Volume XLI Thursday Province of Newfoundland FORTY -FIRST GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND First Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard) Speaker: Honourable Thomas Lush [Preliminary Transcript l Number 49 7 December 1989

The House met at 2:00 p.m . MR. SPEAKER (Lush): Order, please! On behalf of hon. Members I t~.Jould like to tJ.Jelcome to the Speaker's gallery today the han. Gilbt~l~t Parent, Member of Parliament for Weiland -St. Catharines - Thorold. I would also like to welcome to the pubJ.ic galJ.eries seventy Level 11 students from O'Donnell High School, Mount Pearl, accompanied by their teachers, Mr.·sutton, Mr . Sauve and Mr. Mooney. Also we would like to welcome a group of thirty-three students from QueE!n Elizabeth High School, in Foxtrap, accompanied by their teachers, Mr·. Lloyd Johnson, Mr.

Heber Best and student teacher, Margaret Walsh. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Oral Questions MR. MATTHEWS : Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Member for Grand Bank . MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . My question is for the Minister of Fisheries (Mr·. Car·ter). I am wondering if the Minister could inform the House whether he or any of his officials have met tAlil:h National Sea Products pertaining to a plant closure in the Province by National Sea? MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Minister of Fisheries. Ll DE!Cember 7, 1989 Vol XLI MR. W. CARTER: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

Yesterday, between four o'clock and six o 1 clock, l:he Pr1'Hnoie1" and I and our officials met with officials of the two offshore companies FPI and NSP, at which time we discussed possible plant closures in the Province. In the case of FPI ther·t~ is nothing definite yet as to exactly what plants they are going to close, it will depend largerly, I guess, on the total allowable catch and the allocation. In the case of National Sea Products l:.he discussion was more definife.

Under certain circumstances we know that thel"e w:i.ll b~:· one p1cult: closed in l:he Pl"OVince, and I expect there wil1 be an announcement rnade by t.hat company som~time in the near future to that effect. MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Member for Grand Bank . MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, I would l:i.ke to thank the Minister For· his anstAJer. Of course, tJ.Je understand, as lAH~ll, that definite plans cannot be made by Fishery Product~ Interna tional until the total allowable cat .ch is set fol" 1990. Havinq s;ri.d that., tAle all know that l:hE! rnaxJ.rnurn l:.he TAC will be in 1990 is 190,000 metric tons.

We are hop'i.ng that it is go:lng l:.o I:H:! 190,000, and certainly would hopE! l.hal:. it. tAd.ll not. be any less. In light of obviously admitting to the House today that he ha s knowledge of what National Sea plant will be closing in thE• Pr·ovinCE!, tJ.Ji .ll thE! Ministel" not exhHld the court:E!SY of informing the Hou se, · and consequently the employ ees of National Sea Pl"oducts tJ.Jh erE•VE!r, Burg eo Ol" St. John's, and the people of the Pl"ovince, what plant tAli 11 c 1 o s e? No . 4.9 Rl

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. ·the Minister of Fisheries . MR. W. CARTER: No, Mr. Speaker. I think the people who are employed in that particular plant deserve the right to hear it from their employer rather than on the evening news. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Leader of Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, on Monday, Premier tabled the l"eport by Justice Mahoney in the House Assembly, .. accompanied by statement on the results of investigation into thc:1 actions the Minister of Social Services. the the Mr . of a his of Mr.

Speaker, I refer the Premier to page 16 of that. par·ticular report, and it clearly shows that within two weeks of being sworn into Cabinet, ·the Minister of Social Service 's had arranged a meeting between himself, the Minister of Fisheries, the Minister of Soc ial Services' brother, a lawyer and a naval architect.

That is according to the statements made on pagE:~ 16 of the report. rhe Premier 1.1.Ji.ll know, also on page 16 of the report, that just one week before the Government took office the Minister of Social Services, as he is now, made a statement to an employee of the Fisheries Loan Board that in a tAIE!ek 's time, when the new Government took over, he would see to it that matters were straightened out at the Fisheries Loan Board, if he got the appointment he was looking for. L.2 Decr:'mber 7, 1989 Vol XLI AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) . MR . RIDEOUT : Ml". Speaker· I am quoting fl"oiTI Ml". Justice Mahoney.

I can no l: say if it i.s Wl"ong or right. lhis is what is in the report on page 16 . Now I want to ask the Premier, Mr. Speaker, in vieiAJ of the fact that, according to Mr· . Ju stice MahonE•IJ, only two weeks after the Government was sworn in the Minister of Social Services ar1"anged this rrJE!et:ing IAiit.h thE! Minister of Fisheries , t.~o.d. l: h · the Minister of Social Services' brother, legal counsel and naval architect, is the f>I"E!ITr:iE!I" concerned that the Minister of Social Services was in fact moving quickly to ensure that matters were straightened out at the Fisheries Loan Board? MR.

SPEAKER : The han . the Premier . PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I knotAI what. l:.he report says. The LeaciE!r of thE! Opposition has quoted it rE: ~asonably accurately. The report says l:hat the Minisb;~l" says, and this is t.~o.Jhc-.lt they . quo l:E!d, an individual is quoL1~d as say-.inq Mr . Justice Mahoney dOE!S noL knoiAJ whether he said it or not, but this is the comment Lhc'L an individual repol"t.ed t.:o Mr. Justoi.ce Mahoney, that the Minister said s om e t h i n g t o l: h e Ed :· f ~~ c t , " W P 1. l , next week, when we forrn thE!

Government, i.f I get the job I expect, things wiJJ be straightened out around here." I think later in the Report ., I do not know exactly wher·e it is, Ml". Justice Mahoney commented on the comment itself and said that he could understand that the Ministel" No. tt.9 R2

might make such a comment in the exuberance of the moment. We found out that a great deal of things needed to be straightened out. We have not yet straightened out everything. We have a lot more straightening out to do. We have done some, so it is not unusual that the Minister should make that kind of a comment. However, I can assure the Hot~se and the Leader of the Opposition, as Mr. Justice Mahoney has found, that nothing l:he Minister has said or done has had any bearing on the way the Fisheries Loan Board operates. The Minister has not been asked for· his comment on it, and I do not intend to ask him now. MR.

SPEAKER: fhe hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated, we know from Mr. Justice Mahoney's Report that the Minister of Fisheries acknowledged that there were meetings arranged on May 17 and May 18 to talk about matters related to the M.V. Shelby Ann. Also, on page 18 of Mr.

Justice Mahoney's Report, he acknowledges that the Minister of Social Services attended a meeting on June S with the Minister of Justice, again with the Minister of Social Services' brother in attendance and a lawyer, to discuss problems with the Shelby Ann and the proposed claim against the F:isheries Loan Board. Not.u that was the second meeting in three weeks, Mr'. Speaker, arranged by the hon. Minister.

Is the PrE!mier not:. that his Minister Services was moving very quickly to t1ny now convinced of Social indeed very, to straighten L3 December '/, 1989 Vol XLI out matters between his brother and the Fisheries Loan Board? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Pr·.:1mier . PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I do not have the stab:Hnent. I issued to the House. I will get it. But hE!rE! is thE! position on it.

Judge Mahoney said this: "It may have been ill-advised or imprudent of John Efford, as Min:i.ster, to haVE! tai<f.:'l'l such an active role on his behalf, particula~ly after receiving advice from the Depal"trnent of Justice on June 5 and June 7. However, that is nol:. a mal:t~~r l:o bE! dealt tAli th by rn~~. It does not come t..ui thin my b.>r·ms of reference." Well, I do not necessarily agree with the Judge that it did not come:' LAdth'in thE! terrns of reference. I think that perhaps it did.

Nevertheless, here is my response to it - I tab 1 e d it in the H o us e and I t..ui.lJ. repeat it now - I have no hesitation in dc::,aling LAJi.th it and saying that such actions do not conform to a standard of behaviour for Ministers that is acceptable to this Administration. I have stated clearly what the posit:i.on is 1..uith rE!spect to it, and I do not need l:o go beyond that, I do not think. MR. SPEAKER : fhe han. the Leac!E:'I" 0 f' l:he 0 p p o s it i o n .. MR. RIDEOUT : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . Despite the advice Ministe~ of Justice, Board had no liability Efford for the problems the vessel.

Two days June 7, the Minister Services appeared at No . LJ 9 Fi"orn LhE! that Loan to Hal"old re l<-l ted to la t:.c::'r, on of Socia1 anothl?.ln R3

meeting, again in the Department of Fisheries, and only left, Mr. Speaker, when he was advised to leave. and this is on Page 7 of Mr. Justice Mahoney 1 s Report -- he only left when he was advised to leave - by legal counsel representing the Fisheries Loan BoaJnd. flnom the .Department of Justice. AN HON. MEMBER : That is wrong. MR . RIDEOUT: Now, Mr. Speaker. I cannot deter·rnine whether "it is right or wrong. I am quoting from the document the Premier tabled in the House. submitted to the Premier by Mr. Justice Mahoney. What I want to ask the Premier, Mr.

Speaker. is this: The Premier says it was not proper conduct for a Minister. I want to ask the Premier how he can say it was not proper conduct for a Minister, it is not p1noper conduct for future Ministers, it is not proper conduct for tomorrow, and accept it as proper conduct for today, and accept the Minister back into his Cabinet? MR . SPEAKER: The han. the Premier . PREMIER WELLS: It is fairly simple. Mr. Speaker. First. I straighten ouL the inaccuracy in what the Leader of the Opposition has said. The meeting hE! talked about on June 7 was not arranged by the Minister. MR. RIDEOUT : I did not say so.

I said he turned up at the meeting. PREMIER WELLS : He turned up at the request of Mr. Petten, who specifically requestc:'d L4 December 7. 1989 Vol XLI that he attend the was there, and when the advice, he l~Ft after a few minutes. AN HON . MEMBER: meeting. He he received the meeting Why then? Because:~ he lAJas t.o1d by the latAJY e1n? PREMIER WELLS: He _____ tJJas- req-·uest(~d l~o al:.t(:!nd thE! meeting by the VE!ry man tJJho madE! the complaint, so he left Lhe meeting and that was the end of it. Now, Mr. Justice Mahoney dealt with all of it. He spe1lE!d it all out.

I · tabled all the information, the full report in the House, and I acted on Lhe basis of thE! informati.on that is in the report. I expressed clearly my position and the Government 1 s position tAiith resp,,!Ct to that kind of conduct, and stated clearly that such acl ~ions do not conform to a standard of behaviour for Ministers that is acceptable in this Administration. Then I tAlent on to say. I explained why. and I do not ne(>d to repeat that. I spellE!cl out why it is, it is j_n t:hE! rE'I:>OinL. I am, hotJJever, cogn tzant ol l~he SPE:'cific findings of Mr·.

Justice Mahoney, that the Minister· of Social Services. and here I quote Mr. Justice:> Mahoney. 11 had not completely shE!Cf his previous r·ole as an action-oriented Opposition M. H. A. 11 Second1y. 11 MOinE!OVE!I". I have Found no evidence of any att.ernpt by John Efford to ob ·Ul:in prefere~tial treatment For his brother in this rnat ·ter. 11 Thirdly. 11 Nothing John Efford said or did, as a Minister of the:~ CrotAJn, throughout this affair constitul: .ed an impropriety. 11 So, in ·those circumstances, in all of Lhe circumstances, all of which have been made public, I have askc:~d Mr.

Efford to resume his duties as Minister of Social Services. No . 4-9 R fl.

In the meantime, however, I have also said that he and all other Ministers are fairly warned that such actions on behalf of any constituent, related or othert.uise, in the matter of a claim of a constituent against the Crown or any agency of the Crown is totally unacceptable and, in future, t~Jill result in a request for an immediate resignation. Now, maybe he would like me to tear off the Minister's toes, but, I mean, I have explained what we have done. If the Leader of the Opposition does not like it, I can understand his expressing an opinion.

But what we have done and the reason For it has been explained in detail to the House and to the public. I do not see what asking the questions adds to what has already been said. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT: It might never be apparent to the Premier why we ask questions, but it is our responsibility to ask them, and thE!re are a thousand and one questions in this document that the Premier tabled in this House on Monday. Now, Mr. Speaker, let me go on in this sequence.

During the summer months, the Deputy Minister of Justice recalls that this Minister, the Minister of Social Services, brought up the subject of his brother 1 s claim on l:t.uo or three occasions. I refer the Premier to Page 19 of Mr. Justice Mahoney's Report. And the Minister would explain t:.o the Deputy Minister of Justice the nature of the claim against his L5 Decembe1n 7, 1989 Vol XLI . brother and express the opinion that the Department of Justice was somehow or another· interfE!ring in the claim not proceeding. Is the Premier not concerned, Min.

