British Columbia Hansard — Tuesday, July 16, 2013 (40th Parliament, 1st Session) (20130716pm-Hansard-v3n4) (20130716pm Hansard v3n4)

20130716pm-Hansard-v3n4

British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

First Session, 40th Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY (HANSARD) THE HONOURABLE LINDA REID, SPEAKER ISSN 0709- 1281 (Print) ISSN 1499-2175 (Online) Tuesday, July 16, 2013 Aft ernoon Sitting Volume 3, Number 4

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Her Honour the Honourable Judith Guichon, OBC First Session, 40th Parliament SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Linda Reid EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council .............................................................................................................. Hon. Christy Clark Deputy Premier and Minister of Natural Gas Development and Minister Responsible for Housing ......................Hon.

Rich Coleman Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation ......................................................................................................... Hon. John Rustad Minister of Advanced Education ............................................................................................................................................ Hon. Amrik Virk Minister of Agriculture ............................................................................................................................................................... Hon.

Pat Pimm Minister of Children and Family Development ....................................................................................................... Hon. Stephanie Cadieux Minister of Community, Sport and Cultural Development ........................................................................................... Hon. Coralee Oakes Minister of Education ..................................................................................................................................................... Hon.

Peter Fassbender Minister of Energy and Mines and Minister Responsible for Core Review .....................................................................Hon. Bill Bennett Minister of Environment ..........................................................................................................................................................Hon. Mary Polak Minister of Finance .................................................................................................................................................. Hon.

Michael de Jong, QC Minister of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations......................................................................................Hon. Steve Th omson Minister of Health ............................................................................................................................................................... Hon. Dr. Terry Lake Minister of International Trade and Minister Responsible for Asia Pacifi c Strategy and Multiculturalism ..................Hon.

Teresa Wat Minister of Jobs, Tourism and Skills Training and Minister Responsible for Labour ...................................................Hon. Shirley Bond Minister of State for Tourism and Small Business ....................................................................................................Hon. Naomi Y amamoto Minister of Justice ...............................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Suzanne Anton Minister of Social Development and Social Innovation..................................................................................................... Hon. Don McRae Minister of Technology, Innovation and Citizens' Services ................................................................................... Hon. Andrew Wilkinson Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure ......................................................................................................................Hon.

Todd Stone LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Leader of the Offi cial Opposition ......................................................................................................................................................Adrian Dix Deputy Speaker .............................................................................................................................................................................Douglas Horne Assistant Deputy Speaker ...............................................................................................................................................................

Raj Chouhan Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ....................................................................................................................................... Marc Dalton Clerk of the Legislative Assembly ................................................................................................................................................... Craig James Deputy Clerk and Clerk of Committees .................................................................................................................................

Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sessional Law Clerk ...................................................................................................................................................Roderick MacArthur, QC Clerk Consultant ..............................................................................................................................................E. George MacMinn, OBC, QC Sergeant-at-Arms ................................................................................................................................................................................. Gary Lenz

ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Anton, Hon. Suzanne (BC Liberal) .............................. Vancouver-Fraserview Ashton, Dan (BC Liberal).....................................................................Penticton Austin, Robin (NDP) ................................................................................ Skeena Bains, Harry (NDP) ....................................................................Surrey-Newton Barnett, Donna (BC Liberal) ............................................... Cariboo-Chilcotin Bennett, Hon.

Bill (BC Liberal) ...................................................Kootenay East Bernier, Mike (BC Liberal) ................................................... Peace River South Bing, Dr. Doug (BC Liberal) ................................ Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Bond, Hon. Shirley (BC Liberal) ........................... Prince George–Valemount Cadieux, Hon. Stephanie (BC Liberal) ................................Surrey-Cloverdale Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP) .................................Vancouver–West End Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ...........................................................

Burnaby-Edmonds Coleman, Hon. Rich (BC Liberal) .......................... Fort Langley–Aldergrove Conroy, Katrine (NDP) .............................................................. Kootenay West Corrigan, Kathy (NDP) ..................................................... Burnaby–Deer Lake Dalton, Marc (BC Liberal) ............................................. Maple Ridge–Mission Darcy, Judy (NDP) ..................................................................New Westminster de Jong, Hon. Michael, QC (BC Liberal) ..............................

Abbotsford West Dix, Adrian (NDP) ............................................................Vancouver-Kingsway Donaldson, Doug (NDP) ......................................................................... Stikine Eby, David (NDP) ..........................................................Vancouver–Point Grey Elmore, Mable (NDP) ................................................... Vancouver-Kensington Farnworth, Mike (NDP) ............................................................ Port Coquitlam Fassbender, Hon. Peter (BC Liberal) ...................................

Surrey-Fleetwood Fleming, Rob (NDP) .......................................................... Victoria–Swan Lake Foster, Eric (BC Liberal) .......................................................Vernon-Monashee Fraser, Scott (NDP) ............................................................Alberni–Pacifi c Rim Gibson, Simon (BC Liberal) ............................................. Abbotsford-Mission Hamilton, Scott (BC Liberal) ...........................................................Delta North Hammell, Sue (NDP) ....................................................

Surrey–Green Timbers Heyman, George (NDP) .................................................... Vancouver-Fairview Hogg, Gordon (BC Liberal) ............................................... Surrey–White Rock Holman, Gary (NDP) .......................................Saanich North and the Islands Horgan, John (NDP) .......................................................................

Juan de Fuca Horne, Douglas (BC Liberal) ..............................Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Hunt, Marvin (BC Liberal) ....................................................Surrey-Panorama Huntington, Vicki (Ind.) ..................................................................Delta South James, Carole (NDP) .........................................................Victoria–Beacon Hill Karagianis, Maurine (NDP) ........................................Esquimalt–Royal Roads Krog, Leonard Eugene (NDP) .............................................................

Nanaimo Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP) ........................... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Kyllo, Greg (BC Liberal) ........................................................................ Shuswap Lake, Hon. Dr.

Terry (BC Liberal) ....................Kamloops–North Th ompson Larson, Linda (BC Liberal) .........................................Boundary-Similkameen Lee, Richard T. (BC Liberal) ......................................................Burnaby North Letnick, Norm (BC Liberal) ........................................Kelowna–Lake Country Macdonald, Norm (NDP) ....................................Columbia River–Revelstoke McRae, Hon. Don (BC Liberal) ..................................................

Comox Valley Martin, John (BC Liberal) ..................................................................Chilliwack Morris, Mike (BC Liberal) ..................................... Prince George–Mackenzie Mungall, Michelle (NDP) ..........................................................Nelson-Creston Oakes, Hon. Coralee (BC Liberal) .............................................Cariboo North Pimm, Hon. Pat (BC Liberal) ...............................................Peace River North Plecas, Darryl (BC Liberal) ....................................................Abbotsford South Polak, Hon.

Mary (BC Liberal) .............................................................. Langley Popham, Lana (NDP) ...................................................................Saanich South Ralston, Bruce (NDP) ................................................................ Surrey-Whalley Reid, Hon. Linda (BC Liberal) ..................................................Richmond East Reimer, Linda (BC Liberal) ........................................

Port Moody–Coquitlam Rice, Jennifer (NDP) ........................................................................North Coast Robinson, Selina (NDP) .............................................Coquitlam-Maillardville Routley, Bill (NDP) .................................................................. Cowichan Valley Routley, Doug (NDP) ............................................Nanaimo–North Cowichan Rustad, Hon. John (BC Liberal) ................................................

Nechako Lakes Shin, Jane Jae Kyung (NDP) ...............................................Burnaby-Lougheed Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ................................... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Simpson, Shane (NDP) ..................................................... Vancouver-Hastings Stilwell, Michelle (BC Liberal) ........................................ Parksville-Qualicum Stilwell, Dr. Moira (BC Liberal) ........................................ Vancouver-Langara Stone, Hon. Todd (BC Liberal) .........................

Kamloops–South Th ompson Sturdy, Jordan (BC Liberal) ..................................West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Sullivan, Sam (BC Liberal) ...........................................Vancouver–False Creek Sultan, Ralph (BC Liberal) ..................................... West Vancouver–Capilano Tegart, Jackie (BC Liberal) ............................................................Fraser-Nicola Th omson, Hon. Steve (BC Liberal) .......................................Kelowna-Mission Th ornthwaite, Jane (BC Liberal) ..........................

North Vancouver–Seymour Th roness, Laurie (BC Liberal).................................................Chilliwack-Hope Trevena, Claire (NDP) .................................................................... North Island Virk, Hon. Amrik (BC Liberal) ............................................. Surrey-Tynehead Wat, Hon. Teresa (BC Liberal) .............................................. Richmond Centre Weaver, Dr. Andrew (Ind.) .......................................... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Wilkinson, Hon. Andrew (BC Liberal) ........................ Vancouver-Quilchena Y amamoto, Hon.

Naomi (BC Liberal) ................ North Vancouver–Lonsdale Y ap, John (BC Liberal) ......................................................Richmond-Steveston Vacant ...................................................................................... Westside-Kelowna LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Mission ......................................................................Simon Gibson Abbotsford South ............................................................................Darryl Plecas Abbotsford West ...................................................... Hon.

Michael de Jong, QC Alberni–Pacifi c Rim .......................................................................... Scott Fraser Boundary-Similkameen ................................................................ Linda Larson Burnaby–Deer Lake ................................................................... Kathy Corrigan Burnaby-Edmonds .........................................................................

Raj Chouhan Burnaby-Lougheed .............................................................Jane Jae Kyung Shin Burnaby North .............................................................................. Richard T. Lee Cariboo-Chilcotin ........................................................................Donna Barnett Cariboo North .................................................................... Hon. Coralee Oakes Chilliwack .........................................................................................

John Martin Chilliwack-Hope ....................................................................... Laurie Th roness Columbia River–Revelstoke .................................................. Norm Macdonald Comox Valley...........................................................................Hon. Don McRae Coquitlam–Burke Mountain .....................................................Douglas Horne Coquitlam-Maillardville........................................................... Selina Robinson Cowichan Valley ................................................................................

Bill Routley Delta North ..................................................................................Scott Hamilton Delta South ...............................................................................Vicki Huntington Esquimalt–Royal Roads .....................................................Maurine Karagianis Fort Langley–Aldergrove ...................................................Hon. Rich Coleman Fraser-Nicola....................................................................................

Jackie Tegart Juan de Fuca .....................................................................................John Horgan Kamloops–North Th ompson ............................................ Hon. Dr. Terry Lake Kamloops–South Th ompson ..................................................Hon. Todd Stone Kelowna–Lake Country ............................................................... Norm Letnick Kelowna-Mission .............................................................. Hon. Steve Th omson Kootenay East .......................................................................... Hon.

Bill Bennett Kootenay West ............................................................................ Katrine Conroy Langley.......................................................................................Hon. Mary Polak Maple Ridge–Mission ..................................................................... Marc Dalton Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows ........................................................ Dr. Doug Bing Nanaimo ........................................................................... Leonard Eugene Krog Nanaimo–North Cowichan .........................................................

Doug Routley Nechako Lakes ........................................................................ Hon. John Rustad Nelson-Creston ........................................................................Michelle Mungall New Westminster ............................................................................... Judy Darcy North Coast......................................................................................Jennifer Rice North Island .................................................................................. Claire Trevena North Vancouver–Lonsdale ........................................Hon.

