VOL. 3 NO. 19 THIRD SESSION OF THE THIRTY-NINTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND PRELH1INARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 A.M. TO 1:00 P.M. FRIDAY, APRIL 6,1984

April 6, 1984 The House met at 10:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Tape No. 739 Order, please! Before .we commence I would like to welcome two groups to the galleries today~ One is a delegation from the NM - 1 Town Council of Grand Falls . in the district of Grand Falls, of course, with Mayor Paul Hennessey, Councillor Dave Gilbert, and the Town Manager,Mr. Wilf Maloney. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: And we have one other group in the gallery, a provincial grou~ of youg 4H people who are on their way to Otta\va on an exchange visit, I welcome them to the gallery today.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: MR. SPEAKER: Council. SOME HON. MEMBERS: t.fR. MARSHALL: The hon. the President of the Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker, ~the hon. House will recall that,following the March 8 decision of the National Energy Board, when questions were posed in the House with respect to it, I indicated that we were withholding comment with respect to that decision because we did not wish any comments that we make to impinge upon the negotiations as they were then going on.

I could explain at that particular time,of course 1 we were aware of the fact that we were awaiting the first written proposal by the Province of Quebec in those negotiations,so we did not wish to make that statement until we received that proposal. Now it has been received,I wish to make a detailed statement with respect to the government's position with respect to it. It is as follows: 1992

April 6, 1984 Tape No. 739 NM - 2 MR. MARSHALL : On Thursday, March 8, the same day, Mr. Spea~er, that the Supreme Court of Canada brought down its decision on the offshore, the National Energy Board gave a ruling,which bore the date you will note of Janu ary 1984, approving Hydro-Quebec's application to export a substantial block of power to the New York Pmo~er Authority. Because we were then expecting a written proposal by Hydro -Quebec wi t.'tin t~o~o weeks, we withheld comment lest to cause Quebec to delay further presentation of their long awaited position at the negotiating table .

As everyo ne knows,this proposal has now been received so we are free to comment. While the export approvals were for a shorter term in the case of some licences than the nineteen year term that was requested ,there appears to be no doubt that the board's ruling constitutes substantial approval of Qu ebec's request. This ruling \o7a s made notwithstanding 1993

--------- - ~ --- - --- ·- - - ----- --- ---- ----'"'---- - - - - April 6,1984 Tape No. 740 ah-1 MR. MARSHALL: the Province's strenuous objection against the exports. Our position was clearly stated, Mr. Speaker. This Province needs the power as it woulo., number one, · reduce onr projected increasing dependence upon expensive ,.heavy fuel oil to generate electricity: <~nd , secondly, enable the Province, and the Labrador portion particularly,to enjoy a greater chance of industri -al development.

When one considers that these very exports to America are possible for Hydro-Quebec because of the huge block of power, representing in excess of one fifth of their capacity,being obtained from us at inordinately low prices,it did seem that our intervention was most reasonable. In the press release accompanying its written ' 1 •• Reasons for decision,~the National Energy Board stated it does not have authority to order electricity sales from one province to another. While it may be precluded from doing this directlv.

Section 83 of the act regulating its constitution, and duties__::l_e~:r:_!y _I?rovides it must be satisfied that any po,v-ers sought to be exported is surplus to reasonably' foreseeable Canadian requirements before an export license is to be granted. Thus,there is no doubt that the board has the indirect power to have caused Quebec to offer similar blocks of power to Newfoundland. If power being exported to America by one province, that is Quebec, is required by another, Newfoundland, how can that power be surplus to Canadian needs?-that is the power which is being exported.

The National Energy Board seems to base its decision upon the fact that there'is no interconnecting transmission line by which electricity could be transmitted to 1994

April 6, 1984 Tape No. 740 ah-2 MR. MARSHALL: the Island of Newfoundland and that there have been. " no firm conunitments . ·"-that was in the decision-from industries in Labrador. Now this causes me ti,J ask three questions. Number one, how can one ever expect transmission lines to be constructed and inqustries established unless there is an assurance of a supply of electricity? It also causes me to ask, secondly, how can we finance and construct a major transmission facility without this supply of electricity?

And, thirdly, to ask who in his right mind would expect an industry to build a plant in the middle of the Labrador without assurances of adequate energy? The National Energy Board did exhibit some sensitivity to Newfoundland's argument 1995

--- --'---- a.-·- · -- ------~ - - . April 6, 1984 Tape 741 EC - 1 MR. MARSHALL: when it refused a licence of nineteen years duration for shorter term exports. I say 'a licence'. They approved a lot of it. In one case, they refused a licence for nineteen years.

Instead, it only allowed the term of that particular licence to be five years, partly be9ause, it stated - and here again, I quote from the board's own words - "The board would not wish to authorize any export which might preclude H~dro-Quebec from supplying Newfoundland's potential firm power and energy requirements." Now, while we may clearly appreciate this observation by the board 1 the words ring hollow indeed.if an interconnecting transmission line must be constructed before these potential requirements are to be recognized. If this is the prerequisite to Newfoundland gaining access to power, Mr.

Speaker, Quebec will continue to receive a series of five-year approvals from the Canadian National Energy Board. Indeed, that licence might just as well have been granted for 105 years instead of the five years •. Hhat utility, Mr. Speaker, can afford to construct such a line without assurance that power is available and that the cost of power is known? I mean, it just defies common sense. If an interconnection is a prerequisite to demonstrating our needs as Canadians, then­ Quebec will continue forever to be able to export large blocks of power, including that needed by Newfoundland. Mr.

Speaker, it is noted that the New York Power Authority was in a similar situation - now, just get this, Mr. Speaker - in that it would have to build a line known as the 1·1arcy South line to access Hydro~quebec's alleged surplus energy. I am advised the estimated cost of that line is in the amount of about 1996

April 6, 1984 Tape 741 EC - 2 MR. MARSHALL: ?500 million. The recent National Energy Board ruling, Mr. Speaker, will enable that line to be built in the States, and one must question why an American state could be given the means to construct a line when this Province was not. It is also interesting to note, Mr.

Speaker, that in a ruling on the gas export licence within the past year - and this shows an inconsistency, I am going to point out, with a prior ruling- this same board denied an export licence to an applicant called Ocelot Industries Limited on similar principles proposed by Newfoundland in the hydro export application.

The board ruled that it was not in the national interest to permit the export of gas from Saskatchewan, when it was purchasing a large portion of its requirements from Alberta at a domestic price which ~11as lower than the U.S. export price and since no agreement had been worked out, in the board's words - and again I quote - "for the equitable sharing of revenues accruing from the export sales". In other words, they had to make a deal with Alberta before a Saskatchewan company could export to America or Saskatchewan could do it. HR. NEARY: A lot of garbage! MR.

MARSKALL: 'A lot of garbage', the han. gentleman says. I could not think, Mr. Speaker, of a better analogy as between the Quebec - Newfoundland situation when Quebec imports a substantial quantity 1997

April 6, 1984 Tape 742 PK - 1 MR. MARSHALL: of electricity,about 20 per cent to 25 per cent of its total capability, from Newfoundland,while at the same time exporting sufficient blocks to the United States at prices more than ten times higher. In that same gas export decision, Mr.

Speaker, the boa~d stated that it was concern there was no equitable sharing arrangement, and while it would not prescribe the precise terms of any such arrangements between the two provinces, that is, Alberta and Saskatchewan, it would withhold export permission until meaningful discussions had taken place and something had been worked out :- get this, Mr. Speaker! .for to do otherwise was not in the best interests of , Canada 1 so the board said, Mr. Speaker. Newfoundland asked for t similar consideration in the hydro export case 1 yet,the board did not even deal with this aspect in Newfoundland's intervention.

MR. NEARY: Sit down and stop making a fool of yourself. MR. MARSHALL: Now, Mr. Speaker, I am making a statement that I had given to the Opposition before. The hon. gentleman can respond after. This is a very important decision. This is a matter affecting the principles of Newfoundland, and they should not-be t~ere- continually defending .:.. ·- MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! The hon. Leader of the Opposition on a point of order. MR. NEARY: I believe I heard Your Honour call Ministerial statements. Now the hon. gentleman 1 I believe, has been side-tracked there.

MR. HICKEY: By? , ... 1998

April 6, 1984 Tape 742 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: Well 1 I do not know by whom, by his own narrow-mindedness and bigotry. Now, Mr. Speaker, I would submit that the han. gentleman be ordered to carry on with· hisr-iinisterial Statement so that somebody on this side can respond. We do not need a lecture from the han. gentleman. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order,-please! To that point of order: The Chair did recognize the han. President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) on a Ministerial Statement and at the same time I would suggest that he does have the right to be heard in silence. MR. MARSHALL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Now,getting back to the denial of Saskatchewan's application to e%port power and the approval of Quebec, they :aaid 1 as I said, it was not in the best interest of Canada. Newfoundland asked for similar consideration in the hydro export case, yet the board did not even deal wi~h this aspect of Newfoundland's intervention when it issued its decision. The bottom line 1therefore, Mr. Speaker, appears to be Quebec is permitted to export power at the expense of Newfoundland while a Saskatchewan company is denied a similar licence .since it would profit ) from Alber~an energy. SOME HON. !'.-:!EMBERS : oh, oh! MR.

MARSHALL: Now we have to express obviously, Mr. Speaker, our extreme disappointment with this ruling. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: It is somewhat ironic the very day when the Supreme Court of Canada ruled we had no ownership or right to the oil which we brought into Confederation, the National Energy Board brought in a decision which will result in our continued dependency upon oil - 1999

April 6, 1984 Tape 742 PK - 3 SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Rus ·sell): Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I can give this stateli)Emt in the House o:t: I can give it at a press conference, Mr. Speaker, where I will p;ot be int~rrupted. ,_..- SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKE~: Order, please! MR • MARSHALL: I say , .Mr.

Speaker, it is ·somewhat ironic that the very day the Supreme Court of canada ruled we ha,ci no ownership or right to the oil which we brougt into • Confederation,the National Energ ·y Board brought in a decision which will result in our continued dependency upon oil for electrical generation. Who knows :? · Perhaps we might . . be even priv:j.leged to repurchase our own oil at near world ' k th ' I pr~ces to eep ese generators go~ng• 2000

-·-- ··- ---- --- - April 6, 1984 Tape No. 743 SD - 1 MR. MARSHALL: All of this shoulfi be considered ,.ri thin the context that for some years we have generated a~ple hydro power - SOHE HON. m:>1BERS : Oh, oh! DR. COLLINS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell}: Order, please! A point Qf order, the han. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, I am sitting a few feet from the hon. minister,who is reading out one of the most important Ministerial Statements this House has heard read ever since this session started 1and I am having great difficulty following the very valid and very important information ,fie is giving because of noise in parts -of the House. I would ask Your Honour to ensure that the members of the House can hear this important statement. MR. NEARY: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER; ' To that point of order, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: What we are hearing in this Hous ·e, Mr.

Speaker, is paranoia. We are hearing the minister again saying that he thinks somebody is out to get him. They failed, . they should have done their homework. What the National Energy B·oard is saying is build a transmission lin~, come back to us- in five yea~s· and we will give you your electricity. That is what they are saying, Mr. Speaker. What we need is a full-time minister in this Province, not a part-time gentleman do .wntown actively practising law. MR. MARSHALL: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. President of the Council. MR.

MARSHALL: If I could~just brieflv respond to that point of order, Mr. Speaker! Hon. qentlemen have an opportunity to respond to this statement. They are getting 2001

-~\..... April 6, 1984 Tape No. 743 MR. MARSHALL: exercised because this is a statement where this Province is trying to address itself to the very real problem of the great giveaway of Upper Churchill power that was perpetrated by the hen. gentlemen when they were in office,and that is why they do not want to hear the positions that we are taking and the efforts we are making to this end. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKE'R (Russel "ll : Order, please!' Whether or not hen. members agree with the context of the Ministerial Statement is not the point at all.

Any hen. member w·hen speaking does have the right to be heard in ~ilence. I would again ask hen. members to grant that privilege to the minister. SD - 2 MR. MARSHALL: The hen. President of the Council. Again,I repeat, we have to express our disapproval with that rulinq of the board. It is sc:rravhat ironic that the very day when the SUpreme Court of Canada ruled we had no ownership or right to the oil which we brought into Confedera-tion 1 the National Energy Board brought in a decision which. will result in our continued dependency upon oil for electrical generation. Who knows, ·Mr. Speaker?

