PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSE!v1BLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00p.m. - 6:00p.m. TUESDAY, APRIL 19, 1977 ._

April 19, 1977 Tape 1645 PK - 1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! ._ STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. HON. F. D. MOORES: Mr .. Speaker, in consultation with the Acting Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation as well as the Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation,I wish to make a statement -regarding the immediate and the long-term situation at Exon House.

First o( all~I would like to point out that a lot of work was done over the weekend by the Acting Minister to take this unfor~unate situation- a situation that has blown now into unfortunate proportions. - ana the fact that he did do a great deal of work on it over the weekend is to-his credit for I think he was anxious to find out all the facts that ·_were involved in the various allegations. The Acting Minister, the Deputy Minister of Rehabilitation and myself this morning met with the President of the Nurses Association, the Secretary of the Nurses Association as well as Dr. Norah Browne from Exon House.

I think it is fair to say that that meeting was ...... worth-while and meaningful, and I felt it was, and I think the various people who were there felt it was as well. The fact is, Mr. Speaker, that complain~ts rec-eived from individual nurses and the Association were in fact sent to various government officials as long ago as last November. And in this regard I would like to clarify the business of any thought or any doubt whatsoever tnat the remay- have- been regarding the credibility of individual nurses or· the nurses 1 organization.

They not only submitted complaints but in my view and in our view acted very responsibly in' not doing battle,_ so to speak,in the media because they did not wish their complaints to be taken out of context;nor to cast any aspersions on Exon House generally itself. What is upsetting to government is that these complaints were never brought to ministerial attention,and this applies to the Acting Minister and to the Minister himself. At the time there was a

Apri1 19, 1977 Tape 1645 PK - 2 Premier Moores: vacuum in personne~_at Exon House,with an administrator and a director of nursing to be appointed. Howevet,even though this ._ tvas the case it is obvious that there was a breakdown of communication between Ex.on House and the department, and possibly within the department itself.

PREMIER MOORES: With the consultation that I have had since that meeting this morning on the phone with minister.,and together with the Acting Minister,we have instructed the Deputy Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation to carry out a thorough investigati .on into exactly what happened and ~ho was at fault, and I have further instructed him to bring in reccnnmendations to correct any similar situation in the future. Mr.

Speaker, this present flair of publicity should not, and I repeat, Sir, should not in any way be taken to mean that there has not been significant progress made at Exo.n House over the years. --

April 19, 1977 Tape No. 1646 NM- 1 PREMIER MOOP~S: rhe fact is that Exon House in its treatment of retarded children has made considerable progress. The fact ·- is, Sir, that generally speaking. I would say that Exon House now has the best staff it has ever had. I would also say, Sir, that Exon House has made more progress towards its end objective than ~ve have experienced in the field of retardation in the Province before.

I would also like to say, Sir, that this in no way casts aspersions or. a very dedicated staff of people and I am talking as well as the nurses, to the therapists, to the technicians, the psychologists, and the others· who make that institution the place it is. The fact is, Sir, that the institution has progressed from a hospital type institution to a training fac.ility; at..d the parents with children there can rest at ease at least in the context that it is the best. Right now their children are getting the best attention possible.

I think, Sir, the understanding of the situation at Exon House is·..:-or in that matter in the field of retardation is not always easy. But I know, -speaking as a layman, the problem, I suppose the biggest problem with retardation is the ignorance of the problem itself and the understanding of how to treat it. The fact is, Sir, that all of us are human, all of us want to do the right thing; not always,! suggest as laymen,do we know the proper method of going about it. The fact is, Sir, I felt for a long while,and I know other people in this House as well, have a genuine dedication to rehabilitation itself. And.

I know as far as I am concerned there has been a lot of criticism for having a Department of Rehabilitation. But the very 0 reason that that department -.:vas established and the reason it is still there is because I feel by its being there it will have a better opportunity for identification and for participation in government programmes that will allow it to do the job that it was set up for.

April 19, 1977 Tape No. 1646 NM- 2 PRE¥IER MOORES : Sir, we do not want a good institution for the retarded in this Province. If it is at all possible ~ve want, and we intend to get,the very best institution for the retarded in this Province. This announcement I am making today is in fact in two parts. And I do not want the second _part to be misconstr~~~ ;_to be in any way connected with the first pa~t of the announcement. In other words,the first is investigative- in-house,internal,investigative-as to why there was a breakdo~·nrr of communications, and recommendations to deal ~vith that.

Secondly, in the end analysis it is much more i~ortant that we have Exon House,as I say,to be the best institution of its kind in Canada. Towards this end I have today . contacted Dr. Allan __ ~ehe~~ - ~he Director of the Canadian Association for the Mentally Retarded, who together with the National Institute of -the Mental Retardation at York University in Toronto .' I have contacted them and they have agr~ed that _ within the next few weeks to send a team to assess the performance at Exon House as an institution and give us their advice on what needs to be done to make it even better in the future.

They will review personal performances, programming I suppose or the lack of it, drug dispensing,supe~vision, training, behaviour,staffing, the physical plant itself. In other words, Sir, all aspects of the institution. And more importantly,they will be establishing the philosophy that has to be accepted and adopted to put Exon House into the area of excellence that we all want it to be in. In other words, Sir, everything is being done for the future benefit of the institution and it is gover nment's intention to do the job that needs to be done when that report is received.

But, Sir, in the meantime I would like once again to publicly apologize to the Nurse~ Association and certainly any embarrassment regarding their credibility to ensure that it was not intentional but was a breakdown of communications between -. .-

April 19, 1977 Tape o. 1646 NM - 3 PREMIER MOORES : Exon House and various departmental officials and an investigation is being carried out in that regard and also to assure all me~ers of the public that it is our intention to have Exon House the best institution of its kind in Canada. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, I listen~d as did all members of ~the House with~ the greatest of interest to the Premier's statement I which dealt with two. separate points,as I understood it,and with the common link being the attitude . or the policy of the administration with respect to this question of training handicapped children and the- h~dicap )n- this sense was a mental handicap, a degree of retardation.

April 19 , 19 77 Tape 1647 AH-1 HR. ROBERTS: Let me say first of all, Mr. Speaker, that the Premier speaks for everybody in this House and for everybody in Newfoundland and Labrador when he says that it ·. is a cardinal point of public policy to provide the best services we can for handicapped children,particularly in this conte~t for children with a degree of mental retardation. This has' long been a cardinal principle of public policy. It is a principle which has been implemented only in part.

There are very real financial contraints ~ these are very expensive services to provide and to maintain,but I do not think anybody in this Province would in any way criticize any effort by the government to improve them,to extend them and to expand them. And without going into it in detail, I think the Premier is as aware as I am that there are still very . - -- - g~e~t_ nee~s_that __ Exon_House, which was a project conceived by the previous administration ,- indeed ,, I think it began while-I was· minister and when the gentleman from LaPoile was .

"the Minister of Public \.J'elfare the project came to fruition and- MR. NEARY: We opened it up as a training institution MR. ROBERTS: Exon House ~o1as acquired from the Anglican Diocese, as it then was,of Newfoundland and it was acauired for the purposes of providing a training institution. There will be an epportunity to debate it and I hope we will get the estimates of the Rehabilitation and Recreation Department called so that we can debate the whole issue of Exon Rouse and the way it is being handled. Mr. Speaker,the two particular points that the Premier makes do not require a great deal of comment.

I am very pleased that the government thro~gh the agency of the Premier, have been in touch with these leading authorities in this field and have asked them to make a study. I would hope very much that the

April 19,1977 Tape 1647 AH-2 MR. ROBERTS: study will be made public so that we will all not just in the House, but all of us in the Province-will be aware of ~-1hat has been recotnmended, of the lines of development that should be follm-1ed. I think that this would contribute very much to the public debate,and I think as the Premier will agree that there is a ,great deal of interest among people. There are - I do not know how many children there are in Newfoundland with a degree of retardation.

I am told that three out of every one hundred births in the statistics - the Minister of Tourism,who has spent some time as ministerand e~volved in it, nods acquiescence .I think that is the genera~ly - - accepted figure,three out of one hundred births. Well that ' being so - out _of th~ 560,0~0 Newfo~dlanders we are talking of -about 20,000 people in this Province who have a degree of mental retardation. And the degrees can vary all the way from a very slight handicap to a very large one. So we are talking of a lot of people ,_Sir.

We are talking of a lot of children and each of us in his own district ,in his own district work,has run ·across situations where homes are crippled because of handicapped children in the homes, and at the same time homes where courage and devotion to children is shown on a scale that few other Parents, parents not exposed to this particular handicap,can appreciate. Mr. Speaker, though I cannot help but wonder what the Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation, what the Department of Rehabilitation and Recreation have been doing for the last two or three years with respect to Exon Fouse.

The Premier, and I think I have his words~said that these people from the Mainland, these experts-and go~d people they are-are being brought into Newfoundland to review the prograntrPe and to establish the standards. I think I am quoting the Premier's words but I :

April 19,1977 Tape 1647 AH-3 MR.. ROBERTS : know I am reproducing his thought. Well, I mean this is surely what the minister ought to be doing MR. NEA..'tY: Dr. Stanley did it back in 1q71L _ MR. ROBERTS: J.:.Jell, my friend from LaPoile says there were studies made earlier on. You know,we have all been under the understanding , Sir, that the administration,as represented in the House by the minister,had a policy with respect to the use of Exon House its role as part of a spectrum and it is only one part , ~~r. S-peaker, of a wide spectrum of services. MR. NOLAN: Why _ a Department of Rehabilitation? MR.

ROBERTS : Well,my friend from Conception Bay South says why have a department. Well we have had a department and apparently it has done very little in one of the central areas it ought to have been putting some attention and some thought into. That , Sir, is certainly a point which ought to be pursued and it will be if ever we are allowed to debate the estimates of that department. It is also unfortunate, Sir, and I think the Premier will agree,that the whole incident came to this.

It is unfortunate when the Premier of the Province had to apologize publically to a group as responsible and as important as the Association of Registered Nurses of Newfoundland, the ARNN. The Premier did this because it was the proper thing to do, but it is unfortunate that it came to this. I knew no more about it than was published in the -newspapers.But it was obvious

Anril 19, 1977 Tape 1648 IB-1 ~fP.. ROBE"PTS: that the memorandum in question,or the memoranda if there was more than one ,~rere given by soynebody Fho had access to them. I <1o not think it ~vas the ARNl-~. I understand they have clenied this. That settles that. But obviously given bv so!'lebody "mo harl access to them to the ne"rspapers,obviously out of a sense of frustration. It is obvious that that was a necessa ~I__ . act the way things have worked out because othe~vise apparently this situation could have gone on. So I would ask the Premier, when he "b.as a report from the deputy minister invob1ed., ~·rr.

Pyke, _I believe, if he ~•ill undertake either to make a statement or to make the report public because it is obvious, Sir, there is something very ~..rrong in the department r.·1hen conditions ""7 not only ... -nen conditions such as these 'i7en t on - and it is obvious, Sir, there was something that was not proper going on. That is obvious or there would not have been an investigation or there would not have been a need to send for people from Ontario, nationally recognized experts, to come.

Sir, not only are these going on, not only have they gotten so bad that the nurses in auestion felt compelled to 'irrite a memoranda, not just to mention it or to raise it in a meeting in an oral form but to put it in writing, but, Sir, that memoranda was submitted and apparently disappeared. Ohviously it never got into the hands of the deputy minister or the people here at Confederation Building. Sir, that is a serious matter because it raises very grave questions about the whole administration of that department.

So while I think the Premier has done the right thing and "mile I am glad he has acted so quickly - he only ~ot back in the Province yesterday afternoon and he has acted and I believe has done the correct thing·~ I cl.o think think, Sir, there are these two further questions; Just 'i!hat has the depart!!'ent been cloin? in the 1ast three or fouT. years that nm.7 thev have to look for <1. policy,ano secondly, 1'r. Spe2.ker, ··~at h.appened in that department and what assurances do we h<=~.ve that :it will not happen again or is not happening now.

Because nothing will destroy the a~ministration- and I oo not !'lean with a capital 'a', I mean the ongoing process of running the government of this Province -

April 19, 1977 Tape 1648 IB-2 P:r'. ROBF'PTS: nothing will destroy it quicker than the thought that somehow officials are not communicating frankly and openly one with the other. It is obYious that in this case somebody somer..1here for whatever reasons,. negligence, bad intent, whatever reasons, somebody somewhere sat on a memorandum, pigeonholed it, delayed it~ put it to one side. If it had not been for the decision to make it public by the somewhat unusual means of the front page of the Daily News, then the matter might never have come to the attention of the Premier or the ministers res~onsible.

