March 30, 1978 ALBERTA HANSARD 383 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA Title: Thursday, March 30, 1978 2:30 p.m. [The House met at 2:30 p.m.] PRAYERS [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] head: INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 230

An Act to Amend The Unfair Trade Practices Act MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to introduce a bill, being

An Act to Amend The Unfair Trade Prac­ tices Act.

This bill will make it an offence for a manufacturer to dilute or reduce the quality of a name product and sell it under the original name; to sell or rent the components of a unit separately at a combined price exceeding the price at which the unit components were previously sold as a set; and to sell or rent two or more services separately that previous­ ly were sold or rented together at a single price, at two separate prices which when added together exceed the original price of the combined services. [Leave granted; Bill 230 read a first time] head: TABLING RETURNS AND REPORTS MR. DOWLING: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to table a response to Motion for a Return No. 116, and to file with the Legislature Library two copies of the 1976 Travel Alberta survey. A copy will be made available to each member. head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS MR. BOGLE: Mr. Speaker, it's a privilege and a pleas­ ure to introduce to you, and to the members of this Assembly, two very special guests in your gallery. They are Greg and Veronica Thomas. Greg is a member of the Milk River town council.

Before hav­ ing the pleasure of serving with him on that body, our association goes back farther when we began teach­ ing in the Erle Rivers high school in Milk River in the spring of 1969. His wife Veronica was a student in grade 11 at that time, and I'll say no more about that. Would Greg and Veronica please stand and receive the welcome of this Assembly. MISS HUNLEY: Mr. Speaker, I wish to introduce to you, and through you to the members of the Assem­ bly, members in the public gallery who are here to attend the 7th Session of the Alberta Girls' Parlia­ ment.

The Alberta Girls' Parliament is sponsored by the Girl Guides Association of Canada. Mrs. Gail Lemieux, the national program adviser from Toronto, and the leader Mrs. Atkinson from Red Deer, are with the 62 girls who will be taking

part in the Parliament. I would ask that they stand and receive the welcome of the Assembly. MR. COOKSON: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to introduce my boys now. It's a pleasure to introduce to you, and to the members of the Assembly, the 1st Lacombe Scout Troop. I think it's their first opportunity to visit the Legislature. They're in the members gallery to wit­ ness the proceedings of the Assembly with their instructor Dr. Al Sather. I'd like to have them rise and receive the welcome of the Assembly. MR. CLARK: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to introduce to you, and through you to members of the Assembly, Mayor Myron Thompson and several councillors from the town of Sundre, Councillor Syd Vollmin from the county of Mountain View, and representatives of the Sundre Chamber of Commerce, who are in the public gallery. I would ask them to rise, and ask members of the Assembly to recognize them in the usual fashion. MR. JAMISON: Mr.

Speaker, it's my pleasure today to introduce to you, and through you to the members of the Assembly, 35 young men and women belonging to the 524 Squadron Royal Canadian Air Cadets in the Sturgeon area, which encompasses the towns of Redwater and Gibbons and the village of Bon Accord. They are accompanied today by their leader Lieu­ tenant Ed Mortimer, and one of the parents Mrs. Saunders. They're seated in the members gallery, and I'd ask that they stand and receive the welcome of the Assembly. head: MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Department of Housing and Public Works MR. YURKO: Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to announce today the details of the home adaptation program which provides for grants of up to $1,000 to home­ owners who are wheelchair users or who have a member of their household using a wheelchair, which program was first announced by the Provincial Treasurer when he brought down the budget. The home adaptation program, which commences on April 1, 1978, is really the third phase of the highly successful home improvement program initial­ ly applied to senior citizens' housing.

This program will meet the special home adaptation needs of per­ sons who normally use wheelchairs in their daily routine, whether or not they are senior citizens. It is estimated that between 2,000 and 3,000 whee­ lchair users will be eligible for this program in 1978, and the Department of Housing and Public Works has budgeted some $2.25 million for the program during the year 1978-79. Funds are granted for permanent modification to a home associated with improving wheelchair access to the home as well as facilitating wheelchair move­ ments within the home.

Eligible adaptation includes ramps, lifts, widened doorways, electrical and plumb­ ing alterations, and the installation of patio-type doors. Such other alterations or repairs as increase the liveability of the home for the wheelchair user are acceptable, subject to approval by Alberta Housing

384 ALBERTA HANSARD March 30, 1978 and Public Works. This program applies to home-owners whose an­ nual adjusted family income does not exceed $19,500 and who plan to carry out eligible adaptations. Credit for approved applications will be established with the Department of Housing and Public Works and will be available for a period of three years. Upon presenta­ tion of bills and verification of completed work, the applicant will receive payment to a maximum of $1,000.

The administration of the program will not require any additional manpower, as it will be handled by the senior citizen home improvement program staff. Ap­ plication forms for the program may be obtained from the home adaptation program office, Alberta Housing and Public Works, Box 2453, Edmonton, Alberta, tel­ ephone 427-5760. Information concerning the program is available from local offices of the Department of Housing and Public Works, the Alberta Housing Corporation, the Alberta Home Mortgage Corporation, and local handi­ capped associations or groups.

The program will be extensively advertised at intervals in local daily and weekly newspapers, as well as the TV guide. I am distributing today a brochure on the program to each Member of the Legislative Assembly, as well as a sample of the application form itself. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: Would hon. members agree to revert to Reading and Receiving Petitions? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. head: READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to have the following petitions read and received: of the Alberta Wheat Pool for

an act to amend The Alberta Wheat Pool Act, 1970; of the Society of Industrial Account­ ants of Alberta to amend the private act known as

An Act to Incorporate the Society of Industrial Account­ ants of Alberta; of Paul Gerald Otke, George Rode, Luther Edgar Schroeder, Vernon Arthur Raaflaub, and Robert Glen Guebert for

an act for the incorporation of Concordia College; of the Sisters of Charity of the Immaculate Conception for

an act of incorporating an association of religious women as a body corporate and politic in deed in the name of St. Joseph's Hospital, Radway; of the Royal Trust Company for

an act to amend the Royal Trust Corporation of Canada Act for the Royal Trust Company Act; of Edward G. Robinson, R. W. Nickerson, W. A. Cochrane, J. F. Fendall, and R. W. Chapman for

an act to incorporate the First Western Trust Company. head: ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Constitutional Discussions MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct the first question to the Premier. The question flows from the recently completed conference at Banff put on by the Canada West group, and remarks the Premier made in which, I think it's fair to say, he rejected the proposition of special status for any particular prov­ ince — a position I would agree with enthusiastically.

In future meetings with the Prime Minister, will the government of Alberta propose that the unique interests of the various provinces might best be rec­ ognized by an amendment to the BNA Act to allow delegation of powers from one level of government to another? That concept really was initially suggested in the Fulton/Favreau formula of the 1963 attempt. So my question to the Premier really is: is the government of Alberta now prepared to recommend this as a means by which provinces such as Alberta can have their unique interests looked after as far as any future changes to the BNA Act? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr.

Speaker, with regard to that important matter, the Minister of Federal and Inter­ governmental Affairs and I, together with his staff, have been working on a number of alternatives. I could respond directly to the hon. Leader of the Opposition and say that that approach, which is within the Fulton/Favreau formula and to some extent was referred to in my remarks last fall, is definitely one of the serious options or alternatives that we would consider to meeting the dilemma that's raised implicit in the hon. leader's question. MR. CLARK: Mr.

Speaker, a follow-up question to the Premier, again from the concerns expressed at the Canada West Conference, really more the concern of the role of the House of Commons, but to some degree now of legislative assemblies with the forma­ lization of the first ministers' meetings in the fall. Is the government of Alberta prepared to agree to a proposal where the Legislative Assembly would have an opportunity to discuss the general proposition the government of Alberta would take to the first minis­ ters' conference in the fall? That could likely be done in the fall session.

I propose that it be done by the government rather than the opposition, because in fact that would limit the debate to one hour. MR. LOUGHEED: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I believe there is merit in that. One of the reasons I suggested at the first ministers' meeting that the annual first minis­ ters' meeting be held later in the fall — that is, in the latter part of November or early December — is that it would permit debate and discussion here in the Legis­ lative Assembly in our fall session as to matters leading up to those first ministers' meetings.

I've also pressed the Prime Minister and the other first ministers to try to have at least a tentative agenda established in advance of fall session, so that it could be a matter discussed and debated here. Because I think it's quite appropriate that these mat­ ters be discussed and debated, to the extent it's prac­ tical to do so, within the Legislative Assembly prior to a first ministers' meeting, particularly because it now appears the first ministers' meetings are going to become a regular institution.

I would put only one word of caution, and I'm sure the hon. leader would appreciate this, since we have had debate in the past. The discussion and debate and the nature of our approaches would not of course lend themselves to the specific nature; for example,

March 30, 1978 ALBERTA HANSARD 385 on an oil pricing agreement, as to the exact target at which we might be aiming in a negotiation. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I think we could let them off the hook on that question. One further supplementary to the Premier. What time line is the government now looking at with regard to when we might expect the next part of the proposition once it's developed its options? I ask that in light of the fact that it's my understanding the Prime Minister is now suggesting a constitutional conference sometime in September. MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, it's certainly a valid question.

But I really find that in a situation like this it is somewhat disturbing, and I don't mean in terms of that question but the general pressure that is on provincial governments to constantly come up with our views with regard to this matter when we haven't even heard from the Prime Minister yet. Also we haven't yet heard from the government of Quebec what is going to be contained in their referendum, what it is they really wish to have discussed. We have had lengthy meetings. The letter of Octo­ ber 14, 1976, by the 10 provinces is on the record in this Legislative Assembly.

It sets forth some areas in which there was unanimous agreement by the prov­ ince, and it sets forth quite a few additional areas. For the moment, together with the supplementary statements I made yesterday, I think the provincial government position has been fairly well expressed by the combination of the letter of October 14, 1976, our rebuttal to the reply to that letter by the Prime Minister, which I believe occurred in February 1977, the remarks I made in the Legislature last fall, and the remarks I made in Banff yesterday.

As far as the timetable is concerned, which is the other part of hon. leader's question, I would have to say there are two variables with regard to the Sep­ tember conference. One of them would be a federal election, with which I have no control as to its timing and probably little with regard to its outcome. A second one of course is the very important matter of the preparation that may go into play for a September conference.

But if there is a conference in Septem­ ber, we'll try to come up with an approach that may expand and elaborate upon the extensive positions we have taken to date, provided we have some moves by the federal parties, the federal government, and the Quebec government to elaborate more extensive­ ly than they have to this date on what they think should be considered in the area of constitutional change. DR. PAPROSKI: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques­ tion to the hon. Premier.

Not agreeing with special status for any one province, I wonder if the Premier would indicate to the House whether he agrees with the policy of special status for each and all provinces, recognizing there are important provincial differences. MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, I think the emphasis in that question on each and every province would give me some difficulty. I think what we're trying to say, within the spirit of Canadian Confederation, is that it would not be acceptable, I believe, to the vast majori­ ty of Canadians, particularly in western Canada, to have a special status for only one province.

But the distinctive nature of the provinces in Canada surely provides us with quite a bit of flexibility and accom­ modation to work out some response to the special natures and needs of a number of the provinces. MR. R. SPEAKER: A supplementary to the Premier. From the news broadcast of the Premier's speech in Banff, I noted some very interesting concepts and was wondering if the Premier would have available for the Assembly a copy of that speech so we could review the matter. MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, I'd be happy to do that.