Perhaps we might even be privileged to repurchase our own oil at near world prices to keep these generators going~ All of this should be considered within the context that for some years we have generated ample hydro power within our own boundaries to satisfy all the requirements of our people at much more reasonable rates than may now be obtained,but most of it is exported to.Quebec for export to the States while Newfoundland ~'s· needs· are not even given priority over those of New York State. SOME: HON. ME!o$ERS : Oh., ah., MR. SPEA!<ER: Order, please~ 2002

April 6, 1984 Tape No. 743 SD - 3 MR. MARSHALL: It is noted that these exports will reap huge profits also for Quebec, Mr. Speaker. Po~ential revenues from these exports alone have been identified to be in the order of $5~0 million in the early years, growing to a potential of a yearly sum 2003

April 6, 1984 Tape No. 744 NM - 1 MR. MARSHALL: $1.2 billion in the early 1990s. And how does that sock you, Mr. Speaker, when we are getting a paltry $5 million to $6 million or $7 million from the Upper Churchill. Now, Mr. Speaker, a government acting in the interests of the people is completely unable to accept the results of decisions of this nature. We merely ask the same right to the use of our resource, whethep hydro, oil or fish, as other provinces enjoy. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. MARSHALL: G:tow up 1boy. Order, please!

Government cannot accept treatment unequal not only to our sister provinces but to states of a foreign without employing every means possible to see the inequality redressed. Therefore, I wish to advise the House that the following actions have been taken in response to this decision of the National Energy Board. The first thing is the National Energy Board Act requires the board rulings to be approved by the Federal Cabinet before they become effective.

Accordingly, on Marcy 12, 1984, a few days after the decision-once again 1 I did not make that letter public,as I will toda y,in the interest of negotiations-! wrote the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources of Canada (Mr. Chretien) requesting a final decision be deferred until the requirements of Newfoundland are attempted to be met on a priority basis over those of the New York Power Authority. In the interests of the power negotiations, we refrained from making this letter public until now. I now table this ietter. To date, Mr. Speaker, we have received no reply.

Our problem now lies where it can most effectively be resolved in the first instance, that is, within the Government of Canada. The law - whether it applies to 2004

April 6, 1984 Tape no. 744 NM - 2 MR. MARSHALL: electricity, the offshore or the fisheries - applies unfairly to Newfoundland. It would seem the laws presently existing favour the majority over the minority. To make their substance and application fair, changes have to be made by the Cabinet - SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. MARSHALL: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: Oh, oh! Order, please! - and the Parliament of Canada. Everybody is against me! Order, please! In this case, the federal government now has an opportunity to help Newfoundland and, Mr.

Speaker, we await its response with interest. MR. HICKEY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. Minister of Social Services on a point of order. MR. HICKEY: Is there any law and order in the House, Mr. Speaker, or have hon. gentlemen opposite completely disregarded your presence? Have they forgotten the rules? Have they forgotten the fact there is a Speaker in the Chamber who controls the Chamber? He tells hon. gentlemen to shut their mouth and be quiet they are supposed to do so. MR. TULK: Are you questioning the Speaker? MR. HICKEY: What rules have you got over there?

Are you following your own rules? The hon. gentlemen are very sensitive this morning, Mr. Speaker, they do not like what they are hearing. They have been sitting on the fence so long! They gave away everything we have. They have been sitting on the fence so long. They are still on the fence,and they do not like the fact,even though 2005

-4:_._.- April 6, 1984 Tape No. 744 MR. HICKEY: this Pro~ipce stands to go down the tube, down the drain while they sit and watch Rome burn. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Opposition. MR. NEARY: The hon. Leader of the This is • group think', NM- 3 we see it here again today. Mr. Speaker, I do not know if the bon. gentleman was in his seat last week when we 2006

April 6, 1984 Tape No. 745 MJ - 1 MR. NEARY: thought,on this side of the House,that we were going to have to start wearing hard hats, Mr. Speaker. I ~17ould submit there is no point of order. Mr. Speaker, we understand that hon. members have a right to be heard in silence. It is a pity they do not speak in silence, Hr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (RUssell) : Order, please! Order, please! Two or three times ~ the last few minutes the Chair has had to remind hon. members that when a member is speaking he does have the .right to be heard in silence.

If hon ~ members persist ' ·in not adhering to that 1I suppose there comes a time when the Chair has no other alternative but to name them, HR. NEARY: ~1R. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: Adjourn the Hous~. The hon. the President of the Council. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The first initiative,which I have described in detail,is the appeal to the federal cabinet and the reason for it. The second action bein~ ··taken is to request a review of the National Energy Board decision. Under

Section 17 of the ~rnB Act, provision is made to permit an application to the board for a rehearing. And, Mr. Speaker, we are making such an application. The main basis will be the apparent inconsistency between the board's ruling in the case above referred to where it precluded a Saskatchewan company from prmfiting at the expense of Alberta while it allows Hydro-Quebec to profit at the expense of Newfoundland. This glaring inconsistency will be drawn to the board's attention. A third initiative was an appeal to the Federal Court of Canada, Mr. Speaker. We have also ~ecided 1 using

Section 18 of that act 1to ask the Federal 2007

---- ---- ----- -- April 6, 1984 Tape No. 745 MJ - 2 MR. MARSHALL: Appeals Court to deal with Newfoundland's concerns, particularly with respect to the issues in our intervention which were not addressed. We believe very strongly that the board has an obligation not to approve exports until such time as the canadian exporter has made an attempt to satisfy all Canadian needs. Moreover, we cannot accept that Newfoundland must first build a transmission line to the Island of Newfoundland before the need for surplus Canadian power can be effectively recognize~.

Still a fourth initiative taken by this government is an· objection to futher exports. ~ should point out that Hydro-Quebec have signed an agreement with the New England Power Authority- the other one was in New York but now they are going into New England with the power - MR. NEARY: More power to them. MR • MARSHALL : Yes, more power to them. More power from Churchill Falls to them. - which provides for their ~urchase of additional so-called surplus Quebec power on terms and conditions similar to those in Quebec's agreement with New York. A hearing is set for 2008

April 6,1984 Tape No. 746 MR.MARSHALL: May 15th into their application for the export of a further significant block of power to that part of the United States. New£oundland will continue to exercise its rights - MR.NEARY: In court again. MR.MARSHALL: Yes, in court again. We will do everything we can to protect interests of the people. SOME HON.MEMBERS: H~ar, hear! ah-1 MR. MARSHALL: before the NEB with respect to this application and continue to make vigorous aTgument with respect to our need for hydroelectric power in the Island of Newfoundland and the Province of Ne.wfoundland generally.

From our perspective, Mr. Speaker, on every front we are engaged in a determination to reclaim our resources. This we must continue and we cannot allow ourselves to be deterred in this aim by adverse decisions or any like happening. As the Throne Speech said, we must break from the cycle of dependency. Let it'be understood that we will spare no efforts in our aim of reclaiming resources which are rightfully ours. We will employ every-available means and explore all possibilities.

In this present matter, we are asking the federal government to exercise its powe.r to reject this secision and we are fully appealing the decision and fighting against further exports until our requirements are satisfied. As can be seen from the 2009

.... April 6,1984 Tape No. 746 ah-2 MR. MARSHALL: foregoing, we shall leave no stone unturned in pressing the rights of Newfoundland in its seemingly unending struggle to gain the rights to its resources. It is our desire to resolve these issues amiably through negotiations. We cannot, however, allow our rights to remain unexercised through every available channel. We do not feel these actions should affect negotiations which we initiated with Quebec. At the lnception of these discussions it was clearly understood each side would continue to pursue its rights concerning any applications for export power. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I also table with the statement my letter to the Han. Jean Chretien of March 13th last. I shall not read the first two pages because they are in substance the same as are contained in the statement there,_ but they are there for all members to see if they have any questions. But I will read the last three paragraphs in the letter.

"My request to you is that the Government of Canada withhold approval of the export licences until such time as it is satisfied that the Canadian energy requirements which presently exist in Newfoundland have been canvassed by the exporter and that extensive discussions have taken place , thereby affording Newfo.undland the same opportunity that was afforded the New York Po\-~er Authority and the New England Power Fool. 1' Surely, a Canadian Province which has a requirement for such power should be given equal opportunity with an American State before any export is permitted.

It is our understanding that, given the interim- licence already approved by the National Energy Board, a deferment in any decision up to and including August 31,1984, would not be particularly 2010

Ap:ril 6,1984 Tape No. 746 MR. MARSHALL: ''harmful to Hydro-Quebec or to NYPA. Moreover, it would provide a realistic opportunity for Canadian energy requirements to be 2011 ah-3

~ - -· ---- - ------" ~ ........._:...__._. ~·-· _. __ c April 6, 1984 Tape No. 747 SD - 1 MR. MARSHALL: ••given priority over that of the export market. "I trust this explanation is satisfactory. However, I would be pleased to rr.e:et with you at any time to give you further details of the critical electrical ener<;{Y si·tuation which continues to face the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador." So, Mr. Speaker, I table the statement and I also table the letter to Mr. Chretien which is there and is self-explanatory. SOME HON. MEMBERS : " Hear, hear. MR.

SPEAKER (Russelli: Order, please~ Before I recognize the han. member for Mount Scio,r would just like to welcome two more groups· to the galleries. We have thirty students from the democracy class from the William Mercer Academy from Dover, Hare Bay, with their teacher Mr. Eastman. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER: And we have forty students from St. Martin's· High Schoo~· in Dunvillerwith their . ' teachers Debbie Philips, Beth Holloway and Kevin Yetman. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear, MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Mount Scio. MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, I listened to the statement By the Minister responsible for Energy (Mr. Marshall) this morning. Unfortunately 1 what I heard was nothing more than another lame excuse for failure. SOME RON. MEMBERS: That i:s righ.t. MR. BARRY: Combined with what I consider to be a -yf?ry sad and_~erious questJ:oning of a qua_si-judicial body. r·'?e have seen certain members opposite take the oosi tion of questioning the Newfoundland Court of Appeal on its decision.O:f the Supreme Court of Canada, they were a little more muted in their criticism there. But I think, Mr. Speaker, 2012

-------------- April 6, 1984 Tape No. 747 SD -2 MR. BARRY: we are treading on very dange.rous ground when we see members of the House of As.sembly, particularly Ministers of the Crown, rising to criticize and imply that there is some conspiracy or some sinister motive underlining the decision of th~ National Energy Board. The clear mess~ge that comes from thls statement is that· the National En ... rgy Board is hand in hand with the federal government - MR. TULK: And Quebec • MR. BARRY: -and Quebec to do Newfoundland out of its legitimate rights and interests.

That is a very dangerous line for a Minister.of the Crown to take. ~hen the very institutions of government are undermined by one sworn to uphold gove~nment1 2013

April 6, 1984, Tape 748, Page 1 -- apb MR. BARRY: then that course, Mr. Speaker~ is the first step down a long and slippery _J slope. Now what we have here is, presumably, another attempt at winning in a legal forum and the government failing. Now, Mr. Speaker, there are a number of reasons why this might have come about.

It might have come about because the case was inadequately prepared, it might have come about because government did not provide the resources to those presenting the case to permit adequate preparation, it might have come about because government was more concerned with making political mileage out of the issue rather than dealing with the case as it should be dealt with, in a professional, thorough way. We have another failure by the minister, and a bad failure, and another failure by the government of which he is part. This, Mr.

Speaker, is an example of what happens, also, when one throws all one's eggs into the one basket of a court case, whether it be before the National Energy Board, the Newfoundland Supreme Court, the Newfoundland Court of Appeal, or the Supreme Court of Canada. And I would ask the minister to take heed of the risks involved in the course which they just set upon last week- ~he minister says they are continuing negotiations with the Province of Quebec on the Upper Churchill contract,and yet, Mr~ Speaker, we have the admission that there is no counteroffer gone back to the Province of Quebec.