T/ell, Sir, I am sure- the Prerrder is as concerned as I am about that. I am sure that every member of the House is concerned and I believe every member of the public of . this Province would be concerned. I would hope, Sir, that when the report is received from the deputy minister,which ~hould be a very quick matter, that it will be made public and that we can then take whatever steps are appropriate.

So let me conclude by saying that I welcome the Premier's reaffirmation of the commitment of the administration and I would hope and I assume that \-7hen the estimates are tabled we will see the reaffirmation reaffirmed in a concrete way with an increased vote for the provision of these services. Sm"E HON. ~}'BEPS: Hear, hear! MR.. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: ~r. Speaker, just one point of clarification regarding -·--- ---•-o.----- -·- -------- the statement I made.

At no time do I suggest that there has not been "--- substantial progress made in the treatment of retardation at Exon Rouse; there has. That, Sir, does not mean to say, that the peonle who are expert in their field should not come in under course revie~·7 , the situation as it exists, how to i~proYe it, to uodate the present knowledge He have. This wa.s the intention of getting these people, who are the best in their field,involved. Equally I would li~e to add that we hope this year to be able to call all the estimates,withfue assistance of the Opposition~

April 19, 1977 Tape 1648 IB-3 P'P..E!-fiEP ~OOPES : so that this departi!'ent as well a.s others can be dealt with. And also, Sir, I would like to close just these few reTT!a.rks by saying · that even though it was unknovm to us .,after ~• e fincl out the infoTI!lation if r,7 e be w·rong in any given situation or a given statement, ~el!1.bers of the government are only too glad to say the fact that they ~vere wrong and apologize if necessary. MP_. SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions. !'--'!? • PE CKFOPJJ : ~r. Speaker, I would like to revert to statements. MR.

SPEAKER: noes the han. member have leave to revert to Statement by Ministers? Aireed. The han. ¥inister of ~ines and Energy. MR. PECKFORJ): rA"r. Speaker, I just have a brief statement here relative to the recent dispute at Norris Ann concerning the quarry permit that has taken up some items of the news recently. The town of Norris Arm had a quarry permit for the area in question for the years 1972, 1973, 1974 and 1975. Their l ~e rmi t expired on June 2, 1976. On June 4, 1976 the department received an application from A.C. Hunt Limited for a one year · quarry

• April 19, 1977 Tape no.1649 i·1r. Peckford. permit for the same area as was previously under permit to the town of Norris Arm. The application was processed and referrals were sent June 10, 1976 to the various agencies within various departments of the government for their consideration and approval or rejection. Our referrals came back. from Crm•m Lands and Highways and Urban and Rural Planning, and there were no objections. No referral was sent to the town of Norris Arm as the subject area is approximately two and one-half miles vlest of their municipal boundary.

The site is however within the planning area of the town of Norris Arm. It is the practice of the ~~ineral Lands and ~1ines Division of the Department of ~1ines and Energy to send referrals to a municipal authority only if a quary site is within the ·municipal boundary. It should also be noted that A.C. Hunt referred the matter to the Regional A'ppeals Board and was subsequently told by the board that council had no jurisdiction in the matter. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, it is obvious to me that this matter was handled correctly in accordance with the laws of the Province. ~,1R.

SPEAKER: The han. member for Lewisporte. MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, I am not going to say very much ~ on this particular matter. It is a serious matter, and it has ' been going on now for almost a year. It was a problem that I was dealing with the former Minister of Mines and Energy, John Crosbie, before he 1 eft the department, and with the former i·1i ni ster of Municipal Affairs who is now the Minister of Mines and Energy. The main contention on the part of the people in Norris Arm, Mr. Speaker, is that they should have been notified before A.C.

Hunt was given the permit, and that seems to be crux of the situation at the moment. They did have the permit in 1972, 1973, 1974 and 1975 as outlined by the minister. Two days after their permit expired in June, 1976 A. C. Hunt applied and got the permit for the same quarry which is, as the minister said, two and one-half miles from Norris .O.rm. .:

April 19, 1977 Tape no. 1649 Page 2 - ms r~R. \miTE. The council felt that because they did not get their application in on time -that they should have been given the option for courtesy reasons, if no other, to have at least been given the chance to resubmit in view of the fact that they had had a penni t to the quart:-y for four vears Mr. Speaker, I would like to see the government take some action on this today. I was talking to the Mayor of Norris Arm this morning. It appears the town council in Norris Arm will resign tonight · because of this situation.

It is a serious one, and I do hope that government can take some action to prevent the council of Norris Ar.m from taking the action that is backed up by all the citizens in Norris Arm. PRESENTING PETITIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Fogo. CAPT \~INSOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present a petition on behalf of 113 residents of Musgrave Harbour. And the prayer of the petition. is that - and it reads - I quote: "Hhereas t.vo-thirds of the residents of Musgrave Harbour have been served with the facilities of water and sewer; and

whereas two and one-half years have passed since work on th~ project has halted leaving one-third of the people without these facilities, it has now come to be regarded as discrimination among the people on the part of the government. Therefore, ·we ask that the project be delayed no longer, and that funds be provided by the government to complete the system immediately." Mr. Speaker, to put this petition in its right ~oerspective I think perhaps a little background information is ' necessary.

In 1970 a local contractor was given the contract to run a v1aterline to the school ~n that community using the 1.Vater from a well to supply the \•later. I am not too sure whether there 1t1as a sewer pipe or not, a sewer outlet. Ho~t1ever, I \vould suspect that septic tanks were used. However, in 1971 a contractor was given the contract ~~ <:. ··] ~ _ ..... ....., ... r:o..~

.. Apri 1 19, 1977 Tape no. 1649 Page 3 - ms CAPT. WINSOR: to carry out another phase of the installation of water and sewer in ~lusgrave Harbour. After th~ completion of the contractor's contract, the town council too.k over and they carried on until 1974, and I may add, 1·1r. Speaker, a fairly sizeable sum of money was spent on installing water and sewer in the centre of the to.wn of Musgrave Harbour. ._

April 19, 1977, Tape 1650, Page 1 -- apb CAPT. WINSOR: Now, Sir, if the town did not get the best value for its money, then I feel that that responsibility rests w·i th the government. Because I ._ do not think the government. carried out well enough the supervision of the installation of that water ana sewer. I believe an amount well over $1 million was spent there. But 20 or 25 per cent of that money went out in engineering consultants fees and taxes on the money ·which Has borrowed from the bank. Consequently, Mr.

Speaker, in 1974, the whole thing flopped and now what we have in Musgrave Harbour is one part of the town living in the twentieth century and the other part away back in the nineteenth. In comparison, JVI.r. Speaker, we could use - supposing there was water and sewer running pa~a~ref-on Freshwater Road and the people living on Merrymeeting Road had to still go back to bringing their water in buckets from ':.V'ells.

This is the sort of situation we have in Musgrave Harbour and it has created now almost class distinction there whe~~ _ people feel that they are a little better off than the other fellow across the road because he has water and sewer and a nice bathroom

whereas the other poor devil across the road still has to go with buckets and hoops and bring water to flush out his toilet facility. So, Mr. Speaker, there is a discrimination there locally, and because of this a former mayor resigned. I understand the present mayor came in a few days ago to meet with the present ~ inister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. I do not think he was successful because of other engagements by the minister. However, they did mee·t with some of the officials of that department but I do not know if thev got any assurance or not. I would strongly plead with the minister to maY.e an effort this year to try and

April 19, 1977, Tape 1650, Page 2 -- apb CAPT. NINSOR: complete that water and sewer at Husgrave Harbour. Because, Sir, Husgrave Harbour is · nov1 becoming self-sufficient, and it is a nroductive area. It is one of the areas along the Northeast coast where we have, and I have said this before, where we have a creation of new dollars and that is very · important to the economy of this Province today~I can assure you. Mr.

Speaker, I can do nothing less but to plead with the minister to give special attention to this request and I ask that the petition be received, laid on the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. SONE HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker - does the minister ~vish to say a word? Because I ~vill give '!,vay to him. MR. DINN: After you. r..m. ROBERTS: No, let the minister speak. HR. DINN: No, after · you. HR. ROBERTS: Oh well, if the minister wishes to follow after he will in this and a number of other things.

I should like to support the petition, Sir. I think it is a very reasonable request which ~~ese people in Musgrave Harbour make. Where there is no water and sewer system provided,there is usually a very great need,and where there is a very great need there is a very great demand for it. I '!,vould think the minister has a very large pile on his desk of requests from communities around this Province for water systems of for ':vater and sev1er systems. Perhaps I have generated a number of them myself. I have certainly written to him on a number of occasions.

I have even had answers from him once or twice although he does not ahvays answer his maiL ._ .:

April 19, 1977, Tape 1650, Page 3 -- apb HR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, there are many communi ties that need water and sewer systems. And _ wb_ere therP is no water and sewer system,the need gets greater as time goes on because people will not settle now~nor should they settle,for conditions which a few years ago were tolerated and were even regarded as being the norm. That in itself should comment this petition to the House and more importantly to the Cabinet,because it is the Cabinet that must find the money that will enable the people of Husgrave Harbour to have access to a proper syste.rn.

But how much greater is the need, Sir, where the situation is as it is in Musgrave Harbour that three-fourths, I think my friend from Fogo said, three-fourths of the homes in Husgrave Harbour do have a water and sewer system provided by public funds and financed in the usual and normal way? How much greater is the need of the one-fourth of the homes that do not have it? How much more intolerable is the pressure to provide that additional service? So I would say to the minister, that while he has many needs, and while they all have a degree of priority, many have a high degree of priority, that ..:

April 19, 1977 Tape 1651 PK- 1 Mr. Roberts: the needs of this particular community and this particular type of work ~.rithin this community should be given a very high priority indeed. I do not know what the cost will be and I do not think my friend from Fogo '( Capt. ~-linsor) mentioned the cost~ because I assume he does not have access to the engineering studies)which I have no doubt have been done, but I do hope the government will be able to find the money this year so that all of the people of Musgrave Harbour can have access to adequate sanitary facilities.

These are becoming ess~ntial, Sir 0 I do not think there is anything really that the government have more demands for; even roads, we are largely over the hump now with roads in this ProvincE4 We have to upgrade some, parts of my district stil~ barely haye any_, _but on the Southern Labrador Coast the road can barely be called a road. But i ~ . ~s . ~ big - ~~ em . in public discussion, it is a big item say for the subject of petitions to the House; the day of roads is gone, the day of water and sewer systems has come.

I would hope, Sir, the minister is successful in getting a lot of money this year for water and sewer systems throughout the Province and I would hope that a .share of that, Sir, goes to the people of Musgrave Harbour. I support the petition. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! NOTICES OF MOTION MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Finance. MR. W. C • DOODY : Mr. Speaker, I give notice '------ tomorrow ask leave of the hon.

House to present a that I will on v\ ~ bill, "An Act j To Amend The Retai l Sales Tax Act, 1972"; A bill, "An Act To Amend ~ The Tobacco Tax Act", and a bill, "An Act ~ Premiums Tax Act. 11 SOME~·fBERS: Oh, oh! To Amend The Insurance ~ MR. DOODY: No these are metric system things, partially, impartially loopholes. SOME RON. ME.."'fBERS: Oh, oh! ·.

April 19, 1977 Tape 1651 PK - 2 MR.. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. J. DINN: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Urban And Rural Planning : Act." MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Mines ~~d Energy. MR. A. B. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on '\,'\ U " tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The __.y · l Mineral Act, 1976." MR • SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Transportation and Communicatiens. MR. J. MORGAl"'{: Mr.

Speaker, I give noti ·ce that I will on tomorrow introduce ::he following bill, a bill, "Ln. Act 'Io Amend The Department 0f Transportation And Communications Act, 19'73". MR • . SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Justice. MR. T. A. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Repeal The Private Investment Holding Companies Act." ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. E. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Fisheries who was here a moment or so past, but apparently has felt a slip - AN HON.

MEMBER: He is on the telephone. MR. ROBERTS: I am told he is on the telephone. Well let me ask the question of the Premier because it is a major matter of policy; it r~lates to the $35 million longliner programme. I think the Premier was at the dinner where the minister announced it,or the dinner that was part of the conference where the minister announced it, And as I understand it from the press ~eports there is going to be $35 million spent in the next five ye.ars to build longliners,,.;hich is a very valuable and w-orth-while step indeed.

My question is this, Sir, if the Premier cnuld tell us whether this programme is any r.;;ay conditional upon assistance from the Government of Canada?

April 19, 1977 Tape 1651 PK - 3 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: It is not conditional at all, but hopefully there will be assistance, Mr. Speaker. MR. ROBERTS: ~1r. Speaker, a supplementary. HR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR.

