Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 10A (25th Legislature, 1st Session)

25-1-10a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEG ISLAT IVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock , Wedn es day, Novem ber 5t h, 1958 Ope ning Prayer by Mr . Spe �ke r MR . SPEAKER: Pre se nt ing Pet it ion s Rea d ing and Re ce iv ing Peti t ions Presen t ing Repo rts of Stand ing an d Select Co mmi ttees DR . W. G. MART IN (St . Ma tthews ): �lr. Speak e r I would li ke to pr es ent th e th ird repor t of th e Se lec t Spe ci al Comm itt ee. MR . CL ERK : Yo ur Selec t Spec ial Com mi ttee beg le ave to pre s ent th e followi ng as th e ir th ird repor t . Yo ur Co mm it te e ha s co ns ider ed Bi ll No . 2,

an Act to amend Public Sch ools Act ; No .),

an Act to furt her th e eco nomic deve lop ment of th e provi nce by enc ourag ing th e grow th of bus iness , an d ha s agreed to repor t th e sa me wit h cer tai n amendment s, all of wh ich is re sp ectf ully sub mi tted. DR . MART IN: Mr . Speak e r, I beg to move , seco nd ed by th e honoura ble mem ber for Robli n, th at th e report to th e commi ttee be re cei ved . Mr. Spea ke r read th e mot ion an d follow ing a voi ce vote declared th e mot ion carr ied . MR. SPEAKER : Not ice of Mot ion . Int rod uct ion of Bi l ls . Order s of th e Day . HON. DUFF ROBL IN (P remi er ): Mr .

Speak er , before th e Orders of th e Day , I would li ke to lay upon th e table of th e House , retur ns to th e Orders of th e House Nos . 1 and ). HON. JOH N THO.MPSON (l'-1inister of Labour ): bef o re th e Orders of th e Day , I would li ke to th e repo rt on th e Roya l Comm is si on, enqu ir ing Compe nsat ion Ac t. Mr. Spe ake r, lay on the table , int o th e Work men ' s :tvlR. R. PAULLEY (R adi sso n ): Mr . Speake r, ma y I ask th e Hono urab le Minister if copi es of th e re por t are go ing to be made ava il able to the mem bers at th is sessi on . l'-1R.

THOMP.SON: Co pies will be di stri but ed almo st immed iat ely . MR . PAULLEY : Th ank you . HON. STEV JART E. IvlcLEAN (:tvlini ster of Edu cat ion ) : Mr . Spe aker , before th e Orde rs of th e Day , I wis h to lay on th e ta ble a retu rn to an Orde r of th e House No . 5. 1

MR . McLEAN (Cont inu ed) Mr. Speaker, if I may - - I am going to place in the hands of the Clerk of the House, a consolidat ion of all the amendment s we have agreed to in Commit te e, on Bill No . 2. These are arranged numeri cally, and will, I think, assist the members of the House in our further conside ration of the Bi ll . It will cont ain all the amendment s .• MR . SPEAKER: ••••••••••••Commit te e of Supply . MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seco nded by the Honourable the Minister of Health and -- the Honourable Minist er of Industry and Commerce, that Mr •.

Speaker do now leave the chair and the House resolve itself into a commit te e to consider of the supply to be granted to Her Majest y. Mr. Speaker presented the mot ion . MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the quest ion? MR . A. E. WRIGHT (Seven Oaks) : Before you put the question, I'd like to ••••• MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable the Leader of the Opposit ion . MR. D. L. CA1v1PBELL (Leader of the Opposition) : •••••• ask Mr. Spea ker if, eit her. the Fi rst Minister or some of the ot her Minist ers will be making a st atement on this motion? l-1R. ROBLIN: Mr.

Spea ker, it was not my intent ion to make a st atement on this motion, but I do intend to make a st at ement on the resolution to go int o the Commit te e of Ways and Means . I'm trying to recall, · from previous custom, whether st ate ments have been made on supply, I suppo se they have been from ti me to ti me, but in view of the nat ure of the business to be tr ansacte d in th is committe e, I did not think it necessary to do so .

But , I can assure the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition that I expect to make a review of the fina ncial sit uat ion, and some ot her pert inent mat ters on the motion to go into ways and means. And I- -of course, the House will do what it wishes, but if -- that might be a good opport unit y to have a debate on the various mat te rs. MR . M. A. GRAY (Inkst er): •••••••• will it be considered a budget speech? MR . ROBLIN: Mr.

Speaker, if I may be allowed to answer the question, I wouldn't call it a budget speech, we are not presenting a budget in the usual way, but I did think I should take advantage of the op port unity to give the House what infor mation I can about the .fi nancial posit ion of the prov ince, and ot her mat te rs connecte d therewit h. MR . CAMPBELL: Mr. Speaker, so long as it 's underst ood that we will have the opport unity of disc ussi ng any matte rs if we wish 2

MR. CAMPBELI,. (Continued) to at that ti me, perhaps it 's as well . lvly only thought was that inasmu ch. as the circ umst ances are a bit unusual on this occas ion, that perhaps the First :Z..1inister would avail himself or the opportunity of making the stat ement first which mi ght obvia te some of the quest ion s that would come up in the commit te e stage, but I have no point to make on that particu larly. MR . WRIGHT: M r. Speaker, I wish to draw the att ent ion of the House, an inequity in the matte r of premiums in the Manitoba Hospit al Services Plan.

This is a problem th at one of my con st it uent s has at the present ti me. This involves a widowed mother, wit h four unmarried daughter's, and one son age 17, now at school . One of the daughters is receiving the disabilit y pension, and because of hEr condit ion, this makes it impo ssible for the mother to go to work. The three working daughters each cont ribut e $2 .0 5 per month, and the mot her has been denied the right -- at least one of the daughters has been denied the right to claim the mother as a dependent . I might say Mr.

Speaker, that under the Federal Inc ome Tax regulations, the daughter is able to do that . This makes a to ta l annual premium for this family unit of $123.00. It is felt that one of the daughters should be allowed to claim the mother as a dependent under the Act, and I would ask that serious considerat ion be given to cases similar to this, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker put t;he question and afte r a voi ce vote declared the motion carried . MR.. SPEAKER: take the chair? Would the honourable member for St . Matt hews MR •.

CHAIRMAN: Resolution No . 1, Appropriat ion 6, first session of the tw enty-fifth legisla tu re . (a)

(1) Members' indein nities - $56, 000. 00; Expense Allowances - :$28, 000 . 00; Trave lling Expenses - $1, 200 . 00; Opposition Leader - $1, 250. 00; - Tot al - $86, 450 .0 0. (

a) Passed . , (b)

(1) Speaker's Indemnity - $2, 000. 00; Speaker's Expense Allowance - $1, 000. 00 - Tot al - $3, 000. 00. (

c) Salaries - Deput y Speaker or Chairman to the Committe e as a Whole - $375.0 0; Sargeant -at-A rms - $300 .0 0; Sessional Assist ants, Messengers and Pages - $4, 200 .0 0 - Total - $4, 875. 00� (

d) Supplies, Expenses, Equipm ent and Renewals - $2, 400 .0 0�.-��· (

e) Legisla tive Print ing and Bindin g - $8, 000. 00. MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Chai rman, on this it em, I would like to direct a quest ion or two to the :tvlinister in charge of this

section of the supplemental estimate . I think the members would be int erested to know, in view of past arguments and past legislature, as to the cost of print ing the Hansard, or th e Debate s and Proceed ings in this House. I would also like to make a comment on the documents that we receive daily, as to the debate s th at are happening in the House. Now, I would suggest that --an d while I appreciat e th at this is a new vent ure insofar as this legisla tu re is concerned, I would suggest that serious conside rat ion be given 3

MR . PAULLEY (Continued ) to - in the future - to a proper editing of the debat es whi ch takes place. I'm sure that all honourable members will agree wit h me that it is rat her diff icult to find , without perusing each of the edit ions, what has taken place in any

part icu lar deba..t,;;'! . We are all interested in what each and every member says, and of course, being educate d by the fine system of Hansard that prevails at the present ti me on the federal basis, we are used to that , .and I suggest that serious consideration should be given to that . And also, Mr. Chairman, while I appreciate full well the difficult ies in the briginal start of a thing like this, on the part of the staf f, I think that the considera tion should be given, again giving due credit to those that are responsible at the present ti me.

But I think that due cons ideration should be given to the-"":'an attempt to speed up the area of time from which the debates· are made until the edit ion comes before us in this legislatu re. I understand that in Ott awa, the preliminary copies of the debates are in the hands of the members the day following . As it is now, we are now to day, receiving copies of the 8: 00 o'clock session of. last Friday night .

Develo pment s have happened rather rapidly in the last two or three days, partic ularly in regard to the Speech and the Address to theThrone, and lacking the Hansard, some of us may have wanted to have made comments on some of the debates and cont ribut ions to the debates that other honourable members in the House had made . We have grown parti cularly in this session, to co me to a firm belief, that we can not rely on the recordings as published in our local papers . They h-%.V'e been so erroneous from time to time, that we cannot any longer, I feel, rely on them .

And now that we have a system of Hansard, or the recording of the debates and proceedings, I think that it would be in the int erest of all con cerned, if effort s could be made to speed up, or elimi nate the ti me lapse which we have at the present ti me, bet ween the debates, and the ti me that we, as members, receive the debate s. As far as editing is concerned, a number of incid ents have been drawn to the attention of the House, that members words have been slightly other than those that they thought they- -or did issue, utter from their mout hs. I don't think that --th us far, Mr.

Chai rman, that any great injus tice has been done as a result of not being edi te d. But, I would seriously suggest more speed in order to get th e issues to us, and that consideration be given to indexing the copies of Hansard, for, not only the benefit of the members in the Legislatu re, but those out side, who are following it . A further point to that Mr.

Chairman, I have found on going down to the Queen's Printer , that there only seems to be a limited number of the copi es print ed, and, on a couple of occas ions, have been unable to obta in, due to tardiness possibly on my part- maybe some of the ot her members have also found it so, due to tardiness, that the issu e- -that the number that h,ave been mimeo graphed or print ed have been exhaust ed . I just make those comments, Mr. Chairman, in the int erests of further dev eloping this idea . I think it's an admirable idea, something which we have fought for, over the years. I think in closing, Mr.

Chairman, it would be interest ing to 4

MR . PAULLEY (Continued) know, in view of the past debates on this, what is the anticipated cost, and I do earnestly suggest to the members opposite that theY take note of the points that I have raised, in order to make this even more acceptable than it is at the present time. MR . E. PREFONTAINE (Cari llon) : I would like to say a few words with respect to Hansard . I 1 m one of those who has raised a few matt ers with respect to Hansard, but I would like to state that I do not agree with the honourable member who has just spoken, when he says that we cannot believe what is reported in the :,:>ress.

I believe that the reports in the press have been much more accurate than the reports that have appeared in Hansard. In most instance s--I just point out too, another mistake of Hansard, which has just been placed on our tables, the debates on Oct ober 31st, 1958 - that 1 s last Friday, and it 1 s quite a few days . At that time, I spoke and I had some comments with respect to the Leader of our Group, and I said this, which is partly well reported, "Mr .

Speaker, I for one am sure that Premier Campbell is a man of whom it will be said that he was not a poli tician, but a sta tes man, and, do you know the difference between a statesman and a politic ian?

It is this,n and I stated, and I would like every ••••• to ask every member of the House to try and recall what I sta ted, and it was this, "the diff erence between a sta tesman and a politician is this, the statesman is one who believes that he belongs to the nation, and the politician is one who believes that ·the nation belongs to him." Now, according to Hansard, I said this, "Do you know the difference bet ween a statesman and a politician? It is this, the statesman is one who believes ·chat the nation belongs to him," and that's all.

It doesn't report my speech, I'm sure that I made it, I'm ready to go and check with the Honourable the Provincial Secretary at any time . I'm sure that I made a distinction between the sta tesman and the politi ci an . And, this doesn't make it - it doesn't make much sense . "A sta tesman is one \"lho believes the nation belongs to him." That Hansard- -it is quite an error. When I called the attention to the House the other day to a mista ke, a mista ke which happened on the first day, I was reported at that time of having sta ted that I had been chosen as Speaker of the House .

The mista ke happened this way, and when I went with the Provincial Secretary, we found out the machine was not synchronized to my desk at the time - if that is the proper word? And, the machine did not catch the first sen te nce . I sta ted that at ti mes my age was against my being chosen, and the typist said "I have been chosen. " So, I say that it is about time that there should be some editing done because mist akes will carry on . I believe there is an improvem ent, quite an improvement in this report of my last speech, and of course it might be my own fault .

I'm trying to speak as clearly as possible, but apparently I can't . But, there are mistakes that have been pointed out by quite a few members of this House . So, I think that in order to have some thing that will be quoted for a long time for the records, that it should be more accurate, there should be at least some chance 5

MR . P�EFO NTAINE (Continued) of correcting it rather than -- a better way than correcting it the way I'm doing now . HON. MARCEL BOULIC (Provincial Secretary) : Mr. Chairman, in answer to the question of the honourable member for Radi sson, we anti cipate an expense of $150. 00 per afternoon session, _and $175.0 0 per evening session . As for Mr. Prefontaine's comments about the few mistakes that might have come in, I understand that he will have corrected himself in just saying what he said now. MR . B. CORBETT (Swan River): Mr.

Chairman in the reports of Hansard, I made use of the words dammed the river, in which it is spelled "damned" . In my sta tements here I've "damned" the Dauphin River and I've "damned" the Fairford River - "damned" - which makes quite a differ Eince in the meaning . NR.. CA!,1PBELL: Mr. Chairman, the remarks of the last speak er point out how diff icult this whole question of reporting is, and, I recall the fact that some people in this House, and another House, were very anxious to ta ke 1ne to task one time, because I mentioned about the Otta�m Hansard being doctor ed .

I admit that the phrase was not a partic ularly expressive one--it cert ainly wasn't "Churchillian" English at all, but I hadn't been >vriting the speech out, and I just used the expression that came to my mind, and it still is a fact as honourable members who know the procedure at Otta wa are aware, that it is doc tored . The Ottawa Hansard is doc tor ed . And, that's what makes the federal members speeches look better than when you hear the federal members .

And, I'm sure that most of the people would not object if our speeches in here could be made to, both sound better and more enterta ining, and look better in print as well, but, this quest ion of revisions is difficult .