Speaker, with the continued persistance of the Minister of Social Services in pursuing this matter with Ministers of the Crown, but more particularly lAJi.th the Deputy Minister of Justice? MR. SPEAKER: Thel10n:-tTie Pr~~ntier. PREMIER WELLS: Yes, Mr. Speaker. That is precisely why I said I have no hesitation in d~~aling with it and saying that such actions do not conform to a standard of behaviour that is acceptable to this Administration. That is 1~1hy I said so. Yes, I am concerrH'!d about it.

It is not an acceptable standatnd of behaviour and I have told the Minister and, in saying so, he and all other Minister's are fairly warned that that wil1 not. be tolerated. Now, this is l:.he first occasion since the new Administration formed office that any Member has done any act thc-:tt. has been questionable. Now do you in those c.ircumstancc;!s say chop off his hE!ad right atAJay and have nothing rno1nc?. to do IAJith them?

I do not think that that is necessarily the right course of action; you disclose the IAJhoJ.e thing to the pub1ic and I arn prep~red to let the public of this Province judge the propriety of thE! actions of thE! Min:i.str:~Jn, and the Government subsequent to the actions of the Minister in dealing with t.his rnatter. Yes I I am concerned, that is why I said so in the statement. SOME HON. MEMBERS : No. 49 R ~)

Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition . ~~:..._!li.D E OUT.: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker, the ma·tte1n is raised again by Mr. Justice Mahoney on page 20 of his report, when he reports that the Deputy Minister of Justice, on October 24, received a visit from the Minister of Social Services wanting to discuss a couple of matters with him. Mr.

Justice Mahoney in his document, on page 20, details lAJhat the couple of matters are, but then goes on to say that the vast majority of the time was taken up by that Minister discussing with th~ Deputy Minister of Justice again the matter related to the claim before the Fisheries Loan Board. Now, Mr. Speaker, this is almost six months - AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible). MR. RIDEOUT : Mr. Speaker, I could nat ~ cat"e what the Minister thinks, same question or not.

This is almost six months and there has been presistent, constant inter·ference, certainly on a t..Yeekly basis, day after day, week after week, by this MinistE!r, now with the Deputy Minister of Justice . Does the Premier think that ·.is the appropriate action For a Minister six months into his job? I mean, we could all forgive it after, perhaps, the first two or three weeks, month, two months, but this is six [Tionths into his job as a Minister. MR. SPEA~ER: L6 DecembE!r 7, 1989 Vol XLI The han. the Premier. PREMIER WELLS: Let me correct the misstatements again, Mr. Speaker.

He said, 1 Day after day, almost on a weekly basis - almost on a weekly basis - the Deputy Minister of Justice, almost on a we~::~kly basis ovel" six months. In any six months thE!re is twenty-six weeks, okay? Now the Deputy Minister of Justice said , 1 on two o I" l: h r E! e o c cas :ions over the cou1nse of the surnrner. 1 Then he refers to October 24. Now that is weekly basis over six months. So, let . us gE!t ·the exaggeration out of the I..Yay fii"St and let us deal with the issue.

It has been all sp~':!lled out and I stated clearly that this is an unacceptable standard of behaviour for this Administration, and we took the action we did bE:~cauSE! I had doubts about it and I wantNI to find out exactly what occurred. I found out E!xactly t..Yhat occurred. I have Mr. Justice MahOnE!Y 1 s report on . thE! detail. And I spelled out For l:he House and the people of this Province exactly what our j udgrnent of the matter is and what we are doing in this particular instance. Now I arn prepared to take the political respons ibility for making that d~::,cision.

That is rny decision, and I and nobody e1Sl'! i.n this House or this Province has political responsibility For il:. I have to lakE~ it.. It rnay, in t:he judgment of the Leader of the Opposition, be not l:he correct action to take and he can expl"ess that opin:i.on if he J.ikE!S. I can say to him I think l:he ac l:.ion tAle have taken in the cir·curnstances is l:he correct action. It does not agree that such actions are appropriate. I have said so, I have lAJritl:en it, I have tab1ecl H:, and I said it a dozen Urnes: Such No. 49 1~6

actions do not conform to a standard of behaviour for Ministers that is acceptable to this Administration. N·ow even if he asks the question in respect of every single incident or day on the five or six or seven occasions when it occurred, the answer is still the same: Such actions are not acceptabJ.e. In the circumstances, I have asked the Minister to resume his responsibility in the manner in which I have outlined. That is the full story. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT : Mr.

Speaker, the Premier can to tlAlist statements and lAlords he wishes to skate around very difficult subject for politically. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! the try all this him I just want to bring to the attention of the Leader of the Opposition that he is not supposed to debate the answers of the Premier, but get on to the question. I rE!alize, also, that I have been allowing some lengthly answers, but it has been the sort of repetition of the questions. So if the hon. gentleman would get to his question. I realize this is an important ·topic, and I have been giving a lot of leeway.

The han. the Leader oF l:he Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I appreciate Your Honour's indulgence in view of what I think L7 December 7, 1989 Vol XLI is the gravity of the subject, anyway. Now, Mr. Speaker, let mt::' ask thE! Premier this: On October 26, l:he Deputy Minister of Justice again tAJas advised that the Minister of Social Services wanted to set. up another meeting with him, lAlith his brother and with a lawyer, and the Deputy Minister of Justice cancelled that meeting.

Then on the 27, the next day, the Deputy Minister of Justice informed the Premier's Office of the interference of the Minister of Social Services. That. is on pi!llJE! 27 of the document. AN HON. MEMBER : -(I naudi b J.e )-·~- - MR. RIDEOUT: I do not know if the Minister read it or not, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. RIDEOUT: I do not know if he read it, b u t that is Mr. Jus tic!!:~ Mahoney's words on page 27 of the document. NOLAJ, Min. SpE•akeln, it. so happened that coincidentally that same morning, according to this document, the le L ter app1:'a1ned f1nom Mr. Pet ten.

Now, LAJhat l t..uant to ask the Premier is this: Was it the letter from Mr. Petten that triggered the Premier to ask for this investigation, or was it, in fact, the infor·mation pass13d that sam<:~ morning to the Prern:i.etn' s office from the Deputy Minister of Justice about the continued interference of the Minister of Social Services with the Department of Justice? What triggered the Plnernier to ca11 the investigation? No. 49 R'l

MR. SPEAKER: The han ·.· th·e Premier. PREMIER WELLS : Mr. Speaker, let. me correct a misstatement again in the Leader of the Opposition's statement. Mr. Justice Mahoney did not find that on the 27th the Minister of Social Services asked to have a meeting set up. On the 27th, or the 26th, the Minister of Social Services, I am advised, was, in fact. out of the Province. The office of the Minister made the request ·Without any knowledge of the Minister on the 27th. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, he!ar! ·---- PREMIER WELLS: If hon.

Members want to laugh like a group of hyenas and try and give credibility to their position by ridicule in that way, it adds no credibility. Just be accurate. I am quite prepared to deal with the accurate facts, so I am setting the accurate facts of the matter. Now, what triggered the neCE!SSi ty was the letter from Mr. Petten. That is lAJhat triggered the necessity for the action. That is what caused me to take action, it ~as in response to receipt this letter from Mr. Petten making these allegations.

I made some preliminary inquiries myself and I discovered, partly from the comments of the Deputy Minister of Justice that had been passed through t.he chief of staff, that these requests for meetings had been made. or the representations had been made. So, Mr. Speaker, we made the decision imm ediately to speak to the Minister concerned about it. When I confronted the Minister with these matters, he requested that he be relieved of the responsibility while this matter was investigated.

I L8 December 7, 1989 Vol XLI responded to his request, appointed a judge. and got a fu 11 statement of the facts, not muddied or affected by anybody . I got a judge to do an assessment of it and I have acted on it, havtng disclosed all the facts as found. Now, unfortunately, Mr. Speaker, the Opposition does not. likE! l:he discipline, and proper, and frank, and honest and straightforward way that the Goverriment has dealt with the matter, it causes them difficulty. But I have no rE!a son to be anything less than completely confident that we did the right thing in the matter. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Cover-up. Cover-up . MR . RIDEOUT : Guilty as you know what . MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Member for Humber East. MS VERGE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I have a question for the Minister of Environment and Lands about the Corner Brook PuJp and Paper Limited newsprint mill in Corner Brook.

As the MinistE•r is alAJclre, over the last three years or so, since Co1nner Brook Pu1p ancl Papli:'r has been burning wood chips and bark for fuel, the mi11. has bli:'e n l':~rnitting black, sooty particles as well as invisible fum~~s. and these air emissions have been bothc::~rsorne and annoying to residents of Corner Brook, particularly in the summertime. No. 49 R8 ·.

Mr. Speaker, as I know the Minister is also aware, the company has committed itseJ.f formally in writing to carrying out extensive improvements in the mill to cut down on these air emissions. The company has committed itself to installing a new boiJ.er. However, the company, for the second or third time, has just failed to meet one of the deadlines in the written compliance schedule. I would like to ask the Minister what he and his Department intend to do about this situation. MR. SPEAKER: The han . the Minister for Environment and Lands. MR. KELLAND : I would like to thank the hon.

Member for the somewhat lengthy question, Mr. Speaker. It is a well~known fact, reported on in the media, that the company did not comply with the deadline of letting the contract by the end of November, but have assured this department they will by the end of December. This, however, does not in any tJJay change our position with respect to completion of the boiler project by September 30, 1991. MR. SPEAKER : The han . the Member for Humber East . MS VERGE : Mr .

Speaker, thE!re has developE!d a pattern of Corner Brook Pulp and Paper Limited failing to mePt deadlines in lE!gal agreements the company has entered into with the Government. The company has just missed a deadline. The Minister is now saying he is confident the company will comply by thE! end of this month. I would likE! to ask L9 DE!cernbr:~r 7, 1989 Uol XLI the Minister what he is do if the company fails by the end of this month. MR. SPEAKER : going to to comply The hon. the Minister of Environment and Lands. MR. KELLAND : Mr. Speaker, that is a bit hypothetical.

I will have to wai t and see whether or not they comply. MR. R. AYLWARD ; Mr . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : The hon . the Member for Kilbride . MR. R. AYLWA_.R_Q: Mr . Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. Would the Minister tell me what his policy is notJJ on interfle>ring with companies lAJho .put in tenclet~s on projects and who do not have their provincial overh ead allowance number? MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Minister of Wo rks, Services and Transportation. MR. GILBERT: M1~. Speaker, I think tha t ts a sort of weird question, really .

ThE! policy is E!StablishE!d for hotAI we ar e to deal. tAli th compani es , and it is cov ered und er th e Pu blic T e n d e r A c t . I IAI i 11 tab 1 e l~ h e A c t for the Member tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Member fo1~ ICil.bt~:idr:' . MR. R. AYLWARD : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It might be a tJJeird question r--or the Minister, but it is well known that on one occasion the han. the No. 4-9 R9

Minister interfered with from a constituent of overruled the staff department and gave out to a company which did the POA number. a tender his and in his a tE!nder not have Mr. Speaker, what I want to ask the Minister is. there has been a tender requested for a project at the School for the Deaf, a ditching project, and the contractor who was the J.otAJest bidder has informed me that he has, on several occasions, tried to get a meeting with the Minister and his staff to give his case to the Minister to have the tender awarded to him. His was the lowest tender. but he did not have a POA number.

Since the Minister has overruled his staff on one occasion before, this contractor would like to have occasion to talk to the Minister to see if he could present his case. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Works. Services and Transportation. MR. GI LB E __ RT: Mr. Speaker, I have no problem tA.Jith talking to the genth,man. However, I must inform thE! House that the policy that is outlined in the Public Tender Act governing the POA is the only one I can work within. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Kilbride . MR. R. AYLWARD : A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

I probably would not have raised this matter except that the pE!rson who is about to receive the tender also has a discrepency in his tender proposal. It seems that the tender wiJ.l be atA.Jarded to the number two person on the list, but LlO December 7, 1989 Vol XLI there are discrepencies in both tenders. Both discrepancies are fairly minor ones, and if the second person can be con sidered tAli th a dis crepency, I do not see why the first person cannot aJ.so be considered with a slight discrepency, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Wor-ks, Services and Transportation . MR . GILBERT : Mr .

Speaker, I do not knotAJ of the incident the hon . Member is referring to, but I lAlill CE!rtainJ.y investigate it and I w ill table the answer tomorrow . MR . SPEAKER : The hon. the Member for Kilbride. MR. R. AYLWARD: Thi .s is a (i .nal supplernE•nt.ary, Mt". Speaker, to inform the han. Minister I was informE!d he wa s aware of it. I talked to his staff on this mat.l:E!r ', and so he1s the contractor. But. to inr~orrn Lhe han. Minister, thE! contract ts a ditching contract for the School for the Deaf, and the contrac tor's name is Rideout Transportation. MR. GILBERT : I arn not aware of it . AN HON.