I should respond at least to one specific that should be placed here in the Legislature by way of response to the fact that the Legislature was sitting when I made that address yesterday. The proposal I made was that in terms of regional input there be at least 40 per cent provincial appointments to major regula­ tory agencies of the federal government, and in par­ ticular three that affect Alberta: The Canadian Wheat Board, the National Energy Board, and the Canadian Transport Commission. Bail Procedures MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct the second question to the Attorney General.

It concerns the granting of bail, on which the Attorney General has received a considerable representation — the result of a case where a man was charged with rape and attempted rape, also gross indecency and assault causing bodily harm, on two charges. This individual was released on bail of less than $2,000. Having regard for the fact that the bail area is federal legisla­ tion, what action has the Attorney General taken since receiving that representation? MR. FOSTER: Mr.

Speaker, I have received a number of demonstrations of concern with respect to bail, and I've tried to make it clear to those who have contacted me that we're dealing with federal legislation and decisions by the judiciary. Sometimes people are led to believe that the decision to grant, or otherwise, a matter of bail is made by someone other than a judge or justice of the peace, and it is a federal piece of legislation.

So I consider the concerns that come to me to be proper, and I will ensure that the concerns are passed on to the Minister of Justice, and of course that the criminal justice division in my de­ partment, who are the Crown prosecutors, are aware of the public comment and concern for bail granting, particularly in such difficult areas as alleged rape and the like. MR.

CLARK: Has the Attorney General already passed instructions on to the Crown prosecutors with regard to the kind of representation he has received, hopeful­ ly encouraging the Crown prosecutors to do all they can to get bail a great deal higher in a situation like this? MR. FOSTER: Mr. Speaker, I have not met with the senior Crown agents since this matter surfaced and since I have been receiving correspondence. As a matter of fact, at the moment all my senior agents are in Banff at a western Canada Crown counsel confer­

386 ALBERTA HANSARD March 30, 1978 ence which Alberta has organized, and I haven't had the opportunity of discussing it with them. It has been raised in my office. As I've said, I will see that senior Crown counsel are apprized of the concern. Moreover, I will see that the matter is raised with the Minister of Justice. Frankly, I was intending to send him copies of some of the petitions I've got, principal­ ly from the city of Calgary. I can also say to the House, Mr. Speaker, the provincial attorneys general will be meeting in Ed­ monton towards the end of June.

It would certainly be an appropriate time to raise the subject with them to discover if similar concerns exist there, because obviously we have some voice, although small, in proposed amendments to the criminal law and to laws relating to bail and other matters. Treaty Indians — Services DR. WALKER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the hon. Minister responsible for Native Affairs. Would the minister please advise us what the reaction was of Indian chiefs to a request for a meeting with the minister concerning services to the native people? MR. BOGLE: Mr.

Speaker, for the past six or seven years treaty Indians in this province, primarily through their band councils and the chiefs, have been making increasing requests to the provincial govern­ ment for provincial services. That has presented to the Indians somewhat of a dilemma in that there is a very special relationship between treaty Indians and the federal government. While wanting to access provincial services, there was a desire not to erode in any way those special treaty arrangements they have with the federal government.

I might add that through the period of seven years this government has insisted that we will not assist in any way in the erosion of those special arrangements between the federal government and the treaty Indians. About a year and a half ago, Mr. Speaker, I made a commitment to the Indian leadership in this province that we as a provincial government would examine fully the question of extension of services to the bands. That review has taken place and has been ongoing. There has been input from the native peo­ ple in many ways.

I think of the cabinet tours, the briefs which have been presented to us during those tours, the band briefs which have been made through their MLAs and me, then directed to the departments responsible and through the departments. Therefore the information has been made available wherever possible, Mr. Speaker. I think the question of a meeting relates to a newspaper

article the hon. member may have read. It's been our desire as a government, Mr. Speaker, to be as open and frank as possible with our Indian people. What was proposed was that on a given day I would make the province's position paper available to the 42 chiefs of this province, a position that would be the umbrella under which any future services the province provides to treaty Indians would be given. That offer was made through the president of the Indian Association. I'm somewhat puzzled, Mr.

Speaker, by the attitude of certain Indian leaders who now balk at that and suggest that we may be eroding their special ar­ rangement with Ottawa. That is not our attempt. We will not do it. But I want to assure all members of this Assembly that this province will bring down a firm policy position, and that any future services to be extended will be done under the guise of that policy. MR. SHABEN: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques­ tion to the minister.

Could the minister advise the members of the Assembly if programs now available to Albertans are presently being made available to treaty Indians within the province? MR. BOGLE: Mr.

Speaker, a number of programs have been made available to treaty Indians and Indian reserves in the province — the $1,000 senior citizen home improvement grant from the Department of Housing and Public Works; the rural gas program from the Department of Utilities and Telephones; pro­ grams like the major cultural/recreation facility pro­ gram, which comes jointly through the departments of Recreation, Parks and Wildlife and of Culture; the agriculture society grants, which are made available to societies all over the province; as well as the library grants program from the Department of Cul­ ture.

So we have attempted in the past to provide services, and in each and every case the underlying theme is that these in no way should undermine the special arrangements between the federal govern­ ment and the bands. They are complementary pro­ grams which are offered to treaty Indians like all other Albertans. MR. SHABEN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to ask another supplementary question. Is the minister aware of any recent reduction in support to treaty Indians by the federal government? MR. BOGLE: Well, Mr. Speaker, if I may go back for just a moment.

In 1968 the federal government brought out a white paper which dealt with the whole area of treaty rights and services provided to treaty Indians. This is something that has caused a tremen­ dous amount of uneasiness on the part of the Indian leadership, and rightfully so. They are concerned about their position and what might happen to it if that white paper should be implemented. As I've indicated, Mr.

Speaker, we've taken a strong position: that those treaties were signed between the Queen's representatives, being the federal govern­ ment, and the chiefs of the bands in this province, and the conditions of those treaties are the responsi­ bility and the obligation of the federal government. It disturbs us greatly, Mr. Speaker, when programs and services to treaty Indians in this province are cut back. It appears at the present time that there will be a cutback in services to Indians — very, very critical services like the school lunch program which oper­ ates on reserves.

We have a very successful program which operates off reserves. The federal government operates one through the reserves — modelled after ours, I might mention. The alcohol counselling and rehabilitation program may be cut back, as well as roads, sewer and water programs on reserves, and a vocational training program. That gives us a great deal of concern, because there may be a feeling in certain minds in other parts of this nation that if services are withdrawn by the federal government, the province will automatically move in. That's the very thing we are determined not

March 30, 1978 ALBERTA HANSARD 387 to do, because that kind of thing would erode those special rights treaty Indians have with Ottawa. MR. R. SPEAKER: A supplementary to the minister. Is the minister considering some type of arrangement between the federal government and the provincial government in the delivery of services relative to young offenders, or social services as such? MR. BOGLE: I think a key factor, Mr. Speaker, in this very important area is that there be no special ar­ rangements between the federal and provincial gov­ ernments behind the backs of treaty Indian people.

That's why we've attempted to carry on our discus­ sions in the open and in consultation with the Indian people. So any kind of services we'd be looking at would be with full consultation of the bands. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary for clarification of the minister's answer. Is the minister indicating that the federal government would reim­ burse the province totally for any services delivered? Is that what he's saying? MR. BOGLE: Mr. Speaker, I'm not saying that at all. I indicated earlier that we will make our policy known. That will come in due course.

Therefore I would rather not comment on any policy matters today. That will come and will be done in this Assembly. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the minister. I was applying that concept only to social services and youth offenders, not to the other areas referred to. MR. BOGLE: As I previously stated, Mr. Speaker, I'd rather deal with that subject in the context of the policy. At that time the Minister of Social Services and Community Health may wish to respond. MISS HUNLEY: Mr. Speaker, perhaps I could supple­ ment the answer given by my colleague.

Two con­ tracts are now in place which have been negotiated at the request of the Indian bands, and services are provided through the Department of Social Services and Community Health. But that request initiated from the bands and was subsequently negotiated with their approval. We're quite enthusiastic about the way they are presently working on the Indian reserves. But I would like to stress that that initiation came from the Indian peoples themselves, which is the policy in which we strongly believe. DR. WALKER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Are the ministers seriously suggesting that the provincial government is now taking over some of the federal government's responsibilities for native affairs? MR. BOGLE: Not responsibility, Mr. Speaker. What we are talking about is trying to respond to the requests of the Indian people in this province who want access to provincial services. But that is firmly a federal responsibility, and we will not move from that position. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, if I could put a supple­ mentary question to the hon. minister before asking another question.

With respect to the cutback in services supplied by the federal government to treaty Indians in the province, has there been any formal protest or formal indication of strong disagreement by the province as a consequence of these cutbacks? MR. BOGLE: Mr. Speaker, in numerous meetings with my federal counterpart I have made the very point that there appears to be an implementation of the white paper of 1968, possibly not in a policy way but certainly in a practical way by the withdrawal of certain services that have been provided in the past to treaty Indians.

It's a concern to the Indians; it's a concern to this government. Resource Royalties MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct my ques­ tion, if I may, to the hon. Premier. It flows from the Premier's comments of yesterday with respect to the Supreme Court Cigol decision showing the need for — I believe I have the quote correct — "provincial access to indirect taxation". Is the Premier in a posi­ tion to advise the Assembly whether the government of Alberta has any concern about existing royalty or petroleum marketing legislation as a consequence of the Cigol decision? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr.

Speaker, I believe the Minister of Energy and Natural Resources has answered that question — perhaps not in the Assembly, at least publicly. The answer is no.

Our desire with regard to indirect taxation is merely to recognize the changing nature of Confederation since its evolution, in terms of the practicality of fiscal policies and the need to have full flexibility by way of resource management, not with respect to a concern on our part — and incidentally because we tend to do this from time to time to support one of our neighbor­ ing provinces which, as a result of circumstances, got itself into a position of difficulty. Of course we want to assist them. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to either the hon.

Premier or the Minister of Energy and Natural Resources. I applaud this new co-operation. Mr. Speaker, to the hon. Premier: has the Premier personally reviewed the comments of Mr. Crawford, who I believe was the counsel for Cigol, who has indicated that in his judgment parts of the Alberta legislation may be unconstitutional as a consequence of the Cigol decision? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, I believe the Minister of Energy and Natural Resources is anxious to respond to that question. MR. GETTY: Mr.

Speaker, having reviewed the state­ ments made by the honorable legal counsel the Member for Spirit River-Fairview referred to, I'm sati­ sfied — subject to the odd opinion now and then received from lawyers — that Alberta's royalty system is based on very firm foundations. In that regard, I think we are presently benefiting from some very hard work from the previous Minister of Mines and Minerals and Attorney General in the province.

388 ALBERTA HANSARD March 30, 1978 MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the hon. Minister of Energy and Natural Resources, flowing from the odd representation of the odd lawy­ er. Has the government of Alberta sought constitu­ tional advice outside the normal lawyers of the de­ partment to assess the implications of the Cigol deci­ sion on the whole framework of petroleum marketing and royalty legislation in Alberta? MR. GETTY: Mr. Speaker, I'd refer that to the hon. Attorney General. MR. FOSTER: Mr.

Speaker, I'm very confident that my colleague the Minister of Energy and Natural Resources, in his remarks about odd opinions and odd lawyers, was referring only to the numbers, not to the quality of the judgment. With respect to the specific question about where and how we may get our advice on constitutional matters, I would advise the hon. member that we now have a constitutional

section which is quite well equipped in the Department of the Attorney General, on whom we rely for a good deal of advice. At the same time, we frequently take the benefit of gaining advice from the private sector, and on occasion from outside the province. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question then to the hon. Attorney General. Given the com­ ments of the hon.