The honourable member for Swan River mentioned that you can get the spelling mixed up a bit, and I think o.f the poli tician who was being reported by the local paper, and he was a veteran, and liked that fac t to be mentioned, and he had handed out in his press release that he was a battle -scar red veteran, but the press report left out one of the "R's " in scarred, and he, of course was desperately displea sed with that, and urged that they must make a correction . And, in the next issue they managed to correct that one alright and got that word right, but they got an "o" instead of the 11a" in the first word.

So, this question of making corrections presents its diffic ulties too . And, I'm not complaining, and I know I'm one of the worst offenders . I'm not complaining, though, that Hansard goes dm.m as we speak our words in here. I'm not urging, and I don't urge a system where we are given the opportunity of doc toring as they do in Otta wa, because it was admi tted in the debate down there, when the debate took place a couple of years ago - it was admitted that fairly extensive corrections were made, and, we folks who have watc hed them know that fairly extensive corrections are made in the Ottawa system .

I do not advocc.'\te that . But still, the- - this system leaves something to be desired too . And, I think it's rather diffic ult that some of us would have to read ov�r our own contributions to Hansard in order to be sure . I'm glad to see 6

MR. CAMPBBLL (Cont inued) that my honourable friend and colleague, the member for Carillon, is so fond of his own speeches that he assiduously reads them over again . I - if I were going to read the speeches over again of anybody in the House, I think I would choose those of my honour able friend, but , certa inly I don't want to read my own over agai n. And, I don't think anybody else does, or not very many, perhaps they'll want to see what st and I to ok on some particula r th ing .

I have always been prepared to leave it to the daily press to report it, and I think you'll always find that no matter how we try to lffiprove this syst em, thnt we'll find that we press it in in th is place, it 'll bulge out in another . VJe 'lJ cant inue to have difficu lt ies wit h it . And, I st ill wonder if it 's wort h the expendit ure . Perhaps some honourable members could say what' s :�lOO. 00 per si tt ing., but that's just in my mind, sympt omati c of the t'lffies.

And then, I come to my famous complaint, the very fact th at it is difficult to get an accura te reporting, and I'm not blaming the st aff, I'm not blaming the st aff, because I'm sure it 1s difficult for them to o. Some of us do not enunci ate as clearly as ot hers. It's difficult to cat ch the int erruptions, if you don't catc h the int errupt ions, then the reply that is made to the int errupt ion appears in the body of th e remarks of the one speaking, and throws it ent irely out of cont ext . It makes us look a lit tl e more illog ical even than we are when that kind of thing happens.

And, there's so many difficu lt ies, but the ot her-- in order to guard against that , the practice has been growing in this House of reading speeches . And, that' s the thing that I object to. I don1t object to the reading of answers by Minist ers, because they must be complet ely accurate in those . Arrlthey frequently can't tr ust their memory, because of te n th ey're on te chnical mat te rs and deal wit h fact s and figures and th ings that must be put on--I don't object to the reading of the Minist erial stat ements and things of that kind .

I don't even object to the reading of speeches, where necessary by new members, but I do object to the pract ice that has grown un, of ueople in order - ever si nce this recording sys te m has been here, and I mention my Honourable friend, the first Minist er, if there's anybody in th is House who doesn't need to read his speech, in addit ion to my Honourable friend for Carillon, it's the Honourable the First Minister, because whatever •••••• MR. ROBLIN: He doesn't . MR. . CAMPBELL: Oh yes, he does . MR.. ROBLIN: No, I don1t . You're quite wrong . MR.

CAMPBELL:· ••• but whatever else he does I give him . • • • ••• he has notes that are word for word, every word of them pri nte d out . I've wat ched hlffi on many •••••• oh not in all case s, I'm not meaning in all cases, but I wat ched my Honourable friend the ot her day •••• MR. ROBLIN: I think Mr. Chai rman, my honourable friend will 7

MR . ROBLIN (Continued) just have to tak e my statement that I do not read speeches , that I think he is well aware of the fact . MR . CAMPBELL: I have to tak e my honourable friend's state ment for things that I'm not in a position to watch myself , and when I watched my honourable friend the other day , it was his Bourinot or Beauchesne or some other one of those large books up here , with the , with the •••• evident ly , the speech all written out on it . And I asked my honourable friend if that isn't the case . MR .

ROBLIN: I already said , that's not the case, my honour able friend will just have to accept that as a fact . MR . CAMPBELL: Well, if my honourable friend says that's not the case, I admit that I'm not in a position to see it as well from over here , as he is from that si de , but , the point that I'm making is that if there's anybody in the House that doesn't need to stick that close ly to his notes , my honourable friend is one of those people .

And , I think it1s a very great mis take that we should allow a system here to corru�ou r good practices , which are accordi ng to the rules , that speeches should not be read . I quoted from the Right Honourable Arthur Meighen the ot her day ffirl I remember hearing the Right Honourable gent leman give the judge's decisio n in co nnect ion with a debate, which was national in character , and he certainly gave an exemplifiretion to my mind of how public speaking should be done. This is some years back.

One of the things that he deprecated then , in the stro ngest terms , was the tendency to ward--of readi ng speeches . And, I not ed , .although I didn't hear this one , that a short time later , in speaking to - I think it was the Canadian Club in V·anco uver , that again he had spoken on that same point. And, I'm conc erned about the fact, not just because we're breaking the rules , because perhaps we break them in other regards as well . But, if I might make an appeal to the House , would be to try and get away from this practice of reading speeches .

There's a good reason for that rule being in the House , because the background of it is that if it's allowed for speeches to be read , then opinions might be expressed in here that don1t originate with the speaker at all, but with someone fr om outside the House, who is- -t he old texts say , whose are not properly to be put before the House in that way.

Well, I don't know what the answer is to all of this , but I certainly do think that we must get a better met hod of allowing mi nor and obvious corrections to be made, not by the Speaker himself, except by the meth od that we do it now, but by the staff , who I'm sure are competent enough that they can change some of these mistakes that we see in the report as we get it now .

I'm not critical of my honourable friend the Minister , because this is a new departure and it1ll ta ke a little time to get it working properly; but I do commend to him some attent ion to ward keeping very , very high quality of people , well trained people , on this work , and then give them some leeway. Them, not to we the members ourselves, except by the method that we're using here now , but to give to them the opportunity of correcting obvious

MR. CAMPBELL (C on t inued ) er rors , be caus e th er e 's no po int in hav ing a co mpetent st aff of th at ki nd let such obv ious er rors , pe rhaps as th e one men ti oned by th e honourable th e member for Swan Rjve r, sl ip by and the n have to be co rrected in here , becaus e it mak e s a lot of ext ra tro ubl e for we fol k.

I n6t ice in one of th e rep or t s th e oth er day , I di dn 't both er br ing ing :it to the at ten t ion of th e House , but I no ti ce th e \...rron g sp �ll ing for th e word co mpl iment ary , I thi nk it was whe n my honou rable fr iend th e l-1ini st er of l-1ines and Natural Res ource s, in co nn ect ion wit h Bi ll Number 3, alt houg h I'm not cer tai n th at wa s th e occ asi on , had use d th e word "co mplem en tar y le gis lat ion , " and it wa s th e ot her ki nd of co mplime nt ar y .

And it's thi ng s of th at ki nd , now I1m sure th at th e st aff who are worki ng on th at jo b are well en ough tr a ined , th at th ey know th e di fference betw ee n th e tw o , and I thi nk a li ttl e mor e care would obv iat e a lot of th ese di ffic ult ie s th at we have to ra ise. M� .: _ ROBLIN: Mr .

Cha irman , I must say that I agr ee wit h much th a t ha s bee n sa id on th e su bjec t of Hansar d thi s afte rno on . \ve ar e p l eased th at we to ok th e dec is ion to have a Hansard esta bl ished in this House so th ere co uld be a re cor d of th e rem arks th at th e mem bers ma ke in th e House , and must admi t th at th e re prod ucti on of those re marks th at ap pears in Han sar d is not per fect .' On th e oth er hand , I thi nk it 's a to lerable ef for t . It se ems •· to me , th at , few if any of th e ad dre ss e,� deli vered here are what' one might caJ,. l li ter ary works of ar t .

And in th e co urse of speak ing , one foll ows a speaki ng sty le rat h er th an a li terary sty le , wh ich me ans th at occas ionally you get interjec t ions and pa ren t hetical th ought s exp re sse d as you go along , th at you ne ver do in writ ing , but wh ich you do in speaki ng, and whic h, perh aps are a li tt le bi t hard to deci ph er, when som eone is li steni ng to th ose rem ar ks fro m a recor d or a tap e-re co rd ing mac hi ne afte rwar ds .

And wh ile I ca n't speak fro m di re ct kn owledge , I thi nk it is the en deavour of th e peop le who put Han sar d to geth er, to try an d reduc e wha t mi gh t be an ung ramm at ical se nt ence to so met hi ng a li ttle more sui ta ble , and ch op of f so me of th e da ngl ing

part ic ip les and tr a iling ph ra ses th at we leave arou nd as we speak in a de bat e such as thi s sor t . · In �ead ing Han sar d , I do not ice so me er rors , howeve r, mo st of th e one s th at I see are not impo rt an t . They do n't re ally effect t�e substance of wha t wa s sa id, but perh aps th ey expre ss it a li tt le ine legant ly , or th ey use a word th at th e sp eak er might rea lly have not wish ed to use , but the sense is th er e .

And I cer ta inly ha ve no ob je ct ion , I thi nk it all to th e goo d , th at th ose mem bers who feel th at th e sense of wha t th ey have sai d ha s be en; in an y way di stor ted , sh ould tak e advantage of th e moment bef ore th e Order s of th e Day , as so me ha ve don e , to ma ke th ose co �r ect ions . I am sure th at th ose who are in ch ar ge of Hansar d will tak e due not ice of what ha s been sai d here and ende avour to pr oduc e a mo re wp rkm anlihe doc ume nt .

And I suppo se th at if we are a li ttl e pa t ient with th em an d when th e next ses si on rolls alon g , when mo re exper ience ha s been ga th er ed , we can expect a be tter pr oduct . And I can ass ure th e mem bers of House th at it will be th e ai m of the 9

MR . ROBLIN (Continued) government, and I know the aim of those who are responsible for the actual work to improve the product that's turned out . I, of course, ·agree heartily with the remarks that have been offered by the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition about reading speeches . It's a reprehensible habit, as I have made it quite clear it1s one that I do not follow, although I confess to him, and I freely admit to anyone that wants to know, that I do prepare my importa nt speeches, or what, perhaps, I may be allowed to think of perhaps as bein g speeches of some value, at least to me .

And I say to the honourable members that I commend the practice of preparing speeches, I commend the practice of having notes when you wish to speak on any import ant matter, because it makes some of us a little more logical and a little less long winded than we otherwise are. MR . CAMPBELL: •••• another matter, and :Lt should be very appropriate before the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture speaks, I think, because I, just glancing through, thought I should raise the question of seeing to it that no fav ouritism is shown by the staff who are responsibl e for Hansard.

I notice on Page 7 that there 1 s an evidence of favour it ism because we find that one member of the House is mentioned here, just simply as Mr. Roblin,

whereas another member of the house is referred to as Honourable E.F. Willis, Q.C . And I think we should insist that reasonable fairness t·o ev�rybody should prevail and that no favou ritism should be·shown, regardless of the merits of the individuals involved . MR . ROBLIN: •••• I'll let the Honourable the First Minister stand on my dignity if he wants to . I made a mistake there, didn't I? The Honourable the Leader of the Oppositi on . I've been waiting for the time to do that and now it's come . HO� . GURNEY EVANS (Minister of Mines and Natural Resources) : On this same point, I think, Mr.

Chairman, it might be well to point out, that the first time that an honourable member enters a particula r debate, I think, that they endeavour to give a full title, for that person entering that series of speeches, but if there are interjections or interruptions, the seconu or third time that that person is quoted, I think it might just say Mr. So and So . MR. W. C. MILLER (Rhine land) : the honourable member for Seven Oaks •••• such as the reference that I quoted . HON. ERRICK WILLIS, Q.C . (Minister of Agriculture and Immigration) : Mr.

Chairman, I think there is a great lesson to here for young politicia ns like the honourable member for Swan River, because he has learned this early in his life that you're damned if you do and damned if you don1t, no matter how you spell it . MR. E. GUTTORMSON (St . George): Mr. Chairman, I would like 10

tvE�. GUTTORHSON (Continued) to offer a suggesti on for the Minister's consideratj on. In cases where there is an interjecti on during a speech unless the recording machine picks up the interj ect ion that they should drop the answer made by the speaker on his feet. Other wise , it doesn't make any sense whatsoever , but if you can put in the int erjecti on then I believ e it would be quite in order to put in his answer , but otherwise it leaves it meanin,c;le. ss. MR. CHAit�IAN: Res oluti on ill - �104 , 725. Reso luti on /11 passed. aesoluti on #2, Executive Council . Gift re Springhill , N.s.

Mine Disaster - $10,000 . MR. �;RAY : Mr. Chairman , what has been done by the govern ment to stimulate the public to con tribute? MR. ROBLIN: I think it's coming alon� very well indeed , Mr. Chairman. I have been watching the results of that and I think it's well over half a milli on dollars now, and I think it's coming on very well . MK. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman , I'd like to say a brief word on this.

I think it's admirable that we here in the Province of Man it oba, as elsewhere in the Dominio n, are recogni zing the catastro phe that happened this year and has happened in the past in Springhill , Nov a Sco tia . I think it is an indicati on, that we , the people of Canada , do recognize the trials and tribula tions of all people within our Dominion� It's a very admirable st ep , and I'm sure that no matter who happened to occupy the seats opposite , that this would have been done. MR. CHAIRMAN: t�esolut ion Number 3, Capital Supply. High ways , roads and related projects , structures and facil ities.

Construct ion and reconst ruct ion and all works incidental thereto , including acquisiti on of right -o f-way. MR. WILLIS: Mr. Chairman , if I might say a preliminary word , before detailing the program which we have on hand. May I say that while we .will detail today the largest pro gram in the history of the province , there will probably be as well a winter session , at which time , if the Opposition is kind , or unkind , whichever it is , if we are still here , there will be another road program as well , so that the balance will com e at that ti me .

We are intr oducing a program at this time , particularly in order that there may be an early start on roads next year. Indeed , we have hopes that some of those items which will be announced toda y will be partly constructed this fall , and certainly the bridges and drainage work will be done this year.