Naomi Y amamoto North Vancouver–Seymour ................................................. Jane Th ornthwaite Oak Bay–Gordon Head ...................................................... Dr. Andrew Weaver Parksville-Qualicum .................................................................Michelle Stilwell Peace River North ...................................................................... Hon. Pat Pimm Peace River South ............................................................................Mike Bernier Penticton............................................................................................

Dan Ashton Port Coquitlam ..........................................................................Mike Farnworth Port Moody–Coquitlam ................................................................Linda Reimer Powell River–Sunshine Coast ................................................. Nicholas Simons Prince George–Mackenzie ............................................................. Mike Morris Prince George–Valemount ................................................... Hon. Shirley Bond Richmond Centre ......................................................................Hon.

Teresa Wat Richmond East ..........................................................................Hon. Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston ..............................................................................John Y ap Saanich North and the Islands .................................................... Gary Holman Saanich South ................................................................................

Lana Popham Shuswap ................................................................................................Greg Kyllo Skeena .............................................................................................. Robin Austin Stikine ....................................................................................... Doug Donaldson Surrey-Cloverdale ....................................................... Hon. Stephanie Cadieux Surrey-Fleetwood ........................................................... Hon.

Peter Fassbender Surrey–Green Timbers .................................................................. Sue Hammell Surrey-Newton ................................................................................. Harry Bains Surrey-Panorama ........................................................................... Marvin Hunt Surrey-Tynehead ......................................................................Hon. Amrik Virk Surrey-Whalley..............................................................................

Bruce Ralston Surrey–White Rock ....................................................................... Gordon Hogg Vancouver-Fairview ..................................................................George Heyman Vancouver–False Creek ................................................................... Sam Sullivan Vancouver-Fraserview ......................................................Hon.

Suzanne Anton Vancouver-Hastings ....................................................................Shane Simpson Vancouver-Kensington .................................................................Mable Elmore Vancouver-Kingsway..........................................................................Adrian Dix Vancouver-Langara .................................................................Dr. Moira Stilwell Vancouver–Mount Pleasant .........................................

Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Vancouver–Point Grey .........................................................................David Eby Vancouver-Quilchena ................................................ Hon. Andrew Wilkinson Vancouver–West End ...............................................

Spencer Chandra Herbert Vernon-Monashee ...............................................................................Eric Foster Victoria–Beacon Hill .......................................................................Carole James Victoria–Swan Lake.........................................................................Rob Fleming West Vancouver–Capilano .............................................................

Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Sea to Sky ..........................................................Jordan Sturdy Westside-Kelowna ......................................................................................Vacant Party Standings: BC Liberal 48; New Democratic 34; Independent 2; Vacant 1

CONTENTS Tuesday, July 16, 2013 Aft ernoon Sitting Page Routine Business Introductions by Members ....................................................................................................................................................... 545 Statements .................................................................................................................................................................................. 545 Fire at Tudor House Pub in Esquimalt M.

Karagianis Introductions by Members ....................................................................................................................................................... 545 Statements (Standing Order 25B) ........................................................................................................................................... 546 Protection of sexually exploited and at-risk youth K. Corrigan Restoration of historic railway station and museum building in White Rock G. Hogg University Neighbourhoods Association in Vancouver–Point Grey area D. Eby Guide-outfi tters M.

Morris Response to fi re in Bella Bella J. Rice Burn camp for children and B.C. Professional Fire Fighters Burn Fund J. Th ornthwaite Oral Questions ........................................................................................................................................................................... 548 Communications regarding government staff member and multicultural outreach strategy A. Dix Hon. T. Wat Multicultural outreach strategy investigation and staff member mentioned in communications A. Dix Hon. T. Wat J. Horgan Hon. A. Wilkinson M. Farnworth J.

Kwan Communications regarding multicultural outreach strategy and database of information M. Elmore Hon. A. Wilkinson S. Hammell Use of e-mail accounts by government staff involved in multicultural outreach strategy H. Bains Hon. A. Wilkinson Call for independent investigation into multicultural outreach strategy S. Simpson Hon. A. Wilkinson L. Krog Petitions ...................................................................................................................................................................................... 552 N. Macdonald

Orders of the Day Committee of Supply ................................................................................................................................................................ 553 Estimates: Ministry of Energy and Mines Hon. B. Bennett J. Horgan S. Fraser D. Donaldson S. Simpson Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room Committee of Supply ................................................................................................................................................................ 583 Estimates: Ministry of International Trade (continued) B. Ralston Hon. T. Wat M.

Elmore Proceedings in the Birch Room Committee of Supply ................................................................................................................................................................ 599 Estimates: Ministry of Community, Sport and Cultural Development (continued) L. Popham Hon. C. Oakes Estimates: Other appropriations Estimates: Ministry of Agriculture Hon. P . Pimm N. Simons V . Huntington H. Bains J. Darcy L. Popham

TUESDAY , JULY 16, 2013 Th e House met at 1:33 p.m. [Madame Speaker in the chair.] Routine Business Introductions by Members D. Horne: Madame Speaker, it is with great pleas- ure that I introduce two of your guests today, Mike McSweeney with the Cement Association of Canada and Jonathan Moser with Lafarge. May the House make them welcome. C. James: I have a constituent of mine in the gallery today. She is an elected school trustee from the board of education in Victoria. Would the House please make Diane McNally very welcome. Hon. T. Wat: It is a great pleasure to have with us to- day Mr.

Gerald Proctor from Target Canada. Aft er a long and rich history in the United States, they have joined the Canadian marketplace. Earlier this year Target Canada saw the opening of 24 stores in B.C. [1335] As the MLA for Richmond Centre, I am so pleased to see Target Canada open one of the 24 stores at Lansdowne mall. Communities stretching across our province, from Prince George to Cranbrook to Nanaimo, can all enjoy the shopping, of course, and the jobs Target Canada brings to B.C. Please join me in welcoming Target Canada to the House and to B.C. Statements FIRE AT TUDOR HOUSE PUB IN ESQUIMALT M.

Karagianis: Today, there was a terrible tragedy in my community. Th e Tudor House, a local Esquimalt landmark for 110 years, sustained a major fi re overnight. Only the outstanding eff orts of our Esquimalt fi re depart- ment kept the blaze contained. Fortunately, there was no loss of life, no injuries and no damage to any surround- ing buildings either. I would hope the House will join me in thanking the fi refi ghters, the Victoria police department, the emer- gency personnel and fi rst responders for their wonderful hard work in keeping this fi re contained. Introductions by Members V .

Huntington: Madame Speaker, I just wanted to say it's not only your riding that hosts cement manufacturers in the Lower Mainland, as Delta South is home to Lehigh Cement. I also want to introduce Mike McSweeney and the association. Hon. A. Virk: I have a guest in the House, a national- level athlete, who has been carded by the Olympic com- mittee, a medallist at the Pan Am Games, three times a Canadian champion and two times a North American champion in karate, representing Canada. Now he's teaching the next generation to rise to the national stage. Could the House welcome Shaun Dhillon, please. K.

Conroy: I'd like to introduce a friend of one of our researchers, Kenn McLaren. Christopher McMillan is here today from Calgary. He's visiting throughout B.C. He works for the NDP in Alberta, and he's here to see how we're doing in B.C. Would you all join me in mak- ing him welcome. Hon. C. Oakes: Hon. Speaker, I would like to intro- duce to the House…. While they're not here today, I had the great privilege last evening to meet 27 amazing groups in our community of greater Victoria, of the arts and cultural community, from Ballet Victoria to theatre groups to the Victoria Y outh Orchestra.

My offi ce will be open — to 124. If you ever have guests or individuals in the community and you're looking for something amazing to do in greater Victoria, please come to our offi ce. We'll have the brochures and the in- formation there so that you, too, can enjoy the fabulous organizations that we have. M. Mungall: I'd like the House to please make wel- come Norma Strachan and Nolan Eddy. Th ey're both from the organization ASPECT, which is a provincial as- sociation of 175 community employment agencies. Th ey do tremendous work on the ground, helping people get jobs every day in British Columbia.

Please welcome them. Hon. S. Th omson: I'm pleased to welcome into the gallery today representatives from the Guide Outfi tters Association of B.C. We have with us Mark Werner, president, from Prince George; Michael Schneider, the vice-president, from Prince George; and Scott Ellis, their executive director, from Surrey. I know they've met with a number of our colleagues, and I'm pleased to wel- come them here today. Th ey're a great organization and do great work on behalf of the guide outfi tting industry of British Columbia. We're pleased to ask the House to make them welcome today. E.

Foster: It gives me great pleasure today to intro- duce four lovely ladies from my community. Th ey're here representing the Queen Silver Star Excellence program, an ambassador program. We have Queen Silver Star, Emily Pfannschmidt; and Princess Silver Star, Antonya 545

British Columbia Debates546 Tuesday, July 16, 2013 Crosby. Th ey're accompanied by two chaperones, Coleen Noel and Karen Humphreys. I would like the House to please make them welcome. [1340] Statements (Standing Order 25B) PROTECTION OF SEXUALLY EXPLOITED AND AT-RISK YOUTH K. Corrigan: I'm sure all of us have come across those kids that you just know have the odds stacked against them. Th e stats have proven over and over that we can predict pretty early on who are at risk.

For young people there are all too many predators out there who could see the same thing and seek to sexually exploit the most vul- nerable girls and boys. The Burnaby–New Westminster Task Force on Sexually Exploited and At-Risk Y outh has been working since 1998 to address the sexual abuse of children and youth in the commercial sex trade. It is a subcommittee of Burnaby council's community policing committee and is a multisectoral coalition, with representatives from a variety of local and provincial government agencies, the RCMP and community-based non-profi t agencies.

Th e task force recently completed its second count of sexually exploited youth and found 217 confi rmed or suspected or at risk. Th ese are just the youth that are connected to social services, so the numbers are, in real- ity, likely much, much higher. Some sobering trends and statistics have emerged from the count. Th e numbers are up from 146 in 2011. One in three is under 15 years of age, 80 percent are 17 or younger, and 86 percent are girls. Sexual exploitation is going underground, moving from street exploitation towards internet and pimp or boyfriend exploitation.

Surprisingly, 83 percent attend school, and almost two-thirds live at home. Th ese young and vulnerable kids need targeted services, youth out- reach, detox and addiction treatment, safe housing and health services. As a society we have a choice. We can do the wrong thing, which is ignoring or giving up on the problem, or we can do the right thing, which is to wrap a protective net around our young people. If we make that choice, perhaps we won't have 217 sexually exploited young people next time the count is done. RESTORATION OF HISTORIC RAILW AY STATION AND MUSEUM BUILDING IN WHITE ROCK G.

Hogg: One hundred years ago White Rock was a small community of some 400 people, but the construc- tion of a railway route along the shoreline of Semiahmoo Bay soon changed the quiet settlement into a booming nerve centre. Th e catalyst for this change was the con- struction of the White Rock railway station, which was completed 100 years ago. What started as a legal requirement for customs and immigration turned into a centre of activity. Th roughout its history, the station has taken on multiple roles in the community.

Some would pass through the station during their daily commute to Vancouver, while others would exchange the latest gossip with staff . Trains carried com- mercial products over the international border daily. When automobiles became the favoured form of travel, railways increasingly struggled for passengers. Th e sta- tion felt this hit, and by the mid-'70s passenger service from White Rock ended. However, this did not mean the end of the station, simply a transformation into a com- munity arts and cultural centre.

