will fight this Churchill Falls thing now." Well,I have met many groups of men in my life, I have talked \<ith many groups of men in my life, big and small. I knew every individual member of the Liberal Party who was there present in the home of my hon. friend from Trinity-Bay d'Verde (Mr. Rowe). I knew them personally . Five of them had been in my Cabinet, I had invited them to enter my Cabinet.

I knew them initimately and knew them well. Those who had not been Cabinet 4823

April 6, 1976 Tape 1797 PK - 2 Mr. Smallwood: ministers I also knew very well. I knew them all. I think there were eight of them or seven, seven or eight, one absent. If I could judge,they were very pleased, they were very pleased with my offer.

And the Leader of the Party,who is still the Leader of the Party, the same hon. gentleman .said, "Now,look this is fine, But," he said, "you would not suggest that I will get up in the House this afternoon and go aboard it and attack it, would you?" I said~' Go on." He said, "This afternoon would be the wrong time for me to oppose it, because what will happen is that the Premier will make his statement, and that is what will get all of the attention." Naturally the Premier of a province makes a statement of province-shattering importance, not only would he get all of the headlines and radio and television attention that afternoon and that night, not only that, but he will get attention from coast to coast in our nation.

And not only that he will get attention in England, he will get attention in the United States. And so the Leader of the Opposition was quite right, he was quite correct to point out that it would be wrong, technically wrong,for him to make his statement for the party that afternoon following the Premier's announcement, because it would be lost All the attention would be centered on the Premier's statement. I said, "That is good tactics. That is good common sense." lie said, "Now I will make my statement tomorrow, Friday." And he said, "I will get the weekend publicity," which again made even better sense.

That made good sense. The Premier would make his statement on Thursday in the House here, it would obviously get tremendous attention throughout much of the \~orld, 4824

April 6, 1976 Tape 1798 IB-1 _MF.. S'l-iALLWOOn: because the company they were going to buy out was one of the world's important companies. It was a company in which the Queen of England was a shareholder. It was a company in which the great Churchill was a shareholder. It was a company in which five or six of the greatest corporations and banks, eight or ten of the greatest corporations in the whole of the United Kingdom were shareholders, and 1n which great banks, two great banks in Canada were shareholders, a great company in which the Suez Canal eompany was a shareholder, one of the world's great companies.

And naturally enough if the Premier of a little Province, Newfoundland, that had coaxed and beseeched that company to come into Newfoundland, if the Premier of that little Province were now to announce publicly to the world that this little Province was going to take them over, buy them out, it would inevjtahJy aruuse enormous interest and attention in and beyond the shores of Newfoundland. So it was a very sensible suggestion made by the Leader of the Oppos:l.tion, that he would defer his statement to the follow:l.ng rlay, Friday. And I concurred. I said, "Yes, I agree absolutely.

You are perfectly right." So I left very pleased that the Liberal Opposition,~rhich,remember, Yr. Chairman, was the very party that had created Churchill Falls -not the Falls -but the Corporation, the very party or the very government that had brought that vast assembly of world-wide companies to come to Newfoundland, to come to Labrador, to develop this Prov:l.nce without this Province having to spend a single dollar to have it done, the very party that had brought that about and the party whose government when they were in office had brought it about. It was completely appropriate and right.

Even though it was an unpopular thing at the moment, at that moment, among the people, it was perfectly right that they should take the stand that they were to take on the following day, on Friday. Everybody in that gathering as far as I could judge t~as a happy man, pleased and happy, happy to have a strong stand to take. Not just 4825

April fi, 1976 Tape 1798 IB-2 be a'''me too', yes, yes, 1-'r. Premier, yes, yes }1r. Government,t••e are with. you and we are eight strong and we are all for you and we think you are c\oin~C right," - as for instance we have heard already in this .. chamber w:!.thin recent (1ays ahout Come By Chance- Yes, ~·r. Government. Yes, '~r. !'inister, ves ,t.re ar:ree with you, ''e approve you, we think you have none right-unless Joey ls going to produce some documents that the mini~ter did not produce. Barring that we think you have clone right :• So it ,.puld have heen wrong for l"hem to s;~y,"Yes, }'r.

Government, you are perfectly right. It is true we built Churchill F;~lls. It is true ,.,e ha<' the help of Churchill himself. It l.s true we did this, but you are goh., .p: to undo all that. You are going to go out and borrow nearly $170 million and you are going to buy it out Sf' that you can ~evelop the Lower Churchill.'' no not forget, Hr. Chairman, ilo not forget, I ple;~cl ~rith you not to forget that when thP.

Pr.eynier did m;~ke his state~ent of the government's intention to nationalize, or in effect nationalize Chruchill Falls, "~en he made tli.at state111.ent 1t appeared a column long in The Evening Telegram, a statement sayi.ng that the reason they were doing it, the reason ~hey were goinr. to take over the Tlpper c:1Urchil1, Churchill Falls, the reason they had to do it, the reason that left them no choice Has this, that this was the only tvay they caul d !;et the Lower Churchill developed. Now that was factually not so,but that is the statement that the Premier ~ade.

It was so that they could get the Lower Churchill developed that they were going to take over the Upper Churchill and barroN the money to do it. I left my bon. friend's home that forenoon. He were there T thl.nk not much more than an hour a1 together. 482ti

April 6, 1976 Tape 1799 PK - 1 Mr; Smallwood : It was a perfectly simple matter~ "I will support you. I will go out and campaign for you v1hen the election comes. I will canvass the whole frovince for you. No,I will not be a candidate. You will not need me as a candidate." I could not serve in a Cabinet under a man that I had brought into my office and brought him up through one job after the other. I cannot go in and serve under him or serve under anyone. I could not serve under the present Premier in his Cabinet. I could not do it. He would not blame me. He would understand that.

Having been your lover, I cannot become your friend, Having been Premier,! cannot be just one of the boys in a Cabinet waiting on the initiative of the Premier who remember - and the hon. gentleman ought to remember,and if he makes perhaps a mistake at all, the mistake he makes is that of forgetting, of failing to remember that the Premier is the source and arbiter-of public policy, the source and arbiter. Now in becoming the source and that arbiter, if he is a sensible level-headed man, he will seek advice, he will seek guidance, he will seek information from his colleagues.

He will seek for it outside the circle of his colleagues. He will seek for it wherever he can get it, because he is the source and the arbitrator of public policy. So I could not sit in any Cabinet unless I were the source and the arbiter of public policy. And if I did not have that kind of faith in myself I would not be fit to be Premier. No man ought to be Premier who has not got the absolute conviction that he, he more than any man,is the one to be Premier. That is the sine qua non. Without that a maT' is a failure as a Premier.

So I suggested, "I will campaign for you, I will go through this Province and do everything in my power to get the Liberal Party back in power, back in office~ And I left feeling happy and feeling that the hon. gentlemen were happy. And on Thursday afternoon the hon. Premier made his classic and historic announcement,and the following day, "Now we were going to hear the Liberal Party's attitude! "But we did not. We were to hear it, but we did not. The following day 1~as Friday, which would give the good weekend coverage 4821

April 6, 1976 Tape 1799 PK - 2 Mr. Smallwood; to the Leader of the Opposition's statement, but no statement from the Leader of the Opposition. I ring the member for Bell Island, and I say to him, "What has happened? Ed did not say a word! He did not make any statement!" "No", he said, and he was pretty angry and annoyed by it. And he said, "Not only that, but he has told us all to shut our mouths and say nothing". "Well", I said, "now look Steve, he did not tell you to shut your mouths." "Well he said the same thing. to be quiet, that any statement to be made he wo*ld make-and no one else in the party.

The Liberal Party statement would be made by him and no other." And he had made this abundantly clear to the members of his party according to the present member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary). No word on Friday. No House, of course, Saturday. No T.V. Friday, no T.V. Saturday, no T.V. Sunday, no statements Sunday. }ionday comes. Not a word from the Leader of the Opposition. Tuesday, no word. Wednesday,no word. Thursday,no word. Friday,no word. Saturday,no word. The Leader of a party!

No position, taking no position on the mightest thing that had hit Newfoundland since the creation of Churchill Falls, Here was, in effect, its destruction. Not a word Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Firday, Saturday again, Sunday again and on Monday night, lo and behold! he does come on T.V. with the Liberal Party's declaration. Now this is not exactly a declaration that will go down in history, except maybe the history of infamy.