VJe believe that by announcing the road program now , that in many cases , we shall save �or e than one month in the spring , because , irrespective c:>f whether co ntracts are let this fall or not , we are goi ng to inform the contrac tors , we are going to adver tise in the news pap ers , our intenti on to call for contracts jn regard to va rious roads , ll

MR. WILLIS ( Cont inued ) with the result that even though we may call for contracts. in the mi ddle of Jan uary, or December , contractors wi ll already have been informed that they wi ll be asked for tenders; there fore they wi ll have a full and complete opportun ity to examine the road , the soil and the rest , and cons equently ma ke the ir bi ds on an accurate , reasonable and fair basis. Hav ing di scussed th is wi th the contractors , they are all entir ely in favour of th is method. They say it is fa ir.

They say too , that it wi ll save at least one month's construct ion in the spr ing , and they wi ll be able to get on wi th the ir contracts immed iately the frost is out of the so il. We have been do ing some planning in regard to planning , as well.

And we have in reasonably accurate and fi nal form our basis of approach , as far as planning is concerned , and we wi ll be sett ing up a separate planning di vi si on , whose only bus iness in effect , wi ll be the planning of roads , on a few years into the future and they wi ll then , as and when called for , turn over those plans to the construct ion department , who wi ll then proceed to build the roads. It is our expectat ion , as far as our highways are concern ed , that we· . wi ll at least double the number of si gns which there are on the hi ghways at the present time.

We are conv inced that there is a great lack of si gns on our roads and in the near future they wi ll at least be doubled. We feel too , that a number of the roads which were con structed in the past were not suff iciently strong , were not built wi th the proper sub-b ase. The foundat ion was not good enough for the trucks and heavy veh icles which the roads must carry and consequent ly , we have asked the engineers to plan , as far as the roads for next year are concerned , includ ing the present program , to plan to bu ild heav ier and stronger roads , where they have any doubt in regard to it.

And they are very happy to do so , because , it would have been the ir choice in the past to have built better roads if the fi nances had been ava ilable. We have suggested to them that they should build on the bas is where the road wi ll last for a durat ion of several years , and that they should never again build roads whi ch are cheap to buy and expens ive to maintain.

We in th is prov ince , in the past , have built roads , whic h some people thought we got a bargain contract in years gone by, and nearly all of those turned out to be the most expens ive roads that were ever built wi th in the Prov ince of Manitoba. Take for instance the road from Headingly west , the old road , there. It was built at a bargain pr ice , so they thought , and n.any of these bargai n prices , no matter what you buy , turn out to be otherw ise.

And si nce that time , until the concrete road was bu ilt , which should have been bu ilt , probably, many years before; but .s ince that time the up- keep and cost has been from 1200 to 1500 dollars per mi le , per year , to keep that road in the bad shape that it was always in. MR. ·G . MOLGAT ( Ste. Rose ) : Mr. Chairman wi ll the Honour able Mi nister permit a quest ion? MR. WILLIS: Delighted. 12

�lR. MOLGAT: was built ? Could he tell the !.IJlouse in what year that road MR . WILLIS: Well, I think it was built in about 1935 - about then . That's about the year. The imoort ant--year was not too important . If you want to ti e it down Mr. NacNa mara was then the Deputy Minister , because I remember that he showed great pride in th is

part icular road . Then again , we are go ing to have q large program of bridges ,

part icularly as far as wi nter emolo yment is concerned that you may have heard of them . And I th ink when the wi nte r sess ion comes on we shall urge upon you , if we are here, a better plan as far as bridges are concerned , whereby the prov ince wi ll pay a larger share of the cost of the more expens ive bridges , because I rec�ll that one mun ic ipal ity dur ing one year� when I was here before , .had three bridges break down , each one of them worth $200 ,000.

And what could a poor municipal ity do in regard to that problem , and the result was, of course , that two of them were down for severa l years , and the ot her one was bu ilt and the mun ic ipality was largely cr ippled as far as go ing across the ri ver was conc:erned. This fall we have already made permanent , I hope , a poli cy wherebY. :a pproaches into tow ns and vi llages from a nearby highway wi ll be built , wi th lOO per cent being paid by the prov ince . And the member for Emerson has in a resolutio n in regard to it .

May I say to him that's already fi rmly establ ished pol icy in the Department of Public Works . The fi rst road has already been built , that's the one into Carberry , off Number 1, and many wi ll fol low I hope , in reasonably quick succe ss ion , whereby the approaches from the highways wi ll be bu ilt into the to wns to connect wi th their st reet s on the same bas is as the road which they leave . You can't always be exact in regard to th at , but largely .th at has been the establ ished policy .

And when you go from Number 1, for instance , into Carberry, you go on asphalt of the same type and quality as the road from which you came . And in general that is t he policy which we intend to carry out , subject to some omi ss ions , perhaps , but very few . We are goi ng to have too , wherever we have four-l aned high ways , we wi ll have di vi ded highways and even some of those whic.h hav e already been built wi ll have di vi ders in them , for safety purposes of course , and also to speed up traff ic .

In co nnect ion wi th hi ghways as well ; the new Drainage and Conservation 13oar.d, which wi ll have control of those matters , wi ll be able to ass ist hi ghways in a way which was never done before , by establ ishing proper drainage as far as the highways are concerned at the ti me that the highways are built , and that has not been th e pract ice in the past . And so wi th these prelim inary remarks I'd li ke to say but one more word I thi nk , I see I have one rrore not e there .

I have di scussed wi th the chief engineers , the roads which, in the Prov inc� of Manitoba , hav e fa iled , as they say , and have broken down prematurely . We hav e tr ied to establish the reasons why those roads broke down when they di d, and we have tr ied to esta blish new polici es whereby in the future under si mi lar 13

MR . WILLIS (Continued) circumstances they would not break down in the way in which they have broken down now . In ot her W0rds, they would have a better fo undation, which I warn the taxpayers, of course, will cost somewhat more money, but which in the long run will cos t them much less money than the present roads, such as the road west from Headingley, which is one of the most expensive roads in the Province of Manit oba. · ··For purposes of comparis on the pro,::,ram which I shall outl ine to you is one for 33 milli on dollars of provincia l money .

In the program which was brought forth by the previous government and announced in the, yes, in Jan uary or F.ebruary of this year, that program was one which on a comparable basis was slightly more than 21 milli on,

whereas this one is a program of 33 mill ion . And if you wanted to establish it rather more closely, you would have a comparison there of about the gross of some 23 milli on as compared with 35 million . The gross as far as all the roads and drai nage are concerned . Today the program which will be announced is entirely for trunk highways, and if perchance your bit of road is not incl uded, do not immedia tely break into tears because that may be inc luded, although not mentioned, because these are trunk highways . And so following the discus sion today , Mr.

Chairman, I trust I shall be forgiven if I refer to my notes because there are 125 items, and I might perchance make a mistake or have an omiss ion . MR . CAMPBELL: M·r. Speaker, I'd not only be prepared to forgive my honourable friend for sticking very closely to his notes but, in addition to that, would he furnish the members of the House with copies of the notes? \Vhen he has finished, of course. MR. WILLIS: I think it is not possible that we should have them .

These are merely ty ped, but I wish to assure the Leader of the Opposition that they have been fully di spensed to the press, and I think, come the morning paper, you'll have every detail in there which I have here. MR. PAULLEY: Will they be accurate? MR . WILLIS: The press is almost always accurate . I've never had any trouble with them . Particularly in regard to • ••• MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Speaker, or Mr. Chairman, can I ask the :Minister a questi on'? If that inform ation is ava ilable to the Press, would it also be made avai lable to members of the House at the same time? MR .

WILLIS: It has never been made ava ilable to the membe.rs in the 23 years that I have been here, and consequently we didn't think it was necessary here, because, this list is a very long list, and if you have to wait but a few hours to see it in the paper, I think, and I trust, that you will not be inconvenienced to too great a degree, and that tomorrow will build you as many 14

MR . WILLIS ( Continued ) roads as tod ay. MR . CAMPBELLi Mr. Chairman, l take it, if that' s the understanding, then certainly it will not be intended to wind up this sitt ing of the committee today. In ot her words we'll be going back into committee, because obviously we wouldn't be in a position to discuss this without having a copy of the program before us. HR. ROBLIN: Well I don't wish to rely to o heavily on my memory here, but my recollect ion is that we discussed it without any notes of this sort on previous occasi ons and got it to the commi tte e without any di fficult y when we were in Opposit ion.

It would be my intent ion that when the committee finished with the business, to report . MR . CAJI1PBELL: Mr. Chairman, the Honourable Leader of the House says that it was our pract ice to discuss it in commit te e, but if you will remember that in these times, the .road, the Department of Public Works estimat es, in particular the road program, took a matte r of 1, 2, 3 or 4 days, covering sev eral sit t ings, and I am sure that never in the tim e that I sat over there, posit ively never, di d we have these placed before us and wind up the •••• MR. W. LUCKO ( Springfield ) ,: Mr.

Chairman I noted down that the Mini ste r of Highways told us that there was no such a thing as st atements prepared . I would like to remind him, and I will show him one--I'll show him f0r the back years . Here it is . That's what was given by the Minister of Public Works when we di scussed the program of highways, the Province of Manit 9ba proposed highway program, 1957 - 58, the same thing 1958 - 59, and here is a copy of it , you can have it . We've always had it . The Press got one and the members couldn't get one . That' s the size of the business running in this House .• MR . ' GUTTORHSON: Mr .

Chairman, may I ask the Minister a question for purposes of clarific at ion? Did I unders tand him to say that some of the money that we are considering now is going to be spent this year? And anot her subsequent quest ion . Did he say that the roads leading int o to wns would be of the same st andard as the highway h�Eiding int o the town, or past the to wn that is, but will it be the same. stand ard leading int o the town? MR. WILLIS: That is right . And what is your first quest ion? MR .

GUT"lrORJMSON: Is some of i:tJh:is money being spent now on road :projects cn• bridges, or is ::tt being c,ontemplated th at it be sp13nt this year? MR. WILLIS: It's being aut horized novv, we hope, and then some o:f it will be spent this fall, some of it will be spent 15

M� . WILLIS (Continued) next spring •• •••• ••••••••• Now I do have four copies here, and I'd be glad to give them to the leaders of the parties if they'd like to have them , but that's as many as v.re have and while the honourable gentlemen makes a positive statement in regard to it, I know that when I sat opposite there that usually I did get a statement but it was usually two or three days after the announcement was made, and that's the way it was as rar as I was concerned . I never had one to the best of my knowledge.

I never had one to follow and I was all the time sitting over on that side, and I'll be glad to distribute these four copies . We're not trying to hide any thing at all, or ••••• MR . T. P. HILLHOUSE, Q.C. (Selkirk): Mr. Chairman is it possible to have photostatic copies of these schedules run off? I understand we have those; machines available in the building, and I understand too, that it doesn't take very long to put them through. MR . WILLIS: We'll be glad to give you any service that we have a capacity to perform. MR . CAMPBELL: Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to suggest that that be done because really I wouldn't want to take the responsibility for making all the comments that could be made with regard to these , and I seriously urge that every member of the House be given a copy before we proceed. Mr. Chairman, I hay,e no objection at all to the honourable the Minister proceeding with his statement now but I think before we are expected to proceed with it, we should have copies of this before us. MR . WILLIS: We are at your service and we will try to do our best. I have brought down estimates here ten years in succession and never did it before .

MR . CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I hesitate to interrupt my honourable friend again but my rememberance is very clear on this that we handed out before we asked the members to proceed with the discussion of the program, we handed out something of this kind . .The thing that my honourable friend asked for and that was not given was estimates of the cost on the different projects; and it was felt that it was not wise to give estimates of the cost because that was to a considerable extent giving information to those who might be tendering on the various con struction projects .

But as far as this was concerned, I'm sure that we did have it . MR . WILLIS: I think, Mr. Chairman, that further discussion will probably not give us any more progress, and with your permission I would like to read the

schedule . Trans Canada (East) Archibald and Trunk Highway lE - Channelization; Trans Canada {\'lest) - 3. 2 miles Camp J.VI;omitou Road - Headingley, Concrete Pavem ent . And when I read the heading like that it '.;::.11 foll ow 16

M�. WILLIS (Continued) along. In other word s, the next one will be Trans Canada (Hest) until we indicate the difference . This is Trans Canada (\�e st) 3�. 0 mi les Portage la Prairie- Sidney, Seeding and Draina ge; 10. 7 mi les Brandon-Kemhay, Seal Coating and Seeding; 2. 6 mil es 18th Street Access Road, Grading, Gravelling and:; hloride; Trans-Can ada Highway to the SeirnKiver 5. 25 mi les, grading.and �rav elli ng; South Perimeter l�oad, :. N. :z. Overpa ss and Traffic Interchange; completion of the Seine �iver dridge .

Thi s is the south Perimeter .9 mi les St . lvlary's Road to the ited River, concrete pavement; Red .River to at the south of the univer si ty there, the compl etioh of the R.ed �iver Bridge . 1. 9 miles Red River to Vv'averley Street, concrete pavement, 6. 7 mi les; \IJR.verley Street to Oak Bluff, completion of concrete pavement; 8 •. 4 miles, Oak Bluff to Portage Avenue, concrete pave ment; completing of Wilke s Avenue Overpa ss; completion of As siniboine River Bridge; Highway No . 2, 15. 8 mi les, P.T.H . i/18 to ;110 at West of Wawanesa, addition al gravel and double prime; Souris River Bridge, the completi on of the bridge; 9. 1 mi les, t.l1e Town of Souris to P.

T. H. No. 21, Bituminous Mat; 21 .3 mi les, Pipestone to Saskatchewan Boundary, Seal Coat; Highway No. 3, 31 mil es, Sanford to Carman, addition al Gravel and Double Prime; 2l� rmiles Carn�n to P.T .H. No. 14, base cour se and bituminous mat; four mil es P.T.H. No. 17 West, Grading, Grav elli ng and Structure s; 20. 5 n1iles Cartwright to Killarney, Seal Coat; 18. 5 miles Kil larney to P.T.H.

No. 10, Base cou rse a:nd Bitur.J.inous J.vlat; ll mi les \oJhitewater Corner to Deloraine - additional gravel and double prime; 2h. 5 miles Deloraine -Mel ita , shoulder grav el and Seal Coat; 4 East - 2 � mi les Lockport to Beausejour - ba se cour se and bi tuminou s mat; 4 West - 2. 4 miles Sharpe Boulevard to Kirkfield Park � Concrete pavement; 22 .6 miles Gladstone to Neepawa - grading, gravell ing and struct ures; 12. 6 mi les Gladstone to Arden Ridge, Asphalt Stabil ization; 18 miles Newdale to Shoal Lake, Seal Coat; 27. 5 mi les Shoal Lake to Foxwarren, base cour se and bituminou s mat ; 20. 1 mil es Foxwarren to �u ssell, comp let ion of the bi tuminous mat; Highway No . 5 20 .6 miles Eden to Norgate, Seal Coat; 19 miles Norgate Corner to North of Laurier, base cour se and bituminous mat; 20 .8 mil es, North of Lauri er to the Ochre River, base cour se and bituminous mat; 12. 3 miles Ochre River to P.