Attorney General, is he in a posi­ tion to assure the House that the advice from legal counsel retained by the government, as well as the outside constitutional advice, fully supports the posi­ tion that Alberta's legislation is completely constitu­ tional and not subject to challenge? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. It would seem to me that the hon. member is trying to find out what advice the Crown is receiving. I would refer him to the citations that follow 171 of Beauchesne, where that's clearly not a matter for the question period. Lysol Sales MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the hon.

Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. In view of the information from Winnipeg that hard-core alcoholics are now drinking Lysol instead of the regular shoe polish, rubbing alcohol, and vanilla extract, is the department taking any steps to monitor the sale of Lysol in Alberta? MR. HARLE: We haven't so far, Mr. Speaker. Public Service Hiring Policy MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, my question to the Provincial Treasurer is with regard to hiring policy.

The matter was brought to my attention by a resident of Calgary who applied for a job in British Columbia and was notified by the government there that it would hire B.C. personnel first. Have we that type of policy in Alberta of hiring Albertans first, or are competitions open to all Canadians? MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, my memory is that we normally advertise only in Alberta if we anticipate there will be applicants from Alberta who have the qualifications to fill the job. If we don't think that will be the case, we apply across Canada, then of course consider all applicants. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary question to the Premier with regard to a matter such as this. Has any type of reciprocal or open-door agreement been discussed with other provinces dur­ ing the first ministers' discussions? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, my memory is failing me at the moment as to whether or not I've reported to the House on the question of the discussion held when the premiers met in Montreal on the request and the decision to place on the next agenda of the premiers' conference in Saskatchewan in August the question of the purchasing policies of the various provincial governments.

I can't recall whether I have responded to that matter within the Legislative As­ sembly this session. The matter being raised by the hon. Member for Little Bow would be part of that discussion. The concern we have is that we do not think such a policy on the purchasing side is good for the country. As the hon. Provincial Treasurer has expressed, I think there's a somewhat different connotation when you're involved in hiring people for the public service. Perhaps there should be some differentiation there. Credit Information DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, my question to the hon.

Attorney General has to do with credit information. I'd like to know if the Attorney General can confirm if there has been an extension of the deadline granted to credit granting firms in respect of the notice given by the Deputy Attorney General indicating changes in the method of supplying credit information to these organizations. MR. FOSTER: Mr. Speaker, meetings were held be­ tween representatives of the credit grantors or credit information community and our court services staff to try to resolve this matter. The short answer to your question is yes. The deadline has been extended to April 30.

We have received a proposal from the industry which suggested that we increase the fees from 15 cents to 30 cents per item. We have accept­ ed that on an interim basis. We feel that both parties will come to some mutually acceptable solution in the course of the next couple of weeks. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Can the minister indicate what counterproposals the organizations presented to the minister in their discussions? MR. FOSTER: Mr. Speaker, I'm going from memory. As I said earlier, I recall the reference to the 15 cents to 30 cents.

There was another feature of it which escapes my memory at the moment. I do know we were interested in having the industry consider join­ ing forces, as it were, and making a staff person available. We would be prepared to provide space, furniture, and the like in the court administration of­ fice in the courts in Edmonton and Calgary, and have a staff person paid by the industry actually do this work, then disseminate the information to the indus­

March 30, 1978 ALBERTA HANSARD 389 try. I know that's being discussed right now. That would certainly get around the legal difficulties we foresee. It would certainly go a long way to freeing our staff in both Edmonton and Calgary, and would guarantee the industry gets this information as quick­ ly as possible. In the longer term, we're looking at computer- assisted information systems which we may be able to lock into with the industry. So we're looking at both a short-term and a longer term discussion, Mr. Speaker.

I think it's clear, both from the industry's point of view and our point of view, that we're very anxious to ensure this sort of credit information is available. We think it's important to the commercial world and to every citizen in the province. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, supplementary question. In light of the fact that the information is needed rather quickly and accurately, can the Minister of Business Development and Tourism or the Minister of Con­ sumer and Corporate Affairs indicate to the Legisla­ ture which department has a monitoring process as far as bankruptcies in Alberta are concerned?

Is there a monitoring process? MR. HARLE: Well, Mr. Speaker, first of all bankruptcy is a federal obligation under the British North Ameri­ ca Act, and the federal Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs has extensive figures and monitor­ ing of matters relating to bankruptcy. There was some discussion of bankruptcy as far as the amend­ ments which we understand the federal government expects to bring forward quite soon.

That relates to personal bankruptcies and to some co-operation be­ tween the provincial departments of consumer affairs and the federal government relating to administra­ tion, in what's known as

Part 10. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, a short supplementary to the hon. Minister of Business Development and Tourism. Can the minister indicate if the information on bank­ ruptcies available to his department is monitored, and if discussions are going on with the minister's de­ partment and people who may be looking at business failures? Is there any kind of liaison in the minister's department? MR. DOWLING: Mr. Speaker, I can say briefly that our department is always open to anyone who wants advice or counselling with regard to new business ventures.

We have an ongoing discussion with all facets of the business community in Alberta. We have some statistical information. I understand, through a recent press release, that additional statis­ tical information on bankruptcies is coming forward, and our department has been instructed to acquire it. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a supple­ mentary question to the Attorney General. It flows from the earlier question of my colleague from Clover Bar.

With regard to his proposal that the Attorney General's Department supply the office space and so on, and that the industry in fact supply the staff, is the Attorney General aware of the concern expressed by the industry that what he is doing is simply shift­ ing the legal responsibility that he is concerned about from his department to the industry people? MR. FOSTER: Well, I find nothing wrong with that, Mr. Speaker, if the Leader of the Opposition is sug­ gesting there's something sinister or undesirable in that. Clearly that's a very desirable thing.

I mean, the industry is the one that's taking this information and virtually selling it to a wide variety of users. They're being paid for the information. I find nothing wrong in having them accountable for the informa­ tion. To the extent that it is provided legally, then the Crown's obligation with respect to users is there. At the moment, it's not being provided in a proper fash­ ion legally, and we have some difficulty. So I don't have any difficulty at all, Mr.

Speaker, if the Leader of the Opposition is suggesting we are laying more of the legal responsibility at the face of those who profit from the sale of the information. MR. CLARK: The question to the Attorney General is simply this: is the Attorney General aware of that concern being expressed, not by those people who sell the information but by the people who make use of the information, the small business community in Alberta? Hopefully those are the people the Attorney General and I are both concerned with. MR.

FOSTER: Well, I'm happy to hear the Leader of the Opposition is concerned, because I've had the opportunity of saying so on a few occasions. Yes, I understand the users of the information are con­ cerned. They're not so concerned about legal respon­ sibility as they are about accuracy and availability of the information. I don't want to put anything in place or take anything out of place — not yet I haven't — that is going to disturb that. I don't think the average businessman cares one whit about the legal respon­ sibility of some of the major credit reporting agencies in the country. Mr.

Speaker, the real problem with this proposal and with the industry is that they're not so sure they can trust each other. It means they are all going to have to work together for a change, and put all their eggs in one basket with one person reporting to them. They want to be satisfied they are getting accurate information. I think they are having a little difficulty agreeing among themselves that they can have confi­ dence in working together with one person in the court information system. So I think that the argu­ ment about legal responsibility is a red herring. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary by the hon.

Member for Edmonton Jasper Place. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, it's my recollection that the concern about legal responsibility was raised by the Attorney General. I'm wondering if he can advise whether in fact there have been any suits or prob­ lems arising from any alleged legal responsibility. In other words, over the past experience in the provision of that information, has the government had any occasion to be faced with lawsuits or any other claims arising from that kind of legal responsibility? MR. FOSTER: Mr. Speaker, not that I'm aware of.

But having said that, let's not take too much aid and comfort from that statement, because the community of this province are now aware that the Crown is concerned about its legal responsibility. I don't think too many people even thought about the possibility of

390 ALBERTA HANSARD March 30, 1978 the Crown being liable for misinformation. Now that I'm standing in this Legislature with the microphone and perhaps a good many people listening and watch­ ing, people are going to be a good deal more con­ scious of the possibility of Crown liability for mis­ takes. That's an unfortunate by-product of dealing with our problem. It's there, it's in public, and I simply acknowledge it. But recognizing the problem, I think I would be irresponsible if I didn't move to take some steps towards a solution.

I think that I am, and that the solution we come to will be mutually acceptable and free of liability for all parties, because the work will be done conscientiously, responsibly, and thoroughly. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, may I have leave to ask a post-supplementary which would be very brief and would simply be to the Attorney General? MR. SPEAKER: Can the hon. member promise that the answer will be brief? MR. YOUNG: It should be brief, Mr. Speaker.

The answer could be yes or no: whether or not the Attorney General's Department, in the negotiations which are ensuing, would consider the concept of liability management as proposed to the Attorney General's department; and whether it will be consid­ ering the proposition for word processing of the Mag Card proposition which was advanced. MR. FOSTER: Yes, Mr. Speaker. Medicine Hat — Industrial Growth MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the hon. Minister of Business Development and Tourism.

Having regard for my concern expressed to the minis­ ter for the economic welfare and industrial growth in southeastern Alberta, particularly Medicine Hat, I wonder if he can advise the Assembly whether he's had an opportunity of reviewing the situation with regard to the Goodyear plant in Medicine Hat respect­ ing their operation and sales and production of tires in Alberta? MR. DOWLING: Yes, Mr. Speaker, and I thank the hon. member for his concern expressed earlier. We have a regional development officer located in Medi­ cine Hat. He was in contact with the manager of the Goodyear plant. As you know, Mr.

Speaker, the plant manufactures a great number of farm tractor and machinery tires rather than the normal automobile [tire], so they are in fairly good shape at the moment. They don't consider they will be laying off people in the near future, although they did have some fluctua­ tion in the market in February which caused them to lay off some 30 people at that time.

I was also informed by the manager that he and his senior management people and a great number of employees were extremely distressed at the state­ ment made by the Leader of the Opposition that there was a slowdown in the operation of that plant in Medicine Hat. The plant is operating on a five-day week, and they consider the statement by the leader irresponsible. MR. SPEAKER: There is considerable question in the Chair's mind as to whether the statement of an hon. member made in this Assembly should be subject to censure in this sort of roundabout fashion by some­ body outside the Assembly. DR.

BUCK: He can apologize outside. MR. HORSMAN: A supplementary question with re­ spect to the question of economic industrial growth in southeastern Alberta and Medicine Hat. I wonder if the hon. minister could advise the Assembly as to the development of additional secondary manufacturing industries in Medicine Hat, particularly related to Alberta Gas Chemicals? MR. DOWLING: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I can. The Alberta Gas Chemicals operation did apply to the Energy Resources Conservation Board for a permit to develop two new methanol plants in that city, or extensions to the present plants.

The ERCB recommended they be approved by cabinet. They were approved by cabinet. In that ERCB industrial development permit, there are definite stipulations: the firm must utilize Alberta engineers, Alberta labor, Alberta content as far as is possible, and they must build a plant within a certain period of time. That period of time has not yet expired. I would suggest that perhaps the Alberta Gas Chemical organization would build one plant first of all, although I understand they have a permit for two additional plants.

Perhaps the Minister of Energy and Natural Resources might wish to enlarge if I haven't covered it adequately. MR. GETTY: Mr. Speaker, I was going to stand on a different issue. But I think the hon. minister has covered it adequately. I was going to ask, Mr. Speaker, for leave of the House to respond to a question raised to me over the last few days regarding the Mclntyre coal contract negotiations in Grande Cache. I advised the House I'd respond as soon as possible, and I've received an important message about that. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. SPEAKER: I'm assuming that the hon.