This is not one that will be in the textbooks for school students, for students at the University fifty years from now to read and study, you know, a brave and heroic and farsighted,wise statement of a wise statesman. No: That has to wait a couple of years. That has to wait a couple of years in this House for the same Leader to make a statement, which ought to have been made two years ago on the occasion to which I referred! Now it was not that kind of a ringing declaration of faith, not that kind of a ringing declaration, noble, ringing declaration of 482~

'· April 6, 1976 Tape 1799 PK- 3 ~1r. Smallwood : deep seated Liberal pride and Liberal philosophy. No. What was it? The whole Province had waited for nearly a fortnight to hear from the alternate Premier, the other Leader of the people, the other Leader of Newfoundland. There are two. The one who had spo ken, and the people ~•aited nearly a fortnight to hear from the other, and at 4829

April 6, 1976. HR. SMALLWOOD: Tape 1800 PJl - 1 last they heard it on T.V. \,le have a lot of questions we want to ask lvhen the House reassetr.bles. We have a lot of questions to ask. When the House opens we have ~ot some CJUestions to ask the Premier about th1.s r.hurchill ralls thinR. His ringing declaration was that thev hacl. a lot of questions to ask. That was thrilling. That was a deeply moving statement. We have a lot of questions to ask about Churchill Falls. That was the her,inning and that was the end of his declaration.

That was his offer of leadership, leadership of thought, of thinking to the Newfoundland people. !.Je have a lot of questions we are ~oing to ask when the House reassembles. We are going to ask some questions. 1-'e are p,oinp to ask the Premier a number of C)uestions. We have some questions to ask when the House reassemhles. That was his ringinp.; declaration of leadership. I did not vomit, ~fr. Chairman. I did not thro<r up.

Rut I made up mv mtnd that T could not support the party that woulcl tolerate that,because you can blame the leader all you liJre hut if his followers follow his iniunction to he silent and say nothing, let him he their only spokesman, if they disagree with what their spoJresman says they have a cure, they have a remeify. Tl-tey did not adopt the remedy. So I was left wtth no choice. I could not go Tory. There are so few Tories in Newfound­ land this afternoon. There might he one in this Chamber. He is not present at the moment. Torism is gone. It is dead.

There is no such thing left in Newfoundland today as Torism. So I could not go Tory anvhow because there Has no Tory Party to go to. If there had been I could not. Psycol op.;ically hoH can I, my lvhole life devoted to Liberalism. It is my religion almost. It is my philosophy, that is for sure. Yet I could not support the Libetal Party as tt was. I could not. Hhat could I do?

It brought to me a fresh, with overpowering effect, it brought to me this great lesson, that the Liberal Party in Newfoundland, my beloved Liberal Party that I had serve~ for twenty-three years as its leader and long years before that as a follower of the great leader, Sir Richard Squires, th<lt the p:reat Liberal Party lJas T.iberal no more except in name. It had the name T.iheral. That is why I did not support the T.iberal Party. That 4830

April f., 1 n7(, . Mil . s:IAu.wnon: Tape 1800 RJI - 2 is Hhv t havP made anll I continue to l'l&ke an effort to restore the great has ic principles of Li~eralism to the Liberal Party that I continu e to try to make the T.i~e ral Party lllOre than Liberal just in name alone. Now there was no document signed at that meetin g i.n my hon . friend ' s hous e. There was no treAty written out ami signed and witnes sed . It was not rut :l n ~r r itinp, . '1\ut it IJas as clear-cut as it could be .

If they woul d figh t the r.lmrch:ll1 Falls thing, if they would fight it, if they wow d op pos<' it, though it 1~as unpopular to do it amonr. the people - 1~hat the s;ove..,ment •:e re doinp, 1485 popular . I suppose the Premier knows thnt . Tf hP. did not know it before he made the decision he soon learned t hat it was 11 pop ular move at that time. Not now! The re is a lot of water undr.r the hridp,e since then,and a lot of t ens and tens of millions of dollars lashed out since then to pay the interest on the big debt that had to he contractell to borrow the money to huy out the C!lurchill Falls shares . 4831

April 6, 1976 Tape 1801 IB-1 l'R. SllALLWOOD: Ru~ at that time it was unpopular, what I wanted the Liberal Party to do was the tmpopular but the right th:l.ng ,and th:l s was agreed. Now it is no use for the hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde n'r. F. ~o~~) to say there was no agreement, there was no treaty, there was no bargaic struck. It was not put in any worc!s or anything like that. But, S:lr, I am no fool. I was not talking 1.dth strangers. I was not discussing this with men whom I could not measure, c:ould not weigh, did not understancl. I knew those men. Five of them I hail invited into my cabinet.

I know that we came to that, shall I say, agreement, shall I say,treaty, shall I say 1understant1ing, shall I say,pact - put what word you like. It was not a written treaty, it was not a wr:l.tten anything,but :It was understood and agreerl that I ~rould back them in the coming election. I would not take any

part in launching a new Liberal Party but instearl would campaign to get them elected to pm~er and do all I could to get them elected to power, prov:lrJed they would oppose the C.hurch:lll Falls desecration. There and then, before I left, the then I.eader of the Oppositicn, the present Leader of the Opposition, said, "It would be wrong for me to do this today, Thursday. The Premier w:lll come in and he uill get all the attention. I will wait and I will do it tomorrow,Friday.

Then I will get exclusive attention and it will be the weekend and it will be much better cioverage", which made good, practical, political sense. Now that is what was decided on. That :Is what was understood. That t~as the understanding tve had. If all members who were present get up and swear on the Holy Bible that I have lied, that I have not told the truth, I repeat this is what happened at that meeting as I have here described it. f.N HON. YE}IBF.R: Not true. It is true. It is true. no not get technical about it. There was no "~:ltten agreement. There was not even a. sort of

summary saying, "Hell let us see how far have we agreed. Let us see now. Now look, ~r. Sma]hmod, you have said that if we vrill oppose 4832

· April 6, 197n Tape 1801 IB-2 ~If'. SMAU,WOOT'>: this f:hurchill ralls thinr;, you will not have anything to do with forming a new Liberal Party. P.ight. Nm~ then you have also sai.cl not only that, but that you will go out and campaign to help us to r;et elected to paPer if we wHl oppose Churchill Falls. Right. lind the leader here has said that he will not attack the ileal toilay. He ~~11 leave the day to the Premier but tomorrow, Friday, he will. 1'1ght:' Nm~ it was not summed up in that way and :In those words. But th:f s was the clear cut and the unmistakable understanding that He came to that t:lav.

Now, there is at least one hon. member who I beHe,•e ~v:lll confirm that. But if there ~•a. s not even one, if there WRS not even one to confirm it, I hRve here told the truth- simple, p] a :In, unvarnished. I have not ailded to :!.t. I have not taken away anythlnr;. Tf there :l.s anyth .inr. that :l.s taken away it is unintentional. I have told all that I can remember. If some hon. member who wRs present says, "Yes, hut ilo you remember so and so and so and so," lf I remember T would say, "Yes, you are right. I had forgotten that." llut all that I clo remember J have repeated here now.

There might be one or two 11 ttle things, They are not important and they do not alter the case. If there is anyth:fng that I have not repeated here that J clo not recall, it is not someth:lnf! :In any case that would change the effect of th:ls Hhole a~>,reernent, this understanding that we c=e to. Now, I hrwe - I clo not kno~7, I suppose I have a fe~! 1'1inutes left, have I? }ffi. CHAIRN.AN: Ten. Ten minutes left. I do not think I want even all the ten. I have throuRh my 1.:1 fe done things that were wrong to do at the time T clicl them,and they turned out subsequently to be right.

In my J1fe too I have done things that seemed to be right when I did them,and turnecl out to he ~vrong, 'T'hts is life. Every human being has this kind of experience. You clo what vou think is right and it turn,; o11t to he ~·ronr. You do "hat you think is right and everybody sl'lys you are rirht l'lnd 1t turns out to be ~,rronr,or everybo,ly says you l'lre ~·ronp- and it turns out to be right; But whatever 483.3

April 6, 1976 Tape No. 1802 NM- 1 ~. Sl-1.1\LLWOOD: people think 1 especially if you are a political party, if you have the temerity, if you have the gall to want the Newfoundland people to make you the supreme government of the Province, if you have the gall to ask people to make you their Premier~then you must be a man surely who is willing to go through anything to be on the right. What was the classic saying that Diefenbaker quoted once or twice? Whet was it? '' I may not always be right but I will always be in the right, on the side of right~ How does it go? Anybody remember ? MR.

LUNDRIGAN: That is the gist of it . HR. S}'!ALLWOOD: It is to that effect. "I may not always be right, but you will never find me on the side of wrong~' I wish I could remember the precise words.

And that is surely, surely that is the duty of a Premier, surely that is the duty of a would-be Premier. what a glorious thing it would be if today the Liberal Party, my old friends, some of them are dear friends of mine-politically we are separated,by this distance at any not; ideologically I do not know how far we are separated - but some of them are dear friends of mine for whom I have profound respect and affection, but Sir, I say that a political party owes it to itself, owes it to the people, owes it to politics, owes it to the parliamentary institution, owes it to democracy itself - ~~ .