MEMBER: It has nothing to do with him . AN HON. MEMBER: Nothing to do with him, no . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I just note a bit of a discrepency. I recognized Lhe han . Member For' a question , bu t I did not hear a question. I remind han. ME!rnbers they ar·E:' suppo SE!d t:o ask a question , and no cornment . No . 4-9 rno

One minute. The han. the Member for Kilbride . MR. R. AYLWARD: Will the Minister undertake to look into this matter on behalf of the contractor mentioned to see that justice is done on this occasion, and will he meet with the contractor. as the contractor has requested on several occasions. and he cannot get near the Minister? MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Minister of Works. Services and Transportation. MR. GILBERT: I have already answered several times, Mr . Speaker. MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: that The han. the Member for Burin Placentia West . Barely a minute . MR.

TOBIN : Mr. ~peaker. my question is to th.::~ Minister of Works, Services and Transportation . Can I ask the Minister whether or not he has made a r.::~quest to the Federal Government to cancel the road to Petit Forte? If so, what do they anticipate they will do with the funds in that allocation for the road? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. MR. GILBERT: No dE!cision has bE!E!n made on that yet, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Member for Burin Placentia West . Lll DE!cernbE!r 7, 1989 Vol XLI MR. TOBIN :. Mr.

Speaker, I am not asking if a decision has bet::~n made, I am asking him if there has been a request made to the Federal Government to cancel the lnoad going to Petit Forte and spend the funds elsewhere? That. is thE'! question. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation . MR. GILBERT: No decision has been made on that yet, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Question Period has expired. MR. TOBIN: You have requested it, Sir, to spend in the Premier's District . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER : Or·der, please! Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given MR. GILBERT : Mr .

Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : The han. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation . MR. GILBERT : Mr. Speaker, yesterday thE:' m~:~rnber fotn KiJ.bride (Mln. AyltAJard) asked me the question, 'I t/Jould ask l:he han. Minister if hE! cou1d E!XpJ.a:i .n to the Houst:! the Department's policy on the use of Department of Transportation equipment: and staff on private property and municipal property throughout the Province? No. 49 r~ 1 :1.

Here is the answer: During normal operations Department of Work, Services and Transportation staff and equipment will not do wo1nk on private or municipal property. There are occasions when work is performed in these areas under the following conditions: 1. During surveys for purposes relative to public works. 2. In case of emergencies such as floods, etc. , the Regional Director will use his own judgement · to decide if immediate entry is to be made. 3. Where an easement or agreement is obtained to enter on property to alleviate a highway drainage problem. 4.

Department of Works, Services and Trarisportation equipment may be hj_red to private individuals, school boards, churches, charitable organizations, Federal and Provincial Government Departments, Crown Corporations, Community and Town Councils, and contractors engaged by the Department, under the following conditions: (

a) When no other suitable equipment is available within a reasonable distance from the work site. (

b) At current rates set by the Department's Equipment Rental Rate

Schedule including actual labour costs and appropriate payroll burden and administration charges. (

c) Upon prior arrangement by work order or written request. 5. Snow clearing and ice control is provided on: -· (

a) Accesses or driveways to schools located outside municipal boundaries. (

b) Roads outside municipal boundaries which serve two or more permanent residents and which arE! built to a standard specified by the Department. (

c) Roads in Community Councils subject to written request from Council. (

d) Roads to cemeteries located outside municipal boundaries where interment is to be made. Ll.2 December 7, 1989 VoJ. XLI 6. As a general rule, Department equipme-nt is not hired to plnivate individuals except in extenuating circumstances where private contractors are not available within a reasonable distance, for' example, in Co as tal Labrador communities. MR. SPEAKER: The comment on that particular answer for Questions for Notice Given, the Chair did not gE! L the question. I assumed it IAJc-.ls aske!d in Oral Question Period. AN HON. MEMBER : It was asked yesterday (ina~dible) . MR. SPEAKER: Okay.

I wanted to co111rnenl: that that is certainly the kind of question that ought to have gone on the Order Pape1n as a IAWitten question. Since I dtd not hoar the question, the length of thE! answer by the Mints ter surely indicated that it ought to have been a written question. Petitions MR. SPEAKER: ThE! han. the Member for Fo1ntune ­ Hermitage. MR. LANGDON : Mr. Speaker, I have in my possession today a petition from thE! residents of the community of Gaultois, and I would like to read the prayer of the petition.

Before I read the prayer of the petition, I want to inform the House that the petition il:.se1f is not on House of Assembly stationery, but. is one thal: IAJas printed for a petition to the House of Commons and a separate petiti.on has a1rE!ady been SE!nt to the hon. ·Roger Simmons to be No. 4-9 R12

presented in that particular institution. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Since the han. gentlemen mentioned that, His Honour has seen the petition and it does not meet the strict requiremeni:s . of petition by the House, but, again, everything is genuine about the petitioners, the signaturE!S are genuine, it is simply that they did not have the right ptnayer and they sent a telegram to the han. Member today pointing out how they were not provided tJJi th the right prayer, so it can only be done by leave since it does not meet the re~uirements . The hon. Leader. MR. BAKER: ------- ·the Government House Yes, Mr.

Speaker, really what counts is the intent of the people who presented the petition. We are quite willing to, by leave, listen to the petition . . M R . S P E A K E R : By leave . The hon. the Member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR . LANGDON: ~ ·· . ···- Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I want to thank the Government House Leader. The prayer of the petition states,

WHEREAS the citizens of Gaultois are concerned about the possible closure of our fish plant: by Fishery Products International, and

WHEREAS we feel that we have suffered enough cutbacks to our plant 1 s operations already, and

WHEREAS the closure of our fish plant would lead to the death of our community, THEREFORE the U3 December 7, 1989 Vol XLI undersigned, your petitioners, humbly pray and call upon the House of Assembly to prevent our plant from being closed by Fi shery Products International. Mr. Speaker, tl1e peti U.on is signed by 346 residents of that particular town . It is uJtt:h prid e but it is also ~ith concern that I present this particular petition on behalf of this historic community. Mr. Speaker, this community of Gaultois once was the headquartE!rS for Thomas L..

Gar1c-.ll1d and Sons, one or l:he largest retail and wholesale distributors in the Fortune Bay and HE!r'lllitage area . With its long-stand ing history not only in the retail trade but also in the fi sh business, this particular plant also, Mr. Speaker, was formerly owned by the Lake Group of Companies, and within thE• last number of years has been taken over and it survived the restructuring in 1981. This particular plant, as I said earlier, is the lifeblood of that particular community . The people from that area have seen thaf plant in Gaultois go from a twelve month operation, Mr.

Speaker, to about a fourtee:~n or fifteen week operation. The people from that community recognize, and in th ei r discussions l~o.Jith the Pr·esident of Fishery Products International , that plant in Gaultois can never operate in its present condition . There are ttJJo manageJnE~nt positions, Mr . Speaker, in l:he area. One in Harbour Bt~E!ton and onE~ in Gaul tois. Thetne are l'.:t~o.Jo of eVE!rything and thE! council in their visit to Fishery Produ cts International a few days ago asked them to relieve the plant. if you wish, of that managerial posit ion No. 49 R13

because it was a liability to the company. They felt that it could very well be served as a satellite of the Harbour Br·eton plant, take the managerial position out of it, take the meal plant out of the plant, but leave the rank-and-file person there. Leave the jobs in the community. Because, Mr. Speaker, the community of Gaultois will not survive if this particular plant moves out. Particularly, because the community of Gaultois is an island and the terr·ain is rugged. There are no vegetation for agricultural prospects, Mr. Speaker.

The community with its longevity · with its history, with its historic value will not be able to survive and what you will have, Mr. Speaker, is a community that has traditionally been dependent upon the fishery will be wiped from the map of this particular Province. So it is with the concern that I have for these people, and concern for the community, to alleviate the devastation that. is about to occur if the plant would close. So really, what these people are asking today, Mr.

Speaker, is that the community not be allowed to d e h y d rate , no t a 11 ow i t to s h r i v e 1 up , not a 11 ow it to dry up , not allotJJ it to completely obliterate, if you wish, from the map of this Province.

So it is 1~11 th that concern, and concern not only of myself, but of people in that area, they wouJ.d humbly pray that this petition would be presented in this House, and has been presented and that all Members of the House would support this particular petition to ensurE! the future of the community of Gaul tois, but more important than that ensure the future of the L14 December 7, 1989 Vol XLI ·. people there who have been dependent upon this particular mode of employment and a way of life for the last 200 years. So, Mr.

Speaker, today it is ur.i.th pride as I have said but it is also with concern that I preSE!nt this particular petition to the House of Assembly on behalf of the residents of the Town of Gaultois. SQ.!':'IE HON. Ms_MBERS : Hear, hear! MR. W. CARTER: Mr . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Fisheries . MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I want to res pond , to the petition so ably presented by my friend across the way and I can tell him now that certainly on this side of the House therE! is absolutely no question as to the hon. Member's sincerity ancl his deep concern for the people who live in Gaultois.

I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, that we share !:hose concerns and like the hon. MernbE!r we have grave doubts as to wha~ is going to happen to the fishing industry on that par't of t:he Newfoundland Coast. I understand that the owners of FPI, the company that operal:es t.hE! plant in Gaultois, have had meetings, I believe, lAJ:ith l:.h1?. council and others in that. community, and have pretty well told them exactly what the situation is and mayb1~ lAJhat they should expect.

And I think the president of FPI has made it known to the residents that no final decision has yet been made as to exactly what the future hoJ.ds for the Gaultois plants. No. 49 Rlll-

Of course,- Mr. Speaker, we all know that we are facing a severe crisis in the fishing industry. And I think it would be sticking our heads in the sand we1ne we to pretend that all of the Newfoundland plants can operate, given the fact that the quotas will be very substantially reduced for the 1990 fishery. But certainly like the han. Member we can only hope that a solution will be found and that maybe ways and means will be found by the company and by l:he Federal Government who, I should remind the House, is responsible for the allocation of quotas and for the management of the resource .

We can only hope that ways and means will be found to avert maybe a closure, although that might not be a simple thing to do, but certainly we hope that happens. But, Mr. Speaker, again being quite honest and being quite practical and realistic if in fact it is found that it is necessary that the plant be closed, then certainly I can give the han. Member an assurance and the people of Gaul tois, that we on this sidE~ and this Government t..ui11 leave no stone unturned to ensure that the impact on the people concerned wi 11 be 1 e s s e ned to as g r E! at an extent as possible. But again, Mr.

Speaker, I appreciate the comments of the han. Member. I know he is sincere in what he says. And I can only assure him that WE! share his concern and that if in fact it is found necessary that the Gaultois plant must close or be scaled down considerably, then he can assure his constituents on our behalf that we will do all we can to ensure that the impact will be made as painless as possible. 1..15 December '7, 1989 Vol XLI SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Member for Grand Bank . MR. MATTHEWS: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to support the people of Gaultoi~ in their resolve to have their fish plant continue in their town. And I would like to co1nmend and congratulate my colleague for Fortune - Hermitage (Mr. Langdon) for so ably and so seriously and sincerely presenting the case on their behalf. And there is no question, as he has alluded to, and both the Minister of Fisheries, that for Gaul toi s thE :!Ine is no other future except the fishery. And I would just like to remind the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Carter) again in his cornrnents that when he continuously and consistently talks about it being a Federal Government problE!rrl, that Gaultois is a community in New~oundland and labrador, and that he is Minister of Fisher·tes for Newfoundland and Labradol" and that the Provincial Government can prevent a plant closure in Gaultois if they hav~~ the lAii11 to do so. They can prevent plant closures in any of the Fishery Products Int~rnational plants in this Province, if they have the wil1 and desire to do so.

All they have to do is object to Fishery Products IntE'I"naU.onaJ. closing any fish plant, make a referral to a reputable chart:elnE!d accountants finn :in this Provtnce, if there wiLl. bE! losses inc uri"E!d as a result of the conttnuation oF the Gaul toi s fish plant , then the Provincial Government 1..uill pick up the tab For the losses and the No. 49 RlS

peop~e of Gaultois will continue to work. - So it is not good enough for the Minister of Fisheries again today to stand in this House of Assembly and to slough the problem off on the Federal Government. We know there is a very serious resource problem in all of our fish stocks around our shores.

If we properly manage those fish stocks. if we take remedial action now, which we will take by reducing the Total Allowable Catch in 1990, those fish stocks will rebuild and replenish and. consequently. · in future years, as the stocks rebuild and replenish. then there u..Jill be more fish allocations for Fishery Products International and National Sea . More fish will be able to be landed in Gaultois. The people will work for longer periods of time per year, make more money. and go on about making a living and being comfortable where they have always lived and worked. in their own town of Gaul to is.

Now, that is the crux of this particular fisheries crisis. If you shut Gaultois down, there wi 11 be no tomorrow. If it takes a few million dollars a year for the Provincial Government to keep the people of Gaultois working in Gaultois, so what! At least you have a futurE!. And I ask thE! question, Mr. Speaker,· in this Chamber, what: are Governments for?