We have the statement from the Quebec Energy Minister that he has no invitation from the Government of Newfoundland - MR. CARTER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. 2014

April 6, 1984, Tape 748, Page 2 -- apb MR. SPEAKER(Russell): Order, please! The han. the member for St. John's North(Mr. carter) on a point of order. MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman is supposed to be replying to a Ministerial Statement. Instead, he is making a flpeech and engaging in debate. Now, it is quite clear that he was not prepared for his speech, because while the han. minister was up making his speech the member for Mount Scio(Mr.Barry) came in late and the Leader of the Opposition(Mr.

Neary) and some of his hacks were taking up the time of this House so that the member could put together a few words. But he is not replying, to the Ministerial Statement, he is .: -t making a very rancorous debating speech and I think he should be called to order. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: the Opposition. MR. NEARY: To that point of order, The han. the Leader of Mr. Speaker, I just want to say that that is not a point of order, there is merely a difference of opinion.

And I would also add,to reinforce that it is not a point of order,that the hon. gentleman has no credibility after his performance in this 2015

April 6, 1984 Tape 749 EC - l MR. NEARY: House in the last couple of days. He does not understand the rules, he has no credibility and all he wants to do, Mr. Speaker, is to try to get the hon. gentleman down roll in the mud with him. I would submit to my hon. colleague that he completely ignor~ him. Mr. Smallwood will deal with him in due course if he will only make the statements outside the House that he has made inside the House, Mr. Speaker, which he does not have the courage to do. So I would say there is no point of order. All he is trying to do is use up the time of my hon. colleague. MR.

SPEAKER (Russell): To that point of order, I submit that the rule of relevancy perhaps is, at the best of times, difficult to rule on. There is usually some flexibility allowed and it is a difference of opinion between two hon. members. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: DR. COLLINS: MR. SPEAKER: on a point of order. DR. COLLINS: Nell S!'Oken, Sir! The hon. the member for Mount Scio. . on a point of order, ~~- Speaker. Order, please! Order, please! The hon. the Minister of Finance Mr. Speaker, when the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) rose on that recent point of order, he stated that the hon. the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) had no credibility in this Hou~e and he asked the speaker to ignore him. Mr. Speaker, I think that is most unparliamentary and I would ask that the Leader of the Opposition be asked to withdraw those remarks. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Opposition. Hear, hear! To that point of order, The hon. the Leader of the 2016

April 6, 1984 Tape 749 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman gets up, says something is unparliamentary, does not refer to the Standing Rules of the House or Beauchepne, just gets up and tries to dictate an order to the Chair, tries to bully the Chair, tries to browbeat the Chair because the hon. gentleman did not like what I_said about the hon. gentleman's credibility as far as the rules of this House are concerned and the statements he has made in the last few days. I would say that is tough! If I hurt the hon. gentleman' 's feelings, that is too bad!

And if the hon. gentleman just cannot stand the heat, let him get out of the kitchen. Mr. Speaker, there is no point of order. SOME HON. MID<f.BERS : Oh, oh! DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Minister of Finance to the point of order. DR. COLLINS: The point of my point of order was that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) made a statement that a member of this House has no credibility. He just made a state- ment that a member has no credibility and I say that that is unparliament~ry. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The Chair will reserve a ruling on that matter.

The hon. the member for Mount Scio. MR. BARRY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think it should be pointed out here that the denial of the Quebec export licence would not necessarily have forced Quebec to sell to Newfoundland. It would not necessarily have meant that then the power would automatically come back to Newfoundland. There would still be the need 2017

April 6, 1984 Tape No. 750 MJ - 1 MR. BARRY: to negotiate with the Province of Quebec. It may have,and probably would have improved the Province's bargaining position in the context of the Upper Churchill negotiations, it was an attempt at establishing a bargaining position, but it would not automatically have meant that Quebec then would have had to make power available to this Province. It should also be noted that the board's decision is to permit exports only for five years.

And now the minister has said, 'Well, it is just the same as though it were for 105 years because we are not going to be able to construct a transmission line.' Well,it is within the government's power to construct a transmission line. ~~at the minister is saying is that we have difficulty in financing such a line. To a certain extent that is due to government's own self-imposed impecuniosity because of bad economic policies and so forth, but, Mr. Speaker, if the Water Rights Reversion Act strategy is successful and i£ the government is entitled to terminate the lease of water rights, Mr.

Speaker, this will deal with this entire question. This is a secondary issue to the Water Rights Reversion Act and the entitlement of the province to ~ MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! I have to advise the . han. member that his time has elapsed. MR. BARRY: No, no. That is not possible, Mr. Speaker .. Mr. Speaker, there is so~ething wrong with the clocks. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! It is recognized that the hon. member has half ~f the time allocated to a minister in replying to a ~Unisterial Statement. 2018

April 6, 1984 MR. BARRY: SOME HON. MEMBERS: DR. COLLINS: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Tape No. 750 There is something wrong. Oh, oh! MJ - 2 A point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please! The han. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, it was clearly stated by the hon. the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) that he was not accepting Your Honour's ruling. Your Honour stated that his time had elapsed and he said, 'That is not possible'. That is a clear denial of Your Honour's statement and I would ask the han. the member for Mount Scio to withdraw that remark. MR. NEARY: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition to that point of orde 'r. MR. NEARY: ltt. Speaker, I would submit that what the hon. gentleman just said should not be considered in this whole matter at all, Sir. The fact of the matter is that the Ministerial Statement was twenty-five minutes in duration, Mr. Speaker, allowing for the Minutes of the House to be read, the doors to be opened, Your Honour to ring the bell that would bring it down to about, I would say, 10:27 a.m. when the minister finished, Mr. Speaker.

So taking into consideration the interruptions from the other sia.e, \the harassment, the hon. gentle!Tlan has still only gone about seven or eight minutes, Mr .. Speaker, and so he has approximately three and a half to four minutes left according to our calculations. I am sure Your Honour is qoinq to qet the ricrht calculations now fro!Tl t~ ."! t"'b] ~ . MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, that was an eight page document and anybodv could read that in ten minutes. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, we understand the" do not like it over there. They cannot take the rebuttal, 2019

:"\~-- .. -·-: -- -'-· ~ ··--· ..: April 6, 1984 MR . NEARY : MR. DINN: ~.R. NEARY : -- ·-··"· _;._·-·=-· ....... _...._ __ ... :.. ... ~14..~...;..,.._~- ~· --"'----- Tape No . 750 MJ - 3 we understand that. .Eight pages took twenty -five minutes? Yes . But remember the hon. gentleman had to squirt his poison across the House too with his snake -like talk. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Oh, ohl DR . COLLINS : Mr . Speaker, to that point of order . 2020

April 6, 1984 Tape 751 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Minister of Finance to that point of order. DR. COLLINS: The point of order was that the han. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) questioned Your Honour's ruling. Now if he had difficulty with Your Honour's ruling there are clear ways of doin~ that. He could have risen on a point of order and asked for explanation or whatever, but he did not. When Your Honour made a ruling he said, 1 Mr. Speaker, that is impossible ; .

That is a clear and obvious questioning of Your Honour's ruling. · 1I ask him to withdraw that remark. / If he wants to take some other measure, let him take it. But I ask him to show respect for the Chair and,: as an honourable gentleman,to withdraw that remark questioning the authority of the Chair. l1R. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Mount Scio. MR. BARRY: What the han. Minister of Finance has said is total rubbish. I rose , Mr. Speaker, and I said, 'That is impossible'- a-statement of fact.

And I would ask , the Speaker to check the time and see whether there might not have been an error made. If the Speaker finds that there has been no error made 1 then there is no question of my questioning Your Honour's authority or ruling. But I would ask in all fairness , Mr. Speaker, if you would check and make sure that the t~me had elapsed because my time indicated that I had another two or three minutes. And if that is not possible, I would ask, Mr . . - -- Speak.:!r, with the interruptions that t-:>ok place, if you would establish whether by leave I might finish. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. President of the Council. 2021 _.. . ~

April 6, 1984 Tape 751 PK - 2 MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I think we can resolve this. The Speaker's ruling is the Speaker's ruling. But as far as the government side of the House is concerned the bon. gentleman can have as much time as he· wishes to. As a matter of fact,I am rather entertained by every word of the hon. gentleman;where he shows his great incon~is~ancy betwe~n when he was over here and over there. , so we all find it very ' entertaining so he can go on all morning if he wishes to with that. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please!

To that point of order,certainly I think the bon. member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) was not really changelling the Speaker's ruling. I think he -genuinely felt that the time had not elapsed. I have checked with the table people and there appears to be about one minute difference in the time the table had and the time that I had written down up here. But now that a point of order has been raised certainly the half time has expired. Does the bon. membe~ have leave to continue? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Mount Scio. MR. BARRY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am glad that the Minister responsible for Energy (Mr. Marshall) slapped down the Minister of Finance ' (Dr. Collins) and keeps him in his place. Mr. Speaker, just a couple o£ points that should be made here. If the Water Rights Revision Act strategy is successful,then this will enable the Province to obtain whatever power it needs, whatever energy it needs from the Upper Churchill. It may be , Mr. Speaker, that what we have here and the reason for this decision is because of 2022

April 6, 1984 Tape 751 PK - 3 MR . BARRY : certain inadequacies in the current National Energy Act . This has come up before and ,.;· there have been certain representations made . The representations of ·the minister 1 rather than criticizing the Board it may be that the minister should be pointing out the way that the ' 3ct under which the National Energy Board was dealing with this case does not treat hydroelectricity in the same way that it treats hydrocarbon, in the same way it treats oil and gas . And,therefore,when the minister refers to ,· 2023

April 6, 1984 Tape No. 752 NM - 1 MR. BARRY: a certain precedent, {such as the Ocelot Industries case 1 tthe minister has conveniently ommitted to refer to any of the differences in the statute, the statute which deals in more detail, Mr. Speaker, with oil and gas than it does with hydroelectricity. Now members on this side of the House, Mr. Speaker, completely support the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador obtaining sufficient power from the Upper Churchill to meet Newfoundland's needs and completely supports, Mr. Speaker, the fact that this Province should have first priority.

What the National Energy Board·has said is that because there does not seem. to be any immediate need, any immediate supply possible to where the demand is within the Province, it will review the matter in five years time and,if in fact there is a transmission line constructed to where the demand is in the Province, if there is then,therefore,as a result of that the opportunity of utilizing power within the Province of Newfoundland,then they will review their decision. It should be noted, Mr.

Speaker, that normally it would take in the range of three to five years to construct the transmission line 1 to do the necessary work to have a transmission line constructed from Labrador to the Island portion of the Province, so the time range is not greatly out of order. And, Mr. Speaker, finally I would note that 1 as the minister has pointed out 1 appeal provisions are available, there are provisions. for appeal. The minister intends to, and he has appealled to .the political route of the Federal Cabinet, and he is, as I understand it, 2024

- April 6, 1984 Tape No. 752 NM - 2 MR. BARRY: going the legal route of the Federal Court of Appeal. I find it very strange to have a Minister of the Crown 1 while court proceedings are underway, standing up and criticizing the law applied by the quasi- judicial body in the first instance . ..r wonder if the minister has consulted with the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) as to the propriety of this approach. I repeat again, Mr.

Speaker, while we would have liked to see another result, an opposite result 1 to improve the Province's bargaining position it is still not too late for members opposite, for the minister and the government of which he is a part, to sit down with the Government of Quebec, to sit down with Hydro-Quebec and to negotiate a deal which will avoid the necessity of putting all their eggs in a further legal basket. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I have a brief statement to make.

I would like to announce that the Province has completed a $75 million US bond issue in the European capital market. The bonds, which have a term of seven years, carry a 13 per cent coupon, and have been priced at a premium ' of 100.25 per cent on their principal amount to yield an effective interest rate of 12.94. _ The issue has been very well received and it has already been fully taken 2025

April 6,1984 Tape No. 753 ah-1 DR.COLLINS: up by investors widely distributed throughout Europe. The issue is managed by the Province's European Fiscal Agents, Credit Commercial De France and Dominion Securities Ames Limited. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, there is not much to be said. The Province has to borrow and we have borrowed again. The only·point I would like to make about this borrowing, Mr. Speaker, is that it is a very,·very high rate of interest for borrowing coupon bonds.