NEARY: To the two party system. HR. SMALLWOOn: Yes, and it owes it to the two party system~ it owes it to everything, to go out and take an ~popular stand if they believe it to be right.Because if they had 4one that today they would be in the position that I am in, I am the only one, except for one other, Mr. Andrelq Crosbie, He told me some months ago , six or eight months ago in my home, on a visit to my home, he made no bones about it; I said, "Andrew1 I am the only man in Newfoundland who fought this Churchill Falls thing,;" "No,'' he said, "you are not,JI"r.

Premier," I said,"Yes, I am." "No, you are not." ''Well~ I said, "who else?n He said, "I did." I was surprised, I said, 4834

April 6, 1976 Tape No. 1802 HT-1. SHAl.LWOOn: ''You did?" He said, "Yes, I did." 11\,ell," I said, "I never heard of it." "Hell," he said, "I did. I opposed it. I said it was vrong." "You did?" He said, "Yes, I did." "Where?" He said, "On radio. "You did?" He said, "I did': I said. "Thank God for you, Andrew if you did." Now it was his own brother who bulldozed it through. ~~. NF.ARY: It must be on VOWR. r~. S~ALLWOOD: It must be well known that the han. gentleman in that administration 1·1ho bulldozed through the Churchill Fa:).ls thing was the present hon.

Minister of Mines and Resouces ,_just as he bulldozed through the nationalizing, the stupid, mistaken. blundering nationalizing of the paper mill in Stephenville,and is greatly responsible-but I will have a better opportunity if they do call the debate ar,ain on Come By Chance, I bep;in to '"onder if they are goin~ to recall this debate again. I wonder are thev goinp; to have the debate or have they · decided just quietly to bury it.

You know,nearly a fortnight after Come Rv Chance closed, or the announcement was made, nearly a fortnight after the Minister of ~fines gets up and makes a two day speech here, Then nearly a "'eek passes - was it? - a number of days before the dehate is called again, The T.eader of the Opposition and I compete for the Speaker's attention, The Leader of the Opposition r,ets the attention, he speaks for an hour and a half and comes back at it another day, and you have not heard a "''ord of the debate since. That l'ill be all over and forgotten by the time I get a chance to state 1·•hat, "'hat arr. I F;oing to state?

Am I going to defend closing Come By Chance? Am I going to accept the hon. minister's statements, the letters that he tabled and the letters that he did not table, some of which I have1 Is that what I aJII going to say,as the Leader of the Opposition did? The T.eader of the C1pposition got up and he read out balance sheets, the loss in this month, the loss in that month, the loss - as if vre did not know about the losses. }~. NEARY: He said the minister made a strong case. 483o

April n, FlU>. '!'ape 1803 1U1 - 1 HR. SHALLHOOD: 'lm• so far as I am concerned I state d the truth ahout this meeting at the hon. gentleman's home. If hon. members to1ho were present w11nt to f?;O on talking about it,well and good. I have said my say and unless I am forced and driven by debate to go back at it I do not intend to. I have stated my case. I have stated it with simple truth. That is exactly <vhat happened. I am sorry to r.od, I am sorry to God today, tlr. Chairman, that they did not keep the understanding.

I would have been out working like a Trojan to elect the Liberal Party to power and to1orking like a Trojan to make them a genuinely Liberal Party. But it did not happen that way,but not from my doing. I was prepared to keep my side of the understanding and it was the other side that did not. SOHE HON . ml'tBERS: Hear, hear~ HF. T',OBERTS: 11r.. r.hairman, having listeneci to the remarks of the ~entleman from 'lwillingate(t1r.

Smallwood) it would have - and I am sorry if I was out of the Chamber for a moment, but I assure the han. gentleman that I ~ms listening al thou~·,_ I tv as at another place doing there <•hat he 1o1as doing in here, namely, voiding myself. Mr. Chairman, the speech made by the hon. gentleman is one that obviously requires some comment from me. It would he easy, Sir, to say what I feel I should say in anger or with passion,hecause I have just sat and listened to myself being attacked quite violently and very unfairly.

But I do not think that would be right or appropriate. lo/hat I have to say I say more in sorrow than in anger. I think the hon. gentleman from T<rillingate n1r. Smallwood) is telling the truth as he sees it or as he recalls it, as he believes it to be. It is a matter of regret that the facts do not support him. It is a matter of regret that he has completely misremembered what happened at a meeting, a private meeting,until it <o1<IS revealed, and not by me or by any of my colleagues. I t:'link he believes it.

P.ut if he looks back over the record, as I have, he ,,,i] l find out that he has iust for?;otten complete] y the entire C'o let me take a moment of so of the Committee's time, Sir. I am not surr ••hat it has to do with the estimates of the ~lin"s and Fnergv ''inister. 4 Q 3 . ~. \) 0

1\pr:ll 6, 1°76. ''R. ROBERTS: Tapf' 18()3 Rll - 2 P,ut sincP •,1e havP hecn off on this tack, and I am sorry I was not here yesterday wlten it hep:an 1 hut I •.ras down at the, what? - the wreckage of the Come By Chance thing where it turns out the creclitors are goinf!: to gPt one cent on the dol LH if they are 1 ucky. ~IR. 'lFARY: You went to collect your $1'10. '~Tt. ROP.rR'fS: Yes,I was there. Actually I did not even get to the meeting. T sat throup:h the first meeting, ~~r.

Speaker, of Provincial Ttefining r.ompany Limiterl which '.rent on for until well about six o'cloc~.r sat at the press tahlf' and listenecl and then I had to go on home. I am not so much worrierl about the .';I'1'1 the 1.iberal Party of this Province are owed A.S I am 11hout the companies that are going to go bankrupt because they hel ieved that tl1P.v were de.!tlinp; with a financially solid enterpri.se at r.ome J'.y r.hance. ()f course :l.n the event it was not - w'latever it was - it Has not a financial 1 y solid enterprise. Mr.

Chairm11n, the position is this -and J. am not for ·the moment ~oinp: to touch on what passerl at the meeting 1 although I shall come back to th11t. J. i'lm i ust I!Oing to point out for the benefit of the Committee, tl1e hon. member for THi 11 inp.ate (~fr. Small Hood) his memory has failed him. N m~ 1 1.Jil 1 - ~m. NEI\T~Y: Do not be so foolish. 'I"R. RO!lER'fS: ~'r. r:hainnan, the p:entleman from LaPoile(Mr. \leary) has n1 rendy pone too far in another place in the 11ouse. If he ,.Jishes to spe>.ak in this del1<'!.te he has of course the same rip;ht as we all do. I "ould RsY. him, ll r. Chairman, ~~R.

CJIAIR"~An: I would as\: the bon. member for LaPoile if he Hould refrain from interruptin p:~pl.e ase. 'IR. RC\HFRTS: Th.anl~ you, Hr. Chairman. The hon. member from TlJillingate' s memory - anrl 1 am being l'inrl, Sir. I do not thinl<' he has deliberately misrepresented it. I do not thin]~ this attack comes just on me. Oh: I could m11k.e out a case i.n support of that 1-,ecam;e of course the bon. Rentleman has hPen some•1hat jnconsistent in his political actions over the last 4837

April 6, 1976. Tape 1&03 Rll - 3 MR . ROBERTS: year or so; running for the leadership of the Liberal Party, which was his right, and getting trounced,which was the Liberal ~arty ' s ri~ht :and then starting his own party after -all sor ts o'f under - the ­ table, behind-the-scenes negotiations to try to a ttempt to do by a so-called coali t ion what cou,ld not be done by the conven t ion. But that is another sto r y and I d.o not believe - although many peop l e rio, Sir - let me say I do not believe that iS wha t motivated the hon . member for Twillingate .

I thi nk tha t he is stating the t r uth as he r.eme!Tlbe.rs it . The tradgedy, Sir, is that he does not remember it accurately and he has not taken the trou bl e or t he effort to l ook up the facts . Now, SiT, the facts are this . The meeting in question was held on ~la rch 21 which was a Thursday morning . The hon . member has given us a rather one-sided version of it . l suspect h.e and his coll eagu e , the gentleman fro·m LaPoile (~ir . Neary) will probably h ave the same version of it . All I say - HR . Nf:.ARY: I was there . MR . llOBERIS : l agree. The hon . gentleman was t here .

All 1 say, Sir, is that there were ei~ht or n ine men presen t at that meeting - HR. NEARY: Se'(en . 4838

April 6, 1976, Tape 1804, Page 1 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: There were eight or nine men present at that meeting, Sir, of whom there are still sitting in the House the gentleman from Fogo (€apt.Winsor), the gentleman from Trinity-Bay de Verde (Mr. F.B.Rowe), the gentleman from Burgee-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons), the gentleman from LaPoile (Mr. Neary), as he now is, and the gentleman from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood), as he now is. And each of these men can give their version of the truth and each will tell the story as he sees it, and we will let the people judge.