Th e White Rock Museum was started in 1967 by a group of dedicated women, and it found its home there in 1976. In 2011 an extensive renovation was complet- ed. Th e restoration returned the building to its original 1913 architecture. A stunning breezeway was restored, allowing for a dramatic entryway, connecting the city to the waterfront and vastly improving public access to the museum. In addition, an expanded exhibit gallery was created, archival vaults were created and improved ad- ministrative staff 's…. Th is restoration brought a new vi- brancy to this important historic landmark.

Th e station's life over the past 100 years has certainly not been a simple one. Th e structure stands as an icon for our community, telling a history that continues to grow and evolve. Indeed, without the station, the city of White Rock would not have become the thriving com- munity it is today. My thanks to members and staff of the White Rock Museum and Archives Society. Th ey continue to remind us that preserving our past helps to defi ne our present and gives us confi dence for our future. UNIVERSITY NEIGHBOURHOODS ASSOCIATION IN V ANCOUVER–POINT GREY AREA D.

Eby: One of the unique communities in Vancouver– Point Grey is the collection of neighbourhoods located on the peninsula at the University of British Columbia. Now part of the city of Vancouver, these neighbour- hoods are governed directly by the province. To deliver basic services, the province established the University Neighbourhoods Association as well as an advisory com- mittee for the University Endowment Lands.

While the University Neighbourhoods Association, or UNA, started as an administrative vehicle of convenience, it has grown into a vibrant and eff ective community- building and advocacy group, thanks to the eff orts of their volunteer board and countless neighbourhood vol- unteers.

British Columbia DebatesTuesday, July 16, 2013 547 [1345] According to the UNA, the members of the association volunteer over 2,000 hours every year to the commun- ity. With a quick glance at the website of the UNA, you'll see the fruits of their labours — cycling resource clinics, family fun days, volunteer workshops, garden parties, midsummer markets. Th e list is endless. I attended this year's volunteer-run and -coordinated Canada Day celebration organized by the UNA.

It was clear to everyone there that the UNA and their volunteers are the core of a vibrant community spirit in and around the University of British Columbia. All is not perfect for the UNA. Th ey have to work hard to be properly consulted on roads and traffi c in their neighbourhood to ensure safety for school children. Th ey have a signifi cant community mandate but no offi cially recognized role in planning.

And despite a community understanding of the need to increase the role of what is still just a society, they have been told that no governance reform will take place until they reach consensus among the 8,000 residents they serve. Despite these challenges, the UNA has matured to become an essential part of the community fabric. Few would want to imagine life in UBC's neighbourhoods without them.

Please join me in thanking the board members of the UNA — Richard Alexander, Th omas Beyer, Erica Frank, Charles Menzies, Ian Burgess, Nancy Knight and Caroline Wong — as well as their community volun- teers for their eff orts to fulfi l a provincial responsibility and doing so in a way that builds their community and makes it better every day. GUIDE-OUTFITTERS M. Morris: A few moments ago this House warm- ly greeted the president, vice-president and executive director of the Guide Outfi tters Association of British Columbia.

Now I'd like to take this opportunity to intro- duce this House to the Guide Outfi tters Association. Back in the 1800s people worldwide recognized that B.C. was home to one of North America's most mag- nifi cent big-game populations. Local hunters were ap- proached and commenced guiding services to big-game hunters. Th is can be considered the origin of the provin- cial adventure tourism industry. Th e British Columbia government issued its fi rst guid- ing licence in 1913, and guiding territories were estab- lished in the late 1940s.

In 1961 this Legislature provided the guide-outfi tting industry with the exclusive rights to guide non-resident big-game hunters in their designated guiding territory. Today guide-outfi tters are still a major component of British Columbia's tourism sector, contributing over $116 million in revenue each year and employing over 2,000 people in rural British Columbia. Guide-outfi tters have also contributed nearly a half million pounds of meat to First Nations, community groups and other or- ganizations across British Columbia since 1996.

Th e daily revenue per client is the highest in all tour- ism sectors in the province. As conservationists since 1981, guide-outfi tters have contributed more than $120 million towards conservation eff orts administered by the Habitat Conservation Trust Foundation. Over half of these funds were provided by non-resident licences, permits, royalties and fees. Guide-outfi tters have developed an understanding of wildlife habitat within their guiding territories.

Th e success of the exclusive guide territory model in British Columbia was quickly recognized across North America as an eff ective wildlife management tool and adopted in other areas in Canada. Big-game populations are healthy and growing in British Columbia, in part due to the conservation ef- forts of the guide-outfi tters and the science-based wild- life management policies developed by government in cooperation with the guide-outfi tters. RESPONSE TO FIRE IN BELLA BELLA J. Rice: Early this past Friday morning a fire tore through an important building in Bella Bella on the cen- tral coast of B.C.

Unfortunately, the fi re gutted the band store, which is the only grocery store in this remote com- munity in the heart of the Great Bear rainforest. It also gutted the post offi ce, the library, a café, a non-profi t soci- ety and other services. Th is building is also an important gathering space and hub of activity for this community of around 1,500 people. Th ankfully, no one was hurt in the fi re, but the loss of these services will be felt by the community for a very long time. Interim emergency services have ensured that people have access to food and essentials.

Speaking with Reg Moody on Friday, I was extreme- ly impressed with how quickly the community pulled together, creating a makeshift store inside a church with volunteer labour, and how forward-thinking and posi- tive community members were despite their tragic loss. Th e Heiltsuk Tribal Council is accepting monetary do- nations on behalf of the Bella Bella community through a website called rebuildbellabella.tumblr.com. Funds raised will support immediate assistance for families in need and will help initiate the process of rebuilding.

Any assistance is welcome. [1350] Another huge loss to the blaze was the Thistalalh Memorial Library, a non-profi t community literacy in- itiative. Jess Housty, a Heiltsuk community leader, tells me today that the library is completely unsalvageable, and they're starting from scratch. Any support would be greatly appreciated. Book donations can dropped off at various locations across the province, including my con-

British Columbia Debates548 Tuesday, July 16, 2013 stituency offi ce in Prince Rupert. As Bella Bella recovers from the fi re and rebuilds, their fi rst priority for the library will be locating children's literature. Following that, their most beloved sections included indigenous literature, international fi ction, eco- literature, natural history and non-fi ction. If members in the House or anyone visits bellabellalibrary.com, people can fi nd local contacts around the province who are col- lecting books. And again, people can help alleviate im- mediate needs by visiting rebuildbellabella.tumblr.com.

Jess tells me today that the community is shaken but are very committed to rebuilding and are incredibly grateful for the outreach and support. BURN CAMP FOR CHILDREN AND B.C. PROFESSIONAL FIRE FIGHTERS BURN FUND J. Th ornthwaite: Last weekend I had the pleasure of addressing families at the 2013 Burn Camp kickoff . Th e camp is put on by the B.C. Professional Fire Fighters Burn Fund and is designed to help children aged six to 18 who are burn survivors heal their physical and emo- tional wounds.

Healing a burn patient can be a long and painful process, but it is sustained by hope, conviction and unparalleled courage. Confronting the challenges imposed by a lifetime of pain or disfi gurement is just the beginning for most survivors, who must also struggle to heal the acute emotional and psychological trauma that can be equally painful. Th is year's Burn Camp saw 74 campers take

part in a week-long trip to Camp Latona. Th ey are up there now and are joined by nearly 70 counsellors and support staff , many of whom are burn survivors themselves and are working to provide a fun, safe experience that encourages healing, personal growth and empowerment. Th e Fire Fighters Burn Fund is supported by our prov- ince's fi refi ghter locals, and because of their ongoing commitment, the Burn Camp has been able to help close to 1,000 children since it began nearly 20 years ago. Our government is also very supportive of the Burn Fund. Th is year alone we've given $120,000 to the organization.

Additionally, North Vancouver fi refi ghters are con- tributing $50,000 to fund the third-fl oor garden at the new Burn Fund centre, which will be built by the B.C. Professional Fire Fighters Burn Fund in Vancouver. Th is centre will provide eight short-term-stay units to accom- modate burn patients and their caregivers. I ask the House to join me in thanking our province's fi refi ghters, the Fire Fighter Burn Fund, and all the staff who make Burn Camp possible.

Th e journey from burn patient to survivor can be long and arduous, but they make that journey easier and show survivors that they don't have to do it alone. Oral Questions COMMUNICATIONS REGARDING GOVERNMENT STAFF MEMBER AND MULTICULTURAL OUTREACH STRATEGY A. Dix: My question is to the Minister of International Trade. Y esterday we asked the minister a series of ques- tions about new information in an e-mail fragment related to the government's outreach scandal. Our ques- tions were met with stonewalling. None of them were answered.

Th e e-mail, what we have of it, reads as follows: "'We will see if we can…fi nd you something else. Can you send your resume? Send it to Brian also.' Assess her response, and advise. Have Harry Bloy meet with her and explain how doing anything would damage the Premier and the party. Have him say how he will try to fi nd her work and get her back involved. Assess her response, and advise. Have Brian meet with her and do the same. Assess her re- sponse, and advise.

If need be, off er X dollars per month to do non-public work up to the election — developing her database of potential supporters." Now, the minister has had the opportunity to be fully briefed. Can the minister tell this House what damaging information there was to the Premier and to the Liberal Party that the government offi cials were attempting to hide? Hon. T. Wat: Th ank you to the member, the Leader of the Opposition, for bringing up this question yesterday and today again.

Now that I have had a chance to review the e-mail referred to by the member of the opposition, I can say that the language in the e-mail referred to by the member of the opposition was wrong, just the same as the language in the draft outreach plan was wrong. [1355] Th at's why our Premier tasked her deputy to conduct a thorough, fulsome and exhaustive review of the plan. Th e government has accepted all of the recommenda- tions. Th e review showed that there were some individ- uals who clearly have acted outside of the guidelines for public servants and for political staff .

We agree the ac- tions of these individuals were inappropriate. Th is e-mail referred to by members of the opposition falls into this category as well. It suggests actions that would be inappropriate, reinforcing the fi ndings of the Dyble report. Despite the allegations brought forward by many members of the opposition yesterday and again by the Leader of the Opposition today, the review team found no evidence — no evidence whatsoever — that the suggestions highlighted were ever considered or acted upon by the government. Madame Speaker: Th e Leader of the Opposition on a supplemental.

British Columbia DebatesTuesday, July 16, 2013 549 MULTICULTURAL OUTREACH STRATEGY INVESTIGATION AND STAFF MEMBER MENTIONED IN COMMUNICATIONS A. Dix: Well, the minister refers to a "thorough, ful- some and comprehensive review." Let me ask a very sim- ple question to the minister. Did Mr. Dyble contact and interview the individual who is the target of this e-mail? Hon. T.

Wat: As I said in my earlier answer, the Premier's deputy minister, together with three other deputy ministers — they are the senior deputy minis- ters in the government — have conducted an exhaustive, thorough and fulsome review of the plan, and they have come up with recommendations. Th eir fi ndings show that there were some individuals who clearly acted in- appropriately, and actions have been taken. As the Multiculturalism Minister, I and my staff in the Multiculturalism Ministry are engaging and connecting with the rich and talented, diverse community.

Th ey are really our competitive edge, and they are our bridge to the Asia-Pacifi c. We are so fortunate in our province to have such talented and rich, diverse communities. Th ey have close family, cultural, government and busi- ness relationships with our priority markets. We are go- ing to leverage this connection for the benefi t of British Columbians. Madame Speaker: Th e Leader of the Opposition on a supplemental. A. Dix: Clearly, this review wasn't exhaustive, thor- ough or comprehensive. I mean, the answer to the ques- tion I just asked the minister is pretty clear.