ROBERTS: I am told that the boats in question will cost \ between $250,000 and $300,000 each, A~tually that is a little less than ·-- $35 million but a part of the $35 million of course is for the currently existing programme of subsidizes, so these boats are $250,000 to $300,000 each, If it is not conditional upon the subsidy from Ottawa,can the Premier tell us whether there is to be any subsidy provided by the Government of the Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES : I would assume · so, Mr.

Speaker, and if my colleague was back here he could answer it better than I could, but I assume there will be a subsidy involved obviously. Certainly the programme is going to ba initiated by the government and then the terms of payment, of course the terms of .payment through the loan board in this Province : it is a very elaborate form of subsidization anyway. But as to the exact subsidization formula I think, Sir, that will depend on the amount of subsidy as to what the arrangement we can make with the Federal Government. MR. ROBERTS : A further supplementary. MR.

SPEAKER : A supplementary, the original questioner. MR. ROBERTS: The Premier,if I heard him correctly,said ~ that the subsidy from the Proyinc~_depends on the subsidy from Ottawa, Presumably what he was saying,if I understood him,is that if the subsidy from Ot~awa is relatively high, than the subsidy from the Province can be relatively low. -AN EON. ME}ffiER: Ottawa has lowered the subsidy. MR. ROBERTS: Well,I know Ottawa is dropping the subsidy, and this crowd have no assurance they are going to get it, but that is another story, Mr. Speaker.

April 19, 1977 Tape 1651 PK - 4 AN HON. MEMBER: The hon. crowd. MR. ROBERTS: The hon. crowd. I apologize to the hon. gentleman. ·. .•

April 19, 1977 Tape No. 1152 ~·H - 1 ~ffi. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, my question is this, will the subsidy- these boats of $25o;ooo each are ~ery la~g~ and very expensive ._ boats- will the subsidy be paid tn the form of a cash grants, ------ presumably reducing the price to the fishermen, or will it be paid through the Loan Board mechanism ', and a very important point _ as I know the Premier will agree. - . MR.. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER ~OORES: It is a very important point, Mr.

Speaker, and I would suggest that the fis-heries programme, both for the offshore and the inshore in regarding this longliner programme, will be a part of a total proposition that will be put before this House. I also say, Sir, that even though this crowd, or this han. crowd may know what the Ottawa position is, irrespective of what that position is, Sir, we are going to provide boats for the fishermen in this Province. SOME RON. ~ERS: Hear~ Hear! MR. SPEAKER: Is there a supplementary? No, the hon. member for Twillingate. MR.

ROBERTS: I would say you just saved Don MacDonald a number of -- millions of dollars. r1R. SHALL WOOD: Mr. Speaker, would the hon. the Premier tell me whether he has become aw·are· of the new·s in the papers, There is a suggestion the CLB Armoury be demolished. Is he aware of the remarkable historic record of that building, not that it is all that old, but that it has been the scene of some of the most remarkable events in our modern hi!itoi'y. Two Prime Ministers ?f ··canada ;1-r. Pearson and Hr.

Diefendbaker,have held public meetings in it; and that both parties of_~his Rouse have held remarkable meetings in it; that the great caffi?aign for Confederationwas fought in

part in that building; that all the recruiting done for the Royal Ne,.;rfoundland Regiment in Horld War I was done in that building_,and that it has been the scene of some very historic events in our history and does the hon. gentleman not agree that it would be too bad, simply just too bad to see that faoous and historic building demolished? ------------------------ - --- ---------- -----

April 19, 1977 Tape No. 1152 NM- 2 HR. SMALLWOOD: Now ·I do not know if the p·rernier is aware of it. He has been away. I never leave the Province. I stay right here in the House, as the Premier knows. But he has been away and this news has appeared recently, If he is in sympathy with the questions I an 'asking 3 ~·muld he perhaps interest himself and see if anything can be done to preserve this bit of living history of our Province? MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PP~ER MOORES: I agree with the question, Mr. Speaker. And having said that, coming across the Atlantic with the hon. member for Twillingate (Mr.

Smallwood) yesterday I guess that was about the only ·_subject that was not discussed. But, Sir, it was new to me when I came back. There has been no official notification to the gove~~ent. I do not know if there was some plans to have Fort Townshend devel9ped, which this would be part of or not. I just do not know what is the answer but certainly the sentiments expressed by the han. member for Twillingate I am sure are the sentiments of most if not all of us here • And I am sure that the responsible people in the Heritage group that are trying to preserve old St.

John 1 s ,and the City Council - as r,.1ell that have the jurisdiction, I am sure that they will not be making any recommendations of that sort without having first of all canvassed the sentiments in the City. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: I would like to put a question to the hen. the Premier. During the height of the seal hunt controvery this past Spring, Tom Hughes, Presiden~ of the Ontario - ~ Humane Society,came out with a spirited defence of the hunt and of ~ewfouneland and Newfoundlanders. Is the Premier aware that Mr.

Hughes was the subject of a savage attack both inside of his own organization and by the President of the Toronto Humane Association, and will the Premier agree that this House should pass a unanimous resolution to forward a letter of

April 19, 1977 Tape No . 1152 NM - 3 .IR. NEARY: appreciation fey; Tom Hughes for coming f out •· in defence of the seal hunt and ~f -Newfoundlanders? MR . SPEAKER: The hen. the Prem~er. PREMIER ~OORES: Mr. Speaker, I do not know if a unanimous resolution is in order or not . Certainly ou 'k-nm" r.ve coufd be doing that for everything we all agree With, which would be substantial I would think. I think it is most unfortunate that the uninformed people in organizations of which Mr. Hughes is associated would do··as the hen. member for LaPQile (Mr. Neary) suggests they would do.

The fact is, Sir, that we do appreciate of course what Mr. Hughes has done but he did after all what was correct. It is not like he did something on one side of an argument when the other side of the argument was just as valid. . - The fact is that he stated the truth as has the members of this ·------ -- House and a:s have many.other people at the Fishermen's Union level and the -·

Apri 1 19, 1?77 Tape no. 1653 Page 1 - MS PREMIER t~OORES: media level and other concerned people. And I think whilst he experienced attacks within his own organization~the others of us, all the people involved, have also experienced attacks from the same uninformed people. And I am sure if he has the­ spirit of his convictions, Sir, as I know he does, he like the rest of us will carry on the fight to another year \'lhen he hopefully will get the truth of it across. t4R . NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. If it is in order, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to move a motion if- the Premier lo'li 11 second it - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! ~1R. NEARY: - that we send a letter of appreciation to Mr. Hughes. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! It waul d not_ be in order to give notice of a motion . The House is master of its own rules, and by unanimous consent can do not anything, but many things. ~1R. NEARY: Could we by l~ave, Sir, pass a motion to send a letter of appreciation to Tom Hughes for his coming out in defense of the sea 1 hunt and in defense of Newfoundland. I am prepared to move it if the Premier will second it. MR.

SPEAKER: Is there unanimous consent? SOME HON. MEf·1B ERS: No! r ~- MR. SPEAKER: I understand that there is not. The hon. member for Concepti on Bay South. fo 11 owed _!?~ han. member for Terra Nova. ~lR. NOLAN: ~1r. Speaker, a question for the han. the Premier. The hon. the Premier has been overseas, one, on the fishery,we understand,and he has already given some information on that. Secondly, he has also, I understand, had perhaps discussions regarding the Come By Chance refinery and other perhaps industry in -------- ·-

Apri 1 19, 1977 Tape no. 1653 Page 2 - ~·1S Mr. Nolan. Newfoundland. I wonder if he can fill us in and bring us up to date on that? t·1R. SPEAKER: The han. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Not in detail, Mr. Speaker. I did have meetings \'>'ith some of the people who are involved in the financial, the British financial position on Come By Chance. To ascertain exactly what their position was, to let them know what our concerns were, and to try to w9rk out mutually, as well as other concerned people, what the procedure from here on should be. All these things were discussed, Mr.

Speaker, and hopefully as quickly as possible - hopefully that will be soon - all these discussions and negotiations will have been brought to a stage where the hon. House can make some decision. ~1R. NOLAN: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NOLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. Could the han. Premier tell us if he met with anyone from the Roman Group or with Mr. Shaheen while in England? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: The answer is, No, Mr. Speaker. f~R. SPEAKER: The han. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, a question for the t·1inister of Finance and President of the Treasury Board.

I wonder if the minister is in a position to inform the House whether there are any new developments with respect to the strike at the Waterford Hospital, whether the government have made any new approaches or whether the union have made any initiatives to the government? r~R. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Finance. fiR. DOODY: No, Mr. Speaker, there have been no changes that I am aware of. \~e have not heard anything further from the union except for the very important fact that they are holding a membership meeting to discuss government's latest offer,or government's current offer, ·• .·

r Apri 1 19. 1977 Tape no. 1653 Page 3 - ~1S l~r. Doody. the arbitration offer, and we hope that this meeting will be held as· soon as possible so that the feelings and vJishes of the membership can be made known. MR. SPEAKER: t~R. LUSH: A supplementary, t<lr. Speaker. A s upp 1 ementa ry. I wonder if the minister is in a position to inform the House as to what other negotiatio~s are going on between government and employees of the public service and probably a progress report of each? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Finance. r~R. DOODY: That would take a considerable length of time, Your Honour.

I think there are somewhere between forty and fifty di!ferent units of various public service sectors who negotiate with government. During the past few years we have been very fortunate to be able to manage to get one year agreements. l~e have some eighteen month agreements , some fifteen month agreements, and it is an ongoing process. Right now off the top of my head I can tell the han. House that we are engaged in conversations ~tli th the Police Brotherhood. Shortly behind them undoubtedly, as has been the pattern, will come the firemen and wardens. The nurses, the Nurses Union are currently at conciliation.

We signed an agreement with the Call eg·e of Trades and Technology and voca.tiona l school instructors on Friday. There are various other units in various stages of negotiation, but for a detailed progress report, you know, I quite honestly would not be able to give it at this point off the top of my head. ~·1R. SPEAKER: The han. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. nR. ROllE: Mr. Speaker, l have a question for the Minister of Education. Did the member for Grand Falls, the Minister of Industrial ~ and Rural Development,make representation to Cabinet regarding the unfairness of the - -----

April 19, 1977 Tape no. 1653 Page 4 - ms MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! As I understand it the question really relates to the activity of another minister, and I would think that that should the address to the minister whose ;-! t. ~ ~~ _....,_ -=-~ "..)"'-v .:

April 19, 1977 Tape 1654 IB-1 ~·'1'_. SPEA.KEP.: activity is being questioned rather ~pan the presumed recipient of a communication. Hf'.. P.OT'J'E : • I am not finished. _ "1-.fl?. SPEA.KER: The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Vercl_e. MR. ROWE: ~{r. Speaker, could the minister of - really, }'fr. Speaker, I am not questioning your ruling,but it is not the activity of the minister, it is the activity of the person as the mem~er for the district that I was relating to. But I will adrlress the auestion to the Minf sEer o~ Industrial and l1_ural I'evelopmen t. MR. Lll-IDRIGAN: A point of order, ~r. Speaker. MR.

SPEJ-KE'P: A point of order. . . MR. LUNDRIGAN: I would be quite delighted, Your Honour, if Your Honour would so oblige the legislature, that the ~inister of Education be permitted to answer the question regarding the representation that the hon. gentleman is making in putting a auestion. }'IR. ROWE: ~r. Speaker, well anybody can answer the question. }'IY_. SPEAKEP.: Actually I did not auite understand the point of order. ¥-P .• LUNDRIGAN: The point of order is -the han. member knO'IilS what -his question is so I figured he·would understand the point of order.

The hon. member is asking a auestion as to whether the Vinister of Education can confirm that representation has been made to the -------------------------------------------ex eerrflve council regarding a partic ula r matter respecting school taxes. I am suggesting to Your Honour that I 'lirould be most delighted ,_______ to have that question put to the l~inister of Education. "1-'fR~ SPFAKF'P.: Order, please! There is no point of order before the Chair. The han. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde is recognizer' to ask the auestion. If the question is in order that will be that.

The point I was makin?- - anc it may be that when he had finished that would or Fould not have been the case - it appeared to me that he was asking someone witnr' espect to the activity of another minister. I recognize the han. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde now to ask his auestion. --

April 19, 1977 Tape 1654 IB-2 ~·R. RO'hTE : I would like to ask the ~inister of Education, ~r. Speaker, whether the member for Grand Falls u~r. tundrigan) has made representation to the Cabinet regardin? the unfairness of the school tax authority in the Grand Falls area? }1'. SPEAKEr>: _0rc1er, Please! I do not think I "could allow that question as asked - -because to do so "rould open up such a broad area. It is really aslring a minister to comment upon or reveal what has been discussed in Cabinet. It is the "70rdin~, I' It is not the substance. It is the form.

