Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 54A (32nd Legislature, 4th Session)

32-4-54a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 23 May, 1985. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Welding: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . MINISTERIA L STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 1 have Return to Order of the House No. 18, on the motion of the Honourable Member for Niakwa. Mr. Speaker, I have one copy here; the Clerk has additional copies. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Business Development. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Speaker, it's my privilege to table the 19 83-84 Annual Report for Manfor. MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Health. HON. L. DESJAADINS: Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to table the Report of the Manitoba Nursing Review Committee that I received from the committee this morning. MA. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills ... INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MA. SPEAKER: Prior to Oral Questions. may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gall ery.

We have 25 students of Grade 9 standing from the Sisler High School under the direction of Mr. Brown. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for ln kster. There are 24 students of Grade 11 standing from the Ashern Central School under the direction of Mr. Moroz, and the school is in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Agriculture. There are 30 students of Grade 11 standing from the Murdoch MacKay School under the direction of Mr. Ptashinski, and the school is in the constituency of the Honourable Min ister of Energy and Mines.

On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Rosaire House - cutback in funding MR. SPEAK ER : The Ho nour able Leader of the Oppos ition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Honourable Min ister of Health and falls upon reports that Rosaire House at The Pas, a centre that has been used for temporary lodging for people under The Intoxicated Persons Detention Act, has as a result of cutbacks closed that

section of the house that would be used on a short-term basis for these people. I wonder if the Min ister could ind icate why, and why his department has cut the funds for this important purpose. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, if my honourable friend wants to kn ow why, he'd have to ask those that closed the house or are causing it to close. There has been no cutback this year In the grants.

I would like to say though that at this time the priorities of the Alcoholism Foundation are to treat patients, not necessarily to provide· shelter because of the change in the act. Now, the act will enable certain municipalities to make certain rulin gs. it is not compuls ory. it is optional, and if the municipalities decide to do that, it is our contention that some of the responsibility of providing shelter for their people is there. Now these discussions are going on and there's been zero increase, but no cutbacks from 1ast year. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, due to the fact that the Premier has complained against offtoading of costs from the Federal Government to the province in certain instances, why Is it now that the province is offtoading costs from the province, that were formerly picked up by a provincial agency, onto a municipal jurisdiction? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, If my honourable friend wants to listen carefully and watch carefully this evening, it might be that we might have good news and I might be able to announce tomorrow that we could provide some of these funds, If the Federal Government does their part. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder If the Min ister of Health would consider appealing to his Premier to take some of the $4 million in advertising costs that are committed by this government for this year, and allocate some $25,000 or $30,000, so that Rosaire House could continue to have people on a short-term detention basis for this purpose. HON. L. DESJARDINS: I guess my honourable friend means not follow their advice or what they did when they were in power, when they were advertising those grocery carts for an 80 cent increase - I think on minimum income -80 cents running around with a cart. Remember that ad? 2217

Thursday, 23 May, 1985 MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier. Would he not consider reallocating, on a priority basis, some of the funds that his government is intending to spend on advertising, so that Rosaire House could continue to be used on a short-term detoxification detention centre? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, here we have a program which the Honourable Minister of Health has indicated there has been no reduction by way of funding to th e Alcoholism Fou nda tion of Mani toba, and therefore the honourable member should take his concerns up with the AFM, but let the honourable member not suggest it's been because of a reduction in funding, unlike what took pla ce, federal and provincial, which the honourable members made reference to in respect to offloading.

This is not a case in which there has been a 5 percent reduction by way of transfer payments from the Federal Government to the province and there's been no such reduction onto the agencies. MR. G. FILMON: In view of the fact th at the admin istrator of the centre, Mr. Patmore, said that the 1984-85 Budget for the House was cut to $469,000 from $495,000, is that not a cutback in the eyes of the Premier? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, the cut was not this year. There was a cut last year . A MEMBER: Oh. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Wait a minute.

They had a surplus that they were allowed to keep, they were told to priorlze, like every other institution and any group. I guess they felt that we weren't serious, that at the last minute we could provide these funds. The policy this year has been zero increase in most instances, and this is what happened in this instance. Income tax collection - possible proposal by province MR. SPEAKER: The Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speak er, my question is for the Premier. He's quoted today as saying that the province is considering having its own income tax collection system.

I wonder if he could indicate whether he knows what that might cost the province to go its own on the income tax collection system. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, what I indicated, if the honourable member had read carefully, is tha t we might reluctantly be compelled to consider such.

If there is not initiative on the part of the Federal Government in Ottawa to ensure that there is greater job creation as a result of today's Budget, if there is not an effort on the part of the Federal Government to deal with some of the tax loopholes as they presently exist - and I would hope, and I noticed the honourable mem ber, by the way - and I must congratulate the honourable mem ber - has received the support of the Prime Minister.

I think he probably deserves congratulations from honourable members in the Chamber and possibly we should provide Frank Miller's phone num ber to the honourable member; it might be of some assistance. Mr. Speaker, I wait with anticipation for the Budget tonight.

I wait for the Budget tonight to see whether or not there is a serious effort to combat joblessness through economic and job thrusts; I look forward to see whether or not there is a conscious and deli berate effort to comply with the paper that was distribut ed at the Federal-Provincial Conference in February on the part of the Province of Manitoba, asking for elimination of the various loopholes that presently exist in the tax system. That's what we're looking for, Mr. Speaker.

I think it's time that there be a proper response on the part of the Federal Government to tighten up these loopholes to resist the escape of billions of dol lars from the tax system. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I think that the Premier is hallucinating again. Yesterday he was talking about "fourth world countries," today he's talking about Frank Mill er's phone number. The question is, does he know how much it would cost for the province to go its own way for the income tax collection system? HON. H.

PAWLEY: You can be sure if there is a lack of iniative on the part of the Federal Government, we'll have a figure by which we can tell you what it would cost , Mr. Sp eaker. I am hopin g that hono urable members across the way would join some of their - in fact, even some of the other western Conservative leaders and join with us in urging that our taxation system be geared not towards creating more loopholes insofar as those in our society that escape taxation, but rather geared towards job creation and economic development.

That's what the Honourable Leader of the Opposition has to answer; that's the position that the Honourable Leader of the Opposition should be taking rather than waffling all over the place in respect to taxation and economic policy. MR. G. FILMON: My question to the Premier Is, should the province decide to collect its own taxes, what reforms will ttiat bring to the income tax system in Canada? MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The question is hypothetical. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: You haven't improved since yesterday, I'll tell you. You were bad then, you're worse today. Mr.

Speaker, my question for the Premier is and follows upon a comment he is alleged to have made, in which he said that consideration of constitutional 2218

Thursday, 23 May, 1985 MR. SPEAKER: Question. MR. G. FILMON: In view of the fact that the Premier has apparently said that constitutional talks would divert attention from crucial economic issues and focus atte ntion on language sores, my question to the Premier is, did he not consider that we had serious economic problems and concerns to give our attention to in 1983 and 1984 when he convulsed this province for over a year on a constitutional amendment to do with the language question? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

As wel l as being argumenta tive, the que stion seeks information about matters of historical interest. Oral Questions are supposed to be for the purpose of gaining information on somewhat urgent matters. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, in ref erring to a proposal for constitutional amendment in Canada, the Premier is quoted as saying that our No. 1 priority must be employment and job crea tion. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Question. MR. G.

FILMON: Why was that not the Premier's No. 1 priority in 1983 and 1984 when he convulsed this province on a constitutional amendment on th e language question? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. That is the same question. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. A MEMBER: He can ask it for 40 minutes without gett ing a reply . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker , the Premier Is quoted as saying, during the time when we do have major economic dislocation, we run the risk of opening up historic langua ge sores. Did we not have economic problems and high une mployment and difficulties with our economy in 1983 and 1984 when he brought . MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. 1 pointed out to the honourable member twice that he has asked the same question. I do not expect it to be asked a third time. Oral Questions. The Honour able Memb er for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Employment Services. MR.

SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable First Minister on a point of order. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I know that the Leader of the Opposition has had difficulty framing his question, but I'm wondering, with leave of the House, if I could respond despite the difficulties that the Leader of the Opposition has had in framing his question. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Does the Honourable First Minister have leave? Order please. Order please. Leave having not been granted, the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G.

FILMON: Mr. Speaker, perhaps this will enable the Premier to answer the question. The Premier is quoted today as saying that the economy and job creation are more important than constitutional reform and the language question. My question Is, what has changed versus 1983-84, when he apparently did not share that view? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'm delighted that you did not see fit to rule that question out of order and, after three times out, now the Leader of the Opposition's apparently got his question right. Mr.

Speaker, the Honourable Leader of the Opposition has sat in this Chamb e r since November of 1981, and if the Leader of the Opposition had ears to hear and eyes to see, he would know that this New Democratic Party Government, unlike the Conservative Gove rnment of 1977-1981, has persistently throughout its term, put job creation and economic development as priority No. 1. I have never, since I've been sitting in this Chamber since 1969, witnessed such an irresp onsible group across the way that has never, never placed job creation as their No. 1 priority insofar as their position. Talk about convulsion, Mr.

Speaker, that opposition's been in a state of convulsion ever since December 1, 198 1, and still haven't been able to adjust from the convulsions they've gone through. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, that being the case then, why did he insist with his administration on spending more than a year pursuing a constitutional amendment on the language issue? Why? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, let the Honourable Leader of the Opposition not attempt to erase history; let him not attempt to edit history.

The convulsion, the del ay, the procrastination, the indecision, rests solely over a period of one year on the part of the Leader of the Opposition and his colleagues in this Cham ber. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. MR. F. JOHNSTON: You're the one that backed down. 2219

Thursday, 23 May, 1985 Youth Business Start Program - approval of applications MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Employment Services and Economic Security. Can the Mi nister advise the Hous e how many applications under the Youth Business Start Program have received approval? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mi nister of Employment Services. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member asks a detailed que stion. I'll take the question as notice and provide the member with that information.

Assessment regulations - super-insulated homes MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: A que stion to the Mi nister of Muni cipal Affairs. Has the Minister considered making a change to The Asses sment Act or assess ment regulations that would take away the penalty which is presently in place for people who build super-insula ted homes? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Muni cipal Affairs. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, I have not given consideration to the removal of a penalty, Sir, because no such penalty exists.

The assessment system is designed to assess homes on the basis of value and if a super-insula ted home has greater value because it is super-insulated, it then has a higher assessment. That's not a penalty, Sir, that's a reflection of value. Cream quotas MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Agriculture. Many cream shippers in Manitoba have filled their quo tas and are not allowed to ship their cream between now and the end of July without being penalized over 80 percent.

They're not allowed to transfer from one shipper to the othe r. Can the Minister indicate whether he is prepared to intervene to help some of these people, many of whom rely on this as their main source of income? MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rab le Mini ster of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member knows that the matter of qu otas in terms of the setting of quo tas is not a matter directly under my jurisdiction. However, - (Interjection) - Mr.