Th ey didn't bother to contact the person. It wasn't thorough. Either the review was conducted by Inspector Clouseau, which clearly isn't the case given the individuals involved, who are very senior people, or they didn't ask the questions. Th ey didn't pursue the e-mail. Th is happens to be the case. Since the minister can't answer the question, maybe I'll ask the Deputy Premier this. Have senior members of the Premier's staff contacted or attempted to contact the individual involved since the Dyble report came out? Hon. T.

Wat: May I take the opportunity to remind the Leader of the Opposition that there are 10,000 pages posted on the website? I urge members of the oppos- ition to go on the website and look at the 10,000 pages of materials. J. Horgan: To the Deputy Premier, on behalf of the absent Premier, did anyone in the Premier's offi ce inter- view the individual in question — the individual who, according to this e-mail, was off ered an inducement to not speak about damaging information that would aff ect the Premier and the Liberal Party? Did anyone in the Premier's offi ce speak to this individual? [1400] Hon. A.

Wilkinson: At the risk of being repetitive, this has been a thorough process. As soon as this issue came to light, it was referred to a senior committee of deputies. Four senior deputy ministers did a thorough review in a timely fashion before the election, reviewed 10,000 pages of documents and came to published, writ- ten conclusions. Th is was a transparent process which showed leader- ship on this side of the House, which is something that is clearly absent on that side of the House. Madame Speaker: Members will refrain from com- menting on the presence or absence of individuals in the chamber. J.

Horgan: We have a new Deputy Premier, so I'll ask the question again. Did anyone in the Premier's offi ce interview the individual in question as a part of the Dyble report or aft er the Dyble report? Hon. A. Wilkinson: I've got to say that this side of the House is proud of the process we went through. We initiated a prompt and thorough review of this, and the conclusions of that were made available to the elector- ate. Th ey passed their judgment on May 14 about the thoroughness of that process. M. Farnworth: My question is for whichever minister is playing defence today. It's quite straightforward.

In the course of Mr. Dyble's interview, did he interview the tar- get of this e-mail — yes or no? It's that simple. Hon. A. Wilkinson: Madame Speaker, I apologize for…. Madame Speaker: Minister of Technology, Innovation and Citizens' Services. Hon. A. Wilkinson: I fi rst, of course, apologize to the Chair for jumping the gun. Of course, the next apology is to my friends across the way, who haven't seemed to have read the report, which is thorough in its content, completely covers the issue, re- viewed 10,000 pages of material, which was then prompt- ly posted on open government B.C.'s website.

My friends point out that the materials were posted aft er the election because that was the statutory frame- work for review of documents. Th is government and this side of the House follow the law of the province. Madame Speaker: Th e member for Port Coquitlam on a supplemental.

British Columbia Debates550 Tuesday, July 16, 2013 M. Farnworth: We still haven't answered the question, which is: did anyone in the Dyble investigation…? Did Mr. Dyble investigate this issue by talking to the recipi- ent of this e-mail, the person named in this e-mail — yes or no? Were they interviewed? Hon. A. Wilkinson: Given that this side of the House has nothing to hide, we are delighted that the members opposite fi nally got around to reading the 10,000 pages of documents that we posted on the open government website.

Of course, we did that in the interests of transparent government, unlike the members opposite, who may re- call, during their term in government, issuing aliases for government ministers as their e-mail addresses; bulk de- letions of e-mail, sanctioned by the ministries; and min- isters, some of whom are present today, who purported to not know how to use computers. [1405] J.

Kwan: If the minister truly has nothing to hide, why doesn't he confi rm for this House and for all British Columbians that the Dyble report was, in fact, thorough and that the person in question, who was off ered hush money by the government, was in fact interviewed by the Dyble investigation? Hon. A. Wilkinson: Whether it's through a slip of the tongue or intentionally, I'm pleased that the member op- posite recognizes the thoroughness of the Dyble report.

Th at is the nature of what we do on this side of the House — to engage in processes which are fully disclos- ing the facts, fully disclosing the key information, unlike the members opposite, who exempted from freedom of information during their term…. Th ey exempted the fast ferries. Th ey exempted forest renewal. Th ey exempted the Millennium SkyTrain line, which made them completely opaque to public scrutiny. We believe in transparency, and we live that every day. J.

Kwan: Look, what we know is that the Liberal gov- ernment had a plan to off er hush money to a Liberal staff - er to stop the release of damaging information about the Premier and the Liberal Party. Th e government claims that the Dyble investigation was thorough. It's a simple question for any member of the govern- ment. Th e individual referred to in the e-mail — was that individual interviewed by the Dyble investigation — yes or no? Interjections. Madame Speaker: Hon. Members, please ensure the Chair hears both the question and the answer. Hon. A.

Wilkinson: At the risk of becoming tedious, I repeat the statement of my colleague the Minister of International Trade, who has already made it clear to this House yesterday and today that the remarks made in this e-mail were inappropriate. Th ey were wrong. Th ey were not acted upon, and there is simply no basis to proceed. COMMUNICATIONS REGARDING MULTICULTURAL OUTREACH STRATEGY AND DATABASE OF INFORMATION M. Elmore: Let's refer back to the e-mail.

It says: "If need be, off er X dollars per month to do non-public work…developing her database of public supporters." My question is for the Minister for Multiculturalism. What was the purpose of this database, and what was meant by non-public work? Hon. A. Wilkinson: W e have a report here that is 97 pages long, which was produced in record time by four senior civil servants to examine exactly the questions which my friends are now raising for the umpteenth time. Th e answers in the report are clear. Th e answers from the Minister of International Trade are clear.

Y et the mem- bers opposite seem to want to persist in this dead-end line of questioning. Th ere is no evidence that that statement in the e-mail was acted upon. Th is is simply an attempt by the mem- bers opposite to discredit the senior members of the civil service who produced the report. M. Elmore: Th e Minister for Multiculturalism knows that the letter exposed this hush money scandal and was released as part of an investigation into the Liberal gov- ernment's use of public money to build illegal contact lists for the B.C. Liberal Party.

Th e e-mail refers to "de- veloping her database of potential supporters." [1410] Does the Minister for Multiculturalism agree that this indicates that the Liberal government put its plan to use public money to build Liberal Party campaign lists into eff ect? Hon. A. Wilkinson: Th e member opposite seems to have forgotten that these issues were resolved before the election.

Recommendation 6 of the report from the sen- ior civil service stated that "the fi ndings in this report will be referred to the comptroller general to determine if any recovery of expenditures or payments is necessary." Th at was done, and compensation was made, and the fi nancial aspects of this matter are fi nished. S. Hammell: I think the minister should walk the talk. If nothing is hidden, then table the blank document, the blank pages of the document you are holding up. Attached to the e-mail that outlined the plan to of- fer hush money that had the potential to embarrass the

British Columbia DebatesTuesday, July 16, 2013 551 Premier was a document that also outlined a plan to use taxpayers' money to build Liberal Party lists. I quote the e-mail: "ID supporters and potential supporters. Record these on contact lists to be provided to volunteers and added to the database." Further: "MLAs' teams will be able to build on this and develop ethnic outreach teams for their campaign." My question is to the Minister of International Trade and for Multiculturalism. Is this the database built on the taxpayers' dime for Liberal Party campaign purposes be- ing referred to in the hush money e-mail?

Hon. A. Wilkinson: It's comforting that my oppon- ent's question was actually answered by the senior com- mittee of civil servants. Far be it from us, and particularly from me as the minister responsible for freedom of infor- mation, to intervene in the statutory regulatory process which was conducted by civil servants and disclosed and redacted 10,000 pages of documents on the open govern- ment website. Of course, this is a bit rich coming from the member opposite, given that she was one of the cabinet ministers in the 1990s who didn't know her alias.

USE OF E-MAIL ACCOUNTS BY GOVERNMENT STAFF INVOLVED IN MULTICULTURAL OUTREACH STRATEGY H. Bains: Th ese are things that we know.

We know that on the same day that the Premier said, "Th ere are absolutely crystal-clear rules around the sharing of that information, and sharing of that information outside of government is not permitted, nor should it be permit- ted…." We also know that the same day Fiera Lo was frantically sending what the Dyble report called "pack- ages of lists to her personal e-mail account." Similarly, the director of communication for multi- culturalism was caught red-handed, sending more than 1,100 e-mails from his government account to his private account.

Does the Minister for Multiculturalism agree with the Premier that Ms. Lo and a director of com- munication for multiculturalism violated the crystal- clear rules by sending packages of lists to their personal e-mail accounts? Interjections. Madame Speaker: Hon. Members, the Chair needs to hear the question and the answer. Hon. A. Wilkinson: Th is is indeed becoming repeti- tive. Th e member opposite just basically read out the an- alysis and conclusions of the report. Madame Speaker: Member, please do not engage in use of props in the chamber. [1415] Hon. A. Wilkinson: Th ank you, Madame Speaker.

We're left with the issue of human resources, employ- ment issues, which have been thoroughly canvassed in this matter. A number of the individuals involved left the civil service, and I must note they left voluntarily, and they left without severance. Interjections. Madame Speaker: Members. Members. H. Bains: Th e Dyble report is very clear. Ms. Lo was sending packages of lists to her personal e-mail account during the investigation itself. On the same day Ms.

Lo was sending those lists to her personal e-mail account, the Premier said: "Anyone who shared that information would have been violating those rules of the public ser- vice. It would have been absolutely wrong for that to hap- pen." Y et the Premier herself just rehired Ms. Lo. Can the Minister for Multiculturalism confi rm that the reason Ms. Lo was rehired was because she was acting with the full knowledge of the B.C. Liberal government and was in fact doing as she was told when she sent those packages of lists to her personal e-mail account? Hon. A.

Wilkinson: Th ere's a great irony in this line of questioning, in that the report itself made clear that there were breaches of the standards of conduct by a number of individuals. Th ese become human resources issues, and these people are entitled to the privacy of their disciplinary process within the civil service. Th at is what happened, and so these individuals are entitled to work and fi nd employment. Interjections. Madame Speaker: Minister, please take your seat. CALL FOR INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION INTO MULTICULTURAL OUTREACH STRATEGY S.

Simpson: For what information is in the Dyble re- port, just the nature of the mandate of the report ensured that it was inadequate. Th e Dyble report couldn't investi- gate the Liberal Party. Th e Dyble report couldn't investi- gate the Liberal caucus. As a result, it could not connect the dots between the hush money scandal, the govern- ment, the caucus and the Liberal Party. What we have here is some 10,000 pages, half of which are pretty much blank. What it does tell us is that there was a plan to off er hush money to an individual who had information potentially damaging to the Premier and the B.C. Liberals.

Half the e-mail exposing this plan was

British Columbia Debates552 Tuesday, July 16, 2013 blanked out by the government before its release. My question is to the Deputy Premier. With this new information, will the Deputy Premier order a full, in- dependent investigation with the power to review all fac- tors, including the Liberal Party, the Liberal caucus and this hush money scandal? Hon. A. Wilkinson: As a newcomer to this House, I fi nd it ironic that I am standing here to talk about the divisions between the legislative branch, the executive branch and the government.