As I understand it the hon. ne~ber is asking whether a certain matter "ras discussed in Cabinet. Perhaps I have misunderstood the hon. member,and I am not endeavouring to be difficult towards him. MR. ROWE: No, I respect Your Honour. ~faybe I can try to rephrase it. _ Has the Minister of Rural Develo-pment in his capacity as ~- - \ \ member for the district of Grand Falls, has he made representation ( I to Cabinet regarding the unfairness of the school tax author~~y - in Grand Falls? ----­:MR. LUNDRIG.AN: ~r.

Speaker, first of all I am not sure that that is the thing to do. r A.1\l HON. ~.fE~ER: He is avoiding the answe1: to the question. ~- · SPE.AKE'R: Order, please! I think this is quite an important point. · TI.!.e hon. members want to submit argument I w:i.ll hear it. But as I understand the hon. gentieman's question it is that he is asking whether a certain submission or recommendation or position was made at Cabinet ··.- Now before giving a definitive decisj_on I r,rould be glad to ~ --------------------------------- ·------hear hon. members. But it seems to me to be an important point. - ---------~ The hon.

Leader of the Opposition. 'MP. pQ-gE"PTS: "-fr. Spea.ker, to that point:I think it is an imnortant, a very important point, and I think it raises an issue. If I can ~~n d the references in Beauchesne I might be able to direct Your Honour to a specific reference. But as I understand it and recall jt there is a precedent in Beauchesne to the effect that a member mav not ask a minister what advice he has tendered to the Cabinet. Obviously that is --

April 19, 1977 Tape 1654 IB - 3 ~fP • ltOBERTS : so because of the rinciple of CabiRet solidarity, of Cabinet responsibility. I mean the gentleiDan for Grand Falls (~r. Lundrigan) may or may not agree in Cabinet vrith a government po]icy,but outside the Cabinet he of course agrees with t hat polic or he i s no longer a minister. That is the prin~iple which every minister accepts. It is fundamental. It does not even require anything other than the mention of it.

But at the same time ,while a question cannot be as~ed obviously -here we are, it is page 147, if I can find the - I am sure there is a citation there ~hich - yes, here ve are. Page 148, Your Hon~ur, may ~e relevant. It is citation 171 C {c). • ... -~- •-;"! ·,~ ...... OI'W ·J

April 19,1977 Tape 1655 AH-1 MR. ROBERTS: " A question may not ask what advice a minister proposes to give the Crown but may ask what advice he has given. 11 And then E(

e) a little below that relate to connnunications alleged to have passed oet~veen a member and a minister. So it is not proper, obviously, to ask, you knmv, ~vhat passed in Cabinet but I submi 't it is proper for the member :!;or Trinity- ~~Y-~_ yerde, my friend and my colleague, to ask the Minister of Education whether the minister has advised the Crown, the government of which he is a part to change the scho~l tax authority as it exists in Grand Falls - I think it is the point of the question- and if so whether any changes are going to be made.

And then the minister in answering may say that I am very happy to say there were such changes and it is a result of representations made by the gentleman fromnrand Falls or the gentleman from anywhere else. That I think is proper. What is improper and my friend was not doing this , what would be improper though,Your Honour, would be to ask what passes in a Cabinet. We have a right to ask what decision-was taken. We have a right to ask what advice the Crown ±s to be given. We may not ask for the legal opinions, we may not ask whether every minister agreed with it.

The fact that a minister is still a minister carries with it the ~nescapable and unavoidable conclusion that the minister does agree with it. Every minister agrees with every single point of.government policy. That is the very heart of the principle of cabinet solidarity_ and if a minister does not agree with it then he has but one choice and that is to wait upon the Premier and to say "Premier I must resign from your Cabinet and I do so herewith". So I think the question is a perfectly in order one. Perhaps it ought to have been rephrased. It is sometimes difficult to

April 19 , ~9 77 Tape 1655 AH-2 :MR.. ROBERTS : rephrase them but I think the information which my friend is seeking is a proper subject for a question, Sir. MR.. SPEAKER: Ron member for St. John's East. MR. }fARSHALL I rise because this is an important point ~ order and the quotation read by the hon. Leader of the ~- Opposition is a r~levent one but it does not give the connotation that he gives to it. Section (171) that he referred to contains what questions may be asked and what questions may not be.

And as he referred to it, (171)) he says a question may not relate to a communication alleged to have passed between a member and a minister. Now whether or not this particular question is allowed I do not -Mr. Speaker, I would submit it ought not to be because it may create a precedent here. I think it is a very dangerous precedent. if a member of this House is ___. allowed to get up and ask a minister of this House as to whether that member ma9e a representation to him or to the government or to what have you.

It is not just what I think -------- it is what is here crystal clear in the rules of Beauchesne~' that this particular question is out of order and all questions relating to matters and communications passing between members and ministers,be they on this side of the House or that side of the HouseJare completely out of order. MR. SPEAKER: Ron. Minister of Justice. :MR.. HICKMA.L~: Mr. Speaker, may I in pursuing the submission made by the han. member for St. John's East direct ~our Honour's attention as well to Sub- paragraph G (

g) on page 140 of the Beauschene which says that a question oral or written must not seek information about matters which are in their nature secret ,such as decisions or proceeding · of Cabinet,advice ;""- ,,-.. .:- . . ~ ~b~.l.

April 19,1977 Tape 1655 AH-3 MR.. HICKMAN : given to Crown by law officers. Pardon! . -..MR. RORE.RTS: (Inaudible) the Crown, I·said • MR.. HICKl-f..AJ.~: Yes but the han. Leader of the Opposition was relying in his argument . on submission on E (

e) and C (c). ~.fuat I am saying , Mr. Speaker, that surely any representation made by any han. member to Cabinet falls clearly and absolutely within the restrictions imposed under E(

g) because that surely constitutes a proceeding in Cabinet, I agree with the submission made by the hon. gentleman from St. John's East that we most assuredly would be . treading unon the very firmly established and unquestioned right of secrecy of all matters dealing with any Cabinet and lor the Lieutenant-Governor in Council. MR. SPEAKER: Ron. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR. ROWE: Speaking to that point of order, Sir, I would ask,Your Honour~ respectfully to take into consideration '----~fact that the member for Grand Falls had,in fact,made the statement p~blicly himself over the news media before he brought the matter before Cabinet. So it is

April 19~ 1977 Tape no. 1656 Page 1 - ms . MR. ROWE: ~ ............. inconceivable that a m£mber of the House of Assembly cannot ask a question about something that the minister himself has made public through the media. r'1R. SPEAKER: Order, please: I think we are in a position now to make a decision on this. First I think I should refer to the submission by the hon. member for Trinity -Bay de Verde U1r. Rowe) -that with respect to the meaning or application of the rules of the House, obviously I cannot be governed by what might or might not have been done or communicated outside the House by any han. member.

That would make the application of the rules too relative and dependent on things totally outside of the House's control or jurisdiction. So that would not be a factor which I should direct my attention to. I have no doubt that the question is one, the information that the han. gentleman is looking for, is something which can quite legitimately be asked. I have no doubt of that at all. That is what the han. Leader - one of the mights that -- - ----- -~- he made. I have no doubt that the subject matter on which he is asking the question or the information that he wishes to --elicit may be asked.

And my reason for interjecting in the first place was because I did think there was an important principle at stake'relative to the manner in which it was ask:ea;··nat to the· -. subject matter, to the manner in which it was asked. The ---particular information he is looking for is something not, in my opinion, something particularl y secretive. But the manner in which it was asked, as I understand it, did come under the rubric of a· proceeding of Cabinet - a proceeding of Cabinet. Proceedings of -----Cabinet must be decisions, discussions, submission, points of view, agreements, disagreements, and whatever.

And it was my understanding, and it is my understanding that as the question was asked it referred to a proceeding. That was the reason I originally interjected . . And in terms of the manner in '~lhich it was asked~ I would not allow it.

April 19, 1977 Tape no. 1656 Page 2 - ms ~1R. SPEAKER. I have no doubt that the subject matter itself is one upon which a question may be phrased. And I now recognize the han. gentleman for Trinity - Bay de Verde for his question. ~~R. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I ·,li 11 try to rephrase the question to the Minister of Education. Has the minister received any representation at all from the member representing ./ Grand Falls relating to the unfairness of the School 1ax Authority Grand Falls?

And is the minister contemplating any changes in the government 1 s policy with respect to School Tax Authorities as a result of the representations that have been made by the member representing Grand Falls regarding School Tax Authorities? t~R. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Education. MR. HOUSE: Mr. - Speaker~ there has been some while getting around to the questions. MR. SPEAKER: Yes. 1·1R. HOUSE: I have had representation from numbers of ---~~ple abou~ school taxes and inequalities of school taxes, and I guess from the hon. ma.ber for Grand Falls (t1r. Lundrigan).

Of course, we have had meetings with people from Grand Falls._ He have had meetings with the School Tax Authority, and anything that is discussed in Cabinet, of course, is going to remain secret until there is a decision made and ready for announcement7 as .far as I am conc~rned. But we hav~ had representation from the School Tax Authorities themselves, that is the Provincial School Tax Authority, trying to get some legislation that will bring about more equality, and that is· being worked on.

And, of course, obviously the members from the districts concerned have had input, and certainly the member for Grand Falls has had input into me about that as well as have other members from other districts. ._ .:

- Apri 1 19, 1977 Tape no. 1656 Page 3 - ms MR. ROWE: A supplementary. ~! R. SPEAKE R: A supplementary. The hen. member for Trinity Bay de Verde. ·- MR. ROWE: A supplementary, t·1r. Speaker. Is the minister contemplating any changes in the government 1 s policy towards -School Tax Authorities or any changes in legislation during this c011ing session relating to School Tax Authorities in this Province. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister_of Education. MR. HOUSE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we are cont~plating . ch~nges. I would not say they would be major. MR. ~1CNE IL: Mr. Speaker - ~1R.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Stephenville. Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of I ~1R. MCNEIL: ForeStry and Agriculture. In the report of the Newfoundland Federal Provincial Task_i?rce on Forestry in March of 1973, it stated that Labrador Linerboard_must be supplied wood at a competitive price from the Island. In light of this

April 19, 1977 Tape 1657 ~-· MCNEIL: what is the status of negotiations ~vith the existing timber limit -----holders on the Island? r--_ _ _ _ _ ~. SPEAKEP: The hon. !'inister of Forestry and Agriculture. IB-1 YP .. V-A"DTAF.D: Yr. Speaker, there have been negotiations going on for a number of years with the timber limit holders pn the Island. There is another set of negotiations or not negotiations but discussions going on at the present time in relation to the committee that is looking at the whole linerboard operation.

I am not prepared to say at this time what that committee is going to report. }fP_, SPEAY.EP_: The hon. member for Baie Verte-White Bay follov1ed by the hon. member for LaPoile and the hen. member for Terra Nova. ~!R. RIDEOUT : Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Yinister of Hunicipal Affairs and Housing. The }!inister of ~unicipal Affairs and Housing was in the Fouse yesterday and he will recall that the member for LaPoile (~r. Neary) announced th~ _ incorporation of a community in his district.

A number of us on this side, Sir, and probably the other side are waiting to hear from a number of communities in their own districts. I wonder if the minister could tell the House whether or not he is prepared to table in this Fouse -nC'H or some ti!T'e in the near future a list of communities to be incorporated by his department this year. }~. SPEAKEP: The hen. ¥.inister of Yunicipal Affairs and Housing. MR. DI~lli: Mr. Speaker, I would be willing to table a list of requests for incorporation.

But until they are investi~ated and we find out what the story is on all of them - and they will be done as we are doing with Burnt Islands and Brig Bay and other areas - we will completely investi?:ate them and then _approve them. '.-o PTT'lEOUT: f._ supple!'"!entary, ~·r. Speaker. ~~ SPEAKER: A supple~entary. ~.{1) ?IDEOt'T: Yr. Speaker, I knovr the ninister has tabled a list of requests but I am -vmndering if the t!tinister - some of them certainly must have 1-Jeen im1estigated - I wonder if the rnintster ~ --~'.: .. ... ~ ·:-..b1.:l·~~ --

April 19, 1977 Tape 1657 IB-2 }'l'P_, RIDEOUT: would take any steps to let members knmv- rather than just phoning up and saying, you know, is this one ready yetJ ~3 uld he table a list in the House of what is now ready for incorporation? T'he hon. Minister of ~~un~cipal Affairs and Housing. MR. DINN: "1-rr. Speaker, •mat is ready for incorporation has already been incorporaterl. MR . RIDEOUT: ..__.____- You mean the only one is Burnt Islands • MR. DINN: Right nm.v yes. ~-rp • ROBERTS : A s~ppleme~ta~y. ~. SPEA1':EP: A supplementary. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. W'.. ROB EFTS : Mr.