Member for Medicine Hat-Redcliff has no further supplementaries. MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Speaker, I did have one further supplementary for the Minister of Energy and Natural resources. To the minister's knowledge, has an an­ nouncement been made yet with respect to the actual construction of the Alberta Gas Chemical plants in Medicine Hat? MR. GETTY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. MLA from that area advised me today that he had that information. AN HON. MEMBER: He wants you to pat him on the back. DR. BUCK: Enlarge the cabinet to 30. Coal Industry — Grande Cache MR. GETTY: Mr. Speaker, the reason I want to

March 30, 1978 ALBERTA HANSARD 391 respond as soon as possible on the Mclntyre matter is that I believe it was the Member for Spirit River- Fairview who mentioned there would be massive layoffs in the community.

I'd like to read to the House the message received by the Deputy Minister of Energy and Natural Resources today in this regard: I am very pleased to be able to advise you we concluded our negotiations with the Japanese buyers this afternoon for the sale and purchase of Smoky River Coal . . . on substantially the terms we sought as to both tonnage and price, although with provision for a somewhat larger percentage of this tonnage optionally purchase- able by the buyers than under our current agreement.

Nevertheless the basic tonnage purchase commitment by the buyers, coupled with much larger tonnage contracted for by Canada's steel mills than previously, plus sales to Brazil and South Korea now booked, indicate a level of production which will permit business as usual and no layoff at our Smoky River operation. We very much appreciate the interest you and Mr. Getty have shown in this matter and your offer of assistance in these negotiations. I can assure you these factors were in the minds of the Japanese negotiators and played no small

part in the equitable treatment we have received in these difficult circumstances. With best wishes R.B. Fulton President, Mclntyre Mines MR. SPEAKER: The time allotted for the question period has run out. I have recognized the hon. Member for Calgary McCall. Would the Assembly agree that he might put a short question for a short answer? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. Home Adaptation for Handicapped MR. LITTLE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the hon. Minister of Housing and Public Works.

With reference to the home adaptation program the minister announced this afternoon, would the minis­ ter be prepared to clarify or define just who is eligible for the grants described in the program? MR. YURKO: Very briefly, Mr. Speaker, much of this information is covered in the pamphlet. But I do want to make this statement: this program is not limited to senior citizens. It covers every home-owner where there is a wheelchair resident. It doesn't matter if it is a single-family home, a duplex, a triplex, or a fourplex.

If there is a person living in that home who has to use a wheelchair on a permanent basis, the program will cover that home. MR. R. SPEAKER: A supplementary to the minister. It's very short. Does the home adaptation program apply to the automobile of a person who is handicapped? MR. YURKO: No, Mr. Speaker, it only covers the home. MR. KUSHNER: A supplementary question to the min­ ister. Has the minister given any consideration to assisting those who rent who are permanent wheel­ chair operators? MR. YURKO: Mr.

Speaker, there is a clause in the detailed submission which indicates that home ownership is not necessary in all cases, provided residency can be indicated to be permanent. It's intended not only as assistance for a home-owner but really for the wheelchair person, if you wish. DR. PAPROSKI: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, to clarify further. Would the minister indicate whether this program is only for those in wheelchairs or whether it's for anybody who is handicapped and requires some adaptation? MR.

SPEAKER: I wonder if we aren't getting piece­ meal the information which the minister has already agreed to make available in documentary form. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. DR. BUCK: What do you do in caucus? ORDERS OF THE DAY head: WRITTEN QUESTIONS 121. Mr. Notley asked the government the following question:

(1) What is the extent of Alberta's financial contrib­ ution to the federal/provincial committee for humane trapping?

(2) Has this committee commissioned any research projects for the invention and commercialization of alternative traps?

(3) Other than contributions to the federal/ provincial committee for humane trapping, has the government commissioned research or made financial contributions toward the inven­ tion and commercialization of alternative traps? AN HON. MEMBER: Agreed. MR. SPEAKER: I believe I heard someone agreeing to the question, but I'm not sure which minister agreed MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, yes, accepted. 122. Mr. Notley asked the government the following question:

(1) With reference to the full text of ministerial statements by the ministers of Education, Hospi­ tals and Medical Care, and Social Services and Community Health, which were transmitted in full on the publicly funded Alberta Communica­ tions Network, March 3, 6, and 8, what is the policy of the government respecting use of this facility by members of the Assembly to publish and communicate statements made in the As­ sembly over ACN?

(2) Are there any plans to extend this service to MLAs other than members of Executive Council?

392 ALBERTA HANSARD March 30, 1978 AN HON. MEMBER: Agreed. head: MOTIONS FOR RETURNS MR. FOSTER: Mr. Speaker, I move that Motion for a Return 123 stand. [Motion carried] 120. Mr.

Clark moved that an order of the Assembly do issue for a return showing: (1) the names of all executive assistants employed by the Minister Without Portfolio responsible for Native Affairs since he assumed that responsibility; (2) the present position, if any, and salary of each such executive assistant named in (1), either on the staff of Executive Council or in the Alberta public service, or in any contractual relationship to the provincial government. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I move the following amendment to Motion for a Return No. 120 . . . MR. HYNDMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I don't believe the mover of a motion can add an amendment to his motion. Perhaps one of the gentleman's colleagues could do it. MR. CLARK: Very well, Mr. Speaker. I'll ask my col­ league to move the amendment. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to move the amendment to Motion for a Return No. 120 as fol­ lows: in section (1), that the words "executive assis­ tants" be replaced by the words "contract emp­ loyees"; in section (2), that the words "executive assi­ stant" be replaced by the words "contract employee". MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to adjourn debate. MR. SPEAKER: May the hon.

Government House Leader adjourn the debate? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. head: MOTIONS OTHER THAN GOVERNMENT MOTIONS 208. Moved by Dr. Buck:

Be it resolved that the Legislative Assembly of Alberta urge the government of Alberta to introduce legisla­ tion to reduce the present high cost of natural gas and petroleum-derived energy to Alberta's agricultural, residential, and small business consumer. DR. BUCK: Mr.

Speaker, in my travels across this province, and especially in meeting with people who are either in or associated with the agricultural indus­ try, the main theme that comes up time after time after time is: what are you lousy politicians going to do about the increasing cost of energy as it applies to the cost of our production as far as it goes into producing agricultural products in this province? Mr.

Speaker, I believe we have to look at increased energy costs in the areas they affect our primary producers, because we seem to have an ironical situation where we have freezes on incomes, on the civil service, on people's wages, but we have monitor­ ing but no control over the cost of energy in this province. Many times it has been brought to my attention, and I'm sure to other members of this Assembly, that our wages are frozen, but what is happening to the costs of energy and telephones? I don't have an answer for these people.

The people who ask these questions are wondering if we are really sincere when we are trying to keep the cost of energy down. Mr. Speaker, in proposing this resolution I would first like to say that the government announcement in the budget, that the 10 cent per gallon provincial gasoline tax is to be removed and that the farm fuel distribution allowance is to be increased to 12 cents per gallon, was certainly welcomed. Mr. Speaker, I was at a meeting in Peace River about four hours before the budget was to be brought down.

At that provincial convention I said a contest may be coming up in this province within the next year, and I would like it to be stated in this building at this time that the 10 cents will be removed from gasoline; and don't forget I told you, and it was here. So I guess my extrasensory perception was working very well, because just that night the Provincial Treasurer made that announcement. So I guess it was rather timely, but it wasn't so timely that it shouldn't have been done in 1974 when I first sug­ gested to the hon. government members that this be done.

So often we hear about how low the price of our gasoline is. But that doesn't hold water, Mr. Speaker, when we look at what has really happened. Mr. Speaker, the 10 cent removal is certainly a beneficial step to all Alberta motorists. But I must also note that these steps we advocated in 1974 have just now been acted upon. A year to the day after I introduced the resolution, the announcement was made that we abolish all provincial fuel oil taxes. No doubt the hon. Member for Lacombe and the hon.

Member for Edmonton Highlands, who posed this resolution at this time, have gone back to Han­ sard to read their speeches to find out the multitude of reasons why we couldn't do this. But it's amazing how the year before an election or six months before an election you suddenly find the money. AN HON. MEMBER: Two months. DR. BUCK: Two months before the election? Fine. The sooner we get these fellows out of here, Mr. Speaker, the better off all the people of Alberta will be. So I welcome that, if it were to come two months from now. Mr.

Speaker, the removal of the provincial gasoline tax is a progressive action which should enable the people of this province to receive at a more realistic price a valuable resource which they own. When speaking of prices, the government has made a point of stressing that Alberta has the lowest priced gas in the country. But I think we should have just a little closer look at these supposed lower prices we're talk­ ing about. At the present time, regular grade gasoline sells for an average of 86 cents per gallon at a full service retail outlet in Edmonton. Removal of the provincial

March 30, 1978 ALBERTA HANSARD 393 gasoline tax should in theory bring this down to 76 cents per gallon. In comparison, gas goes for an average of 96 cents per gallon in Regina, 93 cents in Winnipeg, and 92 cents in Toronto: provinces which have provincial gasoline taxes of 18 to 19 cents per gallon. Therefore, if Ontario followed Alberta's example and ended its 19 cent per gallon fuel tax, gas would sell for 73 cents per gallon in Toronto, a full 3 cents per gallon cheaper than tax-free gasoline in Edmonton.

Furthermore, the Toronto gasoline is refined from Alberta crude oil after the high cost of being transported several thousand miles. You know, it's nice to have the Minister of Business Develop­ ment and Tourism tell us how lucky we are to live in the province of Alberta and have this cheap gasoline. In essence, if one looks at gasoline prices west of the Ottawa Valley, after the removal of gasoline taxes by the appropriate provinces involved, it becomes clear that many other provinces receive gas far cheaper than Alberta consumers, the very owners themselves.

The fact is that the government's claim that the Alberta consumer gets the best gasoline deal of any province is just a little suspect. And I am putting that rather mildly. Removal of the provincial gasoline tax should help the people of Alberta to receive their valuable energy resources at a fair and equitable price. But the end of this regressive tax is only the first step if cheaper energy and not temporary political cosmetics is the real goal.

I would never accuse this government of doing that just because there may an election com­ ing, because I know how difficult it was last year to remove the 10 cent gasoline tax. What were we going to do to replace the $91 million? Well I guess that shouldn't really be that much of a problem, and it's not when an election is coming. You know, it's easy to do this when an election is coming. Take off the 10 cents and you suddenly find the $91 million. So it will be interesting to see what the hon. Member for Lacombe tells us, how all the multitudes were going to be suffering when we take away the $91 million.

Which programs would I suggest they slash? Mr. Speaker, the government must also ensure the consumer that the 10 cent per gallon discount is passed on fully to the customer. MR. KIDD: Mr. Speaker, point of order. In view of your ruling the other day that we don't read from documents, is that the hon. Member for Clover Bar's own document? DR. BUCK: Will the hon. member sit down, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: I have been observing what has been going on in the Assembly, and I say that not face­ tiously.

I wondered at times whether the hon. member was reading his speech, but it seemed to me that he wasn't just directly reading it and he might have just notes in front of him. [interjections] Unless it's an obvious case of reading, I think it's incumbent on the Chair to give an hon. member the benefit of the doubt. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, I would like to say that for a long time, long before you were here, it was tradition in this Legislative Assembly that notes were not used. This business of reading from notes has come in since the Progressive Conservative government came to this province. AN HON.