I might add that the one independent examination ther~ is of it, to my knowledge, was in a recent issue of the r.anadian Magazine,a publication which is not circulated in this Province, but a publication of repute nonetheless. I am not sure if every hon. member in the House has seen that. I have a copy or two for anybody who would like to read it. It is a most interestin~ examination of the events by an independent .i ournalist, a gentleman from Toronto who came down and I think made quite an exhaustive study.

I know he spoke to a number of other people who were at that meeting including my friend and colleague Mr. William Rowe,who was there. I am not sure if he spoke to Mr. Paul Thoms or - no, Mr. Woodward was not there -Mr. Paul Thoms or Mr. Herb Gillett, at that stage, respectively the members for Bonavista North and Twillinga~e. But if he did not he is, of course, at liberty to do so. tfR. CRIJSBIE: Is that the one with the stin~ers? MR. ROBERTS: Yes. Yes.

The one where I am sitting on the hon. gentleman's knee and it says, "When Joey went down for the third time he took Roberts with him." Well I am not sure whether the hon. gentleman has gone down for the third time, or the fourth or whether it is his last or not,and I am not sure he has taken me with him, but anyway, that is the

article in question, A most entertaining one, A good piece of writing. Mr. Speaker, the facts however are these: The bon. gentleman seems to have two points in what he considers 4839

April ~. 1976, Tape 1804, Page 2 -- apb }fR. RJlllF.RTS : to be his crushing indictment of me. And, of course, the crushing indictment is mainly because of the fact that when it was put to a ballot both in the convention and in the country, the hon. gentleman did not come out on top. But, ~~r. Chairman,the meeting was held on Thursday morning and I have here - I do not keep a diary but I do keep a brief note •.

I think it is a habit I picked up from the hon. gentleman when I worked as his executive assistant and as his parliamentary assistant, as I did for a number of years - just a brief note of where I have been on a given day or any events. The entry for Thursday March 21st, in my very own crabby handwriting - my colleagues in the caucus told me they cannot read my handwriting hut T can read it -says, "Met J.R.S" and then, "Caucus." J.R.S., a very famous set of initials, the hon. the gentleman for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood).

Then it goes on, and this refers to the statement the Premier made in the House that afternoon. The hon. gentleman's memory has completely left him. I did not think it would ever happen but on this point and this event it has.

"BRINCO to be expropriated." And the statement the Premier made here in this House on the afternoon of Thursday the 21st. of ~arch, 1974 - and I have a copy of it here - was that the Government of this Province intended to acquire - and I think any hon. member opposite can confirm this - intended to ac~uire the assets of RRI~CO Limited and if they could not acquire them any other way they would ask the House to authorize their expronriation. And indeed, I believe legislation was put on the Order Paper although it was never called for debate. r.fR. ROl-lE: That is right! MR. OOODY: 'MR.

RO'!W.RTS : We had a bill ready. The bill may have been ready for all I know hut T never saw the bill. I know that the notice was put on the Order Paper and I know this was the statement made by the Premier. So :et us recollect, Mr. Chairman~ On the morning we had a meeting - and I will come back to my recollection 4840

April 6, 1976, Tape 1804, Page 3 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: of what passed at that meeting and it is substantially different from the bon. gentleman~. But all I want to point out is that I think his memory is going. I do not think he remembers. I think it is coloured by what he wishes to reme.mber and by subsequent events. I believe he is being truthful, there is no question at all there. I think he is telling the truth as he sees it,• as he recalls, as he believes it to be.

You can say as he knows it to be,although hts knowledge is not correct - but on the morning there was a meeting and at that meeting certain measures were agreed. What was agreed must be a matter for everybody to judge for himself but I say again that my colleagues who were there are at liberty to stand and say what they wish as to their recollection of the meeting,and I know each of them will give a truthful account. I took a certain position there,whicb was that the Liberal Party - which was the feeling of my colleagues - would .fight expropriation but that we would not be nrepared to fight a purchase. MR.

SMALLWOOD: That is not true. MR. ROBERTS : Mr.Gbairman, the bon. gentleman - will be withdraw that remark, please? He has no right to say tbat,as I understand the rules of this House. MR. SMALLWOOD: It is not correct. MR. CHAIRMAN: I would ask the bon. the member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) to withdraw that remark, please, MR. NEARY: MR. SMALLWOOD: I would like to verify that it is not correct. I withdraw the word 'untrue' and substitute the words 'not correct'. 1-ffi. ROBERTS: That is fine, Mr. Chairman. I thank the bon. gentleman for his withdrawal, and again we will let - MR.

NEARY: And I second the motion. MR. ROBERTS: I have already shown that the hon.gentleman's recollection of events is just gone. He just does not remember th1.np;s1

f\pril F, l97fi "'11pe 1805 In-1 bec11nRe ~1e h11cl the Premier's statement that Clay as being one of purch11sc when :Jn fact that t·ms the l'remier's second statement. It ''as !'111de on a 'T'hurs<l~y the week after. I have both state ments here in front of me. nne wns mac1e on r arc:1. 28, 197.6 in this Fouse.

Tha t t ~ aR the one ,,rhere it ,.,as announceil that Brinc0 han a~reec1 t0 sell certnjn of their as~etR inclucljng the:Jr share,; in ('T<'T,C'o ;md indndinp; the :I r r:i ghts, whatevE'r tl, ev l"ip;ht be, to the T,ower r:hurchill development to the rovernll'ent. '!'h11t v111S the seconit statement. '~'he f:Jn;t stlltement, Yr. Chairman, "'RS macle 11 t••eek previous on Thurs<'ay Farch 21 in '·lh:i ch it Has ,;a:lcl - and I read, I believe thiR is the relevant portion - pare 15 quot:Jn~ a telegram which the Premier sent to ~·r. ".n. '-'11lhoJl;mcl, ~'r.

T>ohert r'n1hoJJanc1, n0t }'r. !{ill i<lm "ulholland ,anrl sent also to r•r. BiJ 1 }rulhollancl in acld:J tion to "r. l'obert ~'ulhoJland,and to Sjr Val Duncan,t-.mo are,! assume,the three principal agents or men involved in the Brinco · RTZ, ll.io Tlnto-Zinc organization. "Thank you for your telex", the Premier said, "receiverl at 9:10 P.". ~'arch 20." That tJas the ilay before this statement we.s mane in the House. "Your offer iR unacceptable to the Province. I propose to announce to the llouse. nf IIRs.eJTlhly ann the people of Netvfoundland tom('lrrm .r the full iletai1s of our nepotiations.

At that time leeis)at1on v.•1J 1 he intror1Hcerl to vest the sh11res of Brinco in the Province at the pr1cP of $7.07 per share." The next day the Premier.true to his undertaking in this,c!:Jr' make that statement in the House and il:lcl, IIR I understand it, - noti .ce vlas given. The 1-':Jn:lster of ~ ':lnes and l'.nergy tells us bH) s were prepared. Tirey were never tabled :In the Tlnuse. They were never debaten. Well, ''hat happened in the inter i m? I just want to tell the han. gentleman because he. has never none me the courtesy of askinp: me ,.,rhy no statement «as mac'e. I w:Jll tell him why.

On Thursday morn:lni! there is a meeting. The timing :Is important because the hen. ~entle.m;m 's memory - and al 1 we are t11lking about is memory here - 4842

April 6, 197fi Tape 1805 IB-2 there are no records of th:ls unfortunately. T '~ish there Has. I wish there •ras a tape record:lnp; because then we woulrl soon see who was correct and who HRS not. But in the morning a meeting :l.s held and certain thinrs are agreed. l~e can all agree that it was resolved by everybody that we would fight expropriation. '!'here is no argument on that part of the recollection. ~'t!. SHALJ..Woon: f'R . ROBERTS : Oh, come on, come on. Stop splitting ha:lrs. ~r. Speaker, the hon. gentleman from Tw:lllingate (Mr. Smalh10od) may say what he wishes in the debate ,but in hts turn.

I have sat and listened to hi~ give h:ls version. I am being charitable and k:l.nd to h:l.m .whE'n 1 say that J bel:teve it is his memory ~rh:l ch has failed him hecRuse - ''T'. NEAl'Y: You have not p:ot it in your heart to be unkind. ~'T'. POB~PTS: No, T do not have it in my heart, Sir, to be cruel or unkind to the pentleman from T•rillingate (l"r. Smallwood). Sir, I do not have it in me. I feel sorry. I think he is a walking political tragedy,but that has nothing to do w:l.th the point I am making. ~m. NEARY: You are a political disaster. MR. ROBERTS: And I might say the hon. gentleman for Lal'oile (~lr.