In fact, what happened here is that the redaction was performed by professional, ca- reer civil servants at the highest standards possible any- where in this country. If my friend has a complaint about that, then he has a complaint about the entire civil service. Th is is a dead-end line of questioning. Madame Speaker: The member for Vancouver- Hastings on a supplemental. [1420] S. Simpson: Th is member should know that those div- isions are no excuse for using taxpayers' money to pro- mote the B.C. Liberal Party. Th is government, the B.C. Liberal Party…. Interjections. Madame Speaker: Members. Please continue.

S. Simpson: Th is government attempts to hide behind a report that by its nature and by its mandate was inad- equate. No ability to look at the Liberal Party, which was the benefi ciary of taxpayers' money. No ability to look at the conduct of the Liberal caucus. No ability to contact hush money and the moving of taxpayers' dollars to sup- port the Liberal Party — none at all. But what this new information does do is expose this e-mail. It appears that nowhere in the recommendations of Mr. Dyble's report are there recommendations that deal specifi cally with this e-mail and with this question of hush money.

British Columbians need closure on this issue. Th at closure did not come with the election. It will come when somebody answers a clear question. Th at's what we require. Again, will the Deputy Premier order an independent investigation of this hush money scandal of the Liberal Party getting taxpayers' dollars funnelled in through this information? Hon. A. Wilkinson: Once again, I must call upon the goodwill and the trust of the members opposite to place their faith in the civil service of British Columbia.

Th ere are at least 28,000 hard-working people in this province, many of whom are unionized, who do an hon- ourable day's work every day, serving the public. Some of those honourable workers performed the re- daction of the e-mail. Th ey collected the information. It was brought to the attention of four of the most sen- ior civil servants in this province with unimpeachable records. And today we fi nd the members opposite at- tempting to undermine the entire structure of our civil service, which we are proud of. L.

Krog: Never have I heard so much rhetoric in this chamber to avoid answering the most basic of questions. Th is is a fairly simple proposition. Th is government set up a process which was inadequate from the start. No power to compel evidence. No power to investigate the Liberal Party. No power to investigate beyond those members of the public service who were identifi ed. We end up with a conclusion that exonerates everyone.

We now have 10,000 pages of documents dumped in the public record long aft er the election is fi nished, when the people of British Columbia could have passed a true judgment, not the judgment the government is talking about. We have listened to the rhetoric that talks about the answers being clear. Th ere was no possibility of get- ting to clear answers because this government knew what was up. Th e simple question is this. Given the cloud that has now been created by this scandal — and it is a scandal — will the government do the right thing?

Will the Deputy Premier do the correct and appropriate thing, when faced with this kind of issue, and that is to order a true investi- gation that has power to do the right thing to get to the bottom of this fi asco? Because British Columbians paid for this, they deserve answers. To the Deputy Premier: will you do the right thing today and order a proper investigation? Hon. A. Wilkinson: It can only be said so many times before it becomes repetitive and tedious. An event oc- curred. It was thoroughly investigated. Inappropriate actions were discovered. Th ey were deemed to be wrong.

This government, the members of this side of the House, owned up to it before the election. Th e public had their say, and the results of their decision are clear in this room today. [1425] It is indeed ironic for the member opposite, a qualifi ed lawyer, to have failed to have read the terms of reference. [End of question period.] Petitions N. Macdonald: I'd like to present a petition with al- most 1,000 signatures from residents supporting the reopening and continuing operation of the Invermere

British Columbia DebatesTuesday, July 16, 2013 553 dialysis unit, which provides life-saving support to the citizens of the upper Columbia Valley. Orders of the Day Hon. M. de Jong: In this chamber , Committee of Supply, the Ministry of Energy. In

Section A, the Douglas Fir Room, Committee of Supply, the estimates of the Ministry of International Trade continue. And in the Birch Room,

Section C, Committee of Supply, the con- tinuation of the Ministry of Community, Sport and Cultural Development, to be followed at some point by the Ministry of Agriculture. [1430] Committee of Supply ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF ENERGY AND MINES Th e House in Committee of Supply (Section B); R. Chouhan in the chair. Th e committee met at 2:32 p.m. On Vote 19: ministry operations, $19,219,000. Hon. B. Bennett: Hon. Chair, I will just make a very brief statement. Today I understand that we are doing estimates for the Mines side of this ministry.

We have — well, I guess it doesn't matter if I say what amount of time we have set aside for this — a certain amount of time set aside, so I don't want to actually spend a bunch of time with introductory comments. I'll just say that I've been in this ministry before, and it is a great honour to be the minister responsible for mines in the province. Th e professional public servants who work in this division of the ministry are not only hard workers and very professional people but good people. Using that as a bit of a segue, I'm going to introduce my staff who are here to help me this aft ernoon.

My deputy minister, Dave Nikolejsin, for the ministry. My assistant deputy minister, David Morel, who is just taking his seat, is the ADM for mining, and Neilane Mayhew is here on the fi nancial side. I'm going to spare the opposition from the statement that I've got here. We're actually quite proud of where the industry is going today in B.C. It's the safest heavy industry in Canada. Th e mining industry employs more aboriginal workers than any other industry in the coun- try.

Th ere's obviously a lot of current activity in mining in B.C. right now that helps pay the freight for all the public services that we enjoy in this province. [1435] Mining is certainly an important component of our government's vision to grow the economy and increase the number of jobs. Th ere are a number of projects that have just gotten going in the last two years, and there are a number of projects that are going to get going in the next two years, one of which, of course, is the Red Chris project in the northwest, once it has electricity.

So I'll let the opposition critic take the discussion where he wants to take it, and we'll do our best to answer the questions and get through as much as we possibly can in the time allotted. J. Horgan: I thank the minister for truncating his opening remarks. I just want to add to his comments. Some of the individuals who have came in with him I used to work with.

I won't name them for fear of retribu- tion, but I know full well — and I support the minister's assertion — that the people, particularly on the mineral side, the mining side as well as throughout the Ministry of Energy, are outstanding individuals, working hard to grow the economy in British Columbia, to provide jobs and to provide opportunity in every corner. One of the things I'm sure the minister would have touched upon is that quite oft en when we talk about mining…. My colleague, the critic from Alberni–Pacifi c Rim, will be going into detail on this.

For many people when they think of mining, they think of far-fl ung com- munities. But in fact, the density of mining companies in downtown Vancouver is quite staggering. I know the minister would have said that, had we not had a short period of time to make statements such as this. Since I don't, as House Leader, get an opportunity to get up very oft en, I thought I would avail myself of this chance as critic for this fi le and, again, give my absolute sincere thanks to the people in the ministry for the work that they've been doing for many, many years. I know it's diffi cult.

I recall the minister some years ago, when he was in this fi le before, lamenting the absence of fi nancial resources for the work that needs to be done on the land base so that we can actually realize the tremen- dous potential we have here in British Columbia. With that brief remark, I'll take my seat and give way to the member for Alberni–Pacifi c Rim. S. Fraser: Th anks to the minister and his staff for be- ing here today and making themselves available for this important part of the budget process.

I want to also acknowledge the vast amount of know- ledge and integrity of staff who are accompanied with the minister, and also acknowledge the minister's past experience in this fi le. I have less experience in this fi le, so I appreciate you having some patience with me as I work my way through some of the questions here. Th ey might seem a little aca- demic to begin with. I hope you can get through that with me. I do want to acknowledge the safety record of the in- dustry — no more important legacy, really, of any in-

British Columbia Debates554 Tuesday, July 16, 2013 dustry in the province, as having such a strong safety record here. With that, I've got about two hours, just so you know, to deal with this. Th ere'll be a few other questions from other members, I'm sure. If I could begin with the fi nan- cial end of things. Again, for the record, the former Ministry of Energy, Mines and Natural Gas has been changed. We have a new ministry. I always get confused when that happens, be- cause the numbers kind of change because the ministries get split and the responsibilities get split also.

For the record, I have that the previous ministry — the Energy, Mines and Natural Gas Ministry — had a budget of $425 million. Now, with that split in two, the budget just for the Energy, Mines

section that we're dealing with today is $24.249 million. So it does represent a bit of a cut, I think, on the fi le — on the portion dealing with mines and energy. Is that correct? [1440] Hon. B. Bennett: I'm sorry that I took a minute there. I want to get this right. I maybe won't take quite as long with questions that are actually about mining projects as I will about the fi nancial aspects of the ministry. Th e member asks one of the fi rst questions that I asked when I was named minister. Th ere is a decrease, and it's a decrease that has been in the three-year budget plan, so it's not a surprise.

If you look back at last year's budget and the year be- fore, you'll see that there was a decrease projected. Th at decrease is made up largely of two things. One is roughly a $15 million reduction for the LiveSmart program. Th e program has not ended. It is still being delivered with as- sistance through B.C. Hydro. But there's $15 million not coming out of this ministry for LiveSmart, so that's the biggest portion of the decrease. Th ere's also a signifi cant portion of the decrease that's made up by a $9.9 million decrease in the innovative clean energy fund.

So when you total up the roughly $15 million from LiveSmart and the roughly $10 mil- lion from the innovative clean energy fund, that accounts for the vast majority of what you see as a decrease in the ministry's budget. S. Fraser: Th anks to the minister for that. Th at's jiving with my calculation. Th e two new ministries combined, the total budget is about $26 million less than the previ- ous Ministry of Energy, Mines and Natural Gas. I guess my question on that…. With B.C. Hydro still involved with the LiveSmart program — and I don't know if the minister has this information, or his staff — is B.C.

Hydro, in its budget, making up any or all of that portion, that $15 million that was cut? Hon. B. Bennett: Th e LiveSmart program is being delivered through B.C. Hydro, with assistance from our ministry. I can't say to the member that the $15 million is in the B.C. Hydro budget, because I don't know spe- cifi cally what their budget is for the LiveSmart program.

I will say that, to their credit, Hydro has come up with some innovative ways to allow ratepayers to take action towards conservation measures, other ways of using less energy, and then having at least a portion of the cost of that repaid through their actual monthly bill. It's kind of a novel approach to allowing ratepayers to amortize the cost of doing these conservation or saving measures. I think that will help deliver the overall objectives of the LiveSmart program. S. Fraser: Th anks to the minister for that. Th at's good news. I guess it's fortuitous.

I don't know if it's appropriate, but the minister is also the Minister Responsible for Core Review. Are we anticipating further changes proposed in the three-year fi scal plan? Is it too early to say that? Is that something that's being looked at? Hon. B. Bennett: I think I'm doing estimates on Core Review later this week or possibly Monday. No, I think it's later this week, probably tomorrow — or later today, perhaps. [1445] What I can say to the member is that every ministry will be subject to the core review process.

We'll be look- ing, certainly, for ways that government can spend less money and deliver at least as high a level of service. But our expectations…. I'll get into this more when I speak with the critic responsible for Core Review, but generally speaking, our main focus is not on cutting expenses, ne- cessarily, counting dollars or even counting regulations. Our focus, really, is on fi nding ways to do things better.

To answer the member's question, if we can fi nd ways to do things better and that happens to save us some money, my hope would be — having a dual responsibil- ity here, in charge of the core review but also Minister of Energy and Mines — that we could take that money that we fi nd and apply it to productive things within the ministry. I think, with the size of the budget, I don't anticipate large dollars being involved in terms of what we are able to turn up with a core review process in this ministry. S. Fraser: Th anks to the minister for the answer. Th e issue of permitting, for instance.