MEMBER: What are you doing? AN HON. MEMBER: Prepared speech. DR. BUCK: At least I can read, which is more than I can say for the hon. Member for Banff. But I am not reading from more than an outline. So if the hon. Member for Banff doesn't want to take any more time in this House, if that's how interested he is, he can go out and have a coffee. We don't hear very often from any of the backbenchers anyway, so it doesn't really matter. Mr. Speaker, during the past several years the retail gasoline industry has seen the profit margin shrink and shrink. Because the margin of the retail

section of the industry has been cut so fine, I hope that in an attempt to try to stay solvent, this 10 cents that's been removed is not eaten up by increased prices or in some other form because the Minister of Business Development and Tourism hasn't done his thing or hasn't tried to help the industry. Mr. Speak­ er, I'm sure this would not do what the legislation intended. Mr. Speaker, the government has stated it will do nothing to help make sure the consumer realizes the 10 cent reduction, other than to increase its monitor­ ing of gasoline prices. Well, that certainly doesn't reassure me.

When I heard the hon. Minister of Business Development and Tourism tell us how they monitor, that really makes me nervous. Because the type of monitoring the minister does certainly doesn't indicate too much of what is really going on in the province. The monitoring done by the Minister of Business Development and Tourism makes me ner­ vous. Stronger sanctions are needed. Another price increase for crude oil is slated for August, a price hike that will most likely eat up the few pennies per gallon that gasoline will probably drop in price. To summarize for the hon. Member for Banff, Mr.

Speaker, the government's announcement of the end of the provincial tax will prove only illusive and short­ lived in terms of real benefit for the people of Alberta, unless we are assured that the entire 10 cents is passed on. I'm sure the Member for Banff will en­ lighten us on some of the shortcomings of trying to establish this type of policy. We're willing to listen to what the hon. Member for Banff has to say. I hope he's speaking for himself, not for the company he used to be an employee of. Because I'm sure the member is here to represent his people, not the firm he happened to work for. Mr.

Speaker, a related announcement in the budget was the increase in the farm fuel distribution allow­ ance to 12 cents per gallon. This is a long overdue benefit to Alberta's farmers which the official opposi­ tion certainly endorses. But the average benefit of $164 per farm in the coming year represents nothing more than mere tokenism to our hard-pressed agri­ cultural sector. The hon. Minister of Agriculture tries to tell us all the great things this government's doing for agricul­ ture. Mr.

Speaker, he may be able to fool himself but he can't fool the farmers, the agricultural sector which is still the backbone of the economy in this province. The government has given the farmers a

394 ALBERTA HANSARD March 30, 1978 mere 4 cents per gallon extra when, using the gov- ernment's own statistics, farm input costs have risen by over 220 per cent in the last two years and farm revenues have fallen millions of dollars. The open and responsive government has given the weekend motorist a break, certainly. It's fine. We own the product, so we should get that kind of break. But the struggling farmer is really only getting 4 cents. So this is a far cry from a government that's supposed to be sensitive to inequalities, as the throne speech proclaimed. Mr.

Speaker, if the present government really is concerned with helping Alberta's small business, ag­ ricultural, and residential consumer cope with the high cost of energy, a comprehensive energy package should be introduced immediately. Enough of this ad hockery, where you throw a bone here and a bone there. Fine, that helps to buy votes. But I'd like to say to the government that once the farmers have been had once and then a second time, they just don't believe this government anymore.

This comprehensive energy package would embrace three moves additional to guaranteeing that the 10 cent per gallon reduction caused by the end of the provincial gasoline tax is indeed passed on to the consumer and a much greater farm fuel distribution allowance implemented, Mr. Speaker. First, a uniform refinery gate price should be estab­ lished for gasoline. This would result in a single, province-wide wholesale price, eliminating the fluc­ tuations of up to 20 cents per gallon which can often occur between different communities as well as be­ tween rural and urban areas.

At the convention in Peace River that I mentioned, a gentleman from Rainbow Lake, where the stuff comes out of the ground, informed me that the price of his gasoline was $1.045 and $1.085. You know, it's quite inter­ esting. We can do this for booze. The price of booze in the north and the price of booze in the south is almost the same price as booze right here. I mean, what's more important, booze or gasoline for the farmers trying to make a living in the Peace River country? MR. NOTLEY: With a government like this, booze. DR. BUCK: With a government like this, it looks like booze, Mr. Speaker. AN HON.

MEMBER: They don't care whether you're drinking or driving. DR. BUCK: Booze seems to be more important to this government than gasoline for the frontier areas. So, Mr. Speaker, the same should be done for gasoline, which is most important, which is a high percentage of the cost of production for our agricul­ tural sector. It's totally unacceptable that the people in northern Alberta should have to pay in excess of $1 per gallon for gasoline when those in central and southern Alberta and practically all other Canadians west of the Ottawa Valley can get gasoline, refined from Alberta crude oil, cheaper.

This is an inequity which the government of this province has done absolutely nothing to help out with. A uniform refinery gate price for gasoline would subsidize gaso­ line consumers in northern Alberta, where it's diffi­ cult to make a living farming. This same rule would apply in other parts of the province. Mr. Speaker, the second step required for the es­ tablishment of a comprehensive energy strategy designed to benefit Alberta consumers is the removal of royalties levied on natural gas produced in Alberta and supplied to the province's small business, agri­ cultural, and residential users.

This would provide an immediate and real benefit, a price reduction of between 30 and 40 per cent. I would like to say at this time in this House that we will see a program either exactly like this or very similar to this before the next game of skill and science comes across to the voter of this province. We will have the royalty practically removed before the next election, Mr. House Leader, just in case you were wondering about this game of skill and science I was talking about. [interjections] The government is already starting to hear rumblings.

In his big speech in Ottawa the Premier said, we're concerned about the farmers of this province. Well, it's the first time I've heard him concerned. To me that means an election must be coming. There must be an election coming, because . . . MR. NOTLEY: Six months every four years. DR. BUCK: That's right. Six months we pay lip- service to the fact that the government realizes there are farmers in this province. So there must be an election coming. Otherwise the Premier would have forgotten all about the farmers again. So, Mr. Speaker, the costly and ineffective natural gas price protection plan should be ended.

Take all the royalty off. MR. TRYNCHY: It's off already. DR. BUCK: No, it isn't, Mr. Whip. You'd better go to caucus and find out, because it's not off. Since the inception of the NGPPP, the natural gas price protection plan, the government will have spent almost $400 million at the end of the next fiscal year. But what have been the results? Let's look at what the people say, Mr. Speaker, because we're here to serve the people. A couple from Hanna indicated their natural gas bill for January 1978 is in excess of $100, double their 1977 bill. This government is real­ ly helping its people. MR.

PURDY: What was their bill in '71 — natural gas in the rural areas? DR. BUCK: Go and find out. Go and find out. MR. R. SPEAKER: Do his own research. DR. BUCK: The hon. Member for Stony Plain, who works for an energy resource producing company, would know we've been very, very fortunate that we haven't had cold winters the last two years. Other­ wise there would be lynch mobs on the front steps of this Legislature every other week, protesting the high costs of power and gas. MR. NOTLEY: They have to have that election before it gets cold.

March 30, 1978 ALBERTA HANSARD 395 DR. BUCK: That's right. Mr. Speaker, I predict this little election I'm talking about will come this fall. MR. R. SPEAKER: Before the first snow. DR. BUCK: The boys are starting to get a little edgy, Mr. Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER: Let us know ahead of time. DR. BUCK: The vibrations from the grass roots are telling them that things are not great in good old Alberta.

The basic philosophy of this government is: don't leave any money in the pockets of the people who own the resource; take all the money you can because you are smarter than the man in the street, you can hand it back to him. But I'm a free enterpris­ er, Mr. Speaker, and I like that money to be in my pocket. [interjections] I know the government, with its streak of pink — and that's giving them the benefit of the doubt — keeps trying to convince the people of Alberta it still believes in competitive free enterprise. But I would be nervous, too. As a matter of fact, Mr.

Speaker, I couldn't carry a Tory card and live in this province and belong to this party, because I think there's very little difference between owning one of Notley's cards and owning one of the Alberta PC cards. [interjections] Just look at some of the government legislation. AN HON. MEMBER: It's four times as much for NDP. DR. BUCK: Heaven forbid that the hon. Member for Spirit River-Fairview ever got to be Premier of this province. Heaven forbid, Mr. Speaker. But he would have to change very few of the laws. We've nationa­ lized an air line, a chemical company . . . MR. PURDY: Mr.

Speaker, on a point of order, can the hon. member get back to the motion . . . DR. BUCK: Will that guy behind me please sit down? MR. PURDY: . . . we are debating this afternoon, or is he going off in another . . . [inaudible] AN HON. MEMBER: He's forgotten it. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, I'm waiting to hear what the member has to say when he gets an opportunity. He'll get an opportunity fairly soon. Mr. Speaker, another instance: this lady from Brooks says her gas bill came to $87 last month, double that of the previous month.

She writes, I don't know how I can keep paying these bills when they charge so much, and this in the province with all the gas. That's what the people at the grass roots are saying. I could go on, but I don't think the govern­ ment members especially like to hear these letters. AN HON. MEMBER: We don't get any, Walter. DR. BUCK: They don't get them. That's right. They didn't even get any representation on Bill 15. They should all be thrown out for that record. That means the puppet strings were really tight on that bill. DR. WALKER: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

I'm hearing all this about puppets, and I would like . . . DR. BUCK: Will you sit down, Walker. DR. WALKER: On a point of personal privilege, Mr. Speaker . . . AN HON. MEMBER: Sit down, Walter. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, he's taking away from . . . DR. WALKER: A point of personal privilege . . . DR. BUCK: I will trade my time if I will have . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. There is no way the Chair can assess what the hon. member is saying without being able to hear him. DR. WALKER: On a point of personal privilege, Mr. Speaker, we are being called puppets and I looked in the dictionary to find out what that means.

It says, figures of humans or animals which are moved by various means as entertainment. DR. BUCK: That's right. DR. WALKER: It looks like the entertainment's pretty good. Or, it says, persons whose acts are controlled by others. I'm not too sure, Mr. Speaker, that this doesn't mean that possibly the members of this . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. DR. WALKER: [Inaudible] controlled by you, Mr. Speaker. Therefore I'm wondering what he means. MR. SPEAKER: I'm not aware that the use of the word "puppet" in the context in which it has been used is unparliamentary.

It may not be the highest form of flattery, but . . . [interjections] DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, the truth is the truth. That's how it goes. The government likes to remind us how natural gas service has been expanded. In fairness to the gov­ ernment, I compliment them. Except once again they misled the poor old farmer. The cost of putting in those services doubled, tripled. It seemed to be a typical Deputy Premier's program: boys, put 'er in and then tell us the price. Talk about feasibility studies. Mr.

Speaker, many, many farmers in this province can't look their neighbors in the eye, because they told them one thing and then something else hap­ pened. They were told natural gas was going to be one price, then it went up and up and up. You can't blame the directors of the gas co-ops for that. It has to come home to roost right here. Mr. Speaker, if many of these people had known what they were going to have to pay for natural gas, they would have refused to take it. So I say the program has not done its job.

It's nice for the Minister of Utilities and Telephones to send out a little note with your gas bill saying: you lucky souls, just think how much it would have been had we not been such good fellows and brought the reduction plan into effect. We're all supposed to bow

396 ALBERTA HANSARD March 30, 1978 and scrape and say, thank you, government. But the stuff belongs to us, Mr. Speaker. This government is forgetting it is only the guardian of the taxpayers' money. They don't own the stuff. It's a trusteeship for the people of this province. Mr. Speaker, one further component essential for a comprehensive energy strategy is a subsidy for pro­ pane users. A clearly inequitable situation exists today in that all sources of energy except propane and coal receive some form of price support.

Users of natural gas are subsidized by the natural gas protec­ tion plan, which I mentioned, and which I am sure the government members will mention. Gasoline users benefit by the 10 cent reduction in gasoline tax and the increased farm distribution allowance. Furthermore, while propane is not subsidized its price has been maintained by PUB regulations at a level comparable to heating oil and natural gas. Mr. Speaker, this situation will end with de-regulation on April 1. If one foot follows the other, I suspect prices will increase because the cost of production and all these other costs have gone up.