When just three or four days ago, we satAJ the Minister of Finance brag in this House of Assembly that there is a $51 million or $52 million surplus in current account in this Province, what would $2 million or $3 million mean to the Treasury, if it means keeping 300 or 400 jobs in Gaultois until our fish stocks rebuiJ.d and they get five and six and eight and ten months work a year? 1..16 December 7, 1989 Vol XLI Mr. Speaker, that is the kE!Y to this whole problem. But the Provincial Government is not u..lilling to put one cent :i.nt-:o the problem facing the fishery in th-.i.s Province.

If they were, they could keep all plants open and the people could work wherE! they have lived for years and thE:~ir futUJnes would be secure. Mr. Speaker, on this side, we totally support thE! peopJ.E! of Gaultois in a resolve to keep their fish plant open. We onJ.y beg the Provincial GovernmE:'nt, l:he Government first responsible, to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, to the people of Gaultois, to put in a ·Fet.u mi1lion dollars so that those pE!OplE• can stay where they have their horn:~s and their families, making a meaningful living.

And, as the fish stocks rebuild, they will rnake a better living and be happy whE!re they are. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 0 0 0 MR. RIDEOUT: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, before getting to Orders of thE! Day, I wc:,lnt t.o ra:isE• a point of order. I want. to say quite frankly, Mr. Speaker, I arn reluctant to raise it. In fact I had been hoping I wouJ.d no l haVE! to raise it. But I hav•? to, Mr. Speaker. I have noticed over the last No. 49 Rl6

gosh, almost since this session began, I guess, certainly over the last four or five weeks, that consistently, when the· han. the Member for Humber East (Ms VergE!) is on her feet asking a question or participating in debate, coming from this corner of the House and I do not know if Your Honour has picked it up yet, but. I can pick it up here quite clearly; I am sure that people in the gallery next to the rail down there can pick it up quite clearly. I am reluctant to name the Member, although I think I know who the Member is after today 1 s performance.

Suffice it to say at this moment, com:ing from that corner of the House is nothing only a weening, wailing, sexist-oriented noise . Now, Mr. Speaker, as I said, I am very reluctant to raise this, but I am getting more and more upset about it every day and I think practically every Member in this House hears it. Certainly, the snickers that go on, the catcalls that go on when that hon.

Member is doing what she was elected here to do, get up and ask questions or participate in debate, does not do anything, in my view, to add to the decorum of this House, in fact, it very, very largely detracts from the decorum of this House. As I said, Mr. Speaker, I have been noticing this now for IAJeEd<s on end. I have been reluctant to raise it, hoping that Your Honour, since you reminded us the other day that you had good hearing ability, might eventually pick it up. But today it !Alas so noticeable, I could hear it quite clearly up here. I have noticed it day after day when that han.

Member is on her feet, and I think, Mr. Speaker, not for the sake of the han. ME!mber, as rnuch, Ll? December 7, 1989 Vol XLI but out of respect for the constituents who elected her to this House, out of respect for each other in this House, I think it should stop. Now, thE!re is nodding going on down in the other corner and I know that han. Members know what I am talking about is correct. It should stop. A stop should be pul :. to it once and for all, and I hop E! t.hat, having raised it now, I will never have to raise it again. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BAI<ER: Mr. Speaker . M~_ .:_.

SPEAKER: The hon . the Gov e r-rane n t House Leader. MR. BAKER : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I agree wi ·th the han. the Leader of the Opposition that theine arE!, at times, comments back and fo1nth and sounds, and so on, in the:! House that are not, in the patliamentary tradition, proper. I agree wholeheartedly. I did not hear the comments the hon. gentleman is referring to, maybe because I do have a hearing impediment, unlike Your lionour. I did not hear the corrnnl!:~nts. I have heard many other cornmt::'nts fi''Om both sides of thE! HousE:1.

I aglnE!E! !Ali th the Leader of the Opposition that perhaps we have to be a little ·more careful and control ourselves a litl:Je rnore, and not go beyond the nor·mal k:ind of repartee that will take place from time to time, and to cont1nol ourselves and try not to go beyond normally accepted practicE• in the House. So in that sense I agree. I would No. 49 R17

like to say to the Leader of the Opposition that there are things on both sides happening. And it is not one instance and I know the han. gentleman is referring to one particular instance that is of particular concern to him and I appreciate that. But there are other things that have been going on here on both· sides that perhaps we had better reconsider. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order.

And I can only make the comment that I made thE! other day, I hope that it was in public, it might have been in private, but in any event I make it, I just wonder if there is something wrong with this Chair, some disease that is transferable to Speakers because I have indicated that I do have tremendous good ears, but I must say I did not hear any of the comments to which the Leader of the Opposition is referring. But I will say this, the Chair would regard them very, very seriously had I heard them - and I will say this to the han.

Leader of the Opposition - if he hears them again the Chair would appreciate his standing on a point of order at the time it is made and see if we cannot see if Hansard is recording these things, but the Chair is very, very strict· about parliamentary language as everybody ought to know.

And to confer with the Government House Leader, I was going to make a comment on another matter· in the House today and for that very reason I am glad that the Leader of the Opposition brought that up and, suffice it to say, the Chair will not tolerate any remarks made by any Members, as suggested by the Leader of the Opposition, and that the Chair does consider that type of remark to be most unparliamentary and would consider L18 December 7, 1989 Vol XLI ·. .. the type of order a valid point of order, and had the Chair heard it naturally would do something about it, but.

I can only take {:he Leader of the Opposition's word for it and ask han. Members to refrain from doing this, if they have been doing it. The han. the Governrnent HousE· Leader. MR. BAKER: I want to do a couple of Fir·st readings, Your Honour. Motion 1. Motion the hon. the MinisU!ln of Justice to introduce a bill entitled , "An Act To ReviSE! The Law Res pectin g S e cur it i E! s , " carried. (Bill No. SS). On motion, Bill No. ')5 read a first timr::~, orderE!d read a fi1ns l time, ordered r•~ad a second time on tomorrow . MR.

BAKER: Motion 2, Your Honour. -Motion, Justice entitled, Human carried. the to han. the Minister of introduce a bill Act To Arnend The "An Rights (Bill No. Cod(:•, 1988," lj 6) . On motion, Bi 11 No. 56 l''oad a first time, ordered read a socond time on tomorrow. MS VER ._GE : Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER: The han . the Member for Humber East. MS VERGE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . On t h.::~ s e tl.uo Bi.lls l:hat just No. 4.9 R18

received first reading both of which are important Justice Bills, I would like to ask the Government House Leader (Mr. Baker) whether he intends to follow the plans that he initiated for the Health Legislative Review Co rnmi t tees , and have both of these BilJ.s refE!rred to the Social Legislative Review Committee chaired by the Member from Carbonear. MR. BAKER : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han . 'the Leader. MR.

BAKER : Government House Your Honor, I tJJould like to reserve an answer to the question, there seems to be a great deal of misunderstanding in the House as to exactly what process is supposed to occur with committees . This has only come to light in the last few days. and I really want to get this straightened out first before I know what to do. So, I think this is going to have to wait until tJJe come ·to some kind of an agreement as to what the cornrni ttees arE! doing. I have been befuddled, Your Honor, in the last few days by what is going on. MS VERGE : Mr. Speaker . MR .

SPEAKER : The hon . the Member for Humber East. MS VERGE: Thank you. Mr . Speaker. It is regrettable that the Member For Carbonear who chairs the Social Legislative Review Cornmit.tE!e is not here now, but I believe he would not hE!sitate to agrE!e with me when I say that that commith>e Ll.9 DecernbE!r 7, 1989 Vol XLI has worked extremely well. We have not bE!en given all. that much legislation to consider yet, but we stand ready to receive these Bills. And both the Securities Bill and the Human Rights Code amendments Bill warrant detailed consideration by the Committees, and perhaps in the discretion of thE!

Comrni t tE!e should be cons idE!InE!d at public meetings because both of these Bills effect a great nurnber of interest groups -.in U11:! Province.

And I simpJ.y n!fE!ln the Government House Leader to his own words printed in Hansard for June, 30, "I will now do that, Your Honour, and move that as legislation beco1nes availablE~ it be referred to the appropriate committee." I am simply asking the Government House Leader to keep his lAIC r d . and in the cas c~ o ·f these two important Just-ice BiJ] s which have been given first reading hear today by all Members, that he act immediately to refer those Bills to the Soc:i.al Legislative Review Committee. MR . BAKER : Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : The hon . the Leader. MR. BAKER : Go v E! n11ne n l~ House Mr.

Speaker. this is what befuddles me. A lot of BiJls have gone to the Comrnittet:' so Fc-un, to the three Committees. A J.ot. oF them have been dealt wil~h. As a mattE·r of fact, in a couple of cases there have been some changes made as a rE•sult. oF jnput f1nom LhE! Committee, okay. Nev1:!r' onc e has thE!re bE!E!n required in the House, because it is not a form of parliament, never once has there been required a Formal referral of Bills to committee. It is a simple matter, when l~he Bills a1nE• No. 49 Rl9

printed they are immediately given to the committee Chairman or whatever, and the committees do whatever they are supposed to do with them. There has never been a formal referral, and this kind of request befuddles me. Also, therC:1 has been a great d1::1al of dissent and difference of opinion. Your Honor. as you v.1ell know, over how the committees are to function. And right notAl, it seems to me, that the process really has broken down, and I am very anxious to get it started again.

Yhe original understanding the Member knows full well of what the committees were. has been followed, and it has always been clear to everybody concerned that there is no commitment that Bi 11 s have to be totally dealt with and back from the committee before they can be introduced in the House. This has been very clear to everybody. but all of a sudden the Opposition seems to indicate that. 1 no. that is not true. 1 So. my problem with it is that the Bills. as soon as they are printed. will be distributed to every Member of the House, the committees wiJJ . have them.

But we need, at some point, to st:r·aighten out this matter. that is a very important one, and I believe tAiill prevent the committees from functioning, and prevent this House from functioning, Your Honor, if things get tied up that way. So, all I arn saying to the han. Member is, give us a couple of days. The intent certainly was that these Bills would immediately go to the cornrni ttees, and obviously we have a lot of legislation there, and a lot more to come in in the next short while. And it is going to be some time before we even get to these L20 DecernbE!r 7, 1989 Vol XLI Bills in ter·ms of the House.

There is a lot of time ava :ilab1e, I am hoping that the:~ process t.~.ri.ll wo1nk, but i.n the last fE!lAJ days Your Honour I have my doubts . MR. SPEAKER : The Chair, is a little bit befuddled herr:1 as to lAJha l: we ar1:! doing, because we are just rNlding motions . I am not sure other than by leave of the House that this particular debate should be going on. I want to make sure that han. Members understand becausE! Wt:' are doing Motions, but if hon.

Members agree that they want to spend a few moments on this then the Chair lAiill acquiesce, or mayb(! we could go on and wait until the• lnE!gular Orders are called when there is more leeway. It is up to the han. Member for Humber East, I do not know how much longer this is going to continue. So the Chair is anxious to get on to the right procedure, but if Members just want. to hear another submission by the Member for Humber East that is just fine. The Member for Humber East . MS VERGE : Mr . Speaker, I lAd. 11 jusL be another minute.

I believe I heard Fro m the Governrne:~nt House L.eadeln, but I would like him to clarify l:his, in the caSE! of the tl.uo J'usticE• BilJ s just referred to, he is not intending to attempt to have UlE!m passed by the House quickly. He is planning to aJ.J.ow quit.e a bit:. of time,, which presumably will make provision for a full Legislative Review C0111111ittee consideration. That is a] l I was asking For. My final comment is thaL the No. 49 R20

Social Commi t:tee has tAJorked well. The breakdown to which he refers that has upset many of us is centered on one Bill, Bill 40, which the Government House Leader himself will admit has not been handled in the way that 'he proposed legislation be handled when he initiated the Review Cornrni ttees. MR. BAKER: Motion 3 .

Motion, the han. thl:~ Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs shall have leave· to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Urban and Rural Planning Act," carried. (Bill No. 51) On motion, Bill No. 51, "An Act To AmE!nd The Urban and Rural Planning Act" r1::1ad a first time, ordetned read a second time on tomorrow. MR. BAKER: Order 11. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act Respecting The Economic Recovery Commission " (Bill No. 40) .· MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR . RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr.

Speaker, in the short time that I had available to me on Tuesday I made a few prE!liminary 1nernarks on Bill 4-0, "An Act Respecting The Economic Recovery Commission." I believe we saw it again this afternoon, Mr. Speaker, while we were doing fir~t readings. It is vi tally important. I think. and I am not going to concentrate much L21 December 7, 1989 Vol XLI on it now, but I think it is vitally important for us to have some firm understanding iF the committee process is going to work properly. It is vitally important for us to have some firm understanding. Maybe it was too much to expect, Mr.