Is that no long- er within the purview of your ministry? Is that handled through the larger Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations Ministry? Do they have the lead on that now? Hon. B. Bennett: Well, I've been in the job for about 30 days. I have to make sure that I've caught up with the new world in terms of the creation of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations and the impact that the cre-

British Columbia DebatesTuesday, July 16, 2013 555 ation of that ministry has had on the other so-called dirt ministries like this one. My understanding, my advice, is that permitting is ac- tually now a shared responsibility. FLNRO, if I can refer to it by its acronym, does the First Nations consultation and the intake on permitting information. Th e permits actually come from this ministry, the Ministry of Energy and Mines.

For example, in a place that I'm reasonably familiar with, Cranbrook, you would fi nd a Ministry of Energy and Mines employee sitting in a big offi ce with a number of FLNRO employees, and with Ministry of Environment probably not far away either — the idea being that we're trying to integrate everything that happens around a mining project so that we can do it more eff ectively, fast- er, for less money. S. Fraser: Th anks to the minister. I don't disagree that siloing of ministries can be somewhat ineffi cient. Certainly, finding efficiencies there….

Maybe that's something that happens through part of the core re- view also. I guess a more specifi c question on that is related to the budget. What's budgeted through this ministry for per- mitting? And if you could, if it's possible, provide num- bers of full-time-equivalents, that sort of thing, within the ministry. I'd like, just so you know, to be able to compare that to who in Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations also has responsibility and how that plays in — and, ac- tually, for that matter, Environment too. Hon. B.

Bennett: Th e mines and mineral resources division has a budget of $11.171 million. There are roughly 45 people who work within the mines permit- ting part of the ministry. We don't really break that $11 million number down between permitting and other things that are done with- in mines and mineral resources, so I can't tell the mem- ber specifi cally what goes to permitting. Th ere are a lot of people in the ministry who do not just do permitting; they do other things as well. It's pretty hard to segment that particular activity, but the total budget for this side of the ministry is about $11 million. S.

Fraser: Th anks to the minister for that. Does the minister know what that compares to, say, with Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations? [1450] Th eir role in permitting when it comes to mines…. I'm just wondering how this works. Arguably, some say there are unacceptable backlogs in the permitting pro- cess. I guess I'm trying to probe that, just so the minis- ter knows where I'm trying to go with this. I believe I've heard comments from the minister earlier saying that he agreed with that.

As there is more than one ministry responsible, direct- ly, for permitting, I'm trying to fi gure out how it actually works within the ministries and how they conduct, you know, cooperatively with each other. Hon. B. Bennett: I wanted to fi nd the note. I knew I had a note on the progress that we're making with the permitting backlog. Th e member has given me an op- portunity to speak to that. I'll go to the fi rst part of his question fi rst, though.

In terms of the comparison between what this ministry spends on permitting and what FLNRO spends on per- mitting, I don't have that, and I doubt very much my staff will have that information. Certainly, it's something that FLNRO should be able to provide, although they'll be in the same situation that we're in — that a lot of people do diff erent things. Th ey don't just do permitting. So it's hard to actually target how much is being spent on per- mitting specifi cally. With regard to backlogs, there was an issue.

I think it's fair to say that there's a continuing issue in terms of how long it takes to deal with permit applications, but the issue has been largely dealt with over the past year, year and a half. It's my advice that the current average turnaround time for all notices of work — that's the main permit that exploration companies are looking for — is 65 days as of June 1, 2013, which is a reduction from 110 days in 2011. So, you know, the ministry has made pretty good headway in terms of reducing the time that it takes to get a notice of work.

In terms of mineral and coal exploration notices of work, it's 68 days as of 2013. I'm distinguishing between notices of work for placer, aggregate and exploration, which is taking an average of 65 days, and notices of work for mineral and coal exploration, which is an average of 68 days — both considerable improvements over what we had in 2011. S. Fraser: Th anks to the minister for that. For clari- fi cation, the $11 million…. What I have down for the Ministry of Mines, mineral resources division — the budget is $11.056 million. So that total budget, that's the 45 full-time-equivalents?

Because I asked about that for permitting, and that was the budget that I got for per- mitting. Th at's the larger budget. So permitting is within that? Just for clarifi cation. Hon. B. Bennett: Actually, my staff just pointed out the number that I gave you, $11.171 million, was the number from '12-13. Th e member is correct. Th e num- ber for '13-14 is actually $11.056 million. So that is the correct number, and the answer is yes to the member's question as to whether that fi gure repre- sents an aggregate of all of the things that the mines and mineral resources division does. Y es, that's correct. Th at's

British Columbia Debates556 Tuesday, July 16, 2013 the total budget for that division. [1455] S. Fraser: On the revenue side for the ministry, tax- ation…. Th e revenues that are retrieved from mining, whether it's through…. Let's try it fi rst with the permit- ting process. I'm sure there's a fee to cover costs. What would that revenue stream look like in this year, this fi s- cal? Hon. B. Bennett: I can give the member the hard numbers that I have for the mineral tax revenues from coal and metal mines and then give him, also, the forecast for the hard numbers that we don't have yet.

I can tell the member that mineral tax revenues from coal and metal mines grew from $44 million in 2001 to over $350 million in 2010 and 2011. Th e current min- eral tax forecast for this fi scal year is approximately $200 million. I can break that down a little bit further for the member by saying that $165 million will come from coal mines; $35 million will come from metal mines. Th ose forecasts were made in June of 2013, and we would ex- pect updated forecasts by January 2014.

Th ere are other rents and permit fees and so forth that we collect in addition to those mineral tax revenues, con- sisting of, I understand, around $20 million. I should say that these numbers by no means represent the fi nancial benefi t that fl ows to the provincial government and into the economy generally. S. Fraser: Th anks to the minister. I get that. I'm try- ing to fi gure out how costs can be off set by the ministry when they retrieve fees for permitting and such. I'd like to probe that more, but I don't know that I have enough time. Is it a 13 percent net revenue tax on minerals? I'm not sure.

I think I need some clarifi cation on what's de- rived through royalties or anything other than the min- eral tax itself. I know the tax is…. Th ere are less expenses. I realize that it's not, the 13 percent…. Th ere are certainly write- off s allowing for a host of expenses to be covered. But is that correct? Of the taxation part, is that part of the number that you just said — the $200 million this fi scal? Does that include the revenue from taxation on minerals? Hon. B. Bennett: Th e mineral tax is a profi t-based tax payable by the mines and the quarries that operate here in B.C.

It was a tax that was enacted in 1990. Th ere are two tiers to this mineral tax, and I can provide this in writing to the member later if he wants it. Th e fi rst tier, the lower tier, is called the net current proceeds tax, and it's calculated at 2 percent of operating cash fl ows. Th at tax is paid before recovery of all oper- ating and capital costs and other deductions. Th en the second tier, the higher tier, is called the net revenue tax, and that's the 13 percent tax that the member made refer- ence to. It's 13 percent of profi ts over the life of the mine.

Th e higher net revenue tax is only paid aft er recovery of all operating and capital costs and other deductions. [1500] So two diff erent ways to charge tax, one of which is aft er the recovery of operating and capital costs by the company. One, the lesser one…. Th e 2 percent tax that's calculated fi rst goes ahead of recovery. S. Fraser: Thanks to the minister for that. I guess the government revenues for…. Minerals in British Columbia are a public resource, so there's a price to pay for that. I'm just trying to fi gure out…. Th ere's an export value.

So in 2011-2012 the total exports were $3.5 billion, but the minerals and metal revenue that's come back was about $60 million. Now, I understand that it's a bigger picture, as the min- ister said. I mean, there's employment. Th ere's taxation. Th ere's a whole host of things that are benefi ts to the province for having mining activity. My rough calcula- tion shows that we're getting about 1.7 percent of the ex- port value coming back directly to the ministry. Is this comparable to other jurisdictions? Are we, the people of British Columbia, getting our fair share back for this public resource?

Is it comparable to other juris- dictions, I guess? Hon. B. Bennett: What the member has suggested by way of a ratio between the value of exports and the provincial taxes collected is a novel idea. It's not an idea that I've come across before. It's not something that…. It really goes to tax policy. It might be a question to ask the Minister of Finance, whether the tax policy I just read out that applies to min- erals and coal is an appropriate tax.

But I don't think that anyone does a comparison of the value of exports versus how much provincial tax is collected — not to say that that isn't a useful ratio to ponder. I do want to say one other thing.

Th at is that if you look at the work that's been done over the years by the Mining Association of B.C. or by the Association for Mineral Exploration B.C., you'll see that when you factor all of the benefi ts together from mining and you start to calculate the amount of corporate tax, for example, that's paid by some of the bigger operating mining companies, especially, and you start to look at the income tax that's paid by people who work in these mines…. I have five operating coal mines where I live, and there's a workforce there in excess of 4,000 people. Th e average wage is north of $100,000 a year.

It's more in the $110,000 to $115,000 a year average wage. So there's a tremendous level of personal income taxes being paid both to the federal and provincial governments, a tre- mendous level of corporate taxes being paid. Y ou've got all the multiplier impacts of that money being generated

British Columbia DebatesTuesday, July 16, 2013 557 in the communities that surround mines. It is a signifi cant benefi t. I think, with all due respect to the member's novel perspective on the ratio between total exports and total provincial taxes collected, it's probably not a very accurate way to characterize the overall benefi ts that British Columbians get from the mining industry. S. Fraser: Th e minister may be right. Certainly, I'm new at this, so I do look at things a little diff erently. But the numbers are quite staggering.

I agree that they may not be what the expectation is for LNG, but mining is still a signifi cant player in the economy of British Columbia. Th e total export numbers are staggering — in the billions. Again, what we retrieve…. Y eah, I understand the spinoff s, and there are all kinds of secondary benefi ts to the economy. I don't dismiss that here, and I'm not pick- ing a fi ght on this. I'm just curious if we derive a similar amount, percentage-wise — I don't know how else to say it — as other jurisdictions. Do we get our fair share from our resource? Because it is our resource. [1505] Hon. B.

Bennett: I think one way to answer the ques- tion about whether we're comparable to other jurisdic- tions, although I can't address that particular ratio that the member refers to…. I can say, I think with consider- able confi dence, that if our tax regime in B.C. was not competitive with even the rest of Canada, let alone the rest of the world…. Mining companies, as we all know — there are about 650 of them based in Vancouver — go where they have the likeliest chance of developing a good resource. Th at could be in Chile, or it could be in B.C., or it could be in Quebec or Manitoba.

If our tax regime was not competi- tive, they wouldn't be here. Y ou look at a company like Teck Resources, for ex- ample, which has fi ve big mines in the Elk Valley — coal mines. They own the Highland Valley Copper mine at Kamloops. Th ey just were given a mines permit for another coal mine in the northeast at Tumbler Ridge. Th ey're the big example, but there are other companies like Taseko Mines and others who operate in this prov- ince and who would not operate here if our tax regime was not competitive, certainly, with the rest of Canada.

I think another piece of evidence that, in fact, we are competitive is the extent to which exploration companies have continued to invest in our province. I'm not going to be able to get the number right off the top of my head, but I know when I was fi rst elected that there was about $25 million being spent in B.C. on mineral exploration. Th at was in 2000-2001. I believe that last year the investment in exploration was in the order of $600 million to $700 million.

Again, you wouldn't see that phenomenal growth in exploration investment or that phenomenal growth in confi dence, frankly, if you didn't have a competitive tax regime. S. Fraser: Well, thanks to the minister for that. It's not a question of being competitive. I wasn't getting there. I mean, we have to be competitive. I agree with that. We have the natural resources here. Th ey are sought aft er by companies for the right reasons — that they can make a profi t. If they can make a profi t, then they're likely going to be here.