As a natural sequence of events the price should, and I'm afraid will, rise. Mr. Speaker, the point of a subsidy for propane is not to make it competitive with other fossil fuels but to provide its consumers with assistance similar to that which consumers of other fossil fuels receive from this government. This is only being fair to consumers who don't have natural gas or other sources of energy. The consumers of propane are lobbying.

I hope there isn't one government backbencher who stands up in this Legislature and tells us they haven't received any representation from their constituents on this matter, because then they certainly don't open their mail. If they didn't get any representation on Bill 15, and they don't get any representation on the propane question, then I say they don't even go to pick up their mail. MR. NOTLEY: Maybe the public's given up on them. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, we have just received six petitions representing over 200 people from one con­ stituency alone. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Does that make allow­ ance for the hon. Member for Macleod who stole two minutes of my time? I'll speak very quickly. AN HON. MEMBER: What page are you on? DR. BUCK: The average propane cost of the 200 people from this one constituency amounts to be­ tween $80 and $100 per month. This is much too great a financial burden for some of our hard-pressed farmers to bear, especially those in frontier areas who have no choice but to rely on propane. Mr. Speaker, a subsidy for propane is also strongly en­ dorsed by Unifarm, the city of Edmonton, and the consumers associations of Alberta and Canada.

Such a subsidy will also benefit the propane indus­ try. This industry is having problems, with services being terminated in many locations. Possibly this can be because some areas have natural gas. That's certainly a possibility. But further deterioration will have an adverse effect on the economy of the prov­ ince from an overall point of view. Furthermore, Mr. Speaker, in a recent judgment the PUB stated it is sympathetic to this argument and recommends that the government of Alberta consider and, if it finds such action to be just and reasonable, implement such a scheme.

So here's another thing hon. government members can use for this upcoming game of skill and science. Mr. Speaker, I have about three minutes left, and I'll move very quickly. A subsidy for propane will not be an expensive move. A 10 cent to 12 cent per gallon subsidy — comparable to that now received by gasoline con­ sumers by ending the gasoline tax and by farmers in the farm fuel distribution allowance — would cost no more than the palace the government is building down in southern Alberta, Government House South.

This subsidy would benefit about 35,000 Albertans, far more than the handful of cabinet ministers and Calgary MLAs who will use the palace in the south. So to summarize, Mr. Speaker, the government should introduce legislation to reduce the present high cost of natural gas and petroleum-derived ener­ gy supplied to Alberta's agricultural, residential, and small business consumer.

This long overdue com­ prehensive energy strategy should involve, number one, guaranteeing that gasoline consumers . . . [inter­ jections] They're telling me I have to speed up . . . that gasoline consumers receive a full 10 cents per gasoline discount at the pumps, that we as consum- ers get that 10 cents; secondly, increasing the farm fuel distribution allowance to really lower farm input costs; three, establishing a uniform refinery gate price for gasoline across the province to remove inequities. If we can do it for booze, surely we can do it for gasoline that farmers require for production of their products.

Fourthly, the removal of royalties on natural gas consumed in Alberta, thereby bringing a 30 to 40 per cent reduction in price. Finally, Mr. Speaker, introduction of a 10 to 12 per cent subsidy on propane. The Deputy Premier is back here, and he's always so worried about the farmers. I'm sure he's going to be in the forefront in bringing this in. This would remove an inequity the users of this fuel now face. Mr. Speaker, I welcome members of this Assembly to engage in this very timely debate, and I thank you for your patience. MR. BATIUK: Mr. Speaker, I too welcome the oppor­ tunity to participate in this debate.

Not that I do it very often, but I would like to congratulate the hon. Member for Clover Bar . . . DR. BUCK: We're neighbors, John. MR. BATIUK: . . . for finally waking up and coming up with a resolution such as this, which is long overdue. Even though the hon. Member for Clover Bar repre­ sents a constituency very close to mine, the condi­ tions are the same. I'm glad he has expressed his concerns about the cost of petroleum. Such concerns have been expressed to me over the past. But as I mentioned, I only regret that for 36 years Social Credit didn't go in that direction.

The hon. member, who has been a representative of his constituency for 11 years — 4 years with the government, 7 years in the opposition — has never thought of that before.

March 30, 1978 ALBERTA HANSARD 397 Even though he awoke late, it's better than never. Mr. Speaker, his resolution makes me think of that elevator on Highway 2, when a person travels by Ellerslie. There is a big inscription on that elevator, and it says, there is great joy in heaven even if one sinner repenteth. I would say this much the same even though it's only one, and many years too late. The concern has been expressed to me over the past. We are moving on those concerns. But the bigger concern in my constituency has been the high cost of dental service.

When the cost to fill a tooth nowadays could probably heat an average-size home for two months, one starts wondering. I think the hon. member would have done much better had he proposed a motion to try to reduce the costs of dental service. Mr. Speaker, approximately . . . DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, on a point of privilege. We are elected in this Legislature to represent our peo­ ple, not our professions, and I would like the hon. member to withdraw that statement. [interjections] Beauchesne states very explicitly that we are elected to represent our people, not our professions or our region.

We are here to represent all the people of the province. [interjections] MR. BATIUK: Mr. Speaker, as I mentioned, we repre­ sent constituencies very close to one another, even though the representation is somewhat different. Mr. Speaker, some 20 years ago I was interested in natural gas. I had made an application to Northwest­ ern Utilities to give me an estimate of cost if I put in a line myself. I was only one-quarter of a mile from the end of the town's gas line. The estimate at that time approximated $1,500.

Well, that was the last of it, because 20 years ago $1,500 would be much the same to me as $10,000 today. At that time, and until 10 years ago, I used to burn wood and coal. There have been months when coal would have cost me as much as $40 per month. A few years ago I changed to propane, and here again the cost would be some­ times $40, sometimes $55, sometimes $35, but the cost was there. When the gas co-op was formed in my area, the first thing I did was become a member. My monthly bills for natural gas over the last year have come to $19.25.

True enough, it cost me ap­ proximately $2,000 for installation, but I figured the saving on natural gas over the next 10 years is going to pay for the gas line. In 1973, when the former Minister of Utilities and Telephones brought in a program to give the program to those 80,000 Albertans who were not in a position to burn the clean fuel, that program was intended to be spread out and conclude in approximately 10 years. I think that's where one of the biggest prob­ lems came from.

All the farm people were so glad there was finally one province in Canada where the rural areas would be able to enjoy natural gas that they just about all wanted it at one time. The co-ops were approved and went at such a pace that there was a shortage of materials. Because of that, it's not surprising that the costs escalated and maybe nowa­ days we are feeling the pinch in paying the gas bills. It's worthy of note that in just four years after the program started, over 65 per cent of the people in rural Alberta have the opportunity and are using natural gas.

Our government has spent $170 million to assist in capital costs to provide lines in rural areas. Even though the hon. member may say we should be looking at propane, I can well agree and I would have nothing against it if we subsidized or provided some transportation allowance on propane. Just as is true of everybody else, he mentioned he gets letters from constituents requesting a transportation allowance on propane. I have received those. But when did I receive them? After the propane companies sent let­ ters to their customers to rely on the MLAs, to pressure them for some allowance, for some subsidy.

Yet it is these same propane companies that have been lobbying the government to take off the freeze we had for two and one-half years. Mr. Speaker, not only was the $170 million put in to help rural Albertans put in their gas lines; $110 million has been budgeted for the natural gas protec­ tion plan. When we look at $110 million and at our royalty revenue from natural gas, we can see the province is getting very little revenue from consumers in the province.

Not only are the royalties almost given back in this $110 million; an additional $170 million has been put in to actually subsidize the people to use free gas. Many times I have looked at the costs gas co-ops and others are complaining about, and that's because of the low hookup. For a gas co-op that could have maybe 1,000 signed up and has only 400 or 500 consumers, the maintenance costs are the same, the lines are there. If everybody used this gas, I think natural gas would be considera­ bly lower than it is at present.

I am very fortunate, and I think all rural MLAs are very fortunate, that the city MLAs have supported programs such as this. When there is an outright grant of $170 million to rural Alberta, every Albertan is helping to pay for that. So I appreciate the support of the city MLAs over the past number of years for all the programs for rural Alberta. The 10 cent gasoline tax, which is eliminated as of the first of April, is going to mean another $95 million to the consumers of this province. Actually it's going to supplement income.

It's not only that those who go pleasure driving use it; there are people who use their vehicles to go to work, and every 10 cents on every gallon they save could be counted as additional income for them. Along with that, the gasoline transportation allow­ ance is going to mean $164 to the average farmer. To some it may mean $1,000, to some it may mean considerably lower. However, the total amount is going to bring an average of $164 to the farmer. The hon. Member for Clover Bar mentioned this was long overdue. When we just look back, in 1968 an addi­ tional gasoline tax was put on by the former adminis­ tration.

Also about that time, a new 3 cent per gallon gas tax was put on farm fuel. That was going to stay, but because of all the pressures and demands it was taken off in a short while. The hon. member now says it's long overdue. Another area — whether or not there's going to be an election; I'm not predicting an election, I think this government is one which does not bring something good to the people only at election time. They get that in every year's budget. The hon. member said the Premier is so concerned about agriculture that an election may be coming.

A year ago he went to Iran looking for markets for agricultural products, and the

398 ALBERTA HANSARD March 30, 1978 opposition squawked as much as possible that, boy, he's interfering with federal jurisdiction. Mr. Speaker, the hon. member says, gee, the way Conservatives talk, it's so good here in Alberta. I had brought this magazine before the House, but I want to again; maybe the hon. member wasn't here then: The 1978 Economic Forecast: Good News, the place to be next year is Alberta. Bad News, for almost everywhere else in Canada. Mr. Speaker, not only that; I know when the hon.

Member for Spirit River-Fairview stands up, he's going to make his comparison between Saskatche­ wan and Alberta. He used to do it with British Columbia and Manitoba, but there's only Saskatche­ wan left. Just recently I got a Saskatchewan travel guide, very interesting. When you open it up: "Saska­ tchewan, the land of coal and oil"; yes, the land of coal and oil, just like Alberta. Only in Alberta there's prosperity; in Saskatchewan, poverty. This is one in­ dication of where there's good managership. Mr.

Speaker, another thing I feel — regardless of what the hon. member was saying, that this may not be the place or it is not just as good as we are trying to show — when we look at Alberta gaining a popula­ tion of 5,000 monthly, these are not all born in Alberta. I would say that 80 per cent are from elsewhere, and this magazine tells why they are coming here. I think we'll have to start trying to conserve energy, and maybe it would cost a little bit less.

If a person is going to have both of his windows open in the house and have his thermostat set at 85 or 90, naturally it's going to cost lots because a lot of gas is going to be consumed. With cars: I have found out already; I reduced my speed limit, and I can see that I gained quite a bit in saving of gas. It just makes me think. A few years ago, a lady in the constituency bought a car. In a short while she brought it back to the dealer because it was very heavy on gas, making 4 miles per gallon. The mechanic checked it, but he couldn't find anything.

So he tried the car out and made about 20 miles, came back, filled the tank again, and there was only one gallon of gas. He figured, well it's all right. So he told the lady, "Your car is good". A few days later she brought it back again and said, "You know that car is making about 4 miles per gallon; you haven't done anything to it." He filled up the car with gas and said, "Lady, sit down and drive". He figured maybe her attitude or style of driving — if you speed up and slow down, that's where you are going to burn your gas.