Speaker, the minister as I understand it has undertaken to table a list of the requests that have been received from colT'I!lunities or people in cotlllT!unities requesting i~c:orp~l:'.~~~~Il.· -Could I ask him whether he could include in that list,which I hope will be tabled shortly,a list not just of requests received in the last . few months or the last calendar year but a list of all the requests outstanc.ing, you know, that have not been disposed of .If they have been -disposed of they may have been rejected. But a list of all outstanding reauests torether w:ith an ind:ication·of the status of them.

Are they under investigation? Are they pending Cabinet decision or have they just been received and nothing has happened to them yet? I wonder too if the minister caul~ tell the House - tell us now, he does not need to take this as notice - vmether the government have altered their policy with respect to incorporation which following t~e Whelan Commission Feport,as I recall it,was establisherl as we arP. not going to incorporate anything until we ~eal with the Whelan Peport. The f-:rhelan Pepo-rt has no"t been cealt with. It is tvro or three years old no~,r.

There has not been any change that I am aware of. ran the reinister tell us accordingly whether that policy position has been changed and. reauests for incorporat~on are now being dealt with? 1vfP. SP'!':A.KE'!?: The han. ~~inister of Punicipal Affairs and Housing.

April 19 , 19 77 Tape 1657 IB-3 'MP_. DINN: Mr. Speaker, we are dealing ~.rith requests for incorporation and indeed have incorporated several areas since the Hhelan Peport has come in and the Henley Peport. ~ t?OBE'RTS: Eas~the freeze been lifted? (l?DERS OF TEE DAY: ~"'R • SPEAKER: Or~er 1, Ad~ress in Peply. The han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: ~fr. Speaker, to make my thirty-seconds time well spent in this hon. House, Sir, and in anticipation of the provincial bud~et next Thursday, I want to lay _this document upon the table of the ~ouse, Sir.

It is a docum~nt I have prepared overnight based on my observations in what is being done in other provinces of Canaca and my own observations on the needs of Ne1:vfoundlanders themselves. And in the interests of the people ~11ho elected us 'here in this House, Sir, I believe that the ten pointers that I have listed are very worth-while and I think that members of the House would be well advised, especially the }~inister of Finance, to study these ten pointers before the 1977-1978 budget is brought down next Thurs~ay.

I vTottld like to .: have Your Honour's permission to have copies for ~embers, to circulate copies. of these ten pointers to all members of the House. MR. J. CARTER: The ten commal'dments. ~- · SPEAKEF: I trust I will have one myself. MR. DOODY: Read them out. MR. NEARY: I d~ not have time. MR. HICKMAN: By leave. ~-~. ~TEAP.Y : By leave? All right, Sir? By leave? MP.. SPEAKEJ?: The hon. gentleman is tabling a document. It is automatically available to all hen. memhers. }fP_. NEt-PY : By leave I would read it out Your Eonour. ~rp-. SPFAKEP: I a1"1. looking forward to a cony. 1'-'P. .

R0BEPTS: Eold on now. ~~at about the hon. gentleman for Harbour Grace (~r. Young)? Oh, oh! MR. YOu~G: No,

:\pril 19, 1977 Tape 1657 IB-4 _ fR_. NOLAN : Shame on the member for Harbour Grace (Mr. Young)! Shame! ~ . ROBER'T'S: 'rhe bon. gentleman for Rarbour Grace (Mr. Young) ~vill not alloH it. JR . YOD"NG: You can read it if you want to. Okay, I 't.rill read it , Sir . 11 • en '.vays to save Nev1foundland ers money, :1-fr. Speaker. 11 This is head ed. ___ .. _

April 19, 1977 Tape 1658 PK - 1 MR.. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. _gentleman's time is up. Has he asked for leave to MR. NEARY: Leave to read out the ten points, Sir. MR.. SPEAKER: continue? To read out the.ten? Does the hon. gentleman have leave? SOME RON. MEMBERS : No. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed! MR.. SPEAKER: I will have to ask it again. MR. ROBERTS: Can we vote on it, Mr. Speaker? MR.. SPEAKER: No. It has to be unanimous. Does the hon. gentleman have leave or not? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. SOME RON. MEMBERS : No. MR. SPEAKER: It is not unanimous in my understanding. MR. NEARY: Thank you Your Honour. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Mount Pearl. MR. N. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, there are a number of things that I ~an t to talk about this afternoon, and the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr . . Neary) will be happy to know that I am going to give him some words of advice on the Urban Regional Study, hopefully in language that even he can understand. Before I do, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member before the Easter recess or just after the Easter recess was on the airways saying he hopes that hon. members of this House use the time of the recess well in preparing for the next - or when we come back to sit again.

I did, I can assure you. I had trouble ~ontacting the hon. member on a couple of days, but very well. I have a few statistics that I would like to pass on to the House. The hon. members opposite have been screaming -tha t - government has not spent enough time talking about the fisheries in the House of Assembly. we have not devoted enough time to problems of rural Newfoundland, problems of Labrador. So I used some of the time of the Easter recess, Mr. Speaker, to get a little information on this, a little data which I think is interesting to the House. First of all

April 19, 1977 Tape 1658 PK - 2 Mr. N. Windsor: I would like to have a look at w~e way in which the House has used its time since this session started. To date or up to .the April 5, -. recess~ ~rr. Speaker, the House had a total of one hundred and thirty- six and-a-half hours of which some fourteen and a half are taken up in procedures, so we are talking about 122 productive hour~ pu~ of that petitions took a total of eleven hours and forty-nine minutes, 9.7 per cent· of the total time sitting in this House on petitions. Many of them, of_course, Mr.

Speaker, were very valid petitions, all expressing concerns of people from various parts of our Province, very valid concerns, very ably presented by hon. members, Some of them, of course, were dragged out needlessly, taking up unnecessary time of the House. But be that as it may. Statements by ministers, Mr. Speaker, took up five hours and thirty-nine minutes, 4.6 per cent of the House's 'time. The Address in Reply thirty-three hours and fifteen minutes. Now han. gentlemen say they have not had time to discuss the fisheries.

There were thirty-three hours that anybody could have, and a great deal of that time, Mr. Speaker; was spent on that. Private Members' Day took up twelve hours and forty minutes of which twelve hours and ten minutes was spent on Labrador, the motion by the han. member from Eagle River (Mr. Strachan);. Interim Supply one hour and forty--' minutes; And a motion of Privilege of the House, Mr. Speaker, two hours and ten minutes, the han.

Leader of the Opposition on a trival matter of a television, almost 2 per cent of the House's time spent on that issue, trival; Legislation twenty-six hours, well spent no doubt; The late show three hours and twenty-six minutes; Oral Questions twenty- two hours and thirty minutes. -----Mr. Speaker, the han. Leader of the Opposition in The Daily News of, I think, it is April 18, yesterday, is quoted as saying "There is no time for fishery in the House, says Mr.

Roberts." Well, Sir, up to April 5 out of twelve hours and forty minutes total spent on Statements By Ministers 33 per cent of that time was taken up by the hon. Minister of Fisheries or the Premier dealing with matters

April 19, 1977 Tape 1658 PK - 3 Mr. N. Windsor: of fisheries. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. N. WINDSOR: Very important no doubt. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. N. WINDSOR: Legislation, Mr. Speaker, 30.5 per cent of the time that was spent on legislation, a total of 475 minutes was spent <:!ealing rl th matters pertaining to the fisheries. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR._. R,IDEOUT: Particularly the Fisheries Advisory Board. MR.. N. WINDSOR: Yes. The Late Show; Mr.

Speaker, fifteen minut~s, a total of 7.3 per ceilt of the time and so forth.., Now added to that the amount of time taken by hon. members speaking on their districts in the Address in Reply, there was thirty-three hours spent on total on the Address in Reply, certainly a good portion of that was spent by hon. members dealing with the fisheries. The han. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) spent forty-five minutes ..

April 19, 1977, Tape 1659, Page 1 -- apb HR. N. WINSOR: yesterday dealing with fisheries, and Oral Questions, a fair portion of those.

So, Sir, a total of 8.6 per cent of the time spent in the House of Assemb.ly so far, plus the amount of ti:r..e spent on the Address in Reply and Oral Questions on fish~ries, has . been dealing directly with the fisheries, and the hon~ the Leader of the Opposition says there is no time in this House for the fisheries, or for Rural Development, Sir, or for rural areas ofJthe Province, dealing with the problems, government is not paying enough attention to rural parts of this Province. Sir, I "muld like to have a look for a moment at the amount of time spent - very quickly - on · discussing the St.

John's urban regional area, a very important part of our Province, Sir. One-third of the population of this Province lives in this area. 8 per cent, I think it is, of the Province lives in - . - Labrador and 59 per cent reside in th~ halanr~ of the Island portion of our Province. Now, Sir, obviously I am not implying by any means that because 33 per cent of the popu _lC1.t.ion of this Province reside in this area that we should spend "J3 per cent of our time dealing with it. Obviously we deal with the problems as they occur and on a priority basis.

Petitions: Two hours, Sir, have been spent dealing with petitions relating to the St. John's urban region. Two hours almost exactly and that, Sir, was the three petitions dealing with the Haterford Hospital, a very vital, a very important issue, time \'Tell spent, no doubt. Labrador, Sir. Twenty-one minutes is all ~·1e spent dealing \-lith petitions from Labrador, and the balance of the Island nine hours and twenty-eight

April 19, 1977, Tape 1659, Page 2 -- apb MR. N. WINDSOR: minutes, 80 per cent Statements by Hinisters: 13. ~ _p~r -~_ent has been soent on the urban region, 10.6 per cent on the island 4.1 oer cPnt on Labrador and 70 oer cent is verv aener~l for dealina wi+h the whole orohlem. Private Members' Day: Again 96 per cent has been spent on Labrador on: __ t_~e_:_~ot!~~~-=-- _ by the hon. the member for Eagle River (Mr. Strachan), 4 per cent on the fisheries. Now, Sir, let us also have a look at the amount of money that government has allocated aver the past number of years for various areas in our Province.

Again I point out very clearly that I am not saying that because one-third of the population lives in this area or only 8 per ~ce~t--}ives- in _Labrador, that money should be allocated on that basis, certainly not, but we will just use it as a basis for _comparison of the amount of funds spent by various departments of goverill!lent. Transportation and Communications, Sir: In the year 1975 - 1975, 7.2 per cent of the budget was spent in the St. John's area; in Labrador 3.4 per cent; the Island portion almost 90 per cent. 1975 - 1976 similar, Sir, 10.7 in St. John's, 4.4 in Labrador, 85 on the rest of the Island.

In 1976-77, 20 per cent in St. John's, gone up a little bit probably due to the Harbour Arterial Road; 3.6 per cent, Sir, in Labrador and 76.5 in the Island portion. Rehabilitation and Recreation, Hr. Speaker: 1974-75, 8 per cent in St. John's; Labrador, 7.1 per cent, Island, 84.8 per cent; 1975-76, 12.1 in St. John's, 7.1 in Labrador, and 80.8 on the Island portion. -·

April 19,1977. Tape 1659 RH - 3 HR . N. WINDSOR: In 1976-77, Sir, 16 per cent in St. John's area, 5.7 in Labrador and 78.3 on the Island portion of the Province. Forestry and Agriculture, Sir: Obviously, St . John's ,,,ould not do too well in this area . The urban . areas certainly would not . 3.0 p~r cent, Sir, in St. John's, 96 per cent on the Island, Sir, 1 per cent in Labrador; in 1976-77, 7.8 per cent in ,St. John's area, 11 per cent in Labrador and 82 .2 per cent on the balance of the Island . ~ Rural Development, Sir: 1 per cent for St . John's. Well, fine, you would expect that. LabradorJ 68 per cent would you believe?

April 19, 1977 Tape No. 1660 NM- 1 MR. WINDSOR: 68 per cent of the capital budget of the Department of Rural Development. AN RON. ~~ffiER: Why not? MR. WINDSOR: I am not denying it. I am not denying it. I · am simply trying to point out here that han. members have sai~ that this government is not paying any attention. I am saying, Sir, that if there is an area that is not being paid attention to it would be the urban area. I am not begruding for a mome~t any time or any money that is spent on the Province of Labrador or on· the rural part of our Island, it should be doubled or tripled, or ten times as much. MR.

STRACHA."f: But rural de~elop~ent you would naturally exp~ct it to be spent in rural.. Lahrt'lrl(''!' or the Island but not St. John's. MR.. lmiDSOR: Yes. I have said that. MR.. PECKFO:RD : pa~ts of the Province besides L~brador. MR.. WINDSOR: Sure. I have said that. That is fine. Let us look at Municipal Affairs, very intersting figures here, Sir. Government guaranteed loans, Sir, 1976 - St. John~s 27.5 per cent, not bad, close to our popu~ation percentage. Labrador- 3 per ce~t, and the Island 69.5. In 1975 St. John's had 16.6 and the Island 83.4. Special grants, Mr. Speaker, it is quite interesting. St.