I understand it is the highest rate of interest, 12.94 , since October,l982 1which leads me to wonder if we are borrowing at the right time and whether we are getting good fiscal advice from the people who advise .us on borrowing. We all hate to have to borrow but ~ve know it is a fact of life, particularly with this government, Mr. Speaker~ But this it is a very high rate of interest and certainly not somethi-ng _that we can be very proud of. MR.NEARY: They intend to run us to the ground. MR. MARSHALL : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. President of the Council. MR.MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, I have another Ministerial Statement. I should explain to the House as well as to the hon. gentlemen there opposite why we are bedecked with flowers and they are not bedecked with flowers. We are bedecked with flowers today because it 2026

April 6,1984 MR.MARSHALL: of our victory. SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR. MARSHALL: Tape No. 753 ah-2 is the second anniversary Hear, hear! And I know the hon. gentlemen there opposite would like to share in our joy. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh--! MR.SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! MR.MARSHALL: I can indicate,! can send the hon. memeer for Harbour Grace (Mr. Young) in his private capacity1who4 ·because of his profession could tell the hon. gentleman the best way to celebrate our victory. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR.MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, This is yet another statement, · I would appreciate the attention of the House so that we can - MR. NEARY: MR. MARSHALL: Where is our copy of i~? I gave you a copy of it. At yesterday's sitting of this House,Mr. Speaker, members heard me accord on behalf of the government a welcome befitting a minister from another. jurisdiction in our country1to the Hon. John Chretien,while he was in the Speaker's Gallery. Now we all heard that. I can also inform this House that immediately before yesterday's sitting I 2027

April 6, 1984 Tape 754 EC - 1 MR. MARSHALL: visited Mr. Chretien in the Speaker's Office to privately extend a welcome. SOME HON. r1EMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: We had a conversation alone for approximately five to ten minutes before the House opened. During that time, Mr. Chretien mentioned not a single word about the $750 million offshore exploration agreements he announced later that afternoon - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: - during his press conference dealing primarily with the local aspects of his leadership campaign. Now, Mr.

Speaker, immediately after yesterday's Question Period, the government of this Province received its first news - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): .MR. MARSHALL: Oh, oh! Order, please! Lmmediately after yesterday's Question Period, the government of this Province received its first news of the coming announcement by the federal minister during a press interview which I had 1 outside this -House, with Mr. Tim Naumetz of Canadian Press. ~.

Speaker, the people of this Province would do well to consider the consequences of the actions and tactics of this nature cy the federal Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources (..Mr. Chretien) • The first and perhaps most ocvious consequence is the blatant abuse by Mr. Chretien of the narrow legal jurisdiction which the Supreme Court of Canada recently placed in the Government of Canada. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: I am not aware that the court intended to confer upon Mr. Chretien this jurisdiction for 2028

April 6, 1984 Tape 754 EC 2 MR. MARSHALL: his own personal use. This is a blatant abuse of one's power, which is made all the more distasteful when exercised in a province so closely following a court decision which has such grave and serious implications for the people of this Province . MR. DINN: Disgrace~ul! MR. MARSHALL: The second, and perhaps more important question, is to ask whether this is the way the new found jurisdiction is to be exercised by Ottawa? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: Unilateral announcements of exploration agreements, Mr.

Speaker, in contemptuous disdain of the Province which brought the resource into Confederation, are .not one step removed, not one single step removed, Mr. Speaker, from announcements that floating rather than concrete platforms will be used. Indeed, are we to hear from a national reporter that Newfoundland will not .even see the oil, but it is to be transported to other provinces,by-passing us, say,to Quebec or to Nova Scotia? Are we to be advised that revenues will flow Westward, as well, with this Province merely receiving grants from its own resources in lieu of equalization payments?

The implications of the actions by the federal minister, Mr. Speaker,have most serious and grave implications for this Province, and we protest in the strongest possible terms. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: It must b.e noted, as well, that Mr. Chretien's actions belie his repeated contention that he wishes to be fair with the Province of Newfoundland. How can a man contend he wishes to 2029

•·--- - -- I -- Apirl 6, 1984 Tape No. 755 H __ ~. HARSHALL: be fair with the Province of Ne,'lfoundland when he does· not even rnetion to me about a. $750 million exploration agreement \'lhen r met with him privately to welcome him to the precincts of the aouse? SOME HON . MEMBERS : Oh, oh. SD - 1 MR. MARSHALL : It must be plain, Mr. Speaker, for all to see why it has· been impossible to negotiate any agreement with the present government in Ottawa. Wh .en one sees action such as that perpetrated by Mr.

Chretien yesterday, how can the present administration in the national capital possibly contend it is prepared to negotiate fairly or equally or,indeed 1negotiate at all with this Province? This is a Province of Canada, Mr. Speaker, . with a .Proud and rich history behind it. It is not a municipality, it will not accept colonial status and neither, Mr. Speaker, is it a'· fiefdom of either the central government or one of its ministers. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Rear, hear. MR.

MARSHALL: The type of action which the federal minister employed yesterday,in direct opposition to the courteous way in which he was received by the government of this Province,must surely be nnacceotable both within and without this · Province. It must surely show all Canadians · how · imposs ·ible it is to negotiate an honourable and equal deal with those presently in office at Ottawa, You cannot stri'ke ,. Mr. Speaker, an acceptable agreement with persons who obviously view the Supreme Court of Canada de.cision as a fiat to trample upon Newfoundland. And, Mr. Speaker, we will not be trampled upon. SOME HON.

MEMBERs ·: Hear, hear. MR. . MARSHALL: It now must be crystal clear, Mr. Speaker, that we will only be able to enter into an agreement wi ·th a new administration in Ottawa. Let me say the responsibility upon that new administration to conclude 2030

April 6, 19.84 Tape No. 755 SD - 2 MR. MARSHALL·: a fair and just deal with this Province is very heavy. Otherwise the dream of Confederation will turn into a permanent nightmare. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER CRussell)_: MR. BARRY: Hear, hear. The han. member for Mount Scio. Mr. Speaker, I had the opportunity of speaking with Mr. Chretien after the announcement was made and Mr. Chretien•s position, the federal minister•s position, was very simple, very brief, very straightforward. He said, 'Tf the Newfoundland Minister responsible for Energy CMr.

Marshall) does not want to speak with me, does not want to negotiate withme, despite my repeated invitation for him to do so, then why should I speak with him? Why should I, • Mr. Speaker,. 1 if I am given a blank wall , no response to my repeated offers to sit down and negotiate a fair deal for Newfoundland i:n the offshore , then why should I speak to them about the details wh.en they will not deal with me on the es·sence?• SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEA:KE.R: MR. BARRY: Chretien •· s· response. SOME HON •. MEMBERS': MR. SPEAKER: ~. BARRY: Oh., oh. Order, please:.· I am giving han. members ·Hr.

Oh, oh, Order, please~ It i:s something that the Newfoundland minister has to deal with, 2031

April 6, 1984, Tape 756, Page 1 -- apb MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the Newfoundland minister has to face certain facts.

He has to face the fact that there is a Supreme Court of Canada, he has to face the fact that the Supreme Court of Canada has the final say on legal matters, he has to face the fact that that Court has said that ownership and jurisdiction lies with the Government of Canada, with the federal government, and he has to face the fact that the .only way of changing that situation is by an agreement leading to a constitutional arnendment 1 and, therefore, he has to face the fact that he must get back to the bargaining table to negotiate an agreement. And what we have instead, Mr.

Speaker, we have a statement of bravado and defiance. 'There is not way they are going to make us'- what is the minister saying? Is he defying ~he authority of the Supreme Court of canada? Is he unwilling to face the reality? I say to the minister, face the facts. You took your case to court and you lost and you have to live with the consequences. Be a man and face that fac~.and sit down with the federal government, ~ negotiate a deal on the offshore which will be fair to Newfoundland. And unless the government faces that fact, Mr. Speaker, they will see more and more failure as we had announced here again today.

MR. SPEAKER(RussellJ: Order, please! ORAL QUESTIONS MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, yesterday I was asking the Minister of Municipal Affairs(Mrs.Newhook) some questions when the time for the Question Period elapsed. However, today I would like to continue with questions to the hon. minister. ' 2032

April 6, 1984, Tape 756, Page 2 -- apb MR. WARREN: Are the requirements for town councils and communities throughout the province of Newfoundland and Labrador the same for all communi ties when they are applying for grants and loans for water and sewerage projects? MRS. NEWHOOK~ I.have al~eady answered the question. MR. WARREN: I \·Till ask it again pov1. You-listen. MR. HICKEY: Do not bother answering 'him. )lou do not boi1 your cabbage twice. MR. SPEAKER(Russell): The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MRS. NEWHOOK: Mr.

Speaker, in applying for water and sewer projects the requirements are the same for all residents of the Province. I think the hon. member yesterday was tal~ing about the payment toward water and sewer debt, and he was talking about 15 per cent, but I would like to explain, Mr. Speaker, that 15 per cent is a minimum requirement of repayment and that many municipali-t;.ies pay anywhere from J.S per cent up to 100 per cent of . their water and l:iewer debt. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the m.ini-ttter. MR. SPEAKER: The hon.the member for Torng.at Mountains. 2033

. --. ·-------.:.... -~- - April 6, 1984 Tape No. 757 NM - 1 MR. WARREN: However, when a town only has a tax base of some $60,000- ,for example, Cartwright and Nain have I $60,000 to $100,000 as a tax base - even if that town has to pay the - - ... _ - . -· - -- 100 per cent, why is the minister saying to the Nain Council, "You have to take $170,000 out of the Native Peoples Agreement, out of federal money, and pay us back $170,000 each year for phase one"?

Why is the minister telling the Council in Nain, "You are going to be treated different because you are getting some money from Ottawa under the Native Peoples Agreement••which can be used to build houses? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs. MRS • NEWHOOK: · Mr. Speaker, any other municipality in this Province . receivin~ federal funding-s ,_ or any fundings from other sources , would be required to pay their installments on their water and sewer debts the same as we do for quite a number of municipalities. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, the minister is not factual in her answers. The minister has used the Native Peoples Agreement ;' mo-ney -f-rom Nain, \·lhich is money for services, for houses, for so many things, · The minister can understand from yesterday that Nain needs so much, and all of a sudden they have used this lever, Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. member is making a speech; he should be asking a question. MR. WARREN: Okay, Mr.

Speaker, Uy final supplementary to the minister is ~-muld the minister review the circumstances that she has bound the Nain Council in in repaying the debt charges? Would the minister review the 2034 .• --' ........ .

April 6, 1984 Tape No. 757 NM - 2 MR. WARREN: circumstances and see if this money can be released for some other worthwhile projects that are needed in Nain,such as some sixty houses for people to live in who are presently living in government owned houses which are unfit to live in • . MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs. MRS. NEWHOOK: Mr. Speaker, I think that the Native fundings available to the municipalities in Labrador is being very well spent in providing water and sewer. ~hen it is necessary to have our programme reviewed it will be done, Mr. Speaker.

But I understand from same ._of the municipalities that they are very happy to have their installments paid through the Native Fundings Agreement. It means that they do not have to take a percentage of their local revenues to pay for that water and sewer. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I might say before I put my question to the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey), yellow is certainly the right colour for hon. gentlemen there opposite. It seems like an eternity, not two years.

I might point out for the benefit of hon. members of the House that · the Prime Minister of Canada 2035

April 6, 1984 Tape 758 PK - l MR. NEARY: was elected sixteen years ago today, April 6, as Leader of the Liberal Party of Canada, an outstanding Canadian, an outstanding Liberal, with a great record, Mr. Speaker, with a better record that than crowd over there. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! This appears to be a rather different kind of a

preamble to a question. MR. NEARY: Well,let ~e fling a quickie at the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) before I get back I at the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe). Could the minister tell the House if his department is negotating with the owners of a very well-known motel in Corner Brook with a view to taking over that motel as a nursing horne or a senior citizens' horne? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Social Services. MR. HICKEY: : Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman might consider the Prime Minister of Canada the greatest Liberal , but even some Liberals would question that.

