Volum e 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT WEDNESDAY, MARCH 10, 1976 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER Number 27

Marc h 10, 19 76 The House met at 3:00 P.M. tlr. Speaker in the Chair. HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Tape 1030 PK - 1 It is my pleasant duty to welcome a large number of young men and young women to the various galleries today, One group from outside of the Province consists of twenty-five Grades X and XI students, a part of a Young Voyag~urs Group from Lindale High School in Ounger, Saskatchewan, and they are accompanied by Mrs. Kath('rine Turnbridge. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: From Woodland Elementary School in Dildo, Trinity Bay , sixty-five Grade V students accompanied by their teachers, Mr.

Cranford, J'r . Boone, and Mr . Cooper. And from Mobile Central High School thirty-one Grade X and XI students accompanied by their teacher, Miss Esther Moore. 'From the Whitbourne School for Boys, seventeen Grade VII, VIII and IX students accompanied by their teachers Mr. Reid and Hr. Nuhall. And from John Watkins Central High School in Hermitage, nineteen Grade XI students accompanied by their teachers Mr. Hayne Kendall, Mr. Albert . Loveless and Mr. Gus Janes.

Certainly to all of the young men and wamen from Sas Katchewan and from the various schools in the Province I am pleased to extend a welcome to the House of Assembly on behalf of all han. members, and certainly we all hope that your visit to the Legislature of the Province will be an interesting and an informative and enjoyable one. SOME RON. MEHBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: We also have a delegation from the Birchy Bay Town Conncil in the Chamber this afternoon, and on behalf of all hon. members I am pleased to welcome Mayor Randolph LeDrew and Councillors Alvin Mews and Otto Pope.

SOME HON • MEl1BERS : Hear, hear! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR. SPEAKER: The Han. Minister of Tourism. RON. T. V. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a short statement to clear up some confusion with regards to the Auditor General's Report ~704

Harch 10 , 1976 Tape 1030 PK - 2 Hr. llickey: so far as complimentary licences are concerned. The Auditor General refers to complimentary licences which is covered under Regulation 7 of The ~ildlife Regulations. The Auditor General for one reason or another does not point out that under The Wildlife Act the mini ster has authority to use whatever means or methods to encoura s e, to provide incentive for the proper management of wildlife in the Province, and to provide any incentives for the collection of stati s tical data. 2705

!>'arch 1'1, 1C17fi. HR. ITICKEY: Tape 1031 RH - 1 The impression is left hy the comments of the Auditor General that some 112 - this is the number at least, 112 - licenses, while not stated in number, the impression is left that those licenses were iust issued by the minister to this one, that one or anyone who came along.

I wish to correct that impression by statinf, that 112 comnlimentary licenses were issue .d to people throug:'llout the Province whose names t~ere drar..m and this was done to provide the incentive to have hunters send in the data with regarcls to the ldll or the lack of kill as a result of their having a license. Ml H0~!. ' ·1EMRER : What was the result? HR. HICKEY: Pardon? AN !TON. M.EMP,J\R: A sort of half - HR. HICKF.Y: Yes, I believe so. I am not quite sure., It was before my taking over the ministry as such. But I am assured by my staff that there is nothing unusual about this.

Prior to this system there was a system whereby people who did not send in this data were penalized by being required to pay an additional five dollars fortheir license the following year. I wish to point out that the usual number of I believe twenty-one were issued to the diplomatic corps or to V.I. P 1 s. The 112 licenses that were issued in 1~74,as I have stated.were issued for the purposes as indicated. I wish to point out to the House that indeed in 1975 the same practice was adhered to and probably we will feel the wrath of the Auditor General again next year.

"fuen it was brought to our attention it was too late, that the complimentary licenses for 1975 indeed had been issued. I do want to say, Mr. Speaker, that we acknowledge that the Auditor General is correct inasmuch as the amount of $1,fi80 indeed should appear as revenue. The method of correction can only be,of course,that the department will have to transfer this amount of money from one subhead to the appropriate subhead so that indeed it shows up as revenue. I give the House assurances that from now on this will he done. HR.

NEARY: Were any ~iven in appreciation at the Gander Lodge where the mana~er of the r.ander Lodp,e on the Gander River is - 2706

Harc'h 1n, l'l76. Tape 1031 RH - 2 ~fR . HIC:KJ\Y: If there were any licenses other than the ones I have covered, l!r. SpeaJ.;er, thev were issued to V.I. P. s. I am sure that everyone in the Province realizes that this system is as oln as time. J do not think anyhody would tvant that changed. MR. SMALLWOOD: Hr. Speaker, did not the Auditor General,or one of his officers at his direction,inform himself of the explanation that the minister has ;ust given? Does he repeat that in his report? I have only read part of the report up to date. Just left it at that? !·'!.R. HICKEY: Hell, Hr.

Speaker, that is what I find rather difficult to understand. Indeed my Deputy Minister informs me quite categorically thRt he personally explained the system, gave a full explanation in rlPtaH to the J'.uditor General and pointed out that if this were to he reported in hi.s report as such, in the form that it is here, that it would leave t'he wronp impression ann create the wrong impression. lle gave the explanation,and my Deputy and I, indeed all my staff; are as surprised as anyhody else to find that it is contained in this report in the manner in wh:ic'h it ts. 11R.

NEARY: Is it tabled in this report who got the licenses1 !IR. J. NOLAN: Hr. Speaker, does the hon. minister intend to table the names of all people who had licenses, complimentary licenses,for hunting, plus the names of those licenses complimentary for hunting in the Gander lodp;e? AN liON . NJ:MRF.R : That is out of order, is it not? ~~R . NOLAN: It is a mere question in reference to the statements the minister made. HR. LUNDRIGAN: Is it not to be called in the 0uestion Period,that is all. l'r.. Nni.AN: T am merely askinv, the minister if he intends to do this. He is the one lv'ho brought it up and rightly so.

I compliment the minister. ~ut the fact is that in connection with this apparently there are references, as the minister knows,in weakness in the system of the internal control that is nentioned 2707

~<arch 10, 1971i Tape No. 1032 NM- 1 MT!.

NOLAN: in tqe Auditor General's Report,and perhaps the minister might now agree to, if there are weaknesses there,~~hich he has ment:l.oned, Hhat changes are going to come about, will he table the names of those, By the way in reference to one other point, and I mention this not to attempt to embarrass the minister,because in fact if h~ <.ranted to check the records he ~.;rould find in reference to your department where some the anniversary medals '~ere presented complimentary, it so happens I am one of the ones who received it because I vas invited to be a judge in Heritage 1974,I believe it was, which ••as, in my opinion, a magnificent project of the p,overnment which encouraged students from all over Newfoundland to send in essays, slides, video tapes, an art display, an incredibly fine project.

Every dollar you spent on it, in my opinion, ~r.

Speaker, is worth it.And I also said at the time publicly, although I was not in the House, that I had hoped that this project,where so many of the young people were involved,would be on some kind of permanent disply so that not only those of us who were judges or close to the thing might have an opportunity to see it, but that more of Ne .. •foundland could see it, I think that the minister and the government should be very, very proud of this and I was presented with one of those medals, But again I ask, are you prepared to table the names of all those who received one of those medals plus the licences and so on? llR .

SPEAKER: '!'he hon. ~1 inister of Tourism. HP, Rir.KEY: ~ !r. Speaker, I have no objections in tabling the list. T simply want to point out as a qualification to that statement that my only fear would be that I would be setting a dangerous precedent. T do not know if I am expected,or any minister is expected,to table documents just because somebody from the outside, radio stations or newspapers, imply that there is something wrong.

Surely we have not reached a time when a minister gives an explanation as minister in th:l.s House, the people's Rouse, surely he is accountable for what he says 7 and surely we have not reached a stage where one has to prove their innocence as opposed to a person being proved guilty. 2708

Harch 10, 1976 Tape No. 1032 ID' - 2 ~ . HICKEY: I can assure the House, and I will certainly take the question under advisement, I am not trying to side-step the han. member's question. I will consult my colleagues. I can essure this House, I have gone over the names, I have discussed this matter with my deputy in detail. He assures me that not one single licence in that particular year, was issued in any wrong way, that they were all proper and they were all covered under this and the others were covered under the VIP or diplomatic corps. One further comment, with regards to the medals, Mr.

Speaker, they are not necessarily, I am not responsible, I am not the responsible minister as such but the medals or the medallions that were given out,I suspect,were given out by - some were given out by me, some were probably given out by my predecessor and possibly it is proper that I give the explanation, even though I am not the responsible minister who had custody of those items. The Auditor General makes reference to this and he makes reference to civil servants and to other people, and my explanation is - and I do appreciate the remarks made by the member for Conception Bay South (~r.

Nolan)-to my knowledge, and I have consulted again my staff on this matter, no medallion was issued to anyone except in two categories; one - VIP or special people outside the Province, such as if a minister was indeed visiting on business, as a proper and an appropriate presentation on behalf of the Province,; secondly - to civil servants, special civil servants who played a special role in the celebration activities and to other people who were totally involved in those celebrations. Surely, ~ ' r. Speaker, there is nothing wrong with that.

And as I indicated before, it is part of the function of my department, indeed ·~e purchase items to give to people as a token of appreciation sometimes for services rendered, or indeed as a souvenir to people who visit the Province. ~!?... SPEAKER: The han. member for Twillingate. -" !! • S 'ALLWf)(ln : ~r. Speaker, I wonder 2709

March 10, 1976 Tape no. 1033 Page Mr. Smallwood: in connection with the medallion celebrating Newfoundland's Twe~ty-fifth Anniversary of Confederation, would it be possible for the minister to let me have a look at one of them? I would like to, at least, have a look at one. MR. ROBERTS: The hon. gentleman did not get one? MR. SMALLWOOD: No. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, can I assume that the hon. member has not received one? MR. SMALLWOOD: No; but I would like to look at one. }IR.. HICKEY: May I assure him that he will be presented with one this afternoon. I will personally see to it.

I am awfully sorry that he has not received one, Your Honour, and certainly he is a most fitting person to receive one. MR. SMALLWOOD: No flattery. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HICKEY: It will be a pleasure. MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: }!r, Speaker, I wonder if I could follow up with the hon. minister on one more point which may not be relevant. MR. WELLS: A point of order. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order has been raised. MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I think we have allowed a certain degree of latitude here.

This,after all,was a time for statements by a minister, which leaders of parties or their representatives are entitled to comment upon. But this, Mr. Speaker, would be to turn this into a question period, and I suggest would be entirely out of order. MR. ROBERTS: To that point of order, if I might, Mr. Speaker: The hon. gentleman from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) was twice permitted and twice asked a question, one of them before the gentleman from Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan), who was speaking in my behalf. The hon. the minister has been allowed to make not 2710

March 10, 1976 Tape no. 1033 Page 2 - mw Mr. Roberts . merely a ministerial statement, which is his right under the rules of this House, but has made two or three separate and very lengthy coruments upon it. I would suggest if the rule has been breached - and I am not submitting that it has not been breached - if the rule has been breached, it has been well-breached before my colleague from Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan) rose to ask a secondary question. I submit he should be allowed exactly the same privileges and courtesy as the gentleman from Twillingate (Mr.

Smallwood), or for that matter the gentleman from St. John's East ,Extern (Mr. Hickey), the Minister of Tourism. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: On that point of order. I think the practice in this House is quite well summarized in Beauchesne,

section 91: "When a minister makes a statement on government poH.cy or ministerial administration, either under routine proceedings,between two orders of the day or shortly before the adjournment of the House, it is now firmly established that the Leader of the Opposition or the Chiefs of recognized groups are entitled to ask explanations and make a few remarks, but no debate is then allowed under any Standing Order ." Certainly if an hon. member is allowed to ask for explanations,then the minister who made the statement must be allowed to answer that question,so that implies that answers to the question for expla·nations is allowed.

It has been the usual practice that there is only one entry, if one wishes to put it that way, from any hon. member who is making these brief remarks or asking a question. That has been the usual . practice. I would not be prepared to make a ruling whether that is necessarily so or not, whether the remarks, or requests for explanations have to be done once or can in fact be done with two series of either remarks or explanations. That would be something which I would want to reserve an opinion on. 2711

March 10, 1976 Tape no. 1033 Page 3 Mr. Speaker. Since, however, the one hon. gentleman has on two occasions asked for explanations, then I will permit the hon. member for Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan) one further opportunity for a brief comment or the asking for explanation and then the minister an opportunity to make the reply. MR. NEARY: Point of order, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order has been raised. MR. NEARY: Do I understand, Your Honour, quoting from Beauchesne to say that only the Chiefs of recognized groups in this hon. House could - MR. SPEAKER: Or their representative. MR.