T.H .

No. 10, additi onal gravel and chloride; 25 mi les Gilbert Plains to Shortda le, base cour se and bituminous mat; 5.5 mi les Roblin West, additional ;ravel and double prime; 3. 5 mil es Assiniboine Valle y to West of i{oblin, gradi ng, grav elli ng and structu res; Highway No . 6, 5. 2 mi les North Erik sdale to �1ulvih il l, grading and gravel ling; Highway No . 7, 11. 5 mi les Komarno to Fraserwood, base cour se and bituminous mat; 15. 2 mil es Chatfi eld to Broad Val ley, additional gravel and chloride; Highway No •. 8, H5. 4 miles North Perimeter to Clandeboye Corner, Seal Coat ; 29. 8 miles · clandeboyeto Gimli, base course and bituminous mat; 18 mil es Gimli to P.

T.H . No . 68, chloride trea tment; 7. 5 mil es P. T.H . 6� to Riverton, additio nal gravel and chloride; Old No . 8 5. 3 mil es Gimli to Camp Horton, base cour se and bitumi nou s mat; Highway No . 9, 1. 6 mil es North Kildonan, concrete pavement; 2. 5 miles South Boundary of East St . Paul to Hodinott Road, grading; 17

Mi� . WILLIS ( Cont inued ) 5 mi les Selkirk Bypass junct ion with No . 9, base course and bit umin ous mat ; 11 .1 mi les Winnipeg Beach to Gim li ; Hiijhway No . 10, Minnedo sa River to the Va lley , draina ge ; 17 .2 miles Cameron School to P.T.H . No . 45 , base cou rse and bitumin ous mat ; 9.6 mi les P. T. H.

No . 45 Riding Mountain Nati onal Park, Seal Coat ; 17 miles North Gate Park - Ashvil le Ju nct ion , shoulder cons truc tion ; North Duck River , cons truction of a bridge ; 28 .4 mi les Swan R.iver to Birch River , Seal Coat; 15 .5 mi les Birch River to Mafeking , comple tion of grading and base cou rse and bit umi nous mat ; 17 mil es Mafeking to Red Deer �. iver , grading , gravel ling and st ruct ure ; 23 mil es Red Deer River to Overf lowing River , Grading and (�ravel ling ; 18 miles Overf lowing River to North of the bog, grading and. gravel li ng ; 20 mil es North of the Bog to North of Township 52, grading and gravel ling ; 24 miles North Boundry Township 52 to The Pas, grading , gravel li ng and struc tur es ; 25 mil es Atik to Cranberry-Por tage, addit ional gravel and chloride , completion of grading and gravel ling ; 17 mi les Cranberry-P ortage to East Bakers Narrows, grading , gravel li ng and ch lori de ; 20 .3 miles East Bake rs Narrows to Fl in Flon , base course and bit umin ous mat; 20 miles P.T .H .

No . 1 East to P. T.H. No . 4, additi onal gravel and double prime ; 15 .8 mi les Brookfie ld Corner to McArthur Falls , base and bi tum ino us mat ; 12 .2 mil es McArthur Falls to St. George , grading ,grav elling and st ructur es ; Highway No . 12 , 10 .1 miles Sprague to Middleb oro , grading , gravel ling and structure s; 6.5 m-iles South Ju nct ion to Sprague , addit iona l gravel and .c hloride ; 13. 5 mi les Piney Corner to South Junct io n, base cour se and bitumin ous mat; 29 mil es Zhoda Corner to Piney Corner, shoulder gravel and seal coat ; 12 mi les P.T.H .

No . 1 East to St einbach , bitumin ous mat; 13 mil es P.T. H. No . 1 East to Anola, addit ional gravel and chloride ; 53. 4 miles P. T.H. No . 4 East to Vi ctoria Beach, Seal Coat ; and in the vicinity of the Brokenhead River , const ructi on of a bridge ; 16 mi les Belair to Pine Falls , addit ional gravel and chloride ; Tovm of Carman, diver sion channel and structure s; 11 .4 Carman to Elm Creek , Seal Coat ; 12 .1 mil es P. T.H .

No . 2 Trans-C anada Highway Elm Creek v Nort h, gradi ng , gravellin g and structure s; Highway No . 15 , 13 mil es Transcona to Anola� base course and bi tumin ous mat ; 12 .8 mi les Anola to Nourse , grading and gravel ling ; Highway No . 1.7., 9.6 Miles P.T.H . No . 3 to the United St ates Boundary , grading , grav elli ng and structur es ; No . 18 , 6 mil es U. S. Boundary to P.T.H . No . 3, seal coat ; 13. 8 mi les Kil larney to Ninette , addit ion a l gravel and double prime ; 1.2 mi les Ninette South Hi ll, grading and gravel li ng ; ll mi les P.T .H . 23 to P.T.H .

No . 2 Ninett e North, grading , gravell ing and structur es ; Highway No . 19 , 3 miles P.T. H.

No . 5 to Riding Mountain Nati onal Park, grading , gravel ling and structures ; Hi ghway 19 .4 miles at Ochre River , bridge and approaches ; Highway No. 20 , 4.5 miles Ochre River to Ochre Beach , grading and gravel ling ; 2. 5 miles Ochre Beach to Dauphin Beach , grading and :gravel ling ; • 75, three- quarters of a mile Va lley River Bridge , grading , grav elli ng and structu re ; 7.6 mil es Cowan East , §';rading and grav elling ; 14 .8 mil es Camp erv ille West, addit ional gravel and chloride ; 20 miles Winn ipego sis North , grading and gravell ing ; Hir;hway No . 21 12 .3 mi les United States Boundary to P.T .H .

No . 3, grading , grav elli ng and structure s; 11 .2 mi les 18

MR. WILLIS (Co nt inued ) P.T.H .

No. 2 to th e Trans -Ca nada High way - add it ional gravel and dou ble prim e ; 4.7 mi les Kent on Cor ner to Sout h Boun dar y Rural Mun ic ipal ity of Ham iota - gr ad ing and gr av ell ing ; 14 .6 mi les Sout h Bou ndary Ham iot a to McC onne ll Co rner - co mpl et ion of grad ing , add it ional grave l an d do uble prim e ; ll mi les McConnell Co rner to Shoal Lake - gr ad ing , gr ave ll ing an d st ruct ure s; High way No . 23 . 19 .6 mi les Mo rri s to Myrt le - gr ad ing , gr ave ll ing and str ucture s; 9.8 mi les Myrt le to Jo rdan - add it iona l gravel and double pr ime ; 15 .7 mi les Alt amont to P.

T. H. No. 34 - add it ional grav e l and double pri me ; 21 .2 miles P.T.H . No . 34 to Ba ldur - grad ing ,g ravelli ng and str uctur es ; 16 .4 miles P. T.H . No. 18 to No . 10 - grad ing , grave ll ing and st ructure s; Oak Ri ver - co nstr uc ti on of th e bri dge and appro ach e s; High way No . 28 -- Oak Ri ve r is on High way No. 24.

Highway No . 28. 6 mi les Car t w ri ght Sout h add it ional gravel and do uble prim e ; Highway No . 31 . l4 e3 mi les No. 3 Highway to Un it ed Sta tes Boundar y at Viindyga tes - co mpl et ion of grad ing , gravel an d doubl e pri me ; Highway No. 34 . 18 mi les Gl adst one to Aust in - gr ad ing , grave ll ing and st ructure s; Highway No . 41 . 21 mi les Bi rt le to Shoal Lake - grad ing and gravell ing ; Highway No. 45 . 14 mi les Junct ion P.T.H . No.4 to Angu svi lle - gr ad ing and gra vell ing ; Highway No .

SO. 6 · mi les at Al onsa - gr ad ing and gr av ell ing ; 7.5 mi les Monroe Gra de-Si lve r Creek, that 's nort h of Amar ant h - gr avel and pri me ; Highway No. 52 . 13 mi le s P. T. H . No. 59 to St ei nbach - add it ional gravel and ch lori de ; 8 miles St ei nbach to La Broq ueri e - grave l sh oul ders and se al coat ; Highway 59 . 9.4 mi les . Morden-Sp rague to Un it ed Stat es Boundary co mplet ion of gr ad ing ; 26 mi les St . Malo to Un it ed Stat es Boun dar y - add it ional gravel and ch lori de ; 8 mi les St . Pi er re to St .

Ma lo - se al co at ; 12 mile s Warren 's Cor ner to th e Ma nn ing Canal - co ncre t e pavem en t ; 2.7 5 mi les P.T.H . No. 59A to Wa rren 's Cor ne r - se al co at ; 8. 8 mi les Bi rd s Hill to P. T .H . No. 4 - sh oul der gravel and se al co at ; 14 .5 mi les P.T.H . No. 4 to Sout h of Li ba u - add i ti ona l gravel and ch lori de ; 16 mi les Sout h of Libau to Gull La ke grad ing , gravell ing and st ructure s; Highway No. 81 . P. T.H . No. 75 to Un it ed St at es Boundary - ba se co ur se and co nc ret e pavement ; High way No. 83 . Un it ed St at es Bo undar y to P.T .H .

No . 3 - add it ion al gravel and dou ble pr ime ; 40 .3 mi les Me li ta to Virden - base co urs e and bi tu mi nous mat ; Highway 83 . 2 mi le s Ma ryfield Road to Vi rden By-pass - bi tu mi nous mat ; 25 mi les As si ni bo ine Vall ey to Bi rt le - base and bi tu mi nous mat ; 6.5 mi les Bi rt le to P. T.H .

No . 4 - dou ble pri me ; ten mi le s In gl is Cor ne r to Dro ps more- grad ing , grav elli ng and st ruc ture s; 12 .5 mi les Dro ps mo re to Robl in - grad ing , gravell ing an d st ructure s; 12 .3 mi les San Cla ra to Ma dge Lake - add it ional grave l and do ubl e pr ime ; 15 .5 mi les Ma� Lake to Beni to gr ad ing , gr avell ing and str uctur es ; 23 mi les Swan Ri ver to Beni to base course and bi tu mi nous mat and sh oul ders ; Highway No . 89. Fi ve mi les Piney to Un ite d Stat es Bound ar y - ba se co urse an d bi tu minous ma t.

And he re are mis cell aneous it ems : Whit emout h Ri ve r Bri dge compl et ion of th e vJh it emo ut h River Bri dge ; 12 mi les Red River to Ri dgevi lle Cor ner - add it ional gr avel an d chlor ide ; 9. 2 mi les Ridgevi lle Cor ner to P.T. H . No . S9 - grad ing , gravell ing and st ruc tur es ; 5 miles Beaus ejo ur West - P. T.H. No . 12 Sout h - gr adi ng and 19

MR . WILLiS ( Co nt inued ) gr avell ing ; 6.9 mi les Broad Valley to Fi sh er Branch - gr ad ing , gravell ing and st ruct ur e s; 2 mi les Giml i to th e Giml i Ai rport - grad ing , grave ll ing and ch lori de ; 16 .4 mi les Nort h Fra ser wood to Ar bor g - add it ional gr ave l- and ch lori de ; 5 mi les Si f'ton to P�T. H .

No. 20 - gr ad ing and gr avell ing ; 5 miles River to n to We st Ferry Land ing - reconstr uct ion ; 4 mi les Fish er Branch East - rec ons tr uct ion ; 6. 1 mi les Seddons Corner to th e Ra dar Sta t ion - grad ing and gravel li ng ; l mile Mar yf'ield Road - grad ing , gr avell ing and st ructure s; 3 mi les Kent on to Virden Road - gr ad ing and grav ell ing ; 1.5 mi les P.T. H. No. 23 to St . Leon - gr ad ing and gr avell ing ; 2.8 mi les :for Ac cess Roads - Ponem ah, Whyt ewold , Mat lock and Giml i; 16 mi les LaRiv iere Sout h to Unit ed Stat es - gr ad ing and gravell ing .

Total est imat ed cos t of' co mplet e prog ram - 33 mi ll ion dolla rs. 20

NR . PAULL.I::Y: hr . Spea ker , it se ems to me as t.ho ugh the Honourable th e Minis ter ha s outli ned qu it e an am bit iou s pro gram for nP-xt year , an d part of this year, I nr es ume , de pe ndi n� on wha t th e weather will he , and al so , of' cou rse , the type of co nstr uc ti on. I would li ke to ask on e or bvo que st ions of th e Ninister in co n ne ct ion with th e list th at he ha s �iven to us .

How man y , if any , of th e pr oj ects th at are li ste d in th is li st before us , are ·carry ave rs of pro grams that had not bee n co mp lete d before or wh ic h hnd bee n con t. empl At ed bef'ore and no t pr oce eded with? I th ink it would be of int erest to th e Commi ttee to kn ow th at . It mi ght be th at th e Mi nister won 't have this at his fi ng ert j_ns at th e pr eA en t ti me and I'd be qu ite nr ep ar ed , an d I'm sure oth e r Members would also , for hi m .to submit th at infor matio n .

And wh ile we 're deal ing with the broad que st ion of roa ds , it is tr ue , as the Mini s ter sai d , th at mo st of th ese deal with th e que st ion of tru nk hi ghway s. And in his on eni ng re ma rk , th e Min ister ha s ass ured us that th ese ro ads wi ll ev entually be we ll ma rked with si gns th at th ey will be str onger ro ads and won 't be base men t barg ain roads . And I th ink th at we can ap preci ate full y the des irah i1ity th at that sh onld be ca rried fo rward .

I would li ke to sug ge st t.o the Minis ter , in th e bu ild ing of all of th ese tr unk roads , and in dee d, al so, in many of our other tr unk hi ghway s , that we ha ve in th e pr es en t , in th e Province , that ver y se r ious co ns ider at ion be given th at wh ere th e hig hway s cro ss ra ilroa ds , th at. in th e constr uc ti on, th at ampl e or ov isio n is ma de to pr ovide for rai lway si gn als of the se mipho re. or flas hin g tyne . I noted "1ome mont hs arro , that the Fede ral Gove rnment · ha s upped it s co ntr ibut ions for th is ve ry pur pose .