If he is going to consider him .the greatest _Canadian, there is a great number of people who would question that. I am not sure what he is the greatest of and certainly the rules of the House will not permit me to say exactly how I feel about the hen. gentleman. It is a poor time for him to heap praise on the Prime Minister, a very poor time. Mr. Speaker, to get to the question that the hon. gentleman asked: The Salvation Army more than a year ago carne to my department with a proposal for a chronic care facility and they indicated their intent and wiah to purchase a motel in the area.

Discussions have been ongoing • The · chronic care facility we could not go along •' with. we suggested other things that they might look at but 1 not in relation to any purchase of a motel. It is immaterial 2036

April 6, 1984 MR. HICKEY: they purchas Tape 758 PK - 2 to us, Mr. Speaker, whether any given building or whether they not. We have no interest in any building. We are not involved in any way in the purchase of any building . We are dealing with the Salvation Army which wishes to provide certain services which are ~ot available in_the West Coast city. And the Salvation Army has an enviable record in this Province in dealing with this government and delivering services to our people. , So discussio ·ns are ongoing 7 and J 2037

April 6, 19B4 Tape No. 759 MJ- 1 MR. HICKEY: a number of areas of service have been discussed. Indeed, j.ust J ,about · tw·o weeks ago I met with a committee from the West Coast and had further discussions 1 refining some areas of service that the y were now interested in but unfortunately I cannot say there was any agreement reached. I would emphasize again that the purchase of any building is of no interest to us~ We . are interested in the services that they might be able to provide and under what cost-sharing arrangement and what way we can help them provide them. MR. NEARY: MR.

SPEAKER (Russell) : Opposition a supplementary. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Leader of the Mr. SpjO!aker, if the sale of the motel in corner Brook does materialize,could the hon. gentleman tell the House what involvement the administration there opposite will have?

Will there be 1for instance 1a guarantee of occupancy so that the Salvation Armv 1if they purchase that motel via Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation or through some other source,will it be necessary, will the Province, will the hon. gentleman's department have to make any commitments in the way of guaranteed occupancy with a provision, a stipulation that they would have to pick up any deficits that may be incurred in the operation of that home if it becomes a home? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the :Minister of · Social Services. MR. HIC~EY: Mr.

Speaker, it is hard for me to believe that the hon. gentleman is serious in looking across at this government to think we ·would be so J stupid; so crazy, to guarantee occupanc y when in fact in 1~72 I oresided over the wiping out of that craz y system of guaranteed occupanc y which cost the Province hundreds of millions of dollars over 2038

...... ________ . _ _____...____ __ . __ April 6, 1984 Tape No. 759 ~~ - 2 MR. NEA.."qY : the years. Now to say that we burnt those bridges and are now going to find ourselves in a situation to get right smack back into the same kind of policy is, to say the least, the ultimate. Let me assure the hon. gentleman and the Rouse that this government through my department have no intentions,nor ever have there been any discussion of guaranteeing any occupancy. I am not at liberty, !tt. S~eaker, to speak for the Salvation Army. I walk a very tiqht line here because it .is 2039

April 6, 1984 Tape 760 EC - l MR. HICKEY: not my intention, nor do I wish to trespass upon what is properly the territory of the Salvation Army to say how and when and why and all the rest 1that they would buy or purchase any given building in the West Coast city.

Let me simply assure the House tha~ my discussions - and I have been involved in all the discussions myself with - -- -~·· ~··-~· -·-- my officials - have centered around the provision of se.rvices, such services to the largest extent being dealt with on a user-pay basis under the Social Assistance programme - no occupancy, guarantee, no grants, no nothing of any kind. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The han. the Leader of the · Opposition, a supplementary. 'MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, let me make this abundantly clear.

Is the han. gentleman saying that the Salvation Army merely carne to his department to enquire if they bought this motel. what kind of a service they would provide? The han. gentleman's department certainly_issues the licences and the permits and says what would be necessary, what would have to be done to adapt that building - we are talking about the Marnateek Motel, are we not? - what would be necessary to be done with that motel in order to convert it into a senior citizens home or a nursing home. Now, Mr. Speaker, the han. gentle­ man says the occupancy formula was dropped.

The occupancy formula was .not dropped and has not been dropped to this day. Is the han. gentleman aware that all the interfaith homes that have been built in this Province and the ones that will be built in future are guaranteed 90 per cent occupancy and, Mr. Speaker, that this motel will not be purchased - 2040

April 6, 1984 Tape 760 EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! Order, please! The Chair recognized the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) on a supplementary question and he is certainly appearing, at least, to the Chair 1 to be getting into a round of debate on this issue. I would ask if he would like to di~ect a question. MR. NEARY: Well, perhaPs Your Honour was not listening, Mr. Speaker.

I said is the hon. gentleman aware that the purchase of this motel hinges on whether or not they can get the guarantee of occupancy from the ~on. gentleman and get the proper permits and licences from the hon. gentleman to operate a service, a senior citizens horne or a nursing horne? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, the hon~ gentleman may think his memory is pretty good, but I can assure him mine is better, at least today.

I personally presided over the wiping out of the 90 per cent occupancy formula for senior citizens homes in this Province in 1972 when I was Minister of Social Services. Interfaith nursing homes, Mr . Speaker, are financed today as a non-profit venture by providing budgets and through the charges of rentals and the board and lodging rates of residents, so much, and the bulk of it by the Province, so as to arrive at a break~even situation at the end of the year. There is no guaranteed occupancy, that is why there are no vacant rooms around in those institutions today. Now, Mr.

Speaker, to come back to the central issue, the building the hon. gentleman refers to. 2041

April 6,1984 Tape No. 761 ah-1 MR.HICKEY: He has said that the whole thing hinges on a guarantee of occupancy by my department. I can tell the hon. gent1eman that from day one when I entered into discussions with the Salvation Army that I made it clear to the Salvation Army, one, I was not interested in the Mamateek Motel, I did not care whether it was the Mamateek Motel or any other motel or any other building, I was not going to deal with the Salvation Army,or anybody else,to try to fit a building on to a service. I told them if they wished to purchase the Mamateek Motel that was up to them.

I told them if after inspection, if after our people inspecting it in relation to the services that we would be interested in having them provide,the building was found to be suitable 1 we might then be able to sit down and discuss the details. We have talked about, over the last year, Mr. Speaker, a whole range of services. Some discussions have taken place and then ultimately dropped. One such service was a treatment centre for alcohol and drug abusers on the West Coast ano the Salvation Army opted out of that.

The y did not want to get into the areas that we felt were necessary if in fact that service was going to be provided. When that would have started and the financial arrangements is a whol~ brand-new issue, Mr. Speaker. We did not get into that at all, it was just in ·terms of a concept _. Finally, Mr. Speaker, let me conclude by saying that the present situation with regards to the Salvation Army has no connection through my department with any building 1 including the Mamateek Motel. No purchase or anything else is conditional upon or 2042

April 6,1984 Tape No. 761 ah-2 MR . HICKEY: agreement by this department of government on behalf of the gove .rnment in saying, you know, we will do this, we will do that, we will do something else. I have · told them repeatedly,and I told them again on evenings two weeks ago , three people having come in from Corner Brook , that really we are not intere sted in what building you buy, we cannot tailor our services to suit any building you have in mind .

So I must repeat _again ,for the fourth or fifth time ,what I have told you, if you end up with that building and we c an use part of it , o kay , we will sit down and talk to you ,but our discu ssi ons cannot be predicated on your thinking or believing that in buying this building we will accept any responsibility or indeed guarantee occupancy of any oortion thereof. 2043

'. April 6, 1984 Tape No. 762 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): of the Opposition. Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the han. Leader MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman seems to like to play with words, 'guaranteed occupancy', 'picking up deficits for these interfa~th homes', what is the difference? It is the same thing. You are going to guarantee their occupancy or you pick up a deficit, it is one thing or the other. And the han. gentleman has been picking up the deficit for these homes.

Now let me ask the han. gentleman a final supplementary question in connection with this proposal that is on the table, Could the han. gentleman tell the House what the Salvation Army wanted when they came to see the hon. gentleman?

Did they just merely want to put out feelers· to determine if a home of a certain kind was· necessary i:n western Newfoundland t or did they ask th.e hon. gentleman if he would give them the same arrangement as he has given all the other homes in Newfoundland, the interfaith homes I am referring to, the same financial arrangement that they would pay so much of the cos·t of patients in these homes· and pick up any deficit at the end of the year? MR •. SPEAI<ER: The han. Minister of Social Services. MR. HICKEY: Mr.

Speaker, again, for th.e ump­ teenth time, there is a grave difference between 'guaranteed occupancy' and ''picking up defic.;i..:ts ''. The critical difference is, Mr. Speaker, and one of; the chief reasons why we. wiped it out,is that when you guarantee an occupancy you could have fifty rooms vacant for twelve months of the year but you still have to pick up the tab. That is what I presided over the wiping out of,. the absolute crimi·nal waste of funds. Now~ Mr.. Speaker, to pick up a 2044

_____ ...__ 1. '~· ... ~ ~:~ April 6, 1984 Tape No . 762 SD - 2 MR . HICKEY: deficit really enables a corporation or a board of directors to function effectively and efficiently and deliver a service, all rooms filled, because they have an incentive to keep those rooms filled . And, the bottom line ,the total operating cos .t is divided by the number of people living in \...\at· institution. They contribute a small amount and the government, through the taxpayers of the Province 1 picks up the horrendous! y larg e amount . And that is how the interfaith homes function today. Let me tell the hon. gentleman 2045

April 6, 1984 Tape No. 763 MR. HICKEY: again, I have not talked to the Salvation Army, they have not talked to me about picking up any deficits. I would not entertain such discussion. I do not have money to give away like that. I have talked to the Salvation Army,with, by the way, Mr. Speaker, a great NM - 1 deal of interest 1in providing certain services. For example,there is no Harbour Light service in Corner Brook, there is no detox centre in Corner Brook, there is no emergency boarding home in Corner Brook, there is not sufficient licenced boarding homes in Corner Brook.

There is a senior citizens'home in Corner Brook and that is why we rejected the initial proposal for another senior citizens' home. We have one there that we must work on and convert into a full-fledged chronic care facility so that it responds to the greatest need in the community,which is levels two and three nursing care. And that is why we had to reject that initial proposal.

Where we are now is a number and variety of services that we are talking to the Salvation Army about and we are telling them,and being very frank with them,that we cannot guarantee anything, indeed we cannot even guarantee they would use any part of the building they are talking about even if they acquired it,or even if they came along tomorrow and acquired it. Finally, Mr. Speaker, and most importantly of all 1 because this is what the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) has been centering on, we have no commitment or agreement, nor have we had any discussions about the purchase of the Mamateek Motel by way of giving any guaranteed~ yor picking up any deficit, or in any way being responsible for it. 2046

April 6, 1984 MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Tape No. 763 NM- 2 A final supplmentary, Mr. Speaker. The han. the Leader of the Opposition, a final supplementary. MR. NEARY: Could the han. gentleman inform the House, Mr. Speaker, as a result of .his deliberations and his discussions with the Salvation Army,if he has brought this matter before his Cabinet colleagues? MR. SPEAKER: Social Services. MR. HICKEY: The han. Minister of Mr. Speaker, I do not mind answering that question. I hesitate just on the basis as to whether or not I am setting a precedent, so I will take that question under advisement.

I will simply say this,however~ I do very little that I am unsure of, but most things I am fairly sure about when I discuss and meet with delegations throughout ~he Province. One gets to know one's department when one is there eiqht or nine years. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: The han. gentleman did not answer my question, Mr. Speaker. Did the han. gentleman bring the proposal to his Cabinet colleagues or did he not? A simple yes or no answer. MR. SPEAKER: Services. MR. HICKEY: The han. Minister of Social Mr.