NEARY: No, Your Honour, did not say,'or your representative! Your Honour just merely quoted. Maybe, Your Honour, omitted~a part of the paragraph he quoted from. But I understood Your Honour to say, 'chiefs of recognized groups in the House,' which means the Leader of the official Opposition and the Leader of the Liberal Reform Party or the hon. the Premier. I have been barred on a number of occasions, Sir, from asking questions or to make a few comments on ministerial statements.

I consider myself to be more of a chief of a recognized group than the individuals who have been permitted to ask questions, so I would like to get a ruling from Your Honour on that particular matter. MR. SPEAKER: The ruling is entirely clear. I read from Beauchesne and did not add anything.

However, the point of order raised by the hon. member, the answer to that is quite clear, and it has been stated certainly in this session on more than one occasion - I do not know how many occasions - on more than one occasion, and that is that in thisLegislature the right of the Leader of the Opposition,or the leader of a recognized group, and group there means, parliamentary group, a caucus, more than one person, that 2712

1-farch 10, 1976 Tape 1034 IB-1 ~!JL SPEAKE!': that right may he ceded to another bon. member speaking on behalf of that leader. The two points in a sense raised there are,number one, whether a pe_rson who is not the leader of the group in this legislature may comment, and the answer is no. The second point is whether an hon. member '~ho is not the leader of a group but speak:! .ng on behalf of such a person may exercise that right on behalf of his leader, and the answer is yes. ~~.

NEARY: Further to that point of order, Sir, could Your Honour 0uote ~e the citat:!on from Reauchesne or the Standing Orders of this House covering that parti.cular situation? Yll. SPEAKEP: To clarify the matter, the section (91) of Beauchesne which I read just a few minutes ago clarifies and states explicitly the situation as :It exists in the House of Commons and which is, as far as it goes,the practice in this House.

Our Hansard of, I could not say vrhat date offhand but ~dthin the first t~o..a or three days of ~he opening of the legislature; indeed, I believe, the first clay after the Speech Frow the Throne, then the ruling was marle that an bon. wember who was not the leader of a recognizecl parliamentary group or who was not speaking on behalf of such a person did not hftve the rip.ht to comment or to ask for explanations after a Min.isterial statement. That ,,,ill be found in the J1ansarc1, I am quite sure, of the second day of this session. r'l'. ~EAI'.Y: 1Yell we broke our own rules then, I~r. Speaker. MP.

SPEft~R: 0rder, please: The bon. member for Conception Bay South. ~. NOLN : Mr. Speaker,! am going to forego the observation I had because it is a question that can tva.i.t for the quest:fon period. I merely remlnd the hon. member for St. .John's South (Dr. r.oJlins) that 'I-re are very much auare -yes, St. John's South:or K:!lbr:!de (l•r. Hells) I am sorry - that I am sure he can add up t'l-ro as •'ell as the hon, J.eader of the Opposition. 2713

Yarch 10, 1976 Tape 1034 IB-2 ~'R. SPEAKEl': Order, please! MR. NOLAN: This is the second time he has presented us with doing something like this. ~'R. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! This has very little to do - !'R. NOLAN: And we will remember it over here. 1-'B. SPEAKEP.: - with the ministerial statement. ~W • SPEAKEl' : 1'1'. ROBERTS; PRESENTING PETITIONS: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Thank you. ~'r.

Speaker, I ask leave to present a petition which whi]e it has not been signed by anything like the numbers of people who have signed the several petitions Which have been presented in respect of electricity rates, this petition I submit is every bit as important and every bit as urgent as the ones which have been presented earlier in this session including the ones about electricity rates. The petition, ~r.

Speaker, is signed by approximately 100 of the men at Come Hy Chance who will be laid off, some of them heginning this coming Friday,I believe,and the rest of them in a period of weeks as the refinery operation closes down as it is now supposed to do. These men are members of the Oil, Chemical and Atomic Harkers International tTnion Local 9908,which is the big local at Come By Chance, the local which represents most of the employees employed there at that time. The prayer of the petition, Mr.

Speaker, is as follows: ~~~ole, the undersigned, employees of the Come By Chance oil refinery, hereby petition government to take action to alleviate the severe hardship which will be caused our families by the sudden temination of our employment at the refinery. We ask (1) that government immediately proclaim the Termination of Employment Act, 1973; (2) in the alternative 1 that government enact special legislation to compel Provincial Refining Company Limited to give us longer notice of termination than the two weeks notice we have received; 2714.

••arch 10, 1976 Tnpe 1034 IB-3 ~fT'. l'ClBErTS: (3) in the f urther alternative , that gove~n t provid e fo r severence pay out of government funds to be recovered upon sale of the re finery 1 11 • T ~~y say it is a very weJJ-w~rced pe tit ion , Sir , a nd 1 cannot claim the cretlit fo r that- ·· Such action by government will F;ive us time ;• the petition goes on," to reorr,llllize our lives and it li<'ill also to keep a corps of traine~ employees avajlabJe for a longe r period to ensure fast reopeninr, of the refinery shou l d 11 huyer he folmd . 2715

March 10, 1976, Tape 1035, Page 1 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a word or two in sunport of t~e petition. As the petition mentions,in 1973

an act was enacted by the Legislature to require that an employer laying off a number of men as large as the number involved at Come By Chance, more than 500, would have to give those employees sixteen weeks notice. The act has never been proclaimed. It was subject to proclamation and as of the most recent knowledge which I have,which was yesterday - the Cabinet may conceivably have acted this morning on it or last evening - but the Cabinet have not proclaimed this act. It is not yet in force.

If it had been in force it would certainly have required that the men at Come By Chance,who have been given two weeks notice only,would have received sixteen weeks - PREMIER MOORF.S: That is not true. }ffi. ROBERTS: The Premier says it is not true. I am told that legal advice has been sought and taken to the effect that if the act had been in force it would have required that the employers at Come By Chance give their men sixteen weeks notice. That may not be - PREMIER MOORES: The Bankruptcy Act supercedes it. MR. ROBERTS: I am sorry? PREMIER MOORES: The Bankruptcy Act supercedes it.' MR.

ROBERTS: The hon. gentleman says the Bankruptcy Act supercedes. I do not wish to enter into a legal debate at this point 0 I would simply say that my understanding is that legal advice has been sought and that that is the opinion which these men have been given. It may or may not be the correct opinion, Equally, the opinion expressed by the Premier may or may not be the correct opinion.

The alternatives in the petitiontn any event 1are that if the act is not effective - and I would raise 'the question whether it could be effective if proclaimed today,given the fact the notice has already been given these men - that special legislation be enacted by this house to enter into it. I think we could have an interesting legal argument whether the Bankruptcy Act has · paramountcy over the property and civil rights 2716

March 10, 1<176, Tane 1035, page 2 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: provisions. It would be a very interesting point in constitutional law indeed. The fact remains, Mr. Speaker, that these men have seen their jobs wiped out with two weeks notice. Some of them may be hired back by the receiver in connection with the winding up, the winding down of the refinery but the majority of them have been given two ~•eeks notice and that is all they will get.

They are not receiving the benefits of the public policy which was expressed by this Legislature in the legislation,and they have, I believe they have - this was the request they made of the Premier when they met with him, a group of men from Come By Chance, Thursday or Friday of last week - they have not to my knowledge received any reply as of now. They have now asked that this petition be brought before the house, Sir, and that it be given the very urgent and very serious consideration it merits. It is urgent, Mr. Speaker. These men will be laid off on Friday afternoon, forty-eight hours from now.

I present the petition, Mr. Speaker, and I do so with the strongest of support. I think these men have a just cause. I think they have a cause to claim the protection of the public policy which has been proclaimed as the pol1cy of this land in the act passed by this House three years ago. That act has not been proclaimed. The sorrow and the shame of it is that the fact that.that act has not been proclaimed apparently will cost these men the notice period or the fourteen weeks severance pay which otherwise they would have received.

That being so, Sir, I ask the government to do what they can and I say that we on this side of the house, Mr. Speaker, are ready to do what we can in the legislative sense to ensure that these men, Mr. Speaker, get the just treatment they deserve. MR. SPEAKFR: 11R. CROSBIE: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. Mr. Speaker, we did hear yesterday that certain members of the npposition had gone down to the Come By Chance area and, of course, the petition that is presented here today is the r~sult of that fishing expedition. 2717

March 10, 1976, '!'ape 1035, Page 3- apb MR, CROSBIE: The position is that the Termination of Em,ployme.nt Act the hon. gentleman refers to has be.en passed by this house but never proclaimed. If the Act were proclaimed it would provide that where on an ()ccasion when over 500 employees were terminated by the shutting down of an industry there should be sixte~ weeks termination pay,and in the eyent, I think .it is, that over foW: hundred were laid off there ·would be twelve weeks provided for and sa on. Now, Mr. Speaker, this i~;~ not the case, of course, where an industry is te.rminating on any voluntary basis.

This is a case, unfQ't"tunately, where an ep.terpri!fe o.r an industry is being terminated through action taken by creditors of the company through the Bankruptcy legislation on the grounds that the e~any involved is insolvent. It is not a voluntary termination by the company of any of their employees and therefore, even if thi~;~ legislation were in effect, if it ha:d been proclaimed, Mr.

Speaker, it would not apply to thl.s . situation which is governed by the Bank-ruptcy: ·legislation of the Parliament Qf Canada which provides what amount of wages and what circumstance are a preferred claim in a bankrUptcy. 2718

Tape 11)36 Rll - 1 MR. CROSBIE: Actually a notice of termination of empJ oyment ~•as r,tven by Provincial l'.efininp: Company T.imiten for the employees concerned, not by the interim receiver.. Rut the interim receiver is going to re-employ some 200 after that notice is effective to work in the temporary, we hope, closing clown of the oil refinery. The others are receivinp; two weeks notice and their vacation pay. Tf they are entitled to any more than that thev will certainly receive it from the interim receiver.

The government of this Province has no power over the interim receiver to order him to pay mnre than he is legally ohlip;ated to pay. The interim receiver is acting on hehalf of all the creditors of the company and he has his responsibi] ity to tc1<0-rn and to the laws of the land. Fe has his responsibility under the first mortgage, as receiver under that the first mortgagee; under the <'lc:>henture on the inventory to the holder of the debenture on the inventory, !\taka;and under the second mortgage to the Government of Newfoundland.

He, the receiver, will have to do whatever the law requires him to do or whatever other arrangement he finds fair and equitable to enter into in th<> situa~ion which ~muld have to be approved by the creditors generally. The bankruptcy order is made. Mr. Speaker, the Government of Newfoundland can hardly intervene in this situation and dictate that this insolvent corporation, if it is insolvent, should pay sixteen weeks wages to its employees,or twelve weeks or whatever. Pe have no jurisdiction over bankruptcy whatsoever. That is clearly 1 under the R.N.A. Act~in the province of the Parliament of Canada.

The only thing that this government could do would be to act entirely apart from legislation anrl agree on a payment that should be made entirely apart from the law a ]together or the ri.ghts of the employer- employees comp] etely apart altogether from their rip,hts under the lav or otherwise. This government cannot do that. This bankruptcy, if it is a bankruptcy, differs only from other hantruptcies by the number of people involved. There is absolutely no <'lifference in orincinle.

I do not know the exact numher of bankruptcies in Newfoundland or Canada during the past year but certainly there have been a number of others that have also involved workers in those particular 2719

~farch 1'1, l<J7~. MR. CROSBIE: Tape 11)31) RH - 2 enterprises. It may affect in some of them only ten or twenty. In others it may be fifty or sixty. The only difference in this case,from that point of vi.ew,is the number involvecl which is some 41l4.

If the government were to intervene here and say that the Province of Newfoundland will pay sixteen weeks wages to these men,or twelve weeks wages,could there be any reason in right or justice why we would not have to say in every bankruptcy, in every case of bankruptcy in the Province that the Province would also pay sixteen weeks or twelve weeks pay to the people involved. That is obviously a completely untenable position. MR. SM"AU.WOOD : insolvency? ~m. CROSBIE: Hight that not depend on who had really cause the The insolvency of this corporation, Mr.

Speaker, whatever the causes are, H is the responsibility of the management and the owners of P.R.C. and N.R.C. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, the government cannot accede to the request contained in this petition. We assure that the employees involveil will be treated as fairly as possible by the receiver. But the r,overnment cannot agree that the government should provide sixteen weeks wages in this situation,nor can the government pass legislation to enforce it on the receiver. That is a matter entirely within the constitutional jurisdiction and responsibility of the Government of Canda. HR. SPEAKER: !!R. S.

NEARY: The hon. member for LaPoile. ~lr. Speaker, I rise to support the prayer of the petition presented by the Leader of the Opposition. It would be very unfair indeed, Sir, for any hon. member in this hon. House to imply that the delegation that went to Come By C!J.ance yesterday afternoon went down to solicit this petition. I no not think that is so, Sir. I think we are all members of this hrn. Jlouse,very concerned about the workers at Come By Chance who are going to he laid off on "Friday. I know I have had a number of 11~1one calls, vj sitations from employees in the refinery.