I know th at in my own cons tit ue ncy of Ra disson, and po s Aihlv , Mr . Cha irman, th at the pr og ram out li ned by th e .Minister do esn 't inclu de many of th e pr oble ms th at we have th ere , but we do ha ve a ver y , ver y p r ess ing nr oble m of th e lac k of rai lway sig na ls on many of our si de roa ds as well as our tr unk ro ads . And I ma ke an earne st appea l to the Ninis ter th at very serio us co ns iderat ion be given in th e constru ct ion of th ese tr unk hig hway s to th e pr o vis ion of warn ing sig nals to th ose th at are us ing our hi ghway s.

Also , I would li ke to dra w to th e att en t ion of th e Min ister at this ti me , wh ile ,a t th e nr esen t ti me we are not able to lay on a man whe re exa ctly th ese roads are , th at in any nr o gram of road const ruc ti on th at is undertaken in th e Province in the near futu re, that he sh ould r;et tog ether �.vith th e Hinis ter of Educat ion to make amnly sure th at th e roads th at are be ing con st ruc ted , are con structed in th ose areas wh ere th er e is a pa rt ic ular ne ed for ade quat e access roa ds to th e pro po sed new sch ool di visi ons .

I read >·lith int erest the other day , th at whe reas we her e in Manitob a have so m·e111 rhat le ss th an 6, 000 mile s of road , graded and grav elle d , our si ster pr ovince to th e we st ha s so mewha t in exce ss of 35 ,0 00 mi les of �raded and gra ve lled roa ds. .. I do ap pre ci ate the fact that in th e Province of Sask at ch ewan , as I re ad th e ar ti cle , th ere wa s on ly on e mile of concrete road , and we hav e sev eral here in th e pr ovin ce .

But I do th ink the effort made in Sask at ch ewan wa s on a ••••• bas is , in or der to acc ommodate the lar�er sc ho ol areas that th ey have in the Province of Man itoba . And I th ink th at th e Govern me nt an d the Min is te r, in cons ider ing an y ro ad pro gram , with it s acco mpan y inr>� hu . .o:e exp en diture , sh ould 21

1-lR. PAULLEY (C ont inu ed ) take due cons ider at io n of the Probl ems that we are going to be faced with in Manit oba on th e adon t ion by the var io us s� hool di vi si ons of the lar� er sec ondary sc hool are as . A� ain , Mr . Chairman , I say that we hav en' t had an ample op Po rtu nity to st udy the fu ll loc at ions of these highways . Many of them co me to us as we read th e re port . We will have to pive fur ther st udy , I am su re , to them .

I almost was te mp ted , when I heard the Nin ister talk ing of his pr o�=Tram , that it mig ht appear to .some as be ing a little wind ow dre ss ing, but �.re' ve had that in the past before and I' m rmre the Mini ster doesn 't take a :reMark of that ki nd fro m me as be ing un ki ndly . But a� ai n, I wo uld ask the Mini ster to �ive us an op por tunit y of st udy ing this .

I was very pl eased to hear his op enin g re marks in con ne ct i6n wit h si gns and I ho pe that he doe s include in th e �a teg ory of sig ns , so methin g which he and his colleaP" ue s in on � ositio n br ought to th e atten t ion of the Hous e in years past , that the hi ghways be ade quat el y mEJT>ked on th ei r centre strip s in order to help lessen the acci den ts which we are having here , as else where , in Canada . I th ink , lv'tr .

Chairman, that ' 9. all the re marks which I'l l make at this ti me �, I sug ge Rt that th ey are constr uct ive sugge stio ns to th e Minister and that he will take the m under due consider ation . MR . BE ND : Mr . Sneak er , there we re •••• it 's impo ssi ble to st udy this pr og ram in the few minut es that we 'v e had but there are three que stions that I· would li ke to ask the Minist er . No . l- I want to make sure that I heard him ri ght with resp ec t to to wns ly in' "'_' off all tr unk highway s in Manit oba .

Is my underst anding cor rec t that any to wn ly ing off a tr unk hi ghway will have an access road built int o it of the same 1:1tandards as the hig hway it self? No . 2 - How many , if any, of the se pro je cts placed in fron t of UFl to day are alre ady co mo let ed? An d No . 3 - Are th ere any of these pr o.iec ts that we re on the highway pro gram as pr es ented to the Ho use in the last reg ular sess ion? lv1R. JOBIN : Mr . Chairman, I hA ve one or two que st ions I' d like to ask the Min ister and one ob ser vat ion .

Fi rst of all , I would li ke to po int out, in my fi rst que stion , or pr ef ace it by sayi ng, it was a po lic y of the for mer Go vern men t to award con tra ct s exclus ivel y and solel y to th e lo west bidd er . i!Vill t,,.,at po li cy con ti nue or does the pr e.se nt G0vernrnent inten d to offer so me ty pe of - pr otec t ion to our lo cal contrac t or s, hoth road con tractors and br id� e buil der.s? Th e other que st ion is , how does the Go vern me nt prop ose to ra ise this 33 mil li on dollars? Is it all to be borro we d?

Thi rd , and rather the po int that I wi sh to make is th at this is a su bstan ti al , a very su bsta nt ial amount of money to be sp ent. on road wo rk . I'm sur pri sed th at the .t-•ani ster sai d a while aP" o that th ey will be sett ing up a sep arate plannin g co mmissi on , and I ''T ende r, MT> . Chair man -- or divis io n -- I v-ronder why the haste to br ing in th is bud �e t wi th out that nartic ular planning . A nd I say that narti cu larly be caus e the Min iste r , in this Ho use on many occas ion s , has talked about the need of planning , and I agree with him.

And I would also po int out to him t:hat last yea r the th en Minister of 22

MR . JOBIN ( Con t inue

d) Public Wnrks di d la v out a plan for the futn re an d I su r:r,gest it 1 s a li ttle un rea so na ble for us to be as ked to vote 3� mill ion dollars wit hout th e ove rall pl ans he ing �iven to us .

I re alize he 's nn ly ·b een in power for four mon t hs but I woul d re min d th e House that any on e of 11s tha t had sug ge sted over the ye ars that we sh ould hav e "'O rn e defi nite road in \.vhich we ar e r.:: oi ng an d planning for t,he futur e, t.hat an y one of U"' th at fo und our se lve s in his po si t ion sh ould have , in th at fo ur months , been able to produce th at supr eme and th at ov erall plan . MR. GUTTO RM.SON: 1-ir . Cha ir man, as I underst ood th e J:v!i nister , th e pr og ram he 's ou tl ined he re to day wi ll be started this fa ll an d carr ied nn into next year .

Does the Minister pl an to hri ng , to exp an d this pro gram at th e next ses si on, if an d when there is one ? I notice on Nn . 6 hi �hway th at, the l•linister has - wa s to bu ild 5. 2 miles of ne w con str uction at �ul vihill and Eri ksd ale . I s no oth er road wo rk Dl anned on th at hi ghwav next year? l•iR. WILLIS : Mr . Cha ir man, perhaps I co uld ge t •••• MR.

CAMPBELL : • •• If the questio ns th a t. are be ing as ked pr op erly , so th at - th ere wi ll be so ma ny of th em th at I mig ht not get the on portunity to make my n:e ne ral re marks alon g th e li ne s that th e Honou rable th e Mi nister did . I hnue we can take it fo r gr an ted th at arra ngement s have been put into mot ion al read y to get conie s for all th e Membe rs of th e Hnu se . I t,hin k it wo uld be very hel nful if we had the m for co nt in ui ni'Y' th e disc ussio n .

Now, I ,�ras r-- oi ng to ma ke th e "'ame po in t t.ba t ha s a 1 read y been ma de , th at aft,er all th e brave words of my honou rable fr iend , wh en he IIITas in Onp osi ti on , ab out th e need for nl annin g , that it see ms to me that this ulan foll � ws just abo ut ex actl y al ong the plan that th e pr evio us Govern ment had lai d out .

It see ms to me th at th ere is on this nrog ram so me \�rork th at 1 s alre ady und er way ; perhaps so me th at 's alr ead y co mp leted ; and th at , in other cases , it 's very defi nitel y a con tin ua ti on of tbe pl an that wa s alread y en dorsed by this Ho use at. the last sess ion . And , ann ar en tl y , th at pl an ha s been foun d to be pr ett y P:"ood bec au s e it see ms to rne that it dunl ica tes part of it , th en follo ws co mpl etel y alo ng th e li ne of a qr eat deal mor e of it .

Now, the pl ac e th at th e Honoura ble Niri ister says th ough , th at he int en ds to break new gr ou nd , is th at th ey 'r e go ing to ha ve an ea rl y st art nex t sp ri ng . We ll, I sug ge st to yon , Mr . Ch a ir ma n, I1 m not a - I' m not an expert on cons tr uct ion ma t.ters , but I su gge st to yo u th at tbat li es en ti rel v wi thi n th e real m of pr oviden ce . It '"' .iust ac cording to wha t ki nd of a sp r ing '"'e ha ve . whe th er th ere can or can nnt . he const ru ct ion s+.art .ed so ea rly as my honou rable fr ien d sugr;ests .

And th e same with rei'Y'ard to the fa ll - not on th e br id��e s, pe r ha ns , and so me of th ese oth er pr o nasa ls , but as far as th e road wo rk is concern ed . And t.he l\lin ister di d not tel l us , or at le ast it es caped my no ti ce if he did , that th e survey ing work and th e det .ails tha t are ne ces sa ry in order to call for ten ders has alread y been do ne or ca n be done in order to have th e infor mati on th at th e ca ll for te nd ers req ui res . And if th at 's been done , it must have been done wb ile th e pr es en t yea r 's 23

MR. CAMPBELL ( Continued ) nro�ram was going on. If that is the fa r-t, then the great shnrtage of techni cal help that my honourable friend has talked about ha� apparently not impeded the progress duri ng the )'ear and I didn't notice that the Minister menti oned whether this year's work waR larr"ely or wholly comnleted.

Now, if there's a -- seei ng that the most of Manitoba has had a pretty dry summer , and up to dat e a pretty dry fall , it might be that in a dry spring that work could be constructed earlier than haR been done in the past, but I thin k it depends a great deal more on the weather than it does on the plans that my honourable friend makes. As far as the doubli ng o:f the signs is concerned , I have no comment to make at all. If that's recornmended by the experts on road building , I have no object ion to that.

But if my honourable fr iend suggests , as he has on ot her occasi ons in this House , that we're now going to build heavier and stro nger roads than in the past , I want to point out to him that , as wi th a good many other thi ngs, the program that was carried on in the past was not just somethi ng that was arrived at by accident. It waR a considered program and it was carried on in ' the light of the amount of money that was available , tryi ng to str etch it oyer to serve as many of the people of the Province as nossible .

When my honburable friend talks about heavier and str onger roads in presumably in all ci rcumstances , I think he wi ll find , in fact I think at a very quick glance at these, that the program that has been laid before us that he wi ll find that some of the same kind of work wi ll be carried on where the urogram wi ll not be heavi er and strong er, wi ll not ' contem plate heav ier and st ronger roads than before.

But simply carrying on the same policy of trying to st retch the dust-f ree milea ;;e as far .as possible even though it's known that those roads �� ill break up in due course . �� en, my honourable fri end says that the engin eers themselves have said that if the fina nces had been ava ilab le that better roads would have been buil t, I think that's not correct. It mi ght be in some individu al in sta nce .

I would like to remind my honourable friend , I think that public ac counts wi ll bear out the fact that wr1en he was Minister in charge of the road program here many, many years ago, that there was a larger unexpended balance at the end of the year than there eve r was before or si nce . In other words , he di dn't even come close to spending the amount of money that was available to him and had been appropriated by the House here.

Surely, surely, if he was r:etting adv ice from the engineers at that time , he would have bui lt a dif ferent type of road , if that was his feeling then and the engineer's feeli ng. So, Mr. Chairman, the fact is , I menti oned the ot her day , I'm sure this is - was borne out by the experience of ot her people, that you find that the build ing of roads is a progressi ve science like a lot of ot hers and that the heav ier and str onger roads that my honourable friend speaks of now are a devel opment of comparat ive ly recent ti n1es, and we have been following that same kind of a program wi th the main roads .

But I'm sure that my honourable friend is not going to foll ow that program on all the mileage that he's dealt wi th here this aftern oon . I think it is rat her misleading for the honourable gentleman to suggest that in such broad terms as that, that these heav ie r and st ronger roads are going to be 24

NR . CAMPBELL ( Con t inu ed } the po lic y . Of cou rse , the Govern men t , of cou rse th e Den artmen t should ke ep un to th e new adv ances but they can 't do that with all th e mileag e at one ti me or else it will run to a great deal more than $13 , 000, 000 .0 0 that he is ta lk ing ab out now . He has so me ver y unkind thin gs to say about the old number 1 highway, or the pr es ent number 4, we st , as he has had bef ore , yet , he ment ioned when the ques t ion was asked if it was built back in the ''30' R; t.he gradi ng if I re member was larg el y in ab out '3 5.

I thin k th e black topping was, as is cu sto mary , a li ttle bit later but that was a go od road for the ti me s and in sp ite of all the crit ic is m th at it has re cei ved , I thin k that the maint enance cost was not exce ssi ve cons ide ri ng th e amount of traf fic th at that ro ad car ri ed .

An d , the th ing that my honou rable fri end mu st re mem.ber and I'm sure his engin e ers will bea r th is out , that you mu st be aware that we in th is Province have }Br haps one of the wo rst co m bin atio ns that any Provin ce , pe rh aps th e wo rst , that any Province has to face anywhere or any sta te , be caus e of th e fa ct that so far as bla ck top is concerned or the bi tuminous mat sur face , we face th e two haza rds that , that kind of a surfa ce has to meet more than, cer tainly more than is general and mo re th an, I think , any other Pro vince be caus e the two gr eat hazards are mo ist ur e and frost .

And when you get them in co mb inat io n as we have had in rec ent years , th en th e blA ck top surf ace , th e bi tuminous mat wi ll si mply not st and against a co mb inat ion of exc essi ve mo isture as we hav e had for many years and· then heavy frost ·as we ll . I th ink th ere is not anot her Pl:'ovince that fa ces th at as gr eatl y as Manit oba be caus e Sask at ch ewan that has equally se vere fr osts does not have in gene ral the amount of mo is ture that we have . T ha t was the majo r pr oble m of old number 1, and it was, as I sai d bef ore , a good road for the ti me s that it was built in .