John .1 s - zero pe~ cent, and the Island - 89.3 per cent, and Labrador- 10.7 ner cent. Water and sewer subsidies, Sir, these are subsidies on water and sewer systems. St. John's Urban area- 0.65 per cent, ama~ing~ Labrador - 3.4 per cent. It is to be exnected, Labrador is not greatly blessed with water and sewer services unfortunately, and the Island nortion- 95.05 per cent. Most interesting. Industrial development, Mr. Speaker. St. John's - zero. Three years in a row, 197~, 1975, and 1976 - zero. Labrador - zero. 100 per cent spent on the Island. Now the Newfoundland and

April 19, 1977 Tape No. 1660 IDf- 2 MR. WINDSOR: Labrador Development Corporation which is part of that department,or answerable to that department~changes it slightly - 7 per cent in St. ~ohn's in 1974, 11 per cent in 1976. C.ombini~g the last four years,actually,it goes up a little more, 71 per cent in 1975, you get 35.6 per cent for St. John's, 64 per cent for the Island, and less than one per cent for Labrador. MR. SMALLWOOD: What are these for? MR. WINDSOR: These are the amounts of money spent by the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation, percentages of their total. MR.

SMALLWOOD: Over what period? MR.. WINDSOR: Over four years was the figures I gave you. I have the four years here. I just gave you the average for the last four years. So, Mr. Speaker, these are some very interesting figures,I think~to indicate that this government certainly is paying attention to rural Labrador, to the fisheries. I think we need to spend some time, Sir, talking about the major urban area, St. John's Urban Region. Not enough time, Sir, has been spent. We have major studies completed which I will get into. I think the hon. member for Mount Scio (Dr. Winsor), and the han. member for St.

John's South b.oth spoke briefly about it in- t-heir rema:l:·ks some time ago. But, Sir, I think a great deal more has to be said about these studies, a great deal has to be done~of course;and a great deal is being done. gir, we had a number of very important studies recently, not the least of which,of course 1 was the St. John's Urban Region Study, ~major . study all ·encompassing, dealing with all ·aspects of development in government taxation in the urban region. And the urban region, Sir, is defined as the area 1'iortheast of a line drawn between Holyrood and 1-Jitless Bay, of course.

Well, Sir, that was a very general study. That dealt with everything you could imagine for the future and development

April 19, 1977 Tape No . 1660 NM - 3 MR. . \viNDSOR: of this area. Sir, from that it became very evident that further studies were required, more detailed studies such as the St. John's Regional Water Syste~ Study, the St. John's Solid Waste Disposal Study, the St. John's Sewage Disposal Study, all . these studies,, Sir, have been done now. We also, Sir; had at much the same time the ·- - - Royal Cominissiqn on Local Government and Taxation, known as the Whelan Royal Cormnission, the whol.e Province, . whfch ·- ·- --- also, of course,dealt with this area. So. then, Sir, all those were taken and there was a commission of enquiry

April 19, 1977 Tape no. 1661 Page 1 - ms ~1R.N. WINDSOP: to consider all of these matters, to receive input. This is known Sir, , commonly as the Henley Comission. The proper title was the Commission of Enquiry on the St. John's Urban Region Study. This is :the third and final volume of their quite exhaustive report; Sir, and they dealt, of course, with the regional plan which is the basis that has been adopted as a result of the Urban Region Study and subsequent studies and hearings and Henley Commission hearings, the first phase of it.

A regional plan lays down a ~uideline for zoning developments and what pattern develo'pment ~vill take in a region. The second portion, Sir, was the Municipal Services Plan, of course, which deals with the more technical matters of water and sewer services, and this sort of matter. And the third one, Sir, which is one that I would like to make some remarks on now is the Local Government and Taxation which was the third volume of the report. It deals vlith future forms of local government, the urban region. Sir, it poses two·great questions, I think, two major questions here that we have to consider.

Number one is this whole question of regi anal government. Shaul d we have regional government, Sir? Should there be a regional form of ' government at all? And the report makes a very clea~ straightforward recommendation of what the commission feels should be adopted. The second one, Sir, of course, will be the boundaries in municipalities within any fonn of regional government. ~Jhat corrmunities would exist, the 1 ower 1 eve 1 ,.- the 1 ower tier so to speak of 1 oca 1 government in a region: Sir, let us deal first with regional government· itself. Do ~"e need it? Is it another level of bureaucracy?

It could be. It coul~d become just that, Sir. \•Jell, I \vould suggest that not only do we need it, Sir, but I think it is absolutely essential that this area have a form of regional government, certainly some form of regional co-operation, absolutely essential. And I do not think it needs to become

Apri 1 19, 1977 Mr. N. Windsor. Tape no. 1661 Page 2 - ms a great bureaucratic nightmare. Properly put together, properly organized, structured, I think it could become ~ery useful of expeditin~ matters of government. It could become a very good liaison or a logical transition between pure municipal government and the provincial level of government, Sir. We already, Sir, have rudimentary forms of regional government in this area. The water supply system that we are using at the moment is essentially d fonn o-f the reqional _svstem. It is a regional system. It is being operate~ by the City Council.

Various municipalities are purchasing water from them and paying for it. ~-1R. LUSH:- He are over-governed now, boy, you know that. MR. N. WINDSOR: Solid waste disposal is much tbe same way and City Council has a dump at Robin Hood Bay which many municipalities are using. Sir, it can be successful here. It has been successful in other areas aepen9ing:of course, on the characteristics of a particu1~r area, the structure of government th~t was chosen, and there are many, many structures. The Urban Region Study itself outlined three possible structures.

The Henley Commission has recommended another entirely different one, of course. They are all very valid. They all have their good points, and their bad points, their weaknesses and strengths. Sir, I think we should consider the method of implementation of a regional government. Should we accept the recommendation of the Henley Commissionr Should we come in here and drop like a bomb a who1e· new level of government, a whole new structure under this area, or should we pnase it a ~it! Should we start off with parts of a regional form of government?

Should we phase it in gradually as it becomes.-il11lleniently essential? Should we perhaps look at some form of regional council at the moment, irrmediately? Should we look at the boundary changes, the second question, a little more gradually? Sir, I sort of think that the third option here is the one that we should look at. t~e do need a regional government. We desperately need it, Sir, in this area.

April 19, 1977 Tape 1662 IB-1 Y.P. ~!INDSOP: There are so many matters that need some form of regional council to control them such a.s the Bay Bulls ~,.;ater supply> for instance 1 coming on stream July this year, the regional facility not to be mmed by the city, Sir. f.;:,r the moment at least. Who will own and operate it then, Sir, 17 mi~l~~n or 18 million gallons of water per day coming .....!;~• BRETT: There are going to be a lot of people going to be all wet. ¥P • WINDSOP.: "There is going to be a lot of water going somewhere.

Sir, let us consider then for a moment the .effect that regional government can have on municipalities, some of the objections and some of the strengths of it. I "to7ould like to deal specifically, of course)with the effect that regional government will have on my district of Mount Pearl, the town of Mount Pearl and the New Town area, Brookfield Road and Topsail Road areas and why, Sir, the majority of ~ the people of Mount Pearl are saying that we do not aacept it as laid- down in this report, not entirely. We accept parts of it.

We have advocated parts of it. - We-~m."ade representations to the commission, to .government before the commission was even formed, in fact, requesting that certain things as well as being recommended in this r~port! be implemented. Sir, people have said that the town of Mount Pearl}for instance,does not want to be part of this enlarged city of St. John's- I will not use the term 'Super City', that is a misnomer- but enlarged city of St. John's. And why should not ~-<onnt Pearl become part of the city of St. John's? T-Jhy should not Conception Bay South beco!!'e part of the city of St. John's? HR.

NOLA.i.'i' : near, hear! If I suggested it for one moment, he Hould come over at me. But seriously, ~r. Speaker, why not~ People have suggested it is emotionalism. Certainly there is a certain amount of emotionalism involved. You have a cowmunity

April 19, 1977 Tape 1662 LB-2 1-'P.. 1-TINT'SO'P: that you have identified . ~ith for 22 years. built un from nothi~~. There is an emotionalism involved. Sir, at a public meeting I held some tii" .e a!!O I saiC. to the peop] e there , and the-se r,rere all people from Fount Pearl, I said we have to put aside emotionalism in this issue and let us consider the facts, the economics of it, the pros and the cons. One gentleman, Sir, stood up and said, "don't tell me thaj:_ ~hi~ __ is not _ at?-_ ~m;>~J:.onal issue, H is em9tional. r• Certainly it is.

The point I >-?as trying to make to them is, emotionalism is valid but I think we have to look at the important implications here. There are ·j_mplications much more important than emotionalism. An identity. Question, is identity a factor? The report Sir, says here that identity should not be a factor s-imply because residents of urban areas have a similar life style. Sir, I take exception to that.

Obviously the people who served on this co~~ission have no concept of what it is like to live in a community .such as ~aunt Pearl,to ~e ahle to identify with the community and become a part of it. 5ir, you cannot do that in a city --, in a large eity it is impossible. It cannot happen. I could give you, I could go on ad nauseam giving you examples of comments that people from my constituency have said to me in relation to that particular part of the report, saying, Look,here is r,.1hat I have been doing in here ~ --and :r- could not co that in the city. I lived in the city for years.

I have lived in here for three or five years or ten years and look what I have done, look how I have become a pa~t ·of the community. I could never do that in the city~ never. is a different attitude Sir. ~.Je drive past the playground for instance, t!:lat Fe ha"'!e iust c:1eveloper , and we say, '\1hat a nice job we die on that. I was p.art of a co!!'!!lissjon or a committee or somebody- who worked and received a funding_~nd constructed that play~rounc:l- Look at the kids ther~, they are enj eying it, - ---- -·-

April 19, 19 77 Tape 1663 PK - 1 Mr. U. Windsor: and it makes me feel good. And you drive through the city and you see a vacant lot, and you say, why does not City Council do something about that? Now there is a distinct difference there, Sir. In a small col!II!lunity you say, ~1hy do we not do something about that? In a major city you say, why does not council do it? Why does not somebody else do it? Or why not do it for yourself, Mr. Speaker? That is what happens in smaller communities, Sir. The report says "Identity is not a factor," and yet it says, page 173, I think, 137- "To enlarge the city of St.

John's there will be no need of a duplication of effort by having recreation committees for }fount Pearl, St. John's and Wedgewood Park." Now, Sir, is that not a loss of identity? Mount Pearl and Wedgewood Park have accomplished more with recreation committees, and we have two of the finest recreation committees~ Sir, in Eastern Canada. I have yet to be able to find the city of St. John's Recreation Committee. So you are going to disband to extremely active groups of people, volunteer groups of people, and replace them with an non-existent city one.

Then it says, "A stadium commission shouJ_d be -· retained, however its role should be expanded to include the administration of all other publicly owned arenas in the enlarged city." Interesting! I suspect that the first one who ~.;alks across the culvert to the Mount Pe~rl Arena will be shot, to try to take control of that one. But, Sir, the emotionalism and identity are there. They are real things. We cannot deny them. You can play them down as I have, but they have to be considered. But there are many more far important considerations, Sir, such as the loss of autonomy.

I think this is what we are talking about when we speak about identity, the loss of autonomy, Sir, self control. And wh2t this report is saying to the To~~ of ~aunt Pearl and the people of f'!ount Pearl itself, Sir, is that gentlemen at t he moment you have your own council or seven governing your own affairs, but we think we have a better idea. We think you should be a part of a major city and you should have one representative based on a ward system. The wards have not been designed but looking at population distribution,

April 19, 1977 Tape 1663 PK - 2 Mr. Windsor: Sir, the Mount Pearl-New Town area> all of ;i.t. combi~ed, would possibly be a logical ward of this expanded city, one ward out of ten, and there are to be ten ward councillors. That means that that area would have one representative on the city council of fifteen~ Possibly we would get another one, there would be five elected at large or a mayor and four councillors elected at large. There is a possibility that we would manage to get another representative elected, we could have two. We are only guaranteed one.

Sir, then the regional level of government, Sir, that is r~commended in the report talks of another council of fifteen members, · Six of whom would be chosen from among.the city councillors. ~here is no guarantee, Sir, that the one or two possibly representatives of the ' Mount -Pearl area would be one of the six chosen to sit on the regional council, so it is entirely possible that Mount Pearl area would not have any representative on a regional council. Now, Sir, that is a great loss of autonomy.