Speaker, the Milk Board of the province, the Milk Marketing Board in negotiations with the other Milk Marketing Boards and the Canadian Dairy Commission do set the Canadian dairy quota of which a portion of that quota is allocated for cream shippers. Mr. Speaker, this issue arose several times in the last numb er of years when the Milk Board, in fact, did not recognize the increasing production on the cream side having uti lized that quota for the production of milk. As a result, there were, In fact, a year ago, problems in the cream industry.

The production of cream did drop off over the next number of months so the Milk Board thought that things were well in hand and the quota could remain quite open. However, Mr. Speaker, in the month of April, as I understand it, production of cream in this province has reached an all-time high and the Milk Board will have - (Interjection) - Well, Mr. Speaker, . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. B. URUSKI: . . . Mr. Speaker, let the honourable members make light of a difficulty that many producers face in the cream industry. That's the kind of nonsense that we get from members opposite. Mr. Speaker, it is a ... MR.

SPEAKER: Order please. HON. B. URUSKI: . . . serious situation faced by many produce rs who are producing cream at a time when I understand that creameries would like to produce butte r, there is a difficulty because of the national agreement, Mr. Speaker. We have not been asked by the Milk Board to assist in any negotiations, but we're certainly prepared to assist them. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister. I thought the Minister of Agriculture was responsible for the Milk Producers Marketing Board.

Can the Minister assure cream processors who require cream and are not allowed to take cream at the present time, that they will have that opportunity to take and buy cream from shippers so they do not have to pour it out on the ground or feed it to the pigs? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I think I should advise the honourable member the structure of marketing boards in this province. Mr. Speaker, the producers of commodities have the opportunity to establish marketing boards. The boards are elected by th e producers of tha t particular commodi ty. They operate under a particular piece of legislation.

The setting of quo tas internally to the industry is the responsibility of the board. Mr. Speaker, there are two areas which the Province of Manitoba is respo nsible for - inte rprovincia l agreements in terms of overall quota, in terms of th ose negotiations and the capitalization of quota in which the province has been involved. Those are the two strict areas where my department, through the Natural Products Marketing Council, has been involved and, of course, appeals against rulings by marketing boards. Other than that, Mr. Speaker, 2220

Thursday, 23 May, 1985 the boards are autonomous and operate their own industry as th ey, in terms of their judgment, see fit. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister. Will this Minister assure cream producers and cream processors, because of the restriction tha t's put on them at the present time, that they will not be forced to bring in butter from Quebec to be sold to the people of Manitoba? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I certainly would be very concerned and that may be the case in - (Interjection) - Mr.

Speaker, now we have members of the opposition wanting the government to interfere in the workings of marketings boards. On one side of the question they want us to keep away, to keep our hands off the produc ers and the boards, and now when it's to their advantage, they want us to interfere in the workings of the board. They can't have it both ways. Mr. Speaker, we will work with the boards if they wish us to assist them in terms of the national negotiations, but they can't have it both ways.

When they want to, they want us to interfere; and when in fact something happens the other way, they want us to keep our hands off. Mr. Speaker, they can't have it both ways. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister. Can the Minister indicate to the people of Manitoba that his Manitoba appointed Marketing Council has put a restriction on the transfer of quo tas to the dairy producers of Manitoba? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, the policy that is in place in the Province of Manitoba is the identical policy that was put into place in 1978 by the former Minister of Agriculture. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur . MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order to truly correct a statement that the Minister of Agriculture has just made. The point of order is that this House has been told that the current policy being administered is one which was admin istered under our admin istration prior to his term of office. if that were the case, we wouldn't be having the difficulties in the dair y ind ustry th at are now created un der his government. I have a question to the Minister of Agriculture, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. That was not a point of order.

Does the honour able member have a question? The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order. The Honourable Member for Arthur . MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minister of Agriculture is ... HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I rise on the same point of order that was raised by the member ... MR. J. DOWNEY: My question, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Arthur . MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question to the Minister of Agriculture is, in view of the fact that today in Manitoba we have many hardw orking family farm people, mi lking cows , producing cream to ship to provide a daily income for their families and their needs; will the Minister of Agriculture become directly involved and allow those people to ship and sell their cream to creameries that need the cream , and , Mr. Spea ker, to provide a necessary income for those people who are emp loyed in the creameries as well?

Will he become directly involved to provide and save the livelihoods of many young and older family farm people in this province? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, when we hear members opposite speak about allowing everyone to produce as much as they want, let it be understood that what they are advocating is the demise of marketing boards and the orderly marketing structure in this province. That is what they are advocating.

So for those producers, Sir, who are in market ing boards and in su pply-managed commodities with guaranteed incomes, the members of the Conservative Party are advocating the demise and the wrecking of the marketing boards, Mr. Spea ker. Let them understand how marketing boards arose.

And they talked about chickens when the chicken industry and the egg industry in this country was in chaos in the late 1960s, when everyone who was in egg production was leaving production. - (Interjection) - Well, they made comments and I want to answer tho se questions, because they raise certain allegations that are not factual, and what they are proposing, Sir, is the wrecking of orderly market ing in this province by the various statements that they are making. There is a concern, and I am prepared to work with the Milk Marketing Board vis-a-vis the cream shippers of this province.

This isn'-t the first time that this has occurred, when the Milk Marketing Board has not accurately projected what the production in cream would be in this province. There is a global formula and Manito ba's producers are subject to that global formula. The assertion that somehow the non-tr ansfer of quota between produc ers did the cream producers some harm, Mr. Speaker, I don't buy and it is not factual. it's total rubbish. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that in Manitoba to day, we have hardworking people producing an agricultural commodi ty, small farmers, who are unable to sell their commodity to the creameries of this province, why will the Minister of Agriculture not get involved and defend these small young operating farmers in this province? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member who happens to have been - and it's fortunate that he 2221

Thursday , 23 May, 1985 isn't anymore - a Minister of Agriculture in this province should know the procedures used by the boards. If there is a dispute between a producer and his marketing board, that dispute should be taken to the Natural Products Marketing Council, who will view the dispute and rule on that dispute in light of how the board has carried out its activites in the granting of quota or the quota application. The Natural Products Marketing Council is the appropriate body that would rule on those kinds of Issues. Mr.

Speaker, we would be pleased and I would be pleased to have producers make those appeals to the Natural Products Marketing Council and let the council view them and see how the board has in fact carried out its quo ta allocation pol icy. MR. J. DOWNEY: This question is to the First Minister. In view of the fact that his Minister of Agriculture will not stand up in defence of many family farm operators who are desperately trying to make a living in this province, will the First Minister replace his Minister of Agriculture? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, let it be clear if we compare the commitment, the dedication of this Minister of Agriculture under this gove rnment, and contrast ... SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. HON. H. PAWLEY: ... that to the irresponsi bility and do-nothingism of the previous Minister of Agriculture in this province from 1977 to 198 1, let it be clear I have no problems of conscience in saying that I am proud of our Minister of Agriculture in this province and what he's doing in this province on behalf of the family farms. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. Fede ral Budget - con sultation with Premie r of Man. MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Member for Aiel. MRS. D. DODICK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a que stion for the First Minister. Can the Premier inform this House as to whether or not he has been consulted on the development of today's Budget by the Federal Finance Minister, Michael Wilson, or the Deputy Premi er, Erik Nielsen? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H.

PAWLEY: I thank the Honou rable Mem ber for Aiel for what is a very timely question in view of the commencement of the Budget Address, which I believe will take place about 55 minutes from now in the House of Commons. Mr.

Speaker, I, of course, have not been consulted by the two gentlemen referred to by the member, but I would hope that the two gentlemen referred to would have read the submissions that were presented at the Vale ntine's Day Conference of Federal and Provincial First Ministers in Regina this year and would have care fully weighed the proposals of this New Democratic Party Gove rnment, that the No. 1 priority, Mr.

Speaker, must be job creation and economic development in Canada In order to elimina te the some 1.4 million to 1.5 million that are joble ss in this country, to which there had been a commitment made on September 4th that they would in fact find jobs. That's No. 1 commitment. No. 2, Mr.

Speaker, I would hope that the Minister of Finance would weigh the proposals that we made at the Valent ine's Day meeting in respect to the urgent need for tax reform in this country; and particularly I would refer all honourable members to the document which was tabled in this House on May 16th in regard to tax reform, the tax reform paper that we sub mitted at the Grande Prairie Conference insofar as the need for tax reform in this country and I'm looking forward to the Budget announcement now 42 minutes distant. Manitoba Hydro - compensa tion re damage from power surge s MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Speaker, I address my question to the Acting Minister in charge of Manitoba Hydro. Surveys indicate that well over a hundred of my constituents in and around the Ste. Agathe district have experienc ed major da mage to their electrical appliances. In two unrelated situations, one constituent of mine had a bag of dog food that was leaning against an unused baseboard heater burst into flame. Another constituent had upwards of a dozen light bulbs explode within their house.

The surge of voltage that has caused the damage was not directly related to lightning. My question to the Minister, will Manitoba Hydro compensate the homeowners for their losses if human error can be shown to be the cause of this damage? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Culture. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'll take that question as notice and provide a report to the House as soon as I can get the information from Manitoba Hydro. Afr ican co untries - fu nding to MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to respond to the question that was presented to me yesterday by the Honourable Member for St. Nor bert pert aining to the funding from the Province of Manitoba to the Ethiopian situation. 2222

Thursday, 23 May, 1985 All the funding has been done through MCIC. The total amount of funding has been $98,297, plus those monies that would be made available as a result of the exemption of the sales tax in regard to the albums that are being sold in the Province of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I thank the First Minister for that answer. I would ask him, does he think $98,000 is a fair and humane contribution from the Province of Manitoba towards the starving 30 million people in Africa? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The question seeks an opinion.

Would the ho nour able mem ber wish to rephrase his question to seek information? The Honourable Mem ber for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, is the First Minister considering, on behalf of the Province of Manitoba and the people of Manitoba, making a more generous contribution towards the suffering and the starving that is going on in Africa? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, clearly no amount of money that can be raised in Manitoba or contributed by Manitobans or through the Government of the Province of Manitoba is sufficient in order to deal with the terrible ordeal that has been inflicted upon millions of famine victims, not only in Ethiopia but in Chad and Sudan and so many of the other countries of the world. I don't know what is the proper measurement of what is sufficient or not.

I think that what would be of interest when we talk about this is to join, maybe even to consider unanimously in this House, a resolution to the Federal Government urging that there not be a cut back insofar as federal aid is concerned insofar as the Third World count ries. This is not the time to obviously cut back on aid to the Third or the Fourth World countr ies which are inflicted with famine and immense economic hardship. Possibly, Mr. Speaker, the two House Leaders might want to consider a resolution that would voice the appropriate conc ern to those tha t are mai nly responsible for foreign aid in Canada.

MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I would have hoped that the Premier would not have turned this que stion into some sort of an attack on another level of government in the country. I would have expected the First Minister to answer the question and state a position in a humane way, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable First Minister on a point of order. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I regret if any mem ber, and ob viou sly the Mem ber for St. Norb ert has interpreted my comments as an attack. lt's not an attack, Mr.

Speaker. lt was a statement of fact and a statement by which I hope that all honourable members might be able to join hands by way of supporting a proposal that I think would be very very constructive to demonstrate the concerns of members in this House. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. That may have been an explanation; it was not a point of order. Manfor - reason for delay in tabling annual report MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister responsible for Manfor, who tabled the Manfor Report in the Legislature today containing the Provincial Auditor's Report dated November 30, 1984. Could the Minister explain why it took the Chairman of Manfor until April 2, 1985 to send the report dated Novem ber 30, 1984, from the Provincial Auditor to him, as Minister, and why it took him from April 2nd to May 22nd to table this in the House? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Busi ness Development. HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Speaker, I recognize how urgently members opposite wanted the report and we altered some of the plans that were in process to develop a more extensive annual report, given their desire to have the pertinent information, made a decision to forward and table this particular report. If the member had been more patient, perhaps it could have been delivered In a different form. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister responsible for Manfor.

Since the Minister has indicated that the consultant's report containing recommendations on the operation of Manfor has been made available to representatives of the CPU and IWA, would the Minister consider providing at least one copy to members on this side of the House? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Busi ness Development. HON. J. STORIE: No, Mr. Speaker.

I have indicated to others that this particular report is a corporate document for use within the corporation. lt is going to be used to do something that they never had the political fortitude to do and that was make some changes in Manfor, to put In place a management structure that would work, to put in place a corporate attitude that would make it into a successful corporation. We intend to do that. I don't believe that there is any1hlng to be gained by providing honourable members with a copy. I've indicated that I'm perfectly willing to sit down with the honour able member and explain . MR.

SPEAKER: Order please. HON. J. STORIE: . . . what the consultant's report says and why it says that and what we're doing about it, but there is certainly no point in tabling a copy of that report for members opposite. 2223

Thursday, 23 May, 1985 Manfo r - con sultant's repo r t MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I wonder if the Minister could tell the House this afternoon how much did the consultant's report cost the taxpayers of Manitoba. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Speak er, the consultant's report was paid for by Manfor. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF TH E DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Agriculture, that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. I might add, Mr. Speaker , the Estimates of the Department of Agriculture will continue in the Chamber. The Estimates of the Department of Culture, Heritage and Recreation will continue In Committee Room 255. MOTION presented. MATTER OF GRIE VA NCE MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I'd like to take this opportunity for the privilege of using up my grie vance and the concerns that I want to express this afternoon continue with the questions that were raised in the House this afternoon regard ing the cream shippers and generally the attitude of the Minister of Agriculture in terms of dealing with this problem or lack of dealing with it. - (lnterjection)- Well, Mr. Speaker , I tried to raise the question a few times before because it is a matter of urgenc y. There's more and more people getting involved and being affected by what's happe ning in the cream industry right now.

The Minister has not been respo nding properly. He's been fudging around and throwing the blame all over the place, in fact, even blaming the previous Minister of Agriculture saying that he's following those kind of policies and it is for this reason that I'd like to maybe and try and put on the record some of the concerns and what is happening. This whole thing has been mushrooming for the last couple of weeks.

In fact, a week ago last Saturday to the Manitoba Milk Producers Marketing Board, a cream board was established who came together and decided that they would not allow any further transfers of quotas between the cream shippers. Mr. Speaker , there is a difference betw� the fluid milk shipper and the cream shipper. The transfer of quotas with the fluid shipper has already been stopped by the Manitoba Milk Marketing Council or the Manitoba Marketing Council some time ago. The difference was that the cream shipper has always had the availability to him to transfer quotas from one cream shipper to the next.

There's never been value involved because many of the cream shippers do not fulfill their quotas. Many of them do not even ship cream. Until now it's always been allowed that if a cream shipper had maybe too much cream, that he could then go to a neighbour and say are you not using your quota and it was allowed to be transferred. That has been stopped. As a result of that, there's many people now that are being affected by it. We have to unde rstand the kind of people that are being affected by it.

In many cases, it's some of our older farmers that maybe are not that active in terms of grain farming, extensive cattle farming, but that need this kind of income until they get to a pension age, that use this kind of money that they get from cream shipping to pay their hydro bills, their telephone bills, groceries. lt's minimal but I want to illustrate a case just of what exactly what has happened and why it is of major concern. There was a lady in the southeast part of the province who has reached apparently that plateau of her quota that she's not allowed to ship anymore.

Many of them don't understand the system. In fact, many people in this House don't understand the system properly and I think the Minister of Agriculture doesn't under stand it properly. This lady was shipping her cream, her couple of cans a week and her cheque was supposed to be $1 18 in two weeks time. What happened by the time she got penalized for overproduction, she gets $21.65. - (Interjection) - This lady is desolate at this stage of the game. These people are too proud. They don't want to turn around and go apply for social services, for welfare. They have their little holdings. They've been getting by.

The Minister can speak all he wants about the fact that there is a system in place and overpro duction and yelling about us being against supply management. That is not the case. This Minister has failed to realize his respon sibility. What he has done, the re's a little difference between what's happening in the fluid industry which he has effect ively stopped the quota of transfers, but has now done it in the cream industry, the cream producers

section of it. That is crea ting a lot of turmoil out there. Mr. Speaker, I fully realize that under supply man agement, there are quo tas that have to be established, have been established and people have to operate within that guideline. There are many pounds of unused quota in the cream industry, in the cream producers sect ion, that could be used that are not being used. If the quota is out there why will they not allow the transfer of that from one to the other so that they could get the maximum utilization of quota for the Province of Manitoba.

The other thing that this Minister has not done - in fact, he's done nothing - I would have suggested that he deal with the federal people in terms of trying to get some quota for the cream shippers, at least. The impact is much different on these people than on any other people. The other thing that bothers me, I was che cking the processors th1s afternoon and they need the cream. They want the cream and they don't know, they'll be 2224

Thursday, 23 May, 1985 having to lay off people and shut down in some cases because they won't be able to have the cream because the quo tas are filled up and still they have customers that they produce butter for that needed supply. What happened to the one processor - I can be very blunt; it's a fellow by the name of Don Stotski, he runs the Vita Co-op - he indicates that they had anticipated being pressured again - and it's happened once before -o r they'll have to buy the butter from Quebec, package it here and then sell it. That is the thing that is wrong.

When we have our people that cannot produce and because of the system the way it is set up, that we will have to be bringing in butter from Quebec or Ontario, from the eastern part of Canada, that is tragic. There is no way that you can explain to anybody that this is fair. 1 think there has to be a readjustment done of these things. it's creating many concerns. Initia lly, it was only a few people.

When I tried to raise it last week, and 1 tried to raise it initially in the Estimates of Agricultu re, there was only a few people involved. it's mushrooming now as everybody is starting to hit that plateau where their quota has filled up and the rumblings are going to be impacted for a long ways down the line. The dairies in Manitoba are not necessarily, and the cream shippers are not necessarily the ones that are overproducing. The fact of the matter is that we have, I believe, not our fair share of quota. - (Interjection) - We have a surplus of butter right now, extensive surplus.

The fact of the matter is that I don't think that Manitoba is creating the problems in terms of surplus butter in Canada. The fact that we have dairies out there that are employing people that need the cream will be shutting down in the small commun ities because of what's happening right now. The one lady that I talked to tod ay, I said, what are you doing with your cream now. She's cut off. it's interesting enough if she would keep on shipping this cream, the penalty gets to the point where, I suppose, the questions asked me are - how much can they penalize us? Where does this money go?

I said, that is a penalty tha t supposedly you'r e paying for overprod uction. What are you doing with your cream right now? She says, we have a few hogs and we're utilizing part of it by feeding the hogs with it. That portion of it that we can't use we're pouring on the ground. This is a tragedy when we talk of starvation through the world, that we can't develop a system where we can utilize food. Our people in Manitoba and Canada can produce an awful lot of food and it is a tragedy that we can't work out a system to utilize this, so that we can help people in the starving world. The Member for St.

Norbert has raised a question of how much money has been spent by this government for aid to Ethiopia? The concern is a valid concern. What bothers me is that we have people who are out there, can produce food and are going to be penalized and have to dump food. That ties into the situation with the hog operation at the present time. I talked with some of my hog operators now, operators that used to ship across the line. They have now been cut off from shipping their hogs across the line, part of a trade problem.

The people that are actually involved financially and are having to pay the bills and having the bankers come down hard on them because they can't sell their hogs across the line, which is bringing the price down here; they can't understand the rationale very often why governments can't resolve these things in terms of trade and stuff like that. Many of these people that are farmers, they have one concern. They're good farmers. They produce food. This is what they know. They produce grain, livestock, whatever the case may be. That is their bag.

That is what they are professionals in and they can't understand why governments cannot resolve these things in terms of trade agreements, many of these aspects of it, and it is a tragedy that happens in this respect. Why I rose on a grievance today, Mr. Speaker, is because even in the Estimates in the last few days with the Minister of Agriculture, I have not been happy and I think my colleagues have not been happy with his attitude.

I think he's playing politics with the whole system of agriculture when he pulled a boner there with his interest programs to some degree and he called it a backfire and he lost some credibil ity. He took off and travelled across Manitoba on a good-will tour, in trying to promote his image again. I think we're at that time, Mr. Speaker, where we have to have a much more conscientious effort by this Min ister of Agriculture, by this Prem ier, by other Ministers of Agriculture across Canada, federally as well, because the agricultural community is starting to suffer.

We have squeezed the efficiency from our farmers to the point where I don't know how much more you can squeeze; and I said this 10 or 15 years ago; we have squeezed them to the breaking point and many of them are still getting efficient all the time. I don't know how far this can continue to go on, but ulti mately I believe this system will break. The cost of production has escalated to the point - just in the few years that I have been in the agricultur al busi ness - has escalated to the point - take fertilizer costs, take the machine costs.

There are are so many things that are basically creating a lot of pressure on the farmers. The tragedy of it is that the average age of our farmers is 56 years. Very few young farmers have any possibility of ever getting into it, unless they're affiliated with their fathers or there are some special benefits that they can get in terms of starting off. An average young individual who has gone through university , taken the diploma degree course, unless there's big financial help somewhere, cannot get into the farming business. Mr.

Speaker, it is this average age of 56 that scares me a little bit, because that age keeps creeping up and we need long-range planning and we haven't had long range planning and this is why I'm concerned about just the thing that is affecting the cream shippers right now. lt seems like it's only affecting not that terribly many people. lt is affecting the agricultural community and the ripple effect will be dramatic. lt will be dramatic.