Speaker. that we could let this process, over any long period of time at lE!ast. kind of run ad hoc. Because once you are running sornE!thing ad hoc then it only takes for one side or the other to kind of get their nose out of joint and then the thing seems to gEd: oFf the ra:i.ls. I lAJould not want to seE! l:he Legislative Review Comm:i.tteE! process get off the rails. As I said on TUE!sday whE!n I last spoke in this ch:>bate, I l:hink it is a good process and we should ·try to keep it on the rails.

But when you do not have any firm understandings, whE.~n you do not have any guidelines. when you arE! trying to explore and t~un the affair on an ad hoc bc1sis then I think you \.l.lill without doubt. and perhaps of necessity have some breakdowns. and \JJe have SIH•n those breakdowns occur on a number of occasions now, but particularly as it ~elates to Bill No. 40 respecting the Economic Recovery Commission. Now, Mr.

Sp,~aker, in minutes that I have left second reading on this biJ.J., I want to try to l:hE! fetJJ to rne :i.n particular see if we are going to g1?.t some sense fr·orn t. hi ~; the Government of what Economic Recov'''I"Y Cornrnission is al1 about. I ended up I be].'.iE!Ve on Tuesday by indicating that it seemed to ITIE!, not that. I havE• any monopoly on wisd ·o111 in Ulis particular rnatlE!r, but il : seE!ITtec.i to me that the mandate to develop the rE!Sources of thE! Province is vested with the elected No. 4.9 R2l

Government. That has been the case in certainty forty-odd years of our history since Confederation. And it was the case, as I understand it, of most democratically elected governments in the British Parliamentary System as we know it. This Government has chosen to undertake a different approach. And as my colleague for Humber Valley (Mr. Woodford) said, it wi 11 remain to be seen whether the approach works or not. We first of all hope the approach will be successful. But we are now six or seven moths into the Economic ~ecovery Commission being set up. This is the legislation setting it up, but in fact it is up.

The Commissioners have been appointed. They were appointed in June . The Advisory Board has been appointed. That was appointed in June. And they have taken some time to get their office space and to get their shop set up. But they have now, in fact, been set up. So as we get into another three or Four months, Mr. Speaker, or certainly when we come back in session in the New Year we will be expecting to hear from the Government of the Province, report cards on what this Commission is achieving. Now it is not too much to expect that after a year or so in operation the Commission will be able to report.

It wi11 be able to give the people of this Province some positive indication whether or not they are achieving the objectives that have been set down for them in this particular bill. I think the objectives arE! nothing more or nothing less than what, by and large, ought to be the objectives and the mandate of the Department of Development. I said that as well a couple of days ago. L22 December 7, 1989 Vol XLI MR. EFFORD : You are not Premier . MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I am very w~:!ll aware of that bE! Cause if I was thE! hon. the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Efford) wou1.d not be in the Cabinet.

That would be a fact. But I am very much aware of that, and, Mr. Speaker, I would ask l:he hon. gentleman - and I do not mind him butting in once and a LAJ~lile - but I would not want him to make a total fool of himself, because he is 1.eaning out ov(,~r his dE!Sk Jii<E! this, which kind of gives thE! indication, Mr. Speaker, that he is going to be nattering at.~Jay For the next fifteen or twenty minutes. So I do not mind the occasional interruption or the occasional barb. In fact, I E!njoy it.

But. if he is going to get in a mode that is going to set hirn up to be a rocket launcher, launching across the House eve1~y tirn~ :! I say a word or so, then I am going to have to invoke the protE!Cti .on of Your Honour because I rn1:•an I am totally defE!nceless, Mr. SpE!aker, when up against the artillery of the hon. gentlr::~rnan. I am totally defenceless. I cannot cop1"! tAd th it. I wi 11 be flat tE• ned on thE• floor of the House and I would not want to voluntarily see that happen. AN HON. MEMBER : You cou1d gr::~t i.n a fist fight and (inaudible) . MR. RIDEOUT: That is the second tirne that happened .

MR. w. CARTER : (Inaudible). MR. RIDEOUT: That is l~ig ht. You know, you No. 4-9 R22

would think the hon. gentleman would be smiling, Mr. Speaker, and saying how delighted they were that the event happened. Now I could have waited until sometime in April corning. so the han. gentlemen would have lost seven or eight months of ministerial pay. They would still be over here moaning and groaning. You think thE!Y wouJ.d be giving me a clap on the back and saying thanks very much old man, I know you do not like it, but we are really delighted you did it. So you cannot have it both ways, Mr. Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible). MR. RIDEOUT: But to carne back to what I was saying, Mr. Speaker, AN HON.

MEMBER: There is no trouble to know that Clyde is gone . MR . RIDEOUT: No. it is no trouble to know. The Minister of Social Services (Mr. Efford) is right out thE!re. leaned out now, ready to go .. AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible). MR . RIDEOUi : Anyway. Mr. Speaker. it would be normal that the mandate of this Commission would be the mandate of the Department of Development. But be that as it may. the GovernrnE!nt havE• decided to set up the Commission. Now, Mr. Speaker. what is the Commission going to do?

We have heard from the Premier and the Government and IAJe see embodied in this Bill what the Government sets out as the principles and the mandate of the Commission. L23 December 7. 1989 Vol XLI AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) . MR. RIDEOUT: Did I hear it again? Mr. Speaker heard the point of order that I raised just after Question Period. Keep your ears open. AN HON. MEMBER: Do not blame mE! . MR. RIDEOUT: I did not bla1nc::' you l:h1;' las l: time. I said I was prepai~E·d Lo name the Member, and the next time I rise on a point of o1~der. I tell the House now, I will name the Member.

But I wa s fil~st of aJ.J trying to be a bit courtE!OUs and give the Member a chance to know I am concerned about it so Lhar . I would not have to publ"i.cJ.y ncHI!e the Member. BIJ L thE• second time. I will. Now, Mr. Speaker. thr:!· Cha"i.rpE•rson of this Commission has rnade it a point to go around this Province saying that the Cotnmission lAJill not bE! and does not. intE!nd to be a funding agency. I no l:iCE! l:he MinistE•r of Deueloprrwnt. "i.s waving that phrase in his hE!ad, but certainly. if he has bE!E:!Il l~E!pOl~tr:;!d correctly. Dr.

House has been reported as saying the agency does not intend to be a fund _ing agency . Mr. Speaker, Dr. House has mad, ,~ it known in various speeches around the Prou"ince that the agE!ncy sees itself as being the Facilitator, as being the initiator. of tl~ying to initiate development opportunities all around NewfoundJ.and and Labrador by stimulating other people to inuest, by stimulating rural development, by bringing to fruition development ideas in No. '~9 1~2 3

Newfoundland and Labrador. He has indicated clearly that it will not necessarily be the role of his Commission to provide funding for any of those developments. Oh, yes, he has indicated that there is a Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation pool of funding, he has indicated there is the Rural Development pool of funding, he has indicated there are other provincial sources and I of course, he has indicated that there are a number of federal sources that can be tapped.

But, listening to what the gentleman says, it seems very clear that. the Economic Recovery Commission will steer pE:~ople towards those sources of funding, but not itself be a funding agency. Now, I do not know if that is the case or not. Certainly, that is the impression that I and othE!rs have gathered by reading speeches that Dr. House has made ar·ound the Provice. Maybe the Minister of Development, whE!n he speaks, might be able to tell us clearly whether or not - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. RIDEOUT: I would not set up the Commission.

I had no intention of setting up the Commission, because that is the role of Government. Mr. Speaker, as I was saying, the Minister of Development might be able to tell us whether or not there wi11 be, whether it is envisioned by Government that there is going to be a pool of funding that the Economic Recovery Commission wi1l be able to utilize for capital purposes; no L For administrative purposes, we know that. That will be voted by t~his L.2 4· DecembE!r 7, 1989 Vol XLI House to administer the affairs of the Commission.

But tJJill thero be a pool of funding that the Government will identify and have at the disposal of the Economic Recovery Commission, to Fund projects that the Commission thinks are worth funding For· job development opportuni U.E!S in r·utnal Newfoundland I or anywhE!n:! in Newfoundland and Labrador? That has not yet been made clear .

Now, if the Commission is not going to haVE! any soutnce of funding availble to it, then I really believe that this high-power Commission, so -called, will have lost almost from the beginning, any significant opportunity it may have had to create development opportuni toi .es in this Province. I mean, most people in this Province know what programs are available through NLDC now. Most people who want to know, know what program fund:ing is available through rural development now. You do not nE!E!d a $3 million commission to make that available to the peop1e of this Province, Mr. Speaker.

So, if there J.s not going to be a cap1.tal pool of funding For this Commission, then what is it lnE!a11y going to do? Is it just qooing to disseminate information? Well, there is already a process through NLDC J.n all the regional off:i.ces around this ~rovince to disseminate information. It. rrd<:Jht need to be improved. rt might need to be enhanced but the process is there, Mr. Speaker. I think what we are lacking herE! at. the moment is any clear indication of whether or not ther·e :is going to be a capital pool of funding. That will be important.

How atnE:~ farmers going to develop the agricultural potential of this Province? How are tourism No. 49 R24 -

...:..:... developers going to further develop tourism potential? How is small business going to develop potential opportunites throughout t hi s Pro v i n c e u n 1 e s s there t s a . new pool of capital for investment purposes? A lot of it is going to have to continue to be high risk capital, Mr. Speaker. The chartered banks will lend according to their guidelines and to their programs.

FDBB will lend according to its, and NLDC according to its guidelines and programs, but, I suspect, that there is going to continue to be a need for high risk capital in this Province bE!Cause some of those ventures are going to continue to be risky, going to continue to be high risk, and I cannot see for the life of me, quite frankly, how this Commission can operate and be effective without some significant pool of capital available to it. And, that is the thing that concerns me about the indications that the Chairman has given so far. He talks about existing Government programs .

He talks about existing funding that will be made available. If this Commission does not have funding sources available to it I cannot see how it tJ..Ji1l do anything more than what another Government tried to do through the Action Committee, I believe it was called, back in the latter part of the 70s. If it is only going to steer people, direct people, help people fill out applications, and provide that kind of service and that kind of advice then I cannot see where thr::~re is going to be a significant difference. That is a question that I have not heard asked yet.

It is certainly a question that I have not heard answered·. I know the BilJ. is basically principles and mandate and I do not expect there will be a lot of detail in it, but, I L25 DE!Cernber 7, 1989 UoJ XLI ' . think, it would be important., tf we arE! going to gE!t a cJ.osE!r grip on what the Governrnent r'ea] .ly entails this Commission to do, if that kind of question were to be answered. Thank you . MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Development. MR. FUREY: Thank you, Mr. · Speakr::~r .

So far in this debate we have heard from the Premier of the Province who is normally allowed under the rules, I beJ.i.eve, an hour to speak, but. it was clear1y just an hour of total disruption and completely abusive by the opposite si.de, raising on a gJ~E!at many spurious points of order to disrupt the PrE!mier' s train of thought, to disrupt: th~:> argurnE!nts that he want ·ed to lay out, to disrupt the truth that: he lJJanted to present to · the House, of the economic circumstances Lhat this Province finds itself in afLer seventeen years of Conservative GoVE!Jnnment, Mr. Speaker.

He just wanted to lay that out to show basically how the economy has performed for the last seventeen years, but hE! lJ..las disrupte•d. I do not think that too 1nany Newfoundlanders need to be told, over and over again, just holAI this economy has performed under this Administration for Lhe past SE!Venteen years so I arn not go:i .ng to get into that . Let rne start by saying thE!re is a fundamE!ntal rule of physics, a basic law in the principle of physics. Anybody who studied physics knows that there is a fundamental rule that for every action there must be a reaction No . 4.9 R25

and what this Government has put in place, and acted very sensibly, we think, a Recovery Commission to address the very despicable way this economy has been allowed to fall into shambles for the past 17 years, and so we have acted. So what has the Opposition done -so far, Mr. Speaker? Under that principle of physics which you transfer to politics, they have merely reacted. And what has been their reaction to date? Their reaction has been negative. negative, negative. It has just been a collection of anti's. a coalition of negatives, they are against everything. Mr. Speaker, that is · with one exception.

Amongst that crowd across the way there was one shining example of a good speech given yesterday, a terrific speech, Mr. Speaker, an honest, straightforward, honest-to-God good speech, and it was presented by the Member for Humber Valley (Mr. Woodford) and I would like to congratulate him on his honesty. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. FUREY: I have known the Member for a while, Mr. Speaker, and he has always been very straightforward, very up front. He was that way when he sat in the Government back benches here For fou1n years, when I sat on the other side as an Opposition Member, and believe me, Mr.

Speaker. :i.n his short t:i.me in the Cabinet, and in his dealings with the Sprung issue, he was that way as well. And what did he say yesterday. Mr. SpE!aker. that causes me to rise in my place and say that amongst that coalition of anti's over there, amongst l:hat group of negatives. L26 December 7. 1989 Vol XLI those that are against, the reactive crowd, react negat:i.vely, against everything, what did he say yesterday that draws praise from this Member and this Minister?