Speaker, I said I have no problem in answering if it admissable to answer such a question. I hesitate because I am not quite sure whether I would be setting a precedent' to stand in my place and talk about what I have taken to Cabinet or what I have not. In the interest of not setting any precedent, and keeping myself 2047

April 6, 1984 Tape No. 763 NM - 3 MR. HICKEY: out of trouble by answering wrongly, I will take that under advisement. If it is not to set a precedent,! will answer. I have not reason not to. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. 2048

April 6, 1984, Tape 764, Page 1 - - apb MR. SPEAKER(Russell): Mount Scio. MR. BARRY: The hon. the member for I would like to ask the Minister responsible for Energy(Mr. Marshall) whether the case to which he referred, the Ocelot Industries case, has been reviewed in light of the different wording of the National Energy Act, the Act under which the National Energy Board functions, the way that deals differently with hydroelectricity and with oil and gas? MR. SPEAKER: of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: The hon. the President Mr.

Speaker, I am glad the hon. gentleman addressed the question because it gives me a chance, in part, to respond to his response to my statement that I was not afforded before. That case has been reviewed, certainly it has been reviewed, and it is deemed to be exactly siThilar to our intervention before the National Energy Board. Now, the hon. gentleman can get all bound up in legalistic jargon and all the rest of it, and I know that is his occupation as well as it is mine, but you also have to practical as well and realize the consequences of all of this, and really the consequences of all of this, Mr.

Speaker, is that this Province has continued to be denied its rights and we were using this for - - ·- the purpose of trying to secure these rights to the Upper Churchill contract where now we are getting some $7 million or $8 million a year.

Through the National Energy Board we were attempting to get ourselves in a posiiton where we could be in a much stronger position than we were before, and instead of that, I mean, the net practical result of all of this is that Quebec is given export licences to export in part power that it-nas gotten -from us, t>lhere it is going to derive revenues of between $500 million and $1.2 billion 2049

-- -·- --- ·- Ap~il 6f 1984, Tape 764f Page 2 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: a year from that. And it is just not fair and the basis is just not fair. I am surprised to .hear the hon. gentleman,when he . . J~ ; crossed the House, ;take such a diametric opposite ----- position as he has taken today on the two statements, on the one hand al~ost championing the position of the Liberals and the members there opposite against this Province trying to get justice and equity from the Upper Churchilliand, on the other hand, exulting in Mr. Chretien's despicable actions yesterday when he was accorded the courtesies of this House.

He wonders about me speaking to him. I went in to speak to him and to welcome him to the House. The hon. gentleman sees nothing wrong with that. He has had some conversion, Mr. Speaker, but he has had a conversion on a downward road. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER(Russelll.: The hon. the member for Mount Scio. MR. BARRY: . Mr. Speaker, in light of the decision of the National Energy Board, is the minister saying that there is some form of concerted action or conspiracy between the National Energy Board and the Government of Canada?

And in saying that the result is not fair, is the minis.ter questioning the impartiality of the National Energy Board, this quasi-judicial body? 2050

April 6, 1984 Tape 765 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. MARSHALL: The hon. President of the Council. I know the hon. gentleman is paranoid. He was paranoid over the Premier when he was over here and that is why he is over there at the present time. Mr. Speaker, my statement speaks for itself. I recited facts. There was no :.ention made in that statement of any conspiracy. It was, I thought, a reasoned, rational statement of the reaction of this government to the decision and the reasons why the government deems the decisions to be unfair, and the actions which the government have taken.

Now the hon. gentleman can see flies on the wall all he likes. The fact of the matter is that this Province today is fighting for its life. It is fighting for its life with respect to the offshore resources, with respect to the hydro and with respect to the fishery. The position taken by the hon. gentleman, I mean nobody is infallible except the hon. gentleman. I heard one of the disgraceful comments he made on the National Energy Board decision, about was the case presented properly. I remember it, but I could not say anything about it because he was in the caucus at the time.

But on television, just a few months before he crossed over on the offshore case he suggested it was not presented properly. So you could get the impression that he was a better lawyer than Mr. Jim Greene, an eminent. lawyer here in this Province, and Dr. Marston. The Premier was not doing things properly, Mr. Speaker, so you got the impression he would be a better Premier than the Premier, and the Minister of Energy (Mr. Marshall) was not doing things properly so he would make a better Minister of Energy. MR. BARRY: That is right. DR. COLLINS: Not a lawyer. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, I might be prepared to concede him the latter but I am not going to concede him all of the former. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 2051

April 6, 1984 MR. TULK: to something. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. BARRY: Tape 765 PK - 2 Well, at least you admitted The hon. member for Mount Scio. In light of this additional setback and failure on the part of the minister, is the minister now in a position to inform~his House whether he is prepared to look at putting a counteroffer to the Province of Quebec with a view to attempting to settle the Upper Churchill contract dispute before the minister risks getting another slap in the face and has to turn around and challenge the authority of the Supreme Court of Canada on the Water Rights Revision Act? MR.

MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Now he exults with the people opposite. He calls it failures, he calls it setbacks. Mr. Speaker, the only failure in life is that you do not try, and this administration will try w~th every sinew in it to redress the wrongs which we face in Confederation. A large part of it nas been cast upon us by the colleagues of the hen. gentlemen there opposite. MR. SIMMS: Right on. MR. MARSHALL: It was no setback and it was no failure, Mr. Speaker! We will continue and, eventually, we will get justice and equity from our 2052

April 6, 1984 Tape No .. 766 ~..J - l MR. MARSHALL: IES~es, desPite the kowtowing of the hon. gentlemen there opposite · whom the hon. member has joined• He tries to say, 'Will we sit down.' Look, the negotiations with the Province of Quebec were initiated by this government - and we succeeded in getting into the psyche of the Province of Quebec and the details of our relationship on the Upper Churchill in a way that no other minister h~d been able to do before. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: And, Mr.

Speaker, I am not going to jeopardize it by giving the details in the House now because what we want and why we are striving is to see those negotiations continue.

But I can tell the han. gentleman there opposite something, as he sits down exulting with the people who are in Newfoundland but not for Newfoundland, I can tell him something~ We will negotiate this and we will negotiate with honour 1 but we will not capitulate,as I am sure the hon. gentleman would have capitulated when the heat was too hot for him and he scrammed out of the Cabinet, and then for -opportunism he scrammed over to the other side of the House. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hearl MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (RUssell) : The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR.

NEARY: They should .get a little button for the han. gentleman marked, • Our Hero' on it, Mr. Speaker. I want to direct my question to the Minister of Forest ~esources and Lands (Mr. Power), Mr. Speaker. The hon. gentleman seems to have caused some alarm and some concern in Grand Falls with statements he 2053

····-· ·-· · -- . . .. ---·· ·--- ~--- April 6, 1984 Tape No. 766 MJ - 2 MR. NEARY: made the other day in connection with the Grand Falls paper mill. The hon. gentleman,when speaking on the West Coast, told the people on the West Coast that in a few years the Grand Falls paper mill would be in serious trouble and then left the thing hanging in the air, did not elaboratg on it. Now could the hon. gentleman spell out some of the details? What is wrong with the mill? What needs to be done? Has he talked to the company about it? What needs to be done to get new technology in that mill?

Do not go out on the West Coast, just because he was invited for a speaking engagement, and make these off-the-cuff statements and then leave everybody hanging in the air. Will the hon. gentleman tell the House waat is going to be done about it before it gets in trouble? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr.

Speaker, let me just say that if there is any confusion it is confusion in the minds of the persons who have not followed the newsprint :industry and who seem to pay only momentary notice to itr Certainly the members of the Opposition do not seem to be very well informed or very much aware of what is happening in the forestry industry in tnis Province.

What I have said on the T'l'est Coast of this Province is what I have said" many times in the Province, that we have an industry in Newfoundland of three parts in• newsprint, one being the part r,in Stephenville ,which is extremely modern, has an extremely secure futurej the other mill is a mill,I guess, 2054

April 6, 1984 Tape 767 EC - 1 MR. :POWER: at the other end of the scale in Corner Brook, which badly needs modernization, problems which are immediate, problems which require a fairly large amount of funds to rectifyi and somewhere in between t~ose two, the modern mill in Stephenville and the antiquated mill in Corner Brook, somewhere in the middle part of that scale is the mill in Grand Falls, which has and will have a need for !!Odernization for some time to come. As the modernization problems are rectified in Grand Falls, because the company, ACitioi-:Price, has made a commitment - SOME HON. MEMBERS: .MR.

POWER: Hear, hear! - to Canadian newsprint on one hand, a particular commitment to Grand Falls, Stephenville and Newfoundland. They have nade that commitment to modernize their plant in Grand Falls. It will take ·a very fair amount of capital for them to do that. They have made that commitment. The commitment now, I guess, lacks just the cash flow and dollars in order to do the work. What I have said on the West Coast, as I have said many, many times, Nr.

Speaker, is that the mill in Grand Falls could be in the same situation as Bowater Corner Brook now is if the company were not to make that decision to ~odernize the mill. The decision has been made by the company to do the work; they know the work has to be done. They have made a commitment to Newfoundland because they know it is a good place to do business, it is a good place to make profit, it is a good place to produce news~rint and it has a good member for Grand Falls (Mr. Simms) besides. And as soon as cash flows of the Abitibi-Price company are improved to the 2055

April 6, 1984 Tape 767 EC - 2 MR. POWER: point where they can do the modernization, then I am convinced, as the Premier and I have had negotiations with the senior executive of Abitibi, that the mill will be modernized and that we will have a very long-term, stable operation in Grand Falls, as Abitibi now has in ~tephenville. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! has · expired. MR. NEARY : MR. SPEAKER: Opposition. The time for Question Period 0 0 0 On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Th~ han. the Leader of the MR . NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, as Your Honour knows, we keep going to the troubl~ and the expense and the inconvenience of.writing questions, putting them on the Order Paper for hon. gentlemen to answer, Mr. Speaker, and they do not seem to be answering the questions very promptly. Now, I wonder is it within Your Honour's power to direct the administration there opposite to answer the written questions, or can they ignore them? Can they procrastinate? Can they let several hundred questions go unanswered every session, Mr. Speaker? Is this the crowd that are going to give the people of this Province all the information they can, Mr.

Speaker, or are they going to continue to cover up and hide the information and keep the information away from the people of this Province? MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Council. MR. MARSHALL: To that point of order, The han. the President of the Mr. Speaker, I would say that most of the questions are in the course of being answered; 2056

April 6, 1984 Tape 767 EC - 3 MR. MARSHALL: a lot of them have been answered already. But a lot of the questions are of the type the hon. gentleman has on the Order Paper today - they only have thirty-eight questions after about twenty days of sitting - the same question he asked the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) yesterday, tqe request that he give the details of the guarantee involving Gerald Ryder and Walter Street. Now, the minister gave it to him yesterday. Mr.

Speaker, if he cannot understand it orally he is not going to understand it in \Yriting, but the government will strive to provide as much information as possible. This is the most open government that has ever been in the Province of Newfoundland and we are very responsive with respect to our responsibilities. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! To that point of order, on three or four occasions now at this point in the proceedings, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) has risen on a point of order to try to find out whether or not the Chair has any authority to force ministers to answer verbal questions. I am sure the hon. the Leader of the Opposition knows the answer to that. It would appear that it is sort of a waste of time of the Legislature . Indeed, it is not a valid point of order. 2057

April 6, 1984 Tape No. 768. NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Before calling Orders of the Day, a couple of days ago there was a point of order raised by the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary), I guess when the hon. Minister of- Transportation (Mr. Dawe) was answering a question,. Subsequently the Chair recognized the hon. member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter), and the hon. Leader made a remark in the form of a question,! guess, "Is this the way it is going to be done now, Mr. Speaker, in this House?" I have read the transcript and it does not appear to be challenging the authority of the Chair.

Certain proceedings which took place that day,perhaps were a little unusual. I would like to say that certainly it is the Chair's prerogative to recognizewhomever ;;-- ~ees .. ktanding flrst and that is exactly what happened - 1 on that day. I would also like to say that certainly the opportunity to ask supplementary questions shall be continued in this House as well. MR. NEARY: A point of information, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I believe there is a very grave and serious matter oustanding that the Chair has not dealt with, I wonder if Your Honour could indicate to me when the Chair will be dealing with the most serious unparliamentary language that I have ever heard in this House since I have been here 1 in my twenty-two years, made by the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter)! Your Honour undertook to check the Hansard and to give a ruling. And,by the way,this point of order was before the one Your Honour just ruled on. So I do not know if Your Honour is still studying the matter, where the member for 2058

·- ~-- - -=- ~ -- -.:... - ~-- - - April 6, 1984 Tape No. 768 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: St. John's North referred to six judges of the Supreme Court - MR. SIMMS: That was ruled on. MR. NEARY: It was ruled on? No. MR. SIMMS: Which one? The McCarthyism one? MR. NEARY: No, no. The han. crentleman made a remar~ I believe three times he shouted -it across the qouse 1 that six judges of the Supreme Court were party hacks, And, Mr. Speaker, it has not been ruled on. !rr . Speaker, that is one incident that we cannot procrastinate on.