When the dairies have to close down - the Minister had to leave momentarily, I guess, when I was referring to the Vita Co-op - which claims they need the milk or the cream and they have customers. They're not overproducing out there. They're selling it. Their customers want that. What's going to happen, ·because of the way the system is, farmers are going to be pouring out their cream and feeding it to hogs. The dairy is going to have to lay off people and not be able to produce butter, and the customers - the customers that they 2225

Thursday , 23 May, 1985 have that want their product -they're going to have to go buy it somewhere else. The fact of the matter is, that that somewhere else is going to be from the east. That butter is going to be brought in from Quebec and Ontario and that is a tragedy. That is the thing that I am trying to illustrate to this Minister. Regardless of what the system is, if the system isn't good, then change the darn system. Get involved in it. Don't say, well, my hands are tied, we have the Manitoba Milk Producers Marketing Board, change the darned thing.

Because what I'm going to do, if the Mi nister doesn't want to - (Interjection) - What I'm going to do is tell all these people and I hope the people out there become aware of it, they will phone this Minis ter of Agriculture and ask him why he is not doing something about it. I indicated before, fight for more quota on the national level. Allow the transfers among the· cream shippers, the quota is there.

There is quota among the cream shippers right now, and I ind icated before, in the dair y you've stopped, now you've stopped it among the cream shippers -the tran sfer of quota -and it's going to be a very difficult thing for many people to live with. Mr. Speaker, there are many other areas in the agricultural community that I could speak on. What has happened is, I think we've developed an attitude of playing politics with our major indus try In the province. You're playing politics with agriculture. The Minis ter is not sincere in terms of trying to do the best for the farm communi ty.

I want to just touch back on the hog Ind ustry for example. One of my producers went down personally to South Dakota to try and talk to the governor to see whether he could get a permit to ship hogs down there. Why is this Minister not involved in these things, showing a sincere attempt to try and resolve the problems in the agricultural communit y? We have the same thing in the dairy indus try -and 1 differentiate between the cream shippers and the dairy ind ustry -where he is not allowing transfer of quota.

This is done by the Manitoba Marketing Council which is appointed by this Min ister, who fulfilled policy as he wants it, and it's creating major problems out there. The Minis ter has put his blinders on and he refuses to consider and listen to the producers when they come up with their suggestions. Mr. Speaker, I don't know how or what other way to raise the concern of the cream shi ppers in Manitoba for this Minis ter. This is the only avenue, I supp ose, that 1 have available to me to bring the concerns forward.

When we get Into the Estimates, I hope we will continue this until we have some answers from this Mini ster, telling us how he views this situation and what he is going to do. People out there don't want excuses. Tell us what you will do with the matter. There must be some ways to resolve it. He has that responsibility; he has the staff, the resources available to do that kind of thing.

So I hope that the Minister will come up with some kind of an ind ication so that I can go back to the people out there, the cream shippers, and give them some answers that are going to be at least satisfactory and give them some hope. They can continue to at least meet their immed iate needs, without having to go and took for welfare from their mu nicipalities. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

QUE STION put, MOTION carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Suppl y to be granted to Her Ma jesty with The Honourable Member for River East in the Chair for the Department of Agriculture, and The Honour able Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Culture, Heritage and Recreation. CONCURRENT COM MITTE ES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY • CULTURE, HE RITAGE AND RECREA TION MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santoa: Committee, please come to orde r. We are on Item No. 3.(g)( 1) Translation Services: Salaries; 3.(gX2) Other Expenditures -the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: I was finished on that yesterday, Mr. Chairman, pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(gX1)-p ass; 3.(gX2)- pass. 3.(hX 1) Citizens' Inquiry Service: Salaries; 3.(h)

(2) Other Expenditures. MR. F. JOHNSTON: This is the same as it was last year. lt looks like a reduction in staff, but it's the same. it's the same duties they had last year? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minis ter. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, same duties. There's no reduction in staff; there's a reduction due to reclassifications. The same numb er of staff though, six permanent staff. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Is this the Citizens' . . . Sorry, I guess it's Inquir y; I'm mistaken. Just quickly then, Is the 943-6119 , which is a service to people with visual problems, used all that often? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I'm told it's used infrequently.

We can get numb ers if the member wants, subsequent. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Is the Citizens' Inqu iry basically inquir ies as to government generally? This has nothing to do with information, tourist Information or anything of that nature. HON. E. KOSTYRA: No, it's basically providing a referral service asking what the caller is interested In and then making sure that they get connected with the appropriate department and person and they're patched right in. They're not just given a phone numb er to call, but they're referred directly to the appropriate branch or department. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Pass. MR.

CH AIRMAN: 3. (h) (1 )-p ass; 3. (h) (2)- pass. Resolution No. 44: MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I wonder If the Minister would be agreeable to jump do wn to Expenditur es Related to Capital and if he could just 2226

Thureday, 23 May, 1985 give me the list of the Capital Expenditures and I would pass that too. HON. E. KOSTYRA: I agree. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution No. 44: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty, a sum not exceeding $2,511,000 for Culture, Heritage and Recreation, Commun ications Services for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1986- pass. Let me call Item No. 5. 5.(

a) Expenditu res Related to Capital, Acquisition/Construction of Physical Assets; 5.(

b) Capital Grants - Mr. Minister. HON. E. KOSTYRA: The (

a) part of $43,600 is as follows: St. Norbert Heritage Park, $17,500, which is basically the last of the money being paid for that current phase of that development and this will be opening this spring. There's a possibility of doing further phases of that development but none are planned at the present time. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Just the amount again, Mr . Chairman, I didn't . . HON. E. KOSTYRA: 17,500.00. The other part of the 5.(

a) is $26,100 for Building Surveys which is an ongoing program and it's what Is popularly referred as the early building survey. This year to date, they have done Boissev ain, Killarney, Brandon, Portage la Prairie, Neepawa and will be doing Dauphin this year. The second part, the Capital Grants, 470,000 are as follows: Ma nitoba Centennial Centre Corporation $132 ,200; Museum of Man and Nature $100,0 00; We stern Manitoba Centennial Auditorium $42,800.00. MR. F. JOHNSTON: What was that again? HON. E. KOSTYRA: $42,800, the Westman Centennial Auditorium.

There are contingency cultural facilities, capital grants of $20,000; that's for any emergency repairs to any of the major facilities. Then there's $175,000 for the Multicultural Capital Grants Program which Is the same as last year. The reductions are In the area of the Manitoba Centennial Centre Corporation, basically. MR. F. JOHNSTON: I have just one que stion on that. The St. Norbert Heritage Park, does that have any involvement with the ARC Program? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: The ARC Program was respo nsible for doing part of th e development there. lt was something that was initiated In 1975-76. lt was a departmental function and it was picked up and enhanced through ARC. MR. F. JOHNSTON: I have no further questions on Capital, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, my questions concern these cheques that were handed out a year or so ago.

I want to know the basis of them then and whether there are continuing grants because the Minister, as I under stand it, concocted a special ceremony one day, invited all the ethnic groups here and then handed out two cheques for $50,000 each, one to the Hindu Society and one to the Philippine Association, both very tiny groups, and I want to know, first of all, whether there were additional grants and for what purpose those first grants were made? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The member is somewhat wrong on his facts. First of all, there was no cheques handed out at the function that the member's ref erring to.

There was, as a separate activity that day, a press conference for the media, which outlined a number of initiatives in the multicultural area which included these grants and other activities. In terms of the Grant Program, the Grant Program has been in existence since 1976 and has continued since 1976 to the present date. The criteria has been the same for at least the last five or six years, as far as I know. I don't know if the member is interested in the response - probably not - so maybe I won't bother giving any more. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, to be specific, was this one of a series.

For example, the Hindu Society or the Philippine Association, was this a one-time $50,000 grant or $50,000 a year for sev eral years·? HON. E. KO STYRA: If the mem ber would have bothered to listen to the answer I was providing to his first que stion, he would have got the answer and I'll take him through it slowly, Mr. Chairman, so that he will understand. MR. R. DOERN: Go ahead. HON. E.

KOSTYRA: This Grant Program has been in existence since 1976 and has been in existence, in a simila r form, since that time with the · amount of assistance available under the program increasing - I apologize to some of the members for having to repeat everyt hing. lt has increased in total amounts from the early years of being a maximum of $50,000, where one grant was allowed, to the present day when it's a maximum of $175,000, Which allows for a number of grants.

The criteria for the Grant Program has been the same since the Sev enties, which is, it's for capital purposes for organizations who are non-profit, ethnocultural, commun ity-based organizations for the purpose of constructing, renova ting or purchasing facilities to be used in areas relating to multiculturalism. There's a program brochure that I'll pass to the member, if he's interested in reading it, on the guidelines on the program. The grants that have been awarded in the year that the member was questioning were to, I believe, three organizations, the Hindu Society, the Philip pine Association of Manitoba.

In addition, over the years, there's been grants to Canada's. National Ukrainian Fest ival, the Indian and Metis and Friendship Centre, the Italian-Canadian League of Winnipeg, Ukrainian organization, Lebanese organization, Canadian Polish Congress, Caribbean Canadian Association, Colored 2227

Thureday, 23 May, 1985 People's Social Charitable Organization, Association of Pakistani Canadia ns, Selo Ukraina, Ukrainian National Federation, Citizenship Council of Manitoba International Centre. Once an organization does receive a grant, they are not eligible for another grant for the same capital project. The program provides grants of up to $50,000 maximum and the grants have to be matched by at least two-thirds by the sponsoring organization, so an organization could get the maximum grant of $50,000 if they were having a project that was $150,000 or more. MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, then the Minister is saying that in both instances this was the total amount of the contribution; $50,000 to the Hindu Society and $50,000 to the Philippine Association? HON. E. KOSTYRA: In terms of capital grants from the Province of Manitoba, I believe the Philippine Association received for that project money from the Core Area Initiatives. MR. R. DOERN: In addition? HON. E. KOSTYRA: In addition. MR. R. DOERN: But from the Provincial Government, 1983 or whatever year that was, 1983 or'84, there was a $50,000 cheque and no additional money since? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Not for any capital grants under the Capital Grants Program. MR. R. DOERN: Is the Minister now saying that the maximum cheque for a particular project has now escalated to 175,000? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I'll try it slowly again, Mr. Chairman. The total amount of money that's budgeted for this program is $175,0 00.00. The total amount of grant to any organization is $50,000.00. That has remained the same. The only thing that has increased over the years · is the total amount of budget. it was increased from $50,000 in 1976-77 total budget, to a total budget today of $175,000.00.

The maximum grant of $50,000 has remained constant since 1976. MR. R. DOERN: Well, Mr. Chairman, my concern here is the fact that, I think, the government is attempting to enlarge this program, expand this program. I'm sure the money is appreciated by the recipients, but I also think that very bad precedents are being set.