If the commodity prices are suffi cient to make that and the world economy is suffi cient to provide that profi t…. And that varies. Th at's a cyclical thing. It's beyond me how that works. I don't really want to spend time maybe jockeying with the minister on this. I wasn't suggesting that we shouldn't have a competitive tax regime here. I'm just suggesting that it can still be competitive and there may be, poten- tially, more derived for the ministry and for the province.

Finding that balance is, again, probably beyond me, but my questions are designed to try to fi gure out if we're get- ting that balance or not. I'm just going to move right on, then, because we are running out of time. It's going way too quick here. Th ere was an announcement that there would be eight new mines in the province by 2015. We're well over the halfway mark in 2013. Just for the record, how many of the promised eight new mines are operating now? Hon. B. Bennett: We had a suspicion on this side that the member might ask that question, but I couldn't lay my hand on the paper immediately.

Since the jobs plan was released, we have one new mine that's in operation, the New Afton Mine near Kamloops. We have fi ve more that are under construc- tion or have been permitted. Th ose fi ve are the Mount Milligan copper-goldmine near Prince George. We're expecting them to begin production, actually, this year — probably in the second half of 2013. Th ere's the Red Chris copper-goldmine near Dease Lake that we have discussed here in the House during question period and so forth. Th at's moving forward with construction. I saw a picture the other day of the Red Chris site.

Actually, I met the CEO at a breakfast of the Mining Association. He showed me a picture of con- crete and rebar in the ground, and he said it was a baby picture. So that mine is starting to go up. [1510] I know most people think of mines as a hole under- ground, but there's a lot more to them than that. Th ey're constructing the mill right now. Th ere is also, thirdly, the Bonanza Ledge goldmine near Barkerville, which was permitted in December 2011. Th ere's the Treasure Mountain silver mine near Hope, which was permitted in May of 2012.

Recently the min- istry permitted the Quintette coal mine near Tumbler Ridge that I referenced a few minutes ago. So it's fi ve that are getting close; one that's operating.

British Columbia Debates558 Tuesday, July 16, 2013 S. Fraser: Th ere are two parts to the equation, though. By 2015 will that be met? With Red Chris, the north- west transmission line is a requirement, I believe, for that mine to go ahead and actually open and begin pro- duction. I mean, there's one operating out of the eight that were promised, and it's less than two years till the dead- line. So are we on track? Are we anticipating Red Chris being open and producing by 2015? Is that the anticipa- tion here? Hon. B. Bennett: It's absolutely the government's ex- pectation that Red Chris will be operating by 2015.

S. Fraser: Th anks to the minister for the answer. Morrison mine was rejected, and I get the reasons. Th at's fair enough. But when it was shut down, when the mine approval was shut down, what was the rationale for that? Was it the endangerment to the Skeena system? Certainly, that was highlighted in the press, and I heard that from First Nations and others. Just how did that un- fold? A Coles Notes version would be fi ne. Hon. B. Bennett: To answer the question about the decision by the environmental assessment office and the responsible ministers on the Morrison mine, it's im- portant to just….

I don't want to spend a bunch of the member's time providing context, but the environmental assessment process in that offi ce is, of course, associated with the Ministry of Environment, not with our ministry. Th ey do their work, and they make a recommendation to two ministers. In this case, when it's a mine, the Mines Minister is re- quired to help make the decision along with the Minister of Environment. Th e Minister of Environment and the Minister of Mines in this case decided that they could not sign off on a permit, a certifi cate, for this particular mine.

I wasn't there, and I was not part of the process. Frankly, I can't provide the member with any details as to why they made their decision, except that I am quite confi dent that they made their decision in the best inter- ests of British Columbians. S. Fraser: Th anks to the minister for that. Th e follow-up question, then, is: if a proposal is re- jected fairly far down the line, for the right reasons, how does the ministry work with the companies to ensure that they don't go that far down the line, shall we say, before having a rejection?

What role does the ministry play in trying to mitigate wasted time, energy and expense by companies? Hon. B. Bennett: Hon. Chair, the member used the language "fairly far down the road" in process.

And you know, that's accurate, in the sense that any mining project takes, typically, years and years — from the time that the prospector kicks the rock over and decides there might be something there, to the years and years and the dol- lars that are spent on all the drill projects to defi ne the resource and determine whether there's going to be a mine there, and then the years and years it takes to raise the money to do anything about it.

Th en eventually they get to the point where they think they have a project, and they approach the environmental assessment offi ce. [1515] Th ey work with the environmental assessment offi ce, sometimes for years, until they get to the point where the environmental assessment offi ce says to the proponent: "We think you've got an application here. If you want to bring it in the door, we'll start this 180-day clock, and we'll assess the application." Sometimes proponents want to go in that door and start that 180-day clock before the staff at the environmental assessment offi ce think they should.

But that's the way, essentially, the process works. In this case, the application for a certifi cate was denied for, I'm sure, suffi cient grounds. Th at matter is actually before the courts right now, so I'm not going to say any- thing about that. But I will tell the member that it is the practice of the environmental assessment offi ce to work with propon- ents not only during the assessment stage but aft er the assessment stage, if they have been unsuccessful.

And in this case, the EAO staff met with this company and of- fered to work with the company to try to help them go through the process again and see if there were more satisfactory ways to mitigate the environmental impacts that were identifi ed in the process. Obviously, the com- pany decided they didn't want to do that. Th at's very typical of the practice that the EAO takes. If you fail the fi rst time, it doesn't mean you can't go back and try again, and they will attempt to help you provide the right and necessary information. S.

Fraser: I know the EAO is not our topic right now, but it has come up, so I'll touch on it. I mean, there have only been two turndowns through the provincial en- vironmental assessment process for mining operations that I'm aware of. So it's generally considered to be a…. While it might be a timely process, it's not one that's likely to fail. Case in point, even if the federal process has a scath- ing review, as in the Prosperity proposal at Fish Lake…. Th at fi rst proposal went forward. Th e provincial process gave it two thumbs up, and the federal process gave it two thumbs down. So, I mean, there are issues.

Th ere are separate issues with the environmental as- sessment process, and I know we're not going to get into that here, because it's a diff erent ministry. But I guess the ministry itself, the ministry responsible for mining…. Is there no way to…? Do you ever fl ag…? Is there anyone in the ministry

British Columbia DebatesTuesday, July 16, 2013 559 that fl ags bad proposals, ones that are not likely to have any support from the public, from the region, from First Nations for environmental reasons or for other reasons, to save everyone a lot of time and grief and to not pit in- dustry against communities, First Nations, that sort of thing? Is there a way of culling applications so they don't go in? Or is every application just accepted willy-nilly? Hon. B. Bennett: Th ere is a lot of information that…. Perhaps the member and I can go get a cup of coff ee sometime and go through it in more detail.

Again, I don't want to use more of his time than I have to, to an- swer his question. But I will say this. Th ere is a process in place where staff from the EAO do liaise with staff from the Ministry of Mines to, well, assess a mining project. In terms of whether this ministry somehow or other can pick the winning projects from the losing projects — we are not in the business of deciding which business case is stronger. What we can do as a government — and, I think, what any government does — is we have a process in place that is, I think, quite transparent and is rigorous.

Th e mining company comes to us, to this ministry, and applies for permits to go on the land and perhaps do some drilling, in some cases to take bulk samples. [1520] Th at goes back to my comment earlier about notices of work. So they get those notices of work from this min- istry, and they do not get those notices of work unless they comply with the stringent regulations and standards that we have. I don't want to…. I'll leave the discussion about the environmental assessment office to the Minister of Environment.

Just let me say that I have heard the B.C. environmental assessment process referred to and char- acterized in the way that the member just characterized it. I don't attribute any negative motive to the mem- ber, but I think that, many times, people miss the point about how that process actually works. Y ou know, you don't have a proponent go in at the one end of that pro- cess and never talk to anybody within the process, and it's like a crap shoot; they throw the dice, and at the end of the process they either succeed or fail.

Before they go into the process, there is an enormous amount of work that's done with our ministry and with the Ministry of Environment to get that proponent to the point where they have an application that can then be as- sessed in the 180 days. It really is not…. Th e process does not lend itself to proponents that aren't ready to be as- sessed. Y ou have to be pretty much ready to go into that process before you can get into it. It's only natural, I think….

Given the way the process is structured, by the time you get to — you know, aft er 20 years of work — the environmental assessment pro- cess, I think it's quite understandable that most projects are going to get the certifi cate. Th ey have done the work with the Ministry of Environment and with the Ministry of Mines to determine what the environmental risk is and to propose methods of mitigation of those environmental risks that are acceptable to government.

In the case of the mining project that the member raised, clearly, they didn't provide enough assurance around the mitigation of environmental risk to satisfy the ministers or the offi ce. S. Fraser: Sure. I don't disagree that the proposal was lacking. It was lacking very late in the game, and it was very expensive. Again, the issue is around whether or not the ministry is maybe wasting its own resources by accepting appli- cations that are going to be costly to a company too, be- cause they are bad applications. Th ey are not appropriate for the location. Th ey're not compatible with the location.

When I say "bad," I don't mean an evil bad. I'm just say- ing one that's likely to be so controversial. Th e Raven coal mine just north of my constituency on Vancouver Island — the proposal there has been…. I mean, serious concerns have been raised by every community. By resolution, formally, every commun- ity — Comox, Courtenay, Qualicum Beach, the regional districts in the region, the Islands Trust, all local govern- ments, who I have great respect for — has raised serious alarm bells about this. Not to mention the University of Victoria environ- mental law clinic and independent groups too. And the B.C.

Shellfi sh Growers Association, which would prob- ably have the most to lose because of a project that could be located in an area very, very close to — just upstream of, if you will — the largest shellfi sh-growing industry in the province. With all that in place and this thing is still…. Of course, the application has been returned, because it was woe- fully lacking. Th e company has said that they were go- ing to come back and try to fi x the failures there.

But it is potentially causing major rift s between a company and all of the communities that would be potentially aff ected, and all of the hundreds of jobs associated with the shell- fi sh industry, tourism, and the growth strategies of all the communities in the region, on the central Island. [1525] So if this is known ahead of time, is there no warn- ing that comes up? Or does the ministry accept every application that comes in? What's the criteria for saying at the get-go…? I asked this earlier. Is the ministry get- ting a substantial amount of money for an application?

Is that the rationale for just saying: "Y es, we accept every application"? Hon. B. Bennett: Th e question that the member asked, I think, if I get it accurately, is: can government, whether it's this ministry or some other ministry, assess the like- lihood that a project will (

a) be successful and (

b) be so

British Columbia Debates560 Tuesday, July 16, 2013 controversial that they should just tell the proponent to go away? What I would say, if I've understood the supposition, is that any company that does business in British Columbia or any individual who does business in British Columbia is owed due process. Whether you're building an un- popular ski resort or an unpopular coal mine or an un- popular coal bed gas well or an unpopular anything, you have to have rules in place that investors can rely upon.

If you don't like your rules, if the public is saying that your rules are no good, you can always change your rules. But I think that in terms of encouraging investment, whether it's mining or any other form of business endeav- our, you have to have rules that are transparent, that are understandable and that are adhered to by the province. We have many areas of the province that are protected, where you can't stake a claim or develop a mine or drill a hole. We have lots of areas that are off -limits for a variety of reasons.