From your own council of seven, looking after your own affairs, the affairs of 10,000, 12,000 people to having one representative on a council of fifteen looking after 150,000 people. It is muGh more importan~, Sir, than identity. It is a matter of self control. Sir, we have many people•say, Uh the Town of Mount Pearl cannot support itself financially. But that is a lot of nonsense. A whole lot of nonsense. People say that the level of servicing in Mount Pearl is not comparable to the city of St. John's. Perhaps not quite, not quite. We are

April 19, 1977 Tape no. 1664 NM- 1 HR.. WINDSOR: not far behind, Sir. We are not far behind, if we are behind at all in fact. Certainly when you want to contact somebody you do not have as far to go. Accessibility to elected officials is certainly much better. Financially, . Sir, the city of St. John 1 s budget is something in the orde-r o.f $20 million to service their 100,000 people. The town of Mount Pearl has a budget of $1 million to service their 10,000, which means the city has $2 to every $1 for the town of Haunt Pearl. And I can assure you the level of service in St.

John's is not twice as good as the level in Mount Pearl. MR. SMAUJ.JOOD: Are there )..0,000 in the municipa·lity? }fR. WINDSOR: 19,059, Sir, in the town of Mount Pearl itself. 15,000 in the immediate area. MR. SMALLWOOD: Does that include Glendale and around there. MR. HINDSOR: Glendale does not exist. It is all the town of Mount Pearl now. It does not exist as an identity. It is still the"re. MR. ~~LWOOD: It is within the town? ~1R. WINDSOR: It is within the town of Mount Pearl. yes.

You are referring to the Mount Pearl Park and Glendale which were at one time two separate identities and have amalgamated to form this viable town. Glendale is still there in the minds,of coursel of many people who live in there. And when you go west of Couunonwealth Avenue, you refer to, "I am going up to Glendale," very often. Certainly some of the older residents. Newer ones tend not to. Sir, the tmvn of Mount Pearl has said, Look we can survive and survive very nicely. And they have said, \{e think though to be a much I!lore viable community we need an industrial and a c6mmerciaf tax base. Certainly logical.

Any town, Sir, to survive today needs an industrial and a commercial tax base. Mount Pearl is very weak in that regard at the moment. So why ~ _ ....... __ ~~it.) :J.~J

April 19, 1977 Tape no. 1664 NM- 2 MR. WINDSOR: is it weak? Sir, in 1958 the original tmm plan for the town of Mount Pearl ~vas dra..;m up. It was a very good plan, had a commercial area, had an industrial park, had its own water shed, or,m ~.;ater shed reserve, and it is Birmingham's Pond near where the Trans Canada isJfor a water supply and it eventually became apparent that it was more appropriate to tie in with the city system.

And, Sir, in 1965 there were some provisions made and in the 1958 plan provided there was a town of Mount Pearl, __ a town boundary and there was what is known as a municipal planning area ~vhich is an area many times larger than the actual town, but an area within which the to"tm council had a certain amount of control, or at least will be consulted before any development proposals . were approved. In 1965, Sir, there were provisions made for the town plan and that planning area was taken out of there.

So now all of a sudden the to"tm of Mount Pearl does not have control of what is happening in the Donovan's area or in the Topsail Road area or in Brookfield Road area •. In 1971, Sir, there came this great proposal to - it started before that but certainly the plan was slated for what is known as Haunt Pearl, New Town, the Donovan's Industrial Park. The council in Mount Pearl were approached and they said, Look, you have an industrial park planned here and we do not think that is where that should go.

We are planning on a much larger, a regional industrial park at Donovan's, with adequate rail sidings and transportation links and wha ~ not. We think you should reaone your area and make it residential, Sir, make it part of the :~ew Tmm plan. The town ag;reed. It '\vas very logical. ~Thy have this great industrial park and then two miles at.;av have a small

April 19, 1977 Tape No. 1664 NM - 3 .MR. T.JINDSOR : local industrial park? A very logical thing to do. One thing that was misse~, there was no commitment that this industrial park would become part of the town of .Mount Pearl. So there goes Mount Pear~'s industrial base. Yes. gone. So what do we have? We have a residential area· which eventually became neighbourhood two and part of neighbourhood three of a · new_ town, fC?.ur neighbourhoods really, neighbourhoods one, two, three and four, and the area ~hat w~ generally refer . to as Mount Pearl- New Town at the moment is the neighbourhood one __ of New Town.

Th?-t area where the new Mount Pearl Hi.e:h _ School now stands, the Lunar and Sat-ellite subdivisions were built was nei&hbourhood two, Sir, of the ~ew_~town, the completely integrated

.A.pril 19,1977 Taoe 1665 Page 1 -MS nR. N. HINDSOR: completely integrated, proper1j planned proposal for development of an area, both within and outiide the boundaries of the town of ,'~ou-P..t Pearl. It •,-tas vener planned, Sir, to have '!ewtovm and ~1ount Pearl as t.vo separate comrnuniti es. They are not designed that way,rn:ither· is Q_on?\i'?.'ri~_ designed to be separate from these communities. The overall thing '"'as taken. It was designed 'tlith a co!Ti!lercial base, and an industrial base and a residential area - proper sound town planning.

Services, Sir, are int~gra~ed; roads and streets, across the town boundary of the town of r~ount Pearl n0\'1 is as if it does not exist~ and it does not exist. It exists only-as a line on a map, an arbitrary line that was chosen because itwas a fenced boundary properly owned by the late Rolland C. ~·1orris. And that fence, portions of it are still visible if_you_want to go up and see it. That is how the boundary was chosen, because the late Rollan C. ~1orris made representation years ago that 1·1hen the town was formed,I want a11 my land to be within the town boundary.

And he had a defined 1 i ne, fenced property, which became the boundary. And, Sir, planning has not respected an old fence line. And so now we have ma~y cases where boundaries, where streets criss-cross, the town boundary, water and sewer services are all inter-connected. It is almost impossible, Sir~ to separate the two. And so, Sir, l think there are very many logical- reasons why that area should be allowed to develop in that manner and on its 0\'in. And, Sir, 1ve are talking now about - to get back to the regional aspect again, Sir - can the town survive?

Sir, I would submit to you that the town of Mount Pearl has done very nicely financially over the years. The report itself makes r.~ferenc.e to it. Revenue of municipalities in the St. John's urban area, the percentage of·revenue that the various municipalities are receiving -- --

April 19, 1977 Tape no. 1665 Page 2 - ms t·1R. N. vJINDSOR: from the provincial government - and these are 1961 figures here, Sir - Holyrood, fifty-five per cent; Petty Harbour, sixty-sive per cent; Pouch Cove,. sixty-seven per cent; vJabana, seventy-five per cent; nount Pearl, thirty-three per cent. And, Sir, I have some updated figures here for 1975, Mt. Pearl now receives only twenty-three per cent and for 1976 twenty-five per cent of its tota 1 budget. Sir, I think tha~ ~haws very clearly Mt. Pearl is a viable community, extremely viable. And, Sir, an expanded ~1t. Pearl, an amalagamation of ~·1t.

Pearl, of Newtown, Donovans certainly would be viable. No question about it. So, Sir, how do ~e tackle the urban region study, · the Henley Report? Do we adopt it in its entirety as it is here, as recommended by Mr. Henley? And t"lr. Henley is going around lately making statements such as this Province needs good leadership and we should adopt that because it is the right thing to do. Is it the right thing to do, ~,1r. Speaker? In the opinion of that commission it is.,but it does not make it right. That is his opinion.

I have heard him quoted as saying that ·there are too many poltticans who do not know what they are talking about running around making statements about the urban region study. I take very strong exception to that, Mr. -Speaker. Quite a number of people here in this han. House of Assembly who are directly affected know a great deal about this study and the effects it will have on their people. And so, Sir, I think we need something to happen. We need some action. We have had action taken. Bay Bulls Big Pond water supply is one example of what has been done since the urban region study was brought in.

And the minister has indicated he will have some fonn of regional control~ " either a regional form of government or a board of some sort to control that system when

Apr i 1 19 , 19 7 7 Tape 1665 J~-1 - 3 MR. N. _WINDSOR: it opens in July. MR. NEARY: That will not be metric. t-1R . N. WI NDSOR: That vJi 11 not . be metric . If the hon. member , restricted his comments to something he knm-1s something about he would say nothing in here . Sir, we do need a regional form of government and- t4R. NEARY: Like we need a hale in the head. --

April 19,1977 Tape 1666 AH-1 MR. N. WINDSOR: I think it should be brought in. I think the form that this regional government should take must be looked at carefully. I think that the boundaries of the municipalities within that must be looked at very carefully. I thin..l{. the feelings of the people who reside in those municipalities should be considered very carefully. Sir~ I do not think that we need to bring in this great all-encompassing report immediately. I think what we need is a form of regional government to look after immediate problems -the basis, let us start at the beginning.

Let us build on it as it becomes obvious that more is needed. Let us incorporate some of the communities that have been asking for incorporation for a long time. Some communities, Sir, should- perhaps be deferred for . - -·· ' -. the time being.and it will become evident. Sir, communities should only of course be incorporated if it can be shown that they will be viable entities, properly planned" properly structured, able to support themselves. We have had petitions come in here from all kinds of people as~ing government to build water and sewer systems for us, from all around the Province.

Fine, Sir, certainly these people need water and sewerage-systems. But how are they prepared to pay for them? Do they want government to pay 100 per cent of the costs or a portion of the cost? Or are they looking for approval to borrow money? What are they asking for government? Residents in St. John's, Sir, and Mount Pearl have paid very heavily for the services they have. Sir, I think the time has come when people can no longer expect the government to give handouts. Al'l' RON. HEMBER: They are satisfied to pay.

April 19,1977 Tape 1666 AH-2 MR. N. WINDSOR: Satisfied to pay, and you are saying that the people from the rest of the Province are not satisfied to pay? SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HR. N ~I~IDSOR: Hell, Hr. Speaker, I am just about out of time. MR. HICKMAN: Order, ordeJ;! MR. N. WINDSOR: I just want to refer very briefly. I will have to have some more remarks some other time but I think we have to take a very close.look, Sir, at some of the other problems in this area. Such as the outer ring road, Sir, critical- crosstown arterial, Kenmount and Topsail Road, Sir.

The bottleneck that we tackle out there every night is- unbelievable. AN RON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) the ring arterial. ~~ N. liTINDSOR: Sir, we are waiting for an upgrading of course of the Trans-Canada Highw·ay, and when will Mr. Lang make some decision on that? SOME RON. MEMBERS : Oh. _ oh! ~ffi. N. WL~SOR: Sir, there are a number of roads in this area that need major upgrading jobs on~~e~~-~e question. Sir, of solid waste disposal for the urban region has not yet been . finally settled. We had a report on that. The water system,as I mentioned ,is progressing. The se>:verage system is progressing.

Hopefully some major trunk sewers will be constructed this year. And, Sir, these are matters that need to be considered and as I said in my opening remarks I think I have shown very clearly here that rural areas of the Province have been treated very .. - fairly) hav~ been given the attention they require and I think, Sir, it is time that the problems of the urban region also be S0M.E BON. HE~ffiERS : -t. ' Rear, near. given due attention. \ MR. SPEAKER: .--...;-___ HR. S't<f.ALL HOOD : Han. member for Twillingate. I have listened with great interest indeed to

April 19,1977 Tape 1666 AH-3 MR. SMALLHOOD: the speech of the han. gentleman who just sat down. It was a thoughtful speech and it was informative and it was worth hearing, and it was --

April 19, 1977 Tape 1667 PK - 1 Mr. Smallwood: the kind of speech very frankly that I have come after a good many years in this House to enjoy, the kind of speech I think the House needs - SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SMALLWOOD: informative, and I believe very sincere. I rise for the purpose really not at all of making a discursive speech about the Speech from the Throne or the Address in Reply,but rather to address myself to a theme on which I wish to move --------- ---an amendment to the Addres~ in Reply, to add some words to it.

And ----my intention is to use all of the forty-five minutes to which I am entitled. I am told that I could have an unlimited period of time to speak, five or six days or a week or two or three, no limit only the power - of a human voice to survive, I could do that by moving the amendment in a rather different way. But, Sir, I can say quite comfortably and I think completely what I have to say on the subject of the amendment that I am about to move. I have not asked anyone to second it. Will you second it? MR. F. WHITE: Sure I will second it. MR. SMALLWOOD: My amendment is, Mr.

Speaker, that we add to the words of the Address in Reply certain words. The Address in Reply~as Your Honour knows,says "May it please Your Honour,we the. Commons of Newfoundland in legislative session assembled beg to ehank Your Honour for the Gracious Speech which Your Honour has addressed to this House." That is the motion which is presently before the Chair. ~o that I move~ _seconded . by the hon. member fov Lewisporte (Mr.