I have had a number of letters. I 11arl a visit from the President of the union down there, and a delegation pointinp. out to me, Sir, the serious repercussions 2720

Tape 1'136 l'.H - 3 t~nt these layoffs are <(Oing to have on '~orkers, especially those who reJocaterl in the area and Quilt new homes ann committed themselves to mortgages for t1~enty, t'"enty-five years,anrl Hho have boup,ht 2721

... March 10, 1976 Tape No. 1037 NM- 1 }ffi. NEARY: new cars and paying installments on their cars, and on their furniture and so forth. It is really heartbreaking, Sir, to hear some of the tragic stories that are being told about the workers in the Come By Chance oil refinery who will now find themselves in a most difficult financial position.

And I believe, Sir, that the government of this Province, having more than just a passing intere_st in the oil refinery- we have the second mortgage on that refinery to the tune of $42 million- so therefore it is not like an ordinary bankruptcy and it would not be fair, Sir, to involve the workers in a long legal wrangle in the court. I think this House, S1r, has the pO"I·rer.

We cannot do anything about The Termination of Employment Act, but as the Leader of the Opposition said, Sir, this House has the power to pay the employees of the Come By Chance oil refinery sixteen weeks pay,or six months pay for that matter and hold it in abeyance until such time as the oil refinery goes back in operation or is sold and then the money can be recovered for the general revenue of the Province. So I think, Sir, it is an. excellent sup,gestion and I would certainly vote in favour of any special piece of legislation brought into this ho.n.

House to give the workers of the Come By Chance oil refinery who are going to be terminated on Friday, to give them at least six months pay in lieu of notice. ~~. SPEAKER: The hon. memb~r for Burgee- Bay d'Espoir. MR. SOO!ONS: ~'r. Speaker, I rise to support the petition presented by my colleage the Leader of the Opposition. In reference to what the Minister of Hines has said,! was one of the persons in the area yesterday. I do not think it is fair to say we solicited.

We advised on this particular matter because the men are very frustrated as to how they can have this matter properly aired at this particular point in time while there is still time. So I make no apologies to the House or to the public for saying that I certainly advised them to take this course of action,but first to consult their lawyer. 2722

11arch 10, 197fi Tape No. 1037 ID~ - 2 HR. SDll-'0!-lS: I understand they have as their lawyer a very eminent legal head, a gentleman who served in this administration, the government administration, and I do not know whether they consulted the lawyer or what the advice was but I can only presume they did. But let it be kno~vn that the men once again have affixed their signatures, not out of a force but out of a real concern for their own welfare and the welfare of their families. Nmv, 1'r.

Speaker, in supporting the petition let me say that it is a moot point indeed '"hich the minister raises insofar as the matter of bankruptcy is concerned. As of today the PRC is not bankrupt. That has yet to be determined. That company has not heen adjudged bankrupt at this particular point. What has happened. Mr. Speaker, insofar as the implication of this petition is concerned, is that the receivers have taken certain initiatives including the termination of employment of 500 or so employees.

That is all that has happened which bears on the petition 1that a number of men, 500 or so of them,have received notice of termination. The operation has not been adjudged bankrupt at this point in time. t•r. Speaker, the legislation is on the books though not proclaimed. The legislation is there from 1973 and for a very good reason, l'r. Speaker, because the present Hinister of Mines and Energy,when he was in opposition,saw the need. He saw the need, ~'r.

Speaker, in particular as a result of a development at Gull Bridge mines in the Green Bay area when eighty-five men were laid off in somewhat similar circumstances. And he at that time indicated to the public that he would take initiatives to have such legislation brought in. I am glad he did, Hr. Speaker. I am very glad he did. And I commend him for it, whatever part he had in it. ~n1at disturbs me today and disturbs every man and woman at Come By Chance involved in this termination of employment is that the final step was not taken insofar as this legislation was concerned , 2723

:'arch l(l, 1975 Tape No . 1037 NM- 3 tm. S~DNS : and while we have a piece of paper called The Terminat~on of ~mployment Act, 1973, the fact of the matter is it still requires an Order-in-council, a Proclamation to give it legal effect. And one can only aek , and in proper time we shall, one can only ask why, for what reason that legislation was never proclaimed particularly in view of the stated concern of the Minister of ~~~nes and Energy on the matter in relation to a group of eighty-five men, How much greater ought to be hie concern now, Mr .

Speake r, on behalf of more than 500 men and women who suddenly, with only two weeks notice, have,what they thought to be secure and permanent employment, cut off shor t with just a couple of weeks notice 1 2724

March 10, 1976 Tape no. 1038 Page 1 - mw Mr. Simmons. I see in the prayer of the petition a solution, a partial solution to another concern that has been expressed by the Premier and by many of us in addressing ourselves to the unfortunate turn of events at Come By Chance. We have all expressed concern about the possible dispersal of the skilled work force at Come By Chance. The prayer of this petition,if answered, if the legislation were proclaimed or a special act brought in, special legislation introduced and passed, that set of events, Mr.

Speaker, would at least, in the interim, slow down the dispersal already taking place, the dispersal of a very highly skilled work force second to none in the Province, Mr. Speaker, and comparable to most across this nation. Mr. Speaker, I am disappointed to hear the Minister of Mines indicate that the government does not empathize with this particular problem. Mr. Speaker, are they completely without heart? Do they not understand the problem at all? Are they cold, unrelenting, or will they not once again, Mr. Speaker, hear the prayer of this particular petition, a petition which simply asks, Mr.

Speaker, that the men and women of Come By Chance be given the kind of justice they deserve. The Minister of Mines himself three full years ago, five full years ago, in reference to Gull Bri~ge mines,admitted it was only fair in those circumstances where people were given termination of employment with only a couple of weeks notice. Mr. Speaker, the solution is fairly simple. The solution is to proclaim this act, if indeed it can have affect now in view of the fact that the notices have gone out. And if not, as my colleague, the Leader of the Opposition has said, and as my friend from LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) has indicated, the solution then is to introduce special legislation. And I for one will agree to consent to have the matter debated,a~l three readings in the same sitting if that is what is required,to get it through in time. I know I speak for my colleagues in the official 2725

March 10, 1976 Tape no. 1038 Page 2 ME. Simmons. Opposition when I say that we are most anxious to ensure that the mert and women of Come By Chance are not put through any additional hardships as a result of the severe blow that has been struck to them in the last week or so. They are already facing some pretty severe problems as a result of mortgage commitments, etc., a matter I will not pursue further. But, Mr.

Speaker, why in addition to that, if we have it in our hands as legislators to do something about their present problem insofar as termination of employment is concerned,· why in the name of goodness does the Minister of Mines and the Government House Leader and the Premier insist on sitting there and doing nothing. It boggles me, it is beyond me, and I appeal to them once again, Mr. Speaker, to accept the prayer of this petition, bring in the legislation, proclaim what is,or else bring in a special act, and we shall give it our hearty endorsation. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear. h~~r: MR. SPEAKER: The bon.

Minister without Portfolio. MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, with respect to the petition I want to clear up one or two things. This whole business of Come By Chance is a serious matter, and yet we are given the spectacle in this House of the Opposition standing up and trying to make it appear that the government has no concern - MR. ROBERTS: Point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order has been raised. MR. ROBERTS: The hon. gentleman from Kilbride (Mr. Wells), who should know better is obviously and - in fact, not is about ~o, has attempted to question the motives of gentlemen opposite from hi;.

Sir,he is not entitled to do that by the rules of this House, by the courtesy of debate,or by the dignity and decency of a gentleman. 2726

Marcy 10, 1976 Tape no. 1038 Page 3- mw Mr. Roberts. Sir, let him state his points without getting on the tack he is on, Sir. He has no right to question the motives of any ·member of this House, Sir. PREMIER MOOP.ES : MR. SPEAKEP : MR. \mLLS: 1-lhy did you not interrupt Roger? The hon. Minister without Portfolio. To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. There was no questioning of motives. It was just a statement of what the member over there or the members are trying to do. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. WELLS: Their motives can be left to somebody else to judge, SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! A .. point of order has been brought up. In my opinion there is a difference of opinion between two hon. members. I am not aware that there was any impugning of motives . I regard the matter as a difference of opinion. The hon. Minister without Portfolio, MR. WELLS: The position is, Mr. Speaker, that the government is absolutely concerned about the whole situation in Come By Chance as the government has shown throughout this by its actions and its approach toward the people who were involved. Now, Mr.

Speaker, we remember that the other afternoon men from Come By Chance came. They met with members of the Cabinet and with the Premier, and the Premier and t1vo or three members !if the Cabinet absented themselves from the House in the afternoon so that they could go through the whole matter~ And the government at that time said to these employees at Come By Chance that they would make available legal advice which was done, And as one of the members said, Mr. Leo Barry was chosen by them as their solicitor, and he has given them advice. 2727

March 10, 1976 Tape 1039 PK- 1 MR. ROBERTS: Whet advice did he give them? MR. WELLS: Well,you will have to ask them,surely,what advice he gave them. MR. ROBERTS: Will the hon. gentleman allow us to disclose the letter Mr. !.eo Barry wrote? MR. \-TELLS: It is nothing to do with the hon. gentleman if whoever makes public the advice. But the point is, Mr. Speaker, The Termination of Employment Act,and whether it is proclaimed or not,has nothing to do with this situation.

And that is why it seems so odd that one uses words to explain things in this House of Assembly, but the people who are pushing another point of view go on as if the words were not said or the position was not clear. If that act had been proclaimed a month ago,whether it had been proclaimed today or tomorrow would make no difference because this is a bankruptcy, not the phasing out and closing down of an industry such as the steel mill out at Octagon, the steel plant. Two different things.

And the laws of bankruptcy in Canada are clear, and the trustee has his - or the receiver has his obligation under the law to the people for whom he is acting as receiver, and if a bankruptcy is declared he has the obligation to the court itself that creates that role. So .the pGint is that to talk about proclamation of that act is sheer, utter nonsense, Mr. Speaker, because it gives the people who are concerned and caught in this serious situation the feeling that a simple proclamation of

an act would clear everything up, and the government 1 because it is either too stupid or too cold or too hard-hearted or too senseless will not do it. Now I want to put the end to that piece of nonsense right here and now, Hr. Speaker. The point is - AN liON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. \ffiLLS: - that the law is very clear on this question, and the law unfortunately provides in all of its ramifications that this severance pay cannot be paid because this is a bankruptcy. And I suspect the trustee, and we will use every influence we can as a 272·8

Harch 10, 1976 Tape 1039 PK - 2 ~1r. Wells: government with the trustee to urge him to pay the money to the persons who are put off work, but we know nonetheless that it is highly unlikely that he can de it because he is bound by the law and he is bound also by the interest of the creditors whom he is caused to represent. And I do not know how people like Ataka who were down close to $300 million,or the local Newfoundland companies who are down anywhere from a few hundred dollars to several hundred thousand dollars or $1 million would feel about it.

I would hope that they would have sympathy for the people who are working there. But, you know, we have no guarantee,nor do we have any control over what would be done there. So let us expose what has been suggested for what it is , Mr. Speaker. What the hon. members on the other side are saying is that ''e as a House of Assembly should take something between $600,000~as a low,and possibly $1.5 million as a high,of money of the taxpayers of this Province and hand it over to another group of citizens of this Province.

Now that would be an astonishing thing, much as I sympathize, much as we sympathize with the people at Come By Chance and will do everything that is legitimate and proper to assist, and that means setting up a task force, and everything else that we can do. It means that we as a government will find out everything we can on a moratorium 0n payments of various kinds which people have to meet.

But to simply take noney and give it to another group of people would obligate the government in every situation whether it was a bankruptcy or an insolvency to go and say,we are now going to take the taxpayers money and we are going to give it to this person for six weeks or twelve weeks or eight weeks or six months as the hon. member - MR. NEARY: ~IR. llELLS: And charge it back to the refinery. And charge it back to the refinery, charge it back to an insolvent institution - MR. NEARY: When it gets going again, MR.

WELLS: - so when a buyer comes along and he is going to buy it and take it over, you say, hold on now, you have got another nillion that the Government of Newfoundland paid to somebody and you add that to it. 2729

Marc h 10, 1976 MR. NE:All.Y : MR. WELLS: MR. NEARY: MR. WELLS: MR. NEARY: MR. WELLS: MR. ROBERTS: MR. WELLS:. Why not? Well why not? Why not? Tape 1039 Why not? Well I mean this - PK - 3 Maybe you intend to have a fire sale, I do not: know. No we intend - Is this not getting a little beyond the,reat. of - Maybe so. Maybe sp. But the han. gentleman brought it up, Mr·. Speaker, and it is irresponsible1 I suggest - SoME RON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! PREUIER MOORES: That is the word. Totally irresponsible. MR.