And the more re cen t devel opmen t of tak ing more land , wi deni ng the dit ches out and ke eping the mo isture away fro m the shou lders of the road ha s been a develop me nt th at has been ver y usef ul but even yet , and this is the recen t deve lop ment , it to ok the en.q;ineers quite a while to arr ive at this be caus e I'm su re that the engine ers fi nd that th ey att end these conf erences and pay attention to the researc h of oth er ju ri sdic t ions but fr equen tl y tho se ju ri sdic t ion do not have the cli mat ic co nd ition s to con ten d wi th th at we have here .

It took quit e a while bef ore this sy ste m was pe rfected and it 's by no means pe rfect yet , of tr yin g to ke ep the mo ist ur e as far as po ss ibl e fro m th e sh ould ers of th e road to pr even t that act ion of the fro st .

But even yet , ev en wit h that dev elonm ent which has been of consider�bl e impo rtan ce , they sti ll reco mmend in this heav y , heavy Re d River Valle y land , they still rec ommend that even ,_,.,ith those heav y black top ro ads and with the wide dit che s and all th is so rt of th ing , that it is still found to be better to put in con crete rathe r th an the black top under tho se con ditio ns .

My re col lect ion is th at it 's not a quest ion , not a que stion of the amount of mone y invo lved be caus e th e real heav y black top, s·t-:.rong road s, as my honour able fr ie nd ca lls th em , I th ink th at you wil l fin d that th e cost �s not gr eatl y less than that of the con cr ete roads . And so I want to say , once aq:ain, that I do not accep t, I was not resp ons ibl e ei th er at that ti me or later dire ctl y , but I do not ' 25

MR. CAM PBEL L (C ont inued ) accep t the cri t ic is m that my honoura ble frien d has been anxious to heap upon th e constr uc ti on of a good many of th ese roads .

Th ey were roads that se rved the pur pose at the ti me and if we had car ri ed on in his time , he was the Mi ni,c;ter not I, if we had carr ie d on the pol ic y that he appe ars to be advocat ing that - that all of the roads sho uld be bu ilt to this hig h , heavy , stron g st andard that he talks about , then we would not have ser ved ver y mu ch of the Prov ince of Ma nito ba with the fund s that we re thou ght to be av ail abl e at that ti me . And my honou rable fr iend can 't do it now , he sti ll will have to have the co mb inat ion of di fferen t ki nds of roads .

I underst and him to say that these are ent irel y tr unk highways that are be ing dealt with now and that a fur ther pr ogra m will be br oug ht in lat er on .

We ll , that 's all to the good but I do su gge st to him th at we sho uld not tr y to close this Coinmittee debate unt il the Hon ourab le �1embers fro m this si de of the Ho use , all th e ones on th is si de of th e Hous e have had the op po rtu nity , each one having a cop y of th e pr o gram that has been laid before us and get the op po rtun it y of disc uss ing the indi vid ual roads in which they are par ti c ul arly inter ested in addit ion to mak ing any co mment that th ey car e to do on th e general po li cy . MR . MI LLER: Mr .

Chairman , I want to make a few obs er va ti ons in con nect ion with the pr op osed pr og ram . I was impress ed \�Vith the many it ems that anpeared, but I may say to o that I was impres se d that so me of the ite ms ·t hat sh ould have app eared , should appear on the pr o gram we re omit ted . The re we re a great many mil li on dol lars which are pr op osed to be spen t , there is no't one dime pr ovided for the "p rovi ng gr ound" of ag ricultu re , namely the const ituenc y of Rhinelan d althoug h the ne ed is ver y gr eat . Mi ll io ns for ever y bod y but not a di�e for Rhinelan d .

I refer parti c ul ar ly to the pe op le li vi ng so uth and al ong Hi ghway No . 12, the y have no ra ilway access to thei r market s. Th ey rel y ent irel y on highway No . 32 . This highway has recen tl y been bui lt , it has been dus t-p roof ed and I su gge st to the Minister that that highway will disap pear unless it ge ts a bi tu minous mat on ver y so on . Now, I realize , Mr . Chairm an , that my honourable fr iend is a gr eat pJ anner . He planned so we ll dur ing the years that he held off ice in con ne ct ion with my co nst itue ncy that in the ten year s we did not have one foot of hard top .

Alt hough he made many sp eech es, there was no hard top. No hard top pr ovi de d, no r3;ood roads pr ovided for the mo st thi ckly po pulat ed ag ric ult ur al cen tre in Manito ba . I .sugge st to him that if he plans as \vell as he did in the past in co nne ct ion wit h Hig hway No . 32, I pr oba bly won 't be in this Ho use to rej oice with him that pr ovis ion has been made for this particular area . I '"'ant to emphasize ag ain that this is an area that req uire s a good heavy roa d be cause the farme rs have to bring the ir pr oduce to market .

Th ey 'r e di ver si fi ed, th ey bring thei r pr od uce to the can nery and everythin g el se, and if there is any area in Manit oba that needs one of those ro ads that he is talki ng about , it is that area to which I refer . I sincer el y ho pe that the Mi niste r will not nlan as we ll in the futu r e as he di d du ri ng the ten years �h at 26

he held off ice . MR . TA NCHAK : I wou ld just li ke to make a few re marks about the constr uct io n in my const itue ncy , that is Em erso n con stit uency . A few years back this const ituenc y di d not ge t a fa ir share , I sho uld say , pr obably the rest of Manit oba or th e �-'!emb ers in th is Hous e, di d not think that Emer son, th at corn er , the sou th-ea st corn er of Manitob a , was wo rth while . But , in re cen t ye ars , es pe ci ally in the last fo ur years , there was quite a bit of con struction in that co rner and I' m ver y grat ef ul for that .

Now, we turn to the re marks of the �iinister of Publ ic Wo rks . I not iced one re mark and I was ver y glad to hear it , th at con str uct ion will be st art ed early next sp ring . We ll , may I re mi nd the Memb ers of the Ho use that it is n' t ever y yea r that we can start cons tr u ctio n early . I know of one inc iden t -i n my co nst itue nc y this last sp ri ng that we we re read y to start a piece of road , the con tra ctors we re re ady to go on it and it was as late as the fi rst of June but th ey co uld not get there on acc ount of road re strict ions .

They co uld not move the ir heav y machiner y and that was as late as June 1st . The traffic would not per mit that but le t's hope that the co ming sp ri ng to all appeara nces it lo oks , it may be dr ier than last year and we may be able to start it ear li er . Ano ther re mark I wou ld li ke to make abou t co ntra cto r s. The con tra ctors �:.rill be able to get busy earl ier . I don 1 t think , as far as I know, to my knowle dge , that th ere was a sh ortag e of contr acto rs . I thin k if th e plans are re ady and th e con tracts are let there are en ough co ntra ctors to pi ck th ese co ntract s up .

Now, another re mark , and that 's one of my favou ri t es, in fact I have a reso lu t ion on it and that 's access roads to to wns and vil lages . I th ink it is a ver y go od th ing . ' Th e Ho nourable th e Minister of Public Wo rks stat esc th at that is in th e po lic y. I do n't know, I never heard of that before th at it was th e pol ic y of the Go vern me nt , the pr es ent Governmen t . To me , I just wo nder when it ha s beco me the po lic y of the Go vern men t . I may be wr ong, it may have been for se veral mont hs or it could have been, maybe , in th e last day or so .

I made a ref erence to it in my Thr one Sp eec h that I wou ld li ke to see that imple me nt ed but I' m ve ry happy that th at is the pol ic y as the Min ister states and I do take his wo rd , I have no reason to dou bt , ver y happy that it is . An d , the re is on e reason that I would li ke to ment ion he re and that is our new sc hool bill th at we have just le gisl ated .

On ac co unt of that I felt that it was my duty to ask for the se access roads bec aus e if we do get the se larger div is ions , larger sc ho ol distr ic ts, we 'l l have to have ro ads and I say that JYianit oba is not read y for that ki nd of, for this ki nd of di vis ion or hig her , larger sc ho ol unit s at th e pr esen t ti me on ac co unt of roads in ru ral are as . The ro ads are just not fi t . Theref ore , this , if it is th e po lic y and I be li eve it is as the Minister has ment ion ed I th ink it 's , we should give credi t to the Minis ter for impl emen t ing the pol ic y in .

Now th e pr op osed highway constr uc ti on in th e Eme rs on const i tuenc y on the out si de looks gr and and , I agree that in certain areas there wi ll be qu ite a bi t of constr uct ion , esp eci ally in the eastern end of Em erson const ituenc y , but I wond er why clai m that s9 me of these ro ads are go ing to be built when they ar e alread y 27

MR . TANCHAK (C ont inued ) con st ruct ed . Take for instan ce , one of th ese ro ads and that is the Red River to Ri dge ville co rner under Morden-Sp rague . I mu st con fe ss that I di dn't exp ect anythi ng to be men t ioned as far as the Morden-S pr ague be cause as the Honourable �iinister st arted off ; he said it , Pr ovi nc ial Trunk Hi ghways. I do not th ink that the l-iorden Sp rague has, it may be alre ady but not to my knowle dge , I don' t know that it has been an ap proved Prov inc ial Tr unk Hi ghway. I un derstood that it will be appr oved so me time this fall .

But , twe lve mile s, 12 . 4 or so mile s, 12 mil es a li ttle over fro m Red River to Ridg eville co rner has been constr ucted this s umm er. l-'loney has been appropriated for it last sp ri ng . It has been constructed and , in fact , I bel ieve that the sh ou ld ers have been se eded in too . I don 't see why - inclu de it in this . I would li ke to have had 12 mil es maybe fro m the 59 go ing east ins tead of rep eat ing this . This has been, this was in the pr og ram last year , this summer .

Now, another road ; the 59 so uth fro m the Morden-Sprag ue so uth to the United States bo undary ; it isn' t quite co mp leted but the con tractors are wo rkin g on it . There are two co ntra ctors on it ri ght now . Well , I do n't see why •• say , of co urse , it will pr ob ably it wil l not be co nstr uct ed, that it wouldn 't be co mpleted this ye ar . But more than half of it is alre ady co mple ted . No w another road ; black surf aci ng if I' m ri ght , maybe I di dn' t cat ch th e roa d , fro m Zhoda Corner to Pi ney .

That has alr eady been black su rfa ced and it was bla ck su rfa ced in July , I th ink . Now, another ro ad th at 1 s men t ioned th ere , fro m So uth Ju nct ion to Sp rague . · Tha t ro ad has been alr eady co nstruct ed . True , it is n't pe rfect yet , it has to be br ought up to better stan dards but , it has been con str ucted and grave lled . Ab out ••• oth er cons truc tion here from the Ridg eville Co rner to the 59, nothin g has been ment ioned abou t this in the past . That will be new con str uct ion . Fro m Middlebo ro , or fro m Sprag ue to �·1id dleboro , that will be ne'"' co nstr u ction .

And all the rest that have been ment io ned are new constr uc t ion . But , I would n 't li ke the he mbers to be mi sled he re into thin k ing that so me of these are go ing to be construc ted . I'm sure that the Mini ster di dn 1 t mean to mislea d the V;:;mbers .here , only I would li ke to dra w atten t ion to that . I will be co mi ng to the Ntinis ter , plead ing for so me more wo rk on sec ondary roads in th e near fut ure or in the sp r ing .

I' m certa inly thankful for what he has see n to , to give out to Em erson const ituenc y and I' m sur e that the pe op le of my constitu enc y will be thankful too . Th ere is one more que st ion that I would li ke - is it rig ht that we will have th at Morden-Sp rague an approved highway and how far will that exten d? I und erstood it was to Vita this year and , mayb e, farther on next ye ar . Or , will it be ri ght from Red Ri ver to Pine y Corner ap proved as a highway'? That 1 s one of my questi ons . I thank you • . MR. SHUTTL EWORTH : Mr .

Chairman, I wo uld just li ke to make a few co mment s on this pr ogram and I certain ly re-ec ho what ha s been sai d here this aft er noon v1hen we hav en' t the detai l s of the pr og ram ahead of us , it is ver y di ffic ult to make any co mme nt s on it . He we re on ly able to ••• (i nt er jec ti on ) ••• ye s, maybe yo u'd bett er answe r so me of them . 28

MR. SHUTTL EWORTH (C ont inued ) An yway, 1'-lr. Cha irman, as T was sayin g it 's not po ssi ble for to go th r o�gh the pr og ram the way we have to and I ce rta inly thin k , Si r, on a $35, 000, 000 .0 0 pr ogram, surel y we sho uld have the op port unity in th e next day or so to gi ve this pro gram a go od go ing over be cause it is a big pro gram inde ed . But , I th ink what is rea lly interest ing here this afte rnoon , Hr . Chairman, is the fa ct that we 'r e sort of on the tai l end of what has been in effe ct , a big publ ic ity campa ign .

This road pr o gram was first announ ced at a Conser va ti ve con vent ion in this Ci ty so me days ag o. I do n't know whether the deta ils of it we re given at that ti me , I did n' t ge t an invitation to the co nv ention . But , then along co mes the road pro gram to day with mu ch fanfare and when you look at the pr o gram , what is it . A con t inui ng road pr ogram such as has been an nou nced in the Ho use in the reg ular sessi on for so me ti me , Sir .

And now we have the ri dic ulous si tu at ion of the Pr ess hav ing been handed deta ils of it an d the Memb ers on this si de of the Hous e haven 't got it yet i And I th ink , Sir , if the we lf are of Go vern ment was concerned in the first place , the pr og ram sh ould have been annou nced to th e Ho use , the J.Vtembers sh ould have been given copi es of it and then the Pr ess should have been gi ven co pie s of it and we would have been we ll along our way ., It certain ly , Si r, been handled to me , instead of planning for fut ure highways , it 's been planned for publ ic ity .

And po ssi bly , can be carried throug h that way and th ey may get so me ben e fit out of it . I bel ieve th at I di d not ice in the pr og ram that on the , in the constr u ction of No . 10 hig hway no th ing has been allocated for that stretch immediat ely north of Brandon . The re has been an area there bet wee n Br andon and the Ri di ng Eoun tain - Mount ain Nati on al Park , that has bee� - be ing constructed in th e last fe w years and I th ink , Si r, if it 's a planned pr og ram that there sh ould have been so met hing started betw een Br andon and Ivlinnedosa du ri ng this cu rren t · year .

Th en, I bel ieve I ca ught one ite m, one ite m. And , this is an interesti ng one on Hig hway 24 , and that was a br idge . And , hr . Chairman , that br idge was in last year 's pr og ram .