Neary) - MR. NEARY: Here we go with the nastiness again. MR. ROBE:RTS: 'T'he hon. gentleman for LaPoiJ e, }fr. Speaker - }'T'. NEARY: All through the session so far - 1-'Tl. ROBEPTS: 'l'he hon. gentleman for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), '1-'r. Speaker, throup:hout this entire debate voted w:lth the Liberal Party, stayed with the U .beral Par.ty,and ran for nomination in the Liberal Party, so I think it is fair to say either he agreed with •rhat the Liberal Party was doing or he was - }fR. NEARY: I make my own statements. ~IR . ROBERTS: Yr. r.hairman, he can make his own statements. 1-'P.

NEARY: I have made tltem by the thousands, all my own statements. }fll • ROBE PTS : 'lr. Chainnan, I am just pointing to the facts. The hon. 4843

April 6, 1976 T11pe 1M5 In-3 "T'. l>fl!IFl'TS: member rli~ not leave the Liberal Partv on th1s issue . Intlee~ he di~ not speak on this issue ar,ainst the positio n the Liber~l Part y hl\c! ~al-en. YR. NEARY: 1 made my state~nt. ~1'. P"llET'TS: Therefore I hel1eve, :tr . rh11irman, it is fair to say that the hon. r.eritleman on t~e record a~ree~ with the position. ne thnt liS it lMY or not, he can make his own state~nt and ~re wHJ Listen to what he has to say. T am deal:lnp, ,.,ith the gentleman from Tw:!ll:!npate ( 'r . Smnll~<'ood) .

On 'l'htt'rsrlav afternoon the PreMie r l!lacle a statement in the Pouse and his stateMent, t have referrecl to the ~ist of it . It is there if anvhoclv wmts to read it. It ~~as Quite a lengthlv statement, quite an :IMportant st;ttement and he said, "llrinc:o wen~ to he expropriated and they were to he expropr:!atec! by virtue of the le~ islative po~'er of thi:c; llon!'e . " Now, what hAppened then 1 because 1\rinco were not expropriatecl, llrinco have not heen exp r opr:l~tecl llr:lnco sold. ~old what? They solr 11 la r ~e part of their assets . They did not sell all . Brinco are still active in this Province.

They ~~re clown in 484 4

April 6, 1976 Tape 1806 PK - 1 Mr. Roberts: Makkovik the other day in the district of my hon. friend and colleague, the gentleman from Eagle River (Mr. Strachan. They are talking of developing the uranium mine there because Brinex, the BRINCO subsidary,has certain rights to uranium there. They have spent a couple of years trying to develop out in the district of Port au Port,represented by my friend and colleague from Port au Port (Mr.

Hodder), the cement industry based on the limestone deposits in the Aguathuna area 0 Jl.nd indeed the only thing that has prevented that was a sudden turnabout in the economic facts as they appl y to the cement industry of the world. And what was an e cono~ i call y ~ ttractive proposition became an economically impossible proposition, and therefore the great cement development out in Port au Port has been postponed, I hope no more than that . But BRINCO were not expropriated. BRINCO sold .

I stood in this House and I said I thought BRINCO got too much for their money or, I am sorry, too much for what they were paid. The government paid more than they should have, and I still believe that to be correct. That is only my opinion ;.; The fact remains that BRINCO sold their shares in CFLCo, and BRINCO sold their rights. And that sale AN HON. MEMBER: l"niler pressure . MR. ROBERTS: I am sorry? AN HON. MEMBER: 1Tnc1er pressure. HR. ROBERTS: MR. SMALLWOOD: MR . ROBERTS: Yes. But they could have said, no we will not sell. They were bulldozed. The hon. gentleman can say what he wants.

But I say, Sir, BRINCO sold, and I have had conversations with principals of BRINCO since in the normal course of my day's "work, not this day, of course , and while they may not have been - certainly they did not want to sell. They wanted to make that great development themselves. They sold, and they may not have done so willingly in the initial instance, but when they realized that they had no choice,that this House had the right to acquire those assets. And that is our right, 484~

April 6, 1976 'Iape 1806 PK - 2 Mr. Roberts: Mr. Chairman, whether the bon. gentleman from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) likes it or not. It is the right of this Rouse, Sir, under the constitution of this country to acquire these assets if we wished, and every hon. member could stand in his place and speak whether aye or nay, and then could vote either aye or nay. Whether the gentleman from Twillingate likes it or not the fact remains that the people of this Province have consistently denied him political power since 1966 . And that is a fact. They may not have given me political power either, and that is a fact.

But I am not bemoaning it. I accept that, and we will see ~1hat time brings. But the fact remains,this Rouse had the right, and BRINCO knew that. And BRINCO said, all right, we will sell, and they did sell. And they have continued to do business in this Province since, as far as I know amicably. They have certainly given no indication of the contrary. Whether or not we should have bought CFLCo_· that is another story. And we should debate that, and if it is wished to be rlebated I an all for debating it. But what I did and what my colleagues did, we did.

The point I am making, Sir, for the benefit of the gentleman from Twillingate, whose memory seems to be going, at long last seems to be going, is that that afternoon the Premier made a statement saying expropriation. But why did I not respond to that? Why did I not respond? WelLI will tell you why, Mr.

Chairman; and there is no secret in this, I knew at that time when the Premier made the statement that BRINCO were prepared to discuss sales, because the day before the meeting in my colleague's home.and there is no secret about this; the Minister of Mines and Energy knew it, I think he knew it at the time, there was no secret about it ·· I had been in Montreal at the request and invitation of BRINCO.,and with the knowledge of the gentleman from Twillingate - MR. NEARY: Not your caucus. MR . ROBERTS: Not? True! True. But with my colleague and 4846

April 6, 1976 Tape 1806 PK - 3 ~lr. Roberts; the then !louse Leader, the gentleman from White Bay South,as it then was, Nr . \Iilli am Rowe, and we had had a long meet ing with Sit: Val Duncan , ·..1h0 has since died a great loss , a g-reat loss- with Sir Val Duncan and ~1r . lnlliam Mulholland .

And at that meeting BRINCO made it quite clear that they realized the Legislatu-re had the power to expropriate BRINCO, not CFLCo,ironically enough , because CFLCo was incorporated under the authority of Federal law , But BRINCO was incorporated under Newfoundland law , and this Legislature had the j'e>wer at la"', nnd 8rinco , I have no doubt, had the best la~o'Yers they could obtain ,and they would be good indeed , and that was their opinion . And nobody could challenge that, it is a solid opinion, that if this LeRislatu re had passed

an act saying, all the shares of BRINCO are vested in them, the mittister of this or that, that law would have !,een good . And BRINCO, Sir Val Duncan and Mr. William ~tulholland, who has since become Chairman of the Board of the Bank not Chairman , t am sorry, President and Chief Operating Officer ,! believe is his title, of the Bank of Montreal , the Province ' s main bankers , have been­ what? - sine~ the bank crash of 1894 , as far as 1 know still are,an amicable relationship , lend the Province money every day to finance the 484f

April 6, 1976 Tape 1807 PK - 1 Mr. Roberts: on-going bills. I knew then as did my colle~gue, Mr. William Rowe, as d·id the caucus when we returned 1 that BRINCO were considering selling, and that is why we made no statement, nor did we make a statement until the following week when the Premier came in and announced that in fact BRINCO had sold. So the hon. gentleman from Twillingate's (Mr. Smallwood) entire case, Sir, with respect to my willingness or unwillingness to make a statement founders on the simple fact that he forgot there were two statements one week apart. It is that simple, Sir.

And he can say what he wishes, he has that right, and I believe he is saying the truth as he believes it to be or he sees it to be. But, Sir, the facts do not support him. And these are not matters of recollection, these are matters, Sir, the records of the House will confirm it, the journals of the House will confirm it, any member of this House who was in the Cabinet at that time will confirm it. Ilhave copies of the statements here. March 21, the afternoon of the meeting at my friend's house on Taylor Place, BRINCO to be expropriated. That is what my note says.

And then the following Thursday that the Premier made a statement that BRINCO were not going to be expropriated after all. That BRINCO after some intensive negotiations in Hontreal,that BRINCO had agreed to sell CFLCo's shares and had agreed to sell the Lower Churchill rights that the House was to be asked to authorize the loan and the expenditure. And that was done, and in due course legislation came through. And as I recall it no hon. member of this House voted against that legislation. Not one. I know I did not. And if I knew then, only what I knew then,I would do it again. And let that be quite clear. Mr.

Chairman, that is the fact. ~1at went on at the meeting hon. gentleman can give their own versions. The gentleman from LaPoile (Mr. Neary),who has conceived an intense dislike for his former colleagues - MR. NEARY: Not true. HR. ROBERTS: Well he says - I accept it. I accept it. HR. NEARY: A point of order, Sir. Mr. Chairman, you are not allowed to impugn l!lotives in this hon. House. Sir, I love and

April 6, 1976 Tape 1807 PK - 2 Hr. Neary: adore my former colleagues, I cannot say the same about the Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I do not think there is much point of order there, unless Your Honour wishes to make a ruling. ~IR. ROWE: Love squabbling now. MR. ROBERTS: All I can say is that if politics makes strange bedfellows, lovers makes strange speeches. But, Mr. Chairman, the fact remains - ~m. NEARY: Would you rule on that point of order, Mr. Chairman? MR. CHAIRMAN: I do not perceive ~ p~int of order has been raised that I could rule upon . MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr.