WELLS: Also what the hon. member - and nobody has suggested and with all of our symp'athy for the people of Come By Chance, SOME liON. MEMBEltS : Hear, hear! MR. WELLS: - the point is that the people of Come By Chance who t~ere put · off here, and I am not suggesting this :is the be-al1 and end-all but they are going to receive unemployment insurance. AN .RON. MEMBER: Let us pay them. PREMIER MOORES: l'olitically prostitution,in other words. 2730

!"arch 10, 1976 Tape 1040 ~'T' . WELLS: T think :It HCiu)cl be a shocking thing to ask people to hang around or to stay there for s:lx months in the hope that the reH.nery can be p,ot open in si.x Ir.onths. Th:ls is what has been suggested. I think it is n cruelty to thes~ people to suggest that they hang around as somebody din for six months - PREMIER }100RES: Until the facts are known, eh·~ - IB-1 1'1'. loffiLLS: - when we kno~1 - the facts are not clear - but ~ve know or arparent)y there is work to be done even on that refinery to put it right ~.mich will take longer than six months 1"'.

NEARY: Your leader says :It could be open :l.n six months minimum,or a year and a half. It is not a question of parts left out it is a question of the truth. The truth, Mr. Speaker, the truth now does not seem to have any point in this legislature. YT'. r.NISDIE : You have got to twist things. ~]eveens,sJ:Itherinp c'own! 1-"R. 1JEILS: ~o I th:l.nk this ~1ill be debated tomorrow afternoon in the late show but I think the record ought to be marle straight and clear. Yl' . ~P!'.AR'E '~'. : The hon. member for Hindsor-Buchans. ''r.

Speaker, I rise in support of the prayer of the pet:ltion and I would like to arlm:lt, I "muld say now that I was one of the members of the Opposition that went to Come By Chance,and I can assure the 1~in:lster of Energy I did not go on a fishing expeclition. I went because I accept some of the responsibil:l.ty t hat has been given to me in this caucus, on a familarizat:lon trip. SOME RON. MEMBEP : Oh, oh! ~IT'. P.O!JEJlTS: He cared enough to go unlike the minister. ''l'. FLI GHT: lo'I' O~T ~ l'r. Speaker, tf'r. Speaker - ~'1' SPEA.'<E.,. : Order, please! Order, please! ~"'- · FLI(';JlT: Yr.

Speaker, it appears to me that suddenly there has bP.en a weaJ th of knm-7ledr.:e made available to the government because - 2731

?'arch HJ, l<J76 '!'ape 1040 IB-2 ~ rr.. SUI}'I"'NS: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. " 1'. SPEAKEr: A point of order has been raised. ~ 'P. SIM-•ONS: Yr. Speaker, the }~in:lster of Industrial fleveloprnent has not been long in the House and he probably doeR not know the rules. I wonder would you indicate to him that when my colleague or so~e other member in the House is speaking, the rules say that he should keep quiet and let my colleague have his say. ~"'. SPEAKE!'!.: '!'he hon. }'inister of Industrial Development. ~'1' .• Ll1NJ11HGAN: If the hen.

Leader of the Opposition ~•ere to make the statement that he just made out loud across the Rouse he would understand the reason for the provocation. ~ 'P. ROBEP.TS: }'ll. SPEAKE!' : heen - I w:lll repeat, the statement was in order, " r. Speaker. Order, please! Order, please! A point of order has ~m. POBEPTS: I will repeat it here or outside the House. ~ ' l'. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order has been raised. The hon. gentleman for Burgeo-Bav n'E spoir (}(r. Simmons) has correctly stated the rules. ~fll • ROBE"PTS : 1<p • SPEAKF.l> : Hear , hear!

The hen, member for T.Jindsor-Bttchans. ~T-. • FL TG!IT: ~' r . Speaker, I asked a question a few days ar,o with regards to entitlement to severence pay. I asked :l.f indeed there was entitlement. I did not ask the government of N"ewfoundland to pay severence pay to the workers in r.ome By rhance. I asked the Premier that :If the workers in r.ome By r.hance were indeed judged to be entitled to severence pay would that severence pay take precedence over any ] i ens secured or unsecured. There was no answer forthcoming on that quest:l.on, ~ ' r.

Speaker. ! can only now assume that either the government l••as not aware of whether it should or should not have,but obviously now they are aware of it, obviously now,that severence pay would not take precedence over !:lens and the implication has been made that we are asl:.ing that the government of Newfoundland would pay the sevPrence pay. l•Then we talk about who is accusing whom, nothing could 2732

t'Arch 10, 1976 ' "' . n.H'!'T: he further from the truth. Tape 1040 l'v cmest1on was t.rould the severence pay take precerlence I!l -3 anc1 the government at the tf.me was not aware and now obviously they are a"'rare. }'r. Speaker, as a ner• 111ember in thts House I do not want to pursue The Termination of Employment Act but I hRve to say I am appalled - ,.,11y '-muld a bill pass through this House in 1973 and not he proclai1'1ed '? I can suggest to the hon.

House Leader that had that b111 been proclaimed the fuss that r~e are having here today ~muld not have hRd taken pJ<1ce because the bill would have been there <~nd the people ~n rome By Chance and this House would have went unrler the hi]] anrl whatever Nould have been decided would have been rledrlec in 1 fr:ht of Hh"t the bill said.

But t.•l.nt h<~s happened in Come By Chance - and I was down there any 1 have been toJCI and T know that some people in rome By Chance, a lot of the ,,•orkers feel - <~nc1 so!11ebocly is going to have to go ont there and tell them the cl.ifference or have them told through this House - that they feel that if that bHl were to be proclailned toclay that they jn~eed woulc1 he entitlerl to sixteen weeks termination, and certainly they are asY.ing why it was not proclaimed and I am asking. 1'r.

Speaker, another grave fear down there, and a fear that T share, 1 s that r,re are gofnp., the Provtnce is going on the a!lsumption thnt the ffnal solution for the rome By r.hance will be the disposal of the assets, the sale of the refinery to another company, r,rho will operate that refinery and guarantee that Newfoundland will indeed h'lve a refinery anc1 a viable inclustry in rome By rhance. Now the feAr 1s this, Sfr, that 1t is not as easy to sell an oil refinery- if you have the expertjse, if you have the crew dtspersed all over the world.

T talked to people in Come By rhance yesterday who 1~ere fn r~presenting people from all over the worlcl, at least from nlJ over rannna and they 2733

t·tarch 10, }Q7(i. HR. FLIGHT: Tape 1041 RR - 1 have indicated to me that they can ahsorh the whole, every man in Come 1\y r.hance in the· next six to eight months. They are, and I ,fill admit to this House~that they are finding out- their only problem is that they are finding reluctance on the half of the men who work in Come By Chance to leave and go to Calgary or to Sarnia or to somewhere else. 1\ut I sincerely ask this government if it is your hope to interest another operator, another large oil company- Imperial, Gulf, Irving or anybody else - to come in and operate that refinery?

Do you indeed believe that you will be able to convince them so easily that they will come so quickly if they have to b~ild a completetnew work force? I think it is the obligation of this government to do what they can to see that as much of that work force can be retained in the Come By Chance area as possible. Another point here, ~1r. Speaker, we are not talking about 500 people laid off. We are talking about 2,000 people directly involved. 500 are going to lose their jobs. Let me bring back a word that has been thrown around this Chamber an awful lot, the multiplier effect.

Two thousand people will be affected in that area, Mr. Speaker, indirectly or directly. If you want to talk about families, it is closer to about 18,000, if you talk about men, women and children. ~lr. Speaker, this is going to sound again - I will probably be .called by the hon. House Leader as being petty or being political - but indeed it is a fact that during the summer of 1975 members of this govern­ ment made an announcement that led people of Come By Chance to believe that their future, the economy of Come By Chance, the future of the refinery was secure.

Based on that information they went out and mortgaged, spent their lives' savings into homes. MR. RnRF.RTS: Even in October the Premier was saying that. MR. 'PLIGHT: They may not have done that had they not been probably acting under the - you know, who is one to believe anymore than the Premier of the Province or the government? When the government says somethinp, is good then automatically something must be good. So I say, 2734

~!arch 10, 1976. HR. FLIGHT: Tape 1041 RH - 2 ~<ell, this is a good place for me to live. The refinery is secure. There is goinr, to be expansion. There is hope now for the petrochemical complex. ~~y not build a $40,000 horne in Chance Cove? And my last comment - MR. ~Pl'AKER: Order, please! I must point out to the hon. gentleman that his five minutes r.as expired. noes the hon. gentleman have leave of the House to continue. The hon. gentleman. Hn. FLIGHT: no I have leave? MP.. SPF.AKF.R: Yes. ~IR. FLIGHT: ~1r.

Speaker, the one other thing that came through and h.ns been coming through to me more and more is that if the Government of Newfoundland- l'!nd it is not my desire to be petty in this House and T will not in the next three or four years be petty for petty sake, 1 t is the 1l'lst thing I l<Tant to do to cast asperations on any individual member of the government.

I have great respect for most of the ministers­ but it seems to me, Sir, that if the Government of Newfoundland were doing their job in protecting the $41 million investment that we had in Come By Chance thl'lt that bankruptcy may have been declared a lot quicker than it was oeclarec. It seems unbelievable to me, ~ir, that the Come By Chance, the oil refinery at Come J\y Chance could have allowed to go into the <ieht that it did go into when Ataka was owed $100 million. Why wae lt a.l1m•erl to go to ~3nn mil1ion? Vas not the p,overnment aware? Could they not have pulled the plug?

Could they not have saved a lot of people, a lot of anxiety hy having this thinp, ~•e are going through now, having ~one through it a year from now? HR • SPFAIZER: ~m . FL Ir.HT : Order,please! I think - I heartily support the prayer of the petition. HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I realize in speaking on this subject there are many ramifications. But on the very last point or sentence or two the 'lon. gentleman was on, I think he was indeed broaching a matter which is sub-iudice and ~.rhich must be avoided. The hon. member for Twillingate, '!R. SHAJ,T.WOOD: Mr.

Speaker, I take it that what the Minister of Mines 11no EnE'rgv said js the sjmple truth, 2735

~larch 16, 1976 Tape No. 1042 ID-f - 1 }ffl. S:MALLH00D : that even if this bill, this Act that was passed three years ago were now to be proclaimed, or had been ]'lrocla:l.med :f_n the last '•reek or month or a year, it '1-muld not apply to this case in Come By Chance. I take that to be fact. ~'R. CROSBIE: It is. HP. ~MALLT~nnn: Nm~ he did not speak as Attorney General, he did not speak as the Chief Law Officer of the Crown,but he is a la~ryer and and he is Hinister of Mines and Energy and this matter of Came By Chance has been his particular baby, I am afraid.

Sa I take it that he knows what he is talking about, that the Act~ if it had bePn proclaimed 1would not apply anyhow. Now whether it ought to have been proclaimed in another matter, it really has nathin11: to do with Come By Chance 1 if the minister is correct that it '~ould not apply to Come By Chance. NoH what you are left with then are several possibilities, One is, as the Leader of the Opposition suggested, bring ·in new legislation. The member for Burgeo- Bay d 1 Espoir says,put it through all its stagesj we will all help and collaborate in that and do it in one day.

Bills have been introduced and become law in one day. That is another suggestion. I want to suggest to the House, Hr. Speaker, that there are two really serious matters; One is the lass to Newfoundland of highly skilled men who will go off to the Mainland of Canada;and the other is the homes, the ne1v homes and mortgage situation which is tragic. It is tragic beyond wards. The market for those homes simply vanishes. Nobody will buy them because the people who would have bought them are the men working in the refinery and they ~11 he gone.

So there will be really no customers for those fine homes that are now mortgaged up to the hilt. Now let me say one ather thing, the liquidator, the - what are they called? }ffl. SI}~NS: The receiver. The receiver said the other day that there 1vere two serious 2736

~larch 10, 1976 Tape No, 1042 NM- 2 MR . SMALLWnon: approaches to them for the purchase of the refinery. I happen to know the names, I have known for three weeks the name of one eminently big and eminently respectable and eminently important oil outfit who have shown energetic interest in buying the refinery. I have known about this intimately for several weeks.

What occurs to me is the thought that the government,in some way or other,would gamble that in six months- now the Premier said, I heard him. say on TV, that this might be- he was asked how long will it take perhaps before the refinery is bought by others- he said, "nh, three months to three years," Then he added, "Well," he said, "I do not think it will be three months nor do I think it will be three years." Well could you narro~' it? And his ans~~er was, "Yes. Say a year to a year and a half." I suggest that 1t would be a lot shorter than that, much shorter than a year.