The Minister gives one version of what happened a couple of years ago, but the information I have is that in the heat of the French language de bates of a couple of years ago, all the ethnic organizations were called down for a reception and given the message that if they got their house in order and their grants in order and they talked nice to the Minister and slowly to the Minister, then they might be eligible, too, tor $50,000 grants. 1 don't regard this as a great innovation on the part of the government expanding this program, dangling money in front of ethnic groups, providing funds where in many instances organizations came to this province, came this country, built up organizations, built or renovated facilitie s and have been doing very nicely ever since.

Now, the whole procedure has changed and the Minister is going around like Santa Claus, offering money to everybody In sight, dangling cheques before them, and trying to build up a structure for the purposes of re-election. There are many organizations In Manitoba who, in effect, are successful and prosperous without government support; who have thousands of members; who don't go running to the Federal Government and the Provincial Government every 15 minutes, and aren't encour aged to do so. The example that we're now getting I think is not a good example. Self-sufficienc y is no longer prized as a value.

The government wants to keep being the funder of these organizations and is, I think, implicitly expecting something in return. I don't see this as an area that one can trumpet. So I simply say that the Minister gives one version about an ongoing program; he's clearly expanding the program; he's clearly I think trying to win friends and influence people. I do not believe that this is the right approach. We've seen too much of this. We've seen too much of this at the federal level.

We've seen the Franco-Manitoban Society , which Is the worst example of somebody who is an arm of the Federal Government, getting federal funding, capital funding, operating funding, laundry money, getting legal money, all kinds of extra goodies. I just hope that this Minister doesn't move further in this particular direction. I think he can offer some support, but I think when he's dangling $50,000 cheques around and building up his program, then I think it's quite obvious what he's attempting to do. HON. E. KOSTYRA: it's really unfortunate that the member does such damage to the facts and to the truth.

At no time have I ever made any suggestion to any individual or any organization that they would get gr ants on the basis of prov iding support to this government, to a specific issue, to a specific situation. That is totally fabrication of the imagination of the memb er. This program has been in existence, as I said, since 1973. The maximum amounts of money have increased to a small extent, from $50,000 in 1973 to $175,000 today. I would also add, to help the member with his memor y, the grant was in place and was handled by the Cabinet that he was a member of for awhile.

I guess he should have had the same kind of condemnation of that kind of program at that time as he does now, since he's joined the opposite side of the Assemb ly. This program is providing support to community organizations. At least two-thirds of the support has to be raised by the organizations themselves. it is in capital areas to help them enhance community facilities. I think it's a good program. it requires a great deal of community involvement, community fund raising, and community effort. I certainly commend the organizations that have been involved, but at no time, Mr.

Chairman, has there been any suggestion, to any, that this program is being provided to them on the basis of some support. If the member would like to make that allegation, I would 2228

Thursday, 23 May, 1985 suggest that he provide some proof, and I'd also suggest to him that he could not find any proof anywhere of that. lt's merely some figment of his rather creative imagination. MR. A. DOERN: Well, Mr. Chairman, we know that not all things are written down. We all know about nudging and winking and we all know the - (Interjection) - messages that . . . HON. E. KOSTYRA: Speak for yourself. MR. A. DOERN: . . . are sometimes contained in actions. We also know that when we ask for information and correspondence, that some time s that isn't fort hcoming.

I've asked for information about commun ications between this government and a number of organizations. Some 15, 16 months ago, that information is still not forthcom ing. I simply note, Mr.

Chairman, by way of interest, and when it comes to multi cultural grants, that there were at least I think 10 or 12 or more organizations who saw fit to come forward in the hour of need to support the government during the language hearings. lt wouldn't take much to draw the conclusion that some people felt it was necessary, or may have been encouraged directly or indirectly, to come out and support the government. lt's a case of ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Point of order being raised. The Min ister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: . . . irrelevant to that.

These people are not here to use the time of the Committee to imply motives to people that are not here to defend themselves is out of order and clearly should not be continued at this time. This is to look at the Estimates of the Department, not to imply or to fight the French legislation all over again. MR. CHAIRMAN: The last meeting . MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, on the point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: On the point of order, the Chair is making an observati on. MR. R. DOERN: I'd like to make a point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Chair is making an observation. MR. A. DOERN: Fine. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Last meeting when the member was not present here, I made a comment that nobody should speak ad hominem against somebody who is not present. I was trying to defend him. The Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: You were talking about an MLA and the Minister is talking about organizations. Well, there's hundr eds of organizations. We're not going to invite everybody in Manitoba to come here in the hope that they might get a mention favourable or unfavourable. I'm talking about the Minister. He's here and I'm talking about the government and they're here and you're the Minister of Lotteries.

I'm simply saying - (Interjection) HON. E. KOSTYRA: You still wish you were Minister of Culture, Doern. MR. R. DOERN: Well, that's right. I forgot you were fired. So, Mr. Chairman, the point is that I have made this observation. I'm talking to the Minister about his actions and I'm just simply making the observation that whether it's written or not and whether there is written evidence or not, I'm simply saying that this Minister in my judgm ent is creating the impression by his actions that it would be appreciated financially, or if finances are given, that maybe things aren't expected.

Let's say that when large grants are given, then there is a message there and I say that he has given a message clearly to the multicultural community. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, he's doing the same thing. Now he's implying motiv es to the Minister, points that he can't prove at all and that should not be allowed in this Hous e. MR. CHAIRMAN: lt is an abuse of privilege to impute motive to any member of the Cham ber. MR. R. DOERN: I wish the Minister of Health would stop imputing motives to me. HON. L. DESJARDINS: lt's very clear what you're trying to do. MR. R.

DOERN: Don't impute motives. Mr. Chairman, I have made my point to the Minister that I think that his actions are transparent. HON. E. KOSTYRA: I will repeat my statements again. There has never been anything written verbally, no winks, nudge, nudge, whatever that means. I don't deal with people that way, but I presume the member opposite must if he makes reference to it. There's not been any suggestion to any organization that their funding is dependent on some kind of support to this government on any policy or generally.

In fact, if the member would do a bit of research, he will note that some of the organizations he makes mention of did receive support, others probably didn't. There's also some organizations that came . . . for that committee he makes reference to that were in opposition to the government's plans that also received funding; so I think the member is basing his unfortunate allegations on nothing related anywhere to the facts.

If the member wants to talk about transparency, I would like to send him, when I get a chance, a copy of one of his leaflets where he suggested, If he was elected leader of this party in government that he would do a lot more to assist mul ticultural organizations and ethnocultu ral organizations in the province. Now, when the government that he once was a part of for a fleeting moment does do that, he attacks it. I think that is more transparent than anything I've ever done, Mr. Chairman. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, let's just say that if that fortunate event had occurred, we wouldn't have 2229

Thureday, 23 May, 1885 the kind of method of operation of the present Minister and we wouldn't have had the French language fiasco which he and his government brought to this province. HON. E. KOSTYRA: lt's his last hurrah, Larry. Let him have it. MR. CHAIRMAN: This is a debate about Capital Related Expenditures. 5.(a)-pa ss; 5.(b)- pass. Reso lution No. 46: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty, a sum not exceeding $513,600 for Culture, Heritage and Recre ation, Expenditures Related to Capital for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1986-p ass. Mr. Minister. HON. E.

KOSTYRA: In order to facilitate the work of this committee, we've had some ·discussion with members and we've proposed that Item 4. be held over to the next sitting of the committee; and if we could revert , by leave, temporarily to Minister's Salary, we could then deal with Lotteries. MR. CHAIRMAN: There is going to be Private Mem bers' Hour, I unde rstand. Is it the wish of committee members that we do this? Leave is granted. We shall go to Item No. 1.(a), which is the Minister's Salary and discuss Lotteries. Mr. Minister. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you.

As members are aware, the system with Lotteries at present is that there Is a Foundation in place but there has been agreement to have discussion on the operat ions of the Foundation under my salary and I'd just like to first introduce Mr. Garth Man ness who is with me, who is the General Manager of the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation and I'd Just like to make a few brief opening remarks. On October 14th,'83, the Honour able Larry Desjardins, the then Minister, announced a new program for Lotteries which was aimed at meeting the following goals: 1.

To provide public protection and fair play to lotteries in Manitoba; 2. To maximize the return from lotteries through efficient operation of games; and 3. To provide a fair distribution of funds from lottery profits to charitable organizations. After one year of opera tion, the program has been a success. Through Increased methods of accountability, equalization of prize payouts and upgraded secu rity staffing within the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation, the public is beginning to feel the positive results of the changes.

Rule changes In bingos and break-opens designed In ensuring fairness, accountability and fairer distribution of proceeds were met with a degree of dissatisfaction by those groups which felt they would stand to lose something in the changes. Through some re gulation, modification and group consultation, most groups now see that fairer rules and a fairer distribution of proceeds are fair for the public over all, even if some groups do not hold the preferred position they once did.

The Foundation, at the dir ection of the government, became directly involved in the operation of bingos and casinos and in the distribution of lottery tickets and break-open tickets. These programs have been financially an overw helming success. Profits to charities increased by $14 million or 86 percent from 1983-1984, with overall operating expenses actually decreasing by over $500,000 or 8 percent. This has been done at a time when many of the individuals and groups who opposed the changes Initially, voiced strong opposition to the change and made some of the changes very difficult.

Future financial projections in these areas are equally as promising. The design of the um brella group system has itself proven to be a very unique and positive method of distributing the lottery proceeds to community groups. The eight umbrella groups, four festival groups and two departments of government which distribute lottery proceeds have all approached the task with vigour and are well on their way to developing fair and equitable criteria for the distribution of over $30 million generated through the program.

The system is having its first review to determine if the allocation of funds between umbrellas is fair and whether or not any other adjustment should be made. Over all, the changes have been very positive and the board of the Foundation Is always open to concerns from groups and is prepared to recommend changes in the system if it feels the intent of the Criminal Code and the objectives of the government re gaming would be better met. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for La Ver end rye. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Chairman, I haven't got any opening remarks.

I have some general que stions which I'd like to pose and then some more detailed ones later on. I wonder if, first of all, the Minister could tell us what is envisio ned with regard to the structure of the Manitoba Lotteries and Gaming Commission. We have had a fair number of changes this last year. We've had B.C. pull out of the Western Canada Lotteries Foundation; we've had the W.L. and D. which was marketing the tickets, now I assume being taken over by the Lotteries Commission.

Is it the government's intention to have the marketing of the tickets, the administration of the act and all forms of gaming, casinos, Nevadas, bingos, all come under this one organization? HON. E. KOSTYRA: That is what did take place over a year ago.

That was the changes that were put in place where all aspects of Lotteries and Gaming are the resp onsibility of the Manitoba Lottery Foundation and, through them, to the various organizations that are involved in the various aspects of Lotteries, Gaming, tickets in Manitoba; and the Foundation represents the government on the Board of Directors of the Western Canada Lotteries Foundation. MR. R. BANMAN: How many emp loyees are currently on staff? HON. E. KO� TYRA: The total staffing of the Lotteries Foundation is 93 positions. There's presently seven vacancies, se, there's 86 employees. 2230

Thursday, 23 May, 1985 Prior to all the changes that took place, the staffing was 70 employ ees. There was 12 with the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation; 27 that were with WLMD; 10 with the private bingo halls; 6 contract emp loyees regarding casinos; and 50 emp loyees with respect to break-open ticket distribution. So the pre-changes, total amount of people working in that area were 70. At the present time it's 93 positions or 86 people actually working. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr.