Chairman. My recollection of what went on at the meeting is quite simple,and it differs from the han. gentleman from Twillingate's in two important respects. And let me say that he is piously parading. He knovs that his view is not shared by others. He knows his recollection is not shared by others, and so he attempted to head that off at the pass by saying, "Oh others will disagree". Well, Sir, I say the word of any han. member is every bit as good as any other han. member's.

And I say to the House, to the Committee,or to the people of this Province,go ask the men who were there, and then every man there will say his recollection of what happened and we will abide by the results. My recollection differs diametrically from the han. gentleman's on two important points. First of all, Sir, there was no mention of a second Liberal Party or a splinter party. at all! MR. ROWE: True! True! No mention MR.

ROBERTS: The hon. gentleman conceived that thought only wnen - and if there was, Sir, why did he seek the leade&ship of the Liberal Party quite publically six months after the events in question, and went through the entire campaign without once mentioning what he now conceives to be such a terrible thing? I mean, Mr. Chairman - 4849

April 6 , 1976 Tape 1807 Mr . Roberts: - how ~he hon. azmber from Twillingate could - I know tba~ consistency, I ·know that consistency, Sir, - PK - 3 ~m. NEARY: The Leader of the Opposition sounc:ls l i Ire he has menta l t'lenopause ! HR. ROBER:rS: - I know that consistency, ~!r. Chairman, is the hobgoblin of small minds. ~lr. Chairman, the bon. gentleman from Twilllngate, you know, h:is public ca1:eer explodes what he is attempting to say. Mr. Chairman, the fact remains that there was no mention of a second party as I recall it. NR . ROI'J'E: That is right. ~I'R .

ROBERTS: And my other colleagues can say what they wish as to what they recall. And secondly, Sir, there was no agreement, absolutely none, as to what would happen i.f BRINCO agreed to sell. And BRINCO did agree to sell, S:ir. You could say it was a happy or an unhappy sale. We all know the circumstances. But the fact remains that BRINCO agTeed to sell. They 4850

t\pril fi, 1976 Tape No. 1808 Nl'l- 1 Mp. R<1Bf.RTS: ,.,ere not expropriated, And there is a picture do~m :in the office of my friend, the 'finister of ~ines and Energy. I was down there the other day with my colleagues from Port aux Port and Stephenville, the three of us went by appointment to see the minister, to talk ahout some problems at the I.inerboard mill in Stephenville. ''y colleagues representing the area had an ohvious interest and they asked me to accompany them and I ~id~and there is a Picture on the wall of the han. gentleman's office, a picture of him and I believe is it Bill Hulholland, "r.

Hilliam l'(ulhollanrl. Nr. ?.fulholland happily smiling like the rheshire cat,except that all you see is a bit of paper but I am told it Has a cheque for one hundred and sixty-odd millions of dollars,and the minister conftrms that in fact is what the picture portrayed. So TlPT.NCn may not have been anxious to make the sale but they ""'re damned happy, Sir, '~hen they got the price of the sale. i\ndthe fact remajns that BPINCO, an honourable and a fine company,have continued to do business in this Province and I hope they long Hill.

Whether or not the assets should have been acquired., that is another story.But that is not what my friend rose to dehate. J1y friend rose to make what amounts to quite a strong attack on me. I am not 'mrried about that but I do w<mt to sf't the record straight. Because my han. friend'.s memory, Sir, iR fai]ine him. And let me also say one other thing, Sir. The hon. gentleman feels that I somehow should have rushed into print, or rushed into ''ords 0 Well I have explained why I waited a week and why I would do i.t ap;ain. NEARY: I wish you had told the caucus at the time. ~.

RnBBRTS: The han. gentleman says he wishes I had told the caucus at the time. All I will say,'3ir, is he served in that caucus, he remained in that caucus, he served in this House, he soup,ht a Liberal nnmination,and it was only after he lost the Liberal nomination that he Hent off as a so-called independent.

April 6, 197fi Tape No. 1808 m<- 2 MR. P.OBF.nTS: So his career gives the lie to that statement as to what he felt. Sir, he says he can~ot be silenced and I believe him. God. knows, everybody in this House knows he cannot be silenced. We have seen that. lle cannot even silence himself. And I say I npree he cannot be silenced and in that case how does he explain his silence nnless he acquiesced, obviously he acquiesced, Sir, and there is nothing more need to be said. He can say tJhat he wants hut he cannot F;et around that fact. Nme, "r.

Chairman, why did we delay a week? 1-lell,I knew full tvell Hhat was happening. I knew full well what t~as happening. I knetJ thnt Bl'INr.n :mrl talks were on. I was not privy to the negotiations. My hon. friend from THillingate (Hr. Smallwood) might have been. And I could say something if my hon. friend wants about hOtJ that meeting was arranged and who spoke to him in addition to the gentleman from LaPoile (~!r. Neary). But, Mr. Chairman, the fact remains, Sir, that the reason I did not speak was it would have belm wrong to speak until the facts were lmmm.

It t·muld have been wrong to shoot from the lip, which is tvhat the hon. gentleman from TwHlingate seems to want. Sir, our joh as an Opposition is to oppose,and we do oppose, but to oppose responsibly and to oppose as we see it,and by heavens we will anstver to the Honse, to our constituents, to the Province and above all to our m,rn consciences. .hnd my conscience is clear and T knm·r that that of my colleague's is. The hon. r,entleman from 'l'willingate, Sir, I believe in his mm mind is equally clear in his own conscience. He would not have said the things he said otherwise.

Now, Sir, I could go on but I do not need to. I thin!: I have shm·rn that on the facts the han. gentleman from 'l"N'illingate, t·Jhl'ltever his motives- .~nd I am not allot·red to question the,, T am allowed to believe what I tvant,but I cannot <]uestion them •. 485£:

~- Tape ~o. 1808 f,jM - 3 MR. l'(1JlF.l'TS: my exposition of the facts, I hel:f.c>ve,sl-to1•s that the hon. gentleman's memory is failin~~: him. He just forgot. T say that charitably hecause othcnvise I have to say he ignored the facts,and I do not helieve for a moment he would ignore the facts. I do not believe for a moment he 1vould misrepresent. As 1 said I think it is a tragedy. I really do. I followed the hon. gentleman happ:f.ly and proudly, Sir, served :In M.R Cabinet, served on his personal staff,and when he retired sought election to succeed h:lm as Leader of the Liberal Party and was elected leader.

Then ,,•hen he asked me to stand aside for the Draft Smallwood l<'ovement, I demurred, and I guess lt 1vas as of that mol'lent that the hon. gentleman's affection for me regan to evaporate,and of course it has evaporated nm• to the po:!.nt where he is sitting in this House trying to sabotage this party. Hell that is his right. He spoiled the election,hut that is another story. And whenever the Premier gets around to calling those three by-elections, I hope he will shortly, those people in 5onavista North district and in Ferryland district - PRE!'IER MOORES: Not for this reason. t'P..

R(1BF.RTS: No,r hope not for this reason . But one of the things w.> ''ill see,of course, the hon. gentleJnan will have candidates, the Prem:ler will h<1ve candidates, the Liberal 'Party will have candidates chosen hy nominations,and tve 1vi.ll let the electorate cecide, Sir, and it will he very interesting to see just what the people - and the interesting thing about those three districts, and I knoH the 'Premier v7ill agree, is that they are a microcosm of this Province - PRn~IEF >II)() RES: I would like to have those by-elections so that you - trR.

P.OBEl'.TS : The only Hay tl~e Premier can win any of the three, Sir, is to have only his own candidate in it. PREMIER l100RES: He 1vill have play-offs. 4853

Tape No . 1808 Nl'' - 4 >'r> f>08F.~TS: >Ar. f.hairman, mayhe we should have the play downs. The Premier knows a lot ahout playing off and played down but, Mr. C:hairman - Pl>£N1 EP 1-'00R.ES: I have not said a word. ~fP. . roSF.PT<;: ~'r. Chairman, the Premier knO'Ws a lot about - he was acti ve ln the Cee Bees.was it not? The Cee Bees arc the team. The Premier was very active for years in sponsorin g them, T do not know if he coached them,hut very gene rously supported, very generously on the North side of Conception Bay. The grasshopper from Carbone ar. '"R. ~013F.f.TS : I am sorry .