If the government were prepared to gamble that within six months it will be bought, the refinery, by a hig outfit, a going concern that are able to make it go, that they gamhle on that. The average pay in the Refinery is about $14,000. I have a list of all the rates of pay and it averages at $14,000. That $14,000 for six months ~~ould be $7,000 and $7,000 for 400 men- not the 500 now, but say 100 or 150 would be kept on for so many months anyhow, sort of on a more or less a caretaker or a little more than a caretaker basis - so you are talking, at the 2737

?'1arch 10, lq76. HR. SHALLWOOD: Tape 1043 R'H - 1 maximum,of 400 men, 400 men at $7,000 for six months is $2.8 million, a little under $3 million. I only ask them to consider it. It is a big gamble to take. But it will keep that magnificent team· of Newfound­ landers here in Newfoundland, ready to begin operating the refinery when someone buys it. Th~ first thing that someone is going to need is a staff. You do not want to have train a new crowd all over again. It would take a year=to do it. Maybe it is worth gambling.

Keep that team of 500 Newfoundlanders here in Newfoundland, under pay, or if you like, under half pay which would be $1,40n,ooo instead of $2.8 million, for six months a gamble. Would the Premier and his colleagues think about that. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PlUi!HER }IOORES: Hr. Speaker, I had not intended to speak in support of this petition today. ~ut after the mini debate that has been established I think it is only fair that I do so.

I think with all due respect, Sir, and I am not pointing fingers as such, I think there has been a political opportunism attitude taken in this particular problem at this time which is not healthy for this Province. MR. R. SH11'10NS: MR. SPEAKER: HR. CROSRIE: NR. SI!1MONS: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. Order, please! A point of order has been raised. Sit down! Sit down! Mr. Speaker, the Premier has mentioned the term'political opportunism)and if it is a reference to any actions of me or my colleagues in the official Opposition I reject it and I suggest, ~fr. Speaker, - MR. CROSBIE: On the point of order.

AN RON. MEMBER: Order! Order! MR. NEARY: Are you making the rules? Sit down! MR. SIMMONS: I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that he is imputing motives and that is against the rules of this House. MR • SPEAKER : Order,please! I do not see that there has been any breach of order. There may well be a difference of opinion. Certainly no members 2738

1-larch li'J, 1976. MR. SPEAKF.R: Tape 1043 motives have been impugned is my understanding of it. The hon. the Premier. RH - 2 PREMIER MOORF.S: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. It was not directed at the hon. gentleman from Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir, Mr. Speaker. What would he directed at that hon. r,entleman is much more serious than what I am talking about on an individual basis right now. The fact is, Sir, regarding the remarks of the member from Windsor-Buchans (Mr.

Flight) the business ' of why was not the proclamation of the legislation that was passed regarding pay which could affect the 'vorkers of Corne By Chance, it is very simple in that labour and management both asked us to hold it up until they could possibly have input into amendments that would affect that particular Jep;islation. So that is the reason, ~~r. Speaker, that that was not done.

The reference to H'hy, and the application of this particular legislation if it was proclaimed, is not relevant for this very simple reason, Sir, that the interim receiver beinjl; appointed,if the court case reacts in bankruptcy the fact is it is retroactive to when that receiver was appointed. So in fact that particular legislation would have been no help, no help whatsoever in th1.s particular case. It is a Bankruptcy Act and not .iust a termination of employment.

The situation, Sir, is that we as a government feel as strongly as any memher of the Opposition, any member of the Opposition, the other side of the Ilouse, as far as the men and women who are employed on that job are concerned. The fact is, Sir, that a receiver is in position right now. He will do all in our pm~er, and with that limitation in this particular context,to try to make sure that the receiver retains the good will and rloP.s Hhatever can he clone for the welfare of those employees who are gning to be lairl off.

I think, Sir, it is fair to say that by appointing the'lnwyer,hy assisting hopefully the receiver, by helping him in any HOY WP. can, I think, Sir, that is a statement of good faith. The other thing is, I think it has been pointed out,and I think it is probahly one of the most major obligations that the employees have at the oil refinery,is the tremendous personal debt they have gotten into in a very quick period of time. We had a situation at the oil refinery where 2739

~larch 10, 1976. PRI'MIER HOORF.S: Tape 1043 RB - 3 people l~ft jobs in this Province which were not well paying, I suppose, by present day standards , $400 or $500 a month, got work at the refinery and all of a sudden found themselves in, after training, in $1,400, $1,500 per mQnth. The fact is, Sir, with that sort of income and ,let us face it • if you got a job in the refinery in those days it meant that your income was pretty well secured, everybody thought in the public eye. These people went ·and acquired huge mortgages, payments on accessories that one has aroun d the llouse , and have run up great debts.

One of the obligations I feel, Sir, we as a government have is together with the task force to identify exactly what these obligations are because 2740

March 10, 1976 Tape 1044 PK - 1 Premier Moores: these are the obligations. It is not just income. It is what they owe is important. This is an area we can possibly help and where if we can, we will. But this is a subject of getting the information, meeting with the unions, talking to the men, and seeing what can be worked out to their mutual advantage. The thing is, Sir, I can reiterate that we do not want to see the men of skills leave that area, but tte cannot promise at the same time that the refinery 'l-7ill be operational in three months, six months or nine months. We cannot do that because we do not know.

And to tell these people that we do know ~Then we do not is something that maybe a few of the members of the Official Opposition may think, Sir, but that is not the practice of this government of promising something when it is not a fact. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER ~IOORES: The fact is, Sir, that we are concerned about the men who are losing their jobs in this area. We are concerned about the industry. MR. SI}~ONS: Show it! PREMIER MOORES: We are concerned about the investment. MR. SIMMONS: Show it! PREMIER MOORES: We are concerned about a great many people who have been involved in this thing. ~ffi .

SIMHONS: Show it! PREXIER MOORES: And it is not something that we are going to take political advantage of by a member who sits there, Mr. Speaker, saying, "Show it! Shm~ it!" Because, Mr. Speaker, he can shove it. Thank you, Sir. SOME RON • MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. S0010NS: Mr. Speaker, on a matter of personal privilege. PREMIER MOORES: Sure! MR. SIMMONS: That remark was completely uncalled for, unparliamentary, unbecoming of our Premier, and a gentleman. SmlE RON . ME~1BERS : Oh, oh! MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, and I ask you to ask the Premier to withdraw it without qualification. HR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! 27'41

Harch 10, 1976 Tape 1064 PK- 2 PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, on that point of personal privilege, if I could comment, I did not say what the member should shove or where. ~IR. SIHHONS: Coward! Coward! sam: RON • l1IDUlERS : I! ear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: Chicken! Coward! AN HON. MEI·!BER: What a chicken! 1·\R, SIHMONS: l>'hat a chicken! SOHE: HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hou. gentleman from Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. has raised a point of privilege, it may well be interpreted as that. I would perhaps regard it as a point of order, whether the term was parliamentary.

I would ask the hon. gentleman to withdraw it and then the matter would be disposed of. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, do you Hant me to ask him to unshove it or vithdraw it? MR. STMHONS: Mr. Speaker, - PREHIER MOORES: I will withdraw it, Sir. As it has been shoved, I will gladly withdraw, Sir. SO!"ffi l!ON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR, SIMMONS : MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker - Order, please! }m. SIMMONS: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I do not believe that is an unqualified withdrawal of the remark. I think it is very unhecoming, the whole performance of the Premier this afternoon. I ask you once ar,ain - }lR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! NR. SIMHONS: - that he has to withdra~ it - MR. CROSBIE: Sit down! MR. SIMMONS: - without any qualification. HR. CROSBIE: Sit down! IIR . ~PEAICER: Order, please! MR. __ CROSBIE: Act your age when we have students in the galleries . PREMIER 1100RES: Mr. Speaker, without qualification anything I have said to the hon. member or ever did to him I will gladly withdraw it. AN HON. MEMBER: llear, hear! 2742

i1arch 10, 1976 Tape 1044 PK - 3 .1:1!h_CRQSBIE: I wculd not pay any attention to him. Igno~e it • MR . SPEAKER: The bon. member for Conception Bay South . HR. NOLAN: Hr. Speaker, a number of members on the other.side, the Premier included,Have made reference to political motives and so on, but the fact is I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, in connection with this topic that ~€' have under discussion now that many of the people who are in Come· By Chance, who are the ones directly affected, who are faced with this situation right now look upon many people on both sides of this House at this time as very sceptically.

They are wondering with some of our behaviou~ in here,or lack of it, as to whether or not we are really and geninuely concerned.

We have a situation out there where we have,as the Premier indicated,a situation where men knowingly and women perhaps went and had huge mortgages on houses out there, and we also know from other spectulative things that we have seen in this Province that if there is any undue delay, and if these men had to go away,whether it is for six months or a year or whatever, any simpleton knows that the time to buy is when the market is down, and if that is what is going to happen, is there anything really that we can do to protect these people and their investment and their life savings out there?

Are we going to have someone who has a few more dollars in their pocket move out in a short time, buy up the houses and sell them back, or spectulators? Because this is a matter of some real concern. This is not political opportunism. This is a question of serious concern to the people out there. Now there is a matter that I would like to mention in connection with the possibility of the purchase hopefully soon of the refinery. The hon. member for Twillingate (Mr.

Smallwood) said that he was privy to certain information that one, two, three or more firms were interested, and that he knew about it for some three weeks or more. MR • S~W.LWOOD : I knew of one. HR. NOLAN: Pardon? HR. SHALLHOOD: I knew of one. ' . HR. HOLAN: Knew of one. But my own knowledge of this Province, Hr. Speaker, for what it is worth, is that I know that this Island 2743

March 10, 1976 Tape 1044 PK - 4 Mr. Nolan: and much of Labrador is a Province of brokers and agents. And t~hat I am lool<ing for- and I do not care what stand any party takes in this House if I find out about it, no matter who is involved - • 2744

March 10, 1976 Tape no .1045 Page 1 - mw Mr. Nolan. that I feel that there are people over there on that side of the House, ministers and so on, who can probably negotiate, probably just as well, and to my satisfaction, perhaps an agreement when the time comes about, with Gulf Oil, with Imperial Oil, with Shell, or whoever, but what scares the hell out of me, Mr. Speaker, from what I know in this Province, is how many middlemen are going to be involved when it finally comes about? Who will be the front? I am not saying there is going to be. I am voicing a concern.

I am voicing a concern for all members of this House and for the people of the Province generally who know that you can hardly buy or purchase anything in this Province without so many middlemen involved-and this was brought to the attention, for example, of the han. minister in a reference that the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) made the other day when questioning what -action, if any, was taken in the Prices Review Board study on food prices in this Province where eight of the recommendations asked for provincial action and not one of them were carried out, and I doubt if they will be-but that is an aside.

All I am saying is - and it may not come about - that if there is going to be a purchaser of the refinery, and I hope there is, and if the hon. member for Yilbride (}~ r. Hells) is involved in it, I w1.sh him ~~ f"~l. He all c'o, and we aJl support him in hi R efforts. MR. WELLS: HiF:h !'1e loelJ vdth Fhat? MR. NOLAN: In the purchase of the refinery. MR. WELLS: T 1m not poinp to hny it! MR.NOLAN: I am not saying you are going to buy it. I am sa,ing you are a member of the government, and you have been lipping off about what we should do and should not do, and now maybe you will listen for a moment. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! 2745

March 10, 1976 Tape no. 1045 Page 2 MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, is that parliamentary? MR. NOLAN: I withdraw the remark, Mr. Speaker, without qualification, unlike some gentlemen I know.- ¥It. ROBERTS: It is perfectly parliamentary. MR. NOLAN: - even though it is parliamentary, you .see. That is the kind of a crowd we are over here. AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh! MR. SMAU.WOOD: What is unparliamentary is the use of the word, you and your. MR. NOLAN: MR. WELLS MR. NOLAN: That is correct. Is this parliamentary? Correct. I thank you very much, MR. NOLAN: Which may surprise some students and some members of the House.

I thank you very much. MR. NEARY: You thank the hon. member very much. MR. NOLAN: I thank the hon. member very much. The point is, and I am sure the hon. member knows my point, that almost everything of any significance that has ever been done in this Province there are too many middlemen, and I will say it again. And if this refinery is going to be - I am really making a case that the minister is questioning~and that is go do the job that I hope you can, sell it to Gulf or whatever arrangement you can come about or whoever. But the fact is that I, and many others, will be watching to see who makes the deal.

There is nothing wrong with the people in the government doing it. That is what they are there for. More power to them. But do not let us see someone here locally trying to cash in on a hunk of change on a sick situation that we have in this Province and that is what many people suspect. That is what we will be looking for. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon, Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, may I just say a few words in support of this petition just to get it back so that the record is somewhat more 2746

March 10, 1976 Tape no. 1045 Page 3 Mr. Hickman. accurate. This House cannot presume under any circumstances as to what the courts will decide with respect to the matter that is presently before it on the application that a permanent trustee in bankruptcy be appointed under the Bankruptcy Act. There is an interim trustee already appointed two weeks ago by the courts under the Bankruptcy Act.