I wo nder why it wasn 't bu ilt dur ing the cu rren t sessi on but , pos si bly , th e Honour able Me mber for Hamiota ,.vill see to it that it wil l be bu ilt this co min g year be caus e when I was the Memb er for that co nst itue nc y I urged for two or three years that that br idge be dea lt wit h and I thin k it should have been dealt with at this cu rren t , dur ing this year or po ss ibly con stru ction can be start ed dur ing the wi nter months . But th e thi ng that re ally interested me , Mr .

Chairman, abou t this pe rfor mance th at was put upon •• al ong here this after noon , which sor t of culm inated , th ou ght we we re going to co me in here with a road pro gram and have the Members of the Legislat ur e clea n it up in a mat ter of a few minutes . I thin k there was mor e publ ici ty th an planning beh ind all of this ••• • MR . JOB IN : Hr .

Chairman, I'v e just had an op po rtun ity of go ing th rough the pr o gram here and as it per ta ins , at least part of it , to my for mer const it uenc y but now pe rta ins to th e Honourable the Minister of Publ ic Util iti es, I'd say this to th e Minister of 29

�ffi. JOBIN ( Con tin ue

d) Public Vlorks , do that parti cul ar wo rk and I cong ratul ate you on undertaki ng it . But , I woul d ask this House to bear with me fo r a minut e while I ex plain the si tuat ion . Any of yo u that have been up north fr om The Pas , fro m the Mafek ing to Th e Pas , would rea lize th at it is a di stance of lOO miles and I sugge st to th e Mi nister of Publ ic Wo rks that it �s a physic al impo ss ibi l ity to carr y out what you int end to do next yea r . If you ca n do it - more powe r to you , and I'l l be the first one to co ngratulate you at th e end of the ye art Mr .

Cha irman, there are no det our roads in the area . You have lOO mi les of bo g, swamp , roc k and yet the Minister of Public Wo rks is go ing to , I woul dn 't mi nd if he had said "g rade" but he sai d "g rade and grave l" and before you put gr avel on, I, not knowi ng too mu ch about road constru ct ion , ass ume that yo u'r e go ing to ge t yo ur grade on fi rst . And , if the Honou rable Member , the Honou rable Mini ster th inks that he can grade 100 miles of the road bet ween JYlafek ing and The Pas in one year - mo re power to hi m .

I W01lld sugge st as \'l!ell and I wo uld li ke to see and I, not only woul ·d I li ke to see , but · if I was wi thin my ri ghts , I would li ke to make a clai m to hav e tabl ed the engin eer ing di:ita on that hundred mile s. Do they know yet whether th ey are goin g to by-p ass the bog ? Are th ey go ing thr ough the bog ? I'd su gge st that th e Mini ster has ne ith er the �oney nor has , nor hav e the co ntra cto rs , bearin g in min d the other pro gram in Manitoba , th e mach inery to do what he tells us he 's go ing to do on lOO miles stret ch of road in northern Manitoba . I sugge st then, Mr .

Chairman, that this is pure unadu lt erated windo w-dre ss ing and bunku m l He talks ab out planning .

And I used to th ink th at he knew so me th ing about planning, but nobod y in the ir rig ht min d ha s pl anned a hundred mi les of constr uct ion, gr ad ing and grav elli ng fro m the t-lafek ing to The Pas , and I sug gest if this is an ex ample of th e. ef fic ie ncy of the Minis ter and his planning on lOO mil es in my area that I' m famili ar with and that I know , then I su gge st that if this is an exampl e of it , then we certai nly sh ould sc rut ini ze the planning and exp en diture of th is other $33 , 000 , 000 .0 0 . MR . CORBE TT : Mr .

Chairman , I used to th ink I know a li ttle about roads and he sp eaks of th e impo ss ibi l ity of build ing lOO miles of ro ad in one season . We built lOO mi les of road there in the old day s of a sort ••• !IIR. JOBIN : What ki nd of roads di d yo u th ink you we re buy ing? You built the poor roads , now we 'r e ta lki ng ab out go od roads . MR . CO RBETT : Just a minute , just a min ute .

They were go od roads in their day and they 'v e done their pur po se but ••• ( inter ject ion ) ••• but , wh en yo u say it 's impo ssi ble to bu ild that, that -- you s ay is bunkum , I say yo ur re marks are bunkum be cause we have pra ctic ally an unl imited number of con tra ctors th at we r e cool ing their heels all th is summe r be cause there was no wo rk fo r th em . And lOO miles now with modern mac hiner y wit h ••••• JvlR. JOBIN : \vith no deto urs? 30

MR. COR BET T : Will , will - - is no diffic ul ty to build at all . MR .J OBIN : I said , !vir . Sp eak er , or �'lr. Chairman , and I'l l rep eat , that if th e Mini ster bu ilds that lOO miles of road thi s co ming year , graded and gravel le d, I'l l take my hat off to him and I'l l say he 1s the great est man in th e wor ld , but I say here and now that he ca n't do an d he wo n 't do it . MR . WI LLIS : Take yo ur hat off , take yo ur hat off . MR . CMlPBELL : Mr . Chairman, ask one po int , one quest ion now. When are we go ing to have the copies of th e pr og ram? MR .

WIL LIS : They 'r e wo rking on them now . MR . CAMPBE LL : But , th ose do not take lo ng to ru n throu gh this machine . Are th ey not read y for distri but io n now? MR .WIL LIS : It is highly po ssi ble we may have th em this evenin g . We told them to ru n th em as quic kly as pos si ble . MR . WAG NER : Mr . Chairman, I see th a,t ever ybod y is hammeri ng for the road

part i cularl y the se pe op le , Honou rable Mem bers - I' m so rry - on the ext re me rig ht . A MEl\'lBER: We sure are . MR . WAGN ER : I' m, first th ing of all I wo uld want to co mme nd the Mi nister for announc ing this highway pr og ram and he men t ioned also th at whE:ln the highways are go ing to be built he will take the water away fro m these highways. Th at is a ver y step, a ver y go od step for ward be caus e in the past ,

part ic ularl y , I'm not goin g to sp eak in th e whole Province of Manit oba . I di dn't travel too mu ch . But partic ularl y in Fish er co nst itue ncy the farme rs are co mpla ining . They we re read y to sue the Govern me nt for dra ining th e water fro m the highways ont o thei r land and I hop e , Mr . Horiourable Minist er , that yo u wou ld n 't drain the water onto the farm land but it will be take n away into a lake or a ri ver or where it may make no damage to the farmer .

But al so , I am a little bit we ary and dis appo inted that in Fis her const itu ency as I stated in the past , th at it ha s been negle cted . I see ac cordin g to th e sk et ch , di dn't read it clos ely , but I'm gett ing only 11 mil es of the high\vay . We ll , that are as, as so me Honou rable memb er to my ri ght sta ted, that if the sc hool division come s in , that wi ll never wo rk . Be caus e there is hardl y any roa ds . It 's just impossi b le .

And , I bel ieve if I unders too d the Honourable Mini ster corre ct ly , that this is only a sh ort and a small road pro gram whic h is .••••• on to the tr unk hi ghway and I am lo oki ng for ward , ho ping th at in sp ri ngt ime or the next sess ion that is co mi ng, or wi ll be , or I hope , or whate ver you may cal l , loo ki ng for ward at least co mpl et ing the ro ad, the highway fro n Br oad Valle y to Hodg son, be caus e the pe op le to ok it for grant ed that th ey , it 's go ing to be co mplete d in sp ri ng .

The hig hway goin g east fro m Fi sher Br anch to Vita , they too k it for grant ed be caus e th ey have been pr omised in the pas t, 31

MR . WAGN�R (C ont inu ed ) and the Ash ern ro ad fro m Hodgs on, fro m Ash ern to Hodgs on be co m pleted also be caus e th ey took, su rel y , for granted , I thin k they we re pr omised even def init ely by so me Honou rable Min isters fro m the past th at this 1959 will be co mp leted . So I pl ead on beh alf of the pe op le in Fish er const itue ncy that this wo uld be done and ma ny others .

Part icularly , we are dis cus s ing it ri ght now is the tru nk highway. I would li l<'e to curb myself but at th e same ti me , .Mr. Chairman , with yo ur pe rm issi on and the Hou se , I would pref er , myself; a li ttle bi t of si de road be caus e if we haven 't got th e side roads the highway do es not ser ve the purp ose . MR. HI LLHOUSE: Mr . Cha irman, I re alize in con ne ct ion with P.T .H. No . 8, which is now under con str uct ion , th at pe rhaps it is not pra ct ical to st art the mod erni za t ion of P. T .H.

No . 9 fro m Sel kirk North to Winnipeg Be ach, but I would li ke to have the as sura nce of the Mi nister that th ose 20 mil es will be under taken as so on as P.T.H. No . 8 is co mp leted . Now, P.T.H. No . 9 fro m Selki rk north to Winnipeg Be ach is one of the mo st pat ched-ub pi eces of highway in the Province of Manit oba , but that hi ghway \vas not co n str ucted by th e Prov inc e of Manitoba ; that highway was constr ucte d by the late R.B. Bennett as a rel ief pr ojec t and the co ntra ctor sh oul d have been sued for gr oss negl igence in th e constr u ction .

As a mat ter of fact , I was solic ito r for St . Andr ews Munic ip ality after that roa d was constr ucted and the first year after wards we we re sub mi tted a bill for maint en ance which pr ett y ne arly amount ed to a capital ex penditur� . Then we had the Pr ovince of Manitoba take it over as a Pr ovincial Trunk Hi ghway but th at highway is a very mu ch used highway • ••• (I nt er jecti on ) ••• Oh, I forget th e exact year . Aban doned? By Whom? It was a mun icip al highway up unt il the time we had this quarr el with th e powe rs that be as to who shoul d ma intain it , and it was ••••• MR .

WILLIS : When was this abando ned? MR. HIL LHOUSE : Which Go vern me nt ? MR . WI LLIS : Yo ur Go vern men t • .!VIR. HIL LHOUSE : We never abandoned it . MR . WI LLIS : You di d . MR. HI LLHOUSE : No , we just patc hed it . We just pat ched it . The highway was never properl y cons tr uc ted in th e first pl ace . MR . WILLIS : abandoning it . Yo u abandoned it and pass ed an Order- in-Cou ncil MR . HIL LHOUSE : We ll , I never saw the Ord er- in-Cou ncil , and I have never seen the P.T.H .

No . 9 si gns taken do wn fro m it , •••• (I nter jec ti on ) ••• and I have always as sumed that it was a Provin ci al Trunk Hi ghway, and I th ink it has be en, R Pro vinc ial Trunk Hig hway si nce it was const ru cted by the Bennett Gove rnment . 3 2

MR. WIL LIS : It was, but last year it was no lon ge r·. MR . HI LLHOUSE : No lo nger a Provinc ia l Trunk Hi ghway? MR. WILLIS : Th at 's tr ue , the upp e r end. MR. HI LLHOUSE : Which end? MR . WILLIS : The north end . MR . HI LLHOUSE : Fro m Se lkirk to Winnip eg Bea ch? MR . WILLIS : No , nor th fro m there . MR. HILLH OUSE : Oh, I' m not inte rested in th at part nort h - I am interested in the

part in my own const ituenc y . But yo u' re sp endin g money on it north of there now . MR . WILL IS : We had to . MR . HILLHOUSE : No , we put down a bi tumi nous mat last summe r - it was incl ud ed in last yea r' s esti mates •.

But I would li ke the assu ranc e of the Mini ster that just as so o n as No . $ is co mp leted , that wo rk will be co mme nced on No . 9, be caus e I wi sh to as sure the Mi nister if that work is not co mmenced as so on as No . 8 is co m pleted , that th is Province will have to fu rn ish a helicop ter ser vice bet wee n the north -limits of the To wn of Sel ki rk _and th e south limit s of Winnipeg Bea ch . MR . WI LLIS : I agree with you . MR . SC HREYE R: Mr . Cha irman, I would li ke to draw the Ho nourable Mini ster 's atten ti on to the eig hth ite m on th e fou rth page of th is sc hedu le .

I not ice th at it ca lls for the se al coat ing of 53 . 4 mil es of P.T. H. No . 22 . It is listed here as No . 40 to Vict ori a Be ach . Now, that road was se al coated last year and of co urs e, alt hough it was sea l coated last year , there was a co ns ider able amount of patc hing go ing on that same year , and I wonde r if the Hon ourabl e Minis ter me ans that they are go ing to re-do the co mplete road , or resea l coat it . MR . ROBE RTS : I direct a que stion, l'-lr. Chair man, to the Mini ster of Agr ic ultu re .

I no te , as the others do , or at least so me of us , that there is a - 1-'dni st er of Publ ic Wor ks , pardon me - that th ere is a definite lack of ro adwork in my const ituenc y , the consti tuenc y of La Ver endr ye , but I accep t the answer th at it called for wo rk on Pr ov inc ial Tr unk Hi ghways only and that these oth er roads that are so badly in ne ed of co nstr uct ion are not co n si dered Provi nci al Trunk Hi ghways at the pre se nt ti me . But there is one thin g in

part icular that I would - li ke to ask

part ic ula rly of the Min ister of Public Wor ks , and that is th is : That at th e last Sess ion of th e Legisla ture th ere was an appr op ri at ion voted for th e sum of :;noo, 000 . oo· for the con str uct ion of th e br id ge at Ste . Ag athe and there was a further bi ll passe d pr ovid ing for the sum of $1 00 , 000 .0 0 to be raised by the Municipal ity of Rit chot , 33

lvlR. P,CB ER TS (C ont inued ) which the munic ipality is pr ep ared to do to wards th e con st ru cti on of a br idge at Ste . Ag athe , and the pe op le at St e . Aga the have been given to understa nd that tl)e br idge , or that the work \vould co mme nce on th e br idge this winter . I wo uld li ke to ask v.rhy this is not in the esti mat e. MR. GR� EN LAY : It see ms to me , as we si t here and loo k over \ th is pro gram that has been pre se nt ed that there are two or three ver y interest ing po int s that co me out of it .

I had the op portunity , while th e Honourable 1'-Unister was go ing over his new pr og ram , of follo wing over the last year 's pr og ram, and I fin d that in so me SO instanc es at least - I wasn 't able to ke ep up with all of th em and iden t ify them - in at least SO instance s, th e loc e::t io ns are the same as what was on the pr o gram last year . And in those ca ses , I am re ady to admit that th ey are ca rry ing on pr obab ly the pr og ram that was started then .