Chairman, now that we've all aspects of gaming under one commission, could the Minister tell us what the anticipated total gaming - this includes break-opens and everyt hing - is going to be this coming year? Obviously the commission will have done some estima tes and have some idea what's going to happen. And also could he tell us what amount of money then will be available to government and all the umbrella groups? In other words what would be the net revenues that will be available out of lotteries funds? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The estimates for the year ending March 1985 1s $174,222 ,000.00.

The estimate for 1985- 86 fiscal year Is $192,900,000.00. The net profit from that is estimated at $31 million. MR. R. BANMAN: Does that take Into consideration the operating costs of the Lotteries Commission? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The $31 million is after the operating costs of the foundation. MR. R. BANMAN: This is what the average person would refer to as disposable income? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Or profit, depending on how one MR. R. BANMAN: Could the Minister tell us what the Budget for the Lotteries Comm ission will be this year, the operation? HON. E. KOSTYRA: $6,125,000.00. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I made several observations during the Estimates dealing with the expend itur e of lotteries funds, and at tha t time suggested to the Minister that a different system would be implemented.

I would offer the Minister the suggestion that since we are now talking such large sums of money; we're talking about Manitobans spending on the average of $200 per capita, or almost let's say $600 to $800 per family annually now on lotteries, which is a tremendous amount of money and the province is going to derive some $31 million clear in lotteries re venue, which will be disbursed as the government sees fit; and I put a caveat on there knowing that there are certain commitments to sports federations and that, where the government doesn't have very much discretion because that is already in place and will continue; I wonder if there is a system that can be established so that the Legislature would be able to review this and see, in a more comprehensive way, where the funds are going and what direction we're taking?

We are act ually now establishing a Crown corporation - in essence this is what we've done - which is having a pretty dramatic effect, not only on rev enues but also on the lives of Manitobans, when you're looking at $200 per man, woman and child in Ma nitoba being spent on gaming in this province.

So I would suggest to the Minister that either a Legislative Committee or an ad hoc committee of members of the Legislature - and I would offer my services to the Minister - where we could sit down and try and work out a reporting system on an annual basis, which would provide the members of the Legislature with the Budget requirements and things like that, that we could sit down and deal with them in a pretty comprehens ive manner , because we're talking about awfully large sums of money.

When the previous Minister of Lotteries in the Schreyer admininistration started the Western Lotteries Foundation, I think that he never dreamed that we would see this kind of reve .;�ue. When I left as Minister in 1981, I think we were around $4.5 million, $5 million was coming in at that time, and now we've seen it mushroom in a matter of three years to about $31 million which is absolutely phenomenal.

So I'm concerned that a system be put in place where by, not only do we know what the groups that are so-called umbrella groups are doing within the system, but that there Is a pretty comprehensive report put together which ties In on one report all the activities and where all this $31 million go. That way, at least, we know what the sports people are spending, what the cultural people are spending, what the multicultural people are spending, what the arts council is spending, and where all the reve nues are going.

So I suggest to the Minister, and I haven't really got a concrete proposal to put forward to him, but I think there should be one dev eloped, which will allow the Legislature to deal with that. So I just throw that out for the Minister 's consideration. Ma ybe there's something we can all work out so that the reporting system on this huge amount of money Is brought forward to the Legislature and in a neat package. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Just a couple of points. I'd basically agree with the comments the member is making.

In fact the original plan with the changes Is to provide a comprehensive reporting mechanism, In terms of the activities of lotteries and gaming in the province, and to provide Information on the distribution of the profits from the lotteries.

I would anticipate that as we move down the road a bit further, as part of the Annual Report there will be comprehensive reporting on, not only the specific grants that are processed by the umbr ella groups, but also some reporting In terms of the criteria that each of the umbrella groups have in place in terms of providing the grants to the various organizations that are within their um brel la groups, so there will be greater public information, greater accounting to the Legislature in terms of their activities.

I also think it might be an opportune time in the near future, as that develops, also to have the foundation report in simila r fashion to what other Crown corporations report, that is, through a Committee of the House rather than being dealt with in Minister's 2231

Thursday, 23 May. 1985 Salary, Estimates Review, so that then it can be dealt with with the chairman of the board and the staff and the Min ister as are other corporations that have a somewhat autonomous existence. So that's what I would see and maybe we could look collectively at having that happen In the near future rather than having it dealt with In this fashion in the review of the Mi nister's Salary. I think that was, as I indic ated, part of the plans all along was to get into more and more reporting as we get experience and as the umbrella groups make their own reports.

Again, some of them have just been In existence for years. Some have started to distribute funds. Others have taken their time in order to get some money in the bank, so to speak, before they start having that money flow back to the community so that they wouldn't be spending money that they didn't have, which I think Is quite responsible In terms of some of the organizations that were Involved in the new um brella groupings. I think we've gone a long way to bring greater public accountability and security to the system.

At the same time, I recognize that as was plann ed initially is to take that further step to provide gr eater accountability to the Legislature and to the public. MR. R. BANMAN: There are two areas, it's sort of a two-pronged concern, one is to have a pretty good handle on where the monies are going, and the other, of course, is to deal with the more sort of philosophical end of it dealing with things such as number of casino days and length of casinos and that type of thing, as as well as the Introduction of any new games.

I'd ask the Minis ter Is the government contemplating entering the instant win game, the type which has been tried on an experimental basis several times? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, that is taking place right now through Western Canada Lottery Foundation. They have two games a year -what do they call it? -"Wonders of the World" -whatever that is -on right now which is one of those games and they've had Tic-Tac-Toe in the past. MR. R. BANMAN: Well, Mr. Chairman, again, coming back.

I think maybe the idea of the Lotteries Commi ssion reporting as a corporation to th e Legislature like the Hydro or Telephones during Public Utilities. Maybe this Is, I guess, if one really stretched it -it's almost like a public utility now because it's bringing in a massive amount of money, but that might be one route to take at which time not only the financial report could be looked at but then, of course, the other area is explored with regard to the expansion of the gaming and lotteries operations in the province.

I wonder if the Minis ter could provide the opposition, if he can't do that today, with the operating budget of the Lotteries Commis sion for the coming year which would show the - he gave me the figure of what it would cost -breakdown of the buildings and the cost of running the buildings and all the different costs that are involved in it. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, we can provide th at information. MR. R. BANMAN: A couple of direct questions. We now run 90 days of casinos a year.

I've asked the Minis ter some questions in the House with regard to expansion and he indi cated at that time that he was not contemplating any. What do the individuals that are hired to run the casinos do when they're not working some of those 90 days? Secondly, on the statement of revenues, are the operations of those casino emp loyees, those full time casino employees, deducted from the receipts at the casino when the Minis ter announces that a casino made $250,000.00? Is that after expenses are taken or before? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: I'll answer the first question and I missed part of your second or third questions. There are eight staff that are full-time with regard to casino operations. They work, of course, the 90 days that there are casinos In the City of Winnip eg. The member is also aware that there are 11 0 days of casinos outside of the City of Winnipeg and the staff are Involved in assisting the operation of those. They are also involved In the other period in training and other activities related to the running of those casinos. If the member could repeat his second question or third question, I'll respond to lt. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for La Verendrye. One question at a time. MR. R. BANMAN: The Min ister has, from time to time, annou nced the amount of money that a casino has made. Those figures, do they Include the cost of operating those casinos, or are those . . . HON. E. KOSTYRA: He still wants to be a Min ister. Those figures are net; that is the actual profit that is derived to the charity that is working that particular casino. The profits for all of the casinos that have been run since the foundation has formally taken over have all shown increased profit.

In fact, the latest ones have significant increase in profit to the charities. MR. R. BANMAN: I guess one of the reasons -and I would urge the Min ister to adopt the old approach -I would imagine they're showing some Increase is that he's extended the hours. As I have mentioned earlier, I don't think we should be starting at 11 :00 a.m. In the morning or 11 :30. I would still urge the Min ister to reduce those hours to starting some time later on in the afternoon, rather than starting early, but we've been through that argument. lt would still be my contention that we should reduce the hours.

The other question that I would have now Is with regard to the hiring of individuals for the Manitoba Lotteries Commission. Is that done through the Civil Service Commission? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes. MR. R. BANMAN: Could the Minis ter tell me with the umb rella groups, are they given a certain sum of money negotiated at the beginning of the year, or are they given percentages of revenue? HON. E. ICOSTYRA: There Is agreement on the percentage�. that each of the umb rella groups get and/ 2232

Thurlldey, 23 May. 1985 or agreement on specific amount of casino days and/ or percentage or specific amount of bingo days in the three foundation operated bingo halls. MR. R. BANMAN: I guess the ones that I would be the most concerned about are the percentages of what we've learned to call the umbrella groups. Are they all working on percentages? If so, could you tell me what kind of percentage they're working on right now? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I'll table a copy of the actual breakdown because it'll take five minu tes for me to read it into the record. MR. R.

BANMAN: I guess one of the concerns that I have, and I think the previous Mi nister had, and I hope that this Minis ter has, would show some concern we have with this tremendous increase in funds. lt becomes very difficult to tie in a group, either on a percentage basis or -and luckily we've avoided the pitfalls and taken some advice from our sister provinces and have not earmarked a specific game for a specific charity.

Because what happens is that we've seen now this tremendous growth in the last three years, that if we strictly adhere to percentages or award a specific game to a specific group, suddenly they're endowed with riches beyond their wildest imagination. Then, of course, once that happens it's pretty hard to -even though you realize it and they realize it -lt's pretty hard to pull back and say, I think you'r e getting too much this year because we all know this, that once you give somebody a certain amount they become dependent on that and it becomes very difficult to pull back.

So I'm wondering, with regard to the percentages that the Mini ster has just given me here, whether or not he is in the position to tell us whether he will be reviewing them annually or are we into sort of a WLMD thing, where the percentages were tied in and we were virtually locked in, with the exception that we did control to a certain extent the amount of money that went through the WLMO via the sales? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Jus t one comment on the comments then I'll be more specific to the question.

One of the reasons that there has been the significant amount of money available for the organizations has been not only the growth in overall but the fact that the actual costs associated with the running of the various aspects of gaming has decreased. That is the amount of mone y that went either to dir ect admi nistration or to the private organizations, private companies tha t were in the field has now been maximi zed for the charities. I think that point has to be noted.