But should the situation occur where a trustee in bankruptcy is appointed,or alternatively under the provisions of the two trustees where there is an interim receiver appointed,either by ECDG or by the partial beneficiaries - under - not partial beneficiaries - the beneficiaries under the debentures on the supplies out there,or the Government of Newfoundland, that any disposition of the assets will be within the exclusive responsibility of the trustee in bankruptcy and/or the interim receiver who must act, not only in accordance with the law, but in the best interests of all creditors,and most assuredly, in my opinion, at least, would have to seek the approval of the courts for any sale to satisfy the courts that it is - certainly if it is under the Bankruptcy Act - that it is prudent. 2747

}larch 10, 1976 Tape 1046 IB-1. _.11R. HICKi'fA-l'l : ¥r. Speaker, I simply rise in supporting this petition so that no one in the press gallery can go away with the idea that the government of Newfoundland would be permitted to sell by itself this plant there, and anyone who is making that suggestion in my opin1on is not levelling with the people who have such a vested interest, w~ich are all the people of Newfoundland, in the plant in Come By Chance.

These decision will be decisions that will have to be made by a prudent trustee in accordance with the laws of Canada and in accordance with directions from the court.

One other thing that I think bears repeating, and that t~as a statement by the hon. the Premier a few minutes ago, that he has asked, has instructed the officials in the appropriate department of government,and this was decided at the meet:l.ng with the task force who were very - for some strange reason the representatives of the union and the people out there appear to look at the situation not only with concern but more realistically than has been indicated in this House today by some of the statements that I have heard.

They agree that we should first identify, number one, the people in the area who have mortgages, the extent of the mortgages,and secondly. we should ask , and we have instructed the people in the nepartment of ~unicipal Affairs and Housing insofar as they are involved,to indicate what action can be taken to alleviate some of the problems that have arisen. I simply ask hen. members of the Rouse and suggest to this House that it is not in the best interests of the people -who are directly involved in this regretable situation , to be rnakinr, wild statements when the facts may indicate somewhat different.

It is in thi.s determinat:l.on on the part of government and in the detE'.rmination of this task force who are a very representative g:roup9 to tror k together and to meet frequently and to give full and frank disclosure of all the facts as we know them "that may bring some relief to the people in the area. ~~. SPEAKER : The hen. member for LaPoile. 2748

I'Rrch 10, 1976 Tape 1046 IB-2 ~'1'. :W..APY: I have another petition, Sir, to present. ~'r .

Speaker, I t,,ant to present three pet:itions actually, and I ~'ant to ~raw to the attention of the hon. m~bers of the Fouse that the matter referred to in the prayer of the petition is really a fe<leral matter, hut in keeping ~1ith past tradition in the House, Sir, we table the petHionR ;1nd ask the minister responsi.hle, in this case the Vfnister of Trl'lnsportation and Co111l!lunicat:l_ons, to forward the petition to the appropriate fec1eral min:lster or the appropriate federal authority. '~'he prayer of the pet:ltion, 1-fr.

Speaker, is that the Canadian l'at:'io and Television rommission be asked to restrict te]evis:l.on scenes involvinr. social drinking. I will just read a part of the petition, Sir. "Hhereas alcoholism is becoming an increased problem in our country,

be it resolved that we write the Canadian Radio and Television Commission protesting the extensive sho~1ing of scenes on Tl7 involving social drink1n!1: and servinr, of alcoholic beverages and further that each branch and individua 1 of - th:l.s :l.s the ACWA - individual write their member of parliament expressing this viewpoint.

Below is a form thl'lt you may use~and so forth,"and we, the people who sign these pet it ions, that lo.'e support the resolution of the Anglican Church lYomer 's Association of Newfoundland to the ranac1ian Parlio and Television Commission protesting the extensive showing of scenes on television involving social drinking and the serving of alcoholic beverages." The petitions are signed by forty-seven residents of my district, Sir, in Port au Basques, Harbour Le Cou, and ~ose Blanche.

As I indicated they call upon the Canadian Radio and Television to take steps to eliminate the extensive showing of scenes on television involving social rlrinking and the serving of alcoholic beverages. "-'r. Speaker, I call upon all members of the hon. Rouse to support these three pE-titions and in so do:lng, Sir, I want to congratulate all the branches of the ACHA throughout Newfoundland and Labrador for taking the in:i tiative in this matter in trying to do sol!'eth:lng 2749

~!arch 10, 1976 ~m. NF.AP.Y : T<>pe 1046 IB-.e about alcoholjsrn, Sir, which js becoming an ever increasinr prohlern in our Province and in our country. }<r. Speaker, before I ]ay these petitions upon the table of the !louse I might pass an observation 2750

March 10, 1976, Tape 1047, Page 1 -- apb MR. NF.ARY: myself, Sir, that it seems to me from watching television th11t every time a detective solves a crime or a lawy·er wins a case in court~or some soap opera lover who has had a lover's <1Uarre.l and the quarrel is resolved on the television, the occasion, Sir, is usually celebrated by serving cocktails which is all a part of the brainwashing process, Mr. Speaker, to try to brainwash us into accepting the new morality. It give me great pleasure, Mr. Speaker, to be able to present these petitions to the hon.

House and I would ask that they be tabled and passed over to the Minister of Transportation and Communications so that he may in turn pass them on to whatever federal agency or minister is responsible for this matter. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the petition of the bon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary). Like he I have a similar petition and I wish I had known he was going to present his today. If I had known that I would have brought mine in also, which I will do shortly.

There is a feeling abroad among the people concerned who sent in the petition, and perhaps to some of the members opposite also, that there is an appearance at times that you really are not in the swing of things, that you really are not up-to-date, you really are not a member of the current modern generation, that you are a bit of a dullard, that you cannot have a good time unless you have a glass or a bottle of something in your hand.

I suggest that there are members here in this Housf' who have managed for years and years and years to, one, be very, very sociable, good, very good in their jobs,and pe~haps have never taken a drink at all. And I do not think that we judge them or we should not, at least, anyone because of the fact that they have chosen to abstain. I say that is their business and more power to them. So I think I can speak for my colleagues on this side, at least this party, when I say that we support most ~eartily the efforts of the group concerned and we would hope that it will be forwarded on to the C.R.T.C. with the 2751

March 10, 1976, Tape 1047, Page 2 -- apb MR. NOLAN: support, hopefully, of the members of this House. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 11R. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER: ~1R. ROUSSEAU: Hear, hear! The hon. the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the minister and as Acting Minister of the Department of Communications we certainly undertake to forward this particular document to the C.T.C. And also, of course, any others that are tabled in like manner will be forwarded to the C.T.C. MR. SPF.AKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR . ROBERTS : Mr.

Speaker, my colleague and friend from Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan) has spoken for us as a party on this but perhaps I could say a word or two as a member because as with the g~ntleman from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) and my friend from Conception Bay Soubh (Mr. Nolan), I have received a number of these petitions from members of the Anglican Church Womens' Associations in several communities in my district, particularly, interestingly enough, from the Labrador side of the Straits, from Forteau, L'Anse-a-Loup, West St. Modiste, Red Bay and Pinware and the communities on that side of the district. Mr.

Speaker, the problem really is infinitely deeper than one of portraying drinking and alcoholism. The hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) and my friend from Conception Bay South have stated that to ~~ntion the problem, but the problem is far deeper and the problem really calls for action, not just by the Government of Canada through the Canadian Radio and Television Commission, it calls for action from the Government of this Province.

Because even if we were to ban all television portrayals of social drinking,and even if we were to require the television programmes to carry detailed and accurate documentarys on the evils and the horrors of alcoholism artd the trouble alcohol causes, that in itself, Sir, I do not think would meet all of the needs. There may be something in them as suggestions but that would not meet the need .

The problem is really with the age in ~~hich we are living and the problem in a medical or a health sense - and I am sure my hon. friend the present Minister of Justice would agree with this - the problem is with the fact that we

March 10, 1976, Tape 1047, Page 3 -- apb Mr. Roberts: as a society do not make nearly the effort we should to educate people in the evils of alcohol.

It is an old statement that has been made in the house many times but we spend what? - maybe $50,0 00 or $100,000 a year on alcohol education programmes in this Province and we take in ten or fifteen or twenty or thirty millions a year - from memor y - from the sale of alcoholic beverages and we also spend many millions more in our health nrogrammes.be they in the hospitals or be they in doctors offices or elsewhere, and through our social services programmes we spend many millions more dealing with or trying to alleviate or trying to cure the problems and the difficulties which are caused by the abuse of alcoholic beverages .

Mr. Speaker, 2753

March 10, 1 Q76. NR. ROBERTS: Tape 1048 RH - 1 1 am all for sending these petitions to Ottawa. I had not presented mines here in the House but rather I have decided and, in fact, have been in touch with the appropriate authorities in the Government of Canada to let them know of my feelings and my support. The hon. gentleman from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) has presented them in the House and that is a good thing and gives an opportunity for a few comments to be made.

But in sending them to Ottawa or in putting pressure on the Federal authorities who have that responsibility to deal with this problem of the portrayal of alcoholic beverages as a delight,in dealing with the television content regulations and the programming content regulations, let us at the same time realize that most of the remedy, I suggest, lies within our own hands and that we as a government or as a society take in $20 millions or $30 millions a year from the sale of alcohol. It is a state monopoly and it is well it is so. It is a very lucrative one.

But on the other hand we make little effort to do anything to cure the ills which perhaps inevitably but in any event inescapably come from the fact that alcohol is widely available and that the consumption of alcohol.rightly or wrongly, is very much part of our way of life. I would like to see the government put some more money into the alcohol education programmes either through the government or through the private agencies who were in this field.

I think that would be a very meaningful step forward and one which would help to remove what is probably the greatest abuse, the greatest social abuse that our society f<tces today. lJe hear a lot of talk about drugs, a lot of talk in the newspapers and on the radio programmes, but the greatest drug we have and the drug abuse that we have today in this Province and in all other provinces as ~.rell is alcohol and alcoholism. I support the petition, Sir. SOMF. RON. MEI'{BF.RS: Hear, hear: Jffi. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. RON A.

HIC!C'IAN: In rising to support this petition, and I assume, Sir, that you have been receiving these petitions that relate to the Government 2754

March 10, 1976. MR • HICKMAN: Tape 1048 RH - 2 of Canada without prejudice to our rules,because obviously it would be in the best interests of this House if what has happened in the last few days with respect to petitions that should be directed to federal ministers and federal agencies were accepted as a matter of course. The prayer of this petition hv the An~lican Ladies 1 Association is one that, in my opinion, should receive the full commendation and support of the House.

I am concur with some of the comments made by other speakers, other hon. members,that simply banning the use or glorification of consuming alcohol on television will not bring an end to this problem, I believe, Mr. Speaker, that we need more organizations in this Province similar to the organization of Anglican Ladies who have taken this stand. SOME RON • HE!•iBERS : Hear, hear! MR. HICKMAN: It is a great pity that they have disappeared, I am probably- I know I am the only member of this hon.

House who in the past served as Recording Scribe of Grand Division No. 9 of the Sons of Temperance in r.rand Bank for many years. MR. NEARY: He is now a member of the - MR. HICKMAN: But unfortunately, regrettably, unpardonably, the Sons of Temperance has totally disappeared from the Province of Newfoundland - MR. ROBERTS: Gone forever. MR. HIC~I: - gone, finished, lost. It is still active in Halifax and in three or four other places in Nova Scotia. To my knowledge that is all we have left of an organization that had the courage of their con­ victions and who were prepared to stand up and be counted. Mr.

Speaker, I am sure that all bon. members of this House would want to join with me in commending Mr. James A. HcGrath, M.P., for his one man crusade that he is carrying on with limited success in the Parliament of Canada to have television shows of violence and drinking and crime restricted and put an end to some of this glorif:l .cation. }lR. SHALL WOOD: Before the minister sits down I am very much interested in that organization of which he was a member. I think I too was a member 2755

March lr), 1976. HR • SMALl, WOOD : Tape 1048 RH - 3 of it at St. Thomas's, Canon Wood Hall in the Rast F.nd of St. John's. l~as there not one at Fortune? Is there not a lodge building there next to the swimming pool? NR. HICKMAN: Over in St . J,awrence, MR. SMALLWOOD: Was there not one over in St. Lawrence? Are they not still running? Is there only one left in the Province, the one at Grand Rank? MR. HICKMAN: ~r. Speaker, if I may in response to that question from the hon. Rentleman from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood). }'iR. CROSBIE: ~ IR.

HICIO!AN: The two boozers should get together outside, I am not aware that there was ever a building or indeed a lodge in Fortune. The building that the hon. gentleman refers to next to the swimming pool is in Grand Bank. MR. SMALLWOOD: Grand Bank, right, right, Grand Bank. MR. HICKM.AN: I heard last week when I was in Grand Bank that the building may be coming down. I think this is most unfortunate. It is the oldest building in Grand Bank. MR. SMALLWOOD: If the minister will join me, we will start a crusade to stop them from tearing it down. ~'iR.