PREJo!TER !I.OOP.ES : The Cee !lees before the P. C.'s . ·~. ROSRPTS: The Cee Bees before the P.C.'s. Well,I believe Newfoundland comes befo re both. '!J'. ROWE: Lool< •·rhat happened to the Cee Bees ' ~I'R . FOnF.RTS: Yes, the Cee Bees have since gone out of busin ess · h:1ve they? - or gone downhill steadily. Rut, ~!r . Chairman, that is all hy the hy-the-by . The hon. gentleman from TwilHngate (l'r . Smallwood) for ~;hatevcr reasons, you know, I do not know ~That M.s reasons ~re~and we can all speculate

April 6, 2976, Tape 1809, Page 1 -- apb MR. ROBF.RTS: for ourselves, but it is a shame in a way that the limited time of the Committee has to be taken up hy personal vendett~s from the gentleman from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood). I do not think anybody is the least bit interested in what he has to say on the ooint because it is not new. The gentleman from LaPoiJ.e (Mr. Neary) will probably say a few words, and that is of course his right, and we will listen. Some of my colleagues may wish to. But I think it is a matter of regret that an important topic, the Mines and Energy Estimates,are waiting.

And even more to be regretted, that the limited time which the Committee have under the rules - seventy-five hours - is running,and it is running with personal vendettas I thought had been resolved at the ballot box by the Liberal Party a year past, or a year and-a-ha.lf -well, what is this? - a year and-a-half past~at a convention here in St. John's, a convention that the whole Province saw on television, when the hon. gentleman, as was his right, sought re-election to the leadership and was defeated by-what was it? - 400 votes to 300 on the second ballot,in round numbers. Re was defeated.

And the hon. gentleman could not accept that, He could not accept the verdict of the Liberals. He thought it was somehow not representative of the country. He went to the country with his o~m party, got himself elected and three of his colleagues, cost the Liberal Party enough seats to cost them the government,and as a result nut the Tories back in office. ¥Jell, history will 1 udge him and I know he is content to bide_ bv the judgement of history.

It is to be regretted that he insists on raising the matter in Committee, delaying the work of the Committee, delaying the work of the House on what is at best an intramural difference of opinion. But since he raised it, Sir, I had to answer. The hon. gentleman's entire attack was founded on mistaken facts. Recause I am being quite charitable, because I have a residual affection for the hon. gentleman and a deep respect for what he has achieved for this Province in the 4855

April 6, 1976, Tape 1R09, Page 2 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: past. HR. F. B.ROWF.: Hear, hear! MR. ROBF.RTS: I chose to believe that he was mistaken in his facts, not that he chose to ignore them. But, Sir, let me say again that what I did and my colleay,ues did in the month of March 1974, or any other time with respect to the Churchill Falls· and BRINCO thing, I would do again.

I would do what I believed to be best for the people of this Province,and I will answer to my constituents for that, and I will answer to my conscience for that,and I will answer to this Province for that, not to the gentleman from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) or anybody else, And I answer, Sir, to my party for what I do as leader of this party. And I do that gladly, Sir, time and time again. And the only -no, I was going to say the only man to be re-elected leader, but the hon. gentleman was re-ele 'cted leader of the Liberal Party, and we all know what went on at that time.

But he was not man enough, Sir, to accept it this time; he left and chose to set up his own party and Jet it be said. MF. NEARY: Do you think- MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, the hon. the gentleman from LaPoile (l-fr. Neary) can say what he wishes and so can any other hon, member. T.et thP..m say what they wish ancl. I will listen to it. But, Sir, the facts are there, the facts are as recorded 1and the facts show that the hon. gentleman's attack is ill-founded, indeed, completely baseless. Mr. Chairman, that is what I have to say.

If other hon. gentlemen wish to speak I will listen with interest and if they say anything that needs, in my view, to be responded to, then I will respond, of course. Thank you. SOl\.IF. HO'III. 11F.MBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKF.R: MR. SIMNONS: The hon. the member for Burgeo-Bay d' Espoir. Mr. Chairman, I do not think it is a matter that ought to take very much time from the time of this Committee, but since it is bearin~ on the government's involvement in purchasing the shares of SRINCO, I would just like to say a few words, 4355

April f', 1976, Tape 1809, Pa~tc 3 - apb MR. SIMMONS: particularly ~s the subject relates to the now famous meeting in the Rowe residence back in March,1Q74. As I said, I do not think it is the kind of thing we need dwell on ver:y l ong, Mr. Chairman , but as 1 have sat here during the last hour or so, I am amazed at the difference, the variance in at least two versions of what went on at that meeting, the version that I kno1~ and the version that we have heard from the member fo r Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood). The Leader of the Opposition has ~iven his version of patts of what went on and I did not find anything in anything he said that I disagree with . 48 57

April 6, 1976 Tape no. 1810 Page 1 - mw Mr. Simmons. I listened very carefully to the member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) as he told us about the meeting back in March,1974, and I noted that he say that he relate it as he recollected it, and I have no doubt that he did recollect it in a way that he told it. The Leader of the Opposition has dealt largely with the discussion at that meeting insofar as the Brinco issue is concerned. I would like to move very quickly to another matter which was alleged to have been discussed there.

I must say, as the Leader of the Opposition has said, I recall - I might have been napping, I do not think so,· I believe I was conscious during the whole period I was there - but I do not recall, Mr. Chairman, any mention whatsoever,in an allusion, a direct reference, an implication, no reference what so ·all to this poppycock about a second party, a second Liberal Party. Not one dot, not one phrase, not one sentence at any time during my presence while I was conscious - and I swear,! believe, I was conscious all during the session - do I recall the member for Twillingate (Mr.

Smallwood) or for that matter anybody else in that group refer by implication, directly or by allusion in any way, shape or form to the possibility,the dream, the fantasy or the possible reality of a third party or a second Liberal Party - no ~ay. Now, Mr. Chairman, I do not know why this has been introduced into the debate. I do not know why, if it is a red herring, or what it is meant to prove,or if it is meant to be just a fuel for a good emotional debate. But I say this, Mr. Chairman, that whatever it is meant to be, it is not a recital of what went on.

It is not one of the items on the agenda at that particular meeting while I was there. It was never discussed, Mr. Chairman, in any way, shape or form. I cannot say this strongly enough, because were I dealing with a matter that was discussed, and we had a different nuance, a meeting on it or a different emphasis, then I could appreciate that one might well have 4858

April 6, 1976 Tape no. 1810 Page 2 - mw Mr. Simmons. a different opinion of what went on than my opinion or someone else's opinion. But for a member to stand in this House and to make very pointed references to a subject that to my knowledge was not even discussed, and I sat within eight or ten or twelve feet of the gentleman as he participated in that meeting, and the matter was not discussed, Mr. Chairman. It just was not discussed. And I question why this whole matter is being 1 introduced into the debate this afternoon, I am puzzled as to why it was even thought a proper item to be introduced into the debate.

There was no mention, none whatsoever. Mr. Chairman, that having been said,I am puzzled as to how my face and the faces of the other persons present can demonstrate pleasure at something we did not hear. I heard the member for Twillingate (Mx-. Smallwood) express considerable pleasure when the bargarin was put, and we were duly pl~ased with this bargain as it were, got delighted, smiles all over our faces. Mr. Chairman, I find myself grinning absently at times, and that might have been one of the times. But I assure that member that if I were grinning, it was not in reaction to something I did not hear.

And I did not hear any reference by him to any second party or any bargain about what he would do if we would do certain things. That is nonsense, Mr. Chairman. I find it unfortunate that I have to stand and say that, but it is utter, complete nonsense, nonsense, nonsense! The member in speaking - and I quote him - said, "If I could judge they were pleased with my offer." Mr. Chairman, do I make myself claar? One, there was no offer, Two, there was no mention of any second or third or fourth Liberal Party reformed, deformed, usual, unusual, no reference at all, none.

So if I am included in that 'they' - the quote says, "If I could judge they were pleased" - again, Mr. Chairman, I beg for an explanation. How in the name of goodness could I look pleased on something I did not hear anything about1 How could I react 4359

April 6, 1976 Mr. Simmons. Tape no. 1810 Page 3 - mw wit.h pleasure? Poppycock, nonsense, nonsense of the highest order, Mr. Chai~, nonsense, the kind of which is unworthy to be introduced in any debate in this particular committee or in this House at all. Mr. Chairman~ I do not know about the re.st of the members at that meeting. If they want to talk about it they can. But I can tell you where I stood when it comes to this whole discussion, and perhaps this is what explains our different versions. :Perhaps it was said, Mr. Chairman, and perhaps J; did not hear; perhaps it was so· unreal that I refused to hear.