Well, as soon as she sat down in the car, before she opened the switch, she pulled out the manual choke, hung her purse on it, and was going to start the car. The mechanic said, "Well, the problem is solved." As I say, there are different ways, different styles of using your vehicle and everything, to help you to conserve your gas. Mr. Speaker, as this resolution has been brought, our government has been concerned over the last seven years about the conditions of the farmers and so forth. That's why we bring these good programs every time.

We realize that anything done for the farmers is going to help just because of the poor prices in wheat, cattle, and everything.

When we look back through the time of our government in office, we have had many programs to supplement, to help pay for these utilities, pay for other things like the cow-calf operator's grant, the rural water supply, unharvested grain assistance, purchase of haying equipment, the REA shelter costs, grants for gas line installations, Alberta property tax reduction, agricul­ tural societies grants. [inaudible] improvement grants, fuel transportation allowance, feed-freight allowance, the natural gas protection plan, the REA replacement grants, and a dozen other programs that have been initiated during the seven years of our office: pro­ grams that do not exist in any other part of this country.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to close now and say there has been a concern and it has been expressed to me. But I think this concern has been brought much too late. The hon. member should have brought that back in 1967-68. I think he would have had a good resolution. But I cannot see the need for it today when our government is taking that stand. Mr. Speaker, thank you. MR. PURDY: Mr. Speaker, a few words on this resolu­ tion by the Member for Clover Bar. First, I look at the wording of the resolution and just wonder what the member is getting at when he says "bring in legisla­ tion".

We already have legislation in the province to deal with these various things we have been discuss­ ing today. Just a few general remarks on what the Member for Clover Bar said. I remember very well the debate in the House when the Premier very adequately aligned him with the NDP, and he was up hollering, I'm not a socialist, I'm not a socialist. But we hear again today in this House, Mr. Speaker, where he wants to freeze the price of gasoline right across the province at one price. It doesn't matter if it's in Fort Chip, Red Deer, or the cities of Edmonton or Calgary.

That's getting closest to a socialistic thing that I've seen for a long time. [interjections] Mr. Speaker, it appears that the member indicates there probably won't be any reduction of 10 cents on April 1. In other words he has no trust in the retail merchant, the small businessman in Alberta. I have confidence in them, that on April 1 we will see the reduction of 10 cents or very close to the 10 cents at all the pumps in the Stony Plain constituency and, I imagine, in all the constituencies across this province.

He also spoke for a minute or so on the natural gas co-ops in this province and the price of natural gas to the consumers. He said the program is not doing its job. When you can hook up 45,000 farmers or ap­ proximately 175,000 rural users on natural gas, that's not doing its job? I'd like to know what it's doing. The price to the gas co-ops is not that bad when you compare what I as a Northwestern Utilities consumer am paying to that company that has been in this province for a long time. The average price of natural gas to the co-ops in Alberta right now is about $1.41 per MCF.

As a consumer I am paying about $1.20 on an old, established system that has been paid for a long time ago. We've also got to consider that a bit of the capital cost is written into that $1.40 per MCF charge. So if you took that capital cost off, it would bring it down to about what the other consum­ ers are using. So I think the gas program has done an excellent job in the province, giving our farming community an economic fuel for their well-being.

March 30, 1978 ALBERTA HANSARD 399 In 1973 in this Legislature we brought in The Rural Gas Act, and in '74 we brought in The Natural Gas Rebates Act. We now call that the natural gas protec­ tion plan. On February 24 this year, the minister announced extension of that plan for another two years. Regardless of what the price of a barrel of crude oil goes up to at the wellhead, the consumers of Alberta will pay only one-quarter of that cost. We indicate that on a price increase of $1 for crude oil, 17 cents is reflected in the price of natural gas. So the consumer of natural gas will pay about a 4 cent increase.

He knows what he will pay, and I think they are happy at that. I indicated in earlier remarks in this Legislature that I attended a couple of rural gas meetings. When I attended the same meetings last year, there was concern about the price of natural gas. But when we came in with the statement this February 24, that it was going to be this for the next two years, there wasn't one question regarding the price of natural gas at either the West Parkland or the Ste. Anne gas co-op meeting. There were some other concerns, but not on the price of fuel.

The people there who are hooked up and using this fuel appreciate what we have done to get that commodity to their farmyards. In 1974 we went through the fuel oil administra­ tion act and took 5 cents off the price of gasoline at the pump. This was reflected to the consumers of Alberta. In 1978 in this Legislature, at this particular time, we have before us amendments for a reduction of 10 cents at the pump and 12 cents for fuel oil.

We have to look at the savings to our agricultural sector: number one, a direct reduction in farm input costs, with the increase to 12 cents on our farm fuel allowance, plus 10 cents at the pump for farmers who have cars and use them for leisure. I also think of the person living in my constituency and commuting to the city of Edmonton to work. I pick a hypothetical figure of 100 miles, a person driving 100 miles a day. In one year that person will save approximately $200 at the pump in fuel costs, and that's not counting leisure driving. That's just driving to work and back.

I think of the small businessman in my constitu­ ency and in other constituencies in the city of Edmon­ ton. I did a very rough figure the other day of a small businessman in my area who has two tandem gravel trucks. The saving in a one-year period will be ap­ proximately $5,000, which is pretty substantial for the small businessman in this province. We look at the use of purple gas by our farm community in this province last year. In 1977, farm­ ers in Alberta used approximately 100 million gallons of gas. That will be a saving of about $10 million to them.

Diesel fuel was approximately 50 million gal­ lons, or a saving of $5 million to them. In other words, the total saving to our farm community is approximately $250 per farmer per year, depending on the mode of equipment, either diesel or gasoline. I'm starting to lose my voice, Mr. Speaker, so I'm going to have to cut it short. I don't know how far we now can go as a government. We have removed all the tax on gasoline at the pumps. We can't do as the hon.

Member for Clover Bar wants us to and get involved in the free enterprise system and say to the retail merchant: you must also lower that price you now have for a profit margin, or look at the tank wagon price and lower that. We can't do that. The free-enterpriser has got along quite well in this prov­ ince. The entrepreneur built this province. So I just can't go along with the remarks by the hon. Member for Clover Bar that we should look at freezing some of these prices, or saying they have to reduce their profit margins. In some cases that profit margin isn't very great right now.

Regarding propane, I have received a number of letters and have answered all of them, and will be discussing that with my caucus colleagues when the opportune time comes. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, in the one or two minutes left before we get into private members' bills, I'd like to say, first of all, that it seems to me . . . Five minutes? Okay, fair enough. First of all, this argument that somehow the sug­ gestion has been made that there should be a regula­ tion of the retail price, begs all the suggestions I've heard. The suggestion I understood the hon.

Member for Clover Bar to make is that there should be a consistent wholesale price, one tank-wagon price for the entire province. I think there are obviously going to be differences in the retail price. Some service stations have smaller volumes and therefore are going to have to have a slightly larger markup than service stations where you have a very large volume. But, in my view, what this government has not satisfactorily answered is why there is as big a dif­ ference, a difference of anywhere from 1 cent to 5 cents a gallon in the tank-wagon price throughout this province.

You can say, well, the cost of transpor­ tation. Again, if one looks at the differences 10 or 12 years ago and examines the retail price in almost any point — the hon. Member for Clover Bar mentioned Rainbow Lake, High Level, Peace River, any of the communities away from the major centres of Alberta — one finds there has been a remarkable increase in the difference. Ten or 12 years ago we were looking at a difference of perhaps 3 or 4 cents a gallon between the Edmonton area and the Peace River country.

Now, we're looking at as much as 20 cents a gallon, or even more in some cases in communities such as Rainbow Lake. I for one am not standing in my place and saying we can have a completely similar price. As I men­ tioned before, there will be a difference in the markup on the part of the dealers. But I think it's completely logical to expect that the tank-wagon price, including the delivery cost, be equalized so it doesn't make any difference whether that service station operator is in Empress or in Rainbow Lake; the delivery price to his business is the same as in Edmonton or Calgary.

In my judgment, that is the basic argument that has to be hammered home over and over again. For hon. members to stand in their places and say that somehow this is going to be a violation of the so- called free enterprise system is just complete non­ sense, in my view. There may be an argument, if we were saying we're going to regulate the end result by the retailers. But there is nothing wrong with working out a system of equalizing the tank-wagon price in this province.

As a matter of fact, I believe there was even a task force committee by one of the members in the first term of the now team, who is now working with the hon. Mr. Bogle. That particular gentleman — at the time, the hon. Member for Calgary McKnight, I

400 ALBERTA HANSARD March 30, 1978 believe — was suggesting that we have a consistent wholesale price, if I recollect the recommendations of his task force report correctly. If that's the sort of thing contained in the resolution, in my judgment we should be moving in that direction. I'd like to make several other comments on this resolution. The one I think has to be stressed is the requirement, particularly in northern Alberta, to look very carefully at the need to subsidize the price of propane.

We can talk all we like about the rather impressive statistics of the rural gas program, statis­ tics for which in my view we can thank the people, the directors of the co-ops who went out and sold the program to their neighbors. But in large parts of this province, it isn't going to be practical to have rural gas co-ops, and the net result is that people are going to have to rely on propane as the main heating fuel for some years to come. That being the case, Mr. Speaker, it seems to me we should be looking very seriously at a subsidy for propane. The hon.

Member for Vegreville says all the emphasis for propane subsidy is coming from the propane companies, who are encouraging their cus­ tomers to write to their various MLAs. That's proba­ bly true. I've received quite a number of letters in my constituency, and I'm sure other members have throughout rural Alberta. But, Mr. Speaker, the point has to be made: from 1974 until this year, propane was regulated by the Public Utilities Board.

Once that PUB control is removed, the sky is the limit, and propane consumers in this province may face very substantial hikes unless we are committed to make some kind of subsidy available. Mr. Speaker, I see my time has lapsed, therefore I beg leave to adjourn the debate. MR. SPEAKER: Debate is automatically adjourned, of course, when a member's time is interrupted by the clock. head: PUBLIC BILLS AND ORDERS OTHER THAN GOVERNMENT BILLS AND ORDERS (Second Reading) Bill 208

An Act to Amend The Landlord and Tenant Act MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, in rising to lead off debate on Bill No. 208, I would point out first of all that this particular private member's bill is modelled in large part on recommendations of the Landlord and Tenant Advisory Board as well as the Institute of Law Research and Reform assessment of tenants' rights. Mr. Speaker, before getting into the arguments for the bill, I'd like briefly to outline the purpose of Bill 208. It is to set out clearly in legislative form the requirement of security of tenure. There can be evic­ tion; there has to be eviction.

No one is saying that a tenant should be able to stay in premises regardless of the circumstances surrounding the conduct of that particular tenant. But Bill 208 attempts — as a consequence of reviewing the recommendations of people who have been working very closely in the area — to set out reasonable reasons for eviction. Mr. Speaker, I'll out­ line some of the reasons: if the rent is not paid; if the conduct of the tenant is such that the tenant is noisy and upsets other people in the building; damage to the property. These are all, in my view, perfectly reasonable reasons for eviction.

If the landlord, for example, requires the use of the premises, if the landlord is going to move back into the premises, in my judgment that's a perfectly valid reason. The safety of others, or if the tenant is convicted with respect to an illegal act respecting the property itself — again that is, in my judgment, a reason for evic­ tion. A number of other reasons are contained in the legislation, and of course a court could order eviction on additional permitted grounds.

But the basic thrust of the act, the spirit behind Bill 208, is to say, all right, barring these kinds of actions, which are irre­ sponsible, there should be security of tenure. That being the case, Mr. Speaker, perhaps I should move from an explanation of what the bill is to advise the members of the House why I feel that security of tenure legislation is necessary. I suppose it could be argued — I would not argue it — but it could be argued that you wouldn't need security of tenure if you had a perfectly competitive market place as far as accommodation was concerned.