HICKMAN: l>lel 1, the hon. gentleman may have more influence there than I,hecause I understand it has been bought by the Orange Lodge. }ffi. CROSBIE: It is called the Skakum building. NR. SMALLWOOD: >'hat are they going to do with it? 'ffi. HICKMAN: They, I think, are going to remove it for the purpose of providing additional parking because their building is right behind it. MR. SMALLWOOD: Near the pool? NR. HICKHAN: There was one in St. Lawrence, I am told, many years ago and there was one in Epworth. It was a strong, strong lodge in Epworth. 275o

}!arch 10, 1976 Tape 1049 PK- 1 MR. SMALLWOOD: And Canon Wood Hall. HR . HICKMAN: And there may have been an offshoot of one in St. John's,that I am not aware of. But in any event Nova Scotia is the only place where that great organization still exists and flourishes with limited success. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. I am not sure if it is order or of observation or point of something or other. I •~ ould just like to make a few points if I could, Sir, and rule me on it if I am out of order.

I recognize I am a new member in the House and consequently have to be guided by distinguished members that have been around for some time on rules and procedure, and I will be governed by that, and I will take your advice. I commend Your Honour for the presence in the House in the sense that you have maintained a level of decorum that certainly seems to me to manifest the level of order beyond what I have seen in previous years. AN liON. HEI-IDER: Hear, hear! MR . LUNDRIGAN: I waat to make one observation, It is now almost quarter to five.

Last Thursday when we came into the House it was quarter to six 1I believe 1 before we got off of petitions. Now please I would like Your Honour and the House to not misintrepret my r emarks as being objectionable to the presentation of petitions. But I believe judging by remarks which were made by the Leader of the Opposition some 1~ eeks ago of the urgency of opening the House, the need for debate, my friend from LaPolie (Mr. Neary) the need for the House to be opened, the House gives the Province the kind of - MR. NEARY: On a point of order. MR . LUNDRIGAN: The House gives - MR.

NEARY: On a point of order. }ffi. SPEAY~R: I am waiting to hear it. }ffi. LUNDRIGAN: Your Honour,I have been used to on frequent occasions despite my inexperience of being able to stand up and make observations of this nature on a point of order with a recommendation at the end in the House of Commons in Ottawa,which I assume is relevant to our procedure here. My point, Your Honour,is this, - AN HON . MEMDER:

!·larch 10, 1976 Tape 1049 PK - 2 HR. SPEAKER; Order, please! ~IT,. LUNDRIGAN: Sir, I wonder if there is any possibility even after the advice from the Premier that that member excercise a little bit or restraint, control and show some leadership and some manlines~ in his behaviour while some other - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR . LUNDRIGAN: hon. member are speaking. I know that he is a distinguished member of long standing. Jffi. SPEMCER Order, please! The hon. gentleman should continue his remarks with respect to the point of order that he is developing HR.

SMALLI-IOOD: The hon. minister is not a member of the band of hope , I can see that. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Sir, I heard the distinguished gentleman who lead the various parties make comments that we ··needed the House open for debate on major issues, legislation and so on, so that we could give the Province a lift and so on. Here we are for the last five days we have been sitting we have spent a considerable amount of time on petitions, not the presentation. It is essential that the people have an avenue for presenting their grievances or whatever the case might be.

But I contend, Your Honour, that we have allowed ourselves to get roped into many debates. A lot of the comment is repetitious, if I might suggest. And I am a ' little concerned that that perhaps the way the House is presenting itself to the Province might be less than the way it should, and it could end up resulting in a level of inefficiency in our proceedings that might in fact not be as commendable as it should be to the House itself. I make that as an observation not as a criticism. tffi. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR . ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, on the point of order, if in fact it was one.

The hon. gentleman from Grand Falls has not only been impudent and impertinent to the House, but he has been impudent and impertinent towards Your llonour. And I would suggest, Sir, and I do raise a point of order not as the han. - 2758

March 10, 1976 MR. LUNDRIGAN: MR. ROBERTS: MR. LUNDRIGAN: MR. ROBERTS: }1R. SPEAKER: Tape 1049 PK- 3 Mr. Speaker, on a point of privilege. Mr. Speaker, there is no point of privilege in this at all. A point of personal privilege. Mr. Speaker, I am speaking to a point of order. Since the han. gentleman has risen on a point of privilege I will be now required to hear him and return to the point of order. HR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, my question of privilege is this, I am not used to the business of what it means about impugning motives and making asperations and all that stuff.

But I do not consider it the right of the hon. member to stand up after a reasonable representation has been made through you, Sir, to the House, to make observations about impertinence are all kinds of nonsense about disrespect to the Speaker, His Honour. Certainly that was not part of my intention - AN HON. MEMBER: Sit down! MR. LUNDRIGAN: and at some point the Leader of the Opposition is going to have to assume some responsibility for leadership - AN RON • MEMBER: Shut up! MR· LUNDRIGAN: - as part of the government process. AN liON. MEMBER: Learn the rules! MR.

LUNDRIGAN: Instead of being a small minded man as he is today at this moment. t1R. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order! Order! There has been a point of order and a point of privilege raised. 2759

"Rrch 10, 1976 Tape 1050 IB-1 ~~. ~OBERTS: Your Honour, may I speak to the point of pr:lvilege? The bon. p:ent1 eman from Crancl Flllls (Hr. I.nnclrigan) insists upon abusing the rules of the House, 11-'r. Speaker. I m11de no reference to his motives. I certainly made reference to his words,~~ich I say aeain ••ere impudent and impertinent. Now if Your Honour would rule on the point of priv:llege,if in fact it :Is one, whatever Your Honour rules, of course it wHl be. Then ff it is in order I would like to proceecl to speak to the point of order. The gentleman from Grand P11lls (~-<r.

Lundr:f .gan) has taken ten minutes to make a point of order and I ~muJd Jjk.e at least two or three, Sir, to respond to it. >!p • SJ'EAKF.T' : nrder, please! I am not aHare of any distinct breach of privilep;e. He are back to the point of orc1er. ''1'.. r mmn.TS : Vr. Speaker, now if I may continue on the point of order, Sir, I tmuld suggest that the gentleman from Grand Falls Wr. Lunc1rip;an) ra:l sed a spedous point of order. I v.r!.ll not suggest that he knew it was sped.ous. I wHl say thil.t he ought to have knm-m it was specious.

It was not only impudent and impertinent towarcls the House, Sir, but it ~7as :l.mpuc'lent and :Impertinent to•7arc1s you, r•r. Speaker. Your Honour has presir'ed over the c'leb<1.tes of th:ls Rouse in the last, •1ell since we elected you unantmou!;l y at the opening of this session. What the hon. gentleman is sa y inr, is that Your Honour has allo wed the rules of th:fs House to be hreachecl, and I would suggest, S:l.r, that that is not a function of any hon. member.

It :Is a direct and :Impertinent reference to Your Honour and I would suggest also that if the hen. met!' her t,•ishes to crtt :1 cize Your Honour's conduct there are appropriate and proper means and remed:l.es open to him. I would ask, ~-• r. Speaker, that the hon. gentleman from Cranrl '!'Rlls (~·1 r. Lunclrigan) be as~: ec\ to withrlraw his remarks insofar as they refer in any t~ay to Your Honour's conc1uct to the c1ebates of this House.

As far as I 1--Jtmv, Sir, Your Honour has not onl y carrierl . ,-" l t!1e trad:f tions of the Speaker of th:f.s House but has added considerably tn them, ann particular] y to our precedents dur:l .np the, to date, brief 2760

>'arch 10, 1976 MT'. POBE!lTS : Tape 1050 IB-2 but cxtraorc'inarily able tenure of the r.hair. ~·r, Speaker, the rules of this House govern the debates of this House. Your Honour is charred with the duty of observing these rules. Any bon. member, of course, under the rules may raise at any time a point of order if be feels the rules are not being observed. The hon, gentleman rose on a so-calle~ point of observation. He made no point of order. All be <":l.d ~·m s read an impertinent and impudent lecture.

Sir, if re did not knm,, hetter - and I assume he did not - then I say he ought to have l'nown better, and I would hope he will shortly know better. sn~ RON . IID-'RRn~ : Hear, hear: ~. f:PRAKE1": nrder, pJ ease: If bon. rentlemen ins:l.st upon the:! r r:l.ght to speak on th:l.s point of order, then I will bear a limited number of them. I can say that I am prepared to rule now, and I would certainly request hon. gent]emen,or 'Hould suggest to them,that enough has already been said and that the Chair is i~ a position to rule. However I will not say that I absolutely refuse to hear any.

I 'torould just put forward that in my opin:lon I have heard sufficient argument on it. l11ith respect tn a point raised by the T,eader of the Opposition, certa:lnly I clo not interpret or regard an y of the remarks by the bon. member. for Grand Falls (~r. Lundrigan) as 1n anv way derogatory of the Rouse or of the Chair. Hith respect to the point of orrler raised,what I understood to be a point of order, 'tod th respect to the time per:lod for petitions there are none in our ntles. There is a time period governing how long a person may speak in presenting a petition or spe aking to it.

That is five minutes. ~ut there is absolutely no rule restricting the time. There is for the question period, thirty period, And for various things there are. But strictly speaking once one got beyond Statements by ~ · inisters to rresenting Petitions, strictly s):>eaking,unless the House put a motion to the contrary,one could keep going until 2761

"'arch ll), 1976 MR. SPEAKEJ!: Tape 1050 six o'clock on Presentinlt Petitions. As our rule!" are- and that IB-3 nhviously is what I have to enforce - as our rules are there is no ~pecific time lim1tation for presenting petitions. 0 0 0 '1'. C""OSBIP.: I have a JUost unusual petition, vr. Speaker. I do not often F,et a chance to present a petition to this Rouse but this is ver y ~pprop r iate. 1'1-ere are a little pair of c\rawers w1th it . 2762

March 10, 1<)76 Tape No • 1051 NY - 1 "P .. CROSBIE: This little apron is sent to you,!

And here is what we ~•ant you to do./ That little pocket in front you see, I For a special purpose it is meant to be./ Just measure your waistline inch by inch,/ non't hold your breath,/ Don't pull, don't pinch./ For each inch you measure around,/ In the pocket put a penny sound./ If the size of your ~•aist you will not tell,/ Slip in a dollar or two,/ T'~ill do as ~,·ell./ The game is fair, you must admit./ All waist money that the pocket holds,/ Arnold's Cove UC women will use/ In a wise way to buy furniture for our ne~v church.1 Just send it to the undersigned/ And ~•e ~1ill thank you a lot for being so kind." Signed t-<rs.

Williams. Any member who ~,·ants to accept the challenge here and measure thetr ~mists will be welcome and I will refer it to the lady to 'vhom it refers. MR. ROBEPTS: Mr. Speaker, if I may say a word with respect to that petition since I tvas i_n Arnold's Cove last night and elected to contribute the dollar rather than the other alternative for I think good and sufficient reason.

I would not only commend the hon. gentleman but I would say that I for one would gladly put up - he obviously cannot take the dollar option - but I will start the contribution of $2.00 to~•ards the fund which will be necessary to pay off the cost ~;rhich will be incurred t.rhen the hon. gentleman puts his waist to the inch by inch test. And I fi~ure if He get S2.00 per member, there being 4() mel'\hers at present, Sir, that is $C!B.no. It is well knotm the hon. r•mtleman has substantial private means.

Hell, he should be able to mave a modest contribution and all those sources together may he enough to Pnahle the han. gentleman to defray the cost of an inch by inch measurement in this ~vorthy cause. I support that, Sir. l~. SPEAKER: The han. gentleman for Conception Bay South. l"F. NOT.AN: t'r. Speaker, ~dthout intending to take up any additional time in the !louse - MTI. Ll~DRIGAN: Put in your twenty-five cents, please! ?~. NOLAN: I vdll certainly put in my twenty-five cents, and I thank the hon. member, '1\>ho, incidentally is a constituent of mine, which I \Velcome 2763

~~arch lfl, 197~ Tape No. 1051 NM- 2 }1)'(. ROBF.ll.TS: He has got a better member than his constituents have. ~ffi. noLAN: We applaud the efforts of the member for St. John's West (Hr.

Crosbie), the 11insiter of Mines and Energy, and I am wondering if when he does measure either by inches or by centimenters or whatever. that magnificent girth, if he will table the measurements here in the House so we will all have that information in the public documents of the Prcovince, which ~>Till eventually, I assume, go to the Archives and vie certainly support the prayer of this petition, And I am just ,.mnderinr; now really if this might be fhe forerunner,or are we encouraging more to come of the same because - AN RON • MEt-IBER: lin avalanche. l"'R.