In terms of the arrangements with the various umbrella groups, there is formal agreements existing with them that are all due to expire, to be renegotiated on April 1st of 1986. lt was stated to them that there would be a review process, after they had the opportunity of running them for a year or two years, to see if there was any need in terms of changes on the details of the agreement and/or the portions that were given to each of the um brella organizations. The board has commenc ed that review through a subcomm ittee and has retained Mr.

AI Mil ler, a former Deputy Minis ter of Fitness, Recreation and Sport, who is going to conduct that review on behalf of the foundation and will be liaising with the umbrella groups and coming up with some recommendations for the foundation and thereto the government, in terms of any adjustments in the proportions that are allotted to each of the umbrella groups, or whether or not there should be any other changes with respect to the set up. MR. R. BANMAN: Two years ago, I think it's two years ago, we passed

an act of the Legislature which changed the legislation governing lotteries and the disbursement of funds. lt used to be that they had to be disbur sed to sports and cultural groups and it was then that there was a provision which all owed the government to transfer to general revenues. Have any funds been transferred to general revenues and is it the government's intention to do that in the near future? HON. E. KOS TYRA: No to the first question, and no to the second question, at this point. MR. R. BANMAN: A specific question. The food services at the bingos. Was that tendered out? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Yes, they were. There were four bids received and one was the successful contract. MR. R. BANMAN: What is expected to be the effect of British Columbia moving out of the Western Lotteries Foundation? HON. E. KOSTYRA: There's been a number of impacts.

One is that there was some reduction of staff that I reported to the House some time ago. lt's not expected to affect sales at all, sales will be at the same or incr eased levels within the three remaining provinces. lt will affect the bottom line somewhat because there are some fixed costs with regard to the operating of the Western Canada Lottery scheme, that even though they did reduce some of the operating costs, there is still some fixed costs that cannot be decreased. So it's expected there will be some erosion of the revenue. MR. R.

BANMAN: Is there any fact to the rumour that Alberta is also thinking of going on their own? HON. E. KOSTYRA: No, not according to the present Mini ster in Alberta. MR. R. BANMAN: What has the effect been of B.C.'s pulling out of the Western Lotteries Foundation as far as prize money is concerned? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The only game that's been directly affected is the Western Express, the percentages remain the same but obviously the prize level has been reduced by the reduced sales, because of the one less province in. We don't have any specific.

I'm told that B.C. sold half the tickets, so there's been that kind of impact. MR. R. BANMAN: In light of the fact that the games have changed to almost the 6/49 format, very successful 2233

Thuradar. 23 liar. 1885 with regard to the use of computers, what is the projection with regard to the tickets like the Western Express Provincial? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The projections are that they still will continue to have a great deal of interest for a number of consumers, but they won't have the kind of growth that is being seen in the area like 6/49. Their growth is a bit more flat. · MR. R. BANMAN: The kiosks which are being operated in the large shopping centres. I think the government was trying to negotiate with the shopping centres so that they had the head lease. What has finally happened there?

In other words, are the shopping malls leasing out the space themselves to someone who is selling tickets or having a 6/49 machine? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The shopping centres lease the space. There is an agreement that if the retailers lose their licence they will also be removed from the mall, that's part of the lease arrangement, the agreement with the shopping centres. MR. R. BANMAN: There used to be a waiting list for 6/49 machines. Is there still a waiting list? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, there is still a waiting list. I'm informed the waiting list is about 40.

There is going to be an addition of machines over the next few months that will meet some, if not all, of that waiting list. MR. R. BANMAN: The Min ister indicated earlier that the Lotteries Commission now has 93 employees. What is he projecting? Is he projecting that that level will remain constant now or has he included in his budget for some expansion in the next year? HON. E. KOSTYRA: It'll be basically the same; if there is any increase it will be in the small numbers like one or two or three, but the budget for the next year is on the basis of 93 positions. MR. R.

BANMAN: One of the difficulties that some of the rural bingos have been facing is with some of the changes especially dealing with the break-opens. Some of them have been complaining that their profits have dropped. Has the commission done any monitoring with regard to what the effect is with regard to not the bingo halls here in Winnipeg, but to the small Legion or the small community club bingos throughout the province? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Yes, the foundation is constantly in touch and working with the smaller bingos - the non foundation bingos operations, let me put it that way whether they're in the city or in the rural areas. The experience is that many of them are doing much better under the new arrangements in terms of the operation of bingos. We've had correspondence from bingos to that effect. The area where there has been some levelling off, indeed, decrease has been in the sale of break-open tickets.

That is being mon itored to look at the reasons behind it, some of which, if one looks over the la st few years there was starting to come a downward trend in the area of break-open tickets.

In terms of the bingo operations, there is becoming much more supp ort for the changes and it's being viewed as positive not only In terms of the operation of the smaller bingos, the actual operations for the patrons, but also the - in terms of accountability if I could just give you one Indication of that - there was a letter that we rec8ived from the Beausejour Centennial Social Club that says in part: "I was telling him what a difference the paper bingo made to operation. Last year we were using card bingo and we could not meet our own expenses on the bingo side.

The only income we were getting was from the break-open tickets. In January of 1985 we decided to change to the paper bingo as suggested by the Lotteries Foundation. They say they did have some resistance for a few weeks but since our club was not the only one that switched to paper, our players came back. We are paying bigger prize money and also enjoying a better return. Thanks to the Lotteries Foundation for the assistance offered to small group bingos like ours, we average a profit of approximately $225 after expenses.

Our bingo is a night out for many senior citizens, some win, some lose, but all in all, we have a good time." That Is just one - we have received a number of comments from small bingos. There are a couple of the staff on the operation of the foundation who work as consultants to smaller bingo operators to help them with their operations, and if any bin gos are experiencing difficulty they are encou raged to use the consulta tive staff of the foundation who can help them with their operation and, hopefully, maximize their income. MR. R.

BANMAN: The government has set up an equali zation fund which represents 10 percent of the net proceeds. Can the Minis ter tell me what's In that fund? The annual report says that that fund is going to be used at the sole discretion of the government. First of all, can you tell me what's in there right now? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: I was looking for another comment that I wanted the member to be aware of and that was regarding Dauphin bingos, dealing with the Dauphin Kings, a hockey club that I'm sure the member is aware of where they are saying that they find the province's new regulations governing their activities are workable, if not a benefit to fund raising efforts. They say there's more book work involved In keeping track of the proceeds, but they think it's a good system because it j:rovides for greater accountabili ty. The approximate balance in the equalization fund at the moment is about $3 million. MR. R.

BANMAN: How much money is in the special reserve account? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The account balance is 2.9; the actual balance is 1.9. Money was transferred from that account for capital purposes of the foundation, dealing with the purchase and renovation of a building for their use. The money is being paid back; it was, in essence, a loan from the account and is being paid back on a five-year bas1s by the foundation. MR. R. BANMAN: $3 million in an equalization fund which is building at 10 percent, and we've got a special 2234

Thundey, 23 llaJ, 1985 reserve now where we're going to have close to $3 million; the Minister has 6.3 million in Cultural Affairs at his discretion. These are all - correct me if I'm wrong - accounts that will be run by the government and funds will be paid out by Order-i n-Council. Is that correct? HON. E. KOSTYAA: That would be the proced ure if there were decisions taken with respect to those funds. There haven't been any decisions taken to date in terms of those funds. MA. A. BANMAN: I guess, Mr. Chairman, it just sort of reinforces my earlier statement. We're putting money all over the place.

We 've got 3 million in special reserve; we've got 3 million in an equalization fund; we've got 6.3 million in Cultural Affairs - is there any other discretionary money in accounts somewhere? MA. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJAADINS: My honourable friend talks about the money that is under Cultural Affairs and I guess you could also add in the Department of Health for Sports. Well, it's the same thing. There's money that comes to Sports and there's money that goes to Cultural Affairs from the Lotteries.

And I think that unfortunately at times some of these groups have been short-changed because in difficult times it's always been said, well, charge it to Lotteries . So it is unde rstood and I'l l speak only of my Department of Health through Sports. I count on that for my Estimates. lt is the way it is. lt is the flexibility that we have in those programs. We've tried to conduct those that are absolutely necessary, through the Estimates, and then the others fluctuate.

My honourable friend knows that because he's transferred revenue to the Sports Federation but also a respon sibility that was that of the government before. Now the equalization . . . one of the reasons for that was because it was somet hing new. lt was so difficult to see if it was fair, but event ually I guess the government could make a reso lution and a program or something and I would imagine that the Minister would announce that, if that is the case, but that wasn't necessary.

The member seemed to think that there's mone y all over the place. lt think that was necessary at this time because it is new and it was announced and it will be reviewed like everyt hing else to see what will happen. There won't be the need of all this money later on. HON. E. KOS TYAA: Just in response, I thank both members for their comments. In response to the question, there is no other funding source in Lotteries, in terms of the Provincial Govern ment. outside of the two that we've just talked about and the transfers that go to the Department of Cultur e, Heritage and Recreation and Fitness and Sport. MA.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for La Veren drye. MA. A. BANMAN: How much more will Cultur al Affairs, which receives 33.5 percent of total revenue and the Department of Health, the Sports Directorate, which receives 12.2 - what kind of an increase are they expecting this year over last? HON. E. KOSTYAA: The portion that's estima ted to go to the department, or available to the Department of Culture, Heritage and Recre ation would be about $8.4 million and the Department of Health would be just over $3 million, which are, I think, a little bit higher than what was available for this current year end. MA. A.

BANMAN: During the Estimates, the Minister in Cultural Affairs gave us a figure of $6.3 million. Is that'84? HON. E. KOSTYAA: No, that's what we are spending or planning to spend this year. We are not spending all the money that's made available. I don't know if the member will recall, the money is held in trust and it doesn't necess arily all have to be spent.

In fact, it would be my intention, in terms of the Department of Culture, to ensure that there's some money left in the trust account because in the lean years, in 1980-81 into'82- 83, there was a lowering of money available which meant that the programs had built up and the actual revenue was less than the programs, which then you get into the position of having to cut back; so our intention is to try to build up some reserve in the departmental account without spending everyt hing that's available in case they drop down considerably , because no one can project the future, if there will indeed be growth or if it will level off or if there may be a reduction in monie s being spent on lotteries in the future.

MA. CHAIRMAN: The hour being 4:30 p.m., we are interrupting the proceedings of this comm ittee for Private Members' Hour. The members of the committee shall return at approximately 8:00 p.m. SUPPLY - AGRIC ULTURE MA. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, D. Scott: Committee, come to order. The Member for Turtle Mountain. MA. B. RANSOM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll put these questions to the Minister now because with the federal Budget coming up shortly, I am going to have to leave the Estima tes, even though the Minister's staff are not l:lere.

I have some questions about land that was put up for sale by MACC, for lease, and I would like to put on the record initially that, I, personally had bid on a piece of land that MACC had put up for sale. I'm not especial ly Inte rested in information about that particular piece of land, but about the way that they've been handled generally. I would like to know how many pieces of land were put up for sale; how many of them were sold; what the prices were of those that were sold.