If, for example, the apartment vacancy rate was very high, if an individual tenant didn't like what one apartment owner was doing, he or she could move to another apartment. On the other hand, if a lot of affordable homes were available, if the tenants felt the owner was being unreasonable, they could say, okay, fine, we'll go out and buy a home of our own. But, Mr. Speaker, unfortunately in Alberta in 1978 that is not the situation. We have, first of all, to face a number of unpleasant facts.

Despite assurances by this government that we're going to see a rise in the vacancy rates, the fact of the matter remains that for the last three and a half years, in every survey taken by Central Mortgage and Housing in the city of Edmonton, the vacancy rate has been less that 1 per cent — in every single survey for three and a half years. The last survey showed a no-vacancy rate of approximately 0.1 per cent. So, Mr.

Speaker, despite the talk I have heard in this House for the last number of years — ever since rents began to spiral in 1975 — that we had turned the corner, that sufficient ac­ commodation will be on stream, that we will have a reasonably high vacancy rate, at least sufficiently high that the market place can work — despite all those assurances, the grim reality is that we still have virtually a zero vacancy rate. Mr. Speaker, that raises the question where you don't have alternatives. If you have a vacancy rate of 7 or 8 per cent, then fair enough. I suppose one could argue that the tenant could shop around.

He could try to make the market place work. But with 0.1 per cent, no one, in my judgment, can argue that the market place can work. Now, Mr. Speaker, we had this situation exacer­ bated to a certain extent by the removal of rent controls based on the unit. Admittedly the govern­ ment, in introducing rent controls, will allow the con­ trols to come off the higher priced units first. But as controls are removed, the rental rates will be increased. That is simply going to make it more diffi­ cult for the low- and middle-income people who are now in those units.

It's fine to say, take off the controls, if you've got a 5 or 6 per cent vacancy rate.

March 30, 1978 ALBERTA HANSARD 401 Fair enough. If the person doesn't want to pay an extra $30 or $40 or $50 a month, he can move to another apartment. But that's not the situation in our two major cities at this stage of the game. Now let me move from the question of rental accommodation and assess for a moment the alterna­ tives as far as private homes are concerned.

Again, one could make the argument that if there was an opportunity to obtain affordable housing — housing owned by the individuals — that would act as a bit of a competitive force, and it wouldn't be necessary to protect the security of the tenant. Well, Mr. Speaker, again we look at the facts, and we find that in 1968 the average Edmonton home sold for $15,840. In 1973 that had risen to $23,470.

According to the Edmonton Real Estate Board, the average for Edmon­ ton in 1978 will be $65,234 and Edmonton and Calgary now are . . . in the case of Calgary, at least, the highest city in Canada, as far as the real estate market is concerned. I'm informed that the cheapest housing now on the listing in Edmonton is $40,000 for a 592-square-foot home. That works out to almost $70 a square foot for an older home. We have some of the direst predictions made by various city officials. One of the officials in the city of Edmonton is predicting that within several years a lot in the city of Edmonton could be $50,000.

As I mentioned in my budget speech several days ago, in the town of Fort McMurray where you start out with raw land that doesn't cost a dime, by the time Alberta Housing gets through with the development projects the end cost is $37,000 for a lot. The net result of all this, Mr. Speaker, is that buying a home is not an option for the lower- and middle-income wage earner. So if it's not an option, I think it should be an option. I think we have to move heaven and earth to make it an option.

I would say to the members of the House that the criticism of this government's housing policy is that despite all the money we've put into housing — and no one would argue that we haven't put a good deal of money into housing the last several years — we have not come up with a balanced housing program which will keep these costs within some sort of reasonable level. I see the escalation of land values, for example, that are just completely unreasonable. It seems to me, Mr.

Speaker, that the final, horrible, grim reality is that for the middle-income earner, and certainly for low-income earners, the dream of buying a home of their own is an increasingly more distant objective. So, Mr. Speaker, what can we do in the meantime? One of the things we can do, in my view, is to ensure that there is basic tenant security and that before eviction takes place the onus is upon the landlord to have reasonable grounds for that eviction. I would just carefully hasten to add, Mr.

Speaker, that while I say the grim reality is that owning a home is a distant objective for lower- and middle-income people, espe­ cially in our two major cities, I think we have to reverse that. But I am aware, as most members should be, that you can't do that overnight. And we've had far too many reassuring speeches by members in this House about turning the corner on the vacancy rate in our two major cities. There's a good deal of scepticism, particularly among working people who now have to face 6 per cent increases in their wages.

They turn around, and they see that the rents are now being decontrolled, that the price of homes continues to rise. Even this year the estimated increase by the real estate board is 9 per cent — 3 per cent above the average salary increase for people working in the public sector. So a step we certainly have to take in the short run, at the very least, is to bring in tenant security legislation. Before closing my remarks and inviting the views and comments of other members of the Assembly, let me review, Mr.

Speaker, what other provinces are doing; in the province of Ontario, for example, which the last time I heard had a Tory government, although because they don't have a majority in the House they have to be a little more sensitive to people's needs than this Tory government in Alberta. That might be a good thing if it happened in this province. It would give our friends across the way a dose of humility, which I think would be a very pleasant thing for the people of Alberta and something welcomed, I'm sure, even by many Tories on the outside of the House.

Secretly, they would sort of look forward to a dose of humility in this Legislative Assembly. But in any event let's take a look at what other provinces are doing. In Ontario they've just complet­ ed a white paper on tenant protection — February 1978 as a matter of fact — and I'd just like to quote from it: It would have been difficult, if not impossible, to have effective rent review without taking some measures to ensure security of possession.

The Ontario legislation, as reviewed by the Law Research and Reform document, points out that there must be a written reason for eviction, and this must be approved by a judge. In the province of Quebec there is security of tenure legislation. People can be evicted, but only for specific reasons. And this I should point out, Mr. Speaker, was introduced long before the present gov­ ernment came to power in Quebec. In the province of Manitoba there's a rentalsman. There can be no evic­ tion without proper notice and a court order.

Finally in Surrey, B.C. — and if members have reviewed the Institute of Law Research and Reform, that particular document assesses the Surrey experiment — eviction can take place, but only for specific reasons. Mr. Speaker, the thrust of Bill 208 is essentially to set out clearly for tenants the rights to security of tenure unless there are rational and reasonable rea­ sons for eviction.

I think the onus, particularly at this time when our population is growing very rapidly, is upon this Legislature not to duck the issue, or to hope it will go away, or to assume that because of reassur­ ing statements made in the past that just haven't turned out to be true, somehow everything is magical­ ly going to solve itself, the market place will work even though we have a virtual no-vacancy rate in the province. That isn't good enough, Mr. Speaker.

If this government is going to prattle incessantly, as it does in the Legislature, about the responsibility of working people accepting less than the increased costs of living . . . Because we're talking about 6 or 7 per cent salary increases in the public sector, and the rate of inflation is going up by 8.7 per cent. You know that means a real loss of income. If we're going to say, tighten our belts, you know we've got to do this to fight inflation.

By the same token, it's incumbent upon the Legislature not to make those gratuitous comments and say: but when it comes to your accommodation, your utilities, your costs, of course

402 ALBERTA HANSARD March 30, 1978 that's a different rule book; we'll throw away the rule book there, and the sky's the limit. No, Mr. Speaker, if the government's credibility is going to be seriously entertained by the average working person in this province, we have to be pre­ pared to put some muscle into legislation to assure that the tenants have at least reasonable protection. That is the thrust behind Bill 208, and I would commend the bill to the members of the Assembly. MR. MUSGREAVE: Mr. Speaker, it's rather a chal­ lenge to rise to speak on this, particularly when the hon.

Member for Spirit River-Fairview is still in his seat. AN HON. MEMBER: Unusual. MR. MUSGREAVE: I am rather dismayed to listen to him take the approach he does. You know, when there's a surge of requirements — let's go and destroy everything that has provided housing for years in many jurisdictions, let's bring in controls, and let's, in effect, make an approach that is going to ensure housing is going to be inadequate — there's going to be all sorts of chicanery involved by various people, and who's going to suffer? The man at the low end, that's who's going to suffer.

The hon. member mentioned that the Alberta Insti­ tute of Law Research on residential tenancy recom­ mended — at least I understood him to say it recommended . . . But when I read the report, Mr. Speaker, I suggest to you that they discussed it, and they did not recommend for or against, but they did outline a possible approach that could be used. Mr. Speaker, I'd like to suggest to the hon. member, and to those who think along similar lines, that perhaps he should look at the market place.

I would suggest that one of the best guides for people con­ cerned with accommodation in the city of Calgary or Edmonton is to look at the classified columns in the daily newspaper. Never mind the surveys of CMHC, which are six months late and do not take into consideration new housing starts in that period. But look at the advertising columns in the daily newspapers. I recall about 15 years ago advertisements for dup­ lexes were about two inches in length; today they are about, I'd say, a column and a half.

I recall that 10 years ago 17 columns were for apartments to rent, and that's when the vacancy rate, as the hon. member was suggesting, was around 10 per cent. Companies were going broke in the city of Calgary. And now those particular buildings, which were mul- timillion dollar buildings, are owned by German in­ vestors who could bring over 10 cent dollars and buy up properties in our community. I suggest to him that if that's what he wants, I'm not one who's going to support him.

I agree there should be a vacancy and that 1 per cent is too tight, but back in 1945 they removed rent controls in the United States in most cities except New York. New York still has rent controls, and it's good for politicians who represent urban areas because there are few landlords and lots of tenants. In the case of New York, you have many black people come from the southern states; you have Puerto Ricans; it's a jumping-off place for them to make their start in America. And it makes good politics to have rent control.

But in the western state of California, where they don't have rent control and have all these colored people, they also have one of the best hous­ ing markets in the country because they have allowed the market place to provide for housing. Mr. Speaker, the hon. member mentioned that housing now in Edmonton runs around $65,000 for an average home. If you went back to 1968 and saw how much it cost to buy a home, as compared to a gross income, I would suggest that $65,000 today is not out of line in comparison with those figures of 20 years ago. MR. NOTLEY: Twice as much. MR.

MUSGREAVE: The regrettable thing is that today the young people — and they're aided and abetted by our socialist friends, regrettably, more than anyone else — are convinced they have a right to start off where their parents have arrived after 25 or 30 years of struggle. They have to have two cars or at least one car. They have to have color television, and they have to have a new home, and it has to have wall-to- wall broadloom, and it has to be furnished. If they don't have all these things they're being ill-treated, and, you know, they're being left out of things. I say this is nonsense, absolute nonsense. Mr.

Speaker, the member mentioned that housing is tight. Well, right now in the city of Calgary there is a 10 per cent vacancy factor in some of our senior citizens' housing projects. People are refusing to go into lodges. We have non-profit housing groups in the city of Calgary advertising for tenants, running advertisements in the Calgary Herald which cost one awful lot of money, Mr. Speaker. I suggest the hon. member speak to such developers as Abacus Cities, who have built hundreds of units in the city of Calgary in the last few years. They're running a vacancy rate of 5 to 6 per cent.

You can see them empty throughout the city. He mentions that the province of Quebec has security of tenure. Yes, they do. They also have the worst housing in Canada. In the city of Montreal they'd rather build the Olympics and do those kinds of things than provide housing for their citizens. They've had rent control since 1945, and prior to that. So I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. member take a look at some of the situations. Later on I'll touch on some other areas where they've had rent control, and they have the most deplorable housing for those people who are most in need.

But I would like to deal with the bill itself. Again, it just shows you how out of touch with reality our socialist friends are. In item 4(

a) he mentions "30 days or more". Mr. Speaker, you give a tena