NOLAN: - everyone for example 'Jho has been in broadcasting or public life has received similar type bids from time to time - AN HnN. 'MEJIB.EE,_: Halkathons. ~m. NOLAN: - and walkathons and the like, but anyway we certainly support it and IJe look fonJard to- I do not know if the hon. member intends to have a public measuring on television and things like that. rm. ROBERTS: The Aga Khan used to be weighed publicly and balanced with diamonds. HR.

NOLAN: Weighed publicly, yes. 1-!aybe he might consider his weight in gold since he is the ~inister of Mines and Energy,and since gold is dropping in price 1 I understand. But we certainly support it and I have no doubt that all members of this House will and we thank the hen. member for bringing it to our attention. Thank you, ~ ·r. Speaker. ¥R.. ROBERTS: Hear! Hear: Measure all. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: 'lR. SPEliKER: The hon. ~finister of Social Services. HR. BRETT: l"r. Speaker, I would like to reply to a question asked by the Leader of the Opposition yesterday.

The question was in connection with a statement that I made over one of the radio stations. There was some suggestion that I may have had the wrong figures, or as the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) suggested that I might have used some rather queer arithmetic. 2764

"arch 10, 1976 Tape No . 1051 Nl>f - 3 '_'T' • nr.RTT : nriefly the stn tement that I made \vas that the number of people in rece ipt of short-term assistance , or able-bodied relief as it 1~as one time called, 1vas lower than it had heen for quite a number of years. And, of course, I meant the month of Janu ary in any numher of years . I did not have the figures with me yesterday so I could not ~ive an intelligent answer to the question. I would lil'e to point out that when I made the sta teMent on the radio I certainly was not trying to make political hay.

I we.nt on to say t ha t - they 11sl<ed me the queotion, h0'17 can you account for the fact that short- term assista nce i s down when unemployment is so hieh? And I indicated that it was because of LIP programmes, LEAP programmes, UIC, etc. But I failed to mention the fact that the Department of Social Services had also played a very important part and 1 would like to poin t that out in my answer. 2765

March 10, 1976 Tape no. 1052 Page 1 -mw _!:1r. Brett. The reason for questioning my figures was that the flash sheet for the month of January indicated that there had been an increase of some 14%, and I think the figures given rough, around the 6,000 or 7,000 number. Now I do not know where Statistics Canada got their figures, and quite frankly I could not care less. But I do have figures that come from the accounts division of my department.

These figures are accepted by the federal government for repayment under CAP, and I would like to read them out, which, of course, will prove that it is the lowest number of people that have been in receipt of short-term asaistance since 1972, and the number in January - I am sorry - January of 1972 was 8,930; in January of 1973 it was 6,274; and in January of 1974 it was 4,988; January 1975 it was 5,196; and in January of 1976 it was 4,920 cases, of course, heads of families or families. So, Mr.

Speaker, these are the correct figures as issued by, as I said, the accounts division of my department and these are the figures that are accepted by the federal government. MR. NEARY: MR. BRETT: MR. NEARY: MR. BRETT: HR. MURPHY: Uow about the long-term figures? I beg your pardon? Do you have the long-term figures? Ko, I am sorry, I do not have the long-term figures. It remains pretty static. MR. BRETT: By the way for the information of the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), there has also been a fairly steady decline also over the last three or four years in the long-term.

Before I sit down I would like to point out to the House that this department did play what I think is a very important role in bringing doWn the figures, the number of families in receipt of short-term assistance. From July 1972 to March 1973, through the efforts of the staff of the department,297 people were taken off the welfare rolls and placed in either permanent, temporary or vocational 2766

March 10, 1976 Tape no. 1052 Page 2 - mw Mr. Brett. training, permanent employment, temporary employment or vocational training. Fram April 1973 to March 1974 there waa 1,115; from April 1974 to March 1975, 1,684; and from April 1975 to January 1976, 1,218, for a total of 4,314 people that this department was actually responsible for taking off the welfare roll~: and getting them into jobs. MR. MURPHY: In December 1971 when we came in there was 9,700 short-term. MR. BRETT: I think, Sir, that this should answer the questions that were put to me . yesterday~ MR.

ROBERTS: Are the figures the bon. gentleman has given different from figures the government themselves issue? MR. MURPHY: MR. ROBERTS: For the month of January? I will check them. Mr. Speaker, I do not want to get into a row with the bon. gentleman now. Let me merely ask if he would table the figures he has been reading ~I realize they are in Hansard, but it would take, you know, Hansard is three or four days in coming - if he would either table them or if he does not wish to do that perhaps if he could let us have copies of them?

I would like to check them, because there appears to be a discrepanc,, and we will have it checked, and then we will know what the story is. There is obviously an explanation. MR. BRETT: I will gladly table them, Sir, or I can give you copies, whatever you want. MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): The bon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I have the answers, but I would like to be able to table them, but they are on kind of scraps of paper, which are not very flattering or satisfactory.

The answer to Question 109, asked by the bon. gentleman from Twillingate (Mr.Smallwood) - the question is: How many men are in the Newfoundland Constabulary, and 2767

March 10, 1976 Tape no . 1052 Page 3 Mr. Hickman, 'iihat is the total annual eost of this f~rce? Answer - there are 222 men in the Nmoundland Conatabtllary, that is officers and men. The total annual cost to the treasury of the Newfoundland Constabulary for the fiscal, year 1975-1976 is $3,235,900. The 8JUliWer to Question 320 by the hoil. gentleman from Twillingat-e (Mr. Smallwood) which had been direcl!ed to the hon.

Ministe .r of Provincial Affairs - it should have been dir.ected t .o me - the ques -tion is: Supply a statement showing the annual: cost of the office and establishment of the Chief Ele~toral Officer, inel®ing All salaries and all other expenses? . The answer- the cost to the treasury of the general election including all of the above is $613,294 as of December 1, 1975. 2768

March 10, 1976 Tape no. 1053 MR • . SMALLWOOD: That is the last election. MR. HICKMAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker. Page 1 - mw lfuen all expenses have been paid it is anticipated that the total cost will be $632,400. MR. R{)BERTS: Does that include the two or three by-elections? No provision has been made for those, MR. HICKMAN: The question was, the cost of the last general election, Mr. Speaker. MR. ROBERTS: We have not settled it yet. MR.

HICKMAN: Also the answer to Question 98, asked by the han. gentleman from Twillingate (Mr.Smallwood), seeking a statement showing the number of magistrates, their salary range and the basis on which this range exists • The answer, Mr. Speaker, is that there are thirty-two magistrates in the provincial courts of Newfoundland at this time who are paid on the basis of one of the two following salary scales; (

a) legally trained, $20,000 to $30,000 per annum; non-legally trained,$16,000 to $26,000 per annum. The last part of Question 98 is: And the basis on which this range exists?

Han. gentlemen will recall that the report of Judge Geoffrey L.Steele into the magistry in Newfoundland recommended that there be two salary scales - I am not sure if that is the correct wording - but in any event that there had to be a recognition of legally trained magistrates in the hope that in ·the future- and this I say certainly without casting any reflection at all on the very competent lay magistrates who occupy the benches of the provincial courts in Newfoundland - but that in the future we may he ahle to attract legally trained persons to the benches. MR. SMALLHOOD: \~ould the hon.

Minister of Justice tell me whether the work done and to be done by the two classes of magistrates, those legally trained and those not,differs? Or do both kinds of magistrates handle the same kinds of cases? Or are non-legally trained magistrates 2769

March 10, 1976 Tape no. 1053 Page 2 - mw Mr. Smallwoo4. barred from handling certain cases that can be handled by those legal trained? There is a difference in pay, is there a difference in the work? MR. HICKMAN: No, Mr. Speaker, there is no difference in the work in the sense that the jurisdiction for the provincial courts is the same throughout the Province.

What has been happening in Newfoundland is that, particularly during the past seven or eight years, we have seen a reasonably large number of lawyers moving into rural Newfoundland to practice which, you know, is a very good thing, and as we get more and more lawyers we seem to find that the magistrates on the bench are being subjected to lengthy arguments on procedure and evidence, and in any event the royal commission was very firm and very strong that government adopt, as a matter of policy, that in time we have legally trained magistrates. That is not very far off, Mr. Speaker. That is less than eight years.

I would think that within eight years they will all be legally trained. Mr. Speaker, the answer to Question 107 asked by the hon. gentleman from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood), "is there an arrangement under which members of the Newfoundland Constabulary may get training by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police? If so, what is the cost and how many members of the Newfoundland Constabulary have received such training and at what cost to the treasury?

The answer is there is an arrangement which has been ongoing for the past number of years,really since 1949,whereby members of the Newfoundland Constabulary may get training by the Royal canadian Mounted Police in various courses. There is a maximum of four members per year permitted to receive such training. This year - that would be 1975 - two members received breathalizer training and two members received I.D. training at the following cost to the treasury; (

a) breathalizer 2770

'1arch 10, 1976. Tape 1054 RH - 1 MR. JIICKHA'l: training, no cost for two members, training carrien out at St. John'~: (h)I.n. traininp.:, approximate total cost of $2,20'1 for two mernhers which included travel to Ottawa and return, meals and accommodation, etc. ~'IR. SHALLWOOD: Cost to the Treasury - ~m. J!ICK'~AN: - of Ne~vfoundland. HR. SHALL',.)fl(lD: Tlut not charged hy the R.C.H.P. ~1R. HICIOIAN: ~Ia, charp,ed hy the, I think, is the Police College. •m. S!!AL UJOOD : That is the cost to the Treasury. I ~Jl. II:(ClOlJ\N: Yes, yes. I.D., identification division.

The answer to (]nest ion 1'11\ ;• To table a copy of the current contract he tween Newfound) ancl ;:md Otta\Va for the employment by the Government of Newfoundland of members of the lloyal Canadian l ~ounted Police. How many members of the !loyal Canadian rlounted l'olice are presently employed in Newfoundland !,y the \l e-~<foundlancl Government? Hhat is the total cost to the l'<e~vfoundland II r.overnment of the men so employed? Mr.

Speaker, I table copies of two current contracts between the Government of Canada and the Government of the Province of Newfoundland covering the employment of the R.C.M.P. in this Province. One is the ~rovincial contract and the other is a municipal contract which covers the policing of the city of Corner Brook. There are a total of 403 members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police presently employed in Newfoundland - ~m. SMALLWOOD: ny the government. ' 11~. lliCKI'1AN: - hy the government. The total cost to the Newfoundland Government for the current fiscal year is $5,437,600. HR.

S'1ALLWOOD: If I could have a few minutes, Mr. Speaker, 1•ould the minister allmv me: What proportion is that of the total cost of the R.C.M.l'. operating in l'<ewfoundland for the Newfoundland Government- not countinr, any R.C.M.P. who may he operating for the Government of r';marla - but for the }lewfoundland Government, that $5.5 million is what nroportion of what is costing the Government of Canada? Mr. Speaker, I do not want to be held to this answer because T have to give it off the top of my head. The formula set forth in the 2771

Harch 10, 1976. MR. IHCT<YIAN: Tape 1054 RH- 2 contract is that the Government of Newfoundland pays fifty per cent of the salary cost of R.C.~!.P. officers and men under the provincial contract. As of now we have - MR. SMALLWOOD: Their wages. HR. HICKMAN: Their wages. We pay nothing on capital account which is very, very substantial. We pay- well there is a bit of an argument has been going on for ye~rs and I believe it is in the Auditor General's report again about paying the cost of a stenographer in Corner Brook who works in the R.C.M.P. but - MR.. SI'IALLWOOD: Cars and planes and boats. MR.

HICKl~: Cars and planes and that sort of thing are paid for by the Government of Canada. How much longer this will continue is now in the hands of the Solicitor General of Canada who seems to think that we have been taking unfair advantage of the ~ederal Government act. But none of the Provinces agree with him.

But on the other hand there have been two very fantastic submissions or bills submitted to the Government of Canada by Quebec and Ontario for many hundreds of millions of dollars on the grounds that for many years the other eight Provinces have been receiving a bit of a bargain from Ottawa with respect to policing services that they chose to re1ect themselves,and now they have come along with the astounding submission that they should he reimbursed that cost. MR. ROBERTS: It is a shame. MR. HICKMAN: It is a shame.

But unfortunately I have a feeling that that may be showing up in the attitude of the Government of Canada towards the eight contracting Provinces that they are- even though they properly refused to accept it, they are conscience of the fact that both Quebec and Ontario seem to have more than three members of Parliament. MR. ROBERTS: HR. HICKMAN: That is why Quebec is getting the Olympic debt paid. Quebec is getting - are they?

Well, I hope that what the hen. the Leader of the Opposition has just said with resnect to the Government of Canada paying for the Olympic debts is wrong, totally wrong because it is totall