Where it is legal to go and stake a claim and try to develop a mine, that particular entity, individual or company has the right to go through the process, and government is obligated to treat that proponent fairly, in accordance with its own process. S. Fraser: Sort of a circuitous answer. I'm not sure I got a straight one there. Could I get more specifi c? As I asked before, what do you get for a permit? If an initial permit is accepted by the ministry, there must be a fee. I've sort of asked that, I think, several times now. What is the amount of that permitting fee, if it's accepted? Hon. B.

Bennett: I hope that I answer properly or an- swer adequately here. Th ere actually is no fee to enter the process in terms of the various kinds of permits that you need to access Crown land to develop a mine. Th ere is a fee, of course, when you stake the claim. Th ere's a fee when you apply for a notice of work. Th ere are other kinds of permits that you have to apply for, and then you do pay a fee. But there's essentially no fee at the front end for a company that has decided it wants to develop a mineral deposit or a coal deposit. Again, this is really about due process.

It's really about government honouring a process that the duly elected government has established for dealing with mining pro- jects or any other kind of business projects. I know the member hasn't had the opportunity to be in government, but sometimes — in fact, many times — when you adhere to your own process, it's sometimes very uncomfortable and awkward.

It's very tempting to give in to pressure from groups that don't want the pro- ject to happen, but you have to allow the project to con- tinue to go through the due process and have trust in the civil servants that are directing that process. [1530] Ultimately, the best decision will be made, at the end of the day, in accordance with the rules that are in place. S. Fraser: I do have faith in civil servants. I mean, the job of the opposition…. I don't need to tell this to the minister either.

We get an Auditor General's report in this House that says that the environmental assessment process is woefully lacking and lists a whole list of things — no ability, not enough person power to even do any kind of basic monitoring. Th ere's a whole list that came out there. When we in the opposition push back because we have independent evidence from an offi cer of the Legislature, an independent offi ce of the Legislature saying that there are fl aws in the system that will prevent the civil service from actually being able to adequately do their job and protect the public interest….

When we raise those issues and they're not dealt with by government, then the issue is not about the faith in the civil service at all. I take some exception. I've never taken that position. My position as a critic is to ask these questions, because I believe that's the check and balance of the parliamentary system. If the government fails to address the concerns raised by independent offi cers of the Legislature through major reports, then we have a problem. I'll step away from this issue a bit. But it's related.

I mentioned the Raven coal project and the concern for other economic activity that's already existing and planned for and invested in for the future. So a coal mine may not be compatible in certain regions. It may not just be formal parks. Th ere may be other reasons — econom- ic reasons, other jobs that would be adversely aff ected. If you went to the Mineral Titles Online last Friday and you got the Raven coal project footprint, you would have found ten or 12 brand-new applications right over and including the Raven site that have been accepted by the ministry. How did that happen?

How did ten or 12 applications get accepted by the ministry aft er the Raven coal project has been going through so much controversy but is still kind of kicking along? How does that work? Th e name of the company is FEISA. Th at's what it says on the site. Hon. B. Bennett: Two things in response to that ques- tion. I think the Raven coal project is actually a very good example of how the process is working, if the member just thinks back to my earlier comments about how our ministry and the environmental assessment offi ce deal with applicants.

Th ere is an attempt to work closely with proponents so that when they do get in for their fi nal as- sessment and the 180-day clock starts to tick, they have a complete application that staff believe is, you know, more or less complete. In the case of the Raven coal mine, I would advise the member that — maybe he knows this already — on May 17, 2013, the provincial environmental assessment offi ce announced that it could not accept the application from

British Columbia DebatesTuesday, July 16, 2013 561 Raven coal due to defi ciencies in the application. So that project never made it in the door, because it just didn't have a good enough application. I think that's actually an example of how the process works. With respect to the member's question around min- eral tenure claims in the vicinity of the Raven coal pro- ject, coal tenures are not on line. Only mineral tenures are on line. I'm unfamiliar with the facts that have been related by the member in terms of this company, which I have not heard of, but I take the member's word for it.

If there are those claims that have been registered, they would have to be mineral claims, because, again, coal claims are not registered on line. [1535] S. Fraser: I am confused. On the Mineral Titles Online this fl urry of applications from…. It's a company out of…. If it's not Far East International Shipping, it sounds like it. It's a similar name anyways. It's a Calgary-Shanghai consortium, I believe. But just last Friday ten diff erent claims came down right on the footprint of and around the Raven coal mine proposal.

I guess this is particularly curious and concerning be- cause my understanding is that Compliance, the com- pany that has the Raven proposal, have the freehold. Th ey own the coal. Th ey own the subsurface. Th at's what it seems to say in the report. How can multiple applications from another applicant be put forward on an existing tenure, if you will, that is freehold, where in essence the government doesn't real- ly have say over that? It's actually freehold right now for Compliance. Hon. B. Bennett: Well, again, the Mineral Titles Online program deals with mineral claims, not with coal claims.

I think I should look into this and get back to the member with a fi nal answer, but I think I'm on safe ground to say that if there are claims showing up in the vicinity of the Raven coal project on Mineral Titles Online, they're not coal claims. So they wouldn't be an overlap of coal claims. Th ey would be a very separate mineral claim, and that's what I suspect is the situation here. I don't believe that we put notice of applications for coal licences. Th e coal part of the industry works diff er- ently than the mineral part of the industry in terms of in- itial claims.

On the mineral side you go on Mineral Titles Online, and you stake a claim. On the coal side you apply to government for a coal licence. I don't believe that the member would have seen no- tice of applications for coal licences, but I could be wrong about that. My suspicion is that the member is referring to mineral claims here. S. Fraser: Th e coal tenures are on line and are search- able through the Mineral Titles Online. Th ere are at least, I think, ten or 12. I have them here. Coal — they're listed. More concerning….

Th is is an anomaly here, because they don't see these kinds of numbers of claims coming in on the ministry website. As of Monday, which is three days aft er Friday, there were another at least ten claims just north of there on Vancouver Island from Golden River Resource Inc. I'm not familiar with Golden River Resource Inc., but there's a fl urry of applications that have been accepted by the ministry. Many of them — this is coal — are on top of freehold coal which is owned by Compliance. Again, I've got the experts here. I'd like to know how this can be happening.

I'm sure the ministry staff can just check that out. It's on the Mineral Titles Online, and you would confi rm that these are coal applications that have been accepted by outside interests. Th ey're planted right on top of freehold coal interests that are there already. Hon. B. Bennett: My advice from my senior staff is that Mineral Titles Online does not deal with coal claims. Th ey are separate applications for coal licences, and they are not listed on Mineral Titles Online. But there may be some reference on the ministry website to applications.

I can assure the member that there have been no coal licences granted in the vicinity of the Raven coal mine. I'm happy to spend as much time on this as the member wants to, but I think we're likely at odds over language and process. I'm not sure I fully understand where the member is getting this information. [1540] If possible, I would suggest that we get together aft er, and we fi nd out what the member is referring to, and we'll get some accurate information to the member. S. Fraser: Okay. Well, I will take the minister up on the off er. But I just want, for clarity, because we're on record here….

Th ese are applications for coal claims. Th ey are not in the vicinity of the Raven project. Th eir applications are for exactly the same coal, but it's freehold coal. Again, if somebody wants to…. I'm sure somebody has got this site on speed dial for the ministry. Because I'd sure like…. Th e reason that I would have liked to get some kind of an answer and confi rmation is because it's not just hap- pening on Vancouver Island. I'm not raising this just be- cause that's near my turf, if you will. In Princeton there have been 13 or 14. Again, the same just north on Vancouver Island, the Golden River Resource.

Th ey have, on the site for coal ap- plications that have been accepted…. We've got 13 or 14 new applications that have just come up, like just within the last week, which completely surround the town of Princeton. Some of that is also on freehold coal. It's pri- vately owned. Th ey have the subsurface rights already. How does the ministry accept applications for coal ap- plications on land that is already freehold? It's not even accessible. Again, how much resources get wasted when

British Columbia Debates562 Tuesday, July 16, 2013 this sort of thing happens, and what's the cost of that to the company, to the public? I mean, does Princeton know about this? Do those that have freehold — privately owned coal, if you will — know that an application has been accepted on top of their own freehold coal? Hon. B. Bennett: Well, it's hard for me to respond to the member's questions on this matter, because I really think…. I mean, the member uses the term "coal claim," and that's not actually a term that you'll fi nd in any of the legislation. So I'm not quite sure what he's referring to.

But once again — and this is the third or fourth time I've said this — anyone who wants to get permission to explore for coal comes to the provincial government and makes an application for a coal licence. Now, it may be — and I haven't seen the documents — that the ministry has put notice of applications up on their website in the interest of transparency and letting the public know what's happening. But the ministry can't stop somebody from sending in an application. I think that the most important point here is that the ministry hasn't acted on those applications, and there have been no coal licences issued.

Even with our improved process, given the recent na- ture of these applications that the member has referred to, the staff would not even have had time to even look at them. So the fact that somebody has dropped a manila envelope off at a mines offi ce someplace and that some- body has said "Okay, there's an application for a coal li- cence," just means there's been an application for a coal licence. I don't know what else we can say about that. S. Fraser: Okay. Well, I'm baffl ed by an application ac- tually…. It's an application for a coal tenure. It's on line. Th ey're on line.

Th ere's a fl urry of them — more than two dozen that I've mentioned in the last week, in two dif- ferent areas, including areas that are freehold right now. Th e company, Compliance, the consortium that's do- ing Raven — or trying to do Raven — have freehold rights to the coal in the ground. So how does an appli- cation for a coal tenure get as far as being put on line — somebody has to do that — superimposed on top of a freehold existing coal tenure? [1545] Isn't that a waste of time and resources and maybe a problem for a company that actually gets this put up on a website?

We have had too many incidents of compensa- tion having to be paid back to companies by the taxpayer for maybe taking the company down the wrong direction. Hon. B. Bennett: Th e member seems to be assum- ing that somehow or other the ministry goes out and solicits these applications, or the ministry actually sub- mits the applications themselves. Th at's not how it works. Th e business community, the mining industry, decides whether they're going to submit an application. In this case, it's a coal licence, and they're not listed on Mineral Titles Online. We've confi rmed that absolutely.

What the member might be looking at is…. Part of the website that the ministry has available to the public is a series of maps that show coal licence applications. So if somebody has dropped off some applications for coal li- cences on Vancouver Island and staff has had the time to put them up on the website, they could indeed be up on the website. But again, it's due process.

If you want to put an application in for something that you wish to do — even, I suppose, if you ought to know better, even if you have no chance of being awarded a positive response — there's no way to stop somebody at the door and say: "Wait a minute. Y ou can't put an ap- plication in." It sounds like that's what's happening in this case — that some applications for coal licences have been re- ceived; the notice of those applications has been put up in the form of maps. Th ose applications will be dealt with under the due process that we have in place. S.

Fraser: Maybe that's a place we can go with the core review, when the minister does that. I mean, for instance, if a company put an application in for a coal tenure in a national park that is off -limits for such operations, I'm hoping that the ministry wouldn't post that application on line, because, well, it would cause a lot of people sleep- less nights at the very least, but it would be inappropriate. If there is already existing freehold tenure owned — like, freehold — shouldn't somebody in the ministry maybe tell the applicant that this is not an appropriate application because it is on

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	20130716pm-Hansard-v3n4
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	20130716pm Hansard v3n4
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	408710bffa57300d3389b139bf5ccc36ad57a748

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