Dealing with the resolution on unemployment, here is what he sa:i.d, and I quote from Hansard L20, December 6th: 'Getting back to the resolution, Mr. Speaker, the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador has a high unemployment rate.' H1~ said, 'That is no SE!Cret. WE! do.' and he said, 'We have had tt for· some tirne. We have now, and I suppoSE! we will have it for some time. until therE! arE! somE! rE!ITIE!die•s. ' Now. I congratulate thE!

M'''!lnbE!r on that up-front. honest admission. that we truly do, and have had For some time. some VE•ry dE!ep and disturbing unemployment rates in this Province, 'and we will.' hE! said, 'until such time as tAlE! come up with remedies.' Now, if we take thE! hon.

MernbE•r' s honest and logical statement to its logical · conclusion, we can only read into that he accepts that this Government has la:id out a case For recovery and that he stands behind the principles of this Bill, which is just: enabLing legislat:i.on to allow us to SE!t. up this Recovery Commission as a remedy to the problems that he enunciated yesterday, that we found in the past 17 years. Mr. SpeakE!r. he tAlent on to say. and I quote again. "Ev,?.rybody tried. 11 He was rE•ally saying everybody triE!d to correc L the unemployment problems.

He said, "I do not care uJhat Party you <:ire in or what Administration you serve under, it is not an easy job, as Members opposite arE! soon going to find out ." And lAH~ are finding out. Mr. Speaker. "They have been in for six months and, No. 4.9 R26

as I have said before, the j ur·y is out. But the jury is out, and I am one Member here, 11 h1~ the Member for Humber Valley, 11 and I am sure everybody else is with me, who wi 11 say I hope whatever you do works. 11 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! --- MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, we thank the han. Member sitting in Opposition. Number one 1..ue thank him for identifying, for being really personable enough to stand in his place and with dignity and honesty say, there has been a problem for 17 years. We thank him, Mr.

Speaker, for saying he hopes that our remedies will work and that we ought to find remedies for the economic circumstances that this Province found itself in, and we thank him for being honest enough to say and to admit that he hopes, as do every Member on this Government side, that what we do works . Because it is all for the benefit of all of us, and for the Province as a whole . Mr . Speaker, he went on to say, II fhe new Government, and rightly so, 11 he said, 11 is trying something new. 11 Now, IAJhat was he alluding to, Mr. Speaker, if not the Economic Recovery Commission?

Has there ever been an Economic Recovery Commission before? No . Has the economy ever been in the shambles before that we see it in now? No. So what he was really saying is that the new Government, and rightly so, is trying something new, and that something new is an Economic Recovery Commission. So, in total, Mr. Speaker, we on this side accept his honorable comments, and thank him for saying that we are on the right track, trying something new L27 DecembE!I~ 7, 1989 Vol XI...I to remedy the mistakes of the past. Now, Mr.

Speaker, let me r~::1ad another statE!ment, and IAJe t..u:i.11 see if any Members on the opposite side disagree with this statement. I hope they t~o.lill listen carefully to it, particularly the Member for Gr een Bay (Mr. Hewlett). 1 My GovernrTIE!nt is aware of the potential of imminent oil and gas devE!lopiTIE!I' its to enhance employrr11:•nt in this Province. At thE! sanw tim~:!, IAJE! remain extremely concerned over thE! leVE!l of unemployment in a] 1 areas oF the Province and, tn particular, over the extremely high unemployment rate of young people.

We are VE•ry much aiAJare of the serious effects that prolonged unemployment have on individuals as well as on the underutilization of productive human resources which this repr2.sents. Government wishes to ensure that the jobs arising from offshore development are distributed throughout the Province as equitably as possible .

For these rE!ason s, I arn appointing a Commission of five highly qua1.i.fied Newfound1andE!I~s to hold an inquiry into employment prospects and the problem of unemployrnent. 1 Now that was a statement tabled in this House January 14, 1985 by th e former Premier, Premier Peckf or d, I am sure on the advi ce o f his Chief of Staff, th e curr ent Member for Green Bay . So what we saw was a Government saying therl'! is a rnassivt::• problem, but get out there and find out the real roots, t:he r·eal· causes of this problem. So, Ml".

Speai<E!r, they set up t.his Co1nrnission of five highly qualified Newfoundlanders and Labradorians . Who were they? We1. 1, the Prem ier went on to say, 1 fhe Chair·1n an wi.ll No. 4.9 R2'7

be one Dr. Douglas House. 1 AN HON . MEMBER: Now! MR. FUREY : Well, he was highly qualified, respected by the previous Government then, but my God, we cannot get a decent, sane, sensible, positive word from the coalition of antis fo1n Dr. House, which gives crE!dibility to my argument that we simply have a collection of antis, a coalition of negatives. They are always against when it is opportune to be against. When it was opportune to be highly qualified and decent and dignified he was that then, but now it is opportunistic to say House is no good, Dr.

House is not going to do anything, this Commission is a waste of time. But, Mr. Speaker, let me go on to the Premier of the day, Mr. Peckford 1 s next commissioners. liE• was delighted at that time to appoint Mr. Harold Lundr:igan, a prominent Newfoundland businessman and Chairman of the Economic Council of Newfoundland . So, Mr . Speaker, we have just confi1nmed that your appointments to look at the problem, Dr. House and Mr. Lundrigan, were the right appointments. Why are you so against that which you were for four short years ago? - It does not make SE!nSE!. It does not add up.

They just want to be against For the sake of being against. Now let me say this: This new Government took the advice of the previous Government and named as our Economic Commission Chairman, guess who? Dr. Doug House. And we named as Chairman of the Advisory Board to the Economic Recovery Commission, guess who? Mr. Harold Lundrigan. 1.28 December 7, 1989 Vol XLI SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. FUREY: So, Mr. saying - SpeakE!r, .B1! ...... !:!.91L.__liS_~..f3.. .. ~.R : whr.lt tAle You are not reading that right . MR . FUREY: ar'E• I am reading it right, believe me . So what we are saying, Mr.

Speaker, is what was right then is right now . However, what tAle are saying also is it is not enough to just discover the probh~m. it. is not enough to just go around Newfoundland and Labrador· and Jay out what they believe are the root causes of a very sad and tragic set of economic circumstancE!S a1.1 over this Province, particularly in rural Newfoundland . That is not enough. We want to take from the work of the Cornm :i.ssion of t.he past, the Royal Commission on Employment and Unemployment, and build upon it.

We want to 1nove forward with these rE!comrnendat:i .ons that have not been acted upon, and this is what we are saying in this Bill: Enable us to allow this Commission to carry on its work. Now I admit that in the Opposition of the day Wt' asb:~d some pointPd questions. The Leader· of LhE:' day, Mr. Barry, asked thE:' PrE~rnier (Mr. · Peckford) whether this Commission would be a wastE! of t.i me. He did. I freely admit t.hat. LE!t rnE· read the res pons e o_ F the P r· e rrri e r of the day frorn Hansard L.817, May 23, 198S.

He said, 'Mr. ~3peakE!r, I think it is a bit early to judge the effectivenE!SS oF lh1::- Royal Commission that has been established to look al: employrnE~nt and unemployment in our No. 4-9 1~2 8

,~. Province.' I think Premier Peckford was right. It was too early to prejudge, or to judge at all, the effectiveness of the Royal Commission, and I say to the Opposition the words that were correct for Premier Peckford are also correct for the Conservation Party. Do not prejudge . the effectiveness of the Economic Recovery Commission until it has the chance to get up on its feet and to start conducting its work For r·eal, which is to correct jobs in Newfoundland and Labrador. Now, Mr.

Speaker, in the debate that has happened so far from the opposite side, if you can call it debate, there were a number of questions raist;-d. I think there have been two, three, or four so far, and I think I managed maybe to jot down maybe five issues. The first was, why is the Premier the one who is being reported to by the Economic Recovery Commission? ·why did l:his Gouernment choose to haue this high-powered Commission report to the Premier? Well, I suppose, we should let the han. Members in on a SE!Cret. The Premier is a Minister too.

He happens to be the First Minister, the lead Minister, whom this side is very proud of. What we wanted to do was give it top billing . You give somE!thing top billing by making it report to the top person. When the Economic Recovery Commission reports to the Premier, guess what? The PrE•mier reports to the Cabinet, all other· Ministers, and not only that, thE!n we report to the people through this Legislature. So, in answer to that very simple question, why is he reporting to the Premier?

Because we give it the highest priority, unlike previous Governments, who ducked their L29 DecernbE•r 7, 1989 Vol XLI heads in the sand. Do you rE!ca11 this in Opposition? 'What unernp1oyment rate? There i~ no unemployment rate. Everything is wonderful! The Private Sector Program is going to cure everything.' Is that not why the fluid unemployment rate from 1985 - 1989 went from som ewhere between 14 per cent and 23 per cent, up and down?

And that is not counting the hidden un•?.mploy~ :ld, those who have given up looking for work; that is not counting youth unemployment, that went as staggeringly as . high as 45 per cent at some points, when we sat ouer there. So, yes, we want an Economic Recovery Commission, but we want to tell the people that in order to get on the economic road to recovery, you have to get on the road to reality and facE! thE! facts as they are. So we gave it the highest billing, Mr. Speaker.

We said it lAJould report to the Premier and through the Premier to the Cabinet and through the Cabinet to the Province through the Legislature . A very simple answer. Now they asked a second qUE!St:ion: How much is this E con ()lfli c R e co u E! r y Commissi~n going to cost us? They were tossing around figures of $3 rnil1ion, because I think WE! ~1ad budgeted initi .ally $3 mi.llion. I think the lions share of that has been turned back to Government and to various departments. I think by the end of the · fiscal year they wil1 have spE!nt less than g;1 million.

But if you want: to use do1lars and cents as a yards U.ck to measure our Commission, tAle do not rni.nd. Let us use dollars and cents. Let us take the $3 million spent on the Royal Commission For Employment and Unemployment and add it to the $22 million spent on Sprung, For $25 million total, No. 4.9 R29

over five years that this Commission ought to be doing its work and moving forward, that is about $5 million a year. If you want to use economics and dollars and cents as a yardstick, write those numbers down and allow us to have $5 million a year with no criticism and we will be happy. Mr. Speaker, I think the Leader of the Opposition brought up the next point, and he wan ·ted to knotAJ lAJho has this Economic Commission consul ted wi·th? Have they talked to anybody since they have been established? Well, Your Honour, with the indulgence of the House, let me just name a few.

In the last three months Commissioners have spoken to the Grand Falls Central Community College System, they have talked to senior people at ACOA, they have talked to the Department of Employment and Labour Relations, the Department of Social Services, the central zone of the Newfoundland and Labrador Regional Development Corporation, they have talked to the Faculty of Business at Memorial University of Newfoundland and Labrador, they have spoken to the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, they have had consultations with the Science and Technology Advisory Council to Government, and they have talked to Treasury Board.

AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible) . MR. FUREY: I can imagine what they have talked to you about. They talked to the Newfoundland and Labrador Rural Development Council Board of Directors. They have consul ted these people.

They have spoken with the L30 December 7 , 1989 Vol XLI Intergovernmental Affairs Secretariat, they have spoken to the Conne River Indian Band Council, the Associati~n of Professional Engineers, the Federal Business Development Bank senior management, the Division of Extension Services at Memorial University, the Division of Extension Services at Goose Bay, Labrador, the Eastern Community College system in CJ.arenviJ.J.e, the Seabright Corporation at Memorial, the NewfoundJ.and Slate Operation, the DepartrnE!nt of Economics at Memorial, the Wornen 1 s Policy Office . Do you want me to go on and on, Your Honour?

Who have they consulted with? AN HON. MEMBER: All the councils . MR . FUREY: With whom have they consulted? MS DUFF: (Inaudible) . MR . FLIGHT : Yes. MR . FUREY : That is right. And they are going back and consulting tAJith a grPat plethora of individuaJ.s. MS DUFF: (Inaudible) . MR. FUREY : I am answering the question. rhE! hon. the Member for St.. John 1 s East may not like th1::'! answer . If she does not, she can 1E!aVE!. But her Leader askE!d the question and I arn giving the anslAJer. Who have they consulted with in three short months? A great many people a11 over Newfoundland and Labr·ador, Mr.

Spr:~a k er , with their heads he J.d high, not stuck in thE• sand like the previous Government had done. No. 49 1\30

MS DUFF: (Inaudible). MR. FUREY: Sure. No problem . So, I think that addresses consultation. There have literally been hundreds of groups that the various Commissioners have talked with, consulted with, . spoken with and dialogued with right across this Province, in every single part of the Province, Mr. Speaker. Now, the last point I can draw from the very vacuous debate coming from the opposite side, the last poin-t I could pull from that vacuum of words, was - MR. EFFORD: Is that all the Leader said over there? MR. FUREY: The putative Leader. I do not know if anybody else on the other side has spoken.