I tuned him aUt when I heard such an ~eal proposition. Because, Mr. Chairman, one, I never saw any need for the second Liberal Party. Secondly, I ·cUd not share any particular great fears that someh~w it was necessary to grab at t.his kind of a str.aw, this kind · of a bargain . to avoid being annihilated. Mr. Chairman, that· gentleman could have formed three additional Liberal parties 4860

April 6, 1976 Tape 1811 IB-1 n. snmoNs : so far as I am concerned.! felt then as I feel now. The difference now is that the Province last year has shown proof that my feeling was correct. The Province in the general election on September 16 showed that a second I.iberal Party headed up by the gentleman from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) would not get the twenty-two or twenty­ three or twenty-four - I think the figures was twenty-eight at one time in the rumors just before the election - did not get twenty­ eight, Mr. Chairman, or even the bare majority of twenty-six. }fy information, Yr.

Chairman, is that they got four. I am told they got four in that election, Mr. Chairman. So I had no particular fears in ¥arch, 1974 about the possibility of a second Liberal Party. I never did have any fears about the member's ability to head up a second Liberal Party. I never said I did not respect his ability. I said his ability to form <1 second Ljberal Party. }lr. Chairman, I was aware of his ideas about this second Ljberal Party. Indeed he called me,the member for Twillingate (~'r. Smallwood) called me on the morning of June 30 past, eight thirty in the morning, he called r.~e •. Now, }!r.

Chairman, if we want to talk about various versions of stories I will give you a version of another meeting, a meeting on the telephone. }1R. ROBERTS: The time of the great coup. ~m.. SU!!-'ONS: It happened last June 30 at eight thirty in the morning. I was called at my home out West of Grand Falls at Kona Beach. The member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) called me,I presume from his home on Roaches Line. I am not sure where from, either there or St. John's. He told me among other things, Mr. Chairman -and he named the people off - Mr. Woodward is coming down to see me, Mr. Paul Thorns is on his way down now, Mr.

Fred Rowe is coming down,and so he rhymed off several other people who were coming down to the house and,woulcl I come too? - the implication being that I would be awfully silly not to,because I would be the only fellow in the Liberal caucus left out. Hell, }'r. Chairman, I thanked him for calling me and I told the 4861

April 6, 1976 Tape 1811 IB-2 MR. SDIMONS: gentleman that I would not be interested in attending. I told him I would not be attending. Needless to say immediately I completed that conversation I tried to call my colleague from Trinity-Bay de Verde (Mr. F. ltowe) to say to him, what in the name of goodness is going on, did you actually agree?

But I could not get through to him,so I called a third party who is not in the caucus,so I will not mention him, and that third party subsequently got hold of my colleague and subsequently got back to me and assured me that the member for Trinity-Bay de Verde was indeed not going to Roaches Line,and indeed at least one other member mentioned in the conversation, t!r. Woodward, had no intention of going. Indeed I spoke to him on the phone within an hour after I had spoken to the member for Twillingate (Hr. Smalb~ood) • Now, Mr. Chairman, I have no doubt that when the gentleman from Twillingate (Mr.

Smallwood) gives his version of that telephone conversation it may well be quite different than my version. I care not. I care not. MR. F. ROWE: According to Ed there might have been a meeting starting. I was going but I found out others were not. }ffi. SU1MONS: I see. All right. The member for Trinity-Bay de Verde (Mr. Fred Rowe) tells me something I had no way of knowing unless he had volunteered it 1before indicating that he had agreed to go to such a meeting but that he subsequently found that the information he was being given by the member for Twjllingate (Mr.

Smallwood) to the effect that other people were going was not correct. Then he backed out as well. Hell, Mr. Chairman, that is a tangent, that is a diversion. I did not particularly want to get into that except to say that I was aware for some time of the attempts of the member for Twillingate (Mr. Smal lwood) to fonn a third party. This is the twist, Hr. Chairman, that I think I resent most, the suggestion that the meeting in Harch, that one of the agreements there was for us to become party to an 4862

April c,, 1976 Tape 1812 IB-1 ~I R. SU!HONS: offer which would prevent anot her Liberal Party, as though the member for Twillingate (~'r. Sl'lall•,ood) were attempting to avoid setting up another part y . ~r. Chairman, any of you who have watched the developments in this Province at all in the last few months knows the opposite is true, that the member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) was attemptin g by any rnse, any excuse, any trick in the book to find a reason to start a second Liberal party. I had the conversation wHh him on the morning of June 30 and many hundreds of others have had conversations.

I see people sitting in the gallery today who have told me the y have had similar conversations with him about that time. I see people sitting in this House who had conversations with bim at that time. Now, ~ r. C:hairman, back to that famous meeting. The member f or Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) says that they - I presume I am included in that - were happy to have a strong stand. Indeed we y,rere. On that, Hr. Chairman, I agree with him one hundred and five and a half per cent. ~'i e were very happy to have a strong stand. What he neglected to tell the Committee, Hr.

Chairman, is that that strong stand did not emanate along from him. He was not the father of that strong stand. He was not the originator. I will say that he, by his advice, so kindly given to us at that meeting, helped formulate that stand but the suggestion that we were like a ship without a rudder, that we did not have a click on this whole thing, we had no reading on this Upper Churchill business, this Brinco situation until the father or the originator of the idea comes along, that is poppycock, that is nonsense too, "Mr. Chairman. We had had a number of discussions on this particular issue.

When the word came to me as one member of the caucus that the former Premier, the former leader of this party was willing and ready to sit down with us and discuss this issue, I jumped at the chance - 1 do not know about the rest - I jumped at the chance to have some firsthand aLvi ce from the gentleman, the one man who was at the very center of the whole Brinco development from the day one, from 4863

April 6, 1976 Tape 1812 IB-2 MR. SIMMONS: the word go, back twenty years before, }!r. Chairman. We would be fools,even if he wore a different political label or he had - no matter what the other circumstances were, the fact that the gentleman who had offered his advice, the gentleman at the very center of this whole development for twenty years, if we refused that kind of 1dvice we would be crazy. I was happy to listen to it, happy to enter ~nto an exchange. We got some good advise at that particular meeting, Mr. Chairman. But the suggestion that someone came in, namely the member for Twillingate (Ur.

Smallwood), with this ''strong stand" on a platter and said," Here it is boys, And if you take it bolus-bolus, do not change a dot, do not uncross a 't' and for that I will not start a second party," if I had heard lt that way I would have added some other items to the agreement. If we took it bolus-bolus on the platter, would he also promise us he would not start an eighth church? Would he also promise us he would not introduce new colors into the spectrum? Hould he also promise us he would not start a new bank? What a deal! lfua t nonsense! I was happy, Mr.

Chairman, to participate in that discussion because we were availing of the advice of the man who knows more than any other gentleman alive about the Upper Churchill .development. I read with considerable interest the book put aut recently, I think written by a ~~r. Smith, The Brinco Story, a tremendous story. I learned a lot about it that I had not known before,obviously. I was very pleased to see that Mr. Smith among other things gives full and proper credit to the gentleman from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) without whom, Mr.

Chairman, we would not be discussing Brinco today, without whom the letters which make up Brinco would be just another nonsense word. For these reasons I was happy to avail of the advice, as I hope I can again, Mr. Chairman. But it needs to be said in the contest of this debate that "advice" and " dictate" are two different matters. 4864

April 6, 1976 Tape 1813 PK - 1 Mr. Simmons: It is one thing to advise, it is another thing quite apart from that to think that your advice is automatically a dictate. I always understood advice to mean, Mr. Chairman, something you could take or leave. I always understood a dictate to mean something which was an order,a command. I sat there that morning, I did not talk much, I never got a chance, others were doing too much of it. I was a fairly new member, but I was learning and I was listening so I had no real reason to talk even if I could get a word in edgewise. But I took what was said, and a lot was said.

I was surprised to hear that the meeting only lasted an hour, because I fully thought the member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) had talked at least for an hour himself. He had given us a fairly extended, an extensive analysis of the BRINCO situation,for which I am grateful to him. But I, Mr. Chairman, perhaps naive, perhaps not knowing the inner goings on of this kind of a discussion, I came away, Mr. Chairman, naive as I guess I was,thinking that we had just gotten advice. I did not think that we got orders or ultimatums- if you do this, if you do not du this, I am going to do this.

I took it as a meeting of friends, men who shared a common philosophy, a Liberal philosophy, men who shared a common concern for the development of the Province, and in particular the future of the Churchill development. I saw it as a meeting of friends, not some kind of a negotiating session between unreconcilable enemies where we bargained in white and black, and crossed every 't' and dotted every 'i'. I actually thought, Mr. Chairman, it was a meeting of friends. We were going to get some friendly and valueble advice from a friend of the Liberal Party. He ought to be; he headed it up for so many years.

I did not see it as a dictate, Mr. Chairman. I did not see it as a threat. I did not see it as an ultimatum. Now I hear today that is what it was. "You either do this, you either take this that I presented to you on this "strong stand on Churchill'' or I will get you. I will work against you~' Mr. 4865

April 6, 197f- Tape 1813 PK- 2 Mr. Simmons: Chairman, I perh