Another piece of information that would be usefu l, but I would understand why the Minister might not make this available attached to a particular piece of land, and that would be, what were the bids, or at least the highe st bid that wasn't accepted. I don't care whether it's attached to a piece of land, but I would like to know, for a representative number at least, what the bids were that w e re turned down, the reason being because the government then went to a five-year lease program on some land, perhaps all of it. 2235

Thursday, 23 May, 1985 So another question would be, how many pieces of land that were not sold were then put up for five-year lease? I would like to know what the terms of the leases are for those pieces of land that were subsequently leased. Are they crop share, are they cash rent and so on. But I'm particularly interested in knowing how the lease returns that MACC is going to get from some of these pieces of land, stack up against the highest bids that they had for the sale of that land.

Because this is relevant, not only to the return for MACC but to the value of farm land out there generally and what is going to happen if the banks have to go ahead and put land on to the market. MACC has evidently found that they could not get what they thought was a fair price for a goodly number of parcels of land and chose to hold on to it and rent it.

I first of all want to know whether that rent is really a better return than it would have been to sell, and I'm interested in knowing what position the banks will find themselves in, and of course the position that the farmers will consequently find themselves in if banks are forced to begin to sell land and reduce the price of land, because I know that's part of the reason why MACC didn't wish to dispose of some of those pieces of land, because they didn't want to contribute to reducing the price of land either.

So if the Minister could indicate to me whether he can make that sort of information available, or whether there's some of it he doesn't want to make available. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRM AN: The Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Yes, Mr. Chairman, we'll attempt to have staff get the information specifically on as many of the questions as we can provide. I just want to raise one matter in reply to the honourable member dealing with the banks having to put land on the market. Mr.

Chairman, I'm advised that we have not had one application from the financial institutions to the Farmlands Board to deal with the question of land and deferment in terms of application for time extension. The member should be aware that in the Province of Saskatchewan, under The Farmlands Act, the time period is two years, not three years as it is in this province, and there doesn't seem to be any difficulty for the financial institutions in that province in terms of dealing with the legislation.

But up to this point, when I answer the questions, the mem ber posed those questions to me a number of days ago, I went back and checked with the Farmlands Board just to find out specifically what the situation was and we did not have one application to us on extensions or process from the institutions and certainly when appl ications come in they will be viewed. The honourable member asked a number of questions and we'll try and get the details put together for him, possibly this afternoon. Staff will work on the questions that he's raised. I'll get them as quickly as I can. MR. B.

RANSOM: I wonder if I could just repeat to the Min ister then, and perhaps get the specific answer from him. Can he provide to me a value, the appraised value for the parcel of land, the hig hest bid, and what the rental arrangement now is for the five years? I don't need to know - I don't want to know - what piece of land that is. I don't need it identified by

section and township, etc., but just Parcel A, the government's appraised value, what the hig hest tender that they had for it was, and what the rental arrangements are that they have entered into. Does the Minister see any problem in providing that information? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr . Chairman, we'll certainly endeavour to get that information for the honourable member. The member should be advised that they're two separate processes.

When the bids that came in did not come in at above or at least the appraised value to the corporation, then the land was taken off the market and tendered and released for the five-year period depending on the condition of the lease. We'll endeavour to get that Information for him. MR. B. RANSOM: Well, that's exactly what I understood it to be, that there were pieces of land put up for sale. There were tenders. Some of the tenders were not high enough. They apparently didn't meet the appraised value and they were subsequently leased. I'm only interested in those that are leased for five years.

If some are leased for one year, I don't have any Interest In that. Other of my colleagues may. lt's just a question of can the Min ister provide that and if he has any difficulty with the piece of land that I bid on, I don't care if he leaves that one out. That's of no consequence. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, those that were tendered for lease are all five-year leases, so we'll endeavour to put all tha t in . . . - (I nterjection) - Pardon me. Tenders for lease.

Those that were tendered for sale and were not sold were subsequently tendered for five years or there were some other leases as the member points out that were leased for one year, short term and may be tendered again this fall. That's an ongoing process. MR. DEPUTY CHA IRMAN: The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Along the same vein, Mr. Chairman. I will see the kind of information that the Minister provides and we may want a little broader picture.

I ask him specifically, and I had two calls in particular , dealing with people who have put In lease applications for some of this land and in both cases initially were unsuccessful in obtaining the property. Upon request of the corporation, they asked if they could, in fact, see the other tenders or to substantiate that they were, in fact, not eligible because they weren't the hig hest. Were the highest tenders in all cases accepted on those five-year leases? HON. B. URUSKI: The information, Mr.

Chairman, I think there is one or two instances where the highe st tender was not accepted on the leases, but we'll get the information for the honourable member and the background. MR. J. DOWNEY: Why would that be the case? Why would it be if it is public property and offered for lease for hig hest tender and then the highe st tender not 2236

Thureday, 23 May, 1115 accepted? I think it's of public interest probably to accept the highe st tender, but I would like to know as to why. As well, will the Minis ter provide for us in the information that he's going to be assembling, the bids that are availa ble or that were presented to the corporation for these lease properties? The individuals who had questions asked if they could get it. They could n't.

I know prior years in questioning in Estimates where the member who is now the Minister who was opposition and went to many hours, he and the Member for Lac du Bonnet, to find out some specific information which they accomplished in getting. I'm asking the Minister today why he would have any trouble in providing that information when he was so adamant In opposition about getting it? I ask him specifically about why the hig hest tenders were not accepted in the lease cases? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I'm reading the awarding the policies of the . . . and dealing with leases.

I'll read it into the record. lt's generally intended that our leases be awarded to the highe st bidd er, however, leases have been awarded to a lower bidder on an exception basis due to one of two circumstances (

a) where, in the opinion of MACC management that the hig hest bidder does not have the ability and/or the desire to make the lease payments. Out of the 65 parcels tendered for lease this spring, three tenders were declined on this basis. This has been MACC's practice since 1980. That's one of the reasons in terms of not accepting. Mr.

Chairman, there is a policy that was set by the board where a former owner of land submits a tender to lease back his/her land base, that the details of his/ her tender and situation be submi tted to the board together with the details of all prospective lessees . lt was felt that former owners should receive consideration since the lease may, in some circumstances, permit the person to re-enter agriculture.

Although not spelled out in the resolution, favourable consideration would be given based on the following criteria; the reasons for the previous failure of the farm; access to adequate equipment and operating capital; the feasibility of the proposed farm plan and; the management capabilities of the individual. That was the two bases on which the corporation would have made an exception to allowing tenders for leases of land other than the hig hest bidder. Those are the only two.

And out of 65 that were tendered, three were declined on the basis that did not have - just to be clear, there were actually five exceptions made out of the 60. Dealing with former owners, one individual was the hig hest tender and submitted a feasible plan of operation. One ind ividual submitted the hig hest tender but was declined the lease based on original reasons for default, as significant portions of MACC's original security was sold without MACC's knowledge and the proceeds of the sale were not forwarded to MACC. So even though he was the hig hest tender, they did not accept him as a bidder.

The third one, one individual was awarded a lease on part of the property he previously owned. They didn't allow the entire property to be leased back. This individual's tender was not the hig hest but was within - well I'll be exact - was only $644 a year lower than the hig hest tender and he had a feasible plan of operation, but did not receive the entire land base that he had previously. The balance of the land previously owned was leased to another ind ividual as his tender was sign ificantly higher and he received the award on that basis. MR. J.

DOWNEY: In the awarding of the tenders that were not the highest, were they the next highe st bidder to those individuals that were at the top of the bid? HON. B. URUSKI: I'm advised that management believes they were the second highe st bidders, but I don't have the information. I am not privy to the tenders. If the member wants us to double-check, we will certainly check, but in the recollection of our general manager, they were. MR. J. DOWNEY: I appreciate that, Mr. Chairman.

I will check a little fur!her with the individuals who wanted the information, so that I can assure them that they were treated fairly, and when we receive the information which the Minis ter has committed to us on the leases, then we will proceed to do so. I think, however, it would be in his best interests, as Min ister, to check into it, to make sure for his own benefit, because he's given the opportunity now to disclose If, in fact, the next in line was not. I have no difficulty with maintaining a person on a farm if they've lost the land and there's a negotiated settlement.

I think that's an acceptable practice. But I do think, when it is dealing with other individuals and the highe st tender is not acceptable because of former business practices and carrying on with MACC which is not acceptable, then the next bidder in line, the next tender in line should be the one who Is accepted. That's really the question in those cases - was lt in fact the next bidd er, the next highest tender accepted? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I want to confirm for the honourable member that that, in fact, would be the case with one exception.

Unless the second in line could be in the same circumstances as the first in line in terms of tender and the difficulty that the corporation and the asset, that would be the only - but having two in a row - but that is a "possibility. lt could occur. MR. J. DOWNEY: That's the concern that I have because there could be a judgment call by the credit corporation which may, in fact, not treat fairly those people who bid the property.

That's really what I'm trying to get at to make sure that each and every person who bid on property for the five-year leases was not, in fact, disallo wed by the system the opportunity to lease property because of a judgment call that in their judgment, they could not for some reason, meet the requirements of MACC, and in fact were qualified.

I will be asking questions further on this and the Minis ter, I would hope, in his information that he provides for us, will give us the specific details on those ones, so that in fact we can· make a determination as to whether the corporation has acted fairly in the allocation of the leases. Another question, dealing with the sale of land - but before I get dealing with the sale of the land, I would 2237

Thursday , 23 May, 1985 like to know how many farm foreclosures the Manitoba Agricultural Corporation has processed In the last four years, since this Minister has taken office? Seeing as we've had a series of tremendous increases in farm bankruptcies in Manitoba, I would like to know what the record of the Manitoba Ag ricultural Cred it Corporation is on farm foreclosures. HON. B. URUSKI: We'll try and have the information for the honourable member on that one parcel where there was a deviation because of past practices with the corporation.

I'll try and get the details, in terms of confirming whether the second highest bidder did receive the award on that one parcel. The other two parcels. the honourable member indicated he had no difficulty with because they were in fact the previous farmers. If my lJnderstanding is different from the honourable member, I wish he would tell me, because I just want to make sure I understand him.

Those two parcels where we awarded it or portions of the land base to former farmers on a negotiated basis, that was a deviation; but the one where we did not award Is the one that I want to confirm for him that In fact the second highe st bidder to the one that was not acceptable to the mana gement of the corporation did occur and we 'll try and get that information for him this afternoon. On foreclosures, Mr. Chairman, in the four years that MACC • three foreclosures corporat ion-initiated : MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, to clear up the lease question as far as I'm concerned - if the Minister provides the Information that he indicated to the Member for Turtle Mountain, in that information that he's providing he wants the lease, the appraised value of MACC, the lease re turn. I would think it would be quite easy for the corporation to put In th

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-4-54a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 4th hansardpdf 54a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	40908d4d558508a315416aa38bb1a9c437ee35a8

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