There is supposed to have been a revolution between the · E!ars, not a vacuum between the ears, but not much has come. His fourth point was, tJ..Jill there be annual reports? Wi11 this Commission report to the Premier and to the Cabinet and to the people through this Legislature? Now, if they had read the Bill, had taken time at all to look, they would see that there is a clause thE!re, near the end of the Bi11, I be1ieve - I have not read it for a while - but near the end of the Bill, I think there is a reporting provision. Here it is, Clause 18.

Clause 18 says, 1 The Chairperson shall, within three months after the end of each fiscal year, submit to the Premier a report on the activities of the L31 December 7, 1989 Vol XU Commission for that fisca1 year, including thE! financial statements of the Cornmis sion and thE! Audi tot~ General 1 s Report on them. 1 Subsection (2) of C1ause 18 says, 1The Premier shall present the report and statement submitted under Subsection 1 to the Assembly within thirty days after receiving them. 1 Now, that is a pretty simple, straightforward answer.

Unlike the previous Gover·nrnE:~nt:, when they hired Peter Lougheed and company to advise the Government - I believe somebody on our side, in the Opposition of thE! day, asked the question, Will there be reports? Premier Peckford, dutning that time said there would be quarterly reports on the progress of Mr. Lougheed 1 s advice to l:h1:! Government because the ordinary what was the expression for lawyers of the day by the Minister of Finance? AN HON. MEMBER: Garden variety . MR. FUREY : The garden variety lawyers in Newfoundland could not attend to offshore business and advise. So, he asked u1ould WE! rE:~port?

Yes, we wou1d report. Not only will we say we will report, we are enshrining it in legislation, in law to ensure that we report, unlike the previou s GovernHlE!nt:. Now, the hon. thE! Minister of Social Services can correct me. How many reports did we receive from Mr. Lougheed 1s Firm u1htch spent over $400,000 of Newfoundland taxpayers 1 dollars over a period of three year s, which would have been - what? twelve quarters . MR. EFFORD : No. 4-9 1n1

Twelve quarters . MR. FUREY: 'we were""""-supposed to get quarterly reports. How many did you see? MR. EFFORD: Not one. MR. FUREY: Not one. I did not see .any either. There was not one quarterly report from Mr. Lougheed and company for that expenditure of taxpayers• money. Now, Mr. Speaker, I guess I addresSE!d the points that carne from the other side. I could only write down thrE!e, becalJSe that is all I could pull out of the arguments that were being brought forward.

But, the real truth of the matter is, for any Member, especially the Member for Humber Valley, who should be leading the charge on that side, given his speech the other day that we are on the right track, anyone who wants to examine the heart ·of this Bill can examine it in Clause 7, which is the purposes of the Commission. Now, Mr. Speaker, can anybody on that side be against Clause 7 (a)? - to identify and implement programs and other measures that will contribute to the continuing and stable reduction in the chronically high unemployment rate in the Province. Is anybody on that side against that?

Because if they are, they should stand up in debate and tell us that they are against us putting in place a team of competerit, bright Newfoundlanders and Labradorians to help us battle a deeply disturbing high unemployment rate in this Province. I do not l:hink anybody on the other side, at least anybody in their right mind, L32 December 7, 1989 Uo1 XLI would stand to be against that . IF you read through Clause 7 (

a) and (b), and subsections (

a) to (1) in Clause 8 of l:his Bill, who can be against those things, as well, which are really saying that we want this Commission to harness all of the wealth of opportunities that arE! out there, to catalogue and identify opportunities for Newfoundlanders and Labradorians all over the Province? Not just catalogue and identify these opportunities, Mr. Speaker, bul:. to make them known to the pE!Ople, to show the people what is available out there. Secondly, Mr.

Speaker, thE!ftn mandate is to harness all the financial opp6rtunities that are there For businesses which are curr~ntly in operation and want to expand and create new jobs, and people who want to start nE!W businesses. There are so many programs, FBDB, ACOA that has a shotgun program all over the place, NLDC, support through rutna] developement authorities for businesses. What we arE! saying is it is time to streamline l:hE!Se financial activities and to make them more athletic and responsive to the needs of the peopJ.e out there, particularly in rural Newfoundland.

We want to harnE!SS all of that together, decentralize it, and deliver it to the regions. Mr. Speaker, t.uho can be against that? That is the fundamental principle of the Bill. Mr. Speaker, in

summary, l:.his J.egislation is enabling legislation to enable us, thr-ough law, through this Parliament to allow this Commission to go out there into the field and do its work . Mr. Speak~::'r, iF l:hose Commissioners werE! good enough to identiFy the problem For the No . Ll-9 R32

previous Government, they are good enough to this Government to solve the probh1m and help us solve ·it. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han . the Member for Humber East. MS VERGE: Thank you, Mr . Speaker . I would agree with . the Minister of Development and my colleague, thE! Member for Humber Valley, in saying that the purposes for the Economic Recovery Commission set out in this Bill are good purposes. They are goals that we can all support. However, Mr. Speaker, I find serious fault LAiith the model proposed, the vehicle proposed for achieving those ends.

The Economic Recovery Commission is set up in such a way as to aggravate duplication of Provincial and Federal Government agencies trying to foster the economy. It is set up in such a way as to confuse the public as well as to demoralize the permanent Public Service. The Economic Recovery Commission mandate is essentially the thrust of what had been the purpose of the Department of Development, which the Minister presides OVI;!r. And, finally, Mr.

Speaker, the model set out in this Bill for the Economic Recovery Comrrltssion does not provide an acceptable level of accountability of the Commission, to which such important powers are given, to the pE!Ople of the Province through the Cabinet, or through the Legislature . Mr. Speaker, by addressing this agency, I would like to start brir:1fly the name of Economic Recovery L33 DecE•rnber 7, 1989 Vol.XLI Commission. That name connotes that at onE! tirnr:1 in the• past this Province had an economy t.hat. LAJas healthy and robust, and that we deteriorated, became sick and that, Mr.

Speaker, no1JJ JJJe are in need of healing and recovery. Mr. SpE!akE!r, any obje!ctivr:1 re•view of our economic history wi.ll show that our Plnovince has never had a healthy economy. One milestone is April 1, 194-9. WhE!n LAJe I:JE!CamE! a part of Canada, when we joined the Canadian ConfE!deration, at t:hat. time hopes were elevated, there were expressions of wonderful optimism about what our joining Canada would do in terms of improving our economy and uplifting the standard of living of the people of the Province. The resul t.s, Mr. Speaker, I thi.nk we would all agree, have be1:'n most disappointing.

At that. point of ou1n E!ntry tnto Confederation, there were huge discrepancies betweE•n OUI" E!conorny, bE! tween the per capita ~:!arned income within Newfoundland and Labrador and that econo1nic mr:'dsure for the rest of Canada. There WE!re huge discrepancies bE!"l:IAJeen the standard of living of poople here and of people elsewhere in Canada. Over the years sincE:', Ml". Speaker, over l:he fo1nty Yl':!ars since, those gaps really have not been closed.

There has b1':!E!n an overall improvement in the economy of Canada and in l:he standard of Living of citizens of Canada, but the relative position of Newf ou ndlande rs and L.abrr.H~orian s has not improved significdnl:1y. The high hopes of JoSE!ph R. Smallwood and others who touted Confederation with Canada, rea11y have never been realized. Mr. had Speaker, various approaches been tried by the Liberal No. 49 R33

Government headed by Smallwood, and by the three PC Administrations. Over the· last couple of years of PC Government there were some improvements, and I would refe!r Members to the economic statistics printed at the beginning of the present Government's Budget Estimates, this docume!nt bound in red that I hold before you. Those statistics compared the economic performance of the Province in 1987 with 1988, and showed that there were strides made.

The statistics include a 6 . 9 per cent growth in the Gross Domestic Product of the Province, a 7. 9 per cent increase in total personal income, a 7.9 per cent growth in per capita personal income, an 8. 4 per cent drop in the unemployment rate, an 18 .1 per cent increase in dwelling starts, an 11 pE!r cent increase in retail trade, and a 13. 8 per cent increase in sales of new motor vehicles. Mr. Speaker, it will be interesting to look at the comparable statement of statistics for the difference in the economic performance in this Province between 1988 and 1989 or between 1989 and 1990.

It will be interesting for us, a year from now or two years from now, to compare the performance of the Province's economy under the present Liberal Administration with what happened in the last couple of years of P.C. Government. Mr. Speaker, the point I am trying to make is that economic advances are a matter of evolution. And it is not apt to us 1:! the wor·d 'rE!COVery' in thE! title of this agency. which seems to be the new Government's primary vehicle for advancing our economy. AN HON. MEMBER: L34 DE!Cembe!r 7, 1989 VQl XLI There is nothing wrong with (inaudible) . MS VERGE : Mr.

Speaker, if thE!rl?. is any truth at all to the notion that once we• were healthy then we got sick and now the Liberal GovernmE!nt, unde1n the great healer Clyde K. Wells who is going to restore us to full health, then, Mr. Speaker, it has to be acknowledged that in the seven months that the new Government has beE!n in off.ice the sickness has been seriously aggravated.

I recite the gloom of the E RCO closure at Long Harbour with a loss of some .11.00 jobs, . of" the scale-down in operations of the Marystown shipyard with several hundred layoFfs, l:he announcement made by the Premier in the House last weE!k that Abit.ibi-Plnice arE! closing a papeJ" machine at the Grand Falls mill and laying off 250 fuJl timE! mi]1 workers. And, Mr . Speaker, I refer to the revelations day by day that our fishery is going to have to be dolAmsized significant1y tAlith a loss of jobs est.irnatE!d at S-6 thousand. I do not take any joy in rE!CiU.ng those statistics, Mr .

Speaker, and I can tell Members opposite that last week when the Premier announced the Abitibi -Price decision to close th0 paper machine at Grand Fa11s, I tAJclS very, very sad. I rernernber hotAJ I felt when Bowater in CornE!r Brook announced its decision l~o shut number 7 paper machine, and I remember how I felt. when BotJJa l:.er announced that it was gEd:t:i.ng out of Corner B1"ook alto,.:Jether and there was no prospect of any successor . And the citizens of Corner Brook had to dE!al wtt:.h the possibility that the largest employer in western Newfoundland lAJould shut: for good. But No. .119 R3.11

thankfully, Mr. Speaker, that did not come to pass, and with the intervention and agressive leadership of the P. c. Government headed by Prc:1mier Peckford, we were able to attract Kruger to invest in the mill and to carry out a $250 million modernization program. Mr. Speaker, I will go on to comment on the administrative structure for the Commission that is pr·ovided for in this Bill. I have a).ready made the point t:hat in my view the name is inappropriate. The whole notion that there needs to be an economic recovery or that there can be an economic recovery is false.

There needs to be economic improvement, there needs to be economic growth, there needs to be evolutionary improvement. I made the points that the structure accentuates the already present duplication of Provincial and Federal Government agencies, departments and programs that are supposed to be improving our economy. The Minister of Development made the same point, except he indicated that this Bill is going to lead to streamlining. I would suggest that it has the opposite effect, Mr. Spea'ker. The Economic Recovery ComiTiission duplicates most of the original mandate of the Department of Development.

The Economic Recovery Commission duplicates the role of the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation. NLDC is set up as a financing agency to foster business investments and growth in our Province. Strangely enough the power given to the Economic Recovery Commission in this Bill include the ability to lend money. and to grant money. Now why. Mr. Speaker, would the Economic RecoVE!ry Commission bE:1 given this kind of a direct delivery purpose L3S December 7, 1989 Vol XLI when there is already the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation of the Provincial Government?

The Minister of Development mentioned the World Development Authority which is another Provincial Government agency that is now a part of his Department, and I suggest that is about all he has left of the original Department of Development. And then there are Federal Agencies that he referr,;:!d to, ACOA, and FBDB. What I cannot unders.tand. Mr. Speaker, is why the Prelllier and the Government did not combine the goals and purposes and powE:!rs that through this Bil1 it is attempting to give a brand new agency. Why it did not combine all of that and give it to ~he already existing Department of Development.

Why did not the Government attempt to invigorate and make more athletic, to use l:he word of the Minister of Development, the alr,;:!ady existing Department of Development? So, · Mr . Speaker, this Economic Recovery Commission Structure set out in the Bill is going to add to thE! duplication. My second point, Mr. Speaker, is that it is going to lead to confusion . The public already has a hard time working their way through the maze of Government agencies that are supposed to be giving advice and giving financial assistance to simulate bu siness activity, well this is just another part of a maze.