That is the most serious example of unparliamentary language that we have ever had in this House. And I would like to know from the Chair when Your Honour intends to deal with that matter? MR. MARSHALL : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Obviously Your Honour will give whatever response Your Honour feels fit but,you know,that is not an appropriate question to ask the Chair. Your Honour has points of order under advisement and you do not get up and ask hypothetical questions of the Chair of the nature that the han. gentleman is asking.

The Chair does not report to this side of the House or to that side of the House, and ; he is not here at the direction or the fiat of the han. gentleman. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I am sure that the hon . gentleman who was in the Chair ·at the time that point was raised will be dealing with it shortly. 2059

· ~-- ---'-4 -·- ~ ·-- --- April 6, 1984 Tape No. 768 ORDERS OF THE DAY: COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY On motion,that the House resolve itself into Comm~ttee of the Whole on Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. 2060 NM - 3

.. ; -~·-- April 6, 1984 Tape No. 769. SD .,... 1 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE MR. CHAI'RMAN (Aylward}: Order, please! we are discus·si:ng Consolidated Fund. The hon.· Leader of the Oppositic'"l• MR. NEARY: Mr, Chairman, today in the House when r as ·K.ed when the government was going to give us answers to questions, the Government ff.ouse Leader (Mr. Marshall) picked up the Order Paper and read out one question. Hell, there are two other questions on that Order Paper that require answers ·, Mr, Chairman. Why did he pick that one and not pick the oth _er two?

Well, let me read the other two questions and then ask the Minister of Finance rnr, Coilinsl if he can provide us with. the information while we are on this · subhead. MR. S'IMMS :: You will get your answers. MR.

NEARY: 'The log for the LFY aircraft . - . (aerial survey plane) dating back to April 6, 1982, shm·!ing the following information: The purpose of the flight each time the aircraft went aloft; names of the PC MHAs carried on the aircraft during thi:s time; stopovers made between point of departure and point of destination and reasons for such stopovers; cost of each trip carrying PC MHASi purpos'l? of trips carrying PC MHAs· and cost of individual trips transporting PC MHAs<' Now,the hon. gentleman does not consider that question to be very important. NOWf who was: the other question directed to?

The other question was directed to the Minister of Transportation CMr. Dawel who, the other day in this Hous ·e, Mr Chairman, I would not say h.e deliberately misled th .e House but he misled the Irouse and in so doing attempted to mislead the people of this Province,because the hon. gentleman has chartered aircraft from Labrador Airways. 2061

Apri l 6 , 19 84 MR . S If.!!-15 : - . MR . NEARY : had n o t . MR . STIU:I!S: - MR . NEARY : I ' ,.,._-----· ·-·-~.:..:.::.::.:::.::·....:.~- T.ape No. 76 9 SD - 2 He did not say he had not. He certainly did say that he __ Yo~ said E._e -~_it tn ~lu!Je. ·-· Yes , that was the purpose of the exercise, with. a £ew stops in I:Jetweerr, ; to take him home. That was what the aircra~t was chartered ~or. AN HON •. MEMBER: _,Just to make it look good. -~ - -- . - -- - -· - - . ~- MR. NEARY: Just to make it look good.

The hon. gentleman was on the radio the day before saying that he had bus:tnees- meetings·~ with a ~avaj 0 aircraft I $1 I 6 0 a o A:nyway, Mr. Chairman, here is another que~tion. '·The number of aircraft chartered from Labrador Airways by the minister since April 6, 1982, and the cos~ of these a:tr~::c:t~~ __ _ ----- l 2062

April 6,1984 Tape No. 770 ah-1 MR.NEARY: the type of aircraft; the purpose of the charter; stopovers made between point of -·- departure and point of destination and · reasons for such s-topovers; the number o_f passengers on board each aircraft; names of passengers carried on each chartered flight', and the destination of the aircraft.'' Now, Mr. Chairman, the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) obviously does not seem to think that these questions are very important.

The fact of the matter is,that the misuse and the abuse of the government aircraft continued after they grounded the King Air. ·~'hen they grounded the King Air and tried to fool us into thinking that government aircraft would be only used in future -' for emergencies .:·for hospital cases,-we find out that just about every Friday the hen. Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) zooms into Stephenville aboard a Labrador Airways Navajo,going horne for the weekend. 1·1R. DOYLE: We are as clean as a hound's ·tooth • .MR.NEARY: Indeed you are as clean as a hound's tooth.

So I ask the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins), before we pass this subhead, if he could give us that information , Mr. Chairman~ Table the log of the LFY. Has the hen. gentleman ever been aboard of the LFY? HR. DOYLE : What . is the LFY? MR.NEARY: The LFY is the plane that was pu,rchased and paid for by the Government of Canada for aerial photography in the forests. MR. SIHHS: I believe I was on it once,yes. We were doing some wildlife photography. 2063 :____;.f..~-

April 6,1984 Tape No. 770 ah-2 MR. NEARY: Oh, you were. Well I wonder if the member for Humber West (Mr. Baird) has ever been aboard it? Or the Minister of ~ducation (Ms Verge)? tm. snms: 1 Steve 1 , •·re were doing some wildlif~ photography. MR. NEARY: Yes, indeed you were. I know the kind of wildlife that was going on. HR. snms: No, you do not. MR.NEARY: ~.Chairman, I do know. HR. DA~VE: ) Have you asked the members on your own side how often they have been on that particular aircraft? MR.NEARY: On the LFY and on the chartered flights? . . UR. SIHI-l:S: Yes. Check with a couple of them. l1R.

DOYLE: t" There were very legitimate reasons why we were on. MR.NEARY: Who was on for very legitimate reasons? Mr. Chairman, these aircraft are nat for taking the ministers home on weekends, flying minis.ters out to the West Coast and Central Newfoundland. So the question 1· has to be answered. Mr. Chairman, als ·o I would like to hear the minister elaborate on some of the other companies on the list that he provided the House with a couple of days age. {I would like to find out what these guarantees were given for.:tn the case · of the . Bay St. George Seafoods Limited, a $150,000 guarantee?

As far as I ca,n see 1 that is not the first guarantee they had, it is not the first loan they had from government either directly or indirectly through an agency of government, and I would lik .e. to know what the $150 I ooa . guarantee was for? Blue Ocean Products Limited, $25., .0_00. What 2064

April 6,1984 Tape No. 770 ah-3 MR.NEARY: was that guarantee for? And according to the principal and interest that . had to be paid by the Province/ not one cent of that was paid back. These two especially. we k~ow Ocean Harvesters is for the dragger, Fishery Products, we do not know what that if for, probably operating capital . to keep them afloat. The Bay St. George Seafoods Limited and the Newfoundland Food Proces sors Limited $150,000_, could the hon. gentleman tell us what these three amounts , ··these three guarantees were for? 2065

April 6, 1984 Tape No. 771 SD - 1 MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : The hon. member for St. John's North. MR. CARTER: Mr. Chairman, before getting more detailed answers from the minister I think it would be nice to return to a more general discussion and I would like to do that now. But before doing tha~,I would like to deal with a matter that was brought to the attention of the· House by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary). I certainly take full responsibility for anything I may say even though I may say it in an unguarded moment when I am out of sorts and angry.

On that bus·iness of the Supreme Court I did say, in a moment of anger, that the six remaining Justices of .the Supreme Court were nothing but Liberal hacks. And I would like to apologize for that because I ought not to have said it. I said it in a moment of blind rage, and anger is· a wretched counsellor. · The six J"ustices who make up the pres~nt Supreme Court of Canada cannot be called LiBeral hacks 1 even if one believes that in the light of their decision to give away our resources.

Neither the Supreme Court of Canada nor th.e Supreme Court of Newfoundland·can be called 'into -question, as the Leader of the Oppos·.ition did earlier this week, Our system of government cannot work .if thos~ who have no right of direct reply can be personally abused, The Justices of the Supreme Court may all have been Liberal appointments but that is an accident of history, Their personal integrity cannot. be called into question. s·o that perhaps disposed of that, Mr. Chairman, MR. NEARY; MR. CARTER: No,it does not. Th.e Chair will be the judge of that. By the way, while I am speaking with the han ..

Leader of the Oppos ·i tion I would like to inform him that I do know the reason he did not get that ride back on the plane - the trash bins were all full. There was not room for any more trash. on the plane, 2066

·---·-----· April 6, 19.84 Tape No. 771 SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: I noticed you were in there that is why you could not get anybody else on. They had to stuff you in there. SD - 2 MR. CARTER: Now to get serious, Mr. Chairman. I' have in my· pocket here a one cent coin t3.ted 1865. It is a Newfoundland coin. It was the first Newfoundland coin that was issued. There were 240,000 of them issued and this was issued· in 1865. AN HON • MEMBER: MR. CARTER: Joey had some of them I suppose. Probably.

Now,the fact that a country issues its own coinage does not by itself argue, it is not an argument ,that the country was independent. MR. BARRY: Now it is debasing it1r MR. CARTER: Well, the member for Mount Scio (Joir. Barryl says it is debasing its own coinage. I doubt that We did produce, r think1 in three or four separate issues· of gold coins, two dollar pieces, and, of course, even after Commission of Government we continued to mint our own money, or rather we had it minted r think th.e Canadian Mint did the minting for us·, but there are in existence SDme 19.46 five cent pieces.

They are quite rare, quite valuable~ gnfortunately,I do not have any. I have seen them. They are a matter of record. So even after our so-called responsible govenment was given up during Commission of Gove.:11mnent., we s•ti:ll continued to mint or have mi·nted our own coinage. That is-one fact • .Nlother fact is that we did operate our own customs-and immigration, I am old enough. to. have travelled be.tween Newfoundland and Canada before we were. part of Canada,and I had to have either a passport or a tremendous amount of documentation in order to get through customs· gorng both ways.

We did negotiate treaties, I think the members who are more learned than myself can quote the 2067

~ ...... .. --"· .. """- ......... '--~. ~ -·- - April 6, 1984 Tape No. 771 SD - 3 MR. CARTER: times and the dates and the facts and figures. we did attend Dominion co.nferences. Now, Mr. Chairman, the C01!1It1ittee hearings are being heard down in the Colonial Bttilding and the Colonial Building has some pictures on the walls and even more in the archives of Dominion conferences that were attended by the the .n Prime Ministers of Newfoundland, their photogFaphs are included. So again by itself it is perhaps not conclusive,but it is certainly indicative that we were a 90vereign independent country. But th .e most persuasive argument that one can advance is the fact 2068

April 6, 1984, Tape 772, Page l -- apb MR. CARTER: that in 1914 not only did we raise our own regiment, again perhaps not conclusive, but what was conclusive was the fact that we declared war. Now, a dependent state as far as I know, and I will let the lawyers in this House on either side answer it in more detail, cannot declare war. The independent state, the Dominion of Newfoundland in 1914 declared war on the state of Germany. This is a matter of historical record, there are photographs of the proclamation being read, and I am sure the actual proclamation still exists .

Now, if we .were an independent dominion prior to Confederation, then surely we went into Confederation with all our rights and privileges unimpaired. And I would add further, and again I am not a constitutional expert, but the Canada that we entered was not as independent as the Dominion of Newfoundland. The Canada that we entered, Mr. Chairman, had to rely upon the statute of Westminster and BNA Act of 1867 in order to effect any changes. In fact, this was not rectified until the Queen signed over the rights of the British Parliament, I think in 1981 or 1982.