White) district, that the following words be added to the Address in Reply,"And urges Your Honour's ministers to introduce legislation designed to purify election of members to the House by putting severe limitations on the amount of money that any political party or candidate or any person or organization in their behalf may spend by requiring the detailed reports of all expenditures be made to the public authority by all who spend or receive such money, that no person or corporation or organization of any kind be permitted to contribute any money or

April 19, 1977 Tape 1667 PK - 2 Mr. Smallwood: money's worth to a party, candidate, agent, canvasser, or any other person or organi~ation in their behalf at any time, that all lawful and proper expenses of parties, candidates or their authorized agents or representatives be paid out of the public funds of t~e Province," Mr. Speaker, I move that seconded by the han. member· for Lewisporte. MR. HICKMAN: On a point of order, and I - MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): On~ point of order. MR. HIOOfAN: - realize the han . . gentleman for Twillingate (Mr.

Soallwood) in his opening remarks indicated the length of his speech so anything that is used up here should not count, not that it has to ~- \\nder the rules. But may I draw to Your Honour's attention,a bit of a\ conundrum that seems to be evolving from the proposed amendment. I have not got the Gracious Speech from the Throne in front of me, and it was so long since it was read by His -Honour the Lieutenant Governor , but I cannot remember precisely the wording, but it is my very clear recollection - MR.. SMALLWOOD: I can send it over. MR.

HICKMAN: within the Speech from the Throne there is a statement by His Honour the Lieutenant Governor saying "There will be laid before hon. members legislation to control the financing of eiections." That being the case,it seems to me that the hon. gentleman's motion is not really an amendment, because it is very clear, Mr. Speaker, that any amendment to the Address in Reply to the Speech from the Throne falls into the category of a motion of non-confidence. And obviously if the government has already indicated through the Speech from the Throne its intention to bring in I'!! .r- ,._- •:_{:\)~;:>

April 19, 1977. Tape 1668 RH - 1 HR. HICKHM1: this legislation to deal with the matter that is presently referred to in the notion just put by the han. gentleman from T'tvillingate (r1r. Smallwood) , it does not and cannot fall within the category ~f a motion of non-confidence which Beauchesne says very clearly is what that kind of a motion is. The other, and this is purely for a matter of record and I am not being technical, I cannot recall whether the han. gentleman from Lewisporte(Mr. White) has already spoken in the - SOME HON. HE!1BERS : No, no. MR. HIC:KMAN: He has not.

Well,that is only because again this has been the longest debate, Address in Reply,in the history of this legislature since Confederation and it is hard to remember who has spoken and who has not. AN HON . ~1EMBER: Now, nmv. M..~. HICKHAN: Qh, a very delightful thing! But I do raise this point, ~1r. Speaker, and I think it is a rna tter of subs~ance that the han. gentleman's motion is most assuredly not a motion of non-confidence. And an amendment ----to the Address in Reply to the Speech from the Throne is a motion of non-confidence and must be. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Twillingate. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr.

Speaker, in the first instance may I say that I am not moved by any powerful desire whatsoever to move a motion or an ru~endment of lack of confidence in the government. Hy ,m far more constructive than that. I wa~ ___ bqpj, _.ng ____ !;h_C3.:t I could make a contribution to the creative and constructive thinking of the House. I am not sure from my recollection of the rules of parliamentary procedure, practice, precedent whether an amendment has got ·

April 19, 1977. Tape 1668 RH - 2 MR. S1•1ALLNOOD: nece~sarily to be a motion of lack of confidence. In the second place, Your Honour, may I point out to you that what His Honour's Speec!l declared ~..vas as follm·ls: Hy Government is satisfied that streamlining of the Election Act is necessary. It is my Government's intention to introduce legislation to modernize election and voting procedures, to reform the present method of financing elections,and to impose controls on contributions to political parties.

Now, Your Honour, you will see that that is a very broad and somewhat vague general statement of the government's intentions. My motion deals with only one aspect of the Governor's speech at this point where he talks of the streamlining the Election Act. My amendment has nothing to do with streamlining the Election Act. And it goes on to say, to introduce legislation to modernize election and voting procedures. My motion has nothing to do with that. To reform the present method of financing elections and to impose controls on contributions to political parties.

Nm..r. the strength of the word control may be opened to debate. There is doubtless a dictionary meaning to the word "control". But what my amendment proposes is not to control but to abolish contributions completely. And which,as Your Honour heard my proposed amendment, you will agree it says. I repeat that I have no particular desire, I am not trying to bring about the downfall of the government. I am trying to get the House to consider a matter of the gravest possible importance, the gravest possible consequence to the democratic system in this Provnc Province and indeed in other provinces of Canada.

I do not know whether other hon. members have anything to contribute

1\pril 19, 1977. Tape 1668 RH - 3 ·IR. S~!ALLNOOD : to this matter but it does seem to me that the Speech from the Throne in this pa~ticular matter, part of a sentence only, nothing specific, extremely general and forming part only of a sentence, one of tvo sentences, two sentences in the paragraph in question and one part of one of the two questions in the broadest most general ... - terms possible

Apr i 1 1 9 , 19 77 Tape 1669 r~R. sr·,1ALUIOOD: says that the government intends to introduce legislation not to do, not, Mr. Speaker - I would ask Your Honour to hear what I am pointing out, to hear me. The amendment that I am proposing is not on all fours at all with the concluding part of sentence t~o, the second sentence and therefore it seems to me it is not out of order. "MR: SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. t~R. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, if I might address myself to the ·- ) point of order which I am told has been raised by the Minister of Justice, I understand he has raised ~HO arguments in favour of the point he submits which is that the amendment moved by my friend from Twill ingate is not in order. I understand his points are first of all that it is not a matter of confidence therefore Jf;·l - 1 it is out of order or/and - and I think he has put them alternatively and serially-that some of the matter is referred to in the Throne Speech and that is the point to which my friend from Twillingate ,.. just addressed himself. Mr.

Speaker, I submit that the amendment moved by my friend from Twilling~te is in order. The hon. gentleman from Grand Bank says that no amendment may be made to the Thron~ Speech~ -if I understand him correctly. I was not in the Chamber but I am told by my colleagues,he says that no amendment may be moved to --- ---the Throne Speech amendment unless it is a matter of confidence. Well, Sir, that is a completely ridiculous argument. There is no prec~dent. There is no citation. There is no nothing.

The motion ,----- before the Chair, Your Honour, is simply that an address be presented to the Governor and the words of the address are to thank Your Honour for the gracious speech which Your Honour reaa to us at the opening or words to that effect. It is a very simple procedural motion. It could be maintained to begin \'lith that any amendment to that is a matter of confidence and that if the administration do not carry the House, if they do not carry the f

April 19, 1977 Tape 1669 MR. ROBERTS: vote,then they have forfeited the confidence of the House and they must forthwith resign or seek a general election, seek a __ dissolution I. could argue that if Your Honour wish to hear argument on that point. But in any event, Mr. Speaker, it does not matter a hoot whether it is a matter of confidence or not because all that the amendm~nt purports to do is to add certain words to the Throne Speech. And I would refer Your Honour, if I have Your Honour•s attention. I realize Your Honour wishes to consult with the clerk and I think that is a wise procedure to get advice.

But, Your Honour, citation 201 in Beauchesne says that the object of an amendment may be to effect such an alteration ~ in a question as will obtain the support of those who - W It fs on page 168, Your Honour. - the support of those who without such alteration must either vote against it or abstain from voting thereon. It goes on and says some other words but they are not relevant to the point right now. Oh, it is citation 201. It is the main one on amendments. It is the rule - AN HON. t1E1~BER: 201 ~·1R. ROBERTS: Citation 201.

It is page 168 and I read the initial words from that citation and this is the major citation, the lead citation, the head citation on amendments. There is no reference anywhere to the fact that any amendment to the Throne Speech unless it is a matter df confidence must in itself fail. Secondly, Mr.

Speaker, if Your Honour were to find,and I submit there is no rule of parliament which would require Your Honour to find that an amendment to the Throne Speech must be a matter ---------··· ----­. ----- -- of confidence~then if that is so then I will submit that the matter raised by the gentleman from Twillingate i,n his amendment is one of confidence. An amendment does not have to say we no - ----·-have no confidence in ~he government before it is a matter of no JM - 2 --

April 19,1977 Tape 1669 t1R. ROBERTS: confidence. An amendment has merely to raise a substantive issue and this is what this one does. Secondly, the second ground raised by the Minister of Justice, as I understand ~--------------------it, ·is that since there is a sente nce or bvo in the.J..hrone Speech - .... that refers"to" the gover nment's intention s. to introduce sorre ~ electi~enses legislation that that precludes any amendm:nt deal1ng with that topic. Have I correctly understood the minister's point? JM - 3 Well, Mr. Speaker, that too is a pile of parliamentary . . nonsense.

The motion before the House is not the Throne Speech. The motion before the House is to thank His Honour for reading a speech, and we may add to that words as far as I am concerned,and I think parliamentary tradition, Sir, 'flill buttress this irrevocabily and unarguably. We may add to it if the House so wishes any words as long as they are properly respectful, may add to it any words dealing with any subject that falls within the legislative competence of this House and ----

April 19,.1977 Tape 1670 AH-1 MR. ROBERTS: _it is certainly within the legislative compete~ce of this House to urge the ministers to introduce legislation - MR. NOLAN: ~ight! MR. ROBERTS: It does not matter whether the ~•ords of the amendment are the same as those of the throne speech or not. Th ~y are not as it turns out - but so what? That has n9thing to do with the fact that the House if it wishes can attach to the motion now before the Chair some additional words. That is the whole purpose of an amendment, Your Honour.

As citation (201) says the whole purpose of it- is to change a motion and to change it so that it will gain wider support that it would gain if it were not changed. I have never heard of any suggestion that unless an amendment is a matter of no confidence it ·cannot be moved. And I would ask the House Leader to cite some authority, to give some precedent, to give some rule. I know of neither, Sir, I really do not know of anything that would say that a motion must be one of non-confidence before it can be moved.

But secondly, even if it were, I would argue in the alternative that this matter is one of lack of confidence. Obviously it goes to the heart of the government's policy and I would suggest, Sir, that the only substantive difference, the only way in which that question would become of importance, Sir, would be that if the gentleman from Twillingate is moving a matter affecting confidence, the confidence of the House in the administration:- t_henhe has no time limit on the time on which he wishes to speak.

If on the other hand he is merely moving an ordinary amendment he has a forty-five minute time limit, that which applies to any hen. gentleman other than the Premier and myself and some others. Standing Order 49. So, Mr. Speaker, as I submit - and I realize I have been a little long ,but you know, it is not an unimportant point . .. ,. ..... ..,.2 /_j. ,l.,. • .. -""-V ...

April 19,1977 'fape 1670 AR-2 MR. ROBERTS: In any event the Minister of Justice has raised two arguments which I think are quite fallacious. I do not know of any authority that says it must be a matter of confidence. Even if it is, if there is such-authority, then this is a matter of confidence I submit in any event,and secondly, Sir, the fact that some ~.;o'rcls are in the Throne Speech does not preclude any amendment.

If it did , Your Honour, all the government··would have to do is head off any contentious issue by putting N'Ords about it in the Throne Speech and there could never be an amendment on it, and therefore the!-e could never be a debate. And, Sir, that is patently a_bsurd. The motion before the House ·is simply to: thank His Honour for the gracious speech,or whatever the precise words are 1 and then all that we wish to do is to add to it some words in the terms of the gentleman from Twillingate's amendment and I submit it is perfectly in order to do so, Sir. SOME HON. ~!ElffiERS : Hear, hear! MR.

HICKMAN : I may respond very briefly and I repeat as I said earlier this is not an attempt to restrict in any way / the hon. gentleman from T~<l'illingate addressing himself to what is a very, I think, topical issue and one from which I would very much like hear the views of the hon. gentleman from Twillingate. But may I direct Your Honour's attention to page 143 - right at the top of the page, Beauchesne,which says; "An amendment to the Address in Reply to the Speech from the Throne is a motion of no confidence." Now, Mr.

Speaker,if it is a motion of no confidence it has to be made abundantly clear from that motion as to whether or not hon. gentlemen --in this House voting for or against the motion are showing their confidence in the government. And the government very clearly -·

April 19,1977 Tape 1670 AH-3 MR. HICKHAN: has set forth in the Speech from the Throne,which is really the main motion,that the government is satisfied that the streamlining af the election act is necessary. ••rt is my government's intention to introduce legislation to modernize the election and voting procedures,to reform the present method of financing elections and to impose controls and contributions to political parties.'' And , Mr.

Speaker, no matter how you read a motion that is presently before the House - the difference is the purification of elections is used - instead of modernization and voting proceedures and the control of expenditures it is ·vecymudi identical and the same. So if the government ·- --- obviously has to treat this~ which i~ must, as a motion of non-confidence then the governmsnt 1\70Uld be duty bound to defeat the motion. MR. J. ~INSOR: The government is - MR. H