I th ink that is as it sh ould be ; I thin k it is fine , but I think again it 's anoth er illust .ration of the Conser vat ive Party carrying on th e pr og ram which was 's et in mo ti on by the Li beral Go vern men t before , and I am wonde ri ng , Mr . Chairman , what 's go ing to happen when that impetus th at was started and has bee n ca rried on, runs do wn wit h th e party �cross the way .

I wo nder where they will go then • •••• (I nt er jec ti on ) •••• The planning that they speak of is no t in si ght as yet and it see ms to me that they are just carr y ing ou t the thing s , in a gr eat many instances - not only the roa d pr og ram - the- pr ogra m and the works that were put in mo ti on by the Govern men t that pr ec eded them . Mr .

Chairman, I know that last year the then Minister of Publ ic Works disc u ssed, I bel ieve in this Hous e, the fact that he was atte mpt ing to have the work so arra nged th at a nu mb er of the se pr el iminary su rvey s and engine er ing wo rks on the pr op os ed pr o gram for 'S 9-160 would be carried out dur ing the s umm er and fall -- this summer and this fall -- in order th at this ver y same sor t of syste m could be se t up, that the lett ing of con tr acts co uld be advan ced to an earlier date . An d , Mr .

Chairman, I am not too impres se d '"'ith the fact that that has now been th ou ght out' and pr esen ted to us as the ver y gr eat Cons ervative pro gram . Mr . Sp eak er , th e on e th ing that I do - or Mr . Chairman � the one th ing that I do sort of take exception to , of cou rse , is the fact tha t -- we ll, I do n't know maybe so me mo re of this str eaml in ing that we have and I was ac cus ed th e other day of making so me ver y si lly st ate men ts but I th ink we hav e evidence again of this str eamli ni ng .

I th ink the pr oble m with reg ard to this ro ad pr o gram , th e first thin g we know the y'l l be put ti ng the blac k top on before they get the gr ade in .

It wi ll be strea ml ining it so that , hurry ing it up and st reaml ining it . · Here we have this pr o gram broug ht into th e House this aft er noon and wit h no state men t , no detai l , pr ese nt ed to the Members so that th ey cou ld prop erl y cons ider th e various ite ms and th e whole pro gram and exp e ct it to be rush e d thro ugh strea ml ined , shove it through , do esn 't matter about th e 1'-iembe rs, gi ve it to the news papers , give it to th e pu bl ic , give it to th e Cons er va ti ve Con ven t ion, never mind abou t th e Members , Mr .

Cha irman ; they , aft er all , they just do n' t co unt . And Jl�r . Chairman, I 34

MR . GRE EN LAY ( Con t inued ) th ink that is one of the thin gs that sho uldn 't be done . I th ink that when a pro gram of this nature is go ing to be pr es en ted , it should be pr esented to the Members of this Hou se . Af ter all , not on ly the Members on th e oth er si de of the Ho use rep res ent the pe op le of Manito ba , but the Members on this si de of th e Hous e also repres ent the pe op le of Manitob a , and I th ink th�t when we are sl ight ed li ke that , it is a slig ht to th e pe op le of our const it uenc ies . �lr .

Chairman, I thin k that before we co uld give prop er cons ider at ion to this whole pro gram , we mu st have the det ails before us and have so me time so th at we can prop er ly stu dy it . This is a tre me ndous pr og ram , certa inly it 's be ing added on to the pr o gram which was set up by the pr evious Govern me nt , but I th ink that we should look we ll to it beca us e I th ink the po int of th e Honourable Member fro m Fli n Flon is well tak en, that if you are go ing to take lOO mi les of the one and only road , the one and only means of ac cess into that

part icular part of the Pr ovin ce , and te ar it up suf ficien tl y to build in that ki nd of soil - in that ki nd of co unt ry , to build up a new ro ad, there 's not go ing to be mu ch tr aff ic on it and there isn' t any det our , so that I thi nk if that , as the Hon ourable !11ember fro m Fli n Flon has said , if that 's the typ e of pl anning , we had better take a go od lo ok at the whole pro gram , each and ever y indiv idua l ite m on it . 3 5

MR . CA RROLL (T he Pa s) : Mr . Chair man, I wa s ce rta in ly very pleased to hear the re mark s that the Hono urab le Me mher fro m Po r tag e la Pr ai rie has .iust ma de about #10 hi ghway . I am .iust wo nd er in g how he an d the ho nour abl e memb er from Flin Flon wi ll rec on cile th eir att itude an d their statem en t s in the Ho11 se this af t ern oon wi th their ca mPA ig n promi ses of a fe w mo nt hs ag o. Be cause I recall ver y cl early th at the promi se for #10 ht e:hway wa s that it would be black- too ued bv 19 60 .

Now, he also mA de on e ot her sugge stion there , that we wn uld be black- top pin g before get ti ng grad in g, an d I thin k th at if that is their fe eli ng as to how th is thi ng wo uld have to be hA nrlled, I su gge st , Sir , th at that wou ld ha ve been their att it ude to ward #10 . That is th e on ly way it co uld po ss iblv be do ne by 1960 , woul d be to bl ac k-top over wha t we now ha ve , if th ey are co rrect in as sumi ng th At #10 ca nnot be bu ilt in one ye ar .

An d for the ho nou ra bl e memb er :from Rh: i.n ela nd, I would lik e to offer my con dolen ces an d sugge st that our go od fr ien d from Ch urchi ll also ha s no t 10 cen ts spe nt in hi s con stitue ncY , Sir . Mr . HRYH ORC ZUK (E th e lber t Pl ain s) : Mr . Cha ir man, it would ap pear at the momen t th at all the cr it icis m tha t ha s been lev ell ed at the Gove rnme nt this af t ern oon is just ified . Th ere ma y be ex pla nat ion s , there mav be an swers to co me of it .

There is on ly on e qu estion I would lik e to out to the Ho nour abl e Mi n is te r , an d that is, what pR rcen tag e , if an v, is in the $33,0 00 ,0 00 .0 0 th at we 'r e talkin g ab out , or wha t part of it wa s aPProp riated for th e cu rre nt yen r1 s ex nen ditu res . MR . PE TER S (E lmwood ): in my con st it uen cy but the th e Di sr aeli Bridg e , ma ybe on the appr oac hes . Jl.·1r . Ch a ir man, I don 1 t have an y road s Go vern mRn t is bu ildin g a bri dge there , they co uld spe nt a little bit of mo ne y MR .

LUCKO (S pr in gfiel d ): A que st ion to be an swered are - I 1 ve got the stat eme nt he re in the Pre ss , says ''Bea use jo ur-Lo ckport Ro ad Wo rk St art s'' an d then says "Hon oura bl e Errick Wi lJ is , Publ ic Wo rks t-1in is te r , ha s announc ed Mon day hi s de oartmen t hn s started con st ruc tion of fo ur lan e hi ghwa y eas t fro m Lo cvoor t to the po in t just out side of Bea use. iour ." Now my que stion is this . I'l l go a litt le bit furthe r, would n't be "hear , hear" , wh en I ge t thro ugh wi th it .

Mv que stion is this - is it a four lan e hi ghwa v•, or is it a 24 foot black-too an d the shoul der? That 's my que st ion, wh ether it 's a fo ur la ne black-top tr avel lin g sp a ce , or is it a 24 foot bl ack-top an d sho ulders? MR . WI LLIS: Mr . Speaker - t-1r. Ch air man, I hope the mem bers wo n' t con de mn me for not readin g mv speech . - Th a nk you , I'l l be over to you in a mi nut e. (Inte r.ie ctio n) . The Hon ou rable mem ber for Ra diss on ha s as kerl as to wh et her mu ch of th e pro gram is a con ti nuat ion .

Ce rt a in ly in ma ny cases it is a con t.in uat ion an d mu st ab iiTays be , I th i nk , a con tin uat ion . He asks abou t rai lway cro ssin g sig na ls - we ha ve anpl ie d for se veral more , we would li ke to get many mn re - we 1r e happ v th at the Govern me nt h,qs en l Ar ged it. s Po licy an d we wi ll be as l<in e· for mo re help in reg ard to rai lway cr nss in gs beca use ma ny are badl y ne eded . The 36

Mr . WILLI S (c on tin ued ) Hon ourable Member sai d th "lt Saskatche wan has a bett er basis in reg ard to th eir !-';rid syst em . Before I lef t here in 19 50 we had al re adv put in a !-';rid syste m here and while he says th �y have a bett er bas is, I hope he would be kin d en ough. to say th at they haven' t got bett er roads th ough ; al tho ugh th ey hav.e been coming up very quic kly . Sask atche1..ran must get hig h ma rk s beca use that Pr ovince was th e first on e to f1 nish the Tr::�ns- Ca:nada hi ghway in Can ada , and th �refore they deser ve a basis for it .

As a m� tter of fact , the grid svste m which they have in Sask atch ewan, they were do1lll 'n here in 19 4.9 tn di scuss with us our syst em and it is lik ely patt ern ed on th at sys t em because we have ag rid syst em for every muni ci pality in the pravi nce of Manit oba and had it before I lef t here � (I nte r .iecti on) • We have both proce eded , both Sas kat che wan and here and I know the Min is ter very well and I know th eir proble ms as well . · In reg ards to sig ns , ce rta in J y we are go in g to have in crease d sig ns , ce rt ain ly we need more cen tre st ri ps , and as far as wi ndow dr ess in .,. is con cern ed , I am comul et ely in nocen t of a·ny wi ndow dressin g that we have don e in re gards to thi s matt er .

I must sRy to the Hon ourable Members op po sit e, th ough they have prot es ted to hig h heaven to day in reg ards tn the way: in which this is don e , th at I, the MiniAt er , for ten year s in succes si on did it ex actly th e same as it is be in g do ne to day , with out any change . An d there was no crit icis m. Today , because we do it in .the · same wav, then thi s is wi ndo•JI! dre ssin g, sudd en lv , because we have do ne it and not their Govern me nt . In reg ard to the member for Ro(ikwood , who spoke about th e access roads . Ye s, they wi ll be bui lt qf same quali ty .

We can't al ways build them 10 or 15 mi les - it 's . a ques t ion of prox imit y in reg ard to it but there is on e other que stion you had ther e , th at th i s was the policy of last Session ? .N o. MR . BEN D (R ock wood-Iberv ille ): The quest ion was, how much of thi s prog ram ha s al read y be en compl et ed? An d the third questi on; how much, if an y, of this uro gram had been pravid ed fo r at the · last Session ? · . MR . WILLI S: To the bes t of my kn owle dge no ne had been provid ed for at th e las t reg ular Sessi on.

As far as we. are cnn cern ed , to the bes t of my kn owle dge again, we have on ly c.omplete d on e road --acce ss road , and th at is the on e in to Carbe rry . We have pla nned many others and we have ·many th at are not on the urog ram to day whic h wi.ll be built , but in ge neral and it wi ll have to be grc:tdually , we wj_ll comple t e th at pro gram to the best of our abi lity , buildin g access ro ads in to nearb�r tn wns from hi ghways with the same quality of roads that the hi ghway is it se lf . MR . BEN D : Mr .

Chair man, I. won der if the Min ister would let me cl arif y .; I thin k he hl'l s mi sin ter pret ed . The access road was a se parate ques tion by it self - No . 1. An d then the other tw o question s deal t with the overall prog ram--- how much of this pro gram, if an y, was campl et ed now ; how much of it was provided for in last year 's esti mate? · 3 7

MR . WIL LIS: I am glad to have that que sti on. No ne of th e or es en t pro pram wa s nla nned orevio us1 v - th is is all a dis t in ct an d se pa rate o�o pram .

The pro pram of the nrevious Govern me nt is ora ct icall y i co mplet ely co mol eted fnr the year beca use we have had an ex cellen t year , an d we h�ve of co u rse , in man y cases jus t con tin ued on, on the same roads an d bu ilt mo re of the sa me hi �h way, an d that is pa rt of the road ce rtai nly , an d the con tin uat ion of tho se roads � .. vas rather a si rnole ma tter , if on e may sav sn , tha t you bu ild it in a ce rt ain len gth of ti me , we ll , na tura lly , you con tin ue :lt un t il the en d of the road . Tha t is wh at is bein g don e , an d th at 's not new or di ffer en t .

It is �ust na tura l, an d cer tain ly an y Govern me nt vmuld do th e sa me thin g in that reg ard . (In ter. iection) Ye ah , I know. (Interjection) That is wh at I'm tr y in g to r:ive you . The me mber for Flin Flan asks a que st ion in his fi rs t soeech . I liked it be tter than th e secon d on e . In hi s first spe ech he wa s asJ ... ing for in for mation in reg ard to th e lo we st bid der . I wa s here so met ime an d cturing t e n yea rs , no on e hut th e lowe st bid der go t the con tr act at an y ti me .

It is tr ue th at in some orov i nc es th at is not th e case ; it is tr ue th at ar� men t s can be ad va nc ed con tr arv to that an d if I had a half ho ur I mig ht speak on it , hut in ge neral we have not don e it in the past .

In ge ne ra l there is so methi ng tn he said for , in so JTle cases not al ways grfl. nt i n�o-,. it to th e lo we st bi dd er , in vi ew of the fact that in so me cases it would hrin P" emp loy me nt to Ma nit oba an d in so me case yo u'l l get bri dg e s wh ich are fabr ic at ed he�e but so far there hn.s been no action an d al v-rays , as far as my te nu re of of fice is con cern ed , th e pA st an d the or esen t , no co nt ract hA s been let to an yb ody but the lo we st bidd er . VR . JOBIN (F lin Flan) : Wou ld you per mi t a qu es t ion, please Ho no urable Min ist er? MR . WI LLIS: Yes . MR .

JOB IN: I'm si tt in g here wa nt in g tn wr ite a reolv tn that qu es tion, an d wh ile vou 1v e sne nt three mi nut es you hav en't said wh ether you are go in g tn adhe re to the sa me po lic y or ch a nge it . It is either yes or nn . MR . WI LLIS: I th ou ght the in di cat ion th at 1t..re had never don e other wise wa s an ad heren ce to that po li.c y, I 'm sorry l MR . JOR IN: Fr om here on in, are vou go in g to adh ere to th at oolicy ? MR . WIL LIS: It has not --- we ha ve made no pJans tn de part fro m it . MR . JOB IN: Th at 1 s not the qu es t ion, Mr . Cha ir man.

I 'm as k in g a sim ple qu estion. Are the y go in f'." tn ad here tn a for me r ool icy or cha nf'."e

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	25-1-10a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	25th 1st hansardpdf 10a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	40e3d1b4277dbc83a976ae0dfc9e137e6571c712

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).