So the fact that you had was that an .,extremely independent and sovereign Dominion of Newfoundland, although with its form of government somewhat reduced, went into partnership or became a province of a lesser Dominion of Canada. Now, if this does not make our claim to our offshore ownership absolutely air ­ tight I do not know what does. I am surprised and disappointed, like a lot of people, that the Supreme Court of Canada decided to take a narrow interpretat ion. 2069

April 6, 1984, Tape 772, Page 2 -- apb MR. CARTER: I think they were mistaken, I think they were wrong. It is not unparliamentary for me to say that, it is not inappropriate for me to say that. I think they were wrong, I think they were misinformed, I think they took too narrow a position, and it is all very, very sad. Now, all we will likely get unless we can affect a change is a few pipe yards and .perhaps a few head offices, nothing more.

We will get the slight difference in equalization payments, but anything we get in the form of oil royalties will only be offset against our equalization payments and it would be a long, long time before we get any net gain. I think it is too bad and I think it is shameful and frightenful for the Opposition over there to go along with such a rape of our resources, such legalized piracy. I think it is scandalous and they ought to hang their heads in shame. I have that thirty pieces of silver waiting for the hon. the Leader of the OppositionUMr.

Neary) which he may claim at any time, and I will even add another thirty out of my own resources. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. NEARY: MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward} : Opposition. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! Mr • Chairman. The hon. the Leader of the Mr. Chairman, for the reason I mentioned this morning, because the hon. gentleman has no credibility left at all, if he ever indeed had any credibility, we on this side just choose to ignore what the hon. gentleman has to say. MR. TULK: Such rubbish and filth. MR. NEARY: Because it is nothing but rubbish and filth and dirt, Tory dirt.

As I indicated to the House on a number of occasions 2070

April 6, 1984 Tape 773 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: there are three Anti- Confederates, three Anti-Canadians over there, three Separatists over there,the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), the Minister .of Energy (Mr. Marshall) and the hon. gentleman, three Separatists in Newfoundland. No doubt if Mr. Devine had approached these gentlemen he would have gotten all of the funding that he wanted for his Separatist. Party, Mr. Speaker. l1R. TULK: And probably did. MR. NEARY: And probably did as my hon. colleague says, probably did -benefit from contributions from the hon. gentlemen. So 1 therefore, Mr.

Chairman, we have no intention ' commenting on these rotten , filthy, low statements that are made by hon. gentlerne~ there opposite. We intend to deal with the issue. Now,what are the issues in Newfoundland? Now, Mr.

Chairman, in order to reduce a very seri~us deficit in current account for three years in a row row, and I do not have to point out the seriousness of that to hon. gentlemen, because where you have a deficit in current account like we have had in this Province "three years in a:row 1 then that means that the administration there opposite cannot pay their bills, they cannot pay their ordinary every day housekeeping costs. They cannot pay them. And'if we were not a Province of Canada today we would be bankrupt, Mr. Chairman.

But in order to reduce these deficits and try to help the government to balance the budget what is needed, Mr. Chairman, is a change of direction, a change of policy. For four years now that administration has been on a disaster course and as a result of their disaster course they have brought Newfoundland and Labrador, brought the Province 2071

April 6, 1984 Tape 773 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: to the brink of financial ruin. It would not take very much now to push us here in this Province into financial and economic oblivion, push us over the edge, Mr. Chairman. But in order to correct that, what we have been saying in this session of the House so far is that the administration have to change their course. You know,if a captain sees his s~ip headed for the rocks what does he do ? ' MR. CARTER: He calls on you. MR. NEARY: What does he do, Mr. Chairman?

The captain is on the bridge, the wheel's man is there,and he is loo~ing out and he can see his ship headed for the rocks does he issue instructions £o ··the wheel's man to change course or does he let her go for the rocks? Well, Mr. Chairman, that is what is happening to this administration. Sometimes the captain is on the bridge and sometimes he is not.

Most of the time he is out of his office, out of Confederation Building ,out of the House of Assembly, will use any excuse to get out of his office, will accept an invitation in any part of Newfoundland to speak or to have his picture taken or to shake hands with this group or that group, anything to get out of his office , to get away from thinking about the serious unemployment problems in this Province, anything! That is why I said yesterday, Mr.

Chairman, that not only is the han. gentleman the greediest negotiator that we have ever seen in our whole history,but is also, I would say, rapidly gaining the reputation of the laziest Premier in our history. Having your picture taken,you do not exert yourself having your picuture taken,or having some­ body down in your office write a speech for you and you go out 2072

April 6, 1984 Tape 773 PK - 3 MR. NEARY: and deliver it . There is not very much work in that . You do not require six or sev .en holidays a year in the sunshine to recoup from that kind of exertion. MR. CARTER: MR. NEARY: Tell us how hard Joey worked. Joey worked eighteen hours a day and worked pretty hard and had an open-door policy. When you carne to see Joey you could get into his office. That is more than you can say about the Premier and the ministers there opposite.You cannot get to see them. They run a closed-door policy.

They have carpet outside of their door that will last forever because nobody ever uses it. But, Mr. Chairman, the problems confronting the Newfoundland people are horrendous; record unernployrnent,especially amongst young people. We have now the expanded high school system, we , are building a new College of Fisheries, we have the College of Trades and Technology, the sixteen vocational schools, the university. We are training youhg people, we are saying to them stay in school and get yourself a good education if you want to get a job today.

And one of the most heartbreaking experiences that members of this House are having are letters from young people anywhere from eighteen to twenty-five, twenty-six, twenty-seven years of age saying, 2073

April 6, 1984 Tape No. 774 MJ - 1 MR. NEARY: I did what you told me, I got my certificates and I got my training and I got my sJdlls and I am qualified,so where are the jobs? Almost 50 per cent of the unemployed in this Province are between thE? age_s of sixteen and twenty-five. MR. REID: Sure the LIP programmes are not ble to hire them. MR. NEARY: I. beq your pardon? } -· HR. REID: The LIP programmes will not hire them, a federal programme. MR. NEARY: Mr.-~~, the han. gentleman has not got enough government contracts to hire them yet.

And if the han. gentleman had the government contracts he would only hire PCs anyway, Mr.~~~. And you have not got a chance. The hen. gentleman should go out and pedal his contracts, look after his little PC buddi~s over there. Mr. Chairman, and the tragic part of it is that in order to get a - l1R. REID: (Inaudible) MR. CHAIFffiAN (Aylward) : Order, please! HR. REID: The federal government \vill not hire them. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, this morning Your Honour ruled that we have a right to be heard in silence. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR.

NEARY: The tragic part of it is this, that young people cannot get jobs with the government. It is not what you know, it is who you knpw if you want to get a job. Mr. Chairman, if you want to get a job as Chief Finance Agent down at the Workers' Compensation Board you have to be the brother of the Premier. That is what you have to be. The han. gentleman should hang his head in shame, Mr. Chairman. It is not what you know,it is who you know on that side of the House that will get you a job. That is 2074

April 6, 1984 MR. NEARY: DR. COLLINS: MR. CHAIID1AN (A ylward) : Minister of Finance. Tape No. 774 MJ - 2 solving the unemployment problem. A point of order, Mr. Chairman. A point of order the hon. the DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, the hon. 'the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) is up to his old tricks now. He is making innuendo and so on and so forth, he 1s suggesting that there has been a position filled at the Workers' Compensation Board and that was improper. Now, Mr.

Chairman, everyone in this House knows 1 and I think everyone in the Province knows that when this administration came in,and when the previous administration was here,they very strongly supported the Public Service • .commissi ·:m whic..l-t is a body that does the hiring, does the interviewing and makes the recommendations as to the filling of positions other than temporary positions.

So what the hon. the Leader of the Opposition is doing there now is making an innuendo which has got absolutely no foundation, not even a suspicion of a foundation j_n f'nct, ;:~nn . what he is doing is he is harping back to what used to happen in the Smallwood administration, this is where there was no Public Service Commission and things happened just as the Leader of the Opposition said. MR. NEARY: To that point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAI~T: To that point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR.NEARY: Mr. Chairman, let me see if I correctly understand what the hon. gentleman is saying.

Is he saying that the Premier's brother is not ensconced in a high position at the Workers' Compensation Board? Is that what he is saying? DR . COLLINS: No. 2075

April 6, 1984 Tape No. 774 ~1J - 3 !II..R. NEARY: He is not saying that? DR. COLLINS: No. MR. NEARY: No,because he cannot say it. He cannot deny it, Mr. Chairman. And they can set up all phoney consulting firms they like to look at these positions, but the fact of the matter is, ~- Chairman, that nobody else had a chance to get a crack at that very high position, high paying position, on the Workers' Compensation Board. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please! Order, please! To that point of order I rule there is a difference of opinion between two hon. members. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. ' MR.

NEARY: Mr. Chairman, so what I am saying is this, that young people who are qualified do not have a chance of getting on the payroll of the government. MR. CHAIRMAN : Order, pleasel The han. the member's time has elapsed. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS : Mr. Chairman, I think that was vintage Leader of the Opposition.

You know, innuendo, speaking of people '..rho are not in this House, who have no opportunity to defend themselves, speaking of people who have a record of high performance in the public service, who have had years in the public service, who have gone through the normal processes in terms of their promotion activities and so on and so forth, ·And the Leader of the · Opposition (~. Neary) 2076

April 6, 1984 Tape 775 EC - 1 DR. COLLINS' does not come out and make an accusation~ I think the han. members of the Committee will note that. There is no accusation, there ~ are no facts laid out, it is all innuendo: 'Did this happen?' 'What do you think of that?' 'How about So-and-So?', all innuendo. Mr. Chairman, I am ~at going to dwell on it, it is so foolish! But the other innuendo I would bring out is this business about travelling on government aircraft. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) is suggesting there is something improper there.

You will notice again, he did not come out and specify, it is all suggestion that there is something improper, no facts, no details, no evidence of any impropriety, all just suggestion, questions, innuendo. Now, Mr. Chairman, one of the servants of this House whose job it is to look into things where there might be impropriety, of course, is the Auditor General. The Auditor General lauded the Department of Transportation in his last report. There was no evidence to fit in with what the hon. the Leader of the Opposition said.

He aave the Department of Transportation, to all intents and purnoses, a clean bill o£ health. It is rather ironic, Mr. Chairman, especially around this time when the Leader of the Opposition brings up this innuendo about the improper use of government aircraft. It is very ironic that this should come up now, when I heard the other day about certain federal Liberal ministers who said, 'Sure, I am politicking. I am making no bones about it and I am going to do it in barefaced fashion. ' You know, 'I have 2077

:~ .. : April 6, 1984 Tape 775 EC - 2 DR. COLLINS: the privileges that are given to me for government purposes, obviously. Sure, I am going to fly to Halifax to a political meeting and I am going to do it in barefaced fashion.' You know, it is very ironic that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary), who supports these ge~tlemen who barefacedly come out and make statements like that, who admit it in public and seem to do it proudly - you know, that the Canadian people are ripe for the plucking - 'This is my right, I will pluck the Canadian taxpayer just because I have the opportunity to do so.' And it is very ironic that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition should bring this in here where he shows no evidence and he does not make any comment whether his evidence ·is applicable what is going on with regard to the people that he himself supports. MR. NEARY: On a point of order, ~~. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please! On a point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, it is probably better late than never, but I believe one of the rules of this House is that you are not allowed to have objects displayed on your desk, not like in school. The yellow flowers which are typical of the colour of the hon. gentlemen there opposite are putting the hon. the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) asleep. They are putting him asleep, Mr. Chairman. SDr1E HON. MEJ'.tBERS : Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Order, please!

The point of order raised by the hon. the Leader of the Oppositon is correct. Members are not permitted to display objects on their desks within the House. 2078

April 6, 1984 Tap e 715 EC - .3 MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : The hon . the memb er for St. John's North (Mr . Carter) and the hon . the member for Mount Scio (Mr . Barry) · who is not here right now - I would ask one of the Pages to remove the exhibits from the desks. The hon .. the Minist,.r of Finance. DR. COLLINS : Mr. Chairman, again it is rather ironic that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition himself (Mr . Neary) complained the other day that he was out on the West Coast of the Province and he tried to weasel his way on to an aircraft and he claims he was refused .

Now, there is even doubt about that, whether he was refused or not, but it is ironic that he was actually complaining thf!.t he could not do what he is accusing certain ministers of doing . If they do it, it is impropriet