A third point, Mr . SpeakE!r, is that the Economic Recovery Commission, the way it is being set up is going to have a demoralizing effect on the permanent public service . How must the Deputy Minister of No. 4-9 R35

Development and the ADMs in the Department of DE!Velopment and the Directors in the Department of Development feel watching the Government basically ignore them, snub thC::HTl, and give the important part of their mandate to another agency. It must be terribly demoralizing, Mr. Speaker. And a fourth point. Mr. Speaker. is that this structure does not provide For an acceptable degree of accountability. And the lines of accountability - MR. SPEAKER (Mr. L. Snow): Order, please! I have to interrupt the han. Member for a moment.

It is 4:00 o 1 clock on Thursday afternoon and I want to announce the questions for the Late Show . Question No. 1 is directed to the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations. I wish to give notice of my dissatisfac tion with the answers provided to my question re the employment programs regarding UI. And it is the hon. the Member for Harbour Main. Question No. 2 is dire"cted to the Premier. I am not satisfied with the answer received on my request to the layoffs of the Canadian Airlines and the disruption of the airline service. And it is the hon. the Member for Torngat Mountains.

And Question No. 3, I am not satisFied with the answer From the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation on the Petit forte Road . I would like to ask it on the Late Show and that is the hon . the Member for Burin - Placentia West. The han. the Member for Humber L36 DecembE!r 7. 1989 Vol XLI East. MS VERGE : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . This Bill sets up lines of authority and mechanisms for accountability that arE• not cJ.E!ar and are, as I said beFore. insufficient. The BiLl. says that the Commission shall report. to l':he Premier. Further OVE!r'. Mr.

Speaker, the bill provides For the Cabinet appointing an Econom ic Recovery Advisory Board. But it does, not E!Xplain what connE•cti .on. if any, the Board is support to have to the Commission. Then. Mr. Speaker. the bill says that the Board shall provide advice to the Government and to the Commission, but it does not specify what Minister the Board should address its adviCE! to. And then surprisingly. Mr. SpE!akE !r. after having provided for Lhe Commission reporting to the PrE!Tnier the bill gOE!S on to say that each year the Cornrn:issoion shaJ.J. submit its Budget to the Minister of Development. I predict.

Mr. SpE!aker. that these confusing provisions for relationships among the Commission, the Advisory Board, the Premier, the Minister of Development and l:he Deparl:lllent of DevelopmE!nt arE! going to J.eclcl to confusion, to a morale problem on the part of thE! pE•InrnarlE'nt publ:i.c service, and ultimately to insufficient accountability to thE! public for the considerable l:rus t and investment of public funds that is being put into the Commission. Mr. Speaker, disappoint'.ing structure of although it No . 4-9 is one of aspects Ud.s not the rnost. of l:.hE ! Com1nission, specifically R36

provided for in the act, perhaps it is by inference, is that the Commission has wiped out the Board of Directors of Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation. The Bill does not dissolve the Development Corporation. The Development Corporation legislation is still on our books. · So there continues to be a separate crown corporation called Newfoundland and L~brador Development Corporation. However, Mr. Speaker, the Economic Recovery Bi1l we a1ne now considering says that the Commission s ha 11 now direct the activities of the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation.

Before this Bill was tabled in the House last week, the Government disbanded the Board of Directors of Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation. Mr. Speaker, I thought from what has been said by Members on bo ·th sides that we all agree that we cannot waste any talent, we cannot spare any effort to improve the economy of our Province. Mr. Speaker, Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation, of all the agencies of the Government trying to help the Newfoundland and Labrador economy was notably successful.

I think if any of us were to ask any fair minded and well informed business person in our Province we would get that kind of comrnE!ntary on the output of Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation. Mr. Speaker, the Board of Directors of that Corporation comprise experienced business people. Business people with proven records of success, business people who volunteered to serve on that Board and guided the policies and programs of the L37 DeCE!mber 7, 1989 Vol XLI Development Corporation. Mr.

Speaker, what I cannot understand quite frankly and what I am quite disappointed in is that the Government shoved these pE·ople aside. Not only did the Government disband that Board of experienced and accomplished business people, but it did not substitute for them anyone with comparabJ.e experience or talent. What has been substituted is the Recovery Commission. And that leads me, Mr. Sp"1aker, to th'?. composition of the Commission. The Commission is headed by Dr. Doug House and includE•s othe1 ns with a similar background. Now, Mr. Speaker, Dr.

House and the others main claim to fame is in the halls of the university, in the academic world. He is a sociologist, and . a couple of the other members of the Commission are also sociologists. Dr. House and Wayne Humphries, and I bE·] i.eVE! a couple of others now on the Commission were involved in the Royal Commission on Employment and Unemployment, which was much maligned by the LibE!rals whE!n it was announced back in the:' wi.nt.E!In of 1985, but which I think protJ,~d to M~;:~rnbers of a11 Parties in thE! Province that it tAJas a worthtAihi le exercise. The point I a1n ·making, Mr.

Speaker, is that the contr·ibu tion that Dr. Doug House and Wayne Humphries had to make t~o econornic improvement in our Province, thE!Y made through their work on the Royal Commission. Their contribution is documented in their Report. Now, Mr. Speaker, I would really question their capabilities and that of the othE!r members of lhe Commission to actually implement No. 49 R37

the worthy recommendations of the Report. Mr. Speaker, none of them have hands-on business experience. AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible). MS VERGE : Yes, the Government in the face of that reality disbanded the Board of Directors of Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation Mr. Speaker, before I close I wo u 1 d 1 i k e to repeat a pre d i c t ion that I made last spring and that was quoted in the St. John's Evening Telegram. My prediction, Mr .

Speaker, is that one of the measures for improving our economy, that the new Government and the Economic Recovery Commission will make in the coming months, will be a reinstatement of the Private Sector Employment Program with some fine-tuning and a new name, and with much ado about Liberal innovation. Mr. Speaker, the Private Sector Employment Program, which was praised by the Royal Commission on Employment and Unemployment, was administered by the PC Government for the last two years, and in my experience it was the best Government employment generation program.

It was well received by the private sector, and justifying the Government's decision to drop it, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Employment said that it was riddled with patronage. That was untrue and has never been substantiated. Yesterday, the Premier dropped that excuse but gave a new OnE!, namely that one business person in Humber East said it was unnecessary. Mr.

Speaker, it may well be that some of the businesses that benefitted did no·t need it but the answer is surely L38 December 7, 1989 Vol XLI to find-tune the program, to change the -criteria but to continue to operate it, because from what I saw the vast majority of businesses who participatE!d, who after all had to contribute at least as much Funding as the Governm(~nt pl~ovided in thE! way of wage subsidies, really did do new things and add new jobs thanks to that progr·am. Mr.

Speaker, my final comrnE•nt JAJ:il:l be, that because of the misguided approach of the Government in even talking about recovery, because of the Premier's proclamation that recovery and nirvana can be achieved in seven to ten years, because of the flaws in the administrative structure of this agency, because it aggraval:E!S the present duplication, bE!CaUSE! it is having a demoralizing effect on the permanent public service, because it is not designed to be properly accountable, Mr.

Speaker. this Economic Recovery Cornrnissi .on, the acronym of which is EI~C. wiJ.] provide new reasons, over the years, for CJ.yde's IRK, r .. -R- .. ·K, as performed by Rick Boland in Review 89 to act up. Thank you, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for LaPoile . MR. RAMSAY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I rise today to speak in suppoi~'l:: of Bill No. 4-0, the Bill lJJhich will undertake to legislate the Economic Recovery Commission into existence .

I cannot stand wi t.hout having to try to, as we often hear, to put straight some of th E! statements made by Members opposite which have no basis in reality whatsoever. They are misleading, thE!Y arE! vo1~y No. 4-9 1na

selective in their choices as to what they want to talk about, and how they want to put it. Granted, I suppose, if one would say that often enough people would believe it. The Members opposite managed to be elected several times on the basis of offering the public large projects which did not have a real basis in reality on the information that they even had . It was hypocrisy, it was a definite desire to be re-elected and then say, oops, we did not have an agreement, these are the things.

It is the same thing when we are bringing in a Bl.ll on the Economic Recovery Commission which will put in place the majority of the recommendations, I would say, according, of course, the fact that the report of the Royal Commission on Employment and Unemployment was begun in 1985 and we now have a case where here we are, four years later, soon to be five years later, implementing some of these recommendations. The time span has changed and therefore some of the recommendations, I am sure, in today 1 s business atmosphere will change. Some of the things that the hon.

Member said, first and foremost be careful not to assess blame on them for the past performance of their Government. Well, I think, we can look at our seating positions here in thl.s Chamber and see that maybe not necessarily blame, but there is a realization of why we are here and Members opposite are sitting where they are. There are several things that we look at in economic development today, and Port aux Basques, I often use it as an example, because Port aux Basques Mr. Speaker, about ten years ago, started to lose jobs.

We started to be, possibly, a case in point that the rest of the Province can look at if we arE! successful in L39 December 7, 1989 Uol XLI getting a lot of the opportunities we hope to create there in the while. employrnE!nt to be able next little Well, I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that the Province could certainly look to the other end of the Province to get rid of this overpass syndrome, which I am sure we all know, exists.

It has existed in the past and possibly the political reality of it is that it may continUE! to ex is l:. in some form in the future because of the central aspect of the Avalon Peninsula holding the majority of the general urban population of the Province. If you look to the othE!r end of the Province, the Port aux Basques area, you have the cJ.oSE!St place in the Province l:o l:hE ! Nor·th Arrll':~rican market. So, arE! WE!, by virtue of having the capit .a1 city on this end of the ProvincE!, close to Europe.

The reason it IAJas established in the first place, was its proximity to the Old Country, whE!re rnost of ouJ~ forefathers came from. We could look out to Port aux Basques and say, alright, WC:! are going to change things now. We aJ~e going to start creating soma new industry, because the other industries have left.

We had the thing in Grand Falls recently. and I am surE! thE!Y could certainly take a lesson frorn the people who have learned the hard way to try to manage to hold t.he population together, a population that has possibly only been held together because of the unemployment insur·ance sys tE:'rn dnd some of the programs that were implemented by the Provincial Government. Now, you give credit where credit. is due. If it puts money into the economy, then fine. No . 4-9 1n9

but if it is ever manipulated, things like the Private Sector Employment Program, which were abused, and I have no do~bt in saying they were abused, Mr. Speaker. And I can identify cases, if hon . MernbE!rS opposite would like to see them, of this par·ticular abuse. I will, in future, bring that to this Chamber. MS DUFF: Do you have any of them there? MR. RAMSAY: No, nq, I do not have them- right here now, but we are working on them, Mr. Speaker. And these things were abused. And you say we should keep it going as is. Well, that is what got us where we are now, Mr. Speaker.

We k.eep going as is, and we keep using these programs and doing things as they are. MS DUFF : Doug House thought they were great . MR. RAMSAY: Doug House did not necessarily think they were great. I am sure he did not think anything was beyond improvement, which is what it seems you say, 'Oh, it needs a little bit of polishing here:~ and there.' WE!ll, fine, let us go back to the drawing board and see if we can do this right, as opposed to continuing to do it wrong and still trying to analyze why we are doing it wrong.

Let us take it apart, SE!e what is going on with it and then try to figure out how to do it right, and then we will do it right, Mr. Speaker. Is Newfoundland the neophyte, I suppose you could say, when it comes to the world market? Here we are, a small Province with a population possibly smaller than the size of most North American LlJ.O December '7, 1989 Vol XLI cities, and we are going to try to compete in the world market, tJ.ri.th all of the problems associated with our geography. How can we do that? Well, it is not going to be easy .

It .is not going to just happen because Government Governments change regularly eVE!Jny four years. If the Administration does not change, some of the individuals changE!, DepartmE!n-t heads change, policies and directions change. MS VERGE: It will change in the next four . MR. RAMSAY: It will not be changing time. Some people may There will be more over would say. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! AN HON . MEMBER: 1:11~:! nc:~xt change. here, I We need a quorum call, Mr. Speaker . Quorum MR. SPEAKER : We have a quorum. The han. thE! ME!mber for LaPoilE• . MR. RAMSAY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

To c o n t i n u e , a Few t h :i n g s l: h a t. I was having to say concerned the previous policies of the previous Government who were content to study the problems as they apply to employment and unemployment, Mr. Speaker. Well, we are not content just to sit back and study. We are planning and we will, through the Economic Recovery Commission, implt'm!O:~nt, and that is the key word, we are No. 49 RlJ.O

active. We are not going to just sit back and passively study something and say, 1 Well, there is the problem. 1 And I am sure some Members opposite will say, 1 Well, we did introduce some of the recommendations of the Commission. 1 That is fine, but in general the overall approach was a band-aid approach, as I am sure we have often heard here. What would we think of our Province of Newfoundland and Labrador without any change?

Can you imagine now that . tAle just studied it, put it on the shelf and said, 1 Now in the future let us look and see what we have managed to do without any implementation, without any action. 1 Without that, Mr. Speaker, I would say that Newfoundland and Labrador 1 s population would be quite a bit less than than 550,000 or whatever it is now. How many of